Title Estimates - Senate Committees - Reports - Together with Hansard record of proceedings - Committees A, B, C, D, E and F on Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for year - 1978-79
Source Senate
Date 10-05-1979
Parliament No. 31
Tabled in Senate 10-05-1979
Parliamentary Paper Year 1979
Parliamentary Paper No. 74
System Id publications/tabledpapers/HPP052016005716


Estimates - Senate Committees - Reports - Together with Hansard record of proceedings - Committees A, B, C, D, E and F on Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for year - 1978-79

The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

ttl,

. SENATE FSTIMATES COMMI'ITEES A, B; C, D, E and F

Reports to· the Senate on Departmental 4dditional Estimates 1978-79

May1979

llroUiht up and ordered to be printed 10 May 1979

ParBameotary-Paper No. 74/1979

Parliamentary Paper No. 74/1979

The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, E and F

· Reports to the Senate on Departmental Additional Estimates 1978-79

May 1979

The Commonwealth Government Printer Canberra 1979

© Commonwealth of Australia 1979

Printed by C. J. THOMPSON, Commonwealth Government Printer, Canberra

CONTENTS

Page

I. Resolution of the Senate 1

2. Estimates Committee A-Report 5

Minutes of Proceedings 1979-7 May 1979 9

3. Estimates Committee B-Report 17

Minutes of Proceedings 1979-7 May 1979 23

9 May 1979 27

4. Estimates Committee C-Report 31

Minutes of Proceedings 1979-5 April 1979 35

4 May 1979 36

9 May 1979 40

5. Estimates Committee D-Report 43

Minutes of Proceedings 1979-3 May 1979 47

6. Estimates Committee E-Report 53

Minutes of Proceedings 1979-3 May 1979 57

9 May 1979 62

7. Estimates Committee F-Report 65

Minutes of Proceedings 1979-3 May 1979 71

4 May 1979 75

8 May 1979 77

25020/79-2

RESOLUTION OF THE SENATE PASSED 5 APRIL 1979

PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79'----PAPERS: The Minister for Education (Senator Carrick), by Command of His Excellency the Governor-General, laid upon the Table the following Papers: Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year

Ending on 30 June 1979. Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979.

Reference to Estimates Committees: Senator Carrick, by leave, moved-( 1) That the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30

June 1979 be referred herewith to Estimates Committees for examination and report.

(2) That the Committees consider the Proposed Additional Expenditure in relation to Departments, as follows: Estimates Committee A Education

Parliament Prime Minister and Cabinet Treasury Foreign Affairs Estimates Committee B

Attorney-General's Trade and Resources Industrial Relations Employment and Youth Affairs Special Trade Representative Estimates Committee C

Social Security Finance Health Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

Veterans' Affairs Estimates Committee D Science and the Environment Primary Industry

Home Affairs Capital Territory Housing and Construction Estimates Committee E

Aboriginal Affairs Industry and Commerce Transport Administrative Services

Productivity

Estimates Committee F Defence National Development Business and Consumer Affairs Postal and Telecommunications

(3) That the Committees report to the Senate on or before Thursday, 10 May 1979.

Question-put and passed.

2

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee A has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 5 April 1979, the Senate referred to the Committee the Additional Estimates for 1978-79 relating to the following Departments: Parliament Education

Prime Minister and Cabinet Treasury Foreign Affairs

2. The Committee considered the Estimates and received explanations from the President of the Senate (in relation to the Parliamentary Departments), the Minister for Education, the Minister for Science and the Environment and officers of the Departments. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard

report of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the Senate's con­ sideration of Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1978-79 and Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1978-79.

3. Written replies to questions are awaited and, on receipt, will be distributed to members of the Committee and, where appropriate, to other Senators who participated in the Committee's examination. The replies will also be incorporated in the Committee Hansard.

4. The Committee wishes to draw attention to the following matter: Hansard Staff During the Committee's examination of the Department of the Parliamen­ tary Reporting Staff the suggestion was made that a priorities committee might be appointed to " ... determine the priority in which Hansard

deals with transcripts of committee hearings" (Hansard, 7 May 1979, p.227). The Committee was told that, currently, transcripts are prepared in the order in which they are received and that delays are sometimes experienced by Parliamentary Committees in receiving transcripts due to

the heavy workload on the Hansard staff. Further inquiries by the Committee revealed that the suggestion of a priorities system is not new-it was considered some few years ago--nor, indeed, is it considered to be necessary now.

Our inquiries revealed that where a Parliamentary Committee is faced with an urgent reference, and therefore requires transcripts of evidence quickly, the arrangement exists for the Chairman of that Committee to approach the Presiding Officers who may then agree to give a direction for some priority to be accorded to

the particular Committee's transcript. The Committee believes this to be a satisfactory arrangement. The nub of the problem surrounding the delays that occur with the pro­ duction of Committee transcripts is staffing. In its May 1978 Report, this Committee commented that 'We have been aware that for some time, Hansard has found great difficulty in attracting suitable staff due to the salaries paid to

the Reporters, as compared with those of the States and Court Reporters, and the volume of work and hours of duty expected from Commonwealth Hansard staff'.

5

Its inability to attract Reporters is the reason that Hansard has had to develop a tape recording transcription centre to handle the workload imposed by Parliamentary Committees. As for the delays which now occur, the Committee reminds the Senate of the evidence given previously when it was stated that 'We regard tape recording as a cumbersome, expensive and inefficient way to report anything .. .' and that with Reporters ' . .. the job can be done in half the

time' (Hansard, 4 May 1978, p. 141 ). On the evidence before the Committee at this stage, it is inappropriate to make judgments and comparisons on a work-value basis between the Common- · wealth Hansard and other Reporting services. However, a reading of pages 135 to 137 of Estimates Committee A Hansard for 4 May 1978, underlines the vast workload and hours of duty differences between the Commonwealth Hansard and the other services.

This Committee therefore repeats the recommendation made in its May 1978 Report. Just as an allowance is paid to Ministerial and Opposition private sec­ retaries, and to some other officers of the Government, in recognition of the long hours and other demands placed upon them by their positions, so too should such conditions be recognised in the form of an allowance for the Parliamentary Reporting Staff. Apart from the obvious justification of this proposal, the Committee also believes that such an allowance would assist Hansard in attracting suitable reporting staff.

In the meantime, if the demands on Hansard's services start to produce increasing delays in the production of Parliamentary Committee transcripts, it may prove necessary for the Presiding Officers to assess the priority of, or even exclude, the reporting of some or all of the 32 non-parliamentary conferences currently serviced by Hansard (Estimates Committee A Hansard, 4 May 1978, p. 137}.

5. The Committee records its appreciation of the explanations provided by the President of the Senate, the Minister for Education, the Minister for Science and the Environment and the officers of the various Departments who assisted during the examination.

6

K. J. MARTIN Chairman

Minutes of Proceedings

25020179'---3

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMfiTEE A MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 13 MONDAY, 7 MAY 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.00 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.

2. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Resolution of the Senate of 5 April 1979 relating to the reference to the Committee of the Par­ ticulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1978-79 was reported.

3. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman stated that, pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate on 5 April 1979, the Committee would consider the following departmental estimates:

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 22-24 270-280 Education 9 202000

B 6 835 Education 744 000

A 4-6 101- 109 Parliament 808 000

B 4 800 Parliament 79000

A 45-47 500-516 Prime Minister and Cabinet 1449 ()()()

B 11 916 Prime Minister and Cabinet 750 ()()()

A 56-57 670-678 Treasury . 8 279000

B 13 971 Treasury . . 152 ()()()

A 29-30 315- 318 Foreign Affairs • 10 763 ()()()

B 7 852 Foreign Affairs . 27000

* Document A-'Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979'. * Document B-'Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979'.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -PARLIAMENT: Appearing: Senator the Honourable Sir Condor Laucke, President of the Senate, accompanied by the following officers:

Department or the Senate: Mr J. R. Odgers, Clerk of the Senate Mr A. R. Cumming Thorn, Acting First Clerk Assistant Mr H. Evans, Deputy Usher of the Black Rod Mr T. Wharton, Deputy Usher of the Black Rod Mr G. Nankervis, Acting Senior Parliamentary Officer (Administration) Mr M. Rosser, Senior Parliamentary Officer, Travel (Inter-Parliamentary

Union)

