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Estimates - Senate Committees - Report together with Hansard record of proceedings - Committees A, B, C, D, E and F on Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the Year ending on 30 June 1986


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The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, E and F

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Estimates for year 1985-86 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for 1984-85

Presented and ordered to the printed 11 October 1985

Parliamentary Paper No. 509/1985

Parliamentary Paper No. 509/1985

The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia

SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A,B,C,D,E and F

Reports to the Senate on Departmental Estimates for 1985-86 and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for 1984-85

October 1985

The Commonwealth Government Printer Canberra 1986

© Commonwealth of Australia 1986 ISBN 0 644 04831 X

Printed by Authority by the Commonwealth Government Printer

CONTENTS PAGE

1. Resolution of the Senate (v )

2. Membership of Committees (vi)

3. Estimates Committee A Report 3

Reservation by Senator J.R. Short 28

Minutes of Proceedings 1985 10 September 1985 (2 meetings) 35

13 September 1985 45

19 September 1985 52

4 October 1985 57

9 October 1985 61

10 October 1985 65

4. Estimates Committee B Report 69

Minutes of Proceedings 1985 23 August 1985 75

10 September 1985 77

13 September 1985 80

18 September 1985 85

19 September 1985 88

9 October 1985 91

5. Estimates Committee C Report 97

Minutes of Proceedings 1985 23 August 1985 103

10 September 1985 105

13 September 1985 109

19 September 1985 112

20 September 1985 122

10 October 1985 125

6. Estimates Committee D Report 129

Documents tabled during public hearings 139 or provided with written replies Minutes of Proceedings 1985 12 September 1985 (2 meetings) 143

17 September 1985 148

1 October 1985 150

10 October 1985 154

7. Estimates Committee E Report 157

Minutes of Proceedings 1985 10 September 1985 171

12 September 1985 (2 meetings) 173

17 September 1985 179

18 September 1985 184

19 September 1985 187

8 October 1985 193

10 October 1985 194

(iii )

CONTENTS PAGE

Estimates Committee F Report 199

Minutes of Proceedings 1985 12 September 1985 207

17 September 1985 216

(iv)

RESOLUTION OF THE SENATE PASSED ON 23 AUGUST 1985

ESTIMATES COMMITTEES - REFERENCE OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND DEPARTMENTAL EXPENDITURE UNDER ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85: The Manager of Government Business (Senator Grimes), pursuant to Notice of Motion not objected to as a Formal Motion, moved -

(1) That the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1986 in relation to the Parliamentary Departments, the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1986 and the Particulars of Certain

Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the year ending on 30 June 1986 be referred to Estimates Committees for examination and report.

(2) That expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1985 be referred to Estimates Committees for examination and report prior to its consideration in Committee of the Whole.

(3) That the Committees consider Proposed Expenditure and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance in the Estimates Committee groupings agreed to be Resolution of the Senate of

22 February 1985*.

(4) That the Committees report to the Senate on or before Friday, 11 October 1985.

‘Estimate Committee Groups

Estimates Committee A Parliament Industry, Technology and Commerce Prime Minister and Cabinet Trade Science

Estimates Committee B Community Services Immigration and Ethnic Affairs Social Security Health

Estimates Committee C Finance Employment and Industrial Relations Treasury

Primary Industry Communications

Estimates Committee D Education Housing and Construction Sport, Recreation and

Tourism Arts, Heritage and Environment Aboriginal Affairs

Estimates Committee E Resources and Energy Attorney-General Special Minister of State Foreign Affairs Defence

Estimates Committee F Veterans' Affairs Transport Aviation

Territories Local Government and Administrative Services

(v)

MEMBERSHIP OF COMMITTEES

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

Senator Richardson (Chairman) Senator Cook 2 Senator Cooney Senator Hill Senator Jessop g

Senator Robert Ray Senator Short ^ Senator Sibraa

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Senator Colston76 (Chairman) Senator Aulich Senator Peter Bgume Senator Coates g Senator Morris Senator Puplick Senator Reynolds Senator Watson ^ Senator Zakharov

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

Senator Giles (Chairman) Senator Crowley Senator Elstob Senator Messner Senator Sheil Senator Walters

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

12

Senator Zakharoy^ (Chairman) Senator Aulich Senator Black Senator Sir John^arrick Senator Colston Senator MacGibbon Senator Teague

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

Senator Senator Senator Senator Senator Senator

Childs (Chairman) Boswell Brownhill Devlin Maguire Parer

Senator Georges j^hairman) Senator Foreman g(. Senator McKeirnan Senator Reid ^

Senator Richardson Senator Townley Senator Vanstone

1. Appointed 22 August 1985 8.

2. Discharged 22 August 1985 9. and re-appointed 10.

9 October 1985 11.

3. Discharged 19 September 1985 12. 4. Appointed 19 September 1985 13. and discharged 14.

9 October 1985 15.

5. Appointed 22 August 1985 16.

6. Appointed 22 August 1985 17.

7. Discharged 22 August 1985

Appointed 19 September 1985 Appointed 22 August 1985 Discharged 19 September 1985 Discharged 22 August 1985 Appointed 22 August 1985 Appointed 22 August 1985 Discharged 22 August 1985 Appointed 22 August 1985 Appointed 22 August 1985 Discharged 22 August 1985

(vi)

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee A has the honour to report to the ;Senate.

1. On 23 August 1985, the Senate referred to the Committee

the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for 1985-86, and

Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for

1984-85, relating to the Parliament, the Department of Industry,

Technology and Commerce, the Department of Science, the

Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, and the Department

of Trade.

2. The Committee has considered the estimates of the

departments, together with the departmental explanatory notes,

and has received evidence in relation to them from the President

of the Senate (Senator the Hon. Douglas McClelland), the Minister

for Industry, Technology and Commerce (Senator the Hon. John

Button), and officers of the Departments concerned. Copies of

the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence

taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the

Senate in connection with the Appropriation (Parliamentary

Departments) Bill 1985-86, the Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1985-86

and the Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1985-86. Written answers

provided subsequent to the Committee's hearings will be tabled in

the Senate and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the

Committee's proceedings.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

following matters arising from its consideration of the

estimates.

3.

Parliament's appropriations

The need for the Parliament to achieve greater autonomy

and independence from the Executive in regard to its operations

has been a matter of concern to Senators for many years, and has

been the subject of a number of committee reports.

The report which has had most effect to date in

improving the Parliament's position was that of the Select

Committee on Parliament's Appropriations and Staffing, a

committee established by the Senate in May 1980 to report on

Parliament's control of its own appropriations and staffing and

related matters. The committee presented its report to the

Senate in August 1981. Prior to 1981 the need for greater

financial autonomy for the Parliament had been highlighted by the

Committee appointed by Government Senators on Appropriation Bills

and the Ordinary Annual Services of the Government, which

reported in 1965, and by a number of reports from Estimates

Committee A (see, for example, the reports of October 1974, May

1978, November 1978, and October 1979).

The Committee appointed by Government Senators

recommended that the appropriations for the Parliament should not

be included in the Appropriation Bill for the ordinary annual

services of the Government. The committee pointed out that it

had been suggested that it was inconsistent with the concept of

the separation of powers and the supremacy of the Parliament for

the Parliament to be treated as an ordinary annual service of the

Government. Estimates Committee A in its report of October 1979

stated:

Any Parliament which claims, or aspires to,

accountability of an Executive Government to the

Parliament, must make such arrangements for its own

resources and facilities as are necessary to achieve

this constitutional relationship, in practice as well

as in theory.

4.

The Senate Select Committee on Parliament's

Appropriations and Staffing made a number of recommendations.

Among them were that:

. the Senate establish a standing committee with

responsibility to consider the proposed estimates and

staffing arrangements of the Senate;

. the appropriations for the Parliament be removed from

the ordinary annual services of the Government and

included in a separate Parliamentary Appropriation

Bill;

. all items of expenditure administered by Executive

departments on behalf of the Parliament be brought

together in the Parliamentary Appropriation Bill;

. the President seek the transfer of responsibility for

the administration of functions affecting Senators'

entitlements and facilities from Executive departments

to the Department of the Senate;

. the Presiding Officers, separately or jointly as the

case may be, be vested with control over staffing and

' terms and conditions of employment, by means of an

amendment of the Public Service Act.

The Senate, by resolution, adopted the conclusions and

recommendations of the select committee in November 1981.

As a direct result of its adoption of the select

committee's recommendations the Senate, in 1982, established the

Standing Committee on Appropriations and Staffing, and the

President commenced negotiations on the transfer to the Senate of

administrative responsibility for functions relating to Senators'

entitlements and facilities then administered by Executive

departments.

5.

The then Government, for its part, agreed to the

introduction of a separate Parliamentary Appropriation Bill,

although limited only to those functions administered by the

parliamentary departments. The Government also agreed that the

Bill would not be treated as a Bill for the ordinary annual

services of the Government. Subsequent amendments to the Public

Service Act vested in the Presiding Officers the power to create,

classify and abolish offices and to make appointments below

permanent head level.

