Title Defence - Intoxicating Liquors - Effect on soldiers, &c. - Progress Report of Senate Select Committee
Source Senate
Date 01-05-1918
Parliament No. 7
Tabled in Senate 01-05-1918
Parliamentary Paper Year 1918
Parliamentary Paper No. S1
System Id publications/tabledpapers/HPP052016002045


Defence - Intoxicating Liquors - Effect on soldiers, &c. - Progress Report of Senate Select Committee

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1917-18.

THE PARLIAMENT -OF THE COlVIMONWEALTH .OF' AUSTRALIA.

' T:E-IE

PROGRESS ,REPORT

FROM THE .

·OOMNIITTEE

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INTOXICATING LIQlJOR-,. , EFFECT, ON SOLDIERS AND BEST

METHOD OF DEALING WITH SALE -;

TOGETHER WITH

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE UP TO 27TH MARCH, 1918. '<.

Brought up by Senator Thomas; ordered by the Senate to be printed, 1st May, 1918.

[Cost of not given ; 817 copies ; appro:ximate cost of pt·inting a.nd pubUshin;, £161.)

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Printed .... and Published for GovERNMENT of the COÂ¥MONWEALTH of AUSTRALIA by ALBERT j. Mur.uTT, Government Printer for the State of Victoria.

_ No. 8.1.-F .14.59.-PlUOE 4s. 6d. /

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REPORT.

On the lOth 1918, the Senate resolved-

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(1) That a SelBct Committee be appointed to inquire as to the extent that intoxicating · liquor is -adversely affecting outgoing and returned soldiers, and the best method of dealing with 'the sale of intoxicating liquor durjng the period of the war and of demobilization an'& repatriation, with power to call for papers

and witnesses. (2) That the Committee consist of Senators Foll, Lieut.-Col. Bolton, Grant, Col. · Rowell, . Guy, Buzacott, and the Mover (Senator Thomas). \

On_ the 22nd 1918, the Senate further res?lved-That the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the effects of intoxicating liquor on outgoing and returning soldiers have leave to report its _ of evidence fr0m time to time. -

and, also, on the same day,_ granted leave to the Committee to adjourn from place to place .

. Your Committee now/_have the honour to to the Senate the following Progress ·Report:- · ·

2. Your Co.1nmittee have now examined witnesses in Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth, Hobart, and Launceston, and hope to -proceed to Sydney and: Brisbane when Parliament adjourns, in order to complete their inquiries.

SUP;P-L Y QF INTOXICATING TitQUOR TO INVALIDS.

3. Dr. Frederick Dougan Bird stated in evidence before the Comn1ittee in Melbourne:-' _ . 206. Since your return have you had any professional experience among returned Eoldiers am now occupying the position of Major ·in reserve, and I believe I am consulting surgeon, but I ·have not very much work to do , though I have seen a fair , -:p.umber of our men. ·

208. 'What would you suggest should be don-e to minimize the evil think the course followed in England might be adopted he;re. In England it is an offence to ((treat '' a soldier, though he may be .offered a:packet of cigarettes; and that policy, I understand, has diminish'ed the drink evil a deal in the Old Co-untry. The

closing of public houses also .had a good effect. I was at Salisbury Plains for a time, and saw a good deal of our n1en. The hospitals became disorganized · there, and the I:tpperial authorities ,asked me if I would go down and try to matters up.

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- I was there when -the Governn1ent decided to close the public houses. I thought it was the right thing to do. -· - ·

237. Having regard now to the tremendous problem of repatriation, as a medica] officer, can you say if the majority of the men returning are in an abnormal state n1entally and physically ?- I think the majority are not in their ordinary frame of mind. It is hardly expected that they could be, for I k:Q.ow how restless I . was mysf3lf -for three or four months after my return, and how I was nearly throwing everything

up and going back. - - - " - .. . •

238. Then do you think the problem of repatriation will be rendered more difficult by the continued use of alcohol in our community ?-I should say that without alcohol _ · the difficulties you mentioned would be J @creased undoubtedly. ·

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' --. Senior Constable Samuel John Hallett also gave evidence in Melbourne as follows:-281. I suppose that you have noticed that among men, as .a rule, it takes very little intoxicating liquor _ to upset them ?-There is rio doubt about that, because the men are generally suffering from operations and other complaints. .systems have been weakened, with the result that they cannot stand as much drink as when in perfect health. I should say_ that,. in many cases; men who have been accustomed to take half-a-dozen glasses of whisky would now be affected by one or , . Arthur Maddock David, to the Victorian Branch of the Returned Soldiers' and Sailors' Association, stated :-347. When soldiers return invalided after a long absence, there is generally a little excess amongst some of them ; they meet their friends , and there is generosity --:1 will not say undue generosity- that is not very beneficial to them for a little while .? - Yes. I would say it is undue generosity and mistaken friendship. The military officer of whom I was speaking said, " If the boys on coming back have a place like yours to go to, a place under control, it would sa've them Jrom the mistaken generosity of civilians who take them into the hotels in the streets. '2 l\1en who have been picked up in the streets, and who have not had a drink in our club, have often been brought into our club rooms and put on to couches to sleep off the effect s of the liquor they have consumed going from hotel to hotel. They have been treated by people who feel a sort of reflected glory in being with men. 348. After the first week or two do you find that the majority of t.he returned men become normal ?-Yes. It-is just in the flush of the first return that the greatest evil is done. Unfortunately, in many cases the evil is of such a nature that some poor fellows cannot get back to the normal, because du_ring the first period considerable damage is done to them in many ways. 352. I suppose that drink J:tas been -an unfortunate factor in that' respect?-In 90 cases out of 100 it has been. , · - Charles Richard Wynn Brewis, R.N. , Naval Transport Officer, Melbourne, stated:-638. D-o you find that !l10St of the drunkenness is on·the part of men who are passing through to other States on the 'returning transports ?-.Yes ; and I think- the noticeable "' effects of alcohol are largely due to the men suffering from shell-shock and other nerve trouble. In such cases vefy little drink produced a marked effect on the individual. , - . . · ' 642. At the same time, you think that a person suffering from shell-shock should not be with liquor ?-That is my opinion as a layman, and I believe · that Colonel Cuscaden will it. _ I would penalize such men for their own sake. 643. Could you extend that prohibition to a soldier who had been injured in some way other than by shell-shock ?;_I would apply it to all men who are suffering from mental or nerve trouble. ' · . -·: · · Dr-. William Booker Vance, Commanding Officer of No. 11 AustraJian Hospital, · :Caulfield, gave evidence to the.following effect:- . 924. Can you say if drink affects invalided soldiers to any extent ?-Yes, very much indeed, because if a man takes drink while under treatment he does not make satisfactory progress. ' ,-- /925. Do you a certain number ·of the men _manage to get intoxicant liquors while under treatment ?-A certain proportion do. Last year J had 91 men up before me at the orderly-room <;>n charges of drunkenness, but that number· did not include all the sbldiers who had taken drink while under treatment. Quite a large­number of men absent-without leave were also the burst." rhey told ine they were ashamed of themselves, and preferred to get §_ober before they came back to the hospital. . . . . . - . r 927. i4 ,y<;>ur opinion, does drink· seriously affegt the progress of patients ?- es; it retaras their 'recovery. ·- r - , _· • • ' . \ .

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931. If a man is a total abstainer, would he recover more qu!ckly· than a man who is accustomed. to drink is not the slightest doubt about that. As a

man, I can t.ell tlie Committee that. a total abstainer will staJ!d disease very

much _better than a man who is the in habit of taking alcohol. ·

932. Even if taken moderately who is to define "moderately"

A tablespoonful of spirits would be like poison to some men, while others ·could, perhaps, t_g,ke half-a-dozen tablespoonfuls without feeling any ill effects from it. But a glass of beer, if taken with food , would not be harmful one way or the other, though-it would be just as well for a person to wait ,p.ntil later in life, when, perhaps, this

would be needed, and might then be beneficial. -- 933. I take it that if y9u had your way the men would not be able to get drink -f

at all is correct. -

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Margaret Read Shoo bridge, Matron of the Red Cross Hostel,-Hobart, informed the Com­ mittee as follows :-_ I -

. Are many of the returned men in a very ... weakened condition so far as -their nerves are concerned, and more easily a prey to drink ; and. that is why it is 'to give them a certain amount of protection against themselves. They are"' in an abnormal condition arising from abnormal circumstances. Th.ey have lost

their will powe_r. T.hey suffer from insomnia and all sorts of failure on the· part of their ·vital forces. They are depressed, and- suffer from want of occupation.

, Duncan McRae·, Vice:. President of the Hohart Branch of the Returned Soldiers' Asso_­ ciation, stated in evidence,:-:- .

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- ' '2139. Naturally y'our association, which for the purpose of lo0king after the welfare of the returned soldiers and their dependents, is very: much interested . in anything affecting it At a general meeting·Tecently we appointed

a sub-committee to go into the _question of the_ effeot of drink on returned soldiers. The report of that committee· was as follows:- _ The Committee were of opinion that drink had .an injurious effect u:p.on medical cases, especially suffering from neurasthenia, suppurating wounds, ·

and to the head. The general effect upon medical eases is detrimenta}. I Drink has a very disturbing influence upon the successful employment of . a certain percentage of returned soldiers, rendering them unreliable. It has been found in certain cases that men, after being found employment, will -· absent themselves from. work without acquainting their employer. Usually in

these cases .it is found that such men have gone on a spree. This must inevitably cause employers to be -cautious when employing soldiers. Employers, when inquiring fer labour, generally make a practice of asking for information as to · the sobriety of any applicap.t. The committee are of opinion that the number

of returned soldiers addicted to the excessive use of alcohol is not very Some restriction of the consumption of liquor appears. to the committee to be - · very desirable. _ · - :- ·

The members of the sub-committee were Lieut.-Col. Butler, C.O. No .. 9 -Sergeant H. Barret, and myself. Our report was endorsed

by the general committee. The evidence ·in regard to medical matters was 'mostly given by Lieut.-Col. Butler. Evidence irl, regard to employment was -established from the records. - - -

The Rev. Donald McNicol, Cha!ffain, Adelaide-3736. . . . . It is a tremendous struggle, and I can understand a man taking to drink while that struggle is on. He--is in such a peculiar state of min-4 and heart I h,elieve it t.o be conducive to repatriation to have the temptation to drink kept out

of the men's way. - ·

4. The evidence of these witnesses and also of medical officers and others in Launceston, Adelaide, and Perth induces your Committee to the opinion that troops from the front, who are wounded, and still under medical care, should be prohibited from hari_ng intoxicating .· ljqu9r of any description. Such men are not allowed have it in England, and it is not made

availa_ ble to them on transports ; and we-consider that so lo:p.g n1en are under medical care

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after their return total prohibition should apply to them. We feel we are justified in our opinion in this matter, by the fact that medical officers invariably say that·-the use of intoxicating liquor by men under their care seriously retards recovery._ The evidence also shows that most, if not all, of the returned wounded men have received very serious mental they are not normal, and are, therefore, unable to withstand the of intoxicants.

5. The evidence given before your Committee in Adel-aide and Perth shows that the Govern­ ment had every justification for deciding to close the hotels when returned soldiers were in port. - Some of the scenes that occurred in Fremantle and Adelaide and elsewhere were of a horrifying nature, and the decision of the Government must be approved by all. If, however, a regulation were

brought into force preventing any returnj:)d soldier being served who-is u:n,_der medical care (and we take it that practically all the returned soldiers come under that category), there would be no reason to continue the present practice of closing the hotels within a certain radius between the arrival and departure of a transport. • ·

6. We realize that serious inconvenience is- caused to a large number of people in Fremantle, Perth, and other centres when transports ·with returned' soldiers arrive. - This inconvenience would be obviated if returned invalids could not "Qe served, and the hotelkeepers could then confidently be "expected to support the Government.' ·

7. If it were found that the reguyations were not being adhered to, the Government could - at any time revert to the practice of closing the hotels.

RECOMMENDATI0NS.

8. Your Committee recommend :-· - ...

1. That the regulations under the War Precautions Act be amended in order to provide that 'no hotelkeeper, licensed victualler, or any person whatsoever shall sell or-give or dispose of in any way any-liquor of an intoxicating nature to a returned soldier who is under medical care, except under the direction of a recognised military medical officer. . ·

2. That provision be made for the imposing of a penalty for the contravention of- the proposed regulation sufficiently severe to act as a deterrent. - .

3. That all returned who are invalids, should, as is the practice in

wear a distinguishing badge on the arm during the period that they under medical care. · - · .;. ,

"SHOUTING."

9. Amongst _the ·witnesses already by your Committee are Military and Medical Officers, Chaplains, Returned Soldiers, Matrons of .Returned f?oldiers' Rest Homes, Matrons of Hospitals, Police Inspectors, and Officer.s of the Y.M.C.A. ·

10. In reply to the question whether to their drink interfered with the "efficiency or morale or training of our soldiers, the statement was almost invariably made with more or less emphasis that such was undoubtedly the case. It was also elicited from the evidence that the greatest sufferers from the use of intoxicating liquor were to be found amongst the returned soldiers. The majority of the witnesses on being further questioned attributed the drinking habits of many of the soldiers to the -of " shouting," and advocated the introduction of an " anti-

h t . " I _ s ou mg aw. . . _

11. The following extracts from the evidence are .quoted in ·support of this statement:­ Police Sergeant Arthur John Sims, Victoril!::::_ 107. You the drinkfng habits of soldiers to the practice of

" shouting " ?-Yes, to the mistaken kindness of their friends. 108. Would you say that as a rule it is the civilian population that is respon-- chiefly for drinking .by returned soldiers ?-Yes. _

135. If "shouting" were prohibited, would that minimiz(3 the drink evil ?­ yes. As I have said, much of it on the part of soldiers is due to the mistaken kindness of their friends. · '

· 136. Would it have a good effect upon the community generally 1-Yes, as the result of iny experience and observation, I believe that .it wquJQ.... .

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Dr. Frederic Dougan Bird, Melbourne- · 210. Then would you advocate "anti-shouting'' · in Australia ?-Yes. 223. Do you think that more restrictions should be placed upon soldiers in regard to ·the sale of intoxicating drink ?-I would not allow them to be a treated" by friends. I - - •

224. Then you would be an advocate of an "anti-shouting" law ?-Yes, I am sure that is the right course. - ·

Senior Constable Samuel John Hallett, Melbourne-298. From your experience, can you say if the'' shouting" habit has had any effect upon the drinking habits of our soldiers ?-There is no about it. One has only to stand at a street corner to realize the truth of this. One will see friends approach a chat for a .moment or two, and then say, "Come in and have a drink." The soldier complies, and possibly but for that man he would not have gone into the hotel at all.

Arthur Maddock David, Secretary to the Victorian Branch oftlie Returned Soldiers' and Sailors' · .

454. Are you of opinion that if " anti,shouting" were enforced, it would minimize the drinking evil ?-There is no doubt about it.

Gus Ebe!ing, D.S.O., President. of Standing Boards, Victoria Barracks, Mel-bourne- -

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. 549. Would you favour the prohibition of the "shouting" habit ?-J5o doubt "shouting" greatly increases drinking, but I would be in favour of preventing the opportuni!Y to "shout."

• Captain Charles _Richard Wynn Brewis, R.N., Naval Transport Officer, Melbourne-590, Would you be in favour of legislation to prohibit the sale or manufacture of 'intoxicating liquors ?:-Certainly not, but I :would be in favour of an "anti­ shouting" law. I regard "shouting" as a most pernicious habit, and as one of the chief causes of trouble. _

_,, 591. You . would prohibit " shouting" on the part of civilians because of the

- effect -the habit might haye upon our soldiers ?-From my own observation, " shouting "_ is the principal cauS'e of the drink trouble, and I would make it a­ . penal offence. I do not think that any man other than a confirmed drunkard would :sit down by himself and get drunk.

Albert York Bramwell, Officer in Charge 'of the Employment Section o£ the State War Council- ·

712. Do you think that the " shouting". habit is responsible for soldiers taking drink to excess abolition of " shouting" is one of the preventive measur_ es that might be adopted. I would prevent " shouting'' so far as soldiers are concerned.

-Rev. Thomas Staines Brittingham W oodfull, Chaplain-; Australian Imperial . , . 779. Would an "anti-shouting" law have good effect ?-:-Yes; I have · advocated such a thing. I am sure that it would minimize the evil of drinking.

Michael Gubbens Roche, Senior lnspector of Liquor, Board of Health (a!ld Trade and Customs Department), Melbourne-905; You have heard of soldiers having a" shout round " ?-Yes, a " tarpaulin muster " they call it. ·

· 906. Men are thus induced to take more than they can conveniently carry or desire ?-Yes. - 907. Do you regard "shouting " as injurious ?-Yes. -Dr. William Booker Vance, Commanding Officer No. 11 Australian General Hospital, Caulfield- .

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947. Seeing that there is very little probability of prohibition being sQcured, do you think an" anti-shouting" law would minimize the drink evil ?-:-Yes. 948. Do you think that civilians are resp1:msible for a large amount of drinking on the part of our-soldiers ab&Qlutely sure of it. · ·

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Colonel Walter John Clark, Commandant of the 6th Military District- , 1075. Do you think that the authorities could give effect to an "anti­ shouting" law ?-It would be very difficult, but I think that the restriction would have a very good effect. lt should lessen the evil very much:

1083. If that be sO, why advocate any restriction, even " anti-shouting"; if drink does not affect the Army, or its training or efficiency, there is no necessity to add any new restriction ; for instance, you advocate "anti-shouting," therefore there must be an evil which would be obviated by "anti-shouting " legislation ?­

That is so. A certain number of the men who have been rejected would, perhaps, have not been rejected if it had not for" shouting." If there was less drinking in the community, we would have more men fit for the Front.

Captain William Fotheringham, Camp Quartermaster, Claremont A.I.F. Camp, Taamania-1122. Would you be in favour of abolishing the "shout1.ug" system?-Yes.

1123. Do you think that the trouble o{ administering an " anti-shouting " law would be insurmountable ?- No; I think it could be administered all right.

Rev. John Walter Bethune, Chaplain, Hobart-1311. But you consider that " anti-shouting " would be an a:dv?-ntage ?­ Yes, I would advocate it if it could be brought in. 1323. You believe that there should be some restriction, and that it could be done by "anti-shouting" legislation ?-It would be a good reform.

1324. There is neeq for reform ?-Yes ; I think there for everyone. 1325. In the event of such a law being non-effective, would you still go further ? -I suppose I would do so, but I would like to see it tried first. · •

1326. Do you think it would be difficult to give effect to an "anti-shouting" law ?-There would be some difficulty, but I think it has already been met elsewhere. ·

Lieutenant James Oliver Storey, Officer in Charge o.f Details, Claremont Camp, Tasmania-1417. Have you heard from any of your men that the civilians have treated them kindly, and given them drink in Hobart ?-Yes.

· 1418. The civilians " shout " for them ?-Yes . . 1419. Have you heard the men express the opinion that they prefer to do without this sort of thing, ·and that it is mistaken towards. them ?L._I am referring to the occasion when the New Zealand transpo!'t called in here a little while ago. I believe a grettt number of them behaved very badly through drink.

1420. Through mistaken lrindness on the part of civilians ?- Yes. 1421. Is that an evil from drink ?-Yes . .

1422. Would you think it desirabl'e to haye an "anti-shouting" law in operation to prevent excess arising in that way ?-Yes; there should be no" shout4 ing." I cannot speak from experience, but I understand that if a man goes into a hotel for a drink with a crowd is" shouting" he has to have half-a-dozen more . drinks than he requires. -

1423. And that would be an evil in the case of a returned man suffering from a breakdown in his nerves, or one whose mental condition is not as clear as it ought to be ?-Yes ; I strongly an " anti-shouting,' law. ·

Captain Henry Charles Davies, ' Camp Claremont A.I.F. Camp,

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1508. Have you given any ·consideration to the question of " shouting " ?­ Yes. I believe in "anti-shouting " on generaJ principles, but I do not know that it would have very much effect on the troops. I think it would have an effect on the community as a whole.

1509. The soldiers are drawn from the community as a ?-That is so : 1510. If "anti-shouting" will have a beneficial effect on the community as a \Vhole, it should incidentally have a beneficial effect on the soldiers ?-It should do so. - - .

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Police Inspector William Btrin, Hobart- .,.

1610. Do you think that civilians are in the habit of inviting soldiers to drink ?-Yes, especially those passing through on transports. • 1611. Do you think that they are responsible for drink being indulged in ?-yes, or most of it.

1612. That being so, do you think that an "anti-shouting·" law would have the effect of minimizing the evil believe in an " anti-shouting " law. _ 1642. Do you think it would be possible to give effect to such a law ?- I think it could be given effect to. At any :rate, it would control a lot of drinking,

and I am satisfied that it would have good results . .)

Rev. Charl-es Clifford Dugan, Ho bar£-...

1745. So far as the evil effects of intoxicating drinks on soldiers are con-cerned, you think that the only way of lessening their effect would be to have pro­ hibition ?-No, I think that "anti-shouting " would undeniably lessen drinking / among soldiers.

Colonel Wilfrid Wanostrocht, Giblin, C.B., Principal Medical Officer -Tasmania-1972. Ar y you in favour of the abolition of " shouting " ?- Yes. 1988. Did· you have any experience of the "anti-shouting " law in England ? -Yes. ·

1989. Was it very easily evaded ?-It could be evaded; but I think it prevented a certain amount of drinking. 1990. It had a good effect ?-So far as I could see it did . I I .

William Edwin Cocks, Missioner to Seamen, Hobart-, 2054. Are you opposed to the " shouting " system ?-Yes; that is the cause of a great deal of the trouble that exists. · 2055. Would you be in favour of the enactment of -a law that would have for its object the prevention of that custom ?-Unquestionably .

. Shoobridge; Matron, Red Cross Hostel, Hobart-

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2082. Would it not be a good thing for the community if establishments like yours were provided for the generaL public ?-Yes. There should be no dark ylaces in men's lives . In t hese drinking places, only .the lowest form of women are admitted. Drinking should be open: There _should be nothing to be ashamed of. There

should be no" shouting." That is very essential. The landlord should not" treat'; the house, and the men should not " treat"- each other. I am absolutely opposed to " shouting."

Grace Roberts, Nursing Sister in Charge :of the Field Hospjtal at Camp,

2237. -In the meantine are you in favour of a proposal that would have the effect of preventing men or women "shouting" for each other ?-F:rom what the men tell me, I think there is more harm done by " shouting " than by anything else.

2_ 251. Are you under the impression that the civilian population are respon­ _ sible for most of the drinking carried on by the soldiers through the "shouting" habit from what I can gather from what the men tell me.

-2253. Have you ever l}.eard a11y complaints from the men who go into the hospital ?>bout the public "treating" them outside ?--Yes; they say they never would have drunk if some one had not said, " _Come in and have a drink." 2254. It is largely because of the kindly feeling on the part of the public that men drink to excess ?- Yes.

2255. And they complain of that

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Brown, Hobart--:-__

2304. Do you approve of the" shouting" habit ?- No. 2305. Do you think that an law would have a good effect?

- I think it would, _ especially _so far as returned soldiers concerned. · 2306. Are the civilian population responsible fm: drinking among the soldiers ?- About Hobart the civilian popri].ation follow the soldiers about with the idea of getting-a drink from them·. I seen in evidence that the civilian shows • his appreciation for -what the soldier has done by taking hirn . iri and buying him a • drink. The boot is on the other foot. ·

2312. Why are you in favour of " anti-shouting " when you say that drink has no effect on the efficiency of the service ?-As I explained just now, it would put a stop to a lot of those so-called hangers-on following" us a bout in the hotels wit h the c!_lance of/ our buying then1 a drink. . ,

2313. But why that if drink no effect on t he s-oldier or on his efficiency ? - lVIy remarks in regard to " anti-shouting ': have :p.o relation to efficiency. - · 2314. The only object you would have in supporting " anti-shouting " would . be to save the soldiers' . pockets a little ?-Not only to save our pockets, bu.t also to

save us from being continually worried by those men are chasing us around the town thinking, perhaps, that we have drawn _some deferred pay. -2315. Are you referring to men or women ?- Certainly t <2 men. .My experi­ ence on several occasions since I have returned home is that, when I have been in an hotel, two -or three at a time ·have come in asking me and my companions to_ buy them drink. They see us going in, and follow us in. -

2316. Have you heard any complaints from others-about civilians following them into bars and "bumming" for drinks ?-I am speaking from what I have ..seen · myself, and I have seen a bummer" going up to men in hotels and asking them to bey drinks for them. - : . ·

2317. You have not heard complaints from -others_ _about.it ?-I have .heard it talked about in Hobart. 2318. It has not been your experience that the- " shouting" has been a kind -of mistaken kindness on the part of the civil population I do not think

there are very many about Hobart who would take you into an hotel and buy you a drink if they thought that you did not have the_ money ·to return the "-shout."

Augusta Isabelle Moore Robinson, Principal Matron of the-· No. 9 Australian General Hospital, Roseneath, Tasmania- - . - ' · - _ . - -

2478. Do you think it would qe a good thing if the practice known as " shout­ ing" w;ts legally prohibited ?-I can o_nly form my o:pinion frmn what the men tell me. They say that· the most of their is due to habit of "-shouting! ' and

that very few of them care to have more-than one or two Of course there are a certain . numl5er . of 1nen who drunkards and who · w-ill always drink; but the others say that it -is largely due to arrwng themselves and

" shouting by civilians. · · · ·· _

.2494. Evidently you to some extent tlie confidence of tile men in the hospital ?-Yes. _ They chat ·with me. · They know pretty well what I intended to say . - · - - _ -

2495. Do they tell- you ·_ that civilians "shout" for' 1- -Yes. When five or six of our boys g9 into town they drop into a public house passing up from the ' station, and probably_ one and then another will "shout," and so it on, and it is very likely that those- who-have wives to go to do not reach their homes. Some

they ring -up at the 'hospital, a wife or a sweetheart, an

They have gone town on leave.': _ · - -

· 2496. Probably the '"shoRting" takes place among themselves ?- To a large extent it does, though I have in mind the case of one boy who caine hon1e on the train· one night and made a great exhibition of himself. He had to be pulled out of the _and carried up to tlie hospital. _ When they are like that I leave them untlllater In the day and then _ ask them to come ... to :my room, where I can have a · little chat with them. If they are to be paraded before. the doctor it means a crill).e

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. on their sheet, and as a· good many of these men have been away for two· or thtee. -years and have not had a-crime entered on their_ sheets, I am always very loath to make a start -by _them directly they- have _ con1e home. If they will

promise me that they ·will be a little more careful in future I pass over their offence " perhaps once or twice, or even , three times. However, this· particul_9r lad said, · "I -cannot tell you .b.uw ashamed I am .; I am ashamed to look you in the eye. I know what a- exhibition I made of myself." He never transgressed.

again, Newland told me that he as one ·of the very best boys he had

at the Front. That lad's case was through and friends " Shouting" for

him.

_ Hardwicke \Veedon, lVIanager 'of the Bank for Savings, and Member of Licensing Court, Launceston :-3000 4. From your ,experience drink has had very little bad effect so far as · soldiers are concerned ,I can say tp_at it has not had any effect to apy great

extent. I have seen several cases in which soldiers have drunk to excess, but I think they arose from that pernicious system _ known as "shouting." _ Soldiers are gooq fellows; but they are not so stro!}g in the head as _ they might be. They do · not like to confess that they do not think a "shout" should be returned. Besides

that th,ere is a spirit of chivalry them, and if one· says, "Have one with me," it goes all · If the :Yegislature -had adopted an "anti-shouting" law it have a step in the right direction. The "shouting" system is having ·

a gJ;eate! _effect on the returned soldier. ,..

3005. Could an "anti-shouting." law be adn1inistered effectively suppose that like every other Act it would be avoided. - '

3006. Unless the penalty was made sufficiently heavy ?--Thatis so.

J qhn Keatly . Commandant, ·4th Military District,

Adelaide-

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3292 Do you . favour the abolition of the practice of "shouting? "-Yes, every time. I may mention m.y experience in London on that_poin]. I was in London for about three" walking about night and day, an

, were very Trying to think of the reason /why I saw so few drunken soldiers in London, I came to the conclusion that it was to thefactthat the "anti-shouting" regulation was strictly ap_plied . . I saw it _in application in London and in Salisblfry. -ram satisfied that· " shouting." is the cause o·f 'nine-tenths of drunkenness in men. - --:.. - _.- I ·captain Arthl!r Seaforth Blackburn, V.C., Adelaide-

3339. Would you __ be in favour of a law to -prevent civilians "shouting" for

soldiers or soldiers "shouting" for civilians· should be strongly in favour of such a -law. ·

_ 3340. You are against "shouting" altogether am. The good ·

I of in were, I believe, due to the prohibition of "shouting.'' ·

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.· 3831. . Do you think that men are induced to drink as a result of the practice · • , . of "shouting'_ ' an1 that I cannot answer that question. I may say,

however, that I consider_ it a very great pity that civilians, in their desire to be friendly to returned filei_l, should ask them ·to have a drink. 3832. Have you heard of civilians following soldiers and asking the1n to , "shout " ; I have heard of it

Police Sub-Inspector Stephen Wellington, Adelaide-. .

· 3874. Are you in favour of an " anti:shouting think that "shout­ ing" induces a great deal of excessive_drinking. :Under that practice, a m_ an drinks because another man asks him to do s o, and not for his benefit, and he then says to the other man, "You have a drink with me." An " anti-shouting" law would reduce the amount of drinking at present carried on. -

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Colonel Richard Edmond Courfuey , Coll,lmandant, 5th Military District, Perth, in the course of his evidence, stated-" I might say, however, that if ' anti-shouting' were ·made the law and people observed it, it would be the finest thing for the population generally as well as for

t he soldier. "

He further st ated-

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3992. In t he 1neantin1e, would you drastic legislation to -prevent soldiers " shouting '' for civilians or civilians " shouting.' ' for soldiers ?-I would. People like to "shout ·, for soldiers, and that is the cause of more than half the trouble. If the soldiers had to pay for their own drinks not one-tenth of those who now take too much would fall into the evil.

Oaptain George Cooper, Commandant,_ Hill Camp, Perth-4085. There were n1en arrested on other charges ?- Yes ; but all, or nearly all, arising fro m drink, such as resisting arrest, using obscene laguage, being impro-perly dressed, and things of that sort. -

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- 4086. Such offences are almost wholly due to drink ?-Yes. 4087. When 1nen are " cri1ned " do they ever confide in you, and give you a reason for t heir offence ?- They say that they met a "cobber" fro1n the field s, or $Ql11ething like that.

' 4088. Do they complain that the mistaken kindness of friends has got them into trouble ?-They give that as an excuse for committing the offence with which they are charged. They say they met some old friend, or some one who came from the Front. · · .

4089. Are you impressed with sincerity, or do you consider that it is only an excuse ?-I think that what they say is very often true. _ I have no evidence to prove that it_ is not so. · _

-4090. Have ever -thought of anything that would improve " Anti-shouting" would do away with a lot of the trouble. 4091. You would be in favour of that '?--Yes, I would.

Rev. Arthur White, Chaplain, Perth____: -

4276. What do you think about .the habit of ?."-"

is a good habit that has been a bused. 4277. Would -you encourage it ?-::In Australia " shouting ' '-leads so r·directly to excessive drinking that I should prohibit it; but it is a good ·_ habit abused. -The Most Reverend 9harles Owen Lever- Riley, Archbishop of Perth and Anglican _ _ -. : -

4345! From your pers_ onal observation: · do you think that drink has percept­ ibly interfered with the efficiency of our troops r -SJightly. _ I -have no iigures to give you. - The District Con1mandant gave you figures, but 1 am speaking from observation. Men come down fron1 the country tp Perth, and they ha ve not many friends here, and get into trouble. If we had an "anti-shouting," law nine-tenths of ' the trouble would be done away with. I am sorry to the extre1;nists will ­

not us to secure an "anti-shouting'' law. They want absolute prohibition, and nothing else. _ ·

4346. You are' strongly; in favour of ah "anti-shouting" law) -Yes. I have fought all I could for it. _ J'he Chief Commissioner ! n London says that " anti­ shouting" there has done a great deal of good. - . 4361. The Committee . quite_ recognise that, and they know that the soldier is the better citizen,. since _ he has offered -his services to the country. ·suppose that as a nation, for four or five years, or until our soldiers have been demobilized_and repatriated, we were prepared to make th,e sacrifice I have· suggested ?- I wquld say, " Why not, make half the sacrifice and prohibit" shouting " ? " That would do

aw.ay with an immense amount of evil. There should be no griev{:tnce if we had an "anti-shouting" law. Under such a --:- law a man could get a drink -if he paid for it himself, and he be without any, . . . . _ . ' ) _. / .

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., .. . --. . - . ' . . .. , 4388. Some doubt lias beeh expressed as to whether an "anti-shouting" law could be enforced. Do you think there would be any great difficulty in enforcing it ?- Not after a short time. The-vast majority of the people of Australia are law­a biding people. , 4409 . . As 'the number of men who are prevented by drink from going to the Front is so small, would it not be better if we left things as they are ?-No. I say give .us an "anti-shouting" law. Let us try that. I cannot understand is that .., · people who want extreme measures will not /a§sist us to secUre the carrying of rate measures which would be acceptable by the body of the people. Major Charles Henry Lamb, Staff Officer of Embarkation, Fremantle- Do you think it would be a good thing to have an "anti-shouting" law ?L_lVIost decidedly I do. 4558. · You think a good deal of drinking is cal!_sed by the practice of " shouting" my opinion, a great deal of unnecessary drinking is due to the/ practice of " shouting." ·4559_ Were you in London while the "anti;.shouting'' law was in for ce ?- Yes. · · · 4560. Do you think it had a good effect. ?- Yes. I saw it in operation at J Salisbury, where it was very rigidly enforced: Most of the men from the .camp went t o: Salisbury when they wejre on leave. I - • . - "\. 12. Professor the Reverend E. G. Mcintyre, Moderator-General of the Presbyterian Church and Pr_ofesst>r of Sydney University, who· is in charge of the Recruiting Campaign in ·Sydney, was of the opinion"' that one of the most would be an" Anti-Shouting" Act, which would be to civilians as well as to f'Oldiers. If that were not done Parliament would .almost fail _ criminally the interests of Australia. 13. witnesses examined were content to reply. in the affirmative to the question "Are you in favour of 'anti-shouting."' . . -_ Theze were also a number of witnesses. who expressed themselves to be in favour of · an ·"anti-shouting" law, but declared that it could not enforced, and could easily be evaded . . . The . only direct opposition carp.e from witnesses representing the Licensed Victuallers. On such a question, the opjnions of those isolated as they are, might be accepted -with reserve. The Reverend Arthur Ernest White, whilst in favour of -"shouting," was constrained to admit that it was a good habit abused, and be prohibited, as it led to excessive · drinking. . ·As- to the statements made by witnesses tha47 an" anti-shouting'' law could easily be evaded . and would 'therefore be ineffective, the evidence of experienced men shows that legislation of this character .in England has proved most efficient and satisfactory in its results (vide evidence of 'Brigadier-General Forsyth, and Captain Blackburn, · V.C., quoted "above). -14. After fully weighing the evidence- in connexion with this question, your Committee consider that under all the circumstances it would not be ·exacting too great a sacrifice from the community if tne practice of " shouting " were illegal. RECOMMENDATION. -15. Your - Committee recommend that "Anti-Shouting " regulations · under the War Precautions Act be brought into force similar in effect to the regulations under the New Zealand War Regulations Act, which read as follows:-L In these regulations-/ " Licensed premises " means premises irf respect of which a publican's or an accommo­ license is in force under the Licensing Act 1908 ; and includes the premises a chartered under that Act, and a:q.:f place in which intoxicating - hquor may _ be sold1n pursuance of a conditiOnal hcense under t4at Act: " Licensee " means- the holder of any such license, and includes the secretary of any such chartered club : " Bar " means . a pu.hlic or on lic·ensed pr.emises ; and includes any part of such .Is or exclusively used for the sale, supply, or consumptiOn of IntoxiCating hquor : "Bar-attendant" means any person employed or serving in any capacity in a other than the licensee. • . / . · ' I

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2. The following acts are hereby declared to amount to treating within meaning and for the ·purposes of the War Regulqtions _Amendment Act 191_6, and these regulations:- , - (1) The act of any persop. who directly or indirectly- .

(a) Pays, or undertakes or offers to pay; -or -- - . - -

(b) Gives or. lends, or offers or undertakes to give or lend money with which _ to pay- _

for any intoxicating liquor sold or to be sold on licensed premises for consum­ tion on or abOl}t those by any other than the .person first

mentio_ ned:

(2) The act of any person who purchases intoxicating liquor on premises, and inyites or · permits any other person to consume that liquor on or about those premises : - ,

(3) The act of any person who on licenseP, premises purchases or offers to purchase intoxicating liquor with intent that it shall be consumed on or about those premises by any other_ person : . .

(4) Any otheract done by any person with intent that any other person- shall consum-e - on or abou! licensed premises any intoxicating liquor other than liquor purchased and paid for by the consumer with his own money., Money lent or given to any person upon licensed premises, or_ lent or given to him elsewhere With intent

that it shall be spent in the purchase of intoxicating liquor, · shall, for the of _ regulations, be deemed not to be his own money.

- 3. Every person who does _any act which amounts to treating commits an offence these regulations. , . . _ · _ 4. Every person who · on or about licensed premises receives or_ consumes liquor in respect of which an offence against these has been committed by any other person shall himself be of an offence . against regulations . . - _ , . 5. Every bar-attendant, or servant of a licensee who knoWJngly sells, supplies,. -or receives payment for any intoxicating. liquor in respect_ of which an offence against these regulations has been or is intenaed to be committed by any othe{ person shall himself be guilty r of an offence against these regulations. 6. / Every licensee or bar-attendant who .permits the commission on the. licensed premises of any o:t!ence against these regulations shall himself guilty of an offence against these regula- . tions . .- - · _ 7. Every licensee on whose licensed premises any offence is committed - against these -:- regulations shall be to have permitted that offence; and shall be liable accordingly, unless he proves that it was committed without his knowledge, acquiescence, or-connivance, and __ that he took all reasonably practical lr!-easures by way of personal supervision or otherwise to prevent the commission of offences ,.against_ these regulations. . _ 8. (1) Every bar-attendant, other than a member of the family of- the lice11see, who is convicted of an offence against these regulations_shall be disqualified for the period of six 1nonths thereafter from being employed or in any capacity in or about the smne or any other licensed premises. . ·-(2) If any person while so disqualified is en1ployed or serves in any ca-pacity in or abQut any licensed premises he shall be guilty of an offence against these regulations. 9. If in any prosecution for an -offence against these regulations the produced-by the infor!llant or the facts as admitted are sufficient to constitute a reasonable cause of suspicion that the is guilty of- the offence charged, the burden of proving that the offence was not committed shall lie upon the defendant. 10. For the purposes of these regulations the supply· of intoxicating liquor .. for a pecuniar-y consideration on the premises of a chartered club under the Licensing Act 1908, sha)l be deemed to be a sale of such liquor. --, 11. (1) Nothing in-the ·foregoi11g regulations shall apply to the supply; or consumption of , _ liquor as part of a meal served and consumed t!po;n the licen._sed -premises than in· a bar thereof. • · · (2) ·" Meal " means a not earlier than noon and not less substantia( than an ordinary mi4-day meal. -

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,. . ·, _ 12. :Nothing in the foregoing regulations shall apply to any act of treating on lice:n_ sed .

premises (elsewhere tha_ n in a bar thereof) by a boarder or other person bona fide resident on those -premises .. _ ·

, · 13. No wo1nan (other than the licensee, or a servant of the licensee, or a-member of the· licensee's f_ anlily) shall at any time after six o'clock in the evening enter or remain in the bar of any licensed premises or loiter a?out the entrance t9 any such bar. .

_ ·(1) Every constable may at all times by day_ or and on any day of the week,'

enter Without warrant::- . - ! • '

(a) Any licensed premises; _ or - .

(b) -Any prelnises on which he suspects· that any' offenc·e against these \

regulations or against the provisions of the Licensing Act relative to the . . 1 safe .liquor by-unlicensed persons, has been or is about to be ' ·I comnutted- · . - - · -and may search the sajd premises-and every part thereof, and r.nay seize any intoxicating liquor found on any premises so entered ot4er than licensed premises. . (2) Every person who resists or obstructs a constable_in the of the powers so conferred upon him,- or who fails or refuses to afford to a constable immediate entrance to any such premises or to any part thereof, shall ·be guilty of an offence against these regulations, and shall be liable accordingly. _ - . 15. These regulations shall be read together with and deemed part of the War Regulations of the lOth day of November, 1914. · /" - · _ - · JOSIAH THOMAS, - The Senate, Chairman. 18th· April, 1918. ..

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MIN-UTES OF EVIDENCE · UP 27TH MARCH, 1918.

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AL1ld , Willi rtm George . .

Bain , Police InRpec tor William . . Bet hune, Rev. J ohn Walte r Bird, Dr. Frederi c Dougan Blackburn, Caj)tain Ar thm Seaforth, V.C. ­ Bramwell, Albert York Brewis, Captain Charles Ric3ttrd Wynn , RN.

Brooke, Police Sergeant Arthur Edward .. Brown, Corporall\filton Goe t·ge Butler, Rev. William Co rl ey Clark, Colonel Walter John Co cks, William Edward Coombs, Provost Sergean t Willi am

Cooper, Captain George Cor bett, l\fajor Hugh Annan Courtney, Colonel Richard Edmond Cummings, George He{lry Sydney

David, Arthur Maddock Davies, Captain H enry Ch arles Dobson, Henry Dugan, Rev. Charles Clifford Duguid, Dr. Charles Duncan, Horace Edgar Ebeling, l\{ajor Gus, D. S.O. E llis, Frederick Samuel Forsyth, Brigadier- General John Keatley Forsyth, Rev. Sa muel Fotheringham, Captain William Gu,y , Albert Edwa,rd . .

Giblin, Colonel Wilfrid Wanostroch t, C. B. Gill, Police I nspector Thomas . . _ Godd ard, Captain Thomas Herbert Gorman , Thomas Guest, Captain Horace Far East

H allett, Senior Constable Sa muel John H eppingstone, Li eutenant Charles Rober t H ill , Lieutenant-Colonel Alfred William . Hurst, Lieutenant J"ames Abraham

LIST OF vVITNESSES.

T'agc

75 3S 14 ::>

49 L14

26

108 1fl9 G:> 100

10 6

170 211

.. 165,206 90 35 79 124

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224

212 J l

205 139 150 69 225

96 127 93 201

184 31 189 15-1

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.Jacoby, A rthur Wellington J ohn , Licu tenu,nt Benj amin L tHnb, J\bjol" Charles H enry L onergan , P oli ce Inspector .Tolm H orace

Macintyre, :Righ t Rev. R onald George Mc Clemans, Rev. Can on W. J. l\fcNicol, :Rev. Donald l\feRac, Duncan Newell, Dr. J ohn Ad rian 0 ' H alfo ra n, _Police Inspec tor Michael Poulso n, Charles Thoma,s Priestly, Arthur Henry Riley , Archbishop Charles Owen Lever Ralph, Frederick Hem y R oberts, Sist er Grace

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Robinson, Si st er Au gu sta I sabelle Moore Roche, Senior Inspector Mi cha,el Gu bben s R ogers, Lie utenant- Colonel Ri chard Sanders Room, Captain Willi am Hart .. Rya n, Lieutenant Matthew John Seager, Mrs. Alexand er

Sellenger, Police Sergean t Willia m Charles

Shoobridge, Margaret R eade Sims, P oli ce-Sergeant Arthur J ohn

Stead, F1_oren ce Storey, Lieutenant J a mes Oli ver Vance, Dr. Willi am Booker

Walden, Colonel Frederick J a mes Walsh, Lieutenant H e'\-bert Weedon, Hardwicke Wellington, Police Sub-Inspec tor Stephen

White; Rev. Art-hur

Williams, Brigadi er-General Robert Ernest

Woodfull, Rev. Thomas Staines Brittingham Wooh_)ough, R ev. George Young, Sub-District -Na val _ Officer Francis J ohn

Page

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SA.LE OF INTOXICANTS SELECT

MINUT_ ES OF

• (Taken at MellJourne.) WEDNESDAY, 30TH JANUARY, 1918.

Present:

Se:n,ator THOMAS, Chairman; Senator Bolton Senator Guy

Sena,tor Buzacott Senator Rowell."'

Senator Grant

Robert Ernest Commandant, examined.

Williams, Brigadier-General, Acting 3rd Military District, swol'tl and

1. By the Ohairman.-Oan you state the number of men that have volunteered and been accepted in Vic­ toria ?-Owing .to the rush of men in the I

question if records have oeen well k:ept, and m some camps storms distributed documents over the country side, but according to, the figures supplied to me 106,288 men have enlisted and been accepted.

2. H ow many of t1 hose have not been sent . to the 1(},000. .

3. Out of that 10,000, would many have been In­ valided back if they had been sent away?-They would be men either medically unfit or under t he standard of height or chest measurement.

4. Wer e an,y of those deserters?- The 10,000 may include deserters, but I have a separate number them. There are two descriptions of men, the medl­ cally fit, who should go to camp, and the 1?-edically un­ fit; whom we do not take to camp, or who If he does get to camp very soon disclo ses there some p_hyswal lmper­ fection, and is then discharged. Approx1mately, those

found medically unfit after acceptance would be about 10,0DO. 5. What are the number of deserter:s out of the

106,288 ?-I have an account 4,930 but

these fi.gures, again, are approxm1ate, because m the early staoes there were so many more men than we wanted that it was quite easy for a man that was not wanted to go away. He deserted, and there was no

record kept of it, just as a great many men were told to go away from the camp, because they were not

wanted. There was a process of selection, and the best were taken out of an increasing number. We 1ssued warraU:ts for- those 4,930 deserters; we have executed

warrants for the arrest of 2,429 of them. In the other cases the warrants have been withdrawn, because the ·men h ave returned or for some other reason. ,

6. Had drink anything to do with those desertions?-­ With some, but n ot with a speoi.a.lly large number. It would be just the average percentage. 7. Do you think the effic1ency of the Arm:y has in any way lessened by a number ?f the soldiers

drink ?-Any man who takes drmk or Im­

moderately lo ses his efficiency, whether he IS m the Army or out of it. ·

8. Has there been a perceptible num-ber of men in the Army who through drink have lessened the effi­ ciency of the general Army ?-I should say, not beca':se of their being in the Army. They were probably m­

temperate before they came. to us.

EVIDENCE.

9. Because of theii: drinking and being in the Army have they lessened the efficiency of the Army?-Not of the general standard, because they are dealt with and eliminated. I do not t hink they bring clown the standard of the Army itself. ·

10. If a certain per cent. when on leave of an evening indulge in drink, are they as fit the next day for drill as if they had not ?-No. 11. If only ·5 per cent. of those who were off indulged,

would they in any way interfere next day with the drilling of the -others ?-They would not, but many of them would be a ch at·ge upon our medical service. Some of them would not be fit for drill. Those that were

fit for drill would have to drill. 12. Would men who had indulged, perh aps not so much that they were not fit -for drill at all, but to a

certain extent, interfere with the efficiency of the drill next day by being with the others ?-I should think moderate drinkers would not. W e eliminate the sick man and the other has to do the same as the r est. He may' suffer or feel the drt l mo re, but, honestly, r ... do not think he would interfere with the others. Poss1bly

an Instructional Sergeant-Major, who is handling men every qay, may be able to give you a more expert

opinion on that question t han I could. 13. Can you say of your own personal knowledge that a number of Australians have left for the Front, who have been in no way under the influence of drink, but have come back to us with drink a curse to them?-I ' have not sufficient personal grip of individual cases to

be able to say. 14. I s it a fact that when ships are returning with wolinded so ldiers the hotels in the ports where the ships stop are clo sed by order of the military authori­

ties?-Y es, if it is not a terminal port. If it is a por t

where men go ashore for an hour or two the hotels, or some hotels in immediate proximity to the wh arf, closed. If it is a terminal port and men are gomg

ashore· permanently it is obviously absurd to close the hotels against them. 15. Why are the hotels temporarily closed at other ports of call?-When men are coming back, some of

them unsteady and with " money to burn," the custom _ of the country being to offer a little hospitality in the ferm ot shouting, may take more than is good for them, and that does not help them on their ro ad -to recovery. Then there is the question of the crews of the ships. If

they can get asl1ore and get drink at a place quite close to •the ship they are apt to be troublesome and unsteady, and sometimes they do nnt go back to their ship. 16. Then the Department has found it an advantage

to the r etumed soldiE!r and to itself to have t he hotels closed in those circumstances ?-Under certain condi­ tions it is a great advantage. 17. Were you Commandant in Victoria before the hotels closed at 6 o'clock- that is, before October,

1916 ?-Yes, I h ad fourteen .months under the 9 o'clock closing. 18. Has there been less trouble with the soldie,rs in the camps since the hotels closed at 6 o'clock than be­

fore ?-Yes, but I can say· thatl the soldiers can still get drink after 6 o.'clock ; I wi ll no.t say that they

get it at hotels, but they get 1t. Of course,

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during the last five or SIX months the numlH-'r

of in camps has been relatively small, an <;I one

must not. dogmatise: in contrasting the diSiorders of twelve or eighte-en months ago with tihe a,ppare·n.t pas­ sivity of the present time. I am satisfied that the

closing at 6 o'clock has reduced the amount of disordnr amongst soldiers as it has done amongst civilians. _

bhe y ounger men ne·ver think of it, and never want it, a nd the t emper a t eness o£ the younger m en in t h e

s:ervice is remarkable. 29 . Do you know, from thin gs coming under your notice o- ffi cially as Commandant, of any cases where the tran spor ting of our soldie-n; or operations at the F ront, have been l?ndangered through qrinking on the part of office rs ?-No. I know there, have wen

d i"fficulties thr ough crews of tra n sports and other ships drink ing , but those difficulties. have -been transitory.

19. Have you se:en in the pape·rSr complaints by re­ turned soldiers of their t.reoatment by the Gove,rnment or by private employers ?-Yes. - 30. H ave any ot;fice-rs been cashiered or by

you '?-I h ave dem ob:ilized som e, and have taken away at leas i:J one man's commi ssion in the Australian Im­ peria] because of u"'nsteady habits·. I could not

demobilize an Australian Imp e-ri a l Forces man, bu t I can d em obilize a Home Service m a n .

20. Do you kno;w -of any case·s where drink has been one cause, if nob the: chie-f cause, of making it for the Government or employe-rs. to find con­

tinuous employment for some of the men who hav-e been dis:charged think it would be quite pos,s1ble, to find illustrations of that,, but I have: not ve-ry many cases in my mind. I know one case of a returned soldier,

a very decent fellow, who could not control his desire for drink. He himse:lf applied for a Home Service:

31. B y Colonel R ow-ell.-Was n ot thf1,t man vir­ t ually cashier ecl ?-N ot specifically . I· could see he was ui1steady, an d tord him thati I could not r ecommend him to go to the Front under t h os:e conditions. I

sa.id he could res-ig n, or I would court-martial him; h e

. position where he could not ge_ t drink, and I h ave put him in a place where it i SI very hard for him to get it:. had a wife and family here·, and h e 1:esigned. 20A. Is he satisfactory the·re 1-He has boon the-re only a week. If he is. not we will find some: other

place. Of course, he might he a similar case if he

were in civilian life. I should not say that s:oldie.ring was the cause. .

21. Do you know of any cases where ret:urne·d men have found it difficult to ge•t employment because. of drink ?-I have had to demobiliz·e officers because they "We·re unsteady, and they were officers who had served,

but I have had to demobilize more: officers who have not _ served. were· c-itizen officen;, caUed up for camp

duty. The same thing apjlies also to men. _If re-

turned men called U!{) for Home_, Service: duty drink and neglect their work we. have to "out" them. .22. You have had considerable e·xperience' _in civil life?-Yes, I have- been a SJoldier s-ince I was

eighteen, and I am sixty-two· n

quest.ion of the demobilization and repa.triat.iou of our soldiers when return ?-Yes.

24. Do you think it will be a. very difficult task?­ Difficult, but1 by no me-ans impossible. 25. Do you think the drinking habits. of a number of _ the men will add to the difficulty ?-=-I do- not

there are amongst the soldiers a greater proport,ion of unsteady men than among the same number of ciyilians. I d.o not believe soldiering has made. the' men unsteady If you ask if there are: a proportion of men who, be­ cause of their drinking habits, will he d_ifficult to handle in the matter of repatriation, I say "yes.,'' but if you were t:rying to re-e.stablish the: same number of citizens in civil life, you would. have the same number and the same difficulties. _ In fad, you would have more diffi-. culty in handling the· same numbe-r of civilians.

26. Have you seen in ta1e' papers the United

State·s of America it is illegal for a, publican to .supply Jiguor to a soldie-r in uniform?-Yes, but, I have no official information on the- subject. _ · 27. Would you favour such ·.a, proposal in

-:-If the liability to s,erve· we·re: t-he same. upon every­ body I should say "ye•s:,' but' when -you ask a manto give up his liberty to fight for his c;ountry, and put on him restrictions with regard to his socia] pleasures that you do not put on others, I question whether it is a

fair thing. - ·

28. Do you think it is not fair t1 o deny drink to a

soldier if a civilian can have, it ?-If the' soldie.r make·s fair use of it, I shou.ld think not; but if he mis.us-es it., he must be re-strained like· everybody els1 e·. We find arpongst the yo1mger men t1 hat the habit of drinking is dedin-ing. The-re is not so· large a per cent. who

-take drink among them as among the: -olde·r men. Many of th! older men whose hab[ts are fixed when they

come int-o the Army must have their be,er; many of

32. B y t he Chairman-.- 1-Iave you any suggestion t o offer the Committ·ee in the way of further restricting -drink so as to prevent it affe cting the effic iency of the Army, or making r epatriation mor e diffi cult, or would

you allow the traffic to r em ain a SJ it is a m u p

against this init.ial difficulty. Why ___, because a ma.n has been a soldier, must: we treat him differently from an ordinary civilian with regard to what may be called his enjoyments.? They may b e wrong enjoyments, but if the sold · er had not tak'en the oath of service and worn t h e uniform and helped to d efend his countr y he wo uld have been a civilian , and would not have been p ut·

under any restriction . It seems

the argument,'' that as t h-e soldie,r is. going to receive some re-cognition from his country he_ should su bmit to the restriction S! his country imposes:, hut if he had - not be-com e a soldier he ·would not have had any of

these restric.tions put1 upon him. vVe. have either t o or restrict the whole C(}illmtmity or put a

social disability on the soldie-r, which his brother , who never enlisted and neve1· did anything, has n ot to

submit to. - -

33. Do you think that the curse that -drink is prov­ ing to the soldiers is sufficient to induce t1 he gene·ral pu_hlic to say, " };--,o-r the, sake of the- soldie-rs we will have. more to eto w1th it" ?- If the genera l

publw- s,a1d tha-t , and the principle of "no more to do with it " -covered civilians as we-11 as soldiers, very handsome r esults be achieved. It seems. some­

times that one mt-lst h old a brief for the soldier, be­ cause one knows something of his ways, his tempt!a­ t-ions, P.,nd his peculiaritieH, and I have ' always_ been ve.ry re,luctant to .admit that the· soldier was any worse citizen th an the civilian . I h ave always thought that he was a better ·citizen beoausre of his service. - Now the subje-ct- of tlre venereal disease has a very important bearing on the, question o-f the efficiency of t:he Army.

34. Have a nuni her de.s:e-rted or her e11 inva-lide-d be­ C;luse o.f venere,al Yes.,. a number have de­

serted, and soiT1e h ave - been . invalided, but we h ave · been able, by looking after the disease prope·rly, to send from one- camp alone- over 6,200 men into the. fir- _ ing line,, cured, fi.t for ·ser vice, in g ood he-alth, and free froin infection.

35. Do you t1 hink the drinking ha-bits of the men helped to cause them to get into t.hat condition ?-I have asked Major T . eonder, the- Officer Command­ ing the vener·eal diseases camp, an able, sympathetic, fine man , a _yom1g soldier who s.erved in Gallipoli, and came

back her e, and is doing magnificent work-he was a lieutenant> -when I :first put him. into a respo-ns,ible posi­ tion in- the venereal camp-to give me tha-bene-fit o:f his.

21

opinion and know ledge. He. tells me that from 60 Jo 70 per cent. of the men (out of ,over 600 inquired into) -who h-ad venereal disease. are either teetotalers or dis­ tinctly temperate men. He said that only be,tween 3 per cent. and _4 per cent. admitted-and they were all quite frank with him, because they trust him-th-at

their association with- women in "- a diseased condition was caused through the.ir being drunk at time.

·Another ·good- officer who could give' y'ou evidence on this _ questio_ n is Major C. H :- "'J the, _Senior Medical

Officer at the camp. We have had an opportunity,

in the Venereal Diseases Can1p, of hai1dling men­ by the thQusand, and I do not think in any ot:her part has there been so much specializing on venereal disease as we have done·.· The hospital at Langwarrin is now one of t'he fines:t you could imagine ; it was a pigsty

when we took hold but now, it is ?- picture. Men

are brouglit back there to decent citizenship by a .9ourse of treatment that improve·s thejr health and menta1ihy also. At one time -the.y- ·were -treat.ed as ,depraveCl criminals. I was amazed and disgusted- and almosiJ

wild with annoyance when I s.aw what they were doing with the poor fellows they happened to have

become diseased, but all that is changed now. I have here a report1 from Sergeant McKenzie, the President of the Returned Soldiers Association, who js preser:t acting as cle.rk fo-r our Complaints Office'r. The, ques­

tion of drink amongst-soldiers was raised a little while -ago, and in response to my request his

Ser:geant lVIcKenzie sent; me the following :- -...... In reference to the matter of the drink evil as reg:u·ds sol­ diers returned and in camps, I wish to point out that. this

matter has- been given most seriou s consideration by the execu-tive offi cers of the' Returned Soldiers League. '

My own experiences amongst', the men show me that are much better in the last fm¥ months. Of coutse, when men - first come back after long periods abroad, for_ the first few days, no matter w hat r<2strictions are- put_ upon them, the

returned men will have_ a spree, and this is only natural; hut by fa1; the greater nm:l}ber of the men nov;r returning compare more favorably with the. ordinary citizen. Some of our pr(?minent men in this city a r e apt to get a

wrong as a fm\ 7 solmets in drink seen in the streets

are so conspicuous in their uniforms, that the great bulk of men are judged by- the standard set by comparatively few men. However, there 1s one pnase of the-question which should engage the attention of all public men, that i s t he question of · the inferior spirits, the prices of all v'{ell-known brands

it almost prohibitive to the average soldier , so he takes to

unknown brands, a nd his health suffers in consequence.' Being brought ·almost daily in COJltact with mien suffering - frolil shell shock, I have noticed that beer seldom harms them, while on the other _hand a small quantity of spirits drives them

·almost_mad. Strange to say, a ·great n'lany m en returned_ )rom active service drink it neat without water or soda. _

. vVhilst abroa,cl, when we had wet canteens in which beer only was served after a hard day's training., there -was very little trouble in 'camp; but when they got into town, spirits beil!g the main drink, there was trouble evervwhere.

' I give an example: A number of go into a hotel and ·

start drinking . When they are leaving, on e " Let's

take some with us." Beer bottles are too conspicuous, so

spirits are mentioned. _ As I stated before, well-known

brands are almost unprocurable, so many buy a bottle of fire water, and as tli.is is generally taken neat serious trouble must be the result. With spirits restricted, and 6 o'clock closing, and

supervision by the police over sly-grog and a determmed attempt by the Governmentt to solve the hght labour problem, I am sure that most of our derelicts will speedily disappear, as the men, if they .cannot find suitable brood over their

condi-tion, and find solace h1 drink. _ However, I can only say that witli the exception of men

recently returned,_ the bulk of who for

any length of time are fast becommmg useful c1t1zens, our orvanization hope that with the help of all decent c1tlzens we will still further minimize this condition of our

returned fighting men. .

36. By Senator Bolton.-Does t he location

of camps !}ear cities or towns offer facilities or en­ couragement to soldiers to indulge in liquor, with con­ sequent loss of discipline big city or town

offers facilities for _ the sale of liquor, but the soCial pleasures which the men derive in othei· respects quite

--

counterbalance that disadv.antage. :Men like, when they have time, to visit their friends or places of amusement. I think we get better results from them if they are near big cities than if they are away from. them.

37. Do the crime records show the percentage due to indulgence in intoxicants ?-There -are some cases due entirely to drunkenness. 38. Do_ the records show them?-Yes; if a man rs charged with

39. Can we be furnished with those figures can

have all the charge sheets gone through and get an estimate of the cases of drunkenness. ' 40. Are these absentees from emharka.t.ion as a ru1e .:___Yes.

41. Are they generally unavoidable ?-Not always. We have -always reserves at the pier ready to take the place 6f men who are not there. 42. What per cent. of those cases is due to indulgence in intoxicants ?-A very small percentage. The cause is generally the home or the brothel.

43. Have not returned men a period of leave before they are discharged ?-Yes, fourteen days if the man is fit for discharge. If he is a patient, the period is

longer. .

44. Is it found that indulgence in liquor creates any difficulties in finalizing. the cases of such men for dis­ I should think in some cases. A man who,

vvhen on final leave, becomes intemperate reduces his physi'eal condition, and we never ,discharge a man un-/ less ne is fit. 45. In the military effort th-at the Commonwealth is

called on to make, would the efficiency of the people · and of the Military Forces be increased by total ab­ stinence· from the use of alcohol?-It must in degree, until peeple find some otner form .of indulgence. . A man who is, not intemperate is nearly always a better workman-than the man who is. ,

46. By Senator Grant.-Oan you tell what percentage of the crews failed to re-embark, or gave trouble, on the transpqrts after the clo_?ing of the hotels_ at seaport . towns, compared with the number prior to' that ?-I .., can hardly answer that questio:J?,, but you can get the

information from Captain Brewis, the transport naval officer of this port. We made inquiry of him, and in the co-urse of his reply he sa,id, "Excessive drinking whilst in port, especially immediately prior to pi·oceed­ ing to sea, is the one and practically only detriment t,o · an efficient trooping service. This applies to crews

vessels emplqyed troopships and hospital ships." 47. How many officers and men have you demobilized on account of their drinking habits ?---I can get the figures for botli officers and men, but I should , think

it was only five or six -officers in two and a half years'­ command. If I knew an officer was at all unsteady h e did not stay forty-eight hours in the camp. 48. You say that although the hotels ·are closed at

6 o'clock men on leave min still get drink after that hour ?-Men can occasionally be seen unsteady at 9, 10, 11, or 12 o'clock, and they cannot last in that con­ dition from 6 o'clock.

49. Where did they get it from ?-They say they get it at sly grog shops, but one can never get them to show-where the sly grog shop is. ' ,

5.0. By Senator Buzaco tt.-Oan you give any idea of the differ ence in the per cent. of those who failed to rc­ embark before the hotels were closed, and since then, when the transports have been coming through ?-We nearly always gather up here five or six soldiers who should have gone on with the troopship to New Wales or Queensland.

51. What is the experience in Fremantle or; Adelaide, where the hotels are closed?-we have no recora, but I daresay I could get an idea of the. number of men left behind. If a man is drinking he will prol;>ably not

care whether he misses his boat or not, but with every ship there will be :five or six left behind in any case. We must allow for human nature in its various mani -:.. festations. /

52. Have you considered the advisability of estab­ lishing a canteen under military control at the different ports of call and their supplying drink for soldiers only, no civilians being allowed to be served there, instead o.f

closing the hotels ?-I have not thought of that, but it - is certainly a suggestion worth thinking over. That_ would be a canteen corresponding with the wet can teen in the British Army.

53. By Senator G·ny.-Oan you g.ive .approximately the per cent. of men who desert because of drink?­ No, because you cannot get from them their reasons for deserting unless you catch them, and one out of every two we h ave not caught. When we1 do arrest them

it is not very often that they give drink as the c'ause, it is generally that the wife or a child was ill, or that

tl1ey were called on to do .gomething which 1was quite decent ·of them to do. Very rarely do they admit that t.!J.ey were drunk. _

54. If it is shown that a so ldier is less efficient be­ cause of indulgence in don't you think it would

be wise to restrict him in the . use of drink, even though the civilian is left free?-You would be restricting a very small per cent. of the men as regards those liable · to be reduced in efficiency, and you would be restricting a .much larger percentage can take a little liquor

Without any harm to themselves or their job. You

would have to restrict a lot of mmi in order to restrict · the relatively few. I do not say it should not be done, .but a man in civilian life is not working for himself ?r his. but _for his country and his people, and

If .he Is not domg his work efficiently there is as much reason why h e should ..... be restricted a S1 there is for re­ stricting the soldier. · · _55. By Senator Colonel Rowell.-What action do you­ take in Victoria in regard to the1 closing of hotels; at ports of call?-The restrictions are arranged if pos­ sible, to prevent the ships' crews and the on the

ships from becoming intoxicated before the time the ship is due to leave. If the is in the bay

for .two or three days we do not close the hotels for

that time, for that would be obviously a serious inter­ fere·nce with what1 is ·a.t. ,present a legitimate trade·. But if men have two or three hours' leave, we stop them dpnkmg close to ship. If they want drink they

have to g? furtlrer Inland, per);laps to the city itself, and that, m a sense, acts as a limitation. The hours1 a.re with idea of not the men the oppor­

tumty of gomg on board before the ·ships sails with their skins full of liquor. Is there not a greht deal more blame put on the

soldwrs than they are entitled to in· the matter of

drink, and is there not a great deal more detriment' to · the JVIilitary Forces in venerea-l disease than in drink? -I am of it. 'Y' e nave 4 per cent. incapacit_ ated by venereal d1sease until they al·e cured. Venereal dise·ase is a much wider and bigger issue than the drink question. The f\.ustralian is growing up fairly temperate, and If they contmue as they are going, it will not :r:p.atter much about prohibitioi1, for they will be a tem­perate people. While w_e always, or _nearly always, have 4 per cent. of our effiCient Austrahan Imperial Force fo.r venereal disease, the average in the populatwn_ of Melbourne, judging by exammatwns made, IS much highe·r. The disease reduces a man's efficiency, and tends to the begetting of or _mentally deficient children. In Sydney

22

the object of improving the condition of the men. We have reduced the time of treatment from ninety days to less than forty-five days, and when the men · are

allowed to leave the camp they go out as decent citizens, _and will not infect the other .sex. 57. Is the·re les·s of the disease· than the-re was two -years ago_ is not less; but, of course, there is

a more rigorous examination, and me·n have be.en en­ couraged by a more humane and wise·r dispensation to disclose their condition earlier. In t1 he early days if a man said he was a venereal patient the.re was no

more pay for him. We have altered that, and the

man gets two-thirds pay if he earns it, so that! he has not the sa.me motive to conceal until the las.t minute the that he is in. The venereal dis,ease ques­

tion the best thoughts o·f everybody who wants

to hel1 p the community to a better s.tatle. According to Major Conder's report., out of 620 men questioned - at Langwarrin, · only admitlted that they

were under the influence. of drink when they contracted the dise,ase. _

58. By Senato1· Lt.-Colo1tel Bolt01'b.-ls it not a fact that! because the, men are· in camps near cities and towns, etnd can mix more' fre_ ely amongs.t the women , a great deal of that trouble arises. they did not

meet " women of the town," they might meet other women, and still become infected. 59. If the camps were· locat.ed in place·s where they could not associate with women, wou-ld not the trouble

be avo.ided would be' grante.d le·ave· to go home.

I put a camp in Royal Park, and the behaviour of the men the.re was excellent. The married men could go to their homes. once or twice a week. · The popularity of that camp was _ so great that men in ·other camps

asked to be sent ther:e. We could not give the married men leave and de,ny it to the1 single men. On the

question of vene·real diseas1 e, Major also state·s

in his repod ta1at of the men admitted into eamp in 1916 only .about 14 per cent. contracted the, disease at brothels, and in 1917 the pe·roentage· was. 34 per cent. 60. By the Chairman. - Do. I unde.rstand t1 hat you practically advocate that nothing more S!hould be done in restricting the' sale of liquor unless the' general pub­ lio are also restricted 1-It would be, a fair t1 hing if the general public were' restricted when the soldier is. ann it would not do either of them .a.ny har:m.

61. You would advocate a further restriction which should apply to every one., but yon would do it, for the sake of the soldier ?:-I would do it for the Slake of

both. The civilian needs restriction quite. as much as the soldier, and. more so, because' the' soldie.r under a oo.rtain amount of r:e's1 traint., which tihe

habit of restraint. ' I have neve·r been able to ma.ke

up my mind whether I am in favour of we·t canteens for grown men or not, but I am absolut!e·ly against them for youths brought compulsorily into camp for training. To a, grown man who is in the liabit of

taking 'his ,pint o.f beer during his day's work, it does no more harm than a cup of tea does to another man. We have not had we·t canteens iii the Australian lmpe·rial Force eamps, but the men have had access. to hotels, and the•re has be,en re1atively nqt_ more intemperafwe tlhan there would be in the case< _of a civilian popula-tioo. ·

62. In- vie·w of Mc:Keuzie,'s report, do you

Hiink the abolitio'n of the· us.e of spirituous liquo·rs en­ tirely for civilians1 and soldiers would be 1-

I think it. would be a good thing, but ligfiti iiles

and wines of tl1e country should be available for

those .., who can use them. te·mpe•rately. The spirits ce·r-tainly drive men wild.

. there IS a hospital for congenital idiots, and it is believed that a·t least 70 per cent. of those are such because their parents were suff.ering from syphilis or gonoTrhcea. We have made a thorough of the subject l,l.ere, with ·

63. By S enator Gra:n1 t:. - Does not the

quality of the spirits now supplied cause them to ha.ve a worse effect than wen matured spirits would have 7-That is Se'rgeant: McKenzie's opinio11, and he knows

\

. f

. ,

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about the -;;en tihan I do. The harsh,

sp1r1tS1 of the pre-sent day· are not advisable for men to use e.xoept ·in t4e _ utmost moderation. I have' been a temperate, ·man all my life,_temr"l'erate in · the

that in :nothing do . I run to exceSIS, but I have

never .been a teetotaler ..

THURSDAY, 31sT .TANUARY, 191 8.

Presen,t:

. Senator THOMAS,

Senator Lt. Bolton

Senator Buzacott Senator Grant

Chainp.an ; Senator Guy Senator Co( RowelJ ,

Arthur John Sims, First Class Victorian

, _ Police F'orce, sworn and examined. 64. By in...- charge at

Port you a knowledge of -what

has transpired J,n oonne,xion with the eii.1ba.rkation and disembarkation oC troops·?-Yes, since the ineeption of the war. '

68. When you speak of civilians, do you refer to

persons residing within the Port MeLbourne district, or to those conneeted with .the, work of embarKation T­ To residents and temporary residents of the Port Mel ' bourne d-istrict. · _

69. It would appear, from your figure·s, tihat when the time for the sale of liquor was redueed by two

hours, a gre,a.ter n um be.I" of soldiers were arrested ?_;_ During that time a greater number of soldiers -Wer& being emba.rked; there were· a great many thousands embarked during that pe·riod. ·

70. If a soldier was found the worse for liquor,

would you bring him before a Court, or see that he

was placed on hoard. the transport he was emQ

barkmg, and broke away on the line of mar'ch, or out of the ship, we would hand him back to the military or to the military police.-

71. By Senator Colonel Rowell.-The cases you have referred to cover onlv the soldiers arrested and brought be·fore the Court?-Yes .. - 72. I suppose those arrests would cover mAn · goinP"

about .in uniform, and not men _on the point of barkatwn ?-Yes. If a man about to embark wati

found in difficulties through drink, we would do wha.t we could to assist to have him put on board the trans­ port; but if ·he be.came a nuisance, we would interfere a,nd arre.st him.

· 65. Has any t_rouble arisen from the fact that

soldiers and members of the cre,ws of transports have been urider the influence of drink ?-In .one, or two in­ stances, an outward-bound transport has been delayed for a couple of hours through some· members of the

cre·ws getting ashore· and obtaining drink: \Vhen a p­ pealed to by the Naval and Military authorities; the police have in collecting the men, placing

them ?n board m order that the trPJ,n Siports· might get away m reasonable time.- , 66. Has there been any ,difficulty experienced as the result of soldiers ge.ttin·g the worse f·or liquor time ago, 'in the case of a transport that had come

from. the .other States, some. o( the"' men ·brought round to/ V1ctona hroke out of t.he ship. They tried to pas:s Uje guard at the· barrier at the town pier, where there · are from 8 to 9 fee't high. They were some-

73. By th e Chairrnan.-Of the, 43 soldiers arrested, some would be returned soldiers, not discharged, and still in ?-Yes. I have a return showing the

· offences w1th which soldiers who were arrested were In the majority of cases, they were oha-i·ged

with bemg drunk and disorde.rly, and unless they were charged with us:ing obscene language, they were

discharged by the- Court, or fined in a nominal amount . . One man waSJ 'charged with unlawful assault, hut was dismissed on that charge, and for an assault on the

police he was fined £2, or fourteen days. Two were

charged with shopbreaking and stealing; two others oharged with assaults on the police were ea.cli fined £5, or one month' s: imprisonment. Three .were charged with larceny, and two of these' were sentenced to three months' imprisonment. I conducted the cases; and, in the· majority of instance's, submitted the facti that

the men were returned soldi rs should be cons1idered , and . that havin.g been locked up for the night they had been sufficiently punish ed, and the bench deaF

. what notous for a time, but were and. again-

placed o?- board the transp _2rt. The' opiniop. I formed , at the time was t'hat the men had ob t ained liquor in Aydney, a11d had brought it with them on hoard the transport. That an isolated .case,· and there . is

ordinarily little or n.o difficulty. was early in the ­

war, when the madunery of embarkation was not in as good working order / as -it is to-day.- Embarkations U?W take at the new p1er. 'J2he troops are brought

from the. different camps, placed on board a train,

and run right up to the side on the pier. A

IS at the end of the pier, and no pe·rson

ts allowed on 1t. Consequently,. there are not now the facilitieS1 which during · tlie :first twelve· months existed for the passing of drink t o the troops whe·rt they were marched from town. or from the. Port Mel.bourne station to the. town pier.

n7. The new arrangements for embarkation have led to considerable YeSI, to a vast improve.­

ment. I prepared for your information a compa.rative return of arrestSJ at Po{t Melbourne of civilians and soldiers-during certain periods . From the 1st August, 1914, to ·the 1st July, 1915 , when the hourSJ for the

saJe of liquor in hotels were from 6 a.m. to 11.30 p.m., the number of civilians arrested was 234 , .a.nd the . nl.lmber of soldiers 4. From the 1st August, 1915 , t o the 31st October, 1916, when the hours of sale of liquor

were from 9 a.m. to 9.30 p.m., the number of oivilians arrested was 18.9, and the number of soldiers 24. F 'rom the 1st -November, 191_6, to date, the 30th January, 1918, when the hours of sale of liquor wer e from 9 a.m .

to 6 p.m., the number of civilians arr est ed was 137 , and the number of soldiers 15. These fi gures give a grand total of 603 persons arrested. of w h.om 5 60 were civilians, and 43 were soldiers.

with them. , Only this morning, a returned

soldier was before' the Court for having used threaten ­ ing words to his wife. The State War Council had p ut this man a green grocer's business, and gave him

the oprortumty. of making a good living. His wife complamed of his c

spent w1th undesirable companions upon drink. 74 .. A number of ships have returned with invalided soldierS!. Have y ou that any substantial per­

centage of these mvahded men have visited hotels, and the worse for fe,w do after they

given leave from the hospital. A t first t·he guards

were made: u p of lads from the Cit izen F'orces, who had , not t.he gnp to handle the m:en, s;ome by blustering got past H1e' guard, hut now with e·xperienced guards there are, few cases of the kind. · /

75. As a result. of bet ter supervision?-Yes. 76. Can y ou say whet h er drinking by soldie·rs at Port " Melbourne interfered with their e,fficien cy ?-I could notJ say. I slio uld assume that if men had become in­ efficient throug·h drink h ey would n ot be allowed to pr oceed by the milit ar y authorities. ·

7_7. \iV auld you say that indulgence.. in drink by m­ vahdecl men has been due to their being tlreat.ed, per­ haps, too by their friends?-Yes, there

· h as been mist aken kmdness ext ended to t hem. Only

..

24

I was inf_ormed--some returned men were

taken-- out to Malvern or Caulfield, and several returned 89. By S ena.to r Colo n el Rowell.-They are closed to civilians as well as to soldiers' ?-Ye-s. Hotels, lioons:ed and wine shops have t!o clos-e during the period

_mentioned in the order, which covers the- embarkation

, .-the worse for liquor. · -

78. From your personal expe·rience, would you say - that afte·r their first welcome returned men become quite normal in t1 he matter of drink?-Yes,, only a very or disembarkation . '

90. By the Chairman.-We have evidenee' that young Australians are extrem ely temperate, and ta1at drink­ ing by soidiars has. l:·een largely ·confined to the aider men. Would you, a s a police officer, support that

opinion ?-I concur.

smaJI number go to e·xcess. - . "'

79. I suppose you meet. quite a number of returned - soldiers out of work and out of money afte-r they have bee-n back for some time ?-Pe·rsonally, I have met very few. ,

SQ. \Vhere this is the case, would you say in-

91. Would you say that drinking amongst - soldieiD would be likely t1 o increase the difficulty ·of the prob­ lem of se·ttling t hem upon the land, _or finding employ­ ment fo-r them after £heir r eturn from the war?-In some casTes · it might, but1 a man who wishes to be in­ de;pendent and settle on the land will notl let drink trou hle _him.

- dulgence in drink had something to do with it ?-I have m entioned a case which was before the Court this morn­ ing, which arose through indulgence in drink, but t his man was addict Jed to drink befor e he enlisted .

81. Do you know of any other case of the kind

know of no caSie so pronounced. • 92. You think that would apply to -ot her occupations

also ?-Yes. 93. Do you consider a of men ad­

dicted to drink would make th e problem of the returned ·soldier a little more difficult to solve?-Yes.

82. If from beginning of the: war we had bee-n a

t_ eetotal nation, do you think that the e-ffic.iency of our Army would have been increased?-That is a very large order. I have' formed an favora.ble opinion

/ Of our Australian soldie-rs-. The men of our naval and - 94. But not. to any gre·at -ext:ent ?-=-No, not.

military forces are e·xtremely independent and demo­ cratic. - They -are not like the soldier, who,

subjected to rigid becoipes to some e•xtentl a

machine. We had a case some time ago ol a transport calling in here from Sydney with Queensland, New South and New Z-ealand troops on hoard. Some

- of thes1e men came ashore while the transport! was at Port Melbourne, and a number of the Queenslanders became boiste-rous and violent as the resu 1t of indul­

gence- in drink. 83. From yo ur experience only a, small percentage of ,our soldiers were aff ected by drink ?-A very small per­ . c-ent-age. What f!ranspired _:vhen they to Egypt and

other places- abroad, Ldo not know. ,

84. You are aware _that. a of men have been

i_ nvalided because they hav_ e- - venereal

disease, ?-Yes. -

85 . We have had -evidence from a soldier to fthe effect - that a ve-ry srriall per centage of men were• men who were under the· influence of drink when they -visited placeS! at -which they contracted tthe dise•ase, , He con­

sidered that the vast/ majority were total abstainers .• or exi 1remely moderate drinkers. Do you agree with thaP · -The matt'3r is not. one. which -has eo;ne· ' under my, notice·. There are' no . brothels in Po:rt. Melbourne, -

though I do not say there are' not. some immoral wome.n , there. There were a number some time ago, but. as

undesirables they -were not tole,rated. ' -

R6. Would you s':ty from yout: experience· as a -police officer t.hat the- se· unfort;unate, women owe thejr· position-.. to indulgence in drink ?-As tlhe result of my _experi­ anoo of year§ in t ,he police• force, I

would say that the percentlage re:duced to that position by drink is small as against the number of cases due to other causes. _

, 87. You may have noticed that in the United St'ate·s of America no hotelkeeper is permit-ted to su,ppiy drink to any man in -qui-form ?-1 was not 9-:wa.re· of thatt. B8. From your. do you consider indulgence

in drink is such a curs-e to soldiers as to lead you to ­

advocate anything of that kind ?_:Oh no. The· pet ­ cent-age of soldie·rs affect-ed by drink must! be ve-ry · small. In connexion with embarkations, in the firs.t twelve months, on different occasions orders were 'issued

by the State Commandant to keepers, of hotels on the - foreshore, and at a short distance from the pier, that

they were not to supply soldiers in unifo1:m with intoxi-cating liquor. Now, upon instruction by the, State '

Commandant 19 hotels, 2 wine shops, 2 licensed grocers, and 1 club in the district have to close up

certain periods, .

· 95. W

Australian soldiers, who left here steady sober m en, have on .their return shown themselves to have become addicted t o drink ?- I personally do not· know of any case of the kind. · Out of the ·many thousands of sol­ diers who have gone to the there might be some

of whom that could be said, but I do no.t personally know of ,any. Although the h·ot·els are closed, of

the soldiers get drink all the sanie. On the line of

march, or at the railway' station, _ they are often given -a bottle -o f beer or a flask of -whisky. A may say

to "J-Iere is a parcel for you." The sold_ier will

take it, and it_ may contain three -or four bottles of liquor. One man excited s1,.1spicion on the pier . · I . thought he was attemp·ting to get liquor on board for the troop·s, and, with. the concurrence of the naval .transport

I- got two-plain-clothes. to investigate

the matter. Half-an-liour later t4ey secured the man, · and took naif-a-dozen bottles of beer from him. At t'h0 end last month I saw a -line thrown out from a port-. lwle in the starboard bow of a vessel, and we found that

a man w_!w ' professed to be cousin of a soldier on board tied- a lir;te to a parcel, and we intercepted it

and mcamined the parcel; it contain_ ed a fl &''ISk of .Fhisky. The man was handed over to me by the military autho­ rities, was subsequently and fined 20s., with

£3 3s. costs. - :- -

Senator is the population of

Pof t MelbQurne ?-r-t is., roughly; about 13 ,000. Since the vvar it has -decreased by over 1,000 through enlist-/

97.- the first peri()d mentiop.ed by you, you have . -said that the number of civilians arrested was 234, and the- number of soldiers four. How many -of the 234 civilians arrested was under_the age of 18 years ?-I

th}nk only on'e or -two. . _ .

98. What is th'e adult population of :f?ort Melbourne? 9,000 __ -

99. Unless we know what prgportion the 234' civi­

lians arrested bears to the l!l:dult population of Port -bourne, it seems to me that your comparison with the number of soldiers arrested during the same period is . of J lO use ?-The 234 civilians arrested included resi­ dents of Port Melbourne and visitors from elsewhere, such as sailors. off ships in the: porfi. I should s<1y that the ma jority- of the civilians a.rrested were visitors ' to

P ort Melbourne, and not residents. -

100.- How many so'Idiers were embarked -or disem­ barked during -the period of months first refe.rred to, when the hours for the sale of liquor were from

25

6 a.m. to 11.30 p.m., and, according to you, four sol­ diers were arrested at Port Melbourne could not

- say, but there were some thousands of soldiers embarkerl during that period. 101. In the next period you mention, covering four­ teen months, twenty-three soldiers were, arres,tled and

189 civilia-ns. This was when the hours for the sale o£ liquor were between 9 a.m. and 9.30 p.m. It would appear from y our figures that the. earlier closing of the hotels led to increased drin-king. It is desirable that we should know whether a greater number of soldiers were embarked during the second period than during first have no record of that. At first, I should

say that about forty vessels left with on hoard,

the11 there was -a lull, and again a great number of transports left. . . .

1-02. In the third period mentioned by yeu, when the hours for the sale of liquor were' restricted fr.om

9 a.m. to 6 p.m., the numb-er of arrests _ were 137 civi­ and fifteen soldiers. As compared with the figures

for the firslt 13e,riod - this would seem to show t1 hat the earlier closing· of the hotels led to an increase in the - number of soldiers arrested for drunkeT -mess. Since you are unable to say the number ' of men who were

e11 lbarked and disembarked during the p eriod covered by your figures, it does not seem to me that they afford . the Committee any useful information whatever can give you no figures .of the number _of soldier s · em­

barked and disembarked. -1'03. You have referred to twenty..,four hotels at Port 1\ielbourne were issued for the closing of

twenty-four hotels. These are within an area extending · for about 6,0 chains from the town pier. I prepared a list of hotels within the municipality of :Port Melbourne for the Defen ce authorities. They issued their orders

upon that, and d id not ask me to make/any suggestions. 104. The order does not cover hote.Is further from the pier than you have mentioned Q.

1 o-5. Are places other than hotels, at which liquor is sold, obliged to close during the tlme covered by the order?-Yes, two licensed grocers and two· Australian wine shops. - " 1

- 106: By S enator Buzacott.-You have -that you know of no case of a man: not inclined to d6nk before enlistment becoming-addicted to drink afterwards. Do you know of any case of a man addicted to drink-before

he enlisted returning a sober and temperate No. - ·

107. You blame the drinking habits of soldiers chiefly to the practice of shouting-?-Yes, to the mistaken kind­ ness of their friends. 108. Would you say that as a rule it is the civilian population that is chiefly for drinking by

ret1:lrned Yes.

109. I have often heard -it stated that some retur ed soldiers are inclined to spend tJ1eir allowance on drink with their friends. Have you known cases of that kiud? . -I know of the case of a member of the Naval l''orce ­who is aadicted to drink, but I do not know what his h3.bits were in this regard before he went away. This Lahit c•f drinking has been brought under iny notice. si nc>e he returned. 110. You do not know of many of such cases?-No, only of the case I have mentioned. 111. 0 f_ the 43 soldiers arrested · for drunkenness during the periods to which you hav'e referred, would you say that the majority got drink at hotels, wine shops , or sly-grog ·shops hotels. When the hotels were closed at 9.30 p.m. and at 6 p.m. , some of Port Melbourne who made the acquaintaince of soldiers would purchase bottles of ale.- and other to entertain them. There we_ re many instances of that kind. One man who did that kind of thing was pre-

vente·d by the police from continuing to do it. I do

'not know what his motive was, as some o-f the_ men supplied were :evide.ntly l?,trangers to him. 112. By Sena1tor G1.ty.-You have re,ferred to the town pier at Port Melbourne, and to the railway.

The railway pier is the new pie·r that was recently

built?-Yes. 113. I understand that troops embarked at the ne,-.v pier are now brought by the t.rain right alongside, the · tranSiport, and are not brought into eontact with the

civilian po pulation is The trains are run

_right! up to the ship's side. The men a.re then

detrained for field · work-the calling of the roll, and so forth-and are aft_ erwards sent on board the trans­ port-: is a guard posted at a shO:rt distacnce from

. the end of the pier, and another at the end of the·

pier, to keep off the crowd wishing to sa.y farewell to . the soldiers until they have 1 been embarked. 114. There, is now no possibility ·of the troops being brought into contact with civilians while on

the way in the trains to the pie,r. 115. When the men were' embarked from the town pier, and were marched from the railway station on t o the· pier through crowds q_f people, they were ofte:: given parcels which might have, contained Yes, that is so _

116. The new· system of embarkation is a grec;t im­ provement upon that ?-Yes, it is very much more satisfactory. 117. Oan you -say whether, notwithstanding

earlier closing of the hote1s, dhnk is still obtainable h'' soldiers to a ·greater or less degree ?-You m ean after -

118. Yes is such a thing ·as a soft-drinks

bar, but that js simulv a blind. It is mv opinion, as

_ the result of obser-vation of various hotels, tha.t the soft-drinks bar is used only to thre-w dust in the ev e·"'· - of the' law. In my opinion, if it is desired to preven-t the sale of liquor after hours, the whole of the ·hotel

premises, including billiard rooms. should be closed. 119. You have made a comparison between the arrest of civilians and of s1oldiers . . It would a;ppe·ar from .., your 'figures that a .greater n.umher of sotdiers were

arrested during the period when the hours for the sale -of liquor were restricted. W auld this not he accou-nted for, to some extent, by the fact. that . during those

periods there were many more' men :in uniform _about than during the earlier Yes. _

120. By Senator Colonel Rowell.-The m ethod nov.­ - adopted for the embarkation of troops _is a _great im­ prove,ment on that aaouted in .the earlier stages Of the war?-Yes, the whole busine,ss is now in fine ordPr

.It is not necessary now for me to have the same numhe:­ of police in attendance as wa,_s required f.ormerl ·;, -

There was, in the earlier days, _g-reater excitement amongst the soldiers and their relatives than is an­ parent to-day. Some of_ t.he soldiers arres,te--d may have obtajned the-ir liquor in the city before. they came t ;" Port Melbourne. One man admitted t,o me that he had done so. If one did it, it might be assumed that

others did the same. 121. There is nothing to hinder men taking IV 1: on board the transport. bv putting it in their That is so. CI'he kits are not searched. · ·

122. Have you any knowledge of the conduct of the men on the it)ra.nsports I have . n0t

heard of any complaints of their :conduct on board the transports. 123. By S enato1' Lt.-Colond Bolton.-You have had many opportunities of witnessing the embarkation of troops

124. Have you seen any considerable of

troops under the influence of liquor when thev w0re being emba-rked 7-I have known to be under the

influence of liquor prior to their reaching Port M·el­ bourne. On the way from camp tchey have

•

obtained liquor along the line. The percentage o! men in that condition has been very small in proport.wn to the numbers I have seen p ass through Port Melbourne. __ 125. Of your own knowledge, can you say that the

drinking habit has been productive of a certain of crime and distress am ongst soldiers andr their de­ pendants '1-.N ot of my own knowledge.

/

26

126. From what you h ave seen, would you say that the mental condition of t he soldiers has been to a

greater or less extent aff ect ed by war ·

.._Yes, I should say that it had.

with a view to some alteration of the con­

ditions imposed. They were met by Brigadier-General Willian1s with the statement, in· effect, "You will want the emha.rgo upon the sale of liquor removed. · Do you want the 15-mile limit impo,sed ?" They grasped the situation at once , and said that they did not. He told

them to leave Port Melbourne alone, 9,.11d if they per­ sisted in their objection he would make a bigger field of it.

.140. By S enator Guy.-Has any h0telkeeper ' asked for compensation because of the prohibition of the sale of liquor during certain hours ?-One or two have sajd to me, '' Who is. going to com us for o·ur losws in

connexion with the cl osing up of our h!Jtels 1" have replied that they had better ask that questwn of the State Commandant. There is some difficulty due to the fact that whilst some o.f the publicans keep within

the four corners of the order, one or two others., although they close their doors, supply liquor " under the la-p ." That is -annoying to those who honestly comply with the order .

127. W ould you say that men so. affected · would be more readily brought under the influence of )iquor Yes, one drink might affect some of them. 128. Has it come under your notice _ that 1:1nder the restrietions imposed on . hotelkeepers, adulte.rated liquors are commonly so ld at ho t els, they are well

su pe•rvised by inspectors.. Ooca.sionaHy case-s of the kind .are brought before the. Court, but I belie-ve liquors are usually up to t he standard required. 129. There is a general suspicion at the present time . that ad ulterated liquors are supplied, and, that

methylated spirts are used was a man before

the Court 1a- few days ago who was said to be suffering from the effects of methylated spirits. 130. You a.re not aware that he obtained it in the

- way as sp-irits at an hotel ?-No :• I g>aw him only

when he was brought to the watchhouse. I do not

think that he obta.ined the methylated spirit·s at an hoteL 131. By Senator· the forty-three soldiers

arrested at Por t :Melbourne since the beginning of the war, how m an y were det 8;ined so long by the police authorities as to prevent them embarking on the trans-- ports to which they wer e allotted ?-No soldiers going

on active service wer e detained. Tiley were handed over to the military authorities or the military police. No man arrested was detained and prevented from going . or board his transport.

132. By the Ghairman.-The forty:three soldiers arrested includes invalided and returned soldiers?­ Yes. We did not detain any soldiers on the point of .

embarkation. 133 . By SenatOT Lt.-Colonel Bolton.-! that

the forty-three soldiers referred · to does not cover the whole of the soldiers who were guilty of indulgence· in · liquor. I presume that the police were kindly disposed towards the soldiers, generally, and did not unnecess9-rily harass them ?-That is so.

134. By the there anything you could ·

suggest which might be done to minimize even the small amount of mischief that now arises from the . indulgence ·by soldiers in drink. Do you think that the Government have fairly grappled with the ?-­

I think that they have.

135. If shouting were prohibited, would that mini­ mize the drink evil?-Yes., As I · have said mucli of it on the part of -soldiers, is due to the mistaken kind­ ·ness of their friends ..

136. Would it have a good effect upon -the com­ munity generally?-Yes, as the result of my experience and observation, I believe that it would. . 137. By Senator Colonel Rowell.-Have the hotel­ keepers affected complained of the closing of hotels by order of the military authorities ?-:-Yes.

. 138. Do they complain that they have thereby lost a lot of money?-Yes. They regard the matter in this light as I, do myself to some extent: They say ,that if the men wa:r;tt drink they will have it, and there is

to prevent a, man who will haye drink going -to

a hotel outside the closed area for it. 139. By the . Ch airman.-Your evidence is that the restriction . has tended to minimize the e:vil ?- A depu­ tation of the licensed victuallers waite'

141. By the Chairman.-Is the . complaint of lo se based upon , the loss due to the prohibition to supply -so]diers or to the general public?-To the general public.

142. The

143. Would you beal'l out that' contention 'During the twelve months) as I have said, there

was an orde.r issued on several occasions to the publicans not to s·upply p1en in uniform. Some publicans refused to supply men in uniform, with the result that men who had taken intoxic-ating liquor before1 they had- broken out. of the ranks1 considered that they should ge,t mo·re, and created distur bances1 .

144. By Senator the rents of the hotels

affected been reduced in consequence o£ the closing orders ?-I believe ·they have not.

Albert Edward -Brpoke, Sergeant ol Police, stationed · at Seymour, sworn and examined.

145. By tKe Chainna.n . - Are you stationed in t·he town of Se.ymour, or at: the military camp there the town of Seymour. . f\ . •

146. Have you been there Slnce the begmnmg of the war ?-I went/ to Seymour three days before the camp was opened there. 147. Wher.e were you stat.ioned before that ?-Ai Kew, and also at Y e"a. -

148. Have you had experienoe· of any_rnilita.ry cam p with the e,xception' of that atl f3eymol}d__,.....N o. 149. Were there any police s-tatione-d in the camp at Seymour ?-Thei'e have been two men stationed there sin about twelve months_afte.r the camp- was opened.

150. Would they be under you?-Yes. -

151. Could you say from yoi.1r own experience whe­ ther drink has in any way interfered with and working of the Seymour camp ?--I cannot speak of the conditions inside the camp.

152. How far i's tne camp from Seymour? - Throe '

153. The men in camp are allowed from time to time a certain amount 'of leave?-Yes; generally Saturday afternoon is a half-holiday 'vith t.he· men in camp. , 154. Some of them come· down to Melbourne?­ Usually men on leav-e go to Melbourne; but some re­

main at Seymour. 155. Does a large of the men spend their

leave in Seymour?-:-YeSJ. 155A. Since the camp was. -established at Seymour, has there been much drunkenness by t.he soldie-rs in the township ?-At one time there were aboutJ 22,500 me·n

27

-..encampt>•d at. 8eymour, . and there was a good of

drinking in the town at that time when the hot'els were allowed to remain open . until_ 11.30 ;p.m. I think

there wefe from twenty to thirty men locked up_ nea.rly ev.ery night in the week at th'at time. Thursday,

Friday, and Saturday nights were the worst nightls. ,

numbers at j:lhe bar\'!, a.nd the drink did not · seem to affect them until they got outside. Then it completelj knocked them ove·r. 171. Have had any experience ?-1-:o

but I have been thirtly years in the police force. 172. Do you think that_ the difficulties in a 'town Like Seymour would have been minimized if there had been a wet canteen in the camp 1-I think tha,t the

whole of the trouble in Seymour was due to there not be.ing a wet canteen in the camp. The majority of the­ rp.en who were drinkers were fa.irly well on in age, and if they could have got or two at . the camp

during the day under striet military supervision, they would never have walked the three miles into Seymour

156. C.an you speak of the ·effect of drink upon the drilling of the soldiers in camp ?-No, I had nothing to do with that. ' ·

157. The Seymour camp' is practically closed no•w ?-­ There .are 400 or 500 soldiers the.re, but the·re is talk of dosing up the camp. 158. Did t:he closing of the hotels at 6 o'clock reduce

the \amount- o£ drunkenness ?-It r_yduced the drinking considerably. - 15 9. Especially among soldierS!?-Yes. , 160. By Senatm· Buzacott.-From your experience of

Seymour, would you say ,that the majority -of the sol­ diers addict.ed to drink were men of middle· age?-Yes, the drinkers were generally middle-aged men. They were usually me!ll who came from the other States. We

had a great deal of tlrouble with the minetSI who came from New South •Wales. , T'he·y were• older men than the general run, and we·re very hard to deal with in

. for' the of getting drink. I am

1

positive of that.

173. By Senator Lt.-Colonel Bolton.-The closing of 'the hotels at 6 o'clock reduced the drinking consider­ ably?-Yes. 17 4. Did ·it lead to illicit dealing in liquor ?-There

has been liquor drunK after the closing hours, but

whe.t.her it was purchas. ':l-d before 6 o'clock, I am unable to say. In many cases men who from the camp

purchased liquor, b,ut whether itl was purchased at the hotels before or afte,r 6 o'clock, I could not sa.y.

oamp. Many of them were heavy drinkers. - Is there any sly-grog selling at Seymour

have not had any cases of sly-grog selling, but sinoo the closing of the· hot!els .a.t £ p.m. there ha·s been a good deal of drink obtained in hot.tle·s. Men who came into the town . early in the, afternoon would purchase liquor

and put it away; for thos1 e who came in later on. 162. How many wine shops are t1 here at Seymour?-Two. .

162A. :Pid the·soldiers frequent the hotels or the wine shops ?-Usually the hotels, . ·

163. By Senator Slaid that -at one·- time

there we.r·e ttwenty or thirt,y soldier_ s brought to t.he wa.toh.-house each night . -How did that oompare with , the arrests of civilians ?-We had difficulty in ge,tting the civilians to keep away from tihe soldiers. We found

that civilians drinking with soldiers g·enerally led to disturbance. 164. In proportion to civil ,population; were the

arrests amongst · civilians. · a.mq:J).gst sol- ..,

diers ?-They were greater amongst the soldiers. We very seldom brought soldiers before the 'Court. If they were, drunk the•y ·were locked ·up, .a.nd then h1uided over to the mili-tary autlhorities and taken out to the camp, _:vhere they were dealt with under military rule. They

were brought. before the Court only when they were charged with more, serious offences. 165. , Did the •earlie1' doffing of hotle1s Jnake any dif­ ference in tl-re• matter of ·arrests for

Yes, a conside.rable difference .. , • 166. Amon,gst civilians as well aSI amongst soldiers ? Yes. 167. Did the hotelkeepers obey the• l.a.w doubt

drink goes out of the hotlels during the prohibite•d hours, usually, I think, in bottles. 168. Have you any experience of civilians out1 of a feeling of to soldie•rs giving them drink?­

Yes, frequently. \Vhen soldierSI have been through ·they have been refused drink- a.t the l'llent rooms, a,nd tlhiSI has led to disturbance. The

soldierS! would often get civilians to g-e-t drink for tliem. ' A soldier would take 1s. or 2s . ·outi of his pocket aJ)d hand to a civilian who would get the liquor for him . ·169. By Senator Calomel RoweU.-Wha.t' did you do

with th.e· soldiers who we,re locked up? - They were handed ove·r to the military police. 170. Were not tihe hote1kee•pers liable to punishment for Slupplying liquor to men who we.re already under

the influence of drink would not have been able

to convict them. When the shorter hours were fixed, men drank freely and fast, and they would stand in

175 You had two police officers stationed at the

camp,?-Yes. 176. Did -these men ever report to you that they had difficulties with men returning from their leave under the influence of liquor 1-No, never.

177. By Senat01· Grant .-'-How many hotels a.re there at Seymour 7-F:i've, ho·tels and two wine shops. 178. Is there any lic-ensed grocer's shop ?-One

licensed grocer. 179. Has it been your expe•rience that when soldiers obtained leave they got away from the camp to

Seymour or to Melbourne?-Yes. Soldiers would often be in Seymour for two or thre,e days, and when asked for the.ir passes,, it would be discovered that they had leave, anq that, instead of going to Melbourne, thev

had -stayed at Seymour. While they stayed at the

hotels in Seymour, they were, of course, regarded as boarders. 180. It is your opinion that when men got leave they got away from the camp 7-Yes, a large number woula

go to Melbourne e.very week-end. 181. How do you arrive at the conclusion that if

there was a we·t canteen at the 9amp, the men would not leave the camp 1-Because the drinkers were chie.fiy middl,e-aged men: There w·ere some young fello-ws who .had mone·y to spend, and the older men would drink

with them. The men would have only a few

shillings to and they would. get young men with

money the hf!rs, and the· money would he s'l:lBnt

freely. The elderly men having to make allowances to their families, would not have a great deal to spend : and l.f they eould. have got a drink Ol' two a.t the camp during the day, they would never walk into Seymour

for the sake of a drink. '

182. You think that they would have remained at the camp if there had been -a. wet canteen tnere the majority of them certainly would. .

183. Have you had any experience of a ca1p.p where a wet ·canteen was in and where the men

remained in camp he-cause of that cai1not say tha.t I have; but I kndw that when they had a wet canteen in the Artillery there was no disturbance arising from drink obtained at it.

184. You h ave had no practical experience of the oper,ation of a wet canteen in a milit.ary camp ?-No. 185 . 1f .a wet canteen were established at the camp would there not be considerable danger that youne;

men who had not acquired the habit of drinking spirits or beer would remain in the camp instead of going to the township, and devote their attention to acquiring , the same ca.pacity for drink c,ts the miqdle-aged men

I do not think so. -

186. What is your e.xperience of men returning from leave to the Seymour camp 1-They are not at liberty; their officers take charge of them when they leave the _ train, and they are not allowed to remain in the town.

187. What are the names of the two, police officers who ·were stationed at the camp ?-Constable McCook - was one, and Constable Gunn the other. Gunn subse­ quently eiilisted for service abroad, and Constable

Harper took his place. He is now stationed at,Russell­ -street. 1._88. By Sena,tor Lt.-Colon el Jlolton.-You say that if there had been a wet! canteen in the Seymour camp

many of the men would not have walked 3 miles into Seymour in order to get a drink. Do you know that "" any number of men not on le-ave broke ca:rp_p and got

into Seymour for the sake of a Yes j but if

there had been a wet canteen in the-camp I think that . the majority of them would not have gone into ·town to get a glass of beer. -

189. You know that men broke camp to get a drink? -Yes, in the earlier days of the camp men would be camped along the river for three or four days, and

would stay there until they were hunted away by the . mili tari-police. - .