Parliamentary Reporting Staff: Mr J. F. Kerr, Principal Parliamentary Reporter Mr F. W. Temperly, Administrative Officer

9

Library: Mr H. MacLean, Deputy Parliamentary Librarian Mr M. Bray, Administrative Officer Mr H. Knight, Finance Officer Mr G. Cooper, Technical Developments Officer Joint House Department:

Mr E. J. Donnelly, Secretary Mr W. J. McLaren, Security Co-ordinator Mr R. L. Burrell, Chief Executive Officer Mr M.D. T. Niven, Senior Administrative Officer Mr G. I. Hope, Principal Technical Officer Mr M. J. Talberg, Secretary, Public Accounts Committee Department of Finance:

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 101-109- Parliament (Document A) Division 800 - Parliament (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Parliament.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION: Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Department oj Education: Mr H. E. Hughes, First Assistant Secretary, Special Programs Division Mr R. N. Allen, Acting Head, Australian Capital Territory Office of Further Education Mr J. Wilson, First Assistant Secretary, Student Assistance Division Mr P. C. Maher, Acting Assistant Secretary, Departmental Services Branch Mr W. Bowron, Director, Operations, Student Assistance Division Mr J. Morey, Director, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch Mr E. M . McConchie, Assistant Secretary, Australian Capital Territory

Further Education Branch Mr A. Woods, Finance Officer, Australian Capital Territory Further Education Branch Mr M. Doburn, Finance Officer, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination

Branch Mr M. Higgins, Administrative Officer, Northern Territory Education Commission Mr J. Mears, Finance Officer

Mr C. McDougall, Finance Officer Tertiary Education Commission: Mr N. Garcia, Acting Director, Finance and Management Services Branch Mr S. B. Kirk, Finance Officer Australian Capital Territory Schools Authority:

Mr B. Peck, Acting Chief Education Officer Dr J. Grant, Director, Curriculum Branch

10

Miss T. Reilly, Assistant Director, Finance and Supply Mr V . Gozentas, Finance Officer Schools Commission: Mr D. Marsh, Director, Management Services

Ms M. Haynes, Finance Officer Commonwealth Teaching Service: Mr K. Glover, Executive Officer Ms S. Miller, Finance Officer

Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 270-280 -Department of Education (Document A) Division 835 -Department of Education (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Education.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET: Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet: Mr A. J. Ayres, Deputy Secretary Mr J. G . Hinton, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Operations Division Mr A. J. Mann, Acting Assistant Secretary, Services Branch Commonwealth Ombudsman:

Mr K. M. Crotty, Deputy Ombudsman Mr P. Gamp, Administrative Officer Australian Science and Technology Council: Dr R. M. Green, Secretary

Mr E. N. Cain, Principal Project Officer Public Service Board: Mr R. N. McLeod, Secretary Mr R. G. Harvey, Assistant Commissioner, Management Branch

Mr R. C. Harris, Acting Assistant Director, Finance and Accounts Mr R. J. McNally, Assistant Director, MANDATA Program Office Departmen't of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 500-516 - Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (Document A) Division 916 - Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet

(Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet.

11

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPAR1MENT OF THE TREASURY: Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of the Treasury: Mr T. L. J obling, Director (Finance and General), Management Services Branch Mr B. Strangio, Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Mr D. W. Holmesby, Estimates Officer, Management Services Branch

Miss M. P. Genat, Inspector Personnel, Management Services Branch Mr B. A. Seebach, Senior Finance Officer, Revenue, Loans and Investment Division Mr E. F. Del of ski, Senior Finance Officer, Overseas Economic Relations

Division Mr W. Chapman, Administrative Officer, Committee of Inquiry into the Australian Financial System Australian Bureau of Statistics:

Mr P. G. Howell , Assistant Statistician, Management Services Branch Mr B. H. Crook, Assistant Statistician, Technical Systems and Production Branch

Mr D. M. Debenham, Director, Finance and General Services Mr J. E. Mackay, Senior Inspector (Finance and Accounts) Mr R. P. O'Callaghan, Acting Inspector (Finance) Australian Taxation Office:

Mr J. J. Daly, Assistant Commissioner, Management Services Branch Mr P. E. Simpson, Executive Officer, Treaties and Projects Branch Mr P. J. McCann, Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Department of Finance:

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 670-678 - Department of the Treasury (Document A) Division 971 - Department of the Treasury (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of the Treasury.

8. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Foreign Affairs: Mr R. Fernandez, Deputy Secretary Mr K. McDonald, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Foreign Service Division Mr A. D. Campbell, First Assistant Secretary, International Organisations

and Consular Division Mr I. G. Bowden, First Assistant Secretary, Public Affairs and Cultural Relations Division Mr F. B. Hall, Chief of Protocol

12

Mr C. 0. F. Houge, Assistant Secretary, South East Asia Branch Mr J. Benson, Assistant Secretary, Nuclear Policy Branch Mr C. Bromwich, Assistant Secretary, Technical Services Branch Mr B. L. Parkes, Acting Assistant Secretary, Administrative Services

Branch Mr G. Bilney, Acting Assistant Secretary, Economic Organisations Branch Mr R. Taylor, Director, Administrative Post Liaison and Organisation Section

Mr K. Oakman, Acting Director, Property and Office Services Section Mr G. Wildermuth, Acting Director, Communications Section Mr E. Dobson, Director, ADP Section

Mr M. Mann, Acting Director, Finance Section Mr N. J. Kelly, Budget Officer, Finance Section Mr D. O'Neill, Acting Adviser on Science, Technology and the Envi:ronment Australian Development Assistance Bureau:

Mr E. Ingevics, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Policy, Training and Organisations Division Mr C. E. T. Terrell, Assistant Secretary, Development Training Branch Mr B. Bray, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Services Branch

Mr T. J. Johnson, Acting Head, Finance Section Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 315-318 - Department of Foreign Affairs (Document A) Division 852 - Department of Foreign Affairs (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Foreign Affairs.

9. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee considered matters for inclusion in the Draft report.

10. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 3.45 p.m.

11. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Knight, Martin, McLaren ( 3). Senators Coleman, Jessop and Tate also took part in the Committee's proceedings.

13

K. J. MARTIN Chairman

.,.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

REPORT TO THE SENATE

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITIEE B

REPORT TO mE SENATE

Estimates Committee B has the honour to Report to the Senate.

1. On 5 April 1979, the Senate referred to the Committee the Additional Estimates for the year 1978-79 relating to the ifollowing Departments: Attorney-General's Trade and Resources

Industrial Relations Employment and Youth Affairs Special Trade Representative

2. The Committee has considered these Additional Estimates, together with the Departmental Explanatory Notes, and has received evidence in relation to them from the Attorney-General, Senator Durack, and officers of the Depart­ ments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports. of

the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the· Senate in connection with the Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1978-79 and the Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1978-79. Certain answers to questions which were deferred and subsequently given in writing since the Committee's last hearings will be tabled

in the Senate, and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committee's hearings.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters arising from its consideration of the Estimates:

Attorney-General's Department:

Widow of a Judge-Payment in Lieu of Long Leave: The Attorney-General's Department ·made provision in its estimates for payment of $18 600, in lieu of long leave, to the widow of a judge-a payment which has in fact already been effected. This matter has been raised by Estimates Committees on many occasions previously, culminating in a recommendation in May 1978

that, 'in the event of any future provision for payments of this nature in the absence of statutory authority', such provision should be opposed until statutory authority is provided. This recommendaion was endorsed by Estimates Committee B in its October 1978 Report.

In view of the clearly-stated intention of the Committee to recommend that any further appropriations of this nature not be made, the Committee queried whether any special circumstances existed which necessitated the premature payment to the judge's widow.

The Committee notes that legislation to provide for such payments has now passed the House of Representatives and is currently before the Senate. The Attorney-General has done everything possible to carry out his and his predeces­ sor's undertaking. As the transcript of evidence tabled with this Report indicates, the Committee was satisfied with the extraordinary reasons given for the payment

in this case, and therefore does not propose any further action on the matter. The Committee is confident that the vexed question of long-leave payments to the

17

judiciary will now finally be resolved by the prospective passage of the bill and the provision of legislative fiat. On that basis the Committee makes no recom­ mendation to refuse the appropriation.

