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Estimates - Senate Committees - Reports - Together with Hansard record of proceedings - Committees A, B, C, D, E and F on Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for year - 1979-80


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The Parliament of the , Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COM.MITTEES A, 8, C, D, E and F

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Estimates for year 1979-80 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for year 1978-79

October 1979

Brought up and ordered to be printed 10 October 19 79

Parliamentary Paper No. 221/1979

Parliamentary Paper No. 221 I 1979

The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, E and F

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Estimates for year 1979-80 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for year 1978-79

October 1979

The Commmonwealth Government Printer Canberra 1980

@ Commonwealth of Australia 1980

Printed by Authority by the Commonwealth Government Printer, Canberra 1980

CONTENTS

1. Resolutions of the Senate

2. Estimates Committee A Report . . . .

Minutes of Proceedings 1979 18 September 1979 24 September 1979 3. Estimates Committee B

Report . . . . .

Minutes of Proceedings 1979 18 September 1979 21 September 1979 25 September 1979 2 7 September 1979

9 October 1979

4. Estimates Committee C Report . . . .

Minutes of Proceedings 1979 18 September 1979 24 September 1979 10 October 1979 5. Estimates Committee D

Report . . . .

Minutes of Proceedings 1979 20 September 1979 21 September 1979 25 September 1979 27 September 1979 6. Estimates Committee E

Report . . . . .

Minutes of Proceedings 1979 20 September 1979 21 September 1979 9 October 1979 7. Estimates Committee F

Report . . . .

Minutes of Proceedings 1979 24 May 1979 18 September 1979 20 September 1979 24 September 1979

10 October 1979

Page 3

7

13 16

23

29 31 33 35 37

41

45 48 53

57

63 67 71 72

75

79 83 86

89

93 94 95 99 102

RESOLUTIONS OF THE SENATE

RESOLUTION PASSED ON 11 SEPTEMBER 1979

16 ESTIMATES COMMITTEES-REFERENCE OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDI­ TURE UNDER ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978-79: The Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Carrick), by leave, moved-

( 1) That the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1980 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1980 be referred herewith to Esti­ mates Committees for examination and report.

(2) That, pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate of 16 November 1978, depart­ mental expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Year Ended 30 June 1979 be referred herewith to Estimates Committees for examination and report prior to its consideration in Committee of the Whole.

( 3) That the Committees consider the proposed expenditure for 1979- 80 , and expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79, in re­ lation to Departments, as follows:

Estimates Committee A Parliament* Education* Prime Minister and Cabinet* Treasury*

Foreign Affairs*

Estimates Committee B Attorney-General's * Trade and Resources* lnd us trial Relations*

Employment and Youth Affairs* Special Trade Representative

Estimates Committee C Social Security* Finance* Health*

Immigration and Ethnic Affairs* Veterans' Affairs

Estimates Committee D Science and the Environment* Primary Industry* Home Affairs*

Capital Territory* Housing and Construction

Estimates Committee E Aboriginal Affairs* Industry and Commerce Transport* Administrative Services*

Productivity*

3

Estimates Committee F Defence* National Development* Business and Consumer Affairs* Postal and Telecommunications * Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79 to be

considered. ( 4) That the Committees report to the Senate on or before 10 October 1979. Question-put and passed.

RESOLUTION PASSED ON 13 SEPTEMBER 1979

ESTIMATES COMMITTEES-CHANGES IN MEMBERSHIP: The President informed the Senate that he had received a letter from the Leader ofthe Government in the Senate (Senator Carrick) advising that Senator Thomas had requested that he be discharged from further attendance on Estimates Committee F, and nominating Senator Withers to be a member of the Committee.

He further informed the Senate that he had also received a letter from the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate (Senator Wriedt) advising that Senator McLaren had requested that he be discharged from further attendance on Estimates Committee A and that Senator Sibraa had requested that he be discharged from further attendance on Estimates Committee F, and nominating Senator Sibraa to be a member of Esti­

mates Committee A and Senator McAuliffe to be a member of Estimates Committee F.

The Minister for Science and the Environment (Senator Webster), by leave, moved-( 1) That the following Senators be discharged from further attendance on the Committees indicated-

Estimates Committee A-Senator McLaren Estimates Committee F-Senators Sibraa and Thomas (2) That the following Senators, having been duly nominated in accordance with

Standing Order 36AB, be appointed members of the Committees indicated­ Estimates Committee A-Senator Sibraa Estimates Committee F-

Senators McAuliffe and Withers. Question-put and passed.

4

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTil\1ATES COMMITTEE A

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee A has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 11 September 1979, the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates

for 1979-80 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1979, relating to the following Departments: Parliament Education

Prime Minister and Cabinet Treasury Foreign Affairs

2. The Committee considered the Estimates and the Advance to the Minister for Finance and received explanations from the President of the Senate (in relation to the Parliamentary Departments), the Minister for Education and officers of the Depart­ ments. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the Senate's consideration of Appropriation Bill (No. l) 1979-80 and Appropriation Bill (No.2) 1979-80.

3. Written replies to questions are awaited and, upon receipt, will be distributed to members of the Committee and, where appropriate, to other Senators who par­ ticipated in the Committee's examination. The replies will also be incorporated in the Committee Hansard.

4. The Committee wishes to draw attention to the following matters:

(a) Parliament's Appropriations and Staffing The Committee, in its May 1978 Report, commented that ' ... the appropri­ ation for Parliament is not an ordinary annual service of the Government. Parliament is a separate arm of Government to which the Executive is ac­ countable, and it must be master of its own affairs'.

The Committee further suggested that ' . .. the time is long overdue for the appropriation for Parliament to be excluded from the non-amendable Ap­ propriation Bill for the ordinary annual services of the Government, and in­ cluded in a Special Appropriation Bill which is subject to Senate

amendment'. During our Budget hearings in October 1978 , the Committee ' ... noted that the Presiding Officers are currently making strenuous efforts to give the legislature, particularly the Presiding Officers and private members, greater control over the expenditure of the Parliament'.

Our recent hearings have shown that the situation remains ba sically unchanged. Any Parliament which claims, or aspires to, accountability of an Executive Government to the Parliament, must make such arrangements for its own re­ so urces and facilities as are necessary to achieve this constitutional relation­ ship, in practice as well as in theory.

The Committee has previously stated (November 1978 Report) that the Senate must assist its Presi dent in his (and the Speaker's) efforts to achieve greater control over the expenditure and sta ffing of the Parliament and that . the matter should perhaps be referred to the Senate House Committee.

7

It is therefore opportune to remind the Senate of the Resolution which was agreed to by its House Committee in May 1972. It states, in part, that: 'the proper course is that the appropriation by Parliament for such staff and other fa­ cilities for the Senate, its members and office bearers, should be administered by the

President acting, where necessary, with the advice of the Senate House Committee and subject to any direction of the Senate; and that insofar as it may be convenient for such staff and facilities to be provided by Departments or Branches of the Execu­ tive Government, such agencies should act purely as service agencies on the auth­ ority of and in accordance with arrangements made with the President'.

(b) Funding of V.I.P. Flights During the Committee's examination of the Estimates for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, we sought information concerning the basis of the estimate for the conveyance of the Governor-General, Ministers of State and others by R.A.A.F. Aircraft (Division 504, item 0 I).

The Committee was told that the estimate was ' ... prepared by the De­ partment of Defence on the basis of the Treasury cost formula together with airport charges, aircraft cleaning costs, rations, crew accommodation, meals and telephones with an allowance for hours flown as an integral part of the R.A.A.F.' (Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet Explanatory Notes, p. 28 ). In addition, the estimate for this current financial year is based on the same flying hour rates as applied in I978-79, but reflects a 10 per cent

reduction in flying hours and a corresponding reduction in support services. The Committee, in considering this year's estimate, noted that the Budget estimates and actual expenditure for recent financial years were as follows:

Financial Year Budget Estimate Actual Expenditure

$ $

I977- 78 I 443 000 I 766 85I

I978-79 I 588 000 2 318 539

I979-80 2 06I 000

We also noted that the following amounts were drawn from the Advance to the Minister for Finance in order to meet actual expenditure:

30 June I977 $I78 490

30June I978 $6I 85I

30 June 1979 $308 539

The Committee appreciates the difficulties and inherent inaccuracies in es­ timating for this type of Government expenditure and is aware of, and en­ dorses, the general principle that estimates should be based on past experi­ ence. But, in this particular instance, little heed seems to have been paid to past experience. At each of the last three Budget hearings, the Committee has

been told that the decrease in the estimate against the expenditure o f the pre­ vious year reflected an expected reduction in Y.I.P. flyin g ho urs. On each occasion expenditure has considera bly exceeded the estim a te , even a fter th e opportunity for a second assessment which is provided by the Additio nal Es­ timates. This has then led to funds being drawn from the Advance to th e Min­ ister for Finance.

This Committee has previously reported ( May 197 8 ) on circum sta nces where the use of the Advance to the Minister for Fina nce was . a t bes t, ve ry doubtful. But in the situation described above, the extent o f the usc o f th e Ad­ vance is more attributable to consistently low estim a te s rather th a n urge nt and unforeseen expenditure.

8

The Committee will be interested to see the actual expenditure figure for the financial year 1979-80.

(c) Allowance for upkeep of Governor-General's Establishments The Committee noted that an allowance is made to the Governor-General for the upkeep of Government House and Admiralty House. The allowance includes provision for food and running costs, wages of domestic staff, andre­

pairs, maintenance and replacements and additions to the contents where in­ dividual costs do not exceed $1000. The allowance for this financial year is $572 500. The Committee questions whether the allowance is properly part of the es­

timates for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. The Depart­ ment pays the allowance, which is adjusted at approximately three-yearly in­ tervals, to the Governor-General by quarterly payments. How the allowance is spent is not known to the Department, but since 1953, at the request of the Governor-General, the Auditor-General has undertaken a regulatory-type

audit of the accounts relating to expenditure fmm the allowance. The objec­ tive of the regulatory audits is to establish compliance with applicable laws and the adequacy of record-keeping practices. The Committee thus finds itself in the position of having the responsibility, on behalf of the Senate, to examine an allowance to the Governor-General as

part of the estimates for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, and yet we are unable, through lack of detailed information concerning expenditure, to apply to the allowance the usual tests of Senate Estimates Committees which are appropriate to Government estimates and expenditure.

In the future, consideration could be given to removing the allowance from the Appropriation Bill and to include it in the provisions of the Governor­ General Act 1974 which, amongst other matters, provides for the payment of the salary of the Governor-General directly out of the Consolidated Revenue

Fund. At this stage, however, the Committee is awaiting a response from the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet prior to giving further con­ sideration to any action which may be necessary.

5. The Committee records its appreciation of the explanations provided by the President of the Senate, the Minister for Education and the officers of the various De­ partments who assisted during the examination.

9 October 1979

9

K. J. MARTIN Chairman

II

EstiiDates CoiDrnittee A Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.14

TUESDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.35 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin)

took the Chair.

2. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Resolution of the Senate of 11 September 1979 relating to the reference to the Committee of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1979-80 and of expenditure under the Advance to the Minis­ ter for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1979 was reported.

3. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman stated that, pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate on 11 September 1979, the Committee would consider the following departmental estimates:

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 6-9 101-109 Parliament 17 602 000

B 6 800 Parliament 81 000

A 44- 50 270-282 Education 444 973 000

B lO-ll 835-837 Education 20 847 000

A 99-103 500-516 Prime Minister and Cabinet 52 343 000

B 21 915 Prime Minister and Cabinet 573 000

A 125-128 670-678 Treasury 272 026 000

B 25-26 963-970 Treasury 341 429 000

A 58-64 315-319 Foreign Affairs 572 957 000

B 13 851-853 Foreign Affairs 328 000

* Document A-' Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1980 '. * Document B-' Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1980'.

and expenditure under the Adva nce to the Minister for Finance:

Page in Division

Document* No. Department Amount

$

4 101 Senate 53 929

4 103 Parliamentary Reporting Staff 76 945

4 104 Parliamentary Library II 802

7- 8 270- 280 Education I 173 429

13 835 Education 14 621

lO - ll 500- 515 Prime Minister and Cabinet 366 455

12 670 - 672 Treasury 307 724

8- 9 315 -3 18 Foreign Affairs 4 869 889

* Document-' Advance to the Minister for Finance- Sta tement of Heads of Expenditure and the a mounts ch arged thereto, pursuant to sectio n 36A of the Audit Act 190 I , for the Year Ended 30 June 1979 '.

13

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPENDI­ TURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE FOR THE YEAR ENDED 30 JUNE 1979-PARLIAMENT:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable Sir Condor Laucke, President of the Senate, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of the Senate Mr R. E. Bullock, Clerk of the Senate Mr A. R. Cumming Thorn, First Clerk Assistant Mr T. H. G . Wharton, Usher of the Black Rod Mr M. W. H. Rosser, Senior Parliamentary Officer (Interparliamentary

Union) Mr G. M. Nankervis, Senior Parliamentary Officer (Administration) Parliamentary Reporting Staff Mr J. F. Kerr, Principal Parliamentary Reporter

Mr F. W. Temperly, Administrative Officer Library Mr H. Weir, Parliamentary Librarian Mr M. J. Bray, Senior Executive Officer

Mr H. Knight, Finance Officer Mr H. MacLean, Deputy Parliamentary Librarian Mr G. Cooper, Technical Parliamentary Librarian

Joint House Department Mr R. L. Burrell, Acting Secretary Mr F. W. Bradley, Acting Chief Executive Officer Mr M. J. Tal berg, Secretary, Public Accounts Committee Department of Finance

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr G . Mcintosh, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions I 0 I - 109- Parliament (Document A) Division 800 - Parliament (Document B) Divisions I 0 I- I 04-Parliament (Advance to the Minister for Finance)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure and expen­ diture under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Parliament. 5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979 - 80 AND EXPENDI­ TURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE FOR THE

YEAR ENDED 30 JUNE I979- DEPARTMENTOF EDUCATION:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac­ companied by the following officers: Mr D . M. Morrison, Deputy Secretary Mr H. E. Hughes, First Assistant Secretary, Special Programs Division

Mr P. Bowler, Director, Australian Capital Territory Further Educa tio n Mr R.N. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Departmental Services Branch Mr E. S. Rolfe, Acting Assistant Secretary, Student Assistance Division Mr P. B. Kearns, Acting Assistant Secretary, Educa tion Pl anning GnlUp Mr W. Bowron, Acting Assistant Secretary, Tertiary Student s Assistance

Branch

14

Mr J. Morey, Acting Assistant Secretary, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch Mr R. Richards, Assistant Director, Office of Australian Capital Territory Further Education Tertiary Education Commission

Mr L. Hennessy, First Assistant Commissioner Mr R. Pratley, Director, Management Services Schools Commission Mr I. Hossack, Secretary

Mr D. Marsh, Director, Management Services Commonwealth Teaching Service Mr M. J. Woodward, Secretary Mr K. Glover, Executive Officer Curriculum Development Centre

Mr D. J. Francis, Deputy Director Mr P. C. Maher, Assistant Director, Administrative Services Australian Capital Territory Schools Authority Dr J. Grant, Director, Curriculum Branch

Mr B. Hutchinson, Director, Facilities Branch Department of Finance Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr G. Mcintosh, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 2 70-2 71-Department of Education (Document A) Division 870-Department ofEducation (Advance to the Minister for Finance) The Committee concluded its consideration of Division 2 70 and commenced its consideration of Division 271.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.02 p.m. 7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Colston, Davidson, Knight, Martin, Sibraa and Wriedt ( 6 ). Senators Button, Puplick, Robertson and Watson also took part in the Committee's proceedings.

