BROWN, Ms Diane, Acting Deputy Secretary, Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications [via audio link]

CHAPPLE, Ms Clare, Assistant Secretary, Regional Policy and Programs, Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications [via audio link]

DYMOWSKI, Mr Jason, Assistant Secretary, Domestic Policy and Programs, Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications [via audio link]

Mc CLURE, Mr Phil, Acting Assistant Secretary, Airports, Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications [via audio link]

QUIGLEY, Ms Janet, First Assistant Secretary, Domestic Aviation and Reform, Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications [via audio link]

WOLFE, Mr Jim, Assistant Secretary, International Aviation, Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications [via audio link]

WOOD, Mr Richard, First Assistant Secretary, International Aviation, Technology and Services, Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications [via audio link]

[12:1 3 ]

ACTING CHAIR: I now welcome representatives from the Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications via teleconference.

Senator SHELDON: I have some questions about the Retaining Domestic Airline Capability or RDAC payments. Who in what groups were consulted in the development of this scheme?

Ms Brown : Sorry—I just missed that question. Who were the groups involved in developing that scheme?

Senator SHELDON: What groups were consulted on the development of the scheme—of the RDAC?

Ms Brown : We had conversations with the airlines as part of our regular consultations, but also more specific conversations with the airlines, Qantas, Virgin and Rex, around implementation questions and questions of cost, but we always have ongoing conversations and engagement right across the sector, to understand the capability requirements and capability issues arising in the sector. So we have a regular program of consultations across the airports, airlines and various other parts of the sector.

Senator SHELDON: Going back to the development of the scheme, the RDAC: were any unions consulted?

Ms Brown : Not consulted by the department, no.

Senator SHELDON: Was the ground handling alliance consulted?

Ms Quigley : As Ms Brown mentioned, we have a range of consultations on a very regular basis. Ground handlers are included in that. They give us a range of data to understand their current situation and we use that for a range of decisions across government, and so we would have drawn on that data and that information to help shape the program.

Senator SHELDON: What's the logic in not having the outsource companies receive that money, that support, to keep workers connected? What was the logic of that? They've put propositions to you and you've rejected them; on what basis?

Ms Quigley : RDAC is essentially about maintaining a domestic aviation capability, and it's about a core capability. So, on that basis, it was determined that it was about the airlines' direct frontline employees. The scheme gives a minimum of 50 per cent of employees support through the program. The department and government have implemented a range of programs to support aviation, as you know, and there is a specific skills program that goes to support the ground handlers in maintaining their skills and ensuring that their skills are current and they're accredited, to be able to make sure that, when the sector does stand back up, you have a workforce that has their skills and accreditation in order.

Senator SHELDON: This goes to the very heart of the question. Thank you for your answer; I appreciate it. The ground handlers industry alliance informed us this morning that the unintended consequences of the policy initiative have a national effect. Airlines could be grounded in November, December, January and February, right when the country needs to open up. What's your response to that?

Ms Quigley : We're collecting data under this scheme, as we do with all of the programs, and we review that data to understand what's happening in the system, and we're still continuing to talk to our stakeholders to ensure that we've got the most up-to-date information about the COVID impacts. We'll feed that in to government with any future decisions. This program, as you're probably aware, is a 12-week program, and we'll be able to assess the future impacts and be able to provide advice to government as needed, in terms of whether there's any further support that's considered.

Senator SHELDON: Have there been any recommendations for the airlines as to this concern about the November, December, January and February period? And will planes be grounded?

Has any policy been specifically put in place—not consultation, but policy—to make sure that the concerns raised by a series of parties, including the ground handlers industry alliance, are being met?

Ms Quigley : We provide advice to government on a range of issues and on a fairly regular basis in terms of aviation. We will be able to provide advice to government as the program rolls out and, as I mentioned, we'll be able to provide information on the sector, which we do on a regular basis. Any future decisions around the program will be a matter for government.

Senator SHELDON: What advice have you been giving to government about the concerns raised by the ground handlers industry alliance? You haven't answered that question, and so I'm not clear on what your answer is.

Ms Quigley : We would give advice to government on the information that we're receiving, so in terms of the workforce impacts, in terms of the financial impacts that we're seeing. We're reliant on the sector to give us that data, so we've got the evidence base to be able to describe those impacts in detail. We do get that information from the sector and, as we say, when that advice is provided to government, we're able to give that full picture.

