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Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1978-79 - Reports - Together with Hansard record of proceedings - Committees A, B, C, D and E on Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for year - 1977-78


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The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D and E

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Additional Estimates 1977-78

Brought up and ordered to be printed 11 May 1978

Parliamentary Paper No.l9/1978

Parliamentary Paper No. 19/1978

The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITEES A, B, C, DandE

. Reports to the Senate on Departmental Additional Estimates 1977-78

The Commonwealth Government Printer Canberra 1978

l. Resolutions of the Senate 2. Estimates Committee A-Report . . . . .

CONTENTS

Minutes of Proceedings 1978-7 Aprill978 2May1978 4 May 1978

8 May 1978 9 May 1978

3. Estimates Committee B-Report . . . . .

Minutes of Proceedings 1978-7 April1978 2 May 1978 4 May 1978

8 May 1978 10 May 1978

4. Estimates Committee C-Report . . . . .

Minutes of Proceedings 1978-7 April1978 2 May 1978 5 May 1978

8 May 1978

5. Estimates Committee D­ Report Appendix 1 Appendix2

Minutes ofProceedings 1978-12 April 1978 4 May 1978 5 May 1978

10 May 1978

6. Estimates Committee E-Report . . . . .

Minutes of Proceedings 1978-6 Aprill978 2Mayl978 4May 1978

5 May 1978 10 May 1978

Page 3

7

13 14 16 19 22

25

29 30 33 37 38

41

47 48 51 53

57 61 62

65 66 68 70

73

77 78 79 82 85

RESOLUTIONS OF THE SENATE

RESOLUTIONS PASSED ON 16 MARCH 1978

ESTIMATES COMMITTEES-APPOINTMENT: The Leader of the Government in the Senate (Senator Withers), by leave, moved-That, in accordance with Stand­ ing Order 36AB, five Estimates Committees be appointed to be known as Esti­ mates Committees A, B, C, D and E; and that the Committees consider the

Proposed Expenditure in relation to Departments, as follows:

Estimates Committee A Department of Administrative Services Parliament Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet Department ofTrade and Resources Department of Foreign Affairs

Department of Defence Department of the Special Trade Representative

Estimates Committee B Department ofEducation Department ofTransport Department of the Treasury Department ofNational Development Postal and Telecommunications Department

Department of Environment, Housing and Community Development

Estimates Committee C Department of Social Security Department of Finance Department of Aboriginal Affairs Department of Health Department oflmmigration and Ethnic Affairs

Department of Home Affairs

Estimates Committee D Department of Science Department of Primary Industry Department of the Northern Territory Department of Construction Department of the Capital Territory

Estimates Committee E Attorney-General's Department Department oflndustry and Commerce Department of Employment and Industrial Relations

Department of Productivity Department of Business and Consumer Affairs Department of Veterans' Affairs

Debate ensued.

Question- put and passed.

3

ESTIMATES COMMITTEES-APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS: The President · informed the Senate that he had received letters from the Leader of the Govern­ ment in the Senate and the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate nominating Senators to serve on Estimates Committees, as follows:

Estimates Committee A Senators Knight, Douglas McClelland, McLaren, Scott, Sibraa and Sim. Estimates Committee B Senators Collard, Colston, Martin, Mulvihill, Townley and Wriedt. Estimates Committee C

Senators Brown, Grimes, Messner, Ryan, Sheil and Walters. Estimates Committee D Senators Kilgariff, Maunsell, Primmer, Robertson, Thomas and Walsh. Estimates Committee E

Senators Bishop, Coleman, Jessop, Mcintosh, Rae and Tehan. The Minister for Science (Senator Webster), by leave, moved-That the Senators, having been duly nominated in accordance with Standing Order 36AB, be appointed members of the respective Committees. Question-put and passed.

c

RESOLUTION PASSED ON 2 MAY 1978

PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-1978-PAPERS-REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Minister for Administrative Services (Senator Withers), by Command of His Excellency the Governor-General, laid upon the Table the following Papers:

Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June I978. Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978.

Reference to Estimates Committees: Senator Withers, by leave, moved-( 1) That the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1978 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Ad­ ditional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978 be re­

ferred herewith to Estimates Committees for examination and report. (2) That the Committees report to the Senate on or before Tuesday, 9 May 1978. Question-put and passed.

RESOLUTION PASSED ON 5 MAY 1978

ESTIMATES COMMITTEES-EXTENSION OF TIME TO REPORT: The Min­ ister for Education (Senator Carrick), by leave, moved-That the Resolution of the Senate, dated 2 May I978, relating to the consideration of particulars of proposed additional expenditure I977-78 by Estimates Committees be varied so that, unless otherwise ordered, Estimates Committees report to the Senate on or

before Thursday, II May 1978. Question-put and passed.

4

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee A has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 2 May 1978, the Senate referred to the Committee the Additional Esti-mates for the year 1977-78 relating to the following Departments:

Parliament Administrative Services Prime Minister and Cabinet Trade and Resources

Foreign Affairs Defence Special Trade Representative.

2. The Committee considered the Additional Estimates and received expla­ nations from the President of the Senate (in relation to the Parliamentary Depart­ ments), the Minister for Administrative Services, the Minister for Science and officers of the Departments. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in con­ nection with Appropriation Bill (No.3) 1977-78 and Appropriation Bill (No.4)

1977-78.

3. Additional written replies received after the Committee hearings have been distributed to members of the Committee, and the other Senators involved, and they will also be incorporated in Hansard. A number of other written replies are still awaited by the Committee.

4. The Committee wishes to draw attention to the following matters:

(a) Classification of Appropriations

The Committee is aware of the Senate ;s persistent efforts, over the years, to ensure a classification of appropriations consistent with constitutional intent. In examining estimates, the Committee applies the test as to whether the vari­ ous items of proposed expenditure included in the non-amendable Appropri­

ation Bill can be defined as 'ordinary' and 'annual' services of the Govern­ ment. In this examination two particular items-Commonwealth Heads of Government Regional Meeting, Sydney­ Compensation for businesses affected by security arrangements: $190 000

(Department of Administrative Services, division 130 , sub-division 3, item 18), and

United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights-Commemora­ tion: $15 000 (Department of Foreign Affairs, division 315 , sub-division 3, item 10)

appear to the Committee to have failed that test. From the information avail­ able the Committee is unable to define this expenditure as being either 'ordi­ nary' or 'annual' which, in relation to the second item, is a view seemingly shared by the Department of Foreign Affairs by its reference in the explana­

tory notes to the proposed expenditure being' . . . a new initiative .. . '.

7

(b) Advance to the Minister for Finance

The Committee is disturbed by two matters which arose during the examination of the Department of Foreign Affairs.

In the first case, the Committee was advised that the department's bid for funds was $143 000 for representation at overseas conferences (division 315, sub-division 2, item 04). This figure was subsequently reduced to $50 000 by the Department of Finance and included in Appropriation Bill (No. 3). Further questioning revealed that the' dispute' between the two departments had been ' removed from the Additional Estimates to another area, that is , the advance to the Treasurer' (Hansard, May 1978, p. 404 ).

The second case involved the Department of Foreign Affairs seeking inclusion in the Additional Estimates of an amount of $24 000 for a ' new initiative to establish a Committee on Australia's relations with the Third World and to Australia's future relations with these Third World

countries'. The Committee was informed that the Department of Foreign Affairs was advised ' . by the Department of Finance that the

amount was to come from the Advance to the Minister for Finance' (Hansard, 8 May 1978, p . 410).

It has long been accepted and understood by the Senate that the Advance to the Minister for Finance, approved by the Parliament with the passing of Appropriation Bills Nos 1 and 2, provided for advances recoverable during the financial year from moneys examined and approved by the Parliament with the. passage of Appropriation Bills Nos 3 and 4. The only amounts which remain 'a charge to the appropriations for the advance to the Minister for Finance are urgent and unforeseen expenditures which arise between the time of preparation of Appropriation Bills Nos 3 and 4 and the close of the financial year. Indeed Senators are reminded of these principles by a reading of pages 36 37 of the Parliamentary Handbook on Commonwealth Financial Affairs (March 1977) which was issued by the Department of Finance.

The two cases cited above appear to the Committee, prima facie, to be a misuse of the funds approved by the Parliament for the Advance to the Minister for Finance.

The Committee accordingly recommends to the Senate that the matter be referred for inquiry and report to the Senate Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations.

(c) Audit Inspections of Overseas Posts-Department of Foreign Affairs

In evidence to the Committee during the Budget Hearings, it was stated that the Department of Foreign Affairs planned audits of overseas posts every 12 months, but because of financial stringencies, this period was extended to 18 months.

The Committee subsequently noted the comments of the Auditor-General in his 1976-77 annual report concerning the accounting deficiencies at certain overseas posts and his contention that ' maintenance of a regular program of internal audit inspections is welcomed and considered essential by my Office

as an accounting control'.

8

During this examination the Committee was told that the current average frequency of audits is once every 18 months to 2 years and that because of the effects of staff ceilings ' no steps have been taken to increase the frequency of audits'.

The Committee therefore recommends that the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence look closely at this aspect of the Department during its consideration of the matter referred to it by the Senate on 1 March 1978, viz.: Australian representation overseas-the Department of Foreign Affairs.

(d) Parliament's Appropriations

The Committee again raises a matter for the consideration of the Senate which was referred to in the Report from the Committee appointed by Government Senators on Appropriation Bills and the Ordinary Annual Services of the Government (Parliamentary Paper No. 55 of 1967,

paragraphs 98 to 101 ).

This Committee firmly holds the view expressed in that report that the appropriation for Parliament is not an ordinary annual service of the Government. Parliament is a separate arm of Government to which the executive is accountable, and it must be master of its own,affairs.

The Committee suggests to the Senate that the time is long overdue for the appropriation for Parliament to be excluded from the non-amendable Appropriation Bill for the ordinary annual services of the Government, and included in a Special Appropriation Bill which is subject to Senate

amendment.

(e) Senate Staff Ceilings

This Committee has for some time been concerned about staff ceilings being imposed on the Parliament by Government. This view in no way implies criti­ cism of the Presiding Officers, whom we believe acted responsibly in respond­ ing to that particular part of the Government's decision to effect general

economies in public spending.

We are, however, of the view that the Government's agency in this area, the Public Service Board, whilst possessing acknowledged expertise in the structure and organisation of the Government bureaucracy, does not have the knowledge and understanding of the staffing requirements necessary for, and

peculiar to, the Parliament. Nor do we believe it is necessary for the Govern­ ment or the Public Service Board to now attempt to acquire it. The Parlia­ ment might do well to consider making other arrangements.

