TONY JONES
Good evening and welcome to Q&A. I’m Tony Jones. Here to answer your questions tonight, senior Labor frontbencher Anthony Albanese, independent candidate and likely member for Wentworth Kerryn Phelps, feminist author Anne Summers, New South Wales Liberal Party president Philip Ruddock, and political commentator Peter van Onselen. Please welcome our panel.

Thank you. Q&A is live in eastern Australia on ABC TV, iview and NewsRadio.

Over the weekend, the Morrison government faced its first electoral test. Our first question is on that, obviously. It comes from Dan Berry.


DISILLUSIONED LIBERAL00:01:03


DAN BERRY
My question is for Mr Ruddock. I’m a disillusioned Liberal voter that voted on Saturday for Dr Phelps in the Wentworth by-election. After losing what has previously been a safe Liberal seat for over 70 years, will the party finally address the toxic right-wing element that has hijacked the traditional values of the party and oppose the preselection of these right-wing members, such as Tony Abbott?

TONY JONES
Philip Ruddock.

PHILIP RUDDOCK, NSW LIBERAL PARTY PRESIDENT
Well, let me first start by congratulating Kerryn Phelps. She ran a very, very vigorous campaign, and it may possibly be successful for her, and I acknowledge very much the campaign that she ran.

TONY JONES
You’re expecting it to be successful, by the sound of it?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
I am aware that it has been getting tighter, but the numbers are still, I think, fairly difficult to overcome. But...

PETER VAN ONSELEN, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND AUTHOR
It’s over.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Well... You were the one that was holding out hope on Sunday. I noticed that.

PETER VAN ONSELEN
I wouldn’t use the word ‘hope’, but I was cautious.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
But let me deal with the question as I may. Um... John Howard used to talk about the Liberal Party and the need for it to be a broad church. I come from a particular perspective. I like to think that I am a liberal, not a conservative, but I recognise that it is important to have people with a broad spectrum of views in the political party if we’re going to be able to govern. But you need to function as a team. And I would say, very much, as far as the party is concerned, the effort has to be to ensure that they’re all going to play on the wicket together.

TONY JONES
What happens, Philip, when too many of the conservatives decide who sits in the pews...

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Well...

TONY JONES
...of your broad church?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Let me just say, I am of the view that the party should always select the best candidate. And I would make this point about what happened in Wentworth - we would have had in Dave Sharma, I think, an outstanding member of parliament. He came through a process which is as I want to see the process - that is that the party has a wide field of candidates from whom to choose, and people make their judgement on the day on who they believe can be the best member of parliament.

But I do want to make one other observation - you should not make assumptions about particular outcomes and suggest that that’s where it will end up. When I first stood for public life in 1973, I had a margin of something like 10,000 votes. There was an election, you may or may not remember, in 1974, it was the first Whitlam double dissolution, and I only held my seat then by 1,300 votes. Six months later. The changes that can occur in relation to by-elections are always very significant. And one ought not to assume that because you lose that you can’t claw it back.

TONY JONES
OK. Peter van Onselen.

PETER VAN ONSELEN
Look, I think the problem, to answer the question, with the right wing of the Liberal Party is that it calls itself conservative now when it no longer is. I call them reactionaries, because true conservatives are protectors of institutions and they’re very incremental about change without opposing change per se, whereas the so-called conservatives, which I don’t think actually fit the title now, they’re not protecting institutions - they’re prepared to blow them up. For example, the institution of prime minister. And, equally, they’re not open to incremental change, even, but they’re reacting to the sort of policy shifts that they see as either popular with their base or populist in a way that they can utilise in a sort of electoral sense. So I think that’s the real problem with the right wing of the Liberal Party. I like the concept of the balance between conservatism and liberalism in the Liberal Party, but I don’t think that the isms are being represented by the people in parliament, or indeed by the power brokers that now control those sections.

TONY JONES
Kerryn Phelps, what do you think? And, by the way, do you think that the question is onto a point that helped you come very close to, if not win this seat?

KERRYN PHELPS, INDEPENDENT CANDIDATE FOR WENTWORTH
Well, I’ve been on the ground in Wentworth for the last four or five weeks, talking to people who were considering their vote in this Wentworth by-election. And there’s no question that there was a lot of anger and frustration with the direction the Liberal Party has been taking. They don’t like the lurch to the right. They wanted to see a candidate who was going to bring the electorate back to the sensible centre, if you like, and more generally the Liberal Party back to the sensible centre. They wanted more socially progressive policies, and they weren’t hearing that from the federal Liberal Party. All they were hearing about was the factional infighting within the Liberal Party, and self-interest, and not about the interest of the Australian people. And that’s one of the things that they were reacting to.

TONY JONES
Now, we’ve got another question on this from Carolina Murdoch, before I bring in the other panellists. Let’s get her question. Carolina.


FACTIONAL DIVISION00:06:13


CAROLINA MURDOCH
It’s long been argued that the left side of politics self-destructs as a result of ideological divisions. So are we now looking at this happening to the right?

TONY JONES
Anthony Albanese.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, SENIOR LABOR MP
Well, I think the problem with the right wing of the Liberal Party at the moment is that they’re frightened of the present and what modern Australia is, but they’re terrified of the future. So they’re not able to foreshadow a path to that future. It’s all about looking backwards. And they actually had... There’s some talk about Malcolm Turnbull’s contribution or non-contribution in Wentworth. I mean, on Friday night, the Bellevue Hill branch of the Liberal Party - they’re in the heartland of Wentworth - held a forum with Tony Abbott, Craig Kelly, Andrew Hastie, all these right-wing warriors, to talk about resisting the left in Australia, instead of campaigning on the by-election. And I...I just found it absolutely extraordinary.

And I think, within the Labor Party, of course there are factions in the Labor Party, but there’s a consensus about a general direction forward. Within the Liberal Party, there are people who argue that Malcolm Turnbull - caucus colleagues - Malcolm Turnbull wasn’t a legitimate Liberal. He was a socialist who entered into the Liberal Party and somehow took it over. And that’s why they’ve got a fundamental problem, and that’s why what we could be seeing is the early stages of an absolute schism on the right of Australian politics.

TONY JONES
Can I just make one point - that is, if it were not for the factional system in the Labor Party, you’d be the leader, wouldn’t you?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well... We have...we have a system that does provide some order, but we also have a system whereby we give all the rank-and-file members of the party a vote. We engage... Most people in the Labor Party aren’t members of factions. But there’s a consensus about the big issues. We’re not arguing about whether climate change exists or not, we’re not arguing about whether we need to move to equality, whether it be on the of basis of gender or sexuality or race or religion.

TONY JONES
OK, Anthony.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Those arguments have gone.