The first Parliamentary Appropriation Bill introduced

was for the 1982-83 financial year, and a limited range of

functions were transferred from Executive departments to Senate

administration in 1982 and 1983, for example, responsibility for

Senators' badges of office, and the supply to Senators of the

Commonwealth Record.

The Standing Committee on Appropriations and Staffing

was given terms of reference by the Senate which, in relation to

the Senate's appropriations, required it to inquire into

proposals for the estimates and the additional estimates, to

determine the amounts for inclusion in the relevant Parliamentary

Appropriation Bill, and to report to the Senate upon its

determinations prior to the consideration by the Senate of that

Bill. The estimates for the Senate, as finally agreed by the

Committee, are forwarded to the Minister for Finance for

inclusion in the Bill.

In the light of this background, the Committee was

disturbed, during its examination of the estimates of the

Department of the Senate, to be told by the President of the

Senate that the Government had:

(1) sought to vary the agreed arrangements for discussion

of the parliamentary estimates;

(2) set outlays and staffing targets for each of the

parliamentary departments; and

6.

(3) suggested a global, or total, provision for the

Parliament, with the Presiding Officers to have the

ability to adjust the distribution of the total between

the various parliamentary departments prior to their

inclusion in the Appropriation (Parliamentary

Departments) Bill.

(The President's statement is appended to this report.)

The Committee was also disturbed to note, from the

latest annual report of the Standing Committee on Appropriations

and Staffing, tabled on 10 September 1985, that the Government

had confirmed its decision not to continue with the transfer to

the Parliament of parliamentary-related functions presently

administered by Executive departments, apart from the limited

range of functions already transferred in 1982 and 1983.

It would appear from the President's statement and from

the Appropriations and Staffing Committee's annual report that

the Government is seeking to reverse the trend of recent years by

imposing limits on the Parliament which have the practical effect

of circumscribing its administrative responsibilities and of

treating it as a Department of State - at least insofar as

staffing and financial matters are concerned. This impression is

reinforced- by two other recent events.

The first is that the Standing Committee on

Appropriations and Staffing, after considering correspondence

from the Minister for Finance to the President concerning the

1985-86 estimates, saw the need (as reported in its latest annual

report) to reaffirm its independent role in determining the

estimates of the Senate, and to place on record its view that

while it had endeavoured to comply with Government budgetary

policy as far as was practicable, this should not be interpreted

as the committee accepting direction from the Government in

relation to the determination of Senate estimates.

7.

The second is that, according to the President's

statement to this Committee, the Government appears to have

discriminated against the parliamentary departments by refusing

to include the May 1985 'anomalies' salary increase in their

estimates, despite a number of representations by the Presiding

Officers, while it apparently did include the increase in the

estimates of all but two of its own (i.e. 26 out of 28)

departments.

The Committee is aware of the argument that the

Executive has a constitutional obligation to control the

expenditure of public money. However, the Executive controls

only those expenditures which have been previously voted by the

Parliament, and the Executive is then accountable for its control

of such expenditures to the Parliament. It is the Parliament

which is responsible to the people. It is not correct,

therefore, to suggest that the Government needs to maintain

control over those funds required by the Parliament to fulfil its

role. The Government may properly seek to influence debate on

the appropriate level of such funds, but this should not mean

control.

As has been pointed out by the Select Committee on

Appropriations and Staffing a large number of parliaments in

other countries - both those with Westminster-type systems and

those without - have control over their own budgets, including

the United Kingdom Parliament, the Canadian Parliament and the

United States Congress. There would appear to be no reason why

the Australian Parliament should be treated any differently: if

it is to properly fulfil its constitutional role, the Parliament

must be able to frame and control its own budget.

The Senate already has a mechanism in place to consider

and properly determine its financial requirements. This

mechanism is the Standing Committee on Appropriations and

Staffing - an all-party committee of nine members established

specifically to determine the Senate's estimates and additional

estimates (if any). When the committee was set up, the Leader of

8.

the Government in the Senate (or another Senate Minister as his

delegate) was included in the membership ex officio to ensure

that the Government's budgetary policy would be given due . . *

consideration by the committee . The Government also retains the

option of seeking to amend a Parliamentary Appropriation Bill, if

necessary, in the Parliament.

The success of the Senate Standing Committee on

Appropriations and Staffing in fulfilling its role may be judged

from the fact that in the three years of its existence the Senate

estimates as determined by it have always been included unaltered

in the relevant Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill.

It would be a considerable downgrading of the role of the

committee if it was to be required to meet Government-imposed

outlays 'targets'. It would be an equal downgrading of the roles

of the President and Speaker if they were required, despite their

independent roles as defined in the Public Service Act, to meet

Government-imposed staffing 'targets'. And if the situation were

ever to arise where the Standing Committee on Appropriations and

Staffing determined estimates which were then altered by the

Government before inclusion in the Appropriation (Parliamentary

Departments) Bill, it could be asked: what would be the value of

a separate parliamentary Bill if the Parliament was not able to

determine its content?

The Parliament is not a Department of State. There

would seem little doubt that a responsible but autonomous

Parliament would take into consideration the relevant expenditure

and staffing policies of the Government of the day in framing its

estimates and that, in practice, those policies would be broadly

respected. The Parliament demonstrates its public accountability

by tabling explanations of the estimates and the annual reports

of each of its departments. These are open to public scrutiny

* The members of the committee are the President as chairman, the Leader of the Government in the Senate (or another Senate Minister as his delegate), three other Government Senators, the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, and three other

non-Government Senators. The non-Government Senators presently include a Senator from the Australian Democrats and an Independent Senator.

9.

and are also examined by this Committee. In addition, the Senate

Standing Committee on Appropriations and Staffing also tables its

own report on the Senate's estimates. That Executive departments

account in similar ways has come about largely through the

demands of the Parliament and, in relation to detailed

explanations of departmental estimates, through the specific

demands of Senate Estimates Committees.

In relation to the Government's proposal of a global

figure for the parliamentary departments this would, in the

Committee's view, result in increased Government domination of

the Parliament, by reducing the independence of the two Houses of

Parliament as provided for in section 1 of the Constitution. The

Government's proposal would have the Presiding Officers involved

in deciding the allocation and reallocation of proposed funds

between separate and autonomous departments. Apart from the

constitutional problems which could arise were either House to

involve itself in the internal affairs of the other, the two

Houses would inevitably have different priorities which would

make any reallocation difficult in practical terms. The

Committee believes that each House should have total control over

its own appropriations and be able to determine its own

priorities. The Presiding Officers together should have total

control over the appropriations of the three service departments.

The Committee has canvassed the issue of Parliament's

appropriations in some detail because it is concerned that the

progress achieved to date in obtaining a limited measure of

autonomy for the Parliament in terms of its appropriations and

staffing should be maintained. If anything, the achievements of

the past few years should be seen only as a beginning.

Specifically in relation to the appropriations of the

Senate, and to put beyond doubt the Senate's intentions when it

set up the Standing Committee on Appropriations and Staffing, the

Committee recommends that the Senate resolve as follows:

10.

That the estimates of expenditure for the Senate to be

included in the Appropriation (Parliamentary

Departments) Bill shall be those determined by the

Standing Committee on Appropriations and Staffing.

Financial year comparisons

The Committee took particular note of a point made by

the President in his statement that it was not always realistic

to make direct percentage comparisons between departmental

expenditures from one financial year to the next, because of the

large fluctuations which can occur in parliamentary activity from

year to year.

For example, Senate expenditure in 1984-85 in a number

of areas was significantly lower than normal because of the

hiatus in activity in the period late October 1984 to late

February 1985 resulting from the 1 December general elections.

However, a 'normal' level of activity was expected in the current

financial year.

Unless percentage increases based on a previous year's

expenditure take into account such fluctuations, the Senate as a

whole could be financially disadvantaged. The Committee makes

the additional point that the Department of the Senate is a

relatively small organisation, whose expenditures are dictated by

the requirements of the Senate and its committees. An unusual

major expenditure, such as that incurred through implementation

of the information systems strategic plan, or the unexpected

costs resulting from establishment of the Select Committees on

the Conduct of a Judge and Allegations concerning a Judge, can

equally distort direct year to year comparisons.

11.

Senate information systems

The Committee notes that the supply of microcomputers

to Senators in accordance with the Senate information systems

strategic plan has commenced, with the microcomputers being

installed progressively in Senators’ Parliament House offices.

The Committee notes also that the Standing Committee on

Appropriations and Staffing has determined that before any

microcomputers are purchased for installation in 1985-86, there

will be an evaluation of those installed in 1984-85 to determine

how effectively they have met stated user requirements.

The Committee was told that the Senate strategic plan

provides not only for a phased introduction of the microcomputers

but also a phased introduction of the uses to which the systems

will be put, commencing with the most commonly-demanded

application, namely word processing. This was to avoid going too

far too quickly, and thus risking the success of the plan, and to

avoid outstripping the available training and back-up resources.

The overall objective was to work up to full usage of the systems

between now and the move to the new Parliament House, when a

network capability would become available.