190. lJy the Chairman.-Would those men be away on leave ?-No; they would be away . without leave for two or three days, and as long as their money lasted - they would be drinking. We repeatedly cleared them

out of the town and senti them back. In the e•arlier

' days of the camp there was a grea.t, .. number of such cases. 191. Has. the number of such cases decl'ea;ed ?­ According, as the troops got away from c·amp the num-, ber has decreased. ·

-192. The number has decreased because there are fewer men in camp, and not as the result of- -better

supervi.sion and discipline ?-That is so. 193. Out of 22,500 men in camp a very small p er­ centage of the ,men would be affected by drink ?-Yes, twenty men a night out of 20,000 would be a very small percentage, and these would be chiefly men absent with-out leave. - · ·

Frederic Dougan, Bird, surgeon, Spring-street, "Melbourne, sworn and

our troops. It was in bottles -of what purported to- be Black and White whisky, and - they were passing it through the hawser holes in the ship's sides. Upon examination we found that it consisted of methylated spirits, and we learned that when a bottle was about half empty the natives used to "pumpship" into it and still sell it as whisky. When men drink terrible stuff like that, there was, indeed, ample excuse for ·some of the dread­ ful things they did, because it absolutely made them mad, because we know how urinary fever affects a man.

197. By the Ohairrnan.-Were any disturbances occa­ sioned in ports of call through drink?-I ,think the dis­ cipline was very fine on the boat I travelled with, and, besides, every man could get a bottle of beer daily with his lunch. When the Emden prisoners came on board, to the tune of 48, they signed a round-robin .asking British officer in charge if . they could ,also have their

bottle of beer. V\7 e sub scribed to a fund, and complied with their request. 198. Oan you say_ if, amongst those of the troops you treated professionally, . the greater number were total abstainers or otherwise ?-No, because my work just at that time was such- a "rough and tumble." While off Gallipoli, 1 performed_ nearly 1,000 maj·or operations, often as many. as_ 25 'in a day, so ther e was no time for anything but hard wo.rk. 1 might 'mention, however, that some interesting experimen ts have recently been carried out, both in· Engla1;1d and in Fr.ance, to show that, to some extent, alcohol di1ninishes a man's effi­ ciency. If I had some special work to do myself, 1

would .no t touch alcohol. I never take 'any 'liquor before performing an operation, as I think to do- so would be a great mistake.

199. I t has bemi stated by some peoplE> that total

abstainers who are -w·ounded or invalided make quicker recoveries than men who are not total abstainers, and, a5 they are able to ·. return to the Front sooner, there­ fore, to that exten-t, total abstaipeTs are better than men

who are not ?-I shoul-d think that is true, s}leaking generally; bu[ in regard to .a statemtlnt of that-kind, one . can only make general observations, because m en vdw are accustomed to a little liquor regularly no

194. By the Cha,irman.-Have you had an:y experi- - ha rm one way or the otlier. '\V e do know, however, that ence with members of the ·A.I.F. since the outbreak of people vvho drink heavily suffer more du:(lng and after the war?-Yes, in Egypt, Ga.lll.poli, and elsewhere. I -an op6ration or aecident than people. who do not take went away with the First Australi:an Expeditio'n on - drink. But I would like to sa_y smnething ·with regard board the OnJieto. My s•ervices were accepted by the to the rum rtation. General- Birdwood," with whom 1 Gqvernment, but they did not give me any position until was very friendly, was much criticised by the older men _I got to Egypt. The Inrperial Government then gave for having knocked off the rum ration d}lring the hot

me_ a lieutenant-colonelcy in· the R.A:1LC., and made "'reather in Gallipoli. IIe vvas quite right in doing su me consulting surgeon to the in Egypt, so I saw vrhile hot weather lasted. I have been told, on the other

a great . deal of the AusJralian Forces, both there 1and hand, tli·at this tot of rum supplied to men in the

Anzac. trenches in F-rance is very 'beneficial, and that, to quote

195. Oan you say, from your experience with the . their own words, "It was .the little bright spot in their troops, if drink has m ...._aterially affected their efficiency? whole damn day." They nea:rly . all looked forward to ·-It certainly did affect our troops in Egypt at :first, · this ration, which was supplied t o them after a heavy because for a while there was a great deal of drunken- dafs work: ·.and it dig _ not prove at all ha1:mful. If, ness, but late.r improved consider_ably. l\Iy ho,vever, it is supplied a long . day's \vork, bene­

old gardener) who ,vas a private in t,he :First Division, ficial results are not likely to follow. The rum _ ration, and a man . for whose judgment I have consider able in cert;aiu circumstances, does seem to put new life into respect, told me that money was at the bottom of all the the n1en, especi,ally in the cold weather. N e.arly eve_ry trouble. His battalion ordinarily was ·One of the :finest authorit y, I think, admits this, except, perhaps, the in the Army, 'but as soon as the men got their money · late Sir Victo-r Horsley, who, as a teetotaller; held ·-some of them as much as £25 of pay-they rather intemperate views, and I _ t1.m sorry t:o say be­

went to pieces on account of the drink. · cause of the risks he took in Mesopota1ma, he d1ed of

196. H11 Colonel Rowell.-Was that aJ; · about the -heat apoplexy. .

time that·-they set fire to the Bazaar in Cairo?-Y es, I 200. Do. yo_ u not think that if, - of being

think it mas.- I might -add that the liquor su_pplied to supplied rum when they c-ame off duty, our men the men was enough to k111 anybody. When we arrived could have obtained hot coffee during the cold weather, at Alexandria, we caught natives selling vile stuff to it would have better ?-:-I am sure it would.

29

' 201 .. 10an you say · to what extent venereal diseases · shown H1at a man with an absolutely clear hr,ain may have interfered '}'ith the efficiency of out; troops ?.--:I send an impulse down to move hi's little finger almost COUld nOt help Seein·g it, beCiaUSe there WaS SO lllUCh Of with rthe -Will 1 t0 illOVe, WhereaS a man

it. with even a little :al,cohol exhibit's slight hesitation. This

202. It has been stated by one witness; somewhat to shows that alcoholic drinks have an injurious effect on our surprj.se, that the overwhehiling percentage of these the individual. cases -were not due- to . drink at all, but that the big 211. Then tllat would affeCJt a man in firing

majority occurred aniong total abstainers or men who _ line?-Yes; I should rS'ay it would. "" -

· were. extremely moderate in their drinking habits. Can 212. I think that, in one of · his book:s, Sir Victor you s·ay anything with r_egard to that_?-We Ho:rsley states that during some trial shooting men who think tliat drink is one of the contributil).g causes, but it had taken a limited amount of alcohol were able to is very difficult to be _ get as good results as when they were absolutely free

203. Do you think that . a large i1umber of our men of the s:pirits. Has that any bearing on this 'question?­ have been invalided through drink ?--I shoUld not say I think such results wou1d be reported. I1 t is well a large number, because, as a rt e, Australians are very known 'that sportsrmen do -not shoot as well after as temperate. __ before lunCh, thought they may he perfectly temperate

204. One or two witnesses have told us tha:t the in their habits. , ·

_young among _ tne Australian troops. are rather mora 213. By Senator I presume, of coul'lse, that, as. ·j

temperate than the others . . Is that your a medical men, you· have given some t-o

I should say that is so, and that the Australians are as the effect of alcohol on the human system. We have - _ ·J

temperate as any body of men in wQrld. been 'told by some eminent physicians and sur-

205. Is that ·as far you can go ?-I refer to_ the geons that alcohol interferes with accurate shooting,

,Y-oung particularly. 1tany of the older men come and that amongs:t other things it lessens· resistance to from overseas, where drinking habits among the people disease and exposure, as well aa increases danger fTom are more pronounced than in Australia. Butryou must shell shock and wounds. Can you say if this has been . remember tha:t a man in Scotland could drink whiskv your experience ?--I a·m certain thwt even a limited

which he could not take in Australia because of the-- dif- amount of ,alcohol will put a man off hils 'Shooting, hut ferent climatic· conditions. ' I am not prepared to say whether aH the other ex·

- 206. Since your return have you had any professional periences would be recorded. . Undoubtedly alcohol rloes experience among returned am now occupy- affect the impul,ses, as I have already stated. If I had

ing the position of major in reserve, and I believe I a difficult task to pe:dorm and WJanted a do-zen men to am consulting surgeon, but I have not very much work I would very mucl/rather have all of them free to do, though I have seen a fair number of our men. fro·m than .

207. Do you think that drink_ is interfering very - 214. Can you ·say if drink is one of the causes lead­ much with our 1 en after_ their return ?-Not with a ing Up to the contraction of venereal diseases ·?-It is large percentage!. _ · very difficult to ,ans"\ver that question. Drink un-

208. Wb.at you suggest should be d·one to doubted)y .a man's inhibition, and it goes with­

minimise the evil ?-I think the c:our:se followed in orrt saying that in that condition · he is more likely to England might he adopted here. In E"nrgland it is a·n ' go "on the loose"; to ·use a colloquialism. . offence to "treat" a. soldier t;hough he !P.ay he offered _ 215-. I suppose you have heard that in some eastern a. packet of cig1arettes; and that policy, I understand, .., countries-and I suppose in Cairo also---,it is customary

has dimii1ished the drink evil great d(jal in the Old to certain kind of drink for the purpose of

Country. The dosing of public houses also had a good e:xmtnl!g the sexual pa,ssions ?-Yes; this is done in vari­ effe'C_ t. I was at Salisbury Plains for a Itime and saw a ous Sce;nts are used for .the purpose

good - deal of our men. The hospitals bec:ame dis-... · of kmdlmg desue, and cerilam brands of cigarettes are organized there, and the Imperial authorities me put up for the same purpose. if I would go down and try to st.raighten np. 216. Did you find that; this was eing done in

I was disappointed, because, at that time, I thought I ?..-I really cou1d not say, because I was very busy

would ·be rsent' to the Italian Front, but they switched all the time. me -off to Salisbury Plains, 'and I was theTe when the 217. Oa;n you if drink, consisting partially, of

GO'vernment decided to -the houses. I human urme, whiCh, as you have stated, was supplied

thought it was the right thing to do. , , to our would h!ave the effect of excitino- the.il·

. 209: But · are the hotels closed earlier 'in England - passions ?-No; it just made them mad, and after­ than they are in Australia ?-I could not say, but I wards they became comatose. Altogether it was a ter-know Government _ have power to make certain ex- ribly .,sad state ,of affairs. ·

ceptions. It is very important, in my judgment, that 2 8. I think you remarked that a'1cohol supplied at - when hotels are closed, am:ple opportunity 1should -be- the end of .a day would do no'hody any harm, and I do provided for the men to get hot sO'up, hot co:ff.ee, or not know that anJhody would dirspute that statement; other such non-intoxicruting stimulents. but -can say what would be a safe amount fo-r any

210. Then wo.u:ld you :adrvocate anti-.shouting in A us- man to take ?-No; 1 beerause people':S constitutions vary lralia ?-Yes. A-lcohol, when 'taken with meals, not so much. . Alcohol is .a poison. That fa.ct must be Te­ nearly so· deleterious a.·s when drunk alone. It is in_:t-- mem'be_red. There are three poi,sons against which portant, as I have alrerudy stated, that men should ,be humamty should be guarded, namely, syphilis (wliich is

able :to get -obher non-alcoholirc comfo!"ts, and I think it the worst)., :;tlcohol, and If all these poisons would be good policy to esta'blish kiosks, such as the could. b.e ehmmated men would hve longer, and our social Y.M.C.A.· buffets, rat all the 'great centres where 'Soldiers conditions would be better. But men, when denied -congregate. The Y.'M .. C.A. have done a s-plendid WCYrk access to one class of drug, will prohahly seek 1another. in England and everywhere else. vVherever I have been S.om.e fly to cocaine, . which is in:finitely than

I have never hea:rd a word of criticisnt against the -alcohol. A persorl's constitutional resistance mus't be Y.M.-C.A., and, of cour;se, the R ed Cros's depots. I taken into account. It has been said that Bismarck might add that e:x,peTimerlltS made recen

30

do W·ork having consumed enoTmous quan- exarp.ined) it would he found that djBease had made

of wirte; and the Grea,t, we kno·w, was very little inroad,s upon their systems. If, on the

1}.. very heavy drinke1 r. other hand, you took 100 men living in the lower strata

219. But is it not a fact that there is not much of society-men who also lived and were accus­

.in good wi.ne ?- excepting iperhaps sherry tomed to drinking, but were supplied with a very mud1

and port wine. infel'lior brand of artiele.._._...,and if, after d eath, their

220. Referring !again to ·the ·conditi:ons in Egy•pt can livers were examined, they wo uld be found to be hob­ you say if they impro·ved before the camp was broken nailed with disease due entirely to the quality of the up ?-Yes; very much · indeed. The :fimst expedition liquor they had been drinking duTing lifetime. My · which left Austr.a'lia a magnr:fi.cent body of point is that good liquor, taken in moderation, does

men. They were thoroughly trained in every way, and much less harm than liquo.r of an infeTior quality sup­ were in perfect condition when they landed after the plied to the poorer cla!Ss of the cmnmunity. long sea voyage, but unfortunately ' they were landed, 231. By Lt.-Oolone l Bolton.-Do you remember the with plenty of money, in the most immo;ral place on Sicilia transport which was stationed in a little bay - God's earth. off Gallipoli near to your hospital ship ?-Yes.

221. Is it a fac-t that there were special allurements 232. Do you remem r that you kindly placed a small to draw our men into those vile -places ?-Yes; un- steam launch at our disposal to enable the men to be fortunately ·the .people there know ho,w to appeal to the taken ashore daily?-Yes, but that was due to the w:o-rse side of human nature. But shortly afterwards, f(ction of the captain. I had nothing to do with that.

when Genel'lal Bridges C·Onsul:ted me a·bout the po,sition, 233. Do you remember when the men left I suggested that perhaps the best course to adopt would Egypt, they were very much· worn out with the severe he

that they would Il:Ot be enticed abr·Oad. . more food, and to cut down their route marches, be-

222. From your experience can you ·say if a wet cause I thought then that they were overdoing it. canteen is preferable to a dry canteen ?-That would be a difficult question to : :;mswe.r. If wet Ganteens are 234. Do you remember how, after seven or eight provided 1 think_regulations should be f!'amed to pre- days' comparative rest and daily bathing on the beach,

vent any man going more than twice a day to the can- and with the total absence of liquor on board, the men teen; but then aga,in' the individual must be c'onsidered. were brought again to a condition of physical fitness If a man is temperate in o_ ther he will be Yes.

temperate in his dl'linking, and perhaps if we had n G 235. Then do you consider it would be , an advantage distractions in the world it would not be worth living if training camps wei·e located at some gistance from in, because, afte'r 1 all, it the man who· comes t,hroug11 cities or towns ?-I think it would be better if they were temptation that irs the str.ong ml!n, and if make men some distnnce from a town -o.r city. good by Act of Parliament perhaps we shall not breed 23G. Do you consider that, if located ne,ar cities or

strong people. tovV11S, tbere would be facilities for indulgence in drink

2.23. D o" you think that more res.tr,ictions should be . leading to crime and disease, as well as slackening of placed upon soldiers in regard to the sale of intox;i-cating drink ?---I would not allow them to be "treated" discipline?--- Yes. by friends. 237. Having regard now to the tremendous problem

224. Then you would be an advocate of an •anti- of .repatriation, as a medical officer can you _say if the shouting law?-Yes; I am •sure that is the right course. majority of th.e -men returning are in an abnormal flta te, 225. By Colonel Rowell.-What i's your -impression mentally and physically think the maj,orrty are not of ·our soldiers in Egypt and En,gland? :Q:id you find in their ordinary frame of mind. It is hardly expected

that many of them drank to eXJcess ?-I think this vv;as that they could be, for I know how .restless I was myself noti.ceable in Egy;pt at fi-rst, but I doubt if it is so in for three or' four months· after my return, and ]low I was England,. behaviour ,of the men now is excellent. nearly throwing mrerything up and going · back. 226. Were you in Egypt when the men destroyed the 238. Then do you think the problem of r epatriation

Bazaar ?-Yes. will be rendered more difficult by the continued use uf

_ 227. Do y·ou think t·hat that was due to the fad that ir.. our community?--! should say that without

the men were the worse for liquor ?-I t_ hink there wa·s alcohol the difficulties you mentioned would be decreased a hit of the "Old Adan1" about the t-reu:ble welL undoubtedly·. 228. Was not a robhery at the bottom. of it is 239. In view of the immensity of the problem and its

difficult to say. I think that AuS

tomed to moTe freedom perhaps than other men, were total prohibition in this country for the period of the apt at that time to kick a little more agains•t the re- · . war would be too great a to suggest ?-I should

strictions imposed upon them. . . · . • ·like to think over that question before answering.

229. Were the hoteJs in Egypt closed at 6 o'clock _Total prohibition has been a two-edged sword in many when you were there ?-I not say. F-or the :fi_ rst places, notably America, where it has produced ,a crop three or four week·s the state of affairs was very bad of drug maniacs--:men who, because they could not indeed, but after that there Wlas a g;reat improvement. obtain alcohol:i.c liquors, took to drugs, including

I do not think that any man in the future could .be cocaine, which is infinitely worse than alcohol.

proude-r of anything than !he fact that he was an Humanity, almost since the days of Noah, has been

Australian soldier. accustomed to alcohol in some form or other, and, there-

230. What is the amouilt of rum .ration supplied to fore, some constitutional resistance has been built up the men ?--Only a .small tot, about 1 oz. aHogethe'r, but against this form of poison; but the human system it is good navy rum. Let me give an illustr,a.tion of offers no resistance to cocaine, and people who contract what I mean by the effect of alcohol on the human that habit frequently go -by the board. It seeiDB that

• system. If you were to take 100 men, living in a good people want some stimulant, and if they cannot get station of life in who lived f1reely, as alcohol they will want tea_ or coffee, or something else.

many people d·o, and who were accustomed, t9 taking a I am afraid that, whatever is done by way of legislation, certain anwunt of if after death their livel'ls it will be impossible to eliminate the wasters in -society.

1 4 . -· a ··-7, .. ' ..... _

'31.

· 240. ·Do not think it possible that a mtional tem­ 'Perate- soldit;Jr now be affected more by one glass than prior to the war?-Yes, that is s,a. 241. Then, if the experience of .one man is multi­

plied by wo-uld not the difficulty of handling

thE:J r-epatriation prob1ew be rrniCh greater, having re­

ga_ rd to the liquor question ?-Of course it would. 242. _Then do you not thinic the people should be • prepared to help .,the ,Government by making such sac­ rifices as might be gntailed by agreeing to prohibition'?

--Well, you might say to a returned soldie-r-' Yo11 can have a bit of land if,- you take the for a

,year or two." That might be one way out of the diffi- culty. - ·

243. By Senator G-rant.--;-I thin,k you i:nehtioned syphilis, .a:g.d tobacco . as three poisons to be

guarded against. Rave you any practical of t_he injui•ious effects :following upon the cigarette habit?-Yes; ·cigarettes a .re very harmful because- they are used so freely.

if good liquor could supplied to all the ])eople instead -of inferior liquor at present served tu the poorer .

classes in our community. .

253. Then you believe that go;od ,liquor taken in moderation is beneficial?-What I said was that

would he better' if ,alcohol were eliminated

altogether; but if t:his 'c.annot be done it would be better to hav:e good liquor .rather than the inferior article. I 's it a fact that the goQd. hotel's in Egypt were

shut against our soldiers ?-After a time they were,­ but -that was after there had been some row in the Con­ tinental or Shepheards. These places were then placed-" ·out of bounds" for our men. ·

25.5._ Then they had to procure liquo;r where best they coUld ?-Yes; but I know the liquqr at Shepheards wa:s not very good. 256. I under,stand that you do not object to ' people

smpking urdinary tobacco ?-It does not agree with some people. I do not smoke at all now. However, I can only speak genera'lly. I know smoking is a oom­ f.ort' to many people, s·o I should be sorry to see tohacco

done away with altogether: It all oomes down to a

244. Do you thinh: the cigarette habit interferes with the- efficiency of ·our troops .at the Front?-I think, to some extent, it does, and I believe that a good number of Dur men are practically forced to become cigarette smokers through people always wanting to give them

' question of moderation.

cigarettes. '

245. Are you that vast sunis of mOTley are in­

vested Jn the cigarette ·anl tobacco industry, and that if you talk prohibition you are up against .a big mono­ poly_?-Yes; ·1 do not smoke for the reason that, about 25 yea:J;s ago, I thl'mght it made my · hand shaky, so I

dropped the and r have never smok:.!=ld since.

246. You are of opinion, I presume, that the world would be better if people :absolutely--- abstained from alcoholic drink ?-M·ost decidedly. .· 247. But P,id you not-say that in some cases the rum

ration w-as h€:meficial ?-Yes, I was thinking of its mental effect upon the men, because il}. son1e ·circum­ stances / it produces a sense of much gratification, _ and after a big effort I should imagine it makes our soldiers very happy, and altogether to take a rosier v5ew of

I can readily conceive that after so;rne big effort .,

our n;ten are the better" for a little alcoholic stimulant, but I should s.ay . it should not be "taken before any big

. Is it usual to supply the rum ration befo.re, or

during, or after a pig effort?-I think it is usually given afterwards, but I could iiot swear to t]i.is. -_ 249. Is 'it . not the general impression that the rm;n ration is very often ser:ved out ptior to a big engage­ II!-ent ?-Sometimes_ it might be, to give men a little Dutch courage. - ·

250. Are you of -opinion that people who have well-1 stocked -cellars indulge to excess?-I do not- think so.

251. Then would you be in favour of removing the Excise and import duties on spirits, so as to enabfe a plentiful supply being available, not on-ly to the wealthy people, but also to-other sections of the community, and the as well; so that every one having a well­

stocke-d cellaret ·would become aocustomed to the drmk liabit, and so would not i_ndulge to excess ?-I am afraid _I am not expert' enough to speak on that

aspect of the question, but -I will say that it would be a very good thing if all liquors supplied for consump­ tion were-of high quality. ,- '252. But would you, be iu favour of legislation which

would have the' effect of placing' alcoholic drink within the reach of all the people, as in Italy, for instance, where I understand the people . are accustomed to ·wine with, at least, one meal every / day. Would you be in

favour of legislation to reduce the price of drink, so as to bring it within the reach of all?--=-I would be glad

257. I take it t-hat you are oppo,sed to the wet can­ teen have ha.d very little experience of camp can­ teens. It a very difficult to deal wit'h.

.258. By Senator Buz-aoott.-Did you say you were in the camp Sa+isbury Plain?-Yes. 259. Did you notice any ill effects from drink among the men · therrd-I wa·s very busy indeed at that time

rushing a:bout from hospital to ho1s:pital, so I was not at to make ohserv,a.tions.

260. Did you notice more drinking aiffi,ong soldiers in England than in Australia ?-No ; I do not ' remember seeing a drunken Australi'an soldier in Eng-land at all. - .. r -

In- your rema:rks the ill effects of liquor

on the human system_did you take into a·c.count the fact that mamy :n:um between- 40 and 45 year:s of age have· beep. accustomed to their gJa.s,s ·Of beer ev·ery day, and do you not think that if -it were cut off straight away it would have SQme prejudical effect upon their nervous system ?-I really do not think it would do them any har:m.

262. T think you said you never took dr:l.nk before an operation. Are we to infer from that that you do take· d:rink sometimes after an 01 peration I am glad to say my nerves do no,t want steadying. If ever I do

take a it is be,cause I like it. I do not like whi,sky,

and the.rdore I nev:er drink it. 263. Do you admi.t that strong tea, taken to exce&>s, would have a prejudi•cial effect upon the nervous sys­ tem?-Yes;_ in this connexion r would like .to relate a little anecdote in my career: At one time an old Eng­ lish lady came to me suffering from eczema on her

chest, and for professional reasons, and knowing t]J.at if she were 'in the habit of taking drink, and' co11tinued to do so, she would no.t 1 be ·cured, I asked her, "Do you take :any alcohol?" She replied, "Mr. Hir·d, I am a·s nearly teetot;al as ,it is respectable to be." · /

Witness withdrew.

Samuel John Hallett, Plain-dothes Senior Constable, stationed at Mellbourne, sworn and examined. 264. By th'e Chair-man.-Are you stationed in Rus­ ?-Yes; I have been there for nearly twenty­

e•ight years, and for twenty-seven years I have -been en­ gaged on licensing d1;1.ty, supervising the liquo'r traffic in Melbourne. I am not obliged to do ordinary beat· duty. My duties the supervision of hotels, wine

shops, and sly grog shops in the city .of Melbourne a,nd

' .....

32

.... I have to att(md to all complaints in con­

nexion with the licensing trade, and to tTy .and put do-vvn drinking on Sundays, and during prohibited hours in hotels, wine shops, and sly grog shops. 265. Is it part of your duty to eXiamine liquor for quality ?-No; . that comes under the Customs Depart­ ment. Jnspector Roche examines liquor f.o.r quality.

266. Has your wo·rk increased since the war started? and particularly since 9.30 o'clock dosing, and,

'later, the 6 o'clock clo,sing law came into .force. _ 267. I suppose you are obliged to visit hotels fre-quently?-Yes. ·

_ 268. I suppose certain hotels are frequented by sol­ diers more than others?-Yes; during the day and up till 6 o'clock in the evening more soldiers will be found in the large hotels in Bourke and Swanston-streets, but after that hour t]ley will be found roaming about the back streets and _ places where illicit trading is likely to be carried on.

269. Have you noticed if the soldiers frequented hotels upon their return when invalided from the Front ?-Yes. A certain number of men 1vill be .-found about the hotels for the first week after their ;return; but after that they seem to get away as if they had. gone to their homes, some, no doubt, to the country.

270. Can you _say if any considerable percentage of the men found about hotels are addicted to drink? ­ No; I should say those men would be in the minority. I have had a good deal of experience with the soldiers and I find that a great majority Qf them are total ab­ stainers or very moderate drinkers. The men found reeling about the streets on a Sunday and late at night constitute a very small percentage of our troops.

When men ,are seen rolling about the streets some people say, " Here is another instance of the evil effects of hotels;" but, as -a matter of fact, in the maj-or i_ty of carses .those men have not been inside hotels at alL They have got into sly grog shops -in Little Bourke­ street or Little Lonsdale-street, or some of the back lanes. It is quite a common thing to find soldiers of this

description up the right-of-ways and drinking beer out of bottles. They can liquor from Chinese

quarters and many other 4-t a lot of tht)se

places they will not allow a sol{lier in uniform to enter, buf are always "touts " about ready to say,

"Give me 2s. and I will get you a beer." These men then go into a shanty and pay, perhaps, 15d. for a bottle of beer and thus make 6d. or 8d . .for thems(':llves. That is how a lot of our soldiers get drunk on a Sunda;r.

Then, again, a number of men O!!:_ week-end leave take rooms at an hotel. They _ generally come .in on a

Saturday afternoon, get a bed, and stay there for the night, and on Sunday, as lodgers, they are entitled to obtain drink on the premises. We have seen them fre­ quently at about 10 o'clock at night catching the last trains to Broadmeadows, or where,ver -,their camp may be. Some of these men are pretty £1!_11, but, as I have said, they are entitled to get liquor fro;m the hotel, and ' we ·could not interfere. ·

271. Can you ·say that it is only a small percentage ' of our soldiers who will be found about the hotels drink­ ing?-I think so. Those men-, I think, wer_ e in the ha,bit of drinking before they j_gined the Force.

272. From your experience of our returned soldiers can -you say if they are in a normal frame of mind? .::::- · No; I should say that there is a feeling of restlessness among nearly all the returned men.

273. Do you think then thaf after a time we will get back to a normal state in this respect ?-Yes; I think that, as regards sobriety and the drinking habits of the people, we will eventually get back to the'state of affairs ·which existed prior to the war. _ _

4-. Have you had brought under your notice com­

plaints by returned soldiers abo_ut their treatment in

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regard to employment ?-1 have . occasionally noticed soldiers " cadging" in the streets -both at night and during the afternoons. _ 275. In /such cases, do you think that the circum-- stances in which the men find themselves ar e due to

drinking ?-I think that usually such men a.re ex­ cessive drinkers, and that no matter what wages they ·got they would be penniless a co.uple of days after pay day.

276. By Lt.-Colone l Bolton.-Apart from returned soldiers, have--you found that a number of trainees make the habit of frequenting the city at night ?-Yes; I nave found these men all over the -city, both in the slums and in the main streets.

277: From your observations then, wo uld yo u con­ sider it to be in the interests of military efficiency if these camps were removed from l\1elbourne ?-Of course it would keep rthem out of Melbourne, but the question is, would it keep them out of the adjoining towns ? - ·

278. But dQ. you think it would be better if the

cainps were r emoved some distance from any town ?---I s4_ould say it would be far better. 279. I-Iave you formed opi-nion as to the extent which 6 o' clo.ck closing of hotels has affected the liquor trade?-The watchhouse r eturns will show a big falling off in the -number . of p ersons arrested for drunkenness. The 9.30 o'clock closing will indicate a falling off in arrests as compared with the 11.30 o'clock closing; and likewise 'the 6 o'clock closing will show .a

big falling off _ as compared with the 9.30 closing. I believe, however, that 6 o'clock closing has l ed to a lot of during prohibited hours, as well _ as an in­

crease in the sly grog-selling. On this point I have some information which I extr acted from the office ledger dealing -with the ·years 1914-15-= ] 6-]7. ln 191 L J:_, the total amount of fines inflicrt;ed for breaches of the Licensing Act was £1,498. Out of that arno1111t i§1,:350

W?-S for sly grog-selling. We seized the liquor in those

.shops_and I s_ Gld it by auction for a total ·of £11 18s. , In 1915, the total iines amounted to £1,331, of which- sly grog-selling was rer,ponsible -for £960, the sale of foi·feited liquor realized £52 3s. 2d. In 1916, the total -iines ,amounted to £726 lOs. , - including £33 5 for sly

grog-

280. There is a general impression -that, ow.ing to the presen-t pri_ ces·, a good deal o.f adulterated liquor is being sold. Have you any knowledge on th-is point?-­ No. Inspector Roche, of the Customs Department, co uld give you that information.

281. I suppose that you...,_ h ave noticed that among returne

because the men are generally _suffering from operations and other complaints. Their systems have been

weakened with the _result that they cannot stand ·as much drink as when in perfect health. I shoul_d say that, in many Cases, men who h aYe been accustomed to take half-a-dozen glasses of whisky wo uld now be affected by one _ or two.

. 282. By Senator Grant.-What is the area over which you have supervision ?-The part oYer which I have jurisdiction starts on the south of the River Yarra, up Gisborne-street to Victoria-parade, round the lire­ station to Nicholson-str eet, along that street to the

boundary of Bnmswick, taking in the Carlton side, down the Sydney-road, taking in Parkville h11r, missing North Melbou:r:ne, and down to the Saltwater -River, taking ·in all West Melbourne and the dock. ·

. /

3S · ·\

28 3. flow many- hotels are there in that area ?:-I could not tell you_ accurately, but before the Licensing R.eductiqn Board commence_ d-operations there were 365, and roug-hly speaking, the Board has closed 150.

Are the clubs- in the area closed at 6

They are closed for the sale of intoxicating liquor, but

of course, are entitled to frequent the club\

house.

284. How many wine shops are there '{-About 40. 285. How many clubs ?-Roughly speaking, aoout 35. 286 . Have you any idea of the number of sly g_ rog shops ?::_I could not give -the exact figures,_ but I havt? with me a list of 31 places which I ha:.vr. instructed our men_ to look into. · This does not represent all sly grog shpps, -

287 . -Do these sly grDg shops liquor equal in

quality to that obtainable from hotels ?-As r e­

gards bottled beer, yes, speaking gm1erally. This is not tampered with ve!-y often. I have known our men to buy stuff containing camp ale; cold tea, and water, though there was nothing deleterious in the mixture.-

. 288 . What aBout the quality of spirits -obtained at thes& sly grog shops?-I h ave heard some of our men_ say it is terrible stufii, and that they would not like to have to drink a second-glass of the stuff they got £rom a --

place in Exhibition-street recently.- , 289 . Could you tell how rnany, soldiers have been arrested for in sly grog shops ?-No. The

police do not care to arrest them, and if -any charges are laid against them they are with drawn. 290 .- Can you say how many civilial!:S have been ar­ rested ?-The_ watchhouse book ' will supply this infor­ mation. I might say that, besides these sly-gxog shops,

we have to w:atch -the methylated spirit merchants, especially for Sunday-trading. /

291. By Senator Buzacott.-Have people _the right to sell methylated spirits on Sunday?-If a man went into a chemis·t's shop- and. said he wanted 6d. worth of methylated spirits the -chemist -woulg be within his

in supplying it, because the customer might re­

quire it- for a liniment. IIi order to prosecute a

chemist I got two of to go t o his shop and ·

r,xplain to him that they wanted the. methylated

- to drink; and ask him if it would poison them, and also 1vhat quantity they could take. The chemist "fell in." He_ told -them it was a good substitute for 1 :uni if they took 2.; cei·tain quantity with so much water, -and that

in this proportion it would not affect them. Our men th.en bought 6d. worth,__ and upon analysis this methy-­ lated -spirits· was -found to e_o_p.taix192 per cent. of proof spirit. The chemist was convicted, and though he ap··

pealed against it, the judge upheld the conv1ction. had that we wanted it for co nsumption.

Can- ypu say the quantity of drink sold

in lvielbourne h a s decreased since hotels closed at ·9.30 p.m., and then later at 6 o'clock ?-I have' no way of -gettin-g that information, but the brewers' returns. tell tis that there is as much liquor· consumed now as ever

there was, and th at there is a greater percentage of bo ttled stuff. 29.3 . -Did I understand you to say that the police def}-1 leniently with returned soldiers charged with drunken­

ness ?-Yes. As a rule, the pol-ice are satisfied to get the men off the streets and out o_f the wai. 294. F rom your answer, then, 'the Committee would be justified in coming to the coll,'lusion that the number

of arrests for drunkenness does-not in any 'way indicate the numbe1· of soldiers who may indulge in drinking to excess ?-No. 2.95 . Can you say if fj.mong those found drinking on

Sunday there is a greater percentage of soldiers than ci....ilians ?-If the previous Friday has been pay-day soldiers are apt to go "on the loo se/' and try to get

into the sly-grog shops, so that there is always a l arger proportion of soldiers on that Sunday than on the fol­ lowing Spnday. F.l459.-3

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Cannot members themselves get

drink on Sundays ?-No. TJle club secretary could pros-ecuted- for Sunday trading, or · trading during pro- 1 hibited hours; but under the Licensing Act t}lere is pro­ vision tl1at clubs in existence prior to 1906 'could claim

certain exemptions, one of which is that the police have no power to visit, as in the case of hotels and wine shops, at any hour of the day or night without a special order ' from a magistrate. In the case of hote!s o.r wine shops · any policeman appointed, or any member of the force not b elow the rank of senior constable, has power to smash a door open if he believes the, licensee, his servant,

Q ·r agent is barring the entrance against him. This does apply to clubs which have taken advantage of the

exemption clauses. Nearly all the clubs enjoy this privilege, but ' clubs established since 1906 cannot claim it. -

298. your experien_ ce, can you say if the shout­ jug habit has had any effect upon the drinking habits of our soldiers ?-There is no doubt about it. ' One has only to stand at a street corner to the truth of -

tl'i is. One will see friends approach a soldier, chat for a moment or two, and then say, "Come in and have a drink." The soldier complies, and but for that

m_ an he would not have gone into the hotel at all. 299-. Then. you think that an anti-s_ h q_uting law would reduce the drinking habits of our people ?-I do not know how it could be done: There is not much to be gain.e d by passing a law unless there is power to enforce __ it. - ' . -

300. Has it not been carried out in the Old Country? - -I do not know how it is being carried ou t there. In

m-y opinion, it is only a Wiaste of time tinkering with the law regarding hotels and wine shops. Frequently · it takes the poJice weeks, and, perhaps, months, to catch a man for a breach of the Licensi-ng Act, ,and then he is fined, perhaps, £2. We shall never stop illicit trad-.., ing by a fine of rthat amount. If, however, tbe fines

were· made £2 5 for-the first offence, £100 for the second, and cancellation of licence for the third, a publican -would say, " This is no good to me. You are not going to get a drink ir1 my place on a Sunday."

301. Then is that your suggestion for coping with this evil ?--My suggestion ·is to increase the penalties. At present a publican who ,otherwise would obey the law is practically compelled to break it by the action. of an­

other publican round the corner who will risk Sunday trading, and, perhaps; take customers away from the man who ob-eys law.

302 . . By Senatb1· Guy.:__Oan you say if amongst the returned soldiers who have been found the worse for drink the older or younger men ,could

not say. I have seen some young fellows only about eighteen years of · age reeling about the streets, and I have alsa- seen men . up t o forty and forty-five years of age · in the same condition. - ,

303. I thii1k you spoke of the futility of passing legis­ lation unless there was power to enforce it. Have you power to enfor ce 6 o'clock closing?-'--We have power to - enforce it on hotel licensee and wine shopS', but there

are many anomalies. For instanee, there is the tem­ ,per !!-_ nce bar on licensed premises. When the police have their backs turned long beers arA served at these temperance bars. At the Austral Hotel,- in Bourke­

street, they were doing this. We knew it because we found soldiers and civilians in all stages of drunken- ' ness, and we kuew it. was not being done on temperance drink. I put men in there, but they had to go ·a

1

many times before could get . However,

they did get served, and I visited the myself, ap­

proaching it through a tobacco shop. I saw an old " man in the bar, and he had something like eighty ordi-nary beer bottles without the- Labels on. were

two P-oles cut in the partition from 'the publ:c bar - through to the non-intoxicating liquor bar. Th1s man used to - put twelve in ·one hole, and when .the

attendant in the temperance bar wanted a bottle he JUSt put his hand through this hole and up the "N eer

Then when the bottle w;as _empty he dropped

it through the other hole into the bar. I was '_Vatching them for nea:rly five minute>S before they notwed me. That is how this business is conducted generally. At - that time it was being done 'all over Bourke-street. At # another place, near the qoffee the men were_ re­

quired to go down a stairway mto a room where three women and a man were kept busily serving. There they stacked the bottles in three . boxes, washeq. off all labels and served it out as ·" N eer Beer." I suppose the labels alone which were piled up a!t the ·ba·ck of a box would have fllled a tin bucket. This shows the of jllicit trading that had been carried ?n t?en.

304. Judging from that answer, one would be lnch.ned to thi'llk that the consumption of liquor haH poss1My increa·sed .si111ce early closing ·has come into force. Is - that so ?__,Tihere is no doubt that the sale of bottl-ed beer

haJS increrused because men ·can. get it in the shanties and in the bars. La.tely, however, a lot o!

d . . " peo.ple who have been prosecute . are JUSt now Hpar-ririg" a bit carefully. . .

305. Has sly grog-selling smce _early

ing?-Y.es, because there -are so many ?'hannels foi' th1s clwss of trading. For instance, there 1s the or the .alien to be found aH over the p1a.ce, and 1n the back lanes. There -is .also the man who does .not occupy any house all. He .. gets a dozen of beer ·

the b;ottles ·in a ·certain :place. _ Then he puts o!le m h1s - trousers pocket,· and moves about the .street unt1l he sees a likely customer coming along, and will then 'say­ - " Are you looking foT a bottle of beer?" - If the man

answel'is ..._,Yes," he will say, " I can you

-hoittle for 2s." If he cannot sell · at 2·s., he wll·l ·ask 1·s. 6d., and when he·gets rid of thra·t bottle, he_goe.s back " to liis plamt for an?ther. And s? the traffic goes ?n. . Quite _a number of men are the d?.mg

busines•s. in :that way; Others, agam, carry m a

flask, which .they hide in one -pocket, and- haye a· gl3:ss in the other. If they see a likely customer, they Will _ say, "Give rile 6d., and I will give you. a. They

· then pr&duce the glass and pour the 1 sp.rnts mto 1t from out of the other pocket. _

306. In the case of soldiers taking to d:rink, do you think it is hecaurse of a -good feeling on the pa,rt of the citizens who desire to ,., treat " them think that is

_the cause of a -guod deal of drink·ing. Only a sma11 percentage of the men really "hog the drink. -T have been 1ITI•ee•ting men from -the camps for a long time. - When my own lad was in camp I used to

see young fellows going back at abnut

' 9 o'clock at night, arid I ·saw no signs or drink­

-at all about them. In my opinion, the grea.t majority of young men who enlis.ted are total a.bstaine.rs or mOderate drinkers. The night before my boy went _ q,way, h e a·nd others. had made arrangements to leaYe

tovvn by one o,f the charabancs at 1 -o'clock . I Haw them off, .and d1d_ not notice any signs, of drink. They

of my duty to to drink. -Still; am a

because I never go an hotel for drmk. Jf, howe·ver, we make /i t" a penalty to sup.ply a in uniform

with drink we would put the moderate drmker on tb e S'ame level' as a man who reels in the gutter, and hP

would regard this as a_ grievance, and perhaps say,. " 'Dhis is wh.at I -get for enlisting,"· or " 'l'his is I have g0t for coming back a He co11ld not

help feeling his position very keenly If he we re treated in a. manner different from the eiviliart. 307. Can you say if trhe drinming ·.amongst the soldiers has any relation to the contractwn of venereal dirsea·ses ?-'I know very -little or nothing a:bout that aspect of the qu'estion. VVfuen -certain are

br.ough.t before _the _ Cou r t, they r emanded to . the gaol for treatment. If any compla.I'llts. ·are made against t hem, they are investiga.ted by ,the plan4.-clothes men. 308! By MT. BuzacQtt.:._JI.n your to tem­

perance bars, di,d you mean bars conducted by the hotels, -or in eool _ drink I meant the tem­

hars, o.f .course. We do not refer to the other

kind- as temperance .bans. - - .

309. By Lt-Colonel Bolton.-In v1ew of :what 1ou have s'aid ahout the necessity to protect a soldier himself,- would- y.ou think it E)Xtravagant to suggest that the peoiple shoul, p_ he asked, f!?r term of the waT, to prohibit the liquor in the Interests of our

(liers and t·o - insure of- our l"epatriRJtion scheme bemg am of the opinion that when th-e .half­

past 9 dos,ing :earrne -into force, !1 .P.oll had ·

then been taken for 6 o'dock or total proh1h1twn, the people would ha:ve carried _ quite

sure of that. Hut :when ,the wall' 1s over, 1t will be a different mratter: 1 P:eo:ple WhO fi'OW hatye SOnS at the will then proha,bly say, "Oh, the is oveT, a.nd

our men are ba·ck, so I do .rf.ot care what you do w1th the hotel's." ..._, -

310_. By -Bertator Grant.-;Have you any idea . value ·of the properlties, 'Such as ·hotels- and 'hrewenes, m wh}ch the. drink traffic is, :Conduc,j;ed, .a:n,d, coll!Sequently, of the -big vested in,ter.esrts• we will be up- a:gainst i'f we

a tte.mpt to pronihit the drink traffic entirely ?-There is "no doubt -that the problem will be a big one. r haye been fig1hting the drink tl'laffic. for the la:st tweDJty-seven yea,rs. A _great deal of turmoil will :he caUJsed hy any

attempt to a1 bolish it altogether, but I do not .think there would be any trowhle about the ma·tter fo·r the currency of war. · '

1

"'"'

311. By Lt.-Colonel Bolton.-! presume you .mean that scheme for must be· a.ceoompanied

by a- just and -equit!aible scheme o.f com·pensation. Is that so?-Y·es; otherwise we wou1d be robbing people -who had put _ money into the .busineBs.' 312. By Senitor Grant.-Do you mean thact the

ownel'ls of . breweries who have palatial hotels at vaTious­ street- corners should re·ceive compensaJtion if licences are -abolished, and pr,emise.s put to other uses ?-I think that the ID!1ffi , who has paid £700 Ol' £800 for the i11going of a property should Teceiv,e the compensa.tion, ­ and not the owner of the .block of land. Take Hait•hs in Bourke-street, as an illustration . .._. That was a

.big residential_hotel, and tihe licensee used to ·,pay £16 per week for the prorper,ty. Wihen the licence w;as surrendei'ed to the Reduction Board, the-owne1 r let the property on a long le• a.se to F:a·rhood:, the jeweller, for £32 per week. ' -

But speaking generally, ·do you think that

owner·s of licensed- p·:@IDises would se.cure a larger rental upon the •SUrrender ·Of the Hceneoe ?"'-Not in vi c::uses.

-all seemed to be tho·roughly so,ber, and -my son told me that at the ca1 mp there-wer·e only one or two who were really drunkards, -and he said, ' ". we all shun them." That, in my opinion, is about the position. I am a

teetotaller myself, but I ·cannot say th'at I do no.t know the taste of drink, because to ta:ste it. ·rt is part

314. Do you not -think that, in the great majority ·of ca,ses, the rental would be ve:ry ,much smaller, an:d that the owners would a .severe :financial loss by

the of they 326. Have you had many complaints _as to the treat­

suffer, o_wing to the falling away in the ment of men wh:o -haye returned, from the stand-point

annk traffic, theu ma·m ·.of -revenue -would be of the Government, as well as private employers ?-Yes. gone. - We have quite a number of men .capable of filling Go-

315. are the people yo u -would com.pen- vernment positions, both State and, Commonwealth,· out satf' ?-I the licensee. . . for whom, apparently, work cannot be found, though

316.- 1s 1t not fact when a _ thgre are quite a number of eligible men still in the

money m the _good will of hcensed pr.em1se:S,_ he knows Government service. A specific ca.se is that of the .Vic­ that, at tlme, the. _may right tQrian ra1lways. 1Yien who have been employed in the

hy to prohrb1t the :t_raffic ahogether ?-Lo·cal Victorian railways since their return have been dis­ o,ptwn may. close csome licensed premises, and I think missed on the plea that there has not been enough work . son: e the hotellS in the suhurhs would for them while eligible single men who have not

snffer, out_ no.t ·hotels m. the working men's area and the away been kept on by virtue of thei-r seniority. ' slu_ m portwns of the crty, and not the hotels vV e dq not complain about married · men who are kept

the corners, of Swarnston, Bourke, Ehza;heth. or Ool- on. Our complaint is -in .regard to the single eligible -

lm s stroots. . · - men who are kept on. . If they had not -gone awaj" to

·( The witness withdrew.)

Committe_ e .adjourned at 4.35 p.m. till a.m. day.

(Taken at M

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FRIDAY, 1sT FEBRUARY, l918.

Present:

the Front, the men who have returned would have qua1i­ fied in many for the very seniority which is now

observed, and 'yvhich is successful in retaining the men who have been 'kept on. I have had quite a number of .complaints in this Pegard. 327. By Senator · Colonel Rowell.-Were the men

previously in the employment of the Victorian rail­ ways?-In some cases, I believe, they were, but-I should not like to say it without having the absolute proof. Some have been · given employment -in the railways,

through tli:e Employment Bureau of the State War

Senator ',I'HoMAsJ Chairman; Council, iri order to fill vacancies that have oecurred.

, They were not necessarily men previously employed in

Senator Lt.-Ool. Bolton, I Senator Guy, the Railway Department, out in some cases, I believe,

Senator Bu-z aeott; - Senator-Colonel Rowell. , some of , them were temp.orary hands in that Sen,ator Grant, · - - ment before the war broke out; 1 and they have. had to

Arthur Maddock Dfl,vid, ·Secretary t o the Victorian stand down beeause other. temporary employees had Branch of the Returned Soldiers and s ·ailors Asso- bec6me senior to them by virtu!3· o.f the fact that they ciation, swo:rn and' examined. . continued in the service of the Department while the

317. By the Chairman.-Have you been - to the _ others went to the war. ·

Front?-Not actually at the Front. I was in· Egypt· 3-28. By lJenator Buzacott.-I was under the impres--for one and five months on active serv-ice. sion that employees of the Railway Department who

318. Whaf is the}unction of JOlll" association?-:tts - enlisted, had seniority rights pro-tected?-That. main object is to conserve the interests of its members was supposed to be the case, but I do not know that it by adjl!:sting . any difficulties that may arise in regard has been observe.d. I a:r:p. speaking· of statements that to anomalies concerning pay, pensions, arid have been given to me in writing. -

employment. Another -ob-ject is to surround its mem- 329. By the Chai rman.--When -a complaint comes to -with desirable comforts· a_nd recreation. It -deals you from one of your members, some one connected '

- exclusively with returned so1d1ers and.:: sailors. ', with the organization investigate it 31-9. You do no-t concern. yoursel-ves with ·men going 330. There are very often two sides ·to the case1-tCJ the :front?-No. A man·must ·necessarily have .seen Yes. service in this war, or in some other .· war in which the 331. Have you investigated these particular

Empire has been engaged, 'before he is entitled to mem- Yes, to the fullest' possible extent . . Before I send on a bership. _ · · / case to ::J..ny ·Government Department I endeavour to

320. Do the members pay a f ee?-----:::' Yes, lOs. per ascertain if -it is art absolutely genuine one. I turn

annum. , ' aWiay more than I send along, because they are n.ot

I!ow many members are on your books ?-In- genuine ·Case.s, and consequently I have no difficulty in

eluding country -members, there are, , approximately, securing courteous replie:;; and the fullest investigation .. 6,000 in Victoria. / - into the eases I htt V6 sent on to any Government Depa:t:.t-

32.2 . Are you of the opinion that drink has played ment. Fo:r ' that reason, I have been given to any part in disturbances -at the Fr.ont or in lessening stand clearly that our Branch holds the respect of tb e the efficiency of our soldiers ?-I think it has. Government and the Departments. 323 . 'Speaking fl·om yo u·r person al experience, do you -332-33. Are you satisfied that in a num1er of the think that <:lrinking on the part , of officers has --. cases of men who went into the Railway Department endangered' the lives of the troops ?:-I cannot say that. since their return, and were afterwards dismissed, it

You see, I was not actually at the Front. \ \Then .my was merely because there was no work for them ?-Not battalion went to the Front 1 was serving u.nder I ,t.- on the ·evidence that has come to my notice. R ep:re­ Oolonel Bolton·, 1and was detailed -for work in Alex- sentations made to me, and which I -h ave no reas on to andria-. I was in charge .of battalion r ecords. So I do ub t after investigating them, show distinctly that in cannot speak from personal knowledge of anything that the Railway Department there is the very ·strongest actul!llY happened on_the field. antipathy shown to returned men by their fellow em-

324. · In your position as secretary ·to your association ployees, and in some cases by officers ove r them. While .you deal with complaints made by men who have re- I allow cases that I consider are not there

. are some which appear to me :unquestiopably genuine,

325. Complaints they have in regard to private -em- in which returned men h ave been made the -object, not ployers, ,as well as the Government_?-Yes. only of .ridicule, but also of actual opposition, of

' .

. -

the fact that they' are returned mel}. I did not know - They will have' liquor, but they have it here under

that your inquiry was to cover this matter or I would proper contro1, and -they know that the result, o.f mir ... have brought correspondence with me. conducting themse,lves is the possibility of being '

334. What I am aiming at is to know whether the pe,lled from the ass.ociatiom.." We, ha.ve, not found 1t fault lies with the men ?-I am pleased the inquiry ne.cessary to go to tha,t length except in one or two

- is taking this scope, and, had I known Tt, I would have ca.ses. The place iE· run on the. lines of a we,t canteeu brought alon_g correspondence showing where returned under mjlitary contr.ol, and it has met all our require-h b me.nts. • men have been vilified -for the fact that they ave een soldiers by their fellow employees, an-d in one or two . I iake tha.t your clu? i\ r:lice,

cases by the men over them in offic:bal positions. They VISIOnth·-:- j 11 eY. hptay 0

T?hcaswnha VlbSl s _ 0 see t a

h - b 11 d 11 f f 1 f h · t eve·ry 1ng IE' _ a ng . ere ave •oon one or wo ave een ca e a sorts o oo s or av1ng gone o - · 't d · th -1 t · · 1 t th d th h the Front - VlSI s unng e as s1x or eug1 mon . a.n _ ave . 335 w· ld th ffi · J f t b' ' h · h ffi · 1 expressed themselves as perfectly Satisfied Wlth the

· ou e o. Cla s you r.e er 0 Ig 0 .c:a 8 · manner in wl1ich the club ifi carfied on.

- N ?· I referrmg to those 111 subord).nate posltl?ns, 344. The question_ of the' e,vil of dr,inking has come but over the of whom I am speakmg. before you pretty o•ften

have been made m rega_rd to o.nly ?ne or _ 345. Do' you think that ha,ving an open club has a

offiCials. In most of the cases the hes agamst tenden1cy to minimize, it do. _

fellow emplo.yees. . , _ 346. You do not favour prohibition cannot help

336. The ·Could not dismls.s a man, recognising that intoxicating liquor as a commodity is

but could make h1s pos1t10n awkward ?-'-That 1s so. In a distinct. disadvantage to the nat ion. I have, never some cases, the men over the Teturned soldiers have dis- been an- advo.cate, of prohibition, -but I cannot help say­ missed them. ing _ that the 'greater restrictio·ns, upon drink traffi c t,h er e

337. Do you think that the, statement of those who - are the better it will be for _the con1:munity. If the said t.hat they had been dismissed becaur(e' of lack of tr affic could he redwced to' a minimum, and rpbriety in work was genuine sending to the. the. cominunity generally eould- be secured, I would be

I have received official replies fo say that the -glad. -- ' '

men were dismissed becam'e' of lack of work ." -I speak 347: When soldiers return_invalide d after · a long ab­ principally of the Railway Department . . In some cases se·n ce there is generi.lly a. little exce.ss amongst some the men have produced s,tatements. from their immediate of them; , they me.et their friends., and there is gene­ superior officers showing·that· they have 'carried out their ro[-ity-I will not say generosity-==that is not ·

work moot satisfaotorily. v:ery beneficial ·to them for a- litt.le while?-Yes. _ I

338. You ha,ve had number of eases where mep would -say it is undue generosity and mistaken friend­ have complained to you of their tre,a.tment, in which ship. The military officer of whom I was speaking you believe that the fault was the·ir own are said, "If the boys on coming back have a place like

many leases in which the. fault was distinctly their own. yours to go --to, a pl!llc:e unaer control, it would s.ave 339. When you do not consider a complaint is them from the mistaken of civilians who take

genuine you do not ta.ke' it. up 1-T'ha.t is so. them i;n_to _!he hotels in the streets'." Men who have

340. In those, particular im1tanees do you think that been pwk.ed up in the stre,e·ts, and who have not had a -drink has played · drin_ k in our club ha.ve often _ been brought into- o·,:r

341. What ,would you sugges,t should b·e done· to deal Q1ub ii·nd put 011. to couches off the e.ff E.ds

with cases of that'· kind; I take, it tha.t as secretary of 0! the they from t c·

_you-r association you regret that E,uch things do take hotel. They_ have '?Y J:'eople who tee·l . a

place ?-Yes. - _sort of reflected_ glory m bemg seen w1th ;re,turned men .

34-2 D • · t · k ff . . . 348. Aft.er the· first. week or two do y:ou_find that the

. · oes_ your assoma IOn rna e ,any .e ort to IDllll- majority of the returned men become normal ?-Yes . . lnizte tthhet et• Vhll ?-Wtte. hhavebtaken nbo .Pt· ta.rdtiCular , steps exl- It is just. in the flush of the first return that the greatert ,eep , a . e, m.a er as ·een su

'l f th h l f th l f A t l' 'th e'vi IS one. n or una e y, m many ea1les t e evl

cou?c1 0 . 0 e 0 . e eague 0 us ra Ia WI - is of _.such a, natur e tha-t smne' oor fe.Jlows 1. cannot et

a v1ew to mmimizmg the· dwadvantages tha.t a.ccrue fr0:_m back to the nurmal b caur . d. 1? th · fi t · d g

the' drinking e·vil. It is giving them very great con- sidera_ ble . ' ,

8 - e t

1 e · e rs pe.rio con-

cern,_ and have made their very e,ffo

37

Stat.? t o t h em in t heir .and my ex- 367. B y S enator Colonel Rowell.:_Was drink the

ec ut lVe of the State br anch of Vietoria has. deha,ted this cause ·of the dismissal of the men who were very matter. · Individual ?. pinion,s have been expressed, from the Railway Department do not of one

based on actua1 observatwn, and our committee is The . men who wer e dismissed, appeared to be

in the vie,-'iv tha.t t he L egidature should take Vlery -Tltey were mos!t d:esci..rtous of

· most. action .in s?me. way __ in the m atter of con- assertmg. their mdependenoe by securing employment. trollmg . hquor as aff e9hng the soldier both the man 368. There are many complaints in reference to the who is goi'n g a.way ·and the, m an who I n De·fence. Departmel}t having a number of men employed

regard .to the only thing that . who should not be there; is what we hear in that regard

I can say IS t h at legisJat wn should prohibit _ publicans true 1-It is ·unquestionably true t hat civilians are em­ and p eople, .wherever liquO'r is sold; supplying re- ployed to the exclusion of re.turned As, .a result

' soldiers and soldiers generally with more than of representations I have -had frequent requests from

a specified- and limited supply of liquor at the one time . officers in the Defence Department, even as late as this 355. By S enator Colo nel not that the .mo nintr. for men to fill vacancies in different branches·.

law n ow -I am afraid it iE., but it is not ·enforced . One camiot always supply clerks at t11e particular

3-56. B y S enator Gm .nt.-If a man went to the ne.xt moment v;.rhen they are required. Let me that

hot el .could h e not get another su pply there 1-That -is we do not cavil at .civilians being employed when we, drfficulty: The only t hing is t hat it must he, oh- ca n??'t supply to fill the places. There are many

vious t o. some one a man h as :had enough. positiOns for which we find suitable men. amongst

357 . B y 'f}1e , far -as Victoria is. con- our returne d so1dienY. /

you have received no definite resolution dealing 369. Aft.er a little, while returned men become

w1 th any to he· placed on the agenda, paper - Among these men do you find greater drink­

of t h a.t W e have1 passed a resolution. ing than are' to found among the· -ordinary

358. To deal with the drink question dras.tically.1- population ?-No. There are individual case·s, but as a: Yes . 'gener al rule, I should say returned men are an

359. I s nothing further to go on the agenda pa-per improvement on the ordinary -body of citizens. , ·

from yo-u ?_:_No, not 80- far, · be;caus.e the matter has 37·0. In regard to the closing of hotels when troop only recently to a head, and we have' jus.t finished ships are in port, I suppose Melbourne is not so much

our ann.ual mee.ting, which has taken u p a good deai aff ected as other places ?-It is not of much use closing of t he t.1me o·f the· executive; but on Tuesday night, at the' hotels, at Port Melbourne when they are open all the ordmary ·committee meet ing, some' sugges,tions will along the line. , .

be put forward to send to the Confere,nce for eonsd.dera- 371. By S enat01·-Lt.-Colonel B olton.-How long were tion . So far it has not e,v-entuated. · you in Egypt?-From the 7th December, 1914, until

360. Would it he ·a fair thing ·for the Comip.onwealth the_12th April, 1916. or the to deel ?-re -that no publican 372. 'Vha.t was. your unit, and whe·re was it_ .camped?

sha_ll S1 er:re mtox icatmg 1Iquor t o· any person in uniform -I was in the 8t_ h Battalion. Vve were camped at while Sltill. to have drin1d-It- ml.ght

not be fair , but m the· mte.res t,s, of the army and' the 373. What were your duties: ?-I was orderly room -men gener ally it would be desirable . clerk. , ·

361. But you think there would be a c:ertain amount _ In position y ou h ad. exceptional oppor­

of would he unfa:lr to the man who is of .th:e _ e,ffects' of drmk as rep-ards Y?ur

capable of haying a drink and going no further, but particular umt?-Yes .. I had . to present ·the cn!I}e such a man should be magna ·m h t .d , sheets t-o the. ·commandmg officer, and see that they

the -- m ous enoug 0 c<4nsil ·er were pr:operly prepared, and that the men were there

362 B S . B . . . . to ans1 wer the charge•s.

h

· Y 0 1 . t t. -Should n?·t Cl vi hans also _ 3 7 5. Did you learn fl'om correspondence from A us-

ave that cons:Ideratwn so I thmk 1· e1 • h d · . . · ' · _ tra Ia that vaptam Bean · ad rna e· some s:enous reports

a 363. B y the ._ C(hmrman.-To what 'Yould it conc-erning the conduct -of Australian troops during the ffect recruitmg of men 1-I thmk It would .firs,t f.ew weeks··thev were in

affect 1.t to the _extent of ·ODe recrmt.- / - 376. Were . the men· very much annoyed at those _

364. Do you think tltat repatriation _will be the annoyance among them was uni­

rendered more difficult by returned soldiers being versal. allowed to .have· drink, and -by people being allowed to 377 . . Do you remembe·r the conditions under whicH "sh.out '' for them ? ...,.-;:::-Yes,. a man's the men first ente,red that camp at Mena, that is to

e:fficrency as · a civilian. Without drink they would !:lay, in regard to money and pa::z.,?-Yes . . pr?ve more wo rthy of "being repatriated. 378._ Very little, pay was given during the seven

The us:@ of hquor would place them in a dis1 advant- weeks"' f2·ea. voyage any. at all.

ageous po-sition. 379. And' on the se-cond day after binding an order

Do you know of pe.rs.ons who have left as1 total was. issued that the to he paid in full

or e·xtremely mode'rate drinkers, and who until the date of .their arnval m E gypt, and subse­

have. come back under the cur8e of drink ?-I do' not quently at the :rruaximum rate of 2s. a day?-Yes. k now of a s.peeific case wliere men have -come hack 380. Were pay sheets made out in order · to carry

wit h a. s1 t r on g; des.ire for liquor as liquor, le-t alone being order into effect?-Yes ; I made them c:.It for our confirme,d drmkers. I do know, of. cours,e, of men who unit. 1

went away teetotalers; /and learned to drink while away, .381. W.as it the result that IP;ost of the r::. cn had a on the ot.her hand, I "know of men who were fairly large sum of money durmg the tihree or

drmkers before· they went away, and who, while m four days they were ii} Egypt?-Y oo. Smgle men -Egypt , de,finite1y r elinquished the habit and became who were not .to leave allotments at home

t otal · abs1 t ainers for the· sake· of wives mothers or had conside,rable sums paid to them. sisters1 . I n my ex-perien ce, this. was due to: the 382. Do you- remember the arrangements that were

e·xample se t. by · · made in regard to ?-Yes .

. 366 . By Senato1• G?·a-n t. - Would t h e quality of drink 383. \Vhat was ?he pe,rcentage of men that were to m . E gvnt h ave anything to do with this ?-I do not leave 1-I thmk It was 5. per cent. .

so . t hey wanted anything t h ey could ge·t it. 384. How many troops were I.n Mena Cai?p

They could always get pass·ahle beer the re. I n fact , were well over 201000 Australian troops m the first they -could get spirits if they so wishe-d .. · <;amp ·

.--

What would be the number of men getting 404._ Was ;no·t much of this due to the fact7 that men

away from Mena Camp each night on 1- About unable to get back to; camp at 9 -o'clock 1---'-T-here

1,000 would be away on official leave. . is ·no-doubt as to that.

386: And I supp'Ose the 'sau'lle number would he away -'. 405. The t-ram system could- not bring _ them without official leave 1-Quite. · They could not/ trave.l in and ge.t back in the al-

387. It _would not be far wrong. to say that every lowed,_ · -

night there would he between 2,000 and 3,000 men 406. Many realizing that they would arrive late at

away from the camp on leave ?-There wo·uld be fully camp said t.hey might as weJl be killed for a sihoop as that number away. . for ·a lamb, and stayed :all night in Cairo ?-That 1s

388. What was the distance ,of the camp from Cairo 1 - true. - 9 or 10 miles. , . . . 40!·. Then the ?rst fe,w weeks-, owing t Q the

389 .. What were the of gettmg mto Cairo cond :!_tiOns· preva1hng, qmte· a number of Australians

Electnc tra1J!s. , with in their pockets, a_nd wiN1 no experience of

- 390.- How many_ men per hour would that tram contip_ent1 al life, were _. roaming about. the highways and -, carry ?-Each would carry about men, of Cairo a.ll night ?-That is so. , .

and_ a.s the cars ran at mtervals of a few mmutes: I 408. Having a kno.wledge of all these things, are you _ sho'G:.d that they would_ be of able to express an opinion as to whether the liquor

whole of the men on mto Cairo Withm an traffi.c, as it came under your notice in that period of

.h?ur: At any rate ,_they would _convey 1,000 of them training, seriously affected the efficiency of the soldiers · w1thm an hour · · · I ·ld · h · d'd rf'h

391 Wl

. · , . - m tra1mng .- wou not say t at It 1 . .b e great

. . 1at time·. did. the JOUrney occupy ?-A car fre- bulk f th -th h-1 bl f d · th ·

t l t k f 11 h · · 1 d · o e men were oroug - y cap a e o omg eu queu y oo _ u y an our, lllC u mg stoppages. · b d - 392. As a rule, a.t what t.ime were thes< e men, given JO any ay. - -

leave ?-Leave was granted after the afternoon parade, 409 · By . Se'[bator !Jolonel R?well.-1!-ost of the which would be over about 5 o:'clock. Passes _as a rule . charges the were for overstaymg leave,

were made out from 5 o'-clock, but most of the men not for drunk .-Yes. The _drunk charges

would not leave until after ·tea. at the outside fifteen or men out of the battahon.

393. of the units were camped quite a distance Most of the -men(' were behaved. men. There

from the terminus of the tram Yes, .fully ,a mile were only about nfteen men 1n our batt ahon could _

away. be. marked as who gave t :!:"ouble in regard to

394. If they left at 5 o' olock it would ·take the men drmk. in those camps fully a quarter of an hour to .walk to . 410. Senator· Lt.-Colonel. B_olton.-On r epresenta­ the tram terminus ?-\Ve were- camped on the e.dge of bemg made _ to .the authorities_ as how these con-the desQrt the furthest-put, arrd_ it would take us every ditl?ns . W%e .·operating the men, was not, a ___ whole

rninut,e of twenty _to twenty-five minutes to get. to the -g1ven so that the whole day could be spent

tram terminus. same .remarks would apply to the Cairo . _ . _

horse units on the other side of the desert. - __ 411. Do you. _ know case·s of drunke:r:ness

- .395. At. what time ha.d' the men -to return to canip ?- weTe consider--

Lights out; at o'clock, and they had. to be' back ably afte-r t hat anangen;-ent was mact'e-. , I _do. .

by. u ligJ:!ts out." 1n the case of_ men of good behaviour _412. The:re was no, furt.he·r trouble wit·h

was granted urit,iJ midnight. Afterwards I be::- thG troops m that

0 • _ _ / . .

lieve it was a gene-ral rule to grant leave until midnight•. t4e·y a oppor.tup.Ity . of

396.· But- what. was. the. rule during the period in r:e- utrhzmg the·Ir _leave :n an mtel!Igent ; and · Ins.truchve d t h' h t · B f · d h' · · · Th manner the'y took advant.age of It had a most de,-

- gar o w rc ap am ean orme Is opmwn e .- · , bl · ff , - h . -.·11 -- I ·f

h d t b · b "l' ht' t '' d · · d · b ·th srra e e eotl on t. e men genera y. requently men. a o e m y 1g s ou · an JU -gm 0' y e · , · · - _ . . . . ' ; ' : : o · heard in the. tents and ot:her plaoes the remark, " -The - crnne sheets, the cases m whiCh that hmit was exceeded h . d . I · th . · a· ·n 1 't 'th Were in:finitesimaJ. . -ea S are p aymg e. game,_ an W(lo WI fU_ p ay 1 WI 397. The gardens and museums in Cairo were closed the4ml.; "I,t The lhthad a.l. mthost sal 'tary effectt: t 6 ' 1 . k y . "±. ' was sar au, a o1Jg 1 e men were e a 398° 0\h-;: t:S· . h , 1 f . t 5 , 1 . k d'd wru:f not given te them fo:r going • · 0 a . e men w .0 t camp 0 c _I mto Ca1ro .,;_ there a;rlJ1 other.:- place to whwh th.e not ha-ye much tlme for :- gOing mto them· · N °· . men could go· after trudgmg abont the desert all day 1- _In the, :first weeli: or two _ they were permitted to No, except; for the, man_ who had a hobby ,· and- would mto some of the best hote.ls go to the pyramids to dig for curios. . _ 400. And ·subsequently .these hotels were placed out 415. - Since your--- connexion . -with the· Returned of ?-So f-ar the·re was no- prohibitiC?n .. Soldiers and Sajlors Association_ you ha:ve been brought agamst any of the The only P!aces that into con-tact with a great many returned men?-Yes. we-re out we!e known plaoes 416. · w :ould you reg1-ard these men as quite normE tl, At firsf.-the best hotels were, open to the pnvate· or the t 11 ·d h · 11 th t · 11 · f th · -- - 1 · men a y an p ys1ea y ; a Is, . a owmg · or eu B s t c l z R ll - Afte . d th . wounds ?-The great majority I should r_ eg:ard as rLor- .lo Yd 'l enay , or b 0 t01:te ' OW'e .t· - lrwat.rhi'nsg· feoyr . mal, but there are many who have' been affected by were c se .- es, ·u 1 was qu1· e -a. regu a.r h II h k ·d h 1 f · · - T h · men' of any rank who had the money to into.: them. s e oc an .. t e resu t o actrve servrce '¥\• o are As a general rule, it wasonlythe who were accus- poranly but no.rmal. . . , tomed to that sort. of thing at, whG, we;nt there for . po you d1scover m all men cer,tam dis- their diuner or foT a game 0 £ hilliards. mchnat10n to down t? C_lVIl occupatiOns, at any 402. By Senato1• Lt.-Golonel Bglton.-What wa; ·the ra_ te, fGr some time?---:-Yes, m a great nm:p.ber of them percentage of absence·s without leave in the first few I do. . , . . . weeks; do y_ou remem·ber any ma·ximqm-number on any 418. You n? doubt, an opporturnty ?f seem g morning, a number tEat would be a shocking example the effect of hquor m your club; do you ·COnsider that under Australian oondit,ions' ?-I cannot give the a . smaller quantity of I.iquo r. will will :figures, but approximate)y the greatest number would affect JTien who have hved m ordinaTy cueumstances ? be not more than thirty in our battali6n. , , -I do_ . _ _ 403. Do -you ,remember its being reporte-d that one· 419. Having regard to the grea-t problem of repatr ia-unit of the 2nd Brigade had 278 men absent without tion; the small nu:rq.ber of men who have returned, and leave one night 1-I remember something of the- kind. the large number that have to be dealt with, an,d

\

f

"495 .. -' .

39

j

also having regard to the .responsi.l!ility of the Govern- half a mile long. Ther_ e .was one canteen supplying "the inent in this connexion, would deem it an extreme. second brigade of 5,000 men, ,and there were visitors , that the ·state sho11-ld impose total prollibi".: from other ca:g1ps where there were no G.an.teens.

tlon durmg the tenn of the war _ and repatriation · 435. By Senator Grant.-In your opinion, a wet can­ I would welcome.,..it, jn view of' the seriousness of 'the · teen is Yes, as a means of restricting con-

situation to-day and the need-for efficiency. It wo-uld sumption. . , -

be a great adv-antage. . " 436. At camps and in your own club?--:-Yes.

420. By Senator G-rant.-,-How long h. ave you been {37. But -not at-the Newport Workshops?-No. secretary to you r association ?-:For twelve months. 438. Do ·you suggest that returned men should have 421. Do yo'!!- sell spirits in your club ?----:-Yes; we have · j)re'ference of employment to the exclusion o£ who an ordinary clu'Q licence. have remained in positions ?-Unquestionably, wl;lere it

422. What ·is the licence-fee per annum?-We . is a case of single men or single eligible men. a renewal-fee of £3 3s. per_ .annum, and a percentage on - 439. Do you think that the single eligible man shcmld the liqugr sold. , . · - b.e discharged, and that his position should be given to

423. -0an ·civill ans ·obtain drink=at your club?-No; a returned man?-Yes. they are not permitted to enter the club unless they .are 440. How m-any men have been dischar ged from ' the -Jnembers of the association. Of c_ ourse, we have visitors· Victorian Railways who have .been !llembers of your who come to see us out of sheer interest in the soldier's association ?-I know of about :fifteen cases ..

weliare. They generally leave a they are 441. And/ none of those was due to excessive .

satisfied with the .arrangements m1 ade. -The Governor- drinking?--:::oNo. -General has. visited us. Our donations in this regard So far as ;yon know; _these cases were merely

a,ifiouij.ted to £200. due to the lack of em£loymetit ?-That is. so.

424. You have what is a wet canteen on the pre- 143. During your -stay in Egypt, did you see any-

mises ?-yes. . thip.g there in connexion with the liquor that

425. Are you in fa:v·our _ of wet being estab- &eriously impaired' the stamina and efficiency of Aus­ lished at training camps the absence of -prohi- t-ralian soldiers ?-The.re was an element which, if in­ b. · ..- dulged in, certainly did so. There . were numbers of

1t10n, I am" in favour o.f_ canteens, because they specific cases wh'ere bad liquor '

are a meap.s of restricting the consumption of liquor. 444. Wias the liquor sold at . the c;anteens of good 426. Would you be in "favour · the Government quality?_:..Yes. I think beer only was dispensed there. starting a wet canteen at. an establishment like theN ew- 445. Are the men who to you _ at your club

port ?-No. The men _·at the Newport ' stranded in that condition because -they have been drink:

Workshops work there for eight hours, and they ought , ing ·exce ssively_ in and round Melbourne?-Yes. · to be able to- go without drin:k- during that period._ 446. Are there ·many of them?-Very fe.:w _as com-When a in a training camp fias finished his work pared with our numerical strength· as an organization. and is not allowed away _on leave, ,he- :i:s confined· to the . 447. How many have you had there during your camp, and in his recreation hours he should have the twelve months as secretary ?-I have not kept a record op-portunity of obtaining a drink. . . of the numbei, but there are about_. three cases a week

_ 427. Is the bar section of your club a paying con- _of men who come up to see me, or some of my

ce_ r:a ?- no -great profit in it ,as y.et. I" saw. tliat staff,- say that they no_ money. I am not

stuff was going up in price, and - I bought at a l0w .., s..peaking of members of our assodation, but of returned figure. But we do not desire to -make a profit out or . men who come to us off the streets knowing that there> the club §>o much as we desire to provide· a good article is a Re,turned Soldiers. Association, Gt.nd thj nking that for the ·boys at a reasonable price. they> can get help and, perhaps, a few shillings. Very

428. Would a wet canteen have been a ad- few of the members of our association, who pay their

junct _t o the ·establishment at .Mena ?-We had one lOs. 'a year su-bscription, come up in this way. there. / =- · - _ 448. Does intemperance exist t.o any extent among ..

429. stillleave.c_amp 'and go into Cairo? the young Australian com.pared-with who are about

-The establishment of the wet eanteen was the meimR 40 years of The younger section of. :roops

of satisfying- thousands of the .sQldiers. - They ·were pel'- is remarkably sober in its habits. My expenence IS that fectly satisfied with. havi_ ng a drink -in camp, and re- the men who drink to excess are the older men. mained in camp. . . 449 . Do you think it a wise always to

430 . ·But many still wen £ into Oa _- iro ?_:_,Yes. intoxicating liquor at a club estabhshed. for purposes, and fo,r the objeots you, have meJ?-twned- - - 131. Lt._ -Colonel Bolton.-The canteen always to have in front of the young Austraha.n men:­

was not established until some weeks after the camp was hers of the club that which they do not see m theu ?-N;o. - There was a limited supply of beer to home·s. does it not t·end to induee1 them to try-the eff- elct

each Ilf.an. There was quite a number who were of bee; upon them the wray question is J?Ut I

satisfied when -they got their dixie of beer. . should say it is 'not deSiira;ble, . but m our club liquor

432. By S enator Grant.-=Ho":' long- was the cair;.p is not always . before them. We have t.hree ver'!. la;rge

establlshed-be£ore the canteen was started ?-About SIX floors running from Swam:.ton-street · to the lane. f,or weeks. _ _ which we pay an of £600. The bar IS set

- ·right away baok on the top flo01r , and of our

. _,..433. And-; after the establishmen.t of the wet canteen, members never go ne·ar it. We ha.ve -a read1ng room , did the number of 'absent-without .... leave cases decrease? a writing room, and- a. tlie first floor where -I' do /_not know that there ,are any statistjcs as to that, they can get tea and coffee, and Qn

but, in a general' w,ay, in view of what I said just now, the next floor there are throo full-sized- billiard ma ny men l.iem ained in camp beSLUSe they C_?Uld get and .the men who in billiards very. r_arely in­ their beer there. · · dulge in liquor.4 The men who use the readm.g room

434. By Senator Lt.-Colonel Bolton.- Oould you see uoo it for self-improvement. The bar trade. · Is 7 ery - a of !nen with their dixies a - quarter. of mi!e small and is limited to men who meet the,Ir fnends

long waiting for their beer?-Inste ad.of m there' when they come back, and to a few habitues of

· groups, if they extended in a deuble fil e 1t m1ght be the place w.ho . are genera.Uy men over 40 years of age.

40

450. By Senator Buzacott.--..::T'he re.turrted soldier who · pays lOs. per annum to join the association is entitleci to the use o.f the club?-Yes.

467. Are many re-turned men employed in the De­ fenoe Department ?-I _ do not ln1ow the exact :figures, but theTe are quite a number of returned me.n em -

_451. Have y ou a temperance -bar· after 6 o'clock?-.Yes,. on the second floo r_ in the .

ployed there. _

452. It ·has no connexion with the bar?--No·; there are two large floors be.tween it and' the• bar.

· 468. 'As many as satis:fies the associatien ?-Not by -any means.. I ha,ve men a.pplying to me. no-w for cleri ca( positions, and I h ave sent t h em down to the Depart; ment, but h ave not hwn able· to obtain employ ­

ment.

. 453. The, establishment of the club prevents men from being led astray by civilians outside t hrough t b "treating" ha.bit ?-That is 469. In an y' 'of the-se caret:> is the drinking h abit ad­

vanced as a reason for their not b eing· , employed ?-No·. The only reason that I have found where men have n o1' been taken on is that the·y a.r e not competent as clerical

454. Are you of opinion that if anti-shouting were enforced it would minimize. the· drinking e•vil ?-The-re is l1 o· doubt a.bout it. 455. On your return voyage did you notice• a.ny ex­

oossive' drinking men who landed at /Colombo?

-No. I was detailed for the duty of taking the. name[4 of those. who arrived on the boat aft.e·r the. presc-ribed hour of 6 o'cl ()jck , and did not notioe any eases of d runk­ enne

board, but they were duly conf:is.eated and thrown into the Eea. 456. You are aware that }lotels ,an' closed at the dif­ fer:ent ports of eall. n ow?-'--Yes.

-457. _Have you given any consjde•r ation to the ques-. tion of establishing canteens. under ·military control_ a.t the ' different port s. where the boakr call 458 . You think it is- necessary to clos-e the h otels 7__:.. It is a distinct advantage. The · mep. have• only a few hours' le-ave, a.n d it gives leriS !Ch ance of their the• boat: or getting into trouble.

459. By S ena tOT G1ty.-In the conduc-t of your club you d o not seek a profit, and the.re is. no . inducement to y our to drink is the p qsition

e·xactly. -

. 460. You rather d-isc ourage' drinking ?-Yes, as far aft possible. '

461. -The regtrictions on the consumption of drink are. a.t the dis.cretion of the person who is· s-e-rving?-y e-s,, he· is under specific orders:. - /

462. Drink may affe.ct one man mo·r et than another ?-That is so. -

463 . Closing at -6 o'!Clock is a dis,tinct advantage?-Ye,s. · ·

464. In rega.rd to neglect to e mploy re-turned

-sqldierr·, your rema.rks would _ apply to private employe• rs­ as. well as to the_Gove.rnm-ent ?-We .have had· some · bad cases in regard to- private emp lo e.rs whor;e p•ro mis.e·s ha.ve not been .kept. In one pa.rt.icular case the

man affected hasr sinoe been by anothe,r :firm ,

and has given gre•at satir,faction.; but it iR us·ele.ss to blin-k the fact. that the,re are many in the community. Government servants and R_r i:vate employees-, _ who have a d_is.tinct spirit of antagonism. towards. re,turned men I - am not here to the motive, but the evidenee is

pretty J_conclus-ive•. In m any eas.es ' it is due to a. sense of j-e,alousy, be;caus-e of the fact. that the-s·e men have -been a.way fi f!'hti nQ" , and 'it prevaib among eligible men who are employed in Gove;rnment departments to-day,

1 sneak_ of this more in sorrow t han in anger. _ -

- 465. Have you known of any cases in which private--

employers have refused to take back men for whom they_ distinctly offered to keep places open t;ta.tements of the' men th-emse-lves, yes; · bu t in order • to 'have the m atter on a proper b asis I ·would prefer

to see written agreements or something of,_ the sort.. I have in my mind one particular :firm that promised _ its. men t hat the

r. have j us.t referred to whe.re the man has g'ot another pos.it.ion: and seems to· be giving g-reat sat;sfaJction .-1 466. Wiere/ m any returned soldiers en:tployed in the

polling booths at the recent r efe rendum put . i l"\

30 to 40 men, but I do not kno,w of

· more tha,n fifteen of them who were actually employed as ec r ut-inoors or Deputy Re·turni.ng Officers. '

men to do the worb I would never dr.ea:1n of sending a man along unles-s there wa.s.- wme· outside evidence. of his. capacity to do the work. I turned down a numbe•· of them.

470. By Sena,tor Colonel Rowell.-Sometimes me-n are recommended wh en they- are. n ot is so . T'her men may be. faidy presentable , and ma v have· a fair addrest:l. The only proof you can ha..ve when they say t hat t};ley can do clericaJ ·work is t h at the- ­

can write down their names and a.ddresses. When it comes to actual work, invqlving fig ures and brains, the is quite_ different, and m any men are found un­

suitable. 471. By Senator have ment1oned that

drink played a cons,iderahle part i n dis.turban:ces and that kind of thing in- the ea:rly part of the war; have ' JOU found as time· goes• on tha.t t h ere, h as been any irr ­

provement here or abroad-?- \Vhile, I w ,..as away I di rl · not know ·. the aetual condit ions here, and now that 1 • am here I do not know what is t aking place on the other side; but from ieading I should say that the conditions have / been improved ver y considerably under military discipline. _

4 72. When were' in Egypt the- ravages of

re:al disease must have come under your did drink lead to those cases, ?-"-I am absolutelv certB.i .I tha.t it d i-d in a majority of car.e s-. I was. d.etailed by .

my commanding officer t o change t he E gyptian money possessed· by the boys on the :firs.t boat into English a,nd that brought me· fo_ r the first and _only time

into contact with tlre _venereal ' ca.mp. While I was the.re, I took the =-und er the guidance' of a

non-commiE".sioned officer, thi:Q.gs. The case

of a boy whom I h ad to visit.vms particu(-larly painful. Accordi.ng to his own sJatemen-t he; had never had any assolciation with a woman of any kind until he, beeame associafed with one in Egypt. The d octor said that he had ,come home tO of s.yphil:itl.

473 .' Was he led to that by driiJ.k he said

that he would never have gone to the place if -it _had not been for the fact tha t he was in a hotel and had

drink. _ ,

i1:74. By S enator Grant.-Did any come

under your notice where drink was r esp onsible know of any amount. of cMes. whe>re· men to me

that 'had it not been t h at they were "potty," to use tlreir own word, they would not h ave got into brothels. 4 75 .. Have cases of venereal dise-ase come under your notic-e while the peJ;sons were sober ?-I coUld n ot say that. One would. have to .as.socip,te with the individuals to know that. ..

476. Was. there only· this. particu lar case that came under your notice in which the, pe·rson affected had been drinking when he contracted the disease ?-I cited that ·case as one- that st_?.n ds very .cle·arly, because I h ad

official bus,iness with the hoy, hut I should say tbat in hundreds of cases it would be a direct resru lt of me.n being muddled .;ith drink -and no-t, realizing, as a sober man would, the they .}Ve•re t aking .

4'77 . vVh at percent age of cases, would he 'due to in­ dulgence in intoxicating' liquor s, and what percentage would · occur while the parties,. were in a s.tate of

' .

41

s·ohriety would not . express an opinion as to the- in ca'i11p to go on leaye:, each evening. A ce.rtain pTo­

per.oentage. I do not say that while a- man -is actually portion of the men a r-e also allowed week-end leave from drunk h e has gone into these plaoos., but I do say that 'the 8aturday afternoon to the Sunday night. men have been made careless ·in the condition of their 487. If the men were inclined to drink} the week­ minds as a- result of even a moderate u sle of drink, - end• leave would furnish th:em with their greatest op­ have gone into these pla·ces just as men do after · portunity ?-No; their greatest opportunity to drink is

liquor. One can throw a s.tone fr'oi? m aiter pay day, which occurs fortnightly. At one time

Cairo, on to a brothel in almost any direc.tiOn: I have we paid the men on the l&t of eve·ry mont_h, and about s.to od on t he corner and see.n boys gomg mto these - the 14th or 15t.h of the month; now the·y are paid o·n places. In m any instances I endeavoured to pe,r - every alte.rnate F'riday. Some would get leave on

suade young fellows. not to go mto them. Friday night, and would be absent next day.

4?-8 . Were the.y - teetotallers they were men 488. Vl ould .the Monday following pay-day your

who taken h/quor, a?-d . they were as worst da:y for dr0ling men'?-There would ? ·e m ore men

whether they would do this, or not._ they not ha absent without leave on ,the Monday followmg pay-da)T· ?orne drinJr they not h0ve /gone mto these places Of course, all soldiers do not drink; only a small per-

m many cases . - . . . centage of them take liquor to excess.

" 479 . If they had -not been gettmg ·drmk at the· wet canteen they wou., d not have gone in search of these 489_ .. 'Vould the fact of a small J?ercentage of the m.en pla.ces ?-I do not _ say that. The w.as 10 to camp the for the, tram­

away, and before they wo uld reach Cairo the e·ffect of a more .·-I t1 hmk It· would. On

the beer they ·would have· at the ·canteen would he worn ·.rou.te march, for_ a man who had been

off. Th ey were only allowed a pint of hee·r a day. at tl:e armkmg the ,. preeedmg mght would probably knock I am speaking of. the _drink the.y m ur:, a?d hmder the march . The man who had been

Cairo. - drmln?-g would he- dull and slo:W of on the

480. According to your evidence· it is. only men who · f?llowmg day , and he would mterfe.re with the eH1-were addicted to drink in a moderate degree that went . cwncy of the whole company. into these p laces.?-=-I do not w ish to convey thaL 'im- 490. You are of opinion · that drink amongst. some of pression . . · · _ / _ the soldiers has to the difficult.y of training om:

481. Can you _give us apy idea_ of t he of men, -and has lessened to some extent the efficiency of our

moderate drinkers and non-drinkers. who were affhcted force·s ?-Yes., with: dis.e,aseJ-I could not do so._ . I do not 491. - vVould tlie majority of desertions he due to

know the number ?f men w.h?' v-enereal diseaSie·; drink ?-I would not say that the majority .are caus'ed would I ever be ·m. a pos,Itwn to. venture an opmwn J5y arink. The man viho has been drinking will- very as to how many were or to how . many often come into camp drunk; the dese·rter is usually a

took drink . If I conveyed the 1mpress10n it man who is sorry- he has volunte·ered, ·or is· afraid to

OJ?-ly men. wlio to·ok liquor wJ:lo got venereal diseas.e, I ........ go to tl1e Front. - One _ maii enlisted in Sem ­

did not mtend to do so . I kn.ow that men went. to mens' battalion in the early days of the, . war and

these. places who never drank. The-y: took the nsk. deserted. In order to make sure of getting- hin1 out of 9nly two I I wa:;s w1th a / wh_7 country we h a"d to _ put him iri ·gaol. Once he

a VIs.It to places, and he· was perfectly knew he was about to be embarked he ate soap unbl he

sobe·r, but I lum not to go. . . neaily killed himself, and on another oc¢asion he knocked

· 482 . By t h:e Ohairman.-Gan you give the naJ?les d his aaainst a wall until the'r were all swollen,

thoE•e m€m who were _ d1ismiss,ed ,froi]l the R\a.Lh:•ay:s and he was mi:fit f or duty . On the third ceca­ Department through. lack ··_ of employment, espe_ Clally sion he jumped from a train while it was in full motion. - thos.e who; were wor1nng there before they went to the I remember that his case was. mentioned in the Senate war7-Yes. · . . . . · . by Senator Blakey; who ventilated . a complaint

483 . Do you get any from pnvate firn:. _ his long imprisonment and the re.fusal of the authont1es

asking you t,o supply them W)th men?-Y es , almost to allow his wife to see him. He had no wife. He

every day, and so:tpe,t.imes several time& a day. wound up hi§ mili!ary by -cutting off two of his

' Major Gus Ebeling,_ D .S .O ., President of Standing fin gers with a m e·at chopper and deserted from a trans­ ' . Boards, Viatoria Barracks, Melbourne', sworn an} port at Durban. examined. -492. Were the.re any disturbance's at either Bendigo

. 484. By the Oha1:rman.-Have y0u had extended camp or Royal Park .camp ?-I d

served for two years and e.Ie.ven m the . Boer a.bout a shortage .of meat or the quahty of the food, hut

first as private, and suhs,equently A.E' an ' t h ere was no senous trouble. _ . . .

and I was on active service for two years in the present 493. You believe that efficiency has been mmnmzed war, five . and a half at _ Anzac .. I by the d rinking habits of of the 7-I am

joined , camp m Melbourne- a.s aJ .ciVlhan, but ?btamed the men wo uld he bette-r off wit hout drmk. · / my commission before embarkatwn, ,and rP ('CJved my · 494 . I take it that most of the nien took drink be­ captaincy :. a1id ma1ority at Anzac. Y. fo re they joined?- Yes, but the:re are a lot. of young

to Aus.traha I was1 m charge of the Bendigo Car 1lP hon, fBllows wit.hout much ballast who seem to desire to take July to the end of , 1916, and-_ i hen m geer as soon as they get into Trave.Uing. _ in

charge of Royal P ark Camp mun!,.ls. . . .. - the co u ntry, one can see yo ung on leave tryn;g

485. Have .you f?und that h?quor m te1 - to get b ee r at every station . to my home m

perceptl_bly with

trammg of men .-Yes . It the country, I h ave frequently notlCed thrat conduct on

- mihtate·s the· effimency, not only ?f the man the p art of young soldiers, p articularly at and

who takes h quor, hut also of the men shanng the tent C 1

. /

with him A returning drunk to the camp at ast emame. . , _

night disfurbes -his ten _!Ilates when they in. the 4'95 . When troop tr.am i passmg, refreshment

middle of their r·es:t and next day -they are all tued, bars at the r ailway stat10ns are close d can

and do not take their t raining as they might if closed at. the request of th e Cornman mg · u t

the were fresh. - that st ep not taken. W.hen troops were bem g sen

What leave is given in camp ?-Latterly the from Bendigo for embarkation the refresh.ment rooillS'·

arrangement has boon t o allow per cent. of the men en route never closed.

/

.·

42

496. What number of men were in the Bendigo and Royal P ark camps ?-Bendigo camp had accommoda­ tion for about 2,000 men, and generally there were about 1,700 men there. Royal Park camp had a capa­ city of about 3,000 men.

497 . Which of the two camps was the better be­

haved ?-Ben_ digo. Being a smaller camp, one could control the men better. It was 8 miles from Ben­

digo, and there was only one h ote.l near by, and the i)ublican kne.w tha.b he must not serve the men during parade hours.. Another circumsrtance which conduced to good behaviour was the fact- of the camp being fur­ the·r away from the ordinary temptations. The men at Bendigo· camp we re mostly count•ry men 1 and they seemed to me t9 be more solid and steadier than the city

men. 498. Are you in chai'ge· of any camp now ?-No ; I am the President of the Standing Bo·ard$ at District. Head-Quarters.

499. Apart from your official duties·, have you come into contact with many returned soldie.rs who experi­ ence difficulty in ge·tting employment ?- I have. found employment for a numbeT of men I knew, both in the Defence Department and with private firms . · There are nearly always openings in -the Defence Department for -a good, steady man. In all cases the men have

turned out well, but they were all fellows whom I knew to be reliable. 500. Are there any men whom yo·u have· not felt jus­ bified in r ecommending ?-Yes, and the· chief reason for

tha.t has been that the man has boon unsteady and drank to excess. I ·would not recommend for empJoy­ ment a man who is addicted to drink. 501. Do you think -that the drinking habit. of a cer­

tain proportion of ' our men will make the work of re­ patriation more difficult '1- I do. One has only to walk down SwanstO'll-stnet from Collins-street to Flinders-·to r ealize that. '

502. Can you make any suggestion to cope with that trouble?-No. 503. Do you ·think that if t1i.e drink traffic were

abolished altogether it would be an advantage? - I · think it would . After the Boer war a lot of good men · became unst eady iri. their habits, and they died -off like flies. I was in two_ different contingents in whiclf

a· certain number of meu and officers who--,.were un; steady wli en they returned, and none of them lived long. A lot of my Boer war oomrades went from. Aus­ tralia- with the First Division sent abroad in this war,

and I suppose t•hey were the backbone of the - forc es which -landed at Anzac. A certain number- of them were· intemperate, and they were not- much good as soldiers.. I have personal knowledge of two officers,

and, perha-ps, half-a-d.ozen men who were regarded as efficient soldiers in Africa, but who, owing to their in­ temperate habit$, were -nnt go_o d soldiers. in the pre­ sent war.

504. Do you think t hat if all officers and soldiers were tot-a.l abstainers all-round benefits would result?­ I am sure they would. you think it would be fair for t.he· Common­

wealth to say that as long as the war lasts, and until the t ro ops are demobilized, no liquor shall be served to men in uniform, m to soldiers -who haye been re­ patriated ?-I wo uld indorse a proposal that no liquor should be served to anybody; but it wo uld he unfair to

refuse a drink to a soldier, and allow the man who

stays at home to take as much . as he likes. !j06 ._ Suppose the people to s•ay thaL for the sake of the soldiers they would close up the liquor traffic during the currency of the ?-I do not think that

would be a very great. sacrifice for the· nation to' make . 507. ·By S enator Bolton. - You have

knowledge of the t_raining of the men for the First Divi­ 7- - Yes.

5os. During the ilrst few weeks of training at Broad­ meadows, did you notice ·tihat the drinking · habit inter­ fered very much with the t.raining of the men ?- Yes. I remeii!_ber on occasions - a man coming home

drunk, and making a mess· of h·is -tent. Eventually we turned him out Df the Forces, and did not take him from Australia. -509. On· the. occasion of the :first parade through the streets of Melbourne, did you notice anY of the men with bottles of beer in their pockets ?-I do_ not remem­ . ber that ..

510. By what 'transport did you- leave Australia 1-By the Benalla, which sailed from here in Oct ober. 1914. W e called at Albany, Aden , and Colombo, but the men were not allowed ashore at the two lasd:·-named ports. At Albany they were disembarked fo·r route marching. · _

511 . Was there .any trouble. there ,owing to alcohol? -Yes. We lost a f ew men, and subsequently found them the worse for drink. There was no trouble in the with the meri I was .;,ith, but I believe trouble­

was caused by some men on the transport. 512. W.as any p unishment inflicte,d on th0.$e men before they left Albany?-I think seven men were sent back to Melbourne. One was a man who had served in the Boer war, and had proved · hin1self l very good soldier in that campaign . .

513. Was there much drinking on bo ard the trans­ port ?-A good deal. The :firemen and the ship's crew seemed to supply the men with liquor. On two occa­ sions a search was made to discoveF the source supply.

The -men received an issue of beer every morning. 514. Did the men of the First Division draw much pay on the voy;age between Australia and I

think there were two pays, but the amomit was limited to aoout 'ls. per day. . . .

515. Do you remember what orders were · iv

reg,ard to p ay immfldiately after the landing in Egypt ? -I believe tha-t no man was to be allowed to draw more than 2s. per day. -516. Do you remember making up the pay-slieets a day or so after -landing, and drawing a considerable amount of money, representing the pay oLthe men on the voyage, which was issued in Egyptian coin?-Yes.

. 517. As a of tact, was not lthe :first pay in

Egypt pretty heavy, and did not the men have plenty of money in their pockets?- Yes. 518. ·what were the -conditions in 1;egard to leave?­ At first, only a small number of- men were .allowed on leave, and then - there was some .agitation, which re­

sulted in 20 per cent. of the camp -being allowed leave each night. I estimate that 2,000 men, witli and without leave, would be travelling from M ena Camp to , Cairo every ni:ght. At m st, the hours of leave 'vere -from 5.30

to 9.30, but later the hour of return was extenQ_ed ,o l1 .o'-clock. from Men.a to Cairo is a distance of about 8 miles, which had to travel!ed by trams or gharries. I think the time occupied in traveHing would be about an hour each way. . -

- 519. So that the men would not get into before

6 •

520. Do you know if the gardens, 8Jld such

places of entertainment were closed by 6 o'clock?- I think they were closed before that hour. 521. W ere yo u on duty at any time in Oairo ·with the city guard ?--I was on duty with the city guard on one occasion for a week. I had with me four officer s and 120 men. The only men ;hom we locked up we re those whom we found drunk after hours. During 'that week

we averaged over ·50 arrests of Aintralians, New Zea­ lande,rs, and .Territorials each

522. In the course- of your duty you visited all the bazaars and _ other peculia1'" places of the city?-We vi sited both the· good places and the bad places. 523. Did you find t he troopR frequenting the bad spots?-The o.nly men_:we found in the W azzi, or low native quarter, were those who were drunk . .

524. As the result of your experience while in charge of that guard for a week, what opinion did you form in regard to allowing troops to get liquor and visit the low quarters of th e Would there not be a tendency t o

crime and ti? acquiring venereal disease ?-Our doctor used to say that most of the venereal disease from which the men suffered was taken with them from Austl'alia. The majority of th e . men in th e First Division were · ver y te1p.perate.

525 . But a man could not be accepted as fit for mili­ t ary ser vice if he were suffering from venereal disease? - - H e might contract disease- after enlistment. Very few of the men in my company h ad venereal disease.

526. W ere the conditions in Cairo good or bad for troops?-Very bad, particula rly ,(IS regards the facilities for ootainiiig alcohol. 527. Did· those conditions affect officers as- well as men?-Yes.

528 . Were ther e any offi cers who, after -being trained at considerable cost and being I!aid high salaries, were unfit, by reason of over-indulgence in alcohol, to render the service the country was entitled to expect from 'them3- I would not say there many , but there

v;ere some. 529 . Did you .no tice 1nuch drinking amongst Austra­ lian troops in G r eat Britain while you were there1-I was in hospital all the time I was in England. I did

not visit any Australian camps, hut the general opinion was that the .Australians in England wefe very steady. 53 0. During the time you were i.n charge ef Bendigo an d Royal Park ca_ mp.s, did you notice any effort t o introduce- liquor intu the camps?- The military police freguently arrested men who were carrying liquor into ·

camp with them. We found one civilian with nine

flasks of whisky and some beer in his pockets, and we ha:nded him over to the civilian police. · Soldiers enter­ ing camp were searched if they were th e worse for

liquor, _ but -there were so many entrances to each of those camps that, if men were bl:ingl.ng liquor in, they would take care not to go past the guard; _ 53,t. Did you ever discover any liquor amongst the men in...the lines ?- We fo und many empty bottles. They were gathered every morning and handed over to the which sold them f,or the benefit of the· oanteen

funds._ A At Bendigo, .the recej.pts from this source u sed to- average_6s. or Ss. per week. 532. At embarkation- time, was there much difficulty in getting m en from leave ?- There were always

some men absent at -the time of embarkation. Half of such absences would be due to. drink, and the other half would represent men who did not desire t o go to the Front. , ,

533. Do you notice tllat much drinking- takes place amongst the troops in Melbourne?-I should say that there is not more drinking now than there >vas in 1914. At that time there were more troops in camp than are th ere now, and, therefore, it is hard to make a compari­ son.

534. Do you not" think that the of troops, in

training is rdfec ted .by the prese+1ce of a drinking . to excess and se_ tting up a bad exampl.e of independence and disregard of authority IS n o

doubt about that. 535. In of your experience during the last few

years, and h aving regard to the work to be done in con­ nexion with repatr:Uation, do you think the peo ple wo uld be wi:se in deciding on total prohibition during the

perioa of the war?-If the question were put t o thfl popular vote, I should vote for prohibition. 536. From wh at you know of the ways and means by which soldiers get liquor, the only method of dealing with the trouble effecti v_ ely is to stop it a t the source of su pply?-Yes. , -

537. By Sena tor· Grant.-You are aware that a very la rge 1 am ount' of money is invested·· in the liqu or traffic, particularly in breweries and hotels?- Yes.

538. Are you aware that house properties produce a highe-r rent when ·used for hotel purposes than they would if used for_ any other purpose, , and that conse­ quently any prohibition brought about by a popular

vote -would mean a .subsbantial loss to the owners of hotels ?-Some would lqse, anci some would not. 539. Prohibition would also mean the, discharge of barmaids and bar men and all employees connected with

_ -

540. And very big :financial losses would be caused to [lhareholders in breweries and aU those persons hav­ ing interests in the liquor trade ?-Yes. 541. That being so, would you be in favour of com ­ p--onsating barmaid s and barmen for the loss of their positions, ancl licencees, hoter proprietors, and brewery shareholders for their los11e8 ?-No doubt those entitled

to compensation should get it, but I do not think that a barman who loses his j ob is any worse off than a

wh o, afte,r havi ng fought for four or five· years,

iil put 0ut of employment. 542. Who, th en, should get the compensation ?-If the property owner suffen. a great loss, no doubt he is en­ titled -to some compensation, and no doubt a case _ can be made ou t for the compensation of a hotelkeeper who deprive d of a, living. -

543. Should not the barmen and barmaids. s·hare in the compensation , ha.ving regard to tht> fact that they have been in t.he,ir oa.cupations all their lives, and would be· very much handicapped if required to find

othe,r e mployment 1-I do not think- so. The'y are no more' incap acitated than the soldier Wlho returnll from th'e war with a ruined constitution. .

' 544. Should the brewers ge t I ...- do

no t feel competent to answer "thebe questions . -545. But, broadly speaking, you are in favour of compen sation ?-All I say is that those who deserve ' evmpE:nBation should get it ..