15

K. J. MARTIN Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 15

MONDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER 1979

I. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.00 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPENDI­ TURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE FOR THE YEAR ENDED 30 JUNE 1979-DEPARTMENTOF EDUCATION:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac­ companied by the following officers:

Mr D. M. Morrison, Deputy Secretary Mr H. E. Hughes, First Assistant Secretary, Special Programs Division Mr P. Bowler, Director, Australian Capital Territory Further Education Mr R .N. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Departmental Services Branch Mr E. S. Rolfe, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Student Assistance Division Mr W. Bowron, Acting Assistant Secretary, Tertiary Student Assistance

Branch Mr J. Morey, Acting Assistant Secretary, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch Mr R. Richards, Assistant Director, Office of Australian Capital Territory

Further Education Mr P. Dowling, Administrative Officer

Tertiary Education Commission Mr R. Pratley, Director, Management Services

Schools Commission Mr I. Hossack, Secretary Mr D. Marsh, Director, Management Services

Commonwealth Teaching Services Mr M. J. Woodward, Secretary Mr K. Glover, Executive Officer

Curriculum Development Centre Mr D. J. Francis, Deputy Director Mr P. C. Maher, Assistant Director, Administrative Services

Au stra lian Capital Territory Schools Authority Dr J. Grant, Directo r, Curriculum Branch Mr B. Hutchinson, Director, Facilities Branch

Departm ent of Finance Mr J. Wojtasza k, Acting Senior Fina nce Offi ce r, Accounting and Supply Divisio n The Chairman ca ll ed on th e fo ll owing Divisio ns for consideration:

Divisio ns 2 7 1- 282 - Department of Educatio n ( Document A ) Divisions 835 - 837-Department of Education ( Docum ent B)

16

Divisions 270-280 and 835 - Department of Education (Advance to the Minister for Finance) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure and expen­ diture under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of

Education.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE FOR THE YEAR ENDED 30 JUNE 1979-DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac­ companied by the following officers: Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet Mr L. R. Pyke, First Assistant Secretary, Operations Division

Mr J . G. Hinton, Assistant Secretary, Services Branch Mr A. J . Mann, Principal Executive Officer Office of National Assessments Mr N . Mcinnes, Deputy Director-General

Mr B. Cowman, Executive Officer Mr G . 0 'Hare, Administrative Officer Australian Science and Technology Council Dr R. M. Green, Secretary

Dr E. N. Cain, Principal Project Officer Auditor-General's Office Mr A. A. Taylor, First Assistant Auditor-General, Division C Mr J. G . Cosgrove, Assistant Auditor-General, Co-ordination Branch ,

Efficiency Audit Division Mr D. W . Burdett, Assistant Auditor-General, Division D Mr H. E. Korte, Assistant Auditor-General, Data Processing Branch, Division c

Mr J. E. McMahon, Acting Assistant Auditor-General, Policy Planning and Management Branch, Division C Mr B. H. Farrow, Controller, Management Section, Policy Planning and Management Branch, Division C Mr J. R. Riding-Hill , Chief Executive Officer, Policy Section, Policy Planning

and Management Branch, Division C Mr F. P. Campbell, Executive Officer, Finance and Services Management Sec­ tion, Division C Mr V. R. Mark wart, Fina nce Officer, Manage ment Section, Division C

Office of Commonwealth Ombudsman Mr C. Hunt, Acting Deputy Ombudsma n Mr P. Gamp, Administrative Officer

Public Service Board Mr R.N . McLeod, Secretary Mr R. G. Harvey, Assistant Commissioner, Ma nagement Bra nch Mr R. C. Harris, Assistant Director, Finance and Accounts Mr R. J. McN ally, Assistant Director, Ma ndata Progra m Office

Department of Finance Mr J. Wojtaszak, Acting Senior Fina nce Offi ce r, Accounting and Supply Division

17

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 500-516-Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (Document A) Division 915-Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (Document B) Divisions 500-515-Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (Advance to

the Minister for Finance)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure and expen­ diture under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPENDI­ TURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE FOR THE YEAR ENDED 30 JUNE 1979-DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac­ companied by the following officers: Department of the Treasury Mr T. L. Job ling, Director (Finance and General)

Mr B. Strangio, Finance Officer Mr D. W. Holmes by, Estimates Officer Mr J. Weatherstone, Assistant Inspector (Personnel) Mr J. W. Foster, Inspector (Systems and Methods)

Financial Institutions Division Mr F. I. Keenan, Chief Finance Officer Mr R. L. Joyce, Chief Finance Officer Overseas Economic Relations Division

Mr R. E. W. Barnes, Senior Research Officer Revenue, Loans and Investment Division Mr G . Crawford, Chief Finance Officer Mr B. A. Seebach, Senior Finance Officer Office of the Insurance Commissioner

Mr C. R. Hodges, Legislation and Appeals Section

Australian Financial System Inquiry Mr W . Chapman, Administrative Officer Australian Bureau ofStatistics Mr P. G. Howell, Acting First Assistant Statistician, Co-ordination and Man­

agement Division Mr B. H. Crook, Assistant Statistician, Technical Systems and Production Branch Mr D. C. Leaver, Assistant Statistician, Statistical Services Branch Mr J. E. Dulley, Assistant Statistician, Rural, Transport and Construction Mr K. S. Watson, Assistant Statistician, Population Census Mr J. W. Maurer, Acting Assistant Statistician, M anagement Services Branch Mr M. J. Griffiths, Director, Labour Force Section Mr R. Leovic, Acting Director, Information Services Mr C. J. Dent, Director, Personnel M a nagement Mr R. M. Walker, Acting Director, Finance and General Services Section Mr J.D. Palmer, Supervisor, Development and Evaluation Subsection MrS. J. Ridley, Senior Inspector, Finance and Accounts Subsection Mr R. P. 0 'Callaghan, Inspector Finance

18

Australian Taxation Office Mr J. 1. Daly, Assistant Commissioner, Management Services Branch, Man­ agement Division Mr B. M. Nolan, Acting Assistant Commissioner, General Legislation Branch,

Policy and Legislation Division Mr M. Carmody, Acting Executive Officer, General Legislation Branch, Policy and Legislation Division Mr P. 1. McCann, Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Management

Division

Department of Finance Mr J. Wojtaszak, Acting Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Committee called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 670-678-Department of the Treasury (Document A) Divisions 963-970-Department of the Treasury (Document B) Divisions 670-672-Department of the Treasury (Advance to the Minister for

Finance)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure and expen­ diture under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of the Treasury.

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPENDI­ TURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE FOR THE YEAR ENDED 30 JUNE 1979-DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac­ companied by the following officers: Department of Foreign Affairs Mr P. G. F. Henderson, Secretary

Mr K. McDonald, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Foreign Service Division Mr I. G. Bowden, First Assistant Secretary, Public Affairs and Cultural Re-lations Division Mr R. Ashwin, First Assistant Secretary, Western Division Mr J.P. Shelton, Adviser on Science, Technology and the Environment Mr M. 1. Dan, Acting First Assistant Secretary, International Organisation and

Consular Division Mr D. W. Evans, Assistant Secretary, Information Branch Mr G. E. Gibson, Assistant Secretary, Administrative Services Branch Mr C. A. Bromwich, Assistant Secretary, Technical Services Branch Mr D. C. Rutter, Assistant Secretary, Personnel Branch Mr G. Cotsell, Assistant Secretary, Consular, Immigration and Passports

Branch Mr J. A. Benson, Acting Assistant Secretary, Nuclear Policy Branch Mr G. Bilney, Head, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Develop-ment/ European Communities Section Mr R. C. Smith, Head, Manpower Co-ordination and Review Unit Mr R. H. Wyndham, Head, Papua New Guinea Section

Mr K. Scott, Director, Diplomatic Security Section Mr A. R. Taylor, Director, Staffing, Training and Head of Mission Section Mr D. P. Connors, Director, Conditions of Service Section

19

Mr L. Parkes, Director, Finance Section Mr R. B. Hodgson, Protocol Branch Mr K. S. Gray, Director, Property and Office Service Section Mr J. Lovegrove, Director, Communications Section Mr K. Oakman, Overseas Property Liaison Subsection Mr B. J. L. 0 'Donnell, Executive Officer, Training Subsection Dr M. M. Venning, Office of the Adviser on Science, Technology and the

Environment Mr E. Dobson, Director, Automatic Data Processing Section Mr K. R. Fraser, Past Secretary of the Committee on Australia's Relations with the Third World Mr W. Paterson, Nuclear Branch Mr N.J. Kelly, Budget Officer, Finance Section Ms S. Kovacs, Officer in Charge, Language Training Agency Mr E. D. Spry, Secretary,, Department Travel Committee Australian Development Assistance Bureau

Mr J. C. Ingram, Director Dr R. C. Manning, First Assistant Secretary, Bilateral Programs Division Dr J. Baker, Assistant Secretary, Policy Development and Co-ordination Branch Mr B. Bray, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Services Branch Mr E. Ingevics, Assistant Secretary, International Organisations and Liaison

Branch Mr C. E. T. Terrel, Assistant Secretary, Development Training Branch Mr J. R. M. Wolfe, Assistant Secretary, Program Planning and Review Branch Mr N. Hunt, Head, Finance Section Department of Finance

Mr J. Wojtaszak, Acting Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 315-319-Department of Foreign Affairs (Document A) Divisions 851-853-Department of Foreign Affairs (Document B)

Divisions 315 - 318-Department of Foreign Affairs (Advance to the Minister for Finance) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure and expen­ diture under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of Foreign Affairs. 8. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee considered matters for inclusion in the Draft Report. 9. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.38 p.m .

10. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Colston, Davidson, Knight, Martin, Sibraa and Wriedt ( 6 ).

20

K.J. MARTIN Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee B has the honour to report to the Senate.

1. On 11 September I 979, the Sena te referred to the Committee the Departmen­ tal Estimates for the year 1979-80 and Departmental Expenditure under the Ad­ vance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79, where applicable, relating to the follow­ ing Departments:

Attorney-General's Trade and Resources Industrial Relations Employment and Youth Affairs Special Trade Representative

2. The Committee has considered the Estimates and Expenditure under the Ad­ vance, together with the Departmental Explanatory Notes, and has received evidence in relation to them from the Attorney.,.General, Senator Durack, and officers of the Departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. I) 1979-80, Appropriation Bill (No. 2)

1979-80 and the Statement of Heads of Expenditure under the Advance to the Minis­ ter for Finance 1978-79. Certain answers given in writing since the Committee's last hearings will be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committee's hearings.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters arising from its consideration of the Estimates and Expenditure under the Advance:

ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT During its consideration of the Estimates of the Legal Aid Commission (A.C.T. ), the Committee queried the magnitude of the proposed expenditure which, if translated to Australia as a whole, would represent a Commonwealth contribution of $ I OOm for legal aid services, compared with an actual contribution of approximately $24m to the six States and the Northern Territory.

At the time of the Committee's hearings, the Report of the Commission was not availa ble to the Committee. Subsequently, the Chairman of the Commissio n, Mr Jus­ tice R . El se-Mitchell, C.M.G., wrote to the Committee drawing its attention to com­ ments made in the Commission's Second Annual Report. The Report, which was tabled in the Senate on 9 October, makes some trenchant criticisms of factors which

have a ffected the wo rk of the Commission since it commenced operations o n 3 Jul y 1978. These include: (a) the impairment of the Commission's capacity to functi on in the mo st eco n­ omical and efficient manner through ' the co mmitment level origina ll y fixed ,

changes in that commitment during the year and other fin ancial controls' (paras 48-50, 57); (b) the enforced take-over of liabilities o f the Au strali a n Capital Territory Le ga l Aid Committee which the Commiss ion replaced , followin g a mendment o f

the Legal Aid Ordinance on 26 September 1978 - ne a rl y three months after the Commission had commenced its opera tio ns and fin a ncial pl anning ( paras 58 - 60); (c) the Commonwealth's requirement that credit be give n again st es tim ates of

expenditure for contributions to be made by applica nt s for legal assista nce

23

and costs recovered in successful actions on behalf of legally assisted persons (paras 61-64 ); (d) the high level of legal costs in the Australian Capital Territory (paras 70-73 ); .

(e) · the 'confused state of the scale of costs in Workman's Compensation matters' (paras 75 ); and (f) certain difficulties concerning the A.C.T. Commission's relationship with the Commonwealth Legal Aid Commission (paras 78-81 ). The comments made in the Report should be carefully considered by the Senate,

particularly those in relation to the extraordinarily high costs of the provision of these services. The Committee considers that the whole matter of legal aid in the Australian Capital Territory should be the subject of further investigation. The Committee there-. fore recommends that the following matter be referred to the Standing Committee on

Constitutional and Legal Affairs: The provision of legal aid services in the Australian Capital Territory.

DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND RESOURCES The Committee's attention was drawn to an item of expenditure covering Australia's contributions to various international trade associations. The contributions ranged from a proposed contribution of$310 962 to the International Bauxite Association to $346 to the International Discussion Group on Nickel.

The Committee gained the impression that in certain cases, such as contributions to the International Cocoa and Coffee Organisations, Australia's membership might be continuing by default-after the initial justification for its joining no longer existed. Another matter raised by the Committee related to whether, if membership of inter­ national organisations benefited particular producers, it might not be more appropri­ ate to seek contributions from these beneficiaries by means of a levy, rather than by imposing a burden on taxpayers generally. The Committee considers that this matter,

too, should be the subject of further investigation and therefore recommends that the following matter be referred to the Standing Committee on Trade and Commerce: Australia's financial contribution to, and participation in, international trade organisations.

GENERAL COMMENTS Departmental Witnesses:

The Committee was pleased to note the high calibre and seniority of the witnesses appearing before it. The discussion in the Senate on 23 August relating to comments made by the Standing Orders Committee in its Fourth Report of the Fifty-ninth Session seems to have had a salutary effect on those departments which had presented certain difficulties to the Committee in this regard during earlier hearings.

Committees' Rights to Receive Information: The conflict of interest between a Senate Committee's right to pursue its inquiries where public accountability for expenditure of funds is involved, and a Minister's re­ sponsibility to withhold certain information, has been adverted to in the Committee's last two reports. The problem arose again during the current hearings. Specific infor­ mation was sought in two areas of the Attorney-General's Department, the fir st relat­ ing to fees paid by the Commonwealth to a Queen's Counsel acting on its behalf, with the second concerning the cancellation of the Sixth United Nations Conference.

The Attorney-General has replied to the Committee's satisfaction in relation to the second matter, and no doubt a reply concerning the Queen's Counsel's fees will be forthcoming before the Senate considers the Committee's Report. In it s November

24

1978 Report, the Committee specifically noted the co-operation of the Attorney­ General in securing an appropriate response to the Committee's requests, and does so again with equal alacrity. In addition, these two matters did not involve the question of commercial confidentiality which precipitated the Committee's 1978 recommen­

dation to refer the matter of in camera evidence to the Standing Orders Committee. The Committee makes the point, however, that even in the situations faced by the Committee during these hearings the possibility of conflict might have been minimised if the in camera device had been available to it. It therefore awaits with interest the Report of the Standing Orders Committee relating to this matter.

4. In conclusion, the Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance given by the Attorney-General and the officers of the various departments who assisted the Committee.

9 October 1979

25

P. E. RAE

Chairman

Ill

· Estiinates Coininittee B Minutes of Proceedings

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.14

TUESDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.41 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1979-80 and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80-ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers: Attorney-General's Department Mr A. R. Neaves, Secretary

Mr H. T. Bennett, Deputy Secretary Mr P. Brazil, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr B. 0 'Donovan, Acting Crown Solicitor Mr L. Glare, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Special Services

Division Mr A. R. Watson, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Federal Courts Division Mr H. D . Logue, Senior Assistant Secretary, Criminal Law Branch Mr J. H. Greenwell, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Business Affairs Division Mr E. J. Wright, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Legis.lative Drafting Division Mr C. C. Creswell, Senior Assistant Secretary, Family Law Branch

Mr J. L. M. Carnsew, Assistant Secretary, Special Services Branch Mr P. Baskett, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr J. F. Thomson, Assistant Director, Australian Legal Aid Office Division Mr P.R. Loof, First Assistant Secretary, Sixth UN Congress on Crime Mr K. J. Nixon, Principal Registrar, Family Court of Au stralia Mr J.P. Harkins, Deputy Chairman, Commonwealth Legal Aid Commission Mr P. J. Sharkey, Director, Legal Aid Commission (A.C.T.) Mr R. G . Mills, Registrar, Administrative Appeals Tribunal Mr D. Biles, Acting Director, Australian Institute of Criminology Mr G. C. Wyer, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Office of the Commiss ioner

for Community Relations Mr N. Sexton, Director, Legislative Drafting Institute Mr A. B. French, Director, Finance, Central Office Mr R. Venables, Finance Section, Central Office Mr T. Polleycutt, Director, Automatic Data Processing Branch

Department of Finance Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. A. Landrigan, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 165-175-Attorney-General 's Department (Document A)

29

The Committee suspended its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Attorney-General's Department.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.07 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the · Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator J. N. Button, Senator G. J. Evans,Senator A. J. Messner, Senator M. C. Tate and Senator H. W. Young.

30

P. E. RAE Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.l5

FRIDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 1979

I. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.05 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978- 79- DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND YOUTH AFFAIRS:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Employment and Youth Affairs Mr J. E. Cooley, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management Services

Division Mr N. J. Clifford, General Manager, Commonwealth Employment Service, Operations Division Mr A. G. Abrahart, Assistant Secretary, Employment Policy and Programs

Branch Mr A. G. Lorraine, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch Mr D. G. Poulter, Assistant Secretary, Training Programs Branch Mr J. W. Way, Assistant Secretary, Office of Youth Affairs

Mr C. J. Lock, Acting Principal Executive Officer, Finance Branch Mr R. P. Rust, Principal Executive Officer, Apprenticeship and Trade Section

Department of Finance Mr T. J. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 286- 288- (Document A)

Divisions 838-840-( Document B) Division 288-(Advance to Minister for Finance 1978 - 79) The Committee concluded its consideration of the particulars of proposed expendi­ ture 1979- 80 and expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance

1978-79 for the Department ofEmployment and Youth Affairs.

4 . PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978-79-DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Industrial Relations Mr M. B. Keogh, Secretary

Mr J. Maher, Deputy Secretary Mr J. T. C. Brassil, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Labour Economics, Re­ view and Services

31

25530179-2

Mr K. A. Power, AssistantSecretary, Management Services Mr R. T. Coffey, Perspnp,el and Projects . . ,

Mr F. B. Kovachevich, Director, Finance and Services Mr I. A. McLeod, Executive Officer, Office oflndustrial Registrar Industrial Relations Bureau Mr D. L. Linehan, Director

MrC.K. WoodjDeputy Director-Mr E. H. Lamb, Assistant Director, Management Trade Union A!Jthorfty .

Mr M. E. Heagney; National Director Mr P. W. D. Matthews, Director or'Studies MrP.A .. ·Wade, Administrator D,epartment of Finance . . . .

Mr T : 1. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: 'Divisions370-3-78-(Document A) . Division 875-(Document B)

Divisions 2 95-3 70-(Advance to Minister for Finance 1978-79) The Com·mittee concluded its consideration of die ·particulars of proposed expendi­ ture 1979-80 and expenditure under the Advance to the Minister . for Finance 1978 - 79 for .the Department oflndusthal Relations. · · ·

5. ADJOURI\_IMENT:.The Committee adj.ourned.at 4.29 p .. m. ,

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Ra'e (Chairman), Senator M. C. Tate and Senator H. 'W. Young. Apolo­ gies were received from Senator J. N . Button,-Senator G. 1. Evans and Senator A. J. Messner. · · ·

;•,.·

32

·p. E. RAE

Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE 8

MINUTES OF .J>ROCEEDINGS No. 16

TUESDA Y, '25 l979

L MEETINy: The: p .m. Jhe Chairman (Senator Rae) took

the Chair. · · ·

2. PARTICULARS , OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80-DEP AR TME.NT OF TRADE AN,D .RESOURCES: .

Appearing: Senator the Hori. P ; D. Durack, Q.C, Attorney-Generai, accompanied by the following officers: ·

Department .of Trade and Resq11rces . . Mr R. D. Maxwell, First Assistant' Secretary, Uranium _ Div;ision Mr W. d. McGregor, Assistant Secretary, Uranium Division . Mr J. M. Wilcox, Principal Adviser, Commodities No.2 Division

Mr S. J. Ryan, Director, Financial Management and Services, Management Branch Mr P. -C:' Laird< Assistant Director, Finance and Accounts, Management Branch Uranium Advisory Council

Mr J. S. White, Secretary Australian Uranium Export Mr B. B. Leedham, Acting First Assistant Secretary

Mr F. D. Ward, Principal Executive Officer · ·

Joint Coal Board Mr A. C. Girrard, Chief Administrative Officer and Alternate Board Member - Mr L. G. O'Brien, Chief Finance Officer

Australian Atomic Energy Commission Dr R. K. Warner, Chief of Division, Chief Production Division (Uranium) Mr R. Baker, Chief Finance Officer .Department of Finance

Mr T. J. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 640, 641 and 646-( Document A) The Committee suspended its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the

Department ofTrade and Resources.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979- 80-ATTORNEY­ GENERAL 'S DEPARTMENT (continued):

Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C. , Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers: Attorney-General's Department Mr H. T. Bennett, Deputy Secretary

Mr B. 0 'Donovan, Acting Crown Solicitor Mr L. G. Glare, First As sistant Secretary, Management a nd Special Services Division Mr A. R. Watson, Acting First Assista nt Secreta ry, Federal Courts Division

33

Mr P. R. Loof, First Assistant Secretary, Sixth UN Congress on Crime Mr 1. F. Thomson, Assistant Director, Australian Legal Aid Office Division Mr P. E. Baskett, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr A B. French, Director Finance, Central Office Mr R. Venables, Finance Section, Central Office Mr T. Polleycutt, Director, Automatic Data Processing Branch Mr 1. P. Harkins, Deputy Chairman, Commonwealth Legal Aid Commission Mr P. 1. Sharkey, Director, Legal Aid Commission (Australian Capital

Territory) Mr R. G. Mills, Registrar, Administrative Appea ls Tribunal Mr D. Biles, Acting Director, Australian Institute of Criminology Mr 1. Houston, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner for

Community Relations Mr N. Sexton, Director, Legislative Drafting Institute Dr G. Taylor, Director, Research, Administrative Review Council Mr N . E. Sainsbury, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Judicial Administration

Division

Department of Finance Mr T. 1. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer Discussion ensued referring to answers provided by the Department to questions asked by the Committee on Tuesday, 18 September 1979.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.07 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator 1. N . Button, Senator G. 1. Evans, Senator A J. Messner, Senator M. C. Tate and Senator H. W. Young.

34

P. E. RAE Chairman

I''

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.17

THURSDAY, 27 SEPTEMBER 1979

I. MEETING: The Committee met at 2. 15 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPENDI­ TURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978 - 79 ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT (continued):

Appearing: Senator the Hon. P . D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers: Attorney-General's Department Mr B. 0 'Donovan, Acting Crown Solicitor

Mr L. G. Glare, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Special, Services Division Mr A. R. Watson, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Federal Courts Division Mr P. R. Loof, First Assistant Secretary, Sixth UN Congress on Crime Mr J. F. Thomson, Assistant Director, Australian Legal Aid Office Division Mr P. E. Baskett, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr A. B. French, Director, Finance, Central Office Mr R. Venables, Finance Section, Central Office Mr T. Polleycutt, Director, Automatic Data Processing Branch Mr J. P. Harkins, Deputy Chairman, Commonwealth Legal Aid Commission

Mr P. J . Sharkey, Director, Legal Aid Commission (A.C.T.) Mr R. G . Mills , Registrar, Administrative Appeals Tribunal Mr W. Clifford, Director, Australian Institute of Criminology Mr J. Houston, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner for

Community Relations Mr N. Sexton, Director, Legislative Drafting Institute Dr G . Taylor, Director, Research, Administrative Review Council Department of Finance

Mr T. J. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 175 - 192 - (DocumentA) Divisions 823 and 824- ( Document B)

Divisions 165 - 178 and 823-824- (Advance to the Minister for Finance 19 78 - 79) The Committee concluded its consideration of the particul ars of propose d ex pendi­ ture 1979-80 and expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978 - 79 for the Attorney-General's Department.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979- 80 AND EXPENDI­ TURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE Ml ISTER FOR FINANCE 1978 - 79 -DEPARTMENTOFTRADE AND RESOURCES (con tinued ):

Appearin g: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Q.C. , Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers: Depanment of Trade and Reso urces Mr R. Moore, Assistant Secretary, Management Branch

35

Mr S. 1. Ryan, Director, Financial .Manageinent" and Services, Management Branch . . , . , . . .

Mr A. L. Paltridge, First Assistant Secretary·, Trade Promotion and Services Division Mr G. Hall, Assistant Secretary, Trade-Promotion and Services Division Mr G. Tarjan, Trade Promotion and Services Division Mr M. 1. Principal Executive Officer, Commodities No. I Division Mr 1. M. Wilcox,· Principal Adviser, Commo'dities No.2 Division · Mr I. Shearer, Computer System Operator, Economic and Policy Division Mr D. Spencer, Director, International Trade :eolicy Division McP. Marcusson,:Assistant Secretary, Overseas Branch Mr J.P. Cahill, Assistant Director, Overseas Branch . Mr R. L. Evans, ,Director, Export Development (]ranFs Board Department of Finance . . . .

Mr T.J. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following.J?ivisions for_con,siqeratiori:. Divisions A) .

Division 952-(Document B) Divisions 295-370-(.Advance-.to the ·Minister for Finance 1.9.78-79) The Com:mittee·cortduded-its consideration 0f the-particulars of proposed expendi­ ture 1979L80 ahd : expenditure ·tinder the Advance to the ·Minister for Finance

1978-79 for the DepartmenfofTtade and Resources. · ·

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSEO EXJ>ENDITU RE (979-80-DEPARTMENT QF THE SPE<:;:IAL :TRADE REPRESENTATIVE:

Appearing.; Senator Hon. Durack, Q .C., Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers: · · '

Department of the' Spec_ia l Trade'Represerliative . Mr F. E. Anderson, Fi.tst Assistant S.ecretaty Mr R. F. O'Donoghue, Assistant Secretary Department of Trade a11dResources .

Mr p, C. . Laird, Assistant Director, .finance and Accounts, Management Branch

Department ofFinance . , . . , . . ·

Mr T. 1. Moloney, Senior Finance Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following for consideration: .

