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Estimates Senate Committees - Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure - Reports from Estimates Committees A, B, C, D, E and F, together with respective Hansard records of the Committees’ proceedings for year - 1977-78


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Parliamentary Paper No. 221/1977

The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A,B,C, D,EandF

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Estimates

1977-78

Brought up and ordered to be printed 13 October 1977

The Commonwealth Government Printer Canberra 1978 l"Y

Printed by Authority by the Commonwealth Government Printer

CONTENTS

Page

1. Resolutions of the Senate-21 April 1977 3

2. Estimates Committee A-Report 7

Minutes of Proceedings 1977-6 September 1977 11

12 September 1977 . 14

15 September 1977 . 16

16 September 1977 . 21

6 October 1977 24

3. Estimates Committee B-Report 27

Minutes of Proceedings 1977-6 September 1977 31

13 September 1977 . 35

6 October 1977 38

4. Estimates Committee C-Report 41

Minutes of Proceedings 1977-6 September 1977 47

12 September 1977 . 49

15 September 1977 . 51

20 September 1977 . 54

21 September 1977 . 56

5 October 1977 57

11 October 1977 58

5. Estimates Committee D-Report 61

Minutes of Proceedings 1977-8 September 1977 65

15 September 1977 . 68

22 September 1977 . 71

6 October 1977 72

6. Estimates Committee E-Report 75

Minutes of Proceedings 1977-8 September 1977 85

13 September 1977 . 87

20 September 1977 . 88

22 September 1977 . 90

4 October 1977 91

6 October 1977 93

7. Estimates Committee F-Report 97

Minutes of Proceedings 1977-8 September 1977 103

13 September 1977 . 107

20 September 1977 . 109

11 October 1977 110

RESOLUTIONS OF THE SENATE

RESOLUTION PASSED ON 21 APRIL 1977

Reference to Estimates Committees: Senator Carrick, by leave, moved-( 1) That the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1977 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30

June 1977 be referred herewith to Estimates Committees for examination and report. (2) That the Committees deal with departmental estimates as follows : Estimates Committee A

Department of Administrative Services Parliament Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet Department of National Resources Department of Foreign Affairs

Department of Defence Estimates Committee B Department of Industry and Commerce Department of Overseas Trade

Department of the Treasury Department of Finance Department of Primary Industry Estimates Committee C

Department of Education Department of Transport Postal and Telecommunications Department Department of Environment, Housing and Community Development Estimates Committee D

Department of Social Security Department of Health Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs Department of Aboriginal Affairs Estimates Committee E

Department of Science Department of the Northern Territory Department of Construction Department of the Capital Territory Estimates Committee F

Department of Veterans' Affairs Department of Employment and Industrial Relations Attorney-General's Department Department of Business and Consumer Affairs

Department of Productivity (3) That the Committees report to the Senate on or before Tuesday, 24 May 1977. Debate ensued. Question-put and passed.

3

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE .A REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMIITEE A

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee A has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 25 August 1977, the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates for the year 1977-78 relating to the following Departments: Parliament Administrative Services

Prime Minister and Cabinet National Resources Foreign Affairs Defence

2. The Committee considered the Estimates and received explanations from the President of the Senate (in relation to the Parliamentary Departments), the Minister for Administrative Services and officers of the Departments. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and report of the evidence · taken by the

Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1977-78 and Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 19'77-78.

3. Additional written replies received after the Committee hearings are included as an Appendix to the Report. A number of other written replies are still awaited by the Committee'.

4. The Committee wishes to draw attention to the following: (a) Senators will recall that this Committee suggested the procedure whereby Explanatory Notes would be made available to Senators as early as practicable to enable a preliminary examination of the notes by

Committees in private session, prior to the public examination of the Estimates. The Committee has in the past noted with pleasure the response to its suggestion, but now feels that the presentation to the Senate of depart­

mental Explanatory Notes should be regularised. The Committee proposes to the Senate that the Government be called on to give an undertaking to table the Explanatory Notes on the day immediately following the presentation of the Appropriation Bills to the Parliament. (b) The Committee still finds itself concerned at the lateness in the

presentation to the Parliament of the annual reports of some departments and statutory authorities. Whilst annual reports do not stand referred to Estimates Committees, they are nevertheless one of the tools used by the Committees in exercising their responsibility to the Senate of scrutiny of Government expenditure.

The Committee feels compelled to bring to the Senate's notice that the discharge of that responsibility is being hindered by what can only be interpreted as . a somewhat cavalier approach on the part of some Government bodies to the accountability of the Executive to the Parliament. (c) As a result of the recent transfer of the Director-General of Social

Security to the position of Secretary of the Department of the Capital Territory, the Committee noted what appears to be a conflict between

7

the Public Service Act 1922 and the Remuneration Tribunals Act 1973 (Hansard, Estimates Committee A, 6 September 1977, pp. 7-8, and 15 September 1977, pp. 499-501). The Committee reports to the Senate that the Minister for Administrative Services informed the Committee that he has sought advice from the Attorney-General as to whether the Acts are in conflict. Due to the importance of the matter the Committee urges the Minister

to inform the Senate as soon as possible of the outcome of his inquiries. (d) During its examination of the Estimates for the Department of the Senate, the Committee sought an explanation for the shortfall-of expenditure as against appropriation for the printing, binding and distribution of papers

in the year 19•76-77. The Committee was informed that all accounts for printing in progress were expected before the end of the 1976-77 financial year, but that some accounts will now be paid in the financial year 1977-78.

The Committee appreciates the difficulty which is inherent in administering this particular appropriation, as it involves an estimate to be made of likely Senate Committee activity and Papers ordered to be printed by the Parliament. Such estimates must be heavily weighted by past experience. Nevertheless, the Committee is hopeful that the current inquiry by the Joint Committee on Publications into the Parliamentary Paper series will help to alleviate the problems experienced by both the Parliament and the Australian Government Publishing Service. (e) The Committee once again must draw attention to the disparity in the

form and content of Explanatory Notes. In addition, we found that some departments still do not make sufficient effort to provide breakdowns of what might be described as 'group' amounts. The Committee is aware that other Estimates Committees are experiencing the same problem and that the Explanatory Notes of some departments have been put forward as models for standardisation. For its part, the Committee found the notes of the Department of Administrative Services most helpful.

Accordingly, the Committee now proposes that the Department of Finance review the Reports of Estimates Committees over recent years and submit to a meeting of Estimates Committee Chairmen a style of notes, embracing both form and content, which will then be used as a model by all departments and statutory authorities.

5. The Committee records its appreciation for the explanations provided by the President of the Senate, the Minister for Administrative Services and the officers of the various Departments who assisted during the examination.

6 October 1977

8

J.P. SIM Chairman

Estilnates CoiDinittee A of Proceedllags

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.4 TUESDAY, 6 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.05 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Sim) took the Chair.

2. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Resolution of the Senate of 25 August 1977 relating to the reference to the Committee of the Proposed Expenditure 1977-78 was reported.

3. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1978, and stated that pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate on 21 April 1977, the Committee would consider the following departmental

estimates:

Division

Document• Page No. Department Amount

$

A 13-25 130-161 Administrative Services 273 583 000

A 48 250 Rent (Defence) 34100000

A 48 252 Acquisition of Sites and Buildings (Defence) 6 410 000

A 48 253 Furniture and Fittings (Defence) 5 600 000

B 6--8 817 Administrative Services 40 742 000

A 6--9 101-109 Parliament 14 922 000

B 6 800 Parliament 9000

A 102-106 500-520 Prime Minister and Cabinet 93 308 000

B 21 915 Prime Minister and Cabinet 3 019 000

A 85-88 430-436 National Resources . 52 011000

B 17-18 883-886 National Resources . 89 338 000

A 69-74 315-318 Foreign Affairs 463 874 000

B 14-15 851-852 Foreign Affairs 3 758 000

A 43-47 230-241 Defence•• 1 985 091 000

* Document A-'Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1978'. • Document B-'Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978 '. ** Excluding items under control of the Departments of Construction ; Environment, Housing and Com­ munity Development; Administrative Services; and the Northern Territory (Divisions 245 and 246; 248;

250, 252 and 253 ; and 255).

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART­ MENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES:

Appearing: Senator the Right Honourable R. G. Withers, Minister for Administrative Services, accompanied by the following officers: Mr R. W. B. Davies, Acting Deputy Secretary, Ministerial and Management Services Division

Mr T. F. Paterson, First Assistant Secretary Mr D. R. White, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Office Services Branch

11

Mr N. M. Boyle, Assistant Secretary, Personnel and Establishments Branch Mr E. L. Knaus, Assistant Secretary, ADP and Executive Services Branch Ms M.P. Lance, Acting Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary and Ministerial

Services Branch Mr P. D. Priestly, Acting Director, Budget and Estimates Section, Finance and Office Services Branch Mr E. Wigley, First Assistant Secretary

Secretariat and Policy Division: Mr A. W. McCasker, First Assistant Secretary Mr D. M. Lenihan, Assistant Secretary, Policy and Projects Branch Mr K. P. Cooper, Assistant Secretary, Island Territories Branch Mr B. E. Hinchcliffe, Assistant Secretary, Grants, Authorities and

National Collections Branch

Property and Survey Division: Mr J. H. MacDonnell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Property Branch Mr R. E. McLean, Principal Executive Officer, Programming and Information Sub-section Mr D. J. Mather, Principal Executive Officer, Land Programming

Information Sub-section Mr A. A. Hillier, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Operations Branch Mr J. W. Sleep, Deputy Surveyor-General

Transport and Storage Division: Mr J. J. Mason, Acting Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch

Information Services Division: Mr P. A. Nott, First Assistant Secretary Mr W. S. Brooks, Assistant Secretary, Australian Information Service Branch Purchasing Division:

Mr A. A. Sinclair, Acting Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch I Commonwealth Fire Board: Mr R. G. Smith, Chairman Remuneration Tribunal:

Dr K. Sloane, Adviser Australian Electoral Office: Mr H. R. Hegarty, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr R. T. Coffey, Director, Management Services Branch Australian War Memorial:

Mr N. J. Flanagan, Director Australian Archives: Pro[ R. G. Neale, Director-General Commonwealth Police:

Mr L. S. J. Harper, Acting Commissioner National Library of Australia: Mr A. Ellis, Assistant Director-General Mr G. E.Clark, Director, Management Services

12

Department of Construction: Mr P. M. W. Ayres, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Department of Finance Officials: Mr B. K. Conroy, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch

Mr R. J. McAtee, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 130-160 - Department of Administrative Services {Document A )

The Committee concluded its consideration of Divisions 130-136.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.01 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Douglas McQelland, McLaren, Scott, Sibraa and Sim (5) .

13

J.P. SIM Chairman

mE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMIITEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. S

MONDAY, 12 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 12 noon. The Chairman (Senator Sim) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART­ MENTOF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES:

Appearing: Senator the Right Honourable R. G. Withers, Minister for Adminis­ trative Services, accompanied by the following officers: Mr R. W. B. Davies, Acting Deputy Secretary Ministerial and Management Services Division:

Mr T. F. Paterson, First Assistant Secretary Mr D. R. White, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Office Services Branch Mr N. M. Boyle, Assistant Secretary, Personnel and Establishments Branch Ms M. P. Lance, Acting Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary and Ministerial

Services Branch Mr T. F. Fowler, Acting Director, Budget and Estimates Section, Finance and Office Services Branch Secretariat and Policy Division:

Mr A. W. McCasker, First Assistant Secretary Mr D. M. Lenihan, Assistant Secretary, Policy and Projects Branch Mr K. P. Cooper, Assistant Secretary, Island Territories Branch Mr B. E. Hinchcliffe, Assistant Secretary, Grants, Authorities and National

Collections Branch Property and Survey Division: 1

Mr J. H. MacDonnell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Property Branch Mr R. D. Stevens, Programs Officer, Programming and Information Sub­ section Mr D. J. Mather, Principal Executive Officer, Land Programming Infor-

mation Sub-section ·

Mr A. A. Hillier, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Operations Branch Mr W. D. Kennedy, Surveyor-General Mr J. W. Sleep, Deputy Surveyor-General Transport and Storage Division:

Mr J. J. Mason, Acting Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Information Services Division: Mr P. A. Nott, First Assistant Secretary Australian War Memorial:

Mr N. J. Flanagan, Director Commonwealth Police: Mr L. S. J. Harper, Acting Commissioner

14

National Library of Australia: Mr A. Ellis, Assistant Director-General Mr G. E. Clark, Director, Management Services Department of Construction:

Mr P. M. W. Ayres, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Department of Finance Officials: Mr B. K. Conroy, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr R. J. McAtee, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The Chairman called on the remaining Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 137-161 - Department of Administrative Services (Document A) Division 250 - Rent (Defence) (Document A) Division 252 - Acquisition of Sites and Buildings (Defence) (Document A) Division 253 Furniture and Fittings (Defence) (Document A) Division 817 - Department of Administrative Services (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Administrative Services.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 4.57 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Knight, Douglas McClelland, McLaren, Scott, Sibraa and Sim ( 6).