TONY JONES
That wasn’t an invitation to give a stump speech.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well, why not?

TONY JONES
It was a question that you definitely avoided. Anne Summers.

ANNE SUMMERS, AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST
I think the Liberal Party might as well change its name to the Lemmings Party, because, you know, they are headed over a cliff big-time and there’s nothing going to stop it. I mean, the thought that there could be any reconciliation between the one remaining liberal left in the party and the so-called conservatives - I agree with Peter, they’re… Actually, ‘reactionary’ is probably even too kind a word.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
“The one remaining”?

ANNE SUMMERS
Uh, yourself.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
I don’t accept that. I don’t accept that.

ANNE SUMMERS
Well, they’re very few and far between, very hard to find. I mean, I think the biggest problem in Wentworth was the failure to elect a woman candidate. And to say that the candidate who was elected is a great guy… I’m sure he is, but the point is, in a party which has a very low percentage of women candidates, which is going to decline dramatically after the next election, to forego the opportunity in this seat, to not... And there were three women candidates they could have chosen from. I mean, Kerryn might not be as happy tonight if they’d done that. In fact, you might not even have run if they’d chosen a good woman candidate. But it was such an obvious thing for them to have done - why didn’t they do it?

TONY JONES
Well, can we...? Can we...? Philip’s the state president. So, could you not find a woman qualified enough to take that position?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Look, I don’t want to reflect upon the quality of candidates.

ANNE SUMMERS
But that’s the question. That’s what you’re being asked to do.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
No. Well... No, let me be very clear that, in relation to these matters, I am keen to see as large a field as possible from whom to choose. And what happened in Wentworth was we had a field that was very, very strong. And it finished on the basis of the way in which each of the candidates presented themselves and spoke. And it’s regrettable that the women candidates in that situation were not able to contribute in the same way that Dave Sharma...

TONY JONES
Philip, is it true that the first woman under consideration came fourth in the ballot?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Well, I mean, it is true that the first four were men.

TONY JONES
So, fifth, actually?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
That’s right.

TONY JONES
So the first woman came fifth in the ballot?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
And all I can say is that I am one who in Australia appointed women to the High Court of Australia, probably more women than any other Attorney-General.

ANNE SUMMERS
But how are you going to appoint more women to parliament?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
And I make the point that you need to have people with the skills and talents prepared to present themselves. And we, as a party, need to be out there seeking them and encouraging them.

TONY JONES
Peter wants to jump in here, obviously. Keep it short, ‘cause we’ve got other questions.

PETER VAN ONSELEN
Things, I think, are so bad in terms of gender for the Liberal Party now that they need something to get women to WANT to present themselves. And, like it or not, even if it’s short-term, that’s a quota system now. Now, Liberals constantly say, “We don’t support quotas on philosophical grounds.” Well, you’ve got a quota for the number of Nationals in cabinet in your Coalition agreement. You looked at quotas for male primary school teachers during the Howard years, as you’d well know, as an option. You’ve got a quota for the factional make-up of the frontbench. You’ve got a quota for the Senate, per state... There’s quotas for everything. But suddenly, when it’s about gender, “We philosophically oppose quotas.” That’s the problem.

TONY JONES
OK, we’re going to come back to that question later. The next question is from Isabella Boag Taylor.


OTHER TURNBULL00:12:04


ISABELLA BOAG TAYLOR
Anthony Albanese, considering the way Alex Turnbull, son of Malcolm, was able to mobilise voters to denounce the Liberal Party in Wentworth, should the Labor Party invite him to run as a Labor candidate in the next federal election?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Uh...no, and... And I don’t think, with respect to Alex Turnbull’s intervention... I’ve never seen anything suggesting from him that he was a supporter of the Labor Party. He supported Kerryn in this by-election. And that’s not surprising given the way that his father was treated.

TONY JONES
Were you surprised that Alex was in fact the only member of the Turnbull family, including his father, the former Prime Minister, to express a strong opinion about who should win that seat?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well, I was not surprised that Malcolm Turnbull felt as though he had been badly treated by his party. We had circumstances whereby from his perspective he thought he was in a winning position. That’s arguable. But certainly he was competitive, and the idea that Peter Dutton was the answer was pretty bizarre, I think. And Scott Morrison came through and became prime minister with half a dozen supporters - that’s all - in the caucus.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Can I be mischievous? I must say I thought Alex was a friend of the Labor candidate and in fact advocated for the Labor candidate. That was my thought. And until the Labor candidate was essentially running dead, you know, he was out there advocating for him as a friend, I thought.

TONY JONES
OK, let’s go back...

ANTHONY ALBANESE
As a friend, but not politically.

TONY JONES
I want to hear what Kerryn Phelps thinks about this, because the idea that the Liberal MPs are stating today - or a number of them - is that if Malcolm Turnbull had expressed his direct support for Sharma, he would have beaten you.

KERRYN PHELPS
Look, I don’t want to get too deeply into the analytics. I’ve been focusing on the issues that are important to the people in Wentworth and to the people of Australia. We’ve got a bright future ahead of us as Australians if we get this right. And, you know, there were issues of such monumental importance to our future, like action on climate change, the treatment of asylum seekers, the future of the ABC, a national integrity commission. These are the issues that people actually really wanted to talk about.

TONY JONES
We’re going to talk about them, but we’re looking at the entrails just for a minute. Do you think it would have made a difference if Turnbull had supported Sharma?

KERRYN PHELPS
I don’t...I don’t know. I can’t really say. I mean, there was a lot of anger about the way Malcolm Turnbull was treated. He was a popular local member. There are a lot of people who were very disturbed about that way that he was removed, and that was certainly a big factor. Whether he’d come back in and said, “All is forgiven, everything’s fine,” I think that’s just fantasy.

TONY JONES
Yeah. Philip Ruddock, your national president, Nick Greiner, of the Liberal Party, said that Turnbull was being precious. and that had he even sent out a tweet supporting Sharma, that Sharma might well have won. Do you agree with that?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Look, I don’t have a judgement in relation to whether he would or would not have been able to influence the matter. My view is that he has to make his own judgement as to what he thinks was appropriate in all the circumstances. The only comment I would make is that I think we do, in Australia, treat former prime ministers appallingly. And I look...

TONY JONES
We treat prime ministers appallingly, so you could start there.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
...former prime ministers appallingly.

TONY JONES
Yes.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
That’s why we’ve got so many former...

PHILIP RUDDOCK
No, let me be very clear that if you go to the United Kingdom, you know, if they’re not in the House of Commons for years afterwards, they’re elevated to the House of Lords. And I think they are respected, but they have to be prepared to behave in a way which is positive and constructive. And I think what has happened in Australia is that the prime ministers have essentially moved on, and I think that’s very unfortunate, because I think they can contribute very positively if they’re minded to do so.