Division 620-(Document A) The Coin:mittee concluded its consideration of the particulars of proposed expendi­ ture 1979-80.for the Department of the Special Trade Representative. .,

5. · ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 5.15 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following of the Committee . were present:

Senato'r P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator 1. N. Button, Senator A. 1. Messner, Senator M. C. Tate and Senator '1-i. W. ·y 9ung. An apology was received from Senator G . 1. Evans. · · ·

36

P. E. RAE

Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.18

TUESDAY, 9 OCTOBER 1979

l. MEETING: The Committee met at 6.03 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. MINUTES: On the motion of Senator Messner, the Minutes of the Meetings of 18, 2 l, 25 and 2 7 September 1979, previously circulated to Committee members, were confirmed.

3. CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT: The Committee proceeded to con­ sider the draft report of the Chairman. The Committee agreed to the Report, with an amendment.

4. ADDITIONAL REPLIES: The Committee resolved that the additional replies received by the Committee from the Attorney-General and Departments, together with a letter from Mr Justice R . Else-Mitchell, C.M.G., Chairman of the Legal Aid Commission (A.C.T. ), be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in the Hansard record of the Committee's proceedings.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.07 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae, (Chairman), Senator J. N. Button, Senator G. J. Evans, Senator A. J. Messner and Senator M. C. Tate. An apology was received from Senator H. W. Young.

37

P. E. RAE Chairman

\,

ESTIMA"fES COMMITTEE C REPORT TO 1_,HE SENATE

' ,

;,.' ·.

[I

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee C has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 11 September 1979 the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates for the year 1979-80 relating to the following Departments: Social Security Finance

Health Immigration and Ethnic Affairs Veterans' Affairs The Senate also referred departmental expenditure under the Advance to the Minis­

ter for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1979 in respect of the following Departments: Social Security Finance

Health Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

2. The Committee considered the Estimates and Expenditure under the Ad­ vance to the Minister for Finance, and received explanations from the Minister for Social Security (Senator Guilfoyle) and officers of the various Departments. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Com­

mittee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1979-80 and Appropriation Bill (No.2) 1979-80.

3. During the hearing of evidence undertakings were given that additional writ­ ten information would be made available to the Committee. Written replies toques­ tions will be tabled for the information of the Senate, and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committee's hearings.

4. During the consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health, the Committee was disadvantaged in its deliberations because of the absence of the Annual Report and financial statements of the Health Insurance Commission together with the Auditor-General's Report thereon, for the year ended 30 June 1978.

The Committee notes that section 42 of the Health Insurance Commission Act 1974 clearly lays down certain requirements in respect of the production of Annual Reports of the Commission. The Committee believes that the late production of this report is unsatisfactory, and is of the opinion that Government should provide the Senate with a com prehen­ sive statement as to why there has been such a long delay in the tabling of the Report.

5. The Committee records its appreciation of the evidence given by the Minister for Social Security and officers of the various Departments whose Estimates and Expenditure under the Advance the Committee considered.

41

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

Estiniates Coniinittee C Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.15

TUESDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER 1979

I. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.40 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Walters) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made an introductory state­ ment and reported to the Committee that the Senate had referred, on II September 1979, the Estimates for for certain departments, and certain departmental expenditure under the Adva nce to the Minister for Finance for I978- 79 , to the Com­

mittee for examination and report.

3. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANjCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE I978-79: Pursuant to the Order of the Senate, the Committee commenced consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure

for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1980, the Particulars for Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the year endingon 30 June 1980 and the Depart­ mental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June I979 relating to the following:

Departmental Estimates to be Examined (Minister: Senator the Hon. M . G. C. Guilfoyle)

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 113-115 590-591 Social Security 327 230 000

B 23-24 939-940 Social Security 61 440 000

A 54-56 304-308 Finance 36 761 000

B 12 845-846 Finance 10 057 000

A 57 310 Advance to the Minister for Finance 125 000 000

B 12 850 Advance to the Minister for Finance 100 000 000

A 65-69 325 -329 Health I 492 266 000

B 13 - 14 855-857 Health 102 7 13 000

A 80 - 82 360-364 Immigratio n and Ethnic Affairs 71 919 000

B 17 - 18 870 - 87 4 Immigration and Ethnic Affairs I 447 000

A 129 - 132 690 - 693 Veterans' Affairs 386 615 000

B 26 980 - 981 Veterans' Affairs 3 220 000

*Document A-'Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1980'. * Document B- 'Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1980 '.

45

Page in Document*

II

8

9

9- 10

Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79

Division No.

590

304- 308 327 360-364

Socia l Security Finance Hea lth . . .

Department

Immigratio n a nd Ethnic Affairs

Amount

$

164 505 39 47 1 7 178838 391 293

• Document-'Advance to the Minister fo r Finance - Stateme nt o f He ads of Ex penditure and the amounts charged thereto, pursuant to secti on 36A o f the Audit Act 190 I, for the Year Ended 30 June 1979'.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSE D EXPENDITU RE FOR THE D E PART­ MENT OF SOCIAL SEC URITY AND DEPART MENTAL EXPENDITU RE U NDE R THE ADVANCE TO TH E MI N ISTE R FOR F INA NCE 1978 - 79:

Appea ring: Sena tor the Hon. M. G . C. Guilfoyle , Minister fo r Social Security, ac­ compa nied by th e following o ffic e rs: Department of S ocial Security P . 1. La nigan, Director-Genera l

M. Wrye ll , Deputy Director-General J. T. O 'Conno r, D eputy Director-General J. M. Ma ho ney, First Assista nt Directo r-Genera l ( Benefits) C. A. McAlister, First Ass istant Directo r-General ( Deve lo pme nt )

D. Corrigan, First Assistant Director-Ge neral (M anagement) J.D. Ha ll , Firs t Assistant Directo r-Ge neral ( Re ha bilit:J. ti o n a nd Subsidies) A. S. Colli ve r, First Assistant D irector-Genera l (Socia l We lfa re) L. H. Rya n, Acting First Assista nt Directo r-Genera l (Syste ms a nd Ope rati o ns )

Mrs M. Y. Colem a n, Director, Office o f C hild Care Mrs M. Kilpatrick, Assista nt Director-G enera l ( Be ne fit s Administratio n ) C. Cal vert, Assista nt Directo r-G enera l (Fin a nce) D . R. Scott, Assista nt Director-G eneral ( Manage me nt Services )

D. I. Stanton, Assista nt Directo r-G ene ra l ( Research a nd Sta ti sti cs) .1 . C. Sc hooneveldt, Acting Assista nt Directo r-Gene ra l (Secreta riat and

Info rmatio n ) .1. Ll eonart, Assista nt Directo r-G e ne ra l (S pecia l Proj ects)

K . Ho rsham , Assistant Directo r-Gene ra l (Subsidies) W . Hughes, Directo r (Compensa tio n Review)

Departm ent of Finance T. 1. Molo ney, Se nior Fina nce Offi ce r, Acco unting a nd Supply Division T he C hairma n ca ll ed o n Di visio ns 590- 59 1 a nd 93 9- 940, Depa rt me nt of Socia l Se­ curity and D e pa rtm e nta l Ex penditure und e r the Adva nce to th e Minister fo r Fin a nce.

Considera ti o n co mme nced of th e fo ll owin g Pa rtic ul a rs of Proposed Expend itu re a nd Departme ntal Expenditure under th e A dvance to th e Minister fo r Fina nce:

Divisio ns 590 - 59 1- Social Securi ty $327 230 000 ( Doc ument A) Divisio ns 939- 940 - Socia l Security $6 1 440 000 ( Doc um e nt B) Departme nt a l Expenditure unde r th e Adva nce to th e Mini ste r for Fin a nce $ 164 505

And Divisio n 590 being co nsidered by th e Co mmittee-46

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at lO .O lp.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The fo llow ing members of the Co mmittee were present: Se na tor Walters (Chairman) and Senators Grimes, Bonner, Kilgariff and Mulvihill. Se nator Teague was also in attendance.

47

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

THE SENATE­

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROC:EDINGS , , No.16

MONDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER 1979

l. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.03 a.m.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPART­ MENT OF SOCIAL SECURITY AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978 - 79:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, ac­ companied by the foll owing officers:

Department of Social Security M. Wryell, Acting Director-General 1. T. 0 'Connor, Deputy Director-General 1. M. Mahoney, First Assistant Director-General

D. Corrigan, First Assistant Director-General (Management) J. D. Hall, First Assistant Director-General (Rehabilitation and Subsidies) A. S. Colliver, First Assistant Director-General (Social Welfare) L. H. Ryan, Acting First Assistant Director-General (Systems and Operations) Mrs M. Y. Coleman, Director, Office of Child Care Mrs M. Kilpatrick, Assistant Director-General (Benefits Administration) C. Calvert, Assistant Director-General (Finance) P. J. Taylor, Acting Assistant Director-General (Management Services) S. Spooner, Acting Assistant Director-General (Policy Development) J. C. Schooneveldt, Acting Assistant Director-General (Secretariat and

Information) J. Lleonart, Assistant Director-General (Special Projects)

K. Horsham, Assistant Director-General (Subsidies) W. Hughes, Director(Co mpensation Review) E. Prince, Assistant Director-General (Benefits Control) A. Herscovitch, Acting Assistant Director-General (Research and Statistics) E. Lucas, Director (International Year of the Child)

E. Kennedy, Assistant Director-General (Operations)

Department of Finance J. A. Landrigan, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

Consideration resumed of the following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance:

Divisio ns 590 - 591 - Social Security $32 7 230 000 (Document A) Divisions 939 - 940 - Social Security $61 440 000 ( Document B) Departm ental Expenditure under th e Advance to th e Minister for Finance $ 164 505 Consideration of th e Estimates for th e Department a nd Expenditure und er th e Ad­ vance to the Minister for Finance completed subject to a n und ertaking by the Minis­ ter to provide replies to anum ber o f questions.

48

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPART­ MENT OFFINANCEAND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE, MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978-79: .

Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. ,G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister the Minister for Finance,. accompanied by . the following

o fficers:

Department of Finance: . ,

Mr J. R. Bennett, Assistant Secretary, Management Services · Mr G. M . Wauchop, Acting Director, Finance and General Services · Mr.I. M . Briggs, Finance Officer; Estimates and Accounts · Mr P. L. Lid better, Assistant Secretary, Accounting Operations ijranch

Mr K . Whalley, Assistant Secretary, ADP Branch . Mr.D , K. Wallace, Officer, Public_ Accounting and Supply

Mr W. J. Brophy, Director, Mr E. G. Flood, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Development Branch Mr C. Acting Chief Finance Officer, R ail and Sea Section Mr G . Miller, Senior Finance.Officer, Government Administration Branch

Mr J. A. La_ ndriga n, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Australian Government Retirement Benefit Office: Mr N . E. Condo leon, Acting Assistant Secre tary . Mr D. Droop; Acting Director; Superannuation

MrS. Lalor, Acting Director, Services Mr R. Jackson, Finance Officer Royal Australian Mint: Mr B. McLennan; Superintendent Superannuation Fund Investment Trust:

Mr w: J. Gynn, Secretary The Chairman called on Divisions 304- 308 a nd .845 - 846 , Department o f Finance a nd Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance. Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and Depa'rtmental Expenditure under the Ad­

vance to the Minister for Finance were considered as follow s: Divisions 304- 308 - Finance $36 761 000 ( Document A) Divisions 845-846- Finance $10 057 000 (Document B) Departmental Expenditure ·under the Advance to the Minister fo r Fina nce

$39 471

Consideration of the Estimates fo r the Department and Expenditure under the Ad­ vance to the .Minister for Finance completed subject to an underta kin g by th e Minis-ter to provide replies to a o f questio ns. ·

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED E XPEN DITURE- ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1979-80:

Appearing: Senator the Ho n. M. G . C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Socia l Security Minister representing the Minister for Fina nce, acco mpa nied by th e foll owm g officers: Department of Finance: .

Mr J. R . Bennett, Ass istant Secretary, Ma nage ment Serv1ce s Mr G. M. W a uchop, Acting Directo r, Fina nce a nd G eneral Services Mr P. L. Lid better, Assistant Secre ta ry, Accounting a nd Operatio ns Bra nch Chairman called on Divisions 31 0 and 850, Adva nce to th e Minister for Fina nce .

49

The following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure were considered: Division 31 0-Advance to the Minister for Finance $125 000 000 (Document A) Division 850-Advance to the Minister for Finance $100 000 000 (Document B) Consideration of the Advance to the Minister for Finance completed.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPART­ MENT OF HEALTH AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978-79:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G . C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Health, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Health: Mr C. A. Nettle, Deputy Director-General

Mr H. West, First Assistant Director-General, Medical Benefits Division Mr L. W. Lane, First Assistant Director-General, Management Services Division Mr R. H. Searle, First Assistant Director-General, Quarantine Division Dr D. B. Travers , First Assistant Director-General, Medical Services Division Dr B. L. Hennessy, First Assistant Director-General, Policy and Planning

Divisio n Dr W. A. Langsford, First Assistant Director-General, Public Health Division Mr J. W. Shaw, Assistant Director-General, Finance, Pharmacy Earnings and P roj ects Branch Mr R. E. M. Wilson, Assistant Director"'General, Therapeutic Goods Branch Mr G. F. Bun fie ld, Director, Finance Mr G. James, Assis tant Director-General, National Health and Medical Re­

search Council - Administration Mr H. D . Kelaher, Assistant Director-General, Insurance Development Branch Mr R . B. Rofe, Assistant Director-General, Community Health Branch Dr L. Carr, Assistant Director-General, Dental Health Branch Mr E. R. Bo a rdman, Chairman, Capital Territory Health Commission Dr A. S. Cumming Thorn, Deputy Chairman, Capital Territory Health

Commissio n Mr R. A. Foskett, First Assistant Commissioner, Policy, Planning and Administration Division, Capital Territory Health Commission Mr A. J. Tozer, Assistant Commissioner, Finance Branch, Capital Territory

He alt h Commission

Department of Finance: Mr 1. A. Landrigan, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairma n called on Divisions 325 - 329 and 855-857, Department of Health, and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance. Particul ars of Proposed Expenditure and Departmental Expenditure under the Ad­ va nce to th e Minister for Finance were considered as follow s:

Divisio ns 325 - 329- He a lth $1 492 266 000 ( Document A) Divisio ns 855 - 857 - Health $102 713 000 (Document B) Departme nt a l Expenditure und er the Advance to the Minister for Fin ance $7 178 838 Consideration of the Estimates for the Dep artment and Expenditure und er th e Ad ­ vance to the Minister for Finance co mpleted subject to an underta kin g by th e Min is­ ter to provide replies to a nu m ber of ques tions.

