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Estimates of Proposed Expenditure for year 1986-87 - Explanatory Notes - Report together with Hansard record of proceedings - Committees A, B, C, D (together with 3 attachments), E and F on Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year ending 30 June 1986 and Particulars of certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1986


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The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A,B,C,D,E AND F

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Additional Estimates 1985-86

Presented and ordered to be printed 2 May 1986

Parliamentary Paper No. 178/1986

Parliamentary Paper No. 178/1986

The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, E AND F

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Additional Estimates 1985-86

The Commonwealth Government Printer Canberra 1986··

C Commo nweal t h of Australia 1986

ISBN 0 644 05224 4

Printed by Autho rity by the Commonwealth Gov ernment Printer

CONTENTS

1. Resolution of the Senate

2. Membership of Committees

3. Estimates Committee A Report

4.

5.

6.

Minutes of Proceedings 1986 15 April 1986 (2 meetings) 17 April 1986 30 April 1986

Estimates Committee B Report Minutes of Proceedings 1986 15 April 1986

30 April 1986

Estimates Committee C Report Minutes of Proceedings 1986 15 April 1986

17 April 1986 l May 1986

Estimates Committee D Report Documents tabled during Public Hearings, or provided as additional information

to the Committee Minutes of Proceedings 1986 10 April 1986 (2 meetings) 28 April 1986

30 April 1986

(iii)

PAGE

(v)

(vi)

3

ll

22

27

31

37

45

49

55 63

67

71

83

87 92

97

CONTE NTS

7 . Estimates Committee E

Report

8 .

Index of Issues Minutes of Proceedings 1986 8 April 1986

10 April 1986 (3 meetings) 17 April 1986 (2 meetings) 29 April 1986

Estimates Committee F Report Minutes of Pro?eedings 1986 10 April 1986

28 April 1986

(iv)

PAGE

101 121

135 137 148 155

159

163 171

RESOLUTION OF THE SENATE PASSED ON 19 MARCH 1986

ESTIMATES COMMITTEES REFERENCE OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOS ED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86: The Leader of the

Government (Senator Button), by leave, moved-(1) That the Particulars of Proposed Additional

Expenditure for the Service of the year ending o n

30 June 1986 in relation to the Parliamentary

Departments, the Particulars of Proposed Addi tiona! Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30

Jun'e 19 86 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed

Addi tiona! Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1986 be referred forthwith to Estimates

Committees for examination and report.

( 2) That the Committees consider Proposed Addi tiona!

Expenditure in the Estimates Committee groupings agreed to by Resolution of the Senate of 22 February

1985. *

(3) That the Committees report to the Senate on or before

Friday, 2 May 1986.

* Estimates . Committee Groups

Est_ imates Committee A Parliament Industry, Technology and Commerce Prime Minister and Cabinet Trade Science

Estimates Committee B Community Services Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

Social Security Health

Estimates Committee C Finance Employment and Industrial Relations

Treasury Primary Industry Communications

(v)

Estimates Committee D Education Housing and Construction Sport, Recreation and

Tourism Arts, Heritage and Environment Aboriginal Affairs

Estimates Committee E Resources and Energy Attorney-General Special Minister of State

Foreign Affairs Defence

Estimates Committee F Veterans' Affairs Transport Aviation

Territories Local Government and Administrative Services

MEMBERSHIP OF COMMITTEES

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

Senato r Ri chardson 1. (Chairman) Senator Coates 2. Senator Cook Senator Co oney 3. Senato r Hi ll

Senator Jessop Senator Ray 4. Senator Short

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

Senato r Giles (Chairman) Senator Peter Baume Senator Crowley Senator Elst ob Senator Me ssner s. Senator Sh i e l Senator Wa lters 6.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C Senator Ch ilds (Chairman) Senator Boswe ll Senator Bro wnhill Senator Devlin Senator Maguire Senator Parer

1 . Discharged 20 March 1986 and Re - appo i nted 9 April 1986 2. Appointe d 20 March 1986 and Discharged 9 April 1986 3. Discharged 12 March 1986 4. Appointed 12 march 1986 5. Appointed 14 April 1986 and

Disc h arged 6 May 1986

(vi)

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Senator Reynolds 7 · ' (Chairman) Senator Michael Baume Senator Colston 9 • Senator Coates 9 • Senator Cooney 7 • Senator Morris Senator Newman Senator Publick Senator Watson 10.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

8.

Senator Mcintosh 7. (Chairman) Senator Aulich Senator Black Senator Sir John Carrick Senator Mac Gibbon Senator Teague Senator Zakharov 9.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

Senator Zakharov 7. (Chairman) Senator Foreman Senator Georges 9. Senator McKiernan Senator Reid Senator Townley Senator Vanstone

6. Discharged 14 April 1986 and Re-appointed 6 May 1986 7. Appointed 20 march 1986

8. Appointed 9 April 1986 9. Discharged 20 March 1986 10. Discharged 9 April 1986

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee A has the honour to report to the Senate.

1. On 19 March 1986, the Senate referred to the Committee

the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for 1985-86 relating to the Parliamentary Departments, the Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce, the Department of Science, the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, and the Department of Trade.

2. The Committee has considered the estimates of these

departments, together with the departmental explanatory notes, and has received evidence in relation to them from the President of the Senate (Senator the Hon. Douglas McClelland), the Minist er for Industry, Technology and Commerce (Senator the Hon. John

Button), and officers of the departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with the Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill (No. 2) 1985-86, the Appropriation Bill (No. 3)

1985-86 and the Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1985-86. Written answers provided subsequent to the Committee's hearings will be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committee's proceedings.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

following matters arising from its consideration of the estimates.

3.

Parliament's appropriations

In its .report to the Senate of October 1985 the . Committee argued at some length that the Parliament should be independent of the . Executive in the determination of its estima t es, and strongly supported the independent role of the Senate Standing Committee on Appropriations -and Staffing in the determination of the Senate's estimates.

The Committee was gratified when, on 2 December, on the Committee's recommendation, the Senate unanimously adopted a

resolution which, inter alia, re-affirmed the role of the App ropr i ations and Staffing Committee. It was further gratified

to note, from evidence given by the President on 15 April, that the problems encountered in the determination of the 1985-86 estimates had not recurred in relation to the additional estimates . The President told the Committee:

'I believe that the Senate's resolution, together with the report of Estimates Committee A, has clarified the situation and that future consideration of the estimates should proceed more smoothly . This has been acknowledged to me by the Minister for Finance in a letter dated 13 March 1986.'

Senate i nformation systems

The Committee, in its October report, also urged the Government to transfer responsibility for the introduction of information systems equipment in Senators' electorate offices from the Department of the Special Minister of State to the Department of the Senate. The Committee suggested that this was the best means of ensuring the complete compatibility of that equipment with equipment already installed, or being installed,

in Senato r s' Parliament House offices by the Department of the Senate. It considered that such a transfer could also be expected t o produce cost savings.

4 0

The Committee was therefore somewhat disappointed to be informed by the President at its April hearings that the Government had decided against such ·a transfe·r of ·responsibility, and that· t ·he Department of the Spec·ial Minister of State was to

supply information systems equipment to electorate offices over the two financial years.

Given the Government's decision, the Committee considers it important that the Department of the Special

Minister of State liaise closely with the of the

Senate to ensure that full compatibility is achieved and that thereby Senators are able to ga·in the maximum possible benefit from the equipment to be installed in electorate offices. On th·e question of compatibility the Committee considers the ability to transfer completed or part-completed documents directly between

the systems . in electorate offices and those in Parliament House offices, and the ability to work on ·a document from either office, to be minimum

Patent, Trade Marks and Designs

The Committee was disturbed to learn that the Patent, Trade Marks and Designs Office currently has a backlog of about 34,000 patent applications, about the same number of trade mark applications, and about 4,000 designs applications, and that the delay· in having an application processed is about 30 months. Evidence to the Committee also indicated that on an international

scale of lowest to highest applicatioh costs, Australia was 'about two-thirds of the way up the scale'.

The Committee was told that while the· rate of applications had increased· in recent years a major cause of the backlog was a shortage of examiners.

The Committee believes that action should be taken to employ additional staff to ensure ·that the backlog kept within reasonable ·limits, particularly as the- Office on a full

cost-recovery basis. Long delays in determining applications can

5.

only serve to hinder Australian industry and detract from its competitiveness both within Australia and overseas. The committee considers that the Patent, Trade Marks and Desisns

Office has an obligation to process applications promptly and efficiently, and urges that every step be taken to ensure that this obligation is met.

Youth Affairs Program - Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet

The Committee .not-ed that the Government was seeking an amount of $2· million for 1985.-86 costs associated .with its

' Priority One' program. No · funds had been requested for this

program in the main estimates for 1985-86.

Given. that there had been no previous request for funds for the 'Priority One' program, and given that more than half the $2 million had already been expended through use of the Advance

to the Minister for Finance, the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet could reasonably have expected questions on this item.

An officer provided by the Department to answer

questions on Youth Affairs matters but, because he was relatively new to the Office of Youth Affairs (having come from another

department), he was not able to provide the detail required by the Committee . Many of his answers were provisional and a number of questions had to be taken on notice.

This state of affairs is not satisfactory to the Committee. It is not suggested that at additional estimates a department should have officers available to answer for every detail of that department's activities. But where a significant

item of new expenditure is to be examined and where the relevant program has been the subject of some considerable parliamentary and public debate, then an officer able to provide answers should have been present. The Committee trusts that the Department of

6.

the Prime Minister and Cabinet will ensure that it has appropriate officers available to assist the Committee in similar circumstances in future.

GENERAL

4. The ,Committee expresses its appreciation of the

assistance given by the President, the Minister for Industry, Technology and Commerce, and the officers of the various departments and authorities who appeared before the Committee.

. 7.

(Graham Richardson) Chairman

I l

I

'•,

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

1. MEETING

. THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 10

TUESDAY, 15 APRIL 1986

The Committee met in private session at 4.00 p.m.

2. MEMBERSHIP

The Secretary reported membership changes since 'the last meeting of the Committee, as follows:

12 March 1986: Senator Cooney discharged, Senator Ray appointed. 20 March 1986: Senator Richardson discharged, Senator

Coates appointed. 9 April 1986: Senator Coates discharged, Senator

Richardson appointed.

3. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN

The Secretary called for nominations for Chairman. Senator Richardson was nominated by Senator Ray. There being no further nominations Senator Richardson was declared elected and thereupon took the Chair.

11.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86

The Chairman reported the resolution of the Senate of 19 March 1986 the Particulars of Prop6sed

Expenditure 1985-86 to the Committee for the following departments:

Parliamentary departments Industry, Technology and Commerce Science Prime Minister and cabinet Trade

5 . PUBLICATION OF EVIDENCE (pursuant to S.0.)08)

The Committee authorises the publication of all

documents presented to it in the course of its hearings, and authorises the publication of writtert replies and -other documents which may be forwarded to i t after hearings have been completed.

6. ADJOU RNMENT

The Committee adjourned· a t 4.06 p.m.

7 . ATTEN DANCE

Senators Cook, Hill,- Je'ssop, Ray, 'Richardson and Short.

12.

CONFIRMED:

..

(Graham Richardson) Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 11

TUESDAY, 15 APRIL 1986

1. MEETING

The Committee met at 4.06 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Richardson) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN

The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Commit tee in its examina,tion of the Additional

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -PARLIAMENTARY DEPARTMENTS

In attendance: Senator the Hon. Douglas McClelland, President of the Senate, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of the Senate Mr H.C. Nicholls, Acting Clerk of the Senate

Mr H. Evans, Clerk-Assistant (Procedure)

Miss A. Lynch, (Committees)

Mr P.N. Murdoch, Clerk-Assistant {Table)

Mr J. Vander Wyk, Acting Clerk-Assistant

(Management) Mr ··R. A-lison, Osher C?f the Black Rod

Mr M. Mullane, Acting Principal Parliamentary

Officer {Information Systems)

13.

Mr J. Dyer, Principal Parliamentary Officer

(Parliamentary Relations) Mr G. Nankervis, Senior Parliamentary ·Officer

(Administration)

Department of the Parliamentary Library Mr H. de S.C. MacLean, Parliamentary Librarian

Mr M.J. Brudenall, Deputy Parliamentary

Mrs D.M. Head, Legislative Research .

Service Mr H. Knight, Finance Officer

Mr R.G. Kemp, Estimates Officer

J o i nt House Department

Mr Foley, Acting Secretary

Mr F. Bradley, Director, House Management

Mr N. Kelly, Director, Management ·Servic_es

Mr P.G. Richardson, Acting. Managerj

Commonwealth Parliament Refreshment Rooms Mr E.W. Howell, Security Controller

Mr C.R. Crapp, Principal Technical Officer

Department of the Parliamentary .Reporting Staff Mr J .M. Campbell, Principal Parl·iamentary Reporter

The President made an introductory statementc prior to t h e consideration of the Additional Estimates of the, Department of the Senate.

The Chairman called on the following divisions for e xami nation:

Division 101 - Department of the Senate Division 106 - Department of the Parliamentary Library Division 107 - Joint House Department

14.

The. Committee concluded its examination of the proposed additional expenditure for the parliamentary departments, subject to undertakings by the President to additional information.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET -GOVERNOR-GENERAL'S OFFI.C.E -

In attendance: Senator the Han. John Button, Minister for Industry, Technology and Commerce, by the

following officers:

Mr D.I. Smith,. Official Secretary

Mr K.L. Brown, .:Deputy Official Secretary

A.G. , Warner, Comptroller to the

Governor-General Mr c. Bell, Executive Officer

Ms L. Huey, Administrativean:d -Finance Officer

Also in attendance: Mr H. Campbell, Senior Finance Officer, Grade 2, Financial Management Ac9qunting Policy Division, Department of Finance.

The Chairman· called on the: fol1owing divisions for examination:

Divisions 506 and 937

The Committee concluded its examination of the proposed additional expenditure for the Governor-General's Office.

15.

5 . PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL 1985-86 -

DE PARTMENT OF INDUSTRY, TECHNOLOGY AND COMMERCE

In attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the foll ow i ng officers:

Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce Dr M. Haddad, First Assistant Secretary, Corporate Strategy and Services Division Mr B. Meredyth, Assistant Secretary, Corporate

Services Mr J. Grant, Director, Resources Management

Mr J. Belshaw, Assistant Secretary, Electronics

Aerospace and Information Industries Mr G. Hallinan, Assistant Secretary, Engineering

Industries Mr J. Vincent, Director, Australian Industrial

Research and Development Incentives Board Mr W. Scale$, Associate Member, Automotive

Industry Authority Mr M. Wynne-Hughes, Executive Director, Automotive

Industry Authority

Australian Customs Service

Mr A. Luckman, Assistant

Comptroller-General, Management Division Mr D. Griffiths, Assistant Comptroller-General,

Resources Management Branch, Management Division Mr D. D'C0nnor, First Assistant

Comptroller-General, Barrier Division Mr B. Cody, Senior Assistant Comptroller-General,

Inland Services Branch, Inland Revenue and - Dumping Division

Mr H. McMahon, Assistant Comptroller-General,

Resources Excise and Bounties Branch, Inland Revenue and Dumping Division Mr J. Conlon, Assistant Comptroller-General,

16.

Import Control Branch, Commercial Division Mr T. Slater, First Assistant Comptroller-General,

Systems Division Mr R. Miller, Senior Assistant

Comptroller-General, Legal Administration Branch

Also in attendance: Mr Campbell, Senior Finance Officer, Grade . 2, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division, Department of Finance.

The Chairman called on the following divisions for examination:

Divisions 380, 381, 382, 384, 386, 912, 913 and 914

-Senator Button .made a statement in relation to the

Australian Customs Service.

The Committee concluded its examination of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce, subject to undertakings to provide additional information • .

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -­ DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET -AUSTRALIAN BICENTENNIAL AUTHORITY

In attendance: Senator the Han. John Button, Minister for Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the following officers:

17.

Mr R. B. Maher, · General Manager, Pr.ogram .

Mr Fa{rbahks, General

and Management Services.

Also in attendance: · · Mr H. Campbell, · Senior Finance Officer, Grade 2, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division, Department of Finance.

The Chairman invl. ted ·questions on matters relatin:cj to

t he Authority.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Authority,-· subjeet to undertakings to ·prbvide additional i nformation.

7 . PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE -.. • >

DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET - -AUSTRALIAN

AUDIT OFFICE

• r

In attendancer· Senator 'the Hon. ·· Johrt Button, Minister for Industry, Technology ah·d ·commerce, accompanied by the following officers:

Australian· Audit ·off{ce · Mr B.T. Kimball, Acting Assistant Auditor­

Gener'al-, ·corp·orate ·Managem-ent Division Mr c -.'M. Assistaht Auditor-General,

Mahageltitint .. Branch,

tLi vi's ion· .

Mr· T·. n'. :· Jambr:rch ,- 'Assi'stant. Auditor-General, ,,

Audit Division A Mr F.P. Campbell, Executive Officer, Resource

Management and .. ·a.rartch, · Corporate

·Managemeht· · oi vlsibh . . ' ·â€¢â€¢ • . ,. !

·-·---'·

. \

18.

Also in attendance: Mr Campbell, Senior .Finance Officer, ,Finan_cial Management and Accounting J?olicy

Division, Department 9t Finance.

ChairJnan called on Division 515. for examination.

The Committee concluqed its examinat.ion of the proposed additional expenditure for the Auditor-General's off , _ .. subject, _to unde.rtakings to provide additional ... : . ... ... · ; information.

8. PARTICQLARS PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE -DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE

In attendance: Senator the Han. John Button, Minister for Industry, .Commerce., . by, the

follow:i,.ng ,\ .

