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Estimates - Senate Committees - Report together with Hansard record of proceedings - Committee D on Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the Year ending on 30 June 1985


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The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, E and F

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Additional Estimates 1984-85

Presented and ordered to be printed 10, 15 and 28 M ay 1985

Parliamentary Paper No. 510/1985

Parliamentary Paper No. 510/1985

The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, E and F

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Additional Estimates 1984-85

May 1985

The Commonwealth Government Printer Canberra 1986

© Commonwealth of Australia 1986 ISSN 0729-6258 ISBN 0 644 04844 1

Printed by Authority by the Commonwealth Government Printer

1. Resolution of the Senate (v)

2. Membership of Committees (vi)

3. Estimates Committee A Report 3

Minutes of Proceedings 1985 28 March 1985 7

15 April 1985 9

4. Estimates Committee B Report 17

Minutes of Proceedings 1985 15 April 1985 (2 meetings) 23

5. Estimates Committee C Report 35

Minutes of Proceedings 1985 28 March 1985 43

15 April 1985 45

7 May 1985 55

6. Estimates Committee D Report 59

Minutes of Proceedings 1985 18 April 1985 (2 meetings) 73

23 April 1985 80

7 May 1985 82

9 May 1985 83

14 May 1985 84

15 May 1985 85

Second Report 89

Minutes of Proceedings 23 May 1985 93

28 May 1985 94

7. Estimates Committee E Report 97

Minutes of Proceedings 1985 16 April 1985 111

18 April 1985 (3 meetings) 113

7 May 1985 124

8. Estimates Committee F Report 129

Minutes of Proceedings 18 April 1985 133

CONTENTS PAGE

(iii )

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RESOLUTION OF THE SENATE PASSED ON 27 MARCH 1985

ESTIMATES COMMITTEES - REFERENCE OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85: The Minister for Veterans' Affairs (Senator Gietzelt) , by leave, moved -(1) That the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expendi­

ture for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1985 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Addi­ tional Expenditure in Respect of the year ending on 30 June 1985 be referred forthwith to Estimates Committees for examination and report.

(2) That the Committees consider Proposed Additional Expenditure in the Estimates Committee groupings agreed to by Resolution of the Senate of 22 February 1985*.

(3) That the Committees report to the Senate on or before Friday, 10 May 1985.

*Estimates Committee Groups

Estimates Committee A Parliament Industry, Technology and Commerce Prime Minister and Cabinet Trade Science

Estimates Committee B Community Services Immigration and Ethnic Affairs Social Security Health

Estimates Committee C Finance Employment and Industrial Relations Treasury Primary Industry Communications

(v)

Estimates Committee D Education Housing and Construction Sport, Recreation and

Tourism Arts, Heritage and Environment Aboriginal Affairs

Estimates Committee E Resources and Energy Attorney-General Special Minister of State Foreign Affairs Defence

Estimates Committee F Veterans' Affairs Transport Aviation Territories Local Government and

Administrative Services

I

MEMBERSHIP OF COMMITTEES

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

Senator Robert Ray (Chairman) Senator Cook Senator Cooney Senator Hill Senator Jessop Senator Short

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

Senator Giles (Chairman) Senator Crowley Senator Elstob Senator Messner Senator Sheil Senator Walters

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

Senator Primmer (Chairman) Senator Boswell Senator Brownhill Senator Childs Senator Maguire Senator Parer

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Senator Reynolds (Chairman) Senator Aulich Senator Baume ^ Senator Colston Senator Puplick Senator Watson Senator Zakharov

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

Senator Colston ^ (Chairman) Senator Black Senator Sir John Carrick Senator MacGibbon ^ Senator McKiernan^ Senator Reynolds^ Senator Sibraa Senator Teague

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

Senator Georges (Chairman) Senator Hearn Senator Reid Senator Richardson Senator Townley Senator Vanstone

1. Appointed 16 April 1985 2. Discharged 16 April 1985 3. Appointed 16 April 1985

4. Appointed 16 April 1985 5. Discharged 16 April 1985 6. Discharged 16 April 1985

(vi)

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A REPORT TO THE SENATE

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ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee A has the honour to report to the Senate.

1. On 27 March 1985 the Senate referred to the Committee the Particulars of. Proposed Additional Expenditure for 1984-85, relating to the Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce, the Department of Trade, the Department of Science, and the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet.

2. The Committee has considered the Additional Estimates of the Departments, together with the Departmental Explanatory Notes, and has received evidence in relation to them from the Minister for Industry, Technology and Commerce (Senator the Hon. John Button), the Minister for Education (Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan), and officers of the Departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and the Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the

Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1984-85 and Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1984-85.

3. While the Committee has no specific comments in relation to the Estimates examined it does wish to draw to the attention of the Senate two matters relating to its operations. The first concerns the inadequate notice given of the meeting

schedule for Estimates Committees, which resulted in difficulties for several members who had already committed themselves to attend other Committee meetings.

The second concern is that, once again, the latest Report of the Auditor-General was not available to the Committee but was, in fact, presented to Parliament the day after the Committee's hearings. The Committee is of the view that the Auditor-General's Report should be presented to Parliament at

least a week before Estimates Committees are scheduled to meet. It recommends that the Auditor-General ensure that in future his major reports are presented to Parliament as soon as possible after the relevant Particulars of Proposed Expenditure have been tabled and before Senate Estimates Committees are scheduled to meet.

4. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance given by the Minister for Industry, Technology and Commerce, the Minister for Education and the officers of the various departments and authorities who appeared before the Committee.

Robert Ray v '

Chairman

May 1985

3.

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ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

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THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 1

THURSDAY, 28 MARCH 1985

1. MEETING

The Committee met in private session at 8.50 am.

2. RESOLUTIONS

Resolutions of the appointment of the Committee on 22 Feoruary 1985, and of the appointment of members to the Committee on 26 March 1985, were reported.

3. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN

The Secretary called for nominations for Chairman. Senator Robert Ray was nominated by Senator Cook. There being no further nominations, Senator Robert Ray was declared elected and thereupon took the Chair.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85

The Chairman reported the entry in the Journals of the Senate of 27 March 1985 referring the Particulars oT Proposed Additional Expenditure 1984-85 to the Committee for trie following Departments:

Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce Department of Prime Minister & Cabinet Department of Trade Department of Science

5. PARLIAMENTARY DEPARTMENTS

The Chairman advised the Committee that as there was no Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill for Additional Estimates this financial year, there was thus

no reference relating to the Parliamentary Departments to the Committee.

7.

6. MANNER OF EXAMINING THE ADDITIONAL ESTIMATES

The Committee agreed to proceed with the examination of Departmental estimates in the following order:

Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce Department of Trade Department of Science Department of Prime Minister & Cabinet.

7. ADJOURNMENT

The Committee adjourned at 9.05 am.

8. NEXT MEETING

The next meeting of the Committee will be at 2.15 pm on Monday, 15 April 1985.

9. ATTENDANCE

Senators Cook, Jessop, Robert Ray and Short.

Robert Ray Chairman

8.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 2

MONDAY, 15 APRIL 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.30 p.m. The Chairman

(Senator Robert Ray) took the Chair.

2. PUBLICATION OF WRITTEN ANSWERS: The Committee agreed to

authorise the immediate publication of all written answers to

questions, subject to the Secretary drawing to the attention of

the Committee any answer which for any reason deserved closer

examination by the Committee.

3. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement

relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its

examination of the Additional Estimates of the Departments,

referred for its consideration: Industry, Technology and

Commerce; Trade; Science; Prime Minister and Cabinet.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 -

DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY, TECHNOLOGY AND COMMERCE:

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the following

officers:

Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce

Mr L. Jones, Assistant Secretary, Resources Management

Branch

Mr C. Vassarotti, Assistant Secretary, Barrier Policy

Branch

9.

Mr D. Smedley, First Assistant Secretary, Systems Division

Mr R. Hoppe, First Assistant Secretary, Executive Division

Mr A. Bain, First Assistant Secretary, Technology Division

Mr B . Cody, Assistant Secretary, Inland Services Branch

Dr J. Hagan, Assistant Secretary, Technology Programs

Branch

Industries Assistance Commission

Dr A.G. Cuthbertson, First Assistant Commissioner,

Inquiry Division No. 2

Mr A.J. Cahill, Assistant Commissioner, Management Branch

Mr K.B. Mourant, Director, Management Operations Section

Department of Finance

P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

C.F. Law, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

The Minister made an opening statement.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 400, 404, 540

Division 921

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed

expenditure for the Department of Industry, Technology and

Commerce, subject to undertakings to provide additional

information to the Committee.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 -

DEPARTMENT OF TRADE:

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for

Education, accompanied by the following officers:

10.

Department of Trade

Mr A.J. McGoldrick, First Assistant Secretary, Management

Division

Mr R.P. Maxwell, First Assistant Secretary, Manufactures

Trade Division

Mr P. Connolly, First Assistant Secretary, Services Trade

and Export Facilitation Division

Mr G.L.V. Hooton, Principal Adviser, Minerals and Energy

Exports Division

Mr E.W. Exell, Director, Trade Commissioner Service

Ms M.J. Bennett, Assistant Secretary, Management Division

Mr D . Kenyon, Assistant Secretary, Agriculture and

Multilateral Policy Division

Mr F. Crawford, Assistant Secretary, Market Development

Division I

Mr J.B. Gregory, Assistant Secretary, Market Development

Division II

Mr S.P. Deady, Director, Economic Policy and Research

Division

Mr P. Flanagan, Director, Manufactures Trade Division

Mr D.F. Walsh, Acting Director (Administration and Policy)

Export Development Grants Board

Mr E. Hodge, Director, Office of New Zealand Relations

Department of Finance

P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

C.F. Law, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 640, 642, 644

Division 964

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed

sxpenditure for the Department of Trade, subject to undertakings

to provide additional information to the Committee.

11.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 -

DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE:

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the following

officers:

Department of Science

Mr A.H. Groube, Acting assistant Secretary, Resources

Management Branch

Mr R. Poole, Acting Director, Resource Planning Section

Mr J.A. Wharton, Acting Assistant Director, Resource

Budgeting

Ms P.S. Brooks, Finance Officer

Mr A. Nichols, Director, Technical Policy Liaison Section

Mr R. Moncur, Deputy Director, Antarctic Division

Mr P. Spehr, Assistant Director, Management, Bureau of

Meteorology

Ms B . Dixon, Canberra Liaison Officer (Bureau of

Meteorology)

Mr H.A. Wray, Finance Officer (National Standards

Commission)

Ms K. Adams, Executive Officer (National Standards

Commission)

Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation

Mr I.L. Farrar, Manager (Budget)

Mr J.H. Payne, Chief Finance Officer (Budget)

Mr K.N. Bedford, Chief Finance Officer (Budget)

Mr R.A. Riches, Senior Finance Officer (Budget)

Department of Finance

P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

C.F. Law, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

12.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 540, 543, 544, 548

Division 945

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed

expenditure for the Department of Science.

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 -

DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET:

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the following

officers:

Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet

Mr J.G. Hinton, Acting First Assistant Secretary

Governor-General's Office

Mr D. Smith, Official Secretary

Wing Cdr. B. Espeland, Comptroller

Commonwealth Ombudsman's Office

Mr J.C. Jordan, Deputy Ombudsman

Mr B. Hugg, Executive Officer

Australian Science and Technology Council

Mr M. Lester, Acting Secretary

Mr P.H. Lambie, Administration Officer

Auditor-General's Office

Mr A.A. Taylor, First Assistant Auditor General Div. 'D '

Mr C.M. McPherson, Assistant Auditor General, Resource

Management and Developments Branch

Mr J.R. Riding-Hill, Chief Executive Officer, Conference

Administration Section

13.

Mr F.P. Campbell, Executive Officer, Finance and Accounts

Sub-Section

Public Service Board

Mr G.D. Carlos, Finance Officer

Department of Finance

P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

C.F. Law, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 500, 506, 508, 512, 513, 515, 516

Divisions 937, 940, 941

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed

expenditure for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet,

subject to undertakings to provide additional information to the

Committee.

8. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 5.25 p.m.

9. ATTENDANCE: Senators Robert Ray (Chairman), Cook, Jessop and

Short. Senators Archer, Boswell and Chaney also attended.

CONFIRMED:

Robert Ray Chairman

14.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee B has the honour to present its Report to

the Senate.