The Committee commends the thorough and methodical

approach being taken by the Senate in this area - where all too

often in the public service and in the broader community

inadequate assessment of requirements and hasty implementation

have resulted in failure - and recommends the Senate approach as

a model worth emulation.

On the question of Australian content, the Committee

was advised by Senate departmental officers as follows:

We are very concerned about the Australian content of

our information systems development. We were very

aware that the tender to provide word processing

12.

microcomputers for senators would be very difficult for

Australian companies to meet. As a result, being very

conscious that as much as possible should be done, we

have attempted to develop a strategy which will,

wherever possible, involve Australian companies.

The Committee was told that this strategy involved

regular communication with the Australian Computer Equipment

Manufacturers' Association (ACEMA). This included as much

advance notice as possible of future developments to enable

Australian companies to gear up to tender at the relevant time,

as well as the provision of information on current activities.

The President made available to the Committee a letter from the

ACEMA President which commended the Senate's Australian content

strategy. The Committee supports the positive approach being

taken in this area.

There was one matter of concern to the Committee in

relation to the supply of information systems equipment which

arose during the examination of the Senate estimates. The

Committee was concerned that despite the opportunity to realise

long-term savings by ensuring maximum compatibility and

efficiency in the use of funds, the Government had not so far

agreed to transfer responsibility for the supply of information

systems equipment in Senators' electorate offices from the

Department of the Special Minister of State to the Senate. The

President informed the Committee that at present his

responsibility for the supply of such equipment was limited to

offices within Parliament House.

In response to Committee questioning, Senate

departmental officers indicated a concern that unless there was a

co-ordinated approach to the supply of equipment in Parliament

House and electorate offices, then by the time of the move to the

new Parliament House there could be 'a multiplicity' of systems

in electorate offices which could be incompatible with those in

Parliament House, as a number of Senators (and Members) were

already buying systems for their electorate offices out of their

13.

own resources. Compatibility was essential because the intention

was to directly link the two offices through microcomputers in

each. Parliamentary responsibility for equipment in both offices

would enable distinct Commonwealth savings in terms of purchases

under one tender arrangement and the provision of common

maintenance and support services.

Naturally the supply of the second system will depend

on the future availability of funds. However, in the meantime,

parliamentary responsibility for the provision of equipment to

both offices would enable Senators and Members to choose in which

office to place their first system to ensure that maximum

benefits are derived from it.

The Committee urges the Government to consider the

matter further. It is the departments supporting the Senate and

House of Representatives which are most familiar with Senators'

and Members' user requirements and with planned developments in

information systems within the Parliament, and it is these

departments which are thus best placed to provide the most

cost-effective solutions for the information systems requirements

of electorate as well as Parliament House offices.

Commonwealth Record

In its report of October 1984 the Committee noted that

$50,000 was being sought for the purchase of the Commonwealth

Record for Senators in 1984-85, and that under current guidelines

Senators were each entitled to take up to 10 annual subscriptions

for their own use and for the use of selected constituents. Of

the amount sought, nearly $48,000 was expended.

This financial year the amount being sought for

purchase of the Commonwealth Record for Senators is $90,000,

mainly because the cost of each annual subscription has risen

from $146 to $220.

14.

In its 1984 report the Committee asked, in view of the

rising cost of subscriptions then, whether a reduced entitlement

for Senators - perhaps only two subscriptions per Senator -

should be considered. The Committee suggested a review of the

situation by the President.

The President told the Committee that he had canvassed

the possibility of a reduction with the Standing Committee on

Appropriations and Staffing in the context of determining the

1985-86 estimates, but the general feeling had been against any

change. Consequently he had not taken the matter further.

The Committee remains of the view that while it is

proper for the Senate to pay for subscriptions for the use of

Senators, the additional entitlement to take out subscriptions

for selected constituents is no longer warranted in view of the

costs involved - particularly as the Commonwealth Record is not a

parliamentary publication. Because of the latest increase in

subscription costs, it requests the Standing Committee on

Appropriations and Staffing, through the President, to further

consider the matter when next it considers the Senate estimates.

Program budgeting

The 1985-86 estimates saw the commencement of a pilot

project in which three Executive departments prepared and

presented their explanatory notes in a program budgeting format.

These were the Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce,

whose estimates were examined by this Committee, and the

Departments of Finance and Employment and Industrial Relations,

whose estimates were examined by Estimates Committee C.

Preliminary parliamentary input into the pilot project,

mainly in relation to the format of the documentation to be

provided to Parliament, was provided by the Standing Committee on

15.

Finance and Government Operations in a report to the Senate in

May. That committee's inquiry arose from a recommendation by

this Committee last year.

The major documents available to the Committee during

its examination of the estimates of the Department of Industry,

Technology and Commerce were:

(a) Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the service of

the year ending on 30 June 1986 (Appropriation Bill

(No. 1) 1985-86);

(b) Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect

of the year ending on 30 June 1986 (Appropriation Bill

(No. 2) 1985-86);

(c) Statement of Heads of Expenditure and the amounts

charged thereto pursuant to section 36A of the Audit

Act (Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the

Minister for Finance);

(d) Departmental Explanatory Notes;

(e) Portfolio Program Statements 1985-86; and

(f) Portfolio Program Estimates 1985-86 (Budget Paper

No. 6).

The first three documents presented the estimates of

the department in the traditional appropriations format of

divisions, sub-divisions and items, with expenditure classified

under salaries, administrative expenses, other services and in

several miscellaneous categories. The last three documents

presented the estimates of the department - plus detailed

explanations in the cases of documents (d) and (e) - in a program

budgeting format.

16.

The two presentations serve different immediate

purposes: the traditional approach is more input-oriented

whereas the program budgeting approach concentrates more on

outputs. However, the overall purpose of both is and must

continue to be to facilitate parliamentary scrutiny and control

of expenditure.

Each presentation has its particular strengths, but on

balance the Committee sees most potential for effective scrutiny

and control in the program budgeting format. The 1 stewardship1

emphasis of scrutiny under the traditional format is becoming

more automated and subject to control techniques such as cash

limiting. In the Committee's view the Parliament, with scarce

resources of time and personnel, should concentrate more on

performance and on the results achieved by the appropriations it

votes. Is value for money being achieved? To what extent are

the programs for which funds are being sought achieving their

objectives? Is the level of resources being sought the minimum

which will efficiently but effectively achieve the objective?

Questions such as these can best be answered through the

presentation of information on a program basis.

The presentation of information on such a basis must

include a description of the program, its objectives and relevant

financial information, but for the scrutiny process to be most

effective performance measures or indicators (and, where

applicable, operational indicators) must also be developed and

included in the information presented.

The Committee was handicapped in its examination of the

estimates of the Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce

on this occasion because it had available to it few measures of

performance - most of which, admittedly, can only be developed

over a period of time - and only a limited basis of comparison

with the 1984-85 financial year. Because of the lack of

appropriate comparative material, the Committee was not able to

17.

examine resource shifts between programs, or performance against

pre-set targets. However, the Committee realises that these are

problems of transition and should be considerably less next year.

In relation to performance indicators, the Committee

was pleased to note commitments by the department, at nearly all

programs or sub-programs in the Explanatory Notes, to examine the

development and/or utilisation of relevant indicators. It looks

forward to seeing such indicators in the documentation provided

for the 1986-87 financial year.

The Committee noted a number of discrepancies between

amounts in the department's Explanatory Notes and in its

Portfolio Program Statement. These are most probably a

consequence of last-minute adjustments resulting from the

conversion to program budgeting; however such discrepancies

should not appear next year unless accompanied by suitable

explanations. The Committee also experienced a little difficulty

in relating Explanatory Note break-ups to the relevant

description in the Portfolio Program Statement, and would be

assisted in future by appropriate cross-referencing in the

Explanatory Notes.

Apart from the absence of performance measures, the

Committee was reasonably satisfied with the format and

presentation of the Explanatory Notes and the Portfolio Program

Statement, although some fine-tuning may become apparent as the

Committee's familiarity with program budgeting grows. The

Committee does not feel that it can make a reasoned judgement on

the content of the documents at this stage without further

experience. It sees the development of the Explanatory Notes and

Portfolio Program Statement for the department as an evolutionary

process.

However, the Committee is sufficiently impressed with

the program budgeting presentation to recommend a continuation of

the pilot program and its extension to other departments. In

making this recommendation the Committee is aware that there are

18.

important issues which, sooner or later, will need to be

addressed by the Senate if program budgeting becomes the Public

Service norm. These issues include:

(1) an inevitable increase in involvement of Estimates

Committees in making judgements on policy matters, as

various programs are assessed against their objectives;

(2) a shift in the emphasis of Estimate Committee

examinations from proposed to actual expenditures (i.e.

a shift in emphasis from consideration of the current

year's estimates to a consideration of the previous

year's expenditure); and, in the light of points (1)

and (2),

(3) the need for a re-examination of the role and methods

of operation of Senate Estimates Committees: will the

current process of part-time examination of estimates

by committees staffed with part-time officers be

adequate to an effective scrutiny of the wide range of

programs within the various government departments and

authorities?