·. ., ...

. ....... . '

Department of Science : .. _, D_ r A;._R First Assistp,nt . Secretary,

Scientific Services Branch . . .... ·, .. ' .. . Mr G.W. Bullivant, Acting As§istant.

Resource Management Ms L. Crossley, Depu,t.y; Direc"t7or., Commiqsion for .,_ ·' ...

the Fut:ur:e Mr (R •. Director1 Activities i ·_.- .. .' · • .. -· ·â€¢â€¢ ·. :'' .... : Dr A •. R. .Jensen, Acti,ng F_ il;'st Assistant Secretary, . . . . •. . :. .. .: ; ' . . ' . ___ Scientific .Development Divis:i,on

.. ' . .. : ; . . : ;- - :_ •· ; . . : . : .

Mr R •. Mulligan, CAs,si.stant Operations ' ' "' . : . . • . , . · ' . - ,. ,. i ' • Mr L • . ]\s.sistant .. Resource

Management

rr, Bureau .. of ;>· . 1 f •.

Dr J. Zillman, of Meteorology ; t : 1 . \ . ' Mr B. Bach, Executive Officer, Finance

19.

Ionospheric Prediction Service Dr A.R. Jensen, Acting First Assistant SecretQry

Scientific Services Division

Patent, Trade Marks and Designs Office Mr P. Smith, Commissioner, Patent, Trade Marks

and Designs Office Mr K. Stokes, Director, Resource Management

National Standards Commission Mr H. Wray, Finance Officer, National - Standards

Commission

Australian Institute of Marine Science Dr J.T. Baker, Director, Australian Institute of Marine Science

Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation Mr I. Farrar, Manager, Budget, CSIRO

Mr J. · Payne, Chief Finance Officer, Budget ; CSIRO

Also in attendance: Mr H. Campbell, Senior Finance Officer, Grade 2, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division, Department of Finance.

The Chairman called on the following divisions for examination:

Division 543 - Antarctic Division Divisions 544 and 945 - Commonwealth Bureau of Meteorology Division 552 - Australian Institute of Marine Science Division 540 - Commission for the Future

20.

The Committee concluded its consideration .of the above divisions, subject to undertakings to provide additional information. Further consideration of the proposed additional expenditure of the Department of Science was postponed to the next meeting of the Committee.

9. ADJOURNMENT

The Committee adjourned at 12.23 a.m. on Wednesday, 16 April 1986.

10. ATTENDANCE

Senators Richardson (Chairman), Cook, Hill, Jessop, Ray and Short. Senators Archer, Boswell, Chaney and Vigor were also present.

CONFIRMED:

21.

(Graham Richardson) Chairman

THE . SENATE

EST.IMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 12

THURSDAY, 17 APRIL 1986

l . MEET ING

The Committee met at 8.00 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Richardson) took the Chair.

2 . PARTI CULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DEPAR TMENT OF

In attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for Indus try, Technology .an

Department of Science Dr A.R. Jensen, Acting · First Assistant Secretary, Scientific Services Branch Mr Q. W. Sullivant, .Acting Assistant Secretary,

Resource Management Dr M.M. Gore, Interim Director, Australian Science. and Technology Centre Mr A.C. Assistant Director, Australian

Technology Centre

Mr R.J. Webb, Director, Bilateral Activities

Mr P.A. Smith, Patent, Trade Marks

and Designs Mr .. K·. Stok:es_ , Director, Resource Management,

Patent, Trade Marks and Designs Mr I.L. Farrar, Manager, Budget, CSIRO

Mr J.H. Payne, Chief Finance Officer, Budget, CSIRO

2 .2 .•

Also in attendance: Mr T.W. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management Accounting Policy Division, Department of Finance.

The Committee resumed its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Science. The Chairman called on the following divisions for examination:

Divisions 540, 542, 545, 548, 554 and 945.

The Committee concluded its examination of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Science, subject to undertakings to provide additional information.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET

In attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the following officers:

Department the Prime Minister and Cabinet Mr G.E. Nichcils, Acting Deputy Secretary

- Mr P.A. Selth, Manager, Corporate Services Group

Mr A.J. Mann, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Resources Management Mr M.J. Assistant Secretary, Ceremonial

and Branch

Ms s;M. Brooks, Fitst Assistant Secretary, Office

of the Status of Women Mr N. 'Edwa.rds, Acting Deputy Director, Office of

Youth Affairs ·Mr B.D. Bell, Actitig Director, Finance and

Services

23 •'

Office of National Assessments Mr T.K. O'Brien, Acting Deputy Director-General

Mr N. Denning, Chief Executive Officer,

(Management Services) .J

Commonwealth Ombudsman

Air Vice-Marshall J.C. Jordan, Acting Ombudsman Mr B. Hugg, Executive Officer

Australian Science and Technology Council Mr R.E. James, Assistant Secretary,

Public Service Board Mr P. Lush, Acting Assistant Commissioner,

Management Branch Ms B. Shannon, Acting Director, Resource ·

Management Mr D. Calaby, Finance Officer

Also in attendance: Mr T.W. Wall, Chief Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division, Department of Finance.

The Committee resumed its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of the Prime Minister a n d Cabinet. The Chairman called on the following divisions for examination:

Divi s i ons 500, 504, 511, 512, 513, 516, 519 and 939.

The Committee concluded its examination of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, to undertakings to provide

additio nal i nformation.

. 24 .

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DEPARTMENT OF TRADE

In attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Trade Mr R. Anderson, First Assistant Secretary,

Corporate Services Group Mr P. Webb, Assistant Secretary, Operations

Branch, Corporate Services Group Mrs M. Messner, Acting Assistant Secretary.

Resource and Development Branch,

Corporate Services Group .Mr K. Baker, Secretary, Agriculture A

Branch, Agricultural Trade Group Mr K. Barker, Acting Assistant Secretar y, Analysis

and Negotiations Branch, Multilateral Trade . Group

Mr D. Gribble, · Principal Adviser, Bilateral Trade

Relations Group Mr R. Vine, Acting Principal Adviser, Mineral s a rtd

Energy Group Mr G. Brennan, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Minerals . B Branch, Minerals and Energy Group Mr N. Lane, Director, Non Ferrous Industrial

Minerals, Gemstones Section, Minerals and Energy Group Mr R. Filmer, Principal Adviser, Economic and

Trade Development- Group Mr M. Burgess, Acting Secretary,

Office

25.

Austrade (Australian Trade Commission) Mr T. Exell, Acting Managing Director

Mr P. Hartigan, Manager, National Operations

Mr s. Ryan, Acting Manager, Resources and Services

Mr J. Bennett, General Manager, Market Development

Grants Group

Also in attendance: Mr T.W. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division, Department of Finance.

The Chairman called on the following divisions for examination:

Divisions 640, 642, 643, 644, 964 and 965.

The Committee concluded its examination of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Trade, subject to undertakings to provide additional information.

5. ADJOURNMEN T

The Committee adjourned at 2.00 a.m. on Friday, 17 April 1986.

6. ATTENDAN CE

Senators Richardson (Chairman), Cook, Hill, Ray and Short. An apology wa s received from Senator Jessop. Also in attendance were Senators Archer, Chaney, , Vanstone and Vigor.

CONFIRMED:

26.

(Graham Richardson) Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 13

WEDNESDAY, 30 APRIL 1986

1. MEETING

The Committee met in private session at 7.04pm in Senate Committee Room 7. The Chairman (Senator Richardson) took the Chair.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES

The minutes of meetings held on 15 and 17 April 1986 were confirmed.

3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE

The Committee considered the Chairman's draft report to the Senate.

Resolved: That the draft report be agreed to.

4. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

Senator Cook informed the Committee that as a result of written information supplied to the Committee by the Australian Trade Commission he wished to put additional questions to the Commission.

Resolved: That additional questions to the Australian Trade be forwarded 'in writing tomorrow for written

response as soon as possible.

5. ADJOURNMENT

The Committee adjourned at 7.15pm.

27.

6 . ATTE NDANCE

Senators Richardson (Chairman), Cook, Hill and Jessop.

28.

CERTIFIED CORRECT:

)

Lf':wi (Graham Richardson) · Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee B has the honour to present its Report to the Sena.te.

1. On 19 March 1986 the Senate referred to the Committee the

Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year ehding on 30 June 1986, and Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1986, for the following DepartmeQts:

Department of Community Services Department of Immigration and Ethnic ·Affairs Department of Social Security Department of Health

2. The Committee has considered the Additional Estimates and has received explanations of them from the Minister for Communi t y Services, (Senator the Hon. Don Grimes) and officers of the departments concerned. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings

and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No.3) 1985-86 and Appropriation Bill (No.4) 1985-86.

Answers to questions which were deferred and are to be subsequently given in writing will be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committee's hearings.

31.

3 . The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

follo wing matters arising from its consideration of the Addit ional Estimates:

Grants fo r Children's Centres

The Committee notes with concern the advice it received from

the Department of Community Services that there have been delays in the opening of some Children's Centres, particularly in the State of Victoria, and the further advice that there have been excessive costs associated with some centres adopting

unnecessarily high standards. The Committe.e accepts the explanation and undertaking given by the Minister, Senator the Hon . Don Grimes, that this matter is currently being addressed.

The Committee will examine progress on the matter during its considerat ion of Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Department of Community Services for 1986-87.

Repetition Strain Injury

In its Reports to the Senate of October 1984 and October 1985 , the Committee expressed a continuing concern at the problem of repetition strain injury (RSI) within Commonwealth Government Departments, and an interest in methods .used to combat the

incidence of RSI. The Committee notes with satisfaction the evide nce provided by the Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affai rs , indicating a reduction in the incidence of RSI in that Department .

Evidence presented by the Department of Health indicated howeve r that RSI has been partly responsible for a substantial dela y (of approximately 51 million items, representing a backlog of abou t 5 months processing time) in the processing of pharmaceutical scripts in the 'Pharmpay' system. It appears that a combi nation of automatic direct entry of claims together with

32.

the introduction of new furniture and equipment for operators is reducing the incidence of RSI. The Committee will be seeking evidence for this apparent reduction in its consideration of the Department's Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for 1986-87.

The Committee notes that despite the incidence of RSI, the Department is still required to discharge its obligations and that it should if necessary, make arrangements to ensure that those obligations are not affected. It remains a matter

for concern that even though the Department increased its average operative staffing level by 24, to with the loss of staff

due to RSI, the processing of pharmaceutical scripts in the 'Pharmpay' remains in arrears.

The Australia Card

The Committee notes with interest the evidence provided by several departments on certain possible of the

introduction of an Australia Card.

Evidence presented by the Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs indicated that such a Card, while perhaps having little effect on the apprehension of illegal immigrants (prohibited non-citizens), could serve as a persuasive disincentive for illegal immigrants to stay in the country. Without a Card, such people would be unable to obtain a job or

receive any government benefits.

The Department of Social Security reiterated evidence given

before the Joint Select Committee on the Australia Card that it could not provide any advice as to what benefit such a card would be in minimising the payment of illegal social security payments other than that it could perhaps recover the costs of

implementing such a scheme. Officers of the Department advised

that failure to notify changes in circumstances rather than false identit y , was a principal cause of overpayment of social security payments .

Failure to Provide Written Replies

The Committee reports that as at 30 April 1986, despite repeated requests, the Department of Health has failed to provide responses t o any of the questions ,placed on notice. The Committee record s its dissatisfaction with this situation.

4 . The Comm ittee records its appreciation of the assistance

give n b y the Minister for Community Services (Senator the Hon . Do n Grimes) and officers of the departments concerned.

34.

Patricia J. Giles Chairperson

ESTIMATES B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 9

TUESDAY, 15 APRIL 1986

1. MEETING:

The Committee met at 4.06 p.m. in Senate Rooms 1

and 2. Senator Giles, took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND CERTAIN PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86:

Department of Community Services

In Attendance:

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Community Services

Mr S. Hamilton, Deputy Secretary

Mr J. Simpson, First Assistant Secretary, Corporate Services

Division Ms M. Murnane, Director, Office of Child Care

Mr G. Pilger, Assistant Secretary, Supported Accommodation

Assistance Branch

37.

Mr B. O'Shannassy, Assistant Secretary, Accommodation and

Residents Branch Mr J . Hetherington, Assistant Secretary, Operations and

Practices Branch Mr o. Winder, Assistant Secretary, Strategic Planning Branch

Mr B. Macdonald, Assistant Secretary, Resources Branch

Mr M. Johnson, Assistant Director, Accommodation Finance

Branch Ms M. J . Scott, Assistant Secretary, Home and Community Care

Prog ram

Department of Finance

Mr T . W. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division Ms J . van der Heide, Senior Finance Officer, Financial

Management and Accounting Policy Division

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Division 220 - Department of Community Services, (Document A)

Division 840 and 841 - Department of Community Services, (Document B)

The Comm ittee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1985-86 and Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure 1985-86 for the Department of Commu nity Services, subject to an undertaking by the Minister

to provide additional information in writing to the Commi ttee .

38.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND CERTAIN PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86:

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

In Attendance:

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community Services, _accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

Mr A.C. Harris, Deputy Secretary

Ms S. Kirby, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management

Division Mr D. Richardson, Assistant Secretary, Refugees and

Humanitarian Branch Mr G. Chapman, Director, Program Management and Support

Services Section, Education _Branch Ms C. Blesing, Acting Assistant Secretary, Ethnic Affairs

Branch Ms H. Ramsay, Director, Community Welfare Section, Ethnic

Affairs Branch Ms L. Glen, Director, Migrant Centre Network Section,

Settlement Branch Mr v. McMahon, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Services

Branch Mr T. Rodgers, Executive Director, Council on Overseas

Professional1 Qualifications

39.

Depa r tment of Finance

Mr T .W. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accou nting Policy Division Ms J . van der Heide, Senior Finance Officer, Financial

Management and Accounting Policy Division

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 360 and 364 - Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, (Document A) Division 903 - Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, (Doc ument B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1985-86 and Certain Propos e d Additional Expenditure 1985-86 for the Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, subject to an undertaking by the Mi nister to provide additional information in writing to the Commi ttee.

4 . PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND

CERTA I N PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86:

Department of Social Security

In Attendance:

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community Services, accompanied by the following officers:

40.

Department of Social Security

Mr C. McAlister, National Manager

Mr J.F. MacMahon, First Assistant Secretary, Benefits

Delivery Division Mr J.V. Humphreys, First Assistant Secretary, Systems

Division Mr M.R. Douglas, First Assistant Secretary, Legislation and

Review Divi$ion Mr R. Elmes, Assistant Secretary, Human Resource Management

Branch Mr A. Law, Assistant Secretary, Benefits Administration and

Entitlements Branch Mr T.C. Murphy, Assistant Secretary, Benefits Control Branch

Mr W.H. Lewisson, Assistant Commissioner, Management and

Operations, Commonwealth Employees' Compensation Mr P. Wurfel, Acting Assistant Secretary,· Finance Branch

Department of Finance

Mr T.W. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division Ms J. van der Heide, Senior Finance Officer, Financial

Management and Accounting Policy Division

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Division 560 - Department of Social Security, (Document A) Division 948 - Department of Social Security, (Document B)

41.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Pr oposed Additional Expenditure 1985-86 and Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure 1985-86 for the Department of social Security, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information in writing to the Committee.

5 . PARTI CULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND

CERTAI N PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86:

Department of Health

In At tendance

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community Services , accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Health

Mr B.V . McKay, Secretary

Mrs A. L. Kern, Deputy Secretary Dr R. Wells, Acting Chief Commonwealth Medical Officer

Mr M. Roche, First Assistant Secretary, Corporate Resources

Division Mr P . Pflaum, First Assistant Secretary, National Health and

Medical Research Division Mr A. Bansemer, First Assistant Secretary, Health Services

Financ ing Division Dr J. Donovan, First Assistant Secretary, Therapeutics Division Mr I . McNeil, Assistant Secretary, Resources Branch

Mr T . Grigson, Acting Assistant Secretary, Utilisation,

Statistics and Costing Branch

42.

Dr A • . Proudfoot, Assistant Secretary, Communicable Diseases

Branch Mr A. Mair, Director, Financial Resources Section

Mr M. Clarke, Assistant Secretary, Australia Card Secretariat

Dr R. Cumming, Principal Adviser, National Health and Medical

Research Division Dr J. Deeble, Director, Australian Institute of Health

Mr M. Murray, Assistant General Manager, Finance, Health

Insuranqe Commission

Department of Finance

Mr T.W. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management · and

Accounting Policy Division Ms J. van der Heide, Senior Finance Officer, Financial

Management and Accounting Policy Division

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 325 to 327 - Department of Health, (Document A) Divisions 881 to 883 - Department of Health, (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars

of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1985-86 and Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure 1985-86 for the Department of Health, subject to an undertaking by the to provide

additional information in writing to the Committee.

6. ADJOURNMENT:

The Committee adjourned at 11.04 p.m.

43.

7 . AT TENDANCE:

The following members of Committee were present:

CONF IRMED

Senator P.J. Giles (Chairperson) Senator the Hon. P. Baume Senator R.A. Crowley Senator R.C. Elstob Senator the Han. A.J. Messner Senator G. Sheil

Patric ia J. Giles . Cha irperson

44.

1.

2.

3.

MEETING:

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 10

WEDNESDAY, 30 APRIL 1985

The Committee met in deliberative session at 12.48 p.m. in Committee Room No. 5. Senator Giles took the Chair.

MINUTES OF PREVIOUS MEETINGS:

The minutes of the previous meeting of the committee were confirmed.

CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT:

The Committee considered the Chairperson's draft report to the Senate. The Committee agreed to a number of amendments.

Resolved - that the Report as amended be adopted as the

Report of the Committee and be tabled in the Senate by the Chairperson.