We note that, due to the pressures on the Senate, the President of the Sen­ ate has found it necessary to ask for an increase in the staff ceiling of the De­ partment of the Senate. Furthermore, we note that matters currently being considered by Senators in relation to an expansion of Senate Committee ac­

tivity will, if agreed to, certainly require a further increase.

While the Public Service Board continues to have a role in the determi­ nation of staff support for the Parliament the Committee intends to closely watch the responses of both the Government and the Board to proposals of the President of the Senate, and where appropriate the Presiding Officers. We

offer our support to the President in his discharge of that duty.

9

(f) Hansard Staff During the Committee's examination of the Department of the Parliamen­ tary Reporting Staff, the Committee pursued in some detail the problems which face the Department in attempting to maintain the exceptional service it provides to the Parliament. We have been aware that for some time, Han­ sard has found great difficulty in attracting suitable staff due to the salaries paid to the Reporters, as compared with those of the States and Court Re­ porters, and the volume of work and hours of duty expected from the Com­ monwealth Hansard staff.

To underline this point, the Committee refers Senators to a Table of Com­ parison on pages 135 to 13 7 of the Estimates Committee Hansard for 4 May 1978. The Committee was informed that approaches to the Public Service Board for salary increases have been unsuccessful. We were further informed that no overtime is paid to the Reporters, and that in the last 12 to 15 years, '50 per cent of . . retirements (from Hansard) have been on the ground of ill-health'.

As a first step, the Committee urges the Presiding Officers to approve pay­ ment to those eligible Parliamentary staff an allowance in lieu of overtime. The Committee notes that Ministerial and Opposition private secretaries receive such an allowance.

In relation to Hansard in particular,. we believe that this action will go some of the way in attracting suitable staff to its service (Hansard, 4 May 1978, p. 140). In relation to the allowance generally, payment of it to the eligible staff oft,he Parliament is no more than a simple matter of justice ..

(g) Estimates Committees The Committee found the experiment of research assistance for Estimates Committees to be very encouraging and wishes to record its appreciation of the work of the staffofEstimates Committee A. We look forward to a further decision by the Senate towards a full-time function and full-time staff for the Committees.

5. The Committee records its appreciation for the explanations provided by the President of the Senate, the Minister for Administrative Services, the Minister for Science and the officers of the various Departments who assisted during the examination.

11 May 1978

10

J.P. SIM Chairman

Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.1

FRIDAY, 7 APRIL 1978

1. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee met at 9.30 a.m.

2. APPOINTMENT AND MEMBERSHIP OF ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Resolutions of the Senate of 16 March 1978 relating to the appointment of Estimates Committee A and the membership of the Committee were reported.

3. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: On the motion of Senator McLaren, Senator Sim was elected Chairman of the Committee.

4. RESEARCH FOR COMMITTEE: The Chairman advised that the staff of the Committee had been authorised to undertake research for the Committee and that a Research Officer had therefore been seconded to assist the Secretary.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.45 a.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tors Sim, Douglas McClelland and McLaren. ( 3)

13

J.P. SIM Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.2

TUESDAY, 2 MAY 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.02 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Sim) took the Chair.

2. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Resolution of the Senate of 2 May 1978 relating to the reference to the Committee of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1977-78 was reported.

3. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year ending 30 June 1978, and stated that pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate on 2 May 1978, the Com­ mittee would consider the following departmental estimates:

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 9-11 130-150 Administrative Services 14 155 000

A 22 250 Rent (Defence) 483 000

B 4 . 817 Administrative Services 754 000

A 6- 7 101-109 Parliament 374 000

A 49- 51 500-516 Prime Minister and Cabinet 3 523 300

A 57 430-474 Trade and Resources 3 687 300

B 10 886-952 Trade and Resources 39 177 000

A 33 - 35 315 - 318 Foreign Affairs 7 653 500

A 20 - 22 230 - 242 Defence** 70 399 000

A 56 620 Special Trade Representative 76 700

* Document A- 'Particu1ars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the service of the year ending 30 June 1978 '. * Document B-'Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978 '. * * Excluding items under control of the Departments of Construction and Administrative Services ( Div­

isions 246 and 250).

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES: Appearing: Senator the Rt Hon. R. G. Withers, Minister for Administrative Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr A. R. Palmer, Deputy Secretary Ministerial and Management Services Division­ Mr D. R. White, Acting First Assistant Secretary Mr N. M. Boyle, Assistant Secretary, Personnel and Establishments Branch

Mr P. D. Priestly, Director, Budget and Estimates, Finance and Office Services Branch Grants Authorities and General Branch­ Mr B. E. Hinchcliffe, Assistant Secretary

14

Honours Secretariat-Mr R. Hyslop, Assistant Secretary Property and Survey Division-Mr F. L. Ahrens, First Assistant Secretary

Mr J. H. MacDonnell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Property Branch Mr A. A. Hillier, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Operations Branch Transport and Storage Division-Mr R. W. Davies, First Assistant Secretary

Mr 1. 1. Mason, Director, Finance and Administration Information Services Division-Mr P. A. Nott, First Assistant Secretary Australian Electoral Office-

Mr H. R. Hegarty, Assistant Secretary (Operations) Mr D.P. Reynolds, Director, Management Services Commonwealth Police-Mr L. S. J. Harper, Assistant Commissioner, Administration and Personnel

Department of Finance: Mr D . K . Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Department of Finance. Department of Construction: Mr M.A. Ayres, Acting Principal Executive Officer (Works). The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 130-150- Department of Administrative Services (Document A). The Committee concluded its consideration of Divisions 130-140 and commenced examination of Division 150.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.06 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tors Knight, Douglas McClelland, McLaren, Scott, Sibraa and Sim (6). Senators Sir Magnus Cormack, Georges, Harradine, Mcintosh, 0 'Byrne, Townley and Wright also took part in the Committee's proceedings.

15

24 5X7178 - 2

1. P. SIM

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE- A ' • l' .• ' .. -.. '' MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.' 3. ·'

l;'H·URSDAY, 4: 1978;

I. MEETING: The Committee met at 1.2-.02 p.m. The Ghairma,n(S.enaJor.Sim) took the Chair. ·

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSEJ? DEPARl;MENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES: Appearing: Sena.tor the Rt Bon. R. G. Withers, Minister for Administrative Services, accompanied by the following . · · ,. ' · ' ' ' · · ,. · · ·

Mr A. R. Palmer, Deputy Secret.ary · Ministerial aqd Division.-

Mr D. R. -White, Acting First Assistant Secretary Mr P. D. B_l;ldget, and Finanf e a!ld

Branch.· - · · · - · · · -

and-Survey Djvision-

Mr J. H. Acting Assistant Secretary,Property Branch

Mr A. A. Hillier, Assistant Secretary, Bran<;h

Transp9rt and Storagei)ivision- · ..

Mr R: W. Davies, First Assistant Secretary Mr {J. Diiedor, 'F'inince-and '1\d-ministrat.ion. Information ServiCes Division-MrP. A. Nott, First,Assistant Secretary

M.r \· 11 ..

M.r, L,.

Depm:tme,nt Mr ryf . A. Ayres, Actjng Prjncipal Exe.yutive Officer, (Works}, , 5 , • • ., . I , , , '- . . . _ , '· · ' . _ , -' Departmen,( of Finance: · · -M\'o.· I( Wall'ac;e, The Chair,ll?-an called. 9n, follmying, fo.r:

Division 150- Departn1ent of Services A) ..

Division 250- Rent (Defence) (Document A). Divisiqn_817 - J?epartmept Admini?trattv,e Services !});_ The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Administrative Services.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977- 78-PARLIAMENT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. Condor L Laucke, President of the Senate, ac­ companied by the following officers:

Department of the Senate: MrJ. R. Odgers, Clerk of the Senate Mr. A. R. Cumming Clerk-As?ista!lt Mr H. G. Smith, Usher of the Black Rod.

16.

Mr H. Evans, Deputy Usher of the Black Rod Mr T. H. G. Wharton, Deputy Usher of the B_lack Rod Mr R. G. Mair, Senior Parliamentary Officer (Administration) Parliamentary Reporting Staff-

Mr K. R. Ingram, Principal Parliamentary Reporter Mr F. W. Temperly, Administrative Officer Library-Mr A. L. Moore, Parliamentary Librarian

Mr M. J. Bray, Administrative Officer Mr H. Knight, Finance Officer Joint House Department-Mr R. W. Hillyer, Secretary

Mr R. L. Burrell, Chief Executive Officer Mr M.D. T. Niven, Senior Administrative Officer Department of Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Department ofFinance The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 101-109- Parliament (Document A).

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Parliament. '

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET: Appearing: Senator the Rt Hon. R. G. Withers, Minister for Administrative Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr J. G. Hinton, Assistant Secretary, Special and Management Services Branch Mr A. J. :Prindp

Mr D .. M. Sadlier-Deputy Director-General Mr B. Cowman-Executive Officer Commonwealth Ombudsman-Mr K. K. Crotty, Deputy Ombudsman

Mr W. J. Blick, Acting Assistant Ombudsman Mr P. Gamp, Administrative Officer Auditor-General's Office----, Mr A. A. Taylor-First Assistant Auditor-General, Division C

Public Service Board-Mr R.N. MG:Leod-Secretary Mr V. B. Jabs- Director, Mandata Project Offi.ce Mr F. P. Campbell-Finance Officer Department of Finance:

Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Fif).anc;e Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 500-516 - Departmenrof the Prime Minister and Cabinet ( Doc1,1ment A). /

17

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND RESOURCES: Appearing: Senator the Rt Hon. R. G . Withers, Minister for Administrative Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr S. J. Ryan, Director, Finance and Services Section, Management Services Branch Mr C. B. Brown, Director, Investigation a nd Consultancy Services Section, Trade Promotion and Services Division Mr L. Craig, Executive Officer, Commodities Division No. 2 Mr D. J. G a tes, Assistant Secretary, Uranium Division Trade Commissioner Service-

Mr W. H. Ratcliff, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Branch Export Development Grants Board-Mr H. P. Whitting, Director, Export Development Grants Board Department of Finance:

Mr D. K . Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Department of Finance The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 430- 474- Department of Trade and Resources (Document A).

The Committee concluded its consideration of Divisions 430 and 470 and commen­ ced examination of Division 472.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.01 p.m.

7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tors Knight, Douglas McClelland, McLaren, Scott, Sibraa and Sim ( 6 ). Senators Chaney, Colston, Georges, Jessop, 0 'Byrne, Rae, Wright and Young also took part in the Committee's proceedings.