546. Is it not a fact that, a considerable number of melJ who left Australia with the, First Division were re.turnE:d because of being physilcally incapable of pro-cet:ding t o the Y e8 . . · ·

54 7 . H ave you any idea of how many men we.re re­ t.mned out of th e :first 20,000 who left these shores?­

548. Oan you sa,y what percentage of these cases was due to the moderate or excessive use of liquor can

only say from my company of 119 officer!! and men we sent bruck two men from Albany and one from Mena. The last-mentioned was a man who ha.d served well in the Boe·r \Var, and had personal references from the

Marqu;s. of /Tullahardine. H e was a smart soldier, but if there was any liquor about he could not leave it

aione, ;1nd he would not go to the Front because there no liq uor there,. The two men sent back from

Albury because they were drunkards.

549. Would you favour the prohil;Jition of the shout­ ing hahit!-No doubt shou ting greatly increases dr"ink­ ing, _but I would be in favour o.f preventing the oppor-tunity t o shout,. -

550. Do you know of any men in the First Divisio11 who returned from Egypt for any cause other than the excessive use. o.f alcohol 7-I know that men were re­ turned becaur•e of venereal disease, and for crim eJ> such as thieving. I cannot say wh at was their number.

55 1. During the Boer War did t he soldiers drink heed-Yes.

,

552. Had thos-e l!len who:were returned Egypt_ abandoned beer fo r spirits \can not say _t hat. I

think mo-re· harm is done by drinking spirits than by drinking beer. A spirit drinker c< eems to go down quickei' than t he beer drinker.

SALE OF INTOXICAN TS COMMITTEE.

WEDNESD AY, 6TH 1918.

Present:

553 . By Senator B 'ltzacott.-Do you think that if there were a we t c-antee·n in the camp, it would prevent men going to the towns and cit;es to get a glass -of

beer ?-It might, but a man is on ly allowed a limited quantity of drink at a properly con duct ed military canteen.

Senator TI{Ol\u s, m the chair ;

Senator Lieut:-Col. Bolto u, I _S enator GratLt, Senator Buzacott, _ Senator Co lonel R owe ll.

Senator Foll, Captain Charles Rich ard W ynn Brewis, R. N., :Naval Transport Officer, M elbourne; and examined. 554. Would not that quantity sat isfy . the majority of men who have br.en use d t o taking drink for a num­ ber of yearsJ-No. Many men dri1iJ, to excess, n ot beca.use th ey l ike it, b ut becamn they a;-e in convivial company, and thGy are determined to keep going until

t heir mo ney is gone. The value o-r oth e•rwise of a wet cante•en is a subjed upon which I have• not yet arrived

566. By the Chairman.-Your duties are connected with t h e embarkation of troops ?-I am in entire ch arge of all troopships; piers, and wharfs from which t roops embark-in fact, all happenings below high-water m ark in connexion with troopships. I have been in charge of that work since the w.ar star ted, with th e exception of the three months, from the 22nd D ecember, 1914, to th e lOth l\farch, 1915, when I was at sea in ch arge of the 2nd Austr alian convoy. Prior to ·that date a very

large number of troops had been sent from Aj.lstralia.

· at a. definite opinion . No doubt a wet canteen wo uld be a good institution if it were no t for the 1 per cent.

or 2 per rent. o.f men who wi ll t ake too much liquor,

and wlw will get too much by auy means and eve·r:v means, even if .t hey have to buy it through their com-. 567. What is your opinion as to the general co ndi­ tion of the men who have left these shores at the t ime

of embarkation ?-In the early days of t he. war, when there were no restrictions on th e licensed houses, I noticed on several occasions officer s, as well as men, em­ barking in a state o! intoxication. I have also seen

the whole crews of a transport excepting t he ship's officers absolutely incapacitated through drink. E x­ cessive drinking is, in my opinion, the one and only disability connes ted with the troopship service. _

rades. · ' ;,

555. Did you notice any ev il eff ects of the wet eRn ­ teen in E gypt 556. Can you say whether it had t h e· effe ct of keep­ ing men in_ camp instead of their gning to Cairo d o· not t hink jt had that '3ffect. .

557. You spoke of men taking t oo much drink a t. Alba ny. If th ere had been a tantee-n under military control, and the h ote.lc in the town had b e·en closed during th-e stay of t h e transport in port, do you think

there would have been any trouble 1-I do not think t.he wet canteen wou ld have kept the· men away fro-m the town. ·

558. Are you in f avour of the closing of hotels while tr an sports are; in Yes. · ·

559. You r ealize that that. wo uld mean a. tremendou s loss to the t rade ?-Possibly it would, but th e publi­ cans r,.,y that they take just as much money with 6

o'clock cl osing as whe-n they k ept their bars open till 11 o'clock . 560. By S enatm· Colonel Rowell.- In the South

African campaign, ther e was no drinking in the -Very Fttle.- But the men who . ioini}d the South AfriJcan contingents were a di'fferent ·'class of men from many of those. who are in t he Australian Army to-day. They -we1'e men who had be.longed to the Volunteer F " orces, and were nearly all of mature yea.r s and pos­ res.se d of some me•ans. ·

561. You have been in camps which h ad wet can-teens 7-Yes. \

562. Did you nOt find that the me n were not so

anxio us t o get away on leave when the.y h ad an oppor­ tun;ty of getting drink in camp those days not

much leave was giv en. The men did not bother about. leav-e. I think discipline was better then than it is

now. To-day everyb0:dy wants to go on leave·, and the desire c•eems t o extend El'Ven to the Commanding Officer . We call this di sease " lea vi tis."

, .

568. WJlat are the restrictions to which you refer ?­ The closing of licensed houses at the port of Melbourne certain lwurs and the 6 o'clo ck closing of all

licensed houses throughout Victoria. 569. When a troopship leaves, all hotels in port must be closed ?-Yes, they close at 6 o'"clock on the previous evening, and are n0t opened u:p.til the troopship leaves the wharf on the following day, . which is usually be­ twee n 11 o'clock and noon. Since those restrictions have been in force 1 have noticed a considerable im-. provement. \..

570. Do I understand that even -n ow thBl'e is a cer tain amount of drinking, to the extent of ,interfering with the discipline of the troops ?-General Sellheim asked for the opiniog of the principal officers of the Depart­ ment of Defence on this subject, and the correspondence

was m!nuted on to me by Colonel Hawker, who asked for my opinion as to the causes of troopships leaving without full compleme1i'ts . I replied on the 11th

December , 1917- ·

I have to ir1form you t1Jat excessive drinking whilst in port, especially immedia t ely prior to proceeding "to sea, is the one, and practically only, detriment to a n efficient trooping se rvice . This applies to the crews of vessels employed as troopships and hDspital ships. I have witnessed the most regrettable incidents amongst military officers a!)d men for active .se rvice returning to their tra nsport in a state of intoxication after having la nded for a few hours in Melbourne. '

I . . . -

Returned men, who are passmg through Port JYielbourne on their way to other States, are allowed ashore f or a f ew hours. They go to Melbourne, and they return to their t ransport in a state which I can only describe as

563. I suppo•se a good deal of the difficulty has beeD brought about by t he, appointment of a large number of officers who have had no experience in men doubt a. number of men received- commis­

sions who were not entitled to them , but I d1ould not like to say what I t hink is the cause of any lack of dis­ cipline that exists to-day.

. pitiable.

· 564. By the you in charge of a

camp in Victoria before 6 o'clock closing came into , operation 7-Ye&. 565. Do you think that 6 o'clock closing h as mini­ m ized . drunkenness amongst soldiers?-I think it has,

but the inen get liquor just the same.

The ,Committee adj011Jt"ned.

571-. What arc tEe conditions in connexion with transports which a rc 1 ·aking troops to - the Front?­ Troopships taking men to the Front have qeen prac­ tically immune from th e drinking evil since t he i·estric­ tions have been in force. I have prosecuted persons for bringing liquor on to the wharfs, and there_ is also a very excellent permanent guard of retur-ned men. I cannot pay too high a tribute to the guard. Those men are t4e best I have ever seen at that duty.

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572. Do you know-of any men having absented them­ selves from ships !lt the time of their embarkation?-­ I cannot say that I know of a single case which I can reasonably attribute to drink. In most cases women are

the cause of men missing t.lieir boat. Men have come to ·the wharf too late to catch their ship, and in some cases they have had with then! a cab load of women of a certain class.

573 . When a man mis::;es his boat in those circum­ stances, i t do es not appear as if he wished to desert ?­ No. Men who deserted wo uld not come within my knowledge at all. They would be outside my authority

and observation. Through official co rrespon denc·.e, i am aware of a , large number of men having deserted, but I have no per sonal knowledge on the subject. 574. I take-it th at when a brings back in­

valided soldier s, the men are all sober when they land? - Always. 575. That because there is no opportunity for them to get drink on· t,h e voy age ?--The supply of drink to men ou the Yoyage h as been stopped. P1·ior to th at re­ striction I kn ew of one officer who early in the morning

was not sobci' . The Minister for Defence, about two years ago, order ed total prohibition on all transports in regarcL to both offic ers and men. I r ecollect two cases of drunkenuess on a return i11 g transport- one was a

medica'l co lonel and the other a clergyman. 576. In the early stages of the war, a bar was con­ duc ted on transports ?-Yes; but there h a v,e been no bars on transi)orts for the last two year s. That r egula­

tion has been most• drastically enforced, and, in my opinion, it. has been advantageQUS. 57 7. When a transport enters port are the officers allowed to disembark immediately?- N o; all on board,

from a gen eral down to a private, are granted the same privileges .·- A ship passing through . Port Melbourne wo uld carry on the Queem;land an d New South Wales units. Directly th e men for Tasmania, South Aus-

tralia, and Victoria h ave been landed, officers and men fo r the other States are given leave while- the vessel takes in coal. Leave would commence abo.ut 1 o'clock; and last till 4 o'clock in .the afternoon. During those'

th1'ee hours the men are able to come to Melbourne, wher e the ho tels are open. 578. Can you say fron1 your own personal observa· tion that men have r eturned to their transport the worse for liquor?-That happens every time a returning

tran)lpor t is in port. ,The drunkenness is not con-fined to the men; the officers are equally as bad. I think th e of liquor on the men is' accentuated if the:y

have suffei·ed from shell shot;k Ol' other nerve troubles. No man who has suffered fi·om shell shock should touch alcohol, because the smallest quantity of into»icating liquor, combined with the excitement of landing in Aus­

tralia, makes him quite silly . . 579. I n view of that fact, what would you suggest ?­ ! _ have been told by masters of troopships that in the United Kijlgdom a maa who has suffered from sho ck is required to wear an armlet, and any pubhcaJI

ser ving a rnan thu s deno ted, or any man who neglects to J1is armlet, is liable to punishment. 5.SO. It is no part of your official duty to find employ· men.t fOJ ' men who r eturn ?-No; but I am frequen.tly appealed to.

58 1. H ave yo u been able to :find employment for a number of returned men ?-For very few. In one case I found private employment for a mo tor-driver. I have no t ,been able to find any employment for men in my own Department, w!;tich is entirely a Naval Department.

So far no naval rati·ngs have returned. If I know of any employment being available I invariably gi ve pre­ ference to a returned soldier,

582 . H ave you known :of any cases in which the drink­ ing habit has interfered with the employment of r e­ turned men ?:'_I have never even heard that suggested. 583 . By Senato1· Grant .- Would you be in favour of

the total prohibition of the sale of intoxicating liquors to so ldiers ?-Only while troopships carrying . a large number of invalids are in port. I would stron'gly advo­ cate that at such times all licensed houses and places ,.;here intoxicants can be purchased, within a r adius of

20 miles of the General Post Office, should be closed. 584. Are yo u in favour of a wet canteen being con­ ducted on board the troopships which are taking so ldiers to the Front ?-On no consideration wo uld I advocate

the establishment of a wet canteen on board the troop­ ships. These canteens were started in the Navy when I was a- senior officer, and they were tried on the reserve ships, but even with the greatest possible supervision

the cante-en-s we r'e abused, and they had to be discon­ tinued within' a very short t ime. 585. Ar e you opposed to the issue of a rum ration to soldiers on duty ?- I believe in the rum ration. I have

never known it to be abused. · 58 6. rt is issued nnder very strict supervision ration is drunk in the presence of an officer, and is diluted wiili three parts of water to one of rum.

- 587. no you know if that ration is generally issued before, during, or after an engagement ?-I have no ex­ perience of the trenches . I am speaking of the rum ration in the Navy. That takes place · immediately after a meal. I have also known special issues t o be given on sailing ships in very inclement 'weather, when we could not light a fir e, and provide the men with co coa or other hot beverages. In such circumstances I believe

the rum ratio)l is benefi cial. 588 . Can yo u -give the Committee any information as . · to the average age of the men who embarked during the earlier stages of the war, as compared with the ages of­

the men who -have been embarking since the early clo sing· of hotels throughout the State, and the total closing of the hotels in po r t during embarkation hours ?-In the early stages of the war· the men who embarked appeared tO' me to be between the ages of nineteen and sixty years;

but within recent months I should say that nearly all the men who have gone aw ay have been within a few year s on either side of twenty-two. 58 9. Are yo u aware that young Australians are re­ putedly very so ber as comp ared with Australians of­ over forty years of age, and, if that is so, wo uld not the greater sobi'iety among the men embarking be due

rather to their youth thari to the restrictions yo u h ave mentioned ?-Youth is prob ably a very strong factor in the that h as taken place. The youths of

Austr ali a are very abstemious compared with the young fellows of other co untries . 59 0. Would you be in favour of legislation to prohibit the sale or manufacture of in toxicating liquors ?-Qer­ tainly not, .but I ·wou ld be in favour of an anti-shouting law. _ I r egard shouting as a most per nicious habit, and as one of the chief causes of trouble.

59 1. You would prohibit shouting on the par t of civilians., because of the effect the habit might have upon our, so ldiers ?-Fr om my own observation, shouting is the principal cau se of the drink trouble, and I wo uld

make it a penal offence. I do not think that any man other than a confirmed drunkard would sit down by himself and get drunk. 592. W ould not an anti-shouting law so reduce the quantity of drink so ld as to greatly reduce the incomes ·of breweries and the dividends of brewery shar eholders?

-Yes. 593. vVould you be in favour of compensating share­ holders for such interference with their industry?­ That is a problem which is quite outside my -experience

/

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46

or training as a naval officer. My pers9nal opinion is very careful _ .to make known anything that does nOt entirely opposed to compensation. / mee t with their 1 ap:proval, I think · any cause of com-

594. By Lieut.-Colonel Bolton.-You are familiar - plaint would .have come to my hearing. with details in gonnexion with the provisioning of.- - 607. -_ Vlill you explain to Oo.mmittee the no-rmal transports and the embarkation of troops?-Yes. procedure when a ·_ comes into port ·to take

595. When ·a troopship leaves, the ship and men to the Front t'he .sh]p is loaded, an advance

the offi cer ,commanding troops are placed in possession party· is placed on board. is .. a lnilitary embarka­ of a schedule showing the scale of rations for the_ men tion ·officer and his-,sta:ff, ·iand there -are .also the offi.ceT and officers and the victualling ratQ§ per day paid to the commanding troops, adjutant, and .a quarterm·a£te1 r. ship's company?--Yes. , The ;Sihip-ovvner to see that the mess-,decks are all

/ 596. Since the commencement of the war there has ·properly scrubbed out, ana :t:he advance party erects the heen S'Ome amendment in .the victualling T.ates ?-They hamimocks and /issues _ the utensils to the meS'ses . The have been increased ·OWing to the :rise in the ;price. of milita•ry embarkation , offi-cer -allots the·· cabins to the oommodities. I be-lieve the :rations hl!..ve been inc_!'eased- on 1cers a-ccording to · seniority, a.ll the naval require­ also, but of that I have DJO personal experience. 1 The ments ·having first been tset a-s i·de. All t:he beds in the -feeding ·of the troops ,on the ship I t·ook to Egypt wars ho·spital mu.st :be made ready' for inspection, ,and the

- ve ssel is inspected, in order to see :that there is .a .proper

. 597. Frrom a- per.usal-of t'he S·chedule, you would pr·op-ortion, -according to the regulations, ,of lavatories sume that dietary sca1e was excellent?-Yes. -T1ie and beds ,pe1 r 100 men, tg1at the itsohtion ward

facilities for exercise work on ·board s,hip aTe limite d, is clean, and that the w;hole rship i,s thor,oughly clean the :men :practically waiting from one meal t_o. the and ready foT the trO:Qi£:_S to ,oome a"ho.ai,d. .AJs soon as next, and they eat rather ·:more under . those conditwns the mar.ch on, tb.ey are told off · to their- ·messes, than when they aTe working ·hard. which scale 18 inches to each man. After

598.· Does the ·scale of rations !provide fO'r liquor of thig is d one, _the men sit to attention, and a

ariy sort?-None whatever. . · board, eonsi.sting of the Naval Transport Officer,

599. Did it not set out the ·rates t o 1 be chwrged for· the senior a\).d the military

ho.ttles of beed-The original regulations provided fo,r tion officer, inspects < the ves,sel, to see that there is suffi­ the sale of beer. ' _ , _- cien t acCiomtmod-ation for every man on hoard. This

600. Ship-owners were allowed to ,carry liquor to ibe operation i s cauied out ,a,s quickly as then ,

• SUipplied t o officers and men under regulations ?-They uhe men aHo.wed on deck, the pier IS thrown were up till about two years ago. op_en to the pubhc fo'r a :few m1n:ut;·s bef.oTe the vessel.

601. Do .not ship-owners ca,r.Ty liquo'l' for ·their own sarls. . In the early_ ·of the war the '?meers used us·e?-The have to ·carry the usual ·,st•ocks, for, t.o off to therr ca?ms to unpack

before the yshipping was requisitioned by the Imperial , now ever;r ?.ffi?e':r must. keep hl s

authorities, transports returning the United umt. The dlsmph.ne rupphes to them as to

dom ·on several ·occa·sions were no_ t ..... required for Aus:- :nen, and 11'0 diff·erence Is made _ them, excep ,, tralian troops, and Imperial troops were on Itn to 9ltass o£2 d Qn a e -I

board for transport to South Africa. Tho·se ,shjps then l'anspor. carrymg, say, , , _:men, e a· .vance, par.y under the Imperial regulations, which the consrst ,of 300 men, and have 24

usual mail steamer 'facilities for ohtainin.g liquors, ::;o to the other troops embarking. They f ' IX! d -d lso the' conduct 'of a t he troop officer ana the purse.r all the utensrls for the ar as 01ucers are concerne an a , . _ . . ·. . . t t f, - ,, . k . ' messes , and arrange for their .drstnbutron. we een or iLner tan s. - 1' d · ·

· . • • . • • r 608. 'these n:en usua ly ha an,t previOus e!Jpen-

602· The;r the trool.pships do hquor. In eveiJ ence -of this _ work ?.....;....Some haye, and othe'l',s _ ha:ve p.ot, -case t·here lS a quantity In the store-rooms under locJ\: hut there is nothing very complicated in it. . .._ key. . . _ . . _Q09. Would you be surprised t-o lemJI tlhat

603 .. Do you remembe;r 'any of troops uom a issue o.:( utensiJs; &c.-, having; been chried ·ou.tJ>y transport f0'Dmng the . store-ropm experienced· n011-0om:rnis:si·oned ,offi.oer1 s and-.m:en, withi n

and b,Alpmg themselves to the hquor · I recpllect_ ·the :first 24 h_ ours at •sea, 25 ·per .cent. of_.the !blankets a ,but I am. to :State tne oecaSIOn ana hammocks were- missing?-That ,might have ber:n

or the name of the ship. accou-nted for by I hav.e been frequently

604. Of ·course, the logical effect of- suc'h pr,oc-edure told tlhat'IDen who have. soiled a :blranket or-a toweLha-ve would be t·o interfere with discipline good order on simply thr,own it overbowrd r·ather than troulble t'O wa·sh bo:trd ?-The results wQuld rbe very ·serious. the article.

605. When troopship'?s are leaving Australita you are '. 610. It would be irregular foT an embwrkation officer 13peciaJly ·concerned wit:li the arrrangement ·Oi the troops· to si,gn f·or the re·ceipt fr.om the ,ship's offioer of ·a num­ in m:esses ?-I am responsible for seeing that they h,aye ' her ·of ,artides he had not really ?---lif •orie takes a all •been properly. ,put into the ship b;y the military offi- laTge volume of coin to the tbank, _ ijhat ,coin must be cers, and t.hat the regulations are 'being .strictly adher-ed ehecked ·by -we]g.ht, similarly an- emJbarrkati·on officer

to. I .am al·s,o responsiible fo:r ,geeing that the cooking must accept an unopened 1bundle as containing the num-- utensils which the regulrations req11ire the her of article;; ,it is supposed to contain. H e -could

to tprovide ar·e pr:operly issued. , · s·car·cely a:fiord the Jime to eount eve:ry 1 aTticle. I recol-

' 606. Has there considerable ·confusion at Port 1-ect that the steward- and the third o:fficer on the BaZ­ }Ie1bourne at times in conm"ixion wivh t he i ssue of these larat weTe convicted 10f .selling blankets. uten-sil·s, owing- to the inexpe:riep.·ce of those ,oo ncerned 6i1. You would not as-cribe ra shortage of utensils t o on tw:o or three oceasions have the sergeants tJhe advance party 'being the in flu el).'Ce of liquor?­

provided with earthenware cups and plates instead N·ot in co nexion with any tra.nsport th1at touc·hed these

of glass, tumbler:sJ china ·OUps, 'and china :plates. But shores within recent months. I lrecolle"Ctthe Port Mac­ on each occrasion.. ... the error -was ' rectliied a•s so,on as it qttarie taking a way ;the Naval Bridging Tr·ain. None was discovered, the ship-')wner · pleading that the of the c-rew were sorber,. a:nd .so many ·of the Bridging crockery Tequired UD:de:r the r,egulations wa.s not o.btain- Train were dT1mk i!hat it was difficult to a•scertain who a1ble. I have not known ,of 'an-y difficulty owing to the were ,sO'ber , 'and who· were not. Sthe was towed away insufficiency of lltensils, . ·and a·s tro•ops are always 1'rom the wharf, and lay at anchor till 7 o' do·ck next

.morning, when 'Ye went on to inspect .. I tol

the that the whole of h1s ' exceptmg whe.n Inen are si ck ·?-:My experience is you can lead

-ship's officers were on the prevwus day, and he the _A .. ustraiian a silken thread, bl}-t you cannot

replied that that was no-t so, tbat·.a.fter the vessel had drive ..him; and any man who attempts to drive Aus­ left .the wharf he found th(:l.t two of his were quite t'ralians, except_ with gentle firmness, will not get any sober. 1 work out of them. .,.

612. The duties in the messes are carried out under • 622. Was there any liquor on board transports-about -the men's ·own officeTs Tlhe detailing ·Of men June, 1916 ?-Speaking from memory, rshould say that for duties on 1 bowrd is entirely -a matter of organization ' total ordered by the Minister about

on the part ·of the officer commandi11g troops, if he twelve months after the commencemen-t. 'Of the war, or, is a good officer you get a well-conducted 'Shlp. ' , say, about September, 1915, but I beheve ,that unless - 613. There i.s every possi1bi1ity o·f tJhe maintenance of , the' officer commanding tr9ops and the master of the good .order ·and at the. of troops, . vessel show .consider:able strength of character liquor

bec'ause they are 1n ·unrts, .and .are or.gan1zed, and under would be eas1ly ·obtamable. command '1-Yes, and everything is carried out at Mel- 623. In your opinion a ·troopship returning. with ii!­ bourne with . the most drastic rigidity, and witho·Ut valids would be at a distinct disadv:l:mtage as regards the sentiment or f.avo,ritism. . . of messes and O'l"derlies in comparison with

614. What e·onditim11s do you find ·On ·Shi:ps r-eturnm.g a ship leaving these with troops for the Front?­ with troops fro,m the Fr,ont ?-Tlhat· entirely U ndouhtedly. It is more difficult to organize on board on the officer commanding troops. One of the dirtiest a returning transport, but is one advantage in

cl ass. of ship that has eve! eo:rrie iJ;lto port returtted from .... the fact that the men -whd are returning have had more the F'ront, and Colonel Mailer, formerly the Royal tiaining and some of them 'have been on board ship Horse Ar .. tillery, was the. officer commandu1g troops. s·everal times · and -for a considerable_ period. All -the men on:. hoard ·were invalids, but when the. 624. :Have ever .had any e_vidence of the illicit sale vessel came into port all the aQ_coutrements w,:ere of liquor by member's of the transport crews ?-I have polished up, - and all parts -of the vessel - were attempted on several occasions to investigate allegations spick and span. The vessel was i;n the most of the kind, but have been unable to obtain any evidence.

condition of any I have· ever seen, yet Colonel Mailer- 8 Men 1vill -about these things, but nobody will put sigl}t was .,.-so badly affected that he co"?-ld n?t read his statements· in writing. the menu at .table. When the vessel arl'lved m 625. By ·Senator Buzacott.-In speaking of the dis­

bourne, she . had 900 men em boa.rd, but I do not location of transport arrangements through intoxication, that the good ·orde}' and would have ibeen were you referring to the crews or to the soldiers ?-To

less if the number of_ me1i had been greater. I do both.

say that other ships .not returned _in 1 gx)od condl- 626. Generally speaking, do you· :find that c:ews "' tii011 , hut ·I 1nention one case; comes .pro- indulge in int-oxicants more freely than do the sold1ers ?

minently to- mind. . . . . . .· -Yes,- particularly-the firemen. . , .

615. Troo.ps would be taken on ibOaifld 'a"t Alexand:la 627. Do you think that Instead of -clo smg a1l pubhc or London unde:r ·con_ ditions differing 'from which houses within a radiu:s of twenty miles of the General obtain when n1.en en:l'ba.rked in. Post Office while a transport is in port the trouble could

as t.hos e men would not he 'OTgamzed :nito U.mts bef-ore... be overcome. by imposing a heavy penalty on men they went aaoard ?-The;y go as a .crowd, sold intoxicants to soldiers .uniform, apd by est abhsh-

but I have 1been told 'that the d1se1plme wrth whl.ch the ing a canteen under m1htary control at Port lVf el­ men embwrk - is magn-ificent, and tlhat . . 1B any bourne, at only soldiers could be with

falling ·off in discipline on the VIOJa:ge 1t 1s due to drink ?-No. There are .. not here, as there are 111 the shckn·ess -·or ineX'perience of the o:ffic·eT )commandmg -Imperial service, strict lines of class demarcat ion. A tro·o:p:s a·nd_,the ·othe:: ·officeTs ·On ho:ard. . , . . . great" many Of the men in t.he ranks have more money 616. If a trO.O!pShlp wer(;7 return1ng w1th 6?0 mvahd than the officers, and the dnnk trouble often extends to the first thip_ g the .officer troo·ps the largest_ and most aristocratic hotels in . ..

would do would he _ to orgamze tlhe men mto messes?- 62 fi. Suppose hat none of the hotels were A list of the m ess-es would be given t·o hrm, and he would" to supply liquor to men in uniform, but the sold1 ers f.!.CCordingly_. · - . . could get a drink at their own canteen ?-They would

617. The .. men taken on board would be ?7I not go to the canteen. By -some means or they

believe that the men make as much of thell' Illness _ as would get drink elsewhere. Complete clo smg of possible, but the strictest officers parade before the hotels would be the only way to prevent the men gettmg medical-officer, who recommends to whether are liquor. / · ...

fit fo-r light duties or not. Sometu;n.es the men disp-qte - 629. Are you opposed to total proh1b1tlon ?__i_Yes. I the medical officer:s opinion. I ?eheve that one . 630. you favour the closing of hotels a

adopted the practiCe of remandmg the men for couij radius of 20 miles of the Gener al P ost Office wh1le the I martial . on arrival in ¥elbol"';rne. c.onsequence 0

transp'orts are por.t you ee fav.our of total

that att1tude, the men 1mmed1ately apphed thembelvds prohibition durmg the. penod o1' demob1hzat10n after the to duty, and worked harder than anybody else on oar · wa r believe that total pr()hibition of shoutiil.g would When. the yessel a..,rrived the officer overcome 'part of the I . have ah:ead.y said

mandmg troops had no occas10n to take any iurthe that, in .my opinion; a man w1ll not get drunk 1n h1s own steps. . . · - . _ . home ·or by buying liquor himself in. an hotel. The-

61 8. InvaJ1d sold1ers .. have_ to provide mess evil of the drink traffic arises out of the custo m of men from amQngst ?-Yes. They have to do t. collecting in public houses ai1d shouting for each other.

same. troops to th.e N ° _specla 631. You would no t be in favour of any legislation

staff 1s prov1ded for waitmg on mef f . d f, . the which would place the soldier on a difficult footing from

619. In rough_ weather the ca_Erymg 0 0 .0 b -1 y the civilian ?-Certainly not. Such a differentiation - kitchen to the messes would be a strenuous JO ·--:-f· les. k would be quite improper and unfair. I· 't -t quj.._ e no ssible for a good deal o sac T_ .!) • 8 . 1 no J: f · _ unt of sickness 632. By S enator Colonel Rowell.-Has there not been ness anse thro;g\1 mJn/e offi- a vast improvement in the condition in which meT : have to carry orl er Y · · us been- brought from the camps to the· transports m the cers that }' cu ty wou _ e ser10 .

last two or three years?-The improvement has been extraordinary. The conditions have alter t)d beyond recognition. Nowadays men come to the port · under perfect discipline, and it is diffic ult to believe that they have been, in military training for on ly a brief time.

633. Do you know if leave is stopped f or two or three days preceding the day of embarkation ?-I believe it is. I am sure that the fact of men being allowed leave on the night preceding embarkation accounted for much

of the trouble that was seen at the wharfs. - 634. Do you think that if a wet canteen were estab­ lished in camp there would be as big a clamour for leave as there is at pre_ sent?-If proper supervision can be assured a wet canteen is an excellent thing. I base my remarks on my knowledge of_ the Naval Barracks at Onatham, Portsmouth, and Devonport.

635 . British transports have wet canteens ?-Yes, but the British Tommy is not so affluent as his Australian comrade. 636. Many of the British conscripts have plenty of

money?-Yes, but those are men taken frolll a higher social class than the average· Tommy, and you could not. make drunkards of them.

637. Uan you make an y suggestioil as to the best means of reducing the drink trouble in connexion with_ trans­ por.ts bringing Teturned soldiers into por t ?-In answer to a r equest from the commandant, B rigadier-Ge-neral

Williams, for my opinion on this subject, I wrote the following letter under date of 11th January, 1918 :-. In reply to your memo . re the closing of ho tels in the vicinity of -Port Melbourne on arrival and

departure of transports, it is imperative that this should be continued without any relaxatio11. Otherwise (1) the crews of _ships are utterly in­ capacitated at the houi· of sailing; ( 2) liquor, when obtainable at Port :Melbourne, is purchased­

by the general public who are waiting at the head of the pier, and, when the pier is opened prior to saiEng is conveyed down to the ships and passed on board. 1t is also smuggled down by the steve­ dores and other workmen on the pier. As regards ships through with invalids on bo ard re­

48 _

evening. The at:ruosphere on board sh ip during the process, of coaling will be most unpleasant, and I hope very much that you will decide to grant the troops permission to land during the _day. In view ofthis, I wo uld remark on the pitiable state in ·which on previous occasions invalids and wo u nded have rctumecl to their sh ip after a few hours recreation, clue to the hospitality they have received. The state of health of the majority is such that the smallest amount of alcohol has a most p rejudical effect Oll them. I most strongly recommend that aU hotels an d licensed houses situated within a Tadius of 15 miles from the

General Post Office be closed o1i Monday, for the unrestricted liberties of these men returning wo unded to their native country from the war, should, in my opjnion, receive the utmost con­ sideration, and not be made subservient to the convenience of hotel keepers and the general public.

641. By the Ghai1·man .- You have said that you do not advocate any di ffe r entiation between tha so l­ diei·s and civilians ?-I would treat them all the same. ·Those people who have no.t gone to the Front must ex­

pect to submit to-some of the inconveniences of the war.

642 . At the same time, you think that a per so11

suffering from shell shock should no t be supplied with liquor?-That is my opinion as a layman, and l be­ li eve that Colonel Ouscaden will support it. I would penalize such ,n;,en for their own sake.

643 . Could you extend that prohibition to a soldier who had been injured in some way other than by shell shock ?-I would apply it to all m e1i who are suirering from mental or nerve trouble.

644. Do yo u think that the men who have missed their transp orts through associating with loose women might also have been dTinking ?-My opinion is that a man who is- absobJtely sober usually keeps away fro:rp. loose women . It is probable that men who come

to the wharf in the· circumstances I have mentioned had been drinking.

turning from active service, on every occasion I 645 . Is there any other evidence which yo u can give have noticed officers and men returning to their to the Committee ?-Another installce comes to my ship, after a few hours' leave ashore in Melbourne, mind. On one occasion sever al troopships Game into in a mo st piteous state of 'intoxication. Unde1· port at once, and as many of the men were sent to their those conditions I strongly advoca{e a far greater homes in other States by train _as the ,service ' would extension of the present restriction. allow . As the train accommodation at that time was

On 6t3h8e. pDaoi' t yoofu mfi _ ennd wthhoa t n l otdedqual dto cat men' 6t Oh Oomofesthfeomi z . an e an pu m o c e varwus res · c days while the troopships wer e discharging their cargo. States on the returning transports?- Yes; and I think They were re-embarked on the morning of last Show the noticeable effects of alcohol are largely due to _the Day which. I think, was the 27th September. I went on men suffering bom shell shock and other n erve trouble. boa;d, and I walked about the ·decks. I noticed In such cases very little drink produced a marlred effect that none of the beds in the- hospital was

on the individual. · 0 made up. I wa,g .informed that •an Army Medwal or,ps

639. Yotl think the best policy- to adopt is to close Unrt ·had been sent to the vessel, but the motoT trans­ hotels when transports are passing thr ough?- I port carrying men had hroken . ·down.

thmk we should close all the ho tels that can be -of men were lymg abo ut the decks mstead of m then·

by the men within a few hours. :. cots, ·and th e,y all appear-ed to ibe in a ·state ·of exhaus-

0 • • • tion. In the first saloon ·I found six or seVJen nurses

640. you . the prQhiblt HJn ? paired off with ·as many ·other passengers. I sa id to

to the CIVIl populatiOn as well as to the sold1e1s .-:Yes. th " N b ·d . · .d : the bo sr)l.t"l Pln·ase

1' h M' · · · h · · h em, o e s are Ina e up 1n . " . v e mister gave ·an •aut• onzmg t e - 0 a t •once and see thd the berl s are made and tbe men commandant, after naval glaced in 'them." One nurse replied that they did po!t officer, to any ho tels m the por t when t1oop- no t take orders from a N•aval officer, •and then another passmg through, and 10n the 14th said, " There are no sick men on hoa rd; they are all pnor to the referen dum, I sent the followmg drunk." On furbher investigation I found that tJhe memorandum to the commandant :- whole of the men I had seen W€lre suffeTi1lg from chink, I have to inform _you that the troopship Wilt- which th ey had obtaine;d eitheT on tJhe way to the vessel shire with wou,nded · and invalids on bo ard will or .the night •befoTe. Out of the 600 men .who ·had come berth at Port Melbourne on Monday morning, al!d- aboard, a large proportion were absnlutely Htupid wi tJh will remain at the wharf during the day and until alcohol.

- I

49

646 . B y Senc&tor Grant. _:_ Why were the hotels not ·:- ·· 651. Have y()u any idea of the number of men wh o closed on' t hat hotels a re only dosed in PoQ·t have missed since the beginning of the

Me1bourne·, •an d t hese men- had come h om MeLbourne - - I calin Dt .state V he numbei·, but I ,believe it is very and Caulfield. - laTge.

647. -By S enatM Lt.-ColQnel Bolton.- Y •ou said that 652. A corresponding number of kits must n ave g-one wet canteens •on tboard v;e.ssels , f -iJhe N avy h ad to C<' to _, the Front without the d-iscon !;inue.d ?-I said th:lt even with the greatest- pos- The 'Witness withdrew.

- it found that they were abused.

64 1?... -4-nd you -advocate the clo sing -of hotels within, 20 miles of the General Post Office whi)e a t rans.port is in Yes ; •that has been tried in Adelaide. 0 :Q

one ·occasion t.h.-6- transpqrt Runic wa.s p as·sing through F renfantle. On the first .day of the vessel's stay in por -t all t)ae hotels were ·closed, and the men were given leave. _ Then it wa,s found that the vessel would

require, to r emain_in port •another day. The hotel­ keepeT s protested against any furth er closing of their doors, and the . Commandant orde·red that t he men sh01;tld 1be kept •on ·board Jtnd the hD tels allo we d. t o-

open. I have -•been tol d 'b.Y M1 ajor H o•rnabrook,

wh·o was on the t:ransport, that the men came to

him \and said, a Close the hotels. We do not ca-re about t;hem, bu t let us go ·ash{)re." ·

Albert York Hl'amwell, offilcer in charge of the E mploy-. ment Section of :the State War Council, sworn and examined. '

653. By ·the Chairman.- W1 ha t are the .functi•ollS of yoUT Department is a body working under the

direction of the Repatriation Tl·ustees, and partly under the direction of State War Council. My section

deals .strictly with the placing of returned •soldiers in employme nt, and, in the event ·of not •being a•ble to find them employlffient, recommending them fm· c-onsider a­ tion a committee in an other section for amelior-ation_

or tempor ary relief. ' ·

654. Y{)u do not deal wit·h soldiers un til they are discharged ?-No ; while they are under Governmen t contl'Ol we h ave nothing to do with them.

649. How wou1d yo u give eff ect to an ant i-shouting think it could be effectively applied. After a 655. Are there a lar ge number ·of Tetwrned soldiers

few pro15ecuti·ons the evi l would ob e grea tly minimize d. asking for employment ?- At the close 'of last \veek's ·of last year, when· a German r §J.ider was orperat- _ business there were over 700 men ·awaiting employment.

m the Atlant ic, twelve ships were •being convoyed - 656. Have you been able to find employment for by men-o' -war. All the ships were to meet at Fre- many !?en a _ very large number.

mantle, and, as usually happens, the masters discovered 657. What is the .average time for which these men they had var ious requirements which would necessitate _have been waiting for employment ?-'-It is difficult to their stay_ing longer in por t. "'n the 15th May, the state an average. A man may get employment .for a Navy Department wrote to the Department of Defence week or six m-onths. Oth ers will t ake casual work-in

as follows:- · - ' ·the 'building.tra-de, for inst ance-and that may last them

a fortnight or a month . Those men come back on

our, books. Some of the 700 have been on ilhe books for as long as a fortnight. After- a man has been on our bo oks for a clear fortnight, if the do es not ·call -again to re-register , we assume that he is in em ployment.

Drnnkenness among the crew.s of transports has caus-ed con siderwble delay in -the departure of troo p­ ships at the ·principal pm'ts A ustralia. It • is

. desired that the auth 01rity of "tb.e M inisteT fOT De­ fence be obtained for the dosing of licensed houses at the port of Fremantle during the stay in that port of of the 31st eonv·oy; in -order that

their dep aTture may be· expedited, and the •conse­ qu8llt movement of the wars·hips es9orting them may be assured. Tlhe Tecent -action of .the Min­ ister in closing licensed •at P qrt Me1bourne

during the despatch of troopships had a most 'bene-fi cial effect. ,

65 8. Then, after a for tnight, you have eith er f !'>tm cl employment fo r a man or he h as ceased to be on JOUr books?- Yes. 6-59. Do I understand that within a fortnight yo u

find employment for every one wh o comes to y-ou ?-Not necessarily. We find employment .for everybody pos­ Eible. N umbers of men apply f.or work, bu t on being questioned say they are not fit for it yet; and they

will be a constantly returning unit, corning weekly

T?e M!nister g ave CommanCl.ant, Colonel Courtney, to r egister for wo rk. If we can get light work, such a-s dlscretwlllary pow.er.s m the m!}.tter, 1 and he, instead of the position of lift attendant, some of t hese men may be g-iving •a direct oTder for the closing of tJhe 1 hotels, gave taken off our h ands, b.ut unless light wo rk is ·offering a further discretion to the police . The conseq uence was / they rnaf " continue cas ually registering on our books

that as no effective action was taken thm·e was for months. Up t o a few months ago we selec1€d

oonsidentble troul:>le, •and ·over. 100 men missed their from amongst men th ose who we re ()f a type fi t for passage. Ca:ptain Clare, District Naval O-ffice_!', in :Fre- training for ·some avocati{)n, the preparation for which mantle,. w,as asked for a report, and be 15ta.ted in one would assist in returning them to normal he,alth, but paTagMph-

Th

· ·

1

- About fo ur months ago t!hat scheme was stop ped, pend-

e prmc1pa reason why th ere •are many miss-ing men f1,0 m 1 ships at Fremantle is t hat-the mili- i11g ·tJhe r epatriation authoTi ties making defi nite ar- tary guards do not !Seem able _ to keep them 011 rangernents to continue it. They told us to :Wold up. , boar-d af t'eT having once given them leave to land further · technica l training m1til we wer e advised to when .it is Tegretted tJhe op-por tunity and continue. They have their plans fo rmulated now , -and the R epatri·ation Trustees h ave appointed an offi cer to , to i;O· take intoxicating liquor t o excess contr ol the Technical Training Section. 1s unrestncted. 66 0. A11·e you in ·some way dealip.g with all retm ned 65 0. What h appens to tJhe equipment -and .personal soldiers who require work ?- No t •by any mean s. In kit ?f a soldier wh o ·has m issed nm transpor t ?- I t i's the of time, if this technical training sch eme is raiTwd on by the ves sel, ·but -the kit is Government pro- developed in its entirety, with the ·assistan ce of the per ty. The soldier sustains no :personal loss . Some men E mployers F ederatioJt, and the pel'mission of the trade have ib een 1 hr-ought to tJhe transports in the "black unions f oT these men ·to be ·absorbed, and with the pass­maria " r-because t hey have eluded embarkation times ing of sa tisf.a ctory legislation t·hat will enable the F ac­out ·of number. There ·are •a n.umber .of men who have toTy Act to be so interpreted that these men may •be ' been quite --eontent to enlist ·and to miss embarkation. given empl oyment ·at a figure commensurate wit h their In fact, some of them went camp only on pay-days. earning p ower, we sh all g1•adually .be able to cope witlb F .l459.- 4

50

1

all the soldie·I\S who a-re ,employment. At pre--=. conditions under ·which they paily and hourly they

sent, Mr. Mu:phy, the Chief Inspector of facto·ries, has £eel that they are a nuisance to themselves and to Issue a permit t o a. slow worker unless he body else, and they are-constantly disappointed thro11g.il

lS a man who has served 1 hi s time in the t rade .to which thejr inability to -get the employment they seek. Many tlhe pel"'n:it is to apply. _ . of them would much prefer to be at work rather than

. _661. For what of the men who apply to to be -getting £1 per week from the ·w _ ar Council. My

. can you :find woTk fairly / easily ?-Under present experience over a · number of years in dealing with cucu:nstances I have place'd 162 ouj; ·of 800 applicants, soldiers and immigrants is that inact!vity is one of the 1s, ahout ·per cent. The other

80 per chief causes of intemperance. ,Men are idle, they have

. cent. wre ·assisted- temporarily from time to time until ,little _ mDney to spend, and -they disheartened· the they get work. · - - result is that they· seek solace in the hotel bars. I

6 W - that if we could find employment for fifty --O f

. 62. _ould some of those men be in of pen- our strongest applicants every day we should have

swns of them would, and we sup-e:le- very little trouble from intemperance.

the penswns to the extent of making the man's - 668. Do you know of any employers who have tried

' ln·come enough for liim to exist on. . -- returned men time after time and finally have despaired

663. If this of technical training, of which of utl.lizing their services at all ?-That has happened­ you speak, -were 1n vogue would that -provi

·must not be thought that I am spe.aking of 80 per cent. after the sold·iers had pl'loved so unsratisfactory. of the number of men who ha-ve returned . . They prob- _ 669. D o you think that dri.nk has been an important ably number 10,000 in Victoria alone'. A good many factor in such ?-I do not think has played a

of the nal?-es ·on my books are recurring applications, very'- important pa;rt It may ha-ve accounted fo·r a more partiCularly for light work. A man who ,is after small percentage of such cases. In regard regular that clasS. of wor_ k niay get a job for a week or two, employment men realize the effort we ·are making then be again thrown back on our hands.- . iri their beha.lf, and we impress upon them th'at we do

. 664. Have you found the sympathetic not want them to r eturn to the office. But we have

1n regard !o the employment of rej;urned so-ldiers?- always to dear with. . an unsettled diSsatisfied ele­ Every Department of the State ana Federal Govern.: ment. Such rt1en are continually coming back on our has 'given us an opportunity _!;o place returned hands. Wheri _the CollingwtO:Od Technical School started

sold1ers ·wherever possible . . The- men must _be com- we collected twenty of the 1:v1orst possible cases t 'O be petent up to a certain standard. - trained in wood working. we started with. toy making,

665. liow has the pnvate employer- treated -but that wa;s abandoned, and the instruction w:as co·hiined Both favorably and unfavorably. firms never to general ·wood working. the first six weeks

allow to pass, an opportunity of giving soldier a two. months the instructors had considerable trouble­ good try. Other :firms never ask us for men. A few with the men, and if their _ we_re turned for a few

firms took men in the early stages of the war, and ,minutes pupils would be out of the back door and

never asked for a returned soldier ·since. I have been -into.. an. hote]. Later,_ when the men began to see that told_ by soldiers who CO!ll1e to the ,-office that 1 ar some r SOllie results Were coming frcfm efforts they settled establishments they have been deliberately turn-ed down. . down to the work wonderfully well; until -:finally thf2 re On one occasion we met with hostile treatment from · was .not one case of out of the original

, · - the W-har-f Labourers' Union:. They humbugged a man twenty. Some of them never , had a wood-working . for a fortnight, and then he was told that he wo'uld tool in their hands when they started, but all those who have to be pJ;oposed for membership hefore he co·uld were physically capable made good. -get a job on the wharf. Eventually he was proposed, · 670. Do you find that after the men have returned

but he could not get a seconder for his nomination. We t() a 110rmaLcondition _of hea-lth they are much easier to tlie union secretar y and -volunteered to pay to deal with than they were when they -:first returned?-the man's fee, because he had not got t4e money with Much easier. '

which to pay it. The correspondence closed without - 6-71. Do you come acro$s returned soldiers who never any definite understa_p.ding, and the man n,ever became apply t o your ,office at all ?-=-l meet many such men. a member of the union. He told riie that the only 672 . Would they 1 are rather fond of :a..

- reason for that was that he could not get anybody to drink hardly think so, h_ aving regard to the p·osi-second his nomination. · .. ·

. 666. Do you find that a certain .percentage of the tions m·any of them are----holding. Every unemp1,oyed 'soldier comes to me sooner or later. ·Men of high in-. men who have received Government empl<;>yment be- tellectual -attainments, good clerl.cal capacity, or :first -come again unemployed ?-Yes. In many cases that - class wbility need-never worry the State War

is due to incapacity. In other the men seE)m to .

- have become careless and restless, notably men who.; Council. - The:f' _ can work witJhout ·c-onsultmg' the have accepted employment in the Railway Departni(mt Council o·r else. at places like Mary borough, Ballarat, and Bendigo. 673. I that one -of the main- troubles is that

They seem to evince a de_ sire to, get l:>ack to Melbourne. a ibig percentage of the men who ,a:re unemploye'd be­ In other cases men find it necessary to get-employment Long to the cllltss of men whom, it was difficult to .,place ' at' places where they can get hospital treatment from before the war?-That is one - of the main' difficulties time to time. This necessity is one of the main factors we have to contend with. In pea!3e ·and in wa·r the

in preventing .men from leaving the big centres. easual unskilled labourer will ·always present an em-, 667. Do you :find that many men lose their employ- ployment -pr01blem. - -

-ment through intemperance?-Not a very great, num- 674. You find that a number o£ the returned-soldiers her . . If a man comes into the office the worse for drink are quite .s randed?-I£ is when they are stranded-·that -, he is promptly but :firmly made to understand that his they come to us. The average man on discharge wifl proper place . is in the street, and that he must not· .receive about £30 in deferred paJ1. 'The soldier rarely - return to the office until he- is .,sober. N owaday.s the has any other money to collect. His first consideration

- men neyer question that authority, Utsual_ly is -to fit himself out in ci-vilian attire. Certainly the

come back sober the next day. We see very httle 1n.:. Department supplies him with a suit, but in

sobriety at tli.e War Council's office, having regard to the past in 99 cases out of a hundred the suits were the number ·of who come there every day and the such that the men wou-ld not wear them. The purchase

\

: of boots.- ·qig hole in £ 30.- 683, _ Would it be true to say that one had re-

Then. he has. to pay hoard for a few weeks, .and have a ceived £50 in weekly payments ?-I- do not think it . little and then, u_ nless }le is. a of ·some that that all:!ount has been paid, although

......._mec.hanical talent or training, he finds a difficulty in I should not be if a man who ·is

getting work. A further. disability is- the inan's, lack of blind has over £100. Iri :such a. cas.e we· could QoJ;lfidegce in regard_ to his fitness to work. As a . matter _not refuse to give the m·oney. In other cases men have of fact, . the -majority ·Q{ the- £00T feltows not. fit f;n··- received a large .amount of money, the granting of which , work. _ =- -. ,_ · ..:: _ . > € justified . by the circumstances of tP,e case. A man

· 675. To what extent do you think that drink' inter- is requl.red to show; .either that is unemployable, or feres _ with the legitimate finding of for tha-t there is not available any w:ork he c:an do. 'If we

returnea men ?-My opinion is that unemployment . ar.e not aftBr a few that he is still unabl_e­

is the -c'ause of -. drinking, and not drinking the to he 1s sep.t to a _medical o,fficer fo-r exami­

c,ause of unemployment. I bearing in mind the . We act on the medical .s

men who come to the office dal.ly and the manner :If necessary, reduce the amount we him . . There IS which tliey speak and behave. They will sit there-in an a on my b.ooks now whose .pensiOl}_ IS orderly manner for a couple of hours, and they will. ex- for h1mself, 1fe, and tw? _children, that :nan 1s press· the'ir regret that -they cannot work They le-ave n

the office disappointed. They ro,am ab-out the town with two legs. He 1s cripple.d and worn <;>ut

nothing to -do. I think nothing is m.ore likely to drive , \\:-th At the last. me-eting of the War

_ men to drink_ tha_n the faGt of -having 1w work, in con- : Council a similar consiftered, and I have jifhction -vv:itli a despondent state of mind. If the actjon -. _ doubt that some . w1ll taken. That man we ar:e taking now can be amplified to the exten-t that _ so ba4-tha.t he had to be' out of the office and mto wP- can urge upon -em lo ers to remember that the able- a tram. It he said that that man does _n ot

l-· d'· d · h pd .Y f deserve more as.

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and from .overseas, and the ·number who h.ave received order to fo-rce him to His becomes ·an ad­

employment. My office derals . with every _ discharged ditional burden on the ' State, and will add materially member of the Australian Imperi:tl Foree,_ but we give to big bill that_ will have to oe· paid when the war prefex:ence ·.-to rE)turiled soldiers, .and to married men ,...is over. · .

before single. 703. ,;.H ;ave you found that drink has be,en resp_onsible

694. Do you find that .employers have honoured their for some of th,e di:tficulties .that confront you to-day in promises to reinstate the men who- went abroad ?-I do _ securing employment for the men who are on your not think there is any means of obtaining t . list .. of books ?-To ra modified extent. / .

firms, which publicly made" that promise.. 704. Would yqu be in of dealing with the

695. Have any complaints been made by those who drink traffic in such ' a manner a.s to pr0hibit th_e im­ use your office_ t_hat employers have failed to )reep _ their portation, manufacture, or sale of intoxicants?-I do Yes; occasionally a man comes into the not think I would. BecitUSe ip. isolated instances a

offic-e and makes that statement. I suppose tpat. I have soldier will make a f.ool of him_ self, why should ·other had 50 such complaints, ·and my experience is. that not persons in the community suffer? The reg11l,ation of the more than half of them were justified. , drink traffic, so far as soldiers in uniJorm are concerned,

696. ·vVill you /give me the name of the man whom - may .be 'bu

1 t I think it be a rather

the \Vharf L.,abourers union .refused to admit to . mem- drastiC step the ?Ut of un;Iform under the

-bership because he _ could not get a seconder for his .rest:r1.c.twns as sold1er. I have seen

nomination ?-The man was Peter Galiano. men 111 un1form come -mto the ·offiee, and they have ex-697 / H h ,k 'd h h f 112 I d · pressed their intention of having a glorious . time for a -, . ; as e. wol e on .t .. e IV ar. s_ a .- -o not few weeks. At the end of t hat time, having had their th1nk so .. He_ 1s no;v, ma_kmg m 1 fling, they come to us for \¥ork. Whether the prohibi-

R DIDd youtr office£ secure madny the -· tion of the sale of intoxicants would overcome the pre-

al way epar ment or returne so rers .- great 't t - bl I · ot a

- numbe·r. sen rou e, cann_ s y. -

. _ . - - . . _ 705. Can you say how many men have passed through

699 .. D1d of men go on -durmg the the organization of the war Council in Victoria :up to

trouble .-I do thmk any of them d,ate ?-No. It would be ne-cessary- to ascer tain from

Mfc;;nnonf secretary the paid in amelioration, for the

. le. c. Ie ? er ' o u e y re rame . rom ta - purc1lase businesses. and furniture, for' land settle­

Ing s1des m. mdustnal dispute. a man elected to ment and as allowances to soldiers sustenance money throw up l;t1s b1llet and go out on ·stnke, the W _ar Goun- d/ ' f th - -- ' '

cil would have nothing to do with him, so far as his so or •

action in striking was concerned, no-r :.would we assist 706. In how many cases have . returned soldiers ,been allY ·employers by men to them to a ct as strike-_ assisted to make homes and get a living from the land? breake:m. If a firm- was working' and the union men -=-I cannot say. My office merely deals with employ­ were not on strike,_ we would send .men to it, hut we ment, and rE)commends men for amelioration. would not ,send men JO any firm - against·. the

unionists. struck. 707. Is it expected that the- organiz,ations of which

you rare in charge will continue during tbe currency of

700. Does it not seen1 extraordinary that in Ia State the' wa-r and for sorn'e time afterwards ?-1'1y opinion is as large as Victona there should he' 70'0 men unaple sooner or later, the :finding of employment :vJ,ll be­ to s'ecure suitaDle employment ?'--Not when the ·.con- , come a national -...Jllatter. The Government w1ll take clition of men is taken into control of all in' the

_ 701. ' ;Did 1 understand you to suggest that the pros- . 708. Is not the organization ;f ,you a1'8 in

pect of securing employment for these men would be .,. charge under the cop.trol of· the Government is greatly imprpved if the Employers Federation could be UJlder the D,epartment of Repatriation, but it is induced to di_scharge eligible me·n to make room for organized only to deal with the returned spldiers._ There returned soldiers ?-I did not menti_qn 11nythirrg about is · not the slightest ,ijoubt . thl'!:t as long as there are discharging eligible men. I do not urge that an.Y: man, soldiers in -our midst that branch will continue, but I whether eligible -or othe'r"':':ise, .should be put out of work, think that in a · few years its operations ·will have a but I do say that men who are /physically fit to do work- .broader scope-.- - · / _

.oJ a more ·laborious character than tha:t at _which they " - ·

are at present employed might be urged _ to secure such , 709. By Senator Buzacott.----How long have you been ' work, -and so make room for -weaker men in th_ e easier . in your present po.sition ?-"Since J ,anuary, 1916. duties. ' - - 710. have·. been their pre-

702. I understood you to ,say that it would facilifate sent position ?-Three of :them were appointed only a the e:rrrg;l oyment of returned .soldiers who are at pre- few days ago. One is a returned sailor, .but - s·ent on your books if ' employers wou1d pass -0 ut the parti,ally attached - to my office. Five '" are returned . men who are now in -employment, and ,are .ap- soldiers whose' physical disability prevents them doing

parently giving satisfaction, to· rooni for· members any other class of work. Only .o.ne of the staff is of the Australian Imperial Force?-The Employers for military servic·e, and-he is a sing-le !U·an, but he 1s Federation is only one section of the associated employ- , the member -of st;:tff who CO}lld carry on the_ ing bodies. There are the Chambers of Commerce, the wprk 1f I were n9t Master Builders, and other If those employers-- , 711. Do the men who come !nto your office the worse could be prevailed upon to urge then who are p-resent for drink represent a l1arge percentage 1-N o. As a performing light · duties-for instancei storemen, rule if men are the worse for drink they wilL not come, packers, and lift attendants-but who are able bodied nea; us. From ·the commencement we made it a rule enough to do heav1.er wo k, to look out for othe,.,r enwloy- that if men come to 'us in that condi'tion they ·can expect ment, and so make room for partly disabled soldiers, noth · -g such action would help materially towards a solution of ,

111 •

our problem. I have urged that policy at every oppor- ' 712 . Do._:Voi think that the shouting habit is respcm-tunity during the last twelve months: While there are sible for soidiers taking drink to excess ?-The abolition so many single eligible men' without responsibilities,• I of shouting_ is one of the pre;yentivHmeasures that might do not/think it fair that an eligible man with a wife be adopted. · I would prevent shouting, RO far soldiers :=Jnd children · should be put out of his employment in are conce;rned.

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_... 7_ 13. In )regard ' to -your ' s.tatement -that. one. was. 720. By the Chairman.-Have you been arsociated

unable to jo-in the Wharf Labourers Timon, 0s It _corp.- with any of t]J.e military camps ?-I was puJsory f.or ,a man to be-a member of the umon bef.ore the Show-grounds camp at Ascot Vale until It w_as dis­ he can 1•vork on ·the wharf?-Apparently, at that time continued. Since then"' have been associated -"vith it was . compulsory. _ · - Isolation O.amp at Vale.

714. Does that apply to · oth,er -Governn;tent work?- 721. Have you been resident in either camp?::-Yes, in No; a- retur:ned soldier who · is sent from- my office t·o both. I have a tent at the Isolation .Camp, and, as I any Government Department' will re·ceive preference .... am secretary to the officers' mess, I practically reside ,of whether: he is a or· not. -. . there. -

715. By Senator Colonel Rowell.--Do y·ou experience 722. What is the purpose of that Isolatiou Oamp ?--:-. any great 'difficulty in getting men to go into the _ conn- All contacts with various diseases are taken there. If · try for· work ?-Occasionally we do. Some men · seem any one in a camp is seized with menir1gitis the throats 1 to' dislike going into the country. If a man of al the contacts are examined and swabbed. If they

away from his home two or three years,- and has his Wife show any evidence of germs the cm1tacts are tf!,ken to - and family living in :Melbourne, why should he· be asked · the Isolation Camp. -Mumps and measles qontacts go to go to the country-? It costs too mucli m<,mey t? trans- there, and sometimes men from vessels on which an:v port. the wife •and family to the ·country. · Many me.n, kind of disease has broken out.

however· have do.ne that, and have 1n,adei good, a.1;.td we ' '

__ have the money to transport them, their wives, -, 723. To what extent do the drinking habits of the

families. and furniture. . men interfere with discipline or with the efficiency o£

716. Do you :find that a certain percentage of the the Forces ?-The effect was very harmful before the men are Yes ; it is the old problem of . 6 o'clock closing came into force. Evidence of drinking

.placing the unskilled labourer, 1accentuated by the fact i-s - not so· pronounced of late , because there is not so that he has returned with war disabilities. Some of great a number of men in camp. The result of drink­ these men have always been, and always will be, dri-nkers ing has been that men have deserted, that the health to a modera-te or heavy 18xtent, but idleness and de- of others has broken down, and that others have been spondency ,add to the drink tiouble. That fact has been · discharged from: the Forces. demonstrated conclusively in connexion with the wood- 724. What perce11tage .would be affected in that way?

working classes · the ·wool at -It is very difficult to/ascertain the percentage that is

Haughton's, clickmg. We selected SO odd men directly traceable to intoxicants.· For instance} if a

_ to go up country and learn wool classing. At they man meets some friend and becomes intoxicated just could scarcely stand for and- a half hours m the when his leave is up, rather than be carpeted he stays

wool-classing school, but ,after !-hey been a few _ away from .camp a little longer, and then perhaps he weeks in the school, and had pa.ssed 'through two or becomes a nd jlese_ I:ts. No one : without ,. being three shearing she.ds, they had i:rr{proved- in health be- aware of the hst of desertions could estimate what the yond" all recognition. Arl:'angements hav.e made number of such cases might be-, but I should say that ·

for re-starting the class to complete the trammg of 75 per cent. of the cases of overstaying leave o-r break­ men, and the. maj.ority ,are now at work at ·the varwus ing camp are due to indulgence in intoxicating liquors. -wool stores in the city. r- think onJy two gf the men At least, that is abol!_t tp.e percentage in /connexion with went to the wall through drink. the camps with which I have had anything to do.

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1 n7. By-Senator Lt.-Oolonel Bolton.-Do believf 725. percentage would those 75 per cent. repre--that indulgence in .alcohol > reduces the war sent of all the men in camp ?_:_I do . ot know. The

the nation?-The indiscriminate use o( al'cohoi-Is detn- strength of the camps varies -so niuch. Tlfere may be mental to a:ny Dian's efficiency. Any indulges very few- men in camn and yet there may be a great

· · · · 1' ' d · · k' h s It not fit 1 ' m .Intoncating Iquors. urmg wor I?-g our . number of absent-without-leave cases. l\1:any men who to properly perform his wo..rk, but If a man desues a " do . not catch their ships may be. 'punished just when enj?yment at night, I think he be _allowed there happens to be a small number remaining in camp_ ,

to have It. . __ ·and. in that way there might be a bigger percentage of

718. By the Ohairman.-If we, as a nat.wn, had been men affected by drink in a small camp than in a big total abstainers before the war, do you thmk .that your -· camp :filled with men who are anxious to do their duty work of finding employment for returned soldiers w.o:rld and train with the object of getting away as soon as have been lighte:r ?--:-We say what the conditiOn . possible. In such circumst-ances absent-without­

of affairs would nave been m country before the _ war leave -cases form a very small percentage. - if Australia had been a prohibiti·on ?ountiy .. I. will.say,_ 72B. In your position as chaplain have you personal however, that a mQn who d.oes not m.IntoxiCat-_ knowledge of/ cases in which persons who were total ing liquo:v to .tlfe of with hls abstainers or extremely moderate -drinkers prior to en­

, ment causes I\O :to me or anybody .else. I listment have developed into excessive drinkers subse­

, ge_t very instances /m the ·office of soldiers bemg m quent to enlisting ?_:_Sometimes a _ chaplain comes into a state of drunkenness. . · . very close contact with men and some of the lads whom

719. But t1ier(2 are a ga.od number of n;en who are -I have endeavoured to hav'e a chat with have told me - addicted -to drink, and would be a. nursance to the that they never knew the taste of drink until they came general public ?-There IS a proportiOn of returned into cam '

soldiers who take alcohol to excess, but thev seldom come . P· - . . .

near us 'when under 1he influence of drjnk, b8cause , . !27. If ro.a:1 b: c?n;tes worse for hquor does It they know that they would be turned down. With his traming .-Yes.

'/ T'h 't 'thd . 1 728. Do you think that the fact that men come into .... e. Wt ness Wt rew. camp the worse for liquor and interfere with the sleep THURSDAY 7TH FEBRUARY, 1918. of others minimizes the efforts of those who do not - " ' Present: - · · .drink; that is, to say, it prevents them from· doing their Senator Chairman. - training proper Iy during the next day?-There are less Senator Lt. Col. J?olton / Senato"r' Grant men,in a tent now than there used-to be. Naturally, men Senator Buzacott Senator CoL RowelL are- up§_et by the disturhance of others coming in during Rev.erend _ Thomas- Sta'ines Brittingham Woo.dfull, the night in such. a conditio?-, but as a rule soldiers get Chaplain, Australian Imperial ForGe, sworn and used to these thmgs and simply turn over and go to examined. · sleep again. I •

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729. By S enator Colonel Roiue l].-Men who are in- _ 740. Have you .alw..ays been ,attached to the Moonee · toxicated are not- allowed to go to their t ents ?-It is Ponds and Essendon circuit ?-No. For six years I wunderful how they can :find their way to their tents. was superintendent of the Collingwood Methodist Every man on guard does not repor_ t cases of intoxica- ' Mission, after which I had ch11rge of the Bendigo cir­

tion.- Men can straighten the-mselves up they go past cuit: Then for two -years -I all over

J -the sentry. It would not do to be over particular with Victoria on, of our centenary wor k. ·

sop1e of these men. They are not bad soldiers. ' Some- - -

times there are altercations when men come in and dis- · 741. Do you receive letters from parts of the turb others, but. I would not say that the from and fathers of those who have

with the others is very great, b_ ecause when the men com- Into camp .-Qurte of them. _

ing ip. late are very bad they are put into the guard 742. Have you kno,yn of many members of your c? n-- tent. There is a great deal of comradeship among the -- gregatioh s who have been total abstainers before enhst­ men, and those who are upset by_ -the eouduct of others _ ing but have since become so addicted to drink as to be will not "put them away." r the cause -of sorrow and anguish to their -parents-?-

. , _ - _ _ One young lad went away a fine sober fellow. I-lls

- 730. Ey the_ _who t? camp peopfe belong to the Salvation ft_rmy. On his_ r eturn

the worse of hquor have __ to be drilled With thmr com- he was sent to our Isolation Gamp, and_ the-doctor had _pany on the next day ___ to sit up with- him 'to 2.-30 a.m. one morning in order

731. Have you known officers to find_ it more difficult -to save his life from alcoholic poisoning: On that same to train their companies because men have ind1flged night one man, who came back minus a leg, broke out . excess in drink on the previous night ?-I have watched through the baroed wire. H-e was covered with slime men training and wondered why some of them could not and in a dreadful state. After he was discharged I

keep -step, but I would not like to say was the met him, when he was trying to cross the traffic in

reason for it. - When one or two-men in a-, company are · Flinders-str eet, Melbourne. He was staggering and i 1i_ slack the wbo1e-company is delayed. The officers would a deplorable state. I helped him a cross, ru1d h ave given be the best men to give an answer· to yo"Q-r question. hirrc assistance sin ce then in regard to his -affairs, about 731A. ln all the camps with which you have been ..wJiich_ he WaS Very -muddled. "'associated were dry canteen_s ?-Yes. 743. Are those cases of young fellows who _ were total

. 732. I take It that every made ?Y the officers_ abstainers when they enlisted and h ave- since become In to that -no hquor Is sold In a or the worse for liguor ?-Yes.

- brought mto It ?-The officers have been -as -stnct- as h · y b t

possible. Liquor used-to come into the Show-grounds 7-44: Hav.e there been many sue .- es, u

Cainp, in milk cans. At other times :6.shing lines were they have not b_een so pronoun?ed two. Many used to get it over the fence. :But the officers -were strict lads have told me that the poin! at which the_y broke in doing their duty. . · " !Vas when t_he;y: learnt to drink the

733. It has oeen stated by almost ever y witness that -In Sahsbur;y PlaJ-n_s.- lfany parents have to me the young soldiers are extremely and that · on that pomt me to to ·get altered.

of the intemperance is displayed by m iddle-aged have ]earned of_ from letters

soldiers. is that your opinion ?-The majority of ou _ r whiCh !hey h!lve recmy ed their _

young are fine .young fellows. Unfortunately have _ written to me telhng,. me the. of

SOme of the older m en have led the younger lads-astra/ have _ been due to- the fact that-starting Wlth a There is a greater amount of drinking amOJrg -the drmk at tl;le wet canteens men haye-got th-an they -midd1e aged than ;the young men. __ _ - . , tQ have taken and lain out m the open all

734. I suppos.e. thart, ·I -am right in assuming that you and through the _e_ xposure have contr.acted _ pneu-are a total abstainer?-Yes. - monia. -

_ 735. An

73"6. Would -you go · so far as to say that the· con- quite sober and le.arned "to drink when away. ·

sumption of intoxicating · liguors, even in small · quan- - -_ 746; The -:. mischief not· been- very :so far as _ tities,, is injuriou!l! to the indl.vidual '¥ es. Aust:r:alra is concerned?-I f has been- bad in some in-

737. What pel:'-centage of soldiers belongs -to- that stan.ces, but .it has not been wide-spread. Lads, who · ·class to whom drink is a curse, that is to say, it inter- have come d0 wn -from the country districts and gone feres with their work and makes them a nuisance to into Melbourne ·to ·have a fly round, riot wishing to be other p8'0ple would not say- that -it was more than have 1earnt t_ o drink. I do __ n---ot say that drink- -

10 per cent. I do ·not speak of the man who can take ing-has become a pronounced habi-t with them or that a coup-!e of glasses and leave drink alone, but I refer they have ,become drunkards, but it has become their to the man who once he starts cannot knock off until -habit to have a -glass or two. 1' have receive_ d letters _ he has had his "boose up" and has slept it off, in other- from ·parents.

. words, to the man ·over whom · drink has the mastery. "- 7 4 7. It is a m_ a tter .of regret their p.aren fs ?-It is I think I can honestlysay that about 8_ per cent. of the · men are in that class. a m.atter of extreme i·egret to them. -::- · 748. Lads who reside in the city go to- their' homes . . _738. They have learnt to drink before they when they haY-e leave ?-Yes. · · - -JOined the Forces ?-:-Almost all of them would have 749. Would the country form- a per- done sO: h- · ' eentage of those who take drink in. t e circum.:. - You think that the closing of hotels at 6 o'clo ck stances which you have mentiOned ?-I am ,....sure they has improved matter-s ?=-Yes. There was a gr eat im- would. - Unless the lads get chummy with city boys _they provement at the beginning before temperance ·bars wer e wander about· the streets. N otwitlistanding all the _in­permitted to be opened in connexion w_ ith hotels. When ·stitutes and rest homes,' street life is ri:i.ore attractive to permission was given to licensees, to sell ." neer beer " them. -They me,et their mates in the streets. It is in and other such drinks, many.: of them did not hesitate to the streets -that comradeship starts up. I do not think supply the real thing. In that way a great aeal of the that there ' is much increase in the drinking habits o£ good done by the 6 o'-clock closing was undone. In tlie city lad·s . . .-- initial stages of the. working of the 6 o'clock closing 750. What were you before you became a clergyman 1 there was -a ma;rked Improvement. -I was a chemist.- -

751. .Vjenereal disease plays an part in_ con- in healtli, suffering from nerve shqck, blind, or nexion with a certain section of the soldiersJ:::,.:_Un- tated from various, wounds, it will be veri hard for , fortunately, it does. thein Jo settle- down again -to the old · conditioi_?.s, where

752. We have had some evidence given to us that tlfey under home influences and in steady occu- .

men who are total abstainers and moderat-e drinkers -pations. The.· trench l_ ife, the exeij;ement of warfare, form the larger of who contract vene- t-he · of men in camp all lead to condi-

, real disease would not agree with that statement. tions which will need a lot of undoing and make it hard It is 'against the to say that- drink lS not an incen- to g.et these men ,to settle down, and if there is :Q.Othing tive .to sexual interc-ourse. When I was in charge of , to p:r{)tect them from drink and other influences we are -Q9llingwood district I strongly advocated the ep.actment ,going to reap _ a very sad Th!lt is r eally the of . a Midwifery Bill and the inspection of private hos- object of otlr league. -:- · .._

pitals. - A Bill :was passed. A nup1ber of - 757. You woufd-prevent the sale and manufacture of

my inen visited--sixty-four chemists' i1i1Q_xicating-liquors throughout the whole of Australia?

lishments in Melbourne and bswk ·stores, and at sixty -Yes, we would put it to the will of the people, but, in of them they purGhased _ r11bber goods, French letters, the . meantime, we would ask Parliameut to enact total and pessaries that women use, ,an.d other preventatives. I prohi1ition during war time, and for a ·certain period submitted the list of names to the authorities, also· the a_fterwards-on the · s_ ame lines as Canada and America name of an establis-hment· on the pther ·side of the river .are now. _ _

where these goods were being The next 75K You were .a:q advocate of prohibitiQn before the

step was- a big

lead many into associations that are corrupt t:Qat they . 761. And that under . ordinary circumstances the would nevBr enter .l).nless they were under _the influence . Federal Government 1. could not establish prohibition of drink. The breakdown of t}leir will power through except in regard to Federal te:rritories ?-Yes; unless drink leads theni to become more easily a prey ·to tP.e it was\ the ·desire of tlie all over . the Common­ inducements that certain people o.ffer. I could give wealth to express their will on the .matter by means of quite a lot of evidence on.that point. - . a ref-erendum. Q£ cou1;-se the- Government

., 753. One .witn.ess gave us to tha.,t the ·chief deal - with the importation ·or exportation of

cause of complaint was from total abstainers and mode- hquo:J;"s. rate drinkers ?-Drink le:;tds,_in many instances, to the 762. It cannot control the manufacture or _sale of use of' drugs, and ·drugs leads to immorality. ,Quite a liquor: ina State?-Tha.t is so. .

number have a glass at night and what they call a_ pick- '_ 763. But things· can . be done under War Pre­ me-up in the morning; but by-.and-by they . more 'tautions Act that could not be done in ordinary circum-stimulants-=-you cannot call therq. heavy drinkers-and stances ?-:-Yes. -

then it is that they become more liable to be- a prey . 764. You would not advocate that prohibition should to sexual indulgence. The heavy drinker exhausts his be enforced against a civilian 11nd-ef the War Precau­ p,assion in a -drunke-n debauch :.. , Wliile -I might agree tions Act do think that the War

that the excessive -drinker is not o ne wllo is most prone - Act shou,ld be used for ordinary civil government, and to sexual -. intercourse, I must say that the man- who I would not ask that it should be /put into/ operation 'to begins to drink a glass-here' and a glass there once or -establish prohibition 'Simply as an ordinary .measure twice a-day, -and can never be called -:a drunkard; is one emanating 'from__the Federal' Government; but for war

in Whom desires are created that must be satiated. - purposes and to SBCtlre economy and efficiency, and in 754. The evidence is that 60' per cent. Qr 70 per cent. order to bring all our resour.ces to bear on this great of the men in the Lang:w-ai·rin Camp are total abstainers . effort, I advocate the use of the powers given under the or distinctly temperate men. What proportion of that War Precautions Act in- tl}e direction that I have men­ would be total abstainers ?---:-Perhaps half of tioned. . _· · _ , _

The proportion of yoimg fellows who are total 765. y -ou would not advocate the use of the War Pre:

abstainers -is pretty good.· Tliis matter touches another eauti:ons Act if it did not affect the military position?-aspect of -the social .question. A great many of the It weuld not be a just use of the Act. picture :films shewn now are quite inducive to passionate 766. Before the War Precautions Act could be used reeling. If you· were to c.onsult some of _ the police, bring about nationa-l prohibition a very strong case

especially the suburban po-lice, you w0uld :find that after · would have to be made out to -show that drinK inter­ picture shows quite a number -of lads and fered with_ efficiency or led to lack of or a lack

_girls commit acts of That is. not due to of vigorous effort towards the prosecution of the war?-

drinking. - _ -' . -- A strong case would have to be made out,· and it can be

755. You are pre§.ident of the · Prohibitiop. League?- made -out. - . -

Yes. - _ _, - . 767. As chaplain, have you come into contact with

_ What are the objects of-that league?-To .bring · retu-rned soldiers?-When boats CQme in-with returned about war-time prohibition and _for six-or nine months - soldiers the chaplains are expected to patrol the streets after the war, and to submit ultimately to. the people £?_f the city and keep - a sort. of guardianship over· the of A:ustralia, by means of a referendum, the whole men. If you see them .standing in groups in f nmt of questiOn of the drink traffic. We desire to make it a hotels and passing 1n to them it is your duty to mingle

Commonwealth _inat!er. There are six different liquor wit:D. them unpretentiously and get into conversation laws in Australia as well as the Federal tegulations with them and try to get them away from the hotels. which govern the ca].llps, the navy, the Northern Terri-/ 768. ;:Many of the men's friends .treat them with un-tory, and Papua. We say that there is need for a wise

prohibition-league, for the purpose of securing 769;' We have been told that for a we.ek or so men are

natwnal efficiency and from the stand-point of economy, the wo rse for. liquor, but that afterwards many of them because Australia spends· £20,000,000 annually in dTink. become quite normal again, and that in other cases the / If there is .:p.eed for money, and if tb.e last man and drinking -habit becomes permanent; would you advocate the last !ire to be used, the of £2_DJOOO,OOO national prohibition in those circumstances ?-Yes, for

annually on the consumption of drink is absolutely in- their sakes and for the sake of the men who are going excusable.· We feel that when men come back shattered away. There is another aspect of this. When men I

. . / /

56 -I

return they are given a certain amount of .money, and -going to gain a greater advantage from the prohibition when they meet their friends you can quite of the manufacture and sale of intoxicating liquors, I

that, being "flush," th ey are liable to drink to excess. should say that it could afford to pay some compen-If another method of supplying t,he returned soldiers sation. · ·

with funds was -introduced it would be an improvement. 775. Most of the vineyards were planted at the in-. Their excessive drinking is not only due to meeting stig-ation of the different State Governments; what frie-nds, it )s also due to the fact that they have the · ·Wiould become· of them if prohibition were established? money to spend. I earnestly advocate the use of the -I do not think that the wine industry is very b-ene­

War Precautions Act, because, while in some cases the · fi cial. The grapes can be put to better use than in the drinking diminishes after the men have been here a mam1fa-cture of wine. We can create consumption fo :r; little while, the evil is still and it is very -pro- ' the fruit, so that prohibjtion should not cause the

nounced. There is also the question of drinking on vignerqn as much loss as 'the• starlings occasion them . train journeys. I know that it is the desire of the at the present time. Some of the vineyards could be

military authorities that no liquor should be allowed on closed up. •

- trains carrying troops, but there is a great deal of 776. Do you know of any instances in which lads

evidence that drinking does occur amongst troops on who were inclined to take drink before they went to the train journeys. If the officer in charge is very efficient Front have come baek refonued ?-I have not met any he can minimize it, but he cannot be in every carriage: such cases, but I _would n:ot say j;hat there h ave not been Some have told me that they have confiscated instances 9£ it. -

as many as sixty or seventy bottles of whisky from one. 777. What drinks are sold ·at the Salisbury Plains company,' and thrown them out o! the train. :Men have wet canteens ?-Beer is sold there, I believe. My second come to the isolation qamp from country camps, and son has written to me telling tne of some of·the ill-effect have arrived in a more or less intoxicated condition. . of the wet canteens on Salisbury He says that

They must have secured tl;le drink at stations along the they ought to be cut out. route. These men are a danger to the community, be- 778. Do yo u not think that most of the yom1g fello·w8 cause they are carrying germs. For the sake of the are led astray in- the firs_ t plaoo by older men?-I think efficiency of these lads and the health of the public, all that tP,e ·old r fellows start the young men drinking. 1·efreshment rooms on railway stations should be closed 779. Would an anti-shouting law have 1a good effect?

when trains arrive if there are troops on them. I know -Yes; I have advoaated uch a thing. I am sure that - that a regulation to that effect is in force, and how these _ it wou1d' minimize _the evil .of drinking. lads get the drink, I do not, know. . 780. IIa've you seep. the effed of drinking to any great

77?. BY_ Senator Buzacott.-Are any of the cases m extent among -the wives of soldiers ?-No. · the 1solatwn camp due to indulgence 'n in-toxicating 781 B S t 0 z l R Zl D - th' k

liquors ?-I would not sa that. mum s menin ·itis or · Y ena or 0 one .- 0 you not m

measles are b thy f · t ' t' rg ' • that some form of compensatiOn shodd be granted to

771 Hav Y _ e usff e 0 t Info.xrca the license,e, who h as_ put ·all b.is capital into his busi-

- . . e you seen -- any e ec S' o mtoxicatmg Iquor 'l I · th · h If f · h · bl' -

on t4e cases at the isolation· cam) ?-Onl when the n_ess .-- -suppose . at a . o t e pu leans are

break camp If a doct · t ·· t' 1 Y . Y s1mply agents for brewenes, but 1f .you do compensate

gitis throa't . and th lS ln\ a man Wl I them, it would be less loss to the Oommonwe'alth, as a

liqu-or it intens'fi tha rea£ tsh camp arfl a es whole, than rthe•. loss -suffered deterioration of

, I es e ac 1v1 v o e germs or some e:ffi · d th h · th f £20 000 000

days afterwards and dela s his dischar e from the ·Clen.cy, an . ' e - waste 0 ' ,

camp. ' Y g · on drmk. If the , Government took over the

7·72 What is th . t , f _ b k - Th - bmldmgs and t_ he land at ra valuation, they could be used

_ · . e per o . camp " r,ea ers .- . e to greater advantage. •!I · ·

percentage IS gradually dimimshmg beca-use the periOd · .. -

of is being made more and the men ....r782. -H_ ow many there in the Isolation Camp?

know 1£ theY: persist in breaking camp there may -When ,the Port ·Dmcol'!l' trouble, were 600

be a tnp to Bendigo for The percentage is not or 700 New m the camp. Perhaps the

large, not nearly so large as itA" usetl. to be. _ . number we have had would ·her· 1,900, but at

. 773 . Do the men break. camp for the -sake of getting times we have _ less than 100 there. At one t1me we may d;1nld-Men have been: m camp quite sober and an• ha1e a large number, and the .nul!l?e:r may go ­ rr9ht, and would . have stayed in camp but that some · do"YP- to well under 100. Wllien IS of

frrend has c?me along and surreptitiously passed in a m,easles, the number -of . contacts IS At

· bottle of whisky. Once ·having commenced the men present, the camps are very -Just before\ the

have been anxious to get out of camp to get m'ore drink. old year went -out a 'l!lrge of ·out

I have kno·wn cases of that kind: ... Drink is passed in in the and -until new recruit;:; -come 1n the train-- parcels, although there is a; strict search. If the officers 1r:g camps' be move o-r depJ·eted. Our numbers the .idea that a cert.ain man has h. d liquor .brought are. small when numbers. in the

In to: him, all of his parcels are searcliea. There is a tra.mmg camps ar·e small. -

genu.me des!re to check the introduction of liqpor. - ..... 783. Do many men break camp ?-The detections far 77 4. -In the event o.f prohibition being carried or ell- breaking camp are' not very large. You 0amnot tell just acted, w?uld you be Jn favour of giving compensation how many men _do break c;:tmp until you ·detect them. , to and licensees ?-The presen.t . E.v:ery- now ·and the barbed wire is cut; and a sur­

m Vrctona Is where any' hotel is closed an pr1se roll-call finds some men missing. But !...would not

1ncreas@d licence fe_e is imposed on other hotels-in order say. that the percent,aqe is. larg-e. The men are ·put 611 to the hcensee who is deprived of his licence. then -honour not to mfect their friends. That is a

I do not beheve that there should .be compensation, be- deterrent to all fine fellows. cause .the hotelkeeper only has an annual licence. In . 784. -What is the object of those who break leave·· is - the and hotels_ have b,een to uses It to ge't some of them it is;'but I

w.hlch ha_ve given a greater revtlnue. than th fl premises not Sll;Y that 1t IS wrth the majori•ty of those who break did previOusly. all the _big breweries have camp. 'The main ·object is to meet- some friends and

packi;ng establishments, jam factories; _ when they do meet their friend-s they have a 'glass

parnt and 01l factor1esz and so OI'l. They are bringing or two. · -

m to the1r proprietors, and are of greater . 785. I suppose _ that a certain amount of liquor- g·ets

benefit mdustnally to the community, than was the case h y b b f h mto t e .- es, ut I would not that it is a · e ore . t ey were closed. However, if the country is great ·

I

I

I

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786.' Would you be 1n favour ..._of establishing •a wet of waste capital in the drink trade, which does not canteen there ?-No. - give employment or benefit the country to the extent

' 787, Have you had any experience of wet canteens 1 that it would give i£ devoted to any ·other industry. -No. . .- . - Economy would be brought about through prohibition.

788. You say there are compllaints that men have _The money inV C?Sted in the trade could be used towards learnt ta drink at the wet canteens on Sa-lisbury Plains? _r:epatriation efforts, 1and would lend immediate· aid to- _ -=-Yes; I learnL it from letters from men -over there. wards the prosperity of the country. Me_ n who have come back from /Egypt have told me 798 . An i:p.dustry which represents £20,000,000 a

exactly •the .same thing. A Presbyterian padre who has year is a pretty .. big concern to handle; no doubt your been: to the Fr·ont has told me of the · sad results of league has arrived at some logical conclusion as to how drinking. I have kept in touch with many .of the men, it· would d·eal with it; have you cqnsiderecl the question not ?nly as a clergyman, but' ::}.s a friend. They tell me of compensation as a whole, 1 and the question of dealing

what is happening. They have often asked me to. write with employees who would be put out of employment? to certain men among .their mates, and then I vvould ---There was little difficulty in ,Canada. Quebec is the receive telling me how these men have broken only province in which prolfibition was not in existence · out. - - ·· ·at_ the beginning of the and even in Quebec 900

- 789. Is it not betier . for the -men to buy their liquor -municipalities out of 1,200 have gone "dry." They tmder military control than .to get)eave and obtain i.t - have not f o-und any di:ffi·culty in deal-ing with the outside?-'-Tlie trouble is that they start at the wet can- The Go vernment ga.ve the people in each State the right teens, _9-nd _then go outside and get .more, because they to express their will, and they have given expressiorr

hav-e the appetite for it. It is not as if a man will have it. SCheir mottd now is, "The whole of Canada ary m a glass and stop. The appetite for drink is created ·at In Quebec,- there ,are rnJany French Catholics,

the wet canteen, and then they go outside ·and get more. who have had a g:r:eat deal to do. with the wine Many of them '!ould g.o into a 'public h ouse if they - and they h ave been sufficiently influential in their munl­ had not started-1 at the wet canteen. cipalities --t·o d-e·feat prohibition, but in ii;he other , big

79Q. Do you think tha!t the efficiency of the soldieTs States the people have decided: for prohibition very em­ has been greatly impaired ?-I have not been ·on the phatieally-some in 1915, some in 1916, and some in other side, and .I- canno.t say :vh at _ the e:ffegt may be, 1917. The same thing is happening in America. The but I can ,say that many a fin-e' mtm has' not gorie to the Sena-te has deci'ded that the whole of America shall go

i:rom here because of drink. - " dry." The matter has --:to be referred to some of the

791. Unf.ortunrutely, we see a good deal of drin'King States that have not already decided, bl!t, since when---.vess-els return._ Do you nqt . think that is brought there has been a tremendous increase in the number of about a great deal by the mistaken ,kindness of "dry" areas. -The P.roperty }las already ·

- -_There is no doubt aboutc and· it is often the be- . solved. , The breweries have been ut1hzed as fact0nes, ginni!lg· of the drinking habirt, but I do not say that it fmu the employment question has been greatly a matter is general. ' · _ · . rJf ·adjustment. Many of the employees were ser­

- 792. By Senator Lt.-Oolonel- Bolton.-You ·realize of the breweries, because the establishments -were thaT, because• of Australia;s ge·ographical and politioal "tied houses," and, as they had seen what was coming, isolation, it is in gNater danger . than any other part they had ma9-e provision accordingly. ..... 9f the Empire so far as this wa:t< is concerned?-If 799. Would you say that ihe ·taki_ng • Of alcohol has

th.ings should go aga_ inst us, we should _suffer more than induced disregard for mili'bary control desertion, lo!:11Y other, part of Empire. "' :mf! has led to military crime and consequep.t loss ot

793. If the Allies lose the war, would -you say that miljtary power during he war ?-I say it has distii,lCtly -it means the ultimate destruction ·of Australia as a c1con8 so. . ·

Britjsh co1iimunity ?-Australia would inevitably pass 800. Do the Jocation of camps near t

794. ·_The is such that it demands from the _ncces3 to drink neat a.t han_d, they get it. The hotel in

people of Australia a supreme effort in pros-ecuting the the vicinity o.f t.he Show Gr01il1ds' camp was. dos.ed .to \V'ar am sure that it does. - soldiers, but the men could go into Melbourne and get

. -795. And, _ ino :four opinion, pr·ohibition_ i;; necessary drink, not only in the open streets, but in the by-ways; liL order ·tO ·Secure the maximum national effort in the whiel1 are WOrRe, there they COme in COntact prosecution of the wad-T-hat is a very sacred coil.- with jmmorality. ,

. viction of my heart. / . - - 801. Could that be ay;o ided if the camps were removed

796. Would you consider that prohibition would be from the cities ?-I am not sufficiently an expert in helpful in solving the of repatri•ation ?-It military matters to deal with the question of leave, but

help very materially to solve , man..y difficulties if mei1 have to travel long distances from camps they

ar1smg out of rthat problem. Men would become more must have longer leave. When a man is camped near efficient, and settle down more speedily. a- city and h as to get back to camp each night he will

797.- Have you any knowledg:e as to the num.ber' of pull himself together and get there, but if he is camped pe6ple who a1:e engaged in the handling and distribu- at a distance from the city, and has two or three days' tion of ·alcohol in Australia·?-I h'ad 1 a list of the num- leave, he becomes the prey to ver y much worse conditions ber _of distilleries and employees of breweries. One can- when he stays in the city over night.

not. easily ascertain- the number of and 802. In a national crisis like this, when our very exist- -

employees. Mr. Knibbs has a large quantity of ence depends _ on the success of the war, do yo u not think

evidence orr that point. One recognises that it would tha! when a scrldier goes into camp he should regard'iJ as be a big disability to pur 1all these- people ·O -ut of em:=;, a serious business, and not as a picnic, and should not but the amount of capital th:at is us-ed in tho expect to have leave eve ry week-end ?-Certainly.

dnnk trade employs less per £1 than that which is em- 803 . What yo u say about leave is quitf( a secondary ployed in any other trade. If that money were put into matter altogether?- It is, but, at the same time, it is repatriation work, or into some other f·orm of work it the practice to grant leave. On the'whole I think that would give more employment and bring in a better 're- if a camp is situated away front the city the men ·are

turn. In the trade. the employee gets 15s. out of subjected to less tempt ation. It is perhaps quieter, and every £1 of oap1tal employed. In the drink t rade the gives more probability of better discipline and work. .does not more 1han 6s. or 7s. out of every 804. B y Senator Gran t. --.·Do you kriow how many

£1 of capi,tal. That 1s W>hy I say there is· a big amount people in Australia own any part of it, how 1nany are /

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58

only allowed to live here on the condition pay 814. you_ seen the in bpe

their landlord regularly every Monday I do that -one -of the oWiilers ,of Austraha, named Mani­

no:t :Know the p:r-oportion, but I know that a good many_ f·old - h as beeiLgood-:-enough to . .permit some of tlwse who people have to pay re.nt for the- homes in which they went to n.gnt for Aitustralia to !Secure fo-r dairying pur-l. J}O.ses -p-ari - 61 his land -at £11 an have :read Ive. , . 1 -805. Would you be surprised to learn- that there are t-h-a·t part -of the property of Mr. Manifold ha.s been cut ,.,. more than 4 000,000 people in Australia out of a popu- up for the settlen'l!ent •of returnea S!oldiers, ·but I do not_ lation of 5,000,000 who say this is "our land," yet own know under_ wthat conditions. . - .

no part of this country1-I wo uld be surprised ·to learn 815. Do yoU; not think that if •a -returned :so·ldier, i11 that but you must take into,consideration the fact that addition. to having t-o provide food for 'him.self -and his the father of ·a family of eight may be · the only l•and- .wife and children, . h as to liquidaj;e a capital debt _of owner among them. .- . . _ . ,?17 arr •acre, with, I suppose, inter-est ..at 5. per cent., With

806. Do you not thmk that the existmg social - quarterly rents, he will have such a _mil!stone around ClitionB whereby there a r e mo re than 4,000,000 people IU his neck t hat he may rbe induced to drown lhis so•rrows ' .. who own no land is responsible, t9 a great . ir{ -man m_io'ht :find it -easier to pay £17 -alt

extent, for our military inefficiency; does -I1ot the fact acre' for land than anotb.B-r man would ·find it to-pay that men have to bring up_ :families in .crowded_ tene- £3 far " o.their land. Everything depends ,.upon tJhe p1'

of the l.1ation. When I was in Oolling'Yood I had the f·o:r .the land that they had •been -put on, ·others might school children !fie•asured at a oertain age. While the no t. -A ifi11 an might get .suc·h -a -good retuTn from 1 his land normal. death rate per - thousand for the was that he Gould easily pay the 1 purchase .price, and .h ave infants under one year of age, at - nothing to sorrow o-ver. wo uld -Tath-er

Oollmgwood It was 141. . . than do g·o·oa, whatever tthe · <;rrcumstances. _

807. that due to dn:nk ?-S_ome of wa-s, but · 816 . . Do you wonder t'hat t he .· Bolsheviks in Russia

so19-e of It due . to Ill-housrp.g ha.ve ·a:bolishe·d rent, when men who !have :heen abro-ad

are•as hke Y?U •are_ ?ound to to nglit for on their I'eturn, :find that,. instead

deterwrated In With . are:}& of being presen-ted a $mall piece ,of it, one_ of the_

Kew The ha' e own.ers :of Australia will permit them to -live here only

the ·s_tatrstws showmg that .the children In Kew ,. upon condition tlhat ..th-ey pay him £17 'an a-cr-e for his a greater guth on the . average tnan la.nd •accounts -of the !pro-ceedings of the Bols:he-

tho8s0e8InWhOolhngwo-od. ld b d-1 1

. k d viks aTe so -coil:tr,adicto:ry that II -ani not in -a position

· · ·at · wou e _ue ·o_ r nn ' a;r to· answer the uestion-;

what pe-rcentf!,ge due to the fact that 1n- _ , .·- q . . .

. stead of being able to spend her money on-food for the . _ 817: DQ.eJ.S It seem to J:"?U that men

children, has to give portion of husband's "\Vages to bo l'?- In _but o-wnmg no part -of It, volunteer

one of Melbourne's landlords TICn-ahilit.Y .to their se!'VICes for It·s 1'_-eady to make

suckle children-is a gre·at of mortality! even the ··sa-cn:fi-ce then :_ hves, •and. that ' yet

Any scienti-fic doctor will tell you if the father they they wre _unable to ·rup:e_ly then lruhour

drinks, not-necessarily to,excess, but, say, a glass or two - to the land. theyag:re_e _ to· pay sop1e1of the owners the daughter will most likely he un;•.hl e to t=iuc'kle of hke Mr. for the land they use

her chiJd beca--use her rnilk o-]ands berc·,nc non-effective. a /portiOn of t.}ie value of their .produce o.f pot'ato-es, ·Cab ­ They wi-ll also tellyou that if France has a -good vintage bages, milk,_ ,chee·se,, o! it .may ib.e, there will be a dete·riora:ted group of children in the perh.:;uJ?.s, this yea·I: year. Is this

· schpols six ye.ars afterwards. That i _ l.l th8 of t-he conditiOn of affa:_n·s t o: prevent -the vf

alcoholic poisoning' that comes down fro:>m the parents :s-?ld1e·rs m the- they

_to the children: I a gre.at nur.:J! J'l.' of of are pleased then I tJ:nnk that If retp::r:z:ed

ine:fP_ciency can be traced to the· nse not settle on land W-It-hout the pemmssmn

on 'to -the offspring, and from the offsprirus. to rhe grand- of_ M· :z:. ' or 'some ·o:ther land

children--. ment. wm,Ild he Interfer-ed wrth, •and ·the eff-ec•t on :recrmt-

. 809. Do the fathers at Collingwoo d drink more on the ing might ,be -detrimental, ihecau·se men might say, "L a·,·f'rage. than the fathers at Arnu.l:t.le and Kew?--No. do own ,a.ny land in Australia; why s'J;!.ibuld _I :fight­ unless it be due to the fact th,rt tlw1·ri no hotel ju for But am I ·to that you i;vre. trying

whereas in .there is a · hotel at- · t? asceEtain: -the land nation-aliz a-

every Important corner. . - . tlon? .

What is the. av\rage nu;mber in . a . 818. N'o; .I wish t9_ know ·whether you do not thillk

· family compared With Kew or Armadale famih€-s ?-I tlha·t ·a ,soldier who fought fo·r .Australia is not ;.... do not know. · . - . sever.ely- h.tand!cap:ped ·by · :btei111g ·required to pay Mrr.

811. Do people drmk to excess when they see drmk Man·Ifold, or some oi the other owners of Australia as C?nstantly in fr?nt _of. them ?-,They are more likely--to much ·a>s -£1 i a:n ·acre _for tiJlir -right .to wor\. ·on the Y.!\3ld to that which IS . In front of them: When are fo:r which he has fought. Must not tlti:S'ha:ve -'a retal'

them they will go In_. and roo-re they whiCh ltamd _was -repatri-ation would

because of the shoutn:g h ab1t, wherea§ If there be detrimerrtally affected. ·But I understand that there

·were no hotel at all there they would not go into one. under the -cont rol -of the- autho:rities of the Oommon-81?. What is there. about beer that makes it so at- wealth -and ·of.

_Do y;ou consider t

1 hat the . . _ of Th1s woul.d · :re:patnatwn, and would tend to- tihe

returned soldiers will he the ·o.f th,e· countTy while no OtJJe

m them. upon the lar:rd returned would .

1be . lllJured. I do not thfnk ·that the ,only-:-land

,

who 1s a drmke: will n ot he efficrent a op v;n h wh men ·can he settled is the land rnow i

1i posse3-

and .wrll n_ o-t develop land so well,- ·as -one who l'S not SlOn .of p-a·rticular land-ow:nens. I would make gifts of a dnnkg.r. land to returned soldier's as ·a .rewaTid fryr their .services.

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59

819. It ·is a ·.tediol!JS and costly thing to acquire land £17 an acre . .f01r land ars had ?-I do not

. "by :balloting unrder .:tih'e State laws. Hundreds ef men th:i:nk it -:can he. Sraid th·at Australians haVIe a rhabit of h§,_ve years to ..... _ thus obtain land, rand in vain. paying men like• rthe -¥ ·ani£olds _£17 an ;acre for land. If pro;vision were mad-e by thre States wliereby the r S'Ollif 'Dhe -drinking of intoxicants, howe;ver, irs a habit with of farmers and rotheDs, who ra:re desirous and m_any. rPro1 pe1·ty ii1 land is Jegaliz.ed. -·of .·s·ettlij1:g on land, could it easily ·and ·cheruply, · 830. So i·s the rhabit of dTinkirng1-Tihe 1sale rof liquor

would not tnany li·gh-t ·po·sitionsin cities, t:owns, and ;vil-- in hotels is ;by the law. I do not thirnk .that tages become ;and _occupation fq:r re:: -re,c:ognitiorr :Of the .private of land is :rightly

turned soldi:@r,s ?-T•hat r Sihou1d he ·the - terme'd ra haibit. I .

820. Do mot the pres,ent land laws ,affect returned mm1 . 831. You cannot ten me iJhe ·Ca1 sh V!alue of ·t:he liquor .moTte detriment__ally ·than the ha·bit o.f drinkinrg rbeer' or_ trade ?-N·o; hut I think you ·C!O'Ulid get th:e in£ormatjon . spirits to excess, which a limited nlNilJher ·Of t-hem n.a;ve fro.nl" the Oommo:nwealth Statirstician.: acquired ?----1I do not rela-tion rbetween the tw:o 832. Ha!S your or_ganization, the Proh£bitio·n _

subj,ects. If you .place men ·On the away from hranche.s in all the States ?-Yes .

.cities, with their attendant dang:ers; and give them :smt- 833. Gan you tell ·me its membership ?-No. It ·cam:e . able.Qc

this. I -:of T·epatnatwr establi,shed- ·in the different 8ta:tes, and WJe have

which would- not 'pro;vide £or it. . - - ·. · O'l;r g·a:n.izers at wo:rk, a[nd publish a newspa:pe'r. OuT

821. Do you thirrk that it _w;ould he a_:go?d thwg. fr oT membership is steadily increasing. -returned s:oldiers and ,other c1t1zens :tro be g1ven sectwns · 834. You lraVIe hera:rd iJhat ·WJell-·to-do people like ·the - of good lamd niOw: £ormirng part ·of the millions r orf . Manifo1drs, who get large---.sums of money £.rem others _ of- Crown -land u;n.drer the contr·ol of the St·ate autJhon- who work £or them, have ceUars well - sto·cked with . - ties iS- what I would wines, spirits,---:and beerl·=-I dro not know that the Marn1-

822. Wlould y,ou fa'Vlour the· free importation of folds have su0h cella:rs. making good the consequent loss of revenue by 835. I merely u:Se th0. n rume to signify those who oo·m­

ba:x:ing- the JYiarni£olrds ·of Aus,tr;ilia?_._I favour the pi"o- pel tJhe ,s,oldier.s .0f Austr·alia to pay them far land ibefare hjbition of the importation rof liquor. -. alLowing them to worrk - om it: "In your opinion, do these

823. Trhat would mean a loss of revenue of £3,000,000 pel'I&OilliS, who have ·l.aTge oellars; drink to excess, .and do -- -No; only of £600,000, according to Sir John Forresf. their wives -rand f·amilies do so ?-..:-It would illot he fair W-ould Y·OU be ·agreeable to the _to generalize from one or two instanges. The members

and other -of Austraha ·to -make of ·some such families a:s J!OU refer to have come-to

"reven:ue ·lo·st, 'and t'o provide land for -tho:se wiiliil:g to · d::ink, hut o·th:ers 'ha;ve not. -· Simila·rly in farn1i-. work ·on · it, particularly returned soldiers ?-I have _ hes 1n wh-1ch the father sends to the corner hotel for a sta-ted that is rs.pending .ail.Tl!ually £20,000,000 pot 'Of beer each day,_therre a·re Cihildflen who ­ on-drink: If the S'a-le, importation, and malllufacturre· of take to drink, and others who become the strongest

liqu_ or· were .p-rohibited, tha.t .amount would 'be _ -saved, advQcrates· ternpera:rwe. . - - .

and I do not think the fie would be any nood f1or tJhe taxa- .

tion thafyou speak -of. .. Can you give us any idea of the number of per-

825. You think that- the expenses of sons With. well-stocked cellars -who have come to grief?

be reduced if drinking eeased ?-Yes. _While· the ,-I can gi;ve you no reliable on that point.

gets a ceJrtain 1amournt ·of 'flevenue fr.om 837. I supp0se you know /a considerable number of

duties intoxicating liquo·rs·, much m•ore .spen·t in eases in which the owners of well-stocked cellars with _ deaHng with evils ·which are by ;the liquorr ) heir wi;ves and famil!es, not come ·to grief?­

traffic. It is this traffic -tlhat is 're·spo'llJsible fur muC!h 1 of Th-e·re are such cases. - Vhe ·eX})enditur·e ·on 1 potice, on lunatic and in 838. Would you be in fa;vour of a cond-ition of affairs o;;her ways, and, in additi·on, there is the loss to . the - under which a well-stocked cellar would he at' the dis­ Btat-e ·of lives marred by--drink. T;his expenditure and .posal of every-ordinary workm.an. Do you think that

loss 'represent a sum much larger than £3,000,000. In 1t would be dangerous soldier who is going to pay ·my opini·orn, 'the State-would ga.in, than lo-se, -if £17 an acre for the ·right to liw in-Aust:r:alia-> to have a alF drinking wer·e stopped. • - · ,. · cellar well stocked with wines and heer?-I do not see

826. Alnd it wo-uld n:ot /he :ne-cessarry to tax the Mani- - _how I can answer that question, beyond saying that I , folds to get revel}.ue?-No. an abs·olutely opposed to the sale, manufacture and im-

827. Do you. ·trhink that if the dri1.1k traffic portati?J. of intoxicating liquor. ' .

abolished returned soldiers, and the public generally ' - 8'39. Would it he more· dangerous for the returned would undersrtnind and d-eal wiiJh tlie fa·r ·greater evil soldi'er or for the -:o rdinary workman- to ha;ve a well­ that op-presse us in ha;ving the l!Ianifolds arid others stocked cellar .than for the la:Q.dlords ?-It is a danger o:wning Australila ?-=-I think that the abolition ·uf ilhe fur BOrne landlords to have a well-stocked cellar- ana it drink traffic would create a :fine'l'. citizenship, and that " would be an dange•r for some returned .

abuses generally would be moT'-e, intelligently and e:ffec- for solUie ordinary workmen, but I cannot sa:v that t_iv·ely dealt with.- _ 1t wonld be mrore Clangerous for so ldiers as a whole. or

828. W1 hat rare the :financi!al int'eTests .irnv.olved in the for the- wqrking men as a whole, than for the dxink ·t:r:a}fic in Australia ?-it be to as a whole. I think drink is evil to all.

estimate tlhe :fu::uancial interests irnv·olved 'by 'an exa·mina- By Lt.-Colonel Bolton.-Would you consider it tion of the !Statistics ·regarding the n:umlber -of perrsons fa1_r that men who, by- reai:!on of the dreadful conditions employed, .and the · ca.pital in;vested" in the various to which they haV!e been subjected, are not quite normal breweri,es, distil1ei'i·es,' hio'tels, and the like, ·or by the should be put ou Orow·n to do hea;vy

capita-lization ·of·the ·annual expenditure drink. T1 hts pwneermg work ?-No. I do not think they would be expenditure is- rJt dpes. not assist indus- fit for such work. -:: The Go;vernment would. make land

tries whi,ch support ·1Jhe ·oommunity: It merely grat:l·fi:es i

829. Do- sou ·rega'l'ld rboth the haibii rof rd:rinkirng a.nd would have none of t he comforts or convenien oos of . tJhe lh:vbit ·of rpaying men like th1 e life.