15

J .. P. SIM

Chairman

TilE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.6 THURSDAY, 15 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.15 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Sim) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS PARLIAMENT: OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-Appearing: Senator the Honourable Condor L. Laucke, President of the Senate, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of the Senate Mr J. R. Odgers, C.B.E., Clerk of the Senate Mr H. C. Nicholls, Acting Clerk Assistant Mr H. G. Smith, Acting Principal Parliamentary Officer Mr A. H. Higgins, Senior Clerk of Committees Mr T. H. G. Wharton, Acting Usher of the Black Rod Mr R. G. Mair, Senior Parliamentary Officer (Administration) Joint House Department

Mr R. W. Hillyer, Secretary Mr R. L. Burrell, Chief Executive Officer Department of the Parliamentary Library Mr A. L. Moore, O.B.E., Parliamentary Librarian

Mr H. Knight, Finance Officer Mr M. J. Bray, Administrative Officer Department of the Parliamentary Reporting Staff Mr K. R. In,gram, Principal Parliamentary Reporter

Mr F. W. Temperly, Administrative Officer Department of Officials:

Mr B. K. Conroy, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr R. J. McAtee, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 101-109 - Parliament (Document A) Division 800 - Parliament (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Parliament.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART­ MENT OF 1HE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET:

Appearing: Senator the Right Honourable R. G. Withers, Minister for Adminis­ trative Services, accompanied by the following officers: Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet: Mr J. T. O'Connor, First Assistant Secretary, Government and Operations

Division

16

Mr A. J. Mann, Assistant Secretary, Special Management Services Branch Mr B. D. Bell, Senior Executive Officer, Finance and Accounts Mr K. J. Vassarotti, Constitutional and Legal Affairs Branch Dr R. M. Green, Secretary, Australian Science and Technology Council

Mr J. M. Parr, Committee of Inquiry into Education and Training Commonwealth Ombudsman: Mr K. M. Crotty, Deputy Ombudsman Australian National Gallery:

Mr J. Mollison, Director Mr B. Kelson, Secretary and Manager Australia Council: Mr J. Cameron, General Manager

Mr R. Taylor, Deputy Executive Officer (Finance) Mr B. Claremont, Director, Administration Mr R. Edwards, Director, Aboriginal Arts Board Australian Film and Television School:

Mr W. T. Brown, Head, Administration and Services Mr M. Tan, Executive Officer, Finance Australian Film Commission: Mr K. F. Watts, Chairman

Mr B. J. Gittings, Secretary Mr T. Reid, Producer-in-Chief, Film Australia Auditor-General's Office: Mr J. E. Korte, Acting First Assistant Auditor-General Division C

Mr B. H. Farrow, Acting Controller, Policy Planning and Management Branch Public Service Board: Mr R. N. McLeod, Secretary

Mr V. Jabs, Mandata Projects Officer Mr F. Campbell, Finance Officer Department of Finance Officials: Mr B. K. Conroy, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch

Mr R. J. McAtee, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 500-520 - Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (Document A)

Tne...Cmmni-t-iee concluded its consideration of Divisions 500-505.

Ordered - That the proposed expenditure for the Joint Coal Board and the Australian Atomic Energy Commission (Department of National Resources) be now considered. 4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78 - DEPART­ MENT OF NATIONAL RESOURCES:

Appearing: Senator the Right Honourable R. G. Withers, Minister for Adminis­ trative Services, accompanied by the following officers: Joint Coal Board: Mr A. C. Girard, Chief Administrative Officer

Mr L. G. O'Brien, Chief Accountant

17

Australian Atomic Energy Commission: Mr A. J. Moulding, Assistant Secretary, Finance Dr G. L. Miles, Site Manager, Nuclear Science and Technology Branch Dr R. Warner, Head of Production Division, Uranium Branch

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Division 435 - Joint Coal Board (Document A) Division 436 - Australian Atomic Energy Commission (Document A) Division 883 -

Subdivisions 3 and 6 - Australian Atomic Energy Commission (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed .expenditure for the Joint Coal Board and the Australian Atomic Energy Commission (Department of National Resources).

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78 - DEPART­ MENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET: Appearing: Senator the Right Honourable R. G. Withers, Minister for Adminis­ trative Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Departm'ent of the Prim:e Minister and Cabinet: Mr J. T. O'Connor, First Assistant Secretary, Government and Operations Division Mr A. J. Mann, Assistant Secretary, Special Management Services Branch Mr B. D. Bell, Senior Executive Officer, Finance and Accounts · Mr K. J. Vassarotti, Constitutional and Legal Affairs Branch Dr R. M .. Green, Secretary, Australian Science and Technology Council Mr J. M. Parr, Committee of Inquiry into Education and Training Commonwealth Ombudsman:

Mr K. M. Crotty, Deputy Ombudsman Australian National Gallery: Mr J. Mollison, Director Mr B. Kelson, Se.cretary and Manager Australia Council:

Mr J. Cameron, General Manager Mr R. Taylor, Deputy Executive Officer (Finance) Mr B. Claremont, Director, Administration Mr R. Edwards, Director, Aboriginal Arts Board Australian Film and Television School:

Mr W. T. Brown, Head, Administration and Services Mr M. Tan, Executive Officer, Finance Australian Film Commission.: Mr K. F. Watts, Chairman

Mr B. J. Gittings, Secretary Mr T. Reid, Producer-in-Chief, Film Australia Auditor-General's Office: Mr J. E. Korte, Acting First Assistant Auditor-General Division C

Mr B. H. Farrow, Acting Controller, Policy Planning and Management Branch

18

Public Service Board: Mr R. N. McLeod, Secretary Mr V. Jabs, Mandata Projects Officer Mr F. Campbell, Finance Officer Department of Finance Officials:

Mr B. K. Conroy, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr R. J. McAtee, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch

The Chairman called on the remaining Divisions for consideration: Divisions 506-520 ----- Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (Document A) Division 915 - Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (Document

B) .

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78 - DEPART­ MENT OF NATIONAL RESOURCES:

Appearing: Senator the Right Honourable R. G. Withers, Minister for Adminis­ trative Services, accompanied by the following officers: Department of National Resources: Mr F. J. Smith, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services ·Branch

Mr L. R. Riches, Acting Director, Finance and General Services Mr P. P. Power, Acting Assistant Director, Finance and Accounts Mr D. J. Crombie, Acting Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Mr A. Manderson, Assistant Secretary, Water and Special Projects Division

Mr R. R. Vine, Assistant Secretary, No. 1 Branch, Export Control Division No. 1 Mr A. N. Page, Assistant Secretary, General Branch, Economic and General Division

Mr R. Layland, Assistant Secretary, Secretariat Branch, Energy Planning Division Mr D. J. Gates, Assistant Secretary, Uranium Branch, Uranium and Electricity Division

Mr L. Graig, Executive Officer, No. 2 Branch, Export Control Division No.2 Mr L. W. Williams, Acting Director, Bureau of Mineral Resources, Geology and Geophysics Mr P. H. Langhorne, Senior Executive Officer, Planning and Co-ordination

Branch, Division of National Mapping Mr A. A. Garran, Financial Controller, Petroleum and Minerals Invest­ ment Group Pipeline Authority:

Mr F. W. Noble, Finance Manager Mr W. V. Beeka, Accountant Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority: Mr N. R. Little, Chief Administrative Officer

Mr G. W. Goodwin, Accountant

19

Department of Finance Officials: Mr B. K. Conroy, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr R. J. McAtee, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch

The Chairman called on the remaining Divisions for consideration: Divisions 430-432 - Department of National Resources (Document A) Divisions 883-886 - Department of National Resources (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of National Resources.

7. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.17 p.m.

8. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Knight, Douglas McClelland, McLaren, Scott, Sibraa and Sim ( 6).

Senators Chaney, McAuliffe and Rae also took part in the Committee's proceedings.

20

J.P. SIM Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMI'ITEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.7 FRIDAY, 16 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 9.32 a.m. The Acting Chairman (Senator Scott) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART­ MENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: .Appearing: Senator the Right Honourable R. G. Withers, Minister for .Administrative Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Foreign Affairs:

Mr A. R. Parsons, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr W. G. T. Miller, Assistant Secretary, Personnel Branch Mr R. E. Johns, Acting Assistant Secretary, Administrative Services Branch

Mr I. J. Meszes, Acting Director (Finance) Mr A. D. Campbell, First Assistant Secretary, International Organisations and Consular Division Mr M. S. G. Curtin, Acting Assistant Secretary, International Organis­

ations Branch Mr M. J. Wilson, First Assistant Secretary, Public Affairs and Cultural Relations Division Mr J . P. Walshe, M.B.E., Assistant Secretary, Technical Services Branch

Mr C. S. R. Rodgers, Acting Assistant Secretary, Papua New Guinea Branch Mr B. B. Hickey, Assistant Secretary, Consular and Immigration Branch Mr J. M. Trotter, Foreign Affairs Officer ·

Development Assistance Bureau:

Mr H. Marshall, Acting Director, Australian Development Assistance Bureau Dr R. C. Manning, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Programs, Operations and Policy Division Mr C. E. T. Terrell, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Training, Services

and Organisations Division -Mr B. Bray, Acting Assistant Secretary, International Training and Education Branch Mr K. Detto, Acting Assistant Secretary, International Organisations and

Liaison Branch -Mr N. Hunt, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Services Branch Miss R. McGovern, Assistant Secretary, Programs, Appraisals and Evaluation Branch

Mr R. Spratt, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr N. Hope, Principal Executive Officer, Overseas Education Section Mr K. Keneally, Senior Executive Officer, Research Section G. Reid, Executive Officer, Services Sub-section

21

Mr N. Ross, Executive Officer, Non-Government Organisations Section Mr R. Vizard, Senior Executive Officer, International Organisations Section Department of Finance Official:

Mr R. J. McAtee, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch.

The Minister for Administrative Services made a statement relating to the Estimates of Expenditure and Receipts for 1977-78 of the Department of Foreign Affairs.

The Acting Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 315-318 - Department of Foreign Affairs (Document A) Divisions 851-852 - Department of Foreign Affairs (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Foreign Affairs.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART­ MENT OF DEFENCE: Appearing: Senator the Right Honourable R. G. Withers, Minister for Administrative Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Departrrzent of Defence: Defence Central Representatives: Mr M. T. Hyland, First Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budgets Commodore R. H. Percy, Director-General, Joint Plans and Operations.

Mr J. S. O'Neill, Assistant Secretary, Budgets and Estimates (General and Co-ordination) Mr J. W. Knight, Assistant Secretary, Budgets and Estimates (Services} Mr D. M. McAlister, Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy and

Requirements Mr D. N. Biddle, Acting Assistant Secretary, Project Planning and Evaluation (DIMP) .

Mr G. R. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Industry Development Mr D. A. Whitty, Assistant Secretary, International Policy (PNG and Defence Co-operation Programs) Mr H. P. Jones, Assistant Secretary (Administration), Defence Science

Administration ·

Mr R. Vardenega, Assistant Secretary, Natural Disasters Organisation Colonel R. E. Faulks, Acting Director-General, Recruiting Mr R. B. Smith, Acting Assistant Secretary, Programs Management Mr L. J. Murphy, Director of Finance and General Services Mr B. McDevitt, Chief Executive Officer, Estimates and Programs Supply

Policy Mr E. H. Gibbs, Assistant Secretary, Project Co-ordination (Computing Services) Mr F. McConaghy, Director of Civil Personnel Administration Brigadier I. R. W. Brumfield, Director-General, Service Conditions Navy Office Representatives:

Commodore A. Willis, Director-General, Naval Operational Requirements. Mr P. F. McNamara, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning-Navy

22

Army Office Representatives: Brigadier J. J. Shelton, Director-General, Operations and Plans-Army Mr T. E. Sullivan, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning-Army Air Force Office Representatives:

Air Commodore K . Tongue, Director-General, Operations and Plans­ Air Force Mr M. J. Madden, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning-Air Force Department of FinaJlCe Official:

Mr R. J. McAtee, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch.

The Acting Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 230-241 - Department of Defence (Document A)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Defence ..

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 1.09 p.m. till a day and hour to be

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Cbmmittee were present: Senators Knight, Douglas McClelland, McLaren and SCott ( 4).

D.B.SCOTI' Acting

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.8 THURSDAY, 6 OCTOBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.00 a.m. The C4airman (Senator Sim)' took the Chair.

2. MINUTES:. On the motion of Senator Knight the minutes of the previous­ meetings were confirmed.

3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Chairman presented a Draft Report for the Committee's consideration. On the motion of Senator McLaren, the Draft Report was agreed to with amendment.

4. INCORPORATION IN HANSARD-WRITTEN REPLIES: On the motion· of Senator McLaren, written replies to Questions were incorporated in the Hansard report of the Committee's evidence.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.21 a.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members were present: Senators Knight, McLaren; Scott, Sibraa and Sim ( 5).

24

J.P. SIM Chairman.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B REPORT TO THE SENATE

mE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITrEE B

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee B has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 25 August 1977, the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates for the year 1977-78 relating to the following Departments: Department of Industry and Commerce Department of Overseas Trade

Department of the Treasury Department of Finance Department of Primary Industry Department of the Special Trade Negotiator

2. The Committee has considered these Estimates and has received expla­ nations of them from the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Senator Cotton, and officers representing the Departments concerned. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are

tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1977-78 and Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1977-78.

3. Subsequent to the Committee's examination of the estimates referred, further information was forwarded to the Committee in reply to specific questions raised during the proceedings. Copies of these replies are attached as an Appendix to the Report.

4. During the Committee's examination of the proposed expenditure some areas appeared to offer doubtful benefit for the high commitment of expenditure. For example, the Committee was unable to obtain accurate cost-benefit analyses in relation to the following matters, and suggests that a continuing review of these

expenditures should be assigned to an appropriate parliamentary committee such as the Senate Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations. (i) The growing use of computers where there is no apparent decrease in the number of persons employed;

( ii) the large amounts paid by departments and branches for the hire of pot plants, instead of using screens or moveable partitions as room dividers; and (iii) large expenditure by departments and their libraries on newspapers and

periodicals. 5. In its Report in May this year the Committee commented as follows: . . it would assist the Committee members if in the Explana.tory Notes, Departments could reconcile the savings with the Appropriations required. Particu­ larly in cases where functions or responsibilities have been transferred from one Department to another, it would be easier to comprehend if where additional funds

are required by one Department the resultant savings made by the other Depart­ ment were indicated.'. Departments do not appear to have taken note of this comment and the Com­ mittee again points out that consideration of departmental expenditure which has

been transferred from one Department to another should be set out in the Explanatory Notes as a percentage of the previous year's expenditure.