18

J.P. SIM Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.4

MONDAY, 8 MAY 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.05 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Sim) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND RESOURCES: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following officers:

MrS. J. Ryan, Director, Finance and Services, Management Services Branch Mr R. Moore, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr W. Ratcliff, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Branch Mr J. Swan, Director, Trade Commissioner Services Section, Overseas Branch

Mr D . J. Gates, Assistant Secretary, Uranium Division Mr T. Goss, Director, Insurance and Finance Section, Trade Promotion and Services Division '

Mr H . P. Witting, Director, Export Development Grants Board Mr G. Hall, Assistant Secretary, Export Finance and Services Branch, Trade Promotion and Services Division Department of Finance:

Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Division 4 72 -Trade Commissioner Service (Document A). Division 474- Export Development Grants Board (Document A).

Divisions 886 - 952- Department ofTrade and Resources (Document B).

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Trade and Resources.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENTOF THE SPECIAL TRADE REPRESENTATIVE: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of the Special Trade Representative: Mr R. Moore, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch MrS. J. Ryan, Director, Finance and Services, Management Services Branch Mr T. Francis, Acting Chief Executive Officer, Department of the Special

Trade Representative Department of Finance: Mr D . K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Division for consideration:

Division 620 - Department of the Special Trade Representative (Document A). The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of the Special Trade Representative.

19

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. 1. 1. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr K. McDonald, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Foreign Service Division Mr A. D. Campbell, First Assistant Secretary, International Organisations Division ·

Mr 1. P. Walshe, M.B.E. , Assistant Secretary, Technical Services Branch Mr D. C. Rutter, Assistant Secretary, Administrative Services Branch Mr 1. M. Trotter, Director (Staffing, Training and Head of Mission Section) Mr R. Walker, Assistant Secretary, Nuclear Safeguards Branch Mr P. Fitzgerald, Executive Officer, Administrative Post Liaison and Organis-

ation Section Mr I. D. Wille, Head, Papua New Guinea Bilateral Section Mr R. H. Wyndham, Head, Indo-China Section Mr A. 1. Behm, Foreign Affairs Officer, Class 6, Nuclear Policy Branch Mr R. W. Butler, Head, United Nations Economic Agency Section Mr N. 1. Kelly, Estimates Officer, Management and Foreign Service Division Mr P. M. Knight, Secretariat, Committee on Australia's Relations with the

Third World Mr I. G. Bowden, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Public Affairs and Cultural Relations Division Australian Development Assistance Bureau-

Mr C. E. T Terrell, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Services Branch Mr K. Detto, Acting Assistant Secretary, International Organisations and Liaison Branch Dr 1. R. Baker, Acting Assistant Secretary, Policy Branch Mr N. W. Hunt, Officer in Charge, Finance Section Mr A. E. MacDonald, Acting Officer in Charge, Food Aid Unit Department of Finance:

Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 315 - 318- Department of Foreign Affairs (Document A). The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Foreign Affairs.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENTOF DEFENCE: Appearing: Senator the Hon. 1. 1. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr M. T. Hyland, First Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budgets Division Mr K. T. Lyon, Assistant Secretary, Financial Programs Branch Mr 1. S. 0 'Neill, Assistant Secretary, Budgets and Estimates (General and Co­ ordination) Branch Mr 1. W. Knight, Assistant Secretary, Budgets and Estimates (Services)

Branch Mr T. E. Sullivan, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning (Army) Branch Mr M. 1. Madden, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning (Air Force) Branch

20

Mr P. F. McNamara, Secretai)r,'Resources Planning (Navy) Branch Mr N. C. Yeen9, Chief Executive Officer, Budgets and Estimates (Co-ordination an'd Review) Mr D. M. McAlister, As:sistantSecretary, Ma'npower Policy and Requirement Mr P. 1. Fogarty, Assistant Secretary, Defence Force Industrial BrigadieT I. R. W. Brumfidd, Diredor.:ae·ne'ral, Service Conditions

Mr F. W. McConaghy, Director Civil Persom.i.e'l, Administration_ MrA:. F : k'ent, Assistant Secretary, Planning_ and Evaluation (DlMP) Mr J. F. Vickery, Acting Assis'tant Secretary, Industry Policy and Planning Mr R. Scott, Assistant Secretary, Supply Policy

Mr M. L. Murdoch, 'Chief Executive Officer, Estimates and Programs, Supply Policy B:rmich ·

Mr M. J. Brown, Chief Executive Officer, Program Co-ordination, Defence Facilities Mr D. McDo'nald , Senior Executive Officer, Program Co-ordination, Defence Facilities Mr H. P. Jones, Assistant Defence Science, Administration

Mr R. Vardanega, Assistant Secretary: Natural Disasters Organisation Mr F. W. Mahler, First Assistant Secretary, Management and General Services ,

Major General W. J. Watson, Director ,General, Army Health Services Mr R. Whithear, Chief Executive Officer, Legislation Branch Mr D . Whitty, Assistant Secretary, International Policy (PNG and Defence Co-operation Programs) Commodore R. H. Percy, Director General, Joint Plans and Operations

Commodore I. Burnside, Director General, Recruiting Mr N. Walsh, Director, Co-operation-Material Department of Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 230-242- Department of Defence (Document A). The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Defence. 6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.04 p.m.

7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tors Knight, Douglas McClelland, McLaren, Scott, Sim and Sibraa ( 6 ). Senator Mel­ zer also took part in the Committee's proceedings.

21

1. P. SIM

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.5

TUESDAY, 9 MAY 1978

I. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee met at 9.30 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Sim) took the Chair.

2. DRAFT REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered items for inclusion in the Draft Report.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.14 a.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members were present: Senators Douglas McClelland, McLaren, Scott, Sibraa and Sim ( 5 ).

22

1. P. SIM

Chairman

24587:78- 3

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee B has the honour to report to the Senate.

I. On 16 March 1978, the Senate referred to the Committee the Additional Esti-mates for the year 1977-78 relating to the following Departments: Education Transport

Treasury National Development Postal and Telecommunications Environment, Housing and Community Development.

2. The Committee has cvnsidered these estimates and has received explanations of them from the Minister for Education and from officers of the Departments con­ cerned. A copy of the Hansard report of the evidence is tabled for the information of the Senate with the Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1977-78 and the Appropriation Bill

(No.4) 1977-78.

3. The Committee wishes to draw the attention of the Senate to the following: (a) During the examination of the Postal and Telecommunications Department questions were asked on payments made under Public Service Regulation No. 97-Allowance where officers unable to obtain quarters. The Committee,

after a relatively brief examination, is of the opinion that public servants may make a profit by the present method of application of Public Service Regu­ lation No. 97. It does not consider this is the intention of the Regulation. The Committee therefore recommends a detailed study of and Report to the Sen­ ate on Public Service Regulation No. 97 be made by the Senate Legislative

and General Purpose Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations. ( b) From the inception of Estimates Committees, comments have been made on the appropriateness and detail of the explanations given to Estimates Com­

mittees by statutory authorities and bodies. Over the years it has been appar­ ent that, both in format and detail, explanations of estimates from certain statutory authorities and bodies have been found wanting. A number of generalised suggestions have been made, both in Committee reports and in

Committee, on the way in which such details of estimates should be set out. Despite these suggestions, in many cases, the explanations are still found wanting. Currently, the Senate Legislative and General Purpose Standing Com­

mittee on Finance and Government Operations is conducting an inquiry viz. - 'continuing scrutiny of finance, administration and accountability of Com­ monwealth statutory authorities and bodies owned or controlled by the Com­ monwealth' -a progress report on which was presented to the Senate on 14 September 1977.

In view of the difficulties Estimates Committee B has experienced with 'one line' appropriations the Committee notes with pleasure that the Committee on Finance and Government Operations is considering whether it is appro­ priate and feasible for the estimates of statutory authorities or bodies to be set out in the Appropriation Bills in a simil ar form to the estimates of Depart­

ments. Estimates Committee B is of the opinion that a Report on this aspect

25

of statutory authorities and bodies will be of great assistance to all Estimates Committees. (c) The Committee has noted that a general instruction has been issued to De­ partments that savings in items included in additional estimates should be

shown. However, possible savings in items not included in the additional esti­ mates are not shown. This practice could tend to give the Estimates Com­ mittee a false impression of the state of finances of a Department. The Com­ mittee recommends that all possible savings be listed in a standard form in Departmental explanations of additional estimates. (d) During evidence taken in relation to the Australian Broadcasting Com­

mission, it became apparent to the Committee that there was no witness present who was currently engaged in the television area of the ABC and who could, of his own immediate knowledge, answer questions relevant to that area. It is the opinion of the Committee that, despite the efforts of the officers present to answer such questions, it would have been of much greater benefit were such an officer to have been present. The Committee is of the opinion that Departments and Statutory Authorities and bodies are recreant in their responsibilities to Parliament if they do not provide competent witnesses for such obvious areas of questioning. (e) Again, during evidence given by officers of the Australian Broadcasting

Commission, the question of confidentiality of evidence was raised. This question is one which has been raised in the past concerning the commercial interests of the ABC. The Committee points out that it has no power to take any in camera evidence or to receive any evidence of a confidential nature. relating to confidentiality rest in the hands of the Senate.

(f) Difficulty was again experienced, despite the research assistance provided, because Appropriation Bills Nos 3 and 4 were not presented in the House of Representatives until after the Senate had risen for the fortnight recess. This resulted in Senators experiencing delays in the receipt of their Departmental Explanatory Notes and it prevented Estimates Committees meeting to dis­ cuss the Notes until immediately prior to their public meetings with Depart­ mental officers. The Committee considers that either Appropriation Bills Nos 3 and 4 should be presented to Parliament at an earlier date so that more time is available for consideration of the Departmental Explanatory Notes or that in the case of Additional Estimates, the notes should be made available to Senators prior to the presentation of the Bills. (g) The Committee is concerned that in the future, with only five Estimates Com­

mittees appointed by the Senate, consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the year 1978-- 79 by Estimates Committees following the presentation of the next Budget will be inordinately lengthy. The Committee believes that every effort should be made to find a way to appoint at least one more Estimates Committee so that the work of Estimates Committees can be spread more evenly and present a more valuable but less onerous and time­ consuming task for each Estimates Committee.

26

K.J. MARTIN Chairman

Minutes of . Proceedings

24587178 - 4

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.1

FRIDAY, 7 APRIL 1978

I. MEETING: The Committee met at 9.45 a.m.

2. APPOINTMENT AND MEMBERSHIP OF THE COMMITTEE: The entry in the Journals oft he Senate of 16 March 1978 recording the appointment and member­ ship of the Committee was reported. The Committee membership was: Senators Collard, Colston, Martin, Mulvihill, Townley and Wriedt.

3. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Resolution of the Senate of 2 May 1978 relating to the referral to Estimates Committees of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the year ending on 30 June 1977 was reported.

4. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: On the motion of Senator Collard, Senator Martin was elected Chairman. Senator Martin thereupon took the Chair.

5. PROCEDURE OF THE COMMITTEE: Mr P. Barsdell was introduced to the Committee a nd the Committee was informed that, on a temporary basis, for the dur­ ation of the examination ofParticulars ofProposed Additional Expenditure 1977-78, Mr Barsdell would act as Research Officer to the Committee.

6. OPERATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE: Discussion ensued on the approach which the Committee would take towards questioning, the use which the Committee would make of research assistance, and future meetings of the Committee.

7. ADJOURNMENT: The Meeting adjourned at 10 .17 a.m. till a day and hour to be fixed .

8. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tors Collard, Colston, Martin, Mulvihill and Wriedt. (5)

29

K.J.MARTIN Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.2

TUESDAY, 2 MAY 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.00 p.m. Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.

2. PROCEDURE OF THE COMMITTEE: The Chairman made a statement relat­ ing to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Par­ ticulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure and stated that, pursuant to the order of the Senate of2 May 1978 , the Committee would consider the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the service of the year ending 30 June 1978 relating to the following Departmental estimates:

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 23-26 270 - 279 Education 12 605 000

B 5 835-836 Education 503 000

A 58 655-662 Transport 14 894 000

B 11 958 Transport 36 000

A 59-60 670 - 678 Treasury 7 808 000

A 42-43 430-436 National Development 1 647 000

B 8- 9 883-886 National Development 9 708 000

A 45-46 480- 486 Postal and Telecommunications 6 227 000

A 30 296-303 Environment, Housing and Community Develop-

ment 14 686 000

B 6 841-842 Environment, Housing and Community Develop-

ment 584 500

* Document A-' Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the service of the year ending 30 June 1978 '. * Document B-' Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978 '.

Resolved-That unless otherwise ordered, Departmental Additional Estimates be considered in the following order: Department of Education Postal and Telecommunications Department

Department of Transport Department of the Treasury Department of National Development Department of Environment, Housing and Community Development.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENTOFEDUCATION: Appearing: Senator the Hon. 1. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Education: Mr D. M. Morrison, Deputy Secretary Mr 1. 1. Wilson, First Assistant Secretary, Student Assistance Division

30

Mr R . N. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Departmental Services Branch Mr P. J. Bowler, Assistant Secretary, School and Aboriginal Students Assist­ ance Branch Mr P. B. Kearns, Director, Child Migrant Education

Mr J. W. Morey, Director, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch Tertiary Education Commission-Mr R. W. Pratley, Director, Finance and Management Services Branch Australian Capital Territory Schools Authority-

Mr B.J. Hutchison, Director, Facilities Branch Schools Commission-Mr I. Hossack, Secretary, Schools Commission Mr D. A. Marsh, Director, Management Services

Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 270-279- Department of Education (Document A).

Divisions 835-836- Department ofEducation (Document B).

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Education.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-POSTAL AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Postal and Telecommunications Department: Mr E. E. Payne, First Assistant Secretary, Policy Division Mr P. B. Westerway, Assistant Secretary, Radio Branch Mr A. Westendorf, Director, Management Services Mr D. Large, Executive Officer

Mr B. J. Connolly, Secretary, Australian Broadcasting Tribunal Mr R. Stokes, Executive Officer, Special Broadcasting Service Mr M. Thompson, Acting Director, Special Broadcasting Service Mr W. Funnell, Controller, Finance, Australian Broadcasting Commission

Mr J. Newsome, Director, Radio Resources, Australian Broadcasting Commission

Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 480-486 - Postal and Telecommunications Department (Document A).

and the Committee considering Division 482 - National Broadcasting and Tele­ vision Services-Sub-Division 1 - For payment to the Australian Broadcasting Commission $3 676 000.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.02 p.m. till Thursday, 4 May 1978 at 12 noon, subject to the sitting of the Senate.

31

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tors Collard, Colston, Martin, Mulvihill, Townley and Wriedt. ( 6). Senators Haines, Lewis and Young also attended.

32

K. J. MARTIN Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE 8

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.3

THURSDAY, 4 MAY 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 12 noon. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-POSTAL AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following Officers:

Postal and Telecommunications Department: Mr E. E. Payne, First Assistant Secretary, Policy Division Mr P. B. Westerway, Assistant Secretary, Radio Branch Mr A. Westendorf, Director, Management Services

Mr D. Large, Executive Officer Mr B. J. Connolly, Secretary, Australian Broadcasting Tribunal Mr R. Stokes, Executive Officer, Special Broadcasting Service Mr M. Thompson, Acting Director, Special Broadcasting Service

Mr W. Funnell, Controller, Finance, Australian Broadcasting Commission Mr J. Newsome, Director, Radio Resources, Australian Broadcasting Commission ·

Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

Discussion ensued on a question and answer previously given relating to Division 480-Administrative-Sub-Division !-Salaries and Payments in the Nature of Salaries.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for further consideration: Divisions 482-486 - Postal and Telecommunications Department (Document A).

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Postal and Telecommunications Department.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPAR TMENT OF TRANSPORT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following Officers:

Department of Transport: Mr G. A. Birch, First Assistant Secretary, Finance and Commercial Division Mr M. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Land Transport Policy Division Mr P. Eccles, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Coastal Services Division Mr G. 0 'Halloran, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch

Mr R. Elder, Director, Bilateral Agreements Tariffs and Enforcements Mr J. Black, Budget Officer, Australian National Railways

33

Department of Finance: Mr R. 1. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr 1. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Deputy Chairman (Senator Townley) called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Division 655-662- Department ofTransport (Document A). Division 958- Department ofTransport (Document B).

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Transport.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENTOFTHETREASURY Appearing: Senator the Hon. 1. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by

the following Officers: Department of the Treasury: Mr D. 1. Barry, Director (Finance and General Section), Management Ser­ vice.s Branch

Mr B. Strangio, Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Mr G. M. Wauchop, Acting Director (Establishments Section), Management Services Branch Mr R. S. Stenhouse, Director, Development and Information Section, Office of

the Insurance Commissioner Mr 1. C. Adams, Inspector, Investigations and Legal Section, Office of the In­ surance Commissioner Mr G. S. Mann, Director, Investigations and Legal Section, Office of the In­

surance Commissioner Mr B. Seebach, Senior Finance Officer, Revenue, Loans and Investment Division Mr E. Delofski, Senior Finance Officer, Overseas Economic Relations Division Mr 1. Hartwell, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Institutions Division Australian Taxation Office--'--

Mr 1. Daly, Assistant Commissioner, Management Services Branch Mr 0. Brettell, Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Mr 1. McTigue, Assistant Commissioner, Income Tax Legislation Branch Mr B. Nolan, Executive Officer, General Legislation Branch Mr 1. Faure, Executive Officer, Treaties and Projects Branch Australian Bureau ofStatistics-

Mr P. G. Howell, Assistant Statistician, Management Services Branch Mr 1. W. Maurer, Director (Finance and General Services), Management Ser­ vices Branch Mr 1. A. Webber, Accountant, Management Services Branch Department of Finance:

Mr R. 1. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr 1. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The Deputy Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 670-678- Department of the Treasury (Document A). The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of the Treasury.

34

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPAR TMENT OF NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following Officers:

Mr L. W. Williams, Assistant Director, Operations, Bureau of Mineral Resources Australian Atomic Energy Commission­ Mr A. D. Thomas, Secretary

Mr A. J. Moulding, Assistant Secretary, Finance Dr R. K. Warner, ChiefofProduction Division, Uranium Branch Dr G. Miles, Site Manager, Lucas Heights Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority-

Mr R. E. Comer, Chief Administrative Officer Mr G. W. Goodwin, Acting Assistant Chief Administrative Officer Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch

Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Department of National Development: Mr F. J. Smith, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr L. R. Riches, Acting Director, Finance and General Services

Mr P. P. Power, Acting Assistant Director, Finance and Accounts Mr E. G. Davenport, Assistant Secretary, Growth Centres Programs Branch Mr B. R. Jones, Assistant Secretary, Decentralisation Programs Branch Mr A. A. Garran, Chief Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Division

Mr R. Layland, Assistant Secretary, Energy Policy Division Mr A. Manderson, First Assistant Secretary, Water Division Mr P. H. Langhorne, Senior Executive Officer, Division of National Mapping The Deputy Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 430-436- Department of National Development (Document A). Divisions 883-886- Department of National Development (Document B). The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of National Development.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENT, HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, accompanied by

the following Officers: Mr I. D . Meek, Executive Officer, Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service Dr R . W. Boden, Assistant Secretary, Australian National Parks and Wildlife

Service ·

Mr L. B. Devin, Assistant Secretary, Land Branch Mr R. Mills, Assistant Secretary, Housing Allowance Experiment Mr D . C. Griffiths, Director, Environment Programs Branch Mr G. H allinan, Office for Youth Affairs Department of Finance:

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch

35

Department of Environment, Housing and Community Development: Mr B. P. Sheedy, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Operations Branch Mr R. M. Fry, Supervising Scientist Designate Mr V. J. Kane, Assistant Secretary, Environment Programs Mr G. R. Dempster, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Community Division Mr H. J. Higgs, Acting Director of Environment Mr T. 0. Savimaki, Acting Assistant Secretary, Glebe Mr M. J. Williamson, Assistant Secretary, Private Sector Programs The Deputy Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 296-303 -Department of Environment, Housing and Community De­ velopment (Document A). Divisions 841-842- Department of Environment, Housing and Community De-velopment (Document B). The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure

for the Department of Environment, Housing and Community Development.

The Committee met in deliberative session. 7. FUTURE MEETINGS OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee discussed possible timings for future meetings of the Committee to discuss proposed contents of the Report of the Committee.

8. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.15 p.m. till a day and hour to be fixed.

9. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Colston, Martin, Mulvihill, Townley and Wriedt. (6). Senators Baume, Haines, Ryan and Young also attended.

36

K. J. MARTIN Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B No.4 MONDAY, 8 MAY 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 11.30 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.

2. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: Discussion ensued on matters to be incor­ porated in the Report of the Committee and on advice to be given to the Minister for Education, Senator the Bon. J. L. Carrick, relating to a form of estimates for certain statutory authorities.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.42 p.m. till Wednesday, 10 May 1978, at 9.00 a.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tors Collard, Colston, Martin and Mulvihill. ( 4)

37

K . J. MARTIN Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE 8

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.5 WEDNESDAY, 10 MAY 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 9.15 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.

