ParlInfo - Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance - Reports - Together with Hansard record of proceedings - Committees A, B, C, D, E and F on Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for year 1980-81 and departmental expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1980 (Print Version)

Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance - Reports - Together with Hansard record of proceedings - Committees A, B, C, D, E and F on Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for year 1980-81 and departmental expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1980

The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, E and F

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Estimates for year 1980-81 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for year 1979-80

September 1980

Brought up and ordered to be printed 11 September 1980

Parliamentary Paper No. 231/1980

The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, Eand F

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Estimates for year 1980-81 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance

for year 1979-80

September 1980

The Commonwealth Government Printer Canberra 1981

Â© Commonwealth of Australia 1981 ISBN 0 642 05905 5

Printed by Authority by the Commonwealth Government Printer

CONTENTS

Page

1. Resolutions of the S e n a t e ........................................................................ 1

2. Estimates Committee A R e p o r t .................................................................................................. 5

Minutes of Proceedings 1980 29 August 1980 9

1 September 1980 .......................................................................... 12

2 September 1980 .......................................................................... 15

3. Estimates Committee B R e p o r t .................................................................................................. 19

Minutes of Proceedings 1980 28 August 1980 29

3 September 1980 30

4 September 1980 32

9 September 1980 35

10 September 1980 36

4. Estimates Committee C R e p o r t .................................................................................................. 39

Minutes of Proceedings 1980 29 August 1980 43

1 September 1980 46

10 September 1980 50

5. Estimates Committee D R e p o r t .................................................................................................. 53

Minutes of Proceedings 1980 29 August 1980 57

1 September 1980 61

6. Estimates Committee E R e p o r t .................................................................................................. 67

Minutes of Proceedings 1980 3 September 1980 71

9 September 1980 80

7. Estimates Committee F R e p o r t .................................................................................................. 83

Minutes of Proceedings 1980 3 September 1980 89

4 September 1980 95

10 September 1980 97

lii

RESOLUTIONS OF THE SENATE

RESOLUTION PASSED ON 21 AUGUST 1980

(1) That the following Senators be discharged from further attendance on the Committees indicated: Estimates Committee Aâ Senator Martin

Estimates Committee Eâ Senator Collard (2) That the following Senators, having been duly nominated in accordance with Standing Order 36AB, be appointed members of the Committees indicated:

Estimates Committee A â Senator Watson Estimates Committee Eâ Senator Thomas

RESOLUTION PASSED ON 26 AUGUST 1980

(1) That the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981 be referred herewith to Estimates Committees for examination and report. (2) That, pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate of 16 November 1978,

departmental expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Year Ended 30 June 1980 be referred to Estimates Committees for examination and report prior to its consideration in Committee of the Whole. (3) That the Committees report to the Senate on or before Thursday, 11 September

1980.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee A has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 26 August 1980 the Senate referred to the Committee the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981 relating to the following Departments:

Parliament National Development and Energy Prime Minister and Cabinet Treasury

Education

2. The Committee has considered these Estimates and received explanations from the President of the Senate (in relation to the Parliamentary Departments) and the Minister for National Development and Energy and Officers of the Departments. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled herewith, for the consideration of Appropriation Bill (No. 1)

1980-81 and Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1980-81.

3. Further written replies to questions are awaited and, on receipt, will be distributed to members of the Committee and where appropriate to other Senators who participated in the Committeeâs examination. The replies will also be incorporated in the Committee Hansard.

4. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters arising from its consideration of the Estimates:

(a) Parliament â¢ Accommodation. The Committee again notes with concern that the problems associated with the location of parliamentary staff away from Parliament House remain unsolved. The Committee noted the Presidentâs

assurance that no major determinations on the location of parliamentary staff and Library Services will be made before Parliament reassembles next year. The Committee wishes to express its strong support for the action taken by the Presiding Officers in requesting the Government to make West Block

available to the Parliament until such time as the New and Permanent Parliament House is completed. â¢ Staffing o f Estimates Committees. The Committee again draws the attention of the Senate to the unsatisfactory staffing arrangements for

Estimates Committees and the effect that the present temporary measures are having throughout the Senate. The Committee requests that the President ensure that the matter is drawn to the attention of the Senate Select Committee on Parliamentary Appropriations and Staffing.

(b) Identification o f expenditure on specific programs and projects The Committee again encountered a number of instances where it is not possible to identify the total expenditure on specific projects or programs as the expenditure involved is spread over a number of departmental appropriations,

a case in point being the overall cost of the CHOGM conference next year. Another example relates to the overall costs in connection with overseas visits

by the Prime Minister. The Committee recommends that the Department with the prime responsibility for a program or project provide a summary of the overall cost with cross-referencing to any other Department involved in the explanatory notes. (c) Australian National University Appropriations

At present there are two separate appropriations for the Australian National University. For the current year an amount of $650 000 has been provided by way of Special Appropriation under the Australian National University Act 1946 while a supplementary grant of $90 919 000 appears in Division 279 of

the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure. This situation has pertained for many years and the Committee recommends that the Australian National University Act be amended so that in future there is only one appropriation under Division 279 for the Committee to consider.

(d) Special Appropriations Following consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure for the Year Ending 30 June 1981 for the Department of Education, members of the Committee had a number of questions seeking information in respect of areas covered by Special Appropriations.

The Committee appreciates that these questions could be asked as general questions during consideration of the Estimates for the various departments being examined or raised and considered in the Senate during the debate on the Appropriation Bills. However, the approach adopted by the Senate

Estimates Committees in their use of the Special Appropriations to obtain information varies. In view of this the Committee suggests that the question of adopting a uniform approach be considered by the Estimates Committees Chairman or referred to the Senate Standing Orders Committee.

5. The Committee records its appreciation for the explanation provided by the President of the Senate, the Minister for National Development and Energy and the officers of the various Departments who assisted the Committee.

11 September 1980

H. W. YOUNG Chairman

Estimates Committee A Minutes of Proceedings

T H E SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 19

FRIDAY, 29 AUGUST 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met privately at 10.25 a.m. and elected Senator Young as Chairman. The Committee met in public session at 10.30 a.m. and Senator Young took the Chair.

2. REFERENCE TO CHANGES OF MEMBERSHIP: The resolutions of the Senate on 21 August 1980 discharging Senator Martin from further attendance and appointing Senator Watson were reported.

3. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Chairman stated that, pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate on 26 August 1980, the Committee would consider the following departmental estimates:

Division

Document* * Page No. Department Amount

A 8-10 101-105 P a r l ia m e n t................................................................. 20 246 000

B 6 800 P a r l i a m e n t ................................................................ Nil

A 86-89 430-432, National Development and E n e r g y .......................... 75 772 000

434, 436

B 19-20 891-893 National Development and E n e r g y .......................... 130 035 000

A 97-101 500, Prime Minister and Cabinet .................................... 60 252 000

504-506, 511-513, 515,516

B 22 911,918 Prime Minister and Cabinet

A 123-125 670,674, Treasury ................................................................. 298 593 000

677-678

B 26 961,962, Treasury ................................................................. 428 833 000

967-968

A 45-50 270-273, Education .................................................................. 479 105 000

278-279, 281-284

B 11 841-843 Education .................................................................. 48 921 000

* Document AâParticulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year 1980-81. * Document BâParticulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year 1980-81.

4. P A R T I C U L A R S OF P R O P O S E D E X P E N D I T U R E 1980- 8 1 -

PARLIAMENT Appearing: Senator the Honourable Sir Condor Laucke, President of the Senate accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f the Senateâ Mr K. O. Bradshaw, Acting Clerk of the Senate Mr H. Evans, Acting Usher of the Black Rod Mr H. C. Nicholls, Acting First Clerk Assistant

Mr H. G. Smith, Acting Clerk Assistant

Mr R. Thomson, Senior Clerk of Committees Mr T. H. G. Wharton, Acting Principal Parliamentary Officer Mr C. Pearmain, Administrative Officer Mr J. Dyer, Parliamentary Officer, Inter-Parliamentary Union Parliamentary Reporting S ta ffâ

Mr J. W. Roberts, Acting Principal Parliamentary Reporter Mr F. W. Temperly, Administrative Officer Department o f the Parliamentary Libraryâ Mr H. G. Weir, Parliamentary Librarian

Mr H. de S. MacLean, Deputy Parliamentary Librarian and Chairman, Steering Committee, Information Systems Study (Logica) Mr M. J. Bray, Senior Executive Officer Mr H. Knight, Finance Officer Joint House Departmentâ

Mr J. M. Jorgensen, Secretary Mr F. W. Bradley, Acting Chief Executive Officer Mr G. I. Hope, Principal Technical Officer Department o f Financeâ Mr R. J. Gowing, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply

Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Division 101-105â(Document A) Division 800â(Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Parliament.

5. P A R T I C U L A R S OF P R O P O S E D E X P E N D I T U R E 1980 81 â DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT AND ENERGY Appearing: Senator Carrick, Minister for National Development and Energy, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr R. N. Townsend, Acting Secretary Mr D. J. Ives, Deputy Director, National Energy Office Mr P. H. Langhorne, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch

Mr T. J. McMahon, First Assistant Secretary, Energy Policy Divison Mr. A. Manderson, First Assistant Secretary, Water Division Mr J. C. Starkey, First Assistant Secretary, Regional Development Division Mr L. F. Backen, First Assistant Secretary, Oil and Gas Division Mr F. L. Belt, Director, Australian Safeguards Office Mr Î. N. Lawrence, Assistant Secretary, Oil Industry Operations Branch Mr G. Cadogan-Cowper, Assistant Secretary, Energy Technology Branch Mr R. de Ferranti, Assistant Secretary, Uranium Branch Mr I. Morrison, Assistant Secretary, Radioactive Materials Branch Mr L. Turner, Principal Executive Officer, National Energy Research

Development and Demonstration Branch Mr J. Fielding, Acting Principal Executive Officer, Coal and Electricity Branch Mr A. Garran, Principal Executive Officer, Oil Industry Policy Branch Mr A. G. Bomford, Director, Division of National Mapping Dr A. R. Jensen, Acting Assistant Director (Operations), Bureau of Mineral

Resources

Australian Atomic Energy Commissionâ Dr G. L. Miles, Deputy Director (Operations) Mr A. J. Moulding, Assistant Secretary, Finance The Pipeline Authorityâ

MrT. R. Baker, Executive Member Mr G. P. W. Noble, Finance Manager Mr G. J. Jones, Budgetary Controller Department o f Financeâ

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 430-432, 434, 436â(Document A) Divisions 891-893â(Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of National Development and Energy.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 4.37 p.m.

7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present; Senators Colston, Davidson, McLaren, Watson and Young.

H. W. YOUNG Chairman

T H E SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 20

MONDAY, 1 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.05 a.m. The Chairman, Senator H. W. Young, took the Chair.

2. P A R T I C U L A R S OF P R O P O S E D E X P E N D I T U R E 1980-81 â DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET Appearing: Senator Carrick, Minister for National Development and Energy, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr L. R. Pyke, First Assistant Secretary, Operations Division Mr A. J. Mann, Acting Assistant Secretary, Services Branch Mr B. D. Bell, Senior Executive Officer, Finance and Accounts Mr K. T. Lyon, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning (Air Force) Branch,

Department of Defence Group Captain M. Lyons, Director of Operations, Air Force, Department of Defence Office of National Assessmentsâ

Mr N. D. Mclnnes, Deputy Director-General Mr B. Cowman, Acting Chief Executive Officer Mr G. C. OâHare, Acting Executive Officer Office of Commonwealth Ombudsmanâ Mr W. Blick, Acting Senior Assistant Ombudsman Mr P. Gamp, Administrative Officer Australian Science and Technology Councilâ Dr R. M. Green, Secretary Auditor-Generalâs Officeâ Mr A. A. Taylor, First Assistant Auditor-General, Division C Mr J. R. Riding-Hill, Chief Executive Officer, Legislative Services Section Mr F. P. Campbell, Executive Officer, Finance and Services Sub-section Public Service Boardâ Mr B. R. Hamilton, Secretary Mr B. G. McCallum, Assistant Commissioner, Planning, Research and

Information Branch Mr R. G. Harvey, Assistant Commissioner, Management Branch Mr R. C. Harris, Assistant Director, Finance and Accounts Mr P. Forster, Assistant Commissioner, Staffing No. 2 Branch Mr B. T. Falconer, Director, Mandata Program Office Department o f Financeâ

Mr R. J. Gowing, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following divisions for consideration:

Divisions 500, 504-506, 511-51 3, 515, 516â(Document A)

Divisions 911,918â(Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet.