TONY JONES
I was thinking Lord Malcolm of Point Piper, but I’m not sure that would satisfy him. Peter van Onselen, the backlash from at least some sections of the Liberal Party today was pretty profound, and you spoke against it.

PETER VAN ONSELEN
Yeah, look, I don’t think Malcolm Turnbull can win. I think if he... He doesn’t campaign and he gets accused of therefore being, you know, somebody that cost them the seat. If he does campaign, he probably gets accused of being a distraction. And he probably would become a distraction to some extent. He gets accused of being a bad campaigner, that’s why he had to go as prime minister, but suddenly they needed him in the seat of Wentworth.

I think he could have made a difference. I don’t blame him for not engaging after the way he was tweeted... Treated, I should say. But there’s a lot of things that led to them losing that seat. Maybe he could have saved it. Maybe if they hadn’t supported Pauline Hanson’s ‘It’s OK to be white’ motion, maybe if the Jerusalem play hadn’t happened, maybe if a whole series of things had changed - selecting a woman, selecting somebody from the area... As good a candidate as Dave Sharma is for politics, he wasn’t from the area. All of these were factors, so you can’t just drop it on Malcolm Turnbull.

TONY JONES
Anne, what do you think?

ANNE SUMMERS
Well, you kick a guy out of a job because you don’t like him and you say he’s not even a Liberal, and then you cry because he hasn’t come and helped you save the seat that you took away from him. I mean, this is kindergarten stuff.

KERRYN PHELPS
Mm.

ANNE SUMMERS
And this is symptomatic of what is wrong with the Liberal Party. And the fact that they can’t seem to understand that and they articulate these absurd justifications for what’s gone wrong is... I mean, I don’t think they realise how much people are just laughing at them.

TONY JONES
Let’s move on. Next question is from Peter Frohlich.

ANNE SUMMERS
It’s sad. Sad, really.

TONY JONES
Peter.


BY-ELECTION MANDATE00:18:06


PETER FROHLICH
Peter van Onselen has suggested that as a result of the Wentworth by-election that the government has lost the right to govern. And I understand his point. But equally, should an independent candidate such as Dr Phelps - congratulations - who gained just 29% of the primary vote and secured a victory with a margin of just 1,650 votes in an electorate that numbers about 100,000, and in a by-election at that, be entitled to promote an agenda that is in conflict in so many areas with the policies of the government that won its majority at a general election? And put slightly differently - does a margin of just 1,650 votes entitle an independent to potentially hold an elected government, even a narcissistic government, to ransom?

TONY JONES
Kerryn.

KERRYN PHELPS
My view is that the role of an independent on the crossbench is not to hold the government to ransom, it’s to hold the government to account. And I think it’s very important at this time when the government appears to be not only in confusion, but in utter chaos, if you look at the last couple of weeks, that we do have a stabilising effect of the crossbenchers, who are able to look at legislation and modify it where necessary, to reject bad legislation, to negotiate with government for better outcomes for the Australian people.

Because at the moment we have a government that, for example, with the ‘It’s OK to be white’ Senator Hanson motion last week, we had the Liberal senators voting for that motion apparently unaware they were voting for something that was using slogans from the white supremacist movement in the United States, and then the next day saying, “Oops, we didn’t mean to do that,” and, “Let’s have another go at it because we didn’t read the motion and didn’t understand what we were voting on.” Now, that is just poor governance, and that’s not the way to govern a country.

So, you know, the crossbench, with strong local independents and minor party members, can actually get to speak to the government about their concerns and indicate why they are voting against a particular piece of legislation, but at least to interrogate it with some intellectual rigour, and to be actually knowing what you’re voting on and knowing what you’re debating. So, I think there is now a very strong role for independents, and we’re seeing a move towards independents in other parts of the world as well. And this may well be the dawn of a new era, rather than an anomaly.

TONY JONES
Quick question - if you work closely with the crossbench, do you believe you can force real policy change? That’s about your agenda, as opposed to the government’s, as the questioner’s asking.

KERRYN PHELPS
I think, you know, a lot has been said about the balance of power, but I think actually the real issue here is the power of balance. And I think that a good solid crossbench with strong local representation can actually provide that balance that I think the debate needs, and the nuance that the debate needs, rather than sort of, you know, there’s this view from this tribe and there’s this view from this tribe. But where’s the middle ground? Where’s the sensible centre? And that’s what I would seek to bring to the crossbench, is that sensible centre.

TONY JONES
Let’s test you on a couple of actual policies.

Now, remember, if you hear any doubtful claims on Q&A, let us know on Twitter. Keep an eye on the RMIT, ABC Fact Check and the website Convers...and The Conversation website, I should say, for the results.

Next question is from Melanie Saunders.


OFFSHORE DETENTION00:21:33


MELANIE SAUNDERS
My question is for you, Kerryn. You’ve said that you are ashamed of the policy of offshore detention and that as a doctor and a human being it offends you. Could you please describe exactly how you will work to support an immediate end to offshore detention?

KERRYN PHELPS
Just before we came on set tonight, I heard the news that 16 very ill...

TONY JONES
Sorry, I need to correct that. It’s now... And the Border Force has corrected this. It’s now 11 children have been brought back to Australia, not 16. Sorry.

KERRYN PHELPS
That’s 11 children who have been rescued from appalling circumstances. And I believe we can thank the voters of Wentworth for that result, because it has been front and centre in the debate. There have been refugee forums within the electorate of Wentworth over the last few weeks, and I’ve spoken at those forums. A lot of people at the polling booths have approached me about it and indicated that they are very concerned about it. I’ve spoken with refugee advocates. And I believe that we do need to bring an end to offshore detention. I think it’s cruel and unusual punishment. I don’t think it sits well with the Australian consciousness. And I think that it is time that it is brought to an end.

Now, we need to bring all of the children and their families, not just the very sick children - we don’t wait till there’s an emergency, but all of the children and their families - to Australia for urgent medical, psychological and community treatment. I mean, we need to have children who are growing up in a normal community environment with appropriate social supports and keeping those families together. I think we also need to look at the options that are on the table for resettlement options. And the New Zealand option is, I think, a very good interim measure at least.

TONY JONES
OK, can I...? But just to get back to the question, I think, is there something that you could do with the crossbench? Would you, for example, support a no-confidence motion on this issue if it came up, if the government had not moved to remove all the refugee and asylum seeker children? There are 52 still on Nauru. There are 107 families still there. They’re Border Force figures from tonight. Would you be prepared to use what power you have in the balance of power to do something on this issue?