2. MINUTES: The Minutes of the Meetings held on 7 2, 4 and 8 May 1978 were read and confirmed.

3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered a draft Report to the Senate. After discussion and after cert_ ain amendments having been made: Resolved-That the Report be adopted. 4. ADJOURNMENT: The Meeting adjourned at 9.50 a.m. till a day and hour to be fixed.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tors Collard, Colston, Martin and Mulvihill. ( 4)

38

K. J. MARTIN Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee C has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 2 May 1978, the Senate referred to the Committee the Additional Esti-mates for the year 1977-78 relating to the following departments:

Social Security Finance Aboriginal Affairs Health

Immigration and Ethnic Affairs Home Affairs.

2. The Committee has considered these Additional Estimates and has received explanations of them from the Minister for Social Security and officers of the depart­ ments concerned. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in con­

nection with the Appropriation Bill (No.3) 1977-78 and the Appropriation Bill (No. 4 ) 1977-78.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters:

(a) Annual Reports-(i) The Committee notes with concern the number of occasions on which the late tabling of annual reports of departments and statutory authorities takes place. It is only through detailed research that Senators are aware of

the number of instances on which late tabling occurs. The Committee is aware that the Supplementary Report of the Auditor-General lists the financial statements which are required to be submitted to him for examin­ ation and report which were outstanding at the time of preparation of the Supplementary Report. However, the Committee points out that currently

there is no Parliamentary machinery available to ensure timely tabling of annual reports. To this end the Committee noted recommendations con­ tained in paragraph 34 of tHe Report of the Joint Committee on Publi­ cations, tabled in the Senate on 20 October 1977, namely:

That departments, statutory authorities and other governmental institutions which are not required, by statute, to present an annual report to Parliament but which have had occasion to table an annual report in recent years, be encouraged to continue to present an annual report to Parliament on a consist­ ent basis.

That the Clerks of the Parliament advise the Chairman [of the Joint Committee on Publications] on any occasion where an author body has failed to meet a statutory requirement to table its annual report, return or other document within the stated statutory period, or within a reasonable period of time follow­

ing the completion of the period to which the report refers.

That at the conclusion of each year's sitting, or as often as may be deemed necessary, the Committee table a return in Parliament recording the titles of those reports of author bodies which have not been ta bled during the stated statutory period or within a reasonable period of time following the co mpletion

of the period to which the report refers.

41

The Committee looks forward to the implementation of these recommendations. (ii) During the consideration of the estimates for the Department of Abor­ iginal Affairs attention was drawn to the Annual Report of the Depart­ ment of Aboriginal Affairs in which no mention was made of the activi­

ties of aboriginal enterprises, some of which are substantially funded by the Commonwealth and which are wholly owned by the Common­ wealth. An obvious example is the Company of Applied Ecology Pty Ltd. The Committee is of the opinion that in such instances these companies should submit to the Parliament a report on their activities, together with audited financial statements. The Committee further suggests that where the Commonwealth, through the Department of Aboriginal Affairs, has funded the establishment of a company or enterprise there should be mention of this fact in the Department's Annual Report. Wherever possible and practical, independent reports and audited financial statements should be made available to the Parlia­ ment. The same comments apply to the activities of similar organisations which receive funding through other Commonwealth departments and agencies.

Regarding both (i) and (ii) above, the Committee is conscious of the interest taken by the Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations in annual reports and supports its continuing activity in this field . (b) Advance to the Minister for Finance

During its examination of the estimates for the Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs the Committee sought information concerning a dispute between the Department and the Department of Finance. The dispute resulted in a :reduction in the amount originally sought for inclusion in Appro­ priation Bill (No.3). From information available to the Committee it appears now that the Department's original bid for funds has been agreed to by the Department of Finance and will be funded through the advance to the Minis­ ter for Finance. The Committee is disturbed by the fact that such late-pruning of funds can take place without what would appear to be adequate con­ sultations between the departments involved as indicated by the Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs' comment that- 'When the explanations

were originally prepared it was the belief that the amounts shown, which were in dispute, had been agreed and included in Appropriation Bill No.3'. The Committee has been advised that the intention of the Advance is to provide funds to cover only those items which are 'urgent and unforeseen expenditure which arise between the time of preparation of Appropriation Bills 3 and 4 and the close of the Financial Year'. It would appear that this was not the case in this particular instance.

The Committee firmly believes that such practices are not in the best interest of good and accountable government. Of equal concern, however, is the knowledge that amounts which are funded by the Advance to the Minister for Finance can only be examined at the conclusion of the financial year when the Statement by the Minister is tabled. Accordingly, the examination of items of expenditure takes place after they have been committed or expended. The Committee believes that this practice should not be encouraged as prior Parliamentary scrutiny of the estimates is avoided. As an indication of possible growth in this practice, the Committee points out that the Advance has increased from $40 million in

42

1970- 71 to $226 million in 1977-78 and went as high as $2 70 million in 1975-76. (c) Staffing of Committee The Committee considers that the experiment of providing research assist­

ance to the Committee proved to be worthwhile and of great benefit to the Committee. However, before a decision is made to continue with the exper­ iment in its present form or before full-time staff are appointed to serve Esti­ mates Committees, Estimates Committee Cis of the opinion that a thorough

examination of the role of Estimates Committees and their staffing require­ ments needs to be undertaken. Already some suggestions have been made by · one Committee concerning an expanded function for Estimates Committees. Also, the Standing Orders Committee has given consideration to this matter

in its Reports to the Senate dated March and May 1978 and has made certain interim recommendations thereon. On 16 March 1978 the Committee ofthe Whole debated the provision of research assistance to the Committee. How­ ever, despite the above, no firm conclusions have been reached.

In order to assist the Senate in determining the role of Estimates Com­ mittees and their staffing requirements, Estimates Committee C is of the opinion that the time is now opportune for the Standing Orders Committee or a Committee comprising Estimates Committee Chairmen to undertake are­

view of Estimates Committee operations and report to the Senate as soon as possible. 4. The Committee records its appreciation of the assistance given by the Minister for Social Security and officers of the various departments whose Additional Esti­

mates the Committee considered.

11 May 1978

43

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.1

FRIDAY, 7 APRIL 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 2 p.m.

2. MEMBERSHIP OF COMMITTEE: The entry in the Jo.urnals of the Senate of 16 March 1978 recording the appointment of the following members to Estimates mittee C was reported: Senators Brown, Grimes, Messner, Ryan, Sheil and Walters.

3. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: On the motion of Senator Messner, Senator Walters was elected Chairman. Senator Walters thereupon took the Chair.

4. MANNER OF EXAMINING ESTIMATES: The Chairman referred to the de­ cision of the President to provide research assistance to Estimates Committees. Discussion ensued. Resolved-That the Committee Secretariat undertake research in the following areas:

Hansards of previous Committee hearings Departmental explanatory notes Previous reports of the Committee Auditor-General's Report Specific matters as requested by Committee members.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 2.13 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tors Messner, Sheil and Walters.

47

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.2

TUESDAY, 2 MAY 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Walters) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made an introductory statement and reported to the Committee that the Senate had referred the Additional Estimates for certain departments to the Committee for examination and report.

3. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977- 78: Pursuant to Order of the Senate, the Committee com­ menced consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1978 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978 relating to the following departmental estimates:

Departmental Estimates to be Examined

(Minister: Senator the Hon. M.G. C. Guilfoyle)

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 55 590-591 Social Security 14 257 000

B lO 940-941 Social Security 55 500

A 31 - 32 304- 308 Finance 434 000

B 7 846-847 Finance 22 001 700

A 8 120 Aboriginal Affairs l 945 000

B 4 813 Aboriginal Affairs 204 500

A 36-37 325-335 Health 7 680 000

B 7 853-854 Health 347 000

A 40 270-340 Immigration and Ethnic Affairs 5 750 000

B 8 860- 863 Immigration and Ethnic Affairs 1 235 000

A 38- 39 130-336 Home Affairs l 285 000

B 8 817 Home Affairs 5 300

* Document A-'Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the service of the year ending 30 June 1978'. * Document B- 'Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978 '. 4. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SECURITY: Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, ac­ companied by the following officers:

Department of Social Security: Mr D. Corrigan, First Assistant Director-General (Management) Mr C. Calvert, Assistant Director-General (Finance) Mr J. Lleonart, Assistant Director-General (Management Services) Mr J. Brewer, Director (Establishments) Mr I. Prowse, First Assistant Director-General (Benefits Division) Mr A. S. Colliver, First Assistant Director-General (Social Welfare Division)

48

Mr J. D. Hall, Acting First Assistant Director-General, Rehabilitation Policy and Services Division Mr D. J. Thompson, Acting Director, Aged Persons Welfare Section Mr L. H. Ryan, Assistant Director-General (Special Projects) Department of Finance:

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The Chairman called on Divisions 590-591 , 940-941 , Department of Social Security. The following Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure were considered:

Divisions 590-591 -Social Security $14 257 000 (Document A). Divisions 940-941 -Social Security $55 000 (Document B).

Consideration of the Additional Estimates for the Department completed subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE: Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Finance, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Finance: Mr J. R. Bennett, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Mr A. S. Cole, Assistant Secretary Mr J.D. Maclean, Chief Finance Officer

Mr E. K. Klatt, Finance Officer Mr C. F. Niddrie, Estimates Officer Mr W. J. Brophy, Computer Systems Officer, Automatic Data Processing Branch

Mr P. W. Flint, Acting Chief Finance Officer Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Australian Government Retirement Benefit Office­

Mr D. N. Droop, Director, Services Mr R. R. Jackson, Finance Officer Mr K. A. Webb, Acting Secretary Royal Australian Mint-

Mr K. V. Butcher, Executive Officer The Chairman called on Divisions 304-308 and 846-847, Department of Finance. The following Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure were considered: Divisions 304-308- Finance $434 000 (Document A).

Divisions 846-847- Finance $22 001 700 (Document B). Consideration of the Additional Estimates for the Department completed.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Health, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Health: Mr C. A. Nettle, Deputy Dr W. Langsford , First Assistant Director-General, Public Health Division

49

Mr R. Searle, First Assistant Director-General, Quarantine Division Mr L. Lane, First Assistant Director-General, Management Services Division Mr J. McCauley, First Assistant Director-General, Health Services Division Dr D. Travers, First Assistant Director-General, Medical Services Division Dr D. de Souza, First Assistant Director-General, Therapeutics Division Health Insurance Commission-

Mr. R. Wilcox, Deputy General Manager Capital Territory Health Commission-Mr E. R. Boardman, Commissioner

Mr A. J. Tozer, Assistant Commissioner Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The Chairman called on Divisions 325-335 and 853-854, Department of Health. The following Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure were considered:

Divisions 325-335- Health $7,680,000 (Document A). Divisions 853 - 854- Health $347,000 (Document B). Consideration of the Additional Estimates for the Department completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

7. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.05 p.m.

8. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tor Walters (in the Chair), and Senators Grimes, Messner, Sheil and Ryan.

50

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.3 FRIDAY, 5 MAY 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 12.07 p.m.

2. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF IMMIGRATION AND ETHNIC AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and

Minister representing the Minister for Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs: Mr D. Volker, First Assistant Secretary

Mr G. Kiddie, Assistant Secretary, Settlement Services Branch Mr B. Machin, Assistant Secretary, Adult Education Branch Mr B. Murray, Assistant Secretary, Ethnic Affairs Branch Mr A. Burt, Director, Finance and General Services Department of Finance:

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The Chairman called on Divisions 2 70-340 and 860-863 - Department of Immi­ gration and Ethnic Affairs.

The following Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure were considered: Divisions 270-340- Immigration and Ethnic Affairs $5 750 000 (Document A). Divisions 860-863- Immigration and Ethnic Affairs $1 235 000 (Document B). Consideration of the Additional Estimates for the Department completed, subject to

an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the follow­ ing officers:

Department of Aboriginal Affairs: Mr L. A. J. Malone, First Assistant Secretary, Policy Mr N. Jansz, Assistant Secretary, Programs Mr W. O 'Neil, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services

Ms A. Somers, Assistant Secretary, Policy Mr J. Angel, Assistant Secretary, Operations Management Mr R. Toohey, Director, Finance Mr B. K. Thomas, Director, Central and Western Australian Section,

Programs

Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch

51

The Chairman called on Divisions 120 and 813 - Department of Aboriginal Affairs. Consideration commenced of the following Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure: · Division 120 -Aboriginal Affairs $1 945 000 (Document A).

Division 813- Aboriginal Affairs $204 500 (Document B). Division 120 being considered by the Committee-4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 5.00 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tor Walters (in the Chair), Senator Messner, Ryan and Sheil. Senators Cavanagh, Georges, McLaren and Mulvihill were also in attendance.

52

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.4

MONDAY, 8 MAY 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.00 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Walters) took the Chair.

2. CONSIDERATION RESUMED OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ABORIG­ INAL AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and

Minister representing the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the follow­ ing officers: Department of Aboriginal Affairs: Mr L.A. J. Malone, First Assistant Secretary, Policy

Mr N. Jansz, Assistant Secretary, Programs Ms A. Somers, Assistant Secretary, Policy Mr R. J. Angel, Assistant Secretary, Operations Management Mr R. Toohey, Director, Finance

Mr W. L. 0 'Neil, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The following Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure were considered:

Division 120- Aboriginal Affairs $1 945 000 (Document A). Division 813- Aboriginal Affairs $204 500 (Document B). Consideration of the Additional Estimates for the Department completed, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Home Affairs, accompanied by the following

officers: Department of Home Affairs: Mr T. F. Paterson, First Assistant Secretary Mr K. P. Cooper, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Island Territories Division

Mr A. C. Campbell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Island Territories Branch, Island Territories Division Mr G. T. Byrnes, Acting Executive Officer, Cocos (Keeling) Islands Section, Island Territories Division

Ms K. J. Taperell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Office of Women's Affairs Mr P. M. Ryan, Executive Officer, Collections & Historical Section, Cultural Affairs Branch Mr P. L. Edgar, Senior Adviser, Arts Section, Cultural Affairs Branch

Mr R. S. Beckett, Senior Project Officer, Film and Library Section, Cultural Affairs Branch

53

Mr N.J. Flanagan, Director, Australian War Memorial Professor R . G. Neale, Director-General, Australian Archives Mr A. Ellis, Assistant Director-General, National Library of Australia Mr G. E. Clark, Director, Management Services, National Library of Australia Department of Administrative Services:

Mr P. D . Priestly, Director, Budget & Estimates Section, Finance and Office Services Branch Mr T. F . Fowler, Finance Officer, Budget & Estimates Section, Finance and Office Services Branch Department of Finance:

Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The Chairman called on Divisions 130-336 and 817- Department of Home Affairs. The following Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure were considered:

Divisions 130 - 336- Home Affairs $1 285 000 (Document A). Division 817- Home Affairs $5 300 (Document B). Consideration of the Additional Estimates for the Department completed. The Minister and departmental officers and members of the Press and public withdrew.

4. DELIBERATIVE MEETING: The Committee met in deliberative session and considered the contents of its Report to the Senate. Resolved (on the motion of Senator Messner)-That the Chairman prepare a draft re­ port of the Committee in accordance with the Committee's direction, and that the draft report be circulated to members of the Committee for their consideration and approval prior to presentation to the Senate.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.00 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tor Walters (in the Chair), and Senators Messner, Ryan and Sheil. Senator McLaren was also in attendance.

54

SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee D has the honour to present its report to the Senate.

1. Pursuant to the order of the Senate the Committee has considered the esti-mates of proposed additi.onal expenditure of the following Departments:

Department of Science Department of Primary Industry Department of the Northern Territory Department of Construction

Department of the Capital Territory.

The Committee has received explanations of the proposed additional expenditure from the Minister for Science and officers of the departments concerned.

2. The minutes of proceedings of the Committee are included in this Report and the Hansard report of the evidence taken is presented herewith. Written answers fur­ nished by departments will be presented separately and printed in the Hansard record.

3. The attention of the Senate is drawn to the following:

(i) Department of Science-Antarctic Division-hire of ships and aircraft (Div­ ision 5431 2104) $38 000

In its report in October 1977 Estimates Committee E observed the failure to investigate alternatives to the hire of ships for Antarctic expenditions. This Committee was told (Hansard, 4 May 1978, p . 246) that a critical situation has arisen in relation to one of the vessels hitherto available, and there are no

other suitable vessels in the world at present. It is possible that the Common­ wealth will pay a very heavy price for the inordinate delay in the consider­ ation of alternatives to the hiring of ships.

(ii) Department of Science-Bureau of Meteorology-Administrative Expenses (Division 5441 2)

The departmental explanatory notes together with the written answer in Appendix 2 reveal that the Bureau of Meteorology expects to spend $469 000 on reinstating observations from its co-operative observer network. The cur­ tailment of the level of observations as an economy measure would seem to

have been ill-considered (Hansard, 4 May 1978, p. 247).

(iii) Department of Primary Industry-National Carcase Classification Scheme (Division 490131 14) $250 000

The Committee was told (Hansard, 5 May 1978, p. 341) of severe obstacles in the implementation of this scheme, for which the Commonwealth has agreed to provide up to $6 million, and that the meat trade is not convinced that there is any benefit in it.

(iv) Department of Primary Industry- Beef Industry Incentive Payments Scheme (Division 490)

The departmental explanatory notes reveal that a total of $22 7 000 is being spent on the administration of this scheme. Figures supplied to the Com­ mittee (Appendix 1) indicated that over $70 million has been paid out under

57

the scheme, and the Committee was told (Hansard, 5 May 1978, p. 343) that payments are expected to total $125 million.

( v) Department of theN orthern Territory-Beef Cattle Freight Subsidy (Division 455131 17) $360 000 This scheme has now terminated, but there is no indication that the problems which it was meant to help overcome, caused by the depresse_ d state of the in­ dustry, have ended.

(vi) Department of Construction-Consultants' Fees (Division 220121 15) The Department is requesting an additional $2.2 million for consultants' fees, $5.5 million having already been appropriated. The departmental ex­ planatory notes and the evidence before the Committee, (Hansard, 4 May

1978, p. 239) indicates that the need for a large additional appropriation was foreseen at the time of the original appropriation.

(vii) Use of Additional Appropriations The _ Committee is concerned that additional appropriations are being used to restrict, if only temporarily at the time of the original estimates, moneys avail­ able for foreseen requirements, instead of being used for unforeseen require­ ments arising after the proposals for the original appropriations. This was the situation in relation to item (vi) above. This appears to be a misuse of ad­ ditional estimates.

4. The Committee records its appreciation of the assistance of the Minister for Science and officers of the departments concerned.

10 May 1978

58

C. R. MAUNSEL Chairman

Appendices

Beef Industry Incentive Payments Scheme Summary of Claims Received and Paid by States as at 2.5.78

New South W a les Queensland Victoria Western Australia South Au stralia

Tasmani a Australian Capital Territory Northern Territory

Totals

Note: These fi gures are based on the postal address of payee.

No. of Claims Received

18 536 15 531 10 330 2 877

2 283 941 124 78

50 700

No . of Claims Paid

16 964 14 804 9 523 2 543

2 055 816 112 66

46 883

APPENDIX l

Amount Paid

$

25 358 390 23 752 710. 12 959 880 3 873 940

3 050 180 I 184 940 169 600 124 530

70 474 170

BEEF INDUSTRY INCENTIVE PAYMENTS SCHEME

l. Turnaround for Processing Claims Processing in Claims Unit 21

Post (both ways) 7

Cheque Production 3

31 calendar days

2. Rejection Rate

Returned to claimants for Clarification or 40 per cent of all claims Additional Information received

Outright Ineligibility 2 per cent of all claims received

99 per cent of the ineligible claims are rejected on the basis that the producer did not own 50 head ofbeefcattle at 30 June 1977 .

61

APPENDIX 2

DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE

The Secretary, Senate Estimates Committee 'D ', Parliament House, Canberra, A.C.T. 2600

Central Office

Scarborough House, Phillip, P.O. Box 449, Woden, A.C.T. 2606 9 May 1978

Additional Estimates

Reference is made to your phone call of 8 May 1978 requesting further information on costs associated with the Bureau of Meteorology co-operative observer network. On page I 5 of the explanations of Additional Estimates of this Department, an amount of $30 I 000 is referred to under additional funds within Item 544/2/03. In answer to your question, of this amount, $181 000 relates directly to the co-operative observer network of the Bureau.

62

for (JOHN L. FARRANDS) Secretary

Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.1

WEDNESDAY, 12 APRIL 1978

l. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met in private session at 9 a.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 6. The Secretary drew attention to the record, in the­ Journals of the Senate of 16 March 1978, of the appointment of members and the ref­ erence of certain estimates of additional expenditure to the Committee.

2. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: On the motion of Senator Kilgariff, Senator Maunsell was elected Chairman and took the Chair.

3. ESTIMATES OF ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE: The Committee discussed the estimates of additional expenditure referred to the Committee by the Senate. The Chairman stated that the Bills and the papers containing the estimates of additional expenditure would not be presented to the Parliament until tomorrow, and the de­

partmental explanatory notes on the additional estimates would not be available to Senators until then. The Chairman stated that an officer of the Senate Committee Secretariat had been seconded to the Committee to undertake research required by the Committee, and

that if, after examining the departmental explanatory notes, members of the Com­ mittee or other Senators wished to give advance notice of questions or to have re­ search undertaken, they should contact the Secretary.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.30 a.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members ofthe Committee were present: Sena­ tors Kilgariff, Maunsell, Robertson and Walsh.