1. On 27 March 1985 the Senate referred to the Committee the

Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the

Service of the Year ending on 30 June 1985, and Particulars

of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the

year ending on 30 June 1985, for the following Departments:

Department of Community Services

Department of Social Security

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

Department of Health

2. The Committee has considered the Additional Estimates and

has received explanations of them from the Minister for

Community Services, (Senator the Honourable Don Grimes) and

officers of the departments concerned. A copy of the Minutes

of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by

the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate

in connection with Appropriation Bill (No.3) 1984-85 and

Appropriation Bill (No.4) 1984-85.

Answers to questions which were deferred and are to be

subsequently given in writing will be tabled in the Senate

and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the

Committee's hearings.

17.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

following matters arising from its consideration of the

Additional Estimates:

Auditor-General's Report

Various Estimates Committees have drawn attention to the

importance of the Auditor-General1s Reports upon audits,

examinations and inspections under the Audit Act, as a source of

information for proper examination of departmental estimates.*

The Report of the Auditor-General which contained the

results of audits generally completed as at 31 December 1984 was

tabled in the Senate on 16 April 1985. However, this Committee

concluded its examination of the relevant Departments on 15

April 1985.

The Committee reiterates the need to have the

Auditor-General's reports available for a reasonable time prior

to the examination of departmental estimates so that members of

the Committee and other Senators have adequate time to peruse

the reports and ask any relevant questions arising out of the

reports.

1. Estimates Committee A, April 1980 (PP 86/1980), Estimates

Committee C, October 1976 (PP 304/1976), October (PP

221/1977), Estimates Committee E, October 1981 (PP

263/1981).

18.

Departmental Witnesses

Estimates Committees have also commented regularly on the

level of seniority of departmental witnesses and the degree of

their expertise and familiarity with items under examination.

One long-term benefit of Estimates Committee hearings is the

opportunity that is provided for Senators to identify and meet

the most senior officers of the public service and statutory

authorities working in the areas of their special interest.

At the recent hearings two departments were represented by

the Secretary or Acting Secretary and the Committee considers

that it benefitted directly in its consideration of the

estimates of those departments.

However, the Committee considers that departments have a

responsibility to provide witnesses who are sufficiently expert

and are adequately briefed to provide answers immediately and

competently. In this respect the Committee considers that some

answers provided to questions directed to the proposed

expenditure of the newly created Australian Capital Territory

Health Authority (Department of Health-Divisions 329 and 881)

reflected inadequate briefing.

Delay in Providing Written Replies

Another matter of concern to the Committee is the undue

delay in receiving answers to questions and requests for

additional information put by Senators during the hearings.

At the time of presenting this report there are outstanding

a significant number of written replies.

The Committee gives notice that, in future, it will seek to

delay its report until all written replies are provided by the

relevant departments.

19.

Estimates Committees Timetable

Some difficulty was experienced by the Committee due to the

timing of Estimates Committee hearings.

Appropriation Bills Nos.3 and 4 were not presented until 27

March 1985. On the same day the Particulars of Proposed

Additional Expenditure were referred to the Estimates

Committees.

Explanatory Notes for 3 departments were tabled on 28 March,

the last sitting day before the scheduled meeting of this

Committee. The explanatory notes for one department were not

published until after members of the Committee had left

Canberra.

Only one clear sitting day was available for a preliminary

meeting, without departmental explanatory notes and also without

the Auditor-General1s Report.

The Committee suggests that, when the timetable is

determined for the next examination of the Particulars of

Proposed Additional Expenditure, consideration be given to a

more adequate advance notice of the proposed hearings. The

problems experienced could also be remedied by the earlier

presentation of Appropriation Bills Nos.3 and 4, or by making

the departmental explanatory notes available to the Senate prior

to the presentation of the Bills.

4. The Committee records its appreciation of the assistance

given by the Minister for Community Services (Senator the

Hon. Don Grimes) and officers of the departments concerned.

20.

Patricia J. Giles

Chairperson

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 1

MONDAY, 15 APRIL 1985

1. MEETING:

The Committee met in private session at 1.55 p.m. in Senate

Committee Room 7.

2. ELECTION:

The Secretary called for nominations for Chairman. Senator

Giles was nominated by Senator Elstob. There being no

further nominations, Senator Giles was declared elected.

Senator Giles thereupon took the Chair.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 AND

CERTAIN PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85

Senator Giles reported the entry in the Journals of the

Senate of 27 March 1985 referring to the Committee the

Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for 1984-85

and Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure for 1984-85 for

the following Departments:

Community Services;

Social Security;

Immigrations and Ethnic Affairs, and

Health.

23.

4. PUBLICATION OF WRITTEN REPLIES:

Senator Messner moved - That the Committee authorizes the

publication of departmental written replies to Senators who

are not members of Estimates Committee B, prior to the

replies being tabled in the Senate.

Question-put and passed.

5. ADJOURNMENT:

The Committee adjourned at 2.15 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE:

The following members of the Committee were present:

Senator Giles (Chairperson)

Senator Elstob

Senator Shell ·

Senator Messner

Patricia J. Giles

Chairperson

24.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 2

MONDAY, 15 APRIL 1985

1. MEETING:

The Committee met at 2.31 p.m. in Senate Committee Rooms 1

and 2. Senator Giles, took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 AND

CERTAIN PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85:

Department of Community Services

In Attendance:

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community

Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Community Services

Mr John R. Simpson, Acting First Assistant

Secretary, Planning Group

Mr Tony (A.C.) Kingdon, Acting First Assistant

Secretary, Subsidies Division

Ms Mary Murnane, Director,

Office of Child Care

Ms Mary Scott, Assistant Secretary,

Home & Community Care Branch

Ms Jeannine Bevan, Director, Secretariat

Branch

25.

Mr Ross Rohrlacb, Finance Co-ordinator

Department of Finance

Mr A.G. Chapman, Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr T. s. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Division 560 - Department of Community Services,

(Document A)

Division 846, 949 and 950 - Department of Community

Services, (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars

of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1984-85 and Certain

Proposed Additional Expenditure 1984-85 for the Department

of Community Services, subject to an undertaking by the

Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 AND

CERTAIN PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85:

Department of Social Security

In Attendance:

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community

Services, accompanied by the following officers:

26.

Department of Social Security

Mr C. McAlister, Acting National Manager

Mr J.M. Mahoney, First Assistant Secretary,

Resource Management Division

Mr J. McMahon, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Benefits Delivery Division

Mr M. Douglas, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Legislation and Review Division

Mr R. Elmes, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Human Resource Management Branch

Mr P. Wurfel, Director,

Finance Estimates Section

Mr A. Newton, Acting Director,

Human Resource Budgeting

Department of Finance

Mr A.J. Chapman, Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting

Policy Division

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting

Policy Division

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Division 560 - Department of Social Security, (Document A)

Division 950 - Department of Social Security, (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars

of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1984-85 and Certain

Proposed Additional Expenditure 1984-85 for the Department

of Social Security, subject to an undertaking by the

Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 AND

CERTAIN PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85:

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

In Attendance:

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community

Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

Mr L.B. Woodward, Acting Secretary

Mr I. McNeil, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Management Division

Mr B. Strangio, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Finance and Services Branch

Ms S. Ingram, Assistant Secretary,

Settlement Branch

Mr P. Judd, Assistant Secretary,

Entry Regulation Branch

Mr T. Griffiths, Assistant Secretary,

Refugees and Humanitarian Branch

Mr D. Page, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Ethnic Affairs Branch

Mr J. Reynolds, Assistant Secretary,

ADP Branch

Mr A. Conheady, Chief Administrative Officer,

Australian institute of Multicultural Affairs

Department of Finance

Mr A.J. Chapman, Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

28.

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 360 and 365 - Department of Immigration and Ethnic

Affairs, (Document A)

Division 902 - Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs,

(Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars

of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1984-85 and Certain

Proposed Additional Expenditure 1984-85 for the Department

of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, subject to an undertaking

by the Minister to provide additional information to the

Committee.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 AND

CERTAIN PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85

Department of Health

In Attendance:

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community

Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Health

Mr B.V. McKay, Secretary

Mrs A.L. Kern, Deputy Secretary

Mr W.G. Turk, Assistant Secretary,

Finance Branch

29.

Dr B.P. Kean, Assistant Secretary,

International Health Branch

Mr S.K. Lees, Acting Director,

Finance

Dr N.A. Elvin, Chairman,

A.C.T. Health Authority

Mr G.D. Faichney, Assistant Commissioner,

Planning and Resource Management,

A.C.T. Health Authority

Mr M. Murray, Assistant General Manager,

Finance, Health Insurance Commission

Department of Finance

Mr A.J. Chapman, Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Managment and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Division 325 and 329 - Department of Health (Document A)

Division 881 to 883 - Department of Health (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars

of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1984-85 and Certain

Proposed Additional Expenditure 1984-85 for the Department

of Health, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to

provide additional information to the Committee.

6. ADJOURNMENT:

The Committee adjourned at 11.27 p.m.

30.

7. ATTENDANCE:

The following members of the Committee were present:

Senator Giles (Chairperson)

Senator Crowley

Senator Elstob

Senator Messner

Senator Sheil

Senator Walters

Senators Baume, Harradine, Puplick, Reid and Robertson

also attended.

CONFIRMED

Patricia J. Giles

Chairperson

31.

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ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C REPORT TO THE SENATE

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ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee C has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 27 March, 1985, the Senate referred to the Committee the

Additional Estimates for the year ending 30 June 1985

relating to the following Departments:

Department of Finance

Department of the Treasury

Department of Employment and Industrial Relations

Department of Communications

Department of Primary Industry

2. The Committee has considered these Estimates and has

received explanations of them from the Minister for Finance

and officers of the Departments concerned. A copy of the

Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence

taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the

Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1985

and Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1985. Further written

explanations furnished by Departments will be presented

separately and printed in the Hansard record.

35.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

following matters:

EXPLANATORY NOTES

Much comment has been made by Estimates Committees about the

need for a consistent approach by departments in style and

format of explanatory notes. The explanatory notes of the

Departments examined by the Committee on the whole complied with

these requirements. However the explanatory notes of the

Department of Employment and Industrial Relations included items

in which savings had been achieved amongst expenditure

explanations. The Committee appreciates the department's

initiative in including this information and indeed recommends

that other departments should provide it also. However the

information should be provided in a separate section of the

explanatory notes. The explanatory notes should be in the same

order as the divisions set out in the Appropriation Bills.

Departments should also ensure that information provided in

addition to expenditure explanations is clearly described. This

did not occur with the savings items mentioned above. The only

indication that these items were savings was the negative

indicator next to the dollar amounts for additional estimates

for 1984-85.

The Department of Communications also included a savings

item in its explanatory notes. The explanation for this saving

was included amongst expenditure explanations and in the same

format, it required careful reading of the notes to determine

that in fact no additional funds were required. To avoid

confusion the Committee recommends that savings explanations be

clearly identified as such and placed in a separate section of

the explanatory notes.

36.

DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS

Australian Broadcasting Corporation

The estimates of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation

were previously examined by Estimates Committee A as part of the

Department of Communications. That Committee in its May 1984 and

October 1984 Reports to the Senate criticised the Corporation

for failure to properly inform the Committee. The Committee was

particularly critical of the attitude of the Corporation in not

providing information requested as a result of the May hearings

on a timely basis. Questions taken on notice at the hearing on 4

May 1984 were not received until the day of the next hearing on

30 May and questions taken on notice at that hearing were not

received until 9 July 1984. This was despite the Committee's

recommendation that the Senate re-affirm the following

principle, first adopted by the Senate in 1971 after criticisms

by Estimates Committee B of the then Commission's attitude to

Parliamentary scrutiny:

" That whilst it may be argued that Statutory

Authorities are not accountable through the responsible Minister of State to Parliament for day-to-day operations, they may be called to account by Parliament itself at any time and

that there are no areas of expenditure of public funds where these corporations have a discretion to withhold details or explanations from

Parliament or its Committees unless the

Parliament has expressly provided otherwise."

The Senate re-affirmed this principle on 4 June 1984.

Despite the re-affirmation Estimates Committee A again reported

in October 1984 that information provided at the hearing was

less than satisfactory and that additional information, whilst

provided promptly, was considered less than adequate.

37.

Given the background detailed above Estimates Committee C,

which is now responsible for examination of the estimates of the

Department of Communications, expected that the Corporation

would ensure that officers attending the hearing would be

adequately briefed, particularly on those matters which have

been examined previously by Estimates Committee A as well as

matters canvassed by the media. That this was not the case is

indicated by the number of questions which officers of the ABC

had to take on notice. This was of particular concern

considering the number of officers who attended the hearing.