In addition, the Parliament as a whole may need to

re-examine the way it appropriates funds. The presentation of

information in a program budgeting format, as in the Explanatory

Notes, is not compatible with the current presentation of the

estimates in the Appropriation Bills which the Parliament

considers. Should, then, the format of the Appropriation Bills

be changed, with funds being appropriated on a program basis? In

answering such a question, close consideration would need to be

given both to the constitutional issues involved (the powers of

the Senate with respect to Money Bills) and to the existing

agreement on the content of the two Appropriation Bills.

To effectively examine a program, all relevant

expenditures must be included. About two-thirds of expenditure

from the Consolidated Revenue Fund is from 'special'

19.

appropriations, i.e. appropriations of an on-going nature

authorised by the Parliament in separate Acts. Only about

one-third of expenditure is authorised by the annual

Appropriation Acts. The programs presented to the Committee in

the Explanatory Notes and the Portfolio Program Statement of the

Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce included relevant

expenditure authorised by 1 special' Appropriation Acts. To what

extent should Estimates Committees be examining these?

There are, thus, a number of important questions which

need to be considered in connection with the general move toward

program budgeting, but that is not to say that the move should be

abandoned. The Standing Committee on Finance and Government

Operations has undertaken to review the reports of Estimates

Committees A and C on their examination of the estimates of the

three departments involved in the pilot study of program

budgeting, and to report the results of that review to the

Senate. In the view of Estimates Committee A the Standing

Committee should, in its review, also address itself to the

longer-term implications for the Senate and the Parliament of the

move toward program budgeting.

Australian Bicentennial Authority

The Commonwealth Government confirmed in 1983 that it

would provide $166 million (1982 prices) for a national program

of activities to mark the 200th anniversary of European

settlement in Australia. Of this amount $118 million was to be

appropriated directly to the Authority for the National Program

and $48 million to the Department of the Prime Minister and

Cabinet for the Commonwealth/State Bicentennial Commemorative

Program. Additional amounts are being contributed by State

Governments and private enterprise. Because of the large amounts

of money involved, the Committee examined the estimates and

activities of both the Authority and the Department to try and

20.

ascertain how effectively the money was being spent. This

examination commenced on 13 September and continued at hearings

on 19 September, 4 October and 9 October.

As a result of detailed questioning by members of the

Committee a large amount of material relating to the Authority in

particular is now on the public record. The evidence gathered by

the Committee raised a number of concerns, some of which have

already been the subject of questions and debate in the Parliament.

The Committee's first concern relates to the general

administration of the Authority. Of the proposed total

expenditure of the Authority of $22,247,036 in 1985-86, an amount

of $9,491,036 has been budgeted for general administration. The

Authority has about 130 staff (and has budgeted for 139 staff

years this financial year). In preceding years the bulk of costs

have been administrative: the Prime Minister told the House of

Representatives on 8 October that up to June 1985 the Authority

had outlaid $18.9 million on salaries and administration and only

$3.8 million on programs. While it could be expected that the

major costs of the Authority would initially be administrative,

and that the program content would increase as projects got

underway, the Committee is nevertheless of the opinion that the

current administrative and staffing costs of the Authority are

disproportionate to the remaining expenditure on programs.

The Committee also established to its own satisfaction

that some of the administrative decisions of the Authority appear

to have been extravagant. The payment of nearly $500,000 to the

former Chief Executive, Dr D.P. Armstrong, upon the termination

of his contract, is the most dramatic example of such

extravagance. Of the total amount of $488,766 paid to Dr

Armstrong, $122,573 was for superannuation, long

service/recreation leave and minimum notice of four months. The

Committee accepts Dr Armstrong's entitlement to this amount, as

has the Solicitor-General in his legal opinion tabled in the

House of Representatives on 8 October.

21.

The Committee does not believe, however, that the total

of the remaining amount of $366,193 can be justified. This

amount comprised $55,156 for eight months' additional notice,

$71,037 for superannuation which would have been received if Dr

Armstrong had continued in employment until 30 June 1990, and

$240,000 compensation for 1 restraints and releases' such as

mutual releases from future action on past and future

obligations, restraints on entering into competitive employment,

restraints on speaking to the media and restraints on disruptive

contacts with staff.

The Chairman of the Authority, Mr Reid, in evidence to

the Committee on 4 October (Hansard, p.962) confirmed that three

major reasons for the large settlement were that the Prime

Minister wanted Dr Armstrong dismissed without reasons, that he

wanted it done quickly and that he wanted it done quietly.

Mr Reid added a fourth reason: Dr Armstrong had in nearly six

years with the Authority accumulated a wide range of contacts and

knowledge and he did not want Dr Armstrong to utilise those

contacts and knowledge in opposition to the Authority. It should

be noted that in Mr Reid's opinion there were no sustainable

grounds to warrant the termination of Dr Armstrong's employment

(Hansard, 4/10/85, pp.958-59 and 961).

On the basis of Dr Armstrong's letter of appointment, a

copy of which was presented to the Committee on 4 October, there

does not appear to be any legal obligation on the Authority to

have offered any part of the additional $366,193. The

Solicitor-General, in paragraph 10 of his opinion, draws the same

conclusion. Nevertheless, on Mr Reid's evidence there would

appear to be some grounds for an offer of additional

compensation. However, the amount agreed to is, in the

Committee's view, excessive.

The Committee questions the reasons given, in

particular, for the compensation component of $240,000, namely to

prevent possible legal action by Dr Armstrong and to restrain him

22.

from various activities such as setting up in opposition to the

Authority. These appear to the Committee to be insufficient and

perhaps even of doubtful validity.

Another example of both apparent extravagance and

administrative inefficiency came out in evidence to the Committee

on 9 October. A senior officer of the Authority was employed in

February 1981 on the basis of a contract which included

membership of a non-contributory superannuation scheme in which

the employer contribution was 25 per cent of salary. Membership

of the scheme had been offered to the senior employee by Dr

Armstrong, as the Chief Executive. Introduction of the scheme

was subsequently opposed by the Department of Finance, and

discussions with that Department on a superannuation scheme for

the Authority continued until 1984 . The scheme was not offered

to any other employee. In 1984 a new scheme involving a 5 or 7^

per cent employee contribution and a 15 per cent employer

contribution was established. In the intervening period the only

superannuation cover available was through the Commonwealth

Superannuation Scheme, which only attracted some 10-15 employees

of the Authority; other staff were not covered at all by

superannuation.

The Committee was told by Mr W.C. Fairbanks, General

Manager, Finance and Management Services, that the senior officer

agreed in 1984 to changes in the terms of his employment contract

which included membership of the new superannuation scheme. Mr

Fairbanks said that the senior officer had in the period to

August 1984 accumulated a superannuation entitlement of $50,000

under the contract of employment entered into by him with Dr

Armstrong, which contract had been ratified by the Board.

Because the new scheme was less generous, the Authority had also

agreed to pay the senior officer a further amount of $15,000 by

way of compensation for the change in his superannuation

arrangements. The total amount of $65,000 thus accumulated was

then paid into a separate superannuation fund for the senior

officer's benefit.

23.

In the course of his evidence, Mr Fairbanks also

advised that the senior officer's employment with the Authority

had been terminated by the former Chief Executive, Dr Armstrong,

in August this year. He said that the senior officer had

originally been offered an employment contract which provided for

a three month period of notice. Through a typographical error

this had been shown as one month in the original contract, but

this discrepancy had been rectified when the contract was revised

in 1984. However, in terminating the senior officer's

employment, Dr Armstrong had stipulated that the senior officer

should have a six month period of notice. This is due to end on

10 February 1986. Reasons for the termination of the senior

officer's contract were not given. Mr Fairbanks did say that the

senior officer would not be entitled to any additional benefits

other than long service leave. He said the senior officer wished

to remain an employee of the Authority and was presently

discussing the matter with the acting Chairman, Mr Utz.

A third example concerns the number of overseas trips

by Authority staff and members of the Board. In 1984-85 there

were 20 such trips undertaken at a cost of $138,365. So far

eight overseas visits are proposed for 1985-86 and another 13 for

subsequent years.

According to a statement by the Prime Minister in the

House of Representatives on 8 October there have been 49 overseas

trips by Authority members since 21 January 1980 - all but four

of which were first class. While some visits may have been

appropriate the Committee is not satisfied that all of them were,

or that necessary structures were developed to set limits to

their use. The Committee strongly questions the need for so many

overseas visits to organise an Australian celebration.

The above are three examples which indicate to the

Committee that closer oversight of the management and methods of

the Authority is required. The Committee believes that there

should be a thorough review by the Government of the operations

of the Authority.

24.

One of the major concerns to come out of the

Committee's inquiry relates to the supervisory and liaison role

of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet since the

Prime Minister became responsible for the Authority at the end of

last year. Officers from the Department claimed that they had

not been provided with sufficient information from the Authority

to enable the Department to effectively perform its role. They

itemised a number of specific requests to the Authority in

evidence on 9 October. Officers from the Authority claimed to

have provided sufficient replies to all requests received from

the Department. Mr Fairbanks, for example, stated on 9 October

that of four requests for information in the period May to

August, the Authority had provided eleven replies, although some

of these had been delayed.