50

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPART­ MENT OF IMMIGRATION AND ETHNIC AFFAIRS AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978 - 79:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs: Mr N. W. F. Fisher, First Assistant Secretary, Division 2 Mr P. H. Bennett, Assistant Secretary, Management Branch Mr L.A. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Control Branch Mr I. G. Simington, Assistant Secretary, Refugees and Special Projects Branch

Mr J. B. Machin, Director, Adult Education Branch Mr W. G . Kiddie, Assistant Secretary, Settlement Branch Mr M. J. Touchin, Director, Settlement Branch Mr A. W . Burt, Acting Director, Finance and General Services Mr D. J. Page, Gal bally Working Group

Department of Finance: Mr J. A. Landrigan, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman cailed on Divisions 360-364 and 870 - 874, D epartment of Immi­ gration and Ethnic Affairs and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the

Minister for Finance.

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and Departmental Expenditure under the Ad­ vance to the Minister for Finance were considered as follow s:

Divisions 360- 364-Immigration and Ethnic Affairs $7 1 919 000 (Document A) Divisions 870-874- Immigration and Ethnic Affairs$! 447 000 (Document B) Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance- $391 293

Consideration of the Estimates for the Department and Expenditure under the Ad­ vance to the Minister for Finance completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minis­ ter to provide replies to a number o f questions.

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPART­ MENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. C. G. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Veterans ' Affairs accompanied by the follow­ ing officers: Department of Veterans' Affairs:

Mr G . T. Miller, First Assistant Commissioner, Management Services Division Mr K. H. Ryan, Acting Director (Finance), Management Services Division Mr T. S. Hu ghes, Assistant Director (Budgets ), Management Services Division Dr M. M. K e hoe, Deputy Chief Director (Medical Services) , Medical Division Mr J. Muir, First Assistant Commiss ioner, Treatment Service s Divisio n Mr B. Godfrey, Acting As sistant Commiss ioner ( Benefits) , Benefits and Le gi ·­

lation Division Mr A. Selleck, General Manager, Defence Service Ho me Corpora ti on Mr J. Rey nolds, Director (Finance Manage ment ), Defen ce Service Ho me Co rporatio n

5 1

· Department of Finance.' 0

Mr 1. A; Landrigan, Senior Fittance Officer, Accounting arid Supply Division The Minister for Social Security( Senator Guilfoyle) a- behalf of

the Minister for Veterans' Affairs. The Chairman called on Divisions 690-693 and 980-981, Department of Veterans' Affairs. Particulars of Proposed Expenditure were considered as follows:

Divisions 690-693-Veterans' Affairs $386 615 OOO '(Documertt A) · Divisions 980-981-Veterans' Affairs '$3 220 000 (Document B) Consideration of the Es.tiinates for' the Department completed: • • ' w '

8. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourneqat: 10.03 P·I11·

9. ATTENDANCE: The following ·. members; of the Committee: were .present: Senator Walters (Chairman,), and Senators Kilgariff and MulvihilL Senator Teague was also in attendance. ·

52

· SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.17

WEDNESDAY, 10 OCTOBER 1979

I. DELIBERATIVE MEETING: The Committee met at 9.03 a.m.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes ofthe meetings held on 18 Sep­ tember 1979 and 24 September 1979 were read and confirmed.

3. CONSIDERATION OF REPORT: The Chairman presented her Draft Report to the Committee. Discussion ensued. Resolved- That the Report be agreed to.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.15 a.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Walters (Chairman), and Senators Bonner, Kilgaritfand Mulvihill.

53

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

. I

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES .COMMITTEE D

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates' Committee D has the honour to present its report tb the

2. Pursuant to the Order of the Senate the Committee has -considered .rhe esti., mates of proposed expenditure for 1979-80 of the following departments, and the sums charged to the Advance to the Minister for Finance in 1978-79 by these departments: _

Department of Science and the Environment Department of Primary Industry · Department of Home Affairs Department of the Capital Territory

of Housil}g and Construction

The Committee has receiyed explanations of the proposed expenditure, of the expenditure charged to the .Advance, from the Minister for Science and the Environ-ment and of the department.s. -

3. The minutes ofprO'ceedings of the Committee are included inlhis Report and the Hansard report of the evidence taken is presented herewith. Written answers fur­ nished by departments will be presented separately and printed in the Hansard record.

4. The attention of the Senate is drawn to the_ following matters.

ADVANCE TO THE MINISTE_ If FOR FINANCE 5. The Committee consid.ersthat the document which sets out the sums charged by departments, to the Advance to the -Minister for Finance, which is entitled 'State­ ment. of Heads of Expenditure and the amounts charged thereto pursuant to section 36A of the Audit Act 1901 ', should show the totals for each division-and . for each de­ partment, and should also show in relation to each item the amounts which' depart­

ments were authorised to expend under the Advance, as well as the amounts actually expended. The amounts authorised to be expended under the Advance a_re included in the figures showing the total appropriation for the previous financial year in the particulars of proposed expenditure documents, and were shown separately in the ex­

planatory notes provided by departments on their expenditure under the Advance, but it would ·be helpful if they were included in the Statement.

AUSTRALIA. COUNCIL AND , AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL GALLERY 6. In itsreport in Novemberl978 the Committee express ed its dissatisfaction with the explanatory notes provided by these two bodies. This year they provided much more information in their notes, and this was helpful and gratifying to the Co m­

mittee. Inclusion of the explanatory nqtes of all statutory bodies within the jurisdic­ tion of the Department of Home Affairs in the single volume of note s by that Department was al so helpful to the Committee.

REPORTS RELATED .TO DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE 7. . This year a number of annual reports and other d ocuments rel a tin g to the activities of departments and statutory bodies were presented to Parliament too la te to be examined by members.of the Committee and other interested Senators befo re

the hearings of the Committee. For example, the annual report of the CSI RO fo r 1978 - 79 was not presented until 20 September 1979, th e day on which the Co m­ mittee began it s examination of the estimates of the Departm ent of Science a nd the

57

Environment, including a proposed expenditure of $155 600 000 for the CSIRO. The Committee appreciates that this problem was partly caused by the Estimates Com­ mittees sitting unusually early, but the Committee again urges all departments and statutory bodies to present their annual reports as early as possible in the Budget Session. The Committee also notes that a number of annual reports for the last fin an­ cial year have not yet been presented, and trusts that the Standing Committee on

Finance a nd Government Opera tio ns will continue its inquiries into the delays in the presentation of annual reports.

PART-TIME STAFF AND OVERTIME EXPENDITURE 8. The Committee was told (Hansard, 21 September 1979, p. 314) that the National Library of Australia could probably reduce its overtime expenditure and its total expenditure by employing part-time staff, but was prevented from doing so by its staff ceiling. (The Deputy-Chairman referred to the large numbers of retired qualified libraria ns in Canberra available for part-time work.) The same situation may well exist in relation to other departments and authorities. It is an obviously irrational situ­

ation when staff ceilings ·preve nt the employment of persons available for part-time work, and add to the total expenditure by departments. The Committee recommends that the possibility of the reduction of expenditure and the increase in total employ­ ment by the employment of part-time staff should be examined in relation to all de­ partments by the Public Service Board.

COMPUTERS 9. In its report in November 1978 the Committee referred to comments by sev­ eral Estimates Committees on the large cost to the Commonwealth of the purchase and use of computers by departments. That report referred to the review by the Public Service Board and by an interdepartmental committee of departmental use of com­ puters, and recommended that the Government report regularly to Parliament on th e activities of those bodies in relation to computers and on the total expenditure on computers. The Public Accounts Committee is reviewing computer use, but th e rec­ ommendation of this Committee does not seem to have been carried out. The Com­

mittee renews that recommendation.

DEPARTMENTAL LIBRARIES I 0. During the hearings of the Committee (for example, as recorded in Hansard, 20 September 1979, p . l 09, and 2 l September I 979, pp. 314- 315) concern has been expressed about the expenditure by departments and authorities on their own libraries. The Committee considers that there may well be overlapping and waste in the expenditure on such libraries, as an alternative to the use of the facilities and the ever-improving services of the National Library and other central libraries. The Com­

mittee recommends that this matter be the subject of inquiry by the Senate Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations.

NATIONAL CAPITAL DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION II. The Committee was told (Hansard, 2 7 September 1979, p. 635) that the NCDC is taking over some works projects formerly done by the Department of Hous­ ing and Construction, and there seem to be no criteria which determine whether p ar­ ticular projects will be provided for in the NCDC program or in the Department's program. This should be a matter of concern to the Senate, particularly as NCDC projects, unlike the Department's projects, are not subject to scrutiny by the Public Works Committee. The Committee recommends that the questions of whether th e Commonwealth should continue to maintain two separate construction a uthorities, and if so, whether there ought to be a better delineatio n of the re sponsi bilities of those

58

authorities, and better procedures for ensuring Parliamentary control of their activi­ ties, should be the subject of close consideration by the Government. The Govern­ ment should consider these matters while preparing its response to the Report of the Joint Committee on the Australian Capital Territory on planning in the Territory.

12. The Committee records its appreciation of the assistance of the Minister for Science and the Environment and of officers of the departments.

9 October 1979

59

C. R. MA UNSELL

Chairman

Estin1ates Coininittee D Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.12

THURSDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 1979

l. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met in public session at 2.15 p.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 1. The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair.

2. CHAIRMAN'S STATEMENT: The Chairman made a statement relating to the estimates of proposed expenditure and sums charged to the Advance to the Minister for Finance to be considered by the Committee.

3. DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE AND THE ENVIRONMENT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of Science and the Environment:

Mr C. A. Webster, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr K. R. S. Fuller, Assistant Secretary, Policy Studies and International Activities Branch Mr K. E. Thompson, First Assistant Secretary, Environment Division

Mr R. A. Leslie, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Operations and Management Division Mr L. E. Cook, Principal Executive Officer, Space Projects Branch Mr R. Goleby, Assistant Secretary, Grants and Projects Branch Analytical Services:

Mr M. F. Parker, Assistant Director Mr J. Harmer, Administrative Officer Antarctic Division: Mr A. J. Carroll, Acting Project Officer

Mr P. H. Sulzberger, Acting Director Australian Institute of Marine Science: Dr J. S. Bunt, Director Mr R. McCullough, Secretary, AIMS

Anglo-Australian Telescope Board: · Mr D. W. Cunliffe, Executive Officer, Anglo-Australian Observatory Dr P. W. Hill, Research Scientist, Anglo-Australian Observatory Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service:

Mr T. Richmond, Acting Assistant Director Mr I. D. Meek, Business Manager Bureau of Meteorology: Dr J. W. Zillman, Director

Mr R. Maine, Acting Assistant Director, Management Mr J. Peggie, Acting Executive Officer, Finance Ionospheric Prediction Service: Dr D. G. Cole, Acting Assistant Secretary Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority:

Mr J. R. Sands. Assistant Secretary Mr S.J. Woodley, Acting Executive Officer

63

25530179-3

National Standards Commission: Mr W. D. Lockwood, Administrative Officer

Office of the Supervising Scientist: Mr A. Macintosh, AssistantSecretary, Policy and Administration Mr P. Quilty, Executive Officer, Administration

Central Office Support: Mr V. H. Jones, Director, Finance and Supply Mr G. J. Hardy, Estimates Officer MrS. Brockwell, Estimates Officer Ms L. Atkinson, Executive Officer, Grants and Projects Branch Mr P. L. Cummins, Project Officer, Operational Policy Branch Mr R. C. Lloyd, Executive Officer, Finance Space Projects Branch Mr E. Sekavs, Director ADP -

Department of Finance: Mr J. A. Landrigan, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

Representatives from CSIRO: Dr N. K. Boardman, Member of Executive, Institute of Biological Resources Mr I. E. Newnham, Director, Institute of Earth Resources Mr P. F. Butler, First Assistant Secretary, Science Liaison Dr J. B. Allen, Senior Assistant Secretary, Science Liaison Mr A. W. Charles, Secretary, Institute of Animal and Food Sciences Mr K. L. Avent, Secretary, Institute of Biological Resources Mr H. R. Webb, Secretary, Institute of Physical Sciences Dr J. R. Yates, Secretary, Institute of Industrial Technology Mr G. P. Warden, Secretary, Bureau of Scientific Services Mr I. C. Bogg, Senior Assistant Secretary, Budget and Planning Mr I. L. Farrer, Assistant Secretary, Estimates Mr W. P. Dominguez, Estimates Section Mr H. Kwong, Estimates Section Mr R. J. Garrett, Estimates Section Mr J. V. Dunn, Assistant Secretary, Works and Buildings

The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered:

Document A Division 540-Administrative $13 217 000 Division 542-Analytical Services $4 037 000 Division 543-Antarctic Division $11 991 000 Division 544-Bureau of Meteorology $39 643 000 Division 545-Ionospheric Prediction Service $908 000 Division 546-Metric Conversion Board $24 7 000 Division 547-National Standards Commission $502 000 Division 550-Anglo-Australian Telescope Board $1 100 000 Division 552-lnstitute of Marine Science $2 740 000 Division 554-CSIRO $152 500 000 Division 556-Protection of the Environment in the Alligator Rivers Region

$4 713 000 Division 558-Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority $950 000 Division 560-National Parks and Wildlife Service $2 342 000

64

Document B Division 92 7 -Capital Works and Services $10 980 000 Division 928-Payments to or for the States and the N.T. $12 445 000 Division 92 9-0ther Services $400 000

The following sums charged to the Advance to the Minister for Finance were called upon and considered: Division 543-Antarctica $299 330 Division 544-Bureau of Meteorology $34 434 Consideration of these matters was concluded.

4. DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of Primary Industry: Mr D.P. Cleary, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch

Mr L. C. Elliott, Director of Finance Mr A. A. Cooley, Assistant Director, Budgetary Control and Financial Services Mr G . Mackey, First Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 1 (Meat and Meat Products) Division

Mr R. D . Coutts, Acting Assistant Secretary, Industry No.2 (Dairy Products) Division Mr C. S. Gorter, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No.2 (Dairy Products) Division Mr C. W. Hanley, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No.2 (Dairy Products)

Division Mr D. T. Dwyer, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 3 (Field Crops) Division Mr J. A. Stafford, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 3 (Field Crops)

Division Mr E. L. Jenkins, Assistant Secretary, Industry No.4 (Sugar and Horticultural Crops) Division Mr E. A. Purnell-Webb, First Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries)

Division Mr T. B. Curtin, Assistant Secretary, Industry No.5 (Fisheries) Division Mr P. Burns, Senior Executive Officer, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries) Division Mr L. Z.Jelinek, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No.6 (Wool) Division Mr W. Hoogvliet, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No.6 (Wool) Division Mr A. C . Byrne, Principal Executive Officer, Development Division

Mr W. C. K. Hammer, Assistant Secretary, Agriculture and Food Services Division Dr P. M. Symmons, Director, Plague Locust Commission, Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr P. B. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Agriculture and Food Services Division

Mr J. R. Merton, Assistant Secretary, Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr G . M. Young, Principal Executive Officer, Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr I. R. Cottingham, Senior Executive Officer, Agriculture and Food Services

Division Mr W. G. Carter, Principal Executive Officer, Forestry Branch Mr J. A. Hart, Senior Assistant Director, Bureau of Animal Health Mr J. G . Digby, Assistant Director, Bureau of Animal Health

65

Dr R. T. Roe, Veterinary Specialist, Bureau of 4\.nimal Health Mr A. C. Kempe, Principal Executive Officer, Bureau of Animal Health Mr G. L. Miller, Director, Bureau of Agricultural Economics Mr N.J. Lamb, Principal Executive Officer, Bureau of Agricultural Economics Dr G. Evans, Principal Project Officer, Commonwealth Council for Rural Re-

search and Extension Department of Finance: Mr J. A. Landrigan, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered:

Document A Division 490-Administrative $60 080 000 Consideration of this item was concluded.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.20 p.m. 6. ATTENDANCE: Present: All members of the Committee and Senator Mulvihill.

66

C. R. MA UNSELL

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.13

FRIDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 1979

l. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met at lO a.m. in Senate Com­ mittee Room No. 1. Senator Archer, having been appointed Deputy-Chairman by the Chairman in accordance with Standing Order 36AB, took the Chair.

2. DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the departmental officers listed in Minutes of Proceedings No. 12. The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A

Division 494-Bureau of Animal Health $37 919 000 Division 495- Export Inspection Services $6 074 000 Division 497- Bureau of Agricultural Economics $5 522 000

Document B Division 913-Payments to or for the States and the N.T. $51 242 000 Division 914-0ther Services $100 000 The following sum charged to the Advance to the Minister for Finance was called

upon and considered: Division 914-0ther Services $ 15 000 Consideration of these matters was concluded.

3. DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the following departmental officers:

Department of Home Affairs: Co-ordination and Management Division: Mr T. F. Paterson, First Assistant Secretary Mr B. W. Palmer, Director, Management Services

Mr P. Edgar, Director, Arts Section, Cultural Affairs Branch Mr J. Davies, Director, Film and Library Section, Cultural Affairs Branch Mr P. Ryan, Director, Collections and Historical Section, Cultural Affairs Branch

Mr T. Fowler, Assistant Director, Finance and Services Mr M. P yan, Senior Project Officer, Administration of theN ational Estate

Office of Women's Affairs: Ms G. Pincus, Acting Assistant Secretary Ms C. Wiltshire, Senior Executive Officer, National Women's Advisory Council

Ms L. Lake, Project Officer

Territories Division: Mr A. W. McCasker, First Assistant Secretary

67

Mr R. J. McArthur, Acting Assistant Secretary, Indian Ocean Territories Branch Mr H. Plant, Assistant Secretary, Other Territories Branch Mr W. N. Syrette, Director, Pacific Ocean Territories Section Mr W. J. Young, Acting Officer in Charge, Island Management and Oper­

ations Section Sport and Recreation Branch: Mr G. Dempster, Assistant Secretary Australian Archives:

Professor R. G. Neale, Director-General Mr B. Hodgson, Acting Executive Officer, Administration Australian War Memorial: Mr N.J. Flanagan, Director

Dr A. Bos, Head, Conservation Australia Council: Mr J. Cameron; General Manager Mr R. Taylor, Deputy Executive Officer (Finance)

Mr B. Claremont, Director, Administration Australian Film and Television School: Ms G. M. Carnegie, Head, Administration and Services Mr M. Tan, Executive Officer (Finance) Australian Film Commission:

Mr K. F. Watts, Chairman Mr B. J. Gittings, Secretary Mr T. P. Read, Head of Production Mr A. T. S. Martin, Executive Officer National Library of Australia:

Mr A. Ellis, Assistant Director-General Mr G. Clark, Director, Management Services Australian National Gallery: Dr J. Mollison, Director

Mr R. Deane, Acting Secretary and Manager Mr G. Andrews, Acting Assistant Director, Administration' Australian Heritage Commission: Dr J. Kerr, Assistant Director Department of Finance:

Mr J. A. Landrigan, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 330-Administrative $9 766 000

Division 332-Australian Archives $4 947 200 Division 334-War Memorial $1 908 800 Division 335-Christmas Island $3 139 500 Division 336-Cocos (Keeling) Islands $975 700 Division 33 7-Norfolk Island $166 800 Division 338-Australia Council $26 300 000 Division 340-Australian Film and Television School $3 684 000 Division 342-Australian Film Commission $9 227 000 Division 344-National Library $15 188 000

68

Division 346-National Gallery $7 475 000 Division 348-Heritage Commission $520 000 Document B Division 860-Capital Works and Services $1 980 000

Division 861-Payments to or for the States and the N.T. $5 870 000 Division 862-0ther Services $650 000 The following sums charged to the Advance to the Minister for Finance were called upon and considered: Division 340-Administrative $21 845 Division 344-Australian War Memorial $2 12 7 Division 346-Cocos (Keeling) Islands $7 532 Consideration of these matters was concluded.

4. DEPARTMENT OF THE CAPITAL TERRITORY:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of the Capital Territory: Mr D. M. Lalor, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Supply Branch

Mr C. S. Hamilton, Director, Programs and Budgets Section tv1r W. E. Lawrence, First Assistant Secretary, Legislation and Policy Co-ordination Division

Mr D. S. Lander, Assistant Secretary, Urban Affairs Branch Mr J. H. Marshall, First Assistant Secretary, Transport and Housing Division Mr J. A. Turner, Assistant Secretary, Public Transport Branch Mr J. C. McFarland, Assistant Secretary, Housing Branch Miss L. M. Webb, Director, Services Section

MrS. I. Russell, Director, Engineering Services Section Mr L. K . Webcke, Registrar, Motor Vehicles Mr K. B. Davidson, Assistant Secretary, Traffic and Transport Branch Mr D. A. Brown, Director, Personnel and Services Section

Mr P. Skinner, Director, Management Consultancy Section Mr L. L. Gillespie, City Manager Mr J. H. Herner, Assistant Secretary, Welfare Branch Mr V. F. Martisius, Assistant Secretary, Technical Services Branch

Mr J. S. Brigg, Assistant Secretary, Rates Branch Dr B. H. Pratt, Director, Conservation and Agriculture Section Mr M. W. Edgerley, Director, Forests Section Mr R. J. Murray, Director, City Parks Administration Section

Mr R. O'Connell, Assistant Secretary, Systems Branch Mr E. Mallett, Director, ADP Applications Section National Capital Development Commission: Mr R. E. Jackson, Acting Secretary and Manager

Mr B. M. Browning, Assistant Secretary, Program Management

Parliament House Construction Authority: Mr P. Leonard Mr I. Fowler Department of Finance: . . ..

Mr J. A. Landrigan, Senior Finance Officer, Accountmg and Supply DivisiOn

69

The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered:

Document A Division 210-Administrative $68 095 900 Consideration of this item was concluded.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at ·4.40 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: Present: All members of the Committee except Senators Maunsell and Primmer. Senator Ryan also attended.

70

B. R. ARCHER

Deputy Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.14

TUESDAY, 25 SEPTEMBER 1979

l. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met at 8 p.m. in Senate Com­ mittee Room No. l. The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair.

2. DEPARTMENTOFTHECAPITAL TERRITORY: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. 1. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the departmental officers listed in Minutes of Proceedings No. 13. The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered:

Document A Division 212-A.C.T. House of Assembly $327 700 Division 213-A.C.T. Police $3 369 400 Division 214-NCDC $8 206 000

Division 215-Parliament House Construction Authority $138 000 Document B Division 829-Capital Works and Services $153 023 000 Division 830-0ther Services $110 000 The following sums charged to the Advance to the Minister for Finance were called

upon and considered: Division 21 0-Administrative $46 508 Division 211-A.C.T. House of Assembly $20 116

Consideration of these matters was concluded.

3. DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND CONSTRUCTION: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of Housing and Construction:

Mr K. J. Rodda, Deputy Secretary Mr R. J. Egan, Assistant Secretary (Public Housing) Mr M. Brodrick, Principal Executive Officer (Works) Mr J. N. Barrett, Senior Project Officer (Finance)

Department of Finance: .

Mr J. A. Landrigan, Senior Finance Officer, Accountmg and Supply Division The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 350-Administrative $105 872 000

Consideration of this item was concluded.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.15 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: Present-All members of the Committee.

71

25530179-4

C. R. MA UNSELL

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.15

THURSDAY, 27 SEPTEMBER 1979

I. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met at 2.15 p.m. in Senate Com­ mittee Room No. I. The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair.

2. DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND CONSTRUCTION:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science and the Environment, accompanied by the departmental officers listed in Minutes of Proceedings No. 14. The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A

Division 352-Repairs and Maintenance $64 210 000 Division 354-Homes Savings Grants $75 000 000 Division 355-Housing Allowance Experiment $15 000 Division 358-Glebe Estate Rehabilitation $730 000 Division 245-Buildings and Works (Defence) $76 840 000 Division 246-Repairs and Maintenance (Defence) $61 715 000 Division 248-Housing for Servicemen $1 507 000 Document B

Division 865-Capital Works and Services $108 100 000 Division 866-Payment to or for the States and the N.T. $274 000 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.

3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee met in private session and deliberated upon its report to the Senate. The Chairman stated that a draft report incorporating the suggestions made by members would be circulated to the members of the Committee for their final consideration prior to the presentation of the report to

the Senate.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 3.42 p.m. 5. ATTENDANCE: Present-All members of the Committee.

72

C. R. MA UNSELL

Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E REPORT TO THE SENATE

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE REPORT

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

Estimates Committee E has the honour to report to the Senate.

l. On 11 September the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates for the year ending 1979-80 and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Min­ ister for Finance for the year ending 30 June 1979, relating to the following Departments:

Aboriginal Affairs Industry and Commerce Transport Administrative Services

Productivity

2. The Committee has considered the Estimates of Expenditure and Departmen­ tal Expenditure and the Advance to the Minister for Finance and has received expla­ nations of them from the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, the Minister for Social Se­ curity and from officers of the Departments concerned. A copy of the Hansard report of the evidence is tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with the Ap­

propriation Bill (No. 1) 1979-80, Appropriation Bill (No.2) 1979-80 and the State­ ment of Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79.

3. The Committee wishes to draw the attention of the Senate to the following:

(a) Estimates Committee B in its report to the Senate in May 1979 on the Ad­ ditional Estimates 1979-80 recommended that two matters relating to the provision of Commonwealth cars should be pursued by the Estimates Com­ mittee to which the Estimates of the Department of Administrative Services

are referred during the Budget Sittings. The matters were taken up by Esti­ mates Committee E.

(i) The Committee was informed that question of the availability of cars for the judiciary and presidential members of the Conciliation and Ar­ bitration Commission is still under consideration by the Government.

(ii) Explanations relating to the costs of 'self-drive' Commonwealth cars vis a vis the cost of Commonwealth and other cars with driver are to be found in evidence given on 21 September 1979 by officers of the Department of Administrative Services ( see Hansard, pages 351-353 ).

(b) During the consideration of Estimates relating to the Department of Admin­ istrative Services the question of the availability of West Block for use by the Parliament was raised. The Committee was informed that West Bl ock would be reoccupied as office accommodation over the next three ye ars , after refur­

bishing and restoration, but that no decision has yet been taken on the ques­ tion of who will occupy the building. It is understood that West Block has been reserved for use by Executive departments. The Committee was also informed that the Hotel Kurrajong has been offered to the Parliament in lieu of the accommodation at present occupied by Parliamentary Departments in

the Hotel Canberra. West Block is the building in closest proximity to Parlia­ ment House. The Committee endorses action taken by the Presiding Officers

75

to obtain the use of West Block for Parliamentary accommodation. It con­ siders it most regrettable that the Government has not acceded to the re­ quests of the Presiding Officers on this matter. The Committee recommends: (i) That the Government be again requested to allocate West Block to

Parliament for its use pending building of the New and Permanent Parliament House; and (ii) That refurbishing and restoration of the building be undertaken with­ out delay, after consultation with Parliamentary Departments.

4. The Committee expresses its thanks to the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, the Minister for Social Security, and officers of the Departments concerned for the full and frank explanations that they gave to the Committee. The Committee also con­ gratulates the Departments concerned on the comprehensive nature of the written ex­ planations received which contributed greatly to the Committee's being able to carry out its allotted task expeditiously.

76

M. TOWNLEY

Chairman

Estiniates Coniniittee E Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.13

THURSDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.15 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Townley) took the Chair.

2. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The resolution of the Senate of 11 September 1979 relating to the referral to Estimates Committee E of Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the year ending 30 June 1980 and departmental expen­ diture under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1979

was reported.