Given the changes that are currently occurring to the structure

of the organisation and its accounting systems the Committee was

surprised that the Managing Director was not present to answer

questions on these matters. It is the Committee's view that if

the Managing Director had been present the number of questions

which had to be taken on notice could have been reduced

significantly. Examination of replies subsequently received by

the Committee to questions taken on notice appears only to

compound the problems being experienced in gaining information

necessary to enable the Committee to report to the Senate.

Whilst questions have been answered, the information contained

in many instances has not appeared adequate to the Committee.

Accordingly the Committee has written to the Corporation setting

out the matters concerned and seeking more detailed responses.

The Committee is particularly concerned about the problems

the Corporation is having in implementing an accrual accounting

system capable of providing financial information to managers.

The Committee is pleased that the Corporation is implementing

accrual accounting, including a balance sheet and profit and

loss statement, but is concerned that the preparation of these

accounts is being impeded by the absence of an assets register

and up to-date valuations of those assets. The state of the

assets register is such that the officers were unable to

identify for the Committee operating equipment more than five

years old. Without these records commercial accounts cannot be

prepared.

38.

For the Corporation to be truly accountable commercial accounts

are essential. Accordingly the Committee will be following

closely the Corporations implementation of these systems.

4. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance

given by the Minister and the officers.

(C.G. Primmer)

Chairman

39.

■

•

'

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

;

: r/'j:

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 1

THURSDAY 28 MARCH 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 6.47pm in

Senate Committee Room No.4.

2. MEMBERSHIP OF THE COMMITTEE: Journals of the Senate dated 26

March 1985 record that Senators Boswell, Brownhill, Childs,

Maguire, Parer and Primmer were appointed members of

Estimates Committee C.

3. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: The Committee Secretary then called

for nominations for Chairman. Senator Primmer was nominated

by Senator Maguire. Senator Primmer thereupon took the

Chair.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85: The

Chairman reported the entry in the Journals of the Senate

dated 27 March 1985 referring Particulars of Proposed

Additional Expenditure for the following Departments:

Finance

Employment and Industrial Relations

Treasury

Primary Industry

Communications

5. MANNER OF EXAMINING THE ESTIMATES: The order of

consideration of Departments was to be decided by the

Chairman and Committee members advised accordingly.

43.

6. BRIEFING MATERIAL: A background brief on Departments to be

examined was to be circulated.

7. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.57pm.

8. ATTENDANCE: Senators Brownhill, Childs, Maguire, Parer and

Primmer. Apologies were received from Senator Boswell.

CONFIRMED

(C.G. Primmer)

Chairman

44.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 2

MONDAY 15 APRIL 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.25 p.m. The Chairman

(Senator Primmer) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman reported the

Resolution of the Senate of 27 March 1985 and outlined the

procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of

the Estimates.

3. RESOLUTION: The Committee resolved:

That, the Chairman be authorised to release

written answers to questions provided

subsequent to meetings of the Committee.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE IN RESPECT

OF THE YEAR ENDING 30 JUNE 1985 -DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

5. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh,

Minister for Finance, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Finance:

Mr J.V. Galloway

Mr G.L. Smith

45.

Assistant Secretary

Chief Finance Officer

Rural and Commerce Branch

Mr C.L. Scholes Chief Finance Officer

Manufacturing, Mining and Energy

Branch

The Chairman called on the following divisions for

consideration:

The Committee concluded its considerations of the

particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the year

ending 30 June 1985.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE IN RESPECT

OF THE YEAR ENDING 30 JUNE 1985 -DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

7. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh,

Minister for Finance, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of the Treasury:

Division

Division

304

866

(Document A)

(Document B)

Mr J.D. Moore Deputy Secretary

Assistant Secretary

Co-ordination and Management Branch

Director

Finance and Services

Mr A. Rowe

Mr D. Holmesby

Prices Surveillance Authority:

Mr C. Kennedy Executive Officer

46.

Australian Bureau of Statistics:

Mr R.W. Edwards

Mr J. Cornish

Mr D. Leaver

Ms M.C. Jones

Mr L.F. Hughes

First Assistant Statistician

Co-ordination and Management

Division

Assistant Statistician

Population Census and Demography

Branch

Assistant Statistician

Statistical Services Branch

Acting Director

Finance and General Services

Section

Acting Director

Management Control Section.

Department of Finance:

Mr D. Evans

Mr H. Duthie

Senior Finance Officer

Financial Management and Accounting

Division

Chief Finance Officer

Financial Management and Accounting

Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 670, 671,

672, 676 (Document A)

Division 984 (Document B)

Division 977 (Statement of Savings)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed

Additional Expenditure for the year ending 30 June 1985 subject

to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional

information to the Committee.

47.

8 PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE IN RESPECT

OF THE YEAR ENDING 30 JUNE 1985 -DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS

9. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh,

Minister for Finance, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Employment and Industrial Relations:

Mr G. Rees

Mr A. Fogarty

Mr N. Fisher

Mr K. Power

Mr A. Kaspura

Mr A. Lovell

Mr T. Hilsberg

Mr G. Lampe

Mr B. Coulter

Mr D. Rose

Mr G. Hallinan

Mr D. Gunzburg

Mr J. McMahon

Commissioner

Acting Deputy Secretary

Deputy Secretary

Acting Deputy Secretary

First Assistant Secretary

Management Policy and Development

Division

Acting First Assistant Secretary

Job Creation and Youth Programs

Division .

Acting Chief General Manager, CES

General Manager

Planning and ADP Division

General Manager

Special Groups Division

Acting Assistant Secretary

Resources Management Branch

Acting Manager

Aboriginal Employment and Training

Branch

Acting Secretary

Industry Policy Branch

Assistant Secretary Working

Environment Branch

Industrial Registrar

Conciliation and Arbritration

Commission

48

E. Heagney National Director

Australian Trade Union Training

Authority

Mr F. Kovachevich Acting Assistant Secretary

National Occupational Health and

Safety Commission

Department of Finance:

Mr D. Evans Senior Finance Officer

Financial Management and Accounting

Policy Division

Mr H. Duthie Chief Finance Officer

Financial Management and Accounting

Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 287, 288, 290 (Document A)

Divisions 287, 289, 861 (Statement of Savings)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the year

ending 30 June 1985 subject to an undertaking by the Minister to

provide additional information to the Committee.

10. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE IN RESPECT

OF THE YEAR ENDING 30 JUNE 1985 -DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS 1 1

11. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION: The Committee agreed to

incorporate in Hansard correspondence from the Australian

Broadcasting Corporation in response to questions raised before

Estimates Committee A on 4 September 1984.

49.

12. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Miister

for Finance, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Communications:

Mr E.E. Payne

Mr J.D. Maclean

Deputy Secretary

Assistant Secretary

Finance and Regulatory Branch,

Space, Telecommunications

and Postal Policy Division

Mr B.W. Johnman Assistant Secretary

Management Services Branch

Corporate Policy and Projects

Division

Mr R.N. Smith First Assistant Secretary

Broadcasting Policy and Planning

Division

Mr G.N. McAdoo Acting Assistant Secretary

Communications Development Division

Mr M.R. Ramsay First Assistant Secretary

Radio Frequency Management Division

Mr V.H. Jones First Assistant Secretary

Broadcasting Services Division

Ms R. Martindale Director

Finance Management Services

Branch Corporate Policy and

Projects Division

Australian Broadcasting Corporation:

Mr S.L. Revill Assistant Managing Director

Mr K. Jackson Controller Corporate Relations

Mr A.N. Le Gal ant Director of Finance and EDP

Mr R. Thomas Director of Television

Mr M.W. Long Director of Radio

50.

Ms J.M. Ercole Director of Human Resources Mr G.E. Moriarty Director of Engineering and Property

Mr M. Robertson Director

Sales and Marketing

Australian Broadcasting Tribunal:

Mr A.S. Wilson Acting Secretary Mr M. Payton Finance Officer

Special Broadcasting Service:

Mr L. Shaw Acting Executive Director

Mr R. Stokes Head of Corporate Affairs

Mr S. Kerkyasharian Head of Radio

Mr K. Nazaroff Head of Administration

Mr D. Forsyth Director

Finance

Department of Finance:

Mr D. Evans Senior Finance Officer

Mr H. Duthie

Financial Management and Accounting

Policy Division

Chief Finance Officer

Financial Management and Accounting

Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions

Division

220, 222, 224

842

(Document A)

(Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

particulars of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the year

ending 30 June 1985 and expenditure under the Advance to the

Minister for Finance 1984-85, subject to an undertaking by the

Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

13. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE IN

RESPECT OF THE YEAR ENDING 30 JUNE 1985 -

DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY

14. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh,

Minister for Finance, accompanied by the following officers;

Department of Primary Industry:

Mr J.L. Gibson

Mr J.R. Smith

Mr D.D. R. Pearson

Mr M. Todd

Mr R.R. Alder son

Mr R. Messer

Dr R. Bain

Mr P. Core

Mr R.W. Gee

Deputy Secretary

Acting First Assistant Secretary

Management Division

Assistant Secretary

Resources Management Branch

Acting Assistant Secretary

Meat Branch

Assistant Secretary

Wine, Dried Fruits and Vegetables

Branch

Acting Assistant Secretary

Sugar and Industrial Crops Branch

Director

Australian Fisheries Service

First Assistant Secretary

Development and Co-ordination

Division

Acting Director

Animal and Plant Health and

Quarantine Service

52.

Mr L. Lane

Mr G. Murray

Dr A.B. Stoeckel

Mr E.R. Thorn

Deputy Director

Animal and Plant Health and

Quarantine Service

Acting Director

Export Inspection Service

Director

Bureau of Agricultural Economics

First Assistant Secretary

Dairy Division

Department of Finance;

Ms P.A. Lyndon Chief Finance Officer

Financial Management and Accounting

Policy Divison

The Minister for Finance made a brief opening statement.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 490, 497 (Document A)

Division 930, 932 (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed

Additional Expenditure for the year ending 30 June 1985.

15. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.23 pm.

53.

16. ATTENDANCE: Senators Primmer (Chairman), Boswell,

Brownhill, Childs, Maguire, Parer. Senators Baume, Harradine,

Macklin, Puplick and Peter Rae also attended.

CONFIRMED:

(C.G. PRIMMER)

Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 3

TUESDAY, 7 MAY 1985.

1. MEETING: The Committee met in deliberative session at 8.50am

in Senate Committee Room No.5. The Chairman (Senator

Primmer) took the Chair.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of meetings held on 28

March 1985 and 15 April 1985 were confirmed.

3. RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS TAKEN ON NOTICE: The Committee

considered responses received. It was resolved that the

Committee write to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation

to seek more detailed responses than those provided on 6 May

1985 .

4. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the

Chairman's draft report to the Senate. The Committee agreed

that the report be amended and recirculated for approval.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.10am.

55.

6. ATTENDANCE: Senators Primmer (Chairman) Boswell, Brownhill

Childs, Maguire, Parer. Senator Peter Rae also attended.

CONFIRMED

56.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D REPORT TO THE SENATE

V ■ ' r ί

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee D has the honour to present its Report

to the Senate.

1. On 27 March 1985, the Senate referred to the Committee the

Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service

of the year ending on 30 June 1985 and the Particulars of

Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year

ending on 30 June 1985, relating to the following departments:

Education

Housing and Construction

Sport, Recreation and Tourism

Arts, Heritage and Environment

Aboriginal Affairs

2. The Committee has considered these Estimates and has

received explanations of them from the Minister for Education

(Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan), the Minister for Resources and

Energy (Senator the Hon. Gareth Evans, Q.C.) and officers of the

departments concerned. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and

Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are

tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with

Appropriation Bill (No.3) 1984-85 and Appropriation Bill (No.4)

1984-85.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

following matters arising from its consideration of the

Estimates:

59.

DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION

Commonwealth Schools Commission

During the examination of the additional estimates for the

Commonwealth Schools Commission, the Committee was informed that

a considered decision had been taken by senior Commission

officers which had the effect of limiting the circulation of

certain material on a party political basis. The Committee is

concerned that statutory bodies could be seen to be compromising

their independence by taking party political judgements into

account in decision making.

The Committee noted that this matter had revealed that

considerable difficulties can arise for statutory bodies if

their independent exercise of judgement is compromised by such

decision making, and it is particularly concerned that such

actions could lead to further encroachments by statutory bodies

into areas where such decisions should more appropriately rest

with Ministers or the Parliament.