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60

I

841. Crown land should be made ready for them to k f • d 1 1't d t' I 't ta e possesswn o It an to_ ma \:e repro uc 1ve .-Yes. I

854. Would 1 any of the first .and second class hotels­ sell over-proof liquor ?-Yes; because some persons de­ mand it. To some drinkers a weak spirit would seem insipid. It would not tickle· their ·palate sufficiently.

J3 55. But they do not lay out to se_ll such

spirit whereas in the third-class hotels a ce1·ta1n per-

-Michael Gubbens Rocher, Senior Inspector of Liqtl_or, centage of the publicans do so ?-Yes. To bring a :man Board Health (and Trade and Customs.), Mel- into a good spending humom', publicans will SOI!letlmes bourne, s.worn and examined. give him .strong and big nobblers. This is

842. By the Ohairman.-Are you' a Federal or a done in hotels kept by goo_ d-l<;>o ing _womep., who ad as State Ofl:icer?-I have FedeDal duties to .perform, but.. decoy ducks. _

1 am paid by the State. Do you thirik that most of the mischief done to

- 843. Your duty is to e·xamine liquor ?-That is one soldiers is done in that class _ of hotel ?-It js caused by of my duties. tb.e selling of liquor of too great strength.

844. As a customs official you examine all the liquq_r 857. If liquor o£ less strength were sold, would the that is Yes; after it has been cleared- from mischief cease ?_:_Drunkenness would considerably

bond. decrease.

845. We, as citizens, cannot fail to notice that some 858. What do you mean by a sly-grog shop ?-An of •Our out-going and some of our returning soldiers fall unlicensed place in which liquor is sold. /They are often uncle·r the influence of drink. _ Do you think that the run by harpies for the spoliation of soldiers. Generally aduiteratio.n of liquor is largely responsible fo..r that?- a man and woman work in conjunction. .

Within the· last :fifteen years there has bE;e!l no o! 859. Are the sly grog-sellers severely dealt with if

adulteration proved in_Victoria, though there liave been discovered ?-Not sufficiently. I have. known -sly grog-/ oa,S!8S in which persons have been· convicted of selling sellers· to give yogng fellows 1nethylated spirits) and liquor ·of au inferior· brand under the style -of a better these, after ·a day's carouse, :would be ill for a week, and brand. I take samples of liquor consumed throughoQt ··under medical treatment. The drinking of methylated

Victoria, and have it analysed. spirit!3 incites to violence of all kinds.

846. Then the statement that some- of the ill-effects 860. Sly grop shops are a cui'se ?-Yes. For twenty-which have been noticeable ;are the result of the sale of :five years I had the _.supervision o_f the suppression of adulterated liquor is incorrect?-Yes, so_ faras it ap- them. " - - - .

plieB to licensed places. We have no supervision over 861. Do they still exist?'--They are more numerous the sale of liquor in sly-grog shops. The liquor sold in than ever. · .

licel}.sed places may all be of very good quality, but 862. What steps would you take to, suppress them?­ it iB free from . actual adulteration. We ex·amine liquor . I would imprison both the' vendors of liquor in such­ at the breweries, at the vineyards, at the distilleries, and places and the habitues, and ,..... would · the

at the wholesale .merchants. Hundred,s of samples at·e ·premises. That would make owners more careful of analysed. Prior :to fifteen years liquor radulterated -tlieir tenants. /

with tobacco, Indian hemp, vitriol, and :other ,.things w·as · 863. What do you mean by -quarantine ?-1: wotild-s,old, but not_ now. There are, however, many con vic- treat the- premises just , as they would be treated if a tions for selling low-class spirits as high-class spirits. - case of S:J?lall-pox or bubonic plague wete discovei'ed in 847. Is low-class spirit more injurious than high- them. I would prevent people from going in and out dass spirit?-Yes. _ of them. ·

Its tendency is to make a n1.an drunk For how long?-T-hat should be at the ·discre-

quic:k·ed-Yes. _ Certain properties, such as fusel-oil tion of the Bench. -- -

and the aldehydes, he remqved only with age. · 865. At present I offenders are merely :fined?

849. Would the low-class liquor, that yov. speak of, -Yes, and, on a second conviction, imprisoned. become high class in: time ?-It would n ever become 866. You would allow no option ?"'-Tnat is so. At 'high class, because of the material froni which it is present when a man is discovered selling liquor in un­ made. You canno.t make a silk purse out of a s.ow's -registered premises he .often vanishes before he_ can be - taken before the Bench, and some one else takes his

A 50, ·would it hecome better in time?-Yes; better, place, the peT son who is reaping the pr_o:fi-t -remaining but not good. A great ·cause of drunkenne,ss among unseen. Soldiers are lured· into these places, and · any­ _soldiers is the selling of liquor of t·oo -great a strength . . -thing ·can be sold to them /there. I,iquor is sold here rat wh,at is called proof ·strengt-h, / 867. Ar-e you of opinion that ·it ·is a small per­

. which mean,s,- roughly speaking, half - wa;ter -and half centage of our soldiers vy-ho give way to drink ?-Yes, alcohol. Two glasses of proof whisky would Inake- a it is my perso.ntJJ observatiOI}. that .the pereentagv man very stupid, would put him out of action. is decreasing. ' ·

851. May such liquor be· sold at .licensed houses?- 868. Why?-The · licensed · hotelkeepers are ·-i n Yes. is no maximum, though t4ere is a minimum: terror-em of being prosecuted for _harbouring .drunkeD Wbisky may not be sold .at more than twenty-five btJlow soldiers on premises. As I have said, there is no proof, but it can be sixty over proof. Unscrupulous maximum strength for spirits, which c·an be sold at

vendors sell strong spirit in order to -get rtheir customers - 60 overpoof; but they must not be sold weaker than "going," and thus to induce·them tv spend their money 25 · underproof. I . would reduce the minimum by 10 freely. . degrees, making it 35 underproof. . _ -

852. That occurs even in licensed houses?-Yes. Senator Grant.-'-Would you reduce the price

853. I understand that there are fairly good hotels is ·a ·matter for the publicans to

and lower hotels ?-There are three classes bf settle with their customers. Lager beer is now sold at a

hotels; ho.tels like Menzies', Scott's: and other;, which strength o.f .about. 4 P'er cent. prroo.f ..;spirit, and . cater for an_ expensive trade; respectable comme·rcial colpnial beer at. a st.rength of from 8 to 10

hotels, ,,rhere honest, good liquor is sold; and 1 a third per cent. proo.f spirit. I would make' no alte:ra-class of hotels whose trade is chiefly '9eer sold to artisans, / tion in regard to. lag-er hee.r, which' is of the same' -lahoure·rs, and other members of the working classes. I strength as German lager, hut I would reduce the have had forty-seven years' experience of the liquor stre1;-1:rth otdinary. beer to 5 per cent. proof

.traffic, and there has been a great improvement during sp1nt. That 1s qmtJe a s.uffiment strength for keeping ' the last decade. · . purposes, and would be less intoxicating than , the

' -

6.1 - • .::

present -, The of bad 88 0. By 1t."Oolonel .Bolton.-Do yo:u think that th.e

wines is causing a lot of drunkenness among soldiers. nati,on ·could attend to. ,the .of the war

With a few .exceptions, like the ·establishments of Hans _ and thte repatriatio:n ·of- its :returned. soldiers if total Irvine, the colonial wine shops ar1 e mos_ tly for boys. abstinence were the rule?-Total abstmence would cer­ They ·employ so-realled barmaids, and· are frequented tainly he better than drinking excess. Hut I think _ by prostitutes, and they sell to their customers strong that tloo 1 a caus:es disc.O!Il'tent. - With

sweet wines i;n big ·glasses. li. lot of the liquor is up to n1!o,cJ.:era·tion, men a< re contented. .

35 per cent. proof spirit; that is, it is nearly five times 881. Do you think ·thwt ·drinking decl1ea:S'es our .p:O.wer:s as .strong as beer. :Nioreover, the wine is generally very of .o:ffe1l!ce and .de£ence in t1his wa·r ?---1.I think that drink­ new: Under the Customs regulations, raw spirit may ing toe:x:cess decreases the individual's powers _.o;f 81Ildur-be added to preve nt second fermentation; but this an·ce, though a little drink may do ·§Ood. · .makes the drink more int..gxicating. ·I look on the 882. Weighing the adVIanta.ges 1 0.£ drink · the

' colonia! wine shops as . up.mixed evils. evil,s tha·t it do:es, the ·crime arnd m1sery that it causes,

- do you think that tihe reteruti,o:n .of the drink traffie is

870. By th:e Chai1·man.-Some years ago, in South- justified think that if is kept in co;r1trol

- Australia, I hear

··six months old, fortified with strong spirit distUled 883. But y·ou say that sly-grog 1 selling is _

from the, lees . of. the grape. - They are allowed by the -Y e.s. Irn, certain loCJalities there aTe sporadic out­ Customs _!eglilations· to f0rtify it up to 40 _ per c-ent. of br:ea·ks. Fifteern yerurs ag1o, at Mt. William, ·a:nd again proof spirit. - ..r at was so much tl"oruble that we came

871. Is that kind of wine sold in Victoria it to the ·COnclusi·on ·that th:e working ·man. will ihave •his is sold in MelbourQ.e. 1 In the Yallee it is known as beer wh,en employed 1 on :railwaJlS ·or in mine,s, ·o:r o.r1 "lunatic- soup," · because it drives drinkers off their la:I"ge public wo·rks. ,

heads. · . 884. Is there illic:iit tradi,ng i111 m'ethyhted

872. Are/ you of opinion that some of our soldiers get spirits at .chemists' :shops ,and other ,,places?-- I ihave , intoxicated with it ?-Yes; I have seen tnem in shops in heard of it, an-d I known :s.old_ iers to get Melbourne at the mercy of harpies that run these s:pirits in sly::-gro1 g ,shops. Tib!01se who- drink me-thylated -places. My suggestion, is that dry wine be. sold at' a spirits have sometimes :to 1he :put into ·sti'aight-j fuekets, or strength of not m0re than 15 per cent. proof spirit, and - into padded :rooins, or'·to have •morphia injected to keec

sweet wine at a strength of not more1than 25 per cent. them quiet. _

The greater stre;ngth is required for sweet wine, because, - 885. W10uld you 1 say 1iliat the d:r:inking methy­ unless fortified, a secon-d fermentation will turn it to l_ ated . ·spirits - haJs .since . the im!p:o:f!t·ation O>f vinegar:.. has deerea;sed ?-M•etJhY.lated s;piri·t'S tare cheap,_

873. Ar:e the wine shops licens,ed ?-Yes. There are · hecau:se the·re is a v1 ery low druty on · them, and the 57 -in Melbourne·-and suburbs. Of course, there are re- - met1 hyl maroes them But in so·me !pl&c:es ·a spectable wine shops. - ma11 will ,ask, for a " wi1 th _a da'sh in it,"

- 874. And good colonial wine ?.:_Yes. There are a and ·tihe sweetnes·s of gingetr-:b:eetr will disguise the nu:rp.ber of go,od wine unde-r the name of Hans taste of the methyl sufficiently to enable the drinker to Irvine and Company, apd other·s, in whioh -none but .. keep· do·w:n the mixture. I have known the oost wine is kept, and the strictest order is main- po1isiher ·to he in ·the :habit of drinking methylated ta.ined. In those they would not sell to a man ·spirits freely. . After 'a time, the lining ·of the t:hroat

with the slightest sign of liquor on him, and only men and 1 stomach be·co:inets .so affec:ted :by the drinking tO'f ar·e .employed in them . . When ·a woman goes ill.tO, this strong :spirits tJha:t .ordima:ry 'spirits cea·s·e t·o he ;palat­ tfla.de it is ofte,n a woma'n of the a1 ble. The di"in:King •of methyhted ·spirit& is 1 an acquired

875. By Senator Grant.-,There are a good. many taste. .lt 'brings 'On violent vom:iJting with tlho·se who are exceptions, I take it /ar·e exceptions, but a not to it.

numbe·r of the.se _e.Iace;;, are run l;>·y harpies. The 886. Do hi:nk t!hat the li'quor traffic :needs

p1ag1strates have been clearing them out during :the last r·estriction, and corrtrol than it gets at pre­ year or two. sent ?-A _part of it does. W:itth :r:ega:rd to early-

-do1 sin,g law, I SOtm1e -puibli.eans 'Oihserv:e it 'strictly, but otihers hre1ak through it. The w01rking man looks £o1r his b:eer ,afrtJer 6 ·o'clock, a.nd if :he oa:runot get -it, is dis- _, satci.·sfi·ed. I ·t is harrd for 1of ·the !hotels to make a living UIJ.ld>er the 6 o'clo·ck c1o:sin:g The ·sell­

ing ·of liquor under ISU'pel'V'ision in prr.oper h·o-ur.s is a much__ sa:Der thing fo:r the :public ·1Jhan tihe se1li1 ng of it . hehind closed do·ors.

876. By t'he Ohairman.-Would you prefer that the public should- get good wine rather_ than spirits ?-I would not allow spirits to be sold to so ldiers. I would give them only light beers and light wines. -· / -

877. You are a prohibitionist in the matter of spirits? -Yes,- so far as soldiers are cpncerned. A well-kept canteen in the camps, in whiqh only light wines and beers were sold, lessen ·drunkenness. I would bar

s'pirits. · in. the because they create an appetite

for drmkmg. I hve·d m barracks for some years. Drunk­ enness was very rare there. There may have been one or two cases, but those responsible were looked on with contempt. I was in. the Royal Artillery· here in 1871. ·

878. What wa1 s the pay then ?-:-A gunnel' got 2s. a day, with boa:rd and lodging, unifo'rm 1mderclothing amd hoots. I think tJhaj:.'now 6s. a day is the With a ·Canteen tihere is always a rron-·conn.miss:Uon·ed offi­

cer in chta;rge, who ca:q ·re£use to 'seT:ve 1any man who has taken too much. . ·

879. What would ha ppHn if ·an officer ca:me in cers ·QO not renter t:he men's 0antem1 j they have their OWn mess.

I

887. By Senator Grant.---

are 1a'D gely Gffi"m:an ai1d Dutch spirits, di,stilled fr,om r:efwse 1 g'raiu, ;beetT1o,ot, pota·toes, and other vegeba,ble fer­ ments. T:heir is, muCih cheaper than the di s­

tillatio:n of good spirits from malt and .sugar. 888. The best spirits are clistilled ,from ?-Yes· .tJh.at is, Bramdy i n made f:;om wine, and

from mola·sses. The 'i'V'hite came mostly

Germa'lly, ·at a .strength of 60 ·overp:Doof. Their dis­ tJilling wrus V'ery 'Scienitific, they c'Ould

beat the Bn'tlJSh oult of t he market. This wili.ite had no flav•ou:r, ny the UJdclition of res·serwes ·could be m·ade bo j·e<;emb le or other· dri'Ylk s.

•

889 . .Y,ou heard ·of the spirit that wars distilled at ilhe coinc~rtrati,on camp a't Holdsw01ruhy, New Bou uh W1aleis, . which ma,die tJhois,e that {lirnnk it 1r oa;r E1e ,bulls ?~I unde11stand ·that they idistiHed ,some ,erude spiri1t tlhe-re.

At Pentri,dge, ,on • Onie ,occa1Sio1J1, ,spirit was di,stilled by means ,of a kettle. 89 0. If spirit were 1 s,old ·at 1a weaker strength wo·~E the vie:n d,o,r.s makie a :bigger 1 proi:frt ?-Yes, beoaus,e wa te,r cios·ts :priae-ti,ciaHy n,01thio:ig, arnd ,spirits 1 have :r~sen very

largely in price. Iri ,some ca:ses the irncrease in price ha'S _ iheen as D?-Ucili. · rus 100 :per. cien t. -891. Has the quantij;y of drink s-old in Melbourne decreased since i he public _ houses have been required to close at 6 o'clock ?-Yes.

892. On what do you base that opinion ?_.:The hotel­ keepers have to make returns of their sales for the, asses­ sing of their licence-fees. They also make statements to me. Then we_ know the sales of the sp_ irit merchants . .

893 . Has the consumption of both spirits and beer been reduced ?-The consumption of beer has not been reduced. Since spirits have increased in price many pers1ons have taken to beer becau~e it is cheaper.

894. Has the consumption of beer decreased since the 6 o'clock qlosing of hotels.?-! think that it has in­ creased. I shall furnish the exact :figures. In some cases it has doubled.

895. Is that because of: its con uinption after hours? -There are hotels, such as Young and Jackson's, the two Champions', and Connel's, where they do not sell a glass of beer after 6 o'clock in the evening, but. their

trade has increased. 896. Is it correct to .~ay that while the consumption of draught beer has decreiased the consumption of bottled beer has increased ?-Yes; especially in sly-grog shops. In one case 100 dozen bottles were taken out for a Sunday's consump;tion. ·

897. Do the brewers supply the sly-grog shops?­ N ot_ directly. 989. How do the sly-grog sellers get their beer 1-Througb the sp ·rit merchants, grocers, and hotel­ keepers. Tbe brewers have· all declined to suppl'y the sly-grog shops.

899. How many sly-grog shops are there in Mel­ bourne ?-It is impossible to say, bec,ause they ·are sly­ grog shops. But I helievie, ,that there are from eighty to 100 in Carlton, Fitzroy, and Collingwood, but' chiefly in Fitzroy. I have heard that they sometimes make £40

on a Saturday afternoon and Sunday. They need onlv rent a shanty of two or three rooms. ~

900. • Are these pLaces much f;equented . by · &.oldiers? - Yes. The people who run :them send out touts, liargely girls, who meet them in or about the hotels. 901 . How many wine shops are there in Melbourne?

-I shall supply that information. '. 902. ·Do you think that shouting should be sup~

pressed ?-·-I have n:othing to guide me in forming an op inion; . but I do not think that too much legislation of tha.t kind is good. It will get to be " more honoured in the bre,ac.h than in the observance. '' I understand t,hat at, some of the smaller 1cl ubs where it is a_gainst the rule, foy a strange,r to pay, a. visitOII" will sometimes pass a coin to a member to pay for him. ~

903. By Lt.-Colonel Bolton,::::._lt would be diffi cult to put into force an anti-shouting law ?-Yes. 904., By Senator Grant.-You are · opposed to such legislation ?-Yes. Harsh, interfering leO'islation

brin g.s about its own defeat. ,.

0

905. You have heard of soldiers having a "shout round" ?--Yes, a "tarpaulin muster" they call it. 906. Men ar·e thus induced to take -more than they ean conveniently carry or de,Sire ?-Yes.- - .

907. Do you regard shouting as injuriouf;?-Ym1.

62 · /

908. Then do you not think -that iegislation against it should be enacted ?-It would b~ experimental legisla­ tion about which I could hardly o:ffor an opinion, though I am opposed to too much interfarence of this kind ..

909. How are beer~ and spirits tested ?-Samples are taken from breweries, distilleries, vineyards, wine shops, spirit merchants, stores a,and other p1aces. One part is given to the vendor, ,another one retained by the Board of Health, and the third is analysed. _

9 .10. Are spirits ,tasted as tea is tasted ?-Tasting is one of the tests, but it takes three or four days to pro­ perly test the composition of a bottle of whisky. 911. Do you know the value of the breweries; hotels, and ot her forms of investment connected with the drink trade ,in Victorial-I cannot give you that information now. I know that onie brewery ,spent £50,000 on im­ provements within the last six months, to meet the Indian marlret . . It got an order from India for 46,000 cases.

912. Do you think that men returned from the Front are likely to settle down better if they are placed be­ y.and reach of intoxicants ?-If it were, possible t o wean them, they WJOuld be more content.

913. Do you think that there is any way ofil weaning them except by removing drink from their vicinity. Is there any way of giving them .self-restraint ?-I do not know of any. When men have .the habit, and ar'e"re­

moved from temptation, I think that they are likely to break out at intervals, like the old-timie-- shearers, who every six months or so " blued their cheques" in 3: big carouse. •

914. Is there any way of demethy la ting spirits ?-:-You cannot remove the methylation, but you can make methylated spirit potable by disguising the taste. 915. Is the process generally known ?-It i s kept ·a secret 1aniong chemists. Some twenty-five years ago I prosecuted a German J ew in Collingwood who was using

a vegetable essence for this purpose. 916. Could he disguise the flavour so effectively that the methylated spirit would pass as g:ood brandy or whisky ?-No; it was very crude spirit; but h~ could sell it ,at a good profit.

917. By Senator Buzacott.-Is there a standard for wine ?-Sweet wine may be fortified up to 3 5 per cent. proof spirit, and dry wine up to 28 per cent. 918. Would the soJcalled " pinky " and " lunatic soup" wines become good if allowed to mature ?-They

would improve by befog kept longer, but spirit is added to them to prevent further fermentation, and this makes them more intoxicating. They only pay 6d. ,a gallon-for fortifying spirit. · ·

919. If the wine had been kept for a certain number of ye,ars there would be no danger?_. No. . 920. But it is often sold before it has matured?­ Yes.

921. By the Chairman.-Arf:l there. sly-grog shops at Brighton, Kooyong, Toorak, and in 'places like those ? -No. The residents there kee,p their demijohn, or cask, o·r other supply, where they take spirits or beer :

( Taken at Melbourne.)

F:;RIDAY, 8TH FEBRUARY, 1918. Present: Sernator THOMAS (Chairma~); Senator Grant, I Senator Buzacott.

Senator Lt .-Col. Bolton, Senator Colonel Rlowell, William Booker Vance, Medical Practitioner, Com­ manding Officer No. 11 Australian General Hospital, Oaul:field, sworn and examined. _

922.· By the Chairman.-Have you been aw:ay from Australia with our troops ?-No; niy experience is con· fined to Australian soldiers in this country.

.,

923. How mauy patients have peen through your hands at the Caulfield Hospit1tl i-Last year, from . the 1st January to the 31st December, 9,676. -

924. · Oan you say if drink affects invalided soldiers-to any extent ?-Yes, very much indeed, because if a man takes drink while under treatment he does not make satisfactory progress.

925. Do you find that a certain number -0f the men manage to get iritoxicant liquors while under treatment? __,_A certain proportion do. Last year I had 91 men up before me at the orderly-room on charges of drunken­ ness, but ithat number did not include all the soldiers

who had taken drink while under treatment. Quite a ' large number of men ab.Rent without leave were also "on the burst." They told -me they "Yere ashamed of themselves, and preferred to get sober before they came back ,to the hospital. ·

926. What do you do when they return ?-They are brought up on a charge of being absent without leave, · and are punished accordingly. .

9 27. In your opinion, does drink seriously affect the progress of patients ·?- Yes; it retards their recovery. 928. Do ,some of the men who go away from the hos­ pital . on leave return within the time specified the worse for liquor ?-Yes. ·

929. Are those men a source of annoyance to other patients ?-No. They do not get a ,chance t·o annoy;: the others, because they are taken in hand at once and put in the H cJink "-otherwise the lock-up. We find that

the men who take to drink are, 1 as· a rule, of a low~r rn;entality than the others. 930. I suppose that a good number of the patients are total abstainers?- I think so ; but I could not say, as there is no classification in this respect. ·

931. If a man is a t ot al abstainer, would he recover more quickly than a man who is accustomed tn drink? -There is not the slightest doubt about that. .As ::i. medical man, I can tell tne Committee that a total ab-s tainer will stand disease very much better than ,1 . man

who is in the habit of taking alcohol. 932. Even if taken moderately ?-Well, who is to de­ fine "moderately"? A tablespoonful of Rpiri.ts would be -like poision to some men, while others c0ulcl 1 perhaps, take half-a-dozen tablespoorisful without fee]i,u~ any ill­ effects fr.om it. But a glass of beer, if taken with· food,

would not be harmful ·one · way or the other, though-it w,ould be just as well for a person to Wiait until later in life, ,when, perhaps, this stimul,ant would be needed and might then be beneficial. 1 .

933. I take it that if you had you:r'"'way the men would not be able to get drink at all ?-That is correct: 934. Have y,ou any suggestion to help ,the Committee in arrivjng at a conclusion to overcome this difficulty?­ There is not the, slightest doubt that it is impossible to

differentiate between the g-eneral public and the ·soldiers in any legislation dealing with the drink traffic . As medjcal officer for ,the Oaul:6.efd Hosp-ital at aii ca-rl;v stage I ,caused all ·hotels and wine shops to be put out of bounds for s,oldiers, but that did not stop the con­ sumption ,of drink in the slightest, be0ause if a soldier

w.anted it hE: simply got a civilia11 to go out a:nd buy it for him. In some cases men paid as much as 5s. to a civiliar.L to go tc :an hotel fo1· a bottle of whisky. ..{\..ny legislation- to deal with t.he drink traffi55 must apply equally all round.

935. Do you think that the evil is so great that the. general public ·should be included, as well as the soldiers, in this class of legislation ?-Absolutely, yes . -936. By Senator Grant.~On what do you base your statement that recovery is more difficuit in the case of .a man1who drinks moderately than in the case of a man

who jg a total .abstained-On my 25 years' experience ­ RS ,a medical practitioner. ·

' 937. Have you kept records of · total ,abstainers?­ N o; but I have had a very large practice in Melbourne durip.g the last 25 years.

63

938. _ What do you. mean when yqu say that men who tab~ drink an of a lower mentality than those who do . ruot?-I mean that they are the type ·on:nen more ea·sily led, to start Wiith. We are all familiar with tnis class of man. . As a rule, the better type of our soldiers will not touch drink ;at ·all. ·

939. Would you regard a DJian who takes a glass ~ ith -his dinnel' as being more easily led than the man whf.i -· does not take liquor with his meals ?-=Nio. When I

speak ,of men of a lo wer mentality, I :miea:n, generally speaking, meri who ,tah liquor to excess . .. W 6 hav8 found these men in the hospitals. -,

- 940. Would they inchtde in that class the 91 cases you had before you last year on charges of drunkenness? ~Yes, together with the men who were absent without leave through being "on the spree.' "'

941. Do you think that drink is valuable in certain cases of .sickness ?-Yes, because it is- a food that i s easily burnt, and, therefore, might carry a patient over a critical time. _ ·

942. Would you be in favour of 9omplete · prohibitio_ n · during the currency ,of war ?-Yes, absolutely, and for everybody,. either in regard to the sale or manufaoture. 943. I take it that your experience leads you to the

conclusion that so long as civilians can get drink they -will be good enough for a consider.ation, and sometimes without a oonsideration, to supply it t;o soldiers; and, that being so, the invalided soldier,s are retained longer in the hospital, because their recovery has been re-tarded. Is that so ?-Absolutely. •

- 944: I gather from your experience th.at you think the drink is of no g01od to the soldiers at all ?-That is so, absolutely. .

945. _Are you in favour of wet canteens ?-No. · 946. By Senator Buzacott.-Seeing that you .are in favour of prohibition, havb you g~ven any considera­ tion 3JS to what it would mean, and how it w:ould dis­ locate business ?~No; that is no,t my business as medi­ cal officer. I can o·nly suggest what I t.hink is .advis-able. _ .

947 . Seeing that. then• iR very little - probability of prohibition being secured, do you think an anti-shouting la'\V would minimize the drink evil ?-Yes . . 948 . Do you ,think that civilians are responsible for a large amount of drinking on tbe part of our soldiers? -I am .absolutely sure of it. 949 . By Senator Colonel Rowell.-I suppose we may take it for granted that you are a total abstainer?-1 nm not; but I do not drink. -950. Have you had any experience in ,the Australian Military Forces apart from your connexion with the Department during the ·war?-Yes, I was medical officer t·o the For,ces for nineteen years. 951. I ...suppose you have had some experience of wet and dry canteens ?-Yes. 952 . Then, do you think it would be bettBr to es~ab­J'ish a wet canteen, and have it under proper military control, than to have dry canteens and allow men to get drink outside the camps; thus causing many to break their leave ?--No, I do not think so. 95r~. HaYe you noticed ~ an improvement among the soldiers ,vho are returning as compared with those who went away in the earlier stages of the war ?-I had rnry little to do, from EJ. medical stand-point; with men who left .Austra)ia, though I was ion H~ad-Quarters Staff as Acting .P.M.O. But,, with tihe exception o.f .a · f.ew hundr,eds, all those who have, returned sinoe, 1915 have passed through my hands either at the, Caulfield or No. 5 Hospita,l. . 9 54. Have you anythir;g to 1mggest for the control of the drink . traffic ?--I would like to say that, for a short tj1ne after 6 o'clock closing came into force, there was ·.a decided imprnw~ment -noticeable among the men in the Caulfield Hospital, but things are now. worse than bef9re the 6 ·o'dock closing· became law. Prior ,to the .. _ early closing proclamation beer was the .chief drink

64

now it is whisky, which is introduced into tJae hospital . 965. does not the practice .of giving nien uight.ly hy visitors, who -bring flat flasks, which are easily con- and week-end leave from ·camps loeated near •towns and cealed in p·ockets or clothing. W:e find that the momen cities throw them into associations which lead to a great are t.he ;;vorst offenders in this respect. They simply . deal of this trouble ?--I think it is advisab1e to give put a pint flask of in their blouses or bags, mmi leave. If t.he autp.orities are to ge.t 'the' best out of

srnuggle it in to the patients. Before 6 o'clo-ck closing the;m they must be co_ntented. . If ·a man gets and was the law, we rarely found _these flasks in the comes -hack the worse for liquor, be should be pumshed. hospital ground·s, but now they are th{) commonest kind but if all the men in military camps were treated dif­ of. receptacle picked up. It would be a good thing if ferently from civilians, they would feel that they

the Ggvernment absolutely prohibited the use ·of these a grievance. It must not b§ forgotten also that soldiers flasks, which are so e.asily coneealed about the person. haye votes, and that members ·6f Parliament- are ready enough to watch over their interests if is a sus-

955. Is not your . statement rather an argument , pjeion that they are dealt with unjustly.

against 6 o'cloek closing?-So far as the hospital is - 966. But do you nGt think that in the crisis like this, concerned it i s, because the men now drink whisky, and, requiring the rriost thorough training of our tro:ops, it . besides, a number of sly grog-shops h ave sprung is a lnistake for men to -have leave from Saturday to 956. Ey th rJ Ohair-man.- Rave -these .sly grog-shops the following :.Monday morning, thus cutting out prac,

in the vicinity of the )lospital appeared since th'e Mili- tic.al_ly three days -of the trainjng period must re:-- tary Hospital was established ?-I _oould not say what m6mber that prior to the: war an instruoticm was issued was the position before the hospital was established, but by the Defence Department, at the request of the Ootm- -there ·are ·a number .of such places now, although we do cil of Ohu rche·s and certain well-intentioned people, that

ou.r best to_ close them; besides, there are plenty :of sly on Sunday/ only such drill as- was absolutely necessary grog-shops in Melbourne. , should be given to the meii. That instruction still

957 . .1:\.re you of the opinion. that. most of t}iem have stands, so in any case ..there ,·w:ould he -no training on started since 6 o'clock closiug became iaw ?--Yes. Sunday, and week-end leave, therefore, only affects 958:- By S enator Lt.-Colonel Bolton.-IIiive yo u had Saturday training, bec;;tuse leave

any trouble with the men in the Caulfield Hospital?- on afternoon, and -they are back 111 tiiD;e for

No. \Vith the exception of one or two, they -are the the first pa'I'ade on-. Monday except, of course,

ti.nest body of men on e could meet .anywhere. - soldiers from c.ountry districts, who ret1,1rn to camp by 959. I suppose you -are aware that in all training the· :first available train. · We must not forget, also, that cam.ps there is 'a certain amount of wastage due' to mili- if meri c-annot get reas-onable facilities t() ;their tary crimes, disease, and desertion. Would- you -say homes they become' dissatisfied. Recruiting is bad

that liquor was in ariy way responsible?=-Yes; and, al- enough now, and it would be infinitely worse if the though military canteens are all . dry) Inen . ·can bring men's leave were. interfered with. In the case of men li quor the eamp. - · from distant States training in Victoria, they, too, have

, · friends in Melbourne, and are able to visit the week-

. 960. Do vou think it would be more desirable if a d 1 , _ , .. r

tra iJ?;,i.ng were at some distance from towns · .

11 9.67. If the camps are :removed 200 miles from

?r ?--No. JUdgment, are m.o:_e content the, city, and the :r;nen were properly for. in every

are near _to or cit.Ies, because a 1,e_ spect, would not the results be better_?-! thmk there

n tlmoer to relatives, and have more _ vvould then be.. such a howl from the public that a change

opport:mities or tnends. _If can1:ps were ··Wiould be made very quickly. ·

long d1staiJ.ces £:·om cities or town.s, the men, I think, . .968. Do you think it would he possible to give e_ :ffect would become discontented. to any law to- put .down_ shol!ting ?-No; because •there

961. But do you not think that wherl' camps ar:e are .so many ways of evading -a law of that nature.

to cities and towns they provide more facilities for indul- When I pcd hotels and; wine shops out of bounds d:ink, to a. greater of wastage? fo! the };Iilitary m;y: pbject was de-

1 -I thmk If wastage does occur, 1t would be better feated by· civihans, who brought drmk m' to the men.

to get rid ·Of it here·, instead of sending -men overseas 969. Referring to your statement c.oncerning the men­ only. to be again, and without he·ing of a:ny tality of me:q. addicted to drink, does· it always follow

to then:, country. It would be much ·cheaper to that such men are ·of lower nient-ali-ty thal!:_ others?­

get r1d of the wastage here. No. I was thinking of the av:.erage man who takes t o

962. If it were possible to make the drink. 7 As a you wilr-find that a regular drunkard

that a man not obtain liquor, do you not think is of a lower order mentally than a\good sensible man

it would be better for the purpos8 of training, -and give who knows -and realizes the · dangers of with the . the military officers a better of.getting efficiency exception, of course, of a man who through hereditary and r.esu!ts from the men ?-Certamly; b.ut you can- iniluences may become a victim to the habit. not differentiate between the general pubhc and the 970. In view ,of your experience with the returned

soldier .. If th.ere is .drink.to be obtai:q.ed by the civilian, soldiers, I supppse. you have forill!ed .some opinion as the S:Old'ler w'lll also get It In IllY opinion, to their mental ·and· physical condition, anc;I-, that bei:p.g must. be no half measures In any legislation regard- , so, can you say if they are more 'to the in­

Ing the drmk traffic. fluence of liquor than they would be up.der normal oqn-

963. I suppose that, from your, experience of the ditions ?-I should say that be so in the case of

Forces, you know that a good deal of trouble, such -as- the men who have come back ·.after hl!-v:ing had a breaches Of discipline and desertion, is due to liquor?- '' rotten '' time-I m€>an, of course, the me-n . who have vVe have had v_ ery little of it in the hospitals. :1fen done something ; not tb:_ose :who lia ve had merely a plea­ have gone , " on the spree," -and I should say that, in ·sure trip. They are all more or less suffering from quite 50 per cent. of the tha-t have come under my their experiences, and. are. thus less-able to resist tempta­ r.otice, they havG" given as a reason for being absent tion; and I sliould say that liquor would have a greater

without leave, that they_ met some friends or old com- effect upon them now than would have been the case rades, and having had one drink, they went on, had he:hore •the;y left f'Or the Front. more drink, nd then forgot to come back · 071. Then do ·you think that any scheme for the

964. :Might -we not assume that men who volunteer · demobilization of our· Forces ·and repatriation would for military service would expect to be required to hP. seriously handicapped if the 1nen have facilities for undertake military .. duties, rather than- indulging in a indulging in drink _!,hin k it will be necessary to dif­ Iong picnic in the trainihg camps ?-Yes. fere11tiate between men who come back sound in he,alth

/

' and those who been invalided. Of course, a healthy -man would be in a much better condition to resist alcohol 'than a man whose constitution has been mined by the war. - -

--972. Do you not think that men would be

abnormal condition .upon their return to- ?-

.. yes ; because 'for so long they have been care_ d for by the military In some' respects ·a military life

is the and the finest in the world. The men are

fed and clotheq, and they are moved about from place . to place direction. They are not obliged to think

. for from the time they· get up · in the morn- ­

iug till tliey go to bed at To/ a great extent, their

self-reliance has been sapped, and this fact must not be lost 'sight of in any for -In a

great many cases, having to a grea.t extent lost their 'te,mporarily, they will .not, at the outs-et,

' be in a satisfa._ctm·y position to, compete with other men for their daily bread. _ -

· 973. Do you not think that ·active ·service- would tend to- make a "man· more In my jlldg­

ment, it would otherwise. Just as children have not · to think for themselves, so our soldiers have become childl·en of the administrative Departments. ·rn my· opinion, it should be part of a repatriation scheme to

help make these men- self-reliant again. ·

974. By Senator Colonel Rowell.-Would y:our marks about -the lower mentality of- men addicted to drjnk apply also to men · who contract venereal dis-­ ea$eS o, because, -as -a rule, such men are full.:blooded

animals of the hest type physically.

983. Can you say that if the average -.age of the 91 cases that came befo:re you l( st year on charges of drunkeimess was below· or above 30 I should

say the average would be under 30' years.

..._ The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned_ at 3.20 p.m.

(Taken Hobart.)

WE:QNESDAY, 20TH FEBRUARY, 1918. ,

Present:

Senator_ THOMAS, Chairman; Senator Lt.-Col. Bolton; I Senator Guy, Senator Buzacott, · Senator Colonel 'Rowell. Senator Grant, - .

Colonel Walter John -Cla.rk, Commandant of the 6th Military -District, sworn and examined. 984. By the Chairmdn.-Y:ou are chief military · officer in _ Yes.-

985. Have yeu been in charge of the ·6th Military District since the war started?-Yes, and prior to that. i)86. How many persons ·h a:'ve volunteered and been accepted for service in Tasmania ?-I have a return, as

follows:-- · , : . -

Number enlisted in/ ... 1\..I.E.F. in Tasmania-Officers 279

ranks 13,918

14,197

By Senator Buzacott.--IIave you had anything

to do with the venereal diseases at Caulfield If,

any cases come in there we send them away to -Lang- -warrin. _ - Number discharged from A.I.E.F.-

Other ranks _ _ 2,113

12,084 . 97 61 ·Do you - think drink is the cause neces­ sarily; but, on ;the . hand, an O ·rdinary sane man _

would not think of having anything to do With a -­

woman, unless drink had fuddled liis brain. 97t Are yoti _aware that we have had evidence stat-- ing that, .._._out of the 640 c·ases at Langwarrin, ·only 21 I men admitted that .they were under the 'influence or -

drink a the Then, _ if we had prohibition, there

wou1d have been 21 cases less, at all events. -- · Does that not clearly prove that drink is not re-

8punsible for the disease is not . :responsible,

though-it helps in the spread _of the - ·

N uinber available for embarkation Number I embarked from Tas-mania up to -31st December, 1917--

0-fficers .. Other ranks

279

11,525 11,804

The difference between the number available for eru-­ bark_ation and the number actually embarked should represent the number awaiting embarkat_ion on the 31st December, 1917, but does not agree with the number

_979. By. Senator Col_ onel Rowell.-Is there-not ,a gene- then actually in camp, namelS, 381, including ten re­ ral impression that liquor is in some way associated with turned soldiers. The :frgures that I have given are the the whole of the cases of-venereal but the - otficial records in my- office, but they have pot -been

p11blic have erroneous views on many: things. ' -- checkea by- me_ personally. However., I am satisfied 980. By Senator Lt.-Colonel Bolton.:. _ it likely that . that they are approximately correct, and that for more a ·man from venereal disease w.ould than two years past the r eturns have been accurately

openly and cangidly about it, and say whether he was kept. Any 9-iscr.e.panc;)T must have occurred in tlie early _ dTunk 01·- sober he c-ontracted all depends _stages of organizing the A.I.E.F. The Camp Oom­

UI_>On how you approach a man. If you approach him mandant has furnished me with a r eturn showing that

:'{Jth a-tomahawk,. you will get not-hing out of him, but for , .the years 1916 and 1917, 6,846 men enlisted, of If you approach him properly, and-get on his better side, • whom 1,191, or _17.39 per cent., have failed to go to the he ·will talk on < the subject. At all- events, tell , Fro_ nt.

me. - 987. Can Y.ou give r eason why that 17.39 per

By Se,na to1' Grant.-What average cent. have_failed to go to the Front ?-One r eason is

of the; men who left for the Front during the first twelve- many have found the. work irksome. As they put , months of the wa:rJ and t:Q.e average ages -of those who It, It has not-been "what It was cracked up to be." in the la,ter 19-onths, and who are no-w leav- 988. Do I understand that men could volunteer and

lllg ?-l-con1d llOt . be accepted, and go through a certain amount of train- .

Can you say if the ages of the men in the First ing, and then simply say, "I think I have had enough

Contmgent ':ere, on the whole, much higher than thQse of this," and .cease to be soldiers was thinking then who are lea-ving now?-Yes. The First and Second Con- of the desertwns. They account for some of the 17.39 tingents comprised as fine a body _of men a.s could be per cm:t., but the principal -reason why that percentage found At present, those who enlist are lads has failed 'to go to the Front is medical unfitness.

have JUSt reached eighteen years ,of age or married 989. A certain _percentage proved to : be medically

or older men. The " in-betweens " are doing nothing at -qnfit although, in the first place. they were

the present time. " . passed as medically fit. '

F.l453.-5

990. How many would come under that heading?­ I should say that more than half of the 1,191 come under that heading. Perhaps I should say that 60 per cent. would be rejected for medical · u_nfitness. The balance included deserters, men who were found to , be wanting-that is, /men who would not try,

did not have the capacity, and whom we had to dismiss -and distressful cases. were a great number

of distressful cases, where enlisted impetuousl:y, and, under pressure from the1r parents, asked !or then discharge; in other cases or wife. asked

for the discharge. It was only m exceptiOnal .Circum­ stances, where c,listress was proved, that a discharge was granted. Futhermore, there )Vas a great number of fraudulent enlistments of men who afterwards proved

to be over age or under age. There was a fair number of those who were under age. 991. I do not suppose you know why a number de­ serted ?-They probably deserted _because they - were getting into trouble. I mean :o say that they were

getting· punishment. _

992. What had they been doing to bring about that punishment ?-Roughly speaking, they were the slackers. There were 105 deserters in two years. At least that was the number who were struck off as deserters.

993. ·Have those 105 been .absolutely lost ?-Some have been re-apprehenclecl, but I am sorry to say that I cannot give you the figures. -

994. Do you think that has been the Qause of

yoy.r losing any- of the 1,191 men who n?t em­

barked for the Front ?-I would be inclined to thmk so. 995. To what extent ?-To the that l.t made

them slack. However, I cannot prove that. 996. Do vou, think that drink has interfered in any way with the quota, or lessened its

in any way ?-I think so, but not t_ o any considerable extent. • . . .

997. Have you any r ecord oi the-men who are total abstainers ?-No. 1 998. Have you had any 'serious troupJe at the camps? -No, nor in the towns, except for little brushes with the police occas'ionally at night. .

999 .. There has -been some trouble ?-No orgamzed trouble. There has been trouble when visiting troops have been in Hobart. 1000. But so far as the Tasmanians are concerned, - there has been very little trouble among the soldiers as

the outcome of drink, either in the camp or in· the

cities ?-That is so. 1001. Where . did those visiting come from?­ They were ·principally on the way through Hobart to or from N mv Zealand. There was one lot of Queens- /

landers. Some of our men were implicated. They wer-e found in the mobs. _

1002. any ships brought returned Tasm:+nian soldiers to Hobart ?-No, not directly. The, men re-- turning to Tasmania nearly all come via Melbourne. A few have come back 1Jia Sydney, and some by boats

going home .to New Zealand, but that is ver -;_y rare. They . nearly all come from Melbourne -via Launceston or Burnie. -

1003. When invalided soldiers return to Hobart, · are the hotels closed ?_:No; not when ,the Tasmanians re­ turn in the iWay I have described. It is not the policy , to close the hotels when our own men are coming hack.

1004. Are you of opinion that, so far as Tasmania is concerned, drink has interfered very little with the efficiency or discipline of your· quota ?-I think they have been a very sober lot. . .

1005. Do you think that the restrictions imposed by the Defence De'partment on the drink traffic have been of any service ?-Yes. 1006. Are you of opinion that, as a result of those re­ strictions, the efficiency of your men is a little.better

/

66

than it JVas ?-f{gu.'res are to the contrary, but I do not / always, go by figures, because . are otJ::er factors

that have to .be taken iJ?-tO consideratiOn. 1007. Are you of opinion that the are

advisable ?-I find it very difficult .to give a d1rect answer to that question, bBcause I thmk the touchinO' the soldiers might have been dealt 1n

other ;'ays. I am absolutely in favour . of dry

canteen. I prefer a modified wet canteen, selhng hquor containing a sm_ all percentage of alcohoL . 1008. Why do yov a- wet

the men, instead of wantmg to#get out and nave a dunk, could have it in camp. That would make so me m ore ­ contented. If the liquor is not too strong, I dc:J. not see any danger of the men .led .to become drunk ards.

1009. Would you sell sp1nts Ill the wet canteen?-No. . . . lcl

1010. Then the man who wished to get spints wo u still want to get out of camp ?-That is.·so .. 1011. If they want liquor of a do yo u

think that it would meet the case 1f It snould not be

very a small beer, a light wine, or a

cider. _ . -

,1012. Have you ·any other t o offer: as to

what cottlcl be done· in dealing with the questiOn of drink and soldiers ?-Not wit4out affecting the whole community. • .

1013. You do not think that drink should be demed to a soldier unless it is also denied to a civilian ?-I do not think that a should be treated differ ently in

that respect from a civilian; that is, when he is. o.ut of camp or barracks he should be allmye cl all the pnvileges of a civilian. 1014. If the whole COllllJlUnity were in favour of pr o­ hibition, do y ou think that it would be .for th e

soldier and the civilian?-- Yes; but, practically t>p eak­ ing, I think tlie case would, be met by restricting the alcoholic strengtli of drinks. If the Government co n­ trolled the entire output of alcoholic spirits, and pro­ hibited the h1a1mfacture or sale of ,any drink over a cei'tain strength, it would meet the -case, and would not

upset the community to any extent. 1015. ·what strength would you advocate?-The strength of 3: good ordinary cla ret. I have an idea that the strength should not 10 or 12 per cent.

1016. By Senator 'Lt.-Golonel B oltcP-n._:-B eyond the 1,191 you have nientwned, thete may have been wastage on the mainland after your m en left Tas­ mania ?-Any losses in Victoria v1ould not be accounted for in . figures that r have given.

1017. Can you explaln why the medica-l service seems to create such great possibilities of so many men being rejected on· a second medical examination ?-I hav_ e come to the conclvsion that the country doctors, who are

responsible for some of the first examimi.tions, are too lenient . Of course, doctors di:ffer, but it must be r em em­ bered that a lot of the men are not able to stand the

They are apparently right at the :first, and their

cases seem to be bona ficl e enough, but they are not able to stand the strail! o_f training. Jiowever, it is a puzzle to me why the numbers should be so -

10_18. there cases where m en have been accepted in country districts_ , -and have left their employment, or disposed of their businesses, and made arrangements for a ·long absence from A ustralia, and, on undergoing ·

another medical examination, have been discharged without being able to r ender any service to. the country? are many such cases. · -

1019. In your general observation during the period of the war have you found that ' there has been much crime or . disease through drunkenness among the soldiers ?-There has not .been much drunkenness, but t'here has been good deal of

· 1020. "is Hobart .the nearest settlement to -your camp? 1041. What othe; difficulties are there in the way of · -The cafup is 8 miles· away, at Claremont. Glenorc .:,hY repatriation ?-As a_ country man, I am apt to look is the' nearest suburb. _ repatriation as settling the men on: the land, hut there lS

1021. Are there any hotels at Glenorchy ?-:::-,Yes. a great tendency among the men to. club together and. The1 re are three hotels. There is one howl nearer. We keep in the cities. They form theu clubs, . and they -have, had to put restrictions on this hotel from time to w_ ant to have an easy time and plenty of good company. time to prevent the going to it. At, present Perhaps some of them will do a little work.

it is " out of bounds." 1042. Do you not think that-the fact that a returned

102'2. D o you consider that the locatio11. of soldier who wishes to -produce potatoes., turnips, and so. near towns is an encouragement to the men to partake on,. is r efused permission to do so unless he agrees to of alcohol, or submits them to temptations to crimes or p a-y so mG of the local land-owners of Australia £17 per disease?--I favour a country camp, but _ tliaJ raises acre, a prospect which will h-ang round his neck like a

d'ifficulties of administration and supply. huge millstone for years, and keep his nose to grind-

1023. You think that it is undesirable to· have camps - stone for. the term of his natural life, will have a much near -large of population ?-No. - more detrimental effect on the settlement of so ldiers on

1024. You spoke of temptations to disease ?-Un- the land than the inclination of men · to have a beer, doubtedly there are. - ' ' whether of a r educed character or of the ordinary

1025. Do · the m9n get frequent leave from camp?- strength ?-Those are not the conditiO'ns prevaihng in Yes. Tasmania. Any returned soldier who shows .any a:pti- J

1026. They have .facilities for running ·into the town tude f or going on the land is assisted by the War. · in the evening and at the week end ?-Yes. Council, ·recommend him to the Repatriation Oom-

1027. Does that add to the possibilities of. the m,en - In -addition, the State Government are doing

contracting disease and committing crimes ?-Undoubt- sornetliing in the matter of settlement. As to the matter edly it does. . of price, a man came yesterday, and wanted to QUY 700

1028. From your ·long military experience, would you acres of land at £2 an acre on Bruni Island. I referred be of opinion that the .habit of taking alcohol seri- · him to the Chairman of the Closer Settlement Board. ously. interfere with successfully dealing with the I know of any £17 per acre Tasmania.

problem o£ repatriation ?-It is one of the difficulties. 1043. I 'ivas r eferring to Mr. Manifold's offer of some 1029. I suppose that you feel that it is· incumbent on of his estate in Victoria. Have many men been settled Australia just now to make th e maximum m_ ilitary on the land in Tasmania since they have returned from e:ffort?-Yes. . _ the Front?_:_Not a large number. I cannot give you

1030. Do you believe that to!al prohibition w?uld the :figures. .

enable Australia to make a greater supreme effort m . a _ :fQ44., ;Have any of them thrown up their farms and military direction ·than could be done without it ?- I returned to the city ?-I do not think so. - think it would. 1 104_ 5. Is it not a fact that men will desire to leave

1031. By SenatOI> Grant.=-You are in favour of are- camp, whether there is a wet cante ... en there or not?­ duction in the strength of liquors to that corresponding Yes. · If you restrain a man, the-tendency is for him to to a good ordinary claret; would you be in favour of a break 'restraint. That is human nature. corresponding re duction in the price of liquors supplied · 1046. When the men are grauteclleave,_they come into

to the men?-U the price would come down. Yes. -

1032, Do you think that the quantity of beer_ pur- 1047. Do you think that if a wet canteen is estab-

chasable "'rQuld be greater than can be got now for the at the camp they would remain there for the sake same amount of money?-The soJdiers could get more of getting a drink or two?-No. That was not my drinks, if allowed to,- but I am referring to canteens I say that men who are in the habit of

which are under restrichons. Ther e is always a non- haYing a drink will be more contented if they can get it commissioned officer present, and he is r esponsible for at the camp. 1

seeing that no man becomes the wors,e for liquor. 1048. Are men who are up in years inclined to drink

1033. If the· strength of_ alcohol were reduced, the ;nore, on the average, than men whose ages run from soldier would only get the same quantity of beer for the eightee:n years to twenty-four years ?-They are inclined money which he now pays for it ?-No, the,price would -- to "soak" Young men when they drink do so probably be less. in the e}\cit@ment of company. The old man, if he

1034. "The price should he reduced when the drinks a,_t all, is more likely to "soaR."

of the beer is reduced ?-Yes; it would probably be re- 1049. If young men have not been accustomed to see duced automaticall:;: by the canteen co:r;nmittee. strong drink in their homes, would not they be inclined 1035. Are there . any other difficulties in the way of to acquirE} the habit of sampling beer, whether weak or repatriation qeyond the question of drink?-Yes, the strong, thereby developing a taste which might induce

tenden13y on the part of some return_ed s9ldiers !lOt to them to look out for spirits ?--There is a possibility of do any more work. - · that, but I am not advocating the use of strong drink.

1036. Do you think that· the fact of having been in 1050. Is it not your experience that the inveterate the Army for two or three years tends to make a man drinker begins with lemonade/ and then shandyga:ff, and develop that spirit, which is as the "I.W.W.," various other drinks of that kind, and ultimately gets to the "ca-cany," or "go slow" ?-I could not say that. whisky, and finally to brandy ?-No. If a man is

1037. Does it develop a d_ isinciination to do civilian brought up on light drinks, his palate becomes ac'cus­ work ?-'-In many cases it develops a disinclination to tamed to them, and, ·as. a general rule, he is satisfied . work. · with them. ·

1038. Does cre;_te a desire to remain in uniform, 1051. Do you think that the beer-drinker keeps on not work ?-I would not like to say that it creates a drinking beer ?--If a man is brought up on beer h e will

desire to remain in uniform, b_ ut there is- a desir e to be keep on drinking beer. petted., and to do very little. That was my experience 105_ 2. You are in favour of a wet canteen, provided after the South African war. that the beer is mild ?-Yes. ·

l039. Did strong drink have any material effects on - 1053. By S enator you anything to

the suecess of the British arms in the South African do with the of the men in camp ?....:.:.I am respon­

war ?-Indirectly, but not on the veldt. sible for the di.scipline of the Pay Office, but not for the

1.040. Are. you i_ r: of _the issue of the rum actual accountmg. Of course, if there is any complaint

.J:'atwn on actlVe serviCe?- Yes, under cer t ain conditions. from the men -I have to investigate it. . - 52 /

68

1054. Have any irregularities occurred connexion 1075. By Senat-or B olton.-Do think

with the pay at the Claremont Camp dun!lg the_ last that the authorities could g1ve· eff ect t_o an_ shout-eighteen months ?- There were irregu!aritie·s in the -Pay ing" law would be .yery difficult,. but I think that D the restriction would h ave a very good efEect. It should epartment.- · , . _ . . . ' h 1055. ·were any m en suspended because of those ure- ·tes se'il the e'iril Yery mue : gularities ?-Yes. By. the Chai;·ma.n .. -I you to sa!

1056. Were those irregularities due to the· effect of that drink has very httle, f any, Ill-effects on the effi-intoxicating drink ?-I cannot .say. · ciency or discipline or th_e

1057. _Has the early closing of hotels come into force / 1077. Is that on account of the fact that those who I·n Hobart si'nce " the. outbreak of the war?-Y.es,· 6 d h b b 1 t 2 Yes volunteere ave een a ver,y so er o .-;;:- · o'clock closing. . . 1078: In view of th _ at fact, why do you think. · that 105 8. Has it had any material effect on the drmk1pg I) T . drink will interfere wi th repatriation am gomg on of the men in camp?-Very slight effect. · f h t d - 1059. Are there m any cases of venereal dise ase among p er sonal experience in r e erence t o t r e your soldiers good many. - · . soldiers, but perhap-s I see th e worst of them m the city. Do you t hink that drink is responsible for that? 1079. Do I understand that drink has no effe gt on t he .-That is my opin ion, but as I am not in .camp I have soldier up to the time h e leaves, an d th at it does affect not been able to follow up individual cases. him when he comes back ?- I did not mean to _apply · i06i. Are venereal cases tre.ated here or at Lang- drink does no t adversely affect_ t he men we. are gettmg warrin, 1n Victoria ?-The ordinary cases .are in camp. What I meant to -s-ay :vas th e drmk t he men ·h ere. We have an isolation venereal hospital. obtain after they join has not sen ously the . 1062. B1J S enator Gtty.;::-Hav.e you any opinion on ciency of the A .I.F. I do say th_ at dnnkmg habit.s the questi'on of legislating against " shouting" ?-I affect the men. , think. it would be an excellent idea , I am surprised that 1080. Do . y6l! think that the general hab.its it h as not already come about. To my mind "shout- of the community intelrierer, but .n?t any hab:ts whiCh ing " is almost the root of the evil. . the men may contract after t h ey Jom ?-That Is wh at I 1063. Have you observed that the nerves of invalided mean. Numbers of the men would have very :rp.u?h soldiers are ve ry much sliattere.d, and that the condi- better soldier.s if it had not b een for theu excesses 1u tions of these men is such that a '·rery small quantity d · 1 rin L - - - . b f of alcohol will have on them the effect- that a much 1081. the driiiking habits _ of a num er o - greater quantity will h ave on another man ?-I have the me n have interfered with them, they mterfer e also been told that that is so. No case· has been undei.- rny with-. the general efficiency?:.:_Y es . observation sufficiently clo sely for me to give an opinion 1082. Y ou have sai C!. that o n account of ths peo ple first hand. "' - being a lot has ve.ry to do adver s.ely 1064. Have paren.ts who have eligible sons hesitated ,lVith the efficiency of soldw rs .m about permitting them to enlist because of the- dangers . quota ?-I do not _ tlie effiCien cy cb s­ of drink or venereal disease ?-Yes. cipline of the men who have enhsted ha_ s -been seriOusly 1065. They have a, dread of those things ?-Yes, but a:ffe q,ted, by drink. ' . , . . tha,tdread is in · the h earts of most parents. · 1083·. If that be· so, 'vhy a dvocate any r estnctwn, 1066. Is it such as to prevent them giving permission even f ' anti-shQuting "; if _ dri11k do es T:o r aff ect . to their sons to enlist ?-In some cases it has had that Arrriy,-or its training, or effi ciency, there IS J IO necess1ty effect; - to add any new for instance, you 1067. Possibly the of a wet in camp "anti-shouting";· therefore th er e must 'be ev1 l wluch might give parents catlse for dread ?-A wet would ,be -obviated by " anti-shouting" legislation?­canteen might affect r ecruiting to some extent. That is so. A cert ain number of the men who have been - 1068. By Senator Colone l - Rowell.-Do the figures rejeCted ·h ave not =- be}? rejected i.f it . you h fl.ve mentioned in r egard to men discharged aftei· a had not been I or "shouting." If there was less _ drmk­second medical examination cover men who haYe gone ing in the qommunj. ty we would h ave more men fit for abroad, but haye been sent back before reachi_ng the the Front. , _ . _ - -- Front ?-N o; they wer e discharged in Tasmania. Once 1084. Then to that extent you think drink do?s inter-- · we despatch men fro:ru Tasmania they are taken off _our· fere with efficiency?-Yes. ·-Rtrength until they come back as- r:_eturned soldiers. 1085. And yqu think that driilk vvould make dem.a --·, 1069. I-Iave many been found to be me,dical!y · bilizati.o·:ri much· ·more difficult because of the state in unfit after they have _ started on the vojage ?-Yes, - which you have seen a- numbe r of returned 1070. Have many been returned as medically m;tfit in Yes. · - - . that way ?-I do not think the number is very big. 108 6. For the s-ake of the returned snldier, would 1071. When· you went _to South Africa, was there a ·you be prepared adv:o oate general prohibition ?-I wet canteen bn your troopship - - think that the case eould he rri et by reducing the strength 1072. Did any difficulty arise through having a wet of liquor and by tJ1e proper con trol of spirits:: ­- canteen on the vessel?-No. , There .was a very -lim_ited - - 11087. -Instead of having prohibition, would you advo­canteen. A man had a permit to have a · glass of beer cate doing away with spirits, and allowing 'the com­- at each meal, -and, except for double-bapking, which munity to sell light liquors only ?-Yes ; but I would may have occurred, there was no .,9pportunity to get modify that answer by saying that the spirits should drink otherwise. · · be monopoli:;ed by the Government, because I realize 1073. Do you think that the excessive drinking takes - that they might be necessary in certain cases. At any place after the arrival of· a troopship is caused by the rate, they should -not be r etailed. The -wine export men having been kept from the opportunity of getting trade -is rather an important industry, a certain a drink for-two- or .three mont}ls ?--Yes; .it seems to me amount of alcohol is necessary to fortify wine: Then a lot of them to have a good time in port, and there is the question of comrriercial alcohol. like to have a glass of beer or two as part of the having 1088. Jias the amount of venereal disease among the the good time. . men interfered with the effic:lency ?-It has very seri­ously. __ Venereal dise ase, and also the antecedent disease, have done a great -deal to depreciate the strength of tlre Army. 1074. Do you think that this excessive drinking could be minimized by allowing wet canteens on troopships?-,­ Only t() a very slight extent.

69

1

1089. In JOJJF opinign, has- drink been an important _ m -my particular -branch during the last

factor in the occi.U'rence of venereal disease ?-It' seems s1x - months, certain men have come before us, to be a natural corollarv that if a man is the worse for but most of the cases are absent-without-leave drin_ k he cannot-:use the" judgment that he would- possess . Drink may have the cause of a man',s absence,- but' when sober. · _ · he is not charged with drunkenness. These are all

1090.- If your '()ersonal opinion is correct, would :._ you h01ne-service men; and in four cases out of five of say- that to that extent drink has interfered with the- those brought up on the charge Of being absent without efficiency of the soldier?-Yes. , leave, the men had been drinkers _before they came into

1091. Do vou kno1v of a1i.v of the effects- of the wet camp. They are elderly men for the most part: They canteen syst;m at-Salisbury Plains ?__:_No. I had a_:re all _right when they- are in camp, but when they get twenty-:6,ve yea¥8'- experience of wet canteens in the intp the city, occasionally they have a fill up. No Australian Forces·. · ro.atter whether -they became soldiers or not, they would

1092. By Senato1' B'nzacott._:_Do you think that there ·still have drunk. 1 •

would be any greater difficulty in administering an - You that a numbe-r- of these men had the

"anti-shouting , _law than in administering a law for habit of drinking before became soldiers?:-Yes; the prohibition of the m:;rn.ufact'ure and sale of intoxi- men-I personally knew as men of.intemperate habits. eating liquors?-Yes. I think it ·would be absolutely 1106. Had those men been total abstainers before they impqssible to carry out an Bill in toto. became soldiers, and had they abs-tainers after­

If there are five meh, and only one has the money, he wards, they would have rendered better service can hand the 'necessarY .coins round .. - - dou_ btedly. .

1093 .. They would have fiv e'' dtinks each ?-That ' 11-07. And that extent the efficiency of the Army is so. I -wou.ld not break an "anti-shouting" law. ' - has been 'lowered' a little, because of the drinking habits 1094: The: penalty could be fixed at a heavy amount? of the men ?-I should say so. The men would be more . ' -I do not think that such a law could be- carried out valuable to me if they did not drink. _

but. it WOllld have a-very eff ect. It . ' 1108. ,How many men nave you directly under your

would some people who think that they are I have a bout eighteen or t'Yenty now, but six-

/ mean if they -do not" shout" for others. - tem1 months ago I had twenty-seven or

1095. So far prohibition is concerned, .how yvould l109. A certain percentage of that )}umber would be Y?U pre;_ ent- his own still and· rendering better service-if they did not little

own wh1sky ?-Jnst thf same way as we prevent now. better. · - ·

1096. Prohibition wo.uld cause great disorganization 1110. They would give less trouble ?-Yes. The man to Yes. , • - who drinks js a !P-QSt individual: One man

· 1097. It would lead to the uprooting of _ \Vill go out and get on the and it will take

Yes. · - · - -

- )098. I Cis ha_ rdly - a to. tak'e into' . him about two days _ to get over it; you Fi-ave to let him

go easy for a day or two, and not bustle him too ' much.

consideration at: the present time ?-It is quit.e out- Another man will go out and be blind drunk at night, -side the I!_lilitary scope. I 'would not like to , and come _back in the morning mid be as good as

see it -come about unless' tbBre is a very big maJ'ority of - B ever. , ut that_is an exceptional case. In most cases, people in favour :Of it. I Yent.ure to thiilk there would when a man has a night out, he is not as good as he be a reaction. _,ought to be on the following day. ·

CapJain William F.otheringham, Gamp . 1111. Does his full pay gQ on while he is recovering t

Clare-mont A.I.F. Camp, sworn .and examin_ ed. ::::_-Yes-; as long as he reports for duty and answers the -1099. By the Chairman.-Have ·you been associated roll. His pay goes ,on while he can carry on. "':ith camp since- if started - ju :lny p-resent 1112. There is a certain percentage of your men \vho

Since 1st October, 1916, I have been _ do that sort of thing ?-A very small percentage.

· Quartermaster the_ camp. Prior to · that, I Wl\S

attached to the 40th_ Battalion. 1113. Are the men under your control as sober as the

1100. As Quartermaster, you deal with .stores, and gener-al run of mEni they are . .

not with the men?---:We have a staff of non-combatants 1114. So that there would be just the same percentage to deal with. - - of men in the large camps who would go out _and get, on

llOl. any.thing to _ d.o with the of the and take a couple of days to get ri_ d of /

men in the camp ?-In a small camp, we have to dq_ a the effect the -parade-ground, they can get a man great mimy diverse duties. - I have had to parade on and march him up and down to steady him up. His oc-casions, but it is-not of my duties. The position is different from that of the man who is doing

training of the men h_ as nothing, whatever to do with clerical work. I would 'rather have a man sober. One / me. ' My_ duty brings me in touch with men who are in Inan .who was recently discharged was an exceptional-ly· -- - - the work, and __ men who have returned fine fellow, and I am fhaf I cannot replace him by

from the Front, 'or are unfitted t_6 go to the Front ·another with. equal capacity. He used to get "over

through being over lO).ge. · · the fence n a couple of times a year. Notwithstanding

1102. ·Has drink affected the efficiency of the camp the fact that he had a night or two out occasionally, . I at 'Claremont ?-I -do not think so. indulgence was very sorry to lose his seTvices. in drink does _affect efficiency in-any walk of life, and, -1115. In other words, this man_drunk was better than in in9-ivid-ual cases, the efficiency of the men in the another man sober quite that; but, during his

camp has _undoubtedly been affected, but I do uot think sober moments, he was a better man than any other I that the efficiency of the camp as a wlrole has been could get. - There are many men ·like that. If you

adversely affected. can get them sober, they are worth their weight in gold.

1103. A certain -perce_!ltage . of the nlen in the camp get the worse for drink, but the percentage is so s:r;nall 1116. By Senato1· Grant.-Have you had any trouble that it do"es ·not affect the camp generally?-That is with the men in your branch who are total abstainers, so. I can .speak generally of the camp, but I could or so extremely moderate in their drinking that they

speak particularly of the department of the camp under are never known to "over the fence" ?-I have never my personal contr-ol. ' any trouble w1th men who are sober or non-

1104. W you say that the general tenor of dr1nker:s. Out of cases that I have betOI!·e me,

the men go into the camp is sobriety?- four were men who know had been drmk1ng. They

70_

did not appear before me f;r that reason, yet I knew that are down. - No bottled' li.quor is allowe-d to be that, 'indirectly, drink was the cause of the trouble.- The issued to the men on troop trains. We wire the fifth case was that of a sober man. -- stations right through that no bottled liquor is to be

1117. Did those men get -the drink in or in issued to them.

sly grog-shops ?-That is a question I cannot answer_ 1133. But they get it all the sa1 e ?-Not .so very They did not get the drink in camp., and then only it is forced -on them by

1:p8. Are there any sly about Hobart?- _the people who are ordered not to give to them.

I cannot tell you. There were nearly 500 men on the train that left about

1119. Have any of your men been arrested by the Easter years ago. Colonel Lord wired to all the

Fiobart police ?-Not to my knowledge. stations, and personally told me to look_ out at ohe of

1120. Is it a fact that the Hobart police-look on men the stations 111 the vicinity of the camp, and confiscate in un'iform with a kip.dly eye and let them g(-'t away.? any bottled liquor that came on board. This was -There are military police in Hobart whose duty it is done. _ The liquor was sold to the men on the reverse to look after men in uniform; but, as a general-rule, 1 side of' the train. We con:fiscated half-a-dozen bottles, think the civil police do not look with a kindly eye on and then we had no more' trouble. The men did / not the men in khaki-at least, that is the accepted idea mind. I have never seen any bottled liquor taken' on among the men. Whether it is true I do not know. board the tPains, except at Christmas tii!:_le, at Par­ -I think the civil police do t_heir duty. They have been attah, where we got one bottle. In_the case of returned

of great help to us on many occasions. men, they drift back in isolated parties, and if the

-1121. Have those men you have mentioned been drink- ho telkeeper supplies liquor to them, he is doing so ing on their own, or with others under what is known strictly against ordei·s. Any officer in charge has the a:S the "shouting" practice?___,.. It is hard to answer that ·right to clo se the doors of tne hotel and oraer the men question. One man _may fly to drink because of . out. Before the men leave, they are mustered and told domestic troubles. Another man- might have a go0d to-play the game, and they havee·heered the sentiment._ -day at the races.' As a , rule, I think they generally ·

11'34. Your-experience is generally that the men · will

-drink together. 1122. would you be in favour of abolishing the . obey the order cheerfully?-Yes; they are like a lo t of sheep if the officers caiL contro.l them. "shouting" system ?-Yes. . -1123. Do you think that the trouble of administering ·1135. When the men discover that a few of them an "anti-shouting" la:,w would be get drink, is there anJ sympathy exp ressed for those

No; I think it could be administered all right. who disobey the orders?-WP.at a man does off parade 1124. In to the question of repatriation, have is not taken· to. An intoxicated man's pals

you any experience of men having thrown up their are generally very willing to help him. .

country selectiens on account of the d-rinking habit?- 1136. Are they' inclined to condone his offence?-I do No. . not think that condone anything'that will affect the

1125. Do you know if any men repatriated in Tas- efficiency of their platoon. If ..a man were ip. the habit mania have been settled on the land of local 'land-owners of drinking continuously, the members _ of his company in this State ?-I do not know of miy. I kno:}V of some would want him out of it if he was · not fit to do his who have applied; but, so far, they have not been job. - That is· the general feeling. settled. . 1137. What you think is one of the main causes

1126. What has become of the returned men; have ·, of desertion ?-Cold fe et. A great many ·_men who join they gone back to their, usuaL occupations ?-A-lair . get a surprise when they find what things are, and they number of them have· been absorbed in camp work. will move Heaven and eartli to get dischaTged. They Others seem to be just "knocking about." You see a .rake up all 'sorts of d_ iseases, a nd if they find that they lot of them about. I do not know what becomes of cannot be turned down they desert as [\' last resource. them. I suppose a few find their way into civil occu- Qbviously, the man who deserts must o'e sober. He pations. Once we are in camp, we live in a world of needs ·all his wits about him to escape· detection . . our own, and we do not know much of what goes on in the world outside. 1138. I am speaking of those w:ho desert wheJ?- _ they

1127. Are you in, favour of wet ?-No. _ are out on leave ?-They __ probaibly ·made up their

mind beforehand. I do not think -they act on impulse .

1128. By Senator Buzacott.--,Are all the men under your charge home-service men?--=--yes; they are all 113 9. Do you think drink !s a factor in cases of deser-, re-attested as home-service men 1 after taking -their dis- tion .?-I should not think it is tq_ any extent. charges as returned soldiers. 1140. Has there peen milch waste of food in camp?­

. 1129: Are all your men returned soldiers ?-:1fost of I do not think so. We have o f comri.1uting

them. We do not put returned soldiers on sanitary now. If_ rations -are saved, is purchased in

work unless it is at their .own req:uest. Outside of the lieu. ,

sanitary work, there is only one man employed who is 1141. Hovv long has that _s;iste:J;n been in operation? not a returned soldier, and he is fifty years of age; and -J\£ore, or less ever since the. war started, but the super­ has sons at the Front, one of whom has been vision has been stricter the last eight OY nine

woi1nded. As a matter of fact, he has applied for a montl}s. The. system is a very simple one. If a. ma,n discharge. ' is allowed 11 lb s. of bread, and you can get it down to

1130. The men under yQur control who have been · 1 lb., or to 12 ozs., something else is 1purchased in discharged were mostly discharged for their drinking , lieu. The moment you see that there is any 'waste you habits?-We discharged one man who was a very capable inquire into it, and cut dow n yoiu order. fellow when sober; and .whom we tried very har<;l to pull - - 1142. If one-tenth of the men in camp. are absent

together. He not' ma-ke g.ood. At any rate, he on leave, do jou continue to make pr.gvision for them?­ has been the same for the last twenty years. No; it is cut off. N-o prgvision is made for a man

1131. By SeAator G.uy.-While you · have been in unless he is absolutely in the camp. / charge · of the department, you have, nevertheless, kept _ ·1143. lias that always been t!J:e case.?-It has always your eyes open and seen things?-Yes; I have been in been the case since I-have been .a soldier. Only men charge of troop trains going north. · actually on_ parade are fed. -

1132. Mixing among the men, what do y.ou find is 1144. Do you ever find you have stacks of bread

the impress ion among them in regard to the restrictions _. and ·potatoes and other penshables .over ?-No; _ you on dri11k think thai: they will QUt any 9rders ·CrtllllO t havEl under the corn:nutatwn system.. ·

' 1

/ \ .

. , -- " -

By , Sen(J;tor:. ()olonel supply 'the

daily ration from the morn_ ing.state?-Wenave to orde'

- I

a .'little ahead, two days ahead for ·meat or

bread-but -at the end of the month, if yqu strike a balancB, .it c_ omes out right. We 'CUt off on one day _ what we have overdrawn the .previous _day. . ·

· 1146 .. Men 'vho are going away on leave cl.o.. not stop

wonderfully well conducted and very pleasant place to -live in: There is absolutely no trouble. .If the inen have any quarrel, they settle it in the stadium. 1159. Do you think that the absence of a wet canteen

as to peace and ·quietness ?-I would be_ sorrY' to see

one in camp; Perhaps I have not seen the:(n conducted under the best conditions, but it is ' my opinion that they

. for the evening meal, which- rather ·creates an -over supply?-They give \us the margin ot about_ 24 .hours .. We sometimes gain a little on that.· If the ration for meat is 1-! lbs., a man has half of that for his break­ fast.·_ he does not stay t9 tea, tbe other half-is

"'bunce." If we find that we are well in hand-, we cut gff the supply. . · . '

114?.' I suppose that you have not. tQo many men for the work you ·have' to do as S!lpply officer?_:_ Not under - circumstances, but we h-ave to- cut down · to

absolu,te -economy. _,

are better off without them. ·

"""" . , '

J arne$ Abraham Hurst, of _

·- sworn and examined.

1160. By· the ChJ!;irman. - Are you connected with. the. Army ?-At present I am Qll the recruiting staff, but for two years I was in the A.I.F. I was in camp at

!iJ.ont, aD;d afterwards was in Egypt an_ d in Gallipoli. I ·was in hospital in England. •

1161. How, long were you ll). camp before you went to th

1148. H 'ave men in-.the camp suffered ·in the matter of getting. their ·ratio:o,s pthers, having been -away without leave ?-::-No. -- · _ ·

116?. During the time you were in camp d{d drink iztterfere to any extent with the efficiency of men?-. So far as I was concerned, I did not no-tice anything.

1149. By · Senator Lt.-Oolonel Bolton.-Is. there any evidence of any. atterript to introduce liquor into camps ?-I have been in-carrip for· the whole of my .p.re­ sent term there, _and to my personal knowledge we h-ave had only two occasions _in which liq:uor has _been

attempted t9 ..be' introduced into the camp. . 1150. By private individuals ?-Only once .by ,a pri-vate -individual. -

1151. ..The men are searclied at the gate?-Yes. In one . case intoxicants were taken from them, and hn:rrded over to m e and destroyed. · In the other case they were in by a . subterfuge, and •one man was

discharged for.not carrying out his dutie's strictly. -1152. You are · concerned in sQme. cases in orderly­ room ,in ' to losses of equipment and charges to

be made for.loss do not deal with

ma:riy of thos.e cases in orderly-rooms. If a man·loses ' his equipment, he has to make it good. . · -

1153. the majority· of the cases dealt with

in orderly-rooms ?_::_The biggest part would he absent-­ without-leave cases. .1154. ·Have YQU to recover any stores and equip­ ment from thE? · town or other r>la·ces where they p.-ave been lost ?-Pn two it was reported to me that

uni:Eorms had been found. One uniform w.as found hidden in -the bush in the vicinity of the camp. SlJ.Illably the man had v;rith the help ·Of SOme

one -outside, and ·left his equipment there. It has been reported that two OT three unifQr:ins have been found. They were recovered and s ent on/ to us by the- police, and we co-y_ld trace to whom they belonged, but not in every case. ·

1155. Hav.::e uniforms and equipment .been recovered in the town?___:: r heard this morning, unofficially, that there were about- three uniforms in Hoba.rt. I think they know the men to -whom they _belong, and that 'they

have them under arrest ,at the present ·time. ,

1156. I s there an Assist; nt We lra-v-8--llot had one until wit4in the .last few weeks. 1157. How are the police military 'd.uties carried out in the town ?-The military police are stationed at Head-qua·rters -Barracks in charge of a sergeant. For- ·

merly they were out ·in the camp. Now they are under the control· of Head-quarters, but they carry out any duties in which we ask for their 'help. The officer re-. cently a_ ppointed is Lieutenant Hart. Sergeant Coombs, a returned soldier, has always been iri. charge pryviously.

1158: By · the Chairman.-Why do you object to a wet canteen ?-From my experience of wet cante'ens in milita·ry camps I did not form a favorable opinion of them. I think we are better without th em. There is

no doubt ,a -train ing camp, as it exists at present, 1s a

I was in charge of one unit as a sergeant, and I do not think that any man in my unit was ever missing from pa1:ade.-..... There were two or three heavy drinkers in the unit, but they did their work. . ·

:was there a wet canteen on the troopship in

w-hwh you went to ·the Front?-No.-.. 1164. Do you favour St "dry" ship or a "wet" -ship? -I have not hacLany experience of a "wet" ship, but I can see no objection to one, so long as it is properly managed. c , , - · - • 1165: Would you advocate a dry canteen or:. a wet can­ in' camp a teetotaller, _ but my-· experience 1n Egypt leads me to advocate a wet canteen. We had both wet and dry canteens in Egypt. Where thery was a dry canteen the men who were in the habit of drink-ing had a: good drunk immediately they got out on lea':e; the;y drank rather to excess. Drinking was not so notiCeable where there was a . wet canteen. If -a man could have a drink, er a couple each night, he returned. tB the camp sober_ when he went away on leave. It was - through having a drink before leaving, and because he 'knew that he could get a drink on his return. When we were camped at Ismailia we _had a dry ca:nteen. I was sergeant, and I noticed that when the men went into Ismailia, some of then;_ came back with more than they . should have had. When we were camped at Mqascar -there \_Vas .a wet canteen un_ der ·military control, and cases of drunkenness were very rare among those who returned to camp from/ Ismailia. I attribute this to the that the _ men could get a couple of drinks in camp / dunng the evening if wanted them. 1166. I suppose there was not niuch wet canteen or dry canteen on Gallipoli ?-We had nothing but t he rum was no chance of getting any other intoxi­ cating hquor .. The rum was issued when, in the opinion of the officer, 1t ·was needed.. At the time 0f the snow­storm, out a guard, and we had as many as seven mps 1n ' one mght. · . 1167. Even if a wet canteen was preferable to a dry canteen, you could not get it on Gallipoli ?- There were no shippi-ng facilities. 1168. There are wet canteens associated with the .Aus­ tralian troops in France ?-Ther e were 'none connected with my ?rigade or battalion, but ypu could buy wine and beer m _ the towns wher e you were billeted. 1169. Nothing was provided in the camp itself?­ No . 1170. Did the wine or beer in. France a:ffeot the men much?-No. 1171. In England you were in hospital?-Yes. The troo_ps in hospital were not able to get liquor. They hacf to wear a blue uniform, and they only drew 1s. a we e.k . No OlD was all owed to serve a man wearing a blu e hospital sui t, · I

- j

..r. \

--

1172. What has ,happened to you since you _have re- 1187. If hotelkeepers' }Vere not allowed to serve turned ?-I spent eight months in at Laun- · soldiers_/ with drink iu a port when a troopship IS re­

. ceston. Since then I have been o:n the recruiting staff: turning, would the soldiers -object if they were given I am inspector of recruiting· for Tasmania. the opportunity of securing drink at their O'\Yn hotel,

think that drink .affects the welfare of where civilians were not permitted to -be supplied ?-In

any percentage of returned soldiers ?-No material per- Durban the hotels 1vere open, but they were closed to centage of them, but it affects the welfare of some. I soldiers in uniform. "The officers were -given cap. say that I do not know any returned soldier who but the soldiers resented the .. fact that men in civilian drinks now who is drinking more than he did before he clothing enfer the hotels whereas they could not

joined the Army. The men drank just the same !>efore do . so. -

they .enlisted, but were not so conspicuous as they 1l88. Would they be-- in favour of the establishment are now in· uniform. - - of a _wet canteen at the -different ports?-Yes. ...:. •

1174. Are there any who were not addicted to drink 1189.- Has drink any bad effect on your work as a before they joined, but have drinkers since _ recruiting, agent cannot see that it affects it one

then ?-I do know of some -cases, but they are very few. way or the other. _ -1175'. I have no doubt you have met parents who have 1190. If prohibition was brought into do ·y.ou _. been naturally very anxious about their sons, fearing think yol! would · get more recruits ?-I do not think it that by joining they would become addicted to would .affect the position one way or the other. We

Yes. · get men now whom we cannot accept on account of

·1176. ])o you think that that fear is ·to a _ great ex- their drinking habits. Others are ,passed in the local tent groundless ?-I do. As a matter of it depends · township_; and sent into camp, only to be discharged on .the son: I do not think he .receives any extra tempta- there. W e- of plenty of eligible inen, both total tion in the Army than he would get in civili_ an liJe. :-:---- abstainers and _ otherwise, whom we are trying-to per-

1177. In your opinion, the percentage would very suade, -but we cannot get them. few ?-Yes. I have had a fairly- wide experience of 119i. _ There are very- fe-w men wh.o_ were total returned men, because of my -position. abstainers before they_ have taken to drink

• 1178. I _ suppose that _quite a number of men ha.ve _ after they have entered the Army?-I_have known of _come to you who are· out of employment ?-Yes, a large -very Otit of my particular unit of 102 men, number. . - - I cannot say that I know of qne man who started drink-

117·9. What is the princ!pal cause of so many ing after _joining. __ ...

out of wo:rk ?-Qne cause is that' work is not a:vailable l!J.a.2. -Do you know of cases of men who were inclined _ for them. Another reason is that. if a man was phy- · to drink too before Jeaving- Australia, and who sically fit he 'would I].Ot be back. He must have some have --become more sober af.t¢rwards hardly know physical incapacity, otherwise he would still-be the _ how to answer 'that question_ - I have in mind one man .

Front, or would be retur11ed there. - who was· promoted to the position of Lance-Corporal.

1180. Do you think that the drinking habits of any He was a heavy drirrker before; -but when he was pro­ of them have interfered with them ?-No more than he stop-ped drinkiJlg. It to pull him up.

would occul' in civil life. - Some men -who are out of However, it is hardly fair to say that the fa-ct of his · work, and a'J..e about no-t being able to get being in the Armyhad the- effect- of- ma:King 4,im more

employment, cannot get it because of drink, but -they sober. - " - ·

were in exactly the same position before they jqined tne 1193. Is it the younger men o.r the older men who Army. - __ - · ___ are more inclined to i-nclulge in -liquor.s ?-

- 1181. ·They would represent a very small percentage? · In my experience, it is the ,older men. _ -Very small indeed. , -- · 1194;- Is ·there a - tendency -among the older men to

1182. Do you think that the drinking habits of the induee the younger :men· to have a glass occasionally? people generally would tend to make -it more difficult . ..:::.I have not noticed it. ""

for the to grapple successfully with -. the 1195. Do you think that the "shouting" habit lias

problem of repatriation-?-I do not see that they will ::lny effect on the Under the "shout­

do so. There are bound ' to be _some failures. When ing" habit, a man· " shquts" for the cr.owd, but you you take men from every class of the community, you do not get /that _ opportunity -in the " Army because, are always bound tQ have trouble with a small 'per- unless you are on J€}ave, you" -aTe constantly under c(mtage. -... restraint. , '

1183. Would you suggest -anything in the way of re- 1196. Since your return, have you no'ticed -that civi-·stricting the sale of liquor, or wol_!J:d you allow the law lians are inclined to ask soldiers to drink with them? to stand as ifis now?-=-If the law is administered as it '-I have commei].ted_oil that myself. now _ stands it would be unsatisfactory, but I would ob- - -1197. If an "anti-shouting" law was brought into

ject to any restrictions being pla,eed on the soldier -that op(}ration, would "it have a tendency to- m!_tigate the - . are not placed on th_e balance of the population. For evil to any Anti-shouting " legislation is very

the sake of a few who mav offend it-is not fair to infer easily evaded. From what I was told in England, it is that sol

· _ 1184. By Senator Buzacott.-When you came back studied jts operation there, but from rema-rks- made by from the · Front ·were the hotels closed at the diff_ erent - others who came out .(:m the ship with me, I am sa tis­ ports of call?-Yes. We _ called at Cape Verde Island, :fied that the law was very easily: evaded in England. Durban, and Fremantle . . - We anchored in the stream 1199. Do you consider that the early closing of hotels at Freman tie. - has had a good effect ?-Yes.

1185. When a troopship is coming through, do you- 1200. By Senator Guy._:_Jn Egypt, in the wet can-th,ink it is necessary to close ihe hotels?-Yes, teens was there a stipulated quantity of liquor that a so many men are crippled on vessels returning. man' could rnot exceed ?-The quantity was not stipu- · ,118'6. Have you giYen -any consideratiop. to the ques- - !ated, but police on duty, an_d

tion oi the military authorities taking over a hotel and 1f a man gave of becoming mtoxwated, he was running it for soldiers_ only ?-:-I have not it. not servgd. In add:tlon fo that, the men had to form

I have found that under military control have a queue and take thmr turns. If a man wanted another·

always been satisfactory, so far· as Tegulating the quan- drink, he to go back to end of the -queue. As tity of liquor for each soldier is concerned. - far as possible, the _Sergeant m charge prevented any

man going in too .often. There were only two canteens for 4,000 They did- not open until 5.30 p.m.,

and they clo3led af 8- p.m. - _ 1201. What liquors were sold ?-Beer or shandy. 12'02. Were there no spirits sold ?-No.

73

1203. ·w-ere any wines sold ?-Not in Egypt. They could be purch_ ased in F:r:ance. 1204. What would be the strength of the ' neer ·sold? -I do ·not know. I never tasted it. -- , 1205. Would it ·be about the same quality as· that to w.hich the men were accustomed in Australia ?-I think it was about the same in Egypt; but it was lighter in France. ' 1206. The r-um ration that you mentioned would be a very small quantity ?-About a dessert-spoon full. Of course, it was particularly strong. - _1207. Hut it would be pure?-Yes. 1208. Were you in Cairo?-Yes.

so evaded. That was the gmernl impression

among the officers-at the hospital where L was a patient in· England; -12:22. How do you- regard the 6 o'clock closing of · hotels?-That _is a different proposition. · :tf _th tee or

four-men go into a hotel together, it is eas_y for them to have three Or -fou_ r drinks by each paying for his OWll drink. Men who want to drink will get drink just the same. ' I believe that " anti-shouting" legislation will

tend to lessen the· consumption, but I do not think that it will lessen the injurious -eff-ect , of drink, because it will _not reach the class of people we want . to reach. 12.23. is a certain amount of trouble at all

places where vessels call ·through men drinking to cess; do you not think that this is brought by _

people -" shouting" for them: ?--=--I do not know. I ha-ve had no experience in that matter, because our boat re" mained in the stream at Fremantle, and we .disembarked at Melbourne. No transports have landed tro,ops at

Hobart since I- ·have retu rned, except . after the hotel:j were closed.

12'09. ·The m n drank a different .spirit there?____,... Yes; tha_t is where the evil _ was done, and where the wet canteen showed Its greatest benefit. When the- men got _ into Cairo, and did not- want drink so much,_ t4ey did not get so much bad liquor. · _ DQ you think that thing-s have improved -with

1210. It was principally spirits thaf they got in regard to the drinking habits of the men from the time Cairo ?-I cannot say that, because they· could buy beer that you went away?--I do not notice any difference, and shandy; but, a_ cc.ording to the _men who used to except. that the closing of the hotels at 6 o'clock has drink them, the spirits were- of a very inferior qt1ality. made a difference, which _I noticed on return.

_ 1211. In your experience, you must have noticed a 1225. Did you go ashore at Durban?-Yes. good. de al of immorality and contraction _o£ -venereal 1226. As an offic-e r, you had a permit?-Yes. disease?- Yes; particularly aroupd Cairo. _1227. Did any of th'e men get there ?-I think

1212. Do you think that it was about largely ' that two men on the boat showed signs of liql)-Or. The _ by men .indulging in drink, and being thrown off their hotels were closed· to all soldiers in uniforn1, so that . guard?-No. L would not like- to say that that was some one, most probably, brought the liquor to them. tlre -case, bEtcause I have . known young men who were _1228_. By Senator Lt.-Colonel Bolton.-Among those

· temperate in their. habits who contracted venereal recruited during your time,

1213: Do you not think that aiL " ·a'nti-shoutinK" I have seen nien come to enlist whom we refused to Act _wou!d minimize _the evil, of drinki--ng?-=----It would take," kn_owing their habits; others have been passed in prevent a man who has an occasional drink from going _and rejected in camp for alcoholism. · in; bUt the man who wanted a drink would still go in .., 1229. Some men, who would probably have been good

and pay for his own, stay drinking as long as he soldiers,_ would have .joined but for the drink ?-Yes. chose. . That was -the in E:i1gland. 1230. Do you. regard_ the success or failure of the

1214. Would not that . lessen th_ e consumption of Allies in this war as oeing of vital importance to the - would, but it would not lessen the harmful welfa·re of the people of this community?-If I had

effect . .on the man who drinks; whereas the man who not thought so, I would not have enlisted. drinks very little wQuld not be affected. _ 123J . Is it so important as to demand the maximum

1215. Have. you had l:my experience of the effect of military -effort on the part of, the Oommonw.ealth ?-­ drink · on returned men who -are suffering from shat· Most tered nerves ?-It has _a v ery bad effect _on them. 1232. Do you believe that the necessary maximum 1216. It takes very much less ·drink to make. those men effort can be made by the people of the Commonwealth intoxicated ?-I do not know that it does, but certainly if they continue to spend the sum of £20,000,000 a year

the bad effects on the men are -'Yorse. on liquor?-I do_ not think that the amount of _ money

7. Do you find that · frem kindly inten- spent -on alcohol 1vill have very- much effect on the

tions, treat returned men to drink ?-They do; but more of tbr war. .

- in the than in the country. - _ 1233. You ao not think that the expenditure of

1218. Seeing that there is some risk of injuring £20,000,000 per aimum on liquor will lessen our effort in returned men; do you think .that it is desirable that we this ot sufficiently to make any material differ­ should-strive to protect them from thi_ s mistaken kind- ence. ness on the part of. civilians?-yes; if you could pos- 1234. In order to devote our full strength and re­ sibly ·do it without_ placing too great a r-estriction on . sources to this very necessary military effort, would you

the rest of the -community for the sake of so few. be in favour -of prohibition during the wad---1 am not I · d h · 10. b d i--r• favour of prohibition. · · 1219. F ave you any 1 ea ow lt cou - e one.- - 1235. Do you think it would make any di.tt!?:renc·3 in . N.o ; I cannot suggest a remedy. -

our effort?-Not very much. ·

1220. In vour recruiting experience, have you met 1236. Although yo u say that there are some recnlitE cases where" men have been diffident about enlisting who would have gone to the Fron t if it had not been for througP, the I ear that there would be temptations at· drink?---:-The percentage is so small that it would not home _ through drink in respect to ·their wives and make any difference to the Allies. I do not know more families ?-No. than about ten men in Tasmania who have come under

122l. By Senator Colonel Rowell.-If three or four my personal observation that haY e been rejec;ted men go into a hotel, the tendency is for every one to - account. - - · -

" snout" a round of drinks, wher-eas if the "anti-shout·· 1237. You say that the drinking ha-bit. of returned ing" law is in force, there will -probably be only one soldiers has had a very serious effect on th0m .

drink ?---If you can enforce the but it Ejeems to me some of those who are suffering from shell sho ck.

7.4

1238. I suppose that you will admit that-90 per cent. noticed that at Ismailia thel'e were more drunken men of these who have gone through a 'modern war have. com:lng _back there we.re at Moascar. ·They bought their mental and physical condition to what is the liquor in Ismailia, and it was of an inferior quality.

• under the normal ?--I admit that. 1255. Beer or spirits ?--=-Both in I smailia, .but they

1239. Even in the case of strong-minded men ?-They could only get beer in the canteen. are not in the same niental or physical ' condition. . _ -

-1240. The average retu rned soldier is, physically and 1256. Your experience is that when men in the camp Y l 11 where a dry canteen situated secured leave they mentally, abnormal?- es, t 1ey are a · more or less , , came back in a state of intoxication iil greater numbers affected td some degree. than the case with men _who h ad the advantage .of a

1241. In view of your opinion in regard to the wttt canteen in their· camp?.:__ Yes, not on1y there, but at effect of liquor on returned soldiers, do you be_lieve that the Zeitun Camp. '

unrestricted access to liquor will increase the difficul- ties of the problem of repatriation ?-I-do not believe in 1257'. You cannot gi \Te actual numl1ers in support of un restrict-e n. access. to liquor. The regulations, which we your ?-No, I can speak -only from observa-- have in force should he a sufficient safegi1ard in the tion. The impression left on my mind was that we had

majo·rity of _9ases. trouble with men coming in late, or slightly

1242. If returned soldiers were unable to get liquor; , Ismaiha than when we had wet canteens.

would it help to solve the problem of repatriation ?-It _ 1258. Do you think that the fac of having drink con­ would in some sligh t degi7ee, but whether soine men re- · tinually in evidei1ce before young· men induces them to ceivecl drink .or not would not make them.'rnore fit. ' sample it, and probably become addicted to the drink-1243. The question is whether it would help ?-It ing habit ?-I do not think so . The -vvet canteen was . would, in some slight-degree. · only open after 5.30 p.m., an_d it was closed at 8 p.m.

--- 1244. By Senator Grant.-vVhy' do the offic-ers issue It had tlie advantage _ men who wanted a drink

a n1m ration to men on active se-rvice ?-When you go get a c_ouple f?Very night, and consequently they into- action, you d-o it under abnormal conditions; you did not feel -inclined to go .oil a burst in the town when go as lightly buidened as po ssible, and with the least pay day came round. . 1

amount of clothing that _you -can ·carry. As the ground 1259. Could men get a drink in the canteen ·wheu they is more or less clamp, and things are _generally cold, you came back from the town ?--=-No. req\1ire ,some order to prevent you from · . 1260. Then the faet that a so ldier eould get one or

feehng Jhe-effects of . . , . two. drinks at the canteen before setting out for the town

1

" 1245., rum lSSl).ed. pnor to. or a in that happy -fi:ame of mind that he could

stunt · I have nm l ... nown _It to be Imbibe carefully, and be m a much more sober state

.. to an attack. Rum :·atwns on a than the man who was i)l a camp where,..there was a dry

and on special occaswn_s d_urmg guard or ca-nteen ?-Not necessarily. They had leave /o:Q.ly one

duty m very cold weather. I was at P9zie.res night a week. It meant th-at men could have a drink

and Mouquet Farn:-, and on no occaswn 111 my bf!,ttahon every day, _ and they did not- have_ the same -desire for - was Issued pnor to an. attack an vance. We , drink when going into the to1vn as they would have after

It Issued on two occasi?ns wh;le holding support , ·goi!fg for week without any, aud then going into the .,

hnes because of the excessive cob, and because the town, where they could get it in ·unlimited quantities. ground was so damp. - . . - 1261. Have you lYeard that wealthy people who keep

1246. Was the rull?- ratwn beneficial to the soldi.ers ?.,- go od cellars become more addicted to the drinking habit It _saved dozens of_ hves. !T :Vas the only than the' ordinary labourer, "Vvh.9 oilly gets access tp the

I -ev.er

1

dra.nk .as. medwm_e. hotel,..whel!- ·pay ari:iyes ?-No. - . . .

LA7. the theu ratwn or did J2o2. Do you thmk It would . be co nducive to

they pass on to the1r; mates per cent. of if beer and spirits were made so and so cheap

the non-drmkers took It "' that labourer- cbulcl keep a well-stocked cellar?-

1248. What became of the rum 1ssuecl to the other ::> No. - _ ·

per ?-SometiJ?-es they. passe4 it to their 1263. Do you think the labourer is made up of a dif­

·others-clicl not take It It came along. The 95 per fere:rit make-up from that of .the man who does not

cent. tuok it as· a medicine. It was only about a dessert- _work ?-No. spoonful. r • .... . 1264. If the labourer, if bullt of tlre same· make-up

1249. "You said that yo-ur men able to .purchase as the man· who does_ not work, why not a well­

wine and beer fron; houses .m France?-Yes: stocked . cellar in the labourer's rented cottage induce -In some cases, if they served a soldier who was d:r:unk hini to become of very· temperate habits as the cellar of tJieir premises were closed. They had to be very careful the we-]J-to-do individual does to him ?-I do not know to see that too much was not sold to any ,man.. that the ·well-to-do people are ,c)£ very temperate habits. ·-

1250. Did you have much drunkenness ·you 1265. How many men have- been returned to Tas-

were in' those villages ?-Some, hut no_ t excessiVe, and mania since August, 1914 ?-I do no,t know. _ usually onlJ- the. day . . 1266. Can you tell us the of men ou whose

12_51. Did the effect of their gettmg drunk 1n any w.ay account an effort is being made to settle them on the interfere- with their usefulness as me:tnbers of the umt? lands of Tasmania ?-No, but ' I think the number js -It may prevented, possibly, 1 per cent. at the very small .. Some men have been assisted to est.ablish outside going on parade next day. . small bus inesses, and othe:rs have ·been assisted to settle

1252. Do I miderstand that in Egypt there was a wet on farms, but I cannot give the actualiiumbers. canteen at one camp and a dry canteen at another ?-At 1267. Would it induce r eturned soldiers to settle on ISmailia there was rio canteen of_ any description, but -the ·lands of Australia if they we.re made cheap, and . at- Moasca r, 2 miles the other side of Ismailia, there easily available?-Yes, if they were close to a railway

were both wet and dry canteens. and' to a market, and if the land was cleared. My ex-

1253. When the I):len at which a dry canteen was perience is that returned soldiers do not want bush situated ob tained leave, did they return to camp intoxi- land. '

cated in· greater numbers ?-Yes, that was my experi- 1268. Then, in your opinion, it will be advisable 11v c ence. · only to secure che;:tp and good lar;J.d, but also to clear it,

1254. Have you any re_cords of the actual numbers?- and give therr'l such a start that they will be placed in a No. ' I speak from my as b eing in charge of po sition to themselves imm e diately?-Yes. I

a platoon? and, i11 some cases, in of the guard. I thiuk that t.D.ey should be given !and' already cleared.

75

, . I . / -

1269. By t he Cha.innan.- In Egypt, were_ th@re any surprise to me. Soldiers on the whQle compare very camps with a .dry canteen and no wet canteen?:.._ When fayorably with any other set of men. The returned we returned from Gallipoli and camped at Ismailia soiClier is specially subject to temptation owing to the there was no canteen established. We remained there · system of "shouting." ' A-- great many people seem

for aboht five weeks, and were then t r_ ansferred to think that the only way in which they could do a_ chap MoaSicar, on tl!e other side of the town. a good turn is· to "shout" for him. I get over

1270. There some camps with dry canteen the -fact that there is a certain amount of drunkenness

and no wet canteen ?-Yes. · , among so ldiers, just as there ·is among any other set of

12'71. V\Thy did some camps have dry _canteens, and men, and that ·some have been turned down through some wet canteens?-- ! think it watJ more a matte-r for alcoholism; also that a _ great-many of those whet have , the _ officer- commmiding the brigade. If he displayed co ntracted venereal diseas_ e will tell yo u that drink vvas · .sufficient energy to get a canteen, one established, indirectly the cause; but apart frem that, I should say

but not ptherwise. The officer s got a canteen estab- that the soldiers are a temper ate lot of me_n, and I d o lished at Moa.scar. As a rule, the· Y .M.C.A. run-a dry not think that the efficiency of the vamp h ere has been canteen in most very greatly affected by drink. __

1272. And i\nless- they ca. n e along to run a dry can- 12_ 86. I take it that you have h ad some experience of te..en there was none?-We h_ ad none at Ismailia except general public outside Tasmania?-Yes, that is what the Y:M.C.A. was ·running. ' When we were at what I mean when I say that it is really a -matter of Moascar the 4th Brigad,e was attached_- to · the New surprise that there is so very litt le drunkenness in the

Zealand Division . I t was separated from the rest of camp. 0{ course, -it has. a dry catnteen. Australians.