45.

4 .

5 .

ADJ OURMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.58 p.m.

ATTEN DANCE: Senator P.J. Giles (Chairperson) Senator The Hon. Peter Baume Senator R.A. Crowley Senator G. Sheil

46 .

Cert ified Correct:

Patricia J. Giles Chairperson

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee C has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 19 March 1986, the Senate referred to the Committee the

Additional Estimates for the year ending 30 June 1986 relating to the following departments:

Department of Finance Department of the Treasury Department of Employment and Industrial Relations Department of Communications

Department of Primary Industry

2. The Commit tee has considered the estimates of these

departments, together with the departmental explanatory notes, and has received explanations of them from the Minister for

Finance and officers of the departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1985-86 and

Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1985-86. Furth.er written explanations furnished by departments will be presented seperately and printed in the Hansard record.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

following matters:

49.

Australian Broadcasting Corp0ration

Th e c ommittee 1 s October 1985 Report to the Senate referred

0 problems encountered by the Corporation in developing its

financial r e porting systems and in establishing an assets

register wi th current valuations of all assets. The Cornmi ttee undertook i n that report to keep a close watch on these

d velopments .

Si nce t hat Report was presented to the Senate the

Corporation has prepared its first ever financial statements for he year ended 30 June 1985, containing a balance sheet with

current valuation of assets. The Committee commends the

Corporation for this achievement. The Auditor-General did however m ke two s e v e re qualifications to his report on those financial

statement s in relation to valuation of fixed assets and trade

creditors .

In respo nding to the Committee about

Cor oration acknowledged the problems

these matters raised by

the

the

udi tor- General . The Corporati on 1 s explanation was that it is

ti 1 over.coming the effect of 40 years of cash accounting with

no need t o report on all its assets. The Committee accepts that

there wil l be some teething problems in switching from cash to

accrual a ccou nting. However the i terns qualified by the

Auditor- General and raised at the hearing are basic to any

accounting syste m. It is not possible for the Corporation to make ffecti ve management decisions without paper records of assets and trade creditors. Questions were also asked at the hearing

bout the Corpbration 1 s computer payroll system 1 COMPAS 1 and criticisms made by the Auditor-General in his 1985 report to the P rliament on t hat system. Agai n, the Corporation acknowledged

t e problems b eing experienced with 1 COMPAS 1 and advised the

Committee that acti on is now underway to replace that system.

This is another matter the Committee will follow up at future

h arings .

50.

The Corporation has made a great advance in presenting its first ever balance sheet. However the matters raised by the

Auditor-General are basic to any .;:tccounting system and

accordingly the Committee repeats the reservations made in

earlier reports about the Corporation's financial management ability. The Corporation argued at the hearing that systems are now being put in place to overcome these difficulties. The

Committee will again review .these matters in the October/November 1986 Estimates examination to determine whether actual progress has occurred.

Program Budgeting

The Department of Finance and the Department of Employment and Industrial Relations are both participating in the pilot

program to introduce program budgeting. The Senate Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations, in its May 1985 Report to the Senate on 'Changes in the Presentation of the

Appropriations and Departmental Explanatory Notes', recommended that the Committee report to the Senate progress in implementing program budgeting.

In our October 1985 Report to the Senate comment was made on the program format of the explanatory notes. In particular, the Committee referred to difficulties in following the

relationship between the various documents prepared on a program basis to the Appropriation Bills which set out expenditure by

appropriation item.

Despite some reservations expressed at that time about the nature and relationship of the documentation prepared, the

Committee was generally pleased with the trial and stated that it should continue. The Committee simply notes at this time that the explanatory notes prepared for these Additional Estimates were not prepared on a program basis. The introductions to the

explanatory notes of the Departments of Finance and Employment and Industrial Relations referred to this fact, pointing out that

51.

items for which additional funds are sought were cross referenced t rograms identified in the Annual Estimates explanatory notes.

The Committee will report again to the Senate on this matter

after considering the Annual Estimates.

4 . The Commi ttee expresses its appreciation of the assistance

given by the Minister and departmental officers.

52.

(B.K. Childs) Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 1

Tuesday, 15 April 1986

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4 pm. The Chairman, Senator B.K. Childs took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY THE CHAIRMAN: The Chairman reported the Resolution of the Senate of 19 March 1986 and outlined the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Estimates. ·

I

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86

DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS:

4. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister for Finance, representing the Minister for Communications, accompanied by the following officers:

55.

Department of Communications

Mr E E Payne

Mr B W Johnman

Mr J D Maclean

Mr R N Smith

M r M R Ramsay

M r V H Jones

Mrs R Martindale

Deputy Secretary Acting First Assistant Secretary Corporate Policy and Projects Division Assistant Secretary Finance and Regulatory Branch Space, Telecommunications and Postal Division First Assistant Secretary Broadcasting Policy and Planning Division First Assistant Secretary Radio Frequency Management Division First Assistant Secretary Broadcasting Services Division

Di.rector Finance and Services Resources Management Branch

Australian Broadcasting Corporation

M r K Jackson

Mr G Reynolds

Mr J Newsom

Mr J Dudley

Ms J M Ercole

Controller Corporate Relations Controller TV Programs

Controller · Radio Policy Projects Controller Overseas Programs Radio Australia Director Human Resources

56.

Mr A N Le Gallant Director

Finance and EDP

Mr M Robinson Director

Mr T Green

Sales and Marketing Director Concert Music

Australian Tribunal

Mr M J Hanna

Mr J F Hickey

Acting Director Public Inquiry Branch Acting Assistant Secretary Management Services Branch

Special Broadcasting Service

Mr M Sullivan

Mr K Nazaroff

Mr R Gowing

Mr S

Kerkyasharian

Acting Executive Director Head of Administration Assistant Director Finance

Head of Radi-o

Australian Postal Commission

Mr K L Williams

Mr C Grosser

Mr J Wilson

Manager Policy and Planning Branch Operations Department Manager

Message Transfer Marketing Branch Marketing Department Manager Management Accounting Section Financial Operations Branch

57.

Australian Telecommunications Commission

Mr R P Liggett Director

Finance

Department of Finance

Mr S Barton

Mr T S Wilson

Acting Chief Finance Officer Senior Finance Officer

The Chairman called on the following for consideration:

ABC Division

ABC Division

SBS Division

ABT Division

Australia Post Telecom Australia

201 834 201 202

(Document A) (Document B) (Document A) (Document A)

Dept. - Division 200 (Document A) Dept. - Division 833 (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the particulars of proposed additional expenditure 1985-86 subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

5 . PARTICULA RS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86

DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE:

6 . IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister for Finance accompanied by the following officers:

58.

Department of Finance

Mr J Mellors

Mr D K Wallace

Mr J V Galloway

Ms S Fenwick

Mr A Forner

Mr J Martin

Mr T Wilson

Mr J Walsh

First Assi.stant Secretary Transport and Industry Division Acting First Assistant Secretary, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division Assistant Secretary

Resource Policies and Management Branch Assistant Secretary Retirememt Benefits Branch

Cheif Finance officer Regional and Accounting Operations Division Acting Director

Regional and Accounting Operations Division Senior Finance Officer Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division

Director Resource Policies and Branch

Australian Government Retirement Benefits Office

Mr K J McCullagh

Mr R R Jackson

Acting Assistant Commissioner Resource Management Branch Acting Director Financial and Management Services

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 304, 305 (Document A) Division 865 (Document B)

59.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the particulars of proposed additional expenditure 1985-86 subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

7 . PAR TI CULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86

DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS:

8 . IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister for Finance, representing the Minister for Employment and I ndustrial Relations, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Employment and Industrial Relations

Mr C Wood Dr P Scherer

M r K Power

Mr D Power

Mr N Schouten

Mr J McCarthy

Mr A Kaspura

M r C O'Connell

Mr R Halstead

Chief General Manager A/g Director Bureau of Labour Market Research First Secretary

Management Policy and Development Division A/g Assistant Secretary Management Branch

A/g First Assistant Job Creation and Youth Programs Division A/g General Manager Special Groups Division A/g General Manager

Planning and ADP Division A/g Assistant Secretary Traineeships Implementation Branch Principal Executive Officer Operations Section Traineeships Policy Branch

60.

Mr M Murphy

Mr B Frawley

Hr G Dixon

Mr J Woodrow

Mr J Leyden

Mr K Stone

Mr J Brassil

Mr J Limbrick

Assistant Secretary Training Branch First Assistant Secretary Industrial Relations

(General Industry) Division First Assistant Secretary Labour Market and Economic Analysis Division

First Assistant Secretary Labour Relations and International Division A/g Manager

Administration Office of the Industrial Registrar National Director Australian Trade Union Training Authority

Chairman National Occupational Health and Safety Commission First Director

National Occupational Health and Safety Commission

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 287, 288, 290, 291 (Document A) Divisions 860, 861, 862 (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the particulars of proposed additional expenditure 1985-86 subject to an underataking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

61.

g . ADJ OURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.30 p.m.

10 . ATTE NDANCE: Senators Childs (Chairman), Boswell, Brownhill, Devli n, Parer. Senators Micheal Baume, Cook, Messner, Puplick and Vigor also attended. An apology was received from Senator Maguire.

CONFI RMED:

(B.K. Childs) Chai rman

62.

THE SENAT E

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 2

Thursday, 17 April 1986

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 9 pm. The Chairman, Senator B.K. Childs took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITION AL EX PENDITURE 1985-86

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY:

3. IN Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister

for Finance, representing the Minister for the Treasury, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of the Treasury

Mr J D Moore

Mr R Q Freney

Mr B J Gleeson

Deputy Secretary Assistant Secretary Loans and Debt Management Branch Revenue Loans and Investment

Division Assistant Secretary Coordination and Management Branch

63.

M r D W Holmesby Director Finance and Services Section Coordination and Management Branch

Australian Bureau of Statistics

Mr R W Edwards

Mr D Efford

Mr J K Cornish

Ms M C Jones

Ms P Guy

First Assistant Statistician Coordination and Management Division Assistant Statistician Management Improvement Branch Assistant Statistician Population Census Branch Director Resource Management Section Senior Inspector Finance Management Subsection

Austral ian Taxation Office Representatives

Mr J J Daly

Mr W W Reed

Department of Finance

Mr T S Wilson

Senior Assistant Commissioner (Operations Division) Assistant Commissioner Department of Finance

Senior Finance Officer _

The Chai rman called on the following for consideration:

Divi s i ons 670, 671, 676, 678 (Document A) Divisions 976, 977, 978 (Document B)

The Commit tee concluded its consideration of the particulars of proposed additonal expenditure 1985-86 subject t o an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

64.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86

DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY:

5. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister for Finance, representing the Minister for Primary Industry accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Primary Industry

Mr J L Gibson

Mr R W Gee

Mr B Wonder

Mr J Landos

Mr P Core

Mr N Honan

Mr E R Thorn

Mr B Lilburn

Mr G Mackey

Mr M Blarney

Mr T J Kelly

Deputy Secretary Director Australian Agricultural Health and Quarantine Service

Chief Economist

Bureau of Agricultural Economics Senior Assistant Director Export Inspection Service First Assistant Secretary

Development and Coordination Division First Assistant Secretary Field Crops Division First Assistant Secretary

Dairy and Intensive Livestock Division Assistant Secretary Australian Fisheries Service

First Assistant Secretary Forestry and Horticultural Crops Division First Assistant Secretary

Meat and Wool Division First Assistant Secretary Management Division

65.

Mr J R Smith

M r D D Pearson

Assistant Secretary Management Services Branch, Management Division Assistant Secretary Resources Management Branch, Management .Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 490, 495, 497 (Document A) Di visions 930, 932, 933 (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the pa r ticulars of proposed additional expenditure 1985-86 subj ect to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

6 . ADJOUR NMENT: The Committee adjourned at 11.22 p.m.

1 . ATTEN DANCE: Senators Childs (Chairman), Brownhill, Devlin and Parer. Senators Micheal Baume and Messner also atte nded. Apologies were received from Senators Boswell and Magui re.

CONFI RMED:

(B . K. Childs) Chai rman

66.,

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 3

THURSDAY, 1 MAY 1986

1. MEETING: The Committee met in deliberative session at

1.57 p.m. The Chairman, Senator B.K. Childs, took the Chair.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the meetings held on Tuesday, 15 April 1986 and Thursday, 17 April 1986 were

read and confirmed.

3. REPORT OF COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the

Chairman's draft Report to the Senate.

Resolved: On the motion of Senator Devlin, seconded by

Senator Parer, that the report be adopted.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 1. 59 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were

present: Senators Childs (Chairman), Devlin, Maguire,

Parer. Apologies were received from Senators Boswell and Brownhill.

CONFIRMED:

(B.K. Childs) Chairman

67.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates · Commit tee D presents its Report to t h e

Senate.

INTRODUCTION .

1. On 19 March 1986, the Senate referred to the

Committee the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditu re for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1986 and the

Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure i n Respect of the year ending on 30 June 1986, relating t o t h e

following departments:

2.

Education Housing and Construction Sport, Recreation and Tourism Heritage and Environment

Aboriginal Affairs

The Committee has considered .these Estimates and has received explanations of them from the Minister for Educatio n (Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan) and officers of the departme nts concerned. A copy of the Minutes of PJ:;oceedings, docume nts

tabled during public hearings and Hansard reports of the

evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the informatio n of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No 3)

1985-86 and Appropriation Bill (No 4) 1985-86.

3. The Committee draws ·the attention of the Senate to

the following matters arising from its consideration of the Estimates:

71.

DEPARTMENT OF ARTS, HERITAGE AND ENVIRONMENT

Australia Council - The Australian Opera

The Australian Opera is a private company which,

whilst i n receipt of significant Government support, is in no sense a Government body nor a part of the Arts, · Heritage and

Environment portfolio. Previous Estimates Committees have raised c oncerns over the responsibility and accountability for large grants received through the Australia Council by the

Australi an Opera (and also the Australian Ballet Foundation and Elizabethan Theatre Trust Orchestras).

In November 1978 Estimates Committee D made the

following comments in its Report to the Senate (PP 301/1978):

While the Committee appreciates that these bodies [The Australian Opera and The

Australian Ballet] are private organisa­ tions and are accountable to the Council

for their expenditure of public funds, the Committee considers that more detailed i nformation should be provided on the

expenditure of those bodies which receive large sums. The explanatory notes provided by the Australia Council provide only

figure s for few broad sub-divisions of

expenditure.

In September 1982 Estimates Committee B made the

followi ng comments relating to responsibility in its Report to the Senate (PP 320/1982):

Because the Australian Ballet is funded by a single-line appropriation there is no

effective external influence on the use to which public monies is put. The Australia Council has no effective role to play, and the Government is unwilling or unable to

t ake responsibility for the use the

Australian Ballet makes of these public

monies. (This also applies to the

Australi an Opera and the Elizabethan Trust Orchestra.)

72.

Funding arrangements for these bodies have altered in recent years. Single-line appropriations within the Division relating to the Australia Council have been dispensed with in favour of a single appropriation for expenditure under the

Australia Council Act 1975. Funds for the Australian Opera are now provided through the Music Board of the Australia Council

and in the Minister for Arts, Heritage and Environment's view the appropriate line of accountability for these funds is from the Australian Opera to the Australia Council via the Music

·Board.

The Additional Estimates for the Department included a special one-off grant of $1.7 37m to be contributed by the

Commonwealth Government to the Australian Opera. The grant is to be channelled through the Australia Council. The

Commonwealth Government's decision, in conjunction with the States, followed consideration of a report prepared jointly by Coopers and Lybrand, led by Mr R. Cameron, and Mr K. Williams, Chief Executive of the Australian Film Commission, who had been commissioned by the Australia Council to undertake a detailed

study of the Australian Opera Company. Although the full cost of this study has not yet been finalised, the Commit tee was

informed "that it is likely to be considerably more than

$90 000". (Hansard 10.4.86, p22).

The Committee considered that given the circumstances relating to this grant, it would be beneficial to have

representative.s from the Australian Opera appear before the Committee, in addition to representatives from the Australia Council and the Department.

However, difficulties emerged with the "appropriate line of accountability". Senate Standing Order 36AB provides that Estimates Committees may ask for explanations from Senate Ministers, or officers, relating to the items of proposed

expenditure. In this particular case the Minister in the Senate and officers of the Department and Australia Council would

be available to the Committee to provide information on

Government policy in relation to the arts, including the

Australian Opera, and the specific reasons for any particular appropriation or expenditure item. 73.

These difficulties were, on this occasion, overcome after c ommunication between the Chairperson and the Minister, in the General Manager of the Mr Cohen , which resulted Australi an Opera appearing before the Committee during the considera t i on of the additional estimates for the Department of Arts , He r i t age and Environment. The Committee wishes to place on record its appreciation at Mr Cohen's co-operation in this matter .

Nevertheless the Committee is deeply concerned at the

gen e ral p r i n c i ple this issue raises relating to the problem of

accountability of the many diverse companies, organisations, bodies a nd groups which are in receipt of significant

governmen t al support channelled through various intermediary authorities , corporations or boards.

The Committee notes that the Senate Standing

Committee on Finance and Government Operations has commented on th inhibiti ng effect for parliamentary scruti ny of the

creation a nd use of subsidiaries and intermediaries by

statutory a u t horities in its Reports on the Australian Dairy orporation and its Asian Subsidiaries Fund Inves t me nt Trust. The Committee

and Superannuation

understands that the

Finance a nd Government Operations Committee is considering the general prin c i ple of accountability of such organisations

indicated above as an aspect of its inquiry into non-statutory bodies of t he Commonwealth.