DEPARTMENT OF SPORT. RECREATION AND TOURISM

Membership Subscriptions to International Organizations

The Department sought an additional estimate to provide for

payment to the World Tourism Organization of the membership fee,

which had increased due to fluctuating exchange rates. There was

a loss to revenue because the subscription had not been paid on

the date on which it was due.

60.

The Committee is of the opinion that as a general practice

membership subscriptions to organizations should be paid by the

due date. Such a practice of punctuality in payment would

prevent criticism regarding any loss or gain to revenue when

exchange rates fluctuate.

Adequacy of Information in Public Material

The Committee also wishes to express concern at an example

of what it regards as obfuscation by the Department. During

questioning relating to the results of an Interdepartmental

Committee on Inward Duty-Free Shopping, referred to in the

Department's 1983-84 Annual Report, the Committee was initially

informed that a report had been furnished to the Government and

subsequently that "information" (undefined) had been provided to

the Government.

In a written reply the Committee was informed that "a

specific report per se was not prepared by the IDC on this

matter. The report referred to in the Department's Annual Report

1983-84 relates to the inputs by Departments into preparation of

the Cabinet submission".

While the Committee is appreciative of the semantic

difference between reporting to government and providing a

report to government, it is of the opinion that departments have

an obligation to be specific and should provide information in

publicly available documents without embellishment.

61.

DEPARTMENT OF ARTS. HERITAGE AND ENVIRONMENT

"The Return of Captain Invincible"

The Department sought a significant additional estimate

relating to costs arising from legal action in respect of the

Taxation Provisions for Films Scheme application for an Order of

Review under the Administrative Decisions (Judicial Review) Act.

Early in the financial year the Commonwealth launched an appeal

against a judgement by Mr Justice McGregor in the Federal Court

of Australia with respect to the film "The Return of Captain

Invincible". The appeal was lost, and as a result the

Commonwealth is required to meet the costs of the other party in

the case, in addition to its own legal costs.

In a written reply to the Committee the Department stated

that "it was never expected that the decision of Mr Justice

McGregor, insofar as it rested on non-observance of natural

justice, would be overturned. It was however hoped, with

reasonable assurance from the legal advisers involved, that some

aspects of the judgement which left room for doubt on how to

apply the relevant legislation might be clarified ...."

The Committee considers that the issues involved with "The

Return of Captain Invincible" warrant further examination and

therefore recommends that the following matter be referred to

the Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations: The

circumstances surrounding advice given, decisions taken and

procedures involved with the various court actions relating to

the film "The Return of Captain Invincible".

62.

The Committee was concerned to note the inability of Council

witnesses to provide an explanation of the publication practices

of the Australia Council at the hearings, particularly in

respect of its magazine Art Force. The Committee had been

informed at its hearings in September 1984 that Art Force was

issued every two to three months. The Council has now informed

the Committee that only three issues were produced in 1983-84

and one to date in 1984-85. In addition, arrangements for

printing these issues were made without going to public tender.

The irregular publication of what the Australia Council has

intended to be at least a quarterly magazine demonstrates to the

Committee a lack of planning in the Council's publication

program and consequently the arrangements for the award of

printing contracts are currently haphazard.

The Committee accepts the Council's undertaking that it is

examining its publication program "to determine whether some

projects can be combined so that a tender can be advertised in

substitution for the present arrangements", and will be

monitoring developments in the budget estimates.

National Library of Australia

The Committee has noted the comments and information

provided by the National Library of Australia during recent

estimates examinations in relation to the planning of services

and facilities for the disabled. The Committee is concerned that

the National Library's commitment to services for the disabled

which has been forcefully expressed in recent years, is no

longer specifically stated in its Five Year Plan but has been

"subsumed in the overall allocation of resources". The Committee

will be monitoring developments in this area also during budget

estimates.

63.

Provision of Information in Explanatory Notes

The Department's Explanatory Notes provided a lump sum

revised estimate figure for an item on compensation, legal costs

and damages. A breakdown of this figure for each component was

subsequently provided to a question taken on notice. The

Committee is of the opinion that whenever lump sum amounts are

sought for compensation, legal costs and damages, a breakdown

for each individual case should be included in Explanatory

Notes.

DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL· AFFAIRS

National Aboriginal Conference

As part of its examination of the additional estimates for

the Department of Aboriginal Affairs, the Committee considered

the Auditor-General1s Report on Inspection and Audit of the

National Aboriginal Conference dated 24 September 1984.

The Committee was concerned at the lack of representation by

the NAC at the hearings of the Department on 23 April 1985,

particularly in view of the adverse comments contained in the

Auditor-General's Report on the NAC. The NAC has previously

appeared before the Committee, and, given Estimates Committees'

well known concern with reports by the Auditor-General, it could

reasonably have been expected that the Report's findings would

be raised by the Committee. The Department apparently decided

not to inform the NAC of the impending estimates meetings,

thereby preventing the Committee having access to relevant and

informed witnesses in a subject area which would almost

certainly be raised during the hearings.

64.

The Department undertook at the hearings to provide replies

to questions taken on notice, by its officers, relating to the

NAC. In its written replies to the Committee, the Department

indicated that questions had been referred to the NAC for reply.

It noted further that as from 29 A.pril its officers working in

the NAC had been locked out. From the evidence before it, the

Committee finds it difficult to accept the Department's

implication that the lock-out of its officers by the NAC had

prevented information being provided to the Committee. The

lock-out occurred 6 days after the Committee's hearings and the

NAC has since asserted before the Committee that access to their

relevant files would have been given to Departmental officers.

After writing to the National Chairman of the NAC seeking

replies to the outstanding questions referred to it by the

Department, the Committee was advised by the NAC that it was

preparing responses to a number of the questions and would

welcome the opportunity to appear before the Committee. The

Committee sought from the Senate, and was subsequently granted,

an extension of time to report to enable the NAC to appear

before the Committee.

A public hearing was held on 14 May 1985 at which the

National Chairman, Secretary-General and Director of Finance of

the NAC appeared. At this hearing the NAC indicated to the

Committee that it had supported the Auditor-General undertaking

an investiagtion after it had become apparent that financial

transactions involving the NAC had deteriorated to unacceptable

standards. The NAC did not dispute the findings of the

Auditor-General and emphasised to the Committee that its primary

concern on becoming aware of the criticisms was to ensure that

the deficiencies which had been identified should be properly

addressed and overcome. The Auditor-General's investigations

related to the 1983-84 financial year and the NAC suggested that

many of the deficiencies had been corrected in respect of

transactions for 1984-85.

65.

To illustrate its concern at overcoming its deficiencies,

the MAC arranged for a further audit to be undertaken by

Deloitte Haskins and Sells, which in a report dated 24 December

1984, concluded that "we are of the opinion that there has been

a marked improvement in the administrative system and that

considerably more attention is now being given to procedural

compliance. We further understand that Price Waterhouse have now

been engaged to act as internal auditors to monitor compliance

with financial control systems on a continuing basis."

The Committee accepts that the MAC has been making a

considerable effort to overcome the deficiencies identified by

the Auditor-General. While the Committee noted the "marked

improvements" referred to by Deloitte Haskins and Sells, it also

noted that Deloitte Haskins and Sells were "unable to certify

that satisfactory administrative processes were operating at the

time of our review".

The Committee is of the opinion that it was the

responsibility of the Department to have at least informed the

MAC that Estimates hearings were to be conducted so that the MAC

could have the opportunity of responding directly to the

Auditor-General1s comments. In view of this opinion the

Committee believes that, on the information available to it, the

actions of the Department of Aboriginal Affairs raise an

important principle concerning the processes involved with the

attendance of witnesses before Estimates Committees, together

with the presentation of information to Committees.

Although the Committee appreciates that the Senate has

already granted it an extension of time to report, the Committee

nevertheless believes that as an important principle has been

raised and not satisfactorily resolved, the matter needs further

examination.

66.

In view of the imminent Senate debate on Appropriation Bill

(No.3) 1984-85 and Appropriation Bill (No.4) 1984-85, the

Chairman of the Committee therefore proposes to move that the

following matter be referred to Estimates Committee D for report

on or before Tuesday 28 May 1985:

The processes involved in the appearance of witnesses before

and presentation of information to Estimates Committee D by

the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and National Aboriginal

Conference during its consideration of the proposed

additional expenditure for 1984-85 .

Aboriginal Hostels Limited

The Committee was concerned that, during its hearings,

officers representing Aboriginal Hostels Limited were unable to

provide information as to the necessity for an additional

estimate of $393,735 on administrative expenses. The Committee

strongly supports the often expressed view that officers

representing such bodies before Committees should be capable of

providing sufficient information in order for Committees

properly to undertake their scrutinizing role and for such

bodies to be aware of their responsibility and accountability to

Parliament.

The Committee was concerned that an amount of $30,312 was

owed to Aboriginal artists and makes the general observation

that government and related bodies owing money for work or

services provided by individuals have a responsibility to ensure

that such debts are acquitted as expeditiously as possible.

Bureaucratic procedures or problems should not diminish this

responsibility to reimburse individual citizens for work

performed.

67.

GENERAL

The Committee was concerned to note that the majority of the

problems it felt compelled to raise in this report relate to

various statutory bodies. Previous Estimates Committees have

e/pressed concern over a number of years to ensure that

statutory authorities, although given a degree of independence

in their operations, nevertheless remain fully accountable to

the Parliament. The Committee encountered examples of

authorities compromising their independence by making party

political decisions, of financial maladministration and of

inadequately briefed witnesses appearing before it when seeking

additional public funds from the Parliament. The Committee is of

the opinion that an indifference to the Parliament's right to

scrutinize operations and a lack of an awareness of

accountability to Parliament still exist within a significant

number of statutory authorities.

The Committee intends to continue its assistance to

Parliament in the examination of statutory authorities to ensure

they comprehend their responsibilities and ultimate

accountability to Parliament and through it the people of

Australia.

68.

4. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance

given by the Minister for Education, Minister for Resources and

Energy and the officers of the various departments and

authorities who appeared before the Committee.

The Committee particularly records its appreciation at the

exceptional service provided by Hansard staff who assisted the

Committee's deliberations by expeditiously providing transcripts

after public hearings.

May 1985

69.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

• 1

THE SENATE

Estimates Committee D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 1

Thursday, 18 April 1985

MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 1.49 p.m. in Senate Committee Room 6.

RESOLUTIONS: The Secretary reported Resolutions of the Senate dated 22 February 1985, 26 March 1985, 27 March 1985 and 16 April 1985 relating to the appointment and membership of Estimates Committees and the reference of Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1984-85.

ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: The Secretary then called for nominations for Chairman. Senator Reynolds was nominated by Senator Puplick. There being no further nominations, Senator Reynolds was declared elected and thereupon took the Chair.

RELEASE OF DEPARTMENTAL WRITTEN ANSWERS: On the motion of Senator Puplick the following resolution was agreed to:

That the Chairman be authorised to release written answers to questions provided by departments subsequent to meetings of the Committee.

MANNER OF EXAMINING THE ADDITIONAL ESTIMATES: The Committee agreed to proceed with the examination of Departmental Estimates in the following order:

Education Housing and Construction Sport, Recreation and Tourism Arts, Heritage and Environment Aboriginal Affairs

The Committee anticipated considering each Department on 18 April 1985 and agreed to suspend the public meeting between 6.30 p.m. and 8.p.m.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 2 p.m.

ATTENDANCE: Senators Baume, Puplick, Reynolds, Watson and Zakharov.

Apology: Senator Aulich

April 1985

CONFIRMED:

Chairman

73.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 2

Thursday, 18 April 1985

1. MEETING

The Committee met at 2.00 p.m. in Senate Committee Room 6. The Chairman (Senator Margaret Reynolds) took the Chair.