3. P A R T I C U L A R S OF P R O P O S E D E X P E N D I T U R E 1980-8 1 â DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY Appearing: Senator Carrick, Minister for National Development and Energy, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr J. D. Moore, Acting Deputy Secretary (Economic) Management Services Mr T. L. Jobling, Director, Finance and General Mr Strangio, Finance Officer, Estimates and Accounts Mr G. Walker, Director, Personnel and Establishments Financial Institutionsâ

Mr K. Kooymans, Senior Finance Officer, Banking Section Mr J. Fisk, Senior Finance Officer, Overseas Transactions Section Revenue, Loans and Investment Divisionâ Mr B. L. Lugton, Acting Assistant Secretary, Loans and Debt Management

Branch Mr G. T. Crawford, Chief Finance Officer, Capital Funds Section Office of the Insurance Commissionerâ Mr C. R. Hodges, Legislation and Appeals Section

Australian Financial System Inquiryâ Mr L. T. Rowlands, Executive Assistant to the Chairman Mr W. T. Chapman, Administrative Assistant, Australian Taxation Office Mr J. J. Daly, Assistant Commissioner, Management Resources and

Development Branch Mr O. F. Brettell, Senior Inspector, Management Resources and Development Branch Mr R. Cousins, Executive Officer, Income Tax Legislation Branch Australian Bureau of Statisticsâ

Mr W. P. McLennan, First Assistant Statistician, Co-ordination and Managment Division Mr P. G. Howell, Assistant Statistician, Management Services Division Mr K. S. Watson, Assistant Statistician, Population Census Branch

Mr G. I. Neville, Assistant Statistician, Manpower Branch Mr D. C. Leaver, Assistant Statistician, Statistical Services Branch Mr B. H. Crook, Assistant Statistician, Computer Operations and Softwear Branch

Mr M. Sattler, Director, Information Services Section Mr R. Leovic, Acting Director, Information Services Section Mr M. Griffiths, Director, Labor Force Section Mr K. Busteed, Director, Manufacturing, Mining and International Trade

Section Mr R. M. Walker, Director, Finance and General Services Section Mr S. J. Ridley, Senior Inspector, Finance and Accounts Department o f Financeâ

Mr R. J. Gowing, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply The Chairman called on the following divisions for consideration:

Divisions 670, 674, 677-678â(Document A)

Divisions 961-962, 967-968â( Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of the Treasury.

4. P A R T I C U L A R S OF P R O P O S E D E X P E N D I T U R E 1980-8 1 -

DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION Appearing: Senator Carrick, Minister for National Development and Energy accompanied by the following officers:

Mr D. M. Morrison, Deputy Secretary Mr Î. E. Hughes, First Assistant Secretary, Special Programs Division Mr C. L. Beltz, First Assistant Secretary, Education Planning Group Mr P. Bowler, Director, Office of Australian Capital Territory Further

Education Mr R. N. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Departmental Services Branch Mr E. S. Rolfe, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Student Assistance Division Mr P. B. Kearns, Assistant Secretary, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination

Branch Mr W. Bowron, Director, Tertiary Students Assistance Branch Mr I. Ward, Assistant Secretary, School and Aboriginal Student Assistance Branch Mr R. Richards, Assistant Director, Office of Australian Capital Territory

Further Education Mr B. Morey, Acting Assistant Secretary, Education Planning Group Tertiary Education Commission â Mr L. Hennessy, First Assistant Commissioner

Mr R. P. Lane, Acting Director, Management Services Schools Commissionâ Mr S. Thompson, Acting Secretary

Mr D. Marsh, Director, Management Services Commonwealth Teaching Serviceâ Mr K. Glover, Executive Officer Curriculum Development Centreâ

Mr D, J. Francis, Deputy Director Mr P. C. Maher, Assistant Director, Administrative Services Australian Capital Territory Schools Authorityâ Mr P. Thompson, Director, Schools Branch

Miss T. Reilly, Assistant Director, Finance and Supply Department o f Financeâ Mr R. J. Gowing, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.30 p.m. with Division 271 partly completed.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Colston, Davidson, McLaren, Watson and Young.

H. W. YOUNG Chairman

TH E SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 21

TUESDAY, 2 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.05 a.m. The Acting Chairman (Senator Davidson) took the Chair.

2. P A R T I C U L A R S OF P R O P O S E D E X P E N D I T U R E 1980-81 â DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION Appearing: Senator Carrick, Minister for National Development and Energy, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr D. M. Morrison, Deputy Secretary Mr C. L. Beltz, First Assistant Secretary, Education Planning Group Mr P. Bowler, Director, Office of Australian Capital Territory Further Education

Mr R. N. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Departmental Services Branch Mr P. B. Kearns, Assistant Secretary, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch Mr P. Shaefer, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch

Mr P. Richards, Assistant Director, Office of Australian Capital Territory Further Education Territory Education Commissionâ Mr L. Hennessy, First Assistant Commissioner

Mr R. P. Lane, Acting Director, Management Services Schools Commissionâ Mr S. Thompson, Acting Secretary Mr D. Marsh, Director, Management Services

Mr R. P. McNamara, Assistant Secretary, Programs No. 2 Branch Commonwealth Teaching Serviceâ Mr K. Glover, Executive Officer Curriculum Development Centreâ

Mr D. J. Francis, Deputy Director Mr P. C. Maher, Assistant Director, Administrative Services Australian Capital Territory Schools Authorityâ Mr P. Thompson, Director, Schools Branch

Miss T. Reilly, Assistant Director, Finance and Supply Department o f Financeâ Mr R. J. Gowing, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Committee resumed its consideration of Division 271.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Education.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 3.10 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Colston, Davidson, McLaren and Watson.

H. W. YOUNG Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee B has the honour to report to the Senate.

1. On 26 August 1980, the Senate referred to the Committee the Departmental Estimates for the year 1980-81 and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80, where applicable, relating to the following Departments:

Attorney-Generalâs Industrial Relations Employment and Youth Affairs Business and Consumer Affairs

2. The Committee has considered the Estimates and Expenditure under the Advance together with the Departmental Explanatory Notes, and has received evidence in relation to them from the Attorney-General, Senator Durack, and officers of the Departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard

reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1980-81, Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1980-81 and the Statement of Heads of Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80. Certain answers given in writing since the Committeeâs last hearings will be tabled in the Senate, and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committeeâs hearings.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters arising from its consideration of the Estimates and Expenditure under the Advance:

ATTORNEY-GENERALâS DEPARTMENT

(a) Advisory Council fo r Inter-government Relations The Committee sought advice concerning any financial contribution the Department may be making to the Advisory Council for Inter-government Relations, in view of the Departmentâs considerable involvement in various

Commonwealth-State relationship matters. While it appears that the Department has no direct involvement, the Committee was led to examine the report by the Auditor-General of Tasmania on the Advisory Councilâs accounts for the year ending 31 August 1979. The audit report was expressed in

damning terms which included the statement that: In view of the apparent absence of legislative authority for many of the financial arrangem ents and operations which have been undertaken by your Council . . . I consider it would be quite meaningless for me to certify the financial statem ents.

The Committee notes that the report, which was inexplicably late in being presented to the Senate, has been referred by the Senate to the Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations for investigation, but considers that this particular aspect of the Auditorâs report should be

immediately brought to the attention of the Senate as a whole.

(b) Legal Aid Commission (A. C. T.) The Committee pursued the issue, raised initially in its October 1979 Report, of the high cost of legal aid services in the Australian Capital Territory. In that Report, the Committee summarised factors identified by the Legal Aid

Commission, in its Second Report, as affecting its operations. Most notably, the Commission pointed to the high level of legal costs in the Territory as contributing significantly to the disproportionate appropriation sought by the Commission.

In evidence to the Committee this year, Mr Justice Rae Else-Mitchell, C.M.G., formerly the Chairman of the A.C.T. Legal Aid Commission and now Chairman of the Commonwealth body, expanded upon the reasons for the high level of costs. He indicated that:

There is a view that the legal profession in the Australian Capital Territory has been . . . âfeather-beddedâ over a long period of years. It has become accustomed to a rate of remuneration for litigious work which is beyond that received by practitioners in State capital cities.

He went on to say:

. . . because Canberra has been, in a sense, isolated or insulated from the general movement and competitive attitudes of the profession in other States, the levels of remuneration have been maintained at a higher rate.

In summarising his view that the level of costs in the Australian Capital Territory is far higher for comparable litigious work than in other capital cities, he added that:

At some point in the whole litigious process in criminal matters there is a tendency for trials to become prolonged to a point that in my day on the bench in New South Wales would have been regarded as quite unacceptable. The notion of trials for major crimes taking the time that they do in the Australian Capital Territory, compared with what was done in the Supreme Court and the Central Criminal Court in Sydney, to my way of thinking is quite absurd.

The Committee asked whether the situation had improved in the twelve months since its original report on the matter. The Director of the A.C.T. Commission, Mr P. Sharkey, indicated that the Commission had taken two steps to ameliorate the situation: first, that matters likely to cost in excess of $2000 and which were major criminal matters would be assigned to staff, and second, that, as from 8 August, fees for matters other than criminal mattersâfor which the Commission sets its own rateâwould be paid on the basis of 80 per cent rather than the previous 90 per cent of general scales of costs.

It appears, however, that the changes have caused some disquiet within the Canberra legal profession. The retiring President of the Law Society of the Australian Capital Territory, in a statement presented in the Societyâs newsletter (an extract from which was tendered in evidence to the Committee), included the following comments:

The view of the Law Society remains that legal aid work ought to be remunerated at 90% of normal solicitor-and-client fees. The Society does not accept that the percentage should be reduced to 80%, and certainly does not accept that scales should be adopted for legal aid work which in themselves represent something far

less than normal solicitor-and-client costs. For the time being, the fact remains that these scales have been adopted by the Legal Aid Commission. Clearly the staff of the Legal Aid Office (A.C.T.) are not capable of undertaking all of the legal work which is required to be done for those people who are entitled to legal aid. If those people are to be legally represented, the private legal profession must play a role. I do not want to be taken as saying to any solicitor in private practice that, because the scales are too low, he should decline to undertake legal aid work. At the same time, solicitors should not be expected to undertake legal aid work for nothing, or at a loss, when that work

ought to be paid for out of the public purse; and I cannot criticise any solicitor who decides that as a matter of economics legal aid work is not open to him.

The Director of Legal Aid has indicated that assignments will only be made to those solicitors who agree in writing to be bound by the conditions of referral and by the scales. I merely counsel all solicitors, before binding themselves to undertake legal aid work in any particular area, to examine the scales thoroughly

so that they engage in that work with their eyes open.

Following press reports of the Committeeâs hearings the Committee received a letter from Mr J. Faulks, Senior Vice-President of the Law Society, asking for a transcript of the hearings and predicating the possibility of making

submissions on the matter. It seems quite clear, therefore, that some investigation of the situation in the Australian Capital Territory is desirable. Indeed, Mr Justice Else-Mitchell, in evidence given to the Committee, endorsed the recommendation, made last

year, that the specific matter of legal aid in the Australian Capital Territory should be referred to the Standing Committee on Constitutional and Legal Affairs. While the Committee discovered, in the course of the hearings, that the Commonwealth Legal Aid Commission had received a preliminary report

upon comparison of the costs of legal aid through salaried services and through referral to the private profession, and intended to proceed with further study of this matter, Mr Justice Else-Mitchell pointed out that the matters he was raising during the current hearings would not be fully included

in the Commonwealth Commissionâs inquiry. However, the Committee also took account of the view expressed by a member of the Constitutional and Legal Affairs Committee that, while there is âsome considerable willingness to take the issue upâ, certain constraintsâparticularly in the area of the

comparative information required to undertake the inquiryâwere operating at the moment. The Committee therefore considers that, until the Commissionâs investigations are completed, the specific matter of Australian Capital Territory legal aid cannot be treated in isolation. The Committee proposes to keep the matter under review at subsequent hearings, with a view to making a further recommendation to the Senate when the position is clarified.

DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS BUREAU

The Committee was struck by the astounding estimating accuracy in the accounts of both the Department and the Bureau. This indicated that expenditure in 1979-80, even on many unpredictable items such as counselâs fees and power and fuel, closely matched appropriations. An examination of the information provided in relation to

expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance indicates that these unpredictable areas of expenditure were not subject to balancing by the assistance of further funds from the Advance.

The alternative possibility of balancing the appropriation estimates and the expenditure can arise where accounts are held out and there is a carry-over of expenditure to the next financial year. In the specific instances where it was asked whether there was a carry-over, the Committee was informed by the officers that there

was no carry-over.

While the Committee accepts the laudible notion that expenditure should not exceed income where this is possible, it was nonetheless puzzled by the congruence in

areas in which expenditure might reasonably be expected to be influenced by factors outside the Departmentâs or the Bureauâs control. The most spectacular example of this phenomenon, which both the Committee and the officers before it could explain only in terms of miraculous coincidence, concerned the fees of legal counsel engaged by the Industrial Relations Bureau, in 1979-80, the

Bureau expended $34 918 against a budget estimate of $35 000âa result which a departmental officer stated was âfortuitousâ. Yet in seeking the same amount of $35 000 for the current financial year, the Bureauâs explanatory notes stated: The amount sought is notional. The Bureau cannot estimate the required funds with any

real accuracy.

Similarly, the legal expenses of the Department itself came within $1500 of its appropriation of $155 000 for 1979-80, while the appropriation sought for 1980-81âwhich is not regarded by the Department as ânotionalââhas risen to $246 000.

One further example may suffice to make the Committeeâs point. Appropriations for office services for the Conciliation and Arbitration Commission in 1979-80 totalled $63 000; expenditure incurred amounted to $62 999. The explanatory notes indicate the purpose of the item:

This item provides for fuel, light and power, office cleaning, and associated office expenses for the Industrial Registries and the Commissionâs court rooms.

The unpredictable nature of costs for fuel and electricity in the past year leads the Committee to question the possibility of estimating to within $1 of the appropriation. In relation to the same item under the Industrial Relations Bureau, the expenditure of $32 887 fell only $13 short of the appropriation of $32 900. When questioned, departmental officers were somewhat vague in their explanation of the similarly remarkable results.

The overall consistency in the appropriation-expenditure ratio was a feature of this Departmentâs accounting which was not shared by any other Department which the Committee examined. Examples, taken at random from the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure, include:

Expenditure Appropriation Difference

$ $ $

Travel and subsistence Departmental ........................................................... 279 800 280 000 200

Conciliation and Arbitration ................................... 864 779 865 000 221

Industrial Relations B u r e a u .......................................

Postage, telegrams and telephone services

224 999 225 000 1

Departmental ........................................................... 138 413 138 600 187

Conciliation and Arbitration .................................. 499 991 500 000 9

Industrial Relations B u r e a u .......................................