The Committee indicates that should similar

circumstan c es arise in the future, it will not hesitate to

request as s i stance from organisations in this category.

Australian National Maritime Museum

The Explanatory Notes for the Australian National Maritime Mu seum outlined a dissection of $120 000 in the

Sub-Division p roviding for the payment of administrative

74.

expenses related to the Museum. Questioning by the Committee provided a further breakdown of this figure. It was indicated that $26 000 was for a consultancy to prepare a corporate image for the Museum and · $50 000 was for the preparation of a video

and brochures for the Prime Minister to use as promotional

material during his visit to the United States. The latter

figure was further dissected as $28 000 for the video and

$22 000 for 300 four-page brochures.

During questioning it was indicated that timing

constraints affecting the printing of the brochure had resulted in an apparent increase in printing costs from $8 100 to

$22 000. It was alleged that this delay was compounded by

actions taken by the Department of Finance.

Following the hearing on 10 April and an answer to a

Question without Notice on 11 April, in which the Minister

representing the Minister for Arts, Heritage and Environment stated that the Department of Finance was not responsible for any escalation in the costs of the promotional material, the

Committee decided to reconsider the Division relating to the Museum.

At its hearing on 28 April the Committee was

presented with a chronology of the preparation of the brochure and video and the awarding of the contract to prepare the

Museum's corporate image, and subsequently the brochure, to a particular consultancy (Hansard, 28.4.86, pp 522-3). It was also stated that previous comments attributing delay to the Department of Finance were incorrect, and that the Department

of Finance was, inf act, unaware that the brochure was being

prepared.

The Committee is of the opinion that this episode

raises an issue of general concern. In the situation where an

organisation is in the process of changing its financial base from being a part of an Executive department to becoming an

independent statutory authority, difficulties can easily be encountered when a specific expense, which -had not previously

75.

e n b udgeted for, suddenly arises. It appears that in this

par tic u l ar case the Museum was gradually moving to the awarding of a con t ract for the preparation of a corporate image, and was

not aware of the added expense that would emerge · from the

r q u i reme nt that the brochure be prepared and printed by

April 1 4. It was indicated that the escalation in printing

costs resulted from the limited time available to prepare and prin t t h e final product. The Committee considers that improved procedure s c ould have reduced the final cost.

NERAL

Repetition Strain Injury and Compensation Claims

During

d par t me n t s and

a nd t he actions

the hearings questions

authorities relating to the taken by the respective

were asked

incidence of organisations

of

RSI to

prev e n t t he incidence of RSI. The Committee noted the comments · n t he Commissioner for Employees' Compensation Annual Report

984-85 t hat "part of the increase in the total number of

claims i n

r petition

1984-85 is attributed to claims arising from

strain injury." (PP 47/1986, p A). Information

r ceived from various organisations confirmed these comments.

The Committee was particularly concerned to note that whilst most organisations based their preventive actions on ub ic Se rvice Board Guidelines there was considerable

d i sparity between the procedures adopted by individual

organ i sations. This problem has been raised by Estimates

ornrnittee B in its reports in October 1984 and October 1985.

Although most departments employ an occupational hath o ff i cer , the Cornrnittee . notes the comments in the Report of t h e Task Force on Repetition Strain Injury in the Australian Public Service which attributed "a large measure of the failure of RSI ma nagement within the APS, and the fragmented and often

n ffectual programs established by departments, to the lack of

preve ntive health service in the APS "·. (p 101)

76.

The Commit tee is aware that the Commit tee on

Occupational Health and Safety in Australian Governme.n t

Employment has established a working plan for the provision of preventive health services in Australian Government Employme n t . The Committee supports the recommendations of the Task Force on

RSI in this area and, as Estimates Committee B indicated in i ts

October 1985 Report, looks forward to a timely government

response to those recommendations.

Manner of Responding to Questions During Hearings

During the hearing on 10 April the Deputy Secretary of the Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment, Mr A.G. Kerr in answer to a question from Senator Newman as to "whe t her there has been any correspondence between the [Commonwealth and Tasmanian] Governments on the future of the [Port Arthur

Conservation and Development] project, answered

understand it, not yet". (Hansard, 10.4.86, P 56). "as I

Mr Kerr subsequently advised the Comm i ttee that "it

might have been more helpful if I had acknowledged that the

Tasmanian Government had [in correspondence dating from

25 September 1985] requested advice from the Federal Government

on the future funding of the Port Arthur project, (although I

was not aware of the details of that request) 11 • (see Appendix

1). The Committee accepts Mr Kerr's explanation and apology.

The Committee is concerned that this exchange

reflected a not uncommon attitude among witnesses of providi ng unduly legalistic interpretations and answers to strai ght­ forward questions asked by members of the Committee. The

Committee regards this practice as most unsatisfactory and expects direct and complete answers from all witnesses at al l times.

The Commit tee has commented previously on the

obligation on departments to be specific when providing

information to the Committee (Report May 1985, PP 510/1985).

77.

The Committee expresses its appreciation of the

assistance given by the Minister for Education, Senator the

Hon . Susan Ryan, and

Environment, t he Hon.

appearance o f certain

various departments and Committee .

the Minister for Arts, Heritage

Barry Cohen, for facilitating

witnesses, and the officers of

authorities who appeared before

and the the the

The Committee records its appreciation at the service

provided by Hansard staff who assisted the Committee's

d liberations by expeditiously providing transcripts after

public hearings.

M y 986

78.

·: .

I . I i

/I . I I I ' 1,. '••.· ,.f 1 ' . , ; . • · \ ., \. ! /·, . . j /P .LJ .' { ; ' "-·f I 'u L . f c ere/ tJ-_. ' .. Margaret Reynolds Chairperson

DEPARTMENT OF ARTS, HERITAGE AND ENVIRONMENT

GPO BOX 1252, CANBERRA, ACT 2601. TELEPHONE 4672 1 1. TELEX AA6 2960

.ktinq OFFICE OF THE1SECRETARY Senator Margaret Reynolds Chairperson Senate Estimates Committee D

Parliament House CANBERRA ACT 2600

Dear Senator Reynolds

APPENDIX 1

I write to you in relation to the matter of Federal Governme n t

funding for the restoration work at Port Arthur in Tasmania.

I understand that following my response to ques e ions asked o f me in Estimates Committee D on 10 April 1986 and an explanatory

statement, made to the Committee on my behalf on 28 April 1986 by Mr K. E. Thompson, Acting Deputy Secretary of the Department o f Arts, Heritage and Environment, that it was said in the Comm i t t ee that I had attempted grossly to mislead the Senate.

Naturally such a charge distresses me considerably and I am

concerned to try to explain my position to yo.ur Committee and to apologise should my answers and statement have been taken to be an attempt on my part to mislead your Committee and, in turn, the Senate.

May I say that at no stage was I trying to mislead you r

Committee. My task, as is the task of other officers of t he

Department in giving evidence before Estimates

Committee's, is to answer questions put to us as clearly and

correctly as we are able. I interpreted Senator Newman's

question to me "Could you tell me whether there has been any

correspondence between the government on the future of . the

project" as meaning an exchange of letters between the

Governments on the substance of the f uture funding of the Por t

Arthur restoration project, and I answered "As I understand i t,

not yet".

I was aware that at 10 April the Federal Government had no t

responded in substance to the requests from Tasmania for funding beyond 30 June 1986. Had I answered "Yes" I would have bee n

incorrect in the sense that 1 as far as I knew 1 there was no

decision regarding Federal Government assistance at that stage nor any indication to the Tasmanian Government of the Federal

Government's intentions.

I realise now that it might have been more helpful if I had

acknowledged that the Tasmanian Government had requested advice from the Federal Government on the future funding of the Port

Arthur project, (although I was not aware of the details of that

request) and I apologise also for not saying that. I perhaps

wrongly assumed that that fact was known and that Senator Newman was seeking an indication of the Federal Government's response to the Tasmanian Government's request. 79.

I trust that this explanation - of my conduct before your Committee i accepted as being in no way an attempt to mislead your

Committee i n its deliberations on the additional estimates for he Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment.

Yours sincerely

A. G. Kerr Acting Secretary

29 Apri l 1986

80.

DOCUMENTS TABLED DURING PUBLIC HEARINGS

OR

PROVIDED AS ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

TO THE COMMITTEE

DOCUMENTS TABLED DURING PUBLIC HEARINGS OR

PROVIDED AS ADDITIONAL INFORMATION TO THE COMMITTEE

The following is a list of documents tabled during

the public hearings or provided to the Committee as additional information. The documents been included as an attachment

to the tabled copy of the Committee's Report to the Senate.

Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment

he National Maritime Museum of Australia,

Information Booklet, dated March 1986.

Port Arthur Conservation and Development Project, Tasmanian National Parks and Wildlife Service:

The Port Arthur Project Four Year Program 1986-1990

83.

';

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO 15

Thursday, 10 April 1986

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 11.35am in- Senate Committee Room No 6. 2. RESOLUTIONS: The Secretary reported Resolutions of the Senate dated 19 March 1986, 20 March 1986 and

9 April 1986 relating to the reference of Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1985-86 and

changes in membership of Estimates Committees.

3. ELECTION OF CHAIRPERSON: The Secretary called for nomina­ tions for Chairperson. Senator Reynolds was nominated by Senator Morris. There being no further

nominations, Senator Reynolds was declared elected and thereupon took the Chair.

4. MANNER OF EXAMINING ESTIMATES: The Commit tee agreed to proceed with the examination of Departmental

Estimates in the following order:

Education Arts, Heritage and Environment Housing and Construction Sport, Recreation and Tourism Aboriginal Affairs

5. ATTENDANCE OF WITNESSES: Senator Reynolds made a statement relating to actions that had been taken, at the

request of Senator Puplick, to facilitate the

appearance of witnesses from the Australian Opera at the examination of the estimates of the Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment.

Senator Puplick placed on record his appreciation of the successful outcome of his request.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 11.40am.

7. ATTENDANCE: Newman, Senators Michael Baume, Puplick and Reynolds.

CONFIRMED

Cooney, Morris,

Margaret Reynolds Chairperson

87.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

NO 16

Thursday, 10 April ,1986

MEETI NG: The Committee met at 11.44am in Senate Committee Room No 6. Senator Reynolds took the Chair.

2 . STATE MENT BY CHAIRPERSON: The Chairperson · made a . statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the

Committee in its examination of the Estimates.

PARTI CULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR 1985-86 -DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION: In attendance, Senator the Hon Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the foll o wi ng officers: De partment of Education

Mr A. G. Abrahart, Senior Adviser Mr K. Henrick, Acting Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary Liaison and Public Relations Branch Ms D. Mi ldern, First Assistant Secretary,

Schools General Programs Division Mr P . Cameron, Assistant Secretary, Capital Grants Branch Mr W. Daniels, Assistant Secretary,

Operations Branch Mr P . Hi ckey, First Assistant Secretary, Tertiary Education, Training and General Division Mr A. Cruttenpen, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Tertiary Education Resource Planning Branch Mr J . Redrup, Director, Tertiary Education Resource Planning Branch Mr B. Milligan, First Assistant Secretary ;

General Student Assistance Division Mr N. Neal, Acting Director, Secondary Schemes, Special Programs, Budget and

. Statistics Section Mr J . Wi lson, First Assistant Secretary, Schools Policy and Resource Division Mr E. Pi ckering, Director,

Participation and Equity Program No. 1 Section Mr R .N. Allen, Director, Australian Capital Terri tory Office of. Technical and Further Education Mr E . West, Chairman,

National Aboriginal Education Committee Dr S. Borthwick, Senior Executive Officer, National Advisory and Co-Ordinating Committee on Multicultural Education Mr D. Brewster, Assistant Secretary,

Research Statistics and Special Projects Branch

88.

Miss J.L. Miller, Assistant Secretary, International Education Branch Mr J.M. Parr, Assistant Secretary, Aboriginal Education Branch Miss J. Ledgar, Deputy Director,

Overseas Students Office Dr A. Taloni, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division Mr R.G. Harvey, Assistant Secretary,

Planning and Budgeting Branch

Australian National ·university Professor· A.D. Barton, Treasurer Mr H.A. Jones, Head, Finance and Accounts Mr J.A. Brayshaw, Budget Officer

Canberra College of Advanced Education Mr G. MeL. Eadie, Registrar-Secretary Mr W.C. Dwyer, Bursar

Commonwealth Schools Commission Mr R. McNamara, First Assistant Commissioner, Policy Co-ordination and Services Division Dr J. McMorrow, First Assistant Commissioner,

Equity, Language and Culture Division Dr K. Kennedy, Acting First Assistant Commissioner, Curriculum and School Development Division Mr B. Peck, Assistant Commissioner,

Equity in Schools Branch Ms H. Allnutt, Acting Assistant Commiss1oner, Language and Culture Branch Ms P. Karmel, Assistant Commissioner,

Schools Resources Branch Ms D. Suggett, Assistant Commissioner, Curriculum and School Development Division Mr A Fidock, Acting Assistant Commissioner,

Curriculum and School Development Division Mr B. Thomas, Chief Executive Officer, Administration and Finance Branch Mr M. Howard, Acting Director,

Finance

Commonwealth Tertiary Education Commission Mr R.H. Grahame, Assistant Commissioner, Executive Board Dr J. Grant, Assistant Commissioner,

Planning and Analysis Mr M. Kinsella, Acting Director, Finance and Legislation Section

Department of Finance Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and Policy Division

The Chairperson called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 270-284 (Document A) Divisions 848-855 (Document B) 89.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Education, subject to undertakings to provide

additional information to the Committee. 4. PARTI CULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR 1985-86 -DEPARTMENT OF ARTS, HERITAGE AND ENVIRONMENT: In attendance, Senator the Hon Susan Ryan, Minister for

Education, accompanied by the following officers:

De partment of Arts, Heritage and Environment Mr A.G. Kerr, Deputy . Secretary Mr M. Bourke, First Assistant Secretary, Corporate and Portfolio Support Division Ms C . Santamaria, Acting ,First Assistant Secretary,

Arts, Film and Heritage Division Mr C .D. Pitson, Assistant Secretary, Corporate Services Branch Mr B. J . Zanetti, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Portfolio Support

National Film and Sound Archive Mr G.H. Gilmore, Director

Aust ralian Archives Mr B. Cox, Director-General

Australia Council Dr D. Yerbury, General Manager Mr J. Kitney, Director, Management Services

Ms S. Pretty, Project Officer, Music Board

Aust ralian Film Commission Mr K. Williams, Chief Executive Mr B.J. Gittings, General Manager, Co r porate Services

Aust ralian Film and Television School Ms A. Deveson, Director Mr T . Baxter, Head

Ma nagement Services

Australian Heritage Commission Mr C . Griffiths, Director Mr P . Cheah, Assistant Director, Administration

Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service Professor J.D. Ovington, Director

Aust ralian National Gallery Mr J . Mollison, Director Mr M. Claasz, Financial Manager

National Library of Australia Mr W.M. Horton, Director-General Mr P .M. Hawker, Assistant Director-General Co -ordination and Management Division '

90.

National Maritime Museum Mr S. Sergi

Mr M. Ryan

Office of the Supervising Scientist Mr J. Short, Head,

Management Services Branch

Australian Opera Mr P. Veitch, General Manager

Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority Mr - P. Quilty, Assisting Executive Officer

Department of Finance Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Finance Management and Accounting Policy Division

The Minister made an introductory statement.

The Chairperson called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 136, 142, 130-133 ·(Document A) Divisions 811 and 812 (Document B) Divisions 140, 149,143-146 (Document A)

The Committee having concluded its consideration of Division 146 suspended its hearing of the Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 11.03pm.

6. ATTENDANCE: Senators Michael Baume, Cooney, Morris, Newman, Puplick and Reynolds. Senators Peter Baume, Collard and Ki} gariff also attended.

CONFIRMED:

91.

Margaret Reynolds Chairperson

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

NO 17

Monday, 28 April 1986

MEETING: The Committee met at 2.04pm in Senate Committee Room No 6. In the absence of the Chairperson,

Senator Cooney took the Chair.

2 . STATEMENT BY ACTING CHAIRPERSON: Senator Cooney made a statement relating to the reappearance of a witness fro m the National Maritime Museum and the proposed reconsideration of Division 133 of the Department of Arts , Heritage and Environment relating to the

National Maritime Museum.

3 . PARTI CULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR 1 985-86 DEPARTMENT OF ARtS, HERITAGE AND

ENVIRONMENT: In attendance, · Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan , Minister for Education, accompanied by the

foll owing . officers: Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment Mr K. Thompson, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr M. Bourke, First Assistant Secretary,

Corporate and Portfolio Support Division Mr B.J. Zanetti, Acting Assistant Secretary, Portfolio Support

Australian Heritage Commission Mr C. Griffiths, Director Mr P. Cheah, Assistant Director, Administration

National Maritime Museum Mr S. Sergi, Director Ms D. Taylor, Head, Resources Management Section

Au stralian National Botanic Gardens Dr R. Boden, Director

De partment of Finance Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Ma nagement and Accounting Policy Division Ms J. Van Der Helde, Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy Div i sion Mr G. Kazs, Chief Finance Officer, Education and Employment Division

92.

Committee continued its consideration of the

proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment.