The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the

Estimates.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION

In attendance: Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Mr R.N. Allen, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr J.J. Wilson, Special Adviser, Policy & Resource Planning Division Mr C. Beltz, First Assistant Secretary, Education

Programs Division Mr P. Bowler, First Assistant Secretary, General Student Assistance Division Dr A. Taloni, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division Mr A. Abrahart, First Assistant Secretary, General Policy

& Research Division Mr P. Hughes, Chairman, National Aboriginal Education Committee Miss J. Miller, Assistant Secretary, International

Education Branch

Kr F. Kearns, Assistant Secretary, Territorial Policy & Co-ordination Branch Mr R. Harvey, Acting Assistant Secretary, Planning & Budgeting Branch

A u.S ,t r .aJ ,i an_Ce.j3i t aJL_Te r r jtc ·Ï‡ y _£ j : h oPlji^Au th o Jj. t y

Dr E . Price, £;er;icr Director (Resources) Dr A. Butterfield, Director (Resources) Ms T. Reilly, Principal Executive Officer, Finance and Computing

Commonwealth Tertiary Education Commission

Mr R.H. Graham.e, Assistant Commissioner Mr J. Kullarvey, Director (Finance)

Com mo nwealth Schools Commission

Mr R.P. McNamara, First Assistant Commissioner, Operations and Resources Division Mr G . Boomer, Director, Curriculum Development Division Dr J . McMorrow, Acting First Assistant Commissioner,

General Resource Programs D ivision Mr W. L. Streat, Acting First Assistant Commissioner, Specific Purpose Programs D i vi si on Kr P. Cameron, Assistant Commissioner, School Facilities

Branch Mr B. Peck, Assistant Commissioner, Services to Schools E ranch Mr W. Daniels, Assistant Commissioner, Operations Branch Mr B. Thomas, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Resources

E ranch

The A ustralia.! _A ’ .c.t jp/caJ

Mr H , Jones, Head, Finance and Accounts Mir J. Brayshaw, Budget Office

C a n b e rra College, of Advanced _Fd_ucatior

Kr G. Eadie, Secretary Mr W. Dwyer, Bursar

D e p a rtment of,._Finan.ee

Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division

75.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 270-272, 278, 279, 282-284, 36C (Document A) Divisions 848, 850, 851, 855 (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Education, subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

4 . £aRTJ„C.UJARS_Oi-_Pj^iJPfiSEn_A£PJ5ljrC)2iAIvJ:XP£MPJiIJJ(£_lS£4r£5-r DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND CONSTRUCTION

) n attendance: Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Horsing ar.d Construction

Mr D.A. Cook, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr B.J. Wight, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Housing Policy Division Mr R.G. Pitt, Assistant Secretary, Finance

Department of Finance

Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division

The Minister made an introductory statement.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 352-354 (Document A) Divisions 896, 897 (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Housing and Construction, subject to undertakings by officers to provide additional information to the Committee.

76.

5. I ^ a , L C M M ^ J - J > EQPflS££)_^PPJSJP^.£XiLEMPJTDm 1984-85 - DEPARTMENT OF' SPORT, RECREATION AND TOUR TRW

In attendance: Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Biifcartjcen.t.. c.f. Sjpcyrj:^ J.ecj.e^tlpr— SrJ-TpurjiiS

Mr R.G. Harvey, First Assistant Secretary, Tourism s Expositions Division Mr C.J. Thompson, Government Printer, Australian Government Publishing Service Mr B. Mills, Assistant Secretary, Expositions Operations

Branch Mr J. Kirton, Director, Co-ordination International and State Liaison Mr K. Fairbrether, Assistant Secretary, Secretariat and

Co-ordination Branch Mr A.W. Barden, Director, Resource Management Mr D. Mazitelli, Assistant Secretary, Sports Facilities and Events

A.UPtxeJJpx,_Ppiortp_pojnjiiipplcr:

Mr G. Kartung, General Manager Mr M. Weeks, Director, Management and Planning Section

Australian Tourist Commission

Mr J. Angel, Assistant General Manager, Operations

D & p a rtin eji t_of _ Fir, aj. ce

Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division

The Department presented corrigenda pages for its Explanatory Notes (pages 11 and 13) and these corrigenda were tabled.

The Chairman called cn the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 130, 333, 590, 592 (Document A)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Sport, Recreation and Tourism, subject to undertakings by officers to provide additional information to the Committee.

6. £AmCJJMJ^_OF^j^P£ER^PPI^„lDl)AI^EXPE>ipJT:UJii:_J2L8irS5_r r . m a m i l ' . OF ARTS.,. HERITAGE AND. ENVIRONMENT

lr attendance: Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

P&p^r.i'-mep,t_pi_Ar±Sj _ iiej:j„t^s.e_apd_Enyj^pjhjri.epi

Mr A.G. Keir, Deputy Secretary Mr M. Eourke, First Assistant Secretary, Arts, Film and Heritage Division Ms A. Hull, Assistant Secretary, Arts Branch Dr A. McCusker, Assistant Secretary, Environment

Strategy Branch Hr G. Gilmour, Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination and Management Services Branch Mr B . Zanetti, Director, Finance and Services Dr D. Yerbury, General Manager, Australia Council Hr E. Taylor, Director, Financial Advisory Division,

Australia Council Mr J. Kitney, Director, Management Services, Australia Council Mr R. Adams, Director, Arts Co-ordination,

Australia Council

Pepaj:tinsXit_oi_l'lnar.ce

Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 330, 336 (Document A) Divisions 889, 890 (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment, subject to undertakings by officers to provide additional information to the Committee.

7. ADJOURNMENT1

The Committee adjourned at 10.25 p.m.

78.

8. AESKECMCI

Senators Margaret Reynolds (Chairman) , Aulich, Baume, Puplick, Watson, Zakharov. Senators Boswell and Earradine also attended.

CONFIRMED:

April 1985

79.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 3

Tuesday, 23 April 1985

1. MEETING

April in Margaret

DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS

In attendance: Senator the Hon. Gareth Evans, Q.C., Minister for Resources and Energy, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Aboriginal Affairs

Mr H. Jacka, Acting Secretary Mr E. Willmot, Deputy Secretary Mr G. Brownbill, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr R. Beacman, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Heritage Division Mr D. O'Rourke, First Assistant Secretary, Program Development Division Mr A. Koukoulas, First Assistant Secretary, Management

Division Mr W. Miller, Acting Assistant Secretary, Budget Branch Mr K. Wanganeen, Assistant Secretary, Management Operations

Aboriginal Hostels Limited

Ms L. O'Donoghue CBE, AM, Chairman Mr R. Clark, Company Secretary Mr J. Rooks, Finance Officer

The Committee met at 8.04 p.m. on Tuesday, 23 Senate Committee Rooms 1 & 2. The Chairman (Senator Reynolds) took the Chair.

80.

& t r t xt.u t ,al_S

Mr W. Dix, Principal

ii.bcricii.ral Development Commission

Mr R. Winrce, Administrator Mr F. McMahon, Assistant Administrator, Management Mr Vi. Roller, Acting Administrator, Operations

Depaj.l· E'en t_of _Jiji an c e

Ms P.A. Lyndon, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Pclicj Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Division 120, 125 (Document A) Division 805, 806 (Document B)

The Department tabled additional information relating to the funding of the Aborigine] Training and Cultural

Institute.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs, subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

3. ADJOURNMENT

The Committee adjourned at 10.22 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE

Senators Margaret Reynolds (Chairman), Aulich, Baume, Puplick, Watson, Zakharov.

CONFIRMED:

F tgar ex tat wuwjh

Margaret Reynolds

April 1985

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 4

Tuesday, 7 May 1985

1.

2 .

3.

4 .

5.

MEETING: The Committee met in deliberative session at 8.50 a.m. in Senate Committee Rooms Nos. 1 and 2. The Chairman (Senator Margaret Reynolds) took the chair.

CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the meetings held on 18 April 1985 (Nos. 1 and 2) and 23 April 1985 (No.3) were confirmed.

ITEMS FOR INCLUSION IN REPORT OF COMMITTEE: The Committee considered items to be included in its Report and agreed that aspects relating to the following areas should be included:

Commonwealth Schools Commission World Tourism Organization Interdepartmental Committee on Inward Duty-Free Shopping "The Return of Captain Invincible" Australia Council

National Library Explanatory Notes National Aboriginal Conference Aboriginal Hostels Limited Aboriginal Artists Statutory Authorities

The Committee resolved that outstanding replies to questions taken on notice concerning the National Aboriginal Conference be pursued via correspondence from the Chairman.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.30 a.m.

ATTENDANCE: Senators Margaret Reynolds (Chairman), Aulich, Baume and Puplick. Apologies were received from Senators Watson and Zakharov.

CONFIRMED:

May 1985

Margaret Reynolds Chairman

82.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 5

Thursday 9 May 1985

MEETING: The Committee met in deliberative session at 8.20 a.m. in Senate Committee Room No.6. The Chairman (Senator Margaret Reynolds) took the Chair.

CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the meeting held on 7 May 1985 (No.4) were confirmed.

BUSINESS ARISING: The Chairman referred to correspondence with the National Aboriginal Conference inviting it to provide outstanding replies to questions taken on notice concerning the NAC directly to the Committee and noted that the NAC had accepted the invitation.

The Committee resolved:

(a) that an indication as to why a representative of the NAC was not present at the hearings of 23 April 1985 be sought;

(b ) that follow-up action be taken on the outstanding replies to be provided by the NAC; and

(c) that the NAC be given the opportunity of appearing before the Committee in public session.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the Chairman's draft Report to the Senate.

The Committee resolved that the draft Report be agreed to, subject to amendment of the section on the NAC following any further examination of the NAC.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 8.43 a.m.

ATTENDANCE: Senators Margaret Reynolds (Chairman), Aulich, Baume, Puplick, Watson. An apology was received from Senator Zakharov.

CONFIRMED:

Margaret Reynolds Chairman

May 1985 83

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 6

Tuesday, 14 May 1985

MEETING: The Committee met at 8.45 a.m. in Senate Committee Room No.6. The Chairman (Senator Margaret Reynolds) took the Chair.

STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to this meeting with the NAC and referred to the Senate granting on 10 May 1985 an extension of time for the Committee to report.

STATEMENT BY NATIONAL CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL ABORIGINAL CONFERENCE: The National Chairman of the NAC made a statement relating to the Committees hearings of 23 April 1985.

PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR 1984-85 - DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS - RE-CONSIDERATION OF DIVISION 120

In attendance: Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

The Chairman called on Division 120 to be reconsidered.

The NAC tabled additional information relating to guestions taken on notice during the hearings of 23 April 1985.

The Committee concluded its re-consideration of Division 120 of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.30 a.m.

ATTENDANCE: Senators Margaret Reynolds (Chairman), Baume, Puplick, Watson and Zakharov. An apology was received from Senator Aulich.

National Aboriginal Conference

Mr Rob RILEY - National Chairman Mr Les MALEZER - Secretary General Mr Colin KAY - Director of Finance

CONFIRMED

May 1985

84

Margaret Reynolds Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 7

Wednesday, 15 May 1985

MEETING: The Committee met in deliberative session at 9.50 a.m. in Senate Committee Room No.5. The Chairman (Senator Margaret Reynolds) took the Chair.

CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of Meetings held on 9 May 1985 (No.5) and 14 May 1985 (No.6) were confirmed.

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered, the revised section of the Chairman's draft Report to the Senate relating to the National Aboriginal Conference.

The Committee resolved that the revised section of the draft Report be agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.57 a.m.

ATTENDANCE: Senators Margaret Reynolds (Chairman), Aulich, Baume, Puplick, Zakharov. An apology was received from Senator Watson.

CERTIFIED CORRECT:

Margaret Reynolds Chairman

May 1985

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D SECOND REPORT TO THE SENATE

■ :

i ■

A U ST RA L I A N SENATE C A N S E ^ t A A

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

SECOND REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee D has the honour to present its Second Report to the Senate.

1. On 15 May 1985 the Senate referred to the Committee the following matter for report on or before Tuesday, 28 May 1985:

The processes involved in the appearance of witnesses before, and presentation of information to, Estimates Committee D by the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and the National Aboriginal Conference during its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for 1984-85.

2. The Committee has examined the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and the National Aboriginal Conference in relation to the reference, and has received explanations from the Minister for Education, officers of the Department and of the NAC. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of

the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate.

3. In a letter to the Chairman dated 22 May 1985, the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs indicated the Department's understanding of the general arrangements for the appearance of officers before Estimates Committees to be either that the organization had requested additional estimates or that the Committee had provided prior notice of its intention to raise issues relating to that organization. The Committee appreciates that the Department in this case acted in accordance with that understanding of the procedures of Estimates Committees.

4. The Committee, however, reiterates the opinion expressed in its Report of 15 May 1985 that in view of the adverse comments contained in the Auditor-General1s Report on the NAC, and given Estimates Committees' well known concern with reports by the Auditor-General, it could reasonably have been expected

that the Auditor-General1s findings would be raised by the Committee. While the Committee notes that the Department was represented by officers able to respond v.o most questions relating to the NAC it also notes the NAC"s claim that it was inappropriate for the Department to speak on its behalf

and that it wished to accept responsibility for its own representations.