In earlier evidence to the Committee on 4 October, the

Chairman of the Authority, Mr Reid, said that the letter by which

Dr Armstrong was appointed, which was dated 12 October 1979, was

attached to the agenda of the first board meeting of the

Authority in February 1980 and a copy of the agenda and

attachment had been sent to the Department of Administrative

Services, then the relevant administering department.

The Deputy Secretary of the Department of the Prime

Minister and Cabinet, Mr A.D. Rose, told the Committee on

9 October that files and records relating to the Authority

originally with the Department of Administrative Services had

subsequently been transferred to the Department of Home Affairs,

then to the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Environment, and

then, late in 1984 or early 1985, to the Department of the Prime

Minister and Cabinet, in accordance with changes in ministerial

responsibility.

Mr Rose said the Department of the Prime Minister and

Cabinet was unaware that both the agenda and the letter relating

to Dr Armstrong were in its possession until within the last two

weeks. He said that both the agenda and the letter relating to

25.

Dr Armstrong (which were found on separate files) had been found

with the assistance of Mr Fairbanks.

In an answer to a question without notice in the House

of Representatives on 10 October the Prime Minister referred to a

memorandum on this matter received by him earlier that day from

the acting Secretary of the Department of the Prime Minister and

Cabinet, Mr E.M.W. Visbord. The Prime Minister quoted Mr Visbord

as saying that he deeply regretted that the Prime Minister had

been 'incorrectly and incompletely1 advised by the Department on

the availability of the letter relating to Dr Armstrong's

appointment. Mr Visbord said that following oral advice from an

officer of the Authority on 27 September that a copy of the

letter had been sent to the Department of Administrative Services

with a Board agenda, a search of the 800 odd files received from

the Department of Home Affairs (sic] was initiated and copies of

the document were located on 1 October. The officer in charge of

the Bicentennial Branch became aware of this on 8 October.

Mr Visbord concluded: 1 Neither you nor your Office were informed

that these papers had been located on the Department's file until

this morning'.

The Committee is also of the view that the Department

should have been more aware of the implications when details of

the final payment to Dr Armstrong were made available to it and

the Prime Minister, and should have warned the Prime Minister of

possible consequences relating to that payment. In particular,

in the Committee's view, the Department should have sought an

opinion from the Solicitor-General on the compensation component

of the payment as soon as it became aware of its existence.

The Committee considers that the Prime Minister has to

accept the ministerial responsibility for the Australian

Bicentennial Authority. Nevertheless he was obviously not kept

fully informed by his Department. The evidence indicates that

officers of the Department displayed gross incompetence in their

handling of this issue.

26.

Finally, the Committee notes that the objects of the

Authority are not spelt out in the Act establishing it. This is,

in the Committee's view, a serious omission. Appropriate

accountability is not possible unless the performance of an

organisation can be assessed against its objectives, and these

should be clearly set out in the legislation by which the

organisation comes into existence. It may well be that current

criticism of the Authority concerning its plans for 1988 would

have been considerably less if clearly-defined aims had been

specified for the Authority in the legislation by which it was

established.

GENERAL

4. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the

assistance given by the President, the Minister for Industry

Technology and Commerce and the officers of the various

departments and authorities who appeared before the Committee.

(Graham Richardson) Chairman

27.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

Reservation

SENATOR J.R. SHORT

I wish to add the following reservation to the Report

of the Committee in relation to the penultimate paragraph of the

section on the Australian Bicentennial Authority:

to the Committee indicated that the Prime Minister, as the person

with Ministerial responsibility for the Australian Bicentennial

Authority, also demonstrated a lack of Ministerial competence

through his failure:

(a) to ensure that he was adequately informed and advised

on the operations of the Authority and on the matters

surrounding the resignation of Dr Armstrong; and

(b) to take necessary corrective action.

I agree with the criticism of the Department of the

Prime Minister and Cabinet expressed in that paragraph.

However, I am of the view that the evidence presented

(J.R. Short) Senator for Victoria

28.

APPENDIX

A U S T R A L IA N S E N A T E C A N B E R R A A C T .

STATEMENT BY PRESIDENT TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A * 1

I wish to make a statement in relation to the estimates for

the Department of the Senate. In February this year the Minister

for Finance wrote to the Speaker and myself concerning the

Parliament's 1985-86 estimates. The Minister's letter raised

three matters which were subsequently considered by the Senate

Standing Committee on Appropriations and Staffing. In his letter the Minister:

(1) referred to a change in the arrangements for discussion

of the estimates between the Presiding Officers and the

Government, and in the case of the Senate, between

myself and the Government;

(2) set outlays and staffing targets for each of the

parliamentary departments; and

(3) suggested a global, or total, provision for the

Parliament, with the Speaker and I to have the ability

to adjust the distribution of the total between the

various parliamentary departments prior to their

estimates being included in the Appropriation

(Parliamentary Departments) Bill.

In relation to the Senate, and at the direction of the

Senate Appropriations and Staffing Committee, I informed the

Minister for Finance on 28 February 1985 of the role of that

Committee in the determination of the Senate estimates; of my

role, as established by the Public Service Acts (Amendment) Act

1982, in determining staffing levels; and of the Committee's view

that a global provision for the parliamentary departments was

29.

neither appropriate nor practical, a view which I personally

support and which I have conveyed to the Minister on several

occasions.

The outlays targets set by the Minister for the

parliamentary departments were all considerably less than the

bids of those departments. In the case of the Senate, the

Minister's target figure was $8.6 million - which was $641,000

less than the Senate departmental bid. Fully aware of the

Government's call for restraint, the Appropriations and Staffing

Committee at my request reviewed the Department of the Senate's

expenditure proposals and made reductions totalling $553,000. It

finally determined the amount of the Senate's 1985-86 estimates

at $8,688 million - an amount within $88,000 of the Minister's

target figure.

In the course of its deliberations on the estimates on

18 April the Committee unanimously reaffirmed its independent

role, as established by the Senate, in determining the estimates

of the Senate. It placed on record its view that while it had

endeavoured to comply with Government budgetary policy as far as

was practicable, this should not be interpreted in any way as the

Committee accepting direction from the Government in relation to

the determination of the Senate's estimates.

Since then a 2% to 4% 'anomalies' salary increase was

awarded to the Commonwealth Public Service, and this has flowed

on to the parliamentary departments. In accordance with normal

estimating practice, I expected the amounts for each department -

about $100,000 in the case of the Senate - to be included in the

relevant departmental estimates, and this was indicated to the

Minister for Finance at a meeting on 26 June and subsequently in

correspondence on 2 July, 18 July and 9 August prior to the

Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill being finalised.

I again urged the Minister to reconsider and include the increase

in a telegram sent on 14 August - a telegram with which the

Speaker concurred.

30.

However, the Government has not included these award amounts

in the estimates of the parliamentary departments - although I

understand it has included the 'anomalies' increase in the

estimates of most of its own departments. Indeed the advice

given to me is that all but two of the 28 executive departments

had the increase included in their estimates as presented to

Parliament in the relevant Appropriation Bill.

In relation to the parliamentary departments, the Minister,

in a letter dated 10 July, said he considered there was scope to

fund the 'anomalies' increase within the total funding provided

for the Parliament. In relation to the Senate, I replied on

18 July pointing out that:

. a comparison with 1984-85 salaries expenditure was not

realistic because a number of positions were

deliberately left unfilled during the hiatus caused by

the elections in the period October 1984 to February

1985, and that this financial year the Senate

department would need to be fully staffed; and that

. the Appropriations and Staffing Committee had already

pruned $50,000 off the salaries item in the Senate

estimates as part of its overall reduction of $553,000

in Senate departmental bids in its endeavour to

approach the Minister's target outlays figure.

On 6 August the Minister responded that 'every attempt

should be made to absorb this amount' [the 'anomalies' increase].

In a further letter on 19 August he confirmed this view, but said

that the Parliament's funding could be reviewed when the need for

additional estimates was examined. However, any such review

would have to take account of guidelines or conditions set by the

Government at that time. .

It is appropriate for me, therefore, to now advise this

committee that, depending on the level of expenditure within the

parliamentary departments during the first part of the 1985-86

31.

financial year - levels which I have instructed are to be closely

monitored - it could be necessary for me (through the

Appropriations and Staffing Committee in the case of the Senate)

to request additional funds at Supplementary Estimates time to

provide for the 'anomalies' increase.

10.9.85

32.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 3

TUESDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING

The Committee met in private session at 5.40 p.m.

2. RESIGNATION OF CHAIRMAN

Senator Robert Ray announced his resignation as

Chairman of the Committee.

3. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN

The Secretary called for nominations for Chairman.

Senator Richardson was nominated by Senator Ray. There being

no further nominations Senator Richardson was declared

elected and thereupon took the Chair.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86

The Chairman reported the resolution of the Senate of

23 August 1985 referring the Particulars of Proposed

Expenditure 1985-86 and Departmental Expenditure under the

Advance to the Minister for Finance for 1984-85 to the

Committee.