Boards, committees and advisory councilsâfees and 172 494 172 500 6

expenses .....................................................................

Freight and cartage

101 947 102 000 53

Departmental ........................................................... 33 929 34 000 71

Industrial Relations B u r e a u ....................................... 11 500 11 500

When the general question of the remarkable estimating accuracy was put to departmental officers, the Committee was told: The expenses of salaries, boards and committees, general travel and subsistence relating to the Department and in all the other votes we estimated last year on the basis of particular

expenditure. That expenditure is monitored throughout the year so that at any time we know just what the expenditure is and what our commitment levels are. We have a running tally of commitments for accounts which have not been paid out which we know

are to be processed. Every effort is made to ensure that we receive those accounts in May-June so that we can meet the amount of the appropriation which has been allocated. We were very fortunate and, I suppose, very circumspect that in this, our first full year of operation, we were able to receive those accounts, to effect payment and achieve virtually

a 99 per cent result in most appropriations.

The Committee emphasises that it regards precision in accounting as highly desirable. However, such consistency, particularly in areas where expenditure is not easily controlled nor capable of precise estimation, suggests to the Committee that s ome f u r t h e r i n v e s t i g a t i o n â p e r h a p s most a p p r o p r i a t e l y by t he

Auditor-Generalâmight be warranted and enlightening in relation to estimating and administrative practices.

GENERAL COMMENTS

Counselâs fees One matter of principle which was raised during the Committeeâs hearings concerned the right of the Committee to receive details of sums payable to counsel engaged by the Commonwealth to conduct cases on its behalf. A detailed breakdown of

expenditure was made available to the Committee in relation to the alleged Social Services Conspiracy case, and similar details are expected to be forthcoming from the Industrial Relations Bureau in relation to the matters in which it has been involved. However, the question was raised by a witness and echoed by the Attorney-General relating to the protection of the privacy of individual counsel and the amounts they

receive when acting on behalf of the Commonwealth. The Committee agreed to consider this matter at a private meeting. After discussion, the Committee unanimously concluded that the right to privacy is supervened by the acceptance by individual counsel of a brief on behalf of the Commonwealth for which money is

appropriated by Parliament and payable from the public purse. The taxpayer is entitled to know what his counsel is being paid. The Committee points out that, in each case where the information was sought, the specific reason for seeking such information was clearly defined, and that injudicious or unwarranted invasion of

privacy was not the Committeeâs intention or practice. The Committee commends this approach to the Senate.

One-line appropriations A further matter, relating to the explanatory notes of the Department of Business and Consumer Affairs, caused the Committee some concern. In the course of its examination, the Committee sought details of proposed expenditure by the National

Companies and Securities Commission, the Commonwealthâs contribution to which is expected to be $950 000 in 1980-81. The brief explanatory notes gave no details of the purpose of the appropriation. The Committee appreciated that, at the current stage of development, and with the question of the Statesâ approval of details of expenditure

involved, details might not be immediately available; however, the Attorney-General and the Minister for Business and Consumer Affairs co-operated with the Committee to ensure that a substantial amount of information was quickly forthcoming. The Committeeâs concern, however, lay with an additional explanation of the

brevity of the notes, given by a departmental officer, who appeared to be under the misapprehension that a one-line appropriation did not require such detailed explanation as other items shown by subdivision.

The Committee, therefore, takes the opportunity once again to assert the principle, first espoused by this Committee in November 1971, that: there are no areas of expenditure of public funds where . . . corporations have a discretion to withhold details or explanations from Parliament or its Committees unless

the Parliament has expressly provided otherwise.

Auditor-Generalâs Reports In accordance with the Committeeâs undertaking in the April 1980 Report to maintain a watching brief to ensure that problems noted by the Auditor-Genera! are corrected, the Committee asked each relevant department to comment on progress

made to conform with financial requirements noted by the Auditor-General as not having been observed. The Committee was pleased to note that, in all cases, departments had actively engaged in the resolution of the problems identified by the Auditor-General, and awaits with interest his 1979-80 Report. The Committee intends to continue its scrutiny at all succeeding hearings.

Preparation of Departmental Explanatory Notes Since their establishment, Estimates Committees have taken steps to develop consistency in the provision of information to the Committees. To enable program evaluation upon an across-the-departments basis this standardisation is essential. Program evaluation is an essential area for future Estimates Committee scrutiny if this Senate role is to be truly effective.

While the Committee is appreciative of the efforts made by departments, under guidelines formulated and directed following consultations between the Department of Finance and the Chairmen of the Estimates Committees, the Committee notes that the presentation is not yet fully compliant with the agreed form. It is to be expected that all departments and authorities will by now be aware of and able to comply with the guidelines. Yet the Committee found that some explanations of past and proposed expenditure were so brief or vague as to be meaningless, and required time-wasting questioning to elicit details which could, in the Committeeâs view, reasonably have been anticipated, and the information provided in the Explanatory Notes or be readily available at the Committeeâs hearings. The Committee notes that the exemplary Explanatory Notes of the Department of Employment and Youth Affairs provide an excellent example of the required method of presentation.

Development of Estimates Committees Since the Senate Estimates Committees were established in 1970, constant improvements and refinements of their operations have been sought by the Committees themselves, and the Senate as a whole has generally endorsed such developments.

However, for all the praise that is given to Estimates Committees, there is a corresponding amount of criticism made of them. The criticism essentially centres on the point that, whilst Estimates Committees do a good job, they do not as yet fulfil their potential, because of the currently restricted approach to their operations, i.e. they do not go far enough in their examination of departmental estimates, nor do they have time to follow through adequately. The pressure for passage of the Appropriation Bills by a certain time necessarily constrains the present operations of the Committees.

Whilst the Committees now obtain automatically through the standardised explanatory notes a large amount of valuable information in the course of their examination of Appropriation Bills, the Committees, as Committees, rarely act on the

information received. It is left to individual Senators to pursue in the Senate information received at Estimates Committees. The practical constraints on an

individual pursuing issues in the Senate are such that the task is laborious, and subject to very real time and opportunity restraints. The Finance and Government Operations Committee has for some time been receiving references from Estimates Committees as the best available method of

providing some degree of follow-through. The task is not welcomed by that Committee, which is fully engaged on other references. This Committee has considered for some timeâas its most recent Report indicatesâthat estimates procedure should be ongoing, so that not only would estimates be examined, but also expenditure by departments and authorities on a

continuing basis could come within the Committeesâ purview, thus enabling a systematic program evaluation procedure. It realises, however, that the principal difficulties in undertaking that on-going function at present are that the Estimates Committees would require both a full-time staff and a continuous life if they are to

operate effectively. The need for full-time staff has been clearly established, and supported by the Senate itself. The Committee trusts that the appropriate staff may be appointed before the commencement of the next Parliament.

In relation to the full-time function of Estimates Committees, this Committee notes that the Senate has referred to the Standing Orders Committee the matter of modification of the operation of Estimates Committees to enable the continuing examination of departmental estimates and expenditure from the Advance to the

Minister for Finance. The Committee suggests that, in the course of its examination, the Standing Orders Committee also consider, as an alternative to expanding the functions of Estimates Committees, transferring the ongoing estimates examination and program evaluation functions to the Senate Standing Committees. Thus, these

Committees could become Legislative, General Purpose and Estimates Committees, with a division between their various functions but able to apply developed expertise, by both Senators and staff, in the broad area and, in relation to estimates, a capacity for specialist and ongoing examination together with general scrutiny.

4. In conclusion, the Committee expresses its appreciation to the Attorney-General and officers of the various departments for their ready co-operation in ensuring that the scrutiny role of the Estimates Committee could be both fully and expeditiously undertaken.

September 1980

P. E. RAE Chairman

Estimates Committee B Minutes Of Proceedings

ESTIM ATES COM M ITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 23

THURSDAY, 28 AUGUST 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 6.15 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The resolution of the Senate of 26 August 1980 that the Committee consider the proposed expenditure for the service of the year ending 30 June 1981 and for departmental expenditure under

the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1980 was reported.

3. OPERATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE: Discussion ensued as to the dates and times of the hearings of the Committee and the order in which the Departments would be questioned.

4. RESEARCH FOR THE COMMITTEE: It was decided that the research staff prepare material for the Committee and undertake any particular areas of research upon request.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The meeting adjourned at 6.25 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Rae, Evans and Tate.

P. E. RAE Chairman

24016/ 8 1 - 2

ESTIM ATES COM M ITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 24

WEDNESDAY, 3 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.04 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981, the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June

1981 and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80.

3. P A R T IC U L A R S OF P R O P O S E D E X P E N D IT U R E 1980-81 â ATTORNEY-GENERALâS DEPARTMENT Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Attorney-Generalâs Departmentâ Mr Î. T. Bennett, Deputy Secretary Mr B. OâDonovan, Crown Solicitor Mr C. R. Morrison, First Assistant Crown Solicitor Mr L. G. Glare, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Special Services

Division Mr L. Curtis, First Assistant Secretary, Federal Courts Division Mr J. Green well, First Assistant Secretary, Business Affairs Division Mr E. Wright, First Assistant Secretary, Legislative Drafting Division Mr A. C. Menzies, First Assistant Secretary, Justice Division Mr C. C. Creswell, Senior Assistant Secretary, Federal Courts Division Mr J. M. Carnsew, Assistant Secretary, Special Services Branch Mr P. Baskett, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr K. Nixon, Principal Registrar, Family Court of Australia Mr J. Ley, Acting Assistant Director, Australian Legal Aid Office Division Mr P. Sharkey, Director, Legal Aid Commission, Australian Capital Territory Mr Justice Else-Mitchell, Chairman, Commonwealth Legal Aid Commission Mr A. French, Director, Finance, Central Office Mr R. Venables, Acting Senior Finance Officer, Central Office Mr K. Crotty, Clerk, High Court of Australia Mr T. Polleycutt, Director, Automatic Data Processing, Management and

Special Services Division Mr D. A. Jessop, Senior Assistant Secretary, Territories, Federal Courts, Family Law, Territories and Law Reform Division Department o f Financeâ

Mr T. J. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 165-177, 191âAttorney-Generalâs Department (Document A) Divisions 824-825âAttorney-Generalâs Department (Document B)

The Committee suspended its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Attorney-Generalâs Department.

4. P A R T IC U L A R S OF P R O PO SE D E X P E N D IT U R E 1980-81 â DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Industrial Relationsâ Mr Î. B. Keogh, Secretary Mr J. P. OâShea, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr B. J. Frawley, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Labour Economics, Review

and Services Mr R. T. Coffey, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Mr F. B. Kovachevich, Director, Finance and Services Mr G. N. Patrick, Acting Assistant Director, Finance and Services

Mr J. P. Grant, Finance Officer Mr M. G. Coghlan, Deputy Industrial Registrar, Victoria Industrial Relations Bureauâ Mr D. L. Linehan, Director

Mr W. M. Maddigan, Senior Executive Officer Trade Union Training Authorityâ Commissioner Î. E. Heagney, National Director Mr P. A. Wade, Administrator

Department o f Financeâ Mr T. J. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 370-378âDepartment of Industrial Relations (Document A)

Division 881âDepartment of Industrial Relations (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure 1980-81 for the Department of Industrial Relations.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 4.50 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator G. J. Evans, Senator A. W. R. Lewis.

P.E. RAE Chairman

ESTIM ATES CO M M ITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 25

THURSDAY, 4 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.02 a.m. The Acting Chairman (Senator Lewis) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80âDEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND YOUTH AFFAIRS Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Employment and Youth Affairsâ Mr W. R. Clark, First Assistant Secretary, Management Services Division Mr J. Cooley, General Manager, CES Programmes Division Mr N. J. Clifford, General Manager, CES Operations Division Mr G. Rees, First Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy & Programmes

Division Mr J. W. Spencer, First Assistant Secretary, Youth Affairs and Projects Division Mr A. G. Abrahart, Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy Branch Mr B. MacDonald, Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch Department o f Financeâ

Mr T. J. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer The Acting Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 286 and 288âDepartment of Employment and Youth Affairs (Document A) Divisions 847-849âDepartment of Employment and Youth Affairs (Document B) D ivision 839 â D e p a rtm e n t of E m p lo y m en t and Y o u th A ffairs

(DocumentâAdvance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure 1980-81 and expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 for the Department of Employment and Youth Affairs.

3. PA R TIC U LA R S OF PR O PO SED EX PEN D IT U R E 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE M INISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80âATTORNEY-GENERALâS DEPARTMENT Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Attorney-Generalâs Departmentâ Mr Î. T. Bennett, Deputy Secretary Mr L. G. Glare, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Special Services Division Mr L. Curtis, First Assistant Secretary, Federal Courts Division Mr A. C. Menzies, First Assistant Secretary, Justice Division Mr K. Crotty, Clerk, High Court of Australia

Dr G. Taylor, Director of Research, Administrative Review Council Dr D. Edgar, Director, Institute of Family Studies Mr J. L. M. Carnsew, Assistant Secretary, Australian Institute of Criminology Mr N. Sexton, Director, Legislative Drafting Institute

Mr G. K. Kolts, Acting First Parliamentary Counsel Mr P. H. Bailey, Special Adviser, Human Rights Bureau Mr P. Baskett, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr A. French, Director, Finance, Central Office The Acting Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 178-190, 192âAttorney-Generalâs Department (Document A) Division 823âAttorney-Generalâs Department (Document B) Divisions 165, 173âAttorney-Generalâs Department (DocumentâAdvance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure 1980-81 and expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 for the Attorney-

Generalâs Department.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCEâ DEPARTMENT OF BUSINESS AND CONSUMER AFFAIRS Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accompanied by

the following officers:

Department o f Business and Consumer Affairsâ Mr J. L. Gibson, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Operations Division Mr A. G. Kerr, First Assistant Secretary, Trade Practices and Consumer Affairs Division Mr P. Kennedy, First Assistant Secretary, Corporate Affairs Division

Mr L. J. Willett, First Assistant Secretary, Industries Assistance Division Mr N. Lanham, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Tariff Division Mr D. Reith, Assistant Secretary, Appraisements and Revenue Branch Mr K. O. Stilling, Assistant Secretary, Automated Data Processing Branch

Mr J. M. Drury, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr J. L. Reilly, Director, Finance and Property Mr M. Mikk, Assistant Director, Finance Industries Assistance Commissionâ

Mr A. G. Koukoulas, Assistant Commissioner, Services Branch Trade Practices Commissionâ Mr S. Malouf, Secretary, Secretaryâs Branch Mr D. K. Gill, Director, Management Services

Department o f Financeâ Mr T. J. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer The Acting Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 195-205âDepartment of Business and Consumer Affairs (Document A) Divisions 831-835âDepartment of Business and Consumer Affairs (Document B) Division 199âDepartment of Business and Consumer Affairs (Documentâ Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure 1980-81 and expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 for the DepartÂ

ment of Business and Consumer Affairs.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 5.15 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator A. W. R. Lewis (Acting Chairman), Senator G. J. Evans, Senator D. J. Hamer. Senator M. S. Walters also attended the Committeeâs proceedings.