127::3. Do I understan d froiQ yo u that-' the b-rmy made 1287. Generally speaking, Australia is temperate absolutely no attempt , to deal with dry canteenls? _-so compared with other M\mtries ?-I was rather thinking far as I am aware, it did not. were dry canteens ·/ Q.f a_ lot e5f footballers, or any other set of m en. The

at Tel-el-Kehir, and also ··stores , hut they were in charge soldie,rs are only on le.av,e 0 P. oerta,1p. days in the week, of private business people, vvith a fixed schedule of and under or:dinary circumstances yo u would naturally prices arranged for by th e militm;y authorities. I a few of them-- to he affected. There was very

understana that the Y.l\!LO.A. also had their reading- dr_unkenness with the L Wth Battalion- on· the troop train. - rooms and dry canteen there. 1274. If it had not been for the Y .:M.C .A. there would 1288. If there are 10.0 me1 to be drilled, and out of not have been a dry in some of the ciunps. ?-The them five are the worse for liquor, would it be more

Y .:M.O:A. vve.re the salvation of the soldiers in for the officer to train the other ninety-five ?-I

other kindred- bodies also, but not to the extent of the suppose it would be. ·

Y .M .. O.A . They provided recreation, and amuse!llent You claim that the percentage of the

places, wher e you could buy chocolates, and hav..e facili- -soldiers who dr1nk 1s worse than the percentage to be ties for reading, and writing home. . found among any body of men outside ?--No.

1275. If that been done things w.ould have , 1290. And that percentag·e has -not with

. been very much worse in _Egyr)t than they vvere 1-The h · t e traming of the so ldiers ?_:_:_I suppose that it inter-

att:r:.actions of the cities would haye drawn mor e men feres a little, but I do not think it does very much. away. _

127 6. Does that speak very: highly for the military .., 1291. Thexe has not been very much trouble in authorities ?-ltr do es not. I have always maintained - Qlaremont Camp during the last two years th3;t you that. have been ·ther_ e ?--:-No, very little.

12'77. By S enator- Lt.-Oolonel Bolton.---:-Where you on - :1292. The men have -week-end' leave ?-They have Lemnos Island ?-For one week -after the evacu ation. leave __ on Tuesday night and Friday night, and 50 per - 1278. Did it come under your notice that some of the cent. _have week-end leave. 1

b:rigade had formed dry c;1nteens vVe -wer e at- 1293. I s the camp ' in 1auy worse condition on - the tached to the N mv Zealand Forces. They had no dry Monday after the wenk-e11d leave, or is it just normal?--canteen. - - - I think i:. is normaL I have returned to camp on the .

1279. Did it com A under_your notice that the Brigadier troop trams, and I have not seen very much to complain and cornnianding officers of units formed committees; abo-qt. Ther e might be th r ee or four men drunk out of and establish ed dry canteens ?--No, I was not a f ew hundred. - · :

to _the Australjans. I have already said that -it was a - · ·

matter for i h e officer in command. W e were an Aus- 1294. Have you g·i ven any thought to the question of tralian b!:_igade te5' the New Zealand Division, a wet canteen as against a dry canteen ?-I have not had and there was no attempt :made to e tablish a canteen in any experience of wet canteen:3. our cas-e until we- r'eached Moascar. 1295. Woufd you advocate the establishment of a wet

, 1280. By .Senator - Colonel Rowell.--:- you in canteen, or would you prefer the dry ?-I think the d-ry Cairo when the trouble took place ?--No ; shortly after- .- canteen is the better. .

wards. . . 1296. Do you think that the wet canteen would pro,..

nde an extra temptation ?-I should imagine so. I .

think that, as a rule, men a r e-better, and·do better work without drink. '

John Walter _ B ethune, Qhurch of_ England Chaplain, · swo rn and examined-. . . ' . 1281. By the Chairma:n.---.-Are yo u -a resident . chap­ lain?-Yes.

128_ 2. Have you been to t he Front with the Forces?-No. _

1283 . Have you bee:ri' a chaplain for any length of time?- For two years. - " 1

1284. Have you · been in camp practically the whole of that time?-Yes. 1285. Will you give us a statement of yo ur· ideas as to whether drink affects the efficiency or the -morale of

the troops, or whether it makes _it more difficult for the Tasmanian -military authorities to train the men ?-The little drunkenness that ther e is' iu camp is a matter of

1297. Has it come under your not ice that some young fellows who have been practically teetotallers have given way to liquor after enlisting?-I have known cases of that sort, but not very many.

1298._ By S enator Guy.-Do yo u notice any change . in the h abits of the men in camp, so far as drink is

concerned, between the present time and earlier times? -I have not noticed aiiy di fference, except that the numbers are small now. 1299. The closing' of hotels at 6 o'clock was not in oper_ ation when yo u first went into 0amp ?-No, but that law h as no eff ect on the so ldiers at Olarem01it, hecauRe th ey are all "travellers " when they are in Hobart. I

·.

76 - -

1300. Have you no ticed people ·along the railway line - 1323. You believe that there should be s-ome restric--giving men on troop trains liquor ?-Only once, on a - tion, and that it could be done by shouting"

train going to Launceston. _ [ fa1rcy tlre drink came legislation would be a g.ood reform .

from the hotel at a wayside station: _ 1324. There is need for :r_eform ?-Yes-; I think there

1301. Do you frequently travel on troop trains ?-I -is for every Dne. have very often gone up north with .them. There is an 13.25. In the event of such a law being non-effective, officer in charge who generally regulates that sort of would you sti!l go further?-! suppose -_-I would do so, thing, and will not allow any bottled stuff to be sold. out I would hke to see it tried first. _ · · - -

They notify all the hotels. 1326. D.o you .thiiik it would be difficult t e> give -effect

1302. Is it not a fact that the soldiers - get drink to an anti-" shouting" law?-There wo:uld be some ·somehow or other ?-I have seen very -little of it; only difficulty, . but 1 think it has already been . met elae-on that occasion. - where. - - _

· · 1303. When you reached I .. did· you ·notice 1327. The drinking h·abits of the will be an

=-any of the men under the influence of liquor ?-No. I important factor in dealing with the problem of re-

have noticed none on th__.e trains. Of course, afterwards patriation ?_::._Yes. _ . . ·

I -may have seen -them in the .day-time. - 1328. Would you regard it as too great a sacrifice

1304. After-they ar;·ived?-Yes-. . to ask the people of the Commonwealth to, est-ablish

1305. But not result of having -drink Qn the · prohibition in the iriterests of the i·eturned soldier who trains?-No. has fought fm; his not if it _...were neces-

1306. Have you had any experience of men who have sary for the Empire and the· returned soldier. -returned wounded go to the R oseneath Hospital. ..1329. On troop trains you saw -little evidence of men There are also returned men· in camp. having liquor?:::......:. I saw little evidence of men h'aving

too much liquor. - · _ · __.

1307. Have you noticed that a big proportion of / 1330. Have you ah y_kriowledge of civilians handing . - them suffer from shattered nerves ?-A good · number- of bottl_ es of liquor to men on troop trains ?-No, except them do. on that one · occasjon that I mentioned. I do not know

1308. · I suppose that the authorities at the Roseneath where it came from, or whether it was ju,St h·anded. into Hospital do not allow liquor to men in that condition 1 the carriage. - . - .. -

-I do not know very much about the regulations- at .., 1331. Where hotelkeepers are prohibjted froni sup­Roseneath. They are very in that regard at the plying liquor, would you be surprised. t o learn that camp. civilians _buy it aitd · ha11d . it to the soldiers in the 1309. I ca _11 gatlier from your that we are a train have seen no evidence of it in Tasmania , temperate people in .Australia, and that ·we WOllld_ be but I ·would not say. that, it does m)t occur. still better if we virere all total abstainers ?-I do not 1332. By B_enator · Gran£.-Can you us any re­_ know that I do feel in that way. I am not very definite cords shovving the number of ai'rests - of civilians in on that ·question. Hobart _ for drunkenness during -the f)a st three yea,rs ? 1310. You do not.- advocate prohibition ?--:No. -No. - -1311. But you consider _that -anti-" shouting" would , f3i3. Can_ you - g·iv; us any showing the be an advantage?-Y es. I i rould- advocate it if it could be brought .in. ......_,_ number of soldiers who have b.eeli arrested for drunken-- Iless. during the past three _years ?-No. - - . :: ·1312. By S enator Oolone l Rowe ll.-You have said that if 5 per cent . of the me.n \Vere the WOrSe for liquor -1334· -Jf prohibition was brought about during the conti.nuance of the war,' resulting in a great disturbance it would militate -against the efficiency of. the ' parade; - do you that the 5 per cent. would be-allowed to be and very considerabJe loss- to the owners of hotels., to on parade ?:_No. If they \vere obviously under the )j censees; and to the employees, would you be in fayour . fl f r ..... 'of compensating the barmaids ' for -the los_ s of their m uence 0 Iquor they would not, be on parade. - billets ?-I would be- in favour - of co'mpensation -all 1313. By -Lt.-Colonel 'Bolton.-Drinking through. not peculiar to the soldier ?-No. · 1314. The Tasmanian troops compare favorably witli 1335· .Including the barmaids ?-Yes. I suppose other sets of men ?-That ,is so. · they also be compensated. ,131.5. And you had in your-mind footballers 1336. Why do men in camp persist in going into any numb.er of men . neighbouring -towns inst.ead of staying in - 1316. You have had experience in the training of l'here is-not-hing much to do in camp at night,' ·and at foot bailers and other athletes?-Yes. the week-end. , _ 1317. An - important feature .in the tral.Iiing of - ' 1-33'7. _ Have any steps been taken. by the churches to is a restriction on what they, eat or drink?- -create and maintain counter-attractions in camp in That IS so. , order to induce soldiers in rather than go 1318. Is it not jl;LSt as important to have certain re- \ - town, 'where_ they are beset by all tempta­strictions on the training · of soldiers ?-It is most im- twns ?-In most of the camps _tf!ere -Is a soc1al hall. portant. - We /have one and the Y.M.C.A. have another. 1319. The athletic · demand upon t he soldier is just Have .... of many as s evere as that upon the footballer?-It ought to be; gomg mto- whiCh. sur­ it is more important. ·round them m Hobart?-They do not make an.y di:ffer-1320. Therefore you-· would not object to the soldier ence to leave men. Naturally want _theu leave being restricted _as to his liquor in order to get the away-_frQm the camp. Of coursR they can best results out of him as a . soldier ?-No, but I do m If they w1sh to do so. not think it is fair to pick him out for special restric- _ 1339. You realize that if- prohibition was ' brought tions if it can be avoided. · about it would create an immense disturbance as far 1321. It is rather imposing a penalty on the 'soldier . as ·rested interests are concerned, ail.d tllat a proposition ' because he is patriotic?-That is so. - - o:€- that -kind would: be very stoutly objected to by the - 1322. Therefore the only desirable method of arriv- widows whq have shares in breweries or might run · ing at this would be to treat every one alike, and have hotels, and, generally speaking, by people interested i11 universal restriction ?-Every one should be treated the -liquoi· trade and You realize· that any · alike. · ' party taking a proposition of .that kind to the electors

533

woulg . rup - a very se:r:ious -risk of bei11g it was on the Friday I cannot say that I

I -understand that, but I do not t}link vested interests have found · it so . . There may have been exceptional of any qne, should stand in the wa;f of the Empire. cases, where men, owing to have -not been as '

1340:' _It is generally that the liquor traffic capable of being as smart as the others, but that :would is injurious to the male population, and_ as the soldiers not affect the_ rest. ·

are drawn from the male population their health is . 1353. If 5 per cent. of the mer1 have been -enjoying --·also ought to put forward · themselves dl)ring the week-end, would it not interfere

. our maximum effort du_ rmg the present war, do you with the training operations · of the squad per

not think that the Government would justified in , cent. might, but it would depend upon how ba-d they _ taking any _steps to abolish an evil or that kind 1-If it :ls necessary to the _ E ;mpire, the Government would be ju·sti:fied in abqlishing it. _ .___ - _ _ - ·

1341. Is the drink_ iniurious to the

of the Australian. secti_ .on of the Allied armies ?-Unre­ strained drink traffic would be injurious, but I' do _not think that a regulated drink traffic :would be.'.

were. 1354. Are you a total abstainer?-Yes. 1355. You did not notice that -drink interfered with ,your training of your men?-No.

/ Did it interfere -perceptibly with 'the efficieney . of the men in Egypt ?-No. I had one or two bad in­ dividual cases in my own men, but, taking them as a whole, there Was very little drinking. I do not know 1342. Does the drink traffic as it exists in Australia injure -the Auslralian section of the Allied. I should say that on the whole it is injurious- it

exists to-_9.ay. _ -

'1343. By -Senator Buzg,c ott.-Statements have be'en made to the effect that some of the wives of soldiers spend their allowance in drink and neglect their

fariiilies. Have you found many such cases ?-I have _,_

· whether that was due to the fact tha-t leave was re­ stricted, or-to the fact that certain -places were put out _ -of _ b_ ounds. - There were bad cases, but- not among _my ·men.

found thr'ee in all. - - -

1343A.-Where did those women get tne drink?­ l do not know.

- Lieutenallt- James Oliver Storey, Officer in Charge of Ca;np, sworn and

1344. By the Chai1·man.-Have you been to the ?_:_Yes. r-left on the May, 1915. · -

1345. W m'e you assoeiated with the _ military forces the war the BOer War for

and then I was on the unattached list. -1346. After the war started, -how long were you in camp ?-A.bout three months. _" - -

1347. What position did you occupy?-r was a -private. I had bee!l struck off the roll for not 1·eport!ng to the Department. I was not aware of that when I came down asked_ to be transferred from the re­

serve to the aetive list, Bo cthat I -might get away to the Front. _ When they up the records -they- found

that I ha_ d been, struck off, and I was advised to make . an explanation iri writing. In the meantime they pro­ ·mised to do what they eoulQ<{or me. I waited for three weeks for a reply from Head-Quarters in Melbourne, · and then, as no -reply had co_ me to hand, fearing that if

I waited 3;_ny longer I wQuld be too late for the war, I decided to enter camp as a private. Word came to me from Head-Quarters about three davs before I left ·fo ; the :[ront. In the meantime I was non-commissioned officer. _

1348. Did you go . to we went to Egypt

from Sydney. As far as I can remember we were there about a month or a little IQ.Ore, and then we went to the -We went from there to France, and I

came back here from France. 1349. What do you mean by saying that you are officer in charge of ?-I am in charge of re­

turned soldiers awaiting discharge or awaiting medical treatment. 1350. You most to do with returned men ?-I

deal with all the returned men. ·

1351. When./you were in camp as sergeant you had to deal with the training of men; did you find that drink placed any difficulties in the way of training the men or of bringing about general efficiency ?-It did not affect

their efficiency or training, except in a f ew individual cases. .. ·

1352. Suppose men had been out on leave for a day or two, and had been drinking, but not to the extei{t that they cannot go on parade, would that fact render it more difficult to drill the squad on the Monday. than

1-357. Your men, were very little affected by drink?­ Very little indeed. _ 1358. Would that apply generally to the troops ?-I would not say that. Some were very _ bad in Egypt. - I · do riot say it from what I -actually saw, but from reports I read. I was very little in Cairo.

Rave the l'eturned men made any complaints

to you in regard to the treatment they have received at the hands of the Government?-No. 1360: Do you know any cases of those, men having been unemployed after their discharge ?-No. I really lose sight of them after they have been discharged.

'1361. By Senator Colonel Rowell.-When __ did you get to Egypt ?-On the 15th August, 1915. -

. 1362. vV--ere you there when any of disturbances took place ?-No, we- were there just after the second disturbance at Wazza. · ...

1363. Was-th·at place broken d_ own _at the time you were there appeared to be rrom a dista:riee. -

_ 1364. What camp did you go into ?-'The Abouzia near Heliopolis. - / '

1365. Was there a wet canteen there ?-Yes. · ,1366. Did you notice any great irregularities at that camp ?---:-'-On occasion,. prior to some men marching; they broke mto the canteen .and made free with the drinks. Tliat was the only occasion. -· 1367. What canteen was it ?-I think it ,was the can­

teen of the 25th Battalion. 1368. 'Fhe:re were battalion canteens?-Yes, as far as

I ean remember, we had our own. 1369. Do you have any trouble with -the men under your command at Claremont through drii1k ?-No. When they are going out on leave, I give them a word of

advice. I do not know of a case where a man has come · back the worse for drink. 1370. Do you deal with the discipline of those men? -Yes. ·

1371. By Senator Lt.-Colonel Bolton.-How long were you in a training camp here· before you were made sergeant ?-About two months. 1372. And how many men were in camp at that time? -Between 800 and 1,-0DO. -

. 1373. Was evening leave or week-end general at that time ?-It was on Fridays arid Sundays at that time if I remember correctly. · '

1374. You have a distinct recollection of the early morning parades?--:-Yes. _ 1375. Did you notice, as a private or as a non-com­ missioned officer, that a section ·of the men in the squad

who had been on leave the evening ·before looked sleepy · and inactive, and belched sour beer off their stomachs, and were not inclined to do the physical and extension exercises in the morning ?-I-can remember some cases.

/

78

1376: That did not help the squad to they be- inconvenienced .by _prohibition ?-Yes, X think the.r longed r-N o. One inan could keep the _:whole squad should 'be . . / . I .

hack. ;1.397. Would you' include the barr..1en employed 1n.fhb .. e

- 1377. Had it been the habit of those men in training hotels?-I do no-t -know. I suppose they could get JO s · to turn out at early morning parades smartly the train- anywhere. . . .

ing would have been done in less time, and with better 1398. Would- you be in favour cf compensatmg the results ?--Some of the physical exercises were pretty owners of the 1€1-nd which the . st_and if_ it is

severe even on men who had not been drinl5:ing. · _ found · that has reduced the sellmg of .

137S. There was another. important bearing this con- the land, while allowing the barman who loses h1s JOb to dition led to; men feeling like that in the morning had get nothing ?-I think that the owner ;;;hould get the not that respect for good order and discipline that they difference in the value of his land. -

should have had; they did not -have self-control, and 1399. But you do not think that tl:le employees, sur.h · could not put up with restraint; they were as the barmen, or or others who do the

to defy authority, and so affect the general d1sc1phne of - work should get compensation; because t-hey can get JObs the squad; did you find that to be the case?-I cannot elsewhere ?-I

1379. While you were in camp were there, any dis- drinking to excess thr_ough being in the /would turbances of a g_ eneral character ?-I do not remember you be in favour of the Government providmg _ them any disturbance of any kind. _ on their return with a salary equal to that they were

1380. There were the · usual abs{/nt-without-leave earning prior to enlistment-that is apart from pen-cases ?--Yes. sions might not be so reliable as before.

1381. Were most of the absent-without-1 ave.cases due 1401. Have any returned Tasmanians bee;n -settle4 -to drink ?-I could not say. upon- the lands of Tasmania ?-I know of four cases;

1382. Did you ever attend orderly-room as sergeant 1402 .. ]{ave any of those· men relinquished their hold-- of your platoon, or as a witness ?-No. The first time ings on account of drink ?-I/ do ;not think so; they are I -attended orderly-room was in France.. still carrying on. _

1383. By Senator Grant.-How _many men did you 1403. If a soldier was in the habit of drinking to have under your control in France ?-A platoon of fifty _ excess prior to his' enlistmen.t, _and has been drinking· to fifty-six men. during the time he is -in the Army, will that have a

1384. -How often did - they get paid ?_:_Once a fort- tendency to prevent hi-s becoming an efficient settler?­ -night. , I cannot quite say. S_9me of the men seem to -get on

. 1385. How long were you in France with them.?- with the drink, but I think it would be detrimental, to About six' months. a certain extent.

For what portion of that time were .you back

1

1404. By ..Senator Buzacott.-Do you know of any

from the firing line ?-J-ust while we in billets cases of drunkenness_ among the 200 -returned soldiers after being relieved. - who have come under your charge in your present capa-

1387. When you w.ere in billets did your men have citj?-I do not know of a case where a man has come the oppqrtunity of purchasing French beers and back to dett.tils worse for liquor. /

-As a rule, all the hotels there were put out of bounds, 1405. Was there a wet canteen in the camp where and were posted where it was necessary. · you were stationed in -Egypt_?____::_ Yes.

1388. In those circumstances JQUr men could not get 1406. Pid yo11 find any one drinking to on

_access to the French wines and beers ?-No. _ account- of tlie. presence ofthat canteen ?-No, not__ in 1389. lJid you notice any of your men during these Egypt; but I noticed it in France. .

periods suffering from excessive drinking ?---One of my 140.7. Would not the presence of' a wet canteen pre­ men was very bad, but he was the only man in the vent m"tm who had been used> to. drinlilng all

platoon. He was certainly a nuisanceo - , lives from going into the city to get a drink ?-If they

1390. How many returned men have passed through_ gei:it in camp they may not go into town so often for your hands sin-ce you have been in charge of details the purpose of getting drink. -

here ?-A little over 200. 1407. Would it have a tendency to prevent so many

_1391. Has -the excessive use. of drink prevente.l the men from Being absent without leave ?--I could not say. departure of any members of the A.I.F. ?-I ,·.-.nnot Some of the men who are absent without leave do not remember any case. - . drink. ' - '

1392. Has use of drink to excess prevented the - 1409. It is_not drink that is the cause or all . the

speedy recovery of aRy returned _ soldier?--I believr> thvt absent-without-leave cases?-Ido not think so. Drink the chances of recovery of any man who has been lll '{s not the -in_ every /case. -

the 'habit of drinking are not the same as those of '3: man 1410. Were the hotels closed at the different ports of who does not drink. I was to1d in my own cat:e that ·if ,call when you were coming back ?-I do not know I had been an intemperate man I wou_ld not have lived. whether the hotels were closed. · We called at Durban, 1393. Had you been -a moderate drinker you woulci Sierra :Leone, and Fremantle, and disembarked at 1\ifel­

not, according to the· medical autho1·ities, had a chance -bourne. · The men were not allowed on shore at Sierra of living,- or do you mean that you would not have hal - Leone or Fremantle, and I do not know of any case of a chan,ce of living had you been an (ixcessive drinker?-- drunkenness ' that occurred among, them at Durban. _ I do not know whether it was. intended to be "moderat9 1411. Wlere the hotels closed there ?-I do not_know.

drinker." I take it it was meant to be "immoderate 1412. When did you return ?-In April last year. drinker," and that if I had been a moderate drinker it 1413. By Senator Guy.-Does your control extend to would have had some effect in pnwenting my recovery. the returned Il1en in Roseneath Hospital ?-No. I be-1394. It would have told against your speedy lieve that there is a good of drin'king goes on at

?-lit would have had that effect. · Roseneat_h .. men my control at Claremont

. · are under d1sciplme. - ,; ,

1395. Are you m fa\rour of wet (•an teens ?-No. 1414. Do you find that men who return · with shat-

1396. In the _event of prohibition brought tered nerves are .more easily affected by intoxicants would be m of compensatiOil for those 1n- ,was the case before they went away ?-I cannot say that.

terested busmess, or for all tl:_ wse who would be They do not come back drunk to the camp.

/ - '

I

_.,

Do not they get out on leave They

have what is ca,lled concession leave from Friday to Monday morning, and I do not know of a single _case where a man has come back under the influence of drink. It may be they have an officer over

them, but whatever the, :reason is there is a difference between them and the men at Rosenea th. _

' JA16. In Egypt you had only experience of a wet canteen, ·and fro1n that experience you think it would be better to be without' cme think so. My only ex­

perience of wet canteens was in Egypt. 1417. Have you heard froni any of your men that the civilians have treated them' kindly and given them drink in Hobart _

1418. The civilians "shout" fO-r them ?-Yes. 1419. Have you heard the men opinion­

that they prefer to do without this sort of thing, and that it is mistaken kindness towards them am re­

ferring to th& occasion when, the New Zealand transport called in here a little while ago . I believe a great

number o1 them behaved very badly through drink. 142_ 0. Through mistaken kindness on part of

Yes. ·

1421. Is tha an evil arising from drink?-Yes. 1422. Would you think it desirable to have an anti­ :' shouting" law in operatioi1 to . prevent excess arising m that way'?-:; Yes, .there should be no "shouting." I cannot speak from experience, but I unde1;staud that if a man goes into a hotel for a drink with a cr.owd which is "shouting," -he has t.o have half-a-dozen more drinks than he requires.-

1423. And that, would be an evil in the case of .a re­ turned man suffering fr_ om a breakdown in his nerves or one whose m(Jntal condition is not as as it ought to be?-Yes; I strongly advocate an anti-" law. · . - .

1424. Suppose that ;e admit that drink is' an evil to .a limited extent, would you deem it

v1sable, :m the Interest of t{te nation, to pr-ohibit it?­ Yes, looking at it from .the point that it is an evil. 1425. By Senator, Lt.-Colonez· Was there

any evidence of indulging in liquor on the trans­

port on which you left Australia ?-No. . 1426. Were there any cases of drunkenness charged m the orderly room-?-No. · ·

By_ Senator Colonel [lowell.-=-Are you a total

a'bstamer ?-Yes. ·

1428 .. Were you a total abstainer before you went away?-I have alway§ been a abstainer. 1429 and 1430. By -the Ghairrnan .-rAnd that 'is, why alive to-(!.ay ?-I think it has everything to do

With It.

The adjourned.

(Taken at Hobart.)

21sT FEBRUARY, 1918.·

Present :

Senator THoMAS, Chairman; Senatqr Lt.-CoJ. _Bolton, I Guy,

Senator Buzacott,- I Senator Colonel Rowell. Senator Grant, Captain Henry Charles Davies, Camp Co:rnlnandant, . Claremont A.I.F.

1431. By the Chairman.-You are in charge of the Camp ?-Yes; I am the office-r responsible for

the training, dis,cipline, and administration _of ·the A.I.F. troops irr Tasmania. I am responsible the

District Commandant. ' 1432. You have been to the Front?- Yes.

1433. What were you doing before you went to the Front ?--'-I was Administrator in the Gilbert and Ellice Islands. / ·

1434. What experience did you have with Australian troops before you went to the Front ?-N o·ne. I only came -here to re§ide in March, 1914, and I went. to the Front in October of that year.

143-5. You were in Egypt and then in Gallipoli ?-Yes. · · -

1436. -Did you go to France I returned from

Gallipoli in June, 1915, and since then I have been in T asmania. I was called up for duty on the 2nd

October, 1916, and 'was placed in charge of the Clare­ mont Camp. 1437. In view of your experience as' at

the camp, could you give us your opinion as to whether strong drink . affects the efficiency or morale of the troops ?-1 would rather give a statement from the figures we have in camp. The number of c.ases of

"drunkenness from the 1st January, 1916, to the 16th February, 1918, is '23. Those are cases of men with and convicted of drunkenness. 1438. Who convicted them-the civil or military

authorities ?-The military· authorities. 1439. Those would be cases of men arrested by the military police and' dealt with by the officers - at the camp?_:_ Y es,_ or men who came to camp drunk and were

arrested in camp. 'Phe is .153. There were

fifteen cases in 1916. There were eight cases in 1917, or a decrease of 53 per cent., but I _ think the decrease was mainly due to the establishment of the A.I.F. Lounge in Hobart last year by some ladies of the Hobart.

'ihis is an_ institution where the men can have baths or ' a wash and brush up, and where they can play billiards and have ' meals at a very nominal charge. It is a

meeting-house for theill when they go into town. Prior to the establishment of this institution they had really only the hotels in which they could meet one another. The number of men discharged for alcoholism f_rom the

1st January, 1917, to the 16th February, 1918, was 22, . or a percentage of .61. The records prove that prac- . .., tically in _all these cases the men. were suffering from

alcoholism before they came into ·camp, but were ac­ cepted by. the men on the off chance that they

would recover with the simple life and open air. · 1440. By Sena.tor Colonel Rowell.-Were they dis­ charged for intemperance were discharged be- .

yau se they were medically unfit owing to alcoholism. So far as I · know, there are no men wiio missed their embarkation through drink. We have never_sent forcements short of men from .here. Our conditions are different from those on the mainland. All reinforce­

ments leaving Tasmania have been up to ··strength. 1441. By the Chairman.-If you are sending away 400 men, have you had at the last moment to supply the places of any of those men owing to desertions ?-No, not to my knowledge. \Ve always work on ·a percentage

There are always some men who withdrawn ·at the last moment, perhaps for dental or medical reasons, or perhaps because a mother claims h er son who is age. We. always allow 20 per cent. to meet those cases,

but it is very seldom that we r equire that number. 1442. So far as ' Tasmania is concerned, that 20 per cent. who stand by have been required only because the Government have stepped in and said, " You are not to go," not because Ed the failure of any men to turn

up, or because of the lack of desire on the part of any man to go ?-Quite so. D esertions are really due to the fact that men, after being in camp, regret the step they have taken. In the majority of cases the deserters are

those who have endeavoured to get discharges by legi­ timate means; that is, by being declared medically unfit, or, in the event of that reason failing, by advancing family hardships. Having been unable to get discharged

legitimately;- they ' haVy deserted. / one Or -In- _.. proved by the sick parades itl tne' morning. _If a man stances drink may have had a bearmg on the matter, is "on the bust" the night before he feels sleepy in the but-T do not think that such is the -case. No Qfficer h4s morning, and l.n order to ·avoid his drill goes -on sick been demobilized through drinly since the camp was _ parafle. - Yet ou:t:_ medical officers state- that est ablished. There are only five cases in camp -where the sick parades are normal after -leave mght; venereal disease. has been oontract.ed by so·14_iers. - 1449. You would not ascribe it to tlie climate ?- N o. I questioned those five·) men as to whether they / Proba-bly a man is not so inclined to drink in the winter. were underr t4e influenoe of drink when they con- 1450. I am talking of the man who has been drinking --" tracted the dis.e·ase. Two out of the five state _ tha,t -- in both cases; apparently the eff ect is· differ ent in Tas­

they are teetotallers. Of the other two say that · mania ?-I cannot say whether . it is on account of the they had one drii1k. The fifth "did not know what state climate or not. .

h e.. was in. ThoBe are their statements for what they 1451. The fact _ that the men have a lounge to go to are worth. The p er centage of Veiiereal disease cases in Hobart ha-$ advantageous to the camp ?- Yes, to 1916 was 3.06 ; the per centage last year was 4.03·. - SIX - a degree. . - _ -

o'clock clo sing -do es I1ot affe ct o'm: -camp, be·cause it is 1452. Is there any insti-tution in the camp similar· outside_ the radius, ana a soldier can come into town to the Lounge?-Yes. and have all the liquor he wants. In my opinion, the 1453. Is it beneficial" to the m en ?-Yes. I do not sale of liquo·r does not affect the discip-line of the ca:rn_p know what the men would do without the institutions at

to any marked degr-ee, nor the conduct of the men while the camp, because there are only certain leave nights. on leave, as only 23 cases of drunkenness" have been re- __ We have a large stadium, wher e pictures are shown ported during the last two years. I base my statements - every night. - . - - -

purely on figures, and on my own obserV:ations. · Since 1454. These institutions help you very materially?-I have been in camp .I have never had to out a Certainly. _ - -

picket for any disturbances in town. There only , - 1455. But the Government do not subsidize them?_:_ one small disturbance caused by the arrest of a returned Not to my knowledge. , _

soldier by the civil police, and it was not case of 1456. If it had riot been for private people, churches, drunkenness,- it was a minor thing, ·which the Oommis- and so forth, establishing thesJl institutions,- your diffi­ sioner ·of Police afterwards referred to a conference, and ·.culties wouLd have been somewhat increas(;ld ?-Oer-the case was cleared up. · Nothing has happened in town tainly. -- -

-to warrant a picket being sent in. I called ior a report ' 1457. By S enator Lt.-Colonel Bolton.-What was the from the medical officers in camp, -if the sick extent of your military service befort'; leaving for the

parades in the -morning a_fter nights were nqrmat Froi].t ?-About nine years. _

They replied that parades after leave nights were 1458. In what eapagity did' you _leave here ?-A:3 quite normal. The records of the camp fo-r, the last tl'o captain in of a company -in the' 15t h Bat'tl:l.lion. years ilre quite accurate. · ' :. 14<19. _ You had no_ period of training with that unit

1443_. I take it from your that strong · before yol.l left Australia except for _three weeks

-drink has in no interfered -with the discipline or at B:roadmeadows . . - ,

th'e--morale of the men in the camp ?-It' has not to any 1460. That was a composite with -com-

marked degree. . ' panies from different .State§ ?-There were three -do,uble

· 1444. Supposing, for the sake oi 3crgument, that the cumpanies from Queensland, and one double company · -whole of the people wer e total abstainers, it vyoul4-not - from- '· . . . _

have been of very much advantage from a inilitary- _ 1-461. As compimy commander at Broadmeadows, any point of view.?_;.I do not-think so. - · cases of breaches of discipline by members of your com-

1445. You have given as -one reason for the decrease pany would he brought under your notice ?-Yes. But_ in drunkenness the fact t hat an -institution has been_ there was very little cri:Qre. Orderly _room was very opened to which the men go instead of to the hotels; if s·eJClom necessary, and then chiefly for absent-without-the men did go to the hotels would it interfere hat _ leave cases. - - - ·-

with their training do not know that it would do , -1462. Was that tendency to absencl :Without leave-so. The men would probably go the hotels, and _ due -to indulgence in alcohol?-I could not say so. more liquor if did not g.o Lounge, _ 1463. But, your general experience, absent-with­

It ne;rer affected the actual In camp .. It IS out-leave, cases are due largely to -indi]lgence in liquor1

P?SSible for a __ man to be the. of _ drmk :.;tt -I should say so. My previous remarks referred to

r:Ight, and yet. be t o dp his trammg In the da.y .. desertions, which I _ treated as quite different from

hfe of a soldier IS d1fferent from that of the civihan. absent-without-leave cases. _ J - _

He lives under more ideal He has more 1464. As a matter of fact, a man must be obviously

- regular hours for sleep . _ under the influence of liquor before he is charged with -

1446. A man may be druikmg at 1;nght _ and ye.t drunkenness?-=-Yes. · -

return to

not be m the mormng In 1-4"6_ 5. ·He may be the infiuenee of liquor, but is

- _ the way of trammg .-That IS so. only charged with being absent without_ leave ?-That ·

- 1447. WewE?_ re in Victoria by i.u of is possible. -. · · - -

the c-a!llp that If men had_ been. at ]466. _ Wlhat i-s t]le rule at Claremo_n£ in · regard to

t_he.Y: were . not well able to do thmr dnll, that theu leave ?-Fifty per cent. get le ave on Tuesday night and efficiency so and that others had - 50 pe t;. cent. on Friday .night; 25 per.cent. have week-end

not been were mterefe!ed to a, shg:ht ex- leave, 50 per cent. Saturday )eave, and ·50 per cent. Sun-

tent; .do you the m Tasmama day leave. . . _ -- , . '

to do With 1t?-I thmk I h3cve w1th 1467. That is a ve_ry generous' schedule ?-It is the

troops all parts of Australia, and I tlimk that regular leave throughout Commonwealth.

' Tasmamans are more men. _ 1468. Of course, you frequently attend early morning

- -f-44_8 . . But :we are deahng with a mai?- wh.o ha.s been paratles.?-Yes. _ at !11ght. the man m V ICtona 1469. You .have the usria1 physical exercises and

has domg Is not qmte. so .to d? his squad drill work to a syllabus· of training laid

work m the mormng as the man In Tasmania; m down by the General Staff; it provides for everything. are t.he men temperate,. but the effect 1s 1470. Naturally, with the responsibility of your com-

. m Tasmama ?-;-I would not hke to say .:tb.at it maud, you walk round and look at the various squads

IS on account' of the chmate, but what I have is training and Yes.

81

1471. you ever noticed any reluctance on the

part of the men in the -squad te go thrgugh the physical training?-No. ' .

- 1472. You have never observed any evidence that previous evening's leave ang slight dissipation have a tendency -to ·cause men to be reluctant in carrying out I have not it, but last Monday,

after the week=-end leave, I took special steps to make_ a close inspection and T also went to the sick parade a:qd 1nspected t he men there. I - could- not observe any re­ luctance on the part of the men. I also asked the

medicar officers to make special. observations. 1473. :Qid you have some reas·on for making thai special 1 made it in case I was called on

to give evidence before this Committee. -

1474. On :these morning parades, have you ever notic.ed any' on the of some individual to

.d_efy authority ?-No. One · case has hap- ­

pened since I have been in camp. 1475. Broadly speaking, y.ou ·do not consider that .dulgence in a lcohol has in any ·way affected the­ efficiency of the training or the character of t he discip­

line ?-No, not to any marked degree. · 1476. But .it has to some extent ?-To some extent, but not to -any degree. '

14 77. You know, as an responsi'ble for the

camp, that the general attitude of the authorities with regard to soldiers, es.pecially_ in the ma tte:t _of drink, is one of tolerance ; that is to say, the civilian under the mild influence of drink would probably come under the

notice of the police, whereas the soldier would prac­ ticEJ,lly be allowed . to pass • un'o bserved?-I think the soldier is ·more -

1478. Do you. think that. the authorities would- take action in r-Bgard to him ?---::I think the ·milita1·y police would. -

1479 . do nDt think that they are ip.fluenced by

the feeling that these men have undertaken a patriotic job in going to :fight for their country?-They may be to a certain extent, but I do riot think that that feeling would appeal to-the miljtary police.

1480. You -- think that the civilian police would show a certain amount of toleranCe?-Yes. I think they have always worked very well with tb,e military. There­ has not been anv cause for friction between the two.

1481. If a -goes ." OJi-the burst" when he is out

on leaye,_do you think that he is able to do his military job next morning?_:_Yes; t he :figures go to prove .it, as well as observations in the camp, 1482 . The physical training:and exercises at the early

morning parade are r ather a severe form of exercise for

was 11nder -proper control. I did not see ariy drunken­ ness t-here. I thougE.t the wet canteen helped the men to- remain in camp rather than go into the tow'n. 1490.: Life other officers, you took the opportunity of

going through Cairo and other places of interest; did you ever uotice troops about the high-ways and by-ways of Cairo under the inflt1.ence or liquor ?-I have men under the influence of liquor in -Cairo. . 1491. Having to whole- question as· it

affects the efficiency of ·.an army, would you be of · opinion that prohibition as regards liquor during '·the time of the war does not increase the efficiency of the army?-I do -not think that it would make very much

difference in Tasmania. · 1492. Would it make any difference?-It might alter tb,at percentage I have quoted; that .153 per cent. were charged with drunkenness.

1493. That percentage refers only to the- most

abstemious portion of Austr@:.lia ?--:::Yes. 149 4. But that percentage of men was not lost to the Forces ?-.No; thos.e were only the cases · dealt with in the camp. The percentage of caBes lost to the Forces

throtigh alcohol was 1495. Do ,you know that the difference between the numbers tllat have been accepted and the numbers that have embarked from Australia is about 60,000 ?-I have

seen statements in the press similar to that, but I can give you the exact numbers for the last two years so far as Tasmania is concerned. The number of men who volunteered-and were accepted for ·the A.I.F. in the

6th Military District during the years 1916 and +917 was 6, 846, and the percentage who did not go to the front was 17.39. _ - _ -

1496. Anyhow, you will agmit that a tfifference ')f 60,000 in a total of those who have e:J?.listed, and failed to go to the Front, in Australia is a pretty consiaerable item ?-It is: -

i497. I t -would amount to three the

difference would be _ 'accounted for by discharges for various reasons, medical ui1:fitness, f amily hardship, and - inafficiency. -

1498. The 60,000 -vvere primarily ,passed by· medical officers ?-Yes; but judging by our own percentage, I should say that aEo ut 60 per cent. of them would be discharged as medica!ly unfit. .

'I-Iow sh ould that happen ?-From differences of

medical opinion and . from men breaking down under training.

.. a short perio d ?-,-Th_ey have l;>een·modi:fied recently. As

a matter of fact, we have t4_e physical exercises at 11 · o'clock in the forenooR, and not at ·the early morning

1500. As a ·matter of fact, does ·it not mean- faulty org_ anization in the medical service ?-I would not say that. It is possible for a man to be passed by medical -men, and for him to break down under training. That

is often the case. I can give the :figures for our . camp in that regard. Out of the 6, 846 who enlisted in the last two years 1,19'1 did not go to the Front. The medically unfit numbered- 762. - Ther e were 53 who were dis­

charged at thelr request. Those who proved _ to be iue{{icient numbered 119. There were six who were not naturalized British subjects, and there were 111 under age. Two men were d:lscharged with ignominy, and in the case o.f one man, his services were no longer req uired .

Four men were discharged because they had been con­ victed in civil co urts. T wo men were discharged f or theft, and nineLn.en because th ey were over age. You therefore, that men wer e discharged for various

reasons.

parade as_ we used to do. ·

-1483. Has· a man · recovered to some extent by 11 o'clock ?-I would not say that. ·

1484. In view of your statement, it -imply that

, a sober man, when he comes to do his military work in the morning, is on the same basis as a man who has been having a' bad "bust-up'' -the night before ?-I' do not know what their feelings are. I am only speaking from

ob servations. c -

1485. As f ar ·as you know, you .get· the same results from bot'h ?-Yes. 1486 . You been ass;ciated with troops in all

par ts oi Australia, and .you think that the rrasmanian soldiers ·are more tem_perate ?-I certainly so . .

1487. Are you :r _native of Tasmania ?-No. 1488 . Were you in camp for ·any length of time in Egypt ?-During the mOll'ths of January, F ebruary, and :11:arch, 1915. I was camped at H eliopolis.

1489 . Did soldiers in that camp indulge in liquor to any extent ?-No; we had a wet canteen. Of co_urse, it F.l4_59.-6

1501: Is not 762 men · out of 1,191 a very big_ per­ l}entage to result practically from careless performance · of medical duties, involving a great expense on the "'.co untr y?-The percentage of ·medically un:fit among

thc;>se discharged after enlistment. was 63.9. 150'2 . Have yo u h ad opportunities of coming into contact wi th· returned soldier s ?-Not to any gJ:Zeat ex­ tent:.. I have a limited number in camp.

..

/

82 /

1503. ·Have you noticed among those men with whom you have come in contaet a . tenden_ cy to indulge in alcohol beyond the normal?-'-N o. I find that returned soldiers who r e-enlist or return to duty are quite normal.

Those are the mep_ with whom I come into contact; also the men who are in Details awaiting discharge or re-enlistment. Of course, I only see them after *ey have been home for They do not come direct

t.o camp. They are in hpspi al; or somewhere elae, before they come to me. ·

1504. They do 110t give any more trouble than the · ordinary recruit, so far as drink is con<;erned?'--Th7 have n9t done so in regard to drink, or ·in any other way.

1505. Do you think that the use of alcohol among returned soldiers will increase the difficulties of repa­ triation ?- I am no t competent to give an opinion on that question. · /

11506. But you will be . able to form an opinion as to whether the men who is irresponsible is much easier to deal with than the man who is responsible ?-I presume that the man who is responsible is much easier to deal w:ith.

l5Q7. A man r eadilyaffected by alcohol is to some extent irresponsible ?-Yes, I should ·say so. . 1508. By S enato1· Gran(-Have you given any con­ sideration to the question of " shouting I be­

l_ieve i]l anti-" on general principles, but I ·

do not that It would have very much effect on the

troops. I think it would have an effect on the com­ munity a whole. 1509. The soldiers are drawn from the community as a whole?-That is so.

1510. If anti-" shouting" will have a ·beiieficial effect on tll.e as a whole;. it _shouid incidentally

have a benefiCial effect on the soldwrs ?- !t should do so. -

1511. And that would result in a considerable reduc­ tion in the qua11tity of sold ?-Probably it would. 1512. Would. you be in favour of establishing a :wet canteen at jour camp ?'-Yes.

1513. Would you be favour of establishing a wet canteel]. where large bodws of 'workmen are employed, -where could secure drink under some supervision, such as 1s .!lnfor ced at camps ?- I have not had much experience of workmen, and therefore I would rather

not express an opinion on that subject. My experience has only been with soldiers. I am in favour of a wet canteen under. proper supervision, because if they have . a wet canteen men will probably not trouble to go into

town. 1.514. Ifave. y_ou heard that many parents object to the11· sons enhstmg lest they may contract the habit of seei'ng that when a wet canteen is continually

front of men in the camp they · are likely to

g1ve Way to di;mk ?- I have read reports o£ such things, · but _I nave never had any complaints or had it put to me ll1 that "'ay. 1515. Can the men have a nap in· the Lounge in

Hobart?-Yes. ·

1516. Could they sleep off the effects of a few extra pin'ts thei'e ?-Yes; I do not think the ladies will turn a·ny one out.

1517: By Buzacott.- Did you come back in

a hospital sh1p ?-It was a troopship, carry!ng invalids. 1518. Were the troops allowed to land at the dif­ ferent ports of call ?-I was a cot case and I was too ill to -lui. ow anything that happened on' board the ship.

1519. I suppose that you heard expressions of opinion as. to they thought they were being

m bemg refused a drink on arriving in Aus­

t!aha have heard criticisms in regard to that1 pii.r­ tlCularly m the case of the N:ew Zealanders who were passing through Hobart. '

1520. When troops are pa:ssing through, do you think it is necessary to .close the hotels at the different ports of call ?-I do not think it is essential to do so. 1521. Do you think that soldiers would take excep­ tion to the Government providing a special place fgr them where they could obtain drink, while debarring them t;rom taking drink with civilians at other hotels?­ Once a soldier dons khaki he wants the rights and privi­ leges of the ordinary civilian, and· he to be able

to go where the ordinary civilian can go. When a man goes to camp he wants to be treated as a man; and when he is outside camp he wants t o be treated like a

civilian. ·

1522. Do you think that the fa9t that the camp is farther away from the city in Tasmania than is the case with camps in the other States has any effect on the sobriety of the men ?-Liverpool and BrQadmeadows are further a>v'ay from the city than we are at Clare­ mont.

1523. Are there an y hotels near the camp ?- They are all out of bounds. ·

1524. By Senator Guy. - Have you had ' any experi­ ence of wet canteens, which you say you favour?- Yes. · In all the camps in which I have been prior to Clare­ mont Camp there were wet This is my first

experience of a dry canteen. . In those wet canteens was thexe. a limited quan­ tit y of drink allowed t o each man ?-No; but the can­ teeJl was under the control of the orderly officer ,

orderly sergeant, ari-d orderly corporal. They visited it every half hour, and if they saw a man under the in­ fluence of drink orders given· that he was to have no more drink. , Those orde·rs are obeyed. ·

' 1526. I s there ai1y arrangement by which a man is only se,ved ?nee, and- if he wants another he has to go to the end of a queue, and annot get served again for it time ?-I have n ever known of that regu-

latwn. ·

1527. What drinks are supplied in the wet canteen ? -B13er and soft di·inks. In some 'wet canteens whisky can be obtained. · 1528. In most cases spirits are sold?-That 'is so.

15;39. Beer is mostly sold?- Yes. . '

1530. Three or four_ weeks a

gulatwn w!is. m operation long befor e my time. The u_ sual order 1s to plaGe. au hotel "out of bounds." and that has been in existence ever since the was

estabhshed at -Claremont. The .hotels at Bridge"'ater and Glenorehy are out of bounds. ·

Has it come to knowledge that some

soldwrs have created damage in ho tels ?- I have heard no complaints. If anything is ·done in that way 'thev usually complain to me. "

_1532. H!i::e you ,ever had any in connexion

With the railway-any trouble caused -by men comino· into camp ?-:-No. To support that statement I can read a letter ·received frorg_ the Commissioner of Railways on the 20th June, 1917. It reads as follows :-

. i n reply to your inquiry, the cha'rge' of the

drunkenness of · the troops when r eturning from Hobart to Claremont Camp is unfounded. For a long time past 'the conduct of the sola!ers has been very good. There have, of course, been some cases ' of drunkenness, biit the offenders have been dealt

with by the police, and the railway sta.ff

have been reheved of any trouble. I can safely say , that, on the whole, the men are now very \veli­ behaved. 1533. It 1s not true a was badly damaged

by the troops ?-That 1s true, but that happened sinee this ,letter was written. It happened about three

months ago.

1534. That was largely due to drinH-We could not Why it is done I cannot say, but evidently it is because trace it tu drink. There were £10 worth of damage of tho temptat ions that they place in the way of soldiers done, but' whether it was due to drink or some grievance in cam p. · I do not know. We had a proper inquiry in regard to 1550. If liquor had the same effect on the people out- ' the matter. Some ·say that two of the men were under side Tasmania as it h as h ere there would be no neces-, influence of liquor, but we could get no dircct---evi- si ty for closing hotels?- I do not say so.

deuce. Other s say that the men were not u:ud.er t.he 105 1. 1;:' drink has no bad effect it seems strange to influence of liquor. That is the only occasion on vvhi cb me that there should be any r estrictions impo13ed by the damage has been doue on the railway, and tha t covers military authorities ?-I cannot say why the District

over three ye-ars. Commandant issued the .order.

1535. There was a burning accident at Claremo nt 1!l 52. Jt is a general practice throughout the Com-some time ago ?- An officer's tent was burned down. monwealth ?--I believe so. That was ·before my time. 1553.' It is qtiite possible that _ the Commandant here

1536. Was that due to drink?-No. I do not know was simply doing what the Commandants in other the officer, and have never seen him. places were doing, or that it was done .because of in-

1537. I s it true that men from D etails at Claremont structions from the Central Office ?-That may be the went to Bellerive and got drunk on R efer endum Pay, and case. finally left a boat on the rocks ?-Yes. I know that the 1554. You h ave had experience in other places, and boat drifted a b5t, and one of the r eturned soldiers swam 'from your· observations yo u consider that Tasmanians

out and got into it and padd1ed it to somewhere near are more temperate than -p eo ple elsewhere ?-That is so. Bellerive Hotel. I t was brought back the next day. 1555. Is the fact that the peo ple here are more tem­ Had I known that the soldiers would get drink at the per ate of' some advantage ?-It has been au advantage. Bellerive Hotel I should have· taken action to get the 1556. Then the less· drink that is taken the be.tter i t hotelclosed. - is ?____:I do not think that drink taken in moderation w{ll

1538. Is not that hotel sufficiently to be covered -do any harm. Drinking to excess will do so, al)d woulq by the prohibition against the others ?-It· is "out of make it very hard to administer th e camp. bounds," but if they break t he order which h as been 1557-----:--What do yo u call " drinking in moderation"? issued you can close the hotel. -Some men can have half-a-dozen drinks and be mode-

- 1539 . They have not been clo sed by the Dep artJ,Tient? rate. Dthers cmr be beastly drunk on the same number. - Not clo sed, but they are "ou t of bounds" to soldiers. It is a thing that is very hard to define . 1540. Do you know of a case of a soldier being in 1558. Although ther e is a dry canteen at Claremont hospital with de•liri1lm trernens ?- I do not know much _yo u have had no trouble with the drink question

about the medical part. Medica l officers run their own is so. hospital. ' . __ 1559. Then, why do yo u want a wet canteen ?-I sup-

1541. You have stated that there was only one case port a wet canteen because I do not think th e men would to your knowledge where a man had actually refused go to Hobart so frequently as they do. If they conld duty?- Yes . · It -.,vas mor e or less The -get a glass of beer in camp they would say," We are just

charge was insubordination. as well off here as we are in the town."

1542. Have you the means of distinguishing between 1560. It does not do ·a man any harm if he has a car-total abstai.ners and those who indulge in drink ?-No. tain amount of leave and goes to H obart for a change 151:3 : Would you be able to say which are "the best a:n d attends a picture show?-No. class of men?- I would no il like to say that. The rein- 1561. If a little change will do a man no harm is

forcements that left here this mo rning fo r the- Front there advantage in keeping him in camp ?--There were the finest body of men that I have seen leaving are more temptations in th city than ther e ar e in the Tasmania. They are quite equal to g1,ny of the first lot camp. that went away. 1562. The men h ave not..-been tempted so far as your

1544. By the Cha·irman.- Y ou do not agr ee with the camp is concerned am referring to temptations evidence giv-en by Major Ernbling, who was in charge of generally. There are temptations in Hobart such as are the Bendigo and Royal- Park Camps, where he says to be found in every city. ·

that, on a route march a man had been. drinking on a , 1563. While your men are not tempted far as'd;ink previous night, would probably interfere with the effi- is concerned, there may be other temptations from which ciency of the whole company ?-I do not quite agree they might be is 'so .

with him. ' -

15.45. If that is correct so far as Vi_ ctoria is concer ned 1564· By Senator Lt.-Colo nel _ Bolton.-You lrave been very fortunate in yo ur association with the temperate

are we justified in coming to the conclusion that in Tas- portion of the Australian A rmy?-Yes. mania you have no men who come back to camp in any way the wo1'se for liquo r ?- I have not made that state- · 1565. Wer e. yo u to make a comparison as to the ment. · attitm:l.e of the man who vo u knew was accustomed to

1546. That is so, but the point is that no man the taking liquor, and t he man who is practically a total worse for, liquor wo uld be taking part in the route abstainer in the firing li1ie in the face of the enemy ?-I march, or else the liquor here has not the same effect 011 have certainly had one or two hard cases who were very the men as it has in Victoria; or is it due to the climate heavy drinkers, but in the firing line they were most here ?-It is. one of the two , but I would not like to say reliable men . which. I haYe given my obser vations after having in- 1566. In your e perience the boozer is a good fighted

vestigated these things clearly. I have had to go into -As a rule he is a very good fighter . This has been the matter before. pr?ved both in this campaign and in previous cam-

1547. You sav that drink has not interfered here? -- - palgns. That is so. ·" - 1567. By Senator Grant.-Is there a possibility that

1548. I understoed you to say that the_ military the men who had been drinking on the previous evening authorities have closed a certain number of hotels and were, according to your evidence, quite fit to go -against soldiers ?-Yes, in· the vicinity of the Camp. through their exercises on the following m orning 1549. Why was that done ?-I could not say. Cer- brought home a little drop in the bottle ?-I do ot

tain places ,are out of bounds at B1·oadmeadows, and I · think there is. Military police are at the railway think it is t he general practice throughout the Com- _,stati?ns when men entrain, and if they see a man momvealth to place hotels near camps out of bounds. wallnng along w1th bottles in his pockets they take them - 6 2

\

/

. - · · h ·1 · ---1591. · Do-es . it .come within your jurisdiction - to away. If they ge past'the m. i.litary police at t _e ra1 · 2 y ffi d th are ascertain the existence of sly grog-shops·.- .es. . . way stat1on there is an entra1nmg o cer-, an e:!·e H b d other officers on the troop train who away any .1592. any !been 5n °' art urlng your term of o:ffice.?-LJOnly_ .one I kn,ow of, , liquor if they see it. ; . - it w.as a .smal·l a:ffal]'. Lt really could _ not be .called a . 1568. Have you ever heard of sly grog-shops as thev "'" a _ r e- k _ nown in Melbourne, Sydney, flat flask that lies close to a ma11- s chest, and 1s almos.t ' impossible to detect?:_No. liql).or from and other :pla,ces. _ - · .-. . . men at the camp. There have been only three cases. 1593. Are there any sly grog-shops 1n Hobart now· -1569. What becomes of the Jiquor that is -No. cated ?-It is handed over to me and I smash the bottle 1594. Are the hotels in Hobart closed when a troop-and lose the-liquor. ship is in .port?-:: Yes, •but the does not w:ork .suc-- H - ' d cessfully. .:.. - WiJliam Hain, Inspector of P ·oli,ce, . obart, 1 SWOTn ?-n - 1595. Drink is stilL-oht·ainable ?-They ig.et motor examined. . car.s and go outside t·he limit, and _pur.chase liquoT, 1570. By the Dhairman.-H,ave y.ou been in Hohart which into the city: . _ since the war starle d ?::-Yes. -- 1596. What is the ·po.pulation -of. Hobart ?-.Alhoui 1571. What_ i s t h e .general bearing of the men from - . _ - · -the Olai'Iemont Oam p when they come int o "Roiba.rt ?- 1597. HtOw many men have been arrested for On the whole, it is .goo.d. _ drunkenness in H :olbart in the last six y eaT.s ?-I was n ot 1572. So.me are a little the wor,se-.for liquor?-Yes, given to that i:t ·would be for me but not too many. · · to .be prepared with figures. 1573. Have they cause d the mc uch - 159S. W e 1 have had a statem ent to the eff ect that 23 -They did. in the· early struge.s. o to th e adult populatron ?-I do not 1576. Wha.t would. you expect ?'--!When, n1eu return .think it is. W.e h ad a f air n umber 0f men in camp from the F:ront, where they have h.ad a hard time, their until :r ecently. . · · friends meet therm, and " shout" fo.r them. In the first 1599. Does y our lead you to say the few days after men r eturn, you e:x'pect ·them to have a number of civilians thart hav·e been arrested ·stands ln a few drinks. , greater proportion to the adylt male , population of 1577. You ra.re dealing with returned men; what H ·ohart than the nuTn'ber of -;soldiers· who / have been -aho:ut the men :before they :go away?--Bom·e of them are convicted of drunkenness du_ring the past two years ?_-I giY:en to drinking, ·but not to any extent. · . -- _ cannot say. A numbe:r of men who- were very often in 1578. Proihaibly y.ou knew some of ·them before they the hands of the _police n ave joined up. They wer e went into the Army?--Yes. _ - ' merely trans ferred .from the civil p opu_ lation to the 1579. rS.ome who have given a amount of camp. A_ numhe.r _of them n ev er inten4ed to go to the through drink were .a·ocustomed-to drinking be- - Front. As a matter of £act t hey .did not go. Th:e fl{)'J:le they joined ?_:__,That i,s soldiers get the discredit of those cases. Therefore, I 15'80. Would that 1 be so in the majo·rity · of ca.s·es ?- sa.y tha·t the figlJres are no :criterion. - -We have had a few ins'tances of men who·m the poliee 1600. ,DQ .ci;il .1ook wi th 'ln?re eye did no-t know previously, men co·ming in fTom the_ on the men 111 unif or m t ha11 on th.e ordmary ClVJhan ? . 0ountry .and ;gett ing a drink two. Country ljfe -is --=-Ye.s: _ like town lif0, ·and t hey get a little off the straight 1601. A man in unifohn ·can indulge _ to a for a little while. · extent with impunity ?--NrQ .. If a rr;t·an _is in . 1581. I .s it-J!OUT opinri•on that in the majorfty of c a.ses.. th e str eets under the influen ce of hquor, and m .clmed thoise who are additCted t o drink are those who were tD he diso rderly, the will rea:so-p. · him, and --addircted to. i1t pefore they joined ?____,Mo.st de'cidedly it is. endeavour to -induce his to gel him aW?-Y· 1582. , There .are men who hav!e joined and .have :riot - 1-602. What hE!ip:pens in the ca,se of -tbl 10Tdinary g·one to the .are y:ou of opinion that there are civilian?-He is .cautioned,- and if he will not take some men who ·delibe.rately jro.1ned with the idea of _hav- notice of the caution he is arrested. The police are more ing a J airly good time .a.s long as they could, and with· lenient with the soldier, especially the returped soldier, no intention ·of going to the Frorrt ?-Yes, a numbe·r of than with the O :I'Idina:ry· civilian. ' _ _ . them have ·done tha t. . - 1603. you formed -any idea the questwn 1583. Are you of opinion that if no drink was of compensating the- liquor trade in the event of · pro­allowed to any ,person, it would add to the efficiency of - hiibitim1 ·being ahout ?-Yes. - I do not believe our ·military efforts ?_:_If there was-- no drink at all, it. in prohibition. . _ . · . would add to oure ffi!Qiency. _ · J 604. But, in the even t of the electors of . 1584. You say 'that even iri Tasmania ?-Yes;' I know deciding to hr.ing about a_ state of prohibition, w·ould what I am talking about. I have had just on 34 you favour com:p€ms:ation being ,girven to the liquor years' experience. trade ?-Y e.s. . ... _ _ , · 1585. By Senator Grant.---JI,a·s al.l your .service in 1605. W·ou1d. you co·mpensate all concerned, o'r con-the .police force in Tars Y e.s. fine it _:to · tJhe owners of th - land ?-No ; I think the 1586. b:rewe:ri es' are there in Tasmania 1 compe11:sation sh'ould .be on- a sliding scale, a·ccoi'Iding - ---'Five or six. One or two h'ave been dosed recently;. t·o the length of a lea.se, ·and aeoording to . what -has 1587. How many hotels are there in Tasmania ?-I been for the goo,_d-will . . cannot give you that informatibn off hand. There ar-e 1606. What a'bout the man who owns the land ?-I aihout :96 in Hoibart, and ··about 42 iii Launce;ston. . would not give him much consia,erat,icon, because I know 1588. Are t-here au'y wine .shO!ps in Hob.a:rt that a:lm10st refl't,s are ·cha:rged to hotelkeepers. They <' are a heady. well paid. I would not ·recommend 1589. Have groeer.s the right to se1l liquor ?--'No. that much ·co.nsideration .should ,be given .to the owners. 1590. So that there .are only abo.ut 96 ·plaees in 1607. you be in . £av·our of the -harmen and · Hobart where intoxicating liquor can be legitimately-· harmaid,s getting a slice out of the ·compensation ?-I - obtained?-Yes, _ except in the clubs. There are a-bo{rt . think I would, it would be taking away their eight clubs. ' liv:ing._ I do ·not believe in .having ibarnraids.

- 1608._By _ Senato·r . Buzacoft.-----

notice that 'J h,e ofder men. have a greater tendency to in our - pr·esent li,censin:g law. Ifthe houlis -could b_ e indulge- than the y.ounger men ?--I :have no_t ' no·ticed. , alte:ved fr.om 7 a.m. to 7- p.m., •o r from 8 a.m. 8 any difference._· -Drinking among,the yoimger men was and if the hotels absolutely outs1de those more noticeable a·bout two years· ag.o. · we -cou1d the sale of hquo:r from the

- s !--' - , - • ·outside· but- at present a man can- legally enter hotel 1609. 1 ·oldwrs generally ,go around the hotels drmk.- . ' · . - . · · 1 . · .. - th " 1 2 A 1 th d T·h . - prem•1ses and ,ge.t as much hquor as ihe hkes at a cord1al_ ng among emi:je ':es .- s a ru e, ey o. . ere - b Th r . · · d t · th lass ov· are a _ couple of houses in Hobar:t that are looked upon. far.h. e gdo 1tnsl 8 0 . e dg'rlk'ng .t. as soldie·rs' ho1-tse s, whi·ch the as . a :vule. 0 1t62e8mHan s an ;lhn ? .see tw a. eE'ls n 'w1he:a . _ ·. . . _ ·. . . av·e you ear· o -a .sys em m urope · . .... · - . .. Do ;m "the haJhlt tlle bar ''is afb§olutely 1 separrut·e f11om the building, •and _ sold1e1:,; to dnnk. Yes, those p3:ss _cannot be. ent-ered mwept fr.om the street, ,the __ be- 'I.Dg ,thJ.'iough on _ tra:nspo.rts. _ ing of glass so that the police -can see what is happenmg 1611. Do y-ou-- that t-hey. ar·e re.apon.si·ble. for inside ?-The liquor bar should he -detached from the drink being indulged:i ?.:__·Yes, or most of it. - - , sleeping po rtion of the •and at dosing time all - 1612. -That being so, _ think that -an s·nould be pulled up, -:so bhat .one could see "shouting" law wol!Jd ,have the eff ect ·qf minimizing mto the bar. _ _ the evil ?-I believe in' an anti-'-' shouting" law. · 1629. By Senator Co-lonel Rowezz._,w.ould your l'e-mar•ks as to the leniency of the police towards soldtere 1613. By Senator Guy.-Yo}l mentioned that you - apply to the military police, ·or do yo-\l tl1ink they had more tro_ uble in the early days of the war than you would be . stringent on men in m1if,orm than_ the .Jra,ve now ?-Yes. That- vvas want -o.f discipline; - the civil police are in regard to civilians ?-I do not 1ike to men wer e used dris:cipline, and· were fretting express an ·opinion a1 bout ,the :ini-litary poli•ce, -hut tho.se under it, and 1vhen the- were - exerci.sin!g their -in ,I-lolba'T·t aTe not a suc·cess. - _ 1Jower1 8 in" the .street they resented it. That _. was... tJ1 c 1630_ i·s an Oipinion in ,80·me quartets that rea;son. ' they ·a:re over stri:nJgen t 1n regard to men in khak1 i ?- 1614· Wa,s any dam.age done tq_ pw:perty ?- I do not The military poli:ce never interfere unless it is a case _ remen1!ber- a .single instance. - · - of a!bsm1ce wi_tihout lea-ve, or desertion. I do not 1615. If men played up a little th1.-;ugh drink, they kiww ·of instances where they haVle interfered chd go so far as to damage proper-ty?-No. It men who are drinking or di.sorde:vly. - commenced in h.o.r.sepla'y and .skylarking, and 1631 . Wlhen they a 111an,- -what do t}:l.ey do there was a ·criminal .element present_the ·police would" with him?-'That iS :: another matter should be mterfere. The men resented that. - - _br.ought to the noti,ce of this Commit-tee. \Vhen 'a man You ha_ d more _trol{ble in- clays l:5e- is on the street, ·and misconducts himself in some ·way, _cause a number of men who -enlisted, ap.d did not--1.n-/ he is truken to the watchhouse and confined iJ;l the -c;om­tend to go, went there -for what they-co.uld ,get out of, it? mon .cell. tt is ·an undignified ·proceeding. Aocommo­___JI as a rule, that they resented cLis·cipliue. J dation is pr·ovided at the ba:rra·cms,_- but the militaTy They were not under the same control in the early stages police do not •convey the men there; _they take t4em to of the war. - uhe pubEc .cell. . There mig;ht be undesirable ·characters The .p:ractice of the Defe'n:ce DE1partment .. to in., those cel_ ls. ¥ any soldiers feel this . I close ho,tels. when t1.1oopship:s ·are going thro·p.gh ha-s . nave heaTd them pass very •strong remarks about :rt-­been pretty largely evaded my opinion, the radius a!hout being mixed up · with and oiJler undesiT-should ibe increased. _ ahles. · 1618. What is the Tadius now.?-.A,Ihout -5 1niles. It 1?32. Do you fi-nd that .most ·of the •cases' you had should 1 include Bridgewa·ter, Bellerive, and Oamb:ridge. to deai with in ·t·o military · men who are the _ 1619. W.ou1d you make the radius 10 miles worse for wer-e men -with whom you had to deal of 5 ?-I stro:ilgly re-commend _that that:- should be - in their life?___, Yes, a good niany _of them .. done. ,1633 . .Do, think that the efficiency of the Forces There is -:-ev-idently a good deal of drinking is 'affected to any large ·extent through . hol to drink methyhted s·pirits ?-I have not heard 1623. Do you find that .a ·numbe:r .of parent·s are of it; I have often noticed 1 soldier.s w:h-o come in diffident ahout consenting to their sons enlisting because from- Claremont with half-a-dozen bottles of beer. Of of the temptatiqns from ·clr.in'k, 1 and otlie:!- thin.gs ?-A course, they have a 1·ight to get them. That is where few cases have coine under my notice. -the trouble comes in. They can go away with poLtled . J6·24. You say that we would get ·more efficiency if stuff, and drink it in the train, or take it to camp. T·o there were less drinking?-That i.s 'S·O; -- · my mind1 ibotiJled -beer" ?hould not be -sold to them. _ 1625. In order to l!>rodluce !tha:t !better (00ndi1Jion, 1636. You know of no case where thos-e wh·o· have would you p11opose anything :beyond ·an anti "shout- acquired the drinking habit ·have obtained lpbtnylated in'g" law ?-I do_not know what to think of o-m' 1pre=- spirits ·from chemists ?-I do not know of one inst·ance. s<:mt licensing 1637. In your opinion, we would b-e wble to carry 1626 . . W,ould you make the ·penalties for eva-sions oo. the war without liquOOj-?;-Yes. . - .. heavier?-The temperance..h:ars atta,.ched ·to ho tels have 1638. But you are not m fav-our- of .proinb1tlon ?­given us trouble. Men .can wal'k in and out of hotels, . No, because it means ly grog-shops. H is better to and the 1poEce are ·compelled to enter a licensed- house have an evil which you can ·contro.l than to have one in order to enforce -the law. If the Act was such _that which you .cannot 'control. I have read up the matter we •cou-ld enforce the law from outside, we could ip·revent fairly and it .seems to me that prohibition a l2 t of drinking. ·,has proved a ·bit of ·a failure. /

..

86

1.6'3·9. You ,say- indu1geYIJce in· drink doe·S· _ affect 1656. Do you -find · from the reports of your officers our military effori1;. Seeing that the of the th::tt the hotels in the vicinity of the camp have b;roken

Oo:inmonwea:lth ma:y depend upon the military effort the orders ?--I a_ m not aware that they ha1 e done so. of the would you 1 be in favour .of p·rohibition if .John I nspectoi· of Police, Hobart, swor n

it ·COuld he administer ed and given effect to or I . - ; . and examined. -

would reduc:e the .strerugth o.f the liquor. 1657 .. By-the Chairman.- IIow long ha.ve you been

1640. It would not he too great a . s a,crifice for the in Hobart ?--0n this oceasion fo r about eight months. · people o.f this country make if it would give them Prior to that I was at Launceston.

'more efficie:rucy in their military efforts ?-That is .so. 1658. Have you /any ideas as to drink -_ h as

1641. You are in favour · of an anti-" n -interfered with the efficiency of the ·effort?-

'Ve see soldiers uDd er -th e- influence of 'drmk.

1642. Do you think it would be- .pos.sihle to give

eff,ect t·o .such a law t hink it 'be given , e:ffect drink h as a very pad. effect- on men

to. At any rate, it would ·COiitroi a -lot of drinking, 1659. I would rather have yi> ur opnuon m _ regard

and I am satisfied that it wo:ul:d h·ave .good results. - to --- the man who is going · to the Front ; has· drink made 1643. By Senator Grant.-I's draught ale -better it more difficult for the officers to drill /him ?_:_I have bottled ale ?-Yes; there is no doubt about that. no t had an opportunity to study question su:ffi-

1644. Would you object to civilians being slipplied ciently to giYe a definite opinion upon it, from w_hat with fiv,e o:r six bottle:s -of ale?-Yes. It should I h;:tve seen the majority of tile Tasmaman soldierR __.

o:ffence to sell !bottled ale to any 'person, e.stpe-cially to seem to be vei'y well conducted. soldiers. 1660. Because -of the p r oximity of the ca!llp . t he

1645. Then you would dej:rrive . pHrson of the presence of- soldier s in' the _ city, have _ the pohce any __ o:pipoTtunity _of 1 securing a few dozen bottles -of ale f or more trouble now in handling H6bart than they had

his cellar ?-Yes. Before a pe,rson could buy .any quan-- previously?-I suppose they would have more bnt not tity of ale, he should h ave a .licence from the- Treasurer entirely on account of the so ldiers. The _law has of the State. · , altered since I_ was previously stationed 1n In

1646. Would you 'be in fa-v our Jof a -wealthj perS'Oll 1913. hein,g .permitted to go to the Treasurer and get a licence 1661. Persons cannot· obtain drink afte-r six ·I

to purchase wh:atev,e:r quantity 'D:f. bottled ale he at night ?-Not lawful1y in - .

for :his cellar ' do not my 1662. Has that alteration to the law made iHl-

meaning: My idea is to -control sly and the_ :provement ?-=-I believe it has. _

- sale. of hquor. I have good many after _ , _ 1663. By Senator Buzac.ott.-In ;rour -exp.erience

two ·or. drrnks 1?- a hotel . there 1s 110 greater perce_ntage of. who

Ing for other, leave with bottles of beer J.n · in strong drink than among t h e civihan populatiOn?-_ --­

pockets, altligugh they have already -h:ad sufficient 1 should not think so. liqu?r . . I have seen them in the . railway - ,1664-. Have you come across ca.s-es where wives

ca.rnages. . -the last_ Commonwealth tr;ansport . of soldie_rs spend their allowance I_n drmk and ? 2glect vv-as here, they out ap.d .Bellenve, and their families ?-I cannot call to mmd a casewhwh has

I the;n .returmn.g With _ ·bottle;s m. thmr pockets and been caused by . .

It 1h the rand pourmg- It 1665. Do . you think that the civilian IS responsible

money :Vas and· they were In.Jurmg to a great extent for-inducing soldiers to dri:r;k ?-Yes.

theu health With ·this bottled stuff. That _ ,Is my . 1666. Do vo u think that an "antf.-shouting '' law

meaning. - · ;- - would h ave the e:ffect of minimizing the evil?-It might

1647. 'Under what circumstances -could a get do 80 if it could' be effectively carried _ .

. , a quantity for his private use ?-Any -respectable man, . - 1667; Could it not be effectively carried out If the -if he made an application to the Treasurer, should be for evasions of - th e . Act were sufl!ci:-ntly

permitted to purchase a dozen or a couple of dozen heaYy ?-Additional officei·s would haYe to be appomted - bottles if lie so desires. But I do not believe in any to -carry '· out such a law until it was properly,. estab- person buying several dozen bottles of ale to cart home, lished. " - -

because it means introducing drink to the That 1668. If the law was sufficiently stringent ..Jo you

is the danger of the sale of bottled stuff. - . not think it would be just as possible to carry it into

1648. Y 611 would not permit a man in uniform to effect as it is to carry out other _laws, such· as the purchase ·several bottles in any circumstances ?-No, hibit1on of the distillation of whisky ?-From a _pohce because when he has left the hotel he has already had point uf view there would be a good deal of difficulty ' sufil.cient liquor. ---. - ih proYihg breaches of an " -anti-shouting" law. : .-

1649. Are there temperimce _bars established in 1669. There' is an Act in operation in Great nexioh with a number of hotels in Jiol5art ?--Yes, in . and in New Zealand ?-I believe so, but I do not know the case of 95 per cent: o.f the in Hobart. holv it is being carried out. · 1650. Is it possible to get a drink of beer or spirits • through these temperance bars · 167·0. By Senator Gtt'!{·-Is it: the .practice of - · police to deal leniently w1tn m-en m umforn: ?-I think 1651. Would you be in f avour of completely so . I have had- a good deal to do the mner .":ork-- up these bars so far as they are attached to pubhc- ings, and so far as I can the an_ d ·- houses?-Yes. - woi'k .. very weU _together. _. W e ass1st the miht ary In ·- 1652. By Senator Guy.-Have you any every possible· way, and we haYe the same courtesy of ''tied" houses in Hobart person al knowledge. extended to us. · , 1653. You have a general idea, but no complefe . 1671. Do you work harmonious1y with the - - evid-ence to which you could swear?-That is so . I h ave police ilL Hobart ?-Yes, whene,fer they need assistance a general knowledge .of what is going on. , " from the ciYil j)olice they always receive it. 1654. By the . Chairman.-Do your duties- cause you 1672. When they arrest men -fo r drunkenness where to go to the Claremont Not very often. do they take them?-- They are permitted to them · 1655. By B_enator Colonel The hotels close ft>r the time being at - the watch-house and to the <3amp are out of bounds to Yes. !hey take them there. , _

;'

l673. ls1 there no provision made for. them at the -barracks suppose so.

· 1674. In your months'- experience in RQbart

reQently do you know of\ any soldier. who •has got out of control 'and materially" damaged can-

not remember any instance. · ·

1675. Rave- you heard of ::my damage being done on_ a railway train ?-It may have occurred without oowin1r to my knowledge. :-- __ · .

1676. By Setl!ator Lt.-Colonel Bolton.-Wha.t is yqur lep,gth of police service ?-Thirty years in Tasmania. _1677. Do you regard Tasmania as distinctly a IUQre .. temperate portion of Australia than ariy other

In some parts very: much more liquor is drunk than)n oth€rs, and from what-I have seen of the other States I think tha( things are very- much · ab'out the same as they are in Tasmania. · - . . -

1'678. Our soldiers ar:e really a citizeh soldiery the ·habits of the are the habits of the soldiers;

therefore- the efficiency of the people of Tasmania W011ld he. in the same .ratio"as the efficiency o.f the I should say so. , -

1?7_ 9. With your (thirty years' expyrience of · the of the people of Tasmania would you consider

. that they would be more· efficient_ , and more energetic, and bette:v- able to give results in the prosecution of a war like this with or without liquor ?-4 sober pt'iople are preferable to a people -who a-re in the habit of drinking liquor to excess.

1680. Would it'be too/ great a sacrifice on the part of the people of A.usfralia to ask them to ohserv:e pro­ hibition during the period of the war in oraer to. get

the best results ?-I do not think it would be too great a sacrifice. · ·

1681. Do you think that the demana for the effort is so supreme that it would be justi:fie_Q. _

1682. ·By- Sena_tor G'rant.-Do the soldiers frequent temperance bars attached to hotels?:--Yes. I have often seen them in these temperance bars in fair num-bers. · ·_ _... -- . · ·

1683. Would it be correct to are ·about

'eighty temperance bars to .hotel bars in

- Hobart think so. Most of the licensed houses have temperance bars, and there are about ·100 . hotels in Hobart. · --

r 1684. Is it. to secur{r aie ang spirits_ at _those

temperance bars on the Yes. ·

1685. after. the ordinary. hours of

able to. secure beer and spirits in those so-called

temperance. bars ?-In places, but not in all. Some­ of the licensees adhere to the law, and cau. be relied on, but re·cent experience has shown that this is not so with all of the-m. - · · ,

_ 1686. percentage_ of_ them w_ oulcf, at a pinoh,

provide a person with b er or spiri-ts;· would it be 50 per cent. ?-lf would take a little consideration to answer that. _, 168.-7. To your certain knowledge a considerable num-ber of them would do so ?---:-Yes. .' .

Charles Clifford Dugan, Mjnister of Religion; _ Church, sworn and exami_ ned. ·

_ 1692. B:'lf the Chairrrnan. -· -Are you a chaplain?­ . I w-as acting military chaplain for six months. · ·- 169Q:. In the Olaremon't Camp ?- I · have had no life in camp. . ,

. 16J:)4. ·H-ave you, been away with the my duties simply take- me once a 1,·:nonth -on a Sunday morning to the. camp to preaeh, I have also gone to' the ea,mp t_ o see members of my denomination whose names

were forwarded to me by their p.arf3nts.' , -

1695., Have you had an opportunity of coming direc-tly in contact with the men in .camp 1696. Could you make any ,statement as. to- whether you tbJnk drink has interfered with the efficiency of the men make no claixn' to have a very close knowledge

of rnilitary life, but as a of :Hobart, _and more

especially one who wears. clerical garb, and is therefore regarded as a fair object of prey by men of a certain type, I have seen a consiaerable an10unt of drunken-ness among ·s,ol-diers in Hobart .. , · .

1697-,.. Would they be outgoing soldiers, or returned soldiers;,· or both?-B'oth; I ·should imagine: ·Recently I · have seen little drunkenness, and what I have

seen has been confined to returned soldiers so far as I could judge -by the eolcrus on the arm. I have not

seen so _ much drunkenness recentiy as saw a couple of years ago-nothing like as much. -1698. How long have you been in Hobart ?-Fron1 before the beginning of the war .

. 1699. Can you give us any reas_ on why you think there is less drinking_ n-ow than . there was in the early part of the war?-I am a strongly convinced temperance worker, and am, therefore, speaking with a little bias

when I say that, in my judgment, t}le ea'f-ly closing of _ liquor bar&- has a great deal to do with the lessening of _ drinking. - _ -

1700. The lessening of drinking has been due a g'reat deal-to the--early closing?-Partly, and partly -from the fact that the soldiers now in camp are younger men and lads who have not yet learned to drink-:- That is

r'Q.y honest imp!ession, but p.ot what I know. I carmot say that I know it is the cause of the lessening of drink-ing; it is merely my ·opinion. -·

1701. You think that one reason is because the

younger men are less inclined to drink than older men? --I -do. r-c- 1702. From your kliowledge- ·of the people of Tas-­mania, do you ·think that the younger population are more temperate than their fathers?- the whole population of Tasmania is more temperate than the people in Victoria1 _which is the only other S1_ate that I know well and in which I spent many years. 17-03. So far as the Tasrp.anian quota is concerned, do you think tha:t drink has lessened the efficiency of the men, and made it more Qifficult for the officers to

1688. Would you- be in favour of the complete sup­ pression of those temperance ·bars?-Yes, speaking from a police point of view. The complete abolition of those temperance bars would; lead to the more

prevention of tlie unlawful sale of liquor.

. ·train them ?-Again I am compelled to give a perfectly g·eneral impression .- If men give way to drink, ·the very fact ma}res them less :fitted to be soldiers, and in view of the fact that the man who gives way to drink is less fitted to be a successful· athlete, the $arne remark applies to a soldier. I have been brought into contact 'with ... no direct evidence. I have had n.o such close

association with the mill.tary to enable me to get direct

1704. You have niet quite a number of men

who have been the worse for liquor?-Yes .

. . 1689. Have vou visited the soldiers' lounge m

Hobart?-No. " I

169D. Has it been in existence very lo11g ?-Ab(mt eight or nine months. 1691. Has its establishment reduced the arres ts -for drunkenness of those in military uniform ?-I should

think -so. - The mep about the Lounge seem to be well conducted, and very rarely is there any case of inte m­ perance or drunkmmess t here.

/

1705. 1: suppose that .some of them who are out._ of work come to you ?-I have not yet had a man- ask me to get him work. I have had them ask me for a great many other things, but not for worf.

1706. No returned soldier has complained to you that he has been badly treated in that he could not get wo rk- on his return ?-Not one. I can tell you what they 1'laYe asked me f or. One man went to the length

of askill g 1no to write to a· young lady . He waf? maudlin·

__ ,-

J

/ ·'

I

with tears and a_s stupid as could -be. He had a letter open to them is -the door of . the hotel ?-It has not

from his girl breaking off her engagement because he occurred to me, because _ I question very much _ the 1m-had been drinking. He asked me to write to her, and -plication i:J;l your _ question. ...

plead with her not to give him ·up. _ 1721. Is iF not a fact that, as a rule, strange·rs com-

1707. By .Senator Lt.-Colonel Bolton.-Wouid the ing into cities are obliged_ to go t6 hotels £or accom­ fact that you not seen so much-evidence of drink- modation ?-Unfortunately is largely true, but it

ing lately be due to the reduced. · :p_umbers in is not true in the case of Hobart.

-That is a very likely reason. _ _ 1722. There is a limited n-l1mber -of other places in

1708. _You regard Tasmanians as being much more Hobart- where accomm-odation can. be secured?-Yes, temperate p.eople than Victorians·?-Yes. or course, and when the tourist traffic is lim! ted, the places are except for a week or two I have not been in quite sufficient to meet all requirements ..

since the war broke out. · - I 1723. We have been informed that there are ap-

- 1709. Would not your impression be ·largely proximately 100 premises in Hobart?-Yes,

duced by .the uumber of people in the two States?--Tdo I - think ·the number is down to one - or two above not think so : - ninety;' ' Some time ago it ' was 107, but since then

1710. You;r impression· that Hobart is a _more tern- several ha-ve been Within the past thirty yeai·s . perate plaee than Melbourne might reasona_ bly be in- -the number J;l.as been reduced very corrsi_ der-ably. _, duced by the numbers of people you met- in Melbourne 172_4. in the meantime the population h.as in-compar-ed with tbe numbers you would encounter herel creased ?-Certainly. -

-It is quite likely, but my Tasmanian bas - 1725. In addition t_o facilities: for ·obtaining drink,

not been confined to Hobart. If it were, I should be is accommodation provided at most of- the hotels ?-I _ very cautious about saying that Tasmania is a more very muc:P, question whether you could _get decent ac-­ temperate place than Victori_a. I am speaking of Tas.:. commodation at -the majority of the licensed places in mania g-enerally. I would be very doubtful as to Hobart; certainly you could not at' the public houses.

whether i-vhat - I say about Tasmania generally would ' 1726. Is there a disti1iction between "public house" be true as applied to Hobart itself. - and_" -:.hotel is a .distinction under the Licens-

. 1711. And are you speaking generally so far as your- ing Act, but I am not prepareq _to givethe distinction expe-rience of Victori-a is conqerned ?-My experience in exact deta:i).s. · · ·

·of Victoria was very · largel.r limited to MelboJirne. 17.27. Am I correct in assuming that you would be Though I spent a few mont-hs in Gippsland, and_ in favour .of a layv -prohibiting a man from -asking dered a good deal about the State, I _ did not-stay in any another "\Vhi:tt-will you have" ?-:-I would "Qe in favour one place - very much except in !1:elbourne. I _.:was of an anti-" shouting" - law but I am in fav-our or stationed l.n Carlton, Preston, and Clifton Hili for nine .bigger ' than that, n?-mely, the entire p-ro-

years. · _ hibition of the- liquor traffic. - _ · '

1712. Your i_ s fhat Tasmania is more tem,. 1728. Will that- involve the of the im-

perate ._ than . . . p_ ortation of liq.uor?-=--Not -only but also - its ex-

. 1713. And your 1s not m1hgated :by the portation, its sale, Its carriaO"e, itS anything.

Circumstances to whiCh I have referred ?-My 1m pres- . . . · -- . 2 sion is as it cQmes to me. Whet-her it is due to the fact ___ _1_ 72_9. Woul_d .cthat also apply to wmes .-that there is a greater population in Victo; ia, it is diffi- ·Yes, as at - . . _ .

cult for me to . estimate but so far as Hobart is con- - 1730. Do you thmk there 1s the slightest poss1ble

cerned I do not regard it as a temperate place .. - legisla!ion .of _!;hat_ king appr.o:red

1714. By .Senator Grarit:-Do _ y.ou know the relative__,· by the of. .Austraha-?--I am 1)-0t 1n a strengths of tlw heers used in Sydney or Melbourne _ to speak of th.e electors of th-e ot_her States, but I w1sh compared with those used in Hobart ?-I am thanldul that the Tasmanian State Parliament_ would give an to say that I know nothing about the strength of beers. - ·opportunjty- to test -the electors of Tasmania. I have -

1715. That is from your o1vn persona-l experience?- _ not the .least- as to- wl1at the -rEpSnlt would be. From my own personal drinking- I know nothing in We would get a·n overwhelming 1najority·ror total pro--regard to _ it, and I _haYe never made it an· object of hibition. _ - _

study, but I do know enough to say that when ·one 1731. vVo.uld that involve compensation for the gentleman thought - the strength. of beers should be growers ?-In -my · judgment no compepsation should ,diminished- to 12 per cent. or 10 per cent. of alcohol, he - .be given. I do not admit the right of compensation was speaking with no great knowledge. _ to any one who is 'engaged i11 this .traffic. At the same

1716. Have you any knowledge of how temperance _ ti:i:ne, if th_ e only to get rid ' of it 'is hy paying a - bars q,ttached to hotels are conducted inside know-:.. certain ·amount of compmisation, it would be very ledge, but I certainly have an outside know}edge. I s-ee cheapl:f bought out if it got fair I .do

very suspicious characters standing outside hotels, and not admit the inoral ·right-to compensation. I wonder why they are there. !fore . than once I have 1732 -=- Is it no_t _a fact _ tha.t so long the hotel

seen bottles being carri·ed away from hotels at night keeper conducts his business in a legitimate lawful time. One night a gentleman was carrying away a manner he is entitled to a renewal of his_ right to sell bottle from an hotel when he saw me, and very rapidly liquor ?______:I ' do not consider that E:e "is. His right to placed it under his rapidly that-it -slipped and , sell -liquor is given to hiiii-lor one year only, and if at broke on the pavement. . . - · , the end -of the year it is seen fit to take that away-

- 1717. What was he c.arrywg away ?-By the _ odo_ ur everything else is le-ff to him: o 1 n: general.ly finds at hotel doors as he,passes, I should _ 1'7 33 . Ifave any in Ta:smarii;, to your

tmnk that lt was beer. . . ._ . . _ knowledge; where that Tlght h as ·been taken away at

1718 . ..._1\.re ·y?u the :mpreSSlOn that more than the end of the year, though the hotelkeeper has . con­ temperance drmks are . . sold, m. the temperance bars. at- - ducted his business 'in a legitimate manner ?-No. - · tached to hotels ?-I am dec1dedly under that 1m- - . . . . . .

pression:_ _ 1734 .. So that, 1n now 1s t_h!lt .a

1719. Would you be in favou_! of closing all tern- vested to dnnk lias grown up, and 1f 1t

perance bars attached to licensed houses?-Yes. can be got nd of In no -other way you would -very

1720. na·s· it ever occurred to you that. men coming reluctantly agree to compensation?-:Very .reluctantly. • . into a city require some place to go to, and ·.that as -. 1735. vVho get that compensatiOn. Would

all other doors are closed against then1 ·the only 4door mclude the-barmaids or -the barmen ?-I have not gone

into all1 the details of #an Act for .compE;nsating liquor­ -sellers i11 the of - prohibitio-n, and I .§LID not pre­

pared -to , questions specifically without very

thought- first. -

1736. Yq_u _have not giyeu tblt aspect of the . ques­ tion -Close attention ?-No. I frankly admit that it ·seems to me that if a woman to-adopt the pro ..

fe.ssion of "ba::rmaid she is 'hot a woman worthy o.f re­ ceiving much compen,sa,tiort . I! ma.y he misjudging t he_ - w_omen, but I am -saying that quite frankly. -_ _ -1737. Ther-e is also .the owner of the on which .

the hotel st ands, also the- licensee, who invested his­ moooy in t h e good-will ?-So' far as my knowle'dge th ere has never yet been an 'instance of land depreciat­ ing_ in vahle where a no tel -ha.s been closed.. I know ·

of several instances to the contrary in Hobart. · . 1738. Can_ you -give the figures for those few places? -No, but I can name the places. 1739. ·_Were they ho_ tels or p'ublic houses ?-I cannot

say: -

1740.-- In cases- of that kind the land-owners ·would lose nothing -by . the withdrawal o-£ the ,. right to sell liquor their property?-The l and -pwner certainly - loses nothing_ . H e is a- gainer. . -

1741. By.rSenator-- Buzaco tt.-Have you seen any ill­ . effects -caused through drink on the homes of soldiers who are away at the front ?-N of at first hand. I have heard of such cases o-n very reliable evidence.

1_742 . T take it that_you are in f avour -of the preven­ tion of the manufacture-_ and sale of Tasmanian cider? ---:-Y e_ s, if . it be an alcoliolic liquor a __ cert_?.in

stl:engfh. I - suppose that a cert ain strength is almost essential e-ven in a ternperance drink: _ , 1'743. Are you· a-vntre-,that in some of the States of the Oommon-vvealth-the Governments have gone so far

as to provide vine-growers with v_ in_ es in order

to -m}cour-age -them to grow vineB ; il)_ the event of pro­ hioition_ being broug?-t in,_ would you be in fa,rour of those vine-growe rs ?-There again I

would like to -give the matter very , careful thought _ before answering; and to- kJ;10-::w all the facts of th0

' '

their enlisting ?-I have met parents who did not with­ hold their consent, but to wh<1m it was a cause of distress that their sons _would be subject to grea.t temptations through alco_h olic indulgence. '

1749. Have you noticed among the meri wh en troope are passing 'through H obar t, and th1;3 -hqtels are closed, any indications of drinking ?_:_ I have, but I would be _ from prepared to commit myself to the statement

that they- get' drink just - same. r-can say ·quite

honestly that at _a time when t ransports are here, and the hotels are supposed to be closed, I have -seen evi-dence of drinking. _

1750. Would that be to any great or only, to

a limited degree ?--=--I am pre-pared to use the

word "great," _but I can say that it goes on. to a fajr -extent. If you a-sked _me what happened befor e the hotels were closed I would have no hesitation in usin g the word "£reat."

_ 175-1.- From that remark I would judge that you arc quite of the opinion that the early closing of h otels h as bFought about a vast improvement both to the so ldiers thfl civilian _ population?-Yes, I am decidedly of

_ tP,at opinion. I am also of opinion tp_at, in the course of another fQur or; :five years it will bring about a stilJ greater ·

17-52 . H ave returned men called to see you on ;:tny matters ?-I have. often seen men whom I lnievv before they -vvent a:way, and I nave been frequently pulled up ·in the street and asked for the' price of a· bed, or a

meal, or some_ other such thilig,_ by· men whom I judged be returned soldiers.

' 1753. Is it f air ask you your impression goner­

. ally of those men as to whether what they soughtr fo r was only an exr,use to get· money for ,drink ?-I am loath to· attribute to any man _ anything but the highest

motives. - I wo uld not say that they wer'e trying to money --fo r drink. _

1754. :-.Among the men who h ave returned, and . .:who ­ - you knew before they went away,. have yo u-noticed any­ thing that wo uld indicate a shatteri11g of the I noticed it very markedly iri one instance. -A bright

ease. -- "'youpg_ I was throug-l1 the battle of

:. 17 44. Before aavocati:o.g prohibition y.ou recognise He seemed a different lad altogether, quite lifeless,

that you have tE> show effectively 'ho'w it carl 15e brought spirit]ess, _and broken down; into operation ?-I that there is - 1755. In such a case as that vou would think it a

difficulty through -the conflict bet•..veen the State ::;,nd serious thing to put in his ·way?-Yes ; gener­ the Federal laws. I maii1tain that the Tasmanian State al1y speaking. That lad was _one of fine up bringing and Government could prohibit liquor traffic in principles, iJi whose determination to withstand,

this community. - The Commonwealth Government cer- temptation I would not have the least doubt, but, tainly has the power to prohibit' the importation into speaking-general1y, if there were many men in the same Australia, and I think that the Federal Parliame;nt lras condition, I should t hink it was a Yery serious . thing to . the power to take a referendum on -the quest10n ?f · put temptation . in t heir way. .

wliether the Federal Constitution should be altered m o_rder to i11c1ude the administration of alllicensi'ng laws. 1756. By the Chairman.- vVe would like to know I believe the people would vote in of r.efer- whethm; you think it was the fault of the administra­

endm11, and then we cop_ld get Austrahan -proh-1b1tiOn. tion _or the men's ovln fault that they should · b__ ave to 17 45. So far as the evil effects of intoxicating drinks come to you and ask for money for a bed, 6r for · some­ on soldiers are concerned, you think that the only way thing to eat ?-I think it was t he f ault of the adminis­ of lesseningc their effect would be to have tration in allowing liquor bars to be kept open, and

-- N o, I think that anti-" shouting " would undemably the fault of the men in yielding to temptation to drink. lessen- drinking am011g soldiers. These meil were in an intoxicated condition in the

· 17 46. Beyond anti-" shouting,'_ ' have-. yo u -any other majority of cases when they came to me. I have never -recommendation ?-The early closing Act should be · had the case of a man coming to me and asking for made universal throughout the Commonwealth, I anything of whom I had any doubt that the cause of • - _] . k it was drink. '

that a lessening of the har.m- c.aused by r

could be brought about by a r eductiOn lll -the alcohohc strength of drinks. ' '

1747: You h ave never been into hotels to see whc·ther . intoxicating drink is kept in temperance bars ?___:_I hav:e never been in, I have 1]-0 intention of ever being ..

in unless it be for some ;sg,ry unforeseen reason . 1748. -By Senato1· G?.{.y.-Have you in yo ur capacjty of minister ever met any parents who, because of the danger to their sons, have di-ffidence in consenting to _

1757. B y Senator Gnt,nt .-How many have waited upon you asking for aid?-The absolute minimum, so as to be perfectly honest, would be, say, twenty. 1758. Over what per1od ?-I have only had the ex­ perience once or twice durip.g the last twelve months: Prior to that it was not by any means an infrequent experienne. I believe that I would be justified in say­ ing that there wer\3 more than twenty cases, but I wish to run no risk, and so I put the number down as twenty.

' -

9-0

- George Henry _ Sydney Cummings, Secretary of the 1 'l74. Judgirig f;o:m that, you would think t]lat it has Tasmanian _ Temperance Alliance sworn - and the same effect on soldiers ?-I do. ·

examined: 1 _. 1775. Would you be surprised to know that it docs

1759 .. By the Chai:rman._:_Vfie have asked you to give not affect the Tasmanian soldiers?-! would be very some evidence as to whether drink has interfered with _ - ·

the efficiency or morale of soldiers., or' rendered it , 1776. I take it that you have given some little

more difficult for the military authorities to perform thought and -attention to the question_ of ,drink as it is their part of the work from a military stand-point?- associated with .soldiers, ana that you have come to the The. soldiers at present in camp s/eem to be a very much conclusion that in some way it does interfere with their . more sober body of men than those who were in camp general efficiency?- I am undoubtedly of that

in the earlier stages of the war. I take it that the mo.st 177(r.· Why havA yon - <;OJl'tf; to that ccmc1usion ?­ adventuroub and . wildest responded to the first call. I know that men are ou t of the Forces because ·drink The men now in camp are a very steady lot, but at the got the best of them. I that others who attempted same time the,re is an amount. of drinking going on in to enlist were rejected, and if you called the doctors the city while they are ol) You can see soldiers who examined them at the Oil-y H .all, I think that they in hotels during the after 6 o'clock at night, would substantiate the fact that in the case of these

and on Sundays. , · men drink had rendered them inefficient. If public

1760. I take it that you can see civilians doing exactly houses had -not claimed these men, their country pro-the bwbly have done so. ,

1761. Would ·you say that the soldiers should have -177 8. I understand that you ar·e- here to-day some-right than the civilians to indulge in a glass what in a repr_esentative capacity

drink so long as it is not over 10 per cent. in strength?-:- i779. I take it that you have made the statement If any one should be penalized so far as indulgence is ' that drink_ has been interfering, se1jously with the ·concerned it should be the civilian, and not the saldier. efficiency of the -soldiers imd the general performance Providing the drink does: him no harm, the soldier of tlreir duty?-That is so.

should not be under any greater disability than tho , - -

civilian. - 1780. What has induced you 'to make that statement?

1762. Can you give us any direct evidence as to ----Observation of the· men in the streets. 1 saw a soldier whether drinking does ·interfere.with the training of the 5 ft. 10 in. in height knocked down in the street one soldier ?-Soldiers have come to me under the influence night by a little w.hipperimapper o:f about 5 ft. 2 in., of drink, and asked me to administer -the total abstin- who had been for ineffic.iency. The soldier was ence pledge to them: I have been accosted by them, drunk, and . the other man -was practically

and asked for money to pay their fares. On other _oeca- sober; sions we , have been asked to put them up at a homo . 17i31 . . Among a large numher of meu one will always with which I am connected-that is, the Haven for Men. find some who will disgraQe the1r position ?-Quite so. 1763. That is a horne for qivilians as well as soldiers? There was another case of a man who enlisted, and brok-e --Yes. ·---- leave, and came tQ me. I him- in the haoo.ment of

_1764. _Since war started you have had a fair per- my-shop for about five hours, but could do nothing with centage of soldiers coming to that horne ?--;-No_ t many. him. Eventually he discharged. When he came We have had cases, and some of them have been fairly into _-town he used to drink. bad. · 1782. his case there ' was a waste of energy ai; d

1765. Do you send men there who are . the- w·orse for expense on behalf of the Government ?-He put in liquor, or can any one go there?- -Any one can go. there some months -_training, wliich cost the country some-and have a bed and breakfast. · ·t-hing, and that money was lost simply through liquor.

1766. A -certain number of soldiers have utilized the 1783. Are there a considerable number' of cases simi-establishment?-Yes. ' lar .to would not say that there are a eont:lider-

'1767. And a . certain percentage of thm.;- have been able number, but there are quite sufficient (}ases to make t_he worse for . ._: , it a seri(:)us matter. -

' 1768. Have you any idea of what the percentage of 1784. Do- you think there is more drinking in Hobart soldiers who become the worse for liquor is in com- - now than there was before the war?-I believe there is parison with the whole quota ?-I should say t}lat it is drinking. The con;ictions in the Hobart Police not above 5 per cent. or 10 per cent. - It is a pretty hard . Court, in 1913, for cases which I with drink­

thing to de:t;ine. "'ing, disturbiP.g the peace, drunkenness, breaches of pi:o-

1769. When you speak of" the worse_ for liquor/' you hibition orders, assaulting the police, and so forth, do not mean a ·map who has a glass of totalle_ d 660. Last year they numbered 305. In the

.......,.No;, I refer to a man who is unsteady. -"' · same period the breaches' in the I,icensiug Act increased

1770. The man who could not walk straight along from 89 to 121. a chalk line ?-I will tell.you how I have decided it. I . ·have bee.n ' to the railway station on several occasions, and observed the percentage of 1Ilen who seem to be

under the influence of drink. Out of 100 men it was· nothing startling to see five of them -

1771. If 5 per cent. of the men were unsteady, it­ would make it more difficult to tra in the men in camp, and would interfere with ·their efficiency as an employer, the man who comes to your place under

the influence of drink is to deal with. I

should say that the soldier who came to camp· under influence of drink would be hard to deal with. 1772. If you were employing -100 men, and five of were continually the worse for liquor, you would

find it difficult to carry on with them ?-That is so. i773. If men in your employment have been having a jolly time the evening before) does ·it affect their_ ability to , do - their work on the following Certainly.

_ ·1785. Would you infer that the police wen3 able to render more efficient service during that time,_ or that they were more successful in getting convictions?-The operation of the six o'clock .closing has bFought the breaches of the Licensing Act. It was authorita­ tively stated at the last meeting of the Licensing Beneh that there were at least seventy spies employed for ilJ e purpose of the efforts of the p_ olice. There

are. few or pubiic houses in Hobart that 'have not got sentries on guard. 1786. You think there is less drunkenness on account of tlie six closing?-I believe so. The figures,

in regard to the consumption of liquor, are not alto­ gether of value the quantity of liquor that is

purchased in Sydney and Melbourne, and comes here is 'not r ecorded in the Customs Department.· The quan­ tities entered for home consumption at the Customs Department, and the beer brewed in Tasmania 2;1 pon

547

''

91

I ... _

which Excise duty is pa-id, amounted to 1,449,223 gal­ lons in. 1916, and 1,404,813 gallons last year, a de--crease of 44,410 gallons. -

1787. Hobart has '&ene:fited by a certain amounH­ I think so .

There has boeu dri:uking ?---1 think so.

r 1789. And yo\1 put it dow n to the early closing?­

Yes. · _ · 179

1806. Do any of those c.omplaii1ts relate to restric­ tions in the matter of getting drink; I presume that they would not come -to you with -such a com·plaint ?­ They are not likely to do so.