Attorney-General's Department and Department of Industrial Relations:

Car Hire: Two separate questions relating to the provision of cars were raised during the Committee's hearings. The first concerned the cost of the apparently unlimited availability of cars to the judiciary, and to presidential members of the Conciliation and Arbitration

Commission. The Attorney-General advised that the matter was currently under consideration by the Minister for Administrative Services. The second related to the running costs of cars used by Departmental officers. The Committee was interested to find a quite startling discrepancy between hire costs of 'self-drive' cars provided by the Department of Administrative Services, on the one hand, and commercial hire rates and 'car with driver' rates

on the other, (Evidence p. 287). Evidence indicated that self-drive cars are hired out to Departments at $33 per week whereas the car with driver charge is in excess of $120 per day (8 hours). The discrepancy should be investigated to ascertain whether one form of hire is subsidising the other or whether the cost of the provision of drivers

magnifies real costs to the apparent extent and if the latter the efficiency of the the current system. The Committee recommends that both matters might be pursued by the Estimates Committee to which the Estimates of the Department of Administrative Services will be referred during the Budget Sittings.

Departments of Industrial Relations and Employment and Youth Affairs: The Committee notes that these two Departments have been created by the division of the Department of Employment and Industrial Relations and that it appears to have been achieved with expedition and minimal additional expenditure.

Department of Trade and Resources:

Australian Uranium Export Office: The Committee noted that a new appropriation was sought for the establishment of an Australian Uranium Export Office within the Department of Trade and Resources.

The establishment of the Office was announced by the Minister in a Media Release on 12 October 1978, but was not announced in the Parliament, although it was meeting on that day. Departmental Officers explained that, despite some features of the Office which suggested to the Committee that separate statutory authority might have been for its establishment, the Office had been created within the ordinary

departmental structure, with positions established, where required, under the provisions of the Public Service Act. The Committee agreed with comments made by the Attorney-General that while there was a need for independent advice within the departmental structure, there was not at this stage a need for an independent statutory authority.

18

The Committee expresses concern in relation to the method adopted in establishing the Office which r:esults from · the announcement of a new policy not authorised by special legislation. The · method adopted had the indirect effect of depriving the Senate of its amendment power in relation to new policy items included in Appropriation Bills. The appropriations for the new Office should,

under the 1965 Compact, have been contained in Appropriation Bill No. 4.

Confidentiality of Information: In November 1978, the Committee reported some difficulty in receiving certain information, on grounds which included a possible breach of commercial confidentiality.

In that case, the answer was provided to the Committee's satisfaction, but the Committee emphasised that the ground of commercial confidentiality did not prima facie override the higher principle of public accountability for funds ex­ pended, and recommended to the Senate that the Standing Orders be amended to enable an Estimates Committee to take evidence in camera where commercial

or other confidentiality is involved and it is appropriate that such confidentiality be protected. On 16 November 1978, the Senate referred the matter to the Standing Orders Committee, which has yet to report to the Senate on the issue.

During the hearings on 7 May 1979, a member of Estimates Committee B asked for details of foreign companies which have had discussions with the Uranium Export Office. The witness indicated that there might be some question of commercial confidentiality involved, and indicated that he would refer the matter to the Chairman of the Office, if pressed. The Committee member asked that the matter

be pursued. The Committee received an answer from the Department, indicating that 'Mr Anthony's staff will advise Senator Durack of the Minister's decision on a reply to the question seeking the names of foreign companies with whom the Australian Uranium Export Office has had discussions'. The Attorney-General's

office subsequently advised the Committee as follows: 'Mr Anthony feels strongly that it would be improper for the information as to the names of foreign companies with which the AUEO had had discussions, to be provided.

'The information from the companies was provided in confidence and to reveal a list of potential buyers would be a breach of that confidence: their in­ terests would be revealed and this would be of value to their competitors.' A further six questions relating to export controls and contracts were given in writing to the Department, on the grounds that a suitable officer was not present at the Committee's hearings to answer the proposed questions orally. These questions and answers will be incorporated in the Hansard transcript of

the Committee's proceedings. The Committee noted with concern that, in answers to three of the six questions, information was denied to the Committee on the grounds of confi­ dentiality of discussions between the Government and companies.

The Committee emphasises that it appreciates the difficulties which confront a Minister who must attempt to reconcile his duties as a member of the Executive Government, engaged in confidential discussions with external institutions, with his responsibilities as a Minister accountable to the Parliament.

19

However, it draws attention to the further point, made in its previous report, that 'it is for the Committee to consider the relevant weight to be given to the conflicting interests of commercial confidentiality and public accountability'. This whole matter appears to the Committee to lend weight to its 1978 recommendation 'that the Standing Orders be amended to enable an Estimates Committee to take evidence in. camera where commercial or other confidence is involved and it is appropriate that such confidentiality be protected'.

The Committee therefore recommends that this latest example of the need for in camera evidence be drawn to the attention of the Standing Orders Committee.

General comment: The Committee was pleased to note the continuing refinement of Explanatory Notes provided by the Departments it examined. While some small discrepancies in the breakdown of expenditure still remain, the Committee's examination of the Additional Estimates was considerably facilitated by the provision of standard form information in the notes. This enables some degree of comparability and

aggregation hitherto impossible. In addition, the calibre of the witnesses appearing before the Committee was generally high. The Committee drew attention during its hearings to the presence of the Secretary of the Department of Industrial Relations, and the Deputy Secretary of the Attorney-General's Department. The Committee notes that its previous comments relating to the need for seniority and expertise of witnesses

were reinforced by the Standing Orders Committee in its Report to the Senate, tabled on 2 May 1979.

4. In conclusion, the Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance given by the Attorney-General and the officers of the various departments who assisted the Committee.

20

P. E. RAE Chairman

Minutes of Proceedings

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 12 MONDAY, 7 MAY 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.00 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1979.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accom­ panied by the following officers:

Department of Industrial Relations: Mr M. Keogh, Secretary Mr J. Maher, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr J. Brassil, Assistant Secretary, Legislation Mr K. Power, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services

Mr R. Coffey, Director, Personnel and Projects Mr F. Kovachevich, Director, Finance and Services Mr E. Lamb, Assistant Director (Management), Industrial Relations Bureau

Mr B. Holdart, First Assistant Director (Special Activities), Industrial Relations Bureau Mr J. Keary, First Assistant Director (Industrial Regulation), Industrial Relations Bureau Mr M. Heagney, National Director, Trade Union Training Authority

Mr P. Wade, Administrator, Trade Union Training Authority Mr P. W. D. Matthews, Director of Studies, Trade Union Training Authority

Department of Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr T. R. Waters, Acting Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

Mr J. E. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Division 370 - Department of Industrial Relations (Document A) Divisions 292-295 - Department of Industrial Relations (Document A)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Industrial Relations.

23

25020!79-4

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL.EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D·. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accom­ panied by the following officers:

Attorney-General's Department: Mr F. J. Mahony, O.B.E., Deputy Secretary Mr A. R. Neaves, Crown Solicitor Mr L. G. Glare, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Special

Services Division Mr A. R. 'M. Watson, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Federal Courts Division Mr J. H. Greenwell, Senior Assistant Secretary, Intellectual Property and

Industrial Law Branch Mr C. C. Creswell, Senior Assistant Secretary, Family Law Branch Mr F. J. Thomson, Acting Assistant Director, Australian Legal Aid Office Mr J. L. M. Carnsew, Assistant Secretary, Special Services Branch Mr A. B. French, Acting Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr R. J. Venables, Finance Section, Central Office Mr C. Bevan, Acting Director, Australian Institute of Criminology Mr R. Mills, Registrar, Administrative Appeals Tribunal Mr G. Wyer, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner

for Community Relations

Department of Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Finance Division Mr T. R. \Vaters, Acting Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Finance Division

Mr J. E. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Finance Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 165-17 5 - Attorney-General's Department (Document A) Further consideration of the Attorney-General's Department Proposed Additional Estimates postponed till after the consideration of Department of Employment

and Youth Affairs' Proposed Additional Estimates.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND YOUTH AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Employment and Youth Affairs: Mr J. E. Cooley, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management Services Division Mr J. E. Devitt, Assistant Secretary, Finance Mr J. Way, Assistant Secretary, Office of Youth Affairs Mr P. M. Monie, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy and

Programs Division .