Senator SHELDON: You've just rightly said you're more than a conduit for information from organisation to organisation. I know you haven't consulted with unions, but you've said you give advice to the government. What is the advice—and I want to be very clear about this—that you've given regarding the concerns that the airlines will be grounded in November, December, January and February because of the lack of support for retaining trained and skilled staff which has been put to us by the ground handlers industry alliance?

Ms Brown : As Ms Quigley said, we're collecting data across a range of sources to keep government informed about the conditions in the market. As you've been aware, programs will be amended, extended and varied throughout the course of the pandemic and, based on advice—we can't tell you what our advice is—and based on the analysis of data that we hear, the data that we collect, the consultations we have across the sector, we do provide and keep the government informed on a continual basis about the nature of the market and the airline sector in Australia.

Senator SHELDON: I just want to be clear about this. You're saying that the advice you're giving to the minister is something you can share with the committee.

Ms Brown : It's advice to government which we share—

Senator SHELDON: Are you saying cabinet or are you saying the minister?

Ms Brown : Often it will end up in cabinet discussions, so—

Senator SHELDON: But it doesn't always. I'm getting really frustrated with you not answering this question. I've been stuck on this one issue because you've failed to answer it. I will repeat it: airlines could be grounded in November, December, January and February, and you've given me no confidence that you've given any advice to the government that something should be done because of the crisis that's pending.

Ms Brown : We have not heard that from airlines, that they believe they will be grounded in November, December—

Senator SHELDON: No, if I can interrupt you for a moment, I never suggested it was from airlines. I suggested very clearly that it's from the Australian Aviation Ground Handlers Industry Alliance. You say you regularly consult with them.

Ms Brown : I was checking with my colleague. We have not heard that directly from the body that you've heard it from. If they wish to contact us, we're more than happy to meet with them and talk specifically about their concerns. But we have not heard that concern directly from them, as far as I'm aware.

Senator SHELDON: Are you saying that the association, in all the meetings you've had, has never raised concerns about trained staff being retained? Are you asserting that they haven't raised those concerns, or are you saying that they've raised those concerns and you haven't acted on them?

Ms Brown : They have raised concerns about maintaining capability. As Ms Quigley said, there is a government program, the Aviation Services Accreditation Support Program, that was put in place to maintain capability of ground support staff. We do meet with them, we do hear their concerns, but we haven't heard the specific concern that you raised about airlines being grounded in November. That was what I was referring to.

Senator SHELDON: It was November, December, January and February. But I'm asking you a broader question. You're saying that you haven't had those concerns raised by the ground handling alliance. The way you're answering the question just seems implausible because there have been a whole series of public statements from that association, which I gather you monitor, and you can answer that in a moment. I gather they've had meetings with you. They've raised these concerns about the nonretention of staff because of the fact that you've given money in some circumstances only to the airlines, as you've outlined. So are you still saying to me that there have been no concerns raised?

Ms Brown : Possibly we can take that question on notice so I can discuss it with colleagues that may have had more direct conversations.

Senator SHELDON: So you can't tell us whether you've given advice to government on that question?

Ms Brown : We have given advice to government on the need to maintain capability in the sector, and a number of government programs are aimed at doing that. Those programs remain under review and with requirements that we keep the government informed of whether any of the programs need to be extended or varied.

Senator SHELDON: Did you advise the government that there were concerns by the ground handlers alliance about not retaining staff?

Ms Brown : We did raise with government the importance of capability of the sector, including the capability of ground support workers, and you might be aware that RDAC does apply to ground support workers where they're directly employed by the airlines.

Senator SHELDON: I'll go to this same question in a slightly different way. The three-stage process could take months, leading to personnel shortages across Australia from our busiest capital city airports to our lower-volume regional hubs at precisely the time the economy will be opening up. Europe and North America are suffering this aviation labour bottleneck as we speak, which is artificially capping the number of flights that can occur, despite strong demand from the flying public and regulatory approval to open up flight schedules again. These shortages could occur—if we were to use those same examples there in November, December, January and February—if nothing is done. Is that an accurate description?

Ms Quigley : As Ms Brown said, the programs that we've got in place are targeted and set up so that we can review them on a regular basis to amend and adjust as needed. The RDAC program, or the retaining airline capability program, is a new program, as you're aware, and, at the moment, it's going for two months. So, because we're still working in a lot of uncertainty and because the COVID environment is one where we need to work with Health and others to understand the impacts, we will continually review those programs, as Ms Brown said, provide the feedback that we're hearing and the escalating concerns by the sector, and then have discussions with government in terms of what future support might be needed. But, ultimately, that will be a decision for government.