89.

5. In relation to the second aspect of its reference, the Committee draws the Senate's attention to the explanations provided by the Department and the NAC in the Hansard record of the hearing of 23 May 1985 relating to the delayed provision of written replies to the Committee.

6. The Committee again expresses its appreciation at the further co-operation and assistance given by the Minister for Education, Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan and the officers from the Department and the National Aboriginal Conference.

Margaret Reynolds Chairman

May 1985

90.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

· ; / ' Λ

■ " · ■ a

;>· ί

‘ ·..·

f . · · ; - : ■

THE SE N A T E

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 8

Thursday, 23 May 1985

MEETING: The Committee met at 8.35 a .m . in Senate Committee Rooms 1 and 2. The Chairman (Senator Margaret Reynolds) took the Chair.

STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman reported the Resolution of the Senate of 15 May 1985 relating to the reference of a matter to the Committee and made a statement relating thereto.

DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS - EXAMINATION: In attendance: Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Aboriginal Affairs

Mr H. Jacka - Deputy Secretary Mr K. Wanganeen - Assistant Secretary, Management Mr V). Miller - Assistant Secretary, Budget Mr T. Hanrahan - Director, Management Mr G. Bissaker - Director, Budget Co-ordination

National Aboriginal Conference

Mr 0. Cruse - Member for NSB area, representing the National Chairman Mr C. Kay - Director of Finance Mr N. Johnson - Assistant Secretary-General

The Minister made an introductory statement.

The Committee concluded its examination of the Department of Aboriginal Affairs.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.02 a .m .

ATTENDANCE: Senators Margaret Reynolds (Chairman), Baume, Puplick and Zakharov. Apologies were receiv ’ ' ' * ’ ch

and Watson.

CONFIRMED:

Chairman

1985 93.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 9

Tuesday 28 May 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 9.55 a .m . in Senate Committee Room No.5. The Chairman (Senator Margaret Reynolds) took the Chair.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the meeting held on 23 May 1985 (No.8) were confirmed.

3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the Chairman's draft Report to the Senate. The Committee resolved that the draft Report be agreed to.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.57 a.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: Senators Margaret Reynolds (Chairman), Aulich and Baume. Apologies were received from Senators Puplick, Watson and Zakharov.

CERTIFIED CORRECT:

Margaret Reynolds Chairman

May 1985

94.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E .REPORT TO THE SENATE

! L

i i I I i

E S T I M A T E S C O M M I T T E E E

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee E presents its Report to the Senate.

1. On 27 March 1985, the Senate referred to the Committee the

Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the

Service of the year ending on 30 June 1985 and the

Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in

respect of the year ending 30 June 1985 for the following

departments:-

. Defence

. Foreign Affairs (including the Australian Development Assistance Bureau)

. Special Minister of State

. Resources and Energy · * ■

. Attorney-General's Department.

2. The Committee has considered the Estimates of the

Departments together with the Departmental Explanatory

Notes, and has received explanations of them from the

Minister for Resources and Energy (Senator the Hon.

G.J. Evans Q.C.) and officers of the Departments. A copy

of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the

evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the

information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation

Bill (No. 3) 1985 and Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1985.

Answers to questions which the Minister and officials

considered could be answered more adequately if taken on

notice and replied to in writing following the Committee's

hearing, will be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in

the final Hansard report of the Committee's hearing.

97.

3. The Committee wishes to draw certain specific matters to

the attention of the Senate.

Presentation of Estimates

4. The Committee was concerned that in some respects the

presentation of the Additional Estimates could have been

improved. Prior to the Committee's sitting, but after a

small number of copies of the Department's Explanatory

Notes had been circulated, the Department of the Special

Minister of State re-presented a number of sub-divisions

of expenditure in order to include requested dissections

on each item of expenditure. A similar problem arose with

the explanatory notes for the Department of Defence,

though to a lesser degree. The Committee considers that

where expenditure falls under an item head the item should

be financially dissected in the usual way to facilitate a

proper grasp of where expenditure is going and how it is

fluctuating.

5. The Explanatory Notes of the Attorney-General's Department

presented item dissections which in some cases displayed

"Actual Expenditure for 1983/84" for comparison with

"Revised Estimate for 1984/85", and in other cases

displayed "Original Appropriation 1984/85" for comparison

with the "Revised Estimate". In one case an erratum sheet

deleted "Original Appropriation 1984/85" and substituted

"Actual Expenditure 1983/84". In all of the Explanatory

Notes of other Departments considered by the Committee the

standard comparison was between "Original Appropriation

1984/85" and "Revised Estimate 1984/85".

6. The Department of Resources and Energy in Explanatory

Notes dissections, consistently used the expression

"Original Estimate" where other Departments had used

"Original Appropriation".

98.

7. Without prejudice to any reforms or proposals which may

arise from the current investigation by the Senate

Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations

into the presentation of estimates, the Committee would

suggest that in Additional Estimates, as far as possible,

all sub-divisions of expenditure should be itemised and

terminology and presentation should be consistent across

all Departments. Dissections of items should present four

columns displaying -

. actual expenditure for the previous financial year;

. original appropriations for the current year;

. revised estimates for the current year; and

. monetary variation as between the original appropriation and the revision.

Attendance of Senators

8. The detailed scrutiny of expenditure of tax payers' money

is an exercise which deserves a high priority among

Senators. Thus the Committee was pleased to note the

presence and active involvement in the consideration of

these additional estimates of other Senators who were not

members of the Committee. They properly took advantage of

the Estimates Committee procedure and the Committee's

access to senior officials to examine particular matters

of interest and concern to them.

Briefing of Officials Attending

9. The Committee considers that because of the delay involved

it is unfortunate that a significant number of its

questions were not answered orally, but were taken on

notice for a written reply. The Committee accepts that

this is a consequence of the complexity of government and

the probing nature of questions asked by Senators. The

99.

Committee takes the opportunity, however, to remind

Departments of the need to ensure that officials attending

to assist the Minister should as far as possible be

briefed to give adequate oral answers and table explana­

tory documents to all but the most detailed of questions.

The Committee is faced with the task of framing questions

on the basis of complex material and then absorbing

answers which of necessity are often detailed and complex.

Confused answers which may reflect inadequate briefing,

such as arose in questioning directed to expenditure on

Australian Non-Government Organisations (Australian Devel­

opment Assistance Bureau Explanatory Notes, Division 318,

Sub-division 7, Item 01, Support for overseas aid activi­

ties), do not assist the Committee in its task.

10. Finally the Committee expresses its thanks for the

assistance given by the Minister, Senator the Hon.

G.J. Evans Q.C., and the officers who attended the

hearing, orally answered questions and subsequently

prepared written answers to questions on notice.

Mai Colston

Chairman

May 1985

100.

ATTACHMENTS:

Page

Documents Tabled by the Department of Defence 102

Documents Tabled by the Department of the Special Minister of State 103

Documents Tabled by the Department of Resources and Energy 104

Documents Tabled by the Attorney-General's Department 105

101.

Division: Sub-Division

256 4

DEFENCE PRODUCTION Australian Industry Assistance

Original Revised Variation

Appropriation Estimate 1984-85 1984-85

$ $ $

Australian Industry Assistance . Munitions 3 000 000 3 811 000 +811 000

. Aerospace 2 500 000 5 507 000 + 3 007 000

. Shipbuilding 5 500 000 3 522 000 -1 978 000

. Administration 8 119 000 7 622 000 -497 000

Total Aust. Industry Assist 19 119 000 20 462 000 + 1 343 000

Other Expenses 81 000 81 000

Total Division 256/4 19 200 000 20 543 000 + 1 343 000

Division: Sub-Division:

256 1

- DEFENCE PRODUCTION Munitions Production

Expenses (including payments to relevant Trust Accounts) Original Appropriation

1984-85

Revised Estimate 1984-85

Variation

$ $ $

- Uncovered Costs 69 763 000 70 662 000 +899 000

- Rearrangement of Capital Facilities 445 000 445 000 NIL

- Other Expenditure 511 000 511 000 NIL

Reserve Stock 4 593 000 4 593 000 NIL

Production Development

TOTAL Division 256/1

2 200 000 2 200 000 NIL

77 512 000 78 411 000 +899 000

102.

0063M

DEPARTMENT OF THE SPECIAL MINISTER OF STATE

NOTIONAL ITEMS - REALLOCATE ON OF FUNDS

DIVISION : 575 - ADMINISTRATIVE

SUB-DIVISION : 2 - Administrative Expenses

DISSECTION:

Travel and Subsistence Office Requisites and Equipment, Stationery and Printing Postage, Telegrams and Telephone

Services Computer Services Consultants Incidental and Other Expenditure

BUD3ET REVISED ALLOCATION ALLOCATION VARIATION 1984/85 1984/85 $ $ $

364,000 340,000 - 24,000

194,000 230,000 + 36,000

444,000 600,000 + 156,000 1,881,400 1,693,400 - 188,000 165,000 165,000 -

598,800 618,800 + 20,000

3,647,200 3,647,200 NIL

REASON FOR VARIATIONS:

The increases reflect a higher than anticipated requirement for office requisites (especially office machines) and higher than anticipated telephone charges during the first full year of operations since this Departments Physical separation from the then Department of Administrative Services, plus

. small increase in the requirement for legal expenses. These increases have been offset by rationalisation in, and some deferment of Departmental travel and rationalisation of Departmental computer services.

103.

FUNDS DRAHN FROM THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE PENDING APPROPRIATION OF ADDITIONAL ESTIMATES

BILL

BILL

Item Description

Amount Expenditure draan to 18-4-85

$ $

NO 3

Nil

NO 4

943-0-07 Payment to Nea South Hales for royalties forgone on coal from Coal Cliff stockpile 3 400 000 3 051 646

944-0-03 Assistance to Queensland Mines Ltd - purchase, storage and insurance of uranium 2 900 2 889

944-0-04 Royal Commission into British Nuclear Tests in Australia - Costs of Commonaealth representation 121 000 109 930

A T T O R N E Y -G E N E R A L 'S D E PA R TM EN T

7 1 g m ROBERT GARRAN OFFICES

NATIONAL c ir c u it BARTON ACT 2600

PLEASE QUOTE

YOUR REF

V April 1985

Mr P. O'Keefe Secretary Senate Estimates Committee E, Parliament House CANBERRA ACT 2600

Dear Mr O'Keefe

Set out below are details of expenditure from the Advance to the Minister for Finance which were not included in the Explanatory Notes for the Attorney-General's Department:

Division Sub-Division Item Description Variation Total Provided

$ 5

165 3 05 Criminal

Injuries Compensation + 82,700 170,000

175 1 01 Australian

Legal Aid Office - Salaries + 800,000 800,000

175 1 02 A LAO -

Overtime + 10,000 10,000

175

2

01 ALAO -

Travelling and Subsistence + 34,000 34,000

175 2 02 ALAO - Office

Requisites etc + 50,800 50,800

175 2 03 ALAO -

Postage etc + 56,300 56,300

175 2 04 ALAO -

Incidentals + 54,900 54,900

175 3 01 ALAO -

Legal Disbur­ sements + 75,000 75,000

105.

-2-

Division

175

Sub-Division Item Description Variation Total Provided

3 02 ALAO -

Private Legal Practitioners +2,000,000 2,000,000

(P.E. BASKETT) Assistant Secretary

106.

- 27 -

ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT

DIVISION: 181 Human Rights Commission

SUB-DIVISION: 2 Administrative Expenses

ADDITIONAL ESTIMATE (A) 1984/85 $

ORIGINAL APPROPRIATION (B) 1984/85 $

ACTUAL EXPENDITURE (C) 1983/84 $

VARIATION BETWEEN (A 4 B) AND C

$ %

415,000 2,589,200 1,126,764 +1,877,436 166.6

PURPOSE OF ITEM:

To provide for the costs of travel and subsistence, office requisites, information services, postage, telephones, building rental, research, public hearings and conferences, reimbursement to States, incidental expenditure and furnishings and fittings.

GENERAL COMMENT:

The increased requirement is to meet the cost of establishing a shopfront office in Canberra City, additional research projects under the Sex Discrimination Act, and to meet co-operative agreements with NSW and South Australia which have now been finalized.