65

C. R. MA UNSELL

. Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.2

THURSDAY, 4 MAY 1978

I. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met in public session at 8.00 p.m. in Senate Committee Room No.5. The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair.

2. CHAIRMAN'S STATEMENT: The Chairman made a statement relating to the appearance of witnesses and the order of consideration of the estimates of additional expenditure.

3. DEPARTMENT OF CONSTRUCTION:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. 1. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers:

Department of Construction: Mr K . J. Rodda, Deputy Secretary Mr W. D. Hamilton, Assistant Secretary (Finance) Mr J. H. Gunn, Acting Assistant Secretary (Works)

Department of Finance: Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer

The following particulars of proposed additional expenditure were called upon and considered: ·

Document A Division 220 Administrative $5 430 000 Division 224 Repairs.and Maintenance $3 500 000 Division 246 Repairs and Maintenance- Department of Defence $1 200 000

Document B

Division 831 Capital Works and Services $2 355 000

Consideration of these particulars of proposed additional expenditure was concluded.

4. DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE:

Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers:

Department of Science: Mr P. B. Free, Senior Assistant Secretary, General Services Division Mr R. A Leslie, Senior Assistant Secretary, Space Projects Branch MrS. G. Thomas, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr D . J. Keane, Principal Project Officer, Policy Division Mr G. H. Nichol, Executive Officer, Antarctic Division Mr K. J. Walshe, Executive Officer (Finance & Supply), Bureau of

Meteorology

Department of Finance: Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer

66

The following particulars of proposed additional expenditure were called upon and considered:

Document A Division 540 Administrative $93 700 Division 542 Analytical Services $107 000 Division 543 Antarctic Division $431 000 Division 544 Bureau of Meteorology $1 816 000

Division 545 Ionospheric Prediction Service $11 600 Division 546 Metric Conversion Board $4 000 Division 547 National Standards Commission $8 000 Division 554 CSIRO $1 403 000

Document B Division 927 Capital Works and Services $50 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed additional expenditure was concluded.

5. DEPARTMENT OF THE CAPITAL TERRITORY: Appearing: Senator the Hon. J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of the Capital Territory:

Mr D . M. Lalor, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Supply Mr J. A Turner, Assistant Secretary, ADP Projects Mr C. S. Hamilton, Director, Programs and Budgets Mr J. H . Marshall, First Assistant Secretary, Transport and Housing

Mr E. P . O'Brien, Acting Commissioner for Housing Mr M. W. Edgerley, Director, Forests Mr J. K. Mundy, Fire Commissioner Mr J. C. Johnson, Deputy Commissioner, ACT Police Department of Finance:

Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer The following particulars of proposed additional expenditure were called upon and considered:

Document A Division 210 Administrative $1 193 300 Division 213 ACT Police $155 700

Document B Division 829 Capital Works and Services $3 000 000 Division 830 Other Services $8 500 Consideration of these particulars of proposed additional expenditure was concluded.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10 .10 p.m.

7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Kilgariff, Maunsell , Robertson, Thomas and Walsh.

67

C. R. MAUNSELL

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.3 FRIDAY, 5 MAY 1978.

1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met in public session at 12 .05 p.m .. i.n Senate Committee. Rooq1 No. 1. The Chairnum (Senator Mau:osell) took the Chair.

2. DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY:

App[!aring.· Senator the Hon. J. J. Weli'.ste_r, .Minister for Science, accompanied by the following-departmental officers:-D_ep«rtrnent qf P.!JiYIJ.ary lltu;iJJ_ s._tr;;:.: Mr G. Mackey,, first Se_((Jetary, No. 1 (M.eat a.nd Meat

·· '

E .. A. Purnell-Webb, First Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries)

Mx T. 13,. _ <:=1:1rtin,, Ipd J.As.tzy :t'Jo .. 5

Mr G. E. As.sist ..

Mr W. Q. 1\\ I;I,a.nv:ne.x, c;tn\1. Foqd Se.,rvices.

Di'{ision ·· ..

Dr P. M. Symmons, Director, Plague Locust Commission Mr J. A. Hart, Assistant Birec.tor, .B·ureau. of Animal Health M.r.A .. C. Kempe, Principal; Exec:utive. 0fti:cer:- ofAnimal Mr G. L Miller, Director, Bure.a.u_ 9f'A.gricul:tural Economics Mr N .. J. Lamb, Principal Executive. Officer, Bureau of Agricultur-al Mr D.P. Cleary, Assistant Secretary, Manager:nen.t Mr L. C. Elliott, Director of Finance Mr J. Digby, Assistant Dis,e.a.,s,e Control

Department qf Finance: Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer The: following C?f proposed additional expeiJ4iture were called upon and c<;msi<;l.e_r:ed.:

Document A Division 490 Administrative $1 22 7 000 Division 494 Bureau of Animal Health $1 477 000 Division 495 Export Inspection $);7 QQO Division 497 Bureau of $125 000

Consideration of these_ P<;t[;ticula\S._()f:prqposed additional expenditure was concluded.

3. DEPARTMENT OF THE NORTHERN TERRITORY: (- - '. ·, .¥ • ... ! ' Appear,ing: the Hon. J. Mjnister for Sci_ ence.

The following pa.nicula\s o ( ·proposed additional expenditure were called upon and considered:

Document A Divi'sion 455 Administrative $1 969 200 Division 457 N.T. Assembly $1937 200

6ft .

Document B Division 899 N.T. Legislative Asst:mbly $1 000,000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed additional expenditure was concluded.

4. REPORT TO THE SENATE: The Committee then met in private session and upon a report to. t,he .. The Chairman stated that a draft report con­

taining the m_ (;ttters. agreed l;Lpon, \\'o,uld be circulated to all members for their con­ sideration.

5. adjourned at 3.45 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present_ : Sena­

tors Kilgariff, RobertSC?J?-, Thomas and Walsh. Other Senators: Senator Martin.

69

C. R. MAUN,SELL

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.4

WEDNESDAY, 10 MAY 1978

1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met in private session at 9.00

a.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 5. The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair.

2. REPORT OF COMMITTEE: The Chairman drew attention to a draft report which had been circulated to all members of the Committee. Amendments were made to the draft report. It was agreed that the draft report as amended be presented to the Senate.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.25 a.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Sena­ tors Maunsell, Robertson and Thomas.

70

C. R. MA UNSELL

Chairman

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee E has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 2 May 1978 the Senate referred to the Committee the Proposed Additional Estimates for the year 1977-78 relating to the following Departments: Attorney-General's Department Department oflndustry and Commerce

Department of Employment and Industrial Relations Department of Productivity Department of Business and Consumer Affairs Department of Veterans' Affairs

2. The Committee has considered these Additional Estimates and has received ex­ planations of them from the Minister and Officers representing the Departments con­ cerned. A copy of the Minutes of proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection

with Appropriation Bill (No.3) 1977-78 and Appropriation Bill (No.4) 1977-78.

3. The Committee appreciated the opportunity offered to members by the Minister of directly questioning the senior officers of his Department and Departments he represented, and obtaining a free exchange of views and information concerning the proposed Expenditure.

4. During the examination there were some matters relating to the Proposed Expen­ diture which were of concern to the committee. These were as follows: Provision is made in the Additional Estimates for retirement payments to Judges of the Supreme Court of Papua New Guinea of an amount of$95 400. This amount is included in Appropriation Bill (No. 3) which under section 53 of the Constitution is

limited to expenditure for the Ordinary annual service of the Government. Under the terms of the 1965 compact relating to the division of expenditure between the ame-n­ dable and non-amendable Bills (see House of Representatives Hansard of 13 May 1965, pp. 1484-5) it was agreed that provision of expenditure for new policies not

previously authorised by special legislation should be in the Bill which is subject to amendment by the Senate, that is Appropriation Bill (No.4). During the Estimates Committee's inquiry into the expenditure of the Attorney­ General's Department in April 1977, the question was raised as to the legislative basis

for payments in lieu oflong-service leave to members of the judiciary. At the time, the then Attorney-General agreed in principle that there should be a proper legislative basis for these payments and assured the Committee that he would give early con­ sideration to recommending amendments to the relevant legislation. The Committee

notes with concern that although there is provision in the additional estimates for pay­ ments of this nature to judges, the proper parliamentary authority has still not been obtained. The Minister explained that although the necessary legislation is being drafted, it has not been given high priority in the legislative program. The Committee expresses its dissatisfaction at this continuing irregularity and in the event of any

future provision for payments of this nature in the absence of Statutory Authority will recommend that such provision be opposed. . From the Explanatory Notes provided by the Attorney General's Department it was not possible to obtain a full reconciliation of the additional moneys being asked

for and resultant savings that would occur when functions have been transferred from

73

one vote to another. Obtaining a reconciliation from the explanatory notes provided by Departments has been a long-standing problem. The Committee commends to the Senate the consideration of this matter in the course of its examination of a standard form of explanatory notes by the Estimates Committee Chairmen and the Depart­ ment of Finance. In this regard the Committee wishes to place on record its appreci­ ation of a reconciliation statement made available to members by Mr J. P. Harkins, Deputy-Chairman of the Commonwealth Legal Aid Commission, which provided a

breakdown of the expenditure and savings which had resulted from the transfer of responsibilities from the Australian Legal Aid Office to the Commission. Evidence given by officers of the Department of Productivity drew attention to a position where the imposition of stringent staff ceilings will, unless varied, prejudice the Small Arms Factory, Lithgow, N.S.W., from obtaining an upturn in production, and enabling that factory to make a greater profit from its operations, and incidently to provide much needed employment in the Lithgow area.

The Committee expresses the view that Government undertakings fulfilling a commercial role should, so far as possible, be managed on a commercial basis rather than that appropriate to the Public Service. If profitable work is available for a Government owned factory, then staff ceilings should not preclude it from undertak­ ing that work.

During consideration of the Additional Estimates documents prepared by Depart­ ment Officers for the use of the Committee were submitted which gave a clear picture of the need for the additional funds. If these documents could have been included with the original Explanations it may have saved Senators considerable time and research.

5. The Committee wishes to place on record its appreciation of the detailed expla­ nations which were provided to Senators prior to and during the hearings, and the as­ sistance of the Minister and his officers during the Committee's consideration of these additional estimates.

ll May 1978

74

P. E. RAE

Chairman

Minutes of Proceedings

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.1

THURSDAY, 6 APRIL 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 6.00 p.m.