Senator SHELDON: Are you saying that you're taking a cabinet-in-confidence exclusion from you being able to answer the question, regarding what advice you've given regarding concerns raised by the ground handling alliance? Are you taking immunity protection because of cabinet in confidence or some other reason?

Ms Quigley : It would be cabinet in confidence because any decisions around whether the programs are extended are a cabinet decision. So they all get fed into a cabinet process and are, ultimately—

Senator SHELDON: I really hope that the propositions that you've put to the minister fall into that category because I'm deeply concerned that you're not being frank. These companies need to be operating. They need to be able to ramp up when the aviation industry is further opened up, and they've raised serious concerns about not having retained staff because of the lack of financial support for retained staff to be kept within the operations. I'm deeply concerned that you haven't been able to tell us whether or not those concerns are valid. Quite frankly, it sounds like you're avoiding the answer.

Ms Brown : Sorry, we don't mean to give that impression. We are interested in maintaining the capability of ground support workers. In the government's announcement on 2 August in relation to the extension of a number of programs, that included an announcement to extend the Aviation Services Accreditation Support Program. That was extended to the end of the year in recognition of the importance of maintaining the capability of ground support staff. It's a further question that you've asked about whether they need additional support similar to that provided in RDAC, and that is a matter that we would still be considering and looking at data before we provide further advice to government. But government has extended the Aviation Services Accreditation Support Program, which was directly going towards helping the employees that provide ground services to keep their skills and their qualifications current so that they were aviation-ready up until the end of the year.

Senator SHELDON: Thank you for that answer. Is it the department's view that the 11,000 people working for companies like dnata or Swissport don't need the same financial support that the airlines do in the way of retaining staff?

Ms Quigley : The skills package is open to dnata and Swissport. All ground handling companies can avail themselves of that support through the skills package.

Senator SHELDON: My apologies if you misunderstood what I've asked, if I haven't made it clear. These companies have raised the question of the arrangements for airlines—and they're not against the arrangements for airlines; quite the opposite—and the retention money that has been paid over. They may have a view about how it could more effectively be done, but the deep concerns they've raised are that they aren't receiving the same support financially to retain staff. I appreciate you've told me about retention and you've told me about training, but the question is about retaining staff so that they don't go off to other jobs.

Ms Brown : It is true that, where the ground support staff are not directly employed by airlines, they are not receiving the same support as the airlines. They may qualify for other support, and government, in deciding what support to provide, considered the range of support that may be available to a business or a sector as well as the circumstances of the sector, which could include other sources of capital or support that they may have available to them. It then is a decision of government as to who the programs apply to, and it was a decision of government that RDAC applies to airlines.

Senator SHELDON: Can you inform us why the ground handling companies were left out?

Ms Brown : It was a decision of the government. I'm not aware exactly of all the facts that they considered.

Ms Quigley : To date, the focus of our programs has been about minimum connectivity and making sure that we can alleviate some of the cash flow pressures, and the programs have been designed to support both of those agendas. There have been different views on the focus of the programs, but it has been, I think, about making sure that we can have as many flights in the air as possible, because we know that, once that happens, it will flow through the ecosystem of the sector. So, again, this program, I think, is about making sure that we've got the airlines ready to pivot and ramp up as soon as those border closures and hotspots can be eased, and then that flows through to the broader sector. So that's still the fundamental principle of the government support to date.

Senator SHELDON: So can you explain to me why the 11,000 people have been left out of the scheme under what you've just outlined as being priorities?

Ms Quigley : I think what we've focused on to date was the ground handlers relieving some of that cashflow pressure, which is where that training and accreditation package has been focused. We've done the same for the airports in terms of reducing things like their security costs. We'll continue to review. We know that the longer this goes on there will be those increasing pressures. As we get the data we will be able to assess that and support government in making any future decisions.

Senator SHELDON: The skills package isn't a wage subsidy, is it?

Ms Quigley : No, it's not.

Senator SHELDON: If they aren't earning any money people will leave the sector and work elsewhere. That's a loss of trained, skilled people. Are you saying that that's not important?

Ms Quigley : No. We know and appreciate that the sector has to be supported by a skilled workforce and that there are still safety requirements and other accreditation requirements that the sector will have to meet to be able to support aviation activity into the future.

Senator SHELDON: I appreciate your answers are not specifically to the question I am asking, which is about wage subsidies. You are saying that 11,000 people left out of the scheme is an okay consequence for the aviation industry?