P. E. RAE Chairman

ESTIM ATES COM M ITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 26

TUESDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 6.04 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT: The Committee decided that, in view of the short notice given to consider matters of a substantive nature raised in the Draft Report, a further meeting was required before its tabling in the Senate on 11

September 1980.

3. ADDITIONAL REPLIES: Senator Evans commented on the inadequacy of a written reply received from one of the Departments since the hearings. The Committee resolved to obtain additional information from the Department concerned.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.20 p.m. till Wednesday, 10 September 1980, at 6.00 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator G. J. Evans, Senator D. J. Hamer.

P. E. RAE Chairman

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 27

WEDNESDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 6.02 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. MINUTES: On the motion of Senator Hamer, the Minutes of the meetings of 3 and 17 April 1980, 28 August 1980 and 3, 4 and 9 September 1980, previously circulated to Committee members, were confirmed.

3. ADDITIONAL REPLIES: Pursuant to the resolution of the Committee of 9 September 1980, additional information was received from the Department concerned as requested.

The Committee resolved that all additional replies received by the Committee from the Attorney-General and the Departments be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in the Hansard record of the Committeeâs proceedings.

4. FURTHER CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT: The Committee proceeded to consider further the draft Report of the Chairman. The Committee adopted the Report, subject to agreed amendments which are to be circulated to Committee members before tabling of the Report.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.30 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator G. J. Evans, Senator D. J. Hamer, Senator A. W. R. Lewis.

ESTIM ATES COM M ITTEE B

10 September 1980

P. E. RAE Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIM ATES COM M ITTEE C

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee C has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 26 August 1980 the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates for the year 1980-81 and the expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1980 for the following Departments:

Social Security Finance Health Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

Veteransâ Affairs

2. The Committee considered the Estimates and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance, and received explanations from the Minister for Social Security (Senator Guilfoyle) and officers of the various Departments. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Committee

are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1980-81 and Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1980-81.

3. During the hearing of evidence undertakings were given that additional written information would be made available to the Committee. Written replies to questions will be tabled for the information of the Senate, and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committeeâs hearings.

4. The Committee notes that the annual report of the Health Insurance Commission for 1978-79 has still not been presented to the Parliament. The Committee was told by officers of the Commission that the accounts for the period 1 July to 30 October 1978 were sent to the Auditor-General on 18 June 1980 and the

accounts for the remainder of that financial year were sent to the Auditor-General on 24 July 1980. The accounts for the year 1979-80 were forwarded to the Auditor-General in mid August 1980. The Committee was assured that the reports will be lodged with the Minister for Health as soon as the certificates of the

Auditor-General are received.

5. The Committee is mindful of the difficulties which confronted the Commission in the finalisation of its report for 1978-79. The Committee is pleased to note that the financial statements for 1979-80 are with the Auditor-General and that the delays involved with the presentation of the 1978-79 report will not be repeated with the

1979-80 report.

6. Annual reports of statutory authorities are intended to inform the Parliament and the public of the activities and financial statements of those bodies. Their usefulness diminishes, however, the longer their presentation to the Parliament is delayed. If a report is significantly delayed, then the Parliament should be kept

informed of the delay and the reasons for it.

7. Under Item 325-3-06 the Department of Health has estimated expenditure of $149 000 for drug education programs for the A.C.T. and for certain national drug education functions. A further $1 673 000 is estimated under Item 862-05 for payments to or for the States and the Northern Territory for drug education.

8. The Committee is concerned about the efficacy of the drug education programs funded by the Commonwealth either directly or through the States. Overseas experience has shown that many drug education programs have had little or no effect on consumption of drugs and some have even been counterproductive. Unless evaluation forms an integral part of each program, the Commonwealth may be

funding programs which do not fulfil their aims and which may even worsen the drug problem in Australia.

9. The Committee is not fully satisfied with the explanations given by the Department of Health on the extent and effectiveness of evaluation of the drug education programs and hence on the efficacy of those programs. Although there appears to be a growing awareness of the need for evaluation of the programs, evaluation seems to be receiving neither the emphasis nor the rigorous approach it deserves. The Committee was told:

The States have been told by the National Standing Control Committee that there must be an element of evaluation in each of their programs.

The Committee was, however, unable to elicit an unequivocal assurance that the âelement of evaluationâ in the programs would be aimed at determining whether the programs were fulfilling their principal role of reducing drug abuse in the community rather than merely determining whether the programs were carried out efficiently. If drug abuse is to be curbed then the efficacy of drug education programs needs to be stringently assessed. It is the responsibility of the Commonwealth in disbursing funds for this purpose to ensure that the State administered programs place sufficient emphasis on this important component.

10. The Committee will be closely examining this area of the Estimates of the Department of Health in the future.

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

Estimates Committee C Minutes Of Proceedings

THE SENATE

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 20

FRIDAY, 29 AUGUST 1980

ESTIM ATES CO M M ITTEE C

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.03 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Walters) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made an introductory statement and reported to the Committee that the Senate had referred, on 26 Augui*t 1980, the Estimates for 1980-81 for certain departments, and certain departmental

expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for 1979-80, to the Committee for examination and report.

3. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80: Pursuant to the Order of the Senate, the Committee commenced consideration of the Particulars of Proposed

Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1981, the Particulars for Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1981 and the Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1980 relating to the following:

Departmental Estimates to be Examined (Minister: Senator the Hon. Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, D.B.E.)

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

A 111 590-591 Social S e c u r i ty ............................................................ 346 562 000

B 24 939-941 Social S e c u r i ty ............................................................ 61 556 000

A 54 304-308 F i n a n c e ...................................................................... 38 566 000

B 12 851-853 F i n a n c e ...................................................................... 20 948 000

A 65 325-329 Health ..................................................................... 1 699 831 000

B 14 861-863 Health ...................................................................... 111 888 000

A 126 690-693 Veteransâ A f f a i r s ........................................................ 441 522 000

B 27 980-982 Veteransâ A f f a i r s ....................................................... 15 897 000

A 78 360-365 Immigration and Ethnic Affairs ............................... 88 330 000

B 18 876-878 Immigration and Ethnic Affairs ............................... 2 055 000

Document A 'Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981". Document Bâ'Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981â.

Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80

Page in Division Document* No. Department Amount

15 590 Social S e c u r i t y ................................................................................ 91689

20 940 Social S e c u r i t y ................................................................................ 1118 984

10 308 Finance .......................................................................................... 15 498

11 325 Health .......................................................................................... 256 652

19 857 Health .......................................................................................... 100 000

16 691-692 Veteransâ Affairs .......................................................................... 1 210 350

12 360-364 Immigration and Ethnic Affairs ................................................. 251089

20 870 Immigration and Ethnic Affairs .................................................. 190 000

* DocumentââAdvance to the Minister for FinanceâStatement of Heads of Expenditure and the amounts charged thereto, pursuant to section 36a of the Audit Act 1901, for the Year Ended 30 June 1980â.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTÂ MENT OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80 Appearing: Senator the Hon. Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Social Securityâ Mr W. Wryell, Deputy Director-General Mr J. M. Mahoney, First Assistant Director-General (Benefits) Mr C. A. McAlister, First Assistant Director-General (Development) Mr S. F. Skehill, First Assistant Director-General (Legislation and Review) Mr D. R. Scott, Acting First Assistant Director-General (Management) Ms M. J. Scott, Acting First Assistant Director-General (Social Welfare) Mr K. T. Kimball, First Assistant Director-General (Systems and Operations) Mrs Î. Y. Coleman, Director, Office of Child Care Mr E. B. Kennedy, Assistant Director-General (Benefits Administration) Mr C. Calvert, Assistant Director-General (Finance) Mr G. C. Pilger, Assistant Director-General (Rehabilitation) Mr A. W. Herscovitch, Acting Assistant Director-General (Research and

Statistics) Mr J. C. Schooneveldt, Acting Assistant Director-General (Secretariat and Information) Mr K. Horsham, Assistant Director-General (Subsidies) Mr R. Dowell, Director of Social Security, New South Wales Mr H. Armfield, Assistant Director of Publicity Department o f Financeâ

Mr J. L. Griffin, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on Divisions 590-591 and 939-941, Department of Social SecurÂ ity and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance.

Consideration commenced of the following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance:

Divisions 590-591âSocial Security $346 562 000 (Document A) Divisions 939-941âSocial Security $61 556 000 (Document B) Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance $1 210 673

Consideration of the Estimates for the Department and Expenditure under the AdÂ vance to the Minister for Finance completed subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Walters (Chairman), and Senators Bonner, Grimes, Mulvihill and Sheil.

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

THE SENATE

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 21

MONDAY, 1 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.05 a.m.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTÂ MENT OF HEALTH AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80 Appearing: Senator the Hon. Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Health, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Healthâ Mr C. A. Nettle, Deputy Director-General Mr L. W. Lane, First Assistant Director-General, Management Services Division Mr J. McCauley, First Assistant Director-General, Health Services Division Mr R. H. Searle, First Assistant Director-General, Quarantine Division Dr D. B. Travers, First Assistant Director-General, Medical Services Division Mr M. Carroll, First Assistant Director-General, Insurance, Hospitals and

Nursing Homes Division Dr D. de Souza, First Assistant Director-General, National Health and Medical Research Council Dr W. A. Langsford, First Assistant Director-General, Public Health Division Dr C. Selby-Smith, First Assistant Director-General, Medical Benefits

Division Mr J. W. Shaw, Assistant Director-General, Finance, Pharmacy Earnings and Projects Branch Dr K. W. Edmondson, First Assistant Director-General, Therapeutics Division Mr A. E. Shields, Assistant Director-General, Pharmaceutical Benefits Branch Mr G. F. Bunfield, Director, Finance Dr K. N. Daust, Chairman, Capital Territory Health Commission Mr R. A. Foskett, First Assistant Commissioner, Capital Territory Health

Commission Mr A. J. Tozer, Assistant Commissioner, Finance, Capital Territory Health Commission Mr M. Murray, Finance Manager, Health Insurance Commission Mr J. J. Bently, Manager, Industrial Relations, Health Insurance Commission Department o f Financeâ

Mr J. L. Griffin, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on Divisions 325-329 and 861-863 and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance.

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance were considered as follows:

Divisions 325-329âHealth $1 699 831 000 (Document A) Divisions 861-863âHealth $111 888 000 (Document B)

ESTIM ATES COM M ITTEE C

Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance $356 652

Consideration of the Estimates for the Department and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance completed subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

3. PA R T IC U L A R S OF PR O PO SED E X PE N D IT U R E FOR TH E

DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80 Appearing: Senator the Hon. Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Finance, accompanied by the following

officers:

Department o f Financeâ Mr J. Carroll, First Assistant Secretary, General Expenditure Division Mr G. M. Wauchop, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Mr A. D. Preston-Stanley, Director, Finance and General Services

Mr I. M. Briggs, Finance Officer, Estimates and Accounts Mr B. K. Conroy, Chief Finance Officer, Operations Management Mr W. Brophy, Acting Director, ADP Applications Mr N. McKenna, Acting Director, ADP Operations

Mr J. Griffin, Chief Finance Officer, Public Accounting and Supply Mr B. Chapman, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Rail and Sea Mr D. Wallace, Acting Assistant Secretary, Accounting Operations Mr J. Mellors, Assistant Secretary, Rural Industries and Statutory Authorities

Co-ordination Mr T. Kanaley, Chief Finance Officer, Agreements and Finance Mr M. Pellegrino, Finance Officer, Agreements and Finance Mr A. C. Harris, Assistant Secretary, Manufacturing, Mining and Power

Mr P. Saunders, Chief Finance Officer, Mining and General

Australian Government Retirements Benefits Officeâ Mr N. P. Condoleon, Assistant Secretary, Superannuation Mr R. Jackson, Acting Director, Services

Superannuation Fund Investment Trustâ Mr W. Gynn, Secretary

Royal Australian Mintâ Mr L. Allchin, Acting Superintendent

The Chairman called on Divisions 304-308 and 851-853, Department of Finance and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance.