Mr A. G. Abrahart, Acting Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy and Programs Division, Employment Policy and Programs Branch Mr N. J. Clifford , General Manager, CES Operations Division

24

Mr D. G. Poulter, Acting General Manager, CBS Programs Division Mr G. L. Bride, Acting Manager, Aboriginal Employment and Training Branch

Department of Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Finance Division Mr T. R. Waters, Acting Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Finance Division

Mr J. E. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Finance Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 286-288 - Department of Employment and Youth Affairs (Document A) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Employment and Youth Affairs.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 19'78-79 -ATTORNEY -GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT-Consideration resumed: The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 178-192 - Attorney-General's Department (Document A)

Division 825 - Attorney-General's Department (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Attorney-General's Department, subject to the further consideration of Division 186 at 8 p.m.

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL ESTIMATES DEPARTMENT OF THE SPECIAL TRADE REPRESENTATIVE: The Chairman called on the following Division for consideration: Division 620 - Department of the Special Trade Representative

(Document A) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of the Special Trade Representative. The Committee adjourned at 3.50 p.m. till 8 p.m. this day.

AT 8 P.M.:

8. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT The Chairman called on Division 186 for further consideration. The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional

expenditure for the Attorney-General's Department.

9. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND RESOURCES: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q. C., Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Trade and Resources: Mr S. Ryan, Director, Financial Management and Services Mr G. L. V. Hooton, First Assistant Secretary, Australian Uranium Export Office

25

Mr P. Marcusson, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Branch Mr M. Farrow, Assistant Secretary, Uranium Division ", Department of Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 640-646- Department of Trade and Resources (Document A) Division 953- Department of Trade and Resources (pocument B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure . for the Department of Trade and Resources.

10. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 8.55 p.m.

11. A TIENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator G. J. Evans, Senator A. J. Messner and Senator M. C. Tate. Apologies were received from Senator J. N. Button and Senator H. W. Young.

26

P. E. RAE Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 13 WEDNESDAY, 9 MAY 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 6.00 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. MINUTES: On the motion of Senator Messner, the Minutes of Meeting No. 12, held on Monday, 7 May 1979, were confirmed.

3. CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT: The Committee proceeded to consider the Report, which was agreed to without amendment.

4. ADDITIONAL REPLIES: The Committee resolved that additional replies received by the Committee from Departments, together with a letter from the Private Secretary to the Attorney-General, be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in the Hansard record of the Committee's proceedings.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.05 p.m.

6. A TI'ENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator G. J. Evans, Senator A. J. Messner. Apologies were received from Senator J. N. Button, Senator M. C. Tate and Senator H. W. Young.

27

P. E. RAE

Chairman

ESTIMATE·S COMMITTEE C

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMfiTEE C

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee C has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 5 April 1979, the Senate referred to the Committee the Additional Estimates for the year 1978-79 relating to the following Departments: Social Security Finance

Health Immigration and Ethnic Affairs Veterans' Affairs

2. The Committee considered the Additional Estimates and received explan­ ations from the Minister for Social Security (Senator Guilfoyle) and officers of the various Departments. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of

the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1978-79 and Appro­ priation Bill (No. 4) 1978-79.

3. During the hearing of evidence undertakings were given that additional written information would be made available to the Committee. The Committee hopes that all outstanding written replies to questions will be answered before the Appropriation Bills are considered in the Committee of the Whole Senate,

so that a better informed debate can then take place on the items of expenditure involved.

4. The Committee records its appreciation of the evidence given by the Minister for Social Security and officers of the various Departments whose Esti­ mates the Committee considered.

31

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

Minutes of Proceedings

mE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 12 THURSDAY, 5 APRIL 1979

1. DELIBERATIVE MEETING: The Committee met at 1.05 p.m.

2. ADMINISTRATIVE ARRANGEMENTS: The Chairman drew the Com­ mittee's attention to the research carried out by the Staff of the Committee during the consideration of the Budget Estimates in 1979. The Committee resolved that the practice adopted then should continue.

The Committee further resolved that any Senator, though not a member of the Committee, may have access to the research officer and such information as may be prepared by him if a request was first made through the Chairman.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 1.13 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Coleman, Kilgariff and Walters. Senators Sheil and Teague also participated in the meeting.

35'

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 13 FRIDAY, 4 MAY 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.00 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Walters) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made an introductory statement.

3. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79: Pursuant to Order of the Senate, the Committee commenced consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending 30 June 1979' and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending 30 June 1979 as follows:

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 52 590 Social Security 2 687 000

A 27-28 304-308 Finance 1 315 ()()()

B 7 846 Finance 12 023 ()()()

A 31-32 325-335 Health 5 946 000

B 7 856-857 Health 13 094 000

A 36-37 360-364 Immigration and Ethnic Affairs 3 420 000

B 9 870-874 Immigration and Ethnic Affairs 752 000

A 58-59 690-693 Veterans' Affairs 11 696 000

• Document A-•Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979'. • Document B-•Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979'.

4. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SECURITY: Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Social Security: Mr D. Corrigan, First Assistant Director-General (Management) Mr J. D. Hall, First Assistant Director-General (Rehabilitation and Subsidies) Mr A. S. Colliver, First Assistant Director-General (Social Welfare) Mr J. M. Mahoney, Acting First Assistant Director-General (Benefits) Mr C. Calvert, Assistant Director-General (Finance)

Mr K. Horsham, Assistant Director-General (Subsidies) Mr J. Lleonart, Assistant Director-General (Special Projects) Mr L. H. Ryan, Assistant Director-General (Automatic Data P:rocessing} Mr D. R. Scott, Assistant Director-General (Management Services)

Mr J. A. Lucas , Principal Executive Officer (Office of Child Care)

36

Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on Division 590, Department of Social Security.

Consideration commenced of the following Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure: Division 590 - Social Security (Document A) $2 687 000

Consideration of the Estimates for the Department completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

5. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE: Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, and Minister representing the Minister for Finance, accompanied by the

following officers: Department of Finance: Mr P. L. I'..1cCulloch, Director, Finance and General Services Mr G. M. Wauchop, Director, Personnel and Establishments

Mr W. J. Brophy, Director, Automatic Data Processing Operations Mr A. S. Cole, Assistant Secretary, Development Branch Mr P. J. Gunther, Chief Finance Officer, Development Branch

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Australian Government Retirement Benefits Office: Mr D. N. Droop, Director, Services Mr R. R. Jackson, Finance Officer Office of the Superannuation Fund Investment Trust:

Mr W. J. Gynn, Secretary

The Chairman called on Divisions 304-308, 846, Department of Finance. Consideration commenced of the following Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure: Divisions 304-308 -Finance (Document A) $1 315 000

Division 846- Finance (Document B) $12 023 000

Consideration of the Estimates for the Department completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

6. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Health, accompanied by the following

officers: Department of Health: Mr C. A. Nettle, Deputy Director-General Mr L. W. Lane, First Assistant Director-General, Management Services

Division Mr J. McCauley, First Assistant Director-General, Health Services Division Mr R. H. Searle, First Assistant Director-General, Quarantine Division Dr D. B. Travers, First Assistant Director-General, Medical Services

Division

37

..

Mr M. Carroll, First Assistant Director-General, Insurance, Hospitals and Nursing Homes Division Mr R. E. M. Wilson, Acting First Assistant Director-General, Therapeutics Division Mr J. W. Shaw, Assistant Director-General, Finance, Pharmacy Earnings

and Projects Branch Mr G. F. Bunfield, Director, Finance Mr R. A. Foskett, First Assistant Commissioner, Capital Territory Health Commission Mr A. J. Tozer, Assistant Commissioner, Capital Territory Health

Commission Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on Divisions 325-335, 856-857, Department of Health. Consideration commenced of the following Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure: Divisions 325-335 - Health (Document A) $5 946 000

Divisions 856-857 -Health (Document B) $13 094 000

Consideration of the Estimates for the Department completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

7. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF IMMIGRATION AND ETHNtC AFFAIRS: Appearing:

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs: Mr N. Fisher, First Assistant Secretary, Division 2 Mr P. H. Bennett, Assistant Secretary, Management Branch Mr A. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Control Branch Mr S. Lewis, Assistant Secretary, Citizenship Branch Mr E. McDonough, Assistant Secretary, Temporary Entry Branch Mr B. Machin, Assistant Secretary, Adult Education Branch

Mr G. Kiddie, Assistant Secretary, Settlement Branch Mr B. Murray, Assistant Secretary, Ethnic Affairs Branch Mr N. Hoffman, Acting Assistant Secretary, Refugees Branch Mr A. Burt, Director, Finance and General Services .. . .. Departm,ent of Finance:

.,· · ' Mr R. i. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on Divisions 360-364, 870-874, Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs.