27

6. Estimates Committee 'A' in its Reports of May and October 1976 and Estimates Committee 'F' in its Report of May 1977 drew attention to the variation in both form and content· of Explanatory Notes provided by various Departments and suggested that if these were· standardised, as far as possible, it would be of great assistance to members of Estimates Committees. The Committee commends

the Department of Primary Industry for the clear and concise nature of the written explanations provided to members and suggests that other Departments could follow its example.

7. The Committee places on record its appreciation· of the detailed written explanations which were provided to Senators prior to the hearings, and also the evidence given by the Minister, Senator Cotton, and the officers of the various Departments who assisted the Committee during the inquiry.

28

A. J. MESSNER Chairman

Estilnates CoiDDiittee B Minutes of Proceedings

DIE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

No.2

TUESDAY, 6 SEPTEMBER 1977

Private Meeting:

l. The Committee met at 3.53 p.m.

2. APPOINTMENT OF, AND REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES:

( 1) The Resolution of the Senate of 25 August 1977 that the Committee consider the proposed expenditure for the year ending 30 June 1978 and report to the Senate on or before Tuesday 11 October 1977, was reported.

(2) The Resolution of the Senate of 25 August 1977 that the Committees deal with departmental estimates in the same grouping as agreed to on 21 April and that Estimates Committee B deal with the estimates for the Department of the Special Trade Negotiator, was reported.

3. MEMBERS OF TilE COMMITTEE: The entry in the Journals of the Senate of 25 August 1977 recording changes in the membership of Estimates Committee B was reported. The new ·membership is as follows:

Senator B. R. Archer

Senator the Hon. T. C. Drake-Broekman, D.F.C.

Senator A. T. Gietzelt

Senator .A. Messner

Senator C. G. Primmer

Senator P. A. Walsh.

4.. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: On the motion of Senator Archer, Senator Messner was elected Chairman.

Senator Messner thereupon took the Chair.

Public Meeting:

5. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to 'be followed 'by the Committee in its examination of the Patticwars for Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending 30 June 1978 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the year

31

24321/78-1

ending 30 June 1978, and stated that, pursuant to the Order of the Senate of 25 August 1977, the Committee would consider the following departmental estimates:

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 83-84 380-382 Industry and Commerce 23 944 000

A 92-94 470-474 Overseas Trade 65 601 000

A 124-127 670-678 Treasury 241 118 000

B 25 963 Treasury 1 592 000

A 68 310 Advance to the Treasurer . 118 000 000

B 14 850 Advance to the Treasurer . 108 000 000

A 65-67 304-308 Finance . 23 592 000

B lJ-14 845-846 Finance . 18 956 000

A 98-101 490-497 Primary Industry 85 458 000

B 20-21 913-914 Primary Industry 88 680 000

A 119-120 620 Special Trade Negotiator . · 100 000

* Document A-'Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1978'. • Document B- of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978'.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART-MENT OF INDUSTRY .AN:b COMMERCE: - .

Appearing: Senator the Honourable R. C. Cotton, Minister for Industry and Commerce, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of fndustry and Commerce: Mr G. Collopy, Assistant Secretary, Metal Manufactures and Electrical Branch, who also represented the Shipbuilding Division I Mr J. Miller, Assistant General Manager, Australian Tourist Commission Mr R. L. Gray, Acting Assistant Secretary, Industry Development Branch

Mr K. G. Hocking, Assistant Secretary, Management Services and Secre-tariat Branch Mr R. J. Kinsella, Director, Finance and Management Services Branch

Department of Finance: Mr .C. J.. Dolman, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting- and: Supply Division Mr M. G. Napier, Finance Qrade 1., Accounting and Supply

Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 80-3'82 ___; Department ·of Indus tty and Commerce (Document A) The Committee copcluded its consideration o( the proposed expenditure. for the Depart,ment o( and Commerce. . .

32

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART­ MENT OF OVERSEAS TRADE: Appearing: Senator the Hon. R. C. Cotton, Minister for Industry and · Com­ merce, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Overseas Trade: Mr W. H. Ratcliff, Director, Management Services Branch Mr P. Marcusson, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Markets Division Mr G. J. Hall, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Markets Division

Mr R. J. Thomas, Assistant Secretary, Policy Development Division Mr J. P. Gallagher, Director, Trade Promotion Division Mr R. J. Wright, Director, Trade Promotion Division Mr B. A. Schick, Assistant Secretary, Trade Services Division Department of Finance:

Mr C. J. Dolman, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr M. G. Napier, Finance Officer, Grade 1, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 470-474 - Department of Overseas Trade (Document A)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Overseas Trade.

8. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78--,..DEPART­ MENT OF THE SPECIAL TRADE NEGOTIATOR: Appearing: Senator the Hon. R. C. Cotton, Minister for Industry and Com­ merce, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of the Special Trade Negotiator: Mr W. H. Ratcliff, Director, Management Services Branch, Department of Overseas Trade Department of Finance:

Mr C . . J. Dolman, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr M. G. Napier, Finance Officer, Grade 1, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Division for consideration: Division 620 - Department of the Special Trade Negotiator (Document A) The Committee ·concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of the Special Trade Negotiator.

9. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78- DEPART­ MENT OF THE TREASURY: Appearing: Senator the Honourable R. C. Cotton, Minister for Industry and Commerce, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of the Treasury: Mr C. F. Grant, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr E. K. Klatt, Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Mr G. M. Wauchop, Inspector (Personnel), Management Services Branch

33

Mr G. A. Walker, Senior Inspector, Management Services Branch Mr E. F. Delofski, Senior Finance Officer, Overseas Economic Relations Division Mr K. B. Moore, Senior Finance Officer, Revenue, Loans and Investment

Division Mr G. S. Maan, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Office of the Insurance Commissioner Mr c: R. Hodges, Acting Senior Inspector, Investigations and Legal, Office

of the Insurance Commissioner Mr R. S. Stenhouse, Acting Director, Development _ and Information Office of the Insurance Commissioner Mr C. R. Rye, First Assistant Secretary, General Financial and Economic­

Policy Division Australian Bureau of Statistics: Mr D. Sams, Acting Assistant Statistician, Technical Systems and Pro--duction Branch

Mr P. G. Howell, Assistant Statistician, Management Services Mr K. Watson, Assistant Statistician, Population Census Branch Mr J. W. Maurer, Director, Finance and General Services Australian Taxation Office:

Mr J. J . Daly, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Management Services. Branch Mr D. N. Riley, Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Mr J. E. McTigue, Assistant Commissioner, Income Tax Legislation Department of Finance:

Mr C. J. Dolman, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr M. G. Napier, Finance Officer, Grade 1, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 670-678- Department of the Treasury (Document A) Division 963 - Department of the Treasury (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Treasury.

10. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.01 p.m.

11. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee attended the meeting; Senators Archer, Drake-Brockman, Messner, Primmer and Walsh.

34

A. J. MESSNER Chairman

Private Meeting:

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 3

TUESDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 5.05 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Messner) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78 -ADVANCE TO THE TREASURER:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. R. C. Cotton, Minister for Industry and Commerce accompanied by the following officers: Department of Finance: Mr S. G. Herring, Assistant Secretary, Accounting and Supply Division

Mr C. J. Dolman, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration: Division 310 - Advance to the Treasurer (Document A) Division 850 - Advance to the Treasurer (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Advance to the Treasurer.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78 - DEPART­ MENT OF FINANCE:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. R. C. Cotton, Minister for Industry and Commerce accompanied by the following officers: Department of Finance: Mr C. F. Grant, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch

Mr E. K. Klatt, Finance Officer, Finance and Accounts Sub-section Mr G. M. Wauchop, Inspector, Personnel Mr G. A. Walker, Senior Inspector, Management Projects MrS. G. Herring, Assistant Secretary, Accounting and Supply Division Mr C. J. Dolman, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply

Division Mr M. J. Roche, Computer Systems Officer, Automatic Data Processing Branch Mr A. S. Cole, Assistant Secretary, General Expenditure Division · Mr J. D. Maclean, Chief Finance Officer, General Expenditure Division

Mr E. W. C. Mathews, Chief Finance Officer, General Expenditure Division Royal Australian Mint: Mr B. N. McLennan, Superintendent

35

Australian Government Retirement Benefits Office: · Mr F. J. Maguire, Officer-in-Charge, Services and Personnel Mr R. Jackson, Finance Officer Mr B. A. Lorenz, Assistant Secretary

Office , of the Superannuation Fund Investment Trust: Mr K. Webb, Executive Officer

The Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 304-308 - Department of Finance (Document A) Divisions 845-846 - Department of Finance (Document B)

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78 - DEPART­ MENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. R. C. Cotton, Minister for Industry and Commerce accompanied by the following officers: Department of Primary Industry: Mr J. D. O'Bryan, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 2 (Dairy Products)

Division Mr A. E. B. Wood, Senior Executive Officer, Industry No. 2 (Dairy Products) Division Mr J. D. Walsh, Acting Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 4 (Horticultural

Crops) Division Mr A. E. Purnell-Webb, First Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries) Division Mr P. C. Pownall, Journalist, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries) Division Mr E. J. Waring, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 6 (Wool) Division .Mr W. C. K. Hammer, Assistant Secretary, Agriculture and Food Services

Division Mr P. B. Allan, Assistant Secretary, Agriculture and Food Services Division 1

Mr G. L. Miller, Director, Bureau of Agricultural Economics Mr N. Lamb, Principal Executive Officer, Bureau of Agricultural Economics Mr A. G. Hanson, Acting Director-General, Forestry and Timber Bureau Mr J. A. Hart, Senior Assistant Director, Bureau of Animal Health Mr M. J. Devine, Principal Executive Officer, Bureau of Animal Health Mr D. P. Cleary, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr L. C. Elliott, Director of Finance

Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 490-::497 _;_ Departrilen't of Primary Industry (Document A)

Divisions 912-914 - Department of Primary Industry (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Primary Industry. · ·

Private Meeting: 5. For the purpose of considering a draft report the Committee went into deliberative session. It was agreed, after debate, that a draft report be prepared by the Chairman

and forwarded to each member for consideration.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee. adjourned at 9.38 p.m.

7. ATTENDANCE: All members of the Committee were present. Senator Devitt also took part in the Committee's proceedhigs. ·

37

A. J. MESSNER Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 4

THURSDAY, 6 OCTOBER 1977

L MEETING: The Committee met at 1.15 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Messner) took the Chair.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: On the motion of Senator Walsh the minutes of the previous meetings were confirmed.

3. CONSIDERATION OF REPORT: The Committee considered the draft report distributed by the Chairman. On the motion of Senator Drake-Brockman the draft report was adopted.

4. PRESENTATION OF REPORT: On the motion of Senator Walsh the Committee resolved-That the Report be presented to the Senate together with the Minutes of proceedings, written replies received to questions asked during the inquiry and the minutes of evidence.

5. INCORPORATION OF MATERIAL IN HANSARD: On the motion of Senator Walsh the Committee resolved-That, as far as practicable, written replies received to questions asked during the Committee's examination of proposed Departmental expenditure be incorporated in Hansard.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m.

7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee attended the meeting: Senators Drake-Brockman, Messner and Walsh (3).

38

A. J. MESSNER Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C REPORT TO THE SENATE

.. ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee C has the · honour to Report to the Senate.

1. On 25 August 1977, the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates for the year 1977-78 relating to the following Departments: Education Transport

Postal and Telecommunications · Environment, Housing and Community Development

2. The Committee has considered these Estimates and has received explana­ tions of them from the Minister for Education and from officers of the Depart­ ments concerned. A copy of the Hansard report of the evidence is tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with the Appropriation Bill (No. 1)

1977-78 and the Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1977-78.

3. During and subsequent to the hearing of evidence, in accordance with undertakings given, additional written information was made available to the Committee in reply to certain questions asked during the proceedings. Copies of these replies are attached as an Appendix to the Report.

4. The Committee wishes to draw the attention of the Senate to following: (a) In October 1976, the Committee reported that it would be desirable for the Report of the Auditor-General for the previous financial year to be

available for a resonable time prior to the examination of Departmental Estimates in future, so that members of the Committee and other Senators have time to peruse the Report, and ask any questions arising out of it which may be relevant to the Expenditure the Committee is

considering. This year the Report was not available until 13 September 1977, one week after Estimates Committees had commenced. The Committee reiterates the need to have the report available for a reasonable time

prior to examination of Departmental Estimates. If the report is not available, it could be that Departments may have to be re-examined at inconvenience to both the Members of the Committee and to the many witnesses appearing. (b) Again the Committee was pleased to have copies of the Explanatory

Notes well before the examination of the Departmental Estimates. However, the format of the explanations varied considerably from Department to Department. The Committee believes. that its task would be simplified if the format of the explanations were standardised. In

particular, it is of great assistance to the Committee to have the previous year's expenditure incorporated in the explanations at least in as much detail as was provided by the Department of Education in its explanatory notes. The Committee also reports that in respect of explanations provided

and the variations between Departments, it was pointed out by officers from the ABC-where the Committee felt that insufficient detail had

41

been given-that the ABC had been required by the Treasury to pro­ vide the information in that particular form.