Division 133 (Document A) was,

reconsidered by the Committee. by leave,

The Acting Chairperson called on the following

Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 148 and 620 (Document A) Division 813 (Document B)

Senator Newman tabled the following documents:

Port Arthur Conservation and Development Project, Tasmanian National Parks and Wildlife Service:

The Port Arthur Project Four Year Program 1986-1990

Senator Reynolds took the Chair.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment, subject to

undertakings to provide additional information to the committee.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR 1985-86 - DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND CONSTRUCTION: In attendance, Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following

officers: D7partment of Housing and Construction Mr K.J. Rodda, OBE, ED, Deputy Secretary Mr -S.J. Palywoda, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Management Mr C.J. Pickett, Acting Assistant Secretary, Horne Ownership Programs Branch Mr W.E.J. Butler, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Finance and Human Resource Budget Mr W.H. Temby, Acting Assistant Secretary, Housing Policy Division

Department of Finance Mr T. WallJ Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division Ms J. Van Der Helde, Senior Finance Officer

Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division Mr G. Kazs, Chief Finance Officer, Education and Employment Division

The Minister made an introductory statement.

The Chairperson called on the following Divisions for , consideration:

Divisions 352-355 (Document A) 93.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Housi ng and Construction, subject to undertakings to provide additional information to the Committee.

5 . PARTI CULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR 1985-86 DEPARTMENT OF SPORT, RECREATION AND TOURISM: In attendance, Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Sport, Recreation and Tourism Mr B. MacDonald, Secretary Mr G. Dempster, First Assistant Secretary, Sport and Recreation Division Mr J. Ferguson, First Assistant Secretary,

Touri sm Division Mr K.J. Nielson, Assistant Secretary, Facilities and Projects Tourism Division Mr J . Lleonart, First Assistant Secretary,

Information Services Division Mr J. Thompson, Government Printer, Australian Government Publishing Service Mr J. Malone, Acting General Manager,

Australian Information Service Mr B. Cornish, Acting Assistant Secretary, Information Co-ordination Branch Mr A. Barden, Director,

Resource Management Section Mr R . Bozen, Estimates Officer, Resource Management Section

Australian Sports Commission Mr G. Hartung, General Manager Mr M. Weeks, Director, Management and Planning Section Mr P. Crosswhite, Secretary,

Sports1 Aid Foundation

Australian Tourist Commission Mr J. Angel, Assistant General Manager, Operations

Australian Institute of Sport Mr R. Hobson, Assistant General Manager, Administration

Department of Finance Mr T . Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Man agement and Accounting Policy Division Ms J . Van Der Helde, Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division Mr G. Kazs, Chief Finance Officer, Education and Employment Division

94.

The Chairperson called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 590-593 (Document A) Divisions 956 and 957 (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

proposed additional expenditure for the Department of .::>port, Recreation and Tourism, subject to

undertakings to provide additional information to the Committee.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR 1985-86 DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS: In attendance, Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Aboriginal Affairs Mr R.G. Humphry, Deputy Secretary Mr G.M. Brownbill, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr W. Gray, First Assistant Secretary,

Heritage Mr A. Koukoulas, Assistant Secretary,

Management Mr D.J. O'Rourke, First Assistant Secretary, Program Development Mr K.C. Martin, Assistant Secretary,

Budget Mr W. Miller, Assistant Secretary, Community Development and Support Mr M. Strokowsky, Assistant Secretary,

Management Operations Mr G. Bissaker, Director, Budget Co-ordination

Aboriginal Development Commission Mr P. McMahon, Assistant General Manager, Administration Mr W. Koller, Assistant General Manager,

Housing Mr M. Stewart, Assistant General Manager, Policy Mr B. O'Keefe, Acting Manager,

Finance Branch

Aboriginal Hostels Limited Mr R.C. Clarke, Company Secretary Mr J. Rooks, Manager, Finance Division

Aboriginal Institute of Aboriginal Studies Mr W. Dix, Principal

95.

Department of Finance Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division Ms J. Van Der Helde, Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy Di v i sion Mr G. Kazs, Chief Finance Officer, Education and Employment Division

The Chairperson called on the following Divisions for cons i deration:

Division 120 (Document A) Division 805 (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

prop osed additional expenditure for the Department of Abor i ginal Affairs, subject to undertakings to

provi de additional .information to the Cornrni ttee.

7. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.56pm.

8. ATTE NDANCE: Senators Michael Baume, Cooney, Morris,

Newm an, Puplick and Reynolds. Senators Brownhill, Kilgariff and Vigor alsb attended.

CONFIRMED:

96.

Margaret Reynolds Chairperson

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

NO 18

Wednesday, 30 April 1986

1. MEETING: The Committee met in deliberative session at

8.32am in Senate Committee Room No 3.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of meetings held on

3.

10 April 1986 (Nos 15 and 16) and 28 April 1986 (No

17) were confirmed.

REPORT OF COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the

Chairperson's draft Report to the Senate.

The Committee resolved that the draft report, as

amended, be agreed to, subject to the inclusion of

items on the manner of responding to questions during hearings and the incidence of RSI and compensation claims in various departments and authorities.

4. AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL MARITIME MUSEUM - VIDEO: The Committee viewed the video prepared for the Museum to use as a

part of its promotional activities, which was the

subject of questioning during the public hearings.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.12am.

6. ATTENDANCE: Senators Michael Baume,

Newman, Puplick and Reynolds.

CERTIFIED CORRECT:

97.

Morris,

Margaret Reynolds Chairperson

' ..

ESTIMATES E

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

Report to the Senate

Estimates Committee E presents its Report to the Senate.

INTRODUCTION

1. On 19 March 1986 the Senate referred to the Committee

Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year ending 30 June 1986 and Particulars of Certain Proposed Addi tiona! Expenditure in Respect of the year ending 30 June

1986. The group of Departments to be considered by the Committee was as follows:

Resources and Energy Attorney-Generals Special Minister of State Foreign Affairs (including the Australian Development Assistance Bureau)

Defence

2. The Committee has considered the Additional Estimates of the Departments together with the Departmental Explanatory Notes, and has received explanations from the Minister for Resources and Energy (Senator the Hon. G.J. Evans Q.C.) and officers of the

Departments. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings appear in

Appendix 2 of this Report. In addition, Hansard reports of the

evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bil.l (No.3) 1986 and Appropriation Bill (No.4) 1986. Written answers to questions taken on notice will be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in

101.

he final Hansard report of the Committee's hearing. Additional papers , other than public documents, tabled during the

Committee 's public hearings are to be incorporated in the

Commi ttee 's Additional Information volume together with certain

additional material from the Budget Estimates hearings in

September 1985, which was received too late for inclusion in the Budget session Additional Information volume.

3 . For the information of Senators, Appendix 1 of this Report

contains a detailed listing of all the issues raised by the

Committee's questions during its t wo days of hearings. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following

particular matters arising from its consideration of the

dditional Estimates.

0 PARTMENT OF THE SPECIAL MINISTER OF STATE

liamentary and Ministerial Staff Overtime

Division 579 relates to Parliamentary and Ministerial Staff and Services. The personnel involved are -

Staff of the Ministers of State Staff of Government Whips and Caucus Secretary Government Caucus Committee Secretariat National Media Liaison Service Ministerial Media Group Staff of Opposition Office-holders and Shadow Ministers Staff of Australian Democrats Staff of Senators not affiliated with a major political Party Electorate Staff of Members and Senators Staff of Former Prime Ministers

The original 1985/86 appropriation for this item was slightly in e xcess of $28 million.

102.

5. Item 0 2 in Sub-division 1 concerns the question of payment

of overtime to what appears to be a sub-set of the above group,

namely -

Staff of the Ministers of State Staff of Opposition Office-holders and Party Whips Electprate Staff of Members and Senators Government Caucus Committee Secretariat National Media Liaison Service Ministerial Media Group

The original 1985/86 appropriation for this item was almost $1.8 million. A further $95,000 is required for the Additional

Estimates. The Departmental Explanatory Notes explained, at page 27, that "the increase sought is primarily due to the increased overtime worked by parliamentary staff and the effect of the 3.8% National Wage Case". During the course of the hearing, the

question was raised as to whether there was any form of control over increasing expenditure on this overtime. An officer of the Department indicated that -

"On the question of overtime, there is currently no

control. It is a matter, though, that has been given

some consideration, but as yet the matter has not been decided by Government". (Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 10 April 1986, page l28)

6. The Committee considers that there is a need to ensure that

when Parliamentary and Ministerial staff are paid for overtime,

that expenditure is justified and accountable. However, the

Committee stresses that a delicate and sensible balance must be struck between any obligation to justify unusual or excessive overtime and the pressing need of parliamentarians to have the maximum reasonable access to their staff and advisers. The

Department of the Special Minister of State may not be best

placed to make final decisions on such a topic where issues of

accountability and parliamentary efficiency interact. The Committee recommends that the consideration currently being given

103.

0 this matter in the Department should proceed to draft

guidelines and procedures which could give all parliamentarians n opportunity to consider the implications of this issue.

Senate Information Systems

7 . The Commi ttee raised with Departmental officers the question

of the pro p osed provision of a basic, self-contained

office-support system in parliamentarians' electorate offices. The Committee noted that Senate· Estimates Committee A has been · nvolved in a detailed examination of the possibility that

quipment can compatibility be with

installed which has A.D.P. technology something less than 100% already in use in the

rliament House offices of Senators and Members.

8 . In its Report to the Senate, October 1985, Estimates

Committee A r eported that -

In

"Senate departmental officers indicated a concern that unless t here was a co-ordinated approach to the supply of equ i pment in Parliament House and electorate

offices , then by the time of the move to the New

Parliame n t House there could be a 'multiplicity' of

systems in electorate offices which could be

incompa t ible with those in Parliament House. Compatibility was essential because the intention was to directly link the two offices through

microcomputers in each". (Pages 11-12)

its examination of the Additional Estimates

P rliamentary Departments, Estimates expected Committee A

for the

has again

levels of pressed different its concern about

systems.(Senate Hansard, compatibility Estimates Cornrni ttee A, 15

pril 1986 , p age 234) The Committee supports Estimates Committee i n its efforts to ensure that the critical requirement of

maximum compatibility is achieved in the interests of personnel and technological efficiency.

104.

9. During the course of its hearings, the Committee heard from

officers of the Department of the Special Minister of State that a specification is being prepared to go to tender for facilities "similar in capacity to" the A.D.P. facilities already in

Parliament House. The Committee acknowledges and applauds the Government's desire to maximise Australian industry participation in the project. However, it seems that 'it cannot be stated often enough and clea:r:ly enough that serious problems will arise if

there is t .han maximum compatibility between the A.D.P.

systems in the two offices from which parliamentarians and their staff organise and prepare their work. The work of a

parliamentarian resists itemisation and categorisation. There are no discrete functions performed by an elected representative which will not tend to overlap with his or her other numerous

functions. Likewise, although of necessity emanating from two apparently discrete offices, the work flowing through

parliamentary and electorate premises intersects and overlaps at so many points that a lack of unity and co-ordination could cause considerable disruption and unnecessarily impede busy

parliamentarians in the discharge of their political and

representative responsibilities.

10. Official witnesses indicated that "the Department is most concerned to ensure that there is a level of compatibility

between that which is in the offices in Parliament House and that which will be put into electorate offices". (Senate Hansard,

Estimates Committee E, 10 April 1986, page 129; emphasis added) However, the Committee draws to the attention of the Senate its concern about the implications for staff training, ancilliary back-up, and the overall functioning and efficiency of

parliamenterians' offices if A.D.P. systems are chosen and

installed 1which are not fully compatible with pre-existing

equipment.

105.

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE

a·re o f Aircraft

11 . Under Di vision 234, Equipment and Stores, Sub-division 1,

Sub-item 01 , provision is made for expenditure on the purchase of new equipment and stores for major projects. In previous years the Committee has particularly examined expenditure on the

recurring h ire, rather than purchase of, aircraft for

target-towing purposes. In its Report to the Senate, October

985 , paragr aphs 17-22, the Committee examined the matter in some d ail and r eported to the Senate on the -

t he need for completion of a proper study of the cost-effectiveness of recurring hire of aircraft for target t owing and other purposes".

In a statement to the Committee the First Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budgets, indicated that the study was not yet

completed b u t would be finalised as soon as possible. (Senate

Hansard , Es timates Committee E, 17 April 1986, page 492) The

Committee n ow looks forward to receiving the study in the context of he 1986 Budget Estimates.

Cost of Devaluation

12 . When examining the Department of Defence, the Committee has long-stand i ng interest in considering the full-year costs of fluctuations in the exchange rate and the devaluation of the

Aus ralian dollar. (See for example, Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E , 18 April 1985, page 214; Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E , 12 September 1985, page 196) During the hearing a

Senator once again pursued a line of questioning which, given the heavy external expenditure commitments of this Department, related to a highly significant aspect of public expenditure. (Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 17 April 1986, page 492)

106.

13. Neither the Departmental Explanatory Notes, nor

supplementary information adequately discussed the impact of this factor and officials attending the hearing were unable to supply sufficient details. Eventually the question was taken on notice as to what was the full effect on additional expenditure, for the whole year, of the devaluation of the Australian currency. A

further question concerning possible savings was also taken on notice, with a Departmental officer undertaking "to provide a reconciliatio.n that really addresses differences in price and exchange before we can talk about a real component". (Senate

Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 17 April 1986, page 493; emphasis added)

14. The Committee considers that this information should be made readily available to it. in supplementary information or

preferably Explanatory Notes. \ in the Departmental The

Committee's concern was summed up by one Senator who commented that -" ••••• last time when we were here, this Committee

expressed a keen interest in the cost of the

devaluation. One could have hoped that the

Department, knowing that, could have had before it an indication of the we are seeking and pursuing.

It is obviously o£ great sigriificance to Parliament to know what the cost is." (Senate Hansard, Estimates

Committee E, 17 April 1986, page 493)

Recruitment to the Army Reserve

15. During the Budget Estimates hearings, the Committee devoted considerable attention to the proposed expenditure of $2.5

million on an advertising campaign to increase recruitment into the Army Reserve. (Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 12

September 1985, page 206) At that time the following figures

were given concerning the size of the Army Reserve -

107.

Date

30 June 1983

30 June 1984

30 June 1985

Strength

33,131 28,920 23,722

No. Efficient

20·, 848

17,870 15,565

Percentage

62.9

61.8 65.6

was stated that "a more gra.dual arid phased approach to get

b ck to the Army Reserve strength of 30,000, is called for".

(Senate Ha n sard, op.·cit, page 206) It was stated that the

D partment employed "consultant media advisers, who have periodic

con racts to undertake advertising associated · with all military cruitment •... for and on behalf of the Defence

(S nate Hansard, op.cit. page 207)

6 . Thus , o n 1 July 1985, a $2.5 million advertising campaign

commenced, c o n s i sting of three phases -

"A campaign aimed at improving retention in the Army Reserve ; a campaign aimed at increasing the degree of employer support for the Army Reserve; and the third phase aimed at actually attracting people into the

Army Reserve. That la:tter phase started in capital

cities on 1 August this year (1985). The campaign

will carry on over the remainder of this mainly

between 1 August and the end of November r and again in t he early part of the New Year (1986) through to the

end ot May." (Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 12 September 1985, page 203)

P r of the c ampaign was based on a survey as to the attitudes

nd feeli ngs of serving members of the Reserve. (Senate Hansard, imates Committee E, 12 September 1985, pages 204 and 207)

7 . The Committee was concerned to learn that, in spite of the

xp ndi ture of public funds on an unusual advertising campaign s·gned to increase numbers, the current figure for Army Reserve s r ngth is n ow 23,175. That is 547 less than the figure at 30

June 1985 . A figure of 26,500,

ov last yea r 's strength figure,

a very modest increase of 2 , 778

was the original ·target for 30

108.

June 1986. Although in fact 4,897 persons were recruited, the

wastage was 5,444, leaving the strength still 547 less than last year and 3,325 short of the original target.

18. During the hearing the Department's officers pointed to

evidence that the previous trend towards a serious rate of

run-down appeared to have had been arrested. · (Senate ·Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 17 April 1986, page 499) However, the

fact remains the significant wastage rate was recognised and the advertising campaign was designed both to reverse the decline and increase overall numbers by almost 3,000 personnel. In other words, taking into account the run-down trend, the real original

target must have been of the order of almost 9, 000 personnel.

The Committee is concerned that in the $2.5 million advertising campaign, which had apparently been tested in the community

(Senate Hansard, op.ci,t. page 499), the Australian public may not have received value for money. Moreover, the Department's prior assessment of the campaign's potential impact has been far from accurate.

19. The Committee, during the Budget reflecting on the reservations it expressed Estimates about the likely success of the

advertising campaign (Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 12 September 1985, page 208), suggests that the Department should conduct a proper review and re-examination of its expenditure and advertising strategy with regard to recruitment to the Army

Reserve. The Committee will look with interest at the results of such a review in its consideration of the Budget Estimates for

1986.

20. The Committee also noted that research has already been

completed by a firm of consultants on officer wastage in the Army Reserve. The Committee has requested access to this research. When available,· it will be· conveyed by the Committee to the

Senate. (Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 17 April 1986, page 500)

109.

ROCEDURAL AND OTHER MATTERS

fin g o f Officials Attending

2 . In its Report to the Senate, May 1985, the Commit tee

comrn nted on the capacity of officials at the hearing to give

n s we rs to questions. The Committee noted that -

"Because of the delay involved it is unfortunate that a significant number of its questions were not answered orally , but were taken on notice for a written reply. The Committee accepts that this is a consequence of

the c omplexity of government and the probing nature of questions asked by Senators. The Committee takes the opportunity, however, to remind Departments of the need t o ensure that officials attending to assist the Minister should as far as possible be briefed to give

adequate oral answers and table explanatory documents t o all but the most detailed of questions. The

Committee is faced with the task of framing questions on t h e basis of complex material and then absorbing

answers which of necessity are often detailed and

complex." (Paragraph 9)

22 . The Comm i ttee accepts that it can sometimes be difficult for

D p r ments to predict · all areas of potential Committee

es i oning and arrange for knowledgeable officers to be present. n e d , it might be useful to Departments and other interested

r liamentarians if Senators who intend to seek oral information_

on particular topics were to give some general. advance notice of he·r areas of interest and specialisation. The Committee

cogn i ses , however, that such a process has clear limitations in h often , in the development of ·a line of questioning,

unexpected matters of expenditure will arise and call for

xploration .