Consideration commenced of the following PartiCulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure: Divisions 360-364 - Immigration and Ethnic Affairs $3 420 000 Divisions 870-874- Immigration and Ethnic Affairs $752 000

. Consideration of the Estimates for the Department completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

38

8. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR TilE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied

by the following officers: Department of Veterans' Affairs: Mr G. T. Miller, First Assistant Commissioner, Management Services Division

Mr K. H. Ryan, Acting Director (Finance), Management Services Division Mr G. Laube, Acting Director (Finance Operations), Management Services Division Dr M. M. Kehoe, Deputy Chief Director (Medical Services), Medical

Division Mr B. O'Shannassy, Acting First Assistant Commissioner, Treatment · Services Division Mr J. Hill, Assistant Commissioner, Benefits and Legislation Division Defence Services Homes Corporation:

Mr A. J. Selleck, General Manager Mr C. E. Stenhouse, Manager (Corporation Planning) Mr J. Reynolds, Director (Finance Management) Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on Divisions 690-693, Department of Veterans' Affairs.

The following Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure were considered: Divisions 690-693 - Veterans' Affairs (Document A) $11 696 000

Consideration of the Estimates for the Department completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

9. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 4.32 p.m.

10. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Bonner, Grimes, Kilgariff, Mulvihill and Walters. Senators Harradine and Teague were also in attendance.

39

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 14 WEDNESDAY, 9_ MAY 1979

1. DELIBERATIVE MEETING,: The Committee met at 9.08 p.m.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the meetings held on 5 April 1979 and 4 May 1979 were read and confirmed.

3. CONSIDERATION OF REPORT: The Chairman presented her Draft Report to the Committee. Discussion ensued. Resolved: That the Report be agreed to.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.13 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Walters, Kilgariff and Mulvihill. Senator Teague also participated in the meeting.

40

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee D has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

2. Pursuant to the Order of the Senate the Committee has considered the estimates of proposed additional expenditure of the following departments: Department of Science and the Environment Department of Primary Industry

Department of Home Affairs Department of the Capital Territory Department of Housing and Construction

The Committee has received explanations of the proposed additional expenditure from the Minister for Science and the Environment and officers of the departments concerned.

3. The minutes of proceedings of the Committee are included in this Report and the Hansard report of the evidence taken is presented herewith. Written answers furnished by departments will be presented separately and printed in the Hansard record.

4. The attention of the Senate is drawn to the following: (i) Department of the Capital Territory - Canberra Showground Trust (Division 210/3/16 and 829/3/02) The Canberra Showground Trust was established under an Ordinance

of the Australian Capital Territory in 1976 and commenced operations on 1 April that year. In each of his reports since that time, the Auditor- . General has reported that the Trust 'has failed to compile proper accounts and records of its financial transactions' and consequently has not been in a position to submit financial statements for audit for 197 6--

77 and 1977-78. The Auditor-General has therefore not been able to report to the Minister for the Capital Territory on the financial affairs of the Trust as required by the Ordinance. In its report in October 1977 Estimates Committee E drew attention to the Auditor-General's com­ ments and to the relatively large allowances which were then being

provided to members of the Trust. Since its establishment the Trust has received a total of $326 000 from moneys appropriated by Par­ liament. In these additional estimates, Parliament is requested to provide an appropriation of $28 000 to supplement the original appropriation

of $159 000 to subsidise the non-commercial operations of the Trust. In addition, the Parliament has been asked to appropriate $116 000 which is described as a 'repayable working capital advance' to the Trust to finance its comme rcial operations. The Committee was told (Hansar d, 3 M ay 1979, page 41) that the term s of repay ment of this advance have

not yet been determined. The Committee endeavoured to obtain som e ex­ planation of the reasons for the Canberra Showground making such a loss and requiring such support. It is the ex perien ce of the Committee, however, that oral evidence given by officers of the Department of the

Capital Territory is generally of a lower standard than that given by

43

other departments, and the Committee was not given any coherent reasons for the relatively large sums which have been allocated to the showground. The Committee considers that the large sums of money which have been provided to the Trust and which are now being requested ought

to be a matter of serious concern to the Senate particularly in view of the findings of the Auditor-General. The Committee therefore recom­ mends that the affairs of the Canberra Showground Trust should be the subject of an inquiry by the Senate Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations. {ii) Transfer of Savings

During the hearing of the Committee questions were asked about an amount of $30 000 which was stated to be for a jubilee display for the Academy of Science and which was contained in a miscellaneous vote (Division 540/2/07) for the Department of Science and the Environ­ ment. The Committee was told (Hansard, 3 May 1979, pages 8 and 9)

that the display in question took place in March, that the Department of Finance agreed to the expenditure on the display provided that there were corresponding savings, and that the savings were made in the planning and equipment vote of the Antarctic Division by deferring

certain orders with 'minor inconvenience'. It appears, therefore, that the Parliament is not being asked to approve the estimates of additional expenditure required by departments, but in this instance at least merely to give approval to the transfer of money from one item to another. This does not appear to be a proper use of additional estimates, but if this is to be done there should be at least an indication of it in

the explanatory notes provided by the departments. There was no such indication in the example cited.

44

C. R. MAUNSELL Chairman

Minutes of Proceedings

TilE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 11 THURSDAY, 3 MAY 1979

1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met in public session 2.15 p.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 1. The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair.

2. DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE AND THE ENVIRONMENT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environ­ ment, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of Science and the Environment:

Mr C. A. Webster, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch, Central Office Mr K. R. S. Fuller, Assistant Secretary, Policy Studies and International Activities Branch, Central Office Mr G. Kelleher, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Environment Division Bureau of Meteorology:

Mr R. Maine, Acting Assistant Director (Management) Mr D. T. O'Shea, Finance Officer Antarctic Division: Mr G. Smith, Acting Logistics Officer

Mr A. J. Carroll, Acting Project Officer Central Office Support: Mr R. S. Hooker, Director (Finance and Supply) Mr M. R. Britton, Finance Officer (Estimates)

Mr J. A .. Assistant Finance Officer (Estimates)

Mrs L. Atkinson, Executive Officer Ms E. A. Gladwin, Assistant Finance Officer, Estimates C.S.I.R.O.: Mr I. C. Bogg, Senior Assistant Secretary (Budget and Planning)

Mr P. F. Butler, First Assistant Secretary (Science Liaison) Dr J. B. Allen, Senior Assistant Secretary (Science Liaison) Mr I. L. Farrar, Assistant Secretary (Estimates) Mr W. P. Dominguez, Acting Chief Finance Officer (Budget)

Mr R. J. Garrett, Acting Senior Finance Officer (Budget) Department of Finance: Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The following particulars of proposed additional expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 540 - Administrative S 1 286 000

Division 542 - Analytical Services $214 000 Division 543 - Antarctic $379 000 Division 544 - Bureau of Meteorology $410 000 Division 554- C.S.I.R.O. $1 685 000

47

Document B Division 843 - Other Services $1 480 000

Consideration of these particulars of proposed additional expenditure was concluded.

3. DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environ­ ment, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of Primary Industry:

Mr D. P. Cleary, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr L. C. Elliott, Director of Finance Mr E. A. Purnell-Webb, First Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 5 (Fish-eries) Division Mr P. T. Preston, Assistant Director, Bureau of Animal Health Dr W. J. Pryor, Assistant Director, Bureau of Animal Health

Mr A. Kempe, Principal Executive Officer, Bureau of Animal Health Mr N. Lamb, Principal Executive Officer, Bureau of Agricultural Economics Mr E. L. Jenkins, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 4 (Sugar and Horti­

cultural Crops) Division Department of Finance: Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The following particulars of proposed additional expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 490- Administrative $499 000

Division 494 - Bureau of Animal Health $764 000 Division 495 - Export Inspection Services $20 000 Division 497 - Bureau of Agricultural Economics $120 000 Document B

Division 912 -Capital Works $700 Division 913 - Payments to the States $76 300 Division 814- Other Services $36 000

Consideration of these particulars of proposed additional expenditure was concluded.

4. DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS: . Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environ­ ment, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of Home Affairs:

Mr T. F. Pearson, First Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination and Manage­ ment Division Mr B. Palmer, Director, Management Services Branch, Co-ordination and Management Division Mr T. F. Fowler, Assistant Director, Finance and Services Section, Co­

ordination and Management Division Mr K. Taperell, Assistant Secretary, Office of Women's Affairs

48

Mr K. P. Cooper, Assistant Secretary, Indian Ocean Territories Branch, Territories Division Mr W. Syrette, Acting Director, Norfolk Island Section, Territories Division Mr H. T. Plant, Assistant Secretary, Other Territories Branch, Territories

Division Mr G. Strang, Acting Director, Sports Section, Territories Branch Mr P.M. Ryan, Acting Director, Australian War Memorial Mr M. D. G. Coley, Assistant Director, Australian War Memorial Department of Finance:

Mr D. G. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The following particulars of proposed additional expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 340 - Administrative $445 000

Division 344- War Memorial $12 800 Division 345 - Christmas Island $163 200 Division 346- Cocos (Keeling) Islands $102 700 Division 347 -Norfolk Island $177 000 Division 455- Administrative $46 300 Document B

Division 862 - Other Services $166 000 Division 897 - Capital Works and Services $30 000

Consideration of these particulars of proposed additional expenditure was concluded.

5. DEPARTMENT OF THE CAPITAL TERRITORY: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environ­ ment, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of the Capital Territory:

Mr D. M. Lalor, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Supply Mr C. S. Hamilton, Director, Programs and Budgets Mr M. W. Edgerley, Director, Forests Mr J. M. Herner, Assistant Secretary, Welfare Mr L. W. Ryan, Director, City Engineering Mr W. L. Antill, Superintendent, Management Services, A.C.T. Police Mr K. W. Sandoe, Executive Officer, A.C.T. Police

Dr B. H. Pratt, Director, Conservation and Agriculture Miss L. M. Webb, Director, Services (Public Transit) Mr D. A. Brown, Acting Assistant Secretary, Establishments Australian Parliament House Construction Authority:

Mr B. Callinan, Chairman, Parliament House Construction Authority Mr B. M. Browning, Assistant Secretary, Program Management Mr P. Leonard, Principal Executive Officer, Program Management Mr I. D. Fowler, Registrar of the Parliament House Architectural

Competition Department of Finance: Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

49

The following particulars of proposed additional expenditure were called upon and c.onsidered: Document A Division 210 - Administrative $1 876 800

Division 212 - A.C.T. Legislative Assembly $4200 Division 213 - A.C.T. Police $297 000 Division 215 - Parliament House Construction Authority $35 000 Document B

Division 829 - Capital Works $186 000

Consideration of these particulars of proposed additional expenditure was concluded.

6. DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND CONSTRUCTION: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environ­ ment, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of Housing and Construction:

Mr K. J. Rodda, Deputy Secretary Mr J. H. Gunn, Acting Assistant Secretary (Works) Mr W. D. Hamilton, Assistant Secretary (Finance) Department of Finance:

Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The following particulars of proposed additional expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 220 - Administrative $445 000

Division 224 - Repairs and Maintenance $146 000 Document B Division 831 - Capital Works $2 051 700 Division 832 - Other Services $5 586 300

Consideration of these particulars of proposed additional expenditure was concluded.

7. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee deliberated upon its report to the Senate. The Chairman stated that a draft report incorporating the suggestions made by members would be circulated to the members of the Committee.

8. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.07 p.m.

9. ATTENDANCE: Present: All members of the Committee. Senator Mulvihill also attended.

50

C. R. MAUNSELL Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

REPORT TO THE SENATE

'•,

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee E has the honour to Report to the Senate.

1. On 5 April 1979, the Senate referred to the Committee the Additional Estimates for the year 1978-79 relating to the following Departments: Aboriginal Affairs Industry and Commerce

Transport Administrative Services Productivity

2. The Committee has considered these estimates and has received explana­ tions of them from the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and from officers of the Departments concerned. A copy of the Hansard report of the evidence is tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with the Appropriation Bill (No. 3)

1978-79 and the Appropriation Bill (No.4) 1978-79.

3. The Committee wishes to draw the attention of the Senate to the fact that the uniformity of Explanations received from Departments, together with their comprehensive nature, contributed greatly to the Committee's being able to carry out its allotted task expeditiously.

4. The Committee expresses its thanks to the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and the Officers of the Departments concerned for the full and frank explanations which they gave to the Committee.

53

M. TOWNLEY Chairman

Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMI1TEE E MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.ll THURSDAY, 3 MAY 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.15 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Townley) took the Chair.

2. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The resolution of the Sen­ ate of 5 April 1979· relating to the referral of Estimates Committee E of Particu­ lars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the year ending 30 June 1979· was reported.

3. PROCEDURE OF THE COMMITTEE: The Chairman made a Statement re­ lating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure and stated that, pursuant to· the 0Tder of the Senate of 5 April1979, the Committee would consider the Particulars

of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the service of the year ending 30 June 1979 relating to the following departmental Additional Estimates:

Division

Document • Page No. Department Amount

s

A 7 120-125 Aboriginal Affairs 1 513 000

B 4 814 Aboriginal Affairs 756 000

A 39 380 Industry and Commerce 2 032 000

B 9 878 Industry and Commerce 31000

A 55 655-662 Transport 11 713 ()()()

B 12-13 957-959 Transport 12453 ()()()

A 8-11 130-291 Administrative Services 8 522 000

A 21 252 Acquisition of Sites and Buildings (Defence) 2 333 000

B 4-5 817-838 Administrative Services 6 091 ()()()

A 48-49 522-528 Productivity 3 287 000

B 11-12 921-922 Productivity 5 357 ()()()

* Document A-'Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979'. * Document B-'Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979'.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Ron. F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Aboriginal Affairs: Mr P'. J. Sullivan, First Assistant Secretary (Management) Mr C. Perkins, First Assistant Secretary (Policy II) Mr N. J. L. Jansz, Assistant Secretary, Program and Budget Ms A. Somers, Assistant Secretary, Policy

Mr R. J. Angel, Assistant Secretary, Operations and Management Mr R. A. Jenkins, Assistant Secretary, Management Services

57

Mr B. Thomas, Director, Policy Mr C. Hamilton, Director, Personnel and Establishments Mr R. Toohey, Director, Program and Budget Department of Finance:

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Minister made a statement relating to the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 120L-125 -Department of Aboriginal Affairs (Document A) Division 814 - Department of Aboriginal Affairs (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE: Appearing: Senator the Hon. F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Industry and Commerce: Mr A. H. Steele, Assistant Secretary, Heavy Engineering and Shipbuilding Branch Mr R. J. Kinsella, Director, Finance and Management Services Mr K. J. Nielson, Assistant Secretary, International Branch Department of Finance:

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Division 380 - Department of Industry and Commerce (Document A) Division 878 - Department of Industry and Commerce (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Industry and Commerce.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Transport: Mr G. Birch, First Assistant Secretary, Finance and Commercial Mr G. O'Halloran, Director of Finance, Budget Mr K. Smith, Assistant Secretary, Finance Mr D. Langford, Assistant Secretary, Rail Mr G. J. Whitty, Senior Inspector, Department of Transport Department of Finance:

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

58

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 655-662 - Department of Transport (Document A) Divisions 957-959 - Department of Transport (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Transport.