3. PROCEDURE OF THE COMMITTEE: The Chairman made a Statement relat­ ing to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and departmental expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance and stated that, pursuant to the Order of the Senate of 11 Sep­

tember 1979, the Committee would consider the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the service of the year ending 30 June 1980 and departmental expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1979, relating to the following Departments:

Division

Document* Page N o. Department Amount

$

A 10-12 120-125 Aboriginal Affairs 103 538 000

B 6 811-813 Aboriginal Affairs 36 903 000

A 86-87 380-382 Industry and Commerce 20 622 000

B 18 878 Industry and Commerce 36 000

A 122-124 655-662 Transport 329 679 000

B 24-25 957-958 Transport 8 1455 000

A 13-22 130-160 Administrative Services 333 435 000

A 43 250 Rent (Defence ) 42 5 15 000

A 43 252 Acquisition of Sites and Buildings

(Defence ) 7 104 000

'\ 43 253 Furniture and Fittings ( Def ence) 5 060 000

B 6-8 817-819 Administrative Services 33 575 000

A 104-106 522-528 Productivity 13 8 454 000

B 2 1-22 921 Productivity 12 048 000

* Docum ent A-' Particulars of Proposed Expenditure fo r th e Se rvice of th e Year Ending on 30 June ·

* Document B- ' Particulars of Cert ain Propos ed Expenditure in Res pe ct of th e Yea r En d in g on 30 June 19 80 '.

79

Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79

Page in Document* Division No. Department Amount

4

12 5

13 II

120 655

130-291 819 523

Aboriginal Affairs Transport Administrative Services Administrative Services Productivity . . . .

$

85 396 735 626 323 335 300 968

7 858

* Document- ' Advance to the Minister for Finance-Statement of Heads of Expenditure and the amounts charged thereto, pursuant to section 36A of the Audit Act 1901 , for the Year Ended 30 June 1979'.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPENDI­ TURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978 - 79 -DEPARTMENTOF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, ac­ companied by the following officers:

Department of Aboriginal Affairs: Mr J.P. M. Long, Deputy Secretary Mr C. N. Perkins, Deputy Secretary Mr L.A. J. Malone, First Assistant Secretary, Policy One Division Ms A. Somers, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Policy Two Division M r P. J. Sullivan, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division Mr N.J. L. Jansz, Assistant Secretary, Program and Budget Branch Mr W . E. Miller, Acting Director, Program and Budget Branch Mr R. A. Jenkins, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Mr J. F. Schuler, Senior Manager, Aboriginal Hotels Air Commodore R. D . Cooper, Company Secretary, Applied Ecology Pty Ltd

M r T. Wheeler, Executive Officer, Aboriginal Loans Commission

Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Minister made a statement relating to the Proposed Expenditure for the Depart­ ment of Aboriginal Affairs.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 19 79- 80: Divisions 120 - 125 - Department of Aboriginal Affairs (Document A) Divisions 811 - 813 - Departme nt of Aboriginal Affairs (Document B)

Advance to the Minister for Finance /978-79: Division 120 - Department of Aboriginal Affairs

The Committee concluded its consideration of Propose d Expenditure and expendi­ ture under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs.

80

'i PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979 - 80 -DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, ac­ companied by the following officers:

Department of Industry and Commerce: Mr A. H. Steele, Assistant Secretary, Heavy Engineering and Shipbuilding Branch Mr L. Early, Assistant Secretary, Consultation and Liaison Branch Mr B. Meredyth, Assistant Secretary, Tourist Industry Branch Mr B. J. Maloney, Acting Assistant Secretary, Commerce and Small Business

Branch Dr K. A Tucker, Assistant Director, Bureau of Industry Economics Mr K. McDonald, General Manager, Australian Tourist Commission Mr J. Brace, Assistant General Manager, Australian Tourist Commission

Mr N. McChesney, Director Corporate Planning, Australian Tourist Commission Mr K . G. Hocking, Assistant Secretary, Management Services and Secretariat Branch Mr K. Dundo, Acting Director, Finance and Services Section Mr L. Milkovits, Director, Secretariat and Information Services Mr R. G. Harlock, Acting Finance Officer

Mr C. McDougall, Estimates Officer

Department of Finance: Mr J. Wojtaszak, Acting Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Division 380- 382 - Department oflndustry and Commerce (Document A) Division 878-Department oflndustry and Commerce (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of Proposed Expenditure for the Depart­ ment of Industry and Commerce.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978-79-DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, ac­ companied by the following officers: Depart menr of Transport: Mr G . A Birch , First Assistant Secreta ry, Finance and Com mercia!

M r J. E. Schofield. First Ass ista nt Secreta ry, Airways Opera tions Mr P. B. Eccles, First Assistant Secretary, Coasta l Services Mr G . 0 'Halloran, Director of Finance, Bud ge t Mr K. Smith, Ass istant Secretary, Fina nce

Mr R. C. O 'Neill , Ass istant Secretary, Esta blishm ent a nd Perso nn el Mr J. W. Spencer, Assistant Secreta ry, Eco nom ic Po li cy and Invest me nt P la nning Mr J . S. L a tham, Acting First Ass ista nt Secreta ry, Roads

Mr I. R. Grigor, Acting First Assistant Secre ta ry, La nd Tra nsport Po licy Mr R. W. Wyers, Actin g Deputy Director, Bureau o fTra nspo rt Eco no mi cs

81

Mr B. L. Mitchell, Director, Financial Studies Mr L. Hutchins, Budget Officer, Australian National Railways Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 19 79-80: Divisions 655-662-Department of Transport (Document A) Divisions 957-958-Department ofTransport (Document B) Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79:

Division 655-Department of Transport The Committee concluded its consideration of Proposed Expenditure and expendi­ ture under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of Transport.

7. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.12 p.m. until Friday, 21 September at 10.00 a.m . .

8. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Bishop, Elstob, Jessop, MacGibbon, Mcintosh and Townley ( 6 ). Senators Keeffe and McClelland also attended.

82

M. TOWNLEY

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.14

FRIDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 1979

l. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.02 a.m. The Chairman( Senator Townley) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPEN­ DITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978-79-DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, ac­ companied by the following officers:

Department of Administrative Services: Mr A. R . Palmer, Deputy Secretary Mr D. R . White, First Assistant Secretary Mr D. M. Lenihan, Assistant Secretary, Policy and Executive Projects Branch Mr V. K . Peak, Principal Executive Officer, Transitory Accommodation Sec-

tion, Policy and Executive Projects Branch MrS. A . Wenger, Principal Executive Officer, Grants and Assistance Section, Grants Authorities and General Branch Ministerial and Management Services Division:

Mr B. E. Hinchcliffe, Acting First Assistant Secretary Miss M. P. Lance, Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary and Ministerial Services Branch Mr T. T. McElroy, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and General Services

Branch Mr P. D. Priestly, Director, Estimates and Expenditure Control Section, Finance and General Services Branch Property and Survey Division:

Mr J. H . MacDonnell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Property Branch Mr A. A. Hillier, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Operations Branch Mr J. W . Sleep, Deputy Surveyor-General Transport and Storage Division:

Mr R. W . B. Davies, First Assistant Secretary Mr J. J. Mason, Director, Finance and Administration Information Services Division: Mr P. A. Nott, First Assistant Secretary

Mr W. S. Brooks, Assistant Secretary, Australian Information Services Bra nch Mr J. A . C. Thompson, Assistant Secretary, Australia n Government Advertis-ing Service Branch Purchasing Division:

Mr P. J. Dawson, Assistant Secretary, Special Projects Bra nch Mr P. G. Woodham, Principal Executive Officer, Operations Branch

Australian Electoral Office: Mr H. R. Hegarty, Assistant Secretary, Development

83

Mr D.P. Reynolds, Director, Management Services Mr J. C. Womersley, Director, Information and Education Commonwealth Police: Mr R. Farmer, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Crime Intelligence

Mr M.P. Webber, Director, Administration Australian Federal Police: Mr W . J. Ireland, Liaison Officer, Office of the Commissioner Australian Capital Territory Police:

Mr J. C. Johnson, Deputy Commissioner Grants Commission: Mr A. A. Glasson, Secretary Commonwealth Accommodation and Catering Services Ltd:

Mr J. G. Wickens, General Manager Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Minister made a statement relating to the Proposed Expenditure for the Depart­ ment of Administrative Services. The Chairman called on the following Diyisions for consideration:

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 19 79-80: Divisions 130-160-Department of Administrative Services (Document A) Division 250-Rent (Defence) (Document A) _ Division 252-Acquisition of Sites and Buildings (Defence) (Document A) Division 253-Furniture and Fittings (Defence) (Document A) Divisions 817 -819---.,.-Department of Administrative Services (Document B)

Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79: Divisions 130-291 and 819-Department of Administrative Services

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure and Expen­ diture under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of Adminis­ trative Services.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978-79-DEPARTMENT OF PRODUCTIVITY:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, ac­ companied by the following officers: Department of Productivity: Mr H . J. Ryan, Deputy Secretary

Mr M. I. Homewood, First Assistant Secretary, Finance and Management Ser­ vices Division Mr K. McKnown, Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch, Finance and Manage-ment Services Division Mr W. M. Drysdale, Director (Programs and Estimates), Finance and Ma n­

agement Services Division Mr R . Tobias, First Assistant Secretary, Productivity Development Divisio n Mrs L. Timms, Acting Assistant Secretary, Human Relations Branch , Working Environment Division Mr J. Froude, Assistant Secretary, Physical Working Environment Bra nch ,

Working Environment Division Mr K. R. Williams, First Assistant Secretary, Policy and Research Division

84

Mr V. R. Coleman, Assistant Controller, Aircraft Branch, Aircraft, Guided Weapons and Electronics Supply Division Mr J. Crennan, Principal Executive Officer, Aircraft, Guided Weapons and Electronics Supply Division Mr R. H. Williams, Deputy Controller, Munitions Supply Division

Mr J. C. Comerford, Principal Executive Officer, Munitions Supply Division Mr J. Forestier, Senior Assistant Commissioner (Business Management), Patent Trade Marks and Design Office Department of Finance:

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration. Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 19 79-80: Divisions 522-528-Department of Productivity (Document A)

Division 921-Department of Productivity (Document B) Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79: Division 523-Department of Productivity The Committee concluded its consideration of Proposed Expenditure and expendi­

ture under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the Department of Productivity.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 1.10 p.m. till a date and hour to be fixed.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Elstob, Jessop, MacGibbon, Mcintosh and Townley ( 5 ).

85

M. TOWNLEY

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. IS

TUESDAY, 9 OCTOBER 1979

I. MEETING: The Committee met at 6.00 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Townley) took the Chair.

2. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered a draft Report to the Senate. Debate ensued. Resolved: That the Report be adopted.

3. MINUTES: The Minutes of the meetings held on 20 and 21 September 1979 were read and confirmed.

4. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION: The Chairman laid on the Table certain ad­ ditional information received in response to questions asked during the examination of Departmental Estimates 1979-80.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.10 p.m. till a date and hour to be fixed.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Bishop, Elstob, Jessop, MacGibbon, Mcintosh and Townley ( 6 ).

86

M. TOWNLEY

Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee F has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

l. On ll September 1979, the Senate referred to the Committee the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the year 1979-80, and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79, relating to the following Departments:

Defence National Development Postal and Telecommunications Business and Consumer Affairs

2. The Committee has considered the Proposed Expenditure and, where appli­ cable, expenditure items under the Advance to the Minister for Finance. Explanations have been received from the Ministers and officers representing the Departments con­ cerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence

taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with the Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1979-80, the Appropriation Bill (No.2) 1979-80 and the consideration in Committee of the Whole of the Advance to the Minister for Finance. Certain answers to questions which were deferred and subsequently given in

writing since the Committee's last hearings will be tabled in the Senate and incor­ porated in the final Hansard report of the Committee's hearings.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters arising from its considerations:

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE (a) Division 230-Australian Defence Force-Subdivision I Salaries and Pay­ ments in the Nature of Salary During the Committee's examination of this item, reference was made to

the work value investigations into salaries and allowances of the Defence Forces which have been in progress since 1972. The Department conceded that the time taken to effect the overall investigation- nearly seven years- is a matter of concern to members of the

Defence forces. The Committee shares this concern and expresses the view that the m atter should be resolved as soon as possible and that any additional remuneration to which the Defence Forces are entitled following the co mpletio n of the in­

vestigation be passed on without delay.

(b) Division 2 3 I - The Defence Force Ombudsman (i) During the examination of this item , the Committee was advised th a t the role of the Defence Force Ombudsman has been carried o ut by the Executive Director of the Ombudsm an's Office who also perform s the

duties of the Assistant Secretary, Natural Disasters Orga nisa ti on. Th e appointment of an independent and parr-time Defence Force Ombudsman which ·.vas anticipated las t financia l year has not ta ken place. The failure to appoint such an officer is o f concern to th e Com­

mittee and should be remedied at th e earlies t possible opportunity. (ii) On further questioning, the Committee wa s informed that th e number of complaints received by yo un ge r members of th e Forc es' lower ranks were propo rtio natel y le ss than th ose received fr o m o ffice r a nd

89

senior non-commissioned officers. In explanation, it was suggested that many of the recruits entering the Forces were unaware of the existence of the Office. The Committee is therefore concerned that the Department should ensure that information concerning the role of the Office is disseminated as widely as possible and, in particular, that such information is brought to the attention of junior ranks at an early stage of their service career.

POSTAL AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT Division 909-Capital Works and Services-Subdivision 2 National Broadcasting and Television Service Presentation of Capital Expenditure Figures

During the Committee's examination of this item, it was proposed to the Aus­ tralian Broadcasting Commission that the Committee's consideration of departmen­ tal estimates would be assisted if the explanatory notes provided greater detail on the overall costs of projects included under capital works services. In reply, the Com­

mission could see little difficulty in acceding to the Committee's suggestion. The Committee is therefore of the opinion that the Committee of Estimates Com­ mittee Chairmen give consideration to amending the guidelines for departmental ex­ planatory notes to include details which refer to capital expenditure of a continuing nature. In particular, these should include:

(i) estimated total project cost; (ii) estimated expenditure in the current financial year; and (iii) balance of estimated cost remaining. The Committee records its appreciation of the explanations provided by the Ministers and departmental officers during the Committee's hearings.

90

S. J. COLLARD

Chairman

Estiinates ConiiDittee F Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS N(). 9

THURSDAY, 24 MAY 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 6.05 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Thomas) took the Chair.