Ms Brown : I think we're saying that was the decision of government. That's how you are characterising the program of support the government has extended to the aviation sector. I think that's a question—

Senator SHELDON: My apologies, I didn't mean to interrupt. Again, these are matters which are specifically cabinet-in-confidence or are they matters that you are able to answer today? I just want to be clear. The recommendations that you've made to government—and you said government, but that's ministers, that's potentially the cabinet. I am asking about the advice to the minister, not the advice to the cabinet.

Ms Brown : We have provided advice to the minister, which goes to inform the minister's consideration in cabinet papers and discussions in cabinet.

Senator SHELDON: The department is planning for the future of the aviation sector, including a five-year plan. Do the Federal Court findings regarding Qantas, which has a market share of around 70 per cent of aviation illegally outsourcing its workforce, factor in the department's planning?

Ms Brown : I might need to get Ms Quigley or Mr Wood to answer about the particular Federal Court inquiry that you've referenced, but the government is still developing its response to the aviation sector. We continue to provide advice to government. The government has announced some initiatives that will help the industry post the pandemic. They go to the National Emerging Aviation Technologies Policy Statement released in May. We're also doing work into Sydney Airport demand management but the focus immediately is on dealing with the pandemic as it persists. Any further statements around support for the aviation sector or plans to help the aviation sector post the pandemic are still being developed.

Senator SHELDON: There hasn't been a consideration to the 2,000 jobs that have been found to be illegally outsourced, as those 2000 jobs, obviously, would receive some form of support, because they are no longer working for outsourced companies and would be working for Qantas. Has consideration been given to that?

Ms Brown : We understand that decision is subject to appeal so we think it is more appropriate to wait until it has finished its legal processes.

Senator SHELDON: What do you see as the options if the appeal is unsuccessful or successful?

Ms Quigley : We can't pre-empt the outcomes of a process, but we are very conscious of it. Watching what happens in the sector and seeing how things unfold during recovery is a major part of the department's role in understanding how the sector responds to recovery, but commenting on or pre-empting any court decisions isn't something we can do.

Senator SHELDON: I did not even ask you to pre-empt the decision from the court. What I was asking you, very clearly I think, was whether, in the case of the 2,000 workers—regardless of whether the appeal is successful or not—you have made a decision about what the impact would be on the financial support that you give to the industry in wage subsidies. For you to give consideration to that doesn't require the court's decision. I would hope that you're weighing up, and the minister is asking you to weigh up, those matters. If the minister were not asking you to weigh up those matters, I would be deeply concerned.

Ms Brown : I think you referred to the programs as offering a wage subsidy. We would argue that none of the programs, whether that be RDAC or the international aviation support program, are programs offering a wage subsidy.

Senator SHELDON: By all means, describe the amount of money that's being paid to retain workers any way you like—I'm happy for you to do that—but I'm asking you the same question: have you given any advice, or have you been asked to give advice, regarding the illegal outsourcing of work at Qantas and what the impact would be on the schemes that you're providing to industry to retain staff?

Ms Brown : So we—

Senator SHELDON: You've been asked or you haven't—yes or no.

Ms Brown : The programs are about retaining capability. It's a matter for airlines how they retain capability. That's what we're concerned about. Industrial relations matters would be considered, probably, by a different department—potentially—but, in terms of the programs that you've asked about, we look at that in terms of whether the airlines are maintaining a certain capability.

Senator SHELDON: Again, I'm not asking you about the decision from the court; I'm not asking you that, and I appreciate that—you're right—you wouldn't be the right department to ask about the specific details of any court decision. I'll have to move on. You've avoided answering the question about whether there has been any planning for these 2,000 workers and the impact that it will have on the schemes that have been put in place for the aviation industry. I can only take from the fact that there's no answer that it hasn't been done.

I want to go to this question regarding international aviation support. The international aviation support payments are just $500 per week; the RDAC payments are $750. Is the fact that the RDAC payments are 50 per cent higher a recognition that the $500 per week payments aren't enough?

Mr Wood : I think this goes partly to the point that Ms Brown was just making. The way the international aviation support program is structured is that we provide funding to Australian international passenger airlines for the retention of aviation capability. They determine how that funding is provided—so, the specific support arrangements for their employees. Airlines, of course, report on that so we can equip funding, but the amount of funding that they provide to their staff is ultimately a matter for the airline schemes that they establish. We do not mandate, in the international aviation support package, how much airlines actually pay to their staff.