23 . The Estimates Committee does not sit to "catch out" the

n i ster or his officials. Rather it is a link in a chain of

P rliamentary accountability for the passage of the Appropriation ills . By i ndicating areas of interest, Senators can guide the

search e fforts of the Comrni ttee' s own secretariat and also

110 ..

alert Departments to the need to ensure the attendance of well briefed officials. Such a . proposal, however, should not, indeed cannot, be taken too far if Senators at the hearings are to enjoy the ·essential lee-way to explore and probe important issues as

they arise. This is the Senate's mandate to the Committee. Thus, the occasional absence of sufficiently expert officials can

sometimes impede the reasonable development of questioning. The Committee does not, of course, consider that this is other than unintentional. However, the device of taking questions on

notice, while to the Committee and Senators, does not

make it possible for any follow-up examination to occur other than durin.g the Appropriation debate itself when the focus of attention is on matters of particular concern which are worthy of the time and attention of the whole Senate. Of course, the right

is maint.ained for Senators to ask further questions when the

Bills are considered by the Committee of the Whole, but this

stage of the law-making process does not lend itself so readily to the detailed probing and evaluation which the Committee's hearings can generate.

24. From their earliest days, Estimates Committees have voiced concern about insufficiently briefed officials accompanying the Minister. (See for example, Report to the Senate, Estimates

Committee A, October 19-76, which stated "that the Minister should be accompanied by an officer or officers of the most senior

levels of the [Senior Executive Service] who should be able to

give answers of a breadth and responsibility not necessarily

available to officers of lesser levels in the Department.")

During the hearings there were three occasions when the absence of properly briefed o£ficials had the effect of preventing

Senators from developing a series of related questions to satisfy themselves · about the expenditure of public monies. To some

extent, the Committee's examination of the Additional Estimates was thereby hindered. Firstly, under Division 170, Courts and Tribunals Administration, Sub-division 1 - Salaries and Payments in the Nature of Salaries, a official from the

111.

orney- General's Department indicated that policy . questions concerning steps to resolve jurisdictional conflicts between s e and Federal Courts, which. could have the effect of reducing xpenditure under this Division, . had not be.en anticipated and could not be answered orally. The question was· . not a policy

qu stion a nd the Senator concerned lost an important opportunity h re and t hen to develop a line of questioning. (Senate Hansard, s 'mates Committee E, 10 1986, page

25 . Secondly, under Division 233, Adminis.trati ve and Other

xpenditure officials from the Department of Defence were unable o answer a series of question relating to civil proceedings

a ·sing out ot the Voyager tragedy and the decision not to waive

he Statute of Limitations as a defence. One Senator noted with orne frustration that it should have been "of sufficient

compassionate interest for the Department to know . and know now" h answer to certain questions. (Senate Hansard, Estimate

Commi ttee E , 17 April 1986, page .. 507) ..

2 . Thirdly , under Division 318, Australian Development and

ss stance Bureau, Sub-division 9, Emergency Humanitarian Relief nd Other Programs, . no officer was present who could answer a

r · es of detailed quest.ions in relation to the provision of a

rcule s Cl30A aircraft f·or the purposes of the humanitarian

l·ef pro g ram in Ethiopa. Again, the Senator concerned lost an m ortant opportunity there and then to develop questions in the in rest of parliamentary accountability. (Senate Hansard,

Es imates Committee E, 17 April 1986, pages 487-490).

ol·cy Questions and Freedom of Information Principles

2 6 . It i s a traditional practice on Estimates . Commi ttes that

olicy questions be addressed, , not to officials, but · to the

i nister attending on the Committee. , When officers can answer ues ions Senators may "(pursue) a point looking for value for

money , but when (they) go into the relevant policy ••• that is

112.

something that is confined to the Cabinet and the Minister".

(Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 10 April 1986, page 120). It is nevertheless, as this statement implies, proper and

legitimate for Estimates Committees to invite the Minister to answer policy questions. Committees: Proposed In the 1970 document "Senate Estimates

Procedures", the then Leader of the

Government in the Senate stated that "questions which involve the .giving of opinions on matters of policy should be reserved for the Ministers and not directed to departmental officers."

(Emphasis added)

28. The fact that a question may relate to a matter of broad or

specific Government policy does not preclude a Senator from

asking that question, nor does that circumstance alone excuse the from either attempting to answer it or undertaking to

take the question on notice on behalf of the relevant Minister

and obtain an appropriate answer. The Committee was pleased to note the readiness of the Minister, Senator Evans, and also

Senator Grimes, who for a short time was the Minister in

attendence, to do this. (Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 10 April 1986, pages 97 and 113; Senate Hansard, Estimates

Committee E, 17 April 1986, page 490;Senate Hansard op. cit. 517 and 518)

29. The considers, however, that the principles under

which the Government administers the Freedom of Information Act 1982 should not be the test of access to documentary information for a Senate Committee, not only in relation to statements of

policy, but also concerning questions of fact and opinion

relating to the expenditure of public funds. (Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 10 April 1986, page 103) In this context, the Committee noted that certain Department of Defence documents to which a journalist had obtained access, ' on which he reported 4

days before the Commit tee's hearing, and which could have had expenditure implications, were not automatically supplied to the Committee requested by the secretariat for circulation to

113.

he Committee. The documents concerned reports on the

cqui s i tion , by the Army, of certain land and the article

ppeared in the Canberra Times, 13 · April 1986. While a document, o wh i ch Freedom of Information principles were applicable, was released and studied by the Committee, the Committee nevertheless considered that F.O.I. principles provide too narrow a basis on which t o determine whether a Committee of Parliament might have

ccess to documents for the purpose of its functions. This is

p rticularly so when it appears that. a journalist has obtained

ccess to the documents and published accounts of them.

xtra materials provided by Departments

( ) Department of Defence

30 . In its Report to the Senate, October 1985, the Committee

complimented the Department of Defence for its timely submission o ddi t i onal concerning expenditure under Division

2 0 o n Defence Co-operation Programs. The · Department again

rovided the Committee with an additional statement about the ograrn in the same form as previously. This material was

w learn e d and and will be of value, not only to the

Committee, but also the Senate when it is incorporated in the

ommittee's volume of Additional Information.

31 . Also , the Committee is pleased · to report that its

comme ndation to the Department of . Defence concerning major p ejec t details, originally made in the Committee's Report to the Senate , October 1984, was substantially implemented. The

Committee had on that occasion requested that -

" • •.• future tables (under Division 234, Equipment and Stores , Sub-division 1, New--:-£quipment and Stores, Sub-item 01, Major Projects) include an additional column showing the original Project cost (of Major

Equipment Projects). The Committee would then have before it information on the cost escalation for

contracts."

11:4 ..

32. On 9 April 1986, the Department supplied the Committee with expanded details concerning Major Equipment Program Projects. The Committee congratulates the Department on its agreement to supply all of this material and comments only that it would

greatly appreciate earlier receipt of the material if, as will now be likely, it is to be prepared ·on a twice yearly basis for

the Committee.

(b) Department of Foreign Affairs

33. The very prompt supply of detailed additional · information concerning Department of Foreign Affairs expenditure under Division 87 5, Other Services, Item 02, International Year of

Peace Activities, was also much appreciated by the Committee. However, given the timing of its receipt and its commendable

detail, its contents could not be absorbed by the Committee with a view to examining officers about it. Consequently, the

Committee foreshadowed that, where relevant, the information contained in the documents would be explored in more detail in the Committee of the Whole. (Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee E, 17 April 1986, page 485)

34. Once again the 'committee's only comment is that early

receipt of supplementary material which expands on readily

items of great interest, potential controversy or

unusual expenditure, can shorten and sharpen the Commit tee's examination of the Estimates, ensuring that all expenditure of public funds is exposed to proper study and scrutiny by the

Committee.

35. Finally, during the course of the past 6 months, the

Committee's secretariat has received numerous requests for material which is included in the Committee's indexed volume of Additional Information. This document, containing answers to questions on notice and supplementary information supplied to the

Committee is an important resource tool for Senators,

115.

liamentary researchers and librarians, not only prior to the ppropriations debate but throughout the 6 month period between m tes hearings. Its usefulness is a comment on the

f c iveness of the Committee's examination and the Department's

k'll and e fficiency in providing expert written answers.

n · nuity of the Committee's Examinations

6 . The Committee wishes to remind the Minister and officials

ndi ng hearings of the need to examine, well in advance of any h in , the previous proceedings of the Estimates Comrni t tee.

his is neces sary firstly to ensure that the relevant Departments aware of certain recurring themes in the Committee's

i ning and can thus ensure that appropriate officials

nd , prepared to answer questions fully. Secondly, it can

h o ensure that there is consistency between statements made

o he Commi t tee from year to year. The objective has been

umm rised by one Senator .who commented -

"The answers to information we were seeking [on the

Army Reserve ] indicate· to me quite clearly that the departmental officers should be invited before they come here to that it would be

worthwhile for them to read the (proceedings) of the p revi ous Estimates Committee ·hearing. Indeed, we expect that there would be a relationship between the answers they give us now and their other answers or,

alternatively , an explanation as to the divergence. I hink that is reasonable " (Senate Hansard,

Estimates Committee E, 17 April 1986, page 501)

ndance of Other Senators

7 . Senate Standing Orders allow any Senator to attend the

t ee 's public hearings. Such a Senator may ask questions

for immediate answer, or to be taken on notice. However,

3 Committees sometimes meeting simultaneously, it is often

f'cult for a Senator to be present when particular divisions o xpenditure, in which he or she is interested, are called on

o xamination. The opportunity to place questions on notice is

116.

therefore a particularly valuable one for any such Senator wh o wishes to pursue matters of interest relevant to the expenditur e under consideration, as a means of preparing for the

Appropriation debates. Such questions must not be treated by Departments as being any less important or less deserving of ful l and proper answers than other questions emanating from the

Cornmi ttee. (Senate Hansard, Estimates Cornmi ttee E, 17 April

1986, page 512-513)

38. The Committee is pleased to report that six Senators who

were not members of the Committee attended and participated

during its hearings from time to time, and a further two Senators at some stage observed the Committee's proceedings.

Minister and Officials

39. Finally the Committee thanks the Minister, Senator Evans , for his assistance. The Committee also thanks the Departmental officers who attended its hearings and orally answered questions or prepared written answers to questions taken on notice .

Ideally, the skills and patience of the Committee, the Minister and the officers should combine in order to ensure that proposals for the expenditure of public monies are made subject to the

fullest possible scrutiny by, and accountability, to the / Parliament.

Senate Estimates Committee E

117.

Gordon Mcintosh Chairman May 1986

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

INDEX OF ISSUES.

\

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

INDEX OF ISSUES

DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND ENERGY

Thursday, 10 April 1986

Document A

Adrnini strati ve

Savings to offset additional estimates Management of former atomic test sites Compensation for civilians, non-public servants and Aborigines

Health survey of Aborigines Cost of McClelland Royal Commission Status of applications for compensation Cases before the civil courts Legal expenses for FOI case

Inquiry into Taxation of Gold Mining

Bureau of Mineral Resources, Geology and Geophysics

Oil, exploration of indigenous and imported

oil

Export of indigenous oil Oil self-sufficiency Closure of fields, wells or producers Excise payments and revenue Off-shore activity

Cash bidding Balance of payments Oil import policy Estimated Australian crude production

International Energy Agency World oil supply and implications Increased estimates for Continental Margins s u rv e y

* Senate Hansard

121.

82

82-85

84

84-85 85

85-86 861 88

86

86-87

88, 90, 91

88-89 89

89-90, 92-93 90

90, 91-92 91 91 92-93

93 93

93-94 94-95

98

Kakadu Nati onal Park

Pastoral leases and mining tenements World Heritage Listing

Division of National Mapping

Increased estimates for general stores LANDSAT

Austral ian Atomic Energy Commission

Movem ent of spent fuel rods Acquisi tion of a cyclotron Ranger project - water evaporation Yell ow cake stocks

Synroc Rea ctor shut down Accounts for commercial operations

Joint Coal Board

Projections in relation to coal prices and exports "Energy 2000" document Effects on LNG and LPG of low oil prices Appointments to Joint Coal Board.

Document B

Cost of devaluation of the Australian dollar

Increased estimates for NT power station grant Uranium royalties to NT

Financial assistance to small tin producers

International Tin Council and legal liability

122.

95-97

96-97 97

97-98 98-100

100 100

100-101 101

101-103 103

103-104

104

104-105 105

105-106

106

106

106

107

107-108

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

INDEX OF ISSUES

ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT

Thursday, 10 April 1986

Document A

Staff increases

Courts and Tribunals Administration

Guarding of residences of Family Court judges Commonwealth courts building program Jurisdictional conflict between Federal

and State jurisdictions Court management procedures Counsellors in the Family Court Family Court judges Maintenance enforcement and compliance Family Court system

Human Rights Commission Application of the International Convenant on Civil and Political Rights to State electoral laws and

108-109

109

109-111

111

111-112 112

112-113 113-114 114

proportional representation 114-115, 115-116, 117 Inquiry into Queensland electoral system Legal opinion of constitutionality of such

an inquiry Publication of complaints

Constitutional Reform Commission Staffing Commissioners' and advisory committee's remuneration Cost

Constitutional Convention

123.

115

115,117 116

117

117 117

117-118

Thursday, 17 April 1986

Administrative

Transfer of ordinance drafting functions Breakdown of costs of FOI Preparation of extradition papers

Courts and Tribunals Administration

Refunding of stamp duty

Trade Practi ces Comission

514 514 514

514

Pr ohibition Orders by States 515

Publications - business and consumer guidance 515 Adm inistration 515

Com puter hardware purchase 515

Austral ian Institute of Criminology

Computer fraud

Law Ref orm Commission

Class actions

Director of Public Prosecutions

Guidelines for briefing Counsel Payment of Counsel Cost of contempt proceedings

124.

515

515

515 515 515

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

INDEX OF ISSUES

DEPARTMENT OF THE SPECIAL MINISTER OF STATE

Thursday, 10 April 1986

Document A

Austral ian Federal Pol ice

- Airport security - Flow of intelligence - Abolition of State special branches - Police strength - Coastal surveillance - Staffing - OVertime - Redeployment of staff - Increased staffing levels - Commonwealth drug program - Upgrading of the police force

User-pays principle for Police services for private events - Resources review - Austra1ian Bureau of Criminal Intelligence - Computer facilities - National Crime Authority - NSW State Drug Crime Commission - Co-ordination of police forces - Beech King Air testing

- Panamian freighter drug haul - Investigations in respect of foreign nationals - Pal tos case

Parliamentary and Ministerial Staff and Services

- Number of staff and staff movements in

Div. 579.1.01 - Ministerial consultants - New electoral offices

125.

119 120 120 121 121-123 123-134 123 124

124 124-5 125, 127-128

125 125 125-126 126 126 126 126 126-127 127

127 128

128 128 128-129

- Over time - Word processers in electoral offices

ustralian Electoral Commission - Compa rison of costs with Commonwealth El e c t oral Off i c e ·

- Computerisation of Commission - Habita tion reviews - Voting malpractices - Prosec ution of non-voters and costs - Voluntary voting -Additi onal Federal election referendum

cost s

- Scull in by-election costs

oyal Commis sions and Inquiries

- Social Security Conspiracy Case - British Nuclear Tests in Australia - Age Tapes

- Economic Regulation of Domestic Aviation

ational Crime Authority - Legislative changes required - Prosecutions - Salaries of members - Technical staff vacancies -Chairman 's involvement with the Age tapes

inquiry - Chairman's involvement with the NSW State Drug Crime Commission - Workload of NCA

Thursday, 17 April 1986

dminist rative

- Salaries - Inoperative staff - Flag costs

- Political Exchange Program

ust r al ian Federal Pol ice

- Norfolk Island AFP

126.

128 129-130

130 13 0 130' 131 130-131 131, 132

131

131 131-132

132 132 132 132-133

133 133 133 133-134

134

134-135 134-135

515 515 515 515

515

Australian Electoral Commission

-Research and Legislation section - Training programs - AOSL allocation and funding - Scullin by-election - By-election appropriations - Use of computer counting in elections - Prosecution of non-voters - Habitation reviews

Royal Commissions and Inquiries

- Compensation in Social Security

515 515 515 515 515

515-516 516 516

Cons pi racy case 516

- Agent Orange Royal Commission 516

- British Nuclear Tests Royal Commission 516

- Reimbursement of legal costs 516

National Crimes Authority

- Staffing - Cornwall extradition proceedings

127.

516 516

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

INDEX OF ISSUES

DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Thursday, 10 April 1986

Do cument A

Ope ning S t atement

Breakdown of additional estimates Co st of devaluation of the dollar Inter national organi sa ti ons -Emi nent Persons Grdup

Adm inistrat i ve

UN contribution Dipl omatic staffing I ndo-China seminar Australian Studies Centre

UN Disengagement Observer Force, UN Interim Force in Lebanon

Overseas Service

Salary increases, effect of devaluation Foreign Affairs Protective Security Service

Austral ian Secret Intelligence Service

Do cument B

I nterna tional Year of Peace

128-.

136

136,137 136,137 136

137-138 138-139 139 139-140

140

140

140-141

141

142-143

Thursday 17 April 1986

Document B

International Year of Peace Grant to CSIRO for nuclear winter research

Document A

ADAB

PNG private students South Pacific private students Contribution to education in Australia of students from developing countries

Hercules Cl30A provided to Ethiopian r 'elief program Irian Jaya border crossers and the UN High Commissioner for Refugees Contribution to International Committee

of the Red Cross in East Timor

129' ..