1807. , it assist the nation to put i orward a

much greater e:fio:t,· t in this time by prohrt>ition; if eve1:y one was sober and temperate would it enable the nation to put forth a much greater effort ?-I believe it because it would relieve the cities of iots of

young· fellows who spend much of thejr time in public houses. It is quite well known in Hobart that a m.tm-ber of them do that. ,. - · ·

1791. Can you say from personal experience _whether ·temperanC(:3· bars attached to hotels defeat the prin­

Clples : of the E arly Closing Act ?- I have lJ.O personal but_ I seen men go into hotels per- 1808. Have _known of bodies of soldiers to do

fectly sobef after six o'clock and come out at ten o'clock damage. to · property in- Hobart, or between very much' the worse. for liquor. · the city and Olaremqnt ?---;;-I have had no personal know-

. 1792. I take it that most of these men who drink J'edge of that matter; but a newspaper reporter told me are men who drank -before they joined the Army·?:_In that he had prepared a report of seriou13 ..damage. to a most of the cases that I have heard of. There are not railwa..y carriage, but was ordered to drop it. many who have taken to dr{nk siuce joinj ng the Army, 1809. What· is the difference between a "public_

and they may have done it in civil life. _ house" and an "hotel" in Tasmania ?--An .hotel has to

1793. The overwhelming majority would be men who have a numbei· of rooms for lodgers. are

were addicted to drinking in civil yeS. very few hotels. N.ot a quarter_ of t he licensed premises

1794. If anything is to be -done we have to deal with · in IIobart are licensed hotels. the civilians by way /of remedy ?-YeB. · . 1810. How long have you been in Hobart ?-:For

1795. \Yhat would be yo ur so lution ·of the forty-two years. _

- T]lere _ 1S only one, and thllt is absolute prohibition. 1811. you say whether ther_ e are many less hotels OtheJ2. remedies will mend m.atters, -but the idea is to pubhc houses....in Hobart nolV than there were forty­ cureAhe evi] and not simply patch it up: Anti- - two years .ago ?-The number is considerably less. ' " shouting " has been talked of a good deal. It would are dropp1ng out every year. . ·

be a fine thing if it co uld be administered but if the soft drink bars cannot be administered . how Would you say !rom .your knowledge of these

are we going _to administer a la)V of anti-" shouting." houses that there is a fair proportion of them who 1796. You advocate the prohibiticm of temperance ... would' get a shock if you asked them for a night's lodg- -!;>ars in hotels ?-:Most certainly. _ ings ?-Quite a number of them would ..

1797. -By . Senator Guy.-It i s of vital importance 1813. l!...,rom they have no accommoda-

-v_ ve shol!-ld be clear about that 5 '0r 10 per cent. of tion ?-That is so. You could not get a meal, either.

d ld b d h · .Ll •

1 . 1814. That is the class_ of house that is mostly being

men sal wou .e un er t e lnHnence of Iquor; closed?- A few houses that took in . a few coun- ·

I take 1t that you mean 5 or 10 per cent. -of -th e men who would then be in Hobart out of eamp try people are nmv absorbed in warehouses. .A 1eading

1798. It would not be 5 or 10 per cent._of the whole .., commercial traveller's house was pulled down to make of the soldiers ?-No. I would have no means of telling way for another building. what was going on in the _ camp. · 1815. Have yo u heard of a provision in a certain

1799. It would be _ 5 or 10 per cent. of the men you European country .by which all ·bars have to be abso-saw .on any particula-r Yes. . lutely separate from the living p1·emises, and there is

1800. C?mpared with the earlier part. o{ the war, · no entrance to the bar from the house, and only from do tha.t there is atly great improvement in the street the front of _the door. be of

the drmklng ·habits of the so ldiers ?-I ·think there is · ?lear glass Without bhnds ?-That 1s a prov1s1on m force a considerable improvement. _ 1n some parts of the United States of America. I have

1801. Would · it be. -a compa1:ative impr

cause yo u must remember that there are less men in rate from the r es1dental part, that the mner door should camp then _ there w€re in the days; would have a pacgock on _ _ . the inside, · and , the front door a

st1ll be . that percentage of improvement among padlock on the outside, so that the who wants. to

the number _9 f men you would see?- y es . . up only do so from the o_utslde before go1ng

. '1802 .. What is your :lmpression i_n regard to the yo ung 1nto the res1dental pa:·t prem1ses.

men bemg the temperate ?-I should say that that , 1816. By the Chatrman.-J?o I unqerstand Y?U to was case. It is more men of middle age who say a _ paragraph coneerrung damage to a railway

. are principally addicted to drink. - carnage was ordered to be taken out of a newspaper?___,..

1803. In other words the men who have arrived at The reporter told :ine so.

.and had the habit of drinking · 1817. Do yo u kn?w by whom it orclored to be

before enhst1ng have -continued that habit?-Yes. dropped, by the edito r or by the mihtary consor Do . you ever hear any complaints from men in -could not say.

umform who are more temperate in their habits than 1818. So far as yo u know the military censor may the other_ s that a few_er of_ the others take drink to have prevented the paper fro_m publishing it ?-I do cess, and, perhaps, brmg d1sgrace on the lot of. them?- not .Some mon ths back thei'e were considerable In /the 4ays when they had tents_ at the camp I had complaints of the _conduct of th.e men on. our trains.

men telhng me that they could get no sleep because of I headed a dep utat10n to the State Commandant on the a few drunken men in a tent. matter, and he promised to have it seen to, . and have

18-0-5. Have yo u heard complaints from men in the the trains inspected. Since then I believe things are camp or from returned men about th eir general treat- ever so much better. ment by the publie or by the military authorities ?-I 1819. By 8enato1· G1·ant .---S.ince the war commenced am .afraid that there are quite a number of r eturned have you known of any man who has been prevented sold1ers who grumble about their treatment; they have from proceeding to the Front on account of

a grievance, either fancied or reaL I gave one instance this afternoon. ·

_ 1820._ You can o1; ly -recoPect_ one particuJ.ar case?-.­ !;have heard of but that was o:p.e that came under particular observation. I - can swear to that

ca se, but . not to others. 1821. ,During three years you know of ·only .... one.case in ·which that lias happened know of two _cases. / 1822. How many men have gone througl!_ the camp

during that time ?-·-I only know .:.. what I have seen in the newsp_apers. 1823. Would you- r,egtctrd the fact t-hat during three r year·s two men have been preveilted fi·om going to the

Front on account of the excessive rise of drink as thing of a character t-If my versonal know­

ledge was extended · to the personal know ledge of.....other meu the numbe.r would be considerably al­

though· it would be- few out of 13,000

men.

92

1837. ·After 6 o'clock?-Yes. ,.,

_ 1838. Do the p-olice take any objection, to I do not think that.- the police can any obJect10n.

. There is no law against it. ·

1839. -8o that soldiers are entitled to come into

dl'ink .'as as they like and -go away

loaded up with as much as they can carr.y outwardly? :__Except that there is a regulation that they not

carry it into camp. , - ·

1840. They coulji , dri; k it on the way out to the

- camp ?-That is so. 1841. Do yo1a 'Know of the ex-i_s.tence of any sl.y-grog shops in Hobar-t ?-I hope that you are not gomg to get me into a liod case. - 1842._, Have you -any to believe that

a fmv- sly-grog shops in HobartJ-.l am of the opm10n that there are 'several. -

J .843 .. Has the number of :....Shops increased

' since hotels were- ·closed at 6 o'clock ?-I do not think

· _ 1824. How ofteu.p.ave you been to the raifway station dnring the last three years, and seen mf>n -going back tp the camp ?-"-About a dozen times. 1B25. And so far- as you can recollect on aj 1 average -

80 '1844. Why do· the- police shut then1 up ?-Be- :,;

you saw five _or six soldiers unste_ ady?-Yes; unsteady. f h d'ffi 1 f f d T ·

I do not s.ay that t4y were drunk. _ ,

_o t _ e , 1 cu ty o un . er our asmarnan

-. aws.

'1 826 . . Haye you any experience as to how the Lounge - · 1845. would you favour a the people

recently established for the use gf soldiers in Hobart. is of Ta'Smania, or preferably by the people of the Oom­ co:nduetecl ?-I have b8en there, ·but J cannot . say that rnonwealth, as to whether they ar e in favour of the I u nderstand the workings Df it. - complete of the.., importation,- sale,· manu-

,1827. Have you-heard that .the Germans, as a and Qf intoxicati';ng

are very much addited to drinking lager beer, that I think that is the only fair_and logical way. Any other they are a very stubborn, · stiff-necked Jot ?-It is very reform effected dra_stic legislation ·would probably common knowle-dge that· the:>;: are a lager-be_ er-drinking_ -defeat itself. I believe that in t his .. matter .. people. · / - _ _ · _ - the of the. people should absolutely rlile. . _

-1828: -Would you be surprised to learn that we · 1_846. D.o you ' not know that th e people, as a rule, had evidert_ce showing tlmt men who- i_!:1dined- to -are very· c_ onservative and reluctant to-bring_-about an y drin_ k to excess are the best ·in the trenches ?-I would i10t think there are any more conserva­

be surprised. to learn it. . tiye people in the world than there are in Tasmania, yet

1829. Hmv many men· each yeat make use o£ the they were in Iavemr of 6 o'clock _ by a acconimodation at The liaven you spea_ k of?-I do not 184'1.--.rn· the great· maj.ority of cases the }:l ave: know. _ _ / _ s.aid " N o'" when referendums h a..ve beer( held. T-hat

. 1830. Can you give us ar1y of the p:roportion of so, do you not thiillt that there 1s 3; risk of 11aving

the soldiers 2v-ho are obliged tq make use of_ it ?..:_No. a proposition of this k.ind defe.ate·d if it is t o

· The name_ s are recorded acco1;ding to the _law in a book the peopleJ-:-I am the opinion that a ,.. referendurri .oJ t which is kept, b11t there is no recoi'd-made as to whethm this -questiQJ-1. be .carried throlJ:ghout the the _ man is a or a . _ . . -of Australia. B.·ut_ eve:g if it ' was Ji?t

18.31; You - have seen s.oldwrs there ?,--l;es; · a -fmv · of the peo.ple shou1d rule. I would hke to''t< ake t11e n sk , ::: men e11listed f rom: -. . and tJtke my-share of organizing _ .

, 1832. Is it a fact - that traveller s teinpoTarily in 18·48. You understan d _ that in- with the

Hobart- can ·be .supplied with drink in hotels at any driri:ktraffic there are:fairly substai1tial ii1terests J:.our of the clay or night-?-A boarder _who is lodging that would natura:lly figlit very vigoJo:usly- for_ th .. e in an ho te l can be supplied at any tiine. _ - - tention of the. privileges which they ncrw enjoy. Have

- 1833. Are ,thQ soldiers who come in from Clarey you any idea· amount _ of money ,iested in- public mont regarded as · travellers who are entitle d to ge t - houses, brewe:ries, and in- Tasmania ?-,.Parlia: drink ?-Yes. The 'Sunday tni:'ding . radi us is . i11ent has be8ll m:table ' to get the info_ rmation so- far limited.to sev_ en miles, as against twenty mile.s in Vic- as I kn.ow: The ·question has been asked several

toria and twenty-five Ih iles in New }Vales. obut ·has never been 'answered. . '

1834. When a soldier 'comes into Hobart · and n.1_akes 1849 .- -Are the . :figures disclosed in the retur-n given application for intoxicating drink jn hotel J1e .is by i on as to importation and of beer

entitled to get it through the so- called temperance bar or . ?-:--They are the OustomB figures. Very htt1e otherwise ?-He can get· it fr.o:rp. the _liquor har at all beer Qomes here from the mainland., except some Carl-' times. , ' ton ale · but a good de_al of imported spirits and, wine

1835. Inste'ad of ·a soldier being ·h_ andicapped .he is come t he other States, and as the duty is , paid privileged citizens of Hobart ?-That is wh.flt in the States there is no req,ord in the, Ous_ toms

' I say. A·ny man in uniform is presumab1y a soldier in - Bep-ai'tment. here as ' to _what passes from those other camp who has travelled in, altho11;gh ·he ll1ay have been States to Tasmania. - ·.

in town on a leave,. If he sleeps in t gwn ·he · is, 18..50. Do you believe _ that the fact that t he cqnsump­

not to get a arink when the hotel is closed, tion was less ·in 1917 than in 1916 was due to the early

but it is hard to pr.ove. A policeman may pounce on closing hotels ?-Yes. - ·

100 men before he gets one who has broken the law. _ -1851. Is it not a fact · that owing to the depa.rture 1836. Does the traffic in bottled ale ·have a de tri- of -8ome -13,000 men the -population of has

- wen tal effect upon the soldiers; do , they take away . been greatly reduced has been a slight reduc-·

cargoes of bottled beer have been entitled tion. _

to get as much as they can carry . awas inwardly - 1852. Would not that ,reduction in t-he population

have seen soldiers ca-rrying bottles coming away_ from · account for a very large proportion Of that reduction hotels, of 44,410 gallons -in the· consumption of beers and

93

(Taken at Hobart.)

FRIDAY, _22Nn FEB"RUARY,

P resent :

spirits between the ··years 1916 and 1917 ?-I am not prepared: to brand the whole of those 13,000 men as drinkers. In any. 13,000 men have not gone away since 'the beginning of 1916. On the ·p-roportiorr of /

5 per cent. each of the or 700 -men ·who ·might be

classed as the drinkers among the 13,000 have

tq be fairly, heavy drinkers to account for the . whole of Senator THOMA:3)

that 44,410 gallons. Each man would have-to -drink 70 Senator Lt.-_ Col. I

Chairman;

gallons per annum. _ . , . · Senator Buzacott, -

1853. Po you -not. think that it would be necessary Senator .Grant,

Senator Guy, -'Senator CoL Rowell.

to provide compensation for the vineyard owners and ' captain Thomas :Herbert Goddard, medical hop -growers and other people interested in the liquor practitioner, sworn and examined,

trade if prohibition was brought' aboi1t?-There are no vineyards in Tasmania. Thel'e are some hops gr.Qwi1, 1868. By- the -chair·man.--Are you asso-ciated with . but as t he brewers in Tasmania do no use more than the Army?-I nave been one of the can1p medical forty to'hs 0 { hops per afi1]..um it is not '3, big item. Last officers · for the last ni_ne months, and for about three ·

year 1,495,080 gallons were brewed in Tasmania under m.ontl:is of that time I visitea R-oseneath Hospital for the heading of "not elsewhere included" and 24,480 returned soldiers daily, and for the last six m-0nths every gallons were brewed ·exclusively from barley-malt . and second dU:y. For twd and a half years I was sellior hops. These figures show that son1ething other than surg-eon aLthe Rohart. Hospital, ·and in the latter por­

hops, barley and . malt goes into the be.er. tion of that time most o.f, the seriously sick soldiers were

. 1854. What is it that makes beer so attractive to the sent in to that institution, and for a certain period all_ average man ?-That insidious thing in it called---alcohol, the venereal cases. which sets up a cra-:.;ring for it, and that-is why is 1869. You have -not been to the Front ?-No.

never known to quench a thirst on it. 1870. Have::z you com-e to the conclusion that drink

1855. Have_ you had any personal experience of , has interfered to some extent with the efficiency or drinking beer' ?-No. I ' signed the pledge at fourteeri morale of a c:ertain nuniber -of the men has inter­ years of age. I had drunk a- little beer before that f ered -with .the and, to a slight eX'tent, with

time. - - the morale of a certain number of the men, I have pre-

1856-"Do yotl. know any men who have been pared a Of the recruits rejected at Clare­

placed in· poSitions in Tasmania and have· lost them mont ·since beginning of Septen1ber, 191J, 12 per in consequence of their inteniperate ·habits?-Y es. cent. · to 13 per cent. have been rejected because ·of 1857. \V ere they othen:vise fairly fit,- or were they alcoholism, eYideneed by well-known physical signs, and · men who hay been addicted to dTink prior -to their c_onfirmed in nearly all cases /by their OIVll admissions ·enlistment, or had they suff5J red frorri shell-shock or when told that they must answer all health questions

otherwise at the Front ?-It is an undoubted fact that under the War Precautions Act. A penalty attaches the man who comes back suffering from shell-shock a1Td in the cases of wilful deceit. In most of these cases, the nervous strain has not the same will-power as the men have given us the· admissi,on that they h ave been -man who goes away. He succumbs much more easily. heav:y drinkers) thougli they_ have withheld the info.r­

I know of some such cases. rnation from the examining coui1try do ctor. Continued

1858. D_? you- know of as many as four eases?-Yes. alcoholic excess that evinces these well-known signs i1 s Out• of the men who -have come back there is a fair pr.o- considered -to be a definite harrier to suc-cess as a soldier. portion who have not -the same ·_will-power that they , ..., A few of the signs man would" notice would

had before they went away. - . - be unsteadiness of the muscles in performing certain

1859. W ere they men who drank moderately prior actions-shaking of the hands and -t-rem_ bling of the to enlistment ?-Several of _ them did. tongue-an_d the facial- appearance-the little veins of

1860 . . Were they non-drinkers ?;:_I know of only one the che_ek and nose being dilated, the nose being enlarged who was a non-drinker. befo-re he went away·. and red, the -eyes being watery, congested, or yellow. 1861. Did he acquire the habit of drinking while he The medical man finds these signs iii association with was abroad?-Yes. - . . . oth-er facts, such as changes in the heart and arteries

1862. you visited the Claremont Camp from showing dege-neration. We have these men

-time to time ?-I have been out there a number of apd discovered what w:e considered to be these signs o£ times and conducted pledge-signing meeting.s. I was alcoholism, and we have asked them on their oath whe­ the first to cause to be erected galvanized hut for ' -they V[ere heavy drinkers, and they have admitted

recreation purposes. The mission w!th which I am it. That is in regard to 12 or 13 per cent. of the

connected did it before the YJ\LC.A. started. meJ;J. who h ave been turned out by th-e two camp medical 1863. Are the-establishments erected by the Y.JYLC.A. -officers. From the 1st September of last year , 115 :te­ and,_churches generally of advantage to the- soldiers '1:- cruits were turned dow:n altogether by us at the camp, They are an· ab.solute ·salvation to many of them. and fourte-en of those were vvhat we considered definite

1864. Do you not think, for the welfare of the case:;; of Others might be, but we would

soldiers and in fairness to the whole community, that not pin our word· down in regard to them. Men suffer- ­ all buildings of that kind should be erected and main- irtg from alcoholism are not fitted to S'band the strain ta,ined by the. Defence Department a·t the national ex- of warfare, and that is why they wer-e rej ected. If you _ do th.at you take away the personal _ those men were placed in of cold and

element. -It would become a routin(;l matter instead of dam'P, they would be more likely to co_ ntract pneumonia., one i"n which_personal interests play a part. Personal It would go much more heavily with them than in the effort counts for a great deal in those sort of things. case of other men. I have another list o.f five men who By S enato'C -Buzacott.-You have nothing to have been boarded -out of -camp. They were passed into

do in an capacity with the soldiers ?-No. camp by us in the hope that they might stand-the strain,

1866. Have you ever lived in a country where pro- but we to turn tnem out. Altogether, there hav-e

hibition is the law have lived nowhere in Tas- bee11 114 men boarded out.

n1an1a. 1867. Have you visited New Zealand or the Old Country since anti-" shouting" bas come into opera­

--

1871. Over what period ?-Over a -considerable length of time. 1872. But there are only £ve. cases due to drink?­ That is ·so.

/

)873. After they had beeti officially accepted?- Y es. · absent from the Details Camp here througli drink £or 187 4. Of course, you take every care to see that only several days after his discharge; I was , drinking whe:a . those men who are qualified join, that is, from the infected, .arid has been seen under the influence several stand-point-of drink?--Yes., we m:ake a special point of- -times since he was dischar.ged-; K is a.. continual heavy

that. '- drinker; L was very often P,runk .in Launceston while a

1875. Can you give any idea as to why the remainder patient in the Base Hospital them, and now dis­ of the 114 were boarded but tm_derstanding charged; M was not known to be drunk at any time;·

' that I ntight be aRked why so many men were tu.rned . N to be a teetotaller'; ..0 was under the iniluence

, down, I have prepared a statement. With_ regard to. the of drink when affected; Q is a man never drinks to m_en in camp who are undergoing training, I have not ·excess, but is continually with women of all kinds, and found any marked effect of alcohol on them during the has beEjn in hospital again with re-infection; S has had nine months that I have been camp medical officer; previous infection, -but his state when infected is not bn t, of course, it has been a small cam.p. Sick parades k'nowJl, though he has been .seen under the influence of nre n.ot noticeably larger after leave!night, but I would drink since being discharged; T infected while on y-· not atta·ch undue signi:fi.Qance to that fact, because it is leav·e in Melbourne coming home; his -state not being

quite possible :for a man to have a pretty heavy night known; V was under the influence o£ d1ink wh-Etn in­ in town and slee.p it off, and, although he is not too fected the nrst time, ru1d was absent without leave, and good next i:n:orning, still be on parade. A certain num- drinking for several days, when re-infected; X was ?f .. the men . do Dil _ sick de. It is not under the influence o-f drink when infected, and was

conBitlered a V'ei'y good_ thmg for them lf· th·ey have to a:bsent without leave an.d drinking since being go on sick parade. - charged with detention, .and so the list goes on. The

1876. Supposing a inan ha$ been drinKing moderately, retur.ned soldier is the man for whom we have the and has his sleep, -and attends the parade neX't morn- most solicitude. I have given a gooq many 51-nresthetics ing, do, you think he is able to -do his work just the to these men, and am convinced· that in a large number as if he had ll·ot been I should not of cases of the men who 'have gone through the stress

think so. and strain of tlie battle:field, and been wounded, and

..... are now returned after having had several operations

_ 1877. You would he somevrhat _surp.rised if you heard with discharging wounds; thEl nervous makeup has not tb.e officer who hadeharge of men saying that com·e_ back to its normal. The process of healing to they could do so ?-:-I would certainly/ be surprised. I . these men, unfortunately, is yery lopg and tedious, and have a list of thirteen men . upon whom, during the I feel sure from my observations :that anything more past seven months, I consider drink ha·s had a bad effect. than a medical or, s-ay, a very moderate indulgence in One man was treate-d in the eamp hospital for delirium alcohol, retards fhei:f progress. _ Cases in the treatment tremens. He was a retttrned soldier. I have treated o£ which -I ha-ve been concerned, where there was too cases of drunkenness. Several times I have had to free indulgence, been m ore fre·quent_than I cared treat a mere lad who has been drinking, and I have · for. · Progress has been retarded.. We found some benefit generally- tried to put . him unaer the ·care of the when the hotels were placed o ut \of bounds to patients chaplain. - I do not think_ are many -of those in the Roseneath Hospital. - ..

but I have1 had them. With regard to the -relation- 1878 H f · R

ship of _ venereal disease and alcohol, I have ·had 3 . 7 · _ow. ar ls oseneath H 1ospital from the camp? - : .. bout half-a-mile. · _ _

cases under my care since the 19th October, 1917. Of these, .sixteen were returned soliders, three of whom 1879. By Senator· Lt.-@o lonel- Bolton.- -Do the dates have enlisted in the Pe.-rrnanent- Guard at Hobart. Ot which you ·have given coincide with the that you the sixteen returned soldiers, three we·re affected before have been in -camp ?--No. I was there from June last. they reached Australia. Since the Tasmanian Venereal I have- taken more notice of the venereal wDrk since the . Act has come into force, ·we coi:ne into close Health Act came .in, that is,-in regard to the elfects of

touch with these men.-. We bave to report each case to ·the disease. ' · , · -

the Principal- :Medic'a1 Officer, without- mentioning . -1880. You make· a final recruits?­

names. Each "man is gi_ ven a certain number, and we Yes. If a man rejected. at the camp, two doctors must have to ·:find out as mu·ch as we can about the circum- reject him, but one can pass him in. -

stances of his contracting the disease. They · are very 1881. All the recruits have been examined -

friendly fellows, and they tell me quite a gQod deal when by medical men ?-The majority of them. Some men they are _being treitted ;- They are anxious to be cured. _ ceme in who have not been previously examined. A Of the 37 cases of venereal disease under my care man can go direct::into the ca!np without being examined since the !9th Oqtober, _.1917, ele;ren were definitely ?e by us, but greater number have ?een

under the mfluence of drmk when mfected-, three were previously passed. ; . ' ' '4

drinking _at the time, two others were lodging at an - - · 1882. What are the arrangements for examining re­ hotel, and there is suspicion in regard to their state; cruits at distances, from the camp are generally

th-ree others were known to be heavy d.rinkers. - So I by an offieer On the Army Medic11l Corps Re-have grave reasons to connect alcohol with the time serve. · · -

of i!lfection in _ 50 pe_ r cent of tlie cases. As reg'ards 1883. Under an engagement by the Government .or the drinking h.abits of these 37 men, twelve were heavy on payment of a ·certain f ee ?-I understand that there , drinkers, eleven ... were moderate, and sev·en claimed to i.s a fe b. I do not know- how much it is, but it is not be teetotallell's, although one of the seven was lJnder ·very large. · -

the influence of drink last night. , I consider that alcohol 1884. What fs the of the fact that you

is a feature in the previous history of these men. I h·ave :lind it necessary to reject m-en who .have been previously detailed of these C 'a·ses, and can read s0me passed ?-The War Precautions Act enables us to s·ay

of ·the remarks. A was in.toxicated when infected; B to a man, "You must make no untrue statement about was on the drink f0tr some tlme when infected; 0 was your past health. You must hide nothing from us in re­ continually drinking, and often absent without leavf. gard to it." There was a man 'who was p-assed into camp Base Hospital;, . D was a very heavy before we got this little provision to help us. One day

,drih'ker, -and ·is how a deserter; F -and G were lodging an officer sE\nt him along to us, saying that he seemed to a W Coast hotel when H was drunk be affected with .a stl''ained humerus. We examined him

when infected, was yery drunk when he reported from and found that he was suffering from a minor form furlough at the Launceston BaHe Hospital, and was of' epilepsy, That could nqt i>e detected unless we had

, .

-

his p-revious 'history from the .. man himself. When we questioned him, we found that he these attacks

before. No -blame could be atta:ched to a_ ny one for

passh1g that man if he did not choose iO volun·teer a statement about his past history. very often men do . not tell country dO'ctors- the true condition of their health. They are not put lindet the -war Precautions

Act. 1885. Does not that play into the hands of the

shirker. Do not men tell you that they suffer frolii cer­ tain disease, and y.ou turn them do·wn. Would not a ·

1894, By Senatot the excessive use of

tea which has been standing for a considerable time On the tea leaves have any injurious effect on the sJamina of Aus·tralians ?---I would not say_ that it was good for .. them, and I know that in certain circumstances over- ·

indulgence in strong te·a, particularly women,

has a deleterious effect, but I should not say that it has any m-arked effect on the stami1Ht of Australians.

· man's ability depend on t_ he obvious f.acts that 1e is generally :fitted , for service §peaking, · it

woi1l-d, but' in a ·certain number o:f' cases it would not. When a man's knee is exa·mined it is very hard to say that it is ' weak, or that one of the cartileges is not in order. · If we had a definite true state·ment that .

that man had got a knock on the knee, and .. he came to us aftet he had been in ·camp with a swelling in the

1895. ls it not a fact that the way in whi,ch tea is usually made, by being allowed to for long periods on the leaves, succeeds in extracting £rom the leavea a-n injurious substance known as tannin, which · has a

bad e:ffec,t the digestive system of bo,th men and .. women ·

_,. knee we would understand the connexion.

188 6. If· the medical officers are taking a man's his­ tory .. from, his word of mouth, are they not likely to b·e To a certain extent they are, but- not to

any marked degree. We are in the lrahit of verifying what these men say. If a man tells ll.s that he has had a certain illness, '!e ask him, when, .and we cute with the rriedi·cal office:r ,who treated him, and find out if it i .a fact . the case o£ a

soldier who looked' fair;ly fit until I 1had a good look at him, and then I recognised 'him as a man whom I b.ad seerr drunk on a tr.am. The contlU:ct'or ·on the tram told me he had been dr1nking for :a month. "lie spluttered all

over mf} when he wa-s talking to me. I saw on his papers that at the time he was in a sanatorium as a returned soldier. 1887. \V'e1 _ have been told that out of ·6,'0b'O men,·who

enli,ste,d here withih a te'rbiill pe_riod, 1,19-1 w.er-e rejected being accepted th.,e camp, and that 700. of

them were rejected for medical reasons; is that not large proportion?--:-yes; but most ·of those men were pas·sed prior to my time. In another case a man was ..., 44 yea-rs of age, seemed 't_ o be very fit, so far as we

could make otl.t. Just a week before the reinforcements went away with which he was going to the Front he ca:n'le up with a very bad lumbago and sciatiea. We con"' ·sidB

Front from what-we had from the men who had

gone to, England and ha:a. ultim.ately been turned down there, so we ·turned him down: 1888. Would you say that the military efficiency of the Army is' by ip.dulgence 1n

alc0hol ?-------:Not to any serious extent. 188-9. Would you say that the efficiency of the C-om­

monwealth is affected by indulgence in alcohol in regard -to its ability to defei'ld itselff-I should say so. .. 1890.' Do you .think that under a system of ptohibi­

tion during the period ·of the war the could make a greater in the prosecution of the

war?-When all the issues ·are considered, I think it would. I arr'1 not a de.:finite expounder of prohibition.

' 1896. Have you kno-wn of any cases where men been prevented from going to the Fl"ont because of the excessive use of tea made ih that ,

189J. _Is the smoking ·of indulg·e.d in by_

youthful Australians injurious to their physical de­ velopment?-Yes; we have turned boys dowil because we considered th,at the rapid beating of ,their hearts was due to _ the excessive use ·of- cigarettes. The have

told us the number of cigarettes they smoke. We con­ sidered it 1898. llow many Would a boy -of that age get

have had boys there who_ have told us that

they: smo}red •40 cigarettes a day. - ·

1899. Is it a fact that there. is a certain amount o£ rum used .. in the _nianufacture of cigarettes and -I have been told so. -. 1900. You know that a ml!n who acquires the hablt of d.rinking beer or finds it yery . difficult to the temptation have more; is that due to the alcol10l in the or beer think sg. . -.... 1 · 1901. If it is true in regard to beer and .spirits, would it not also be tr'ue in :regard to cigarettes and tobacco; do not e'Ven gtowh-up men find it' just as difficult to knock off strroking once they have acquired the taste for it ?=-Yes. 1902. In view of the fact that some men have been prevented from doing _their share in this war owing to the ex0e-ssive lise of cigarettesJ would you be in favou't , of taking steps to regt'llate the supply of cigarettes to boJs, or to ))tbhibit them 1 do not t'hink .any harm would be done if' those boys who go •into t a:mp suffering from over-indulgence in 'cigar·ettes could. prevented from smoking theni. I 1.v<0uld hot say there are a .great number, but_ there are boys :Wh() go into camp whose hearts 'are · from over-indulgence in cigarettes. We have turned them dow-n. -1903. Y·ou ·would not regard moderate inaulgence in smoking as in.iurious ?-=-'-:tio. 1904. Would you c0nsidef a mpderate. indulgence in beer or spirits as injurious to a mail's :fitness t·al-ly .speaking it is not. r 1905. Then, so far as your ·Opinion goes, ;you would only be in favour of regulating the supply of those who are incapable of gauging their own requirements satiS· factorily ?-Yes, altho-ugh I eertainly would_.. not be in favour of placing restrictions on soldiers tha:t could _·not be placed on others. I should not like to treat a soldier as one apart from _ anybody else. 1891. F-or a specific purpose it would be effective?­ yes. I do not know whether it would he absolutely necessary. I should think otheT_ things might be tried ' first, othet measures t o deal with the drink traffic. 1906. Do you know that men ih -affluent ·circumstances frequently provide their homes and cellars with beers, spirits, and wines?-Yes. 1907. you object to the soldiers keeping what they (!an afford to keep in their c-amps for their own . use, and for the use of their frie.nds would object -to that. 1892. Do you think that there is a demand on this country to :make _a supreme eff·ort in the prosecution of -the war?-Yes.- , 1 1893. 'In regard to your •evidence concerning returne

--1909. You

- to make a dennite upo_ n the matter. ing from -wounds?---:-I w·ould not a statement in

·1910. 1-Iow long has that regulation beerr in force _ .regard _to a moderate drinker, but the heavf -drinker ,. -: _ whi'C5h enables au offi ce r to put a 111 4 11 upon his oath, would certainlj go under before the· other man. -and extract froin h im his past history under a penalty? 1928. You have had some exp e.rience iu operation s? -I think that we have been able to -use it for the past - Yes; · I know that the man who- is dr inking a f a_ -i:r four or :five months. amount is a great trouble tc• ge1 under an anmsthetic. 1911. Are country ·doc tors obliged to make use of H e is always a little noisiery than the man who is a t otal that regulation ?-I cannot say definitely. ' abstainer lor a shght drinker: :- . _ 1912. What 1vas the agtunl advan-t f!,ge that followed 19 30. What _i s the experien ce in -regard to the r e- placing of h otels out of bounds, so f ar as the _Rose- covery after operation& ?-There is no doubt ...._tha t e.xces-neath H ospital was concerned; prior to that, had the sive drinking does :re-tard reeovery. · patients in the hospital been ·coming home; from 193 1. By Sc,natoT Qolo nel Rowell.-- Are you a hotels in a state of i n toxication?-Yes ; there _ were cases ab stainer _where the men h ad come ir1 affected by alcohol. - _1932. You said that a certain _p ercentage of men ( _ 1913. Which th ey secured at h-otels which have since discharged by ' the M:edica-1 Boards bec·ause- -of their be en pl.1t out of bounds ?-Yes. exce.ssive drinking had too much alcohol in thejr :ws- 1914. And, in consequence of hotels being put out of te1ns; was that becaus e of drinking habits contracted _bounds, yot1 have had less trouble and a smaJler per- enlisting, or before ?-Before, E ven: tho se five # eentage of drunkenness ?-Yes.- _ · - men• l spoke of as being boa1'ded out after being ac-- 1915. You .... have the opinion ·that if men cepted were men in which .the alco·hol h?d heen t aken · have had what ) s know.n as a night out at Hobart, they before they joined. . are less capable of performing their duties on the Jol- 1933 . . 1"hey were not discharged be·cau::se of _ their ex-lowing day than they would Have been. if they- had eessive drinking after enlistment?-No. · _r_ emained' in camp; have any officers complaints _ 1.934. That-would not _ be. your prerogative; it would to you that such is the case, or how, do you come to that be_ the prerogative of, Oamp Command'ant to deal · . =- opinion have known men wlio have had a night' irJ. _ with those who we- :re '"drinking excess_ively after enlist­tovvn, and gone o.ut a. bit hilarious on the train. · :T menf?-That is so. , knew that had had a fair amount of drink, but --1935. V.enerea:I ·patient:t are treated .'mo-re h_ umanely they did_ n ot appear before me i.q. the morning on sick now thaQ they were in the 13arly stages of the w.ar; -d - the•_ r :a;=e not -treate_ d so muc_ h· as crimina-ls ?-Tha•; is para e. _ .; . 1 , 1916 .. Apparently, they Virere able to_ get furough their so. wo-rk on the following day?-App_arently they were, - -You, tliat three had though I do not see that they could do it properly. - _venereal dis_ ease before th,ey- arrived in Australia; how 1917. You· h,ave had _no actual knowledge -of the do you accoun-t it in Scotlaml, failure of any mart to efficiently perform · his work I fancy the other two contracted theirs in London. during your term of offi ce ?-I have had isolated 'il.'hey not_ quitec right when ... they:_ anivbd. .. A liOy, ,eighteen years of. age, came ... to me . one Mo-nday 1937. They were venereal before they left England ? on sick parade, and said, ":,I: admit tha'"t I ca-n.- -I t hey were. Or course, it is possible I llY work to-day. _ r. was drin"%ing yesterday."::- for a man: to" be with a-woman the night hefoT e leaving 1918. Is that the ·gnly case that come under your and for the sy;philis n ot t,o show until h•J has been a few · e s 1 h 1 · d weeks on -the voyage. notwe .-· eve! a ot er cases 1ave ,l'm er my . but not a great number. vVilfrid.- Glblin--, .. G. :p., _1919. Wo11:ld you have six-of-those cas_es during 1\f-e.Clwal Officer for and''0xammed. time tE at you have b.een in Hobart ?-::.-I think so. 1938. By. the OhaiTman.-Are you ass ociated with the 1920. ,;1Jy Sena.tor Guy.-How lo1ig ago is it since the Army?::::-Yes;- I )lave with it .for -over hotels near the Roseneath Hospital were put out of twenty, years. . bounds ?--Only within the last two months. I ani not -. --1939. Have yeu been to J he 1.-!"'ront ?-Yes; I was- at 'sure of it. The matron, the warra.:rJt officm;, __ and I talked the Front for t"\VO and a half years. I - wen.t away in together and expressed pleasure at the difference in the ·charge- of a casualty clearing and served in_ state of things siJ;J.ce that order was issued. The' order various capacities: At the last I was _Deputy Director included two hotels nearer to the city, and Qnebeyond of :Medical Se.rvices Imperial Foree the hospital. · in En-gland. _ · __ , 1921. Have you a ny knowledge of a case o£ delirium 1940. Have -you lived in Tasmapin long?-_I ·was tTeniens at the Hoseneath Hospital ?-Yes, that was four born here, and lived here untik the outhreak of war. months a:go. 1941. VVhen did yqu leave to go: to the Front ?-On 1H22. Does alcohol affect 'the vision ?-It affects tlie the 30th N ovember, _1914. vision of a very heavy drinker.- 1942. 1-Iad you any _ in camp before you 1923. He would not be -able to detect signals §O went ?-I was in c·[!:mp for -two_ months or so during readily ?-No. Of COUTse, it would. only be a very heavy the training of my unit. / drinker. 1943. Could you give a detailed statement to . the 1924. We have heard from a high medical authority Committee .as to your opj:nion on the effect of -drink on that _even a small the prompt judgment the efficiency, morale, and .health,of thesoidiers?-Iheld _ of m en ?--I would not m ake any definite statement in- the position c ;>f Principal }\1:ed1cal .O:fficer)n _ Tasman ia _ _ regard _ to that. befor&-'-th-8 war, and resumed it on the 1st M;ay last on 1925. You h ave not had any know)edge as to its e:ffe.ct My knowledge of the .,..e:ffe-ct of drink on men· on shooting?-No. undergoing training has been acquired, firstly, from my 1926. Does it hasten fatigue ?____,I think so. observations during the period -af -tl'laining, at the early 1927. What is its effect on disease?_:_The most glar- stage of the war, and sin.ce my from J'epo-rts of' ing effect is in cases or prreumonia . . When I was at the the medical officers who have been working under me, general hospital it came to be · a -general saying that it and not .so-much from my· own direct observation. Dur­was a very serious thing indeed with a heavy drinker ' -ing the pe!iod tha-t _I was m c-amp the men were a •

553

pickedjot, and there was no drinking. -.As 27.5 cases rejee,ted foJ.' all causes o.ut of 1916 men .,_

·o-fficer commanding .a unit I liad no drunkenness in my in camp. The percentage of c"ases rejected because of unit. I have no doubt many men took ·alcohol, but they alcoholism was, therefore; l per cent. -of all men in camp. did not it to excess. Since my_ return, th medical or 6.9 . per cent. _of rejected cases during that period; m car;np, a.re responsible . to- me as their This percentage does not apply' to cases examined prior

prmCipal mall J'eport that ,--to entering camp} statistics for which are not available.

IS a httle dnnkmg g01ng On In camp, BUt that It IS I,t would- have been to have instruCtfld the

chiefly _to men ,-yvho acquireu the habit p·rior to- medical officers to have taken that .consideration in view enlisting. I.£ it that the health of these in furnishing their ·reports, but · I take it that

· men has been affected by they are few would put d·own a man as having been rejected on

boarded out, . and the decisiOn of the medical officers is account of alc_ oholism. H is p.1ore likely that it would confirmed by me. That applies to a small proportion of be r-eported that a man was reiected ·on account of the the only. So far as the main b?dy of the ·men in which alcoholism had produced on him. The

camp Is_ the r _eport to ,;ne IS favorab.le. mediC al __ officer would rather report on the effect than on

medical offi·cers m camp report, No marked mfluence the can se . T1herefore, I have rio statistics to show the of alcohol _

noticed." In brief, th_ at is the extent o_f my knowledge th e first ex amination of persons offering their services of the .effect of alcoho on tr_9 op s in training. to the country.- . ·

1944. You wen t__ to :En-glai; d ?-I went first to Egyp1. - 1949. It is natnral to suppose that a cer_ tain We ho spital there for a very short period. of men were turned down for that reason?--:

We left Egypt with the first troops in March, P oss1bly , >but, the doe·s not appea.r on our papers.

1915, for Lemnos. It \Vas pr oposed to 1and about 4,00.0 .W e could not asce.rtam the, percentage. Australian troops at ; that time, but we were held up. 19 50. Are you prepared to sa:y_ that a per.:

194(;. What is your experience in regard to returned centage ha:ve been turned dow.n . In the first mstance soldiers ?-J t is a __ ma tter of a small proportion of men because of the effects . of alcohohsm who are very difficult to deal with on account of their . 19 51. But would you care to say what the percentage _ tendency to take alcohol. Far .and away the bulk of the h as tbeen would only be a .guess on my pa·rt. J men ·are well-behaved and steady. It is a small cannot commit n;yself to any estimate of. that sort.

that has a tendency to indulge in drink, which it is 1952: The because It has not been

almost -imposs·ible to check by and admonitim1 . able to get. the services-?£ cm·tam men through the effects In spite of hospital discipline, they ·periodically exceed of alcohohsm IS _ so. . - _ _ . . _

and misbehave themselves. Those remarks.apply to the So that drmk does affect us m the matter of two military hospitals in Tasmania, at ami . gett u_:g· onr es. . . . ,-- • - .. _ ,

Launceston, and als_ o _-very markedly, I am afraid, to · 19o_4. Ha.s the. f!aternity any defimt10n o.f the inmates of the consumptive .sanatorium. From thP. excessive rs > do J?-Ot thn1;k so.

parficul:ir nature of their complaint, I think the men 1955. Ev.ery man has his .own ?-Yes.

in that sanatorj.um have a greater tendency to intern- It lS JO man that a

perance: We have certainly had a difficulty a pro- dnnks w:hat 'l1S :ordt-narily :ermed excesf!IV:ely, · / lt _ portion of those men. They do riot confonn to t.lae retards his rer.cwery they are absent without leave, and they take drink. · If . 1957. .lead you to say that

that proportion c-ould be segregated; we would a man 18 a to!al abstainer Will have a bet-tep chance have no difficulty with·..th.e place. These men are often of recovery .than one wh,o IS a "!lloderate drmker?­ discharged_:men wp.o are entitled t.o hospital treatment · I do n0t thmk so: I thmk a moderate

during the period oL the war ±or any ailment they amount of alcohol.Is. J?reJUdiCial to a mans rec.overy. acquired on service, and not a- sufficiently strict 1958. Sup:pose It .Is a of pneumonia

-control over them. TJ:tey ·can discharge,.. themselves from - r:ema!k to as well. An of

the when they wish, and · we cannot punish IS a very §erious matter for a .heayy drmker,

them if they do SO. lt is very hard to make. them see but It IS not v:rorse for the moderate drinker than for where tlieir best . in,terests lie. - the total-abstamer.

1946. You said that the m·err -in camp previously 1959. By Senatolf Grant.-Does the 16 per cent. that - during your time there were, ana. those in camp now are, - you have mentioned of re-jections on ·account of alco­ in the o:verwhelming majority of cases extremely , holism after entering ca:rnp apply only to ·a ·limited moderate men ?-That is so. - period ?-Yes. From other causes 84 per cent. were

1947. I take it that a number of men: who have been - rejected o.n a second examin5ttion, a-nd 16 per cent.' for patriotic anel loyal enough to offer their servicAs, and r have shown already th-at the percentage

w.ere anxious to go to the Front, have been turned down of cases rejected from alcoholism during ten months _, by the medical .officers because of alcoholism ?-Because -from April last year was 1 per cent. of all men in camp, their physical condition had been lowered by the abusn or 6.9 per cent. of rejected cases during that period. of alcohoL. _ . _ 1960. :A.mong the percfmtage that you mentioned

Have any idea w)hat would be the per- would the same individual be repeatedly under notice?

centage ?-For the last few mo-nths the r ejections for .-It· has occurred that a man who is apparently perfectly aleoholism amounted to 16 per cent. of those reiected physically fi t applies a:t various recruiting depots, and on of the men going int o ·camp. The first is p assed, and it may be only on reporting at camp

' medical examination rejects men with obvious defects. that they know he is suffering from some physical Mfm who are passed by medical officers in various parts def.ect-such as alcohol - o·r epileptie fits-which he of the country are sent into camp, and during the period has concealed from the examining doctor. Of course, of their training they are kept under observation by thA that marr is rejected on arriving in camp. Directly

camp medical -- . A · certain percentage of he comes into camp he is recognised.

men are further rejey.ted for unsuitability fqr one reason 1961. He would be included in that 16 per /cent.?-or another. Of those men who were primarily passed Yes . · · _

and secondly rejer,ted jn camp, 16 per ce nt. the · 1962. Can men who discharge themselves .from the numbAr rejected on ·account of alcoholism. The nnmher - . R oseneath Hosp ital on their own volition enter hos­ of case.s of men rejected on account -of alcoholism after pi t al again ?-Only men who have . been discharged entering camp, for the period of ten months beginning from the service are Emtitlod tg discharge themselves

the 1st April, 1917, was nineteen. During that period from ho spital; 'otherwise they are considered as beirig _ F.l459.-7

absent without leave. The regulations provide that if a man who has been dischargeCL from the service dis­ charges himself from a hospital, he is_entitled to treat­ ment again, but if he is consistently defying all medical discipline the medical officer can refuse to take him in again.

1963. Oan you give us the number of men who were suffering from the effects of alcoholism, and voluntarily discharged themselves from the hospital, and have since 1

been re-admitted ?-That applies chiefly to the con­ sumptive sanatorium. There have ·'been s-everal cases there where men absented themselves and-have been per­ suaded to go back again for further -treatment. We have .done our best to get them to play the game and stay m.

1964. Would they be regarded as new cases or a.B- old cases?-They would be regarded as old cases. · ·

to have a drink all his life?-It mil,y _be a little hard, but it is beneficial that there should be some restraint on the :first tendency to drink 'on his_ return. _ 1 1981. Do you think that the difficulty would be over­ come if the military authorities were to take over an hotel anCt establish a soldiers· club in_ it-at port of

call, and if soldiers only could be supplied with light wines "and light beer and no spirits in that hotel, the hotelkeepers otherwise being pr.Qhibited from selling liquor to them ?-It would be a very excellent idea. The .difficulty is n;ot - only _that the supply the

soldiers with liquor, it alsu lies in the mistaken kindness of friends giving drink to the men on their bom.e

people that the only way of welcoming a man

is to _ _supply him with drink. I think your proposition would overcome the difficulty to a great extent. -- 1982. Would an/ anti-"-shouting" law prevep.t a deal -of th,e occas.ioned by civilians supplying

, returned . .:lOldiers with drink ?-It hould do so.

19 65. If a man enlists ,.and disappears, and -ihen enlists a second time, it is considered a fresh enlistment?­ That is so. 1966. If a man re-enters second time, do 1983: By _Senator Guy.:...__.Have you a sanatorium in

you regard that as another admission to the hospital?:::- connex1on W1th the1 oamp There are certain huts I' presume it would be so regarded. built .... by ·the Commonwealth at the State sanatorium,

1967. So that a man suffering fr-om the effects of and returned soldiers are treated in · The actual

might really appear se; eral times, and thereby nursing and management. are in the hands of the sana­

Increase the percentage of alcohol cases ?-I d:o not torium authorities:, who ·ar& paid so much per head for that that would occur a $mall 'commu:Qity of the men. There is a medical officer in charge _

this sort. The numbers we are dealing with are not so of but the Hobart aut'horities carry out the

large as to render that likely. . , . organizatiOn.- - _

1968. You do not think that the number of -cases of 1984. You made the remark that ·these men w&re that sort would be appreciable ?--No: suffering from a complaint that seemed 'to lead them to

_ 1969. Is it a fact ·that a man who habitually drinks a desire to indulge in drink ?-If a man feels that he to excess fails to secure sufficient food and is thereby is not getting on very well with his ailment, and that run down and reAdered physically unfit?.::__ Yes a man he ·has. ·only si?' months in wh · ch to live, he is apt to who is taking drink to probably will able get as JOlly a as he can.- I think that is the feeling

to- eat his breakfast in the morning. · that many have. They get depressed, and -it

1970. Have you had any cases of men being ,rejected makes mclmed to indulge in alcohol. It is m.ore from ;mal-nutrition c.on:seqll(ent upon . :the a questwn of the·mental attitude of the patient.

excessive 1!-se of alc?hol?-I have not come into personal .1985., BY_ tfolonel went away

contact with anything of that· sort. . - ... , With the or1gm.al went away in a ship which

1971. Are you in favour of wet canteens in camp?- took :five hospitals, a Jew weeks a_fter t:P,e first_ convoy Yes. - wen.,t. ..

1972. Are you in favour . of the abolition of' "shout- . 1986. There a great deal of pneumonia prevalent ing "?-Yes. · _ . _ . In Egypt.?-I did not come across it personally, but I

1973. Are you in favour of a reduction in the heard of It. . . : - i \

strength of oeer, wines, and ?-I do not know 1987.-!Je you thmk that a man wlio drink in

!hat that would affect the positiOn very much, because _ moderati?n would. have less of _recovery from · 1f the st;ength of ltquor is reduced the men will pro- than the who IS a total abstai11.er ?­

h§lbly drmk more. . _ • His wou1d be JUSt -as goqd as that of the total

1974. Your ·opinion on that point is not very :fixed?- If a has taken enough· alcohol to act

_ No. detnmentally ,on hi§. heart his chance on an attack of

1975. By Senator Bnzacott.-You had some experi- pneumoni.a, or other .serious illness, is lowered, but if ence of wet canteens in camps in Egypt ?-No. :My qual}.tlty ta'kes IS enough to produce a poison­ experience· in Egypt was chiefly in the Oana:I district ous effect on his heart, his _chance would be just as good where we opened a ,hospita1 preparatory to the Turks; as that of man who is a total a?stainer.. _ atta.ck on the 9anal. I -was nQt in camp with the Aus- " 1988 ... you ?ave any of the anti-

trahan 1n Egypt long enough to give my experi- !aw m 1-Yes.

ence on the working of the wet canteens there. 1989. 'YV It very eas1ly ?-It could pe evaded;

1976. Do you think that a wet canteen will have the but I thmk It prevented a certain amount of drinking. of preventing men going away frorri camp to get . : 1990. It had a good eff·ect 1-So far as I could see, it

drink?-Yes. _ - 1 did. , ·

1977. A man accustomed to drink· for a number of Are venereal diseases more to the

years would naturally feer'inclined to have drink and Forces than drinking among the men ?-I have he could get it in camp would not leave camp to get . n?t the ; comparative number of men rendered ineffi-

1 t?-Yes. The drink· supplied would be under military' from the t:vo ·causes, so I would :not like say, __ control. · . bu.t I should thmk that there were a larger

1978. Qn your return from the Old Country, were bemg .rendered inefficient in Great Britain from -vene-the hotels closed at the · different ports of call?-:-They real disease than from alcohol. , · · were in South Africa., but not in Fremantle. • 1992. the general run of soldiers both on the

· 1979 .. Do you consider it neeessary ·that hotels should Continent and in England, did you see many cases of be closed t_ro?ps passing through the various men drinking ?-No. / ·

ports?-I thmk It IS adVIsable. 199'3. By Senator L{-Colonel Bolton.---:-Who was re-

1980. When a man is commg hack to Australia after sponsible medical officer in the Australian Forces .in :fighting for his countrj, is ·it not rather hard that he Egypt ?-Colonel Howse and Colonel -Ryan were there. should be refused tt drink he has be_ e:q. The latter had been A.D.M.S. to the 1st but

', 99 -

f '

the former took over the work. Colonel was . 2010. You have heard that emergency arrangement$

· in,command /at the hospital at Gb.ezireh. had to he made for many thousands of men in places

1994. Was not General Williams in command ·of amusement, and so on ?-Yes: was- in England at that- time. He · in Egypt 2011. Was this due to the indulgence in alcohol by · .,

during February, 1915, and he was there for some time, . responsible officers ?-No. but he had very little to do with t he divisional troops. 2012. that anything to do with it Aus- , -

1995. Were the Austral1an med'lcal services adversely tralia made a very £rre attempt to meet the medical affected by the use of alcohol ?-Nothing of that - question by sending hospitals. A clearing hospital, two came under my observation. ... · stationary, and two general hospitals wefe the !ull and

1996. Were you in E gypt when the first wounded proper equipment for J;he troops we W6lre sendmg-, and came in from the Dard-anelles ?-No. I was at the should_have been ample for requirements, but no doubt - the number of wo unded we had to deal with was so Dardanelles at 'the time. I landed at Anzac with my . . . · t' . t h b Unit whicli was engaged in -the work of evacuating excess1ve th :;_t any hospital ?rgamza I_on mus ave e.en

th d _:r-.. d tt' th f' · .th b h i severely strained, and must have reqmred to extemporize e woun eu an pu Ing em rom e eac · on ;o : · ' Th · b f - ·1 · th b t · -- 1n order to meet the case. · e num er o. casua tiel:! 8 oa s. · we had to df)a l with iiJ. the first few days on GaUipoli 1997. What general arrangements were made -for the was very large. There were 5,000 wounded men evacu- . ' accommodation a·nd transport of wounded ?-I knew a:ted in the first :five days. That number would -practically nothing about t.hem. a, strain on any hospital ac commodation. The accom-1998. Who was respensible fo1· those ai;range-- modation that would be necessary to meet such an emer­ments ?-The Imperial Naval authorities, and Surgeon- gency- would be a big matter,. and_ would a big General Birrell, D.D.lvLS.,-of the 'British Expeditionary strain on the medical professwn m Austraha, because_ Forces in the lVfediterranean. of the n-umber who would have had to go away at that 1999. Was the accommodation provided for receiv- early date .. I do not think Australia couJd have done ing the wounded adequate during· the first week ?""-N 0 ; it . It was a matter that had to be gradually developed. 2013. The demand for. the medical services on shore it had to be improvised. ' was so great that -even' the medical offir-m:s attached to 2000-1. Apparently the number of was quite_ the Units at the Front were commandeered on the unexpected ?-Evidently it was to the people who made beach ?-No. The medical officers were each working the medical anangements. . in their own battalion. 2002. As a matter of fact, many transports with ac- 2014. From the beginning?-Yes. They carried out comm_ odation for forty ·or fifty cases had to acc0mmo- their regimental work in the lines, and sent the wounded.. date from 700 to 800 men ?-I do not 'know the ex_act back to the beach. ' numbers, but transports employed for the carrying ·of 2015. Would you be surprised to learn that troops had to be used for the of invali,ds, and medical officei;s attached to Units were commandeered a small medical staff hacl to be put on board them for work on the beach, and that the Units were with­a small stor e of medical supplies fo r the journey back out medical ·attention for tl:!:_ree or four days ?-I heard to Egypt, which occupied -about two .or three days. , of that but · there may have been o.ther reasons. For _ 200,3. Would you be surprised _to: learn that there in the first few daY.s. the Units were were 850 men on the Clan by the 27th scattered. It was not as If each command was ,to-- Apa:-il ?-'-I do not know what numbe[" it was. . ... · .., gether. P ,arts of Units were in. different places, and, 2004. That was one of several transports whwh was in some cases it was very hard for a medical officer loaded u p with es . ,· ·, . . . ·to keep in touqh with all of his battalion .. It was only_ 2005. Do you of the cond:JJwns whwh subsequently _1vhen things were more that these wounded expenenced on the transport ?-Only were able to sort things out, and get the vanous Units from what I have heard from the medical officers in in their proper places under their proper commands. charge of them. . ... A.t the first go-off the fighting was so mixed that lots _2006. was no-bedding for they were of men got out of touch with their Units. . lying 011 uon decks) many of them With hfebelts under · 2016. You will not deny that some of the - medical their heads for pillows ?-That is so. officers attached to Units were-commandeered and kept 2007. :11:any patients were neglected because there on the beach ?-I would not say "commandeered." ·w:e,re no medi1 cal men to attend to them ?-That may 2017. They were ordered by superior _be so, hut I am of it. . · . . I am very doubtful about that, because the man in 2008 .. arnved In Alexandria antlseptw, and charge was Colonel Howse, who was A:-.D.M.S. to the lost theu hves on that account; as a matter of fact, Division and he was the last man to g1ve an order of with your general knowledge a medical officer did that sort. He was very _anxious about whether the sup­not .the vyhole _of tp_e medical at ply of medical officers was short, and about landmg give of gross, If not cnmina.l, negh-. places. There. may have been a shortage of rem±?rce­ ?-Those remarks could only apply to the arrange- ments for medical officers who were wounded or kllled. ments for the evacuation ·of the men on the water. That · may have accounted for the shortage, but I very They cannot apply to the medical arrangements for much doubt that any one was commandeered and the attention to the sick and the collection and evacua- ordered to work on the beach. I had charge of the tion of the men -on the beach. Those arrangements unit which · was doing the clearing, and none of the were carried out - well. rr:he wounded wer8 r egimental officers were working with me. got a;vay most expeditwusly and_ There was 2018. By Sen-ator Colonel R ov:ell.-Where did they not the supply of hospital ships. :My r cspon- find the doctors for the tr.oopships ?-They were sup­ ended wounded over pLied hom the of the which the N boats, whiCh were conveyn:-g them. to did not land, especia.lly .the hospital sectwns of those ships, but those boats had very great difficulty In s-::It- ambulances. ably disposing of the men, and a la:rge amount of Im- 2019 B S t L · [ 0 l z B lt y ·n provised accommodation had to be made which, ot · · · _ Y ena or teu .- 0 one . o on.---; ou WI course, -was not what it should have been. not deny that there were SOJ?-e umts at }he 2009. That r emark also applies in regard to the front. for two or three days without medwal · arrival of the men in Egypt; there was not accommo- I that that was the ?ase. . . dation. for ·the .wo-q.nded at the hospitals ?-I cannot 2020. only attenti?n given to men speak of that from personal experience. in those muts was that whiCh could be g1ven 7•

100 ....

men could walk to the beach in the ca-se of men you talk of a secondary hospital from town

who were brought back by the to the at which men can be treated' and recelve technlCal edu­

stations. The stret_ cher-bearers really worked cation it would be a very difficult task to keep the

most marvellously at bringing jn the _Founded. I very men in the place; ThePe were complaints a little - much doubt if many men were delayed very long in while ago that even _Roseneath was too far out ?f town. getting medical attention, because at the most the dis- If you propose to establish a secondary hosp1t.al s.uf­ tance to bring them in to the beach from the furthest ficiently far away from the t9wn to meet the dnnk

_poi_nt was n9t more than li miles, and by 1 a.m. on ques.tion you will find a greaf deal of difficulty in keep­ 26th April we had- cleared the beach of every ing the- men in the institution, especially subsequent

wounded man. · · to their discharge.

2021. I do not expect you to give any evidence that William Cocks, ·Missioner to Seamen, Hobart, will reflect on your profession, but did you notice an · sworn and examined.

_undue tendency among the medical men to indulge alcohol in the circumstances ?-No. Very few of them 203.2. -J3y the Chairman.-How long have you been in had any alcohol to indulge in. I did not see a medical · Hobart-?-for two .. a.nd a half years. Prior to that, I officer drunk or under the influence of liquor on Gal- was living in Sydney. I have been associated with li poli. seamen since the war started.

2022. Would you regard the medical arrangements - _ 2033. Are -you of opinion that drink interferes with made at the landing as satisfactory?-yes, as far a,s the efficiency; o.r morale, -or training of our soldiers ?­ the shore was concerned, but not 80 far as the evacua- My work does nor bring me into contact with solq-iers tion on the water was concerned. · in any numbers, but I am strongly of opinion that drink

2023. Are any arrangements- made for the · medical has affected many of the men whom I know personally. _ of discharged returned soldiers l-iving in I sh_ould say that it does_ interfere to same extent with

country districts ?-No. They have recently been noti- , the efficiency of the Forces. ...._

- fied that expenses will 15e paid by the Repatriation De- - 2034. - I take it you will give some reason for holding partment, which is represented by the State War that opinion ?-My experience is only with individual Council. Certain notifications have been sent to medi- ..ga.ses. Men have come to ·me for help to get them back cal men with regard to such treatment, making neces- - to camp, .11nd_ invariably they have been in a bad way. sary provision for their such cases, as to their Men who have come to :our institution for tea on Sunday

suitability.. fGr treatment, and as to whet:b.er the- cases evening have been -so overcome that they oould not face should be treated in a military hospital. If it-- is likely a cup of- tea. Several times I have askea them how to be a prolonged case; O!lr natural is that it should they got through their drill on the next day, and they be under more direct military control in a military have repl-ied, "God knows; we get through it somehow!" hospital. Tfntil recently therehas been no organization ' The mission is in a very choice l.9cality. The sur­ ,for the treatment of returned soldiers in their homes, roundings of the place are bad. The hotels in: .the

Returned soldiers in towns are entitled to treatment in neighbourhood have a ·bad name. · It is not an uncom-the military hospitals. - - mon thing to see soldiers in a bad way on the Sunday

2024. As a matter of fact, a great nu-mber of re- afternoon. At ·night, we see soldiers in uniform drink­ turned soldiers require supervision or periodi- ing with_ out of the same_ . .

cal attention ?-Undoubtedly. - - . 2035. There individual among soldiers as

2025. Would YoU be in favour of Jestablishing among other sections oLthe community; from your per­ liospitals for such cases ?-If require do you think that the percentage of

hospital treatnient, I think they should be treated- in · men who do that kind of thing has been sufficient to the ordinary military )n the way . _ that interfere with' the general efficiency of . tlie Forces?-

, undischarged treated. · · I should not think so. _I do -hot think that drinking

t : 2026: lnbt.hlsdwa!th tht at ta systte;n of :re-edauca- is worse- among the soldiers than among' any other sec-lOll .m1g e COJU 1ne . Wl rea . 1n a secon _ ary -' tion. -

for a secondary 2036. The soldier is a picked man ?-Yes.

educatwn, e1ther 1n or m the nmghbou:rhood of the . . . _ . . . . .

hospital should be given an opportunity to get it. - I you ' know If lt lS found that a

2027. Many men who· would o.therwi§e be crippled man lS add1cted to alcohol he IS turned down ?-Yes. could probably, . by continual treatment, he restored t_o · 2038 . . Therefore, to _yome the average soldier almost normal conditions?--Yes, they could learn some- is than the general average of men ?-Quite so. thing during tlieir prolonge<:l inactivity. 2039. :Po you know of-any w-ay in which drink has

-2028. You could not' keep these men in the Base Hos- affected the general efficiency-· of soldiers afterwards?­ pi tal?-In Tasmania we dealing with such small - I am only speaking of individual cases with which I numbers that it -would be impossible to have oome in contact. ·- - __

hospitals for that particular purpose. In 2040. How,many individual cases have you come into

Hobart we will have a military hospital at the barracks co·ntact with ?-Some scores of cases. · -and a convalescent home a few miles the ,town. y 01.1;_ said that dri.nk did interfer.e to some extent

These buildings will meet ·all our . hospitai require- with ' the general efficiency of the :F9rces ; why did you ments in this part of the State until the end of the say that ?-Because the men I speak of must of neces-- war. Any technical_ instruction might be given in con- shy be· unfitted for their duties. I , think this because junction with those institutions without establishi:Q.g of the condition in which they come to me. · -,

any others. - 2042. But you \; say that the percentage is so small

2029. Could'-arrangements be ma.P.e with local medi- compared with the body of men, that it will not _ cal men to treat discharged -soldters who need medical ipterfere with the general efficiency?-Quite sa; but I in country districts ?-As I already said; do not see how the men tliat I speak of could do ..... other­

the country medical' men are being ,notified_ that this wise than lessen efficiency. -treatment can be given, and will be paid for by the 2043. You. think that the drink traffic has had so, Commonwealth. . little influence with the general body of the Forces, that

2030. Is-it ,being -done now?-Yes. it has n_ ot in any way interfered with general

2031. Only under special circumstances?- The -That is so. . - '

special circumstances would be that the men would 2044. By Senator Buzacott.---Ate you a total be treate_ d for 3:ilments contracted on service. If stainer?-Yes.

By Senator Colonel l{owell.-Do you think

that .... t4e people of Tasmania are more temperate than the people -of New South Wales?-:-! think it is· six to - one to half-a-dozen of he other. Human nature is the same .

2046. Is there any excessive_ dr!nking among the , crews ·of the tr::tnspods that call -here ?-I do not

think so. • '· '

55·7

Has drink interfered with some of those with

whom you have had t<> is impossible to say

that it has not. Drink has a very .bad effect on the

men. Returned men get large cheques when they draw their-deferred pay at the Barracks, .and there are people \vho are on the look out for them, hotel touts, and all sorts of men who want to he treated. They shepherd

th e returned. soldiers, and some of them never leave

• _ 2'04:7. By !S_e1iator Lieut.-Colonel Bolton.--You say thktn until cheques are all gone. that drink ;has not affected the general ?-The 2064. You linow that for a fact ?-.A!bsolutely.

number ..of cases that I have met is so small. , Young fellows who have received their cheques have 2048 .. Bu.t, no_· matter how sm'an it it, it part been brought to tP,e hostel by a couple of companions,_ of the whole?-Yes. · who have taken 'them out of an hotel and brought them

/ 2049; Taking the whole of the-troops from Australia: to me il).. such a of in_toxication that they could / and multiplying the cases you have met with, and those hardly walk -They have sa1d to me, "I know that he which you exist but which you have 'not met has money on him, because we have searched him."

-with, would you regard drink as having an effect to . I have said, "How much you got," and· he has

any extent on the whole -of the Australian· Army?-:It said, '"Look!" ··. I have taKen up to £20 from some must have an effect to some extent, but not to any serious y.oung fellows, and locked the money up in the safe, extent. · - and put them to bed. Next morning we have called .

2050. Do you consider that the drinking- habits of them early to/ catch the train, and- sent them away the people of Australia render the nation less efficient - awfully grateful that they have been taken away from than they would be if they · were teetotal ?_:_I think_ so. the hot-els and .sent home with their money in their - 2051. As a matter of fact, would you say that the / pockets,. That thing occurs dozens of times. I was at _

-people of the Commonwealth would be· justified in a conference the ·other day, called by the Commandant . ..:. · establishing prohibition durmg the period of the war, in Things were i;n too rosy a light. I went ho.me order to get the best results t-Yes. ' ·from the meeting to -:find a man at the hostel suffermg

- 2052. /-By S enator Gr:_ant.-D.o you actually-know that from deli1·1:um tremens. He had to be t aken from the any of the men whom you -may have seen drinking ·hostel to the cells. I have been trying for weeks to WQme n f_ailed to carry out their drill on the following keep him fr.om the public· houses. He was anxious to morning in an efficient manner ?-I do not know. - - be pulled up. He came back to me two after

2053. Do you come .to the conclusion that the mere _ with his brain cleared, and cried. _- He said that he waJl fact that they were epjoying themselves by drinking out - never going to _fall again. Of course he did. He of -the same bottle.. with women would ·prevent their says that he is going to re-enlist, .but he is not :fit t o go carrying out .thet r . work- Oil following morning?- to the Front. I have had, I cannot tell you how many,

I hardly could conceive that some of the. men who were cases of men who -did not want to' drink, and whom I in . the condition in which I have seen them, could pulled up and employment for. man, who

· through- their work on tlie following morn"' suffers from -sh!=)ll shock and spea:K abo_ ve a

mg. . I have not to the camp- to see. " r ·ha-ve just whi;Sper, comes -back _to -!liB and again. He is .a

. given my opinion. . · . _ ·. _ ·sailor, but he cannot go_ on a big boat because he ha:s _rio

2054 . . Ar-e you opposed to the " shouting " system?- voice,. . He g@ts employment on the _ river barges, and _Yes; 1s the of 1;1 great deal of the troub,le . though· he does ;not want to he_ gets- drunk. On

that ex1sts. - · _the Saturday n1ght after the conference called by. the

- 2055. Would you be in favour of the enactment 0 { there were a dozen men at the- hostel,

a law that would haye for. its "'bject the prevention o-f all drunk. It was after pay· they vy-ere all

that custom · - --- ash·amed of ,

- To what conference are yQu referringi-!he

, Shoo bridge, sworn and examined. - - Retu-rned Soldiers' Association -of Victoria sent a cir­

-205fJ. By th.e _Chairman.-Are you in a position to cular lefter to the Commandants in each State, asking _ give us some evidence with regard to the mo'ral them to onsider: the drink question as it re­

efficiency -of our soldiers?-! think so, because alin:ost turned soldiers; also, the best means of repatriation. all the returned 'SOldiers who - come back to Tasmania The of the police, returned soldiers, and so on, pass through my hands 'at our hostel. · gave ·their views at that conference, and I say things-

' were pain e

2057. Why should they pass through your hands?- not to condemn the soldiers. Because -r am · the matron of the Red OrJss Hostel, in 2066. N 0 cone_ wis.hes to condemn the soldiers who Hobart, which has been established by . the Red Cross hiaYe so m'uch for us, but if we can save them from · for the accommodation of returned soldiers. an unnecessarJ: evil, that is our object ?-The soldiers

2058. Ha; if anYthing to. do the soldi; rs before say that''they do not want to be singled out from civi­ - they- go to the _ war?-:-If they are sick in camp, they lianf? by,.being deprived of drink. Why should they be come to us when they come into town on leave. singled out after they have enlisted and fought _for 2059. Do yoii provide sleeping _accommodation and their countrv? ...--

!lleals at hostel?-Yes. We-have about s1xty beds, 2067. ·A-t your hostel, you do not refuse .ac·com'mod·a--- and average about , 1,200 heds a month. We issue tion to any one who is the worse . for liquor I

about 4,000 meals a month. look upon the hostel as· a shelter or a home.. I have

2060. The evi den:ce you ca1i give will deal more with never refused a man, nor have I had a man misbehave

returned sol

2061. Some have their own relatives to whom they - 2068. Would their noise interfere with the sleep or go?-Yes; but they use the hostel more or less. · Many. comfort of otners who were in the hosteU-I do not use our club-rooms, and come in for meals. - think so, there are forces i-n a man wJ:lich

: 2062. Those you take full . charge of would him wish to behave like a -gentleman. · They are arunous men whose homes are out of Hobart ?-Y to have my -approval. I am elderly and •

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102 /

but I represent -home and mother to them i-n a sense. That would many .years ?-I afraid it

We work the hostel with young ladies, and the men would. I would not be in -f:;tvour of closing public are very anxious that they should not hear anything houses, because men need some place of meeting, and, that would offend them, or see any conduct that would after all, the public house is 9nlJ\ the poor _club. offend them. You have all the elements of right / 2082,.. Vl ould it :Q.Ot' be a good thing for the com­

thinking in those men, but it is constantly lost when munity if establishments like ;yo11rs were provided for they get under the influence of drink. It is impos- the_ general })Ublic ?-yes. _ There should , be no dark sible to say that drink is not an evil. -

1

places in men'§. lives. - In these drinking _places, only

_, 2069. In order to obviate -what: would -you sugl- the lowest form of women .a;re admitted. Drinking ·

gest ?-You will never coerce them into- temperance. should be open. There should be nothing to l_)e ..

· All the prohibition in- the world will never stop drink- . ashamed of. There should be no "sh,outing." That ing. is very essential. The landlord should not -" trea_ t "

Why do you that, if they ca:n.not get the and the men -should not "treat" E)ach other ..

d:Pink ?"-If you try to men, they will imme- I .am absolutely opposed to "shouting." -

diately seek to evade it. - - . . . 2083. To a certain extent, that is prohibition ?-Yes.

2071. Suppose the whole eommunity say, ." \Ve will 2084. By Senator Guy.-Could you say what pro-, not manufacture or sell drink" ?-If all the men were portion o"f who pass through your fall under .

willing and able to make a war sacrifice in that regard, the infly.ence of drink ?-I should .say_ that a.bout one­ we wo.uld dry it up at the source. third of the men are pretty well slaves to it. It is no

- use shutting one's eyes. Because_ they do not happen

2072. You would not advocate prohibition 'for the to -make a disturbance go before a Police Court, soldiers only ?-N °· ,.., or tlieir superior ofliGers, it -does not say that they are

2073. Would you ·advocate it. Ior the· whole com- not drinking. · ·

munity for the sake of the soldiers ?-There are foi'ces 2085. Are many of the · returned men in a very e-ver so much stronger ·than prohibition; if we weakened conditipn so far as their nerves are con­

, only get them into play. No one sets out to be a cerned, and nwre easily a -prey t? drink?-Yes; and

Every one want? to re_tain the possession. of that is why it is legitimate to give them a certain

_his nght .senses, to have h1s bram clear, and to hve amount of protection against themselves. - They ?-re in as _ an upnght gentleman. ·

1

an abnormal condition arising from abnormal circum­

_, 207 4. But ·a number of them do not, and• cannot ?---:. ' stances. Th_ ey ha';z.e lost their will power. They su:ffe.r

That is because their senses hav.e been dulled_ with from insomnia, and all sorts of fail-ure ' on the part . alcohol. The longer 1 a man drinks, the more he thinks _ of their vital forces. They are depressed, and suffer that it is right to do .so. · _, from want of occupat io11. _ ·

What would you do to overcome the difficulty; · 2086. What would amount of' the deferred pay

.·would you simply appeal to their moral sense ?-;:-It has drawn so1dwrs would be

gone too far for There are two- or three things about £20. ..L here was one case 1n whwh a. man dre-w

that might be done. The laws that are in existence I keep.._ of pounds for them In the safe

sheuld be carri-ed out. We should bring the camp at the hostel. , · _ .- . _

wjthiri the Sunday-trading radius. _It should not be 2087. Have an;y of the sold1.e_rs your

.that a man _ who in from camp on a port1on of theu :deferred pay

Sunqay

1s a traveller. dnnk .-That _has frequently ha.12pened . .

2076 .. Would not that be, to some extent, prohibi- By .Senator Colonel Rowell.-Who supplies

tion ?-Yes; you must have· that kind of prohibition. the funds to run the hosteH-=-The buil'ding was estab-2077. Would not_. a man make an ·effor.t to get i·ound lished ' by Cross. We charge the men

that kind of thing?-He would. If hotels are to be fees-6d. for 6d. for a practically

closed on Sunday, the law _ should be enforced. The . !'Un the whole on those fees. ' have

sold1ers are not travellers in· the strict sense of the - amounted to over £1';400 smce we started. · The Red : word. - Cross .branches in country us produce. -

2'078. Immediately you do that, you bring in -,;he . . Can .you .give us the of- men who

of prohibition and coercion, and soldiers, w.ell as the 111 - an Inebnated state, say Ill one ?-It. 1s

general public, wou]d try to defeat it jt is har-d. to say. of them have been taking drmJt

coercion ?--Yes; it is coercion, but I am afraid that before they come m, but you cm:Id drunk.

you wiil have to bring it in if you are ·going to - try There would not be than SlX 111 a week who would

and iaboli"sh Slwday trading. Why should men ·go be helpless th; ough· dnnk. . .

out of the hostel'in bunches at-6.30 o'clock eacn Sunday A man :re:rer acknowledges · that he IS under It is for the purpose o£ getting drink. the mfluence of ·drmk ?-Never. If. they can walk at

·

2

. all they f!.._lways try to appe:=J.r s?ber. . . _

2079. What do you suggest .-There shoul.d be a 2091. I suppose that most of those who lodge at

of detentwn for young men who fall ae?ain and the hostel are single . men Some of those who

and who cannot be _ frop1 the drmk. A sleep there have homes in Hobart. Almost aU the

should the power to put such a man returned men look upon the hostel 1 as their head-

a. home of detent1pn for a month or. three , quarters. · , · _

If. rt IS that cannot cont:ol hls f?r 2092. Those who . receive a large sum· of

he should be kept there forCibly hls bram ·deferred pay are siiigle ?--:-Yes.

1s clear. · -, · ·

2080. Would you suggest gen:er.al prohibjtion for the 2093. have

community, for the sake of the . soldiers and the com- a v•er.y h1gh opuuon of the returned sold1er, generally munity generally?-It would be .abs-olutely the best ?-Y-es. r _

thing if it could be done; but, ·untll educated 2094. The motive actuating the men in fighting

hotelkeepers to see that it is a contemptible thmg to sell · for country is_ in itself evidence of their raanly that destroys a man's self-respect, and that qualities

his trade is one that sb:'ould be looked upon as the 2095 . And you !ay that about a th:i:rd orthose with lowest forro of ;olOJU'Y P.:w,ki,pg, very little good would whom you come iuto oo,n.taot are victin:ts· o£ the dri±lling · habit .

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I .

2096. Do you know any cases in 'which returned - 2107. There mus(be a considerable of ladies

men been induced to in of ill-fame giving their time -there ?-Yes, about thirty or forty.

unti-l they have spent _all theiT deferred ·pay They wOTk in relays. They do not work than

ThE?re are many women who fasten on to these men , __ six hours at a time. I a·m the only person who IS there for the -.sake of their money. - alwavs. .

.2097. Have you hea rd that in most of -the large 2108. You say that one-third of the men who pass

cities many of these men get into the ·han'ds of ha1'pies through your hap.ds are inclined· to drinJr too. much; who absorb all their money?..::::... yes. . 1 _ have you given that matter careful do

;vou: not think that a proportion of one-thud IS a httle

_,

2098. Do you ,. find that the returned men at your too high ?-I do not think so. They are not drunkards ho stel lose opportunities of employment through indul- in the in which most men regard. it, but .they gence in alcC?hol of the :n_:.e"ri who are habitual dull ·their intellects/and take away all theu enthusiasm drunkardS do not care whether they work or not, but for life through drink. We give -them a .rational ho:ne.

are numbers of men-and this is a very · grave is no. more popular place among the soldwrs

side of the que stion-who drink enough not to care than our hostel. We provide no sfrong drink of any whether they get employment or not. We are losing kind there, but we give them g ood meals, good beds, to the count ry a · great deal than we are ever O'ood baths and a good clubroom. Practically we

· gaining by the, sale of intoxicating drinks in what I them gentleman's home life. They nevE;)r even

gall. I?-ar:-J?ower. - Jhere is want h of want stimulants in the hostel.

va c_!.llatlO.n [ln_d as to whether t t,a e- 2109 . How many out of the '800 men who have passed- hold agam_ or not. They lia ve ... lost a lot of then nerve th h h a· h c red em lo ent and lost d- · · d 1 h' h 1 -· roug your an s ave se u p ym an vitahty, an . t 1ey try to w _ Ip t emse ves up agam - 't .a · • t d t . ccount of their drinking b t . - 1 t. Wh'l th ·1 1 t -th t tli I an re urne o you, on a . . J:" s mm an s. I.e . eJ! O? t o a source ey_ habits L-I cannot' sa that very many have, but you w1ll never take hold of hfe agam or ·get strong enou_ gh - t · b th t y f f th en are I·n per:.. k l ; ld · - d h · t t mus remem er a very ew o e m to ta e up t 1e1r o oecupatwns an ave an_ m eres _ t 1 t Th - t sc ttered all over the in ·life again. We shall have hundreds and hundreds man en emftp : th e:r h a . and 'they ' come - of ineffective, men on OUr hands whom we sh-all never CbOUkntry er drecer':mgf eidr 'ffiSC atrge, ts · h · b · th' T'L ac again an again rom I eren par . rouse. Into ent us1asm a . out any mg: .11ey are · - . f · h · th umber peculiarly liable at this stage to lose all interest in · _ 2110 _ Have you any In s owing- e n . - life If we are to put men on the iand we must not of men ·who lost thmr positions through the excess:_ve · - f · · · d · k I - t ' that I know , p_ ut on isolated farms. The Government should use o .- canno say r • secure some -- centre such as a bacon factory, a cheese of many· special cases. fa.ctory, a.. creame;:y, or . a fruit-drJ:"ing place,. which 2111. By Senator Buzacott.-:-Of the third of the ; -will .be a of and prov:,de returned men who, take drink to ex c-ess, did you know the men/ while the land IS accumulatmg _In value from any of them personally before they went to the the cultivation grows up round centre. The - No. _ ' sooner these men. are away from _the Cities ar:d on to .. 2112. You do not know whether they attained· the' land better. We se:r:d to h ab'it drinkinf! or whether they 1 ... m. dozer:s, _ an,d they ar.e mterested m meetmg their 9-rin'kers before they left Australia ?-I that fnends m __c'tlla surroundmgs, but - C ..f!nnot take up some were drunkards before they left Austraha. the they accustomed t.o do before, and they 2113. Do you know any instance in-which a return,ed ..J become JUSt a of drag on theH ho; 1seholds. ., man has taken to drink since his return ?-:I do not 2099. Is hostel used for .. the purpose of pro- l {now· that I am in a position to answer that question. vidrng accomm<_?gation for men until they can get em- I do not know · that anything has occurred to make ployment ?-We keep them there /until they can get them take to drink especially after their return, unless employment, but when they do :finCI. employment they it is their peculiar condition of depression and disable- find that they break down. . ment. -2100. 'For what reason they are not strong 2114. Is it your opinion that the civilian is largely enough, owing to _their disablement, and because they responsible leading them into drinking habits by , are peculiarly liabfe to go to stimulants to drown their " s4outing " for them. and so forth?-Yes;_ I do think feelings of depression and inlability. that, most emphatically. · · · 2101. A large number of them are not reliable -as 2115. You think t hat drunkenness should be treated employees ?-That is so, it is a cruelty to supply as a disease and not as a crime?-Yes. 'In no case intoxicants to men in that condition. do es a man want to be a drunkard. 2102 .1 They are . not fit ·for _ 2116. By S enator Lieut.-Colonel Bolton.-! oiJ.. have No; after their - . told us that you have · spoken to total abstawers and 2103. Do yol;l regard the hqu?r traffic as / moderate drinkers· among the ·returned men on _ portant m the success :or failure. of repatnatwn. questi-on of prohibition, and th at they have said, -I It IS a great. stumbling-block m the matter of "Stop it altogether"; but "\Yhat is your own. ?­ I?en agam. . .-I should say "Sto·p it altog@ ther." but I th1.nk 1t ] S to<' 2104. In. VIew of what the -s?ldiers have done for drastic for the community. I do not thmk we are us, W?uld It be too great a ask the. people prepar ed for such a sacrifice. It be and of this- country to have total proh1b1t10n pendmg th.e evasion is even worse than havmg- the ev.:1l In the ' _settlement of the pro?lem of repatriation. ?-I have open. I never ask a man to sign the pledge of total asked m any of sold1ers who are temperate men, and - .. abstinence , because if he breaks it he loses his self­ who d.o clrmk, and eve ry man I have asked h as respect. I£ we cannot make men do something because said, u Stop It altogether." they want to keep them selves straight, we· coerce 210 5. B y Senator Grant.-Do yo u pay rent for the them in to temperance . premises you occupy?- Yes. I think we pay about 2117. Do you not think that the soldiers have made £250 per annum. We keep op. t aking in more rooms a pretty fair sacrifice by sacrificing their health for in the . building. / · ., th e. people of this 6<::mntr:v, and that nothing 2106. How many employees are there in the. hostel ? too drast ic that would help men to regam --.. -It_ is all voluntary wprk, which is doue by the V normal condition as nearly as possible ?-No. ·I believe .Aids · Detachm,?.nt. it would be the greatest war that we at hO'me

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could make. It would elevate ourselves as a 2129. When a id you- -return ?---=I was wounded- on

nation if we had the courage to say "We '':ill stop Gallipoli',- and returned in Octob Elr, 1915. I spent nearly it." - , _ _ two months in-a hospital in M elbourne, and then came

2118. By Senator prohibition was to Tasmania.

brought into existence do you not think that the men 21 30. your experience in regard to returned sold.iers would have t he tendency to fly_ to drugs or something relates to T asmania ?---:Yes. of that kind to take the· place of intoxicating drink?- 213 L _Are you of· opinion that_ the temptat ions sur-- Yes, they- might, though not to a very large extent. romi ding returned soldier_s have been prejudicial to the

The drug does not take the place of the stimulant. interests of a number of them ?-Yes, but I do not

If we stop the sale of drink we have to supply _some- think. the percen tage is very great. There is a certain thing in its place. We have to give a man congenial number of men with wh om it has interfered ' greatly, occupation. -It is most dangerous .the way in which we both as regards their recovery as hospital patients and leave these men without occupation. as r egards their rt:-entry into ciyil life. It is very

2119 . By Senato1· _ Qrant,-Do you think th11t difficult to get suitable employment for a ce1:tain number these returned" men have a great desire to engage iu of men. You may find them employment; but because · work on their return to Australia?- ou could hardly they occasionally get out on the spree they leave their expect it. They are suffering an intense reaction. work without warning their employer .of their intention

They have gone through experiences that we cannot to do se. Of cou rse employers ar e -ve ry cautious about even imagine. They have be-en strung up not' only once, takinK them back or about on any other returned but again and again, to something which is f ar worse soldier without making full inquiries into his character. than prepai·ing for hanging. They have seen their Practically ' they always inquire now whether a man

dearest friends mangled beside them. They have TC- is addicted to drink. _

ceived shock after shock, until all their vitality h as • 2132 . Would you advocate th at in ·regard to drink gone from them. It is impossible to make them take a returned soldiei· sh o1,1 ld be treated differently from an interest in anything, and in such a condition drink a Civilian ?-Most decidedly not. is _ a fatal thing for them to take. ' _ 21 33_ For the sake of tne soldier and the community

- gener ally wo uld you favour any attempt to abolish

Duncan McRae, Vice-President of the Hobart Branch drink altogether ?-- I believe that absolllie prohibition of the Returned Soldiers' Association, sworn and would greatly facilitate the work of repatriation and examined :- , · - do away with the large number of failures that will

2120. B y the Chairman.-H ave you been associated inevitably occur. My _ experience of the returned _ with the military· forces?-Yes. I enlisted on the 18th soldier is that the non-reliable man is- the one who · August, 1914, as a sapper in the fi eld company of takes drink to excess.

-engineers from Victoria. I am a Tasmanian by oirth, bvt I enlisted in Victoria. At present I am a sergeant 2134, By S enator Colonel Rowell.-Were you in the on the staff of the Claremont Camp. I have been a f orces before yo u joined -the A. I. F. ?-No.

member of the committee of the Returned Soldiers' 2135. What hospital we re yo u in in Egypt?-The 5th Association since its formation in 1915. Iudian. -

2121. Were you in camp at Broaameadows in 2136. In what vessel did you return to

Melbourne. .._ The Ulysses. - ' · -

2122. Would yo 11 look upon the , engineers as the 213'7 . ·Are you a total abstainer?-Yes._ pick of the Army?-The engineers are suppo!?_ed to be 2138. Have yo u always been one?-Yes. · one of the leading branches. - . ·-2139. By Sena-tor Lieut.-Golonel Bolton.- N aturally

212_ 3. Did drink affect in any way ?-It did your associatlon, which exists for th e purpose of looking not affect their efficiency very much. There was a - after the welfare of the returned soldiers and iheir certain number who drank to excess, but_not sufficient to dependants, is ver y much interested in anything affect­ upset them. · ing it ?--Decidedly, At a general meeting l1·ecently we

2124. We have h ad a great deal of difficulty to dis- appointed- a sub-committee to go into the question of -cover what "excess" is ?-I have neve r seEm men drink the effect of drink on returned sgldiers. -· _The report _ • enough to prevent them appearing on parade the of that committee was as - day. . The committee were of · opinion that drink h ad

212 5. If a man h ad been drinking the night b(lfore an injurious effect upon medical cases, especially and was on parade next day, would he do his work those suffering from neurasthenia, suppurating as well as if he had not been drinking?-He wo uld wounds, and injuries to the head. _ The general

probably be sluggish for , some hours, but the effects effect upon medical cases -is detrimental. of drink passed off very quickly in the case .of men - Dririk-has a ve ry diSturbing influence upon the 1 who are doing hard training. That would apply _ in successful employment of a certaiu_percentage of

- the case of men drinking heavily the night before. returned soldiers, rendering them unreliable. n

2126. Would you say that drinking in_ apy way h as ' been found in Certain cases tha-t men, after

interfered with in the operations in Egypt being found employment, will absen t themselves -

apd Gallipoli ?-During the last six weeks we were. in from "'' ork without acquainting their employer. Mena -Camp drink did interfere with the efficiency of Usually in these -cases it is found that S!JCh men the troops there. For the first month or so i t 'v._as not have go ne on a spree. This must iuevita_ bly· cause so noticeable, but later on the men seemed to get sick employers to be cau tious when employing so ldiers,

of the ·place, and a great deal of drinking went on in -:Employers, when inquiring for .labour; generally the camp itself. There were wet canteens there. make a p·ractice of asking for information as to

2127. Was that drinking in the camp due to the the sob riety of any applicant. Th e-. are

wet canteens there ?-Yes; but I would not say that of opinion. that the number of returned soldiers .any more drinking went on than would have been the .addicted to tbe excessive n_ se of alcohol is not -very case if the men h ad gone into the city. large. S01ne_ restriction of the consumption of

2128. You do not think that drinking was minimized liquor appears to the committee to be very desir-'-much by the fact that there were wet canteens in able.

camp ?-I do not think so, but the presence of the wet The members of the sub-committee were Lieut-Oolou el canteen wa.s a great advantage, because it kept men Butler, C.O. No. 9 Base Hospital, Sergeant H . Barret, q,way from the q_ther of Cairo. :md myself. Om report was -indorsed by the general

105

committee.1 The evidence in regard to medical 2158. That means that they will have drink, and '

was mostly given by Lieut.-Colonel Butler. Evidence consequently will patronize the local hotels and public in regard to employment was established the Asso- houses?-Yes. ciation records. ' 215.9. If they must have drink, would it not be

2140. Have you many unemployed returned soldiers/ better that it should be, supplied to . them at the can­ in your Association ?-I have about twenty-five waitiJ1g teen ?-I do not think that sufficient drinking goes on on the list at pi·esent. · in the cities here among the troops in-camp to worry

2141 . And you find there is some difficulty owing about it Yory much. My obsei·vation of the troops to some of these poor chaps being unreliable because in Claremont shows that there has not been a great of their tendency to indulge ?-Y es, but at present deal 'of drinking, especially since the introdudion of tim e it is difficult to fiud work for the men owing to 6 o'clock clo3ing. .

the scarcity of it. 2160. You believe- that 6 o'cloek closin g has been

2142: In most cases a!llong the .. ,members of your. instrumental in reducing the volume of drink con­ Association the tendency to drink is not the result of sumed ?-1 think that it has been a contributing factor a vicious inclination, but is the result of their experi:- towards the reduction of the drinking among the troops cnce, strain,· and abnormal conditions?-Yes; I think in camp. I believe that other faetors have played ·a . so. l think ·that , .. ery often the man who was addicted part, especially . the establishment of hostels in the city

to the use of alcohol before joining the Army is pro- for the use of the troops. bably worse now. Hig nerres not being as good as they · 2161. Is it not generally recognised that the tern­ were, he .ca!mot take so much drink before it affects perance bars attached to hotels can be availed of by him, I have seen several men ·who cannot take two soldiers, seeing that . they travel in from Claremont, or three glasses without showing symptoms of iutoxiea- which is outside the radius ?-It is ve ry well known t.ion, thot.tgh previously they -could take more 1vith.ou t among the soldiers that they are able to obtain liquor

doing so . ' practically at any time. -

2143. Do you know of cases where men have got into 2162. By Senator Buz ac ott.-Do any of these hventy-the ·hands of hotel sharks and harpies ?-I know of only - five members of your Association who are out of work one case personally. . receive pensions ?-The majority of them do .

2144. ·And that would be mostly due to giving away _ 2163. How many of the;ll. are fit to carry on their to liquor?-Yes. 1 know of several cases of men who usual calling_s the present time one They

have gone through their pay by getting on the drunk. chiefly consist of men who have bemi used to labouring Immediately after getting their deferred' pay they have work, which, on account of their ill-health, ·they are no gone .on the and they have been under , the in- longer able to do, and it is very difficult to find them

fluence of drink for weeks. light suitable work.

2l45. By Senator Gmnt.- Do all_ the returned men 2164. Their pensions would run from 5s to 17s. 6d. go through you r Association ?.:__No. per week ?-They usually run from 7s. 6d . per week ·

2146. How many have gone thr:ough it ?-About 700 upwards. -

so far. 2165. Would they be able to work in orchards at

2147. :For how many of those men has the Associa- fruit-picking and so on?-Some· of them might be able tio n been successful in securing eiJ1ployment ?-About to do class of work, but the_ re is no great demand 140 or 150. _ 1 fo r employment in that direction.

2148. H ow many of -those men have lost their posi- Is there a fair percentage that would be

tions 'through excessive drinking while they were in unemployed because of the exces sive use of alcohol?-employment?-I could name about three. Not a very great percentage.

2149, Can you say how many .others lost their 2167 D 1 1 t Association for employment from otJwr causes?-No. · · 0 emp oyers app Y o you-r · -2.150. Are there many of them?-I do not krrow per- ·men but the practice is not as wide-

sonally -of any cases, _ though I ·have heard reports- of sp read as I would wish. 2168. Where men are r eliable, is ' there a tendency

q!+ite a numbei·. l t . f' t r etUI'Iled

2151 . In addition to the three which. occur · to your "emip oyers 0 gtlhve erence 0

· · · · · ' h h d · k so ers !- n some cases ere 1s. mmd as havmg lost theu - employment t roug . rm -while in positions, there is a limited-number of others 2169. By Senator Guy.-Have yoi.1 noticed any dis-who havll also lost their .emplo]ment?-That is so. turbance when troopships have been passing through 1 2152, Being in favour of prohibition, would you -On one occasion, a c.onsiderable time ago, when a.

also be opposed to the continuance of what is known n11mber of Queensland troops were passing through, as the "shouting" · system ?-Absolutely. I believe there was a disturbance. that, though restricted measures such as anti- " shout- 217 0/ Was it due to drink ?-Absol utely. Occa­ ing" may minimize the evil,- they n.ever eradicate it. sionally when New Zealand troops have passed througl1 !tiy experience of both soldiers and is that if there has been a large amount of drui1kenness, but 1

drink is available they -will get it. - · have not seen any actual rioting caused through i t.

2153. Are there any shops in Hobart?- 21'71. Were the hotels closed when those troops were

I do · not know of any personally. - in port ?-That practice has only been followed for

215.4. Had the cantee.ri in Egypt been a dry canteen some months past. · . ·

would the drinking which- took place in camp have 2172. Th-e occasion of which you speak was prior to taken place elsewhere?-I believe so. I believe that the cl osing of hotels?-- Yes. the men would have gone to Cairo for their recreation. 2173. You have not S ·e en so much of that- kind of 2155 . Is ft yom: opinion that places similar to thing since the hotels have been clo sed· ·duriug the where camps were located).n Egypt should be passage of troopships through the port?-There has

with wet canteens ?-I think they were an advantage nt been practically none of it, though lately it has been Egypt. · . the practice for the ruen to go to the outskirts of the ,

2156. Would you favour the establishment of a wet city and obtain liquor. canteen at Claremont?-No. 2174. H ave you any knowledge of drink causing any ..

2157. Have the soldiers, , 17heif- t]ley to · Aus- particular trouble among the · troops on leave c:oming tralia, lost the taste for intoxicating Jiquor?- Oertainly in from Claremont or going out again to camp ?- Or: not. one occasion they damaged a railway carriage.

2175. In conversation with the men have heard - any · complaints from them- as to their treatment?-I have heard some of the men complain that they believe the c_ivil police were rather inclill(·d to. look rewrne_ d

soldiers in case of any disturbance. . '

2176. Have any of them complained that a few of the men drink to excess and give-the remainder a bad naine ?-Undoubtedly, that is a very general idea among returned· soldiers.; it is a real grievance with ·them.

2177. You have heard that?-Very _oft_ en the man in the ranks hears much more of what goes on than the officers. /

2178. You think that among the great majority of the soldiers. there is a desire to maintain · a good name ?--Absolutely- there is. ( - /

E.dward William Coombs, Provost Sergeant _of the I Military Police, I-fobart, sworn and examined.

2179. By the long have you been

in the Forc_ es ?-I went away with the first contingent. I ha:v._e been __a little over twelve months in the, Military Police in Tasmania. Prior to that I in 1 Egypt on

t.he Provost l\![a.rsh'fd's st.a.ff .· In the first instance the • military police were established in the camp at '

Cla1'ermont, and we use d 'to come to town every day, but now we are at head-quarter:rs. in Hohart.

L ieutenant Hart 'is Acting Provos,t M:arsha.l fo,r 'Tas­ mania. Our duty is. to lo'ok afte,r the men in uniform while they, are in town in regard to dress, cond}lct, and b•ehaviour,. There a,re ten of us, induding the corporal and myserlf. , .

2180. Does it require ten ·men to look after the

jlOldiers in If.obart ?-We, have a lot of running apout the country ,after d_ eserters, and we have to leave so manv men- in town. " Of course, there is ,only a small number of men in camp now, but there have been as many as 1,100 in Clar'emont at one time . .

2181. On leave days I suppose there are quite a

number of men in town the worse for liquor?-Yes. , ·2182. By Sena'tor Lieut.-Oolonel Bolto;,.-When you make arrests what .do you do with the men ?-We· take them to camp, but as the train- is ·only available at " certain times of the day, we take them -to the big room

at the gaol until the train starts. ·-2183. Could they- not be detained at the barracks?-

/.

106'

not help themselves. One man- cannot leave drink alone; but,- as he is a di.scha'-!:ged man, we cannot deal with him. .

2188. Otherwise he was a good soldier ?-I believe so. Drink has, a. hold of him that he leave

it

2189. By Senator Grant.-Are you in favour of the early of hotels ?-J do not know that I am.

I think- the 6 o'clock business should be cut out and the temperance bars. There is more drink got in tem­ peran.ce bars at night than is got in the liquor bars in the day time. . .

2190. Do you meari to say that mt:rzens can go into temperance bars and get intoxicating liquor ?-:M:ore men get- intoxicating drink at temperance bars' at night time than they -do in_ the day time. · / .

is it not permissible for the- soldier who •

conies in from the -Claremont Camp to get as much drink as he liKes?=-Yes, he is a traveller. I think that ' the _radius should be extended. ]fow,ever, the men are very orderly. You will haroly see a man drunk now. Some _young fellows put on a lot of you

speak to them they alk just as stra1ght as 1f they

had never had a drink .. 219-2. Your object in extending the radius would be to prevent' soldiers getting drink in the temperance bars?-Yes. The publican can supply them because they . . "

2193. Are you 'In "favour of the aboht10u of sho_ ut-"" ing " ?-Yes. ... '· · . - _

2194. Would you support the establishment of -a wet canteen at the Yes, I -believe it :JU·?uld be. a good

'thing. The canteens that I have. seen m Afnca. and _ elsewhere limit the men to a certam number of drmks. The men follow=-in one behind the 9ther, and' there are . non-commissioned- officers at the. bar. · The men are _ so many .... The usual canteen hours

under the British author!ties are from 12 noon to 1 o'clock p:m., ana from 6 p.m. to ·9 From no.on

till 1 p.:rp. they are only allowed a shandyga:ff, w1th three parts cordial. ·

2195. They have to pay the full, as for the

gen1;1ine beer·?-Yes. .

2196. Is 4

that giving a fair deal to the sol.dlers ?-:­ Th_ey have to do their drill ir: the afternoon, 1t would not do if they fiad heavy before parade. At

any . rate the men are .satisfied to pay what is asked. I would be satisfied to do it if J was thirsty.

- Yes:lmt we leave ,them at the gaol b'ecause it is handy to the train and saves us having to ' drag them to the They may be at the gaol not more than

' haH-an-hour or an hour. It ·would be a pretty -hard job to drag a drunken man -right through the town to the provost the barracks.

2184. What is the average number you to deal

in that way ?-It is a very small percentage now-.

The wor.st of the men have gone . away. The men we have in camp now are a far better cJass than.

those we had· to deal with months ago. We had some

2197. But would they not prefe! ·to have beer ?---:-I

s.uppose they w.ould if they were to have

but that is the order set down by the Bntlsh_ anthon­ ties for the midday drinli, namely, parts· c_ ordial and one part · . . _

' regular scoundrels \at that time . . 2185. Quite a number you would not interfere with? -We do not interfere with any men. We always use discretion. If a mmi has 'a little drink 1n him we do ­

not lock UlJ.' We take him away to the train or

get his mates ;to take him away, so long as we get him off the streets. I do not think we have had to lock a man up on account of drink. _

2186. So that the records would be no indication as to the amount of drinking ?--'-No. The records

refer to absent without leave cases and desertions. 2,187. Is there much drinking among the returned men ?...:::::we ' have had to take out prohibition orders against two men. The doctors told the!)! if they did not cease drinking they would get i.nto the asylum or their graves. They were .suffering fi·om shell-shock. They Went to the country, and used -to get a-s much tb,ere as they coqld get in the town., The;y could

2198. In view of the effect that has on sold1ers, -- would you be in of prohibiting it . altogether?­

I can' hardly say. I 'it· would be pretty hard to

impose that . .

· · 2199. Would you favour it ?-I do not thmk I would, on account of the small number of men now in 2200. Do you know if any men .have from going to · the Front on account of theu dnnkmg , habits_?-! do :hot know that I have known of any.

2201. By Senator Bttzacott.-Did you say that hardly any soldiers were arrested for drunkenness?-Not a single man has been arrested f?r but men

whe have been arrested for beiilg absent w1thout leave were under the influence of drink. r think that drink tends to lead men to 'stay .... away fro_ m ?amp. They get a drop too mucn and stop under the m:fluence.

2202. Is a separate cell a gaol for the

use of · the There is a cel.I there,. but we ,

do not put them in it. We put t_hem 1n. b1g_

It is very rarely that there are any

up with the ·soldiers. If a civilian _,is taken 111 ha _1e

107

put into ,the. cell. No trains leave Hobart . for . the '

camp between 8 and 11 p.m. If we get a man

after 11 p.m. he has lo remain in the _ big room _at the gaol until 6 o' clock ·next morning.