However, on 4 October 1977 the Committee received a letter from an officer of the Department of Finance which stated: 'On 6 September 1977 evidence was given to your Committee by the :r:epresentative of the ABC which suggested that the Department of Finance

directed the Commission to prepare their explanatory notes on the Estimates in a particular way. I should like to take the opportunity to clarify this matter. In the normal course the Department of Finance does not direct depart­ ments as to the form or content of the explanatory notes as this is con· sidered to be a departmental responsibility. In the present case the need for change in the basis of the explanatory notes arose from an amended presentation of the Commission's estimates in Budget Paper No. 4. This change in turn arose out of two Cabinet Decisions taken in the context of Cabinet's reviews in November 1976 and May 1977 respectively of the structure of the Australian broadcasting system and of the Radio Australia service. In these Decisions Cabinet directed that the real cost of the ABC's

entrepreneurial activities, particularly in relation to its orchestras, should be reflected in the Budget documents and in the Commission's Annual Report and that the operating costs of Radio Australia should also be separately identified in the Commission's estimates. The ABC had been

aware of these Decisions for some time. 'On 28 July 1977 the ABC proposed that the information sought by the Government be provided by way of footnotes to the previous format of Table 15 in Budget Document No. 4. The Department of Finance immedi­

ately advised the ABC that this proposal was not acceptable and suggested a revised format of Table 15 which, it was felt, met the Government's requirements; the ABC was requested to provide figures on this basis by 1 August 1977 to enable the printing deadlines for the Budget documents to be met. It then remained for the Commission to decide on the extent of detail contained in the explanatory notes for the Committee.'. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the September 1977 report of the Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations and the statement in paragraph (b) on page 11: 'The statutory authorities involved claim that the form of their statements is determined by Treasury requirements and that any dispute is between

the Treasury and the Auditor-General'. The Committee is of the opinion that the form in which explanatory notes are provided must be such as will satisfy the requirements of the Estimates Committees and not the requirements of any particular Government department.

(c) The Committee was concerned at the inadequacy of detail provided in the explanations for certain 'one line appropriations' such as Division 279-Australian National University-$74 330 000-and draws the attention of the Senate to the September 1977 Progress Report of the Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations concern­ ing the need for greater detail being provided by Government statutory bodies. The Committee is of the opinion that there is no reason why detailed explanations for such amounts should not be given as a matter of course, similar to those given for normal Departmental expenditure. For

42

example, when dealing with Division No. 909, Sub-division 2.02-For payment to the Australian Telecommunications Commission in respect of technical services provided pursuant to sections 73 and 74 of the Broadcasting and Television Act-the Committee noted that whilst lists

of works were given, only the total cost was provided. Had the individual costs been provided much questioning and subsequent delays in receiving information could have been avoided. The Committee sees no reason why in such cases the detailed information could not be provided initially.

The lack of satisfactory explanations only leads to longer and sometimes unnecessary questioning in Committee meetings. 5. The Committee records its appreciation of the evidence given by the Minister for Education, together with the officers of the various Departments

whose Estimates the Committee considered.

43

K. J. MARTIN Chairman

Estin1ates Coininittee C

Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.3 TUESDAY, 6 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.05 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.

2. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The resolution of the Senate of 25 August 1977 relating to the referral to Estimates Committees of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the year ending on 30 June 1978 was reported.

3. FORMAT OF ESTIMATES EXPLANATIONS: Discussion ensued on the possibility of standardising the departmental explanations of Estimates. Resolved-That the matter be re-considered when examination of Particu­ lars of Proposed Expenditure had been completed.

4. PROCEDURE OF THE COMMITTEE: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure and stated that, pursuant to the Order of the Senate of 25 August 1977, the Committee would consider the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the service of the year ending· 30 June 1978 relating to the following departmental Estimates:

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 49-55 270-281 Education 479 963 000

B 11 835-836 Education 12 912 000

A 121-123 655-662 Transport 285 009 000

B 24 957-958 Transport 55 058 000

A 95-97 480-485 Postal and Telecommunications 164 446 000

B 19-20 909 Postal and Telecommunications 78 472 000

A 61-64 296-303 Environment, Housing and Community

Development 41 540 000

A 48 248 Housing for Servicemen-Advances to the

States (Defence) 26 100 000

B 12-13 841-843 Environment, Housing and Community

Development 45 901 000

* Document A-'Particulars of 'Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1978'. * Document B--'Particulars of Certain ·Proposed Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978'.

Resolved-That, unless otherwise ordered, the departmental Estimates be considered in the following order: Postal and Telecommunications Department Department of Transport

Department of Education Department of Environment, Housing and Community Development

47

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-POSTAL AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accom­ panied by the following officers: Postal and Telecommunications Department: Mr' E. E. Payne, First Assistant Secretary, Postal and Telecommunica­

tions Policy Mr W. E. Beard, First Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting Engineering Services Mr A. E. Westendorf, Director, Management Services Mr B. Foster, Executive Officer, Finance Australian Broadcasting Commission:

Mr K. C. Mackriell, Assistant General Manager (Radio) Mr G. White, Assistant General Manager (Television) Mr W. Funnel, Controller, Finance Australian Broadcasting Tribunal:

Mr B. J. Connelly, Secretary Mr J. R. Cowen, Senior Executive Officer Australian T e!ecommunications Commission: Dr R. B. Cullen, Director, Finance

Mr E. R. Banks, General Manager, Customer Services Mr J. E. Freeman, Assistant Chief Engineer, Construction Mr K. W. Power, Superintending Switching Planning Mr G. P. Hudson, Manager, Financial Planning Mr A. W. Dagg, Manager, Management and Cost Accounting Australian Postal Commission:

Mr B. Moritz, General Manager, Operations Mr J. Holt, General Manager, Marketing Services Mr G. L. Brazier, Acting General Manager, Accounting Department of Finance:

Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer Mr M. Chick, Finance Officer

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 480-485 - Postal and Telecommunications Department (Document A) Division 909 - Postal and Telecommunications Department (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of Division 485 - Ethn'c Broad­ castin,g-$1 908 000.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.07 p.m. till a day and hour to be fixed.

7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the ·Committee were present: Senators Collard, Martin, Mulvihill and Wriedt ( 4). Se!lators Baume, Button and Jessop also attended.

'K. J. 1\ "ARTIN

48

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.4 MONDAY, 12 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 12 noon. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair. ·

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-POSTAL AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr E. E. Payne, First Assistant Secretary, Postal and Telecommunications Policy Mr W. E. Beard, First Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting Engineering Services Mr R. T. Lord, First Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting Policy Mr E. J. Wilkinson, First Assistant Secretary, Radio Frequency

Management Mr A. E. Westendorf, Director, Management Services Mr B. Foster, Executive Officer, Finance Australian Broadcasting Commission:

Mr G. White, Acting General Manager Mr K. C. Mackriell, Assistant General Manager, Radio Mr W. Funnel, Controller, Finance Australian Telecommunications Commission:

Dr R. B. Cullen, Director, Finance Mr E. R. Banks, General Manager, Customer Services Mr K. W. Power, Superintending Engineer, Switching Planning Mr G. P. Hudson, Manager, Financial Planning Mr A. vV. Dagg, Manager, Management and Cost Accounting Australian Postal Commission:

Mr B. Moritz, General Manager, Operations Mr J. Holt, General Manager, Marketing Services Mr G. L. Brazier, Acting General Manager, Accounting Mr B. J. Beilby, General Manager, Finance Department of Finance:

Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr M. Chick, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Division for consideration: Division 909 - Postal and Telecommunications Department-(Document B)

The Minister made a statement relating to the estimates and tabled answers to certain questions asked at the previous meeting of the Committee.

Ordered-That the tabled papers be incorporated as an Appendix to the Report, and th at the Committee consider the answe rs at a ,ater hour th is day.

49

The Committee considered Division 909 (Document B) and answers provided relating to Division 482 (Document A).

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Postal and Telecommunications Department.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART­ MENT OF TRANSPORT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Transport: Mr G. A. Birch, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Finance and Commercial Division Mr S. P. Smith, First Assistant Secretary, Sea Transport Policy Division

Mr M. Gawan-Taylor, First Assistant Secretary, Strategic Planning and Resource Allocation Division Mr M. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Land Transport Division Mr P. B. Eccles, Assistant Secretary, Emergency and Special Services

Branch, Coastal Services Division Mr W. J. Henderson, Acting Assistant Secretary, National Roads Section, Roads Division Mr G. K. Reid, Director, Bureau of Transport Economics Mr G. Spottswood, Director of Finance, Australian National Line Mr D. W. O'Brien, Assistant Secretary, Economic Policy and Licensing

Branch, Air Transport Policy Division Mr G. T. O'Halloran, Director, Budget, Finance and Commercial Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 655-662 - Department of Transport (Document A) Divisions 957-958 - Department of Transport (Document B)

And the Committee considered Division 655 - Administrative-Sub-division 2-Administrative Expenses-$56 008 000.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 5.03 p.m. till Thursday, 15 September 1977 at 12 noon (subject to the sitting of the Senate).

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Martin, Mulvihall and Wriedt ( 4). Senators Baume and Button also attended.

50

K. J. MARTIN Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.5 THURSDAY, 15 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.20 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin), took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DBPART­ MENT OF TRANSPORT:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Transport: Mr G. A. Birch, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Finance and Commercial

Mr S. P. Smith, First Assistant Secretary, Sea Transport Policy Mr M. Gawan-Taylor, First Assistant Secretary, Strategic Planning and Resources

Mr M. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Land Transport Policy Mr P. B. Eccles, Assistant Secretary, Emergency and Special Services Mr W. J. Henderson, Acting Assistant Secretary, National Roads Mr R. Wyers, Assistant Secretary, Economics

Mr B. Harrison, Finance Manager, Australian National Line Mr D. W. O'Brien, Assistant Secretary, Economic Policy and Licensing Mr G. T. O'Halloran, Director, Budget Mr B. Walkom, Comptroller-Finance, Australian National Railways Mr R. Elder, Acting Assistant Secretary, International Policy Department of Finance:

Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer Mr M. Chick, Finance Officer

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for further consideration: Divisions 655-662 - Department of Transport (Document A)

Divisions 957-958 - Department of Transport (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Transport.

3. PROCEDURE OF THE COMMITIEE: The Committee resolved-That consideration of the particulars of proposed expenditure for the Department of Education, with the exception of those Divisions, Sub-divisions and Items relating to the Northern Territory be postponed until after consideration of particulars

of proposed expenditure relating to the Department of Environment, Housing and Community Development.

51

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART­ MENT OF EDUCATION:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers: Mr D. M. Morrison, Deputy Secretary Mr D. W. Hood, Assistant Secretary, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination:

Branch Mr R. N. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Dr J. H. Eedle, Director, Northern Territory Education-Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Document A Division 272 - Educational Services Northern Territory Division 280 - Darwin Community College Document B

Division 835, Sub-division 1, Item 04-Independent Schools, Northern Territory­ Assistance for approved capital programs Item 05 - Darwin Community College-Approved capital programs

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Divisions, Sub-divisions and Items of proposed expenditure for the Department of Education relating to the Northern Territory.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART­ MENT OF ENVIRONMENT, HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOP­ MENT:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers: Mr P. Gifford, Assistant Secretary, Management Operations Mr M. Jenkins, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Community Development

Mr E. Brookbanks, Acting Assistant Secretary, Community Development Mr K. Thompson, First Assistant Secretary, Environment Impact Assessment Mr V. Kane, Assistant Secretary, Conservation Programs Mr G. Willcox, Section Head, Research Directorate Mr W. Harris, First Assistant Secretary, Housing Dr R. Bunker, First Assistant Secretary, Research Directorate Mr R. Beale, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Building Mr P. Edwards, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Housing Program

Development Mr R. Egan, Assistant Secretary, Programs No. 1 1\tfr R. Mills, Assistant Secretary, Glebe Mr L. Devin, Acting Assistant Secretary, Land Mr E. Davenport, Assistant Secretary, Decentralisation Programs: Mr J. Leys, Town Planner Cities Branch

Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service: Dr R. Boden, Assistant Secretary

52

,fJreat Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority: MrS. Woodley, Liaison Officer Australian Heritage Commission: Mr M. Bourke, Director

Albury-Wodonga Development Corporation: Mr G. Andrew, Chief Administrative Officer Department of Finance: Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer

Mr M. Chick, Finance Officer

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 296-303 - Department of Environment, Housing and Com­ munity Development (Document A) Division 248 - Housing for Servicemen-Advance to the States (Defence)

(Document A) Divisions 841-843 - Department of Environment, Housing and Com-munity Development (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Environment, Housing and Community Development.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.50 p.m. till a day and hour to be fixed.

7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Martin, Mulvihill, Townley and Wriedt ( 5) . Senators Baume and Georges also attended.

53

K.J.MARTIN Chairman

I I

I,

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITIEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 6 TUESDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.12 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin); took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART-­ MENT OF EDUCATION:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers: Mr D. M. Morrison, Deputy Secretary Mr R. A. Foskett, First Assistant Secretary, Territorial Education Division

Mr D. W. Hood, Assistant Secretary, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch Mr E. M. Mcconchie, Assistant Secretary, Australian Capital Territory· Technical and Further Education Branch Mr R. N. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Departmental Services Branch Mr F. R. Smith, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Special Programs Branch Mr J.B. Machin, Assistant Secretary, Migrant Education Branch Mr H. E. Hughes, First Assistant Secretary, Student Assistance Division Mr E. L. Charles, Assistant Secretary, Education Planning Group Mr B. C. Milligan, Assistant Secretary, Education Planning Group Mr W. Bowron, Director, State Operations Unit Australian Capital Territory Schools Authority:

Dr H. Beare, Chief Education Officer Mr B. J. Hutchinson, Director, Facilities Branch Commonwealth Teaching Service: Mr M. Woodward, Secretary Schools Commission:

Mr R. P. McNamara, Acting Secretary Tertiary Education Commission: Mr R. Arthur, Acting First Assistant Commissioner Curriculum Development Centre:

Dr M. Skilbeck, Director Department of Finance: Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer Mr M. Chick, Finance Officer

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 270-281 - Department of Education (Document A) Division 835-836 -'- Department of Education (Document B) (with the exception of those Divisions, Sub-divisions and Items relating to;

the Northern Territory previously considered).