KERRYN PHELPS
Look, I think the most important thing is that we give, now, the government an opportunity to respond to what the people have said. The people have spoken on this issue, I believe, in this by-election.

TONY JONES
But is there a subtle threat behind that that there could be support of a no-confidence motion if that didn’t happen?

KERRYN PHELPS
I’d rather work by encouragement. I think the government will be encouraged to take action, as they have done today, and with an election looming in May of next year, the government will be judged on its response to this. And I don’t think it will take a motion of no-confidence to have them act on this. I think that the writing’s on the wall with this particular issue.

TONY JONES
OK, we’ve got another question on this before I bring in the other panellists. It’s from Yusra Metwally.


OFFSHORE CHILD ABUSE00:24:40


YUSRA METWALLY
Prime Minister Scott Morrison, architect of the ‘stop the boats’ policy, gave an emotionally charged yet overdue apology today to victims and survivors of institutional child sexual abuse, apologising for their stolen childhoods. He received a telling reaction from Behrouz Boochani, an award-winning journalist incarcerated in Manus Island. Behrouz pointed to the paradox of apologising for institutional child abuse occurring in Australia, while enabling abuse to occur to children under the watch of the Australian government in offshore detention. When will politicians extend their concern to the safety of refugee children living in Australian institutions offshore?

TONY JONES
Philip Ruddock?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Well, let me make it very clear, I don’t think children should be abused anywhere, any time. But I tell you, there are millions of children around the world in some of the most appalling circumstances that you could imagine. I thought I should at least ask the question - how many of you have been to Cox’s Bazar? Do you know Cox’s Bazar? One million people removed from Burma into Bangladesh. I was there several weeks ago. They are in the most appalling circumstances. One million. Most of them, women and children. 65 million displaced people around the world, 22.5 million who are refugees. I think we should be able to help those who need help most. I think there needs to be a focus on getting resolution so that these situations can be resolved. I want to see a situation where people are able to go back home and rebuild their lives in safety and dignity. I don’t hear the efforts in relation to that. I hear the efforts in relation to the few.

Let me say, I understand… And I only get it from newspapers - I was reading a Peter Hartcher piece over the weekend, in which he suggested that most of the children were shortly to be removed from Nauru to the United States of America, under the arrangements that we have. Now, that may be right, it may be wrong, but I gather that they are talking about that. People want to get it resolved. When I’d been minister and we had offshore detention, most of the people had been removed at that time before the Howard government lost office. And I have to say...

TONY JONES
So doesn’t that principle still hold here?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
You need to work at it. Yes, you do.

TONY JONES
And the 53 children you’re talking about, some of whom have serious mental illness, or signs of it, according to the doctors that are treating them, have been there for a very long time - up to five years. Would you have allowed that to happen? You know, you were the immigration minister, it was a tough policy. Would you have allowed children to remain on Nauru for five years?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
No, let me just make the point - I think…

TONY JONES
No, that’s just a quick question for you.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
No, I think you need to deal with these things in a way that does not bring to the attention of those who are intent on abusing the system that you will eventually get what you want if you keep the pressure on. And it is, in my view, a matter that you have to deal with a great deal of delicacy. You don’t abuse people, but I don’t think you can be seen to be allowing...

TONY JONES
These children are said to be suffering from resignation syndrome, that is to say they no longer believe they have any hope of leaving the island. So they’re resigned to it and they’re suffering as a result. Does that concern you at all? I mean, we’ve heard your concern about the million refugees...

PHILIP RUDDOCK
I am concerned always about...

TONY JONES
What about the few that Australia has responsibility for?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
I am always concerned to deal with them as humanely as possible in all the circumstances. But I have to say that what happened last time is that we had nobody in detention. And within a short period of time, we had 50,000 people turn up on boats in 18 months.

TONY JONES
OK, I’m going to...

PHILIP RUDDOCK
You’ve got to be careful about what you wish for, Tony.

TONY JONES
Philip, I’m going to...

PHILIP RUDDOCK
And when you...

TONY JONES
I’m going to allow the other panellists to respond to it as well. I mean, those are well-rehearsed arguments.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
No, they’re not. They’re what I believe. I’ve spent most of my time in public life focusing on refugees. I’ve been to all the camps in the Middle East.

TONY JONES
They’re well-known arguments...

PHILIP RUDDOCK
I’ve been around Africa.

TONY JONES
...and we’ve heard them before, is what I’m saying. Peter van Onselen?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
They need to be emphasised over and over again, in my view.

PETER VAN ONSELEN
I wrote about this when doing John Howard’s biography. As harsh as Howard’s policies were, which you were at the heart of, Philip, they were nothing like this government’s policies, in the sense that your government, or John Howard’s government, didn’t leave people there indefinitely. You quietly moved them on when the spotlight wasn’t on them, so that it wouldn’t lead to, in your view, further boats coming because of some sort of incentive for further boats to arrive.

What this government has done is just left them there as a sort of form of reverse bait, a disincentive for other boats to arrive. And rather than take the opportunities that they have had for years to get them better health care, to get them out of this indefinite detention, they were left there. And by leaving them there, now the spotlight’s on it, so now they’re worried if you get them off it becomes an incentive for boat arrivals. Well, that’s their fault, because they didn’t do what you did and get them off earlier, when there wasn’t a spotlight on it.

TONY JONES
Anthony Albanese, where is Labor on this?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
We can protect our borders without losing our national soul. And when you have kids left for five years, who are suffering from mental health issues, who doctors are telling us they need assistance, we need to listen to that medical advice. We need to take action and get those kids the care that they need. And the argument about knocking back New Zealand... I mean, you would think the United States was a Third World country. We are settling people in the United States. There is no reason whatsoever why the same arrangements that are there for the United States can’t be there for New Zealand. And that means the figure that New Zealand have said, under Prime Minister Ardern, and under her predecessor as well - Bill English, and John Key, from the conservatives - all said they would take a proportion of people every year that’s greater than the number of children that you just mentioned. So it is possible to resolve this. The fact is that the people who arrived on the Tampa... And I disagree with some of what occurred there. We won’t get into all those debates. But they were settled here. There are people here now who arrived on the Tampa.

TONY JONES
Just a quick question for you, and it’s the obvious one really - would a Labor government ever detain children in offshore detention centres again?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well, what a Labor government would do is ensure... We aim to ensure that you stop the boats.

TONY JONES
But is that…? It’s really… Well, you should be able to answer that by a yes or a no. Would Labor…

ANTHONY ALBANESE
No, that’s not right, because you’re assuming that it doesn’t work. That’s the assumption - that you’ve got kids in detention…

TONY JONES
Let’s assume...

ANTHONY ALBANESE
I’m not assuming that.