'

(Taken at Hob ert. )

.l\1iOND.A.Y, 25TH FEBHUARY, _1-91 8.

-P'resent:

2203 . Are there occasions twhen a soldier is in the · big- room with drunks and criminals ?----:-Not to my Senator THoM AS) Chairman ;

- J

knowledge. there are/ any civilians in the gaol they it.-Col. Bolton, I fenatoi; Guy,

are put· in the cells, or the soldier is put into a Senator Buzacott, -Senator Colonel Rowell.

. cell and the civilians in the big rqom. _ Senator Grant, .

2204. By Senator you noticed: any Grace R oberts, Nursing Sister Charge of the Field

'turbance in Hobart in connexion with the landing of at- Claremont Camp, e.\:-

troops from troopships that are passing th1•ough ?_; ammed :-was a disturbance on one occasion wheri some 2217. By the Ghairman.-How long have you been -

New Zealan< ;rtroops were here. The . disturbance at Claremont Camp?-:Since the· 1st June, 1917. It was plaQe among the New Zealand ti·oops. my ii_rst engagm:;rl'ent with the AustraliaTi Forces. Prror

2205. You would have no control over them ?-No.-. to that :f was . with the I .. ady Minto .kssociation in 2206. Was it occasioned by dri1fking_?-N o. I do I ndia. ,

not know what . the squabble ' actually was, bec-ause I 2218. Who go into the hospital at the camp, mem­ never got to the bottom of it; by.t I do not think that hers of the Forces who are injured or sick?-Yes. We drink was the cause. 'The trouble took place ani-

drinking. _ ' · 2219. Are you i,n a position to give ns your views

22-07 . N ine months hack you had more· serious deal- as to the effect of drink on the outgoing and incoming ings with th e rnen?---Yes, but they were· not drunks. soldier '?-I think- that the incoming soldier i ::; more They were silly young fellows who .got a· lot of- dri11-k by drink than the outgoing.

and were "cracking" to be drunk. We did not have - 2220 .- .-:· In the case of the outgoing it de.tes not come them lo cked up. vVe always use discretion to get their under your notice ?--Not unless they are ill through mate-s ·t-o take them. off tne _ __,. · drink and have to come to the hospital. •

2208. ·you said that there were some scoundrels here 2221. Have you many cases of' that' sort?-Yes. then ?-I was ·talking of deserte-rs who cu t_ themselves, 2222. H ow d.o they get ill through drink]-It .causes out of the detention barracks with table-knives. Seven- .dyspepsia and gastritiS. ..

deserter-s were shanghaied away to Sydney. They 2223. You have not h ad m any cases among the out­

were out-and-ont scoundrels,- who had no right ever to go ing -soldiers ?-.,....Out of the- 400 cases treated in the be assqciated ·with decent men. · hospital since T h ave been there, not more than four

220 9. When you arrest soldier-s you leave them 1n among . the ou tgoing men and about five among the the civil gaol because it is so handy to the inc.orning meu \NOulcl be really alcoholic. Then we

station. have· had about ten -cases of illness really caused through

2 E

' ' / drink. ·

2 10. ven if ,;you have to/ leave them there all ·

night?-Yes, but it is a very rare occasion when- we 2224. In what way ?-Nervous breakdown, gastritis have to do that. and dyspepsia: \

, _ 2-225 . What were the Iiine other cases which you

22 11. ·By , Senator Colon !3 l . Rowell.-You have just describe as alcoholic.?- Three of them were cases of -the same po-wer to arrest a .soldier as the civil police - deli1·ium tremens) and one of those was that of a re­ h·ave ?___:Th@ civil police do not interfere unless a breach turned man. of the civil law is committed. , 2226: I suppose they. created a disturbance ?-They

2212. Do not the _ civil police - ever arrest a man - upset whole 9f the ward. -

who becomes hopelessly intoxicated ?-Not to our know- 2227. Were the other patients inter-fered with .After a discharged soldier is out o£ his uniform_ cannot say that my patients have suffered from it, but

he IS P.racti?ally out of/ our hands,- and the civir police they are not eases. We ao ·not get the serious

deal w1th h1m. cases there. All serious cases are transferred to Rose-

. 2213. Do you· not think it would be be-tter, in -the neath' mterest Qf the Forces, that soldiers who· are arrested · 2228. Do you think that drink has interfered with should not ... be taken to the civil prison?-We had no the eificiency or training of the troops '?-Not so L . .r other place to _take them at one time. as I can judge.

_. 2214. Is there· any likelihood of any- alteration being 2229 . Has it seriously interfered with

made ?-There are provost cells at the. barracks now. rnen ?-I think it prevents recovery from their wounds. It was a!l arrangement made witn Captain' Davies and 2230. Do yo u think -that a tofal -abstainer recovers the Commissioner of Police that we should -he able to from his wounds better -than a rhan virho drinks mode­ leave them at the gaol because of its convenient situa- rately ?--I think the chances of the mode rate drir1ker

tion to the railway. · · ' . and the total abstainer are about the same.

2215. I f you arrest any man is it your intention- to 2231. W hat is your dist{nction betwee11 a take him to the barracks?-When we get men at drinker and one who drinks heavily ?-_A moderate the top of the town we take tliem there, but if we.._ get drinker is never drunk. I suppo se that a heavy drinker them just before the ·train starts we have no tiriie to Mould get drunk.

take, them to the barracks. :yr e simply leave .them 2232 . If a mm1 never gets drunk do yo u think that

gaol /while we ·n. a:v-·e lunch, and then we take he recovers from his wounds just as W·81l as a man

them to the train. - who is a total abstainer?-I think so.

2216. By the Chairman.-What is the meaning "shanghaied" ?-It- is a well-known military \;'\rord. It means that they were sent away , under escort to Sydney, the port from which the reinforcements were

leaving for the Front. Those men went away · to the Front. /

2233 . What wo{lld lead to a man being describe

2235. Are you irt favour of ' the total prohibition of importation, manufacture, sale and exportation. of

ee, d.uri,pg

;_

) -

108

2236. Would -that _ proh_ibition apply to as although he might not show Some men can -stand

yvell as soli:liers ?-The soldier should be treated exactly more than others. -the same as a civilian is_. · 2253. Hav·e ever heard ·any: from the

· 2237. In the meantime you in favour_ of :.. a men who go- into_ the hospital 'about _the ·pu,blic "treat­ proposal that would have the effect of _ preventing :rp:en · ing" them outside?-Yes ; . they say they never would or women "shouting" for each other ?-From what have drunk if ·some one had not said, "Come in and the men tell me, I think there is more harm done by_ have a drink." ... .---

, "shouting"' than by anything else. · _ 2254. It is largely because of the- kindly feeling on

2238. Do vou know of men wh6 have been delayed the_ part of public that men_ drink to excess ?-Yes. in camp drinking to excess ?-I have heard of 2255. And they Qomplain ef that ?-Yes. ·

one or two cases but it is a matter which did not come . 2256.' By Senator C_olonel Rowell.-Were you nurs-u-nder m:y \V e have h_ad _Qne or twp cases oC j ng with the military in J ndia ?-No ;' with the Lady

· delirium tr-emens) but I understand the men were dis- c_ MintO Association: It was . semi-military. We had _ charged from service becal!se they }Yere absolutely un_----- military - . -. . .

fitted through drink for going away. . · -2257. Did you go to the South war with

2239 . Had they acquired the - habit of drinking· the Australian service ?---:No, with the Imperial. · before . .. - · _ _ " 2258. In that campaign, did you find the soldiers

2240. During your experience in camp- you have had drinking to excess ?-No, because they could not get it; only three cases of delirium tremens · and only one man the canteens were closed. -· . _

has been prevented from going abroad ?-One man who 22 .. 59. Do you think that the. drink more to

suffered from delirium tremens is still in camp. He exeess than the general populatiOn as a whole ?-No. \vas in hospital before- Christmas.. I cannot say _what 2,260. Do you think it affects their so far as

his service was before he came into. hospital. At present , a campaign is concerned ?-I am not competent to say he is .absent w_ ithout leave. - There was a prior case in that, becau·se we do · the men on duty. which a-man was discharged after he left t}J.e -_2261. -By _ Lt.-Qolonef Bolto-n.-With your_

22t11. You actuaJly .know _of on y one soldier who -..vide experiences in South Africa, India,-ana Australia, has fr?m .gomg .to thE? by the _would you regarg the-drinking habits -of the people and

excessive u-se of mtoxiCatmg drmk ?-It IS the onl-y _ the soldiers generally as .something _which their case has coE-1e under knowledge. ·power in, effectively prosecuting the_ present war ?-I

. Ho:w many outgomg men have you ·treated sbould -think -that if there was- -much drinking it

· m tlie hospital ?-About 350. . must do so. _

And out that number four were due to the 2262.--c From impression which you have--formed

excessive_ use of drmk . already, wha( do you think ?=--I should it would .

. 2244. And all those men went away ultimately except _ 2263. you have seen the effect of alcohol on the one?- .. 0. · . . . _ - . -- who has - experienced the strenUOUS

224o. qut of the four suffenng from .the cqnditions of war?-Yes. _

· use of. dr1Ilk all of to !ront with the 2'2G4. would you regard_ indulgence in alcoho! _as a -

exceptiOn of the who I S no.:w absent. without lea':"_e and handicap to- the- proposals of the to pro­

suffe:ed from dehn1tm . tremens?-We nothmgo_ tg_ pedy repatr·iate these men and look a.fter them?-I do do With them after they go out of the hospital. not know enough ·about the matter to express an

not know .what was the of a. man's .. discharge opl.nion. '-: . .

from the. hnes. We do not d1schar!?e them frum -· 2265.- From ·your experience of returned men, would the hospita_l. go back to _ you consider _ t4at they become irresponsible ?-De­

they are discha;ged. What I said ':as that one man cidedly they-do. Drink_ affects them more easily. They no_z gone, . Bm;ause I that was seem to be a more nervous and brok:en-d-own condi-

discharged from the servwe. . _ . . tion than they were befe-re. - :

. 2246. H ave the others gon: to t);le .Front ?-I co_ulc! 2266. That being so, the ·Governme!_!t have /a not say:_ _ . . _ _ better chance of helpii],g the inan who does _not drink

, 2247. Out of. the 350 outgomg yatients that came than the man who,.does ?-Yes. · under your notrce. one · has beeri discharged because · of- '), · - . -· _

the excessive use of drink?--I. could not _tell you how .{.1?67. By the Is - J;OUr reason [or

many of the others -have been discharged. • . _ saymg that J.:'OU dur;mg the _war.-

2248. I underst_and from your. evidence ·that on-ly When a ,maJl IS· gomg away, It will give him every chance four out of 350 cases of outgoing soldiers were actuall-y to do !us best. _ . . ...

ill on account of the excessive use of drink ?:_Four . 2268 . . your reason 1f we have totaLprohibi-_

cases were actually diagnosed as alcoholic. · · t10n. durmg the It will help us_ to render better

> ' - • • • - service as an Army, and enable the Government to

2249. By Buzacott.-Is. alcohol!c drmk used <:leal with the returned soldier better?-That is my ap.y purpose m the hospital at opinion. • - · ·- ·

Smce I have- been there It has been used about tw1ee. It is kept at th@ dispensary for qases ·of emergency. 2250. Do you think . that the Australian· soldier is more inclined to drink than soldiers from other parts of the world ?'-I think they are all about equal.

2251. Are you under -the impression that the civilian population are responsible-- for . most of the drinking carried on by the soldiers through the "shouting" habit?-Yes, from what I can gather from what the men tell me.

2252. ·By Senat01· Guy.-If a man was given to taking eight · or ten glasses of whisky a day, and still was not visibly affected by it) would you consider that lie woul have an equal chance of recovery from

wounds with the man who is a total -abstained-If he took that much it would affect him- m some

Milton George Brown, · and examined.

2269. By the· -Chairman._;__ How long have -you been .connected with the Military Forces ?-Since July, 1915. I left for the Front on the _15th August, 1915, and was on Gallipoli until the evacuation. · Then, after three

months in Egyl)t, I went to France. I left there in

.November, 1916, arriving home . in April, 1917. ): joined the Home Servjce, :and had about tFO months in here, and -then joined the Pay Corps at the

.Barracks. _ -

· 2270. Can you give a statement of your views as to­ whether drink interferes w-ith the efficiency and training of our soldiers going to the Front ?-I do not know that r have anything happening in the camp owing

to drink interfering with the efficiency of the solqJera.

. .

I ·have se!3h men in unifol'II! tlie w6rse_ :for drink, btit L -should "be allowed to buy drink freely ?-It certainly does do not thi!!_k that they have only taken to drink _ them harm if they have too inuch. - What I fo und at being _§Oldiers. I think. that they were drinkers as Capetown, where the hotels wer e closed, was that men - civilians. - who were inclined t 0 get drink go t stuff f r om the

2271. We get our soldiers from the civilians1-That natives, and. it upset them very ·much more th an would is so. _ - hav_ e been the easEl if they had' been allowed to go into

Som!3 civilians indulge · a little before they be- the hotels and purchase proper drinks.

come soldiers, and when b"econie soJdiers, do , - 2293. I suppose got spirits _ fr om the natives?­

not automatic_ally cease to indulge and become -total -- Yes ; it is impossible to §top the natives from selling it . . abstainers ?-'-That is so. 22 94. The suggestion h as been m ade by some of the

22'73. They still carry practice of drinkiilg into - that, instead of closing the hotels at the different

camp?-Yes; but I think a great of the men pQr ts of call, the military authoriti E

have respect for the uniform. I know in a lot a canteen fo r the soldiers·, and prevent them from

of cases, me:n ha.ve not been drinking as heavily in being supplied with drink at the Iiotels ; are YQU in uniform as they ·would have been doing if they haP, favour of suQh a scheme would be a ve ry good idea. · remained civilians·. _ - 229 5. Do you think the soldier would take exception

227 4. Then there ·is a certain 1fumber who do drink -..- t.o having a club of hi.s own, and being refused drink just as before -at other places ?-I do not think so. . .

- 227_ 5. ·What we want_ to know is whether those men you seen many cases venereal disease ?

lessen the general efficiency, or make it more difficult - Yes ; a great many jn Egypt. for the officers to train the ?- I do not think 'they - 2297. Do you think that venereal -disease do ing

do. I have been on good man;y sick parades at Clare- more to deter the efficiency of the Army than intoxicat­ mont, .and I have seen very few cases where . soldiers ing drink ?- I certainly think so . - · ha_ ve gone on sick parade owing_ to drink. -- _ 2298. I S"'\.-lppose th ai you are aware that a great many

2276. If every one in- Tasmani_!i 'Yas a total abstainer, , vict iri1s of vener eal disease admit that they contracted ·of -course all the soldiers would be ; __,do you think that it while unde r the influence of liquor?-They have that would be an advautage1-I do not think so, because admitted it to me when I have been dealing with as soon as they leave .Australia they are able to- get in hospitaL At the sam e- time, I think it is op.ly an

drink right up- to the firing line. - excuse in a good many cases. ·

2277. Supposing wt( were a ·prohibition State, and 22 99 . Do :vou- thiJlk that they would have had the every one was a ' teetotaller, do yol]_ think that it would tendency to to certain piac..es whether they were drunk not help to make it easier for the officers to d:r:ill the or not ?-I certainly _ think SQ. -

men, or obtain efficiency?-The physique of th:e soldiers · .·2300. Do you think that 50 per cent. o-f the cases is .proving· that drink is not doing- very, niuch harm to would _ be attributable . to intoxicating drink ?- I think _them. _ - · so. In m;y experience, easily 50 per cent. of the men

2278 . I your opin-ion oh the matter ?-I .do not who. contracted vl:niereal disease ·were practically to tal think it would make any C!.iffererrce. ' · .abstai-ners. , There v:rere tvvo or three cases in my owu

227Q. If you ha

it more difficult for tlie ·nurses -to deal with the other has h ad a good effect so far as-the soldiers a-re concerned ? patients ?-If it--was_ the other patients, \it cer- - -:_It makes no differen ce to the soldiers, because they can tainly would; but I haye never had any experience of a st ill go jnto the hotels and get just as Inuch drink as man being _in hosp-ital with delirimu trefue ns. - · ·- they wish. '

Would· not the-nurses have to devote ·a certain 2302. Can the returned soldier' get drink after 6

o.f time to would to have a o'clock _in , H obart ?- Any returned soldier located at

man lookmg after the-time. . . Clar emont or Roseneath Hqspital .oan do so.

2281. Do ·you would. Interfere a httle w1th 2303. I-I:as the early closing of hotels h ad a good effect the Yes. · . on the returned soldiers who are located in the cityJ-

2282. It would. make the work .of the nurses a httle I do not think so. -It h as led men to br-e ak the law. more difficult . . -- They meet who h ave been out of town when

If every .was a t_ otal a?stamer, and they come into the city, ana they attempt t·o go int o

no cases of _tremens } It would be a httle hotels and drink with them . In that way they violate

- better ?-1 es. . . _. , the law and get into trouble. _

2284. If all the retur:Q.t'd soldiers .were total 2304. Do you a-pprove of the "shouting " habitt ?.:.._ stainers,-would it b_ e a little easier for the Government N o. /

to ·. work a scheme of repatriation ?- I do not 2305. Do yo u think t hat . an "ant i-shouting" law

thmk so. . - . . . . would have a goo d effect ?-I think it WOllld, especially

2285. You do not thmk that <}nnk .will have even s·o f ar a.s .returned soldiers are con0erned. · the slightest effect on any scheme of repatriation 2306. Are the civilian po pulation · responsible for 2286. By Senator Buzacott._:_How long were you in drinking among the soldiers ?- About Hobart the Egypt ?-Abo:!:lt a week, on · the first occasion. civilian population · fo llow the soldiers about ·with the

2287. Was a wet canteen in your ?-Yes. of getting a from them_. . I h a':'e in

2288. Are you 1n favour of wet canteens?-Yes. I ev1dence tha:t. the clvihan his . ap:pree1at10n for think they keep men in _camp more. _ w.hat the_ soldier has by_tab:ng-hlm m bu:ymg

2289. Ar_§_you in favour of spirits being- sold in wet 9- Im -a drmk. The ·boot IS on t?e other foot. canteens ?-I think thB:t they should sell beer only. That 2307. you a total ..

was what we g.ot in Egypt. · 23 08 . Dw you sample the sp1nts sol d 1n

2290. Were the hotels closed at the ports of call on N o. your return to Australia ?-Yes. 2309. B y Senator yo u have much experi-

2291. Do you think th-at necessary?-No. ence m Claremont Camp before leaving?- About five 22_92. When men ·are returning after a long voyage, weeks. their nerves are somewhat shattered, and they are liable 2310. During that time did yo u know of any case of to be· affected more by taking drink than otherwise they a man having been- discharged for alcohoJLsm ?-I have would be; do you think it is a good thing that they . known of one case since I came home.

--

110

2311. vVere 'there· an·y cases of men suffering from 2331. You have known of soldiers to - be discharged deliTi:um tremens ?-There was one man in hospital because of their drinking habitsJ -During the whole suffering £rom the · effec ts- of drinK; - but not frcim of my I have know!! of two cases of men who

deliriuf!1; trenwns. .hav•e been discharged;

2312 . Why are you in favour of 2332. You have known ·Of many cases of absence

- when you S'ay that drin'k has no effect on the efficiency without leave?_;_% es. -of the service ?-.As I explained just now, it would put _ 2333. cases are no't recorded as being

a stop to a lot of those so-called hangers-on f ollowing the result -of- drink, I suppose you know that many of us about in the hotels with the chance--of our buying them are really caused by drink ?-I have seen cases. them a drink - where .men have been absent without leave as result ·

2313 .· But why- do that if drink has no effect on the of drink. soldier or on his efficiency?-:_:My remarks in -re_gard to 2334. They wo uld not be - as of drink?

" anti-shouting': have no relation to efficiency. :::- --;,_No: simply absent-wi:thout-leave cases. 2314 . . The only object you would h·ave in supporting _ 2335. By Senator long were you _on

"anti-shouting" ·would be to -save the soldiers' pockets Gallipoli ?-About seven _ _

little ?-Not only to save our pockets, but also to save us 23_36 :· Was any· intoxica,ting drink available on the from: being continually worried by . those nien who are ' boat going from Egypt to Gallipoli or from chasing us around the town thinking, perhaps, that we ' Gallipoli to Egypt ?-No. have drawn some deferred pay. 2337. Were ruin rations issued on Gallipoli

2315 . ' Are yo u referring to men or 233 8. How often ?-Every night the cold

tainly to men. J\ify experience on several occasions - weather. since I have returned home is that, when I have been 23 3·9 .. Before or after actions ?-My unit was never in an-ho,tel, two or three at a tirrie h ave come in asking in ;action, but rum was issued at 7 o'clock--every night. me and my companion..s to buy them drink. · Th5lY see us 2340. \Vas it ge:nerally c-C?nsunwd by those who r€!ceived going in, and follow us in. it, or dtd certain men hand it over to their mates?-

231 o -r:r h d ' 1 . fi'Om othe·rs We had to stand in_ front 6f the quartermaster's stores o. .r: ave you ear any com p ·an1 ts . b · ·1· f 11 · h · b d , and drink It. , a out ClVI 1ans . o owmg t em Into ars an 2341. And. if you did not drink it you did not get " bumming" f.or dri11ks am speaking from what I it ?-If we did not drink it, it was not given to us. have seen myself, and I hav seen a so-called _ 2_ 342. How long were you in Egypt ?-About two

"bumimer" going-up -to men fn hotels and askinO' them weeks prior to going to Gallipoli, ·and afterwards from to buy drinks for him . , , January to the end of March. -·

2317 . You have not heard complaints. from othe-rs D'd · · 0 · y

about it ?-I have heard it talked about in Hobart. 2343· I you VISit airO .- es.

2344. Were you 8Jlowed. to go into Shepheard's

2318. It has ' not been you_ r experjence that the Hotel ?-No. " shouting " has been a kind of mistaken kindness on the 2345. Did that cause -any· disturbance among _ the part of the civil popul-ation I do not t hink there men cause d ill-feeling among the men, who might

are ve1:y many 'about who would take. you into have preferred to- go there, where t4-ey could get a hotel and buy you a drink if they that you . decent beer; rather tlian to other places to which they

d1d not have the money to return the_ "shout." · · · ,

went in order to buy

2319. By Senatm· Lt.-Coloni;, l To what unit 2346. Who, was -responsible--£ or preventing Australian did you belong?-To t he first casualty -clearing .station. soldiers from having a drink of beer- at Shepheard's . 2320. Since when have you seen service?-We. em- -:-I do riot know. There -was a picket outside in order bark_ ed · August, 1.915 . . . - to prevent us from going in. - _

2321 . You have said t4.,at men could get drink even 2347. Were the Australian soldiers co:riJ-gelled to con-in the firing line ?-In some cases it was possib-le to of an inferior character to -that'which was

get beer and champagne within three-quarters of a milo provided for the officers at Shepheard's ?-I really do of ,the firing line. · _ think so. - "· ·

2322 . Were those places under military control?_,__ 2348. You di_ d not sample the beer at Shepheard's ?--- N o; they were French estaminets. I did not have a chance to do so. - - ·

2323. 'Are they under shell fire all the time _ 2349. Was drink easily in France ?-'-You

Civilians have be en killed right -in the towns . where• could get--it after 6 o'clock p.m. until 8.30 p.m., these est'aminets are. and in some of the little French houses, commonly

2324. Within three-quarters of a mile of the firing called estaminets, you could go in at dinner-time and li_ne ?---They could get drink ai -certain hours of the .get a drink. , - · '· -

day wt the estaminets in Arm en ti-e-rs. 2350. Wine?- WinE\ or beer. ,

- Do you say that the r eserve units were kept 2351. Did you ever see any man drinking to excess

within of a mile of the· fir!ng line?-My there?-I 'cannot say thai l; did.

unit was within half-a-i11ile '-of -the firing line. 2352. If prohibition is brought about, do you · think 2326. I am speaking of reserve tmits, battalions and thal the people concerned in the liquor trade should companies ?-=-At Atm-entier.s there were units out df the- be compen;mted for the loss of their positions and the firing line but within very little over a mile away. depreciation of their .property ?-Yes.

232 7. Were they resting?-Yes. - 2353. By the Chairmgn.-You say that you do not

2328 . And they had leave to move ahout the village think that the drinking habits of the people have iJ?.ter­ and visit ho tels within a mile ?f the 1 firing line?-Yes. fered with the. efficiency .or ·otherwise of the soldiers Do 'You know of any cases of returned soldiers or in regard tb our making maximum effort ?--:-I do

-vvho, :while under the influence

duced to enter houses of ill-fame and remain there until 2354. -You favour a, wet canteen, but you would not they have spent-all their do not-know of any allow spirits to be sold there ?-No. I think it is .quite

houses of 'ill-fame in Hobart. - · sufficient for t!?-e ,soldier to be able to get beer there.

23 30. The11 evidence given here t o the effect that this -2355. W--hy do :-you not believe in the sale of spirits 'vas the -case could not be true ?-I do not say that it - in a wet canteen ?-They are too expensive, but · that would not be true. I say that I do not know of one - 'is not my reason . . If a man who is inclined to have a house of_ ill-fame in Hobart. few takes-beer, it will do him any harm, but

/

·I

\

· 111

if he d:Vinking whisky or other spirits it may cause trouble. - · ·

2356. If he likes to come into town he can get

spirits is so . .

2357. He comes back to the camp after having ob­ tained spirits in th-e town; and he does not interfere with the morale or eflkiency of the camp ?-My experi­ ence is that once -a man gets spirits he continuously wants more. · · ·

2358. I understood you to say that the liquor ·habit had no detrimental . effect, although a large number· of civilians drin:Jr spirits?-That is ,so. ,

2359. Some civilians who have been accustomed to · drinking whisky have become soldiers?-Yes. I 23_60. They have not ceased to be drinkers ?-No. 2361. Whisky had had absolutely no detrimental

effect on them from a military of view ?-I do not think so. ·

2362. Then why do you object to a mim ·having the opportunity orl{uying whisky at a wst canteen ?-I do · not beli-eve in spirits. 2363 . You say they have done no harm ?-I suppose

that I have my view.s just the same as a man who does not believe in drink. - 2364. But he says that drink does harm, whereas you say that it does not dd harm, and if drink does not do

harm why bar whisky?-It does not do any harm so far as the efficienQy of the soldiers is concerned. ' . 2365. It, does_ no.t do harm to any one ?--I do not think so. , · -.·

2366. Then why bar it ?-::-In no camp that I have been in di_ d they sell other than beer. --

2367. Why we grant a monopoly to the beer­

drinker; if the whisky man wants whisky why should he not have the opportunity of buying it if it does not do any harm ?-If they sold· spirits at a canteen it _:would lea-ve a little loop-hole for a man to misbehave

himself. -· -

2368. But/ he can into town and have as ·much

- whisky as · he likes without doing any injury _ to him­ self ?-I WQuld not attempt to say that it will him physically, but morally it may do so. Spirits tend to make a man cause trouble very much quicker than

beer would. , · "

2369. According to-yo1,!,-they have not done so. What reason have you for saying now that spirits would do so, when already you have said that they have made no difference ?--They h-ave not in regard to the fllen's _ physique or in regard to efficiency.

2370. Then why sho ld yo.u prevent whisky from being sold 1-,---.Some men ge1 t , if they. get

whisky into them. If there is no whisky •sold at ·the canteen there is-less chanc of there being trouble at the canteen. ·

2371. Have any soldiers become fightable in the camp from drinking whisky ?-I· cannot say. - 2372. You think that :some have whisky in Hob!!-rt, but they never _ become fightable out at the camp ___ on

that account; then what harm has whisky-drinking done ?-None; but it might lead to harm. ·

2373. Some people are foolish enough to say that beer might ?-I do not think it would. 2374. -It is rather difficult t0 undel'stand why,

although ·are of opinion that spirits have done no harm to any one, you should want to __ bar any frbm having them '?-They have done no harm physi­ ca1ly so far as I ha'l(e ·seen, but they might cause trouble 'and rows among the men.

237 5. If there were rows . among the men would it tend to the inefficiency of the camp?.:.._ I think so. · • 2376 .. But so far whisky has not had that effect on any one in the camp ?-Not from my

2377. Seeing tl}at it has done no harm, -1t seems to me strange that you would bar it ?-I advocate that a wet canteeiJ. should sen-beer only. . -

- t

237,8. Although whisky has physically .done no harm and has been the result of no' disturbance in camp, you wquld say to the man who wants a glass of whisky that · ·he l!lUSt not h;:tve it ?=-I would. 1 . . ·

2379. By Senator Colonel Rowell.-Were not Im­ /perial ·soldiers ' barred at Shepheard's Hotel in Cairo? -=So far as I know, they wm'e. '

2380. Was there any embargo in regard to the Con­ tinental Hotel ?-I attempted to get into that hotel one but there was a picket, which would not allow me

lll.

2381 .. The of the rank and file · debarred

from going into those two _hotels ?-That' is so.' 2382. By S enater· 01·ant.-Were the soldiers debarred · from getting a drink at Shepheard's from t\e very first after ·the arrival of the Australian troops in Egypt?­

I heard men say that .they went into Shepheard's when they first arrived in Egypt. . _ ·

. 2383. And you cannot definitely say why they were - subsequently debarred ?-No. I -was not there when that was done. j 2,384. Does whisky_ tend to make a man more trouble­

some than a similar quantity of beer?-I do not think that beer will cause the harnl that a . similar quantity of whisky will cause. 2385, What would happen to the man who drank a

quantity of whisky that would cause no harm to a ,man , drinking would lead to tr.ouble among the

meri and disagreement. 2386. Whisky ·is very much stronger than beer, and more tiable to cause intoxication when taken in similar quantities ?-=Yes. /

2387. Is that the reason why you are opposed to selling whisky wet canteens; a man may take several drinks before it commences to h ave any effect, and may ·get drunk without knowing it ;,i s tllat the basic reason _ for your objection to whisky ?-It is . .

2388. Men might get a dangerous quantity on board before knowing that they had qone so?-Yes. 2389. By Senator Bu_z_acott.-Do you think it would be in the interests of the soldiers to reduce the alcoholic strength of liquors do not know. The beer which ·

we got _ in France was very much weaker than the beer we ' get here. A man could drink beer for hours in France without its having any effect on him. 2390. Do you think that it would be better to sell

beer in wBt canteens in the camps in Australia not exceeding the alcoholic strength of lager beer ?-I do . not know· that it would make very much difference. The beer supplied to us in Egypt· was of a stronger

nature than the beer you can get in Hobart. -

2391. Out .of the two beers, those supplied in Egypt and those supplied in France, which do you conside:J; the more suitable for soldiers ?-.-:.I that the weaker

beer would be better for the soldier than the strong one. 2-392. By Senator Lt.-Colonel Bolton.-!£ your' medical officers told you that whisky woulc!_ .be very dangerous to y<;m if you drank it, would you believe

him·?-I do not know, not being a whisky drinker. -2393. Would you believe wha:t your medical o·fficer would tell you ?-I suppose that I would have to do so.

2394. Then medical evidence to the effect that the drinking of whisky is injurious to soldiers would be true ?-I suppose it would be true if medical inen said it .

2395. By the Chairman.-You are not in favour of any restriction on the liquor of the soldier that is not equally applied to the civilian ?-Certainly. It stands to r eason that if a man wlio is fond of his glass of

. beer knows that _immediately he becomes a soldier he will be debarred from having it, it will not tend to help recruiting. •

/

- You are .not in-;favour of prohil;>ition for every anywhere. As. a ina:tter of fact-, 'they fall asleep in · one ?-No .. - - - - . .. - our - lounge cha:lrs. - "' Young_ _ fell9ws "' who .have been,

. - But you wou-ld prohibit the from having intoxicated come there and beg a bed . . - -

:whLSky ?-:-Only at the we.t canteen in can:tp, btit not in. The ovenv4e1niing majority those who

the city. - . · _ "> · _ , occupy beds your ·hostel are steady,- sober young

2_998. It

_spirits are ..)sold at the wet cantee1i iC may. cause trouble. 2410: }.'he - man wlio is a total or a

2399. Are ·you not placing · a restriction on the nioderate drinker does -not come to you and ask for a soldier il1 camp whi.cn you are not prepared to - bed for He would be insulted if you

·9n the civilian; a man might .prefer to ·spend his' l:eave offered him He would -regard it as charity. in -camp, but yoi.1 wou-ld not give him ::. -a chance of · : 2411. You. have come acros· who have come .

obtaining whisky ?-If a n1an -wants whisky, let ,.hin1 . there in-> the circumstances w]lich ·you have detailed; go to town to get it. . / _ - _, _ would men who got into that state interfere with' the"

_ 2400. The civilian can ')lave it he lives; gene:ral efficiency of t1;te Fo:r:ces.?-yes, men cannot lie are prepared to -put a ·on the out a·t _!light !lfter drinking, especially on cold ·nights, ,

that you do not put on the civihmr?-'-I do not thmk without ·it doing them-- harm. - We -have caJ;ried men I am. doing that. If a man. is ) nclined to take his in put them to:.n.ed,- and -v.ery ·often those, men who leave -In camp, he knows that If he does so <;an only hav-e- had to 'be .(lealt with in that way am not very . " -get beer at the .wet canteen if. one is esta?lished. . · long away before you find them_ ba.ck- agaii1 from the

2401. In saymg to_the soldwr that he 1s not to have , Fr.ont. - -

the of whisky : in camp,. is· 2412 ... Inju.red ?-::-Generally invalided.

pract;wally hl-E: ·home; while all?wing_- the ClVlhan . to 2413. Are there cases ·- of men who ,_you -.:.k:now were buy .1t near ln.s . you tpat _YOU are- not addicted drink here who have · O'One to the Front

placmg on the s?ld;ter Is not apd -come back as returxred have gone

O!l the .-I lt Is a restrictwn away !rom Austr_alia but I -do no.t think that they have

on the soldwr to. a cf)rtam, extent.- . 1

_ really· got to the - - .

240.2._,9ne .whiCh you not to. on You know: fr-om your own·observatwn that they

th? _cn_ nnan; would you advocate- .the prohlb1t10n of have ·-not been -injurea ?--I believe that that is so. I _ for th? .whole of the _people?-Y the pro- know one fellow who· was in camp· here fOr at least

hibitwn of spints. . forirteer;. months; and was· drinlfing _ _ about the

town.- We had a considerable amount .of -trouble w'ith

Horace IJtlCkstone, - _ and

examined :-__

_ _him. · H_ e seemed to be s!}'ong healthy enough, 'Qut he was put out

2403---4. By the Chairman.--Have you· ·ha..d_ experience_ among soldiers as a- worker -for the -Y.M.C.A. .

- 2415. For alcoholism.?-! could not say, but I be­ lieve that was the real · reason. was another man

from whom I _·knew well. I think that

2405. Are you ot- opinion that drink has int·erfer-ed . .p.e- was dismissed for alcoholism. with the efficiency or morale- of the. seldier.s be- . .. 2416: 'How- long was he in .camp ?-I think

lieve it has. I know-- a :vho was dis- ·"that he was .in camp for about six months. Our

missed for being off duty into;xicated. He was ·rolling people -the people at _ the Lounge had·_a- 1ot of about Hobart. He ·was one of the best sergeants-major hother with _him. _One-· of our secretaries has made in the State. Anotller sergeant from Claremont, one the · tnat the, Army leads- men to _become.

- of the finest chaps you 'could . meet, and O__!le who the dru:Qka:udsl apd t4en chas no more time for them. others said was the _ bE?st instructor they haa at .Clare-. ' · 2417. The Army leaves it 'to enterprise to

mont, was intoxicated on -a 'street corner. , I too.k him look after them-?-'--That was the .of our

to .the station -and ''had a good talk _ with him. I to_ld ' secretaries· made. ' . '_

h!m that if he got intoxicated he would not have -- -2418. By/ senator Roi\-V tnany men make U:se

influence over the men. He · used to come to the- of your institutimi in a , Wxek ?....,-The number fluctuates. , Y.M_ ,C.A., and we tried to keep him there as long .· When -our place was · the only one in Hobart "for as we could,- so that he would not get into tlie ,:hotels. soldiers and returned soldiers we -u,sed to have hundreds ' Afterwards he went to ·:M:aribyrnong, in.. Victoria,- and of them _ coming in.- -Last month -we had _.35,0 staying I believe he went away to the Front.-=- When I was · at the ·hostel: - That is number who slept there.

looking after the hostel eonnected . with the Y.M.C.A., Twice many wo'l.lld c'ome in-to the rooms,_ beca1,1se lads

used to go round the town about midnight on -Satur:: .whose homes- are in town come there and play billiJ:t.rds

day night to see 5f there were .any soldiets lying about or different games. - - .

the streets. l.h-ave brought in as manJ .as four of t4em 2419. -There would 700 or 800 in your

who were intoxicated. That is not -the gen-eral rule, rooms in a month ?-Yes. · :. however, .and it is - iiot tne- :rule -at pr-esen.t. The ;men 2420. -: ariy portion of thos_ e

are v_ ery eober in camp now, more .sober tlian they were go to hotels fair number would. .

...., some _time back. We have not had nea!' ly the same 2421. Would half of them do .. so ?-;.-I belieye so.

trouble that we had twelve months ago. · · 2422.-. That is not to say that they would 'get intoxi-

2406 .. There are not so many in cam-p now?-That cated'?-No. · __

1s so. _ _ 2:423. Would some of those· who get leave and COJD.e

- .2407. Would the smaller number of cases' be due to tqwn not go to your building ?___:.Very few. The

the fttet that the _numbers in camp_ are smaller, or r_najority;- of them go the!e. are invited -to do

would it be because the men are more sober ?-I think so at Claremont. ·

the men_ more sober. - - 2424. -Some of them might get idea. that when you

. ' 2408. How ·mariy beds _ have you in the hostel?- have therii at your you might preach to them?

About' fo.rty, but we have put· up as many as fifty- -We might give them a le"cture occasionally, but we five men. They come in late on Saturday night, and do mo.st· of that by perso:[lal talk if· we possibly ·can. they will not go away . . We give them a free supper, · -2425. -I suppos_e _that. many of them in conversation :a bed for 6d., and breakfast for 6d. They_ lie- down with yo_ u tell you their troubles?-Yes.

569

. . .

Do any them complain that civilians watch reports in the papers ;Of different returned ·soldiers

them If go mto hotels- and chase aroulid · being 'fined, but I do not kno-\.v of any case . of ·that

to get them to "shout" for tliem ?---I have heard of - kind. .

Soine o£ them have told me. !lfter leave- - 2440. With your knowledge of Hobart, do you know

night; when_ they get back .to camp It IS a trouble for of the existence ))f any houses of ill-fame or br.othels them to get ta sleep because of others who are intoxi- of that nature ?---No. cated. · - · · · -

2427 .. Have any of .them told you that the· civilian - 2441. By Sen.ator ,Gratd.-D? you keep a of

population has been kind to-them and " slhouted" for . the number of Int_oxlCated soldiers who are picked Up them ?-.......I have ·never heard any of them mention that. during the week V often· soldiers have asked us to locli" up 2442. Could you say how many . soldiers have been

then. deferred. pay for them, fearing that they might picked- up arid taken- to -the building in a state of lose 1t. . . · intoxication ?"'-No. Very often other soldiel!s bring

?428. From whftt you have ·seen:- dq you think that their intoxicated .copJ.rade along, and we let him !'emain generally tends bringing inefficiency - there until he gets well enough to go down to ·the

In our Forces ?-I belie:ve it has. 0£ course I am a station and train.

to.tal abstainer. I ·traveiled £or the N 2443 . . Could y.pu give the Committfje approximately

Life . eompany four years, and my- . of .men_ who have. been taken to your build­

observahons have. shown me· tha,t drink has a bad Ing 11). those Circumstances since the war began ?--:-:-No. on oomrr;mnity genei·ally: - . · At ope time three men out of twenty in the building

- Do you know whethei;- the early closing .of were intoxicated.: Although we did all -we could to

hotels has been_ of advantage ?-$o far as l _can ob- ' discourage them, they got intoxicated. At other times, se:rve, it J!as bee!_! a big impr.ovement. - . although we have had seventy-five men there, there

2430. · Would you favour an- aiiti-" shouting" .law t would only be aboui two the worse for liquor. Some -Yes. - - Saturday nights we might have :fifty men in, and n

2431; W -9uld you go so far ·as to favour prohibition? - one of them would be intoxicated. -Yes. . . . 2444. Would you have cases of intoxication

you beheve that It the com- in twelve months ?-Yes; we would have easily twepty-

mumty to a better effort In th1s war?-Yes. :five to- thirty eases. · -

2433. By Colonel Rowell.-Have you in · . · . - . . · ·

with the Y.M .. C . .A:., what they an Army kmd qf drmk ,do they take whwh makes

Counml ?-W e_liave a F_ Ield Service Executive. ?-S.ome of them tell _me that

2434. Is it · a ciyilian ?_:_Yes, with one or , Ip.IX drmks, but I . expect that they mostly

two soldiers on it. . "" shandws. I do not know much about ..

. · Do they work independently oi the Y.M.C.A. - I know theu effecth and. I have ·seen men vomlting Army · · - _ about the and playmg up generally.

Do you get reports from men 2·446. You mentioned that yo?_ had t-ak£5n charge of

. varwus parts- of the wo:;-ld as tg:- what is going deferred pay for _ returned soldiers; do you do much . Yes: . - in that line ?-Not now. We used to do a fair amount

. · 2437 .. In d.o you :find many complaints it,. but the Red hostel gets of the re­

In regard to drmkmg habits ?--:-One of our ·secretaries turned men now, and we deal mostly With men who '_Vrote concerning the oehaviour of the · men at Durban. are -going abroad. . The boat was there four or :five days and the hotels 2447. How :many of them have forgotten to return we.re closed all that time. There.. V:ere -23,000 men !or their deposits ?-None of them;' but some of them gomg through, and he said that their behaviour was have forgotten to call back for hats, coats, and so SOl!lething splendid. He attributed their good con- forth, that they have left in b:uilding. One re­ duct to the fact that- the hotels were closed. He is turned man, who was partly Intoxwated, left a hat · now back in Tasmapia, and he told me recently that _ 17s. Next day when saw him I told

when he called at-Fremantle the hotels were open, and h1m that hat was there, and he sa1d that he thought 40 per cent. of the men returned to the vessels intoxi- he has lost 1t at cated, also out of 1,000 men on one boat ninety Is it a fact that th.e are . entitled to

were left belund. One of our secretaries writing said come m from camp and get mtoxwatmg .dnnk at tem­ drink was a. source of tro1;1.ble among the soldiers perance bars attached to ?-=-I believe so .. I _believe

m ;France, so far I .can remember, the reports- they come under headmg of travellers. .

we have receiVed have nothmg to say as to how drink 244.9. Is the ex1stence of these bars .re- ,

affects the · soldiers. A considerable number of re- spolls1ble for many of the cases of mtoxwatlng whwh turned men that it is a trouble in England. One been _carried into your seen

returned ma!_L IS ,prepared to .say that quite a lot oi Y?ung soldiers go ou.t of_.the buildmg at, 6 o clock at young ?haps who never· drank before they went away · night and come .back 1ntoxicated before o c1ock. They now drmk fairly heavily. _ - must get the drmk the hotels.

2438 Where did th t. t th h b'.t . h 2450. Do you know If there are any sly-grog shops

_. , . ey rae . a 1, m t e in Hobart?-No.

camps or while on leave m London w · hat I D -d h' · h d' · f · . _- . . · · . vl. o vou o anyt mg Ill t e uection o trying can gather It would be while they were on leave · - " · L. · . ' . . In to . :find employment for returned soldiers the ondon. I have seen young sold1ers 1rr Hobart leave · · · · ' · · . · Returned Soldiers' AssoCiatiOn keep a record and do our building at 6 o'clock at nrght and return be · fore · · · · , · . . · · . a:ll they can to get theu members mto different classes 8 o clock qu1te mtoxwated. I have had to put them f "f"li' h· d · ·- f . · b f to bed w· h T h 1<1 b f . t . . d ld . . o work. v.v e ave one It or quite a num er o men. · e a\e e num. ers ·O In ox1cate so _Iers , We have got them work in the Post Office and have there and have let them he 'on our. couches and ll · ' ' .· , · .. - a filled up theu forms and recommended them. sorts of things. · - · 2452. Do you know If any returned men have, on 2439. 13y - Senator Lt.-Colonel you_ account of drink, l9st positions thus secured for know ·of a?y case of a !'eturned soldier who, whpe -I do not know of any myself. They tell me at the the of drmk, 4ad induced to go Post Office that a lot of th.e returned men get very mto a of Ill-fame _and remain until lie has diss·atisfied with their positions, but they have never spent all his ?-No. Of I have seen said that drinking is the cause of it. F.1459- 8

114

2453. By Senator Bu-zacott.--Have vou taken into consideration the effect prohibition have on the apl?le-growing apd hop-gi·owing -industry o£ Tasmania? -I have- asked orchardists whether the land which is growing hops will grow other stuff, and they have said yes. Sm11e of the best land we have is used for growing hops, and as apples are very dear in ,Hobart when -they are being exported, I consider t y should pe

grown instead of hops. The maj.ority- of the people in Tasmania can get a living easily enough, and a good living, in other w:ays ·without going into a trade which is helping to' destroy men's lives and homes, as I

believe the d-rink trade is doing. -

2454. If the cider industry _"'Vas abolished do you think it ·would have very little effect on the apple­ growing industry?-I do not think there are very many apples used in Tasmania for that industry. __:_

2455. Do you think that prohibition could be. brought ;vithin twelve months without -dislocating the

mdustnes- of the country and bringing about a state of chaos ?--If the Government _find that people are op­ pressed through- abolishing these things it is their place to come in and help them out of their difficulties. have found among drinking people generally that

they are not fit for their work in the morning. I have worked in mines with men who . drink heavily. _ 2456. Do you think that prohibition could be brought · about wit]lin twelve months without dislocating all in- dustries ?-I believe it could. -

2457. Without causing any, hardship among the general population ?-I believe so. -

2458. Are you in favour of giving compensation t.o any ·one vvho would be deprived ·of his business?-Yes, but that- would be a matter for Parliament to de'al with. · --

245,9. You have not that phase- of the question consideration ?-No. _

2460. Have you an..y other suggestions to, o:ffer where­ by the evils which you say h'ave -been brought about by strong d11ink could be mitigated ?-I think the only way is national prohibition. 1-

Isabelle :.Moore Robinson, Principal :Niatron

· of the No. 9 Australian Genei·al I-{ospital, Rose- neath, -iWorn and examined:- 2461.-2. By Chairman.-In your hospital do you deal with and soldiers ?-Mostly with

returned soldiers. OccasiOnally we have. men there who are too ill to be retained in the field hospital at Clare-- mont Camp, but -vve do not have a great number of

those _cases; _ -

2463. Would any of those taken to your hospital · be taken there because of the effect of drink ?-One man was brought there {or an operation. He suffei·ed from the effects alcohol while he was there. ·

Would that remark apply to the returned

soldiers?-We had one case -of delirium tremens among returned soldiers. _ ·

is more discharge on their From these facts

I form my Q)pinion drink is bad for them. · 2-468. You are speaking not merely of those who are visibly under the effects of drink, _but also of many who ·have been drinking moderately ?-There are not many men there wh01n I could class· as drunkards, but ·there are a good many hard drinkers who have a night out when they go into to:wn. There are ve:r:y few total abstainers, but there are a ,good many men whom I would call 'moderate drinkers, and there are a good many hard dri:rikers. '

2469. Jtnd because of that you say their recovery is retarded?-Yes.

- 2469A. By Senator ColoneL Rowell.:-Have you- had· any experience before this war started_?-No. 2470. From your observations in --general

are feeling very miserab_le, and they have_long·, trying illnesses. For months they been at high nervous

tension. They have suffered under trying circumsta;nces. - They appreciate comradeship, and when they go into town they say " Come and have- a drink," and they have one or two. When they have come back I have

talked to them and tried to persuade them how foolish it is. They very often say, "Matron, I started off,

and there it was." That happens again and again. I try to keep in touch with my men as closely as I

can. They tell me over and :Over that it is s

much from companionship as anything else that they _ started dl'.inking. · /

2471. Have you had any cases of men suffering from shelL shock ?-Yes.. • _

. 2472. I suppose that the effect of liquor' in any

would -be injurious in those cases ma:q

was -taken out of a railway train absolutely helpless liqum·. He had· to 'be carried 11-P- to the hospital

on an orderly's back. lie was not really conscious until some hours later at night. He_ told :rpe that_he had not had more than three or four drinks. 24 73. Was that on the first day that fire arrived from the Front ?-No, he was not alwwed leave for some. time. It was one of the first occasions on ·which he had leave to go into

2474. By $enator Grant.-Are there many private -bars attached to the hotels in Hobart ?-I do not know. ,The inen tell' me that they can ·as much drink -as

they like in the soft-drink ba.rs. They laugh at the idea of not being able to get as much as they like.

They say that there · is more drinking after 6 o'clock in the temperance bars than at any other time. -They tell me that not only t_hey, but any one else, · can get what they like after 6- o'clock; they say that other.s have been drinking with them. _

_ 2465: How long have you ' been at the 'VY'hen It first opened, in August, 1915, I was there for s1x months. I have been there , for eight

mon_ths, but ever smce men have been returning from the Fr.ont I have visited the once a week.

2466. 'How many men have gone through your hands ?___,.I ' could not give the number, but there are always about sixty-four cases in the hospital. It is

2475. What is your opip.ion about the early closing of .it did -lessen ·drinking it would be a

thrng. I have seen a good many drunli:en men

about the streets at night since the hotels were closed early.

generally pretty full. _

. 2467. -Hav.e the drinking habits of any of the men WIth y,our work?-Yes, in several instances

when men have suffered from the effects of drink. It is our opinio:a out there that the wounds of men who drink suffer more· or less. This is my opin1ou, though it is not always that of 'medical officers. When men have been

away at their pulse-rate is raiseCl in the morning. They are more or less shaky and off coloi.u, and there

2476. The closing .of hotels at night has not

materia1ly reduced the number of men who are a bit unsteady after 6 o'clock ?-I have 1io record of jt, even in my mind. All I can ,say is that I have frequently noticed' men intoxicated in the streets after 6 o'clock.

2477. Do you provide any liq110r the hospital £or medicinal purposes?-Yes. Brandy is us-ed in very small quantities for men whoni the-medical officer con­ siders require it, ·but we have only used about' two pints of brandy in the last six months. It is given out

5'f 1'-

'-

115

in teaspo.qn:- doses as a medicine. If men off their - 248'6. How many cases of that kind would there

appetite they generally tried with tonics, and if , be per 'week half of the, men who have been ­

they are still not taking their food very well we often - into to'Yn. They do not care for their morning 1soup give them a glass, of stout just before their meal. We 1-1 o'clock, and they will not eat their dinner too. miglit have eight or nine out of si4ty _on that. As well unti-l they feel all right again. ' - -

as they are::::taking their food welr the stout is 248'7. Do you not think that the effect of men oom-:

stopped. ing -home 1·epeatedly in that . condition must necessarily

2478. Do ybu think 'it would be a -good thing if the be injurious to their general welfare ?-I ·should think_ practice knbwn as "shouting" was legally it would on the men I know.

-I can only form my opinion from what the men tell 2488. If that is so, having regard to the fact me. - They say that the most of their drinking is we are at war and require to put our best efforts -for.,.

due to the habit of "shouting," and that very few of ward, would you be in favour of the tota:l prohibition them care to have more_ thar1 one or two glasses. Of of the sale of beers and spirits during the currency course there are a certain number of men who are of the war?-Yes. I hate to see the men not doing

drunkards and who will alw:ays drink, but .the' others their best. It-makes me sorry to---=see them so knocked say that it, is largely due _ to• " shouting " among them- over. All the same, I think it is rather against my selves "shouting" by civilians. nature to take away -a man's liberty in that way, -

2479. Do you know of any soldiers who have been though ,I do ,not consider that men shquld be able to prevented from- going to the Front on account of the' use their liberty to the detriment of the 'welfare of the excessive use of beers or spirits ?-One man was sent nation, especia]ly at this juncture. -tQ us for an operation, and when his wound was almost 2489. But you know. that the smoking of-opium has healed he broke leave. When he was brought back , been prohibited on account of its injurious effe,cts ?-it was semi that he had been drinking very heavily. -_ Yes. -

Later o:ri he broke leave again, and when he was sent 2490. ·If j·ou are-,satisfie

healed, the camp -sister told me that he broke leave :- the worse for the adventure, do you not think that, from there and that he had delirium tremens. I know_ owing to the existence .of the. war, it would be a wise he -was discharged. /Whether . it was becaUJse o{ thing, even if it did interfere with liberty to a certain

his habits or not I could not tell I - extent, to prohibit the importation, manufacture, and _

should think probably it was. - sale of drink?-Yes, more strongly because it would

2480. Do you know of any other cases which in your ii1terfere with the liberty of the men who have not opinion were prevented from going abroad on -account , gone to the Front and never ·will go. I do not see of excessive drinking'?-Not of my own knowledge. .. -why they should have perfect liberty to dririk and do -2481. You know of one case which might be_ regarded . they like., It would he a-.good thing if they

as- fairly traceable .to the immoder?-te ,use of were up. I d? not thmk any

Yes it was probably due to that. - _ " the to use h1s OI

' · . . . . , - hberty to h1s own detl'lment or that of the natwn .

. 2.482. e:xce:snre use of /dnnk - 2491.. Do .know any men

mans .effiCiency .-If a man has had a placed In ,p6sitwns by the varwus organizatwns m

bout or a. out he does not feel up to concert , Hob,art and have subsequently lost those positions

next morn:ng, he not well.. 1\!(en. have - on account of excessive drinking ?-'-I cannot say that

s.aid to me that 1t does against ef!iCienc;r, I know that they have actuaJ :v lost positions from that

that when had had a out they certamly dld cause, but they have lost cpo3itions, and I have seen I

the :vork on_J;he next mormngi but they unfitted, them about the pretty dnthk. Whether they

for 1t, a:f].d they were taken out on a route march lost their positions for that reason I could not tell

they were quite pumped out. _

· 2483. Would the e:fficiencv of a man who had taken a glass. or two be impaired in .any way?-I do not -know. I ,should not suppose it would be; , _

-It would only be the men who were drinking

to who would express the opinion that they were pumped- out ?-They -told me they had a night out. That means the man who is able to get into

camp and is- not hauled up next morning. So long as a man is ahle to get through the guard it does not

matter; he is not drunk in a military sense so long ws he can the -guard and get through and sleep

. it off. IIe may feel shaky and niiserable next morning, but he does not parade himself before the medical · officer. - · / , ·

2485. If he could get a pick-me-up in the morning would it straighten him up ?-I st'tppose· it would, but it would not make him too good. I am not speaking from person-al experience. I take the pulse of every !Han in the hospital in the morning, and I notice that

if men have been having a in town they look .

bleary-eyed and have pale faces, and they do not look too cheerful. You can smell their breath. When I see men in those circumstances I form the opin-ion that __ they have had a night out; and when I question them they say, "The same old thing." .Those men's pulses .r-r-e raised and their hands. are very .often shaky. You very frequently find them lymg down- 1n the morn­

ing, and probably they will not take their dinrfer too well.

you. - 2492. If by prohibition the businesses of those con­ cerned in the drink traffic were destroyed, would you be in favour of giving ·them compensation ?-No. They do ··not gi__vQ any compensation to the men who have spent their all.

2493. You would be against compensation?-Yes. I know a g.ood many of the men who have ·come back and have spent all their deferred pay in drink. The publicans have got that money, and they do not giYe

any compensation to the men . .

2494. By Senator Gtty.-Evidently you have to some extent the eonfidence of the men in the hospital?-Yes. They chat with me. They know pretty well what I intended to say here.

2495. Do they tell -you that civilians "shout" for them?-- Yes. When five or six of our boys go into

town they drop into a J?Ublic house passing up from the station, and probably one and then another will " shout," so it goes on, and it is very likely that

those who have wives to go to do not reach their homes. Sometimes they ring 1ne up at the hospital, a wife or a sweetheart, and all I can say is, "They have gone into town on leave."

-. 2496. Probably the " shouting" takes- place among themselves ?-To a large extent it does, though I have in mind the case of one boy 'Yho came home on the train one night and made a great exhibition of _ him­ self. He had to be pulled out of the carriage and

/

carried up to the hospital. When they are like that r them until later in the day, and then ask 'them

to come to' m.y room, where I can have a chat with

them, If they are to be paraded before the doctor· it means a crime -on t.lteir .sheet, and as_ a good many of these men have been away_ for two or three years and have not had a crime entered. on their sheets; I am always · very. loath to make a start by criming

2511. We want your ..op1n1on -just now. I .

you :Irnow that t4_ere some men _who _ 2512. :Erom your own personal there are

men in the .A.rmy who drink?--;--Yes __. 2513. Would I be .. in tsaying that there- are

poor fellows who have been wounded, who, from

your own personal knowledge, took a glass of beer and whisky_ now and again ?-;Certainly. · __. , . -

them directly· they have _ come home. If they will -- proiD:iSe IDE:} that they will be a little more careful

in future r-pass over their perhaps -once 'or

twice, or even three times. However, this --par...ticular lad said, ·" I cannot tell you how a·shamed I am; I am ashamed to loek you in ·the eye. I kn.ow what a · dis-

2514. Would ;you think that men would-recover from their womids qlJ.ickly . if they did- not drink?-I am not in a position to express an opinion upon that '

graceful exhibition I made of myself." He' never

transgressed again, and Captain Newland told me that he was one of the very best boys ·he had at tlie Front. That lad's - case was through civilians and friends " shouting ;, Jor him. · ,

2497. ¥ ou have had only one _of delir-ium

- that w.as the case-of a returned s,oldier.

2498: By Senator Colonel Rowell.-Do you :find tli1:1-t it is . the older men rather than the younger .men. who take this liquor think it is very mu·ch of a .muck

ness. Some of the older nien are -confirmed drunkards, and do• not S.ee:in to have any p( 3

they went away.

CharleG Pouls . on, . · of Soyther:n

Tasrnaman Branch of the Tasmanian ·LICensed Vic;tuallers' Association, sworn and 2499. By the Chairman.-What is your cajling?-I am a .recognised traveller for the Derwe:p.t Brewery.

2500-1. The objects of this Committee.. have been broug}:lt before the licensed victuallers?-Yes. ' 2502. I Hnderstand that thE( victuallers prefer

to give any evidence that they wish to tender in Mel­ bourne or Adelaide. Is that so ?-I do not know. 2503. Do you travel about the State?-Yes. 2504. Do you have a good opportunity of meetipg soldiers and of being associated as a citizen with the

point. . - _

2515. Do you think that drink w.ould have the effect of retarding the recovery of a who has bee:n·­

wounded ?-I think it accelerates the recove:ry of some. 2516 . . Do you . know of your own personal know­ ledge whether it,has aace1erated-their recovery.?-Yes.-- · 2517. You know of ,some n1en who have been wounded whose recovery has been accelerated because they are - not r-I do not know it personally, but it

has been told to me. 2518. said jusit now that you knew personally

that it accelerated the -recovery of some ?-:-I did not - mean to _ say so. · , _ -

2519. You do not know of your own personal know-_ledge of any person whose recovery has been accelerated oecaUJse been a moderate drinker or any pers<;>n who would not have recovered so quickly if he h-ad

been a· total abstainer ?-I do not know of any, from own personal knowledge. -

2520. Do you -_know of your own personal know­ ledge- any persons whose recovery has been retarded they have been to drink ?-No. - ·

-:2521. The11, front your own pereond_ knowledge you do not" think that soldiers going to the Front or soldiers who a_!e returni!lg would be benefited by the total pr:ohibition of ·drink during the I certainly db

not think so. · -

.. 1\rot even a percentage of themJ-No.

' rnan does not want to drink the p1:1.blican does not ask _ hi+U to drink. ·

2523. By Se1iatm· Grant.--=-How many breweries are there in TasmaniaX--=Three in Hobart ana one in Laun-

A.I.F. in Tasmania ?-Yes. ' · R d · ceston. 2505. ave you any i ea as to whether or not the drinking habits of thB people have interfered with the 2524. What is, 't,he diifur,ence a. hotel and efficiency or morale ef the .soldiei's or prevented the a pub11c holJ.se of a hotel· pays 5s. - pe0ple of Tasmania from making a supreme effort in for his l.kence1 than the licensee pubhc p_ aY_s. war?-Of course you know exactly position I supp?se that tJ!e h.9telkas to pto:r1_de a certam amount I amin. I do not think that they have. The returned o.f but all _ the same the public house .soldiers say,_" Why should a man g,o .to the ·Front, when - can take'lll .boardet s. . he is treated as he is on his return?" - 2525. -Is 1t necessary for a pubhc house to provjde 2506. We have heard the evidence oi returiled accommodation for boarders soldiers. Vj e w:ant _ your opinion as I am con- - .. Apart from th_ e extra..licence paid by the hotel­ drmk does not affect- a man JOining up keeper; ain I correct in ·saying that the hotel must time. . _ provide accommodation for boarders and the public 2·507. I suppose you know that the number of men hous{3 need not do so, and that that-is the difference been rejected .because are too fond of ?eer and between two?"'--That is s.o. Xt is not exactly an · · whus.ky ?--That Will occur 1n walk of hfe j you _ extra licensing fee, it is an inspection· fee. hotel­may get too fond of or else. . keeper pays same fee· for his licence as_ the p-ublic We are deahng With drmk particularly, and house keeper pays. . is an -injustice. we want to know your, personal kno:vledge; have a 2527. How nrany hotels are- there ' in Robart ?-1 number been turned, down because of the caimot say fmm memory. . a'here are of :QUblic of alcoholism on- them ?-Not to - my personal know- hou.ses that have accommodation for boarders but do ledge. . . . _ not· apply for hotel licensing. _, 2509. From person:al you know · _ • . _ • . __ whether the drmking habits of t4e soldiers or of a , 2528. Do they _merely sell drmks .-No. _They also portion of them have interfered with the drilling or accommodate boarders, . but they are not licensed as training- of the men at a · camp?-=-I do not know any- hot_els. thing about that. , · 2529. IS it mererly a matter of the licence ?---Before . · 2510. Do you know from your own personal know.. ou can get a hotel licence -you have to sati fy the ledge whether drink ha's interfered with the recovery licensing bench that you have so many rooms. If the of ·men in the hospitals ?-No. I .should say that that public :Q.ouse keeper the accommodatior+, he can put a _medical business. up people -if he chooses to do so.

.D I

2530. A man may secure a licence for a public house, _o£ those who live ab.out the streets, who would have although he :kas accommodation for - six· drinks rumiing. I have had a great deal of

That is· so. - perie:b.ce in Hobatt in regard to and I do not see

_ 2531. How long have you been about Hobart_?-All many men who wiil have six running._ They

. my.life. · · - · · - - · will take or cigarettes to -break the monotony.

2532: What Were the hotel prior to the out- __ But jt is asking men to have too much to a.sk them

bre_ ak ? a.m-:- unt'i} p-,m. to have so many drinks running.

2533. What are the hours now ?--=From 6 a.m. to 6 - 25.50. r am assuming that they might feel inclined p.m. · to have those six drinks?-Th<3 licensed victualler

·2534. Was· this ·reduction in the working hours wotlld· be quite jnsti:fied in supplying theni. brought ahout in one step, or did _they have several - -

_at it the :first case_ the clo'sing hot1r was re- So the fact

duced to 10 o'clock, and then it i:Vas teduced. to 6 o'clock. hotels aNi closed o'clock, through the medium of 2535. ls there much drunkenness in I-Iobart ?-You the tmnperance bEti.ts attached to hotels, travellets who might see a . w-hich would exist whether there are a little thirf:rty, say half-a-d.?zen - o£ them, can

w_ ere ·p'tlblic hpuses or not, It_ exists _ in the country, "shout'' .. all rou11

· each ?-No traveller can b@ in a te;mperance where they make theil' own wine. . ·

2536. Has the an1ount o£ drttnkenness been decreased bar_. by the 'closing of hotels at 6 o'c-locld-I should. say 2-552. Then how do get liquor after 6

o ?---They go into the main bar or into the parlor. 8 ·25S7. You ·do not know rnlich-?-I am not in_ The d1•ink is not served in the temperance oth

JOU otlt_put . . It-is only mJ .persona! opi·nion. traveller is not supposed to be 1serveq the temperance In the 1same wfl;y that you might form ;y;our - bar. Under the law as it stands, 1£ I am in a tern­

opinion that were drunken men about when the perance bar and a traveller comes. in, 1 am liable to

closed at 11.30, you form tlie ophiion a penalty -the publican seryes him_ with ll.q11or in

ai'e less now when the hotels are closed at 6 that bar. The traveller is entitled to be in the

r should say so. . .bar- proper.

2539. Are -there temperance bars attacli.ed to almost 2553. Travellers or soldiers from the canip. are_ sup-" eve:r:y· public hbUSe and. hotel in Robart?-I think that posed to get ,strong liquor in hotels in- the or_ dinary the greflter ni.ajority of them have temperance bars._ : bar or in parlors, but not ju the tethperance bar?-254J) . . And under the Ac_t- a pers_ on who That is so.

travels seven J?liles is entitled _to get drink as 2554. Then they may have a number ·ot' drinks on

he can clll'I:Y ip_wardJy ol' outwardly interpreta- . end without . any violatjon o£ the provision which per­ tion of the Act is that the ti•aveller is only e ntitled t9 n'lits travellers to get drink ?._._,.I am certain about a certain quantity. - - , _ - it, but I think they are entitled to have whatever they

2541. Do I understand to say that the traveller require. .

who arrives in-Robart from heyon_ d a distance o£ seven - -- 2555. you i1 1 .favour ·of the 6 o'clock closing of miles _is only e:J?.titled to get a c_ertain quantity hotels ?.......:No. · -

shoulq· ,say- so. He can go from. one hotel to the other. 2oo6. You would prefer to revert to the later-hour That is my interj_:rretation of the Act. . . of 10 p.m. or 11.30 p.1i1. reasonable hour would

2542. Have-you looked at the Act carefully ?-,-No. 10 o'clock. - Many bttsi11ess men do not· allmv their 2543. Would you be sp.rprised to Jearp, tp.at _accord- emplovees to drink during btts'iness hours, they ing to the Act a person can_ have as. much drink as he take home,_ and pei·haps encourage their wives and requires after 6 __ o'clock if into Hobart and children and others to dtink. ·

is a tr:aveller ?_:I do not think that there is a 2557. /Do voli .£ear that the early closing. of hotels

able publican wJ:w would supply a man with · as much has the effect of inducing mel'1 to take drink- horoe, drink lis he requires time after time. - and-that their· wives and families will acquire the habit

2544. A man ca'Q only get a-d:dnk -or 1 would of drinldi1g, and thereby dril1lt so much that nothing not- slly that, biU he w61-1ld not have di·itik 11ftet drink. will be left for the men ?-I am sure of it, but not He is entitled to have a Q.e1.>tain amount, whatevet• the from personal experience. publican thil)ks is a fair thing for him. / · 2558. Do you know - of any cases where tJiat has

2545. Y()u have heard of the "shouting" occurted 1 since the early closing of in

· Yes. - . -I have heard o£ lots of cases .

. Suppose six travellers come into Hobart after 2559. But you do not know of any· froh1 your own

·6 o'clock and -commence operations by one of them personal ·· , -

treating the others; would it no_ t be · for 2560. Well-to-do people stock their cellars with beer,

the 'Others to trent themselves all round ?-Certalnly wines and spirits ?-That goes without saying. , not. Do you mean to tell me tha_ t i£ I went to an Do you . think there is any when it is

hotel and .asked have a drinK ,I would expect you available for their wives and families that they will to return it.? . . become liable t.o drink tob is quite possible.

-2547 . .I am not concerned about that, but I wish to . • 2562. Do you know that wealthy people who can find out whether the publican or the h,otelkeeper would afford to do that are, on the average, greater drinket•s be violating any portion of the existing law by accept- · than the poQter section of the out

ing payment for six rounds of drinks i£ each traveller they can all do a drink or two, most of them. "shouted" .a round.?-I do , not think he would be 2563. There seems to be a fear that if the ordinary doing so if they an or two to drink those six poor mail has a plent.ifttl S}lt>ply of beet at his home

rounds. · · both he and his family will drink to excess; if by

'They might take or two hours, closi11g the hotels at- 6 o'clock co·mpel a mari to take

according to yvay in which tJ:tey felt ?.-=-A respect- home a quantity to over the. dry do. we hot

able publiqan would refuse to \SUpply them tf he thought run the danger of getti11g the wife and family 1nto the -that they ha.d sufficient. . habit,.. of dr1nking · beer to excess do not express _

2549. Eut . he would not be violating any that opinion. . I£ you stop the working man's beer at

of the T.-iMnsing Act if he did supply them 6 o'clo_ ck his people bave to get it somehow .other

not. But . there are very few men, /unless 1t is one for him, and it is an incefitive to the wife aud

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118

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to drink as welL -It is better to keep --it ou,t of -the - complete prohibition during the currency of h ·would stir up strife and dl'scontent ome. / . . ' ,

2564. But you do not know ot any cases where w1ves all over the place. and families -·have taken to drinking -the husband's 2580. In the event of prohibition being brought beer in that way?-Not to my own personal know- about would you be in favour of giying compensation • ledge. . / - to those who are engaged in the liqu?r trade ?-Yes.

2565. But you fear -that that kind of thing may On that P

take place if the hote1s are closed at 6 o'clock and the licensed victuallers, a strong , pr.otest the r.e­ beer is brought home?-Yes. marks by Mr. Dugan concerning lady attenda?-ts 1n

2566. Is there a:uy di:ffe;ence in the n1ake-.up. the the bars in Hobart. I have mv br1ef for barmaids, as ordinary man compared with the 1nd1vidual _ they called, though I call them lady

who has a well-stocked cellar; how_ does :J,t come about or assistants in bars, but as the secretary of the L1een:sed that the .wife -and family of the man with th_ e well- Yictuallers' Association I - enter a niost emphatic pro­ stocked cellar do not acquire the habit of test against Mr. Dugan's remarks. I consider that

drinking in the same way that you are _ may thase ladies are quite as respectable, both morally and_ happen to the v•.rife and family of the workrng 111an ?- otherwise, as any of Mr.' Dugan's family or any of How do we know that they do not acquire the habit? his :flock. No licensed victualler who studies the re-2567. 'VV"'e fail to find from any evidence that the spectability_ of business would employ any -lady to wealthy people do drink. to excess ?-It h_ as been re- wait on his customers who had not the c}eanest of ported on -different occaswns that wealthy people do characteriS. - A number of these ladies who have at­

drink to excess. · tended behind bars in Hobart are and in re-

2568. Do you know any around Hobart _ who do so?- spectable positions bearing families. Ma?-y 1are I know of one case. to civil _servants, and many are marrwd to men 1n

2568A. Is that the only case you know off ?-You fairfy _nigh positions in and the

hear a lot, but I · am only talking of what I had under ing rem_ arks of a minister of religion are a gross hbel my own personal obsP-rvation. . on them. If you are going to turn licensed victuallers

2569. Are yo·u in favour of a law bemg passed out of their hotels, for tlie good-wills ,of which they which will make it a penal offence for . you to sa.y have paid certain sums of money, you should give "Come and have -a drink with me" ?-N °; because It compensation. Men have adapted themselves to .theu is impossible for any Act of Parliament to stop that , busine1 sses, their employees have also adapted themselve!s kind of th_ ing. It. is impossible to a man from to -the trade, bi'ewers and their employees -have "shouting" for a friend. · themselves to their businesses. If · you are gomg to

2570. But if it were possible to do so would you turn them out you must give them compeilJsation or be in favour of the principle- that it should be . fi-nd th-en1. employment. I do not how wowsers

a penal offence for one man to "shout" .for anoth:r? are going to fina that employment for th-em. Then -No. When I meet a man who .a of how are we to get the revenue? There is a great

surclv we can have -a drink together for fnendshlp s amount of revenue derived-from the liquor trade. The -_sake? . - farmer, the. printer, everything from

2571. You know from your A to _ z whiCh employs a, certam amount of labour

that ·a considerable amount of excessive drmklng ]S throughout the world. The hop-grm£er, /the ·barley­ brought about by the "shouting" system ?-;-I would grower, the ploughman, the shearer who the not s-ay that. If a man does not want a drmk sure!y wool out of which croth is made, the little girls who he ought to know what wants. . . _ . - make up the clothing in-the factories, all are _conc_ erned.

2572. Is it not a common practiCe m whe? Ev.ery man who is employed in trade has to be fed

three -men go into . an hotel together they In van- and clothed. Practically every trade in the whole of the ably have IS _not my :x- world- will be affected. , -

perience. Dozens of I can go mto an hotel ':"Ith . 2581. How.-- much of the Commonwealt,h revenue is ·a rnan and have one drmk and walk out. · . You might . d 1 b D derived from -the imposition of Customs l!pon say that the same thir1g applie·s in t.he cor la ar. o the imported liquors or from Excise duties on von mean to say that you are' gomg to fill yourself beers or spirits ?-I do not know. five or six cordials? Is each man to "shout " a round of . . 2582. Are you really afraid that the drop in revenue . 2573. Would there be any· difference if you had W . would be a serieus matte:r_?--Oertainly. - _ front of you well-matured whisky?-No. . , _ 2583. Is it-not a. fact that_ the Co:q1monwealth has . 257 4. Would you· 'he likely to have_ mstead of 1 unlimited powers . in .regard to taxation,. so th3:t the·' one ?-Not neoossarily. -There are occas,Ions when .you revenue from the drmk. traffic were entll'ely abohshed \ have one or tw.o or three, but there are other occaswns it could very easily secure a few milli01is from when ':vou have one and walk out. If a man a.sks sources ?-T am not 'm a -position to pass an opunon to have a drink he does not expect you to It. in regard to that matter. · . 2575. So that" in your opinion 2584. Would yolt be in favour -of giving ,.the share- custom ha1:1 not had the effect of induCing an excessive holders of breweries compeMation ?-Oertamly; any -amount of drinking do not think .so. ' one in connexion with the trade would be entitled to 2576. Therefore you would not be In favour of compensation. -- It a_ transaction. attempt being ·made by to that custom· people ha:ve put the:p· nto the tr.ade, and If -No you are o·otno· to eut off theu source of mcome they 2.57.7. Have yor/ given the question. ,of prohi_bition _ d b b • b t' d h shoul e given compensa 10n. any consideration ?-Yes, I have considere t at ques- . 2585. Would you be in :&avour of givmg. compensa- . tion pretty thoroughly. . 0 1 2578. I suppose you .are - aware drmk does to ti01i to the barmaids and barmen.- ertam y; every . 'some extent interfere w1th the effiCiency of workmen, one in the trade is entitled to ii. • _ , -citizens generally, and eYen soldiers.' if it_ is taken to Would your , excess ?-I suppose it would do so If . taken to excess, "" . . If ·· 1 ld 'f k t · 2587. And trade -union sec,retaries ?- Certainly. just like anythjng e se won I ta ? excess. . . . I d 2579. In the circumstances and 1n view of the ex- . they have lorst their positions they· are entlt e istence of the present European War, would you favour · pensation. ; ., __ -! t'J :.l..fl .. /

\

--, - .

2588. Also the owners of the land on whic the

public houses stand, if the value of -the land is, reduced by- the remov·al of the licei1see?-They are entitled to compensation. · They have probably bought _the hotels as going concerns.

2589. Is' it 'a fact that most of the hotels in Hobart are " tied " houses ?-Yes. 2590: While the hotelkeeper or Hcensee _masquerades as the owner, actually . speaking __ the owner is one of

three breweries?--Yes, in most · -

2591. Would you mind telling the how

m.any 'of the houses are tied ?-I cannot say. - In any case, I would not be at liberty-to make -a !Statement to that effect. 2592. When the -Government constructs a new rail­ way and robs the coach proprietor of the business 'he previously had, or when it builds an electric tramway and robs the bus proprietors of. their previous_ occupa­

tion, have YQU ever heard of cases where the1 se people have received compensation for the injury done to their .businesses ?-They have never sunk the same a-mount of capital in them, and from what I have seen in Tas­

mania, it is no tro_uble t.o compete with, a railway. 2593. Is it not a fact that when an electric

is cons,trueted the privately-owned buseH are. pushed

off the roadway?-Yes, but they employed the men who on 0e :bus,es to driv:e the tramca.r·s .. 2594. Then would not the men and women 'now em-.Ployed in the liquor traffic :find suitable

on. the sites now occupied by the public houses if they were transferred into stores, butchers' ·shops, or ware­ houses ?---Some of them might do so. 2595. You do know of any case in which the

Government .have compensated people ,for the los:s of employment wl_ 1en they have constructed railways or tramways ?-I d·o not know. I have not thought of it.

2596. Is it not a fact that th-e licence to sell beer arid spirits is granted_ at the discretion of the liQensing bench for a period of one year only?-Yes. 2597. Then it is within the province of the licensing bench to refuse a licence . if they are so disp,osed ?-

Yes. - _ . _ .

2598. Where, thi'm, · does the good-will come They do not refuse a licence to the house; they refuse the licence to the licensee. 2599. They: ma.y also refuse a lioe1 noe to the- house? -I do not whether that .is within their _ power.

I should th;ink it would be, but I do not know that it has never been done._ · ·

2600. -But -you know that the Act provides that the liotllnoo is issued fQr on.e· year,- ana one ye-ar only?-Yes. - -

2601. If that is so, and the bench decide not to )ssue a licence, yvhat claim has the holder of a licence to compensation ?-Eyery claim. If he has paid an in­ going he is entitled to compensatio'n if he is thrown

out at a moment's notice. 2602. But wnen the licence is granted for one year -- only, a-nd it may be refused at_ the end of that period, what claim bas the licensee, for compensation ?-He

considers that he has ·a claim if he has paid so much to go into an hotel for a certain period. 2603. But does not, he clearly understand when he pays away his for the good-will that the bench

may at the errd of the year refuse to give him the right to dispense liquor at that particular spot?-I am afraid that there are many people who take hotels yvho do not clearly understand that. .

2604. You think that they believe that so long as they conduct their businesses in a legitimate manner and according to the law, their licences will be renewed?-Yes, until .the leases have expired. . · . ·

575

2605. ·And upon that -understanding they are pre­ ' pared to take the risk of putting the money into the business?-Yes. ·

2606. By Sendtor Buzacott.'-l take it that you a moderate drinker'?-Yes. -2607. When you referred to going into hotels· dozen:S of times and having only one drink and walking out

again, I suppose you di(l pot refer to one day ?-No. 2608. As secretary of the Licensed Asso­

ciation, I take it that you have given this matter som.e consideration, seeing that you knew that this Com­ mittee was. inquiring into i!t ?-I did not give it very serious thought. I had not the slightest idea of being

1

called as a witness until Friday last. I come here as an ' ordinary ·m·an. I have not consulted any one. I have not been approached by one. My committee did · •

not know that I was coming

2(i09. I suppose that you are av,nare that when n transport is corr1ing b'ack to Australia w_i1th soldiers on board _ the hotels are closed at . different ports of

call if the soldiers are allowed to land?-Yes. 2610. It is generally admitted that it is necessary to ·protect the soldiers suffering from shell shock when they first .arrive in Australia ?-I suppose it is necessary

to do that, ·but the civilians strongly object to 'the clos-ing of the hotels. '

.. 2611. Would you be in fa-vour of dealing with

soldiers in a different -vvay to civilians ?-=-Where there · is sickness on board, certainly, but not otherwis_ e. The - Licensed Victuallers Association here h:ave approached _ the · Commandant and offered to close the hotels abso!

lutely to soldiers -on a day a transport arrived, or only to·· onen the bars. Why should the civilians

be deprived ()f their just rights. Of course.,_ the soldier is more emtitled to a drink than a civilian 'is; but if he is ill ·that is a different matter. 2612. 1Iow _ could you know· that he was ill ?-Some

would be troopships and some would be hospi'tal ships. 2613. When a soldier has been fighting for the Em­ -pire, do you think it is fair that the hotels .should' be -open to civilians when the soldiers are not allowed to

get ·a drink unless you make provision for them to get a drink somewhere else ?-I do not think ·that a soldier sholild be debarred from ha-ving a drink unless he is sick-or wounded. If he is in fairly decent health, 'he should not be debarred from having a drink.

2614. Would the soldiers take exception to the mili­ tary authorities taking over an hotel and running it under military control, at which they could obtain anSW§r that- question. My personal

oplmon 1s that I should not think that they

object. .If there wa:s an hotel for soldiers OI]ly, I think the-licensed -victuallers -would give their -assistance to that kind of thing, and give services freely. J

vvould he only too pleased to assist. ·

2615. You cannot speak on behalf of your associa- · tion; you have not consulted them not.

2616. You think that it is necessary to close hotels when troopships are comii1g through with sick soldiers on board?-I do not think the hotels should be closed, but I believe in closing the liq:uor bars. . · ' , ·

2617. Just as ·they are closed .at 6 o'clock at nighd­ y es. When many hotels close at 6 o'clock at night they do not know tha-t a transport has arrived, and they make all their arrangements for food supplies and

everything else to cater for the travelling public on the following day, yet in a quarter of an hour the order comes to close the h-otels, and travellers are kept out, and eYerything is wasted.

2618. That i 'what I wish to ascertain, whether your association had worked out what they thought would be a fair thjng in their interests ?-T understand that

/ - ,.,. ; - ""

t_here will hifQrmation tendered on that point 26q3. Oould you make _ any suggestion whereby _ we at a later date. _ , that kifi_ d of police

2619. When the war is over, we _hope to ·get a should be _strieter with -those people. Th(%y must see majority of our men back from the Front, and troop- - it golng on. ;people will stick ;you up i;_1 the streets of . ships 1\Tlll_ al'rive at some o£ .fhe potts 'Sevet,al

rang91netlts are hotels -may be more The- police take no notice ,of it, but i£ _ it was a. poor

lialf the We have approached _Oommandant buffer who was stony broke, they would take notwe of

here. We are prepared to the hotel§ against it: _ - _ _ - -

i11 trt:iiform when tr:fth.sport is in port, whether 26il5. Is sly grog-selling cartietl on to an_,y extent in

_ the men ai'e goit1g to Qt ooming {rom the war. We made H;dl,art ?-I .believe it is a myth:- I do l)Ot believe that that offet• with a view to helping the 1nilitary autho· ther·e is anythh1 , .ln_ ;Ildbart. I an1 most "' w he·a1; -0! H. ago _a in

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1

-2620. But thete i { 51 geilet.al opinion :tJatht:tr•st:-street, l:lttt I do not know of any where 0{;}mni:onwealth that we should not place .on the soldier _there is any s1y, Any _ man who says that any restri_ction 1 that is not placed on the civili&n; that there i&J does 11ot know- what he is talking libollt. if the oivilhtn ca11 di'ink, a soldiei· should be abla 2636. Have the b1'eWe1;s cmne t,o any decision as an · to g;et drink · also?== We that 9ffer because it V?'as to r>efuse - to supply_ sly grog,.shops . unfah to the civilitUl to close the hotels to him.. The do not supply theni .- are mne to supply. -_ hotels' here were closed for two on ofii occasion. · 2tW1. I:htt y6li said th'at thei'e was one cise in It is unfair to men who have paid for their licences. was not supplied by a btewery. 2821. You ai'e on.ly speaking 'on ow11- behaH The breweries supply no 6ne but Hcense.d victuallers. -when yotl say _you are in favour of _letting the 2838: SlY. · t_9 get _ their grc>g civilian have a drink and depriving the soldiei' _ot the from the licensed w1th whom they would _ 6pportunity- to get I did not say ,that. 1 s-aid have JO ?---rhat ls _ so: '_Che _ haye we made that -ofler to meet the military auth6t•l.ties. only licensed victualle1's ofi theii•- bMlrs. They s_ upply We offer.ed to meet th@m by closing hotel bars and allow- but Yictualfers. _ ' - - the citizens of the tow?- to the __ 2639. By Smu;t.lor Guy.-'[Jo if !s)ess a transport or hospital sh1p was 1t1 port. _ _ bee1• oi· a e constuned now than before 6 o'clock closing Yoi.l are not in accord with that ·J.dea o. · canJ-e into operation ? "---'=-1 do hot kr1t1W of my own • - 1 am -not in favour o£ stopping 'a sold:ler from having a - -but l: shbuld say is consumed now, drink. I believe that .after lie has been out and £-ought- beca,use the people canuot cot1sume· it. I am _ his he. is entitled- to more ·rights than the not at liberty to kno:w anything abc>t1t the inner work- ordinary civilian has. _ - _ _ ings of the<-:.breweries, -2_ G23. P _ers?nally, you 'are, not in favour of the- offer _ 2640. When yon under C!ertaih made by the hotelkeepers ?-No. · _ _ _ • citctnmtances six drihks might-be all round to 2624. · Are ·in f::tv_our of wet in camps? six you said that no .rospectable publican -Certainly. v ,ery often -it prevents . men from going Wotlld supply them ?--I sJ.wuld 110t thi_nk -he would. ?ut ·?f If a get a :ln mtmp !fur-- - ov:r a decent_neriod o£ t.ime. , Qf _ 1iig {lertam hours he will not come- into town. As it co1,1I·sl1l, there are many who could talte sl.X drmlts is at j?-resent, he _ is prohably out the1•e tor a Week or a and not -suffer but if a _man into a reSpectable­fortpight1 _ _ he comes -inrto he makes up - is not likely have six drinks right end: fbr lost aild gets an drillk - I£ lie ts a moderate drinker, how can he do it? 01 2625. W;otlld you be -J.n: fayour of 'seilin-g_ spirits or ' course, if t'hey were _pony heers, six or them would no_t beer ifi Wet can teens believe in selling mode· make· a pin_ t. - , · _ _ drinks 6iily. I would be in fav·olH' of selHng spirits- . .Then th€l might suppli a man_ with i£ Were 1;educed in strength. - _ /six drinks, provided they were not lbilg bekrs or - -2626. Are yoft !n fll;vour _ Qf a I'eduction in the am .not saying that he would not supply them. He strength o£ drinks ?-The strength o£ beer will is-Em titled to do so. I should not think tliat a publican not __ one., _ _ _ -" would not discriminate- as to wliethtilr a .marl had had the alcoholic strength of Derwent ale? enough or .. not. Any respectable publiran will do that. !at · as T know, it is. aboti.t 5 per cent. or 7- per / Of there are black sheep in every family. - 2-642. If a publican wo,uld supply six ordinary drinks, · £o you make two classes of beer would .you look upon him as not being . i2629. _r ou are_ opposed to "anti-shouting I wobld· not say -tainly. . , . 2643. You said that no respectable pubiican would We have had, by _ a reJtll1twd supply Ei. with six drink ofi end some ·of the civihans in Hobart follow re- whiskies . . tlirne4 s,olelie1'S into hotgls in the hop@ that they ,V.ill 2644. The man -who would ' dtr that y6u stty is 'not ' for them; h_ave you seen cases ?_,_f have respectable ?= I do not remember saying that. I WtJUld ' seefi H rep,<3atedly . . I about all day long. I visit -not say that the man "ras not lie<;'allse h@ ten - to _ tW·elve _hotels_ a and sometiine§ more. I would supply a customer with six drinks. I have kn6Wfi very often :lind J)e_dple _ on th@ s_oldiers who have- publicans to refuse to serve two _d1•itiks. . I ·do not chas2ng them and cadging _tfioney that the man ·is not respectable who a austoltlei· ! seen you never with six drinks.. He mig-ht -serve aix boors, find nyen aski?g: the,in tor h,aver a, drink. My experie,nce th8y would hurt -110 one, Is}hat the sbldie1' is the first to ask ·others to have a 2645_ ; That is' why J asked you the question I .. -. _ \ _ _ . _ .

-. I ' \

And _you do not say that- the man who would

- supply w}liskies is not would not

say that he riot r€itspectable. Some men can ·drink twenty whiskies. . _

2648. If he supplied twenty to a :man who

did not show of intoxic::ition, he still ee 1'e"'

is his d.uty to disctiminate as to whether

a man shows signs of intoxication or N () ..

able publican "f.'Y'ill a man- if he thinks-·_ that he is

not entitled to be served beciilise he -is in that condi.-, tioi'l. 2649. .. publican will· give a n1ar1 drink.

when he is ?=-N:o. ·

2650, Or when he is the worse for

They do not wa11t that- class of people abot1t their pre­ mises, 2651. Do you lmo'v of any in Hobart who

supply men or wo;men who worse -for

- I tlo not Jrnow that I do. ·

577

,2662. I£ it is a good thing the husband to have a­

glass o£; betn•, do -you not think it is also a good thing to sh'are it with his wife ilth not saying tha.t it is

not. 2663, Instead of it being an objection, it is rather an actvantag6 some 11eople cannot· take a thing in

moderation. - It is like tNL There is over .. fndulgep.ce in tea. It is better not to put temptations in their way. - 2664. But it is as much tP-mptation to the one as the other it is not necessary foi· the wife to go to the

hotel to get the drink; you do not put temptation in her way. Let the wife stRy at home and drink her tea. · 2665. If it is a temptation and a dangerous thing for the wife, is it not also dangerous £m· the

- --I -atn -not saying that it is a danger. Anything i-s·-

dan-gerous . l£ taken to excess. . .

26tm. tf you-take the beer into the home, the husband will htnfe coiitrol over it ancl see that it is not taken to excess ?-lie may not be home. Beer does not hurt any one if it is taken h1- moderatio11, but it. is. better ··

ot1 t of the--home, (jspecially in the ca.se of womep.. -

2652. 'rhen, whe11 - petsonB ai·rested for 'being 2667. But you say that it d.

dl'UtJk llnd ih0a.pabie, whete do they get the clrihk thilt r aro. 52 ye:ars tJf I w1ll ru11 ,a.ny ·p,rohihihonis.t rnakes them in that co:nditio11 may get it hi my 100. yai•ds and be,a,t him. _ ..

numy wa.ys. 1'hey can §end so1ne in to:J;_ a bottle. 2668, You sa:y that, if talren in modei•tttion, it will They . may. not . the · do people good; then why keep it Oti.t of -the way Of the

hotel, -but when they · !ret .Qut in the £1•esh atr _· ·. it ma _koo 'f d h.ld '£ 't · - d tl··· d t· · ··h ...., Wl e an c . 1 ren - 1 L 1s a goo . nng an . Wl eac. a lot of difference with _some · people. It sobers some them mod·eratio11; stitely the husband is mastet• of his and :ma.kes others- home,.. and can· set a good example by taking it in mode-

can take drink with-: them and drink ·it ratiotr in his home?-Thev can teach them a lot of

outside There ate different 'houses they mi-ght things, but they do not ·do what -they ate told.

enter where they sent out £oy or _beer, ·a / Many children hear obscene and it is a job

man is drunk, it cannot always be said that he has got to stop them repeating' it. -· his drink in the puh1ic 4ouses. · ' r - 2669. You were talking of "shouting"?----! do not

2654 .. Would you say that vety few of the who thitik it-is possible to coltnteract that.

are arrested in the street for drunkenness arrive at that 2670. W·ould you _ be surprised to know that we have d · · 1 b n I ' a g:ood _de'al of evicfence that comp · lain to con : itiOn m hote al's .. wou1 · . those in• their confid.ence that the civilian populatibn .2655: You sa the majol'it-tt of . them get into " h " f. h f · k k' d I 1 · d - J I l , h' k s out . or t . em out o nusta .·en . m · ness wou that state outside so. c 0 not t 111 .not be but I can take you. round Hohal't and

that any respectable publican W11l serve a man under show . you how the soldiers are drinking. It is very the inflttence of liquor. _ _ seldom yon see civilians buying drinks for them . . I ' have

- 2656. Would you be prepared to say that of "shouted''-for soldiers.1ec.ause I am a brewer's traveller. hotels or public hguses supply intoxica_ ting liquor at_ the I know the majority of soldiers in Hobart personally, temperance bars ?-How can I sa;y that. _ I have not al).d I might meet some of them in an hotel and ask gone to the hotel§ i1i the evening. - / them to have a rlrink.

2657. You have no knowledge as to that in Robart? 2671. I suppose- you know that the of

-No:· - - opium is prohibited ?-Yes, but they cannot stop it.

But, in you.!' do they so ?-1 could 2672. We carried a law _ prohibiting it. Would you

not say that they do. - compensate. all those engaged in · opitlm trade ?-=-I

2{359. You _ would not to ·express your ophtion have g?he into_ particular business, but I should

one way_ or the -other There is !llany a night not think I would. It mainly carried on by Ohifia"

wJ:ien I qo not go out once I get home. I do not know men. - -

what is 011 in the town at -night. . . . . 2673. But · the is very much the same; if

2660. 1: ou have expressed your to · Y?U a man's living, you compensate

6 c/clock closing because of the dange-r of _taking drink him would compensate any man 1£ you tlike away ·into the hornes and. placing lit before the wife .and_ his living. - ·

. children;.,. if taken in moderation, - 267 4. Eve11 if he was . dealing in opium do ·nbt -

will bting no, inj-ury _to the _parents, is there any danger · cape what it is. _If yiiu away a man's living you of its· dbing... ill ·to the i· i£ :it is 'good for the are entitled to compensate him; more especially if he is

parents, {s. it not good fijr the childten ?-=-1 helieve it is engaged in a legitimate trade. a _ gQO'd, thing for children. I hs.ve se en a man give to 2675 I h' k _ . .,, h · · . · · · b

his ch11dl'en. · . - . . · t -m you sa1u t at, m yom opmwn, a out

· Th . , h d k half thB houses in Hobart were "tied" ?= I made no 2661. en, if it is a good t ing, why woul you eep it out· of the home ?-ki -do not say that I would p.ot statement to that I said that a · prt>pOrtioil of

let the wife or family drink, but they migJ:t 'take more . them were. than a fair thing·. The husbands ate at work u,ntiL 2676. Are you a'Yare that a little. over ten years

6 o'clock at night, ancl the wives have to go to the ago, :..when the question of prohibition or-the restriction hotels and get bottles of beer for them. All over Hopart of the · dtilik traffic was ttnder consideration, it was the wives go to hotels and buy their bo ttlers of- beer in lieu of any qtwsti'Qn of compensation, the

to take hcnne for ·husbands' evening -beer. Legislature sh

means that they cannot look after their homes. The Yes, but they have .failed_ to cati'J oy.t that law. hotel· is the workingman's clnb. If hotels are open after 2877. The trade has had ten years' otice ?-Y BS, but 6 o'clock, the- matried 11Htn call go to them il.ftet tea and they have cuttailed the hours . and broken their con-his beer. tract.

t·

· .__

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122

2678. Because Parliament has n:ot allowed the hotels 2699. One for your opposition to ,prohibition to remain open from 6 o'clock in the morning till 11.30 is that, as a patriotic citizen, you· are afraid that tne re­ o'dook a .t, night during the whole -of that. ten yea.rs you venue of the country would suffer if people w_ere not claim that the contract with the hotelkeepers, who permitted to drink ?-Yes. The more you interfere agreed that they would not claim compensation if they with these kinds of things; sport, and S9 on, the more

were given ten years' notice, has been broken ?-Un- you interfere with the revenue of the If we

doubtedly the contract has be_ en broken. 1

_ could only get the wowsers- tq pay a bit, would be

2679. - When paHsing thrpugh, do you all right. , -

know that -soldiers get drink just the same as if the 2700. Who pays the revenue which comes f1;om drink, hotels were open ?-I do not. I know a member of. · the inan who drinks?-We aJl pay it; it_ is a pool. Parliament who took a man into -Parliament House - 2701. Every man who has a glass -of whisky -or and gave him a drink there. pays to 1 the reyenue pf the coup.try?-Yes,

" just as the smoker does. -

1

2680. But do · you know that bottles and bottles of 2102 . If a man does not pay so much to the revenue, ale are procured for the soldiers, and would you be surprised to know . that we have ) police evidence that the mQney remains in his pockef for somethi1!g else?- For horse racing, or something like that. · _ the men get the drink just same as if the hotels were open ?-I would be prepared to say that the police 2703. It remains in his pocket to put in:to tne revenue in some other way ?--That is so. · do not know their business. I do not believe that the 2704. The nio;ey is still there for ,the Government men get the drillk from the hotels. _ - to it in some other way; the Government could 2681. Where do they get b-ottled t!le?--I am not going tax the -totalizator or horse racing?-"'-They have taxed to say- where they get it. that as far as they can ' already. If you overtax _ the 2682. You mentioned that-breweries did not supply sporting man or the labouring man, you a_re going to bottled ale to others than licensed houses ?-That is overdo the thing altogether. There is 1 a certain limit true, except that I forgot to mention tha_t, they afso to a ma'n:s capacny to _pay taxes . . supply wine and spirit merchants. _2705. Whatjs the wowser?-The wowser class of_the 26 83. Is -it a fact that people can have a"case-of c(m1munity. · ale' sent to their private residenees ?- You can only get' 2706_ . What / do you mean by "wowser "; do it from a publican or merchant. mean the total abstainer?-N o. There is many a total 2684. Only from a · publican ?-That is so. That abst'ainer ,_.who will- go into an hotel and "shout" for applies to the whole of the breweries in Hobart. he is liberal minded. It is the p.arrow-minded in-2685. Does it apply to Latinceston ?-I do not know. d1v1dual whom we call wowse:r.s. · 2686. Would you be pre-pared- to admit that in- 2707. The pays nothing to th§ taxation- be-dulgence in alcoholic liquors to an immoderate cause of drink ?-He does nothing at all. He does -not is injurious to one's health ?-Exc-ess of anything is in- help recruiting or anything. jurious. 2708. Would it not be just as well if he had to phy 2687. Excessive indulgence in intoxicating liquor )s _for his gingerbeer ?!-_ Yes. - _Sometimes he gets 3 pe,.r injurious to the .ordinary man ?-That is what' I say. cent. of alcohol in that. -, , · Drinking tea, cocoa, coffee, or .any:thing else is-/ in- g709. In order to raise the same amount of revenue, jurious. , would if not be a good thing for -the Government to 2688. By the Chairman.-Do you think that tax gingerbeer and lemonade?-It wpuld not be a, bad sive drinking hullts a man anything' hurts ·idea. . . a man. _ , _ ' 2710. _ And tea and all those things?-Yes. Give a 2689. That is not what you are asked. Y-ou are asked f-air deal all round. ' _whether excessive drinking hurts a man ?-I s4:ould 2711. I appreciate your anxiety to raise revenue for· say that it does so. the Government. · If they do not do it in this way, 2690. Then why not say so ?-That is what I sa1d. would it not be possible, seeing Jhat thff money is still Excessive anything hurts a man. - in the· ,eountry,j to ra'ise taxes in some '" other way?-2691. By Senator G·uy.-Seeing that excessive They would to . do so. dri11king is injurious to health, ha·s the liquor trade 2712. The money would -&till be in the country from -ever thought of proposing something to minimize that which you could obtain the revenue?-Yes. effect ?-I cannot say. · - 2r1s. So , that, so far as one argument l!gainst pro- - · hibition is concerned, it does not hang abBolutely on 2692. By the- Chairman.-IIow man-y publicans are the question of the revenue of the country being ·hope·- there in There -are 96. · 2693. You used an exr)ression that a respectable lessly interfered with ?-I do not say that it would be "' - hopelessly inte_ rfered with. That is only .my personal lican would not/ supply more than a certain number of · opinion. , drinks; I t-ake it, then, that publicans ·are divided into . 2714. By Senator a1·ant.--Would you be surprised to - two classes-those who are respectable and rtho se who learn that if the land-owners of the Commonwealth are not ?-I am not going to say that. were called up'on to pay a straightout land tax_of 31d. 2694. Then_ there is no publican who would give . h ld d · k t h · th f I' I d per £1,1 ey wou produce more revenue than all the 0 a w; 0 b e t orldlduor .- 0 revenue we get now through the Customs and Excise no269n5owFa pu 1ean m 0 1 a1 k. w 1° dwou 0 so. bl·. - dltties on stimulants ?-I would not question 'it. . rom your persona now e ge, every pu lCan · ' in Hobart is what you call a respecta;ble publican,?- The witness withdrew . So far as I know. _ . . \ 2696. Have you ever seen any soldie1;S the worse fo! . drink ?-Yes. 2697. What do you. mean by "worse for drink"?­I suppose they would be rocking about a birt. 2698. You look so healthy; that I presume that you have never been the worse for drink f-I will admit the - soft impJlachment. At a congenial gathering one might have one or two drinks th'at 'voulcl make him a bit fresh. Gegrge Woolnough, clergyman and military chaplain, sworn and examined. -2715. B:y the Chairman.-Are associated with the Defence Forces.?-Yes. I have not been to the Front. I am on special duty. I only reside in camp when called on for special duty. That lasts for seven days. I have beent associated with Clareri10nt Camp in this way for twenty months.

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123

2716. In what way do you come in contact with i·e- 2726. Can yQu niake any suggestion whereby we ca:n, turned soidiers ?-From v:isiting ' them· at the hospitals the evil caused by intoxicating drink ?-My and from meeting them on the street and at different suggestion is to cut out the whole business and have meetings. - - - total prohibition.