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES: Appearing: Senator the Hon. F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Administrative Services: Mr A. R. Palmer, Acting Secretary Mr R. W. B. Davies, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr E. Wigley, First Assistant Secretary

Mr V. K. Peak, Principal Executive Officer, Transitory Accommodation Section, Policy and Special Projects Section Mr L. R . Dudley, Assistant Secretary, Grants and Authorities Branch Mr S. A. Wenger, Principal Executive Officer, Grants and Assistance

Section, Grants and Authorities Branch Mr H. E. Keen, Acting Assistant Secretary, Honours Secretariat Mr D. M. Lenihan, Assistant Secretary, Policy and Executive Projects Branch Ministerial and Management Services Division:

Mr D. R. White, First Assistant Secretary Mr B. E. Hinchcliffe, Assistant Secretary, Personnel and Establishments Branch Mr T. T. McElroy, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Office Services

Branch ·

Mr P. D. Priestly, Director, Estimates and Expenditure Control Section, Finance and Office Services Branch Mr A. P. Gregson, Acting Principal Executive Officer, Parliamentary Services, Parliamentary and Ministerial Services Branch Property and Survey Division:

Mr M. W. Frankcom, Acting First Assistant Secretary Mr B. H. Bunfield, Executive Officer, Land Programming Section, Property Branch Mr A. A. Hillier, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Operations Branch

Mr W. D. Kennedy, Surveyor-General Transport and Storage Division: Mr J. J. Mason, Acting Assistant Secretary, Planning and Review Branch Information Services Division:

Mr P. A. Nott, First Assistant Secretary Purchasing Division: Mr A. A. Sinclair, Acting Assistant Secretary, Operations Management Branch

Mr P. J. Dawson, Assistant Secretary, Special Projects Branch Australian Electoral Office: Mr E. D. Walton, Assistant Secretary (Operations) Mr J. C. Womersley, Director, Information and Electoral Education

59

Mr B. L. Traynor, Director, Enrolment Systems Section Mr D. P. Reynolds, Director, Management Services Commonwealth Police: Mr R. Farmer, Acting Assistant Commissioner (Crime Intelligence}

Mr M. P. Webber, Director, Administration Mr P. J. D. Levett, Administrative Officer Grants Commission: Mr A. A. Glasson, Acting Secretary Commonwealth Accommodation and Catering Services Ltd:

Mr B. R. Hook, General Manager

Department o1 Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 130-160 and 291 - Department of Administrative Services (Document A) Division 252- Acquisition of Sites Buildings (Defence) (Document A) Divisions 817-838 -Department of Administrative Services (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Administrative Services. ·

8. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTl\1ENT OF PRODUCTIVITY: Appearing: Senator the Hon. F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Productivity: Mr H. J. Ryan, Deputy Secretary Mr M. I. Homewood, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Finance and Management Services Division Mr K. McKnown, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Management Services.

Division Mr W. M. Drysdale, Director, Programs and Estimates Finance Branch, Finance and Management Services Division Mr P. Schultz, Assistant Secretary, Technology Development Branch,

Productivity Development Division Mr J.P. Forestier, Senior Assistant Commissioner (Business Management), Patent, Trade Marks and Designs Office Mr D. L. Main, Acting Director (Aircraft), Aircraft, Guided Weapons

and Electronics Supply Division Mr J. E. Crennan, Principal Executive Officer (Aircraft Guided Weapons and Electronics Supply)

Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Minister made a statement relating to the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Productivity.

60

·The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 522-528 ----Department of Productivity (Document A) Divisions 921-922 - Department of Productivity (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of Proposed Additional Expenditure .for the Department of Productivity.

9. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.15 p.m. until a day and hour to be fixed.

10. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: :Senators Elstob, Jessop, MacGibbon, Mcintosh and Townley. Senators Bonner, Georges, Gietzelt, McClelland and Mulvihill also attended.

61

M. TOWNLEY Chairman

THE SENATE

COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.ll WEDNESDAY, 9 MAY 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.15 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Townley) took the Chair.

2. REPORT OF. THE COMMITIEE: The Committee considered a Draft Report to the Senate. Discussion ensued. Resolved: That the Report be adopted.

3. MINUTES: The Minutes of the meeting held on 3 April 1979 were read and

4.. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.25 a.m. till a day and hour to be fixed.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Bishop, Elstob, MacGibbon and Townley.

!.62

M. TOWNLEY Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

REPORT TO THE SENATE

mE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

REPORT TO mE SENATE

Estimates Committee F has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 5 April 1979 the Senate referred to the Committee the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the year 197 8-79 relating to the following Departments: Department of Defence

Department of National Development Department of Business and Consumer Affairs Postal and Telecommunications Department

2. The Committee has considered the Proposed Additional Expenditure and has received explanations from the Ministers and officers representing the depart­ ments concerned. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1978-79 and Appropriation Bill

.(No. 4) 1978-79.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters: .(a) Department of Business and Consumer Affairs

Division 195-3-06 - Sale of Petroleum Products (Northern Territory) - Financial Assistance, $1 100 000 This item provides for payment of a subsidy to registered distributors of ,certain eligible petroleum products in the Northern Territory. The pur­

pose of the subsidy is to reduce the price of petrol to the consumer in isolated areas. The Committee notes with concern that no effort is made by the Department to check whether or not the price at retail outlets reflects the Commonwealth subsidy. The Department, therefore, could ·not assure the Committee that the subsidy was being passed on to the

consumer. In explanation, the Department suggested that while it could control the wholesale price of petroleum products, it did not have the ,power to ensure that the appropriate price was charged at the retail level. Where this year the Commonwealth is appropriating to the Northern

Territory an amount of $5 .2m for this scheme, the Committee feels that regular evaluation as to its effectiveness should be undertaken. If, subse­ quently, the scheme is not found to be operating to the satisfaction of the Department, measures may then be devised to ensure that the con­ sumer receives the benefit of the subsidy. To suggest that a failure to

monitor or evaluate the operations of a scheme because certain aspects are difficult to enforce is. an inadequate response. The Committee is of the opinion that only by regularly reviewing its policies and evaluating their effectiveness can the Government satisfy the Senate that the most benefit

to the community is obtained for each dollar of taxpayers' money expended. Postal and Telecommunications Department

Division 480-4-02 - International Telecommunication Union­ Contribution $60 000

65

This item provides for payment of the Department's share of Australia's contribution towards the budget of the International Telecommunication Union. The Committee was advised that the additional expenditure was required to meet exchange rate variations.

The Committee is satisfied with the Department's explanations on this matter insofar as they apply to Department of Finance directions. However, the size of the amount sought by the Department for the reasons given is of concern. In fact, throughout its hearings, the Com­ mittee was advised that exchange rate variations were responsible for many significant amounts sought by the additional estimates. In expla­ nation, officers of the departments questioned on this matter advised that they could only budget on the exchange rate which existed at the

time the estimates were prepared. They further advised that, on some occasions, savings were made when overseas currencies varied in a favourable manner to the Australian dollar. The Committee accepts that appropriations which involve expenditure overseas may need to vary to allow for currency fluctuations. However, the Committee trusts that, following Australia's adoption of an exchange rate which fluctuates with a trade weighted 'basket' of currencies, wherever possible, these

financial dealings will be undertaken .in a currency which is less likely to be affected by adverse fluctuations.

(c) Postal and Telecommunications Department Division 480-2-07 - Compensation Payment to Dr G. N. Evans $5081 This item was included in Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1978-79 for the ordinary annual services of the Government, a Bill which, under the

Constitution, the Senate cannot amend. Its purpose is to provide to an officer a lump sum compensation pay­ ment, as determined by the Prime Minister, for the termination of his services to the Broadcasting Control Board following its abolition in

1976. Since it appeared to the Committee that this expenditure was not an ordinary annual service of the Government, the Department of Finance was asked why this item was not included in Appropriation Bill (No. 4)

which the Senate, under the Constitution, is able to amend. In writing, the Department explained that the lump sum compensation payment was calculated as the difference between the salary applicable to the position to which the officer was appointed following the abolition

of the Board and the salary which the officer would have received had he completed his term of appointment. It was further explained that the procedure followed was consistent with Public Service practice and, in effect, was a payment in lieu of salary. The item, therefore, was

listed as an expenditure for the ordinary annual services of the Government. Despite this explanation, the Committee is not satisfied that the pay­ ment can be classified as an 'ordinary' or 'annual' expenditure.

There has been no previous provision under any statute to pay the compensation. It is not 'ordinary' because a determination by the Prime Minister on an appropriate amount has been required to effect the compensation. Also, the officer has not received payment for services rendered to the Government since the amount is compensatidn payable

66

to make up for salary lost by Government decision. Therefore, the Com­ mittee suggests that the amount cannot be classified as 'salary' and should not have been included in Appropriation Bill (No. 3) as an ordinary annual service.

While, on this occasion, the amount involved . is small, to the Com­ mittee the principle is not. The Committee re-states para. 31 of the Report from the Committee appointed by Government Senators on Appropriation Bills and the

Ordinary Annual Services of the Government (Parliamentary Paper No. 55 of 1967), viz.: 'The Government has the Constitutional right to introduce any proposed law appropriating revenue or moneys-it is only the Government through

whom the Governor-General's recommendation under section 56 of the Constitution can be submitted. But the decision as to the proper form of an Appropriation Bill does not belong to the Go¥ernment-it is a decision to be made by the Parliament. This emphasises the importance of continuing the Parliamentary practice-or improving the definition

of it-which determines the form in which the amendable Bill will be acceptable to the Parliament.' To this the Committee can only add that under similar circumstances as described above where doubt may arise in deciding which Appro­ priation Bill an item should appear, such doubt should be resolved by excluding the item from the Appropriation Bill for the ordinary annual services of the Government.