2. APPOINTMENT OF, AND REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Resolutions of the 16th of March 1978 relating to the appointment, in accord­ ance with Standing 36AB, of Estimates Committees, the determination of de­ partments to be considered by each committee and the appointment of members to Estimates Committee E as follows:

Senator the Hon. R. Bishop Senator R.N. Coleman Senator D. S. Jessop Senator G. D. Mcintosh

Senator T. J. Tehan Senator P. E. Rae was reported to the Committee.

3. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: On the Motion of Senator Jessop Senator Rae was elected Chairman. Senator Rae thereupon took the Chair.

4. METHOD OF PROCEEDING: The Committee discussed the method of pro­ ceeding with its inquiry and in particular the use to be made of the Research Officer who had been attached to the Committee for this inquiry.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee attended the meet­ ing: Senator P. E. Rae (in the Chair), and Senators D. S. Jessop T. J. Tehan and the Hon. R. Bishop

77

P. E. RAE Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.2 TUESDAY, 2 MAY 1978

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 3.45 p.m.

2. METHOD OF PROCEEDING: Discussion ensued on the method of proceeding with the Committee's investigation, and papers were presented from Research Officers relating to questions not answered from previous hearings and areas revealed by Departmental Explanations which may require further investigation.

The Chairman drew attention to a letter which had been sent to Senators sug­ gesting that members of the Committee may wish to nominate areas of proposed expenditure which the Committee might concentrate on during the examination of the 1977-78 additional estimates. Discussion ensued and the following areas were selected:

Drug and Customs Surveillance Commonwealth Employment Service Reorganisation Commonwealth Aircraft Factory Co-operative Defence Activities Production Assistance Nomad Aircraft Commonwealth Railways Rolling Stock

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 4.15 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee attended the meet­ ing: Senator P. E. Rae (in the Chair), and Senators D. S. Jessop T. J. Tehan R. N. Coleman and the Hon. R. Bishop

78

P. E. RAE

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.3

THURSDAY, 4 MAY 1978

!. MEETING: The Committee met at 12 noon.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of Additional Expendi­ ture for the Service of the year ending 30 June 1978 , and stated that, pursuant to the Order of the Senate of the 16 March 1978, the Committee would consider the follow­ ing proposed expenditure:

Division

Document* Page No. Department Amount

$

A 12-14 16 5-342 Attorney-General's 5 745 000

A 41 380-382 Industry and Commerce 7 296 000

A 27 - 29 290 - 295 Employment and Industrial Rel ations 39 790 500

B 6 838-839 Employment and Industrial Rel ations 522 000

A 52 522-528 Productivity . . . . . . 3 970 000

B 9 921 Productivity . . 400 000

A 15- 16 195 -202 Business a nd Consumer Affairs 3 485 000

B 4 826 Business a nd Consumer Affairs 273 000

A 61 - 62 690-693 Veterans' Affairs II 270 000

* D ocument A- ' Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the service of the year ending 30 June 1978'. * Document B-' Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978 '.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-A TTORNEY -GENERAL 'S DEPARTMENT: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Attorney-General's Department: Mr F. J. Mahony, Deputy Secretary Mr A R. Neaves, Commonwealth Crown Solicitor Mr L. J. Curtis, First Assistant Secretary, Federal Courts Division

Mr L. G . Glare, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Special Services Division MrS. F . Parsons, Senior Assistant Secretary, International Trade Law Branch Mr C. Creswell , Senior Assistant Secretary, Family Law Branch

Mr H. Logue, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Human Rights Branch Mr J. L. M. Carnsew, Assistant Secretary, Special Services Branch Mr P. E. Baskett, Assistant Secretary, Establishments and Planning Branch Mr J. Mikelsons, Acting Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch

Mr D . R. Croker, Principal Legal Officer, Legislative Drafting Division Mr R. J. Venables, Acting Senior Finance Officer, Finance Section Mr J.P. Harkings, Deputy Chairman, Commonwealth Legal Aid Commission

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Mr P. R. Loof, Australian Co-ordinator, 6th United Nations Congress on Pre­ vention of Crime and Treatment of Offenders Mr K. Griffin, Acting Director, Office of the Commission for Community Relations Department of Finance:

Mr C. 1. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr M.G. Napier, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairma n called upon the following division for consideration: Division 165-342- Attorney-General's Department (Document A) $5 745 000.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Attorney-General 's Department.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPAR TMENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Employment and Industrial Relations: Mr J. E. Cooley, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management and Secretariat Division Mr K. J. Fitzgerald, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Manpower Development

and Operations No. 1 Division Mr J. E. Devitt, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Information Branch Mr L. Wall, Assistant Secretary, Industrial Relations Division Mr G . Senior Assistant Director, Employment, New South Wales Mr B. Hook, General Manager, Commonwealth Hostels Ltd Mr C. 1. Lock, Acting Principal Executive Officer, Finance and Services

Section Mr P. J. Beveridge, First Assistant Secretary, Industrial Relations Division Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

Mr M.G. Napier, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called upon the following divisions for consideration: Divisions 838-839 - Department of Employment and Industrial Relations (Document B) $522 000. The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure

for the Department of Employment and Industrial Relations but reserved its right to recall certain witnesses to examine them in relation to a document submitted to the Committee during the examination entitled 'Employment Benefit-Work Test and Commonwealth Employment Service Guidelines'.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977- 78-DEPAR TMENT OF INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. b. Durack, Attorney General, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Industry and Commerce: Mr K . G. Hocking, Assistant Secretary, Management Services and Secretriat Mr G. J. Collopy, First Assistant Secretary, Shipbuilding Division Mr L. G. Stroud, Assistant Secretary, Tourist Industry Branch Mr R . J. Kinsella, Director, Finance and Management Services

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Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr M.G. Napier, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called upon the following divisions for consideration:

Divisions 380-382 - Department of Industry and Commerce (Document A). $7 296 000. The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De­ partment of Industry and Commerce:

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.00 p.m. until tomorrow at ap­ proximately 12 noon.

6. ATTENDANCE: All the members of the Committee were present. Senators the Honourable R. C. Wright and Senator Lewis also took part in the Committee's proceedings.

81

P. E. RAE Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.4

FRIDAY, 5 MAY 1978

I. MEETING: The Committee met at 12 noon.

2. RECALL OF WITNESSES: The following witnesses from the Department of Employment and Industrial Relations were recalled and together with the Attorney­ General, Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack were examined in relation to the contents of the document entitled 'Employment Benefit-Work Test and Commonwealth Em­ ployment Service Guidelines' which had been submitted to Committee members the previous evening.

Mr K. J. Fitzgerald,. Acting First Assistant Secretary, Manpower Development and Operations No. I Division Mr L. W. Loudon, Assistant Director (Management), Industrial Relations Bureau

Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accountmg and Supply Division

Order-That the document be incorporated in the Hansard record. The Committee concluded its examination of the proposed expenditure for the De­ partment of Employment and Industrial Relations.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977- 78-DEPARTMENT OF PRODUCTIVITY: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Productivity: Mr H. J. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Finance and Management Services Division ·

Mr K. McKnown, Assistant Secretary (Finance), Finance and Management Services Division Mr W. M. Drysdale, Director Programs and Estimates, Finance and Man-agement Services Division Mr K. R. Williams, First Assistant Secretary, Policy and Research Division Mr A G. Johnson, Assistant Secretary, Productivity Development Division Mr A P. Foley, Acting Assistant Controller, Aircraft Guided Weapons and

Electronics Supply Division Mr J. C. Comerford, Principal Executive Officer, Munitions Supply Division Mr C. H. Frieman, Assistant Secretary, Patent, Trade Marks and Designs Offices Department of Finan ce:

Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division

The Chairman called upon the following divisions for consideration: Divisio ns 522-528 - Department ofProductivity (Document A) $3 970 000. Division 921 - Department ofProductivity (Document B) $400 000.

82

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Productivity.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENT OF BUSINESS AND CONSUMER AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P . D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Business and Consumer Affairs: Mr D. Mentz, First Assistant Secretary Mr F. Kelly, Assistant Secretary, Management Mr R . J. 0 'Connell, Acting Assistant Secretary ADP

Mr J. V. McKeown, First Assistant Commissioner, Trade Practices Commission Mr A G. Koukoulas, Assistant Commissioner, Services Branch, Industries Assistance Commission Mr H. Bates, Commissioner, Federal Bureau ofN arcotics Department of Finance:

Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called upon the following divisions for consideration: Divisions 195 - 202 - Department of Business and Consumer Affairs (Document A) $3 485 000.

Divisions 826 - Department of Business and Consumer Affairs (Document B) $273 000. The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Business and Consumer Affairs.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1977-78-DEPARTMENTOFVETERANS' AFFAIRS: Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Veterans' Affairs: Mr G. T. Miller, First Assistant Commissioner, Management Services Division Mr G . A. Woodward, Director (Finance), Management Services Division Mr K. H. Ryan, Assistant Director (Budgets and Accounts), Management Ser­

vices Division Dr M. M. Kehoe, Deputy Chief Director (Medical Services), Medical Division Mr B. E. O'Shannassy, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Treatment Services Division

Mr R. J. Hill, Assistant Commissioner (Benefits), Benefits and Legislation Division Defence Service Homes Corporation­ Mr A. J. Selleck, General Manager

Mr C. E. Stenhouse, Manager (Corporate Planning) Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called upon the following divisions for consideration:

Divisions 690 - 693 - Department of Veterans ' Affairs (Document A) $ 11 2 70 000. The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the D epartment of Veterans' Affairs.

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6. ACKNOWLEDGEMENT: The Chairman of the Committee expressed, on be­ half of the Committee, appreciation of the information provided in both writing and oral form by the Minister and the officers who assisted him during the examination of the proposed additional expenditure for 1977-78.

7. ADJOURNME-NT: The Committee adjourned until a day and hour to be determined.

8. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee attended the meet­ ing: Senator P. E. Rae (in the Chair), and Senators D. S. Jessop, T. J. Tehan, R. N. Coleman, G. D. Mcintosh. Senator Cameron and Senator Grimes also took part in the Committee's proceedings.

84

P. E. RAE

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No.5

WEDNESDAY, lO ·MAY 1978

1 . . MEETING: The Committee met at 6.00 p.m.

2. On the Motion of Senator Bishop minutes of the previous meetings were confirmed.

3. CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT: The Committee proceeded to con­ sider the draft report of the Chairman-Paragraphs 1 to 3 agreed to Paragraph 4 considered and agreed to with amendments

Paragraph 5 agreed to. It was resolved that amendments to the report be circulated to the Committee members and subject to their concurrence the report be presented to the Senate on Thursday, ll May 1978.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.40 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: All members ofthe Committee were present.

85

P. E. RAE

Chairman