TONY JONES
Let’s assume that you believe it works. Would you continue to do it in government?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well, there wouldn’t be any, Tony. That’s the point. I think you can have strong border protection without having the step that this government has done, which is to perhaps conscious...it’s either conscious or due to incompetence, leave people there beyond any reasonable frame when it could have been sorted out. You can’t tell me that a nation like Australia… And I’ll say the other thing about what we would do - because we would have regional processing, because we would fund the UNHCR properly, because we would double the numbers, we would be in a position to have much stronger negotiations with our neighbours and other countries in the region as well.

TONY JONES
Yes, quickly, Kerryn, ‘cause I want to go to Anne Summers.

KERRYN PHELPS
As it turns out, when Philip Ruddock was the immigration minister, I was the president of the AMA. And I went along to have a discussion with Mr Ruddock, and there were hundreds of children in detention here in Australia, and I argued for them to be released at the time. And it took a coalition of medical and psychological professionals to force that issue at the time. The medical profession now has risen up again and said this is unacceptable to have these children in detention on Nauru and it must end. And I believe that that leadership from the medical profession is something that will be ultimately central to a resolution of this.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Hear, hear.

KERRYN PHELPS
But we need to engage with Asia as well, because the conditions for people who are refugees in Malaysia and Thailand and other countries in the region are also intolerable. They don’t have legal rights. They don’t have support. They don’t have work. And so Australia could engage with Asia to negotiate improved conditions for people, so they didn’t feel the need to try and escape from those countries.

And the third thing that we can do is to stop punishing asylum seekers who are living here in Australia by removing the benefits that they have at the moment to help them with support. It’s been removed from 1,500 people already. There are another 6,500 people who are going to have their support payments removed from them. And we don’t know how those people are going to survive. So this is a mess. Our refugee and asylum seeker policy must be reviewed and it must return to a humane and reasonable approach to the treatment of these human beings.

TONY JONES
Anne Summers.

ANNE SUMMERS
Well, I mean, what... (CLEARS THROAT) Excuse me. What strikes me about this… As you know, I have a been living out of Australia for quite a few months now, so I’ve been observing this from afar and talking to people who come through New York - where I am at the moment - from Australia, who are expressing their frustration and their anger and their sorrow and grief about what is happening. And it seems to me that, given what Philip has just said, the government is refusing to actually engage with people. Refusing to recognise the anger and the frustration that many, many Australians feel. I know it’s a very, very divisive issue and not everybody is convinced that we should be bringing everybody back from Manus Island and Nauru. But enough people feel that way that they should be treated seriously, and I think the expression of that view was evident in Wentworth, and you will be, if you’re elected, very entitled to represent that view, knowing it is a highly-contested area of politics. But the thing about this government is it’s refusing to engage in legitimate recognition of the fact that so many Australians feel so strongly about this issue, and they’re not willing to do anything about it. And so this is another example of apparent contempt that the government has for significant portions of the electorate.

TONY JONES
Philip, I’m going to give you a chance to respond, because I feel I may have cut you off too early before.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
The only point I want to make, in relation to Anthony’s comments, is that I hope his colleagues will support the measure to legislate to ensure that if people are sent to New Zealand, that they cannot avail themselves of the New Zealand concession, where somebody who is a New Zealander wanting to access Australia, can do so essentially without a visa, without any questions.

TONY JONES
Let’s get a quick answer on that. Good point.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
It is a special arrangement, and it ought to be moved.

TONY JONES
Anthony Albanese, would the Labor Party support a situation where, if those people went to New Zealand, they could never come to Australia in their lives?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Let’s be clear of what’s happened here. The government introduced that legislation. It sat in the Senate for two years. There hasn’t been a minute of debate on it. When it comes to the US, the US is an attractive nation to go to for many people. And they were able to negotiate out provisions with the United States. I see no reason why they couldn’t negotiate out sensible solutions with New Zealand. And we’ve been calling for that for a long period of time.

TONY JONES
Very briefly, would you agree? Would the Labor Party agree...?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well, I’m not going to give Philip Ruddock, or you for that matter, a blank cheque on our migration policy.

TONY JONES
It’s not a blank cheque, it’s just a question as to whether you’d agree to that one thing?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well, what’s the one thing?

TONY JONES
That you would stop those people ever coming to Australia if they went to New Zealand.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
What if they want to come on a tourist visa? What if they want to... These things aren’t that simple...

PHILIP RUDDOCK
There are no tourist visas required. If you’re a New Zealander, you just come.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
These things aren’t that simple, but we would…we are prepared to consider any reasonable arrangement. Our priority is getting these kids looked after.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Well, I hope we can deal with it in the next week.

TONY JONES
Is that a reasonable arrangement?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well, there are a whole range of provisions. It’s not that simple, Tony, and you know it’s not that simple, and Philip certainly knows.

TONY JONES
Are you prepared to sit down with the government and negotiate this issue?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
We have said that, most importantly, the government has to sit down with the New Zealand government.

PETER VAN ONSELEN
Tony, why can’t they come here? They could hang out with the Tampa refugees that are now here that you let come in. I don’t understand.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Or the 400 people who were on Manus and Nauru who are here now. That’s the truth of the matter.

TONY JONES
Alright, let’s move to another big issue. The next question comes from Rebecca Emder.


CLIMATE00:38:28


REBECCA EMDER
While the swing against the Liberals in Wentworth undoubtedly reflected widespread anger about the treatment of Malcolm Turnbull, it was also clearly an indictment of the Liberal Party’s failures to take real action on climate change. However, on Sunday, Treasurer Frydenberg ruled out any change to the Coalition’s climate policy. How can the Liberal Party justify this position given this clear signal from the public that your inaction is no longer acceptable to the Australian people?

TONY JONES
Peter, I’ll start with you for some analysis, because The Australia Institute conducted an exit poll which indicated climate change was a huge factor in the Wentworth by-election.

PETER VAN ONSELEN
Yeah, I don’t doubt it was an issue in the Wentworth by-election, and the Lowy Institute has done its own poll around the nation, showing climate change is one of the issues that concerns most Australians. The concern that Liberals have, rightly or wrongly, is that they believe that you buttress climate change issues with power prices. And they think that matters in their key marginals, particularly outer metropolitan and regional marginal seats which take in emission-producing industries which employ people. So they conflate all of that. Where I disagree with them about that in a sort of political analysis sense is that climate change denial is not something that most Australians hold the view to. Certainly, most scientists don’t. It’s a small group of Liberal MPs and even smaller group of Nationals and then a very small group of right-wing commentators that run those lines. Now, I don’t think that the science supports it from what I can see, and I don’t think the wider public does. And if you burrow a bit deeper, it gets past the sort of argument that gets used why they have to go in that direction.