485-486

486

486 486-487 487

4 87-4 90

490

490-491

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

INDEX OF ISSUES

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE

Thursday, 17 April 1986

Document A

Opening State ment

Reporting Outsta n ding item from September Estimates 492 492

Cost of devaluation

et increase i n outlay

DF Personnel

Redu ction of staff years Submari ne force Married quarters Minor repairs and maintenance Defence houses Defence Service housing loans Defence Housing Authority Male officer resignations Defence Force Remuneration Tribunal

incr ease Cash payments of remuneration Services reserves Army Reserve recruiting campaign Air Force pilot numbers and wastage Air c rew and aircraft

Civil Personnel

Numbe rs of civilians employed Retrenchments NASA and Cl4l operation out of Richmond Cooperation with other countries Dakota for the Vancouver Expo

Civilians and uniformed service per sonnel in the A.C.T.

.. 130.

492-493

493

493

493-494, 496 494 495 495-496

496

496-497 497

497 498

498-500

498, 499, 500

500, 501-502 500, 502

502

502-503 503-50 4 503, 505 504-505

505

Administrative and Other

Payments to tertiary institutions for research Laser research Rail gun project Jindalee Compensation to Voyager survivors Woomera Village RMC Duntroon and ADFA - increased

maintenance for computer equifment

ADF Personnel

RSI and loss of productivity RSI compensation Retirement/invalidity ratio

and Stores

Mi ne hunter s Submarine program KGB link with Kockums Submarine launch torpedos

Combat system trainer

505 505 506 506

506-507 507-508

508

508

508-509 509

50 9-510 510 510 510 510

510 Electronic warfare system Internal audit Stocktaking DISCON project

510-511, 512 511 511

Contract to supply individual and light support weapons over 12-15 years Use of Australian contractors Aircraft non-project modifications

Project leaders and management Contract preparation Price variations Lihes of responsibility

Former employees employed by material suppliers Slippage provision Standard times for procurement stages Prime equipment cost constraints Feasibility studies Assessment of alternative tenderers

Provision of initial and current estimates Spare parts inventory Equipment repair and disposal

Equi prnent 1 ubri cants Air stores Cost monitoring of repairs and overhauls Unrecovered costs of Commonwealth Aircraft

Corporation and Hawker De Havilland Requirements on Australian suppliers Supply situation for various -i terns

131.

511-512 513 1 514

513, 517 513 513 513 513

513 513 513 513 513

514 514 514 514

514 514 514

514 516 516

Fl8 repairs Price reduction of oil and fuel Wamira project Australian aerospace industry skills

PC9 project Reassessment of rations requirements Army boots

Bathurst-Orange facility

Defence Production

Manufacture of Abbott ammunition Cost and pricing calculations in Government factories Frigate construction

Other Departments

Furniture removal and storage services

132.

517, 518 517-518 518 518 518-519

519 519

517

519

519-520 520

520

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 1

Tuesday, 8 April 1986

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 1.48 pm in Committee Room No. 4. The meeting was called to order.

2. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: Entries were reported in the Journals of the Senate of 26 March 1985, 22 August 1985 and 20 March

ll.aQ. appointing the Committee, and 19 March 1986 referring

to the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for service of the year ending on 30 June 1986 for the following

Departments:

Resources and Energy Attorney-General's Special Minister of State Foreign Affairs (including ADAB) Defence

3. Nominations were called for Chairman. Senator Mcintosh was nominated by Senator Carrick. There · being no other nominations Senator Mcintosh took the Chair.

135.

PARTI CULAR S OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE (1985-86): The Committee resolved to examine the Departmental Estimates in the foll owing order:

Resources and Energy Attorney-General's Special Minister of State Foreign Affairs (including ADAB) Defence

5 . PUBLI CATION OF WRITTEN ANSWERS: On the motion of Senator Blac k it was agreed that the Chairman be to

release written answers provided subsequent to' meetings of the Commi ttee.

ADJOURNMEN T: The meeting was adjourned at 1.57 pm until

11 . 30 am on Thursday 10 April 1986 in the Senate Chamber.

7 . ATTENDANCE :

8 . APOL OGY:

Senator G.D. Mcintosh (Chairman) Senator J.R. Black Senator the Honourable Sir John Carrick Senator D.J. MacGibbon Senator B.C. Teague

Senator T. Aulich

136.

Confirmed:

G.D. Mcintosh Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 2

Thursday, 10 April 1986

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 11.33 am in the Senate Chamber. Senator Mcintosh took the Chair.

2. It was agreed by the Committee that the sitting be suspended

from 12.15 pm to 2.00 pm, from 3.10 prn to 4.15 pm, and from 6.30

prn to 8.00 prn.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 11.35 am.

4. ATTENDANCE: Senator G.D. Mcintosh (Chairman} Senator J.R. Black Senator The Honourable Sir John Carrick Senator MacGibbon

Senator B.C. Teague

5. APOLOGY: Senator T. Aulich

137.

· Confirmed:

G.D. Mcintosh Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 3

Thursday, 10 1986

MEETING : The Committee met at 11.35 am in the Senate

amber . Sena tor Mcintosh took the Chair.

2 . STATE MENT BY CHAIR.: , The Chairman reported the Resolution of

t e Sena te on 19 March 1986, and made a statement relating to

the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Proposed Additional Estimates.

3 . PARTI CULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND ENERGY

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C., Minister for Resources a nd Energy, accompanied by the following officers:

Depar tment of Resources and Energy

Mr B.J. Hill , Deputy Secretary

r G. C. Gorri e, First Assistant Secretary, Coordination and

Management Division r P . Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Coal and Minerals Division r M.R. Holth uyzen, Principal Executive Officer, Minerals No.2

Branch

138.

Mr T. Roberts, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Water and

Development Division Mr L.B. Devin,. Assistant Secretary, Water Programs Branch

Mr A.R. Haydock, Principal Executive Officer, Development Branch

Mr J.C1 Starkey, First Assistant Secretary, Petroleum Division

Mr J. Carlson, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Uranium and

Nuc] ear Division

Mr P. Breslin, Assistant Secretary, Energy Technology and

Assessments Branch l

Mr R. Assistant Secretary, Energy Conservation Branch

l

Mr A.A. Garran, Assistant Secretary, Test Site Management and

Investigations Branch Prof. R.W.R. Rutland, Director, Bureau of Mineral Resources, Geology and Geophysics Dr J.P. Truswell, Assistant Director, Planning and Programs

Branch, Bureau of Mineral Resources, Geology and Geophysics Mr C. Veenstra, Director, Division of National Mapping

Mr M.N. Lawrence, Assistant Secretary, Oil Industry Operations

Branch

Mr N.S. Jennings, Principal Executive Otficer, Uranium Industry

Branch

Australian Atomic Energy Commission

Dr D.G. Wal ker, Chief Executive Officer and Director, Research

Establishment Mr W.H. Ratcliff, Secretary/Manager, Administration

The Pipeline Authority

Mr T.R. Baker, Executive Member

of Finance

Mr H.C. Campbell, Senior Finance Officer

139,

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

onsi dera tion :

Divi s i ons: 525-:- $2,408,000 . (Document A)

942, _943 - $8,880,00.0 _ (Document B)

Divisi ons 5 20, 942 and 943 from the Statement of Savings also men t i oned. The Committee concluded its examination of e Propose d Additional for the Department of

sources and Energy, . subject .tp py the Minister to

r ov ide additi onal inf or rna ti on. '. ( (.

5 . PARTICU LAR S OF PROPOSEQ . ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -TTORNE Y-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT

I attendance : Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C., Minister or Resour ces and Energy Attorney-General,

ccompanied by the following officers:

Attorney-General's Department

r L •• Glare, Deputy Secretary

r T. A. Sherman, Deputy Sect etary . ...,_ • . ·. _: r R. St John , Deputy Secretary

r P. Loof , Fi r st Assistant Secretary, Justice and Admini strative Law Division , _ ·(:

r J. L. carnsew, -Management Division

r J . Greenwe l l , First Assistant Secretary, Business Affai·rs Divisi on r M.A . Cranswi ck, First Assistant Secretary, Community Affairs Division r R.C. Davey , First .

Co-ordi nation .. , , .

r D. C. Edwa rds, First Secret-ary'- .. $peci,al , ects . . . . . ' ' ... ' ' ' .t Division .. ... " ..

140.

Mr

Mr

Mr

Mr

Mr

Mr

P.E. R. C. A. T.

B. J •

B. A. R.V.

Baskett, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Evans, Director, Management Improvement Branch Green, Chief Reporter, Commonwealth Reporting Service Knox, Principal Registrar, Family Court of Australia Frankland, Principal Director, Family Court of Australia Registrar, Administrative Appeals Tribunal

Mr W.J. Coad, Deputy Chairman, Trade Practices Commisstion

Mr D. Keane, Deputy Director, Institute of Family Studies

Mr J.F. Thomspn, Secretary, Human Rights Commission

Mr J. Dickie, Assistant Secretary, Human Rights - Commission

Mr J. 1-lillar, Finance Officer, Institute -of Criminology

Mr P. Walshe, First Assistant Director, Office of the Director

of Public Prosecutions Mrs D. Higgins, Assistant Director, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions Mr G.A. Mowbray, Acting Secretary, Constitutional Reform

Commission Mr R. Krauss, Assistant Director, Finance Section

Department of Finance

Mr H.C. Campbell, Senior Finance Officer

6. The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 165,170,175, 178,180,181,184,186, 187, 191 - (Document A)

818-821 - $338,000 (Document B)

Divisi1 ons 165, 170, 175, 177-179, 187, 818 and 819 from the

statement ·· of · savings ·were also mentioned. The Committee concluded its examination of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Attorney-General's Department, subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information.

141.

7 . From 5 . 5 0 pm to 6.30 pm, in the absence of Senator the

Ho curable G.J. Evans Q.C., Senator the Honourable D.J. Grimes,

i n1ster for Community Services, was the Minister representing

the Attorney-General.

8 . PARTICU LAR S OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DEPARTMENT OF THE SPECAL MINISTER OF STATE

ttendance : Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C., Minister esour ces and Energy, representing the Special Minister of Sta te , accompanied by the following officers:

pepartment of the Special Minister of State

r R . Holdich , Deputy Secretary

r . McCann , First Assistant Secretary, Law Enforcement Policy

Division

/

r G . Quigley , Assistant Secretary, Policy Branch

r H. Logue , First Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary and

General Division r M. H. McKenzie-Orr, Head, Protective Services Co-ordination

Centre r J . Gav in , Senior Assistant Secretary, Operations Unit

r . Watson , Assistant Secretary, ADP Branch

Au s tralian Federal Police

r J . Johnson , QPM, Deputy Commissioner

r s. Gavin , Secretary to the AFP

r J . Irel and , Acting Assistant Secretary, Resources Branch

r D. Dixon , Ch ief Superintendent, Coastal Protection Unit

r L . Claydon , Superintendent, Information Systems and

Scientifi c Services Division

National Crime Authority

Mr D. Lenihan, Chief Executive Officer

Australian Electoral Commission

Mr B. Friend, Assistant Commissioner, Resources Management

Branch

Mr J. Mah

Branch

Mr T. Helling, Assistant Commissioner, Operations Branch

Department of Finance

Mr H.C. Campbell, Senior Finance Officer

9. The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 575, 577, 579-583- $18,365,000 (Document A)

95'3, 955 - $520,000 (Document B)

Divisions 575 to 580 from the Statement of Savings were also mentioned. The Committee concluded its examination of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of the Special Minister of State, subject to undertakings by the

Minister to provide additional information.

143 .

10 . PARTI CULAR S OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 - . DEPARTME NT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS, INCLUDING THE AUSTRALIAN

DEVELOP MENT ASSISTANCE BUREAU

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C., Minister or Resources and Energy representing the Minister for Foreign irs, accompanied by the following officers:

epartment of Foreign Affairs

r F.C. Murray , First Assistant Secretary, Management and Foreign Service Division r J .R. Burgess, Assistant Secretary, Pacific Branch G.R. Bentley, Assistant Secretary, Management and Foreign

Service Division r H.M. Loveday, MBE, Assistant Secretary, and

Cultural Relations Branch r K. I . Gates, Assistant Secretary, North Asia Branch r . J . Dan , Senior Adviser, Economic Organisations Branch r J . W. Sul livan, Acting Assistant Secretary, Peace and

Disarmament Branch r J .A. T1lemann, Acting Assistant Secretary, Nuclear Policy Branch r J . L. t-1ahoney, Acting Chief of Protocol, Protocol Section

H. C. Mot t, Assistant Secretary, International Organisations and Hurnanitarian _Affairs Branch r . R. Allanson, Head, Passports Policy Section R. Goodr ick, Head, !'lultilateral and Humanitarian Legal

Section r G.R.T. Bowker , Head, Mul_tilateral Economic and Section Dr . Clancy, Head, OECD/Energy Section

H. Leece , Executive Officer, Resources Planning and Liaison Unit r G. J . Thom pson, Budget Officer, Finance Section

144,

Australian Development Assistance Bureau

Mr R. Stensholt, Acting Deputy Director, General Policy,

Planning and Management Division Dr H. Ware, Assistant Director General, International

Organisations and Programs Branch Mr W. Oostermeyer, Acting Director General, Community Programs

and Students Branch fvlr A. Blewitt·, Centre Secretary, Australian Centre for

International Agricultural Research Mr G. Brooke, Acting Director, Pacific Islands Section II \ Mr M. Latham, Director, Bilateral Planning Co-ordination Review

Secti,on

Mr F. Wojtaszak, Acting Director, Finance, Accounting and

Management Support Section Mr J. Castrission, Budgets Officer, Finance, Accounting and

Management Support Section.

Department of Finance:

Mr H.C. Senior Finance Officer

11. The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 315-317, 319- $10,314,000 (Document A)

8 7 5 ·- $ l , 7 31 , 0 0 0 (Doc urn en t B )

12. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.36 pm.

145.

13 . ATTENDANCE: Senator Mcintosh (Chairman) and Senators Black, e Honourable Sir John Carrick, MacGibbon and Teague. Senators r c her , Chaney , Durack, Kilgariff . and Walters also attended.

1 • A.POLCGY : Senator Aulich.

146 ..

Confirmed:

G. D. Mcintosh Ch .ai rrnan

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 4

Thursday, 10 April 1986

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 6.32 pm in the Senate, Chamber. Senator Mcintosh took the Chair.

2. · It was agreed by the Committee to release the Department of Defence witnesses until Thursday, 17 April 1986.

3. ADJ OU RNl-'lENT:

4. ATTENDANCE:

5. APOLOGIES:

The Committee adjourned at 6.34 pm.

Senator G. D. Mcintosh Senator J • R. Black Senator The Honourable

Senator T. Aulich Senator D.J. MacGibbon Senator B. C. Teague

147.

(Chairman)

Sir John Carrick

Confirmed:

G. D. Mcintosh

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

I

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 5

Thursday, 17 April 1986

1 . ETING: The Committee met at 8.00pm in the Senate Chamber.

Senator Mcintosh took the Chair.

2 . PARTI CULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DEPARTMENT OF

FOREI GN AFFAIRS

Consideration resumed from 10 April 1986.

In ttendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C., Minister o Resources and Energy representing the Minister for Foreign

ai rs , accompani ed by the following officers:

p rtment of Foreign Affairs:

r T . L. Shand , Assistant Secretary, Peace and Disarmament

Branch J . W. Sullivan , Head, Disormament Section

ustralian Development Assistance Bureau:

r R . Stensholt, Acting Deputy Dire;ct.o,r, General Policy.,

Planning and Management Division Prof . J .R. McWilliam, Director, Australian Centre for

Inter national Agricultural Research I.' •

r R. Hills, Director, U.N. & Commonwealth Programs Section

r W. Ooste rmeyer, Acting Assistant Community .

Program s and Students Branch · r G. Brooke, Acting Director, Pacific -Islands Sectio.n II -

148.

Mr M. Latham, Director, Bilateral Planning Co-ordination Review

Section

Mr F. Wojtaszak, Acting Director Finance, Accounting and

Management Support S.e c ti on Mr J. Castrission, Budgets Officer, Finance, Accounting and

Management Support Section

Department of Finance:

Mr H.C. Campbell, Senior Finance Officer

3. The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 875 - $1,731,000 (Document B)

318 - $10,213,000 (Document A)

Division 318 from the Statement of Savings also

The Committee concluded its examination of the Proposed

Additional Expenditure for the Department of Foreign Affairs, · subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED. ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C., Ministe r for Resources and Energy representing · the Ministsr for accommpanied by the following officers:

Department of Defence:

Mr J. M. Moten, Deputy seer eta ry B

Wg Cdr A. Aldridge, Director (Adminf stration), Defence Academy

Mr R. Andrew, Actirig First Assistant Secretary, Computing·

Services

149.