54

The Commit Department

3. ADJOU 21 Septembe

-4. ATTEN ~ Senators Co: Senator

·The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Education.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.57 p.m. till Wednesday, 2 1 September 1977 at 9 a.m.

-4. ATIENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: '.Senators Collard, Martin, Mulvihill, Townley and Wriedt (5).

Senator Button also attended.

55

K. J. MARTIN Chairman

TilE. SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.7

WEDNESDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 9 a.m. The Chairman (Senator took the Chair.

2. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: Discussion ensued on matters to be incorporated in the Report of the Committee.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.25 a.m. till a day and hour to be fixed.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Martin, Mulvihill and Wriedt (3).

56

K. J. MARTIN Chairman:

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.8 WEDNESDAY, 5 OCTOBER 1977

]. MEETING: The Committee met at 12.30 p.m. The Chairman (Senator :Martin) took the Chair.

2. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered a draft .Report to the Senate. After discussion and certain amendments made-­ Resolved: That the Report be adopted.

·3. MINUTES: The minutes of the meetings held on 6, 12, 15, 20 and 21 :September 1977 were read and confirmed.

-4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.46 p.m. till a day and hour to be fixed.

·s. ATTENDANCE: The following members. of the Committee were present: :Senators Collard, Martin and Townley (3).

57

K. J. MARTIN Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COl\1:1\fiTTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No .. 9

TUESDAY, 11 OCTOBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 12.30 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.

2. MINUTES: The Minutes of the previous Meeting held on Wednesday,, 5 October 1977, were read and confirmed.

3. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION SUPPLIED TO COMMITTEE: The, Committee discussed additional information which had been supplied to it by· departments in answer to questions asked during the proceedings of the Committee.

Resolved: That the information, as far as practicable, be incorporated in' Hansard.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.50 p.m. to a day and' hour to be fixed.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Martin (Chairman), Townley and Wriedt ( 4).

58

K. J. MARTIN­ Chairman.'

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee D has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 25 August 1977 the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates for the year 1977-78 relating to the following departments: Social Security Health

Immigration and Ethnic Affairs Aboriginal Affairs

2. The Committee has considered these Estimates and has received explana­ tions of them from the Minister for Social Security and officers of the departments concerned. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in

connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1977-78 and Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1977-78.

3. Subsequent to the hearing of evidence and in accordance with undertakings given during the hearings, further information was forwarded to the Committee in reply to questions raised during the proceedings. This information is included as an appendix to the Committee's Report. Information still outstanding will be tabled

at a later date by means of a Supplementary Report.

4. The Committee expresses its concern at the continuing inability of the Department of Health to carry out effectively its statutory function of evaluating all drugs proposed for marketing in Australia. On the basis that this is a structural and continuing problem the Department may need to review its

capacity and future role in this area.

5. Throughout its consideration of the Estimates, the Committee was con­ cerned to note that the funding of many government programs consistently takes place in the absence of stated objectives and without subsequent evaluations as to the effectiveness of the programs. The Committee believes that all programs which involve the expenditure of Commonwealth moneys should only be undertaken in

line with stated government policy or departmental objectives and that appropriate evaluations as to the effectiveness of the programs should regularly be undertaken.

6. The Committee records its appreciation of the assistance given by the Minister for Social Security and officers of the various departments whose Estimates the Committee considered.

61

PETER BAUME Chairman

Estinlates CoiDlllittee D Minutes of Proceedings

24321 L78-3

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.3 THURSDAY, 8 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 12.30 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Peter Baume) took the Chair. 2. STATElVIENT OF CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made an introductory statement.

3. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78: Pursuant to Order of the Senate, the Committee commenced con., sideration of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1978 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expen­

diture in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978 relating to the following departmental estimates: Departmental Estimates to be Examined (Minister: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle)

Document* Page Division No. Department Amount

A 116-118

B 23-24

A 75-79

B 15-16

A 80-82

A 10-12

B 6

590

939,940 325-335 853,854 340-344 120, 125 811,813

Social Security Social Security Health Health Immigration and Ethnic Affairs Aboriginal Affairs Aboriginal Affairs

$

256 034 000 69 925 000 1790410000 176 940 000

30 565 000 90 774 000 32 564 OOo

* Document A-'Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1978'. * Document B-'Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978'.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPART­ MENT OF HEALTH: Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Health, accompanied by the

following officers: Department of Health: Mr C. A. Nettle, Deputy Director-General Dr D. de Souza, Acting Deputy Director-General

Dr W. A. Langsford, First Assistant Director-General, Public Health Division Dr B. L. Hennessy, First Assistant Director-General, Health Services Division Mr R. H. Searle, First Assistant Director-General, Quarantine Division Mr L. W. Lane, First Assistant Director-General, Management Services

Division Mr H. West, First Assistant Director-General, Medical Insurance Services Division

65

Dr L. Dodson, Director, National Biological Standards Laboratory Mr J. Shaw, Acting First Assistant Director-General, National Health and Medical Research Council Division Mr C. R. Wilcox, Acting General Manager, Health Insurance Commission J. M. Blandford, Commissioner, Capital Territory Health Commission

Department of Finance: Mr B. K. Conroy, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr R. J . McAtee, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch

The Chairman called on Divisions 325-335 and 853-854, Department of Health.

The following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure were considered: Divisions 325-335 ___, Health (Document A) $1 790 410 000 Divisions 853-854 - Health (Document B) $176 940 000

Consideration of the Estimates for the department was completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

5. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SECURITY: Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Social Security: Mr M. Wryell, Deputy Director-General Mrs M. Coleman, Director, Office of Child Care. Mr A. S. Colliver, First Assistant Director-General, Social Welfare Mr I. Prowse, First Assistant Director-General, Benefits Mr D. R. Scott, Acting First Assistant Director-General, Management Mr C. Calvert, Assistant Director-General, Finance Mr E. B. Kennedy, Assistant Director-General, Operations Mr G. W. Kiddie, Assistant Director-General, Migrant

1

Community

Services Mr J. M. Mahoney, Assistant Director-General, Secretariat and Information Mr G. Pilger, Acting Assistant Director-General, Rehabilitation Services Mr L. H. Ryan, Assistant Director-General, Benefits Administration Mr D. I. Stanton, Acting Assistant Director-General, Research and

Statistics Mr M. Goonrey, Director, Compensation Policy Mr J. Wilkinson, Acting Director, Aged Persons Welfare Department of Finance:

Mr B. K. Conroy, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr R. J. McAtee, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on Divisions 590 and 939-940, Department of Social Security.

The Minister made an introductory statement.

66

Consideration commenced of the .following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure: Division 590 - Social Security (Document A) $256 034 000 Divisions 939-940 - Social Security (Document B) $69 925 000 (division 590 being· considered by the Committee).

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.30 p.m.

7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Baume, Brown, Grimes, Melzer, Sheil and Walters. Senator Harradirie was also in attendance.

67

PETERBAUME Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.4 THURSDAY, 15 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.15 p.m. The Acting Chairman (Sena­ tor Sheil) took the Chair.

2. CONSIDERATION RESUMED OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SECURITY:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Social Security: Mr M. Wryell, Deputy Director-General

Mrs M. Coleman, Director, Officer of Child Care Mr A. S. Colliver, First Assistant Director-General, Social Welfare Mr I. Prowse, First Assistant Director-General, Benefits Mr D. Corrigan, First Assistant Director-General, Management Mr C. Calvert, Assistant Director-General, Finance

Mr E. B. Kennedy, Assistant Director-General, Operations Mr W. G. Kiddie, Assistant Director-General, Migrant Community Services Mr J. M. Mahoney, Assistant Director-General, Secretariat and

Information Mr G. Pilger, Acting Assistant Director-General, Rehabilitation Services Mr L. H. Ryan, Assistant Director-General, Benefits Administration Mr D. I. Stanton, Acting Assistant Director-General, Research and

Statistics Mr D. R. Scott, Assistant Director-General, Establishments and Personnel Projects Mr M. Goonrey, Directorr, Compensation Policy Mr J . Wilkinson, Acting Director, Aged Persons Welfare Department of Finance:

Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer

The following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure were considered: Division 590 - Social Security (Document A) $256 034 000 Divisions 939-940 - Social Security (Document B) $69 925 000

Consideration of the Estimates for the department was completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPART­ MENT OF IMMIGRATION AND ETHNIC AFFAIRS:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs: MrS. J. Dempsey, Deputy Secretary Mr D. Volker, First Assistant Secretary, Planning, Program and Review Division Mr P. H. Bennett, Assistant Secretary, Management Branch Mr A. L. Barclay, Assistant Secretary, Special Programs Branch Mr A. W. Burt, Director, Finance and General Services

Mr I. L. MacLeod, Director, Establishments and Manpower Planning Mr E. Goodall, Director, Computer Services Mr K. Dammeral, Assistant Director, Finance and General Services Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer

The following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure were considered: Divisions 340-344 - Immigration and Ethnic Affairs (Document A) $30 565 000

Consideration of the Estimates for the department was completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

4. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS:

Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Aboriginal Affairs:

Mr T. C. Lovegrove, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Division II Mr N. J. L. Jansz, Assistant Secretary, Programs Branch Mr P. J. Sullivan, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr R. Toohey, Director, Finance Mr R. W. Hogan, Assistant Director, Finance

Mr W. L. O'Neil, Director, Personnel and Establishments Mr R. J. Angel, Acting Assistant Secretary, Operations Management Branch Miss A. Somers, Assistant Secretary, Policy Branch

Mr C. Perkins, Assistant Secretary, Planning Division Mr B. K. Thomas, Director, Programs Branch Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer

The Chairman called on Divisions 120-125 and 811-813, Department of Aboriginal Affairs.

The Minister made an introductory statement.

Consideration commenced of the following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure: Divisions 120-125 - Aboriginal Affairs (Document A) S90 774 000 Divisions 811-813 - Aboriginal Affairs (Document B) $32 564 000 (division 120 being considered by the Committee).

69

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.31 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Baume, Brown, Grimes, Sheil and Walters. Senator Keeffe was also in attendance.

70

PETER BAUME Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMIITEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.5 THURSDAY, 22 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.50 p.m. The Acting Chairman (Senator Sheil) took the Chair.

2. CONSIDERATION RESUMED OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs,

accompanied by the following officers: Department of Aboriginal Affairs: Mr N. J. L. Jansz, Assistant Secretary, Programs Branch Mr P. J. Sullivan, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch

Mr R. Toohey, Director, Finance Mr R. W. Hogan, Assistant Director, Finance Mr W. L. O'Neil, Director, Personnel and Establishments Mr R. J. Angel, Acting Assistant Secretary, Operations Management

Branch Miss A. Somers, Assistant Secretary, Policy Branch Mr C. Perkins, Assistant Secretary, Planning Division Mr B. K. Thomas, Director, Programs Branch

The following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure were considered: Divisions 120-125 - Aboriginal Affairs (Document A) $90 774 000 Divisions 811-813 - Aboriginal Affairs (Document B) $32 564 000

Consideration of the Estimates for the department was completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.45 a.m., Friday, 23 September 1977.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Baume, Brown, Grimes, Melzer and Sheil. Senators Keeffe and McLaren were also in attendance.

71

PETER BAUME Chairman

mE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMI'ITEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.6 THURSDAY, 6 OCTOBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.45 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Baume) took the Chair.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the previous meetings held on 8, 15 and 22 September were read and confirmed.

3. CONSIDERATION OF REPORT: The Chairman presented his draft report to the Committee. Discussion ensued. Resolved: That the Chairman amend the report as agreed to by the Com­

mittee and that the report be circulated to Members of the Committee for consideration -and agreement prior to its presentation to the Senate.

4. Resolved (on the motion of Senator Walters): That as far as it is practical, written answers containing additional information be incorporated in the Hansard of the Committee's hearings.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.58 a.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Baume, Brown, Sheil and Walters.

PETER BAUME Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

REPORT TO THE SENATE

1. Estimates Committee E has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

2. Pursuant to the Order of the Senate the Committee has considered the ·estimates of proposed expenditure of the following departments: Department of Science Department of the Northern Territory

Department of Construction Department of the Capital Territory

The Committee has received explanations of the proposed expenditure from the Minister for Science and officers of the departments concerned.

3. The minutes of proceedings of the Committee are included in this Report and the Hansard report of the evidence taken is presented herewith.