35.

5. CONSIDERATION OF EXPENDITURE

The Committee agreed to examine departmental estimates

referred to it in the following order:

Parliamentary departments

Industry, Technology and Commerce

Science

Prime Minister and Cabinet

Trade

6. DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY, TECHNOLOGY AND COMMERCE

The Committee agreed to consider the estimates of the

Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce by program

and sub-program, utilising the table appearing on pages

118-119 of the document. Portfolio Program Statements

1985-86, and the departmental explanatory notes.

7. ADJOURNMENT

8. ATTENDANCE

Senators Cook, Hill, Jessop, Robert Ray, Richardson and

Short.

The Committee adjourned at 5.48 p.m.

Q A M D T D M I ? n ·

(Graham Richardson)

Chairman

36.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 4

TUESDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING

The Committee met at 5.50 p.m. The Chairman (Senator

Richardson) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN

The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure

to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the

estimates of the following departments referred by the Senate

for consideration: Parliamentary departments; Industry,

Technology and Commerce; Science; Prime Minister and Cabinet;

Trade.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

PARLIAMENTARY DEPARTMENTS

In attendance; Senator the Hon. Douglas McClelland,

President of the Senate, accompanied by the following

officers;

Department of the Senate

Mr A .R . Gumming Thom, Clerk of the Senate

Mr T.H.G. Wharton, Clerk-Assistant (Management)

Miss A. Lynch, Clerk-Assistant (Committees)

Mr H. Evans, Clerk-Assistant (Procedure)

Mr P.N. Murdoch, Clerk-Assistant (Table)

Mr R. Alison, Usher of the Black Rod

37.

Mr T. Magi, Acting Senior Clerk of Committees

Mr M. Goodall, Principal Parliamentary Officer

(Information Systems)

Mr J. Vander Wyk, Principal Parliamentary Officer

(Research and Education)

Mr J. Dyer, Principal Parliamentary Officer

(Parliamentary Relations)

Mr G. Nankervis, Senior Parliamentary Officer

(Administration)

Department of the Parliamentary Reporting Staff

Mr J.M. Campbell, Principal Parliamentary Reporter

Mr M.J. Farrelley, Administrative Officer

Mr S.W. Blume, Information Systems Officer

Department of the Parliamentary Library

Mr H . de S.C. Maclean, Parliamentary Librarian

Mr M.J. Brudenall, Deputy Parliamentary Librarian

Mrs D.M. Bennett, Acting Head, Legislative

Research Service

Mr M.J. Bray, Senior Executive Officer

Mr H. Knight, Finance Officer

Mr R.G. Kemp, Estimates Officer

Joint House Department

Mr J.M. Jorgensen, Secretary

Mr F. Bradley, Director, House Management

Mr N . Kelly, Director, Management Services

Mr L. Carter, Finance Manager

Mr P. Richardson, Acting Manager of the

Commonwealth Parliament Refreshment Rooms

Mr T. Rees, Acting Security Controller

Mr P. Smith, Acting Principal Technical Officer

Department of Finance

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

38.

Mr E.J. Williams, Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

Defence and Government Division

Mr A. Agafonoff, Assistant Secretary, Defence and

Government Division

The President made an introductory statement prior to

consideration of the estimates of each parliamentary department.

The Chairman called on the following divisions for

examination:

Division 101

Division 102

Division 105

Division 106

Division 107

Division 108

Department of the Senate

Advance to the President of the Senate

Department of the Parliamentary

Reporting Staff

Department of the Parliamentary Library

Joint House Department

Joint Advance to the President and the

Speaker

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

proposed expenditure for the parliamentary departments,

subject to undertakings by the President to provide

additional information.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 - DEPARTMENT OF

INDUSTRY, TECHNOLOGY AND COMMERCE

In attendance; Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the

following officers:

39.

Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce

Mr R.O. Hoppe, First Assistant Secretary,

Executive Division

Dr A. Hayman, Principal Adviser, Policy Division

Dr M. Fitzpatrick, Acting First Assistant

Secretary, Technology Division

Mr J . Belshaw, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Industry Division 4

Mr P. Richards, Assistant Secretary, Heavy

Engineering and Machinery Branch

Mr G. Collopy, Assistant Secretary, Apparel and

Footwear Branch

Mr B. Meredyth, Assistant Secretary, Management

Services Branch

Australian Customs Service

Mr R. Carmody, First Assistant

Comptroller-General, Compliance Division

Mr H. Bates, First Assistant Comptroller-General,

Inland Revenue and Dumping Division

Mr T. Slater, First Assistant Comptroller-General,

Systems Division

Mr L.G. Jones, Assistant Comptroller-General,

Resources Management Branch

Mr B. Docherty, Assistant Comptroller-General,

Personnel Management Branch

Industries Assistance Commission

Mr L .D . Martin, First Assistant Commissioner,

Inquiry Division No. 1

Mr A.J. Cahill, Assistant Commissioner,

Management Branch

Mr K.B. Mourant, Director, Management Operations

Section

40.

Automotive Industry Authority

Mr W.I. Scales, Associate Member

Mr R.J. Bakker, Executive Officer

Department of Finance

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr W.S.B. Jackson, Assistant Secretary, General

Expenditure Division

Mr P. Thomas, Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

Transport and Industry Division

Mr J. Collins, Finance Officer Grade 2, Transport

and Industry Division

Mr A. Rizvi, Acting Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

General Expenditure Division

Mr B. Dastidar, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

Transport and Industry Division

The Minister made an opening statement.

The Chairman called on the following program:

Industries.

Further consideration of the estimates of the

Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce was postponed

to Friday, 13 September 1985, to enable consideration of the

estimates of the Antarctic Division of the Department of

Science and of the Australian Institute of Marine Science.

PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 - DEPARTMENT OF

SCIENCE

In attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the

following officers:

Department of Science

Dr R. Jensen, Assistant Secretary, Resources

Management Branch

Mr G. Bullivant, Director, Resource Planning

Resources Management Branch

Mr D . Keeley, Assistant Secretary, International

Policy and Program Branch, Scientific Develop­

ment Division

Mr R. Jacomb, Acting Assistant Secretary, Grants

and Fellowships Branch, Scientific Development

Division

Mr L . Williams, Director, Grants, Grants and

Fellowships Branch, Scientific Development

Division

Ms R. Galbally, Director, Commission for the

Future

Dr M. Gore, Acting Director, Australian National

Science Centre

Dr C. Dahl, Acting Australian Government Analyst

Mr R. Moncur, Deputy Director, Antarctic Division

Dr J. Zillman, Director of Meteorology

Mr B. Neal, Superintendent Meteorologist, Program

Co-ordination and Information, Bureau of

Meteorology

Mr T. Carrol, Executive Officer, Finance, Bureau

of Meteorology

Dr I. McCay, Acting Commissioner, Patent, Trade

Marks and Designs Office

Mr K. Stokes, Director, Resource Management,

Patent, Trade Marks and Designs Office

Ms K. Adams, Head of Management Services,

National Standards Commission

Mr H. Wray, Finance Officer, National Standards

Commission

Dr J. Andrews, Assistant Director, Australian

Institute of Marine Science

Mr R . Poole, Assistant Director, Resource

Budgeting, Resources Management Branch

42.

Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research

Organization

Dr N.K. Boardman, Executive Member

Mr H.C. Crozier, General Manager (Finance and

Administration)

Mr I.L. Farrar, Manager (Budget)

Mr K.N. Bedford, Chief Finance Officer (Budget)

Mr R.A. Riches, Acting Chief Finance Officer

(Budget)

Ms J . Colefax, Finance Officer (Budget)

Department of Finance

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

- Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr Jeremy Chandler, Senior Finance Officer

Grade 2, Education and Employment Division

The Chairman called on the following divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 543, 552 and 945

Further consideration of the estimates of the

Department of Science was postponed to Friday, 13 September

1985.

6. ADJOURNMENT

The Committee adjourned at 10.52 p.m.

43.

NEXT MEETING

The Committee adjourned to Friday, 13 September 1985.

ATTENDANCE

Senators Richardson (Chairman), Cook, Hill, Jessop,

Robert Ray and Short. Senators Chaney and Vigor also

attended.

CONFIRMED:

(Graham Richardson) Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 5

FRIDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING

The Committee met at 10.34 a.m. The Chairman (Senator

Richardson) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 - DEPARTMENT OF

INDUSTRY, TECHNOLOGY AND COMMERCE

In attendance; Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the

following officers:

Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce

Mr R.O. Hoppe, First Assistant Secretary,

Executive Division

Dr A. Hayrnan, Principal Adviser, Policy Division

Dr M. Fitzpatrick, Acting First Assistant

Secretary, Technology Division

Mr J. Belshaw, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Industry Division 4

Mr B . Meredyth, Assistant Secretary, Management

Services Branch

Mr A. Caddy, Assistant Secretary, Processed

Minerals and Metals Branch

45.