DISSECTION:

ACTUAL REVISED INCREASE

EXPENDITURE ESTIMATE DECREASE

1983/84 1984/85

~ ~ r ~ $

Travelling and subsistence Office requisites and 229,569 300,000 + 70,431

equipment 94,074 93,200 - 874

Information services Postage, telegrams and 239,688 915,000 + 675,312

telephones 167,904 175,000 + 7,096

Building rental and repairs 206,867 358,000 + 151,133

Research (Consultants) Public Hearings and 42,411 170,000 + 127,589

Conferences 7,242 29,000 + 21,758

Reimbursement to States Incidental and other 107,412 835,000 ♦ 727,588

expenditure 22,066 64,000 + 41,934

Furniture and Fittings Grants to Community 9,531 15,000 + 5,469

Organisations “ 50,000 + 50,000

Total 1,126,764 3,004,200 +1 ,877,436

107.

.11

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

■ Ί

· -

/

AUSTRALIAN SENATE CANBERRA. A CT

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 1

16 APRIL 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 8.40 am in

Committee Room No. 5.

2. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: The Secretary then called for

nominations for Chairman. Senator Reynolds was nominated

by Senator Black, seconded by Senator Sir John Carrick.

Senator Reynolds thereupon took the Chair. A likely change

in Committee membership was discussed.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85:

The Chairman reported the entry in the Journals of the

Senate of 27 March 1985 referring to the Particulars of

Proposed Additional Expenditure 1985 for the following

Departments:

Resources and Energy

Attorney-General's

Special Minister of State

Foreign Affairs

Defence

4. The Committee resolved to examine Departmental Estimates in

the following order:

Department of Defence

Department of Foreign Affairs

Department of Special Minister of State

Department of Resources and Energy

Attorney-General's Department

111.

5. The meeting was adjourned at 8.57 am until 1.55 pm on

Thursday 18 April 1985 in the Senate Chamber.

6. Attendance: Senator J.R. Black

4

S e n a t o r the Hon. S i r J o h n G a r r i c k

S e n a t o r M. R e y n o l d s

S e n a t o r B.C. T e a g u e

S e n a t o r J.P. M c K i e r n a n a l s o a t t e n d e d

7. A p o l o g i e s : S e n a t o r D. J. M a c G i b b o n

S e n a t o r K.W. S i b r a a

C o n f i r m e d :

g ' f c y L ·

Mai Colston Chairman

112.

*« 8 0^ AUSTRALIAN SENATE CANBERRA. AC.T.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 2

THURSDAY 18 APRIL 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 1.55 pm in the

Senate Chamber. The Secretary called the meeting to order.

2. MEMBERSHIP: The Secretary reported that Senator McKiernan had

replaced Senator Sibraa and that Senator Colston had replaced

Senator Reynolds pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate on 16

April 1985. The Secretary advised that it was therefore

necessary to elect a new Chairman.

3. CHAIRMAN: The Secretary called for nominations for Chairman.

Senator Colston was nominated and elected.

4. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Committee confirmed the Minutes of

the meeting held on 16 April 1985.

5. PUBLICATION OF WRITTEN ANSWERS: On the motion of Senator Black

it was agreed that the Chairman be authorised to release written

answers to questions provided subsequent to meetings of the

Committee.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 2.00 pm.

6. ATTENDANCE: Senator Colston (Chairman) and Senators Black,

the Honourable Sir John Carrick, MacGibbon, McKiernan, Teague.

Confirmed:

Mai Colston Chairman

113.

AUSTRALIAN SENATE CANBERRA. A C T.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 3

THURSDAY 18 APRIL 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.00 pm. The Chairman,

Senator Colston, took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman reported the

Resolutions of the Senate on 27 March 1985, and made a

statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the

Committee in its examination of the estimates.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 -

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE

In Attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C.,

Minister for Resources and Energy representing the Minister for

Defence accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Defence

Mr A.K. Wrigley, Deputy Secretary B

Mr D.W. Anderson, First Assistant Secretary Technical Services

and Logistics Development

Brig. P.R. Badman, Director-General Operations and Plans - Army

Mr G.E. Barlow, Deputy Chief Defence Scientist

Cdre Beaumont, Acting Assistant Chief of the Defence Force

(Policy)

AVM B.H. Collings, Assistant Chief of the Defence Force

(Operations)

114.

Cdre Ο .R. Cooper, Deputy Chief of Naval Materiel

Mr L.A. Davey, Acting Assistant Secretary Defence Facilities

Program Management

Mr R.K. Ellis, Assistant Director Natural Disasters

Organisation (Policy and Support)

Mr R.H. Englund, Assistant Secretary Manpower Policy and

Requirements

Mr R.B. Finnegan, First Assistant Secretary Industrial

Mr P.G. Gifford, First Assistant Secretary Production

Development

AVM A.E. Heggen, Chief of Air Force Materiel

Mr P.A . Hemsley, Assistant Secretary Science and Technology

Administration

Mr P.R. Huntley, Acting Assistant Secretary Budget and Estimates

(General and Co-ordination)

Mr M.H. Ives, Acting First Assistant Secretary Programs and

Budgets

Mr M. Kargas, Acting Assistant Secretary Accounting

Brig G.J. Loughton, Acting Chief of Materiel - Army

Dr M.K. McIntosh, Acting First Assistant Secretary Defence

Industry and Materiel Policy

Mr J.E. McMahon, Assistant Secretary Resources Planning - Navy

Mr M.L. Murdoch, Acting Chief Executive Officer Program and

Resource Analysis

Mr M.J. Murray, Special Adviser Resources Procurement

Cmdr P.C. Phipps, Acting Director Naval Plans

Mr A.I.C. Pratt, Acting Assistant Secretary International Policy

(PNG and Defence Co-operation Programs)

Mr P.G. Skinner, Acting Assistant Secretary Resources Planning -

Army

Mr D.I. Taylor, Acting Special Adviser Production

Mr P.G. Terrill, First Assistant Secretary Commercial

Air Cdre J.I. Thomson, Director-General Operational

Requirements - Air Force

Mr N.C. Yeend, Acting Assistant Secretary Resources Planning -

Air Force

115.

Department of Finance

Mr B.J. C-leeson, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division

Ms A. Mays, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 230, 232-234, 239, 255-257, 260 - $249,670,000

(Document A)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed

Additional Expenditure for the Department of Defence, subject to

undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 -

DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C.,

Minister for Resources and Energy, representing the Minister for

Foreign Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Mr A.D. Campbell, Acting Deputy Secretary

Mr M.G.D. Williams, Acting First Assistant Secretary Management

and Foreign Service Division

Mr D.A. Hollway, Acting Assistant Secretary General Economic

Branch

Mr J.M.Watson, International Organisations and Humanitarian

Affairs Branch

Mr M. Fitzpatrick, Director Finance Section

Mr P. Varghese, Disarmament/Arms Control Branch

Mr D.J. Ritchie, Economic Relations Branch

Mr J. Gleeson, Director Resources Planning and Liaison Unit

116.

Mr H. Leece, Executive Officer Establishment Control

Mr G.J. Thompson, Budget Officer Finance Section

Mr G . Baseden, Resources Planning and Liaison Unit

Australian Development Assistance Bureau

Mr M.R. Casson, Acting First Assistant Secretary Policy Planning

and Management Division

Mr J.M. Powell, Assistant Secretary Program Planning and Review

Branch

Mr R.E. Stensholt, Assistant Secretary Development

Training Branch

Mr K.W. Aspinall, Acting Assistant Secretary Operations Support

Branch

Mr A. Macdonald, Head, Strategic Planning Section

Mr J. Castrission, Acting Budgets Officer

Department of Finance

Mr B.J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division

Ms A. Mays, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 315, 316, 318, 319

$22,921,000

Divisions 873, 875, 876

$440,000

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed

Additional Expenditure for the Department of Foreign Affairs,

subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional

information.

(Document A) -

(Document B ) -

117.

5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 -

DEPARTMENT OF THE SPECIAL MINISTER OF STATE

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C.,

Minister for Resources and Energy, representing the Special

Minister of State, accompanied by the following officers:

DEPARTMENT OF THE SPECIAL MINISTER OF STATE

Mr R. Holdich, Deputy Secretary

Mr J. Gavin, Senior Assistant Secretary Operations Unit

Mr P. Hempel, Director Budgeting and Information Systems Section

Mr H. Logue, First Assistant Secretary Parliamentary and General

Division

Mr R. Webb, Assistant Secretary Electoral, Grants and

Authorities Branch

Mr J. Simons, Assistant Secretary Parliamentary and Ministerial

Services

Mr H. Keen, Assistant Secretary National Awards and Symbols

Mr W. McCann, First Assistant Secretary Law Enforcement Policy

Division

Mr C. Whyte, Assistant Secretary Public Order Branch

Mr G. Quigley, Senior Assistant Secretary General Policy

Mrs N.C. Bee, Assistant Secretary Organised Crime Policy Branch

Mr R. Mooney, Head Protective Services Co-ordination Centre

Australian Federal Police

Deputy Commissioner Farmer, Deputy Commissioner AFP

Superintendant R. Dixon, Coastal Protection Unit

Mr S. Gavin, Secretary

Mr D. Lane, Estimates Officer

118.

Australian Electoral Commission

Mr B . Friend, Assistant Commissioner Resource Management

Mr J. Mahoney, Assistant Commissioner Information and Education

Mr A. Helling, Assistant Commissioner Operations

Mr E. Klatt, Director Finance and General

Commonwealth Grants Commission

Mr B . Major, Assistant Secretary

National Crime Authority

Mr G . Linnane, First Assistant Secretary

Roval Commission into British Nuclear Tests in Australia

Mr J. Atkinson, Secretary

Department of Finance

Mr B.J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division

Ms A. Mays, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 575, 577, 579, 580, 582 (Document A) -

$1 1 ,507 ,000

Divisions 953, 955 (Document B ) - $1,264,000

The Committee concluded its examination of the Proposed

Additional Expenditure for the Department of the Special

Minister of State, subject to undertakings by the Minister to

provide additional information.

119.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85

DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND ENERGY

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C.,

Minister for Resources and Energy, accompanied by the following

officers:

DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND ENERGY

Mr P. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary Coal and Minerals

Division

Mr J.C. Starkey, First Assistant Secretary Petroleum Division

Mr W.G. McGregor, First Assistant Secretary Uranium and Nuclear

Division

Mr A. Manderson, First Assistant Secretary Water and Development

Division

Mr G.C. Gorrie, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination

and Management Division

Mr B.R. Jones, Assistant Secretary Development Branch

Prof R.W.R. Rutland, Director Bureau of Mineral Resources

Mr C. Veenstra, Director Division of National Mapping

Australian Atomic Energy Commission

Dr D.G. Walker, Chief Executive Officer and Director Research

Establishment

Mr R.J. Baker, Controller, Finance and Supply

The Pipeline Authority

Mr T.R. Baker, Executive Member

Mr F.W. Noble, Finance Manager

Department of Finance

Mr B.J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division

120.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 520, 521, 523 (Document A) - $1,171,000

Divisions 942-944 (Document B) - $9,284,000

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed

Additional Expenditure for the Department of Resources and

Energy, subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide

additional information.

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 -

ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT

In Attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C.,

Minister for Resources and Energy, representing the

Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:

ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT

Mr L.G. Glare, Deputy Secretary

Mr L.J. Curtis, Deputy Secretary

Mr J.L.M. Carnsew, First Assistant Secretary Management

Division

Mr M.A. Cranswick, First Assistant Secretary Community Affairs

Division

Mr J. Wood, First Assistant Secretary Office of Consumer Affairs

Mr M.E. Haddrick, Acting First Assistant Secretary Justice and

Administrative Law Division

Mr P.E. Baskett, Assistant Secretary Operations

Mr N.S. Reaburn, Senior Assistant Secretary Criminal Law and

Security Branch

Mr R.G. Moss, Senior Assistant Secretary Legal Aid Branch

Mr C.C. Creswell, Senior Assistant Secretary Financial

Assistance Branch

Mr M.D. Starr, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary Companies and

Securities Branch

121.

Mr M.G. Dwyer, Assistant Secretary Special Services Branch

Mr P.G. Griffiths, Principal Legal Officer Bankruptcy Branch

Mr D. Wallace, Principal Legal Officer Family Law Branch

Mr R. Venables, Director Finance Section

Mrs D. Higgins, Assistant Director Office of the Director of

Public Prosecutions

Ms S. Gleeson, Director State/Non-Government Relations, Human

Rights Commission

Mr P. Clark, Senior Deputy Director Office of the Director of

Public Prosecutions

Department of Finance

Mr B.J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 161, 175, 179, 181, 187 (Document A) -

$7,432,000

Divisions 818, 820 (Document B ) - $698,000

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed

Additional Expenditure for the Attorney-General1s Department,

subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional

information.

8. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.56 pm.

9. ATTENDANCE: Senator Colston (Chairman) and Senators Black,

the Honourable Sir John Garrick, MacGibbon, McKiernan and

Teague. Senators Chaney, Durack, Kilgariff, Primmer and

Tate also attended.

Confirmed:

Mai Colston Chairman

122.

AUSTRALIAN SENATE CANBERRA. A.C.T.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 4

THURSDAY 18 APRIL 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 9.55 pm

in the Senate Chamber. The Chairman took the Chair.

2. DISCUSSION OF PROCEEDINGS: The Committee discussed the

role of Estimates Committees as acting on behalf of the

Senate to scrutinise the estimates of the Departments.

Points of procedure were also discussed.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee agreed to hold its next meeting

on 7 May 1985 subject to written answers having been

received from Departments, in order to consider its

report. The Committee adjourned at 10.03 pm.

ATTENDANCE: Senator M. A. Colston (Chairman)

Senator the Honourable Sir John Garrick

Senator D. J. MacGibbon

Senator B.C. Teague

APOLOGIES: Senator J.R. Black

Senator J.P. McKiernan

Confirmed:

123.

Mai Colston

Chairman

Ά Jj, AUSTRALIA,,^AUSTRALIAN SENATECANBERRA. A.C.T ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS NO. 5 Tuesday, 7 May 1985 1. MEETING: The Committee met in deliberative session at 8.05 a.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 7. The Chairman, Senator Colston, took the Chair. 2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: On the motion of Senator MacGibbon, the minutes of private meetings held on 18 April 1985 and the minutes of the public hearing held on 18 April 1985 were confirmed. 3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the Chairman's draft report to the Senate. The Committee discussed the written answers given by Departments and noted that many answers were not as detailed as expected. Some questions were considered to be inadequately answered and the Committee resolved to seek additional information on these questions. On the motion of Senator Car rick it was agreed that the draft report be adopted and that the Chairman be given leave to mention that some answers from departments are still outstanding if they have not been received by the Chairman at the time of tabling.124.

. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 8.15 a.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were

present: Senators Colston (Chairman), Black, the Hon. Sir John

Car rick, MacGibbon and Teague.

6. APOLOGIES: Senator McKiernan.

CERTIFIED CORRECT:

Mai Colston Chairman

125.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee F has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.

1. On 27 March 1985 the Senate referred to the

Committee for examination and report the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1985 and the Particulars of Certain

Proposed Additional Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1985 relating to the following

Departments:

Veterans' Affairs Transport Aviation Territories Local Government and Administrative Services

2. The Committee has considered the Additional

Estimates and has received explanations from the Minister for Veterans' Affairs (Senator Gietzelt) and officers representing the Departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1984-85 and Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1984-85.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to

the following matters:

Alteration of Subdivision Expenditure

In the examination of the Department of Aviation, the Committee was given information concerning the

reallocation of funds within a subdivision. The

rearrangement of funds in this particular instance did not involve additional expenditure and consequently the sub­ division did not appear in the Appropriation Bill.

However, there was considerable movement of funds between the items within that subdivision. Such

rearrangement of funds can occur through the process established by an amendment to the Audit Act 1901 which passed through the Parliament in 1984.

The provisions of the Audit Act now enable a

department to approach the Minister for Finance and seek his approval for transfers of funds between items within a subdivision. The Minister for Finance has approved this transfer and the Department of Aviation, pursuant to a Department of Finance directive (Estimates Memorandum

1985/10), included the alterations in the explanatory notes for the Additional Estimates. The Department of Aviation assisted the Committee by drawing its attention to these alterations.

At present, Parliament approves appropriations for specific line items within subdivisions on the understanding that the funds appropriated will be spent for the specific purposes outlined in the Explanatory notes.

129.

The Audit Act, as amended, now enables departments as soon as the appropriations have been approved, to seek permission without prior parliamentary scrutiny to alter the way in which funds will in fact be spent.

The Committee expresses concern that funds can be transferred within subdivisions in the Appropriation Bills without any parliamentary scrutiny prior to the expenditure of those funds.

Statement of Savings Expected in Annual Appropriations

During the hearings of Estimates Committee F, it became apparent that departments were referring to a Department of Finance Information Paper entitled "Statement of Savings expected in Annual Appropriations". Members of the Committee found it confusing when dealing with proposed additional expenditure that officers of departments referred to the savings made within their departments and yet the Committee did not have the information paper referred to it for consideration. The Committee recommends that the information paper known as "Statement of Savings expected in Annual Appropriations" be referred to estimates committees at the same time as the other documents concerning

additional estimates.

4. The Committee records its appreciation of the

assistance given by the Minister and the officers of the Departments concerned.

10 May 1985

(GEORGE GEORGES) Chairman

130.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

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■

■

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS NO. 1 THURSDAY , 18 APRIL 1985

1. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 1.55 pm in Senate Committee Rooms 1 and 2. The

Secretary took the Chair.

2. RESOLUTIONS OF THE SENATE: The Secretary reported the Resolutions of the Senate of 22 February 1985 relating to the appointment of the Committee, of 26 March 1985 relating to the appointment of members to the

Committee, and of 27 March 1985 relating to the

referral of Proposed Additional Expenditure for 1984-85.

3 . ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: The Secretary called for

nominations for the position of Chairman. Senator Townley proposed Senator Georges to be Chairman. There being no other nominations, Senator Georges was declared elected and took the Chair.

4. ORDER OF DEPARTMENTS: The Committee agreed that the Departments would be examined in the following order:

1. Department of Veterans' Affairs 2. Department of Transport 3 . Department of Aviation 4. Department of Territories 5. Department of Local Government and Administrative

Services.

5. PUBLIC MEETING: At 2.00 pm the Committee met in public session.

6. The Chairman declared the meeting open, reported the Resolution of the Senate of 27 March 1985, and made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the estimates.

7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 - DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS.

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. A.T. Gietzelt,

Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Veterans' Affairs -Mr D. Volker, Secretary

Ms J . McGirr, Deputy Chairman of Repatriation Commission

Dr J. Mould, Deputy Chief Director, Medical Services 133.

Mr J. Muir, First Assistant Secretary, Benefits

Mr B. O'Shannassy, Acting First Assistant

Secretary, Treatment Services

Mr A. Selleck, General Manager, Defence Service Homes Division

Mr J. Cosgrove, Assistant Secretary, Finance

Mr B. Godfrey, Assistant Secretary, Personnel and Establishments

Dr G. Brooks, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Departmental Health

Mr B. Hill, Assistant Secretary, Systems Services and Facilities

Mr L. Withers, Assistant Secretary, Secretariat and Policy Co-ordination

Mr M. Goldstein, Director, Hospital Resources

Mr R. Marshall, Acting Director, Vietnam Veterans' Counselling Service

Mr B. Partridge, Assistant Secretary, Employment Relations and Conditions Branch

Ms V. Wright, Acting Director, Office of

Australian War Graves

Mr P. Tedder, Assistant Director, Resources Management, Australian War Memorial

Mr P. James, Director, Policy Co-ordination

Mr M. McCartney, Acting Director, Pharmaceutical Services

Department of Finance -Mr A .J . Chapman, Senior Finance Officer, Grade 2, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 334, 690-692 (Document A) Division 984 (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Veterans' Affairs, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

134.

PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 - DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT.

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. A.T. Gietzelt,

Minister for Veterans' Affairs accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Transport -Mr M.J. Hutchinson, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Co-ordination Division

Mr P.B. Eccles, First Assistant Secretary, Maritime Safety Division

Mr I.R. Grigor, First Assistant Secretary, Sea Transport Policy Division

Mr T.R. Munyard, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Services Branch

Mr J . Walker, Senior Finance Officer, Finance and Services Branch

Ms F . Holthuyzen, Acting Assistant Secretary, Rail Branch

Mr D. McLennan, Acting Deputy Director, Bureau of Transport Economics

Mr G. Savas, Acting Secretary, Inter-State Commission

Mr 0. Rodda, Director Administration, Inter-State Commission

Department of Finance -Mr A.J. Chapman, Senior Finance Officer, Grade 2, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 664-667 (Document A) Divisions 972-974 (Document B)

The Committee concluded its considerations of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Transport, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 - DEPARTMENT OF AVIATION.

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. A.T. Gietzelt, Minister for Veterans' Affairs accompanied by the following officers:

135.

Department of Aviation -Mr K.H. Toakley, First Assistant Secretary, Resources Division

Mr R.C. O'Day, First Assistant Secretary, Flight Standards Division

Ms C. Goode, First Assistant Secretary, Management Services Division

Mr F.J. Adams, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Airways Division

Mr J.W. Huggett, Principal Advisor, Airports Division

Mr R . Elder, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Domestic Policy Division

Mr J. Wright, Assistant Secretary, Public Transport Branch

Mr D. Knox, Assistant Secretary, Airways Systems Branch

Mr M.J. Mayoh, Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch

Mr T. Grant, Assistant Secretary, Systems

Development and ADP Branch

Mr G . Broomfield, Director, Budget Section, Finance Branch

Mr G.T. O'Halloran, Director, Resources and Program Co-ordination Unit, Airports Division

Mr W. Eckhardt, Director, Resources and Co­ ordination Unit, Airways Division

Department of Finance -Mr A.J. Chapman, Senior Finance Officer, Grade 2, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Division for consideration:

Division 193 (Document A)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Aviation, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

136.

10. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 - DEPARTMENT OF TERRITORIES.

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. A . T . Gietzelt, Minister for Veterans' Affairs accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Territories:

Mr J.A. Turner, Acting Deputy Secretary

Mr M.C. Woods, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Secretariat Division

Mr W.D. Tyrrell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Resource Management Branch

Mr F.J. Brice, Acting First Assistant Secretary, External Territories and Legislation Division

Mr E. Davenport, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Development Division

Mr B. Dockrill, First Assistant Secretary, Transport and Technical Services Division

Mr R. Donnellan, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Parks and Conservation Division

Mr G . Fraser, First Assistant Secretary, Housing and Welfare Division

Mr R.H. Collis, Acting Commissioner for Housing

Mr A. R . Hedley, First Assistant Secretary, Community Affairs Division

Mr R.J. O'Connell, First Assistant Secretary, Management Services Division

Mr N.J. Morgan, Acting Assistant Secretary, Self-Government Branch

Ms J. Emerton, Acting Director, Islands Management and Operations

National Capital Development Commission:

Mr B.M. Browning, Secretary and Manager

Mr A. C . Phillips, Assistant Secretary, Program Management

Christmas Island Administration:

Mr J. Flynn, Acting Director

Department of Finance -Mr A.J. Chapman, Senior Finance Officer, Grade 2, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division. ,

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 620-628 (Document A) Division 959 (Document B )

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Territories, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

11. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1984-85 - DEPARTMENT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES.

In Attendance: Senator the Hon. A.T. Gietzelt, Minister for Veterans' Affairs accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Local Government and Administrative Services -Mr A.R. Palmer, Deputy Secretary

Mr W.D. Kennedy, Director of Property

Mr D. Rome, Assistant Secretary, Accommodation Operations Division, Property Directorate

Mr J.R. Clark, Senior Assistant Secretary, Overseas Property Office, Property Directorate

Mr B.E. Hinchcliffe, First Assistant Secretary, Transport and Storage Division

Mr A. A. Hillier, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division

Mr M. Wood, Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch, Management Division

Mr S. Wenger, Assistant Secretary, General and Personnel Services Branch, Management Division

Mr G. Hackett, Acting Director, Estimates and Funds Control Section, Finance Branch, Management Division

Department of Finance -Mr A.J. Chapman, Senior Finance Officer, Grade 2, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 130-132, 260 (Document A) Divisions 811-812 (Document B )

138.

12.

13.

14.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Local Government and Administrative Services, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional

information to the Committee.

ITEMS FOR COMMITTEES REPORT: The Committee met in private session at 5.35 pm to consider items for the Committee's Report. The Committee agreed that two items be included:

. Alteration of Subdivision Expenditure . Statement of Savings Expected in Annual Appropriations.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 5.42 pm.

ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Georges (Chairman), Senators Hearn, Reid, Richardson, Townley and Vanstone. Senators Boswell, Collard and Vigor also attended.

(GEORGE GEORGES) Chairman

139.