Senator SHELDON: The international aviation support payments are scheduled to finish in October as well. Is that because we expected the vaccine rollout to be more progressed by next month?

Mr Wood : The international aviation support package was announced in March, and, obviously, circumstances have changed since then. At that time, there were announcements by airlines that they were considering operations in the later part of this year, but circumstances have changed. As has been indicated previously, the program will be reviewed prior to it expiring on 31 October, and in our advice to government we will consider things such as the state of the market and the likelihood and timing of potential reopening.

Senator SHELDON: Has consideration been given to the fact that we're now looking at 17 December, if I've got the date right, for the reopening? Has the department made any recommendations to the minister that it should be extended to the areas such as those raised by the ground handling industry alliance, that the wage subsidy scheme should be extended to them?

Mr Wood : We're in the process of finalising advice to government on the program post 31 October, should it continue. So we haven't provided advice to government on issues on the future of the program at this stage, but we'll be doing so shortly. I can't go into the scope of that advice as it's yet to be determined.

Senator SHELDON: On the question of the moneys that are being paid for wage subsidies within the industry, do you concur with the views of the ground handler industry alliance that large numbers of people are leaving the industry?

Ms Quigley : We've heard, as you said this morning, that that is what they're saying. We would need to be able to collect the evidence in terms of that data. I think the numbers that some of the ground-handling organisations were talking about this morning were a bit uncertain. But through our conversations with the sector, we will be certainly looking to try to quantify those impacts.

Senator SHELDON: I want to go back to some evidence that was given before that raised the question about airlines or aviation companies—I took it to be airlines, so please correct me if I'm wrong—that need to work out how, for example, the international aviation support payments are paid. Is there concern that companies are making arbitrary decisions which may not be in the national interest? For example, if you're Alan Joyce, you've got 70 per cent of the market and you're probably trying to work out how to get more. Are you concerned about there being a robust outsource industry plus a robust system that takes into account that airlines will not always operate in the national interest?

Ms Brown : Each of the programs, both the international aviation support scheme and RDAC, are subject to program guidelines. Those guidelines set out the eligible uses for which money can be used as well as uses for which money cannot be used. The programs are subject to rigorous reporting on a regular basis, sometimes as much as weekly, so that we ensure compliance with the program guidelines and that the funds are being used only in accordance with the program guidelines.

Senator SHELDON: Chair, I have a few more questions, but I'm mindful of time.

ACTING CHAIR: Thank you, Senator Sheldon. I would like to ask a couple of questions. With regard to the ground support staff package, would you be able to detail it further for me please?

Ms Quigley : Sorry, I missed the end of that. Was it that we detail the program?

ACTING CHAIR: Yes, thank you.

Ms Quigley : I'll start and my colleague Mr Dymowski may come in with more detail. It's called the Aviation Services Accreditation Support program. It was announced on 11 March and it provides $52 million of relief directly to ground handling providers for training and certification of new and existing staff. It's a grants program and, as Ms Brown mentioned, we've extended the time frame now until the end of the year. It covers the costs of training of staff that require accreditation and skills to be maintained and to be current for them to be able to return as the aviation sector activity increases.

Ms Brown : Maybe I can add a little bit of extra detail here. Grant agreements have been executed with 13 eligible applicants. One additional application is currently being assessed. The applications included applications from small ground handling providers in regional airports to major providers servicing city and international airports, so it is a broad program that is supporting right across the sector.

ACTING CHAIR: Senator Sheldon was asking some questions about consultation. My understanding was that you said you had consulted with some of the groups that were named, the ground handlers industry alliance amongst those. Did I understand that correctly, or did I miss something there?

Ms Quigley : We get regular correspondence from across the sector, in terms of the kinds of supports that they need and would be seeking from government, and we engage on a regular basis. So we would take that information and feed that into the design of the programs.

ACTING CHAIR: I imagine that you're getting correspondence from lots of different sectors over there—given the challenges of going through COVID at the moment, I guess that's not surprising—including truck drivers and other infrastructure supply chain industry groups. When you think about it, there's a lot of distress right across Australia about how we keep people connected to industries that are really challenged at the moment, isn't there? I just wanted to clarify that about the ground support packages. Senator McCarthy, do you have questions?

Senator McCARTHY: No, I'll put my questions on notice.

Senator SHELDON: I just want to move to the Tourism Aviation Network Support program. When JobKeeper ended, the program intended replacing it with subsidised airfares through the Tourism Aviation Network Support, or TANS, program. Is it fair to say that over the last few months, with much of the country in and out of lockdowns, the TANS program has done very little to support any aviation workers?