This is a classic example of what I’m talking about, about that right wing of the party not being conservative. A conservative would want to take prudent conservative action at the same time as doing other things. Now, those that don’t support climate change just want no action or next to no action. And I just think that is an ideological agenda that’s not representative of the wider populace. I don’t think it’s even representative of the wider Liberal base or the Liberal voting base for that matter as well. So I think they’re wrong about this. And I don’t really see why they can’t change it, other than the fact there’s a few Liberals that are prepared to throw their weight around and hold that view.

TONY JONES
Kerryn Phelps, first of all, how big an issue was it, do you believe? Because that polling indicates one of the key issues. And secondly, what do you intend to do about it?

KERRYN PHELPS
There was absolutely no question that climate change action was a major issue at the Wentworth by-election. It was something almost everybody was talking about. You couldn’t miss the presence of climate change activists in the area. And they were engaging with people in a very real and fundamental way. And it became one of the biggest issues. And we certainly now know that it was. What we need to do is accept the science on climate change. Climate change is real and I’m science-trained and I’ve been satisfied by the evidence for a very long time. Again, harking back to when I was AMA President, I asked the AMA to develop a policy on climate change and human health. Because we do know human health is one of the great things that will suffer when we fail to act on climate change. And Australia has the potential to be a leader in this area. And, again, as an independent crossbencher, you can help to direct the debate by gathering expert evidence, by talking about the case, by making sure that you make the case in a rational way, by putting forward an action plan, as I did during the campaign. And talking about solutions...

TONY JONES
Good luck with Bob Katter, by the way, since you’ll need his support on the crossbench. Can you imagine getting him into a room and convincing him the science is real?

KERRYN PHELPS
The first thing you have to do politically... And again, I hark back to the fact we have a general federal election coming up in May of 2019. That’s not very far away. If the Liberal Party continues along this path of no action plan for climate change, then they will be judged again at the federal election.

TONY JONES
Do you think they’ll last that long? It’s a key question for a crossbencher and a new one. Do you think there will be an early election?

KERRYN PHELPS
It’s hard to say. I have said all along that I think governments should serve their full terms. I think three years is short enough and I believe governments should have the opportunity to serve that full term. It would not be my intention to trigger anything like a general election sooner than that. But I would like to trigger some action by the government to put together an actual action plan. Because, just for one thing, the investment community needs to have security around government policy on renewable energy. To be able to invest money into technology development so that we can have renewable energies that not only provide the power that we need, but can replace old fossil-fuel technologies as time goes by.

TONY JONES
I have to ask Anthony Albanese, is this part of the reason that Labor sort of backed Kerryn Phelps into this position?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well, we had our own candidate.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
You’d hardly know.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
A very good candidate.

TONY JONES
Wasn’t his job just to give preferences to Kerryn Phelps?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
No, his job... You do him a disservice, Tony. Tim Murray was a very, very good candidate. I think he will make a good future candidate as well.

TONY JONES
I’m just talking in pure political terms.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
In pure political terms the chances of Labor winning Wentworth were pretty... You’d have to be a great optimist.

TONY JONES
So you didn’t run dead?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
No, it’s just that there aren’t 50% plus 1 of people in the electorate of Wentworth that want to elect a Labor member of parliament.

TONY JONES
OK, let’s go back to the question, about…

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Climate change!

TONY JONES
…climate change. Here’s the thing. The Australia Institute’s exit polling had 1,049 respondents. 78% said climate change had some influence on their vote. 49% said it had a lot of influence. 33% said it was the main issue.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Yeah, I don’t doubt that, because climate change is such a critical issue. Particularly, one of the things about an electorate like Wentworth is that a lot of people aren’t voting out of hip-pocket issues. They don’t need the state to provide them with income. They’re prepared to vote on values, and their values are that they care about their kids and their future kids. They care about the Great Barrier Reef. They care about the natural environment. And climate change is an enormous challenge, and it’s something that they also know... And here we come to the base. The base of the Liberal Party - they keep telling us - is the business community. The business communities are crying out for certainty. When you talk about how broad it is, they had... We tried, went through all the schemes, the emissions intensity scheme, the Clean Energy Target, then the NEG. We were prepared to cooperate on anything just to get the certainty through. And you mentioned Bob Katter. You’d be surprised. Someone like Bob Katter understands that the largest renewables being built anywhere in Australia are in his electorate. Big Kennedy, Small Kennedy, two big wind projects. Kidston, a solar project. With connecting into the grid, they understand that jobs in the future are about renewables. It’s only this rump holding back...

TONY JONES
Quick question.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
...the whole of the parliament.

TONY JONES
No-confidence motion on climate change action?

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well, we’ll deal with things on its merits. But it was Scott Morrison who said last week that this would create more uncertainty if Kerryn Phelps, if an independent, held and they were reduced to being a minority government. That was what he said. And he said it would be uncertain, not just politically, but uncertain for the economy. So, on his reckoning, of what he said last week, if he took that to its logical conclusion, he’d go visit Yarralumla sometime this week.

TONY JONES
Philip Ruddock…

ANNE SUMMERS
I think the other thing... Can I just make a point?

TONY JONES
Yes, of course.

ANNE SUMMERS
I think that the government and these commentators are doing people a great disservice to make this argument that only rich people care about climate change. I think it’s really insulting to say that because somebody lives in the western suburbs and they might have trouble paying their electricity bills, that they are not worried about the future of the planet. That’s a completely nonsensical way of putting it. And the way, as Peter has pointed out, in which the government has conflated the issue of climate change and electric power bills is not only inaccurate and is a result of failed policy in the past on their part, but it’s a dodo-like approach of refusing to deal with what is one of the greatest challenges of our time.

It’s now 12 years since I stopped being the president of International Greenpeace. And I was in that job for six years. During that time there were a number of IPCC reports warning us about specific measures and measures of what was likely to happen. Each of those reports was pretty dire. That was 12 years ago. Since then the reporting from the IPCC has become even more dire. The situation is much worse. There’s been so much tangible evidence of damage being done before our very eyes by changes to climate, and yet we have a government that is refusing to either acknowledge that or do anything about it. And it’s absolutely derelict.

TONY JONES
I’ve got to go to...

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Well, I think I better try and turn this into a debate if I can. Let me just say that I’m not a climate sceptic, but I do believe if Australia is to play its part it ought to be playing with the world that is acting on it. And I have a very, very significant issue...

TONY JONES
You mean, you should definitely stay with the Paris Agreement?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Absolutely. You’ve got to be part of what the world community... It’s not going to be resolved by Australia with about 1% of emissions dealing with it, if you’ve not got China, if you’ve not got Europe, you’ve not got India, you’ve not got the United States, you’ve not got South America all involved. And if we get involved doing the only things that are going to try and influence it, our economy will be significantly disadvantaged.