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and Department Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance were considered as follows:

Divisions 304-308âFinance $38 566 000 (Document A) Divisions 851-853âFinance $20 948 000 (Document B) Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance $ 15 498

4. PA R T IC U L A R S OF PR O PO SED E X PE N D IT U R E FOR TH E DEPARTMENT OF VETERANSâ AFFAIRS AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80 Appearing: Senator the Hon. Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Veteransâ Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Veteransâ Affairsâ Mr G. T. Miller, First Assistant Commissioner, Management Services Division Mr G. A. Woodward, Assistant Commissioner (Finance), Management Services Division Mr N. Hunt, Director, Finance Operations, Management Services Division Mr R. D. Trusty, Finance Manager, New South Wales Branch Office,

Management Services Division Dr Î. M. Kehoe, Acting Chief Director (Medical Services), Medical Division Mr J. W. Muir, First Assistant Commissioner, Treatment Services Division Mr B. Godfrey, Acting Assistant Commissioner (Benefits), Benefits and

Legislation Division Defence Service Homes Corporationâ Mr C. E. Stenhouse, Manager, Corporate Planning and Evaluation Mr J. Reynolds, Director, Financial Management Department o f Financeâ

Mr J. L. Griffin, Chief Finance Officer, Public Accounting and Supply Division The Minister for Social Security (Senator Guilfoyle) made a statement on behalf of the Minister for Veteransâ Affairs.

The Chairman called on Divisions 690-693 and 980-982âDepartment of Veteransâ Affairs, and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance. Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance were considered as follows:

Divisions 690-693âVeteransâ Affairs $441 522 000 (Document A) Divisions 980-982âVeteransâ Affairs $15 897 000 (Document B) Departmental Expenditure under Advance to the Minister for Finance $1 210 350 Consideration of the Estimates for the Department and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance completed subject to an undertaking by the

Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

5. PA R T IC U L A R S OF PR O PO SED E X P E ND I T UR E FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF IMMIGRATION AND ETHNIC AFFAIRS AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80 Appearing: Senator the Hon. Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security

and Minister representing the Minister for Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Immigration and Ethnic Affairsâ Mr D. Volker, Acting Secretary Mr J. Blackie, First Assistant Secretary, Division 3 Mr W. G. Kiddle, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Division 4 Mr B. Machin, Assistant Secretary, Education Branch

Mr A. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Control Branch Mr G. Austin, Assistant Secretary, Program, Control and Development Branch Mr M. Roche, Assistant Secretary, Finance/Services Branch Mr I. Simington, Assistant Secretary, Refugees/Special Projects Branch

Mr G. Woodward, Deputy Director, Australian Institute of Multicultural Affairs Mr W. Johns, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Branch Mr A. Burt, Director, Finance and Services Department o f Financeâ

Mr J. L. Griffin, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on Divisions 360-365 and 876-878âDepartment of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance.

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance were considered as follows:

Divisions 360-365âImmigration and Ethnic Affairs $88 330 000 (Document A) Divisions 876-878âImmigration and Ethnic Affairs $2 055 000 (Document B) Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance $441 089 Consideration of the Estimates for the Department and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.07 p.m.

7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Walters (Chairman), and Senators Bonner, Grimes, Mulvihill and Sheil.

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

THE SENATE

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 22

WEDNESDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. DELIBERATIVE MEETING: The Committee met at 7.55 p.m.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: On the motion of Senator Mulvihill, seconded by Senator Sheil, the Minutes of the meetings held on 29 August 1980 and 1 September 1980 were confirmed.

3. CONSIDERATION OF REPORT: The Chairman presented her draft report to the Committee.

Discussion ensued.

Resolved: That the Report be agreed to.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 7.58 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Walters (Chairman), and Senators Mulvihill and Sheil.

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

ESTIM ATES COM M ITTEE C

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIM ATES COM M ITTEE D

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee D has the honour to present its report to the Senate.

1. On 26 August 1980, the Senate referred to the Committee the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Year Ending 30 June 1981, the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981 and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the

Year Ended 30 June 1980, in relation to the following Departments:

Aboriginal Affairs Industry and Commerce* Transport Productivity

Science and the Environment (*No expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance in 1979-80)

2. The Committee has considered the Departmental Estimates and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance and has received explanations of them from the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and from officers of the Departments concerned. A copy of the Hansard report of the evidence is tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1980-81 and

Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1980-81.

3. The Committee draws the Senateâs attention to the following Item of proposed expenditure:

Department of Transport Division: 655âAdministrative Sub-division: 2âAdministrative expenses Item: 08âStaff training Estimate (A) 1979-80 Variation between

1980-81 Appropriation Expenditure (Bj (A) & (B)

$1 300000 $810000 $798 859 +$501141

+ 62.7%

The Committee also draws the Senateâs attention to answers given by officers of the Department of Transport in relation to costs to be incurred under the item in the training of Examiners of Airmen, as contained in the Hansard report of the evidence (pp. 312-317).

4. The Committee records its appreciation of the assistance of the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and the officers of the Departments concerned in providing full and frank explanations. The Committee also thanks the Departments concerned for the comprehensive nature of the explanatory notes which allowed the Committee to carry out its task expeditiously.

M. TOWNLEY Chairman

Estimates Committee D Minutes Of Proceedings

T H E SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 20

FRIDAY, 29 AUGUST 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met in public session at 10.04 a.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 6. The Acting Chairman (Senator Jessop) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY ACTING CHAIRMAN: The Acting Chairman made an introductory statement, and reported that the Senate had, on 26 August 1980, referred the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and departmental expenditure under the

Advance to the Minister for Finance for certain departments for examination and report.

3. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDIÂ TURE 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80: Pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate on 26 August 1980, the Acting Chairman stated that the Committee would consider the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Year Ending 30 June 1981 and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Year Ended 30 June 1980, relating to the following Departmental Estimates:

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

A 11 120-125 Aboriginal Affairs .................................................. 117 210 000

B 6 811-813 Aboriginal Affairs .................................................. 36 235 000

A 84 380-382 Industry and Commerce ......................................... 20 599 000

A 120 655-662 Transport ................................................................. 372 253 000

B 25 957-959 Transport ................................................................. 54 935 000

A 102 522-528 Productivity ............................................................ 172 659 000

B 22 921 Productivity ............................................................ 14 396 000

A 105 540-565 Science and the E n v iro n m e n t.................................. 281634 000

B 23 927-929 Science and the E n v iro n m e n t.................................... 14 200 000

Document AââParticulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981'. Document BââParticulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981â.

Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80

Page in Division Document* No. Department Amount

6 120 Aboriginal A f f a i r s ........................................................................... 20 051

18 813 Aboriginal A f f a i r s ........................................................................... 103 308

16 655 Transport ................................................................................... 3 793 182

14 522-526 P ro d u c tiv ity ..................................................................................... 3 238 994

20 928 Science and the Environment ....................................................... 90 000

DocumentââAdvance to the Minister for FinanceâStatement of Heads of Expenditure and the amounts charged thereto, pursuant to section 36a of the Audit Act 1901, for the Year Ended 30 June 1980â.

The Chairman stated that in order to minimise any possible inconvenience or expense to Departments who had officers travelling interstate and because of the sittings of House of Representatives Estimates Committees, the Committee had agreed to consider the Departmental Estimates in the following order:

Science and the Environment Industry and Commerce Productivity Aboriginal Affairs

Transport

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80âTHE DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE AND THE ENVIRONMENT

Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, representing the Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Science and the EnvironmentâÂ· Mr P. B. Free, First Assistant Secretary, Operations and Management Division Mr R. S. Goleby, Assistant Secretary, Grants and Projects Branch Mr D. Gascoine, Assistant Secretary, Environment Assessment No. 2 Branch Mr C. A. Webster, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr M. Parker, Executive Officer, Analytical Services Branch Mr C. McCue, Director, Antarctic Division Dr J. W. Zillman, Director, Bureau of Meteorology Mr K. Henderson, Acting Assistant Director, Management, Bureau of

Meteorology Mr T. J. Petry, Executive Director, National Standards Commission Mr D. W. Cunliffe, Executive Officer, Anglo-Australian Observatory Dr J. S. Bunt, Director, Australian Institute of Marine Science Mr S. J. Woodley, Acting Assistant Executive Officer, Great Barrier Reef

Marine Park Authority Mr T. Richmond, Acting Assistant Director, Park Planning and Management Branch, Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service Mr R. M. Fry, Supervising Scientist, Office of the Supervising Scientist Mr R. S. Hooker, Director, Finance and Supply

Mr S. K. Lees, Executive Officer, Finance and Supply Ms L. Osborne, Acting Director, Internal Information Mr D. W. Chippendale, Assistant Executive Officer, Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority

Mr I. Meek, Acting Principal Executive Officer, Directorate, Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service Mr P. Quilty, Executive Officer, Administration, Office of the Supervising Scientist Ms D. Taylor, Finance Officer, Office of the Supervising Scientist Mr G. Parker, Executive Officer, Finance, Bureau of Meteorology Mr P. Morrissey, Senior Finance Investigator, Bureau of Meteorology Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organizationâ

Dr W. J. McG. Tegard, Member of CSIRO Executive Mr K. J. Thrift, Secretary (Personnel) Dr J. B. Allen, Senior Assistant Secretary, Office of the Executive

Mr I. L. Farrar, Assistant Secretary (Budget) Mr K. L. Avent, Secretary, Institute of Biological Resources Dr W. J. Franklin, Scientific Services Officer, Institute of Physical Sciences Mr W. P. Dominguez, Chief Finance Officer (Budget)

Mr R. A. Riches, Finance Officer (Budget) Dr M. J. R. Dack, Acting Secretary, Bureau of Scientific Services Mr S. Lattimore, Director, Bureau of Scientific Services Department o f Financeâ

Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81 Divisions 540-565âDepartment of Science and the Environment (Document A) $281 634 000 Divisions 927-929âDepartment of Science and the Environment (Document

B) $14 200 000 Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 Division 928âDepartment of Science and the Environment $90 000 The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure and

Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of Science and the Environment.

5. P A R T IC U L A R S OF P R O PO SE D E X P E N D IT U R E 1980-81 â DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, representing the Minister for Industry and Commerce, accompanied by the following

officers:

Department o f Industry and Commerceâ Mr L. Stroud, Assistant Secretary, Tourist Industry Branch Mr B. G. Hegarty, Assistant Secretary, Commerce and Small Business Mr A. H. Steele, Assistant Secretary, Heavy Engineering and Shipbuilding

Branch Mr L. Early, Assistant Secretary, Consultation and Liaison Branch Dr K. A. Tucker, Assistant Director, Bureau of Industry Economics Mr P. Harding, Assistant General Manager, Australian Tourist Commission

Mr P. Goulding, Corporate Planner, Australian Tourist Commission Mr K. G. Hocking, Assistant Secretary, Management Services and Secretariat Branch Mr K. A. Dundo, Director, Finance and Services Section

Mr L. Milkovits, Director, Secretariat and Information Services Mr J. F. Hickey, Finance Officer Mr C. McDougall, Estimates Officer Department o f Financeâ

Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 380-382âDepartment of Industry and Commerce (Document A) $20 599 000

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure for the Department of Industry and Commerce.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80âDEPARTMENT OF PRODUCTIVITY

Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, representing the Minister for Productivity, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Productivityâ Mr P. G. Gifford, First Assistant Secretary, Finance and Management Services Division Mr K. McKnown, Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch Mr R. Kinsella, Director, Programs and Estimates, Finance Branch Mr K. R. Williams, First Assistant Secretary, Policy and Research Division

Mr D. R. Toovey, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Working Environment Division Mr L. J. Wrigley, Assistant Controller, Munitions Supply Division Mr J. C. Comerford, Principal Executive Officer (Administration), Munitions

Supply Division Mr C. H. Friemann, Acting Deputy Commissioner, Patents, Trade Marks and Designs Office Mr A. G. Johnson, Acting Senior Assistant Commissioner (Business

Management), Patents, Trade Marks and Designs Office Mr J. E. Crennan, Principal Executive Officer (Administration), Aircraft, Guided Weapons and Electronics Supply Division Mr W. R. Budd, Assistant Director, Aircraft Branch, Aircraft, Guided

Weapons and Electronics Supply Division Dr J. M. Read, Acting Assisting Secretary, Technology Development Branch, Productivity Development Division Department o f Financeâ

Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81 Divisions 522-528âDepartment of Productivity (Document A) $172 659 000 Division 921âDepartment of Productivity (Document B) $14 396 000 Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80

Divisions 522-526âDepartment of Productivity $3 238 994 The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of Productivity.

7. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 1.28 p.m. till Monday, 1 September, at 10.00 a.m.

8. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Townley (Chairman), and Senators Elstob, Jessop and MacGibbon(4).

M. TOWNLEY Chairman

TH E SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 21

MONDAY, 1 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met in public session at 10.03 a.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 6. The Chairman (Senator Townley) took the Chair.

2. PA R TIC U LA R S OF PROPO SED EX PE N D IT U R E 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80âDEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Aboriginal Affairsâ Mr A. J. Ayers, Secretary, Department of Aboriginal Affairs Mr D. OâRourke, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Development Division Mr N. Jansz, First Assistant Secretary, Operations Division

Mr R. A. Jenkins, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr R. Toohey, Acting Assistant Secretary, Program Branch Mr W. Miller, Acting Director, Program Development Mr M. Baker, Acting Assistant Director, Budget Co-ordination

Ms P. Turner, Clerk Class 9, Health Section, Social Branch Mr M. Edwards, Queensland Region Mr P. OâNeill, Economics Branch Australian Institute of Aboriginal Studiesâ

Mr W. C. Dix, Deputy Principal Aboriginal Development Commissionâ Mr D. Kelley, Acting General Manager Mr R. Campbell, Branch Manager

Mr B. Dixon, Clerk Class 8 Mr T. Garwood, Clerk Class 5 Mr A. Jackamos, Clerk Class 7 Mr P. McLean, Acting Clerk Class 8 Applied Ecology Pty Ltdâ

Mr N. W. Butler Aboriginal Hostels Pty Ltdâ Mr R. F. Schuler, General Manager Mr R. Clarke, Manager, Accounts

Department o f Financeâ Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81 Divisions 120-125â Department of Aboriginal Affairs (Document A) $117 210000 Divisions 811-813â Department of Aboriginal Affairs (Document B)

$36 235 000

24016/ 8 1 - 3

Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 Divisions 120 and 813 â Department of Aboriginal Affairs $ 123 359 The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs.