4. The attention of the Senate is drawn to the following: (i) Computers The Committee again observed the large expenditure by departments on computers. Attachment 1 to this report is a table of items relating to com­

puters which were able to be identified in the explanatory notes -supplied to the Committee. In response to the Committee's report of October 1976 the responsible Minister presented to the Senate a paper (Attachment 2) giving an account of Public Service Board scrutiny of computer use by

departments. In that statement it was indicated that the Government had directed the Board to examine the expenditure on computers with a view to making substantial savings and that the Board's guidelines to depart­ ments on computers would be published. The Committee has now been

told in a written answer (Attachment 3) that an interim report has been prepared on rationalisation of computer use. The Committee considers that before the estimates are passed by the Senate, the Senate should receive some further indication of the results of the Board's efforts in this area. (ii) Civil Works Program

In its report in October 1976 the Committee drew attention to the fact that the Civil Works Program was misleading in that the sums stated to be the amounts authorised for projects were not the amounts approved before the commencement of the projects but the costs of the projects

as estimated at the time of compilation of the Civil Works Program for that year. The Civil Works Program for 1977-7 8 now gives figures stated to be the estimated costs of projects, but this is still misleading in that these are not original estimated costs at the commencement of the projects but current estimated costs. The Committee considers that the original

estimated costs of projects should be shown in the Civil Works Program so as to indicate to the Senate the increases. It is acknowledged that the explanatory notes of the National Capital Development Commission showed these figures in relation to the High Court Building and the

National Gallery, to which the Committee referred in 1976, but such figures should be shown for all projects. in the Civil Works Program.

75

(iii) National Capital Development Commission Capital works undertaken by this Commission amount to $,196.75 million this year (Division 829/5), including, for example, (1) Erection of Technical and Further Education College at Phillip,

$6.4 million {2) Erection of Bus Interchange in Canberra City, $2.4 million (3) Erection of Police Service Centre at Weston, $3.5 million (4) Erection of Archives Repository, $6.25 milliOJ?.

These works are not subject to scrutiny by the Public Works Committee. This Committee again raises the question whether there ought to be some Parliamentary examination of major works before they are undertaken by the Commission. The validity of the contention that commissions should be exempt from the Public Works Committee Act should be re-examined.

(iv) Department of Science - hire C1j aircraft and ships for Antarctic Division (Division 543/ 2/04) $1 930 000 The Committee was told in evidence (Hansard, 20 September 1977, p. 739) that in spite of the fact that the question has been raised over many

years, there has hitherto been no comprehensive study of the benefits of the purchase or construction of ships for Antarctic expeditions instead of hire. The Committee was told that a study now initiated is to take two years. That delay seems inordinate.

(v) Department of the Capital Territory - Canberra Bus Service In its report in October 1976 the Committee referred to the subsidy of $5.41 million for the Canberra bus service. This year the subsidy is estimated to be $6 million (Division 210/ 3/ 10) and in addition capital sums of $2.392 million and $2.95 million under the control of the

Department and the National Capital Development Commission res­ pectively, are provided in association with the bus service.

(vi) Department of the Capital Territory - Subsidy to the Canberra Show-ground Trust (Division 210/ 3/ 17) $126 000 r

In examining this item the Committee was informed that the Chairman of the Sh cwground Trust receives allowances of up to $70.00 per day and members up to $55 .00 per day (Attachment 4). The Committee also ob served the Auditor-General's comments on the absence of proper accounting by the Trust (Auditor-General's Report for 1976-77, p. 160).

(vii) Department of the Capital Territory - Subsidy to the Canberra Theatre Trust (Division 210/ 3/ 4) The Can berra Theatre Trust is subsidised by $199 000 and the Committee notes that there is no subsidy to any similar body in the Northern Terri­ tory.

(viii) Department of Construction - training of apprentices The Committee was told (Hansard, 13 September 1977, p. 396) that while the Department was conscious of the need to take in as many apprentices as possible, it was possible to take only 121 in 1977 and it is planned to take 115 next year, compared with 150 and 213 in the two previous years. This is a significant reduction of the Department's Train­ ing program.

76

(ix) Explanatory Notes The Committee found some difficulty ansmg from the fact that the explanatory notes were not in a common form and in some cases did not follow the layout of the estimates themselves. The view of Estimates

Committee F in its report of May 1977 that there should be some standardisation of the form of explanatory notes is supported. The Com­ mittee commends the form of the notes supplied by the Department of Construction as a model.

5. The Committee records its appreCiation of the assistance of the Minister ior Science and officers of the departments concerned.

6 October 1977

77

R. C. WRIGHT Chairman

ATTACHMENT 1

ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE ON COMPUTERS 1977-78

(Page numbers refer to the Departmental Explanatory Notes)

1. DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE p. 21 Administrative-Computer services $26 000 p.lOl Bureau of Meteorology-Computer services $210 000 p.115 Ionospheric Prediction Service-Computer services $9000 p.149 Antarctic Division-A.D.P. $34 000

2. AUSTRALIAN INSTITUTE OF MARINE SCIENCE p.5 Computer services $25 000

3. COMMONWEALTH SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH ORGANIZATION p.59 Computing-Research $914 400 Computing-Service facilities $5 044 200

p. 9 Revenue from computing service charges $2 188 900 p.59 Revenue from computing services to CSIRO divisions $2 855 300

4. DEPARTMENT OF THE NORTHERN TERRITORY p.ll Computer services $899 000 p.67 Plant and Equipment-Automatic data processing $32 000

5. DEPARTMENT OF CONSTRUCTION p.49 Computer services $2 444 000

6. DEPARTMENT OF THE CAPITAL TERRITORY p.l2 Computer services $563 000 p.77 A.C.T. Police--computer display unit $6100 p.77 A.C.T. Police-computer equipment ordered in previous year but

not paid for $55 000

78

Appropriation Bill (No. 1)

as I know took an initial interest m the activi­ ties within the A.C.T. which has not been taken before. Under Senator Wright's chairmanship, before Estimates Committee E met formally, it toured the developing areas of the Australian Capital Territory and made itself familiar with the general problems and the developments of · this capital city. That was an innovation which

ran before the general discussions of Estimates Committee E.

Senator Devitt-lt had a moderating influ­ ence too, I notice, on the tone of the :r:eport.

Senator WEBSTER-Senator Devitt suggests there may have been a moderating influence. As we have come back into the Committee of the Whole I do not know whether we have seen

any particular moderating influence in the volume of debate. The Estimates Committee generally, having had that initial tour of inspec­ tion, had ta meeting to discuss, as I understand

it, the appropriate points of the estimates over several days in accordance with a procedure designed to reduce the debate in the Committee of the Whole.

I noted the points made by Senator Knight. I shall see that they are directed to the Minister for the Capital Territory (Mr Staley). He, of course, is well aware of Senator Knight's par­ ticular interest in this matter. Senator Kilgariff, in mentioning one or two matters, said that he had a tourist background. I would think it

would be wise for senator Kilgariff to make it clear that that was not by experience in tour­ ing, but because he has had more practical experience than it has been the fortune of most honourable senators to have in the area of

tor.rism. I note the points that he has made.

Devitt drew the attention of the

Committee to the item related to actions and functions of computers. This was a direct refer­ ence :to the report of Senate Estimates Commit­ tee E. I have a statement here and perhaps

instead of my reading it out I could just

explain that it is a statement that responds directly to Senator Devitt's query as to the actions which the Department of the Capital Territory, indeed the Government as a whole, is taking towards the development of com­

puters for 1he national accounts. I seek le,ave

ATTACHMENT 2

10 November 1976 SENATE 1819

to have incorporated in Hansard a paper on the actions and functions related to the use of computers in the Public Service.

The CHAIRMAN-Is leave granted? There being no objection, leave is granted.

The document read as follows-* ACTIONS AND FUNCTIONS RELATED TO THE USE OF COMPUTERS IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE

1. Early this year, the Government directed the Public Service Board to examine the expenditure on computers planned by departments with a view to redudng or delaying some of this expenditure. This

examination is expected to result in substantial savings over a number of financial years. 2. In addition the Government requested the Inter­ departmental Committee on ADP to investigate the potential for rationaLisation of computing resources throughout the Service. This formidable task, which

involves a number of senior departmental officers, is currently proceeding. The Government al,so directed that a special Interdepartmental Committee examine the question of the rationalisation of computing resources in the Welfare/Health area-the work of this Committee has been finalised.

3. Since 1961 the Interdepartmental Committee on ADP, in association with the Public Service Board, has been involved in the co-ordination of the intro­ duction of computer systems into the Service. As part of its normal role, the IDC on ADP requires that the cost/ benefit aspects of every departmental

computer proposal be carefully investigat,ed before it considers the proposal. In this context the proposed usage of computers by the Department of the Capital Territory was examined and supported by the IDC.

4. Of significance also ds the fact that, in 1974,

the Public Service Board made available draft guide­ lines to departments on the approach to be taken on cost/benefit analyses of ADP systems. The guidelines are presently being reviewed and will be formally published as soon as possible.

5. Further, the Public Service Board, as part of its role under Section 17 of the Public Service Aot relating to efficiency and economy, has 'also instituted a series of po-st implementation reviews of departmental com­ puter installations and ADP systems. The first such

review is currently under way in the Bureau of

Meteorology and i,t is planned to carry out two such reviews each year. The reviews are directed towards establishing the efficiency and effectiveness of ADP operations in the terms of achievement of original

objectives, the effectiveness of ADP systems and their integration into departmental operations, the efficiency of computing equipment ultilisation, etc.

6. It might well be said that the wide-ranging review activities mentioned above in sum amount to an inquiry on the scale envisaged by Senate Estimates Committee E.

79

24321!78--4

Senator WEBSTER-Senator McLaren raised several points and I will attempt to answer them. He queried whether responsibility for transport could be transferred to the Department of Administrative Services. I am advised that at the present time a move is under consideration to place control for trans­ port in another area-that means the Depart­ ment of Administrative Services. This is purely under consideration. In mind are .the general

80

moves that are being made towards self­ government in the Territory. There is no sug­ gestion of any reduction in the size of the car fleet at the present time. 1 Senator McLaren referred also to hir.e car plates. For his infor­ mation, I indicate that 10 additional car hire plates are to be balloted to Australian Capital Territory residents in December this year. The decision to issue these plates is to meet the demand from sources. It is not for the

purpose of taking up.

Hansard Report- 8 September 1977 Page: 190 Division: 455-2-05-Computer Services.

Question Chairman

ATTACHMENT 3

'We have been told that an IDC has been reporting for the last two years. I want the Secretary to take notice of the request I make to you that govern­ ment should provide this Committee with that report before these Estimates are passed, if this is an item of a program for the Northern Territory of four

million dollars.'

Answer It is assumed that the Committee referred to is the standing IDC on ADP. This Committee in October 1976 established a sub-committee to investigate and to report on various areas of rationalisation. The sub­

committee has produced an interim report for the IDC's consideration. This report is confidential to the IDC and interim in the total exercise. It should also be stated that the figure of $4 million given as the total of purchasing new computer facilities has been found to be inaccurate. The

proposal that was endorsed by the IDC on ADP estimated the

cost of the facilities at $4.5 million. Subsequent technological advances in hardware manufacture will reduce the cost to $2.684 million. Expenditure will be incurred over a period of 3 years commencing in 1977-78. The error on the part of the witness is regretted.

81

ATTACHMENT 4

CHAIRMAN Hansard Reference-Page 244 DIVISION 210-3-17

Question · How many trustees are there and what fees are they paid?

Answer The Trust is comprised of a Chairman and six Members. The A. C. T. Remuneration Ordinance 197 6 prescribes the following fees and allowances for the Chairman and Members of the Trust:

Attendance at Meetings Chairman Members Engaged on Business Chairman Members Travelling Allowance

3 hours or more $70 per day $55 per day

$70 per day $55 per day

$41 per day

Under 3 hours $45 per day $35 per day

$45 per day $35 per day

The inclusion of $9000 in the estimates provides for the expected level of activity of the Trust in 1977-78 based upon the abovementioned scale of fees and allowances.

82

Esthnates Coniinittee E Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

No.3

THURSDAY, 8 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met in public session at 12.25 p.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 1. The Chairman (Senator Wright) took the Chair.

2. AUDITOR-GENERAL'S OFFICE: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following officers of the Auditor-General's Office: Mr Harald Korte, Acting First Assistant Auditor-General

Mr John Rawling, Acting Chief Executive Officer The officers were examined in relation to the delay in presentation to the Parliament of the Auditor-General's Report for 1976-77. The officers then withdrew.

3. DEPARTMENT OF THE NORTHERN TERRITORY: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of the Northern Territory:

Mr Noel Lynagh, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management Services Division Mr F. C. Thorburn, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance Supply and Vehicles Branch, Management Services Division Mr P. T. Hooper, Chief Veterinary Officer, Animal Industry and Agri­

culture Branch, Lands and Rural Industries Division Mr J. W. Parsons, Acting General Manager, Darwin Reconstruction Commission

Department of Finance: Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer Mr M. Chick, Finance Officer

The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered : Docwnent A* Division 455 Administrative $36 750 000

Division 457 Northern Territory Legislative Assembly $25 400 000 Division 460 Darwin Reconstruction Commission $925 000 Document B* Division 897 Capital Works and Services $18 879 000

Division 898 Darwin Reconstruction Commission $85 000 000 Division 899 Northern Territory Legislative Assembly $24 600 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.

• Document A-'Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1978'. • Document B-'Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978'.

4. DEPARTMENT OF THE CAPITAL TERRITORY: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of the Capital Territory:

Mr R. C. Burroughs, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Supply Mr J. A. Turner, Assistant Secretary, Establishments and ADP Mr C. S. Hamilton, Director, Programs and Budgets Mr B. A. Lewis, Director, ADP Mr A. S. Blunn, City Manager Mr R. Corrigan, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Lands Dr B. H. Pratt, Director, Conservation and Agriculture Mr J. H. Marshall, First Assistant Secretary, Transport and Housing Mr L. L. Gillespie, Commissioner for Housing Mr D. Lander, Assistant Secretary, Transport Operations Mr J. C. Johnson, Superintendent, Management Services, Australian

Capital Territory Police National Capital Development Commission: Mr K. J. Curtis, Secretary and Manager Mr B. M. Browning, Assistant Secretary, Program Management

Mr P. Leonard, Principal Executive Officer, Program Management Department of Finance: Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer Mr M. Chik, Finance Officer

The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 210 Administrative $52 899 000

Sub-divisions 1 and 2 and Items 01-17 of sub-division 3 were considered.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.30 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: Present-Members of the Committee: Senators Devitt, Kilgariff, Robertson, Thomas and Wright. Other Senators: Senators Coleman and Keeffe.