2. NORTHERN TERRITORY PETROL SUBSIDY: The Committee con­ sidered an answer to a question supplied by the Department of Business and Con­ sumer Affairs on petrol subsidy for the Northern Territory which the Department regarded as confidential. The Committee resolved that:

( 1) Since Estimates Committees are only permitted by the Standing Orders to consider departmental estimates in open session, the answer re ceived from the Department cannot be received by Estimates Committee Fin its present form. (2) The Department, through its Minister, be advised accordingly and asked to:

(a) reassess the status of the information provided; or (b) provide to the Committee, in response to Senator Gietzelt 's question, as much information as possible which is in a form which can be received by the Committee and which can satisfy the concern ex­

pressed by Senator Gietzelt on Senate Estimates Committee Hansard, pages 137 and 138 . ( 3) The Committee is of the opinion that whenever public moneys are made available to statutory authorities or private companies, information on such

appropriations should be readily available to Senate Estimates Committees.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.20 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Gietzelt, Thomas and Watson.

93

A. M.THOMAS Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F No.10

TUESDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER 1979

I. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee met at 12.45 p.m.

2. MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE: The entry in the Journals of the Senate of 13 September 1979 recording changes to the membership of Estimates Committee F was reported. The membership was then recorded as follows: Senator S.J. Collard

Senator A. T. Gietzelt Senator R. E. McAuliffe SenatorS. M. Ryan Senator J. 0. W. Watson Senator the Rt Hon. R. G. Withers

3. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: On the motion of Senator Watson, Senator Collard was elected Chairman.

4. REFERENCES TO COMMITTEE: The Resolution of the Senate of II Sep­ tember 1979 referring the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for 1979-80 and the Advance to the Minister for Finance for year ended 30 June 1979 was reported. Departments for examination were given as follows:

Defence* Business and Consumer Affairs* National Development* Postal and Communications ( * Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978- 79 to be considered.)

5. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes ofthe Meeting held on 24 May 1979 were read, amended and confirmed.

6. RESEARCH SERVICE OF SECRETARIAT: The extent of requests to provide research for the use of the Committee was outlined. A further request for research was made.

7. ADJOURNMENT: The meeting adjourned at 1.10 p.m. till a day and hour to be determined.

8. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, McAuliffe, Ryan, Watson and Withers.

94

S. J. COLLARD

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.ll THURSDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 1979

I. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.17 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Collard) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending 30 June 1980, the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the year ending 30 June 1980 and the

Advance to the Minister for Finance for 1978-79. He stated that, pursuant to the Res­ olution of the Senate on 11 September 1979, the Committee would consider the fol­ lowing departmental estimates and Heads of Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance.

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 38-43 230-242 Defence** 2 464 764 000

A 88-91 430-436 National Development 65 276 000

B 18-19 883-885 National Development 102 254 000

A 30-33 195-202 Business and Consumer Affairs 113 836 000

B 9 826-827 Business and Consumer Affairs 2 866 000

A 92-94 480-486 Postal and Telecommunications 196 404 000

B 20 909-911 Postal and Telecommunications 15 750 000

*Document A-' Particu1ars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1980'. * Document B-' Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1980 '. **Excluding items under the control of the Departments of Housing and Construction; and

Administrative Services (Divisions 245, 246 and 248; and 250, 252 and 253 ).

Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79

Page in Division

Document* No. Department Amount

$

6-7 230-241 Defence 17 42 7 096

10 430-431 National Development 67 01 0

13 842 - 887 National Development 77 969

6 195-199 Business and Consumer Affairs 596 0 13

*Document-' Advance to the Minister for Finance-Statement of He ads of Expenditure and the amounts charged thereto, pursuant to section 36A of the Audit Act 190 1 for the Ye ar Ended 30 June 1979'.

95

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978-79-DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education and Minis­ ter representing the Minister for Defence, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Defence:

Mr W. H. Boreham, Director-General Supply-Navy Mr K. B. Breynard, Assistant General Manager, Defence Communications System (Planning and Programming) Brigadier I. R. W. Brumfield, Director-General, Service Conditions Mr K. W. Buckley, Assistant Secretary, Defence Force Industrial Captain R. R. Calder, Director, Naval Weapons Design Brigadier H. J. Coates, Director-General, Operations and Plans -Army Brigadier G. F. Cohen, Director-General, Training and Education Policy Mr L.A. Davey, Assistant Secretary, Defence Facilities Program Management Air Commodore R. D. Egerton, Director-General Supply-Air Force

Major-General D . F. W. Engel, Chief of Materiel-Army Mr R. H. Englund, AssistantSecretary, Civil Personnel Air Vice-MarshalS. D. Evans, Chief of Air Force Operations Captain P. A. Hardy, Deputy Chief of Naval Materiel Mr T. K . Hickman, Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy and Requirements Air Vice-Marshal H. A. Hughes, Chief of Air Force Materiel

Mr M. T. Hyland, First Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budgets Mr M. H. Ives, Assistant Secretary, Financial Programs Mr H. P. Jones, Assistant Secretary, Science and Technology Administration Captain 1. M. Kelly, Director of Naval Operations ,Mr A. F. Kent, Assistant Secretary, Project Planning and Evaluation (DIMP)

Mr K . T. Lyon, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning-Air Force Mr R. D. Martin, Assistant Secretary, Natural Disasters Organisations Lieutenant-Colonel G. M. McCann, Staff Officer Supply Operations-Army Mr L.A. McGee, Assistant Secretary, Quality Assurance and Engineering, Re-

sources Policy Brigadier N. 1. McGuire, Director-General, Movement and Transport Mr P. F. McNamara, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning-Navy Lieutenant-Colonel R. W. Nash, Staff Officer (Plans) to Surgeon-Gene.-al De-

fence Force Mr G. E. Nicholls, Assistant Secretary, Naval Technical Services Mr J. S. 0 'Neill, Assistant Secretary, Budgets and Estimates (General and Co-ordination) Air Commodore T. C. Owen, Director-General, Recruiting

Brigadier F. N. Paramor, Director-General, Joint Plans and Operations Mr T. J. Parker, Assistant Secretary, Administrative Services Mr A. Sharpe, Deputy Chief Defence Scientist Mr T. E. Sullivan, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning-Army Dr A. Taloni, Assistant Secretary, Project Co-ordination (Computer Services) Mr G. M. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Industrial Development Air Vice-MarshalS. R. White, ChiefofSupply

Mr D. A. Whitty, Assistant Secretary, International Policy ( PNG and Defence Co-operation Programs) Mr M. T. Murn, Chief Executive Officer, Pay and Allowances

96

Department of Finance: Mr T. 1. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer

The Chairman called on the following Divisions of Proposed Expenditure and Heads of Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for consideration: Divisions 230-242-Department of Defence (Document A) Divisions 230-241 - Department of Defence (Document-Advance to the Minis-

ter for Finance)

The Committee concluded its examination of items for the Department of Defence, subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80 AND ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978-79-DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable P. D. Durack, Attorney-General and Minister representing the Minister for National Development, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of National Development: Mr A. R. Burdon, Principal Executive Officer, Electricity Section Mr D. 1. Ives, Head, National Energy Office Mr W. H. Ratcliffe, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch

Mr T. McMahon, First Assistant Secretary, Energy Policy Division Mr M.S. Farrell, First Assistant Secretary, Energy Research and Development Division Mr R. Hopkins, Assistant Secretary, Energy Research and Development

Division Mr D. 1. Guppy, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Oil and Gas Division Mr M. N . Lawrence, Assistant Secretary, Oil and Gas Division Mr P. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Uranium and General Division

Mr J. Starkey, Assistant Secretary, Uranium and General Division Mr T. Roberts, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Regional Development Division Mr A. Manderson, First Assistant Secretary, Water Division Mr C. Veenstra, Assistant Director (Survey), Division of National Mapping Dr A. R. Jensen, Acting Assistant Director (Operations), Bureau of Mineral

Resources

Australian Atomic Energy Commission: Dr G. L. Miles, Deputy Director (Operations), Research Establishments Dr D. G. Walker, Chief Scientist, Scientific Services Mr R. Baker, Head, Management Accounting The Pipeline Authority:

Mr G. F. W. Noble, Finance Manager Mr G. J. Jones, Budgetary Controller Department of Finance: Mr T. J. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions of Proposed Expenditure, and Heads of Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for consideration:

Divisions 430-436* - Department of National Development (Document A) Divisions 883 - 885 *- Department of National Development (Document B)

97

Divisions 430-431-Department of National Development (Document­ Advance to Minister for Finance) (*Excluding Divisions 436 and 883-2-Australian Atomic Energy Commission.) The Commission concluded its examination of items for the Department ofN ational Development (excluding those applicable to the Australian Atomic Energy Com­ mission), subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.43 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Gietzelt, Ryan, Watson and Withers. Senator the Honourable Douglas McClelland was also in attendance.

98

S. 1. COLLARD

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.12

MONDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER 1979

l. MEETING: The ·Committee met at 10.04 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Collard) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80-DEPARTMENT OF POSTAL AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and Minister representing the Minister for Post and Telecommunications, ac­ companied by the following officers: Postal and Telecommunications Department

Mr E. E. Payne, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr J.P. Coleman, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Policy Division Mr A. Guster, First Assistant Secretary, National Satellite Working Group Mr P. Westerway, Assistant Secretary (Radio), Broadcasting Policy Division

Mr G . Forrest, Acting Engineer, Class 4, Broadcasting Engineering Division Mr J. McPhee, Principal Technical Officer, Radio Frequency Management Division

Mr B. Foster, Acting Director, Management Services Branch Mr G. King, Acting Senior Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Mr D. M. Large, Acting Chief Executive Officer, Policy Division Australian Telecommunications Commission:

Mr E. R . Banks, General Manager, Customer Services Mr D. H. Hansen, General Manager, Accounting and Supply Mr G. L. Crew, Assistant Chief Engineer, Construction Mr K. L. Williams, Manager, Field Services Branch Overseas Telecommunications Commission (Australia):

Mr G . F. Maltby, Assistant General Manager (Operations ) Australian Broadcasting Commission: Mr G. White, Assistant General Manager (Television)

Miss B. Parsons, Acting Assistant General Manager ( Radio) Mr K . Bourke, Controller of Engineering Mr G. Reynolds, Federal Director of Television Production Services Mr J. Newsom, Director of Radio Resources

Mr W. Funnell, Controller of Finance Mr R. McCormick, Federal Budget Officer Australian Broadcasting Tribunal: Mr B. Connolly, Secretary

Mr C. J. Answerth, Senior Executive Officer Mr M. Payton, Finance Officer Special Broadcasting Service: Mr W. R. Watson, Director, Television

Mr G. P. Hudson, Manager, Financial Planning Mr K. W. Power, Chief Planning Engineer

99

Australian Postal Commission: Miss 1. M. Spiller, Acting Secretary Mr T. E. Clarke, Acting General Manager, Finance Mr G. L. Braisier, Acting Manager, Finance and Accounting Mr J. Holt, General Manager, Marketing Services . Mr 1. Hattam, Acting General Manager, Mail Network Project Mr M. J. Thompson, Director, Radio Mr C. C. Campbell, Acting Assistant Executive Officer Mr E. Lembrik, Officer in Charge, Personnel and Finance

Department of Finance: Mr T. J. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer

The Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 480- 486-Department of Postal and Telecommunications (Document A) Division 909-911-Department of Postal and Telecommunications (Document B) The Committee concluded its examination of proposed expenditure for the Depart­ ment of Postal and Telecommunications subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979-80-DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and Minister representing the Minister for National Development, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of National Development Mr W. H. Ratcliff, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr P. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Uranium and General Division Mr J. Starkey, Assistant Secretary, Uranium and General Division

Australian Atomic Energy Commission: Dr G. L. Miles, Deputy Director (Operations), Research Establishments Dr D. G. Walker, Chief Scientist, Scientific Services Mr R. Baker, Head, Management Accounting

The Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration: Division 436-Department of National Development- Australian Atomic Energy Commission (Document A) Divisions 883-5-Department of National Development-Australian Atomic En­

ergy Commission (Document B)

The Committee concluded its examination of proposed expenditure for the Depart­ ment of National Development.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1979- 80 AND AD­ VANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1978-79-DEPARTMENT OF BUSINESS AND CONSUMER AFFAIRS:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and Senator the Honourable P. D. Durack, Attorney-General and Minister represent-100

ing the Minister for Business and Consumer Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Business and Consumer Affairs Mr D. 1. Roche, First Assistant Secretary, Management Services Mr F. I. Kelly, First Assistant Secretary, Operations Mr A. B. Luckman, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Mr H. Bates, Commissioner, Federal Bureau of Narcotics Mr J. L. Reilly, Director, Finance and Property

Mr M. Mikk, Assistant Director, Finance Mr K . Stilling, Assistant Secretary, Automatic Data Mr N. Brown, Registrar, Prices Justification Tribunal Mr G. Hoschke, Chief Inspector, Bounties Industries Assistance Commission:

Mr A. G. Koukoulas, Assistant Commissioner, Services Mr K. Mourant, Director, Management Services Trade Practices Commission: MrS. Malouf, Secretary

Mr M. Davies, Finance Officer Department of Finance: Mr T. 1. Moloney, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 195-202-Department of Business and Consumer Affairs (Document A) Divisions 826-82 7 -Department of Business and Consumer Affairs (Document B) Divisions 195-199-Department of Business and Consumer Affairs (Document-

Advance to Minister for Finance) The Committee concluded its consideration of items for the Department of Business and Consumer Affairs, subject to undertakings to provide additional information.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 3.30 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Ryan and Watson. Senator Walsh also took part in the Com­ mittee's proceedings.

Confirmed.

S. J. COLLARD

Chairman

101

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.13

TUESDAY, 10 OCTOBER 1979

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 12.45 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Collard) took the Chair.

2. On the Motion of Senator Ryan the minutes of the previous meetings on 18 , 20 and 24 September 1979 were confirmed.

3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the draft Report of the Committee. On the Motion of Senator Gietzelt the Report was adopted.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.55 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members were present: Senators Collard, Gietzelt and Ryan. Certified Correct.

25530179-L

102

S. J. COLLARD

Chairman