4. The Committee records its appreciation for the explanations provided by the Minister for Education, the Minister for Social Security, the Attorney-General, the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and the officers of the various departments who assisted during the examination.

67

A.M. THOMAS Chairman

Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.7 THURSDAY, 3 MAY 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.15 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Thomas) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year ending 30 June 1979 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year ending 30 June 1979, and stated that, pursuant to the

Resolution of the Senate on 5 April 1979, the Committee would consider the following departmental estimates:

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 19-21 230-242 Defence .. 103 179 000

A 40-41 296-436 National Development 886 000

B 10 883-887 National Development 4 258 000

A 15-16 195-202 Business and Consumer Affairs 3 666 000

B 6 826-827 Business and Consumer Affairs 76000

A 42 480-484 Postal and Telecommunications 3 004 000

• Document A-'Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979'. • Document B-'Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979'. • • Excluding Division 252 under the control of the Department of Administrative Services.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE: Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, representing the

Minister for Defence, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Defence: Mr N. J. Attwood, Deputy Secretary A Mr P. E. Bazley, Chief Executive Officer, Manpower Development and

Studies Mr W. H. Bareham, Director-General, Supply-Navy Commander I. M. Burnside, Director-General, Recruiting Colonel H. J. Coates, Director-General, Training and Education Policy

Brigadier G. F. Cohen, Director-General, Training and Education Policy Mr P. G. Collins, First Assistant Secretary, Industrial Air Vice-Marshal J. G. Cornish, Chief of Air Force Materiel Mr K. A. Gaffey, Chief Executive Officer, Estimates and Programs­

Supply Division Group Captain I. B. Oration, Director, Operations-Air Force

71

Mr P. A. Hemsley, Acting Assistant Secretary, Science and Technology Administration Mr M. T. Hyland, First Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budgets Captain J. M. Kelly, Director, Naval Operations Mr A. F. Kent, Assistant Secretary, Project Planning and Evaluation Brigadier D. S. Kew, Director-General, Supply-Army

Mr K. T. Lyon, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning-Air Force Mr L. A. McGee, Assistant Secretary, Quality Assurance and Engineering Resources Policy Brigadier N. J. McGuire, Director-General, Movement and Transport Mr I. D. McLeod, Chief Executive Officer, Budgets and Estimates-

Co-ordination and Review Mr P. F. McNamara, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning-Navy Brigadier D. J. McMillen, Deputy Chief of Materiel-Army Mr R. D. Martin, Acting Assistant Secretary, Natural Disasters

Organisation Mr M. J. Murray, Chief Executive Officer, Procurement Progressing and Procedures Mr G. E. Nicholls, Assistant Secretary, Naval Technical Services Mr J. S. O'Neill, Assistant Secretary, Budgets and Estimates (General

and Co-ordination) Mr T. J. Parker, Assistant Secretary, Administrative Services Group Captain J. A. Paule, Acting Director-General, Joint Plans and Operations Mr I. M. Reid, Assistant Secretary, Defence Facilities Programs

Management Rear Admiral W. J. Rourke, Chief of Naval Materiel Mr A. Sharpe, Deputy Chief-Defence Science Mr T. E. Sullivan, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning-Army Dr A. Taloni, Assistant Secretary, Project Co-ordination (Computer

Services) Air Vice-Marshall S. R. White, Chief of Supply Mr D. A. Whitty, Assistant Secretary, International Policy (Papua New Guinea and Defence Co-operation Programs) Department of Finance:

Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 230-242 - Department of Defence (Document A)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Defence.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Appearing: Senator the Honourable P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of National Development: Mr W. H. Ratcliff, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr F. J. Smith, Director, Finance and General Services Mr L. Riches, Assistant Director, Finance and Accounts

72

Mr A. Manderson, First Assistant Secretary, Water Division Mr P. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Uranium and General Division Mr T. McMahon, First Assistant Secretary, Regional Development Division Mr R. Hopkins, Assistant Secretary, Energy Research and Development

Division Mr P. W. Tormey, Assistant Secretary, Energy Policy Division Mr C. Veenstra, Assistant Director (Survey), Division of National Mapping

Dr A. R. Jensen, Acting Assistant Director (Operations), Bureau of Mineral Resources Australian Atomic Energy Commission: Dr G. L. Miles, Deputy Director (Operations)

Dr W. B. Rotsey, Acting Head, Regulatory and External Relations Branch Mr A. J. Moulding, Assistant Secretary (Finance) The Pipeline Authority: Mr T. R. Baker, Executive Member

Mr G. J. Jones, Acting Finance Manager Mr D. Mills, Chief Accountant

The Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 296-436 -Department of National Development (Document A) Divisions 883-887- Department of National Development (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of National Development.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -DEPARTMENT OF BUSINESS AND CONSUMER AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Honourable P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompan­ ied by the following officers:

Department of Business and Consumer Affairs: Mr J. W. Cahill, First Assistant Secretary, Management Services Mr A. B. Luckman, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Mr J. W. O'Callaghan, Director, Finance and Property

Mr R. M. Hullick, Finance Officer Industries Assistance Commission: Mr A. G. Koukoulas, Assistant Commissioner, Services Mr K. Mourant, Director, Management Services

Trade Practices Commission: Mr J. V. McKeown, First Assistant Commissioner, Mergers, Policy­ Secretary's Mr S. Malouf, Secretary Mr M. Davies, Finance Officer

The Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 195-202 - Department of Business and Consumer Affairs (Docu­ ment A) Divisions 826-827 - Department of Business and Consumer Affairs (Docu­

ment B)

73

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Business and Consumer Affairs.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 8.53 p.m.

7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Gietzelt, Sibraa, Thomas and Watson. Senators Georges and Young also took part in the Committee's proceedings.

74

A. M. TIIOMAS Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMIITEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.8 FRIDAY, 4 MAY 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.02 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Thomas) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1978-79 -POSTAL AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT: Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Postal and Telecommunications Department: Mr E. E. Payne, Acting Secretary Mr R. T. Lord, First Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting Division Mr E. J. Wilkinson, First Assistant Secretary, Radio Frequency

Management Division Mr F. Sharp, Engineer Class 5, Engineering Services Division Mr B. Foster, Senior Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Mr D. M. Large, Acting Chief Executive Officer, Policy Division Australian Telecommunication Commission:

Mr K. West, Assistant General Manager, Marketing Mr G. Hudson, Manager, Financial Planning Branch Australian Postal Commission: Mr J. Brady, Manager, Corporate Affairs Overseas Telecommunications Commission (Australia) :

Mr G. F. Maltby, Assistant General Manager, Operations Mr C. C. Vonwiller, Deputy Director, Marketing Australian Broadcasting Commission: Mr J. Fitzmaurice, Acting Assistant General Manager, Television

Mr J. Peter, Acting Assistant General Manager, Radio Mr W. Funnell, Controller Finance Mr K. Bourke, Controller Engineering Mr J. Newsom, Radio Branch

Mr G. Reynolds, Television Branch Mr R. McCormick, Finance Branch Australian Broadcasting Tribunal: Mr B. Connelly, Secretary

Mrs R. Whittaker, Acting Executive Officer Mr C. Answorth, Acting Senior Finance Officer Mr M. Payton, Acting Finance Officer Special Broadcasting Service:

Mr W. Watson, Director, Ethnic Television Department of Finance: Mr T. R. Waters, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 480-484 - Postal and Telecommunications Department (Document A)

75

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Postal and Telecommunications Department.

3. PRIVATE MEETING: For the purpose of considering a draft report the Committee went into a deliberative session.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 11.25 a.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Ryan, Sibraa and Thomas.

76

A.M. THOMAS Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITIEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.9 TUESDAY, 8 MAY 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 6.03 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Thomas) took the Chair.

2. CONSIDERATION OF A DRAFT REPORT: The Committee proceeded to consider matters to be included in its Report to the Senate. The Committee resolved that a Draft Report be circulated to members of the Committee.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.20 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Ryan, Sibraa, Thomas and Watson.

77

A.M. THOMAS Chairman