ANNE SUMMERS
I wasn’t saying that. I wasn’t saying that.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Significantly disadvantaged. So my view has always been, we have to play our part but we have to recognise that we have to bring the world with us. And if we can’t bring them with us we can’t be in front and we shouldn’t be behind.

TONY JONES
OK.

ANNE SUMMERS
We’re way behind.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
I don’t believe we are.

TONY JONES
Was there a message that your government got from the Wentworth by-election, or were they just too posh to really reflect what Australia thinks?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Look, I don’t think people make reflections upon electors in that way, Tony. I mean, the fact is that these issues are live issues and need to be talked about. Talked about realistically, so that we put in place sensible solutions to dealing with the matters that are before us.

TONY JONES
Like the NEG?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
I believe that you have to be very conscious of the fact that, there have been very, very significant impacts on people’s household electricity bills and that is around Australia. And people are very conscious...

TONY JONES
I was just saying the NEG was your solution and then it wasn’t your solution.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Well, the NEG was an issue that was being pursued in a particular way. And no doubt the emphasis is still on maintaining realistic power prices.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
But with respect, Philip, the NEG went through your party room not once but twice. And now you have no energy policy. None.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
We also had to get all of the states and the Labor Party up, and I don’t think that had been secured either.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well, the fact is the Labor states certainly do want action on climate change, and are taking action.

TONY JONES
OK, we’re going to... We have time for only a couple more questions. We’ve got so many. The next question is from Maya Avramovic.


BY-ELECTIONDIRTY TRICKS00:50:53


MAYA AVRAMOVIC
Thanks, Tony. How low can we really go in Australian politics when we have the latest known dirty trick is to publish a fake email falsely claiming that high-profile doctor Kerryn Phelps has HIV, and what does this say about politics in general?

TONY JONES
We’ll start with Peter van Onselen.

PETER VAN ONSELEN
Look, it doesn’t say much for the author of it, whoever it was, But this... Look, this goes on in campaigns, believe it or not. It wasn’t, from what we can tell, affiliated with any mainstream party or individuals. It was shocking for Kerryn to have to go through that. This happens unusually in a seat like Wentworth, but unfortunately more commonly in key marginal battlegrounds where you have these sort of rogue elements. But that doesn’t in any way, shape or form justify... It’s outside the mainstream of politics, and anyone doing that within the mainstream would be immediately acted against by all political parties.

TONY JONES
Peter, you’ve seen The Australian’s reporting on this today, and Mr Sharma is pointing his finger at the ABC’s reporting and saying they only released part of the email. So part of the email about the HIV claim...

PETER VAN ONSELEN
Yes.

TONY JONES
...but not the section of the email which dealt with Sharma himself and which appeared to be a racist attack on him. That’s his view.

PETER VAN ONSELEN
Look, I’ve read the email and I’ve read the ABC’s response. I can understand why Mr Sharma is upset, because at one level there were attacks on him as well. And in an ideal world, I think the ABC probably in the digital age we’re in should have just put the email online. But the lead in the story was definitely about Kerryn Phelps, because there was a slur at Dave Sharma on the way through, but the essence of the email was unquestionably to slur Kerryn Phelps and to urge people to vote for Dave Sharma. So I think the ABC’s story was the right story. I just think, you know, if you’re going to be critical in hindsight, perhaps they should have just whacked the email up on the website to avoid any form of criticism.

TONY JONES
Kerryn?

KERRYN PHELPS
I have reported this email to the Australian Electoral Commission and to the Australian Federal Police, and we’re looking at what other authorities we might need to report it to. And I did it because I don’t want this to be a feature of any future campaigns. And I think if there is a signal that is sent out that this is something that, if you try it on, you’ll be caught out and you’ll be punished, that’s what I’d like to achieve out of this. But the other thing I wanted to achieve out of this was to take this and say it is a long road that we still have to go to destigmatise HIV. Because for someone to think it’s a slur, for someone to think it’s an insult to say that somebody has been diagnosed with this infection, HIV, tells me that even though we’ve come so far, we still have a long way to go. Because people living with HIV are living happy, productive and healthy lives now, because of the advances that we’ve made in medical treatment and in social support. And Australia has been an incredible leader in this area, so… I’m actually a patron of ACON’s Pride in Health and Wellbeing program, and I would like to see some funding for a whole new education program around the stigma of HIV to come out of this.

TONY JONES
Now, Kerryn Phelps, you gave the email to the ABC. So you would have seen the full email which Dave Sharma says contained vile and despicable slurs against him. Do you agree with that, his assessment of it? Because… I’ll just give you one example. It said, the full email, “Dave Sharma belongs to Brahmin. Only electing Dave Sharma into office can we make sure Australia will continue to open its doors to Indian migrants who are better than the convicts’ offspring.” Now, he’s taken that as a sort of racist slur. What do you think?

KERRYN PHELPS
Look, I just think that the whole email was offensive in many ways. It was telling people not to vote for me and to vote for somebody else. And so it wasn’t exactly designed to help my campaign.

TONY JONES
Was it more likely to be the product of a diseased mind, not a dirty trick from some political party or political players?

KERRYN PHELPS
I said during the campaign that I did not believe that this was the work of any of the political parties, and that it was most likely the work of an individual. Although it is hard to tell, because it seemed to be a very systematic distribution of this email. And that’s why I’ve reported it, so that the appropriate authorities can deal with it. And so that I’m not hypothesising about where it’s come from or who sent it.

TONY JONES
Quick one from Philip Ruddock on this.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
Well, it’s a unity ticket. It is totally unacceptable. I regard it as unacceptable. I have experienced it at various times. My wife reminded me the Epping Pub was one place where they used to say something about my marriage every year that we had an election. It was one of the things that does happen in election campaigns, but it is totally unacceptable. I hope the police are able to identify who was responsible, because I worry enormously about what goes out on this electronic media these days and the way in which it can be used.

TONY JONES
OK, we’ve got time for one last question, I’m told. It’s from Luisa Low.


WOMEN AND CHANGE00:56:13


LUISA LOW
My question is for Anne Summers. You’ve witnessed an enormous amount of change for women during your lifetime, which you talk about in your recent book. Recently we’ve had some wins such as Queensland decriminalising abortion and Kerryn Phelps’ nearly being elected to Wentworth - hopefully soon. But so far this year 55 women have been killed by domestic violence. What do we still need to do and what’s next?

TONY JONES
Anne.