86

R. C. WRIGHT Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMI'ITEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

No.4

TUESDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING OF COMMIITEE: The Committee met in public session at 5.00 p.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 1. The Chairman (Senator Wright) took the Chair.

2. DEPARTMENT OF CONSTRUCTION: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of Construction:

Mr K. J. Rodda, Deputy Secretary Mr W. D. Hamilton, Assistant Secretary (Finance) Mr H. H. Gunn, Acting Assistant Secretary (Works) Department of Finance:

Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer Mr M. Chick, Finance Officer The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 220 Administrative $101 952 000 Consideration of this Division was concluded.

3. DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following officers: Dr Malvern Gilmartin, Director, Australian Institute of Marine Science

Mr Douglas Cunliffe, Executive Officer, Anglo-Australian Telescope Board Department of Finllnce: Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer

Mr M. Chick, Finance Officer Document A Division 550 Anglo-Australian Telescope Board $850 000 Division 552 Australian Institute of Marine Science $2 100 000 Document B

Division 927 Sub-division 4 Australian Institute of Marine Science $2 100 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.10p.m.

5. ATIENDANCE: Present-All members of the Committee and Senator Coleman.

87

R.C.WRIGHT Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

No.5

TUESDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met in public session at 4.05 p.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 1. The Chairman (Senator Wright) took the Chair.

2. DEPARTMENT OF CONSTRUCTION: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of Construction:

Mr K. J. Rodda, Deputy Secretary Mr W. D. Hamilton, Assistant Secretary (Finance) Mr J. H. Gunn, Acting Assistant Secretary (Works)

Department of Finance: Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer Mr M. Chick, Finance Officer'

The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 224 Repairs and Maintenance $92 542 000

Division 245 Defence-Buildings and Works $72 600 000 Division 246 Defence-Repairs and Maintenance $48 400 000

Document B Division 831 Capital Works and Services $98 018 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.

3. DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers:

Department of Science: Mr T. J. Petry, Assistant Director, Engineering Operations, Antarctic Division Mr G. H. Nichol, Executive Officer, Antarctic Division Mr J. F. Turner, Principal Physicist, Ionospheric Prediction Service Mr A. F. A. Harper, Executive Member, Metric Conversion Board Mr W. D'E. Lockwood, Administrative Officer, National Standards

Commission

Department of Finance: Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer Mr M. Chick, Finance Officer

88

The following · particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 543 Antarctic Division $6 900 000

Division 545 Ionospheric Prediction Service $747 200 Division 546 Metric Conversion Board $437 000 Division 547 National Standards Commission $460 500 Document B

Division 92 7 Capital Works and SerVices Sub-division 1 Buildings and Works Item 01 Antarctic Division $208 000 Item 02 National Standards Commission $72 000

Sub-division 2 Plant and Equipment Item 01 Antarctic Division $650 000 Item 04 National Standards Commission $55 000 Item OS Ionospheric Prediction Service $30 000 Division 929 Other Services

Sub-division 02 Antarctic Transport System-Design Study $50 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.10 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: Present-All members of the Committee and Senator Coleman.

89

R.C. WRIGHT Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMI'ITEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.6 THURSDAY, 22 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met in public session at 4.50 p.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 1. The (Senator

Kilgariff) took the Chair. 2. DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers:

Department of Science: Mr P. B. Free, Senior Assistant Secretary, General Services Division Mr R. A. Leslie, Senior ·Assistant Secretary, Space Projects Branch Mr C. A. Webster, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch

Mr D. J. Keane, Principal Project Officer, Policy Division · Mr V. Bahr, Assistant Director, Management, Bureau of Meteorology Mr K. J. Walshe, Executive Officer (Finance and Supply), Bureau of Meteorology Department of Finance:

Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer Mr M. Chick, Finance Officer The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A

Division 540 Administrative $5 502 800 Division 542 Analytical Services $3 564 500 Division 544 Commonwealth Bureau of Meteorology $34 950 000 Document B

Division 927 Capital Works and Services Sub-division 2 Plant and Equipment Item 02 Commonwealth Bureau of Meteorology $1150 000 Item 03 Analytical Services $200 000

Item 06 Space Projects Branch $69' 000 Division 928 Payments to or for the States $10 155 000 Division 929 Other Services Item 01 Australian Participation in the LANDSAT Program $140 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded. The following division was considered: Document A

Division 544 Commonwealth Scientific and Research Organisation $131 248 000 3. ADJOURNMENT: 1be Committee adjourned at 11.05 p.m. till Tuesday, 4 October 1977 at 9 a.m. 4. ATTENDANCE: Present-All members of the Committee and Senators Coleman and Wriedt.

R. C. WRIGHT Chairman

90

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITIEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

No.7

TUESDAY, 4 OCTOBER 1977

1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met in public session at 9 a.m. in the Senate Chamber. The Chairman (Senator Wright) took the Chair.

2. DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following officers:

Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization: Mr I. C. Bogg, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Finance and Property Mr P. Butler, Acting Secretary (Research), Science Branch Dr J. B. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Science Branch

Mr A. Charles, Assistant Secretary, Science Branch Mr K. Avent, Assistant Secretary, Science Branch Mr H. Kwong, Acting Chief Finance Officer Mr R. J. Garrett, Acting Senior Finance Officer

Mr G. P. Warden, Scientifi'c Services Officer

The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered:

Document A Division 554 CSIRO $131 248 000

Document B Division 927 Capital Works and Services Sub-division 3 CSIRO $,2 800 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.

3. DEPARTMENT OF THE CAPITAL TERRITORY: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers:

Department of the Capital Territory: Mr R. C. Burroughs, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Supply Mr J. A. Turner, Assistant Secretary, Establishments and ADP Mr C. S. Hamilton, Director, Programs and Budgets

Mr B. A. Lewis, Director, ADP Mr A. S. Blunn, City Manager

National Capital Development Commission: Mr K. J. Curtis, Secretary and Manager Mr B. M. Browning, Assistant Secretary, Program Management Mr P. Leonard, Principal Executive Officer, Program Management

91

The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 210 Administrative $52 899 000

Division 212 A.C.T. Legislative Assembly $295 000 Division 213 A.C.T. Police $11 272 000 Division 214 National Capital Development Commission $.8 150 000 Document B Division 829 Capital Works and Services $211 349 000 .

4. REPORT OF COMMIITEE: The Chairman stated that he would consult members of the Committee and seek their agreement on matters to be included in the Committee's report to the Senate.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.40 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: Present-Members of the Committee: Senators Kilgariff, Robertson, Ryan, Thomas and Wright. Other Senators: Senators Coleman, McLaren and Wriedt.

92

R.C. WRIGHT Chairman

mE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

No.8

THURSDAY, 6 OCTOBER 1977

1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met in private session at 10.05 a.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 5. The Chairman (Senator Wright) took the Chair.

2. REPORT OF COMMITTEE: The Chairman presented a draft report to the Senate. Paragraph 4(iv) amended. Senator Ryan moved that paragraph 4(v) be omitted. Question put and

negatived. Senator Robertson moved that a sub-paragraph be added on the subsidy to the Canberra Theatre Trust. Question put and passed. Sub-paragraph (vii) of paragraph 4 added accordingly.

Senator Robertson moved that a sub-paragraph be added on the inability of the Committee to adequately assess the effectiveness of the expenditure by the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization. Question put and negatived.

Senator Robertson moved that a sub-paragraph be added on the decline in the Department of Construction's training program. Question put and passed. Sub­ paragraph (viii) of paragraph 4 added accordingly. Senator Coleman moved that a sub-paragraph be added on the difficulty created

by the lack of standardisation of the form of explanatory notes. Question put and passed. Sub-paragraph (ix) of paragraph 4 added accordingly. It was agreed that the draft report as amended be presented to the Senate. 3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.50 a.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: Present-All members of the Committee and Senator Coleman.

93

R. C. WRIGHT Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee F has the honour to report to the Senate. 1. On 25 August 1977, the Senate referred to the Committee the Depart-mental Estimates for the year 1977-78 relating to the following Departments: Attorney-General's

Employment and Industrial Relations Productivity Business and Consumer Affairs Veterans' Affairs

2. The Committee has considered these Estimates, together with the De­ partmental Explanatory Notes, and has received evidence in relation to them from the Attorney-General, Senator Durack, and officers of the Departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the

evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with the Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1977-78 and the Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1977-78. Certain answers to questions asked at the hearings which were deferred and subsequently given in writing are incorporated in the Hansard

reports. Additional replies, received since the Committee's last hearings, are included as an Appendix to the Report, and arrangements are being made, so far as practicable, for the incorporation of this material in the final Hansard reports of the Committee's hearings.

3. The Committee wishes to draw attention to the following:

(a) As at previous hearings, the Committee had occasion to raise with the Attorney-General's Department the question of consultancies, and sought from the Department the terms of agreement between the Department and one of its consultants. The generous provisions of the agreement led

the Committee to ask whether any guidelines were laid down for the engagement of consultants. The answer provided is at pp. 772-3 of Hansard, 20 September 1977. The brief guidelines submitted to the Committee suggest that there has been an ad hoc approach to the

engagement of consultants by successive Governments, possibly involving some exorbitant contractual commitments for the return obtained. The Committee points out that the question of consultancies has consistently been a matter of concern during each of its last three pro­

ceedings. It considers that the whole matter of consultancies to all Departments and authorities should be given a more thorough examin­ ation. It therefore recommends to the Senate that the following matter be referred to the Standing Committee on Finance and Government

Operations for investigation and report: Procedures and practices of the Commonwealth in relation to the engagement and employment of consultants.

(b) The Committee asked the Department of Employment and Industrial Relations to comment upon criticisms made by the Auditor-General in

97

his 1976-77 Report. The criticisms related to matters to which the Auditor-General had directed his attention in at least two previous reports. Departmental officers explained that, despite revisions which had been made to the procedures criticised, the Auditor-General was still not satisfied that the Department was complying with certain requirements of the Audit Act. The Department subsequently advised Committee of attempts being made to fulfil the Auditor-General's

requirements, particularly in relation to the National Employment and Training Scheme. This advice is included in the Appendix to the Committee's Report.

The Department indicated that the Auditor-General, 'having reached a degree of satisfaction with' day-to-day accounting controls, was now 'concerned with Central Office interpretations, and directives to Regional Offices, concerning the conditions of the Scheme and the manner in which they should be administered'. The Department is currently con­ sidering its attitude to the specific questions raised by the Auditor­ General in relation to these policy issues. It advised, however, that particular attention was being given to matters such as the recovery of

overpayments under the NEAT Scheme and the improvement of adminis­ trative procedures.

The Department drew to the Committee's attention a number of problems which militated against satisfactory administration of the Scheme. It indicated that the staff resources which could be allocated to Internal Audit were subject to constraints imposed by both staff ceilings, and the availability of suitably qualified staff. Further, the need to integrate payment arrangements under the NEAT Scheme with the Social Security System presents problems to the Department.

The Committee is satisfied that the Department is attempting to improve its procedures to obviate the criticisms made by the Auditor­ General, but will again pay close attention to this matter during its consideration of the supplementary Estimates in 1978.

(c) During its examination of the Department of Employment and Industrial Relations' Estimates, which included the Estimates of Commonwealth Hostels, the Committee discovered what appears to be a saga of conflict between Commonwealth, State and local authorities concerning the Wiltona Hostel in Melbourne, culminating in an impasse between the Commonwealth and a local government council. The General Manager of Commonwealth Hostels has provided a brief outline, included as an Appendix to this Report, of the vicissitudes of Wiltona Hostel, par­ ticularly since 1971. Information sought by the Committee concerning the hostel was received too late for a more detailed examination. The Committee considers that this matter, too, warrants further investigation by the Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations, and therefore recommends to the Senate that the following matter be referred to that Committee for investigation and report:

The establishment, operation and disposal of Wiltona Hostel, Mel­ bourne, Victoria.

98

4. In addition to the detailed scrutiny of the Estimates, the Committee has concerned itself with a number of important principles which relate to the ,efficient operation of Estimates Committees generally. (a) In its report to the Senate in October 1976, the Committee expressed

agreement with the view of the Joint Committee on the Parliamentary Committee System that the scrutiny function of Estimates Committees would be enhanced and made more effective by providing them with both a full-time function and full-time staff.