G. Barl ow , De puty Chief Defence Scientist .. Beveridge, Assistant Secretary, Administrative Services .. Cassells , Director General, Defence Housing g . J . Cross , Director .General, Army Training Facilities

Project (NSW) r L. Davey , Assi stant Secretary, Defence Facilities Program

.anagement Dea n , Principal Executive Officer, Budget and Financial S rvice s, Defen ce Academy

K. Doolan , Director of Naval Plans

r . K. Ellis, Assistant Director, Natural Disasters

Organisation (Policy and Support) R. H. Englund, Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy and Requirements ig P .. A . Evans , Acting Assif;)tant Chief of Defence Force

(Operations) R. B. Finnegan , Fi rst Assistant Secretary, Industrial Jgen D.M.M. Francis, Chief of Material - Army . G. Funnell, Assistant Chief of Defence Force (Policy)

K. A. Gulliver , Director Recuiting

G. J . Han sen, Acting Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning -vy . A. Harris ,· Fi rst Assistant Secretary, Production Development

D. Hawke, Acting Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning -Army

V A. E. Hegge n , Chief of Air Force Material

P . A. Hemsley, Assistant Secretary, Science and Technology Admin i strati on C e I .F. Holmes, Director General, Fleet Maintenance ig B. W. Howard , Director General, Operations and Plans - Army

P. R. Huntley , Acting Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning Air Force . H. Ives , First Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budgets C e P.H. James, Director-General, Service Conditions

· Kargas , Assi stant Secretary, Accounting Policy and 0 era tions

150.

Dr H.K. Mcintosh, First Assistant Secretary, Defence Industrial and 11a te rial Policy Hr J • E. McNahon, :Acting Assistant Secretary, Budget Accounting and Supply (ODP) Ivlr K. Moran, Acting Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning -

Central

Mr M.C. Morrison, First Assistant Secretary, Defence Industry

Development Mr M.L. Murdoch, Director, Logistic Resources Programs

Mr M. J. Murray, Special Adviser, Resources Procur_ ement

Mr P.M. Oldham, Director, Finanqe and General Services

Air Cdre C.J. Prior, Director-General, Operations - Air Force Mr P.K. Acting Assistant Secretary, International Policy

(PCP)

Mr R.W. Taylor, Special Advisor, Production (ODP)

Mr P.G. Terrill, First Assistant Secretary, Commercial Services

Mr L.A. Wallace, Assistant Secretary, Financial Programs

Mr D.A. Whitty, General Manager, Supply Systems Redevelopment

RADM B.L. West, Chief of Naval Material

Mr A.F. Viney, Chief Executive Officer, Financial Programs

Section

Department of Finance:

Mr H.C. Campbell, Senior Finance Officer

5. The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 230, 232-234, 239, 241, 244-$290,651,000 (Document A)

1,51 .

T i ting was suspended from 10.3lpm to 10.46pm.

Di isions 23 3, 240, 245 and 252 from the Statement of Savings

also mentioned. The Committee concluded its examination of re po s ed Additional Expenditure for the Department of nee , subj ect to undertakings by the Minister to provide d itional i nformation.

6 . ADJOURNME NT: The Committee adjourned at 11.28pm.

7 . ATTE NDAN CE: Senator Nc!ntosh (Chairman) and Senators Aulich,

Black , Carrick, MacGibbon and Teague. Senators Michael Baum e , Newman and Vigor also attended.

Confirmed:

G.D. Ncintosh Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 6

Thursday, 17 April 1986

1 • MEETING : The · Committee met i n pr iva t e se s si on at 11 . 2 9prn in

the Senate Chamber. Senator Mcintosh took the Chair.

2. It was agreed by the Committee that additional questions formulated by Senator Vigor in relation to the Attorney-General's Department and the Department of the Special Minister of State be taken on notice and

incorporated in Hansard. The Committee also agreed that Senator Vigor's questions in respect of the Department of Defence be taken on notice and incorporated in Hansard.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The meeting was adjourned at ll.3lpm.

4. ATTENDANCE: Senator G.D. Mcintosh (Chairman) Senator T. Aulich Senator the Honourable Sir John carrick Senator D.J. MacGibbon

153.

5 . APOLOGI ES: Senator J.R. Black

Senator B.C. Teague

154 ..

Conf inned:

G.D. Mcintosh Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 7

Tuesday, 29 April 1986

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 1.50prn in Committee Room No. 7. Senator Mcintosh took the Chair.

2. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: On the motion of Senator Carrick it was agreed that the Chairman's draft report to the Senate be adopted.

3. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: On the motion of Senator Carrick, the minutes of private meetings held on 8 April 1986, 10 April 1986 and 17 April 1986, and the minutes bf the public hearings held on 10 April 1986 and 17 April were

confirmed.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at l.52prn.

5. ATTENDANCE: Senator G.D Mcintosh (Chairman) Senator J.R. Black

6. APOLOGY:

Senator the Honourable Sir John Carrick Senator D.J. MacGibbon Senator B.C. Teague

Senator T. Aulich

155.

Certified Correct:

G. D. Mcintosh

Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

REPORT TO THE SENATE

•'

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee F has the honour to present its Report to the

Senate.

1. On 19 March 1986, the Senate referred to the Committee for

examination and report the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year ending on 30 June 1986 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the Year ending on 30 June 1986 relating to the

following Departments.

Veterans' Affairs Transport Aviation Territories

Local Government and Administrative Services

2. . The Committee has considered the Additional Estimates together with the Departmental Explanatory Notes and has received

evidence from the Minister for Veterans' Affairs (Senator the Honourable A.T. Gietzelt) and officers of the Departments and authorities concerned. Copies of the Minutes df Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are

tabled for the information of the Senate. Further written

I

explanations furnished by Departments will be presented

separately and printed in the Hansard record.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

following matter:

Department of Territories - Division 959, Sub-division 1, Item 01 Purchase of improvements on withdrawn leasers Bowen

Island.

159.

The Committee is concerned at the manner in which the

Department of Territories is handllng the proposed development and management of Bowen Island. In evidence given to the

Committee t he Department indicated that the development would be subject to competing interests and Commonwealth budgetary decisions .

In the ligh "t: of this the Committee believes that the Department s hould review its obligations in relation to the matter and

regrets that the resumption of the lease of _ Bowen Island has

resulted i n legal proceedings.

The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance

given by t he Minister for Veterans' Affairs and the officers of the various departments and authorities who appeared before the Committee .

. 0 . Zakharov)

Chair

160.

May 1986

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 4

THURSDAY, 10 APRIL 1986

1. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee met in private session at

11.34 a.m. in Senate Committee Rooms 1 and 2. The Secretary took the Chair.

2. RESOLUTIONS OF THE SENATE: The Secretary reported the

Resolutions of the Senate of 19 March 1986 relating to the referral of Proposed Additional Expenditure for 1985-86 and of 20 March 1986 relating to a change of membership in the

Committee.

3. ELECTION OF CHAIR: The Secretary called for nominations for the position of Chair. Senator McKiernan proposed Senator Zakharov to be Chair. There being no other nominations, Senator Zakharov was declared elected and took the Chair.

4. ORDER OF DEPARTMENTS: The Committee agreed that the

Departments would be examined in the following order: 1. Department of Veterans' Affairs 2. Department of Transport 3. Department of Aviation

4. Department of Territories 5. Department of Local Government and Administrative Services.

163 .

5 . UBLIC MEE TING: At 11.37 a.m. the Committee met in public

session . Senator Zakharov declared the meeting

reported the Resolutions of the Senate of 19 and 20 March

1986 , a nd made a statement relating to the procedure to be

followe d by the Committee in its examination of the

additi o n a l estimates.

. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS

n Attendance : Senator the Hon. A.T. Gietzelt, Minister for Veterans ' Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Veterans' Affairs -D. Volker, Secretary

r B. Godfrey, First Assistant Secretary, Management

Mr A . Selleck, General Manager, Defence Service Homes

Corporation Mr N . Trabinger, First Assistant Secretary, Treatment Services Dr G . Brooks, Assistant Secretary, Pharmaceutical

Services Air Vice-Marshal Flemming, Memorial

Director, Australian War

Mr J . Cosgrove, Assistant Director, Resources Management,

Australian War Memorial Dr C . Davidson, Medical Services Adviser Mr J . Muir, First Assistant Secretary, Benefits Department of Finance -

Mr T .S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer

Sen tor Zakharov called on the following Divisions for

consideration: Divisions 690-694 (Document A) Divisions 984-987 (Document B)

16.4.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Veterans'

Affairs, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. A.T. Gietzelt, Minister for Veterans' Affairs accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Transport -Mr P.J. Merner, First Assistant Secretary, Management and

Co-ordination Division Mr P. Eccles, First Assistant Secretary, Maritime Safety

Division Mr J. Moll, Assistant Director, Bureau of Transport

Economics Mr T.R. Munyard, Assistant Secretary, Finance and

Services, Management and Co-ordination Division Mr G.E. Bowen, Senior Assistant Secretary, Commercial

Branch, International Shipping Policy Division Mr P. Makeham, Senior Assistant Secretary,

Transport Branch, Road Safety Division Motor

Mr I. Rischbieth, Assistant Secretary, Coastal Shipping

Branch, Domestic Shipping Policy Division Mr C.N. Thorpe, Assistant Secretary, Shipping Industry

Branch, Domestic Shipping Policy Division Mr B. Cox, Assistant Secretary, Roads 'A' Branch, Roads

Division Ms F. Holthuyzen, Acting Assistant Secretary, Rail

Branch, Land Transport Policy Division Mr D .R. Green, Assistant General Manager, Technical

Services, Australian National Railways Commission Mr F. Keith, Secretary, Inter-State Commission

Mr 0. Rodda, Director, Administration, Inter-State

Commission

165.

Mr J . Walker, Director, Programs and Budgets, Finance and

Services Ms J . Trevithick, Director, Information Management Branch

De partment of Finance

Mr T.S . Wilson, Senior Finance Officer

Senator Zakharov called on the following Divisions for

c onsideration: Divisions 664-667 Divisions 972-973 (Document . B)

The Comrni ttee concluded its considerations of the Proposed

dditional Expenditure for the

subject to an undertaking ·by

Department of Transport, the Minister to provide

addi t i onal information to the Committee.

8 . PAR TICULAR S OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DEPARTME NT OF AVIATION

n Attendance: Senator , the · Hon. A. T. · Gietzel t ., Minister for

Ve terans ' Affairs accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Aviation

Mr T. Grant, Acting First··. Secretary, Resources

Division Mr M. Mayoh, Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch,

Resources Division Mr G. Broomfield; · Acting Assist-ant Secretary, Manpower

Branch , . Resources Mr A. Straube, . Budge-t :Off ice·r , •''·. Bird get Section, Finance

Branch , Resources Division Mr G. 0' H·alloran ,, , .:. Director. , Resource Planning and

Co-ordination Unit, \ .. Ai.rports Division , : Mr J. Management

Branch Ms c. Goode, First Assistant Secretary, Management

Services Division

Mr P. Bowen, First Assistant Secretary, Domestic Policy

Division Mr B. Raath, Acting Director, Public Relations Branch

Mr C. Stevens, Acting Administrative Officer, Public

Relations Branch Mr G. O'Day, First Assistant Secretary, Standards

Division Mr G. Mansfield, Assistant Secretary, Information Branch,

Legal and. Information Division Mr H. O'Keefe, First Assistant Secretary, Airways

Division Mr J. Richardson, Assistant Secretary, Air Traffic

Services ·Branch; Airways Division Mr P. Choquenot, Director, Bureau of Air Safety

Investigation Mr N. Potter, Assistant Secretary, International

Organisations and Economic Branch, International Policy Division Department of Financ-e -Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer

Senator Zakharov called on the following Divisions for

consideration: - Division 193 (Document A)

Divisions 826-828 (Document B)

The Department of Aviation tabled the following document: Aviation Infrastructure Cost Recovery Implementation Plan 1986/87 and Report of Consultations between the

Department of Aviat-ion and the Aviation Industry.

The Committ:ee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure. for the Department of Aviation, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional

information to the Committee.

167.

9 . PARTIC ULAR S OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -DE PARTMENT OF TERRITORIES

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. A.T. Gietzelt, Minister for veterans' Affairs accompanied by the following offiders:

Department of Territories -Mr J .A. Turner, Deputy Secretary, Australian Capital

Territory Operations Ms L . M. Webb, First Assistant Secretary,

Services

Community

Mr B.G. Dockrill, First Assistant . Secretary, Transport

and Works Mr N.J. Morgan, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Australian Capital Territory Self-government Mr N. J . Quinn, First Assistant Sec!etary,

Territories

External

Mr R . G. Gallagher, First Assistant Secretary, Management

Services Mr A.R . Hedley, First Assistant Secretary, Legislation

and Regulation Mr G. J. Fraser, First Assistant Secretary, Finance

Mr W. M.G. Kerr, Fire Commissioner, Australian Capital Territory Fire Br1gade Mr V .R . Martis ius, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Development

Mr P . Kearns, Assistant Secretary, Education

Mr P .R. Tinson, Director, Commercial Policy

Mr W. D. Tyrrell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Operations Parliament House Construction Authority:

Budget 1

Mr J . L . Maher, Assistant Secretary, Business Management

Mr J .D . Fowler, Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination

Australian Capital Territory Health Authority: Mr J. Bissett, General Manager

Mr J . Peck, Deputy General Manager, Community Health

Services

Mr A. Hicks, Deputy General Manager, Hospital Services

Mr I. Todd, Acting Assistant General Manager, Resource

Management National Capital Development Commission: Mr P. Leonard, Actihg Secretary and Manager

Mr N.E. Hart; Acting Assistant Secretary, Program

Management Australian Capital Territory Schools Authority: Dr G.A. Hancock, Chief Education Officer Dr A.W. Butterfield, Director, Resources

Miss T. Reilly, Principal Executive Officer, Finance Department of Finance -Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer

Senator Zakharov called on the

consideration:

following Divisons

Divisions 270-272, 329, 352, 620-628 (Document A) Divisions 881, 921, 959-969 (Document B)

for

The Department of Territories tabled the following document: Information prepared by the Department of Territories in response to Senator Reid's Questions of 18 March 1986.

And Division 621 having been completed by the Committee -

10. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.24 p.m.

11 . ATTENDANCE: present : The following members of the Committee were

Senator Zakharov (Chair), Senators Foreman, McKiernan, Reid , Townley and Vanstone.

Senators Hamer, Kilgariff, Lewis, Messner, Vigor and

Walter s also participated in the Committee's proceedings.

170.

(A.O. ZAKHAROV) Chair

1.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 5

MONDAY, 28 APRIL 1986

PUBLIC MEETING: The Committee met in

2.32 p.m. in Senate Committee Rooms

Zakharov took the Chair.

public session at

1 and 2. Senator

2. The Committee resumed consideration from 10 April 1986 of

the Department of Territories.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86 DEPARTMENT OF TERRITORIES

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. A.T. Gietzelt, Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Territories -Mr J A. Turner

Deputy Secretary ACT Operations

Mr B.G. Dockrill

First Assistant Secretary Transport and Works

171.

Mr N.J. Morgan

A/g First Assistant Secretary

ACT Self Government

Mr J. Ashe

Assistant Secretary Northern Territory _and Norfolk Island

Mr R.G. Gallagher

First Assistant Secretary Management Services

Mr A.R. Hedley

First Assistant Secretary Legislation and -Regulation

Mr V. Martisius

First Assistant Secretary Development

Mr G.J. Fraser

First Assistant Secretary Finance

Mr W.O. Tyrrell

A/g Assistant Secretary Budget Operations . ·

Mr P.R. Tinson

Director Comme rcia-l · P6ll.cy

172.

:

•'.

Parliament House Construction Authority

Mr G.R. Peatey

Chief Executive

Mr J.L. Maher

Assistant Secretary Business Management

Mr J.D.

Assistant Secretary Co-ordination

National Capital Development Commission

Mr A.C. Phillips

A/g Secretary and Manager

Mr B.M. Browning

A/g Associate Commissioner

Department of Finance -Mr T.S. Wilson

Senior Officer

Consideration resumed on the following Divisions: Divisions 270-272, 329, 352, 620-628 (Document A) Divisions 881, 959-969 (Document B)

The Department of Territories tabled the following

Answers to Senator Vigor's Questions provided to the

Department on 11 1986.

· 173.

Th e Comrni t tee concluded its consideration of ( the Proposed dditional Expenditure for the Department of Territories, s ubject t o an undertaking by the Minister to provide

a dditional information to the Committee.

PARTICU LAR S OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1985-86

DEPAR TMENT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES

Attendance: Senator the Hon. A.T. Gietzelt, Minister for Veterans ' Affairs accompanied by the following officers:

Departme nt Services -of

1r A. R . Palmer

Local

Deputy Secretary

Mrs P . Morris

Director of Property

Mr G. Cotsell

Government

A/g Senior Assistant Secretary Overseas Property Office Property Directorate

Mr B. E . Hinchcliffe

First Assistant Secretary Transport and Storage Division

Mr M. Gallagher

First Assistant Secretary

and

Local Government and Regional Development

174.

Administrative

Mr J. Stewart

A/g First Assistant Secretary Management Division

Mr E. McLean

Assistant Director Australian Protective Services

Mr S. Wenger·

Assistant Secretary General and Personnel Services Branch Management Division

Mr M. Wood

Assistant Secretary Finance Branch Management Division

Mr R. Divett

A/g First Assistant Secretary Property Operations Division

Mr R. Painter

Executive Officer Review and Disposals Property Directorate

Department of Finance -Mr T . S. Wilson

Senior Finance Officer ·

Senator Zakharov called on the following Division s f or

c o nsideration:

Divisions 400-402 (Document A) Division 921 (Document B)

175.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Local a nd Administrative Services subject to an undertaking by the

Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

5 . COMMI TTEE 'S REPORT: The Committee met in private session at

5 . 08 p . m. to consider it's report to the Senate. The

Committee agreed that the question of the development of

Bowen I sland (Deparrntent of Territories) should be noted.

JOUR Nl1EN T: The Committee adjourned at 5.11 p.m.

7 . ATTEND ANCE :

present : The following members of the Committee were Senator Zakharov (Chair) 1 Senators Foreman 1 McKiernan, Reid and Vanstone.

Se nators Lewis and Vigor also participated in the Committee's p roceedings.

176.

(A.O. Zakharov) Chair