3. PA R TIC U LA R S OF PROPO SED EX PEN D IT U R E 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE M INISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80âDEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, representing the Minister for Transport, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Transportâ Mr K. Toakley, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Finance and Commercial Division Mr R. Thompson, First Assistant Secretary, Management Services Division Mr M. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Land Transport Policy Division Mr Î. B. OâKeeffe, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Airways Operations

Division Mr P. Eccles, First Assistant Secretary, Coastal Services Division Mr G. OâHalloran, Director, Finance (Budget) Mr K. Smith, Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch Mr W. Willoughby, Senior Assistant Secretary, Works and Services Branch Mr L. Norsworthy, Acting Assistant Secretary, General Aviation

Mr D. OâBrien, Assistant Secretary, Coastal and Overseas Bulk Branch Dr C. Gannon, Director, Bureau of Transport Economics Mr G. Spence, Director, Economic Policy, Economic Policy and Investment Planning Branch Mr L. Hutchins, Budget Officer, Australian National Railways Mr G. Williams, Senior Assistant Secretary, Airport Engineering Services Mr J. Sansom, Assistant Secretary, Airways Operations Planning and

Development Mr P. Merner, Assistant Secretary, Land Transport Branch Mr D. Langford, Assistant Secretary, Rail Branch Mr J. S. Latham, Assistant Secretary, Road Transport Department o f Financeâ

Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81 Divisions 655-662â Department of Transport (Document A) $372 253 000 Divisions 957-959âDepartment of Transport (Document B) $54 935 000

Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 Division 655âDepartment of Transport $3 793 182 The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of Transport.

4. PRIVATE MEETINGâCONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT: The Committee met to consider matters for inclusion in the Draft Report.

The Chairman presented a Draft Report for Presentation to the Senate. Discussion ensued.

Resolved: That the Report be adopted, subject to it being circulated to members of the Committee for their final consideration prior to presentation to the Senate.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 5.25 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Townley (Chairman), and Senators Elstob, Jessop and MacGibbon (4).

Senator McClelland also took part in the Committeeâs proceedings.

M. TOWNLEY Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIM ATES COM M ITTEE E

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee E has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

2. On 26 August 1980 the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates of expenditure for the year ending 30 June 1981, relating to the following Departments:

Special Trade Representative Primary Industry Home Affairs Capital Territory

Housing and Construction The Senate also referred departmental expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1980, in respect of the following Departments:

Primary Industry Home Affairs Capital Territory Housing and Construction 3. The Committee has considered the Estimates of Expenditure and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance and has received explanations of them from the Minister for Social Security (Senator the Hon.

Dame Margaret Guilfoyle. D.B.E.), the Attorney-General (Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C.) and from officers of the Departments concerned. The Minutes of Proceedings of the Committee are attached to this report and the Hansard report of evidence taken is presented herewith for the information of the Senate in connection

with Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1980-81 and Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1980-81. Further written explanations furnished by Departments will be presented separately and printed in the Hansard record.

4. The attention of the Senate is drawn to the following:

(i) Department o f the Capital Territoryâ Social Welfare, including payments to the ACT Transport Trust Account (Division 210.3.05) In its last report to the Senate (April 1980), the Committee expressed concern about the transfer of expenditure between items in the Departmentâs accounts. At that time both the Department of the Capital Territory and the

Department of Finance gave assurances that amendments would be made to accounting procedures to avoid a recurrence of the circumstances which had led to the Committeeâs complaint. The Committee is pleased to report that such procedures have now been

adopted by the Departments (Hansard, 3 September 1980, page 478).

(ii) Computer purchases Throughout its examination of the Estimates, the Committee posed a number of questions which were designed to determine the degree of protection taxpayers have in ensuring that expenditure on computers is carefully

calculated and evaluated. The hire or purchase of computer equipment is often justified by the expected savings on expenditure in other areas over a specified period of years. The rapid development of computer technology means that, within the period, a new system has evolved with an even quicker payback

time. A new computer is purchased before the original outlay is recouped.

The Committee is not wholly satisfied with the findings of its investigations and will devote more attention to departmental purchase and use of computers in hearings on the Estimates for 1981 -82.

(iii) Standard o f Explanatory Notes Estimates committees have had cause in the past to criticise the standard and presentation of the Explanatory Notes. While welcoming the general improvement throughout, the Committee wishes to make mention of the Department of Housing and Construction. The presentation of the Departmentâs Explanatory Notes and particularly information provided at the beginning of the Notes is to be highly commended.

5. The Committee records its appreciation of the assistance of the Minister for Social Security, the Attorney-General and the departmental officers who appeared before the Committee.

BRIAN R. ARCHER Chairman

Estimates Committee E Minutes Of Proceedings

THE SENATE

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 19

WEDNESDAY, 3 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.00 a.m.

2. CHANGE OF MEMBERSHIP: The Resolution of the Senate of 21 August 1980, relating to the appointment of Senator Thomas in place of Senator Collard, was reported.

3. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: Pursuant to Standing Order 36AB, the Secretary called for nominations for the position of Chairman. Senator Archer, having been proposed by Senator Thomas, seconded Senator Primmer, and there being no other nominations, was declared elected unopposed. Senator Archer took the Chair.

4. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEE: The Resolution of the Senate of 26 August 1980: (1) That the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year

Ending on 30 June 1981 be referred herewith to Estimates Committees for examination and report. (2) That, pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate of 16 November 1978, departmental

expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Year Ended 30 June 1980 be referred to Estimates Committees for examination and report prior to its consideration in Committee of the Whole. (3) That the Committees report to the Senate on or before Thursday, 11 September

1980.

was reported.

5. CORRECTIONS TO EXPLANATORY NOTES: The Chairman informed the Committee that notice had been received of corrections to the Explanatory Notes of the Departments of Primary Industry, Home Affairs and the Capital Territory as follows:

Department o f Primary Industry â¢ delete page 17 -insert at page 79A â¢ delete page 105

-insert at page 17 â¢ delete page 206

ESTIM ATES COM M ITTEE E

Department o f Home Affairs In reply please quote: 80/1481

The Secretary

Senate Estimates Committee E

Parliament House

CANBERRA, A.C.T. 2600

Attention: Mr R.W. Alison

P.O. Box 1252 Canberra City, A.C.T. 2601 28 August 1980

ESTIM ATES OF RECEIPTS AND EXPEND ITURE 1980-81 EXPLANATORY NOTES Further to our telephone conversation of 28 August 1980, I wish to confirm an amendment to the explanations for the Australian National Gallery in this

Departmentâs Explanatory Notes. Pages 379 and 380 were inadvertently collated out of sequence and numbered incorrectly. Page 380 should appear as 379 and vice versa.

It would be appreciated if you could bring this matter to the attention of the members of the Senate Estimates Committee and other members expected to be present when the hearing for the Australian National Gallery is held.

(B. Zanetti)

for Secretary

Department o f the Capital Territory Division 210/1 /02âOvertime

The overtime allocations for 1980-81 shown in the Explanations were based primarily on Branch bids. Actual expenditure for 1979-80 was not known at the time these allocations were drawn up.

The Budget allocation for 1980-81 of $521 000 provides for a continuation of normal departmental services, adjusted to take account of salary increases over the last 12 months, plus a provision of $30 000 for implementation of the MANDATA program and a special filing program in connection with papers generated by a projects team investigating Housing rental records.

The Department has now reviewed the allocations for 1980-81 in line with the basis for the Budget provision and actual expenditure in 1979-80. Details of the new allocations and expenditure figures for 1979-80 are shown below.

As a result of organisational changes during the year, involving a number of Branches, it was necessary to rearrange the costing structure in the Departmentâs Appropriation Ledger.

Unfortunately, not all necessary adjustments were made to the Appropriation Ledger to enable the correct expenditure against operational areas to be reflected in the Ledger. Expenditures against operational areas have now been adjusted and are reflected in the table below:

Actual Proposed expenditure expenditure

Branch-Section 1979-80 1980-81

City Managerâs Office E x e c u ti v e ........................................................................................ 13 100

Rates B r a n c h .................................................................................... 21628 25 000

Technical Services Branch ........................................................... 28 948 34 000

Recreation and Tourism Branch ................................................. 68 885 78 000

Welfare B r a n c h ............................................................................... 39 11 1 35 000

City Parks Administration ........................................................... 12 355 14 000

Legislation and Policy Co-ordination Division Legislation B r a n c h .......................................................................... 565 200

Policy Co-ordination B r a n c h ........................................................... 1 497 2 500

Births, Deaths and Marriages Office ............................................ 4 348 5 500

Land Titles Office .......................................................................... 8 207 9 500

Lands Division Conservation and Agriculture S e c t i o n ............................................ 40 590 45 000

Lands A d m in istra tio n ..................................................................... 17 396 20 000

Management Services Division Systems B r a n c h .............................................................................. 19 236 23 000

Establishments Branch (Note 1) 21 237 55 000

Finance and Supply Branch ........................................................... 24 776 29 000

Information and Public Relations Section .................................. 728 600

Parliamentary S e c t i o n ..................................................................... 511 600

Transport and Housing Division Housing B r a n c h ............................................................................... 21 738 26 000

Traffic and Transport Branch ...................................................... 3 227 4 000

Motor Vehicle Registry ................................................................ 99 188 114 000

434 184 521 000

Note 1 âIncludes a provision of $30 000 for special tasks during 1980-81.

6. PROCEDURE OF THE COMMITTEE: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981, the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the Year Ending

on 30 June 1981 and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Year Ended 30 June 1980 as apply to the following Departments:

Division

Document* * Page No. Department Amount

A 114 620 Special Trade R e p re se n ta tiv e .................................. 406 000

A 93 490-497 Primary I n d u s t r y ....................................................... 102 946 000

B 21 907-909 Primary I n d u s t r y ....................................................... 47 832 000

A 68 330-348 Home Affairs ............................................................ 98 018 000

B 15 866-868 Home Affairs ............................................................ 18 827 000

A 35 210-215 Capital T e r r i t o r y ....................................................... 84 344 000

B 10 837 Capital T e r r i t o r y ....................................................... 132 699 000

A 74 350-358 Housing and C o n s tr u c tio n ......................................... 236 099 000

A 43 245 Building and Works (Defence) ............................... 101 200 000

A 44 246 Repairs and Maintenance (Defence) ..................... 72 600 000

A 44 248 Housing for ServicemenâAdvance to States 1 820 000

(Defence)

B 17 871-873 Housing and C o n s tr u c tio n ......................................... 440 012 000

* Document AââParticulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 198Î. * Document BââParticulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1981'. 73

Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80

Page in Division Document* No. Department Amount

14 494 -495 Primary Industry .......................................................................... 45 198

11 334-335 Home Affairs ............................................................................... 6 340

19 862 Home Affairs ............................................................................... 182 000

18 829 Capital Territory ........................................................................... 2 250 000

12 352 Housing and Construction ........................................................... 197 060

19 865 Housing and Construction ............................................................ 1 815 643

* DocumentââAdvance to the Minister for FinanceâStatement of Heads of Expenditure and the amounts charged thereto, pursuant to section 36a of the Audit Act 1901, for the Year Ended 30 June 1980'.

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF THE SPECIAL TRADE REPRESENTATIVE Appearing: Senator the Hon. Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, D.B.E., Minister for Social Security, representing the Minister for Special Trade Representations, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f the Special Trade Representativeâ Mr F. E. Anderson, Deputy Secretary Department o f Trade and Resourcesâ Mr P. C. Laird, Acting Director, Finance and Services Department o f Financeâ

Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Division for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81: Division 620âDepartment of the Special Trade Representative (Document A) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure for the Department of the Special Trade Representative.

8. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND CONSTRUCTION AND DEPARTÂ MENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80 Appearing: Senator the Hon. Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, D.B.E., Minister for Social

Security, representing the Minister for Housing and Construction, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Housing and Constructionâ Mr K. J. Rodda, Deputy Secretary Mr Î. B. Roger, Acting Director, Housing Policy Mr A. E. Norman, Acting Assistant Secretary (Works) Mr J. P. Sparkes, Acting Assistant Secretary (Finance) Department o f Financeâ

Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81: Divisions 350-358âHousing and Construction Division 245âBuilding and Works (Defence) Division 246âRepairs and Maintenance (Defence) Division 248âHousing for ServicemenâAdvance to States (Defence) (DocuÂ

ment A) Divisions 871-873âHousing and Construction (Document B) Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80: Division 352âHousing and Construction

Division 865âHousing and Construction The Committee concluded its consideration of Proposed Expenditure for the DepartÂ ment of Housing and Construction and departmental expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance.

9. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80 Appearing: Senator the Hon. Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, D.B.E., Minister for Social Security, representing the Minister for Primary Industry, accompanied by the followÂ ing officers:

Department o f Primary Industryâ Mr D. P. Cleary, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr L. C. Elliott, Director of Finance Mr P. W. Wurfel, Acting Assistant Director, Budgetary Control and Financial

Services Mr G. Mackey, First Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 1 (Meat and Meat Products) Division Mr K. W. Hyde, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 1 (Meat and Meat

Products) Division Mr A. E. B. Wood, Senior Executive Officer, Industry No. 2 (Dairy Products) Division Mr J. C. Nicholls, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 2 (Dairy Products)

Division Mr N. D. Honan, First Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 3 (Field Crops) Division Mr E. D. Letts, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 3 (Field Crops) Division

Mr E. L. Jenkins, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 4 (Sugar and Horticultural Crops) Division Mr A. R. Kyburz, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 4 (Sugar and HorticulÂ tural Crops) Division Mr D. R. Barnes, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries) Division

Mr B. V. Lilburn, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries) Division Mr P. Burns, Clerk Class 9, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries) Division Mr E. J. Waring, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 6 (Wool) Division Mr L. Z. Jelinek, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 6 (Wool) Division

Mr W. Hoogvliet, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 6 (Wool) Division Mr M. Ryan, Ag. Principal Executive Officer, Development Division Mr J. R. Merton, Assistant Secretary, Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr D. A. Randall, Ag. Principal Executive Officer, Agriculture and Food SerÂ

vices Division

Mr I. R. Cottingham, Senior Executive Officer, Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr G. M. Young, Principal Executive Officer, Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr L. McCullock, Ag. Director, Plague Locust Commission, Agriculture and

Food Services Division Mr W. G. Carter, Principal Executive Officer, Forestry Branch Mr J. Auty, Ag. Assistant Director, Bureau of Animal Health Mr J. A. Hart, Senior Assistant Director, Bureau of Animal Health Mr J. E. Digby, Assistant Director, Bureau of Animal Health Dr R. T. Roe, Ag. Veterinary Specialist, Bureau of Animal Health Mr J. F. Landos, Principal Executive Officer, Bureau of Animal Health Mr G. L. Miller, Director, Bureau of Agricultural Economics Mr N. J. Lamb, Principal Executive Officer, Bureau of Agricultural Economics Dr G. Evans, Director, Commonwealth Council for Rural Research and

Extension Mr B. Scott, Principal Project Officer, Commonwealth Council for Rural ReÂ search and Extension Mr J. H. Dean, Director of Fish Exports Standards, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries)

Division

Department o f Financeâ Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81: Divisions 490-497âPrimary Industry (Document A) Divisions 907-909âPrimary Industry (Document B) Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80:

Divisions 494-495âPrimary Industry The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure for the DeÂ partment of Primary Industry and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance.

10. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDIÂ TURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE Appearing: Senator the Hon. Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, D.B.E., Minister for Social Security, representing the Minister for Home Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Home Affairsâ Culture, Sport and Recreation Divisionâ Mr T. F. Paterson, First Assistant Secretary Mr G. Dempster, Assistant Secretary, Sport and Recreation Branch

Ms J. Harrison, Acting Director, Policy and Research, Sport and Recreation Branch Mr G. Strang, Director, Sports Development, Sport and Recreation Branch Mr F. Brice, Assistant Secretary, Cultural Affairs Branch Mr J. Davies, Director, Heritage Section, Heritage Branch Mr P. Ryan, Director, Museums and Collections Section, Heritage Branch Mr G. Sturgeon, Director, Artbank

Territories Divisionâ Mr G. Byrnes, Acting Assistant Secretary, Indian Ocean Territories Branch Mr H. Plant, Assistant Secretary, Other Territories Branch Mr V. Mawhinney, Section Head, Christmas Island Section

Mr L. Huston, Acting Director, Norfolk Island Section Office of Womenâs Affairsâ Ms K. Taperell, Assistant Secretary Ms C. M. Wiltshire, Principal Executive Officer, National Womenâs Advisory

Council

Co-ordination and Management Services Branchâ Mr B. W. Palmer, Acting Assistant Secretary Mr B. Zanetti, Acting Assistant Director, Finance and Services Mr I. Higgins, Director, Information Services Australian Archivesâ

Prof. R. G. Neale, Director-General Mr M. Creep, Acting Executive Officer, Administration Australian War Memorialâ Mr N. J. Flanagan, Director

Australia Councilâ Mr J. R. A. Cameron, General Manager Mr R. Taylor, Deputy Executive Officer, Finance Mr B. Claremont, Director of Administration Australian Film and Television Schoolâ

Ms G. M. Carnegie, Head, Administration and Services Mr M. Tan, Executive Officer, Finance Australian Film Commissionâ Mr B. J. Gittings, Secretary

Mr A. T. S. Martin, Executive Officer Mr T. P. Read, Acting Director-in-Chief, Film Australia Branch National Library of Australiaâ Mr H. Bryan, Director-General

Mr G. E. Clark, Director, Management Services Branch Australian National Galleryâ Mr J. Mollison, Director Mr B. E. W. Kelson, Secretary-Manager

Mr G. Andrews, Finance Officer Australian Heritage Commissionâ Mr C. Griffiths, Acting Director Mr P. Cheah, Assistant Director

Department o f Financeâ Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Minister presented a brief explanatory statement which was ordered to be incorporated in Hansard.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81: Divisions 330-340âHome Affairs (Document A) Divisions 866-868âHome Affairs (Document B)

Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80: Divisions 334-335â Home Affairs Division 862 Home Affairs The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure for the

Department of Home Affairs and departmental expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance.

11. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF THE CAPITAL TERRITORY AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE M INISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80 Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, representing the

Minister for the Capital Territory, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f the Capital Territoryâ Mr L. J. Daniels, Secretary Mr E. H. McGrath, First Assistant Secretary, Management Services Division Mr D. M. Lalor, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Supply Branch Mr J. T. Maher, Acting Director, Programs and Budgets Section Mr M. Van Gelder, Assistant Secretary, Establishments Branch Mr R. OâConnell, Assistant Secretary, Systems Branch Mr W. E. Lawrence, First Assistant Secretary, Legislation and Policy

Co-ordination Division Mr J. H. Marshall, First Assistant Secretary, Transport and Housing Division Mr J. A. Turner, Assistant Secretary, Public Transit Branch Mr R. J. Corrigan, First Assistant Secretary, Lands Division Mr F. Gnauck, Assistant Director, Conservation and Agriculture Section Mr L. L. Gillespie, City Manager

Mr R. Donnellan, Assistant Secretary, Recreation and Tourism Branch Mr V. F. Martisius, Assistant Secretary, Technical Services Branch Mr J. H. Lowe, Acting Assistant Secretary, Rates Branch Mr I. F. McKendry, Clerk of the A.C.T. House of Assembly Mr N. Reilly, Administrative Officer, A.C.T. House of Assembly Mr R. Jackson, Assistant Executive Director, Canberra Development Board National Capital Development Commissionâ

Mr K. Curtis, Secretary and Manager Parliament House Construction Authorityâ Mr J. L. Maher, Assistant Secretary, Management Department o f Financeâ

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Minister made a brief introductory statement and tabled a background paper outlining the proposed establishment of the Australian Capital Territory Community Development Fund. The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81: Divisions 210-215âCapital Territory (Document A) Division 837âCapital Territory (Document B) Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80:

Division 829âCapital Territory

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure for the Department of the Capital Territory and departmental expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance.

12. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.36 p.m. until a date and hour to be fixed.

13. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Archer (Chairman), and Senators Primmer, Rocher and Thomas (4).

Senators Rae and Ryan also attended.

BRIAN R. ARCHER Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 20

TUESDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 6.00 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Archer) took the Chair.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of a Meeting held on 3 SepÂ tember 1980 (No. 19) were confirmed.

3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered a draft of its ReÂ port to the Senate. The draft was adopted without amendment.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.30 p.m. until a date and hour to be fixed.

5. ATTENDANCE: Senator Archer (Chairman), Senators Primmer and Rocher (3).

BRIAN R. ARCHER Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee F has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

2. On 26 August 1980, the Senate referred to the Committee the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the year 1980-81, and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 relating to the following Departments:

Trade and Resources Foreign Affairs Defence Postal and Telecommunications

Administrative Services

3. The Committee has considered the Proposed Expenditure and, where applicable, expenditure items under the Advance to the Minister for Finance. Explanations have been received from the Minister and officers representing the departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with the Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1980-81, the Appropriation Bill (No.

2) 1980-81 and the consideration in Committee of the Whole of the Advance to the Minister for Finance. Certain answers to questions which were deferred and subsequently given in writing since the Committeeâs last hearings will be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committeeâs hearings.

4. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters arising from its consideration:

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE

(a) Defence Force Ombudsman (formerly Division 231) This Item continues to attract the interest of the Committee. The Committee is disturbed at the ongoing failure to formally establish and fill this Office. The history of the Office dates back to 1975 when initial legislation passed by the

House of Representatives lapsed as a result of the Double Dissolution of that year. Since that date, and in the absence of any formal legislation, the position of Defence Force Ombudsman has been filled by administrative arrangements. In 1979, the Committee expressed its concern at the failure to

appoint a permanent officer and that such failure should be remedied at the earliest possible opportunity. Nothing has been done to improve this unsatisfactory situation. The question of a permanent appointment to the

Office and whether its responsibilities would best be handled by the Commonwealth Ombudsman is now the subject of consideration by the Government. To date, there has been no decision on this matter.

It is of concern to the Committee that it is again necessary to draw the attention of the Senate to this ongoing and unsatisfactory situation concerning the Defence Force Ombudsman.

(b) Special Purpose A ircraft and Associated Initial Equipment and Storesâ234-1-05 The Committee appreciates the effort made by the Department to implement the suggestion of Estimates Committee F contained in its Report to the Senate in April 1980, that costs associated with the operations of the Boeing 707 aircraft be consolidated into a single table.

In its examination of the consolidated list (page 158 of the explanatory notes), the Committee found difficulties in discerning a common formula for allocating costs under various appropriation items between the V.I.P. and Defence role of the aircraft.

The Committee therefore recommends that the Department in its future submissions gives details of the formula and provides a breakdown of costs attributable to both roles of the aircraft.

DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES

Government Printer Trust AccountâRevenue During the Committeeâs consideration of this Item, it was advised that outstanding debts to the Government Printer Trust Account of Commonwealth Departments and statutory authorities amounted to approximately $6 million during May 1980 and some $3 million at the close of the Financial Year. While the Department has taken,

and continues to take, action to reduce the extent of the debt, up to 20 per cent of the amount can be attributed to accounts which have been outstanding for up to five or six years. It was explained to the Committee that a portion of the debt could be related to accounting problems, whilst the majority of the remainder relates to debts of departments and statutory authorities which have been abolished.

If, due to administrative re-arrangements, debts cannot be met following abolition of a government agency, the Committee questions why action is not taken to write off the debt and make an appropriate entry in the Government Printerâs financial accounts. The existence and nature of the debt is bad accounting practice.

GENERAL

Evaluation of computers Throughout its consideration of Department Estimates, the Committee sought information on methods of evaluating the effectiveness of computers and to determine whether their capacities meet the objectives originally sought by the Department. The Committee is aware of the firm guidelines imposed on Public Service departments prior to the purchase of computers and before their introduction into the various departmental systems. However, questions concerning whether a computer satisfies the original departmental requirements of savings in manpower, improved services etc. are, in the main, the responsibility of the department concerned. From the Committeeâs questioning of officers of various departments on this matter, it would appear that attempts to undertake post implementation reviews of computer efficiency and effectiveness are lacking in consistency and carried out in an ad hoc fashion. Indeed, the Committee has been advised that no firm Public Service guidelines have been established in this regard. While the Committee is aware of the many systems which exist within departments and the inherent difficulties associated with determining an appropriate evaluation procedure, it nevertheless feels that a

co-ordinated program of evaluation should be established within the Public Service. The Committee is also of the view that, wherever possible, such evaluations should be undertaken by persons independent of those who recommended the initial purchase.

Operation of Estimates Committees In recent years Estimates Committees have commented on the operation of the Committees and suggested ways in which their operations could be improved. This Committee has been advised that a full-time research officer will be provided to assist the Committee during its consideration of departmental estimates for the additional estimates 1980-81. The Committee commends this decision. However, the Committee

is concerned with the practice which determines an allocation of departmental estimates to the Committees which basically reflect Senate Ministerial representation. The allocation may change from time to time depending on Ministerial arrangements. So far as Estimates Committee F is concerned, no set arrangement

exists concerning departmental responsibilities. It is arranged according to the circumstances which exist at the time. The method of allocation of departments to the Committees and the frequency of change causes problems to this Committee, and, no doubt, other Committees, in conducting a thorough examination of the Estimates. The

Committee, therefore, recommends that, wherever possible, the actual departments examined by individual Estimates Committees be consistent throughout the length of a Parliamentary Session. It also seeks the co-operation of the Government to avoid,

wherever possible, the making of changes to Ministerial representation in the Senate which will result in disturbances to the departments considered by the various Estimates Committees.

5. The Committee records its appreciation of the explanations provided by the Minister and departmental officers during the Committee's hearings.

A. J. MESSNER Deputy Chairman

Estimates Committee F Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 16

WEDNESDAY, 3 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 9.45 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Kilgariff) took the Chair.

The Committee met in public session at 10.00 a.m.

2. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Resolution of the Senate of 26 August 1980 relating to the reference to the Committee of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81 and of expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1980 was reported.

3. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the estimates of proposed expenditure and sums charged to the Advance to the Minister for Finance to be considered by the Committee.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80âDEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for National Development and Energy, representing the Minister for Defence, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Defenceâ Mr G. Adamson, Assistant Secretary, Resources PlanningâArmy Mr G. E. Barlow, Acting Deputy Chief Defence Scientist Captain A. L. Beaumont, RAN, Director of Naval Plans

Mr D. N. Biddle, Engineer, Ground Equipment and Munitions Col. P. W. Blyth, Director-General, Movements and Transports Air Vice-Marshal E. M. Carroll, Chief of Supply Group Capt. K. T. Casey, Deputy Director-General Supply, Air Force

Brig. G. F. Cohen, Director-General, Training and Education Policy Mr P. G. Collins, First Assistant Secretary, Industrial Division Mr Î. T. Dalton, Director-General Supply, Navy Professor P. T. Fink, Chief Defence Scientist Col. R. E. Hagerty, Directorâ Equipment M aterial, Programming

Standardization Mr T. K. Hickman, Assistant Secretary, Civil Personnel Brig. B. H. Hockney, Director-General Material, Army Air Vice-Marshal H. A. Hughes, Chief of Air Force Material

Mr Î. T. Hyland, First Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budgets Mr Î. P. Jones, Assistant Secretary, Science and Technology Administration Brig. C. N. Kahn, Deputy Chief of Army Reserve Captain J. M. Kelly, RAN, Director of Joint Training and Logistics

Mr K. T. Lyon, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning, Air Force Group Capt. Î. K. Lyons, Director of Operations, Air Force Mr R. D. Martin, Assistant Director, Natural Disasters Organisation (Policy and Support)

Mr D. M. McAlister, Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy and Requirements Mr L. A. McGee, Assistant Secretary, Quality Assurance and Engineering Resources Policy Mr G. E. Nichols, Assistant Secretary, Naval Technical Services Mr T. J. OâConnor, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning, Navy Mr J. S. O'Neill, Assistant Secretary, Budgets and Estimates (General and

Co-ordination) Air Commodore T. C. Owen, Director-General Recruiting Mr T. J. Parker, Assistant Secretary, Defence Facilities, Program Management Mr I. M. Reid, Assistant Secretary, Defence Facilities, Program Management Rear-Admiral W. J. Bourke, Chief of Naval Material Mr M. F. Sage, Director of Network Planning and Programs (Defence ComÂ

munications System) Mr R. Scott, Assistant Secretary Supply Policy Brig. J. A. Sheldrick, Director-General Operations and Plans, Army Doctor A. Taloni, Assistant Secretary, Project Co-ordination, Computer

Services Mr G. M. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Industrial Division Lieutenant-Col. P. J. Tuckett, SOI Programming and Estimates, Director- General Supply, Army Major-General W. J. Watson, ChairmanâServices Health Policy Committee Mr D. A. Whitty, Assistant Secretary, International Policy (PNG and Defence

Co-operation Programmes) Department o f Financeâ Mr J. L. Griffin, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 230-242- (Document A) Divisions 230-241â(Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 for the Department of Defence, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide adÂ ditional information to the Committee.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR F I N A N C E 1979- 80â P O S T A L AND T E L E C O M M U N I C A T I O N S

DEPARTMENT Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for National Development and Energy, representing the Minister for Post and Telecommunications, accompanied by the following officers:

Postal and Telecommunications Departmentâ Mr E. E. Payne, Deputy Secretary Mr R. Lord, First Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting Policy Division Mr D. Whitbread, Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting Policy Division Mr V. Kane, First Assistant Secretary, Policy Division Mr J. Coleman, Assistant Secretary, Policy Division Mr A. Guster, First Assistant Secretary, Satellite Project Office Mr R. Ramsay, First Assistant Secretary, Radio Frequency Management

Division

Mr P. Westerway, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting Planning and Operations Division Mr B. Foster, Acting Directorâ Finance Mr P. Freeman, Acting Controller Finance and Supply Authoritiesâ representativesâ Special Broadcasting Service:

Mr R. Fowell, Executive Director Mr B. Flarvey, Plead of Implementation Task Force Mr E. Lembryk, Assistant Finance Officer Australian Broadcasting Tribunal:

Mr B. J. Connolly, Secretary Mr N. L. Donnelly, Senior Executive Officer, Management Services Overseas Telecommunications Commission: Mr R. Knightly, Director, International Relations Division

Australian Telecommunications Commission: Mr A. Kellock, Director, Finance Mr K. West, Acting General Manager, Customer Services Mr K. Power, Chief Planning Engineer

Mr A. Daag, Manager, Management and Cost Accounting Mr G. Hudson, Manager, Financial Planning Mr G. Crew, Assistant Chief Engineer, Construction Australian Postal Commission:

Mr J. Holt, General Manager, Finance Australian Broadcasting Commission: Mr G. White, Assistant General Manager, Television Mr K. C. Macriell, Assistant General Manager, Radio

Mr K. Jennings, Assistant General Manager, Management Services Mr W. Funnell, Controller, Finance Mr K. Bourke, Controller, Engineering Mr A. Coulter, Federal Budget Officer Australian Broadcasting Commission Committee of Review:

Mr C. Conybeare, Secretary The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 480-487â(Document A) Divisions 901 and 903â(Document B) Divisions 480 and 911â(Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure

1980-81 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 for the Postal and Telecommunications Department, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 AND EXPENÂ DITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80âDEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND RESOURCES

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for National Development and Energy, representing the Minister for Trade and Resources, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Trade and Resourcesâ Mr R. Moore, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Management and Overseas Division Mr B. F. Meere, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Commodities No. 1 Division Mr A. N. Page, Acting Principal Adviser, Commodities No. 2 Division Mr R. J. Thomas, Assistant Secretary, Commodities No. 2 Division Mr C. Hill, Acting Assistant Secretary, Commodities No. 2 Division Mr E. R. J. Hall, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Trade Policy Division Mr A. L. Paltridge, First Assistant Secretary, Trade Promotion and Services

Division Mr C. B. Brown, Acting Assistant Secretary, Trade Promotion and Services Division Mr P. Flanagan, Acting Assistant Secretary, Trade Promotion and Services

Division Mr R. Wright, Acting Director, Trade Promotion and Services Division Mr P. Kane, Acting Director, Trade Promotion and Services Division Mr J. R. Gardner, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Trade Relations and

Markets Division Mr W. G. McGregor, Assistant Secretary, Uranium Division Mr C. R. Shepard, Acting Director, Management and Overseas Division Mr P. C. Laird, Acting Director, Management and Overseas Division Mr B. V. Leedham, Assistant Secretary, Australian Uranium Export Office Mr J. S. White, Secretary, Uranium Advisory Council Mr E. B. Waldron, Assistant Secretary, Trade Promotion and Services Division Mr R. A. Daly, Chairman, Export Development Grants Board Department o f Financeâ

Mr J. L. Griffin, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 640-646â(Document A) Division 953â(Document B) Divisions 640 and 952â(Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1980-81 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 for the Department of Trade and Resources, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE, 1979-80âDEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Garrick, Minister for National Development and Energy, representing the Minister for Foreign Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Foreign Affairsâ Mr J. E. Ryan, OBE, Deputy Secretary Mr K. McDonald, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Foreign Service Division Mr C. R. Ashwin, First Assistant Secretary, International Organisations,

Africa and Middle East Division Mr I. G. Bowden, First Assistant Secretary, Consular, Information and CulÂ tural Division

Mr F. R. Dalrymple, First Assistant Secretary, Economic Division Mr F. B. Hall, Chief of Protocol Mr G. E. C. Gibson, Assistant Secretary, Administrative Services Branch Mr A. R. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Personnel Branch

Mr G. Barber, Assistant Secretary, Technical Services Branch Mr J. H. Brook, Assistant Secretary, International Legal Branch Mr B. Wyborn, Papua, New Guinea Section Mr B. L. Parkes, Director, Overseas and General Accounting Section

Mr J. V. Lovegrove, Director, Communications Section Mr K. A. Oakman, Acting Director, Property and Office Services Section Mr N. Allanson, Acting Director, Personnel Policy Section Mr E. Harty, Acting Director, ADP Section

Mr K. W. Brazel, Plans and Policy Section, Defence Branch Mr N. J. Kelly, Budget Officer, Overseas and General Accounting Section Mr W. C. L. Lang, Executive Officer, Australia-New Zealand Foundation Mr B. J. OâDonnell, Executive Officer, Training Section

Mr A. Thompson, Resources and Post Liaison Section Mr N. Unwin, Principal Technical Officer, Technical Services Branch Dr Î. M. Venning, Office of the Adviser of Science, Technology and the Environment

Mr W. Patterson, Nuclear Policy and Disarmament Branch Australian Development Assistance Bureauâ Mr J. C. Ingram, Director Dr I. S. Mitchell, First Assistant Secretary, Policy, Training and Organisations

Division Mr R. G. Spratt, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Bilateral Programs Division Mr E. Ingevics, Assistant Secretary, International Organisations and Liaison Branch

Mr C. E. T. Terrell, Assistant Secretary, Development Training Branch Miss M. R. McGovern, Assistant Secretary, South-East Asia Programs Branch Mr J. M. Powell, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Services Branch Mr M. Hope, Acting Assistant Secretary, Policy Development and CoÂ

ordination Branch Mr G. Martin, Acting Head, Program Planning and Development Section Mr R. E. Vizard, Head, International Organisations Section Mr T. J. Johnson, Acting Head, Finance Section

Mr A. Macdonald, Head, Food Aid Unit Mr L. Engel, Information and Non-Government Organisation Section Mr F. Wojtaszak, Finance Section Department o f Financeâ

Mr J. L. Griffin, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 315-319â(Document A) Divisions 856, 858 and 859â(Document B) Divisions 315, 318 and 851â(Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure

1980-81 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 for the Department of Foreign Affairs, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to proÂ vide additional information to the Committee.

8. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.07 p.m.

9. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator B. F. Kilgariff (Chairman), Senator A. J. Messner, Senator G. D. McIntosh, Senator L. W. Neal, Senator S. M. Ryan and Senator K. W. Sibraa.

A. J. MESSNER Deputy Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 17

THURSDAY, 4 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.04 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Kilgariff) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1980-81 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80â DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for National Development and Energy, representing the Minister for Administrative Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Department o f Administrative Servicesâ Mr Î. B. MacDonald, Acting Secretary Management Services Divisionâ Mr D. R. White, First Assistant Secretary

Mr S. Wenger, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and General Services Branch Mr P. D. Priestly, Director, Estimates and Expenditure Control Section, Finance and General Services Branch Mr E. L. Knaus, Assistant Secretary, Systems Development Branch Mr J. W. Thorp, Director, Automatic Data Processing, Systems Development

Branch

Secretariat and Policy Divisionâ Mr D. M. Lenihan, First Assistant Secretary Mr Î. P. Lance, MBE, Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary and Ministerial Services Branch

Mr V. K. Peak, Principal Executive Officer, Transitory Accommodation Section, Policy and Executive Projects Branch Honours Secretariatâ Mr Î. E. Keen, Acting Assistant Secretary

Property and Survey Divisionâ Mr K. H. Wellspring, Acting Surveyor-General Mr L. Nielsen, Assistant Secretary, Property Branch Mr R. Stevens, Executive Officer, Accommodation Programming and Projects,

Property Branch Mr P. J. Galvin, Special Adviser, Overseas Operations Branch Mr L. C. Young, Acting Assistant Secretary, Overseas Operations Branch Mr J. McCoy, Acting Principal Executive Officer, Overseas Operations Branch Transport and Storage Divisionâ

Mr J. J. Mason, Acting Assistant Secretary, Planning and Review Branch Information Services Divisionâ Mr P. A. Nott, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr P. Westaway, Acting First Assistant Secretary

Mr W. S. Brooks, Assistant Secretary, Australian Information Services Branch

Purchasing Divisionâ Mr G. A. Low, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr P. G. Woodham, Principal Executive Officer, Operations Management Branch Protective Services Coordination Centreâ

Mr T. H. Mooney, Assistant Secretary, Policy and Planning Branch Bicentennial and Special Eventsâ Mr E. Wigley, First Assistant Secretary Public Order and Police Affairs Divisionâ

Mr G. V. Halliday, First Assistant Secretary Australian Federal Policeâ Mr A. J. Watt, Assistant Commissioner (Operations)

Mr W. J. Ireland, Acting Executive Officer Remuneration Tribunalâ Mr P. OâNeill, Acting Secretary Commonwealth Grants Commissionâ

Mr A. A. Glasson, Secretary Australian Electoral Officeâ Mr H. R. Hegarty, Assistant Secretary, Operations Mr D. P. Reynolds, Director, Management Services

Mr B. R. Nugent, Director, Information and Electoral Education Commonwealth Accommodation and Catering Service Ltdâ Mr J. MacFarland, Deputy General Manager Australian Bicentennial Authorityâ

Mr D. P. Armstrong, General Manager Mr W. C. Fairbanks, Deputy General Manager Department o f Financeâ Mr J. Griffin, Chief Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 130-161â(Document A) Division 250âRent (Defence) (Document A) Division 252âAcquisition of Sites and Buildings ( Defence) (Document A) Division 253âFurniture and Fittings (Defence) (Document A) Division 817-819â(Document B) Division 130-160, 817-819â(Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure

1980-81 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1979-80 for the Department of Administrative Services, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.07 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator B. F. Kilgariff (Chairman), Senator A. J. Messner, Senator G. D. McIntosh, Senator L. W. Neal, Senator S. M. Ryan and Senator K. W. Sibraa.

A. J. MESSNER Deputy Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 18

WEDNESDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 1980

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 6.00 p.m. In the absence of and at the request of the Chairman, the Deputy Chairman (Senator Messner) took the Chair.

2. MINUTES: On the motion of Senator Ryan, the Minutes of the Meetings of 3 and 4 September 1980 were confirmed.

3. CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT: The Committee proceeded to consider the Draft Report. The Committee agreed to the Report, with an amendment.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.07 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator A. J. Messner (Deputy Chairman), and Senators L. W. Neal, S. M. Ryan and K. W. Sibraa.

A. J. MESSNER Deputy Chairman

2 4 0 1 6 / 8 1 - L

Title	Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance - Reports - Together with Hansard record of proceedings - Committees A, B, C, D, E and F on Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for year 1980-81 and departmental expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1980
Source	Senate
Date	11-09-1980
Parliament No.	31
Tabled in Senate	11-09-1980
Parliamentary Paper Year	1980
Parliamentary Paper No.	231
System Id	publications/tabledpapers/HPP032016002270