2717. -Does drink affect the efficienc); of our Forces' 2727. How long would it -

wounded: .._ They all tell me that drink d9es not help\ . allow things to eontinue as they are ?-I would favour to heal their wounds. Sometimes tell me that restrictive legislation, su._9h as the introduction of an

half-a.:.clay's carouoo will open their wounds again. I "anti-shouting" measure. I believe it would be very have noticed that the sj;eady men and those w_ ho drink popular with soldiers, as well as with civilians. very Jittle alcohol recover from their wounds mo1·e - , 2729. Do you think it could be carried out?- Yes. quickly. - , . 2J30. Have you been in a country where they -have

2718 .. In what way do you think drink interferes with absolute prohibitiOn t:-N °· -

the effi0iency of the men before they go to the Front?- ' 2731. You -have stu

Judging by the condition of those I have seen go1ng ·

to the camp and about the st,reets pf the city, I have no . 2732 · You know that there is no difficulty in getting doubt as to its ill-effects up.Qn them. I can say that intoxicating drinfs in· the dry districts of America?_::_ the drinking man is not as fit -for his job as the non- That may he so where the law is not administered. drinker is. · , Does the axe chop? _

27?3. You think it would be· possible to ·carry Olf't

What percentage would those men be to all the -absolute prohibition in Australia ?-If. the law is ;ad-men in camp-'1-1 have not · the figures before ' me to ministered fairly. , * Rpeak defini-tely on that n1atter. 2734. you aware that some doctors say that' if

2720._ The efficiency of an army, wo:uld be effected you prohibit the use of alcoholic drinks persons accus­ if < a certain percentage was the worse for liguor tomed to them Will fly ,to cocaine and drugs'?-Doctors it tro op t1·ain that would _contain 150 men 1 am quite differ. ·- _ · _ _

sure that I have seen a quarter of them to some extent 2735. You are inclined to agree with those who

under the influence of ' l.iqupr. I am speaking of ,think that if ·prob,ibition is brought in it will have the troop train rthat -would be leaving Hobart for·the camp effect of making men sober?-Yes. I recognise that on- pay nights. The n]Jmber- depend upon -the there may possibly be · difficulties and some ill­

length of time the men had been in town. Perhaps after ./results, but every big movement is attendeq with some a- demonstration, or after ·an unusually warm day, there arawbacks. I think that · the good results that would would be a quarter of the men the influence of - follow would justify the adoption of . the measure. liquor. _ I have seen a percentage',of men in a -very bad 2736. Do you think that would have the

- W ·ay-sick and VOmiting-and outrages have been -com- effect of dislocating industries in any way?-1 think it mit•ted which _ would not have been committed if it had _ w,ould encourage industries. - -

not been for drink. -I know a soldier that committed . 2737. Do you think the hop-grower would put his. a theft. I was able to get the stolen property restored; , hops to some other use ?-I think that could be done,' The man told me that he had no recollection but, after all, the hop-growing industry is not a large

mitting the, theft. In another case two soldiers were one. absent ' vithopt leave. They had - spent their money, .., 2738. Do you think that the orchardist could t1irn and were 'waiting early one morning outside a pawn- his apples to some other use than cider making?-De­ shop. One rp.an ha_ d- his false teeth in -his .hand. · -Re cidedly. We a;e just _getting into _the use of evaporated.

told nie he was -going to pawn ' them ·as soon _ as the shop apples. A ttep twn shoul-d be turned in that direction. opened. I persuaded them to come away with me, and 2739. Are the apples now 11sed for cider making .suit-I got strong coffee and a breakfast for them. able for· evaporating ?-I think so. --

2721. · Were they the worse for liquor but they 27 40. L was un.der the i:mpression tpat. most of the

had evidently just come off a spree. In a treop train apples used c1der makmg are not smtable f?r ex-- not map.y m.onths ago I .saw a soldier who was the port ?-In _ theu fresh state they would not be smtable, worse for Iiquor and -violent. His mates were obliged so far as ! k?-ow, f9r export, but they would be suitable to hold him down in the carriage. · Frequently soldiers for evaporatmg. . __

heg from me in streets: It is quite a common" thing 2741. Wo'?-ld YOll be m Javour of compensating the fm· soldiers -to be -so stony- bro/ke that their last penny hop-grow:r 1f he was not. able. to make the same profit gone ·and they have no money with which to buy out of his land by turmng 1t to ,other purposes ?-I

_ anyt}ling to eat or get a bed. Sometimes they make ex- would rather compensate the hop-grower than the botel­ cuses; but when I get a sniff of their breath I always keeper. Under an old Briti.sh Statute, the sale of

say, "You ·have been drinking again," and they always alcohol as a beverage :vas as 1llegal as the slave trade d "

7

Was. · a mit it. I have never kn:own a soldier to be stony -broke except through drink. - Do :vou think that that Statute applies to Aus-

2772. 1n watching men trainin·g in! camp would you · be __ able from personal observation to realize that there was a sufficient number who - would interfere with the rest doing 'their work properly?-! could not say.

2723. By Senator members of your

flock gone to the . Front as soldiers·?-Yes, a fair num­ ber of them. - Mo st of the fit men in our chinch have gone. · -.

2724. Is there a fair percentage of married men muo ng them?-yes.. .

2725. I-Iave the wives of the soldiers who are awa:v been drinking and neglecting their families?-! do not kno-vv :of any instance, not· in my church .

tralia?-I think so. ·

In whose was that Statute passed?-!

th1nk It was enacted m 1552. 27 44. Although the Tasmanian Parliament passed a - law making it legal for the publican to carry on from year to year, you say that under an old British Act his ­

trade is illegal?-Yes ;-as I read j.t, the licence he has is really a permit to break the law.

2745. B 11 Senator Guv.-·H ave you ever not,iced men ·travelling to . and· from the camp getting uncon­ trollable ?-Not on the train. I think the uncontrollable ones usually stay behind. A man must not enter the camp under the influence of liquor.

124 - -.-

2746. Does not- tliat expressio'n "under influcnee - _- 2763 . .As a matter' of fact, you cai:rnot !lay of your of liquor" some modification? .......... ! should say : own knowledge whether any men have fa1led go to

"uncontrollable.'' ' - · the Front because o£ drinking?==No. I know

2747. A can enter c:;tmp if he can walk -_ ?orne for other _reasons, and,

guard have never seen (!. ·man helped past the - m my opnnO-n, dnnk has been

guard. I have found _rnen Oh streets when they 2764. But you do_ .not know of_ any

-should beefi on the train. _ were the worse for I have to he to prove t?at 1t was

liquor, aild--I have .put them in bed. . . · that led to dismissal, but_ the offimal

2748. you ever with bottles have _ · perhaps, sho'\v that the n1an had some physical

h eard-that liquor has· been carried into camp in bottles,- defect. - · --

- but I have never seen it do.ne. ·- 27B5. lias it not occu1-red to you that n-lany men may.

2749 . Have you se.Eni. ally _ damag€l done on the train?- httve -been dismissed from-camp because _ they h ave had to - _spend a lot o{ time in looking for employment, br

---N °' - - cause of mental worry, which_ has led them to suffer

-_ 2750. By S?nator Colonel Rowell,=-oCould ycm giye _from malnutrition ?==-It is ·possible; but I 1iave known

tts ,any idea of tl:1tti 6£ who have men who have }ad a lot of worry and 'hard work, and

beecome inefficient t h rough drink and b-een unable to · h · b th k' f th h · tl.. c-- h - fi-Fi."" -­ It - as . · .· e fi1a tllg' 0 - W -(i}fi ·uey · ave 0 vue do their duty at th(g Front ?=I not t}ie figures. - into camp. - . _ 2751. Do you think there would be any large num- ·After they -in. to canip they got fed up?-=-

"hers of ?------I i·-eally could .not -say. - - Yes. They hc ,we a good time in iamp ; they have plenty

2752. Have you had any experience of camp !ife of amusement. Most of them _put on flesh and ,db prior to this wati=-N 0. - - , well. The drill is not more ·than an ordinlU:•y strong

2753. By S-enator -Grant.= Db you know that, accbrd:.. man can stand. _ _.. " -

ing to the iast returns from the Customs, we 2167. And they caii come into Robart on leave ... nithts

ftom the drink traffic £2,500,60B from Customs duties _- and much beer as like?-:-7'hat and £2,J 12,974 from ExCise cfttties, during 1915-1.6t .27B8. Yet tht\y put oii flesh . and look well?-I am

that total prohibition would mearr that .the national _speaJ.dng _of the mail who is ngt a waster-the man -yvlio revenue would be reduced to that extent; you _ h_ as had hard work and wort y, and who has- gone into

_g_ny to the means_ -Pl which gap in -·_camp and been his worry. _With good food.

the national reverme could be filled up d_ o 1J.ot an4- hot tQo mucll he puts 'on flesh

gatd it as at all serioh$, because the liquor "trade is and toiies_ up · . - -·- -.

a decided 'drawback to the coihllitnlity, and its wreckage - 27-69. The abMnce , o£ nutritious food and too much cOsts so much to cJean up, anq bec-ause it costs s:o much _ e-Jfca·t inlooki!ig for FO.rk ·have an e:ff_ect on the physique - to undo the evils that result from it. ! have _ nof the of a nian ?-I have known it- iri some cases. -

figures for Tasmania, but I could- -very quickly get . -2770. Do you know of any men who have returned figures showil1g what it costs Victoria ih the attem_pt _ _. have bee11 placed in employment in .Tasmania 1-to clean up tne wreckage of the tr-ade. ' It costs more I know a m.afi who returned qu:ite recently, and. he told than the revenue brought in. _ . ' rne be _ had been olfered his old position. - . .

2754: In your opinion, the economy eftected D6 you .know many who have secured employ-

abolition of the trade ivould more than equal the loss ol_ a p6sitions or under the

and the tn6ney -spent in 1iquor would sC'herne, or are- they st'ill about\ Robart in the various

natprally be turned into more cltannels. , _ that look after returned soldiers ?---I do not

2755 , _Do you th.at know any who are I do n6t many

who advocate teforms of this kmd should provide personally. ,

alt-ernative accomfuodatior1 for th{Z travellei's who arrive - 2772. Do· you know any who have secured employ-in cities or towns think so. _ - niefit and have lost it on account of-drinl}?-N o. '

2756. Do- ycm _ know . that the do or of the hotel is - - - '"-"' -

practically the 'only one which is open-to visitors coming , Henry DobM

into a town ?-That remark dges 'not appl_ y to.H6bart. - . 2773. By 'UtA ypu any statement

2757. What ' othl:3r places are :t vailab_ le here ?-Many which you wish to make -to the Committee ?-I asked - other places. Th-er•e is not a gt'€at deal of accomrnoda- - pertn!s@ion to give evidence because I have some know­ . tion provided by those who have drinking bars, not a . ledge of matte!' with which the Committee- is Cfeal­ great deal, -comparatively speaking, for visitbi;s. ing. - I am Ohairman of- the South Hbbai't Recruiting

. 2758. -How many hotels in Hobart provide accom.:- Obmmittee, arid I was chairmail o£ the three-confetence's' m

2759 . AN:l the major pbrtion ,..o£ the hotels ih Hobart opinion, the drink tr•affic is the greatest curse o£ the m erely places where me11 can get d_ri11k but not sleeping ·Empire. It came· 1111der the notice of our committee accommodation understand that that is correct. that when soldiers. into evety Friday night

Most o£ the · places are very small. - there was a considerable ambuht of drunkenness or

2760. From your association with !he soldiers and bl!ling u :b der the influence o£ liquor, also rowdy conduct residents of Hobfirt, oould you -,state ho_ w ,many' have going ladies.· the committee

been preventeO: from going to the Front iii about 1t most .bitterly; possibly' they exaggerated It a

-of the e:ff@Ct of the immoderate use. bf d:tink?""""'""N o. I little, but .thel'e i!l no doubt that at the beginning there not give definite figures. , _ was great trouble 1n that way. The connnittee

Would the number half .. tt-dozen a resolution that the de:tlnitiou of ttavellei' should be

Easily. f;·ar as · I h nve 'Yheh · ·altered to place Gam}_) the radius.

man enters ca1np -he does not stand trann:ngt. and I wrote to the ::Mimste:( for Defence in t-e£8l'ence to the is as 15eing m.edically unfit. Men who know matter, and after more delay than r think- was just1-

him know that he is a waster, but the official record :fiable, an alteration was made by local legislation. simply says _that he has some ph.J::sical defect. Whenever a transport came to_ H<.J.bart there was an ex-2762. It does not specifically_ show that he has been cessi:v·e amount ·of drinking noticeable. Whe11 800 or dismis§ed because o£ the he may have been 400 Queenslanders came through I stood at the street ,

addicted to drinking to excess As fa:r as I- know, - corner when tliey were ttun-ching past, and -b. ad a good it shows that 'he has.- some ·physica1 defect. - look t4em·. I ·. had seen a lot --of Queensland

581

'125 ---

people before. I notiqed many therp. must be- State control on · the principle- 9£ Lord Grey's trust,­ oeen drinking, from the look _of theu faces and fro!Jl that no one but the State should -make a penny of their unsteady gait. - 1 saw one /man drinking beer out selling drink, that the ma!lager of every hote! shall be -o£ a bottle, and I saw_ another man with a bottle of beer on a salary and shall get no percentage -OJ! the sale of

sticking out o£ some part of -hia _uniform. J as. I drink but shall get a, generous commission on every­ was thinking what a rough unsteady lot they were, thing' else. · The . licensing system under which men one man saia, "·what, don't _ you like the look of are a.ble to make a profit is a most fatal business: I am There was nothing in. the but I not a teetotaller myself, although I am followmg the

from what the polic

_ had a r_ egular -riot ancl- drunken orgy. -- 2775. By S·enator Oolonel Rowell.-Have they given

2774. When did this happen fifteen months compensation This licensing system of

ago. · My committee passed a resolution th_ at public gone on and OJ;l. We have had awful to: get rid

houses should be closed whenever transports were leav- of licences already-granted, but we contmue to hsten to ing Hobart ·or calling here. I telephoned to the Oom- the _pleadings of men who to earn a out of

mandant about it; and wrote to the Minister for De- the trade. Unless we wan't to see the Empue go down fence. _ There was SQn'lEl delay, but the matter has been and retrograde, we · are bound to alter the system. It is attended to. Even afte1· that I hea:rd from of rny a rotten one. I do not know what will happen if it is

committeemen that an hotel on the Oascades-toad __ re- to when the soldiers Qome back. I would like mained o·pen-. I un

, A certain proportioD: o£ will drink w4en they. get of 'thing. _

a chance, and we :Know perfectly well _ that soldiers, 2776. _By the Chai1·man.-Where did they take being me11, will do tl!_e same. We have seen them here -We had Mafeking day and Mafeking night. It was doing it, and to say that it does not affect the effi- all a drunlten orgy. I am a£-raid that nothing w"ill do ciency, discfpline, and moral the _ soldier is to say but prohibition. I sh all vote for it in every way I can.

that black is white. r-believe that drink has -prevep.ted The other -day _I subscribed £12 to help the movement. men from enlisting, that it has caused men to 2777. 'You think that the ·only solution is prohibi­

charged-they have down in _their tion but .as an «:2ld politician accustomed to the

and that it has· ·undermined --discipline. It has made word I say that if the people are not

some o£ oui'" soldiers regard the preparations for war, ripe for .prohibition I would try State cont_!ol, in orde! and the. itself, as a bit of a lark, and not the serious to stop this present licensing system:. It be a

vita-l matter it is. It has already been proved that great improvement, because it means taking away the alcohol is a drug, a pleasing drug which -makes men gain men make out of alcohol. · ......__

take n:iore t!J.an is go9d for them. lias undermined 2778. By-,Senator Grant.-Is land easi!y procurable the health ·of the soldier at t.he Front and retarded the in T-asmania at a reasonable cost for repatriation pur­ healing of his wounds, I th!nk the Committee would poses for lana settlement think it is. Most of the do well to read a book called The Fiddlers. They would good land for soldiers is in the midlands and find that we ate dealing with a world-wide evil, . which in, the north. lJ:ost of the land ·down · in this pa-ct

is dragging do_ wn the whole of the British Empire. I of the State is orchard land. I think that .land settle­ noticEt that -evidence has been given that _ we in J'as- ment and the extension of public works should go to­ mania with -our cool climate are .:more sober than people gether. A man might-make a gGod living .out of a small in the othe:r States. Driuk is such a._ terrible curs_ e, as orchard if -he -could get f-our months' work at road

proved for centuries past by Judges, doctors, ma,a;is- m gking at 8s. a day. We have had two bad orchard t .. and reforme;s, :hat it is to talk about seasons, and we are faced with a third, because we have

us bemg a httle less. commumty not a chance of transporting our apples to

other people. The evil IS s9 colossal that we can afford England and the European market. tq_ be a great more sober t_?an. they are and yet 2779. Very -few returned soldiers have bee!! settled have a colossal left. If drmk Is allowed to con- - on the lands of Tasmania?-I think that most of those tinue, and the s_oldiers ate allowed to have wet canteens who have returned are invalids suffering from nerves

-:-:I abs?lutely disapprove- of . them; all the and shell shock. I do not think that they have the

1n favour of we! canteens,, have utterJy d1sp0se.d hard work in theJ.n to t ackle the land. of by :the practical of. them-If _ 1s 2780. \11;-r ould it greatly facilitate the repatriation ·of

allowed to go tbe , difficulty of puttmg soldiers if the ordinary citizen who has not gone to the

soldiers on the land_ -and repatriating them, and- help- Front could be -provided with cheap land thus leaving ing tliem to_ ci-yillife; will i;lCreased 50 per cent. a .vac_ ancy in the city _ for the partially' incapac-itated - We have J?:ad _ sold;ers here su:ffermg shock and soldiers to secure employment ?-Small land-ownere nerves, and the d.r.1nk they take, even. If not to excess, are doing so badly that people will not leave the towns.

does them no good; on . the contrary, 1t does then abso- 2781. At what price can a returned soldier secure lute harm, as any man will. tell you. Drink land in Hobart for purposes ?-It all depends

ought to be ·stopped· until _ all our soldiers 4ave gq_t back on where the land is sltuated. ·

·and got into civil life. · There will be a bother 2782. -Can he secure plenty_ of land at £2 per foot?-

in dealing with these m·en, and _ if prohibition or what- I -think so. ever steps are before we have dis: 2783. I s it not a fact that or_dinary building land

pose.d of them; 1t will 4o _ when all _ · at Newtown £2 per foot ?-It might in- the main

soldiers are- congregated m the Citws than by lettmg street, but not m the back streets. things go on as they are. I have ·been studying this 2784. Is not that price a very serious menace to the matter for 50 odd years, and I am absolutely convinced returned soldier a working man is sober and he • that the present licensing is rotten t? and his wife are thrifty, they have :r:o trouble in making

and that we cannot do better than have proinbitlon 1m- a good home for themselves._ It IS no d,rawback for lnediately, ·or . State-- control to_ begin with; but it must them to pay a fair prico for their land.

I

- 126.

2785. Do you regard £3 or £2 per foot 'as a fal.r price? -Perhaps no:t £3, but I am sure that scores of homes could · be got on .Jand at £2 or £1 lOs. per foot. , 2786. By Senator Buzacott.-Do you know of any case in Tasmania where the wife of a SC?ldier lias spent ·her money in drink and her family?-No;

but one vicar has told me that he knows of .five families where probably some of the men ought be at the

front and have not got the pluck to go, the man _drinks half his wages and gives the rest to his wife. ·

2787. I am referring to the wives of soldiers who are at the Front ?--I have not ll.eard of any case._ The Committee adjourned.

(Taken at Launceston.) WEDNESDAY, 27TH FEBRUARY, 1918.

Present:

Senator T'HO.MAS; Chairman; Sena.t,or _ Buza,cott, Senator Guy, Senator Grant, Sena.t.or Rowell. _

Francis John Young,_ Sub-district Naval Officer, sworn and examined. '

2788. By the Chairman.-Do you come into contact with the• troops coming from F'ront and going a.way 1 -Yes, under the War Precautions Act we have charge of the wharfs and of all arrangements, . whether

troops are· arriving or Some troops go

direct from Hobart, but the majority go tlrrough Laun­ ceston. Nea.rly all the re,turned s.oldiers come-to Laun­ oeston from Melbourne. 2789. F'rom y'our personal knowledge you, come to the conclusion that drink affects the moral or

efficiency of the troops, or ma.kes it more difficult to handle the men coming and going 1...::-_No. · They are a . sober lot of troops in Tasmania; more so;· I would

consider, than -anywhere e·lse in the W

started on the whads. At one time w-e were

not administe.ring the War Precautions Act there. We have only been doing that. -within the last -eightoon months. I not here in the early s.tages of the

I was away with tlie New Guinea Expeditionary Forc-e. 2791. You cannot tell us whether there is more

sobriety now than the·re wask at beginning of the war ?-No; I was away for six or seven m·onths at the beginning of the war. 2792 .' During the last eight.een months your per­ sonal observation- is that. intoxicating liquor has not been a nuisance?-Not in Launceston ..

2793. By Senator G1ty.-Did drink ha.ve any effect - on the troops in the Ne.w .Guinea expedition 1-Yes. It ha'd a very bad e:ffect on the troops there _when -they· were able to get it. But that was only occasionally.

Fellows used to go on a regular " burst." I am speak­ ing of what they got outside the rum ration we used to receive. _

2794. Was there no regulation preventing them from getting drink 1-N o, There were no hotels or any­ thing like that, but they used to get it quietly. It

was pre.vented from coming into· camp ip any . large quantities. - The Commanding Officer tried to na.ndle the ques.tion by establishing a we.t canteen, and getting liquor from Sydney. Matters we·re all right whe.n they were regulated in tha.t way, but we could not prevent other su pRlies from coming in.

2795. You found the wet .canteen an advantage 1-I , it was a gre-at advantage, but we only had it

go;n_ Q' when supplie,g could be obtained. · 2796. Many of the men drank to exooss7-Yes. 2797. What wa.s the result got into very

serious trou hle, and punished.

27.98. Were dismiesed 1-No; but I saw two or

three courts martial, and I do not know what became of tlle men afterwards, because I left the. district. 2'199. Did _they represent any considerable portion of men?-;-No. There were some "-hard doers "

among the Naval men, and I should say they repre-sented .about 20 per cent. . ,

2800. They gave trouble by drinking to excess 1-Yes. They were subjected < to minor punishments. 2801. You are sat.is,fied· that the troops here are more sober than troops you ha.ve J)J.e·t with e.ls:ew I can

say that. It. has boon remarkruble to me. 2802. Would you consider that the·re is little or no neoes-s.it.y for any restrictive. measures. to be. an aid to­ wards the grea:t·e·r efficie•ncy of the troops. 7-If thingB continu-o. as the•y are the·y will be quite satisfactory.

2803. By Senator Colonel Rowell.-V{he-re would · the men get the liquor in New Guinea ?-Some of the German planters had rather _supplies of liquor.

It was. not so bad when men bad only beer, but whe!l the·y to get brandy-and there was a lot· of that as well as wine·, h]ft• it was most1y was

trouble. - 2804. You are in of regulating

-Yes·. · -

, 2805. Would. you having spirits in those

can.teens. nothing than beer.

2806. Have a. la.rge number of m...en returned at one­ time to TaSimania party we have had was

about 110. They came through a c:o.upie /of weeks ago. 2807. Were ·they let loose in the town 1-Some of them. Othe·rs went srt.ra.ight awa.y to Hobart. ' 2808. We1 re the·re any .o.ases• of insobriety among the men about the· town ?_:No. · .

2809. Tasmanian people e:xoo.ptionally sober 1-I think so. The -soldiers are exceptionally sober. 2810. Do you think it would 'be fl• good thing to· re­ strict the u shouting u - habit 7-I t4ink it /would be

a good thing, but I ' consader that the law would be e_vaded.

2811. By Senator Grant.-Have you seen any· cases of drunkenness among the soldierS/ going awa.y or com­ ing .hack at Launcest.on while they have• been in charge of the military ,officers; -but I have noticed it among those' I ha.ve S•een in the,-t.own. -, 2812. -Would -they be residents of Launooston ?-Ye-sl. ,

2813. Would there be many of ot many;

less 1han ,5 per cent. of the men who have returned. ' 2814. What- about thee outgoing metu?-There would be very little

or delayed from go·ing to the Front· through the exces­ sive use of drink 1_;_N o. 2816. Would the' amount o:f drink taken by the

soldiers in Tas.mania1 have any appreciable upon the efficiency of the men 1'-N o. 2817. Would be due to the we·ak, watery bee·r

sold in. Launceston ?-I do not know. 2818. :Jla.ve' you noticed that the he•er in- Launceston· is weak and watery ?:_No, it is mighty thick. The_ wate:r is very thick. , ·

2819. When yo:u were in New Guinea did you notice -that the drink taken by some of the men affetCted their e·ffioiency 1-Yes, it did to a considerable e-xt,ent.. I have' known men to he• uselesS! for a; wee·k o-r two after taking it. The clima.w als.o would aff.ect them. They would not recover as quickly as they

would in1 a mo-re tempe•rate We to re­

.ceive a rum ration. I thought it was a very good idea. It was a re,al life sa.ver. . 2820. The rum would be of 'a good; solid quality?­ Yest; it had the effeot of keeping down malaria.'

2821. Did they h,ave apy_ whisky or brandy there 1-0nly that was when a steamer would

a.rrive. They might rec-eive some then, but not much.

,. , ,

.\

127

Are you in favour of hote,ls being' closed while at Junction, was in use. They were not a.l ­

troop..,ships .are lying: alongside the '· wliarfs ?-:-From- ways1 vell'y -nice when they we·re in .the town, still · I " what I have seen there is 110 need for it here. - _ do not know that their drinking would interfere with

2823.. I am referring to' the when soldiers their efficiency. '- ·

are 'going through Latinceston ?-The' :rp.en who are 2838. You would imagine that men in that sta.t.e -going through do not get any liberty to go to the hoit,els'. . not, be, as good as_ men who were sober < ?-That is n is only the local residents who dis,pe,rse in the town .,;:o. when they arrive a'nd go to homes. There are no 2_8 39. I take ·it t hat the police are naturally lenient

stragglerts, as there would he in Hoba,rt, if they- were _ with men in uniform.1-Yes, we ov·erlook little things going to join a transport the .;.re. - , - so that the,y can get back to their camp. .

2824. What he_ce:m:Ss of a man .who arrives ·by the 28.40. Have the pohce had any tr9ubie with men Loo,ng-a.na at 9 a.m., and does no;t- leave for Hobart who had embarked at L a;unoesrton for the F 'ront'1-N o, until 11.30 a.m.; are the men kept on board the they have' gone on board al1 1right without any com­

steamer or are they marched to the train?-They are pJa.ints. being made to us aQOUt . their absence. They -., · taken away by the · military authorities. · I d.o not know seem merry at -times,, but there nothing to complain whether they are let loose' ·in the town· or not, but if of. ·

they are I do not know what becomes of the·m. The,y _do not re·turn in large numbers 1-They

2825. Have- you soon men- who arrived by the boat return m pa!Tt1es of about 60 or 70, and at times, per­ depart by the train twt» and a half hours haps, a f.ew ·more•, but they are always quite sober:

but I have see'll no among them. _2842. Have thepolice· had much difficulty· in dealing

2826 .' So tlia.t so far, a.s your e.xpe,rienoo goes in w1th returned soldiers, ?-Only on one Oil'' two occasions, Launcestcm:, -drink-has had no appreciable effect on the when we have ha,d to re.strain ·meiU in our quarters outgoing or incoming soldiers 1-That is so. and bring t he.m before' the' magistrate. There

1 • · ' been about five or six cases of that sort.

' 2827. fJy Ser£a,tor -B1./Jzacott.-When the_ drink rnn out.in the wet canteens in New Guinea was it thein that . By · Senator Rowell.-Have you any means of the men went to the Ge!l'ma,ns and supp1ies1-Tha.t JUdgmg whe,ther the· drinking habit·s of the men he.re would be the time whe,n they would be looking for it have, had any great. ·effed on their efficiency am an - ev·erywhere. · _ old soldier. Soildiers will hf.we a, glass now -and again,

-2828. vVhen you 'had the wet canteens in ope:retion - and, _ no doubt, after going . back to camp and having there _ was trouble?-Yes, they were not looking a good sleep, they, may be just as good men next day

for drink elsewhere. --_ _ _ as they were be{ore the,y left the camp. - I was in the

2829 . Do you thi:nk the sa.me thing would apply _in Natal Carabineers in 18T9 to 1881. Tasmania, think so. A big lot of the men do not 2844. I suppo•se that men ooming from Hobart to

bother to· leave camp to go int€>' to,wn or elsewhe·r,e -for here or landing_ here to re,turn to Hobart go

it. T'hat was my expe,rie,noe when we, were in camp. in_ by. trmn ?- almost immediately.

Victoria befo•re we went to the South African War: A tram Is run spema.lly to smt them. Sometimes if \Ve had wet, canteens the·n. - , · boat happens' to arrive· in good time they may be

2830. Would you he, in favour of selling/ spirita in left. here for two or three hours. ·

wet canteens ?-No, only beer and.soft drinks. 2845. Do the men go about the town ?-Yes., but we

2831. Do you _ think it would be in the interests of - have had no trouble _with them cso far. The local men go the 9oldie!l"s and of the -popula,tion generally if the' alco- to the Base Hosp1 tal, and the others are taken in holic strength ·of beer was reduceQ. ?-I take some beer. cha,rge by their -officers and marched to the· train. I do not find it too strong. It might .be. too strong "" By Senator Grant.--' How· many breweries ar·e

Eor sorn,e pep-ple, but I -do not find it SIOI. If I want a there m Launceston one.

drink I do not want. to drink anything weaker than 284 7. Is muoh- be.er imported ?-:c-I think there is a. the hee:r I now obtain. a gooci deal imported from . Melbourne. Carlton ale is

28'32. We• had evidence, in Hobart to the e,fferot that d,runk here very much in bottles. I have not seeri it civilians' were, in the, hahl.t of following retui:ned on dra.ught. Boag'sl brewery provides a lot of bottled soldiers wi tl]. "" the hope of gettmg a _ drink from them; ale. ' have you notieed anything of the civilians . ' 2848., How many hot.els and public houses· a.re there

ii+ Launceston ?-No; I often noticed civilians m Launce.ston ?-There are seven public houses and

with r·e.turned soldiers, but· they appe,a,red t;o' be friends 35 h otels. or relativ·es.. -- - · 2849. What is the population of Launceston ?-Be-

2833.- By S 'tna.to ;. Colonel Rowell.-How long have twe·en 26,000 and 27,000 people. you be,en in the Se,rvice,1-For 32 ye,ars. · · 2850. Are you in favour - of the early closing of

hote.lSI ?-Not altogethe·r . I think that 9 o'dock or 10

Thomas Glll', Inspedor of Police,, Launoeston, sworn o' dock at night would be a. fair thing . I as a

and examined. man who h as knocked about the world . The city looks

2834. ' By the Chmi1·man.-Ha.ve you boo·n Inspector .,. very, dull when people come in from the country if all of Police since the war -started ?-Yes. the hote,l.s ar·e closed up.

2835. Is there any camp near La,unceston -train- 2851. At, what time do the hotels close in

ing soldierS! ?-No. ·. __ near-est oamp we have is at ton ?-They olose at 6 o'clock for the sale of liquor, bnt \Vestern Junction-, but that is only used occasionally. between 6 o'clock and 10 o' olock they are allowed to - I do not think it is( in use now. sell t emperance drinks;; thecr'efore, the houses be

_ 2836. Not many men would come in from Launceston op en from 6 o'clook to' 10 o' clock, but not for the s.ale from there ?-Yes, when it is in use we would of intoxicating liguor.

perhaps1 , 200 oi-· 300 in Launcestou at a time. 28'52. Can travellers secure liquor at the hotels at

2837. F 'rom you!· persoual observation do you think any time 1-Traveller s , lodge·rs, or inmates can procure tha t intoxicatii1g liquors · have inte.rfered with the liquor at any time·, but people living · within 7 miles efficiency or mor·ale 6£ the :t110op s or made it more difii.- of the city ar (_' not allowed t o be s'11pplied with liquor

t.o train their men 7-I know tha;t through their having - 2853 . Are t here many arrestSi for drunkenness in drink they have' caused , trouble on many occasion13, I-'aunceston duri:qg a year?-From about l ast July to although we have got rid of them-without any bad re- the prooent time there have been about 50 cases, of _ suits. We' had trouble a.t the railway station. We whioh four ·or fiv.e would he women.

used. to keep_ a maJn specially on the station to g...et them 2854. Are y·ou of opinion :that _ th e amount of drunk­ an the _train. That. was our experience when the ca.mp enness W1hich exists in Launceston would have only an

',

. '128

- any, effect at all upon the

1

efficiency _ - _ P?"f?licans for

of- our sold16rs, who, of course, are frol!l the own 1-\V,e, haye to "9atcli the hoensee

population?-Very little. / _ · t.hre,e times' · hef"ore his licenoo can be taken

2855. -It is not worth while taking into acc:fount 1- f1:om him :.. · /

I do not think so. 2869. By the ther-e any sly-grog

2856. By · yop noticed that• a'ny shops in Launceston) _:,_Sorp.etimes we hear rull!·Ours of

of the troops,. from Western Junction Camp or any of places people meet.- and ys, but

who be-en passing through Lctqnoestpl.l_ ha.ve fr

caused any destruction to 'propetty 1.......;..No. who go in -to ·t4_em, I _ be-lieve £4at they buy th.e liquor

285 7. No cle-structiop. to property i:q. with - between -them. _ · A ma- 11 will ·keep it in his. shop, and

t.be railways _have 9oon ve:ry good. ..... his - friends. will me1 et there oil ''the Su!_lday- morning-

2858. Ha:v:e' you notioe:d any e-xoe·&.3jve indulgence on and drink 1t. ·

the part of soldiers the Hospital1- 2870. Have _ shops in Tasmania. - to close at 6

No. o'clock?--:-Y f;}S;. except on Friday 'nights, they keep

In the 9f (:oniing fr·om 'optm till 10 p'clook: · " · • · ·

for embarkation for Me-lbourne, have you noticed 2871. You have given -as rea::wn why you thought sign . of their having embibed. on the train 1-- it would -be a,s weJl tio -ke,ep the hotel .open till or

It, would be just wha,t an ordi:gary n}a-n -wit-h a -10 o'clock that country· would llot find the place glasses of drink would s4ow. ... · 2860. You have: not:iced a few like thatj-Yes, so dull if the ho:teJs were lit up and _keprt 7-lf Often is singing a:Qehase-s w.ade by plain-clothea in month. . We civilian would be. I know that a great many of the would not do it unless. had some _occasion to do s-o. soldiers do not drink at ·- ·_ causes a lot of work for the police. We are kept 2864. '\Vould you be m of haVIng a going- all day \Ve that ce,rtain houses ba;r with no ..:entranoe, to it ·e,xc-e-pt_-f.rom the s,tree,t, a,nd - are, the Jaw, /and we have to send meU Ol!t w!th open that the .police coutd observe daylight hide inl the. -vicinity . . what is :going OJ;l inside 7-:-T'hat is what we are \V e- hav-e to !l,dopt -t·hese me.thoqs. \Ve ·do not, m&ke to do now. A new _regulation is to come· into force on any 9r disguis-e 'J'he the 1st of March by . whieh the tempetantCe bar is to way jp. which certain places are coi].duc.ted ' make us . be so arranged that the· police can go· into it. at any suspicious ·of The doqrs are lockeq. we go time. What you suggest is- a good thing. along in a s-traightforward Inanner to inspect .the pre-- 2865. By Senator , ColoneZ Row·ell.-:-Do- you kno·w mises. The pimps who a·re· on··watch rus:h- aud gjve tl!e -whether soldie·rs who . are takin-g a trip -over to· Mel- informa,tion that the, polioe, are coming. bourne treated the sall!e as would be -On a 2875. Am 1: in ·that a. ve,ry con­transport in r·egard to intoxicating drinks· 1-I cannot siderable number- ·Of- wealthy pe-ople in the cit.y and say. suburbs w.ho have welJ-stocked ooUars:· of wines, be.ers, ' 2866. By Senator Buzacbtt.-:What is the penalty for_ and spirits, can at all t!mes by having .access to their selling liquor in_ a bar fine impas,ed . cellars _ have drink when they require !t ?-No doubt recently was £1 with costs, but the maximum .is a many of them do. more than that. One, ve,ry go·?d 2876. H·av-e you had mauy oases of drunkenne.ss from - If than found m a room adJotmng such persons In most .cases when a man the hquor bar, and there IS acoess that room from _ locked' up for drunkenness he will tell you whe-re he - bar, or any a through a man _-Sal?- Ptt 1 has got the drink. Very few of those we arresW h1s hand, each person m that room Is liable to a mimmum oome-from p1a.ces (J,f that de-so::ription. They come from penalty o.f S?me have cony1nced the that the hotels all right. _ _ they were m the I'oom for. the purpose of havlng a. 2877. Would the....same peroon arreste-d more thap of cards,_ and very rightly they were not penal- 01100 in the Some give way to drink very tzed. !n some ·ca-ses we . much, the-y are ve-ry frequeutly arrested. m temperance bar.s w1th mtox1eatmg dnnk In · 2878. When you say that about 50 cases of drunken-- glasses. ness have occurred during the year, your remark would 2867. Would it enable you to carry out your not apply to 50 individ_uals but to !!- ve'ry ·less more efficiently if the _pe,naltv was £50 for the first number 1-Not v·e;ry many less. One man might be offence, £100 foF the second offence, ind tne 'loss of tl,_ t- Mn\Tic.ted tliree times during the year. -!icenoe for the third ()·ffenoe ?-:-Yes, we have oftefi said 2879. In vie-w of the fa,ct that you have had no cases that it would he a good thing .. · of drunkenness from private hou_ses - where cellars are

\

585_

129

well stocked, and in view of the· extf'a work thrown_ on the police by having to watch the temperance bars in connexion with public houses;, as well as the hotels would be in of the complete

abolition o.f the ex01se and import duties. and 'of the -licensing of public houses so that every one could make sell, :or use beer just in the sam_e way ·as every one ca-d make boots or clothing, ·without any restraint whatso­

ever?--N:o. vVhile there is no place in a city that gives more advantages that1 the hotel, people can go to them and get their dinners or get drink if the.y require them ; and the man who requires, a drink should be able -to

g-et it just as he can get a dinne-r-a-t the -same- time - there is no man in- the world who can' do more harm than the publican can. 28 80. If beer were made s6 plentiful and as cheap_

water, do you -think men wouJd persistently drink

Lt to excess, or/ would they trea.f. it in the same way as wealthy people do their cellars, is, jus-t drink in

moderation, and remain in a state of sobriety

things. of that sort were so common,- and people had eo,ntinued- access to them the-y might beoom:e tired of them just as they became tired of water, but at the

same time I think it would be a experiment.

2881. Ha.ve y'ou known of cases where men have-- had such· a Sllj)ply of beer in front o them that they have left it and gone bac-k to 7-N o. _ I 4ave

kqown men to have so much that they could drink no more, qut I have never known them to .re.ved to water. A man who has be1en drinking whisky might take to wa:ter to cool his blood, the majority of the people drink boor. Whisky is 9d. a glass, and very few people can afford to drink it. r

John Newell, Medical Practitioner, Officer'

Commanding the Base in Launceston,

sworn and e-xamined. 2882. By the Chairma.n.-How- long have you be-en at the Base Hospitai June las.t. I was on

active service for about two years in Egypt and Franc:e. 2883. Do you-think that drink prevents our putting forward our maximum effort to excess

does. 2884. But not drinking in moderation 1--I do not think so: '

2885. A man does npt start drinking' because he is a _soldier 7-N o. 2§_ 86. The fu en who , drink as. soldie-rs were1 drinking civilians 7-Yes.

2887. _you met any soldiers who have drunk

to exce-ss We have had litt-l-e trouble. in eon­

nexian with thH Bas.e here. We always have

about 70 or 80 patients, hqt since my return we have not had much trouble·. We have noticed cases in

which pa:tiehts have been drinking. My attitude

is that no patients should take a1coholic

except as ordered' :by a' medical man. The patients must t ake no alcohol eithe-r. in or. outside' the hospital, be-cause those men vte get, chiefly/ ne-rve cases, and perhaps men with dis.charging wounds-, a.re affe-cted pre­

judicially by a.lcoho even in siillall doses. If the sisters notice that a 'patient has been drinking, that is, more or less alcoholic, he is reported to me and paraded before ·me. I take the opportunity to explain to him that his con­

duct is . prejudicial to his welfare a.s a.. patient. I ex­ plain the· injurious effect of atcohol on him, and point out that such condt1ct is considered prejudicial to his welfare as a patient, and that as- he is under 'dis­

cipline he is liable to punishment. Then I ask the

men on their honour to promise- that they will tak€1 no more alcohol, and I wjll let them off. I have had only one man who has 9-roken his- word to me. So we !rave very little trouble. _ ,.

·2888. If a returned man drinks even to a moderate extent. he is a patie·nt, will it retard his recove_ry 7 - Y es. 1 ' -

F.1459_:_9

.2889. Every day a man is in hospital it adds thlng to the cost of carrying on the war ?-Yes. 2890. You have· a certain of men in 'the

. hospital who do not drink to exce:ss:, bpt drink moder­ at.ely but the perc-entage is· a very smaH one.

2891. And drinking, ev-en from . a; stand­

-point, has caused very litt.le trouble in your hospital1 --That is so.

2'892. How long- wer-e y,ou in Egypt 7-For five and · a half months. - 2893. Did you s1 ee anything there w!J-ich would lead yuu to suppose that drink interfered with the morale

or efficiency of the soldiers ?-No, because most of tbe time we cwere well out away from Cairo, in the desert, in the Canal zone. One could not see any drink there 'at ' all, because ther€1 was none available. -I was in Cairo

em seve-ral occasionSJ, but I cannot bring to. mind any oocasion when I saw a man. drunk. Of course; I did

not look for such things. 2894. Were you in Cairo when all the soldiers were allowed· to go to Shepheard's, and privates 1-

Yesl. The alteration was made during .my time. 2895. Why should not· a private he . allowed to go into Shephea,rd' s and have a 4rink could not bring forward any reason why he should not be allowed to · go the·re. The ma-tter was very widely discussed -at

the time, and no one se-emed to know the reas·on for making the alteration. - 2896. :w-as , there any row or disturbance caused by the soldiers at Shepheard's ?-I did not see any. I

presume that no order would be given unless there waR a reason for it . .

2897. There was no wet ca_ nteen in desert near

the Canal o.

2898. We-re the men any the worse be-cause they were not able to get liquor?-I do not think so. · ·

2899. If they had been able to ge1 t whisky, or even beer, _down there, would it have interfered in any way 7-In mo_de-ra:ti_on I do not think it would-. ,

· 2900. But the, difficulty would be that some of them might not be moderate there is al\v-aya

a percentage of men who will not be moderate; _ ..., 2901. But tha.t applies all along the line in . the

Army 7-I think so. It is juSt the same in the case

of_ civilians, and _the men in the Army a,re still civilians. 2902. The liquor has the same- effect on the soldier as on the civilian 7-I think so. 2903. Whisky has no different effect upon a man be­ oause puts on a uniform7-No. The attitude many men adopted beer in Egypt was that it was sup­

posed to be· .a safer drink than the water in the desert, unless the latter was boiled. 2904:. Is not that- a general impression in Australia. 1 -I do not know. , 2905. You think_ tha.t the drinking habits of the­people, from whom the soldiers a.re drawn have not in- _ te,rfere·f with the carrying on of the war or with efficiency; if we W€1 r.e a. teetotal people it would not have us to do muoh more· than we have done 1-­N ot anything ma.terial. My expe-rience is that there has not be.en a great amount of drinking, but my ex­pe,rience ma.y be small. 2906. You have notic-ed that Canada has practically gone in fo-r prohibition 7-Ye-s. / 2907. Would you judge that the people of Canada have gone in for prohibition simply for the fun of the thing, or beoa,use.- they think that indulgence in drink is int-erfering with the carrying on of the war must rationally infer that the latter is the case. . 2908. Would you naturally infer that the Canadians were heavier drinkers than we seeing th\1-t the drinking :.has ha.d no effect on us he.re· the necessity was: greater in Canada or the Canadians are -a stronger anti-alcoholic people in every form. 2909 . Would you think that the-y recognised that there were some dangers in alcohol 7-Evi-dently they · have reaEzed that atcohol is_ a danger. ·

, I

I

/

- 29l0. By Sen,a.(or B'!f zacott.-Did you havt1 any ex-- perience of wet;· in Egypt o. ·

2911. Were you on Salisbury Plain'! 7-No. 2912. Do_ yol.l t hink that the rum ration is sary?-It is a good thing if properly used.- I was m charge of stretcher bearers. Thf;ir work in the wet and mud. wal:l exceedingly hard, and they came back at •night extremely tired. We found that on issuing rum mtion they went to bed immediattloly ap.d , got

between warm blankets and had a goo( reaction from r. circulation point of view and slept well. Of course that is the only way in which rum should be used-when a person is going to rest and cap. continue the warmth

which it generates. The idea of us:i_ug a rum :ration before a 'person goes into battle is to all

2913. That is not done in the British Army 7-I

believe! not. . .

2914. Do you think that drink is r esponsible for the prevalenc_ e of ve:nereal disease am6:ug soldiers?­ Among men who take drink to excess, nAturally a for· sexuaJ inte•rcourse• is ge_ ;nexated, a;nd as a logJcal , conclusion 0 n e would say . that drinking

would increase the vene•real rate. 2915. That is, excessive drinking only ?-An amount of drink that would influence the man's mind, an

amount that would lead you to say that ;:t man was unde·r the infl.uencec of drink. . .,

2916. F'rom the cases that have come under your personal obseTvation, woUld you say that the majority of them were due to alcoholic drinks ?-;No. Some of rhe men in my unit who suffered from venereal disease were not drinkers. - · 2917. Have you had any cases in Tasma.nia 1- A

few among the men who returned, not more

half-a-dozen out of the· patie11ts I have' seen here m the, last six months. 2918. Were they: s,ufl'ering when the.y returned ?- All ex.cept two contract ed it on their retu:rn to Australia,

Two returned from the F':r:ont with it. I belie• ve the others contracted it in Melbourne . 2!H9. You had no knowledge as to whether they were .drinking or not ?-No. '

2920. By S enator Gtt'y.-Have you had any ex­ perience of the men leaving or returning between the train and· the boat?- No, not in Tasmania. My only experience was' in, leaving Melbourne. I was in camp at the South Melbourne Cricket Ground, and we went from there to the boat at Port Melbourne. . There

wertlt 2,000 men on our boat, and ther •e was one

natiooable case of alcohol. 2921. Drink was not available on the · boat 7-N o, but I suppose the men took it with them. Some- one would probably pass drink to them as they were march-

ing down. -

,-- Do any o£ the men ever complain that civilians

follow i;hem round the te>wn in order- to• get cheap from ' them 7-,--No. The only complaint, if it

is a poiUplai.nt, with these chaps who ha.ve been ing, is that they have too many when they_ meat thEm friends. I have tried to find out where• the real

J fault I ha.q a.n' id-ea that because ?,f

they met in the street. I am mebned to thmk 1t 1s.

They say to me, a I met a few friends from the

collntcy I had not met before, and we . had_ a f.e:w

!l:riuks, and kept at it. '' They say that 1t w11;s fritmds that induced them to drink, and I beheve It. If they were anxious to drink they would be drinking every day, but it is on rare. occasions "that they get

dfllnk. ·

· Does the use of alcohol in

(iof!8S a.ffect a man's sight 1-0nly when 1t 1s takep m excess. A r;mall quantity miglit -be excessive. for .one individual, and no one can tell what . eff ect 1t m;ght, ·haye ·on him. 1.\. m an might die of alcoholism with-

out ever having_ been drunk.

21)24:, A man wJ:w :might be. consi<;le:r!ld a sobe.!· m!ln migh_t he from alco.hollsm ,-­

might pQSslbly be suffermg from / effects of

.

2925. It also affetcts' nerve:;;, dulls: though,t, afftJcts _1\ rp;tn;:;; h11nds, and sP on ?-lJ it dig I $hould say that 1f, wa&

_ 2926. It is cleady your opmwp,. it_ affects re­

C.OV·E>ry from wound.s ?:__Undgubtedly lt does.

2927. By Senator Colp.nel Rowell.-Did . you go away with the convoy?-No·.- I did not go

away until 1915. . .

2928. Did you . go· direct to the Canal 7-:-I Wit_ h the• Sth Brig1:1de. We were four . days m Helwpohs and were then se-nt direct to the Canal. That was

before the• evacuation. - 2929. Was nat S4epheard's llotel a large boarding esta.blishment more than a, drinking ' place?-Y·es. 1 saw very httJe drink_ cons_umed there except. at mea.Js. It wM almost . a residential hotel.

2930. Is there a large number of boarders there?-Yes. · -

2931 , A good many oivilians.w€·re at Shepheard's and at the stayed 1

2932. There was a little gay hfe gomg on there at

times7-Ur,!fortunately I did not experience it: · .

2933. W·ere you ever there on Saturday mght 7-I do not think so.

2934. I suppose -ynu _hav·e heard that · there was an . oo c:asional danoo on Saturday ni:ght 7-Yes. 2935. Did you hear while you were, theTe that some men the worse fgr liquo.r went there and insulted a _lot

of ladies which was really the cause of the order bemg issued privates from going to Shepheard's ?

- No. '

_ 2936. You say th.at while you in Cairo yo.u- did

not see me·n intoxioated-7- I cannot. call to mmd a insta·nee of seeing a man

2937. ·You saw no more men mtQxlc/.ited there than you would se e while walking abo,ut Launcestoll: 7-E:x>a·ctly. I may have seen them, not notwed

them particularly. · There_ was nothmg remarkable about thtJm toJnake them stick in my memory. I was on leave in Cairo on four occasions.. There was very little leave given then. • . .

2938. The statement has been made, that snld1ers m France could obta.in any quantity of wine and ale there,: did you find _any great numger of the

worse fm· liquod- I not-reed some, but I would not say that the number was out of reaSQin. I noticed it more when we first went to France._ We went to the north, and were in camp three or f<>ur weeks preparing in a town where wine was obta-inable. There were some cases of intoxication from wine. . 2939·. Do think tha;t the drinking habits of

1

the

men have affected the effiCiency of those who haYe oeen sent to the no.

2940. By you a. total abstaine·r 1

-No. '

2941. Did you sample the spirits and bee:rs Cairo1 - I think so. I cannot r·ememper any spec1fic mstapce. 2942. Havs you beard that the-spirits sold were particularly dangerous ?- I ·emember hearmg

something about the drinks in . be,ing parti,cu­

larly bad when our troops were Ill CaiTo bef.o!I'e they went to Gallipoli. .

2943. Did yolf hea,r of a riot taking place· in con­ sequence of the inferior character of the , spirits ?- I of a riot. having taken place, bu.t I did not hear

much as to the cause of it.

2J)44. Were men allowed to visit

when the ukase was issued·_ debarring soldiers fro.rn doing .lJO 1- Yes, aa officers. 2945. Were, ·the soldiers allowed to visit the Con­ tineJntaJ 7-Not in my time.

2946·.. rom how many hotels in Cairo wer e the sol­ diers debarred ?-As far as I can recollect Shcpheard'r and the Continental the only two. •

- / . ' '-\

. ' •

131 '

7 , :Pid you any corn plaint about the beer in Js· it neoess·ary for 'the hl}man fram!' that we

C(l,iro beipg , qf a _dop_btful cha:raot{ld-N0 • I sho11ld take alcohel ?-No. -

it of am9P-g the that some 0! 2963 . .,And t4e taking of alcohol ·has led to oases of

dnnks solei H! _ !lome we:r·e of a ve·:ry iiJ-ferior drunkenne£,s p..mop_g the defep.ders of A iistrali'a and to ,_ I aannpt rmnem ber il:PY partic-qlar: places that i:np.aired their efficiency ?-There• are some

bem15 .. - - men who denve a amount of pleasur:e from al-

ll?! S f31t(!tQI' Calane? Jtqw ell,-Pid yo·it co)wlic beverages without incurring any harm. - Thi3

the- Pyra.nud r think it' was mostly an propprtwJ1_ of tP.Ei populace thil t drinks

HaliMl beer tGilit wat! sgld, - - ' ' bevt)rages lS very large, apd those people would cpnsider

' 2949. By S e1pato1· Gmnt.- If properly · matured 1t a hardship toPe cleprived of them. _It is a questio11 whisky ·is taken in moderation would it 00 more· in- of whether they should undergo the hanl.ship in order · j1,uious to a person than be.er taken in moderaho'n ?- to prevent a few men from becomiP-g qrunlq ucls.

I could not answer that qllestion satis,faetorily. It is P ersonally, I think the-re aJ:'e other mean§. which the a · questwn --ror an exp e-rt. who knows the _J;H'ocesses of Government might employ to prevent the p eople -from ' the, manufacture of those ar:ticles. /, g-ettmg drpnk. I think it would be wiser to cut down

Have ,YOU ever heard of any oflicers in Cairo tP.B percent1!g!.l of alcohol t p a ery -lqw figure, if

being mcapable of attending to their duties on account sary. so l<;>.w that · no man could get dntpk. In IllY of dripki"Q&' excess ?-1: remember any case of OJ?Imon It ls , much better to a difficult y in

an officer being UIJ-able to -attend to his dl!ties ·from ex- tbat Way than to have complete- pro!ribjtion. · d , v 2964 . You think it would. be better to cut do·wn the

cessj_ve stre·ngth of beer so tnuch that a would burst

295l. the )1ote.ls in closed when the b h t · d h · eforl) e got drunk o'clqck -closing wo]lld pre-

rqqps arnve _ t ere .-We in the l1lorning and vent that happfning.

were kept 011 board until 4 o'clock. Then we· were

frpw. the boaj, ·to- 'the• and left 2965. By tlu;- Chain nan.-You do not advocate the

an holJr - use oi . the rum e·xcept when men are just go-ing

. 2952. and g<;JneriJ-lly speaking, am- I correct to bed t --Or- gomg to res.t where they am capable of

tn assJ+ming that il} yOU!' opinioD- t4e' l!Se of beer Dr keepmg up the warmth wJ:tich has ge,p.erated. The. ,. has 1 i ot 'reaJ1y h 4d such an e:ffec£ great danger in taking alcohol is continuing e :x:ertio11._ or _

upon the efficiency of the meihbers of the• Australian contmumg -exposure after taking it. Imperi!'ll as tq j1J-stify the prohibition of 296fl_. Suppose it was possible to give a man hot

d1mng the- wad-I (1 9 thjpl): thi'l' :mffi- coffee mstead of rum, WO]l'ld it .be as good in the same

cient -to- j4-stify the pr!:ihibitton of -dri11k to ·soldie·rs. circumstances woulq have much the same effect, <\P-d civiH!l·ns ?-::-:My e-xpe:fienoe of the but mit so ma-rked an e.ff.ect. The substitution uf hot

9f _ alpgc}lol on civilia,ns- is v;; ry smalL _r only for rcum would' n ot affe.ct the efficiency of the

spe-ak ,a.s a medic;tl mart i11 a small place like men.

La uncg_ ston. - _ _ 2967. You do not think it would act as well as

29qij.. Jp_ view p.f the fact -that the British Empire is rum ?-It would not do so in certain circumstances . . up . a¥ain!lt _ the proposition_ which has ever _ - 299g, In somf!l circumstances hot coffe.e would · he

!t, <\!ld s(lemg tlJ_at drink does, even to an equally a§ g0od as rum, but in no circumstances would

infinitesimal e¥tent1_ affect the efficiency of the army, it be _that the advantage is in favour of rum 1 do ypu nr>t -thip)\: we· would be, justified in cutting - Yes, '111 the CJrcmmstances. of war, exposure; and cold; out E}VeJl that sini_i.ll H-?·11} wliich t ends to the inefficie-ncy I weulq. like to say that in London all patients in of tlw ·troops ?-t question whether drink in an in- hospital wear a de-ep blue- band on the arm and hotel­ PI1it% in!al quaii.tity · do.es affe1ct, the efficiency o-f the' keepe·rs are •not allowed to serve them with alcoholic army. · . . __ - - . , beverages. It is· an oif.enoo if they do so.

t gat.herca from your evidence that you ad- 2969. I do not suppose that- step would have been

)nitted that- ij:, hacL an infinitesimal 6 ffect taken unless: the doctors had asked for it ?-Exactly.

thought I made- it clear· that af:ty quantity of alcehol It woqld be a ve-ry excellent cust_Qm in Australia .. aff3

2956. Is it not- a fact that .a limited numbe·r of men LallllCtl§ton, swon1 i!-Ud exal1lineq .

in the· army dripk to excess ·1- Yes. ' I 2970. Ry the you been associated

2957. That being so, a 11d· as the army is composed of with the Licensing Bench ?-I have• bee11 Chairman of units, in view of-the tough rwoposition imiXJsed on the the Licensing Berich here for many years. Now I am Ep1pire to. day, do you thi11k we would be justified as a member of the Licensing Court which superseded the a nation in cuttir1g -emt even that infinitesimal obstruG- Licensing BeriGh three .mont hs ago. I have been in the tion to our success?-I would not think that it did · habit of meeting every d!'ta9hment of soldiers return­

justify total prohibition, beca,use I · undeFstand that ing from the Front, and of helping to ent-ertain de. there are certain advantages clerived by the State. from parting soldiers. I com e in contact wit h th.em as a tlw mal}ufacture of alcohoL ' representative of the Red Cross. -

295i}. Do- you know tlpt the Commonwe-alth derives 2971. W'hen you entert a.in d eparting soldiers do. you about £4,000,000 of re·venue eve·r:y ye.ar from the !Jus- provide any in toxicatin g liquor s ?-W e allow a little toms duties an9- Excise duties on beeFs and spirits?- mil(i ale. A·. i11an is to one or two glasses,

Yel}. . . / _b ut we find th

2959. !Jould not that r•evenue he obtained from o-ther- w1ll no t take_ anyth ipg but n on-intoxicating drinks. sources suc.h as a straight, eut la.nd ta.x of 3d. i1 n the £1 7 The ale is provided fqr the sturdy men. vV e contend - I do not know. thrut a glass of S• CIJ n d ale is n o de-trimen t. W e t ake

- 2960. Disregarding the question of revenue alto- care- t hat there is n o excess. \V-e always h av e a s

efficiency ,point of view, do you not think that we y;ould 2972. Do you also provide tea and coffee?-W e pro-be justified in C!ltting out the drink traffic during the vide s.oft drinks. . 1

'":1:l!r ?-No-, I do not think the disadvantages are suffi- 2973. Do you ever h ave an y one in ch a r ge of t hA

cte>nt to wal'Fant it. so-ft drinks to see t hat n o one drinks to excess?-No.

2961. Do you think that a pe.rson can liv<> well 2974. Po you pr ovide spirits ?- N0. refresh-

I!IJ.d be bc4l th y without t l].'l,i. u se peo ple ments are p rovid ed by t h e citizens of L auneeston, and

demopstr_ a teq that they ca,n live a long time wit.h- tti:ere· are always gentlemen present t o keep a v-e ry close

ouj:, it. ey e. on tbings.'

9z

--

/

182

2975. There is no one there · to see that they do not to grant any lioertce ' on good and sufficient gl'ounds, take soft drinks· to excess 7-N o.' Theoce' is e1nough fo[' but if a, lioense·e has observed the conditions of the Act all. I do not suppos-e any one man would drink half- during the year the.. Bench would :Q.ot refuse his, li-oe•noe , a-dozen bottles of lemonade·. The s:oft drink is put on unless a reduction of licences was obligatory. the table and the men help thems-elves.. -. 299.1. What reduction has taken place ·since the out-

2976. Do you. not think that / the gas in the soft . break of the war ?-I cannot call to mind any place

drinks is just _ as injurious as a mild ale 7-It might ' which has been closed since the outbreak of the war. __interfere with their digestive organs to a certain extent. 2992. In view of .:. the necessity for putting_ forward

2977. For whom is this entertainment our best efforts in conne,xion with the war, would you

F'or the r·einforcements who'cofil·e up · from Claremont be in _favour of cutting out anything that to embark at Launceston. . with the e.fficiency of the soldiers 7-Uhdoubtedly.

2978. You have had no trouble- with those who go 2993. Is- it not a fact tha.t the time of the Licensing to your ente·rtainments 7-LN ot the· slightest. Bench, of a number of pol'icemen, arnd of a nu!llber of

2979. Has boon any t'rouble among those who other men _wat

do not go to your entertainments ?-They are all under nexion- with the liquor trade.; and in view of thes·e military charge and they must go. There ar.e occa- facts, ..... do you not think it w.:mld be well to entirely

sions when we do not have sufficient time to entertain abolish the Licensing Bench, the import and exoise . ·the men bet.wen the time of the arrival of the train on beers and spirits, and the gran J ed

and the time of the, departur·e of the boat. On those to publichous.es, and! .allow, people, to and se.U

occasions _we give them refreshments on board the beers and spirits freely without any restraint whatso­ tendeiT' going dow11 the river. Sometimes the me:n go ?--lY.lost decidedly not. There is' already suffi­ dir•ect from train to the steamer.·and we. do not get cient temptation put in the way of those inclined to the opportunity of entertaining in the way we should be weak without talking of giving the further facilities like: to do. · that yo'\1 ar·e suggesting. _

· 298Q. Do you know whethe·r drink has any 2994. Do you know that in many houses wealthy

of the returned men to any ,extent 7-I think it has. people ha.ve well-stocked cellars of spirits, and

I ha.ve obg,erved seve•ral who are tfleatme:nt at the they have. , I keep a httle'

hospital who ha.ve taken drink to excess, but not any _ -2995. Do thpse people drink to e;xcessJ -Cer(ainly marked degree. . . " not. t hav·e ne• ve,r he•ard of or noticed. anything . of ,.

2981. By Senator Gmnt.-Do you license any wine that. , , / _

shops or grocers' establishq1ents in Launoeston 7-No. 2996. Then why do· you come to the' conclusion that -2982. So that there are forty-two hotelg, in it is necessarfto have all the paraphernalia of a Licen­

Launces.ton where people can legitimately s·eoure' sing Bench, import duties and excise uuties., police­ -That is: so. men and S\Couts to watch policemen for one class of

2983. Have you noticed any drunJ\::enne-!ls among the the c:ommunity if it. iSI not ne•cessary to have it con­ men arriving by train from Hobart -No. I have met nexion with t.he• wealth-y of the commun1ty 1-every detachment that has come up by train. Theire,, is no' clas. s; so fac r 1as I am aware'.

2984. Have you notioed any -drunkenness among the . 2997. It appears' to me that by­

men in Launoeston 7-Unfortuna,teJy there have be· e-11 laws, and rules · exist for the protection of the man one or two cas·es, but not more. · · "' who is. not able, to provide hims·elf with a private, oeUa.r,

2985. Are you in favour -.of ,dosing at 6 and in view of t·he fact that the ownersofprivate

o'clock 7-I wou1d ],ike to see as much of do· not drink to exoes·s would it not be a good_ thing

·drink as iSJ possibl·e', hut I ve:r;y much doubt wh€dier to wipe· out the' imporf, and dutie'Si, aboJish

it is a right move to olose hotels at 6 o'clock. It {lpens_ licences now being paid ,by publicans, and allow dnnk way for. th?se who a.re not quite .straigL:. t? to be fr,ee.Iy _ and sold just in the same

1:r:egular The charges agaJ.nst. h.ccnse

vwtua.Ilers m La'!;!'nceston. are few. I tJJlllK that Decidedly it would not be a good thing. We should

the of them are dorng their very 'be-st to oLsene remove facilities as muQh as we can from those who the conditions of .the law, althoug.h it is l.wrd npon not as s1trong. minded a.s 1 Any can have

them. Of cour;se m every community are a few his gallon or t1 wo of ale in\ h:iSI oollars. although · he

who not qmte a.ct up to :vhat they but cannot pe·rhaps. have' whisky OT' champa.gnel.

the of the hcensed I? along an to·-do -ma!ni keeps his stooki ;there · to entertam Ius

h?nest. endeavour to comply With the of the friends, and he has a r!ght to do so·. In ... the same

LlceUSilllg Act. . . . . . . way the artisan can keep nis gallon or t_wo of beer

2986. If the drmklng lia.bits of the' c1ty of Laun- and .entertain his friends. There is no greater re­

were fairlY: grea.t stamina and (:011- s.triot.ion imposed on him than is in:posed on

d1tlon .9f the soldiers here would be affected? to-do man. I -have neve·r known mstam.ices m which

-That goes without saying. Over indulgence in strong the latter has exceeded. drink must have a. bad effeot on the physlit::&.l, meiJtcd, . 2998. You are. oppoood to making drink easily ac-and moral faculties of any man. I. am not a .oessible 7-Undoubtedly. . . .

and I do not object to a man tak_mg a, glass of ale or 2999. you are in: favour of a.ll the -pa.raphernaha

whisky in Drink was' given to us for our -being teontinued 7-I am certa.inly in favour of having

use and not for our abuse·. rest.riotions1 on the drink traffioo. It should .be regu-

2987. Have nearly all th·e' in _ Tated by law. _ ,

temperanc.e barSI atta,ched to themslnce 6 o clock dosl'ng 3000. Would you be in favour of en'actin_ g a ·law has been m force 7--Almost all. of . of such a stringent. eharaot€il" one bre•a,oh would

2988. What payment per mght Is received by the mean the refusal to renew the hcence ?--No. Every men are stationed outside watching fo.r man should be an opportunity of

the pohceman 7-Ask me somethmg easier. himself. It would be very arbitrary ,to ·cancel a hcence

2989. Do you know from your ow:n knowledge that a for one offence.. _ · number of _ men conti1nuous;ly on the 300l. How many offences would you permit a. man

wa.tch out for the officials of the law 7--:I have to commit before cancelling his licence !-The• says

heard 1t but from my personal expenence I that after three offences the licence· IS automatiCally

have not th? knowledge of it. . . oanoolle.d .. ·

2990. Is It obhga.tory on the part o.f the Lwe.nsmg Cour't to grant a rene.wal of the licence' provided that 3002. Bij S enator B 1.uacott.-You are of. the hotelkeeper has observed the law during the that the closing provision now in operation gives

cedina- twelve months ?-Of courie the Court can refuse the dishonest hot·elkeepe·r an adva.ntae-e over the

;

,.

--,..,

589

1S3

honest map, 1-:-I think I can say " yes,." man wh<

ohsexves .. the, layv thoroughly is at a. djsadvant.a:g,e CQITl­ with ma;n who evades it, but so far as n:iy

official and personal knowledge goes there are not many evasions of the law in Launces.ton. ' · Could the .law be, mo;e easily enforced if the

penalt1es for evasiOns were greatly increased ?-No doubt it would- have a deterrent effect on those who were like,ly to -mak;e infra10tions of the law. · 3004. From your experience drink has had very littl-e · bad effeot so fa.r as soldiers are' colnoe,rned 7-Yes. I can

say that it has not had any effect to any gre,at I have seen several cases in which soldiers have drun to e.xcess, but I they arose from that pernici6us

system known as . "shouting." • are good

but they a,re not so strong in the head as they

tn1ght be. They d9, not like :to confeSIS that they do think a '"shout" should be re,turned. Beside,g

that there is a spirit of chivalry among and if

one says, " one with me," it goes all round. If .

I Legislature had adopted an anti '' shouting '' law

1t would' ha,ve• been a. in the right direction. The

"shouting' " system is having a greater effect on the returned soldier. Could an anti

1 ' shouting" law he adminis­

tered 7-I s/uppose· that like every other Act

it would be 3006. Unless the penalty was, made suffici·ently heavy7-That is so. 3007. We were informed by witnesses •in Hohar·t that civilians a,.re in the habit of following r:eturned soldiers

in hope {jf the re,turned soldiers "shouting " for

them 7-I have not. noticed. it in Launceston. 300.8. Is it generally the cas'e of the civilian en­

couraging the soldier to drink 1-I have not noticed that. I have not,iced soldiers togethe'r in bodies. They · seem to keep to themselves. I do not know that the

civilians offer inducements to the soldie,rs to drink to excess. · 3009. Why do you nat supply whisky or brandy at the s1 eud-offs to the men we thought a light

wholesome ale, for a phys,icaUy strong man who had , been in camp _for months was . both food and drink for him. Spirits have a contrary effect. 3010. You think that there should be some restrictio'Jl

placed on the sale. of spirits1 so far as. soldiers are· con­ cerned ?-I think that · every licensed victualler with proper feeEngs should certainly restrict the supply of spirituous liquor to soldiers whom he sees have had suffi-

cient already. ,

3011. Are you in favour of having one law for the soldiers and another the civilians ?-I do not see

why we should /

3012. F'rom your experience of soldiers are you in favour of wet canteens in oamps17-I should not like· to restrict soldiers to dry canteens altogether, but I think that great ca:r:e should be taken to proper control

over canteens, so that the men should not get drink too easily or too often. ,

3013. D q., you think it would be improvement if

there was a reduction in the alcoholic strength of a11 drinks 1-Ye·s. I fancy they ha.ve been' reduced some­ what since the' outbreak of the war. I un

5 per cent. of alcohol; do you think that be,er of tha,t

a1coholic s;trength Would be more suitable for soldiers and civiliaus1 than a beer 1-I think that a

wholesome light aJ.e1 is the be·st thing; an ale· containjng ahout 2 per cent. of alcohol. ·

3015. The,re is .2 per ce,fit . of alcohol in most of the temperance drinks ?-I do not know. 3016. Do you think that. the nationalization of the drihk traffic would have a benefkial eff·ect on the sol-_ diers and the general community ?-No. I ani not in

favour of nationalization in these matters. I think

they sliould he left to individual effo,rt. -3017. By Senator Guy.-What ha.ppens to the men after they land at Launceston before, they go on by

' /

train to Hobart ?-All the returi1ed soldiers from this district have to go to the Bas,e Hospital in order_ to report to a medica,} there. He de,ter­

mine·s whether they are to become inirria,tes1 at onoo or whether they can go _ to their homes and. re·port at a later day. Those are going on by train to Hobart

go straight to the station if the train is leaving very shortly, Red Cross ladies a,re waiting· to receive at the s·ta,tion at a coffee stall. Those men are not

examined at the Base HospitaL 3018. Have the,y the opportunity of roaming about the city 1-They mostly go away by the train on the same They do not remain in Launceston very

long .. 3019. They have very little opportunity of getting away out of c ntrol7-Not much opportunity. They ha,-ve a little, iberty granted to them so: long as they -turn up at the train. They must present their warrants

at the train. 3020. When you are entertaining departing soldiers the majority abs,t,ain: taking the beer that you

provide ?-A great number of them do not take it. 3021. Did you not say that the majority did not take it cannot say that the majority of them are

totaHe,rs, hut a fair of them are.

- 3022. What -p,ercentage 1-Roughly, about 30 per cent. of thep1 are soft-drinks men. 3023. Do you find that a number of the, men com­ plain to' you about their tre,atme1 nt of any kind I am one of the advisory committee of the hospitals a1 n:d convalescent homes here, and I frequently visit the Bas'e Hospital. The'y' do not complain to me.

3024. Do they complain of bummers chasing them around the town 7-N to me. 3025. you had any complaints that civilians

out of mistaken kindness ask them to drink 7-I have had no complaints from them as to that. ·

3026. Would . you remove everything that would tend to reduce the efficiency .. of the troops 1-Un­ doubtedly.

3027. If there was anythin:g in the way 6f prevent­ ing our putting forth our greatest effort in regard to the war would you be prepared to remove it-7-Most undoubtedly. VIe· should do everything we c.an to maintain the discipline and morale of our tro,ops.

3028. Have you no ticed that lVIr. Lloyd George has said in the House of Oommons' that in this war we

ar·e fighting Germany, Austria, and drink, and that th-e greatest of the three enemies. is drink ?_c._ I have noticed something to that effect. 3029. If drink is a very perceptible obstacle in the

way of putting forth our best effort, would you be in .... favour of having more restrictions on it ?-If it is a

fact that drink is OI'Le of the chief obstacles to our

putting forth our best strength, every effort should be made to restrict it. Our great eff·ort now is to win the war and to get efficient and able-bodied men to help to do so .

3030. But you think it would be too great a sacrifice to ask the general community to submit to prohibition during the term ·of the war?-That is very big ques­ tion. If you prohibition, introduce irre­

gular means of supplying drink, sly grog-selling, and all that so rt of thing, and drinking in houses. I am

not a prohibitionist. : : ' ' i

3031. But is it not a fact that 'already we prohibit to a certain extent?-We restrict to a c·ertain extent, but we do not prO'hibit.

3032. We prohibit during certain hours; does that lead to evasion do1 not think it does to any great extent here, but I do not know what it may do else-where. 3033. By Senator C?.lon el R?well.- W e no t P.ro­

hibit a man from gettmg a drmk at any time, seemg that he may buy liquor and use it for

can buy drink at the licensed house and consume It u I

..

home any t}p1e. What I understand pl'ohi­

OI twn to mean is " no hcence." - -

By the -Ghairman.-If you that drink

was with_ the efficiency 9£ the nation- in­

cartytng on the war, would you favotU pf·ohibitio11 ?-If I thought it . was the main factor. / ·. - -

3035. If you 'thought it Was a factot, not the 1nahl ­ factor, -vvould- you favour prohibition ?--I£ it was- a it would be up to us to restrict it as ·much -as

possible without prohibition. -- ·

3036. Do think that bee:v-i s of mote importance than _the Empue the Empire comes

first.

Captain William Hart Ropm, · officer commanding the La1tnceston Detachment of 6th Military Disttict -:- Gu_ ttrd; sworn and -examined.

3048. By the- Gha{rman.-=-:-Jfow long have you been associated with the Defence Forces'?-From before the outbreak o£ the . I went away 1yith the First Divi-sion · as a lieutenant. ·

3049. How long were you in camp with the soldiers before went away joined up ... on the ·20th

August; 1!h4; a1id we' went away the_ 20th October following. _ We were in camp at Pontville, · 3050. Ilb1v_ ri1any 1tteh wer.e· encamped -there ?-About 1,000. / - . - ' --

3037. You would not allow the men , 0 have whiskv 3051. :burmg your two .months in that did

at your · " you notice that drink _ was the cause .of lessening the

· of _ the men, or did it make' it more di'fficult

There wonld be no difficulty iil pi'ohibiting for the- to do thei1· work ?-No; because in those

whisky for , the sake of the Empire ?-N °· days there was very little-leave given, reave was

. 3.039. But would you to- SBe beer abolished given about' 24 or 48 .hours before a ±nan's depal'tur e,

that tlfe En1pire shoiJld- go ·down?-The _ according -to the distance he had to travel._ Again, we

Bntish race are beer drinkers. , J:rad wet canteens in those days; .and if the mefr wanted a

3040, Do they prefer beer to the Em1;ire hope glass of beer the.y ·could get. it in ,the- ev:.ening ... not. The Empire comes first. vvet canteen was m forcH until after the Fust Division 3041. !n the course of ;rema1:ks you were good - left. - .

m;ough tell us that spirits, beer, and whisky were .._ 3052. You have been to ,the Yes, in _Egypt

to us for our use, not abuse. Who gave us and Gallipoli,_ but not in . }..,ranee. I was on Salisbuty

whisky?- W e know who 1t 1 -vas that gave us wine, and Plai_ ns f0r abcrqt six months. - . .

I presume that whisky _would - come u nder tluit cate- _ 30n3-. 1,heze are_ wet canteei1s there ?-Yes; there are gory. We know who turned water into wine. , - wet canteens attached to ail the camps ii1 England. · 3042. Who gave u s whisky fo; oitr use ?-I SUPlJO'Se - 3054: Do you favour "\Vet canteens or dry canteens?­ we canilbt tyace the otigiil of tl good many things that·· I .f.avoti.r canteens if they are under m-ili- _

have been g1ven to us. . · / tary contrpl. _ _

_ 3.055. While you were at Salisbury' Plains the wet

3043. By Ser:ator Grant.-You say tha-t you are in canteen' w·Hs under military contror?-Yes. In the bat­ f.avotu of 4avmg wet canteeng under proper restric- _ ta1im1 to - I was attached we ran a proper reg1-twn s, and you a,re 1i ot in favour of having. dif- mental inst-itute, containing evei:Ything-a barber's shop, i'erent so f t!r as the civilian population are a bootmaker's shop, a tailor's shop, _ tables, and a

concerned.?--..:I am not in favour of prohibiting a man coffee where a man could get ' a grill, bacon and from havmg a glass of spirits in his own· house. eggs, and everything' he' required. They \Vere all under vVoulcl you be in. favour ·of establishing a. wet one control. A· 1::r1an hat!_ n0 excu se. to g-o . out o£ camp

like ?VJaddaillanna; where the hydro- or b-reak leave. He could get everything that he wanted •

electriC statiOil is .established, so th-a:t the 100 eil1ployees there. We found the 5!YStem worked very well . ther ::.e obtain .beei', a11d, pel'haps; sphi_ts __.tnidei' - 3056. On Salisl5ury Plains there weruld be several can­ ?-1:\..ssummg that "there was power to estab- , teens?-Yes; each Battalion Training Camp had its

l_ ish, a C ..§.nteen. up there with certain :r.:_estri'ctions, it own canteen. Thete were _ :fifteen battalions, _ . be better for th.e to al1o1v them to- get and there were fifteen canteens. _ _ '

- .resttlcvons than that they should · 3057. You no p_ ersonal knbwledge of

brmg 1t m surrep titiOusly m unknoi-vn qua.ntitie.s. · any canteen except your _

304K At shipbuilding yards, .the Sniall Arm; Fac- 3Q_58. And you saw po from your own can-

tory, or :S:enderson N avai Base, where lai·ge hoclies of , It was rather_ b.ene4e1aL . _ _ ·

are emplo,Yed, would yoti. .be in faV:our _of u059. there dunng t,he

es tabhslung wet canteens, under prop,er supervisitHl; fOI' _ 30?0. nHm to the and get the worse

the_ use of :i_he m en ?- I am only dealing witlr Iilen on · for J and sleep all ntght, and_ thus get pneu ...

activ.e service OT in military camps. Of I re- ?-I not know of case . . At <:iUr Wet

that the are drawn hom the ci,vilian _popu- canteen. thert:l was always one of the Provost Staff an_ d

, J a twn. In cucumstances that you speak of they' orderly on . had to be

could not estabhsh a wet canteen _ they co·· 1 J t b- visited by the and orderly officer, a.· n_ d .

1

- . ' ... u 0 es a ..M · · • · · d th · · fl f 1' · , - lis 1 a licensed hotel. · .t-.uah seen un e 111 uence a tquor was IIfifilEr

• diately taken to his qua:rtets. " .

3046. By 8en ato 1· B tLZaco tt.--I s it not a bet that in 3061. Drink was no hiftdrance diu·ing the two months , the of the men emplo,Yed 011 those wotks they can_ you were in the Pontville Camp ?-N-ot so far as my go where they like aftet their dajr;s ··wotk is 'done, command was concerhed. - ·

whereas men in a military camp cttn o:Jily g'et · 3062. Has drink intedered -tv.ith some of the ;eturned from camp when they are granted leave ?-That is so. - soldiers; have they longer in getting over their ill-- 3047. By- S enator Grant.- In view of the fact that nesses, O! has it interfered with .them .ns individuals or licensed houses are such lC?ng distailces fiom any of citizens ?-I do not think I am sufficieJ;Itly conversant

those works, making impossible for the with that .n1:atter .to ah. opinion, but if. they 1 did

men to get beer or spirits, would1 :you not, in fairness to here what done m 111 regard cases,

them, be prepared to establish wet canteens at the worirs or those that the medical n:ien consider should not take under proper ?-I am not -prepa.red to give ·alcohol, ·that is, make· them Wear a bhie band on theil'

an on that point; I am dealing more particu- arms, it would pr.event that g.oi't of thing. We have had

lady w1th the- aspect of the Military Forces. very few cases in .the l,ast few :h1oi1ths of returned men. under the influence. of liquor; but though a man

witness withd1·ew . might not be under the influehce of liquor, the mere

fact of his taking drink might affect. his _ultimake re- 3074. Has the contractor full contr'oi over the can-- covery. . . . teen ?-N 0; he supplies everything, burt I the .

3063. One of the functions of the Returned Soldiers are under the control · of the o:ffice i"s commanding the · Assooiation is to endeavour to get employment for re-' units which .are b.eing trained in the camp. They can - turned soldiers ?-I president of LauncesiQn sa.y to the contractor, "You cannot keep such-and-such branch of ;the association, and -that is our · endeavour. a.. beer." I ·wa:s se.cond in command in our battalion.

During the last six months we have placed ·about 36 Sometimes the officer the orderly officer,

rn.en in permanent employment, and about 100 :fn ·tern- the officer, and I would make an_ inspection. of porary .employment. That is in L.fl,unceston alone. It the whole lmes and the cap_teens. vVe wou ld go thPough is endeavour to the teturned soldier in every ., the · dr;y: can inspe?t the brands of . the goods.

way, to find employment fot him and to look after him There IS a · pubhshed. The medical officer

while he is in·_ town. \Ve have hostel here but we might say, "I do 110t like that brand -of fi sh. We want a; e 1p.aking a_n appeal to the on Anzad Day to su?h'-and-such a- kept in. this

provlsie suffiCient funds-to a club 8.9 that we th1-ng was s old at approved pnces, acco.rdmg to a hst

can look' aftet the retttrned men better. · ' published by the Army Canteens and . the

3064. They have .one. at Hobart?-Yes. - _ officer.comm{ln_ding could have anything contained in · · . . · that hst kept In 1the canteen.

3065. Do you thmk It a great advantage ?-A .very - .

great 1 adv.antage. vVe have only two small rooms here, _ 3075. ·The runnmg the :v-

2 ould be em-

and a number of returned n1.en take advantage of them. ployed by the contractor and paid by him .-Yes. L know several cases of men who have got under the 3076. The contractor did buying and the

influence of Drink has got hold of those men, ·-Yes. .

and .the _ secretary and I have, on behalf of the uniform, 307'7. He -vvould suffer any loss?-Yes. appeale

and the uniform. We could look aftm; men coming per-cent. ?-He had to furnish every month a statement from. country districts fa:r better than they fare in a . of his daily takings,' and out of those -gross takings he fif h b d' h had to pay arebate of 10 per cent. to the unit.

t -rate" oar mg- ouse or a third-rate hotel. - 3079. Does the contractor still go into the camps?-

_3066. The arrangen1ents made . in camp by the I believe so. Just befo.re I left England, the Army

YJvi.O.A. and the churches to provide places where Oanteei1s Committee to·ok over the canteens in every me:h can write their letters ·or read have proved_ an camp_ in England, but they were practically run on advantage ?-Yes; but I would far rather see a properly- the same basis as before.-run institution, su_ ch as we had_ in Englal}.d, where the 3080. D o y;ou find that the Governments-Federal

men are always under military control. and State-and private employers do their best to

3067. But the Government here have not subsidized you in finding work for returned sol

volumes. lie did not even have to go out of .the line made by the Government-:-and by private employers to to tpe Y.!.LO.A. for supper...or tea, because he could go give the returned' soldiers every advantage ?-Yes. We to the ·canteen and get it. Between pay-days, when the · merely recommend the men we know are reliable. We majority of men ran out ....:of money; all that they had do not recommend a man ior the simple reason _that he to do was to go · to the comp-any qrtarternHister and say, is a c.returned soldier. vVe must know something about "I will be in for supper." We lised to put out biscuits his capabilities before we ·recommend him to any firm

arid tea for the men who wanted it. We also used to or to the Government. · --

run conce:J.its. _ WB used t.o get a 10- per cent. rebate on 3083 . The1'e are some men whose nerves are so shut­ all that went through the hars 'of the wet ·c&nteen or tered that you would not recommend them ?-That is ovel" the counter of the dty goods store. That rebate so. - .

was paid to us by the Arn1y Canteens Committee. 3084. Are there some with whom you have to deal , 3068. How rong is it since you left Salisbury whom yotl would not recommend because of their drink- · a year. - ing habits ?-Yes. ,

, 3085. Do you know if there are any fot whom you

3069. Prior to that, the dry canteens were being run have found work 1vho have afterwards been dismissed by contractors?-The whole of the canteen was taken because of their drinking habits ?-I only know of one over by contractors, but they had to I'llh it under tne· case, that of a man who was addicted to drink before he 1

1 eg'imental institute. went away. · .

3070. I understood; when I was there over tweive 3086. Do you think that the drinking habits of Aus-motiths' ago, that the wet canteen was under the coiit_ rol ti'alians have interfered with doihg otu very best? of the military,_ but that the, dry canteen was run by con- - - I do not think so. tractors ?-The same contractor who had the wet can- 3087. Supposing that we were a total abstinence

teen had the dry canteen also, but they were both under nation, and that all the men who joined the· Army were military control. . I was there from June, 1916, until teetotallers, and ).'emained sp, do you think it would­ the March, 1917. have been of any particular benefit ?-! do not think so.

_ 3071. In -_J une, 1916, the dry ca:ntee1f was in the hands 0£ course; you might get a l o-t of "spongers" or "beer of the military autho.rities hogs" who join the Army, but I ·do not think they have

3072. Did no profits go to the contractor?- even made -any material difference. ·from the wet canteen, but he had to make a rehate of 3088. It did not interfere with the training of the

10- pet cent. to · the unit in the camp. Both concerns men ?-I did not notice it. Were managed by the Army Canteens Committee, but 3089. Do you think that our drinking habits as a the contracto.r had to :make a rebate of 10 per cent. to will make the task of repatriation a little more .

the · unit. · difficult?-I should not think it would. If a man· wad

3073. The contractor pi'·ovides everything, runs the addicted to drink before he went away, h e is inclined · canteen and takes the receipt?-Yes, and then makes a to drink when he comes back; otherwise, I do not think rebate ' of 10 per cent. to the unit. it would make any difference.

I .

186 ··

3090. Do you think that drink will have more effect on men who have suffered from shell shock?-Yes. 3091. A smaller quantity will them?-Yes.'

3092. If we were to banish drink from the com­ munity, would it be better for the sake of those men ?7-Yes; but I do not think it would be any good for the

community. ·

3093. You think sometimes a man is a little better for a whisky and soda?-That is why I spoke of tht1 blue band on the ami. There is a prohibition in

England against serving a man with a blue band. It protects him until such times as alcohol will not do him any harm. 3094. Most witnesses say that the same restrictio-ns should apply to the civilians as apply tO the soldier?--Plbsolutely. ,

3095. If you were to put that blue band on the in­ Valided soldier's arm, the treatment of the soldiel' would be a little different that of civilians, unless the

same: rule were Ina de to apply to the civilians?-No ; because the man with the blue band is still under mili­ tary control, and on military pa;}\. As long as he is on military pay, the public have to keep him, and..Jiquor retards his progress towards re'covery.

3096. For that reason, yon think it would be legiti­ mate to make a little differentiation in the case of the invalided soldier?-Certain ly. It is a matter of

- national finance. All the· time the man's progress is retarded by alcohol he is on Government pay. If the civilian disobeys his medical man's advice, it is not a question affecting the Government :finances.

3097. Suppose the soldier turns round and says, " I have been keeping you by :fighting for you, and now you will not give me _ a drink, while you allow the man in the industries preserved by me to have one" ?-He can take ·his place so much the sooner in ciYil life as n wage-earner, but as long as he goes on drinking he may be years before he recovers sufficiently to go back (-o civil life.

3098. Then you are of opinion that in some circum­ stances drink does interfere?-Yes. 3099. But not in the case of strong healthy men?_: That is so. Drink affects medical cases or those

wounded internally. -

3100. By S enato1· Guy.- Is there -fniy restriction in the wet canteens as to what drinks are available ?-Cer­ tainly. No spirl.ts are allowed to be sold in wet can teens. Beer, cider, stout, and cordials arc sold. Cordials can

also be got in the dry canteen. 3101. Is there any restriction as to the amount a man can take within 24 hours ?-It depends on his carrying We always had a military policeman or an

orderly, there, and as soon as a man was seen

to be getting rowdy, or it was known that he was under the influence of liquor, the officer in charge would go to the bar-tender and say, " This man is not to be served with any more drink." }/fen under medical treatment - and defaulters are. not allowed into wet canteens under

military control. 3102. Do not the Y.M.C.A. in Launceston supply some 6f the needs of an hostel?-Very few. They ha,ve only a couple of ·ooms for soldiers, where the men can get cordials, but they are open to all soldiers, and 'not

to returned soldiers only, the people, with whom our association deals. They do not supply beds. No doubt, they are doing a lot of good work, but they are not

supplying a long-felt .want in Launceston, which it is hoped our hostel will supply. 3-103. You do not think that it is necessary for our prosecution of the war to have any 'further restriction on

the drink trade than at present exists ?-I would like to see tlie hour,s of closing altei'ed to the hours in force ' in England. !l'he hotels there open from 12 noon to

21Q p.m., and in the evening from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock.

3104. What views do you hold in ·rega-rd to anti­ " shouting" ?__:__I do not think an law

would make any difference. I beheve that 1t I S very easily evaded. '

3105. By Eenator· Colonel Rowell.-Did .iou find that to be the case when you were in London?-I would not like to express an opinion on that matter. An

Army -officer is 'never guilty breaking any law or any regulation. 3106. Were you at Mena Camp, in Egypt?-Yes. 3107. Did you have a wet canteen there?-Yes.

3108. Was it run on different principles from the wet canteen at Salisbury Plains ?-:-I have no practical ex­ perience of the canteens in Egypt. e did not have

a battalion canteen there. It was a regimental canteen. 3109. The canteens were open at certain hours of the day?-Yes. · 1 ' .

3110. The wet r.anteens in were only open at

certain hours?- Yes; from 12.45 p.m. to 1.45 p.m., and then again from 6 p.m. to () p.m. The coffee bar and the dry canteen were practically open all day long. 3111. While you were in Egypt was there a deal of excessive drinking at the wet canteen m

my command. J do not think I heard of a case of

drunkenness which occurred through the canteens. · 3112. Did you have a of cases of pneumonia?

-Yes. 311.3. Were they attributable to drink ?-No. I attri­ bute thei11 to the fact that men going away on )eave in the afternoon would not take their .coats with them.

When the suns sets in Egypt it gets bitterly cold. -That was especiallv the case when we wm;e there, and,_as it took about a;1 hour's run on the uamcar, men without their coats suffered considei·ably: -

3114. You · stated that .there were restrictions on soldiers suffering from shell shock; yon spoke of their wearing blue bands on the arms; would you apply similar restriction to a civilian who was a " boozer " -?­ That is already.done in the case of ehe civilian. A hibition order' can be taken out against him. ·

3115. But before that is done it has to be proved

that the 'man is an habitual drinker?__;That is so. I

was referring practically to men who had in­

valided, _ in whose ' cases alcohol would retard the pro­ gress of their recovery. 3116. And their regulations dealing those men? - I suppose so, but a man may be under influence

of liqum: and yet he ·could not be dealt w1th by the regulations, ulthough the liquor he had had may do him harm. 3117. }las the drink done any harm to the Forces so

far as their efficiency is concerned,-?- I am sure it has not. 3118. Bu Senator Gmnt.- Are you in favour of dif­ ferential treatment between the soldier and the civilian

with regard to the drirrk traffic ?-Only in the case that 1 have mentioned. 3119. Civilians can secure at all times ?-Yes.

3120. Yet you are in favour of being

deprived of the right to dispense sp1nts to ?-

1 am. · <· ?1

3121. You realize that, prior to their enlistment, some soldiers were inclin ed to disregard the weak, \Vashy, and 1 :i nsatisfactory bee r that is sometimes dis­ pensed, and preferred to have a well-matured palatable

whisky, and that they would undoubtedly prefer to have that liquor i11 the canteen rather than be obliged to drink squa·sbes and the other - beverages, or alleged beverages, supplied to them ?- It has always been a re­

coguisecl thing in the Army that no hard liquors are to be sold in the_ canteen. A man may have two or three glasses of beer, and jt is not likely to do him any harm. If a man starts on whisky, one does not know where- he will stop. Whisky will do more damage than beer.

.. 593 .

137

3122. But if it i .-. supplied under military control, would the supply not be cu t off before he became

danger·ous ?- Yes; but it is goiug to do him mo;.·c harlll than beer would. . • '

3123. What is in the whisky that is going to do more harm to him than the beer?-That is more than I know, hut from my experience of life I know that a man 1vho has had a few drinks of whiskies, though he may not

be what we call UJtder the influence of liquor, is not as .fit for work in the morning as the man who has had ,same amount of beer. He cannot do the .sa;;_1e

amount of work if he goes straight on to duty. The effects of whisky last longer. 3124. The man who has been drinking whisky has 1

the privilege of remaining longer under the influence than the man who. has "been drinking beer ?- I do not know that it is a privilege. 3125. You are in favour of preventing a man when

he enlists in the serviee of his country fr01j1-enjoying the privilege of drinking whisky, although the civilian who has 110t enlisted is .still entitled to get his whisky as frequently -::rs he likes; do you uot think that that is a great to the soldicr?-=-N o. A soldier can­

no t expect exactly the sam e conditious as a civilian. It is a recognised practice in the Army that no spirits are sold in a wet canteen. 3126. Did you -sample the . beer aud whisky sold i u Egypt ?-Yes. '

3127. I s it a fact that some of 'the whisky supplied at Shepheard's was of very inferior quality, and that, as a result, a riot took place ?-I was not there du'ring the t wo riots.

3128. Have you heard that a riot took place at Sh ep­ heard's ?-No. It is the first that I have heard of it.

There vvere two riots in Cairo at different times, but not a t Shepheard's. 3129. What caused the riots ?-I have not the faintest idea. I was at Lenmos Island when the first took place, · and I '\,Vas on Gallipoli when the second took place.

3130. Do you know that the soldiers were debarred from visiting Shepheard's?-Yes, both Shepheard's and the ContinentaL 313]. Could the ·Ollicers procure spirit s at both those

places?-Yes, until the usual closing ) 1otu, ' which , I think, was 9 3132. Was it not recoguised that the whiskies and other spirits at both those places ·were the best pr:ocur­ able at Cairo ?-I would nbt like to say so, b.ecause

there were several good places in Cairo besides Shep-heard's and the Continental. ·

, 3133. But the soldiers were debarred from both those places?-yes. It was not so mucli"'a matter of drinking as a .matter of discipline, but practically the liquor at the hotels all round the square was good right

3134. Do y·ou k:now of any case where any Tasmanian has been prevented from going to the Front on account of the excessive use of drink, or of any case in his departure has been delayed from he same cause?- '. No. The only experience I have had of the departure

of tr,oops from Tasmania was when the First Con­ tingent left _here the 20th October, 1914. When

leave was' granted from the ship and the camp, I had charge of the Hobart picket for two days prior to the departure of the transports, and we only Tounded up two men· who were under the influence of liquor. I do not think they would call them drunk under the civil law. ' 1

-3135. So that, so far as the Tasmanian men are con­ eerJl ed, the adverse effects of dr-ink have been so small as to be infinitesimal ?- Ab solutely, we have no trouble at alL ,

3136. Was there a wet canteen on the transport?- ­ Yea.

3137.' Were there any cases of drunkenness ?-It was -practically impossible to have any. Each man >Vas only allowed a pint of beer a day, and it was only issued to the messes. Each platoon handed in the number .,.--·

of men who required their pint of beer, imd the beer was issued in bulk and paid for. That was at dinner-time or just before dinner. It is different in the can­ teens on shore, where a man can keep on drinking.

313'8. If a soldier possesses the capacity,

he can get considerably more than one drink in a wet canteen i-n England?-Yes. 3139. It is only when, in -the opinion of the re­ sponsible officers, a man begins to show signs o£- being a hit unsteady that he is prevented from getting any more ?-No. The _officer may say, "I think he has h ad enough." It is a matter for the responsible officer to

say when a man should go out of the canteen. 3140. Otherwise he can stay there ?- Yes ; man.)' of them prefer to stay in the canteen after a field clay and discuss the tactics. I can give a practical in­

stance of that. Each man, on his arrival in England, · is entitled to four days' disembarkation leave. At one time we had 150 men who, after their equipment had been checked and after medical inspection, were

given immediate leave. Out of that number three men were afterwards apprehended in London by the military police for drunkenness. Our usual practice was'to keep / the men in camp for three weeks before we gave them disembarkation leave, but during the time I was on duty in England, although we may have had one or two other cases, we did not have any' one appre­

hended in London for drunkenness, except those three I have mentioned. 3141. How long were you on Gallipoli ?-For thirteen hours on the first occasion, and for three and a half

monthB on the second occasion. •

3142. Was a rum ration issued-?-Yes, and Yery bene-ficial it was. .

3l43. Did you see any ill-effects froni" it ?-None at all. It was rather the reverse. ' 3144. What kind of rum was it ?-I .do not know the brand, but it was a good rum. .

3145. Were any other spirits issued ?.:_No, except under medical control. 3146. Would you be in favour of a rum ration being issued at the wet canteens on Salisbury Plain last thing at night in order that men might get to bed warm and sleep soundly?-If they had had a very hard -field day, comparing with the conditions in France, I would say "Yes," but in. England a man had everything he

required. He could have a cup of coffee before going to bed or his glass of beer. Rum would not be so

necessary as on active service, when a man must have some stimulant. 3147. As a matter of fact, a man . could not get a

rum ration going to bed on Salisbury N o;

because i t was not so necessary there. 3148.- Not after a hard, strenuous, cold day's work in the field?-No, because he could go to the canteen and get a cup of coffee, cocoa, or tea, and biscuits all d cheese. On service you have nothing but your drop of rum. _

3149. I s it not possible, even on active service to provide hot coffee ?- Not unless you happen to be in' the back lines. I was in the front lilie -for three mouths on stretch, and I never got any spirit' except the rum

rat ion. 3150. In such circumstan ces the ru m r ation 1s is. - .

3151. You could not get more than one r ation of rum ?-N·o. The men :file past, and each man gets his issue under the direction of the ·officer. N o doubt the officer keeps what is over.

I

3,152. yoli _opposed to. the "shouting,-, system? 3170. You do not,- froJP-- your own observation, know what I have heard as to how the law is evaded' whether drink has had _any effect on· the efficiency or

I ·thii1k it rhake very little diffe;·ence if an morale of soldiers ?-Not in connexion witli their ser­

shotltihg" Act . was brought into force. I doubt vice; of course, as a Gitizen know just what their

"«thether it WoUld lesse11 the drinki11g that goes .dii . is about the t0Wl1, .

3!53 .. W it .?'e a _ go.?d if our drinking 3171. I take it t1rat your opiniQn is that drink does

habits 1n ClVIhan hfe were serwus]y cut dovvn ?-Un- lessen the efficiency of ·any ma!1 in· his

doubtedly. - wotk?--Yes. · -

. 3154. You know that it is a frequent occurrence for ·3172. You have _seen -a number of soldiers who lfave or four. men to enter an. !to tel, a:J?.d they all go, been taking drink?-Yes.

nght round With the request, "What will you have"?"- - 3173. You could not say what the percentage would J have about it. · No doubt an "anti-shouting" be to the number of men who have left Launceston ?___:_

law w?uld cut down- a-lot of drinking that goes ori in No. " stich circumstances those you have mentioned. "' · 3174. Could you say _how many you have seen the

_ 3155. If the were made- heavy enougn worse for liquor?'-No.

- d? yo?- see any difficulty in bringing an Act of that 317 5. You admit--that there ·must be a certain per-

mto ·Operation it were carried out properly, cent,:age of men under the influence of dr1nk before

lt would be a good thing. . : - - they will interfere with the efficiency of a large body?

· 3156. By Senator Buzll.c6tt.-Did you go ashore -at _ -That_ is so. , . . .

aily of the ports orcall on your way out?-We called_ 3176. From those Y?U have would you t.hmk the at Sietra Leone - Durban and Fremantle and dise:t:n- __ percentage suffiCient . to mterfere ?-I thmk that barked itt I ;vas ·.0n a with sick there wou-ld be number to interfere - from

and wounded men on board. _ those I have seen in to those who come from

3157. Were the hotels closed at any of the ports of -Laur;,ceston. _ . . ' .

call?-They Were closed at Durban and Frerhantle. .3117. Have you seen any re,turned men whom you We did no:t go ashore at Cape Tovvn. . _ have been by ·

- 3158. Did you go ashore at Fremantle we , - 3.1. 78. Have J:OU . seen :nvanded men under the

were the1'_ e foi· a day and a half. . . mfluence of ?-I.t Is difficult to say. whether a

3159. During the time you were there did the soldiers man IS mvahded o:· not. Occaswnally you

get d:dnk ?-yes. · · - see returned men under the Influence of liquor.

- _. 316_ 0. Where did they get it have not the faintest 79. ,Do know to what exte?,-t _private people,

Idea. - . · the Y.M.G.A., ·the clJ.urches, or temperance organi.Za-

3161! Did they get worse for liquor ?-No. I did provisio:r: f?r ·dealing with

not see a case o( drui1k{3nness among the men returning by way -of estabhsl?-mg an hostel ?-I thmk . to the .boat. vVe got all our men back. / they make that provision in .

. 3162. _ Whe a transport _is coming into a port with - 3180. what - extent ?-:The clajm that

siCk and wounded soldiers on board do you think it _is- make _ 1s adequate? but I cannot

Iiecessary t0 close the hotels there should not think give. the opmiOn of the men concet ned m_ the matter. so, but I would not like to express an opinio!l on the In a general view ·you take the stand that

matter, because I have not had the 0 £ going · drmk the . community adversely,. and theref'ore

ashore at a port where the hotels were open. N 0 doubt affect .the Army ·a-dversely ?-That.I!' my strongest the closing of the hotels was due to the behaviour of pOint. Drink affects man - who touches it ad-

. previo_ us troops, outward or inward pound. . - The man who g.ets h?ld -?f a J;etUI_'Iied

3i63. Do yoy. not think that the men who are comi_ ng ana has a_ good time -with hnn .... Is one whom

back'- from the Front suffering from shell.:shock are dnnk , _ . _ _

more to be affected if the"y drink spirits _ ?-Yes. _ 3J82. It IS from your of

31_ 64. Iii that ":'Enild it not be necessary to :the effect or; that you know that drmk has

empl6y some l8Sti'lction in regn.rd to their-opportun.ity mte:f.ered but merely the 9eneral

to spirits ?-Oettain1y. questmp. that does Interfere adversely with the

. ·. 3lB5. Ttoopships ii1ay be coming in tw.o ·or three Army?-That ts _so. a and unless something is done the hot'els 3183. By Sendto1· _you . say that

n1ay be closed . for irtost o£ the time; have you ever you have twen or thirty soldiers the worse for

giire!l atty a§ lo the best means of over- - drink ?-I have 'never tried to .tabulate them; I have

connng that difficulty have given no thought to - simply noticed tnem, but judging by statements that that . _ , . . . have come to, me, as secretary; there must have been

. 3166. You have referred to the evasion of- the dif- more. I would not like to be pinned ·down tQ any par-fe1'ent Acts restricting-the of liquor; if the penalty t:lcula.r number from my own Pfll'Sonal observation. were suffic!enp;y dq Y?U not think it would . 3184. During th .... p articular night you might see the

be possible to A.dniihi&ter any of tliose Acts ?-It would same man several times may be _ .

be. . 3185. How many retur:ged .soldiers could you say

3167. Therefore it is the fault o.f the framing of the you have· seen the worse for drink ?-About twenty: Acts that prevents - their administratio11 ?-I am not 3186. Most of -the returned soldiers ··come through an on the matter, but I should say that if but. they do not stay here very

you make the penalty heavy enough no man will take long. the of trying to evade law. 318.7. Do_ you think . that Jhe"' civilian is largely re-

3168. you personally interested in the hotel !!!ponsible for the drinking habits of the returned

· business ?-No. · ' soldiers ?-Yes·.

- -3188. In Hobart we were informed that it was the

Frederick . Henry Ralph, Aocourttant; of the other way about, and that civilians were in the habit

Temperance Alliance in Launceston, sworn and of following returned soldiers about in the hope that examined. .- they ·would " shout " for them; does the s_ ame thing

3169. Bu the Ohairman.-To what extent have you apply in Lalinceston ?-I- do not think so. I should cotne in contact with soldiers as an be sorry to see a restriction placed . on the

citizen. :: soldier that is not placed