Australian Customs Service

Mr R. Carmody, First Assistant

Comptroller-General, Compliance Division

Mr T. Slater, First Assistant Comptroller-General,

Systems Division

Mr L.G. Jones, Assistant Comptroller-General,

Resources Management Branch

Mr B. Docherty, Assistant Comptroller-General,

Personnel Management Branch

Mr H. McMahon, Assistant Comptroller-General,

Resources Excise and Bounties Branch

Mr B. Cody, Assistant Comptroller-General,

Inland Services Branch

Mr J. Lambert, Assistant Comptroller-General,

Dumping Operations Branch

Industries Assistance Commission

Mr L.D. Martin, First Assistant Commissioner,

Inquiry Division No. 1

Mr A.J. Cahill, Assistant Commissioner,

Management Branch

Mr K.B. Mourant, Director, Management Operations

Section

Department of Finance

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr W.S.B. Jackson, Assistant Secretary, General

Expenditure Division

Mr P. Thomas, Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

Transport and Industry Division

Mr J. Collins, Finance Officer Grade 2, Transport

and Industry Division

Mr A. Rizvi, Acting Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

General Expenditure Division

Mr B. Dastidar, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

Transport and Industry Division

46.

Consideration resumed of the estimates of the

Department of Industry, Technology and Commerce. The

Chairman called on the following programs for consideration:

Small Business

Technology

Industry Services

Corporate Services

Customs

Excise

Customs Service - Corporate Services

Industries Assistance Commission

(The expenditures proposed for these programs are included in

divisions 380-386 and 911-916, as contained in the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure documents.)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

proposed expenditure for the Department of Industry,

Technology and Commerce, subject to undertakings to provide

additional information to the Committee.

Questions on notice submitted by Senator Jessop were,

by leave, incorporated in Hansard.

PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 - DEPARTMENT OF

SCIENCE

In attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the

following officers:

Department of Science

Dr R. Jensen, Assistant Secretary, Resources

Management Branch

Mr G . Bullivant, Director, Resource Planning

Resources Management Branch

Mr D. Keeley, Assistant Secretary, International

Policy and Program Branch, Scientific Develop­

ment Division

Mr R. Jacomb, Acting Assistant Secretary, Grants

and Fellowships Branch, Scientific Development

Division

Mr L. Williams, Director, Grants, Grants and

Fellowships Branch, Scientific Development

Division

Ms R. Galbally, Director, Commission for the

Future

Dr M. Gore, Acting Director, Australian National

Science Centre

Dr C. Dahl, Acting Australian Government Analyst

Dr J. Zillman, Director of Meteorology

Mr B. Neal, Superintendent Meteorologist, Program

Co-ordination and Information, Bureau of

Meteorology

Mr T. Carrol, Executive Officer, Finance, Bureau

of Meteorology

Dr I. McCay, Acting Commissioner, Patent, Trade

Marks and Designs Office

Mr K. Stokes, Director, Resource Management,

Patent, Trade Marks and Designs Office

Ms K. Adams, Head of Management Services,

National Standards Commission

Mr H . Wray, Finance Officer, National Standards

Commission

Mr R . Poole, Assistant Director, Resource

Budgeting, Resources Management Branch

Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research

Organization

Dr N.K. Boardman, Executive Member

Mr H.C. Crozier, General Manager (Finance and

Administration)

Mr I.L. Farrar, Manager (Budget)

Mr K.N. Bedford, Chief Finance Officer (Budget)

48.

Mr R.A. Riches, Acting Chief Finance Officer

(Budget)

Ms J. Colefax, Finance Officer (Budget)

Department of Finance

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr Jeremy Chandler, Senior Finance Officer

Grade 2, Education and Employment Division

Consideration resumed of the estimates of the

Department of Science. The Chairman called on the following

divisions for consideration:

Divisions 540, 542, 544, 545, 547, 548, 550,

554, 945 and 946.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

proposed expenditure for the Department of Science, subject

to undertakings to provide additional information to the

Committee.

Questions on notice submitted by Senators Jessop and

Lewis were, by leave, incorporated in Hansard.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 - DEPARTMENT OF

THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET

In attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the

following officers:

Australian Bicentennial Authority

Mr J.B. Reid, A.O., Chairman and Acting Chief

Executive Officer

Mr R.B. Maher, General Manager, Program

49.

Mr W.C. Fairbanks, General Manager, Finance

and Management Services

Department of Finance

Mr T. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr E.J. Williams, Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

Defence and Government Division

Mr R. Webb, Acting Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

Education and Employment Division

Mr G . Smith, Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

Transport and Industry Division

The Chairman called on division 517, Australian

Bicentennial Authority, for consideration. Prior to the

Committee's consideration commencing, Senator Lewis declared

that he was a director of the Bicentennial Authority.

Papers: Mr Reid, by leave, tabled the following papers:

Summary of the amounts to be paid to Dr Armstrong;

Letter from Allen Allen and Hemsley, Solicitors, to

Mr J.B. Reid, A.O., Chairman, Australian Bicentennial

Authority;

Chart entitled 1 Living Together1.

Further consideration of division 517, and of the other

divisions within the Department of the Prime Minister and

Cabinet, was postponed to Thursday, 19 September 1985. The

Chairman of the Bicentennial Authority, Mr Reid, was excused

from attendance on that date.

50.

5. ADJOURNMENT

The Committee adjourned at 4.23 p.m.

6. NEXT MEETING

The Committee adjourned to Thursday, 19 September 1985.

7. ATTENDANCE

Senators Richardson (Chairman), Cook, Robert Ray and

Short. Senators Archer, Chaney, Kilgariff and Lewis were

also present.

CONFIRMED:

? (Graham Richardson) Chairman

51.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 6

THURSDAY, 19 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING

The Committee met at 11.57 a.m. The Chairman (Senator

Richardson) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 - DEPARTMENT OF

THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET

In attendance; Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the

following officers:

Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet

Mr A.D. Rose, Deputy Secretary

Mr J.G. Hinton, Assistant Secretary, Services

Branch

Mr A.J. Mann, Senior Adviser, Services Branch

Mr J . Townsend, Deputy Director, Office of Youth

Affairs

Ms M. Gallagher, Senior Adviser, Program Branch,

Office of Youth Affairs

Ms S. Hamilton, Office of the Status of Women

Mr T. Fowler, Senior Adviser, Bicentennial Branch

Governor-General's Office

Mr D.I. Smith, Official Secretary

Wg Cdr B. Espeland, Comptroller to the

Governor-General

52

Economic Planning Advisory Council

Mr G.L. Miller, Director

Mr P . Mussared, Executive Secretary

Mr D . Challen, Acting Deputy Director

Office of National Assessments

Mr T.K. O'Brien, Acting Deputy Director-General

Mr N.D. Denning, Chief Executive Officer

Commonwealth Ombudsman

Air Vice-Marshall J.C, Jordan, A.O., Deputy

Commonwealth Ombudsman

Australian Science and Technology Council

Mr M. Lester, Assistant Secretary, Briefing and

Administration

Auditor-General's Office

Mr D.J. Hill, Deputy Auditor-General

Mr B.J. O'Donnell, Acting Assistant

Auditor-General, Resource Management and

Development Branch

Mr F.D. Campbell, Executive Officer, Finance

and Accounts Sub-Section

Public Service Board

Ms A. Buttsworth, Secretary

Mr J. Rowling, Assistant Commissioner, Management

Branch

Mr N . Kenway, First Assistant Commissioner,

Personnel Management Division

Mr G. Cunningham, Project Officer, Training

Programs Section, Personnel Management Division

Mr P. Lush, Director, Resource Management

Mr D. Calaby, Finance Officer

53.

Mr R. Matthews, Project Officer, Management

Improvement Division

Mr M. Lightowler, Director, Senior Executive

Service Staffing Unit

Ms S. Elderton, Project Officer, Management

Improvement Division

Mr A. Sirr, Acting First Assistant Commissioner,

Management Improvement Division

Australian Bicentennial Authority

Mr R.B. Maher, General Manager, Program

Mr W.C. Fairbanks, General Manager, Finance and

Management Services

Merit Protection and Review Agency

Mr P. Gifford, Director

Department of Finance

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr E.J. Williams, Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

Defence and Government Division

Mr R. Webb, Acting Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

Education and Employment Division

The Chairman called on division 517, Australian

Bicentennial Authority, for further consideration. After

discussion, the Committee agreed to postpone further

consideration of division 517 until the Chairman and Acting

Chief Executive Officer of the Authority, Mr Reid, was able

to be present. The division would be further considered on a

date to be fixed.

54.

The Chairman then called on divisions 500-516, 518, and 937-941 for consideration.

Papers; The following papers were tabled, by leave:

National Consultation and Assistance Program for

Women -Information on Operational Grants to National

Women's Organisations, together with copy of

application form

Information on Grants for Projects of Benefit to

Women

Government-assisted Participants in Non-Government

Organisations' Forum '85, Nairobi, 10-19 July

World Conference to review and appraise the

achievements of the United Nations Decade for Women:

Equality, Development, Peace

Program of Assistance to Youth Organisations (PAYO) -

Guidelines and Conditions of Assistance

With the exception of division 517, the Committee

concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for

the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, subject to

undertakings to provide additional information to the

Committee.