Ms Quigley : The program was, as you say, established to provide 50 per cent reductions on domestic fares. It had significant uptake in the beginning of the program, but I agree that travel has slowed. As you would expect, with limited movement and restrictions across states, travel for tourism related activity has certainly slowed down significantly.

Ms Brown : In recognition of that, the government have, as we've said previously, looked at their programs and varied them when they have needed to. This was another program that has now been extended. Initially tickets had to be booked by the 31st for travel by 30 September. This has now been extended to 30 November to make sure that the program can have the full effect and help tourism and regional economies as much as possible.

Senator SHELDON: When TANS was introduced, was the assumption that we wouldn't be suffering from more lockdowns like those we've had over the last few months?

Ms Quigley : I think it was very difficult for us to predict what was going to happen in the future, but this program was certainly meant to stimulate activity both in terms of driving the increased activity on airlines and across the aviation sector but also in terms of stimulating that economic tourism activity in those agreed regions.

Senator SHELDON: If I understand correctly you're saying to me there wasn't preparation that there might be further lockdowns and we have to think about how TANS might be applied in those circumstances? There was no review or consideration of the effectiveness of the TANS program?

Ms Quigley : I think we've set the programs up so that we can amend and adjust as needed, because we've had to do that ever since we started with the support last year. We've certainly created enough flexibly in the systems to be able to pivot and flex. We would've hoped that recovery would've been better than now, but, again, we've adjusted the program to reflect the current situation. The programs are designed to give us that flexibility, because it's a non-linear recovery. We've seen that the whole way through.

Senator SHELDON: Were lockdowns in the calculation of the TANS Program—that lockdowns may continue?

Ms Quigley : The program was around a period of time. I think we were prepared for there to need to be adjustments if that had to occur.

Senator SHELDON: Sorry, I'm not really clear on your answers. Does that mean the lockdowns were considered as part of the program?

Ms Quigley : Contingencies were there for us to be able to recognise that the situation may change. We weren't going to predict that they were going to be hotspots or lockdowns, because that's difficult for anybody to do. But I think we recognise that it's a volatile environment. The programs are flexible enough to respond to that.

Senator SHELDON: How many TANS tickets have been sold since the Sydney lockdowns started on 26 June?

Ms Quigley : I might get my colleague Mr Dymowski to take you through that piece of information.

Senator SHELDON: Sorry, just to clarify part of that question—excluding any that have been refunded or cancelled.

Mr Dymowski : We will have to take the specific dates that you've mentioned on notice. We have seen significant cancellations, as you would expect through the lockdown periods with people under stay-at-home orders and other restrictions.

Senator SHELDON: Yes, if you can take that on notice. I'll go to a question about training, skilling and maintaining people within the industry. As you'd appreciate, prior to COVID there were predications that there would be a shortage of pilots. When the aviation industry restarts, logic says that not only would there be protection for a shortage of pilots to continue, but it might be more exasperated, because of the fact that people have left the industry. Part of that exasperation with the industry, as I understand it, part of the consequences of that, is that those who have left companies aren't able to get training initiatives for their ongoing licensing, and also retraining because they are no longer working for a particular airline. Have you looked at addressing that issue?

Ms Quigley : I think in terms of the recovery plan that we're looking at, workforce is going to be a key part of that and understanding how COVID is going to impact particular parts of the workforce, and pilots would be one of those. That work is ongoing. We haven't got a position on that, but we are certainly considering that in detail.

Senator SHELDON: I'll then include licenced engineers. There are others—obviously, security guards at airports require many weeks of mentoring to be able to properly check baggage. Has consideration been given to those workers that have left the industry and how we should retain those people, so we are ready for ramping back up?

Ms Brown : When we are thinking about the workforce we are thinking across the spectrum of the workforce. I certainly appreciate that there are a range of skills that are required, depending on the workforce make up. When we are considering workforce it will be looking at the sector's workforce. As I say, we're still working through that. We haven't got any definitive outcomes. We are relying on the sector to give us the data that we need to unpack that further.

Senator SHELDON: Since we have just a few seconds left, I will hand back to the Chair.

ACTING CHAIR: Your timing is quite excellent. Thank you very much, Senator Sheldon. Thank you very much to you, Ms Brown, Ms Quigley, Mr Wood and other department officials who've come on. Thank you for your time preparing for today for your presentation.

Pr oceedings suspended from 13:00 to 13:30