On 10 November 1976, the Senate resolved that certain matters con­ cerning the effectiveness of Estimates Committees be referred to the Standing Orders Committee. The resolution included an opinion that: ' the effectiveness and scrutiny function of Estimates Com-

mittees could be enhanced by: (i) providing Estimates Committees with some full-time staff . '

The Standing Orders Committee, in reporting to the Senate on 22 February 1977, recommended that, for the time being, no, action be taken upon this part of the resolution, and the Senate adopted its report. Estimates Committee F reiterates the view expressed in its 1976 Report,

and in the Senate resolution, concerning the provision of full-time staff, and recommends that the Senate again refer this matter to the Standing Orders Committee for further consideration. The Committee is, however, cognisant of possible constraints upon the immediate provision of a full-time secretariat to service the operations

of Estimates Committees. It therefore suggests, as an interim measure only, that staff of the Senate Committee Secretariat might be seconded temporarily to Estimates Committees to examine the extensive docu­ mentation provided by Departments, and to assist Committee members

in preparation for the hearings particularly in relation to the listing of matters arising in previous hearings and needing further examination. (b) The Committee was most appreciative of the early provision of the Departmental Explanatory Notes, particularly in view of the comments

made in its May 1977 report. The Committee considers, however, that it must draw to the attention of the Senate the variable quality of the Explanatory Notes. In this regard, the Committee again commends the high standard of the Explanatory Notes of the Department of Employ­

ment and Industrial Relations. The quality of the notes provided by the Department of Productivity was also very high. {c) The Committee's discussion of the question of the inadequacy of departmental notes was prompted, in part, by difficulties encountered in

reconciling the Estimates included in the Budget Documents with the notes provided. The Committee was further disturbed by the inadequacy of the Budget Documents themselves. It elicited the information that, under certain circumstances, persons without access to departmental

explanations and oral advice from officers would find it impossible to reconcile previous outlays with current estimates. The Committee notes that the question of the form and content of the Explanatory Notes is to be the subject of a meeting of Estimates Committee Chairmen and that further recommendations may be

anticipated.

99

(d) While explanatory notes were received commendably early, the Com­ mittee was hampered in its work by problems associated with the late presentation of departmental and statutory reports. The Committee is, of course, mindful of difficulties associated with the early presentation of certain reports, and places on reco:rd its appreciation of the efforts made by the Auditor-General's Office to expedite the presentation of the Auditor-General's Report for 1976-77 to the Parliament.

It considers, however, that delays in the presentation of many reports to the Parliament are inexcusable. A specific example, which first came to the attention of the Committee during its consideration of the 1975-76 Estimates, was the Report of the Commonwealth Arbitration Inspectorate. The Department of Employment and Industrial Relations

advised the Committee on 14 October 1976 that the report was nearing finalisation, and subsequently advised by letter that: 'It is anticipated the 1975-76 report will be presented to the Minister early in November and depending on the printer published copies are expected to be available early in December.' The letter continued:. 'As regards future reports the objective will be to seek to have the reports presented to the Minister before the Budget sittings in the year in which the report falls due.' The 1975-76 report, dated 20 December 1976, was not tabled in the Senate until 24 May 1977. The 1976-77 report has not yet been tabled.

The Committee expected that a further explanation of the delay in production of the 1976-77 report might be forthcoming from the Depart­ ment when answers to other questions raised in the course of the Committee's hearings were provided. However, the material which reached the Committee on 10 October 1977 did not include any further comment on the matter. In view of the Committee's obvious interest in the presentation of the report to Parliament, the Department's omission seems curious. The Committee suggests that the Senate give consideration to deferring passage of the Vote of the Department of Employment and Industrial Relations until details of progress on the 1976-77 report are provided to the Senate. r

5. In conclusion, the Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance given by the Attorney-General and the officers of the various Departments who attended with him before the Committee.

100

P. E. RAE Chairman

Estinlates Collllllittee F Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMI1TEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

No.4

TUESDAY, 8 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee met at 12.25 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair. 2. REPRESENTATIVE OF AUDITOR-GENERAL'S OFFICE: The Chair­ man advised the Committee that, because the Auditor-General's Report had not

been tabled in the Senate, Mr 0. Fenwick, First Assistant Auditor-General, would .be in attendance to assist the Committee if the Committee so desired. Resolved that the Committee accept Mr Fenwick's offer of assistance during its public hearings, and that completion of consideration of departmental estimates

be contingent upon matters which might arise from the Auditor-General's Report when available. ,3. PUBLIC MEE'riNG-STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairma1n' made a statement concerning the reference by the Senate on 25 August 1977 of

the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the year ending on 30 June 1978 relating to the following departmental Estimates:

Division

Document* Page No. Department · Amount

$

A 128-131 690-693 Veterans' Affairs 328 850 000

B 25-26 980-981 Veterans' Affairs 26 281 000

A 56-60 290-295 Employment and Industrial Relations 185 979 000

B 12 838-839 Employment and Industrial Relations 6 822 000

A 26-31 165-190 Attorney-General's 56 824 000

B 8 823-825 Attorney-General's 7 303 000

A 107-109 522-528 Productivity 105 278 000

B 22 921-922 Productivity 6 995 000

A 32-35 195-202 Business and Consumer Affairs . 91 747 000

B 9 826 Business and Consumer Affairs . 1 177 000

* Document A-' Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Serv ice of the year ending on 30 June 1978 ' . .,. Document B-'Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978'.

Ordered that the Estimates be considered in the following order: Attorney-General's Department Department of Business and Consumer Affairs Department of Productivity

Department of Veterans' Affairs Department of Employment and Industrial Relations 4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-ATTOR­ NEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers: Mr F. J. Mahoney, O.B.E., Deputy Secretary Mr A. Neaves, Crown Solicitor

Mr J. Harkins, Director, Australian Legal Aid Office

103

Mr J. Carnsew, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management and Special: Services Division Mr L. G. Glare, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr E. Tudor, First Assistant Secretary, Legislative Drafting Division Mr J. Greenwell, Senior Assistant Secretary, Business Law Branch Mr P. McDonald, Senior Assistant Secretary, Federal Courts and Adminis-

trative Law Review Branch Mr C. Creswell, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Family Law Branch, Mr P. Loof, Senior Assistant Secretary, Human Rights Branch Mr C. Bevan, Acting . Director, Australian Institute -of Criminology Mr N. Sexton, Director, Legislative Drafting Institute

Mr B. C. Quayle, O.B.E., First Parliamentary Counsel Mr R. Styman, Acting Director, Finance Mr R. Venables, Acting Senior Finance Officer Mr R. Mills, Registrar, Administrative Appeals Tribunal Mr K. Nixon, Principal Registrar, Family Court

Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply,· Division Mr M. G. Napier, Finance Officer, Grade 1, Accounting and Supply·

Division

The Attorney-General made a statement relating to the Estimates for the Attorney- ­ General's Department.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 165-190 Attorney-General's Department (Document A) Divisions 823-825 - Attorney-General's Department (Document B)

The Committee proceeding to consider Division 165-Suspension of Sitting: The public meeting of the Committee was suspended at 12.58 p.m. I

5. PRIVATE MEETING: The Chairman advised the Committee that he had discussed with the First Assistant Auditor-General, Mr Fenwick, the limitations imposed on any assistance he might be able to give by the confidentiality of the· contents of the Auditor-General's Report.

Resolved that the Committee would not seek the assistance of Mr Fenwick dur­ ing its public hearings. Suspension of Sitting: The sitting of the Committee was suspended at 1.02 p.m. Resumption of Sitting: At 2.15 p.m. the Committee advised Mr Fenwick that it

would not seek further assistance from him.

6. PUBLIC MEETING: At 2.18 p.m. the Committee resumed consideration of Division 165-Administrative-Attorney-General's Department. Ordered that consideration of Division 165, Sub-division 2, Item 09 be postponed till 8 p.m. this day. The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the· Attorney-General's Department, subject to consideration of Division 165. 2.09 ..

104

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE DEPARTMENT OF BUSINESS AND CONSUMER AFFAIRS: 1977-78-Appearing: Senator the Ron. P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr D. Mentz, First Assistant Secretary, Management Services Division Mr F. I. Kelly, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr H. Bates, Assistant Secretary, Investigation Branch Mr N. F. Brown, Registrar, Prices Justification Tribunal Mr J. V. McKeown, First Assistant Commissioner, Trade Practices

Commission Mr S. Malouf, Secretary, Trade Practices Commission Mr A. G. Koukoulas, Assistant Commissioner, Services Branch, Industries Assistance Commission Mr G. W. Bullivant, Finance Officer, Services Branch, Industries

Assistance Commission Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

Mr M. G. Napier, Finance Officer, Grade 1, Accounting and Supply Division ·

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 195-202 ___. Department of Business and Consumer Afiairs (Document A) Division 826 - Department of Business and Consumer Affairs (Document

B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Business and Consumer Affairs.

8. ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT- CONSIDERATION OF POSTPONED ITEM 165. 2. 09: Consideration resumed of postponed Item 165. 2. 09. The Committee concluded its consideration of the postponed Item.

·9. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78 -DEPARTMENT OF PRODUCTIVITY: Appearing: Senator the Ron. P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by following officers:

Mr D. J. O'Connor, Controller-General, Management Mr J. H. Sharpe, Assistant Controller, Guided Weapons and Electronics Mr A. P. Foley, Acting Director, Aircraft Mr H. J. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Finance and Management

Services Mr T. J. McMahon, Chairman, Australian Industrial Research and Development Incentives Board Mr J. Clarke, Assistant Secretary, Industry Efficiency Mr D. Casey, Assistant Secretary, Operations and Promotion Mr K. McKnown, Assistant Secretary, Finance Mr E. C. Bum, Assistant Commissioner, Administration, Patent, Trade­

marks and Designs Offices

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Department of Finance: Mr C . .J. Dolman, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr M. G. Napier, Finance Officer, Grade 1, Accounting and Supply

Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 522-528 - Department of Productivity (Document A) Divisions 921-922 - Department of Productivity (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Productivity.

10. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.43 p.m. till Tuesday, 13 September 1977, at 4 p.m.

11. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Rae (Chairman) and Senators Bishop, Jessop, Tehan and Wheeldon. Senator Mulvihill also participated in the Committee's proceedings.

106

P.E.RAE Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMIITEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

No. S

TUESDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee met at 5 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair. ·

2. AUDITOR-GENERAL'S REPORT 1976-77: The Committee noted that the Auditor-General's Report had been tabled in the Senate this day.

3. PUBLIC MEETING: PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

l\1r G. T. Miller, First Assistant Commissioner Mr K. H. Ryan, Acting Director (Finance) Dr l\1. M. Kehoe, Deputy Chief Director (Medical Services) Mr J. W. Muir, Acting First Assistant Commissioner (Treatment Services) Mr J. Brotherson, Acting Assistant Commissioner (Treatment Services) Mr R. J. Hill, Acting Assistant Commissioner Mr A. Selleck, General Manager, Defence Service Homes Corporation

Mr C. Stenhouse, Manager (Corporation Planning), Defence Service Homes. Corporation Department of Finance: Mr R. J. McAtee, Acting Senior Finance Officer, Grade 2, Accounting and

Supply Division Mr M. G. Napier, Finance Officer, Grade 1, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 690-693 - Department of Veterans' Affairs (Document A) Divisions 980-981 - Department of Veterans' Affairs (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of Divisions 690-693 and 980-981. The Committee re-considered Division 690.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Veterans' Affairs.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART­ MENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr B. Tregillis, Deputy Secretary Mr J. Limbrick, First Assistant Secretary, Manpower Development and Operations No. 1 Division

Mr C. Wood, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Secretariat Division

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Mr J. Cooley, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Information Branch, Management and Secretariat Division Mr B. Hook, General Manager, Commonwealth Hostels Ltd, Sydney Department of Finance:

Mr R. J. McAtee, Acting SeniorFinance Officer, Grade 2, Accounting and Supply Division Mr M. G. Napier, Finance Officer, Grade 1, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 290-295 - Department of Employment and Industrial Relations (Document A) Divisions 838-839 - Department of Employment and Industrial Relations (Document B) The Committee proceeding to consider Division 290, Sub-division 3-0ther Services-

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.11 p.m. till a day and hour to be fixed.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Rae (Chairman) and Senators Bishop, Jessop, Tehan Wheeldon. Senators Button and Mulvihill also participated in the proceedings of the Committee.

108

P'. E. RAE Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

No.6

TUESDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.09 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPART­ MENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS-DIVISION 290, SUB-DIVISION 3: Appearing: Senator the Ron. P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by

the following officers: Mr B. Tregillis, Deputy Secretary Mr J. Limbrick, First Assistant Secretary, Manpower Development and Operations No. 1 Division

Mr C. Wood, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Secretariat Division Mr J. Cooley, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Information Branch, Management and Secretariat Division Mr B. Hook, General Manager, Commonwealth Hostels Ltd, Sydney Department of Finance:

Mr C. J. Dolman, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr M. G. Napier, Finance Officer, Grade 1, Accounting and Supply Division Consideration resumed of Division 290-Administrative-Sub-division 3-0ther

Services. The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Employment and Industrial Relations.

3. REPLIES TO REQUESTS FOR INFORMATION: The Chairman reported that answers had been received from the following departments and authorities: Industries Assistance Commission-13 September 1977 Department of Productivity-IS September 1977

Department of Business and Consumer Affairs-16 September 1977 Attorney-General's Department-20 September 1977 Ordered that certain written replies to Questions be incorporated in Hansard.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.04 p.m. till a day and hour to be fixed.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Rae (Chairman) and Senators Bishop, Jessop, Tehan and Wheeldon. Senators Button and Mulvihill also participated in the proceedings of the Committee.

109

P.E.RAE Chairman

mE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITI'EE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

No.7

TUESDAY, 11 OCTOBER 1977

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 6 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.

2. MINUTES: The Minutes of the Meetings of 8, 13 and 20 September 1977, previously circulated to Committee members, were confirmed.

3. DRAFT REPORT: The Chairman presented a Draft Report for the Com­ mittee's consideration. The Committee agreed to the Report on the motion of Senator Bishop, seconded by Senator Jessop.

4. ADDITIONAL REPLIES: Resolved that, as far as practicable, written replies to questions asked during the Committee's hearings be incorporated in Hansard.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.10 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Rae (Chairman) and Senators Bishop, Jessop and Tehan. Senator Mulvihill also participated in the Committee's proceedings.

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P.E.RAE Chairman