ANNE SUMMERS
Well, specifically on domestic violence, which I agree is one of the most significant issues facing our country, not just for women, but for all of us, one of the things I report in my book is, when I worked for Paul Keating back in 1992, before that ‘93 election, we did some research asking women around Australia what they thought the most important issues were for women. And the three issues that women themselves chose, and the results were remarkably uniform all around the country, regional and city areas, were firstly child care, secondly women’s health and thirdly violence against women. And I remember being very shocked to realise that violence was so pervasive in the way that it had been reported. And we found out at that time that the research that the Liberal Party was doing was finding exactly the same results. So there was total bipartisan agreement that these were important issues that we had to deal with. But we didn’t have a clue what to do. Violence against women was not seen as being within the purview of the federal government. Most of the laws related to the states. So that was the beginning of the federal government trying to work out how it could respond.

And so, if you look 20-odd years later, what have we done? We’re throwing a lot of money at it, particularly in research, and there’s a huge amount of research going on, but I don’t think we’re coming up with any real answers. I don’t think we’re really analysing the causes of this violence, and we’re certainly not being effective in trying to stop it. And so I think we need to be taking a far more aggressive, problem-solving approach to it in addition to the research that’s already been done, and we certainly have to be more vigilant when it comes to law enforcement, and we have to have an absolutely zero-tolerance approach to violence of any kind - verbal, online harassment, stalking, all the way up the spectrum up to these terrible murders that have been taking place. And I do think the pervasiveness of violence, and I do think it’s increasing and I do think it’s related to a lot of men resenting women having economic independence and having freedom, is something that we as a nation just have to deal with.

TONY JONES
Would this be more...would it be easier to deal with if there were more women in politics, more women running the policy of the country, basically?

ANNE SUMMERS
Well, certainly, when there are more women in office, you see women’s issues dealt with. I mean, the result in Queensland, the decriminalisation of abortion in Queensland, was due to the work of the women leaders of that government, in particular the Labor government in Queensland, but also some of the women on the other side of politics. So there is ample evidence that when women are there in sufficient numbers in politics… And we saw this back with the RU-486 debate, which was nearly 20 years ago, I think. That was an effort by women from the four parties against the then Health Minister, Tony Abbott, who had banned the import of RU-486, which is a non-surgical abortion method, and that ban was overturned as a result of the work done by those women. So I think the more women we have in parliament, the better, for representational reasons, equity reasons…

TONY JONES
Let’s throw that to Philip. That almost brings us back to where we were at the beginning of the program, so let’s hear from Philip Ruddock.

PHILIP RUDDOCK
No, I have the view that we are seeing much more aberrant behaviour in our communities than ever. And a lot of it has to do with these drugs that are being used. And I spent some time on one of your other programs talking about these issues and why we ought to be very much focused in working with children to get a very zero-tolerant view in relation to those sorts of matters. We are finding in the Shire of Hornsby there is much more violent criminal activity generated largely because of use of drugs. It worries me enormously.

TONY JONES
OK, let’s just go back to the question about women in politics, though, which we were talking about at the beginning of the program. Would it change the country significantly if, at least in the Liberal Party, and in the major parties at least, there were 50-50 representation in terms of gender?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
No. I want to see more women engaged and seeking out public office in a competitive system.

ANNE SUMMERS
What about winning office?

PHILIP RUDDOCK
I would want them to win office too. We’ve got a marvellous woman premier in this state and I support her very strongly and the party supports her very strongly.

TONY JONES
Peter.

PETER VAN ONSELEN
Well, I said it before. I think the Liberal Party is so far behind on the gender issue that it does need to look at quotas now. This idea that merit is what gets this mob in government there, lock, stock, is ridiculous. You know, merit is in the eye of the beholder. And if half the population are women, the notion that in the Coalition they can have only 13 of now 75 seats held by women, if you’re telling me that’s merit-based, I don’t believe it. And if it’s not merit-based, you’ve got to do something about it.

ANNE SUMMERS
If it is merit-based, it’s very insulting to Liberal Party women.

PETER VAN ONSELEN
Absolutely.

ANTHONY ALBANESE
Well, and It’s clearly not merit-based when you have a look at some of the blokes who are there. I think it’s a pretty simple principle that we have a democracy, democracy should reflect the population. What that means is 50-50 gender. What that means is diversity in other ways as well, in terms of religion, to reflect...and race and different backgrounds, so that we reflect the community. That’s a parliament that functions better. And Anne is absolutely right. The Labor Party culture in the time in which I’ve been in parliament, over the two decades, which has seen an increased number of women in senior positions, it has changed the internal culture. Like, it’s front and centre. The gender impact of policies is discussed right across the board. Education, health, infrastructure. Right across the board.

TONY JONES
Kerryn Phelps, I’ll give you the final word.

KERRYN PHELPS
I believe that it’s going to take quotas in the Liberal Party to shift that 13 to closer to equal representation. And if that’s what it takes, then I believe that the Liberal Party has some soul searching to do, and they need to at least have a look at their preselection processes, because clearly their preselection processes are not preselecting women on the basis of merit. It is possible that the well-reported incidents of maltreatment of women within the Liberal Party, the bullying and the reports we’ve had about the way women have been treated, is impeding a number of women of merit from standing for preselection, and so the culture within that party is going to need to be addressed as well. But I do think that we will get better representation of the community if we have greater diversity in the parliament.

TONY JONES
In other circumstances, would you have considered running as a candidate for the Liberal Party?

KERRYN PHELPS
No, it’s important to me that I am an independent. I mean, I’ve considered over the years running for parliament, but I’ve rejected it. Number one, because there’s never been a time that it had felt right to run. But it also, at every juncture I was asked, “Well, you know, if this particular issue that you feel strongly came up, would you vote against it? Would you speak against it?” And marriage equality being an obvious example. And I had to say, you know, “Deal-breaker for me.” And so being an independent is the right fit, and it seems like the right time for me to be doing this.

TONY JONES
Well, thank you very much. That’s all we have time for tonight. Please thank our panel - Anthony Albanese, Kerryn Phelps, Anne Summers, Philip Ruddock and Peter van Onselen.

Thank you very much. Next Monday, Q&A goes Shakespeare. We broadcast live from the Pop-up Globe. On the panel, the leading lights of Australian theatre - internationally-celebrated stage and screen director Neil Armfield; playwright and rising star Nakkiah Lui; actor, writer and director Toby Schmitz; actor, musician and Play School presenter Zindzi Okenyo; and Miles Gregory, the founder and director of the Pop-up Globe, who conceived the idea of building a modern replica of Shakespeare’s Globe Theatre that could travel the world. 400 years after Shakespeare’s death, we’re still finding new ways to stage his plays while bingeing through the golden age of television. So, why are we so addicted to comedy and drama? Until next week, goodnight.