Questions on notice submitted by Senator Vigor were,

after discussion, incorporated in Hansard. The Chairman

stated that he did not intend to seek the Committee's

concurrence to forward written questions to departments

unless the questions were (a) from a member of the Committee

who was unavoidably absent, or (b) from another Senator, not

a member of the Committee, who could not be present because

he was participating in another Estimates Committee hearing

at the time the estimates of the department concerned were

being examined.

55.

3. ADJOURNMENT

The Committee adjourned at 6.40 p.m.

4. NEXT MEETING

The Committee adjourned to a date to be fixed.

5. ATTENDANCE

Senators Richardson (Chairman), Hill, Jessop, Robert

Ray and Short. Senators Chaney and Vigor were also present.

CONFIRMED:

(Graham Richardson) Chairman

56.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 7

FRIDAY, 4 OCTOBER 1985

1. MEETING

The Committee met at 1.17 p.m. The Chairman (Senator

Richardson) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 - DEPARTMENT

OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET

In attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the

following officers:

Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet

Mr A .D . Rose, Deputy Secretary

Mr N.D. Mclnnes, Deputy Secretary

Mr A.C. Kevin, Assistant Secretary, Bicentennial

Branch

Mr T.F. Fowler, Senior Adviser, Bicentennial

Branch

Mr J.G. Hinton, Assistant Secretary, Operations

Group Mr B.D. Bell, Acting Director, Finance and

Services

57.

Australian Bicentennial Authority (in continuation)

Mr J.B. Reid, AO (present as Chairman of the

Authority at the relevant periods under

examination)

Representing the Authority:

Mr R.B. Maher, Acting Chief Executive

Mr W.C. Fairbanks, General Manager, Finance and

Management Services

Department of Finance

Mr T. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Ms C.F. Low, Senior Finance Officer, Grade 1,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

The Chairman made an opening statement concerning the

presence of Mr Reid, and then called on division 517,

Australian Bicentennial Authority, for further consideration

The Minister presented additional information in

relation to several questions asked at the hearing on Friday

13 September. Mr Reid made two corrections to evidence

presented by him on that date.

Papers: The following papers were, by leave, tabled and

incorporated in Hansard during the course of the hearing: 1

(1) Additional information provided by the Australian

Bicentennial Authority in response to questions

asked on 13 September;

58.

(2) Document, undated, headed 'Severance Packages';

(3) File note by J.B. Reid, dated 19 August 1985;

(4) Letter from J.B. Reid to Dr D.P. Armstrong, dated

12 October 1979, relating to the terms and

conditions of Dr Armstrong's employment as General

Manager;

(5) Letter from Allen Allen and Hemsley to Mr J.B. Reid,

dated 4 October 1985, confirming advice given

concerning the terms of Dr Armstrong's employment;

(6) Deed of settlement between the Australian

Bicentennial Authority and David Patrick Armstrong,

made on 23 August 1985;

(7) Letter from Allen Allen and Hemsley to Mr J.B. Reid,

dated 20 August 1985, concerning the final

remuneration package for Dr Armstrong;

(8) Letter from Allen Allen and Hemsley to Mr J.B. Reid,

dated 20 August 1985, providing advice relating to

an arrangement with Dr Armstrong concerning the

termination of his employment;

(9) Letter from Allen Allen and Hemsley to Mr J.B. Reid,

dated 23 August 1985 and headed 'Retirement of Dr

Armstrong', being a covering letter for the deed of

settlement;

(10) Letter from Allen Allen and Hemsley to Mr J.B. Reid,

dated 26 August 1985 and headed 'Dr Armstrong',

confirming receipt of an executed copy of the deed

of settlement; and

59.

(11) Document, undated, headed 'Chronology of Events'.

Further consideration of division 517 was postponed to

Wednesday, 9 October 1985. Mr Reid was excused from further

attendance.

3. ADJOURNMENT

4. NEXT MEETING

The Committee adjourned to Wednesday, 9 October 1985,

at 8.00 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE

Senators Richardson (Chairman), Jessop and Short.

Senators Michael Baume, Messner and Vigor were also present.

The Committee adjourned at 4.35 p.m.

CONFIRMED ?

(Graham Richardson) Chairman

60.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 8

WEDNESDAY, 9 OCTOBER 1985

1. MEETING

The Committee met at 8.08 p.m. The Chairman (Senator

Richardson) took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 - DEPARTMENT

OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET

In attendance; Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the

following officers:

Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet

Mr A.D. Rose, Deputy Secretary

Mr N.D. Mclnnes, Deputy Secretary

Mr A .C . Kevin, Assistant Secretary, Bicentennial

Branch

Australian Bicentennial Authority

Mr R.B. Maher, Acting Chief Executive

Mr W.C. Fairbanks, General Manager, Finance and

Management Services

Department of Finance

Mr T . Wilson, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr G. Kazs, Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

Science and Culture Branch

61.

Ms C.F. Low, Senior Finance Officer Grade 1,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

The Chairman called on division 517, Australian

Bicentennial Authority, for further consideration.

Questions on notice submitted by Senator Vigor were, by

leave, incorporated in Hansard.

At 9.30 p.m. the Committee resolved to postpone further

consideration of the estimates of the Australian Bicentennial

Authority until after it had considered the estimates of the

Department of Trade.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 - DEPARTMENT

OF TRADE

In attendance; Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by the

following officers:

Department of Trade

Mr C.F. Teese, Deputy Secretary

Mr P. Connolly, First Assistant Secretary,

Service Trade and Export Facilitation

Mr R.P. Maxwell, First Assistant Secretary,

Manufactures Trade

Mr P.S. Field, First Assistant Secretary, Market

Development I

Mr E.W. Exell, Interim Chief Executive, Australian

Trade Commission

Mr D.P. Cribble, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Management

Ms M.J. Bennett, Assistant Secretary, Resource

Management and Development

Mr J. Bennett, Acting Executive Member, Export

Development Grants Board

Mr P.L. Webb, Assistant Secretary, Operations

62.

Mr P .A. Hartigan, Acting Director, Trade

Commissioner Service

Mr A.J.F. Hislop, General Manager, Export Finance

and Insurance Corporation

Department of Finance

Mr T. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer Grade 2,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr G.L. Smith, Chief Finance Officer Grade 2,

Transport and Industry Division

The Chairman called on the following divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 640, 642, 644 and 964-66.

Questions on notice submitted by Senator Vigor were, by

leave, incorporated in Hansard.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

proposed expenditure for the Department of Trade, subject to

undertakings to provide additional information to the

Committee.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 - DEPARTMENT

OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET

In attendance: Senator the Hon. John Button, Minister for

Industry, Technology and Commerce, accompanied by officers

listed in item 2 of these minutes.

The Chairman called on division 517, Australian

Bicentennial Authority, for further consideration.

The Minister presented additional information provided

by the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet in relation

to questions asked at the hearing on Friday, 4 October.

These were incorporated in Hansard.

63.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

proposed expenditure for the Australian Bicentennial

Authority, subject to undertakings to provide additional

information to the Committee.

5. ADJOURNMENT

The Committee adjourned at 1.24 a.m., Thursday,

10 October 1985.

6. NEXT MEETING

The Committee adjourned to Thursday, 10 October 1985.

7. ATTENDANCE

Senators Richardson (Chairman), Cook, Cooney, Hill,

Jessop and Short. Senators Michael Baume, Sir John Carrick,

Chaney, Crichton-Browne, Durack, MacGibbon, Messner, Parer,

Peter Rae, and Vigor also attended.

CONFIRMED:

(Graham Richardson) Chairman

64.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 9

THURSDAY, 10 OCTOBER 1985

1. MEETING

The Committee met in deliberative session at 6.30 p.m.

in Senate Committee Room 8. The Chairman (Senator

Richardson) took the Chair.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES

The minutes of meetings held on 10, 13 and 19 September

and 4 and 9 October were confirmed.

3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE

The Committee commenced consideration of the Chairman's

draft report to the Senate.

Consideration of the draft report was suspended at

7.00 p.m. Consideration resumed at 10.30 p.m.

Resolved: That the draft report, as amended, be agreed to.

Reservation: Senator Short dissented from the penultimate

paragraph of the section of the report on the Australian

Bicentennial Authority, and stated that he would add a

reservation to the report.

65.

4. ADJOURNMENT

The Committee adjourned at 12.15 a.m., Friday,

11 October 1985.

5. ATTENDANCE

Senators Richardson (Chairman), Cook, Cooney, Hill,

Jessop and Short.

CERTIFIED CORRECT:

(Graham Richardson) Chairman *

*

66.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee B has the honour to present its Report to

the Senate.

1. On 23 August 1985 the Senate referred to the Committee

the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the

Year ending on 30 June 1986, the Particulars of Certain Proposed

Expenditure in Respect of the Year ending on 30 June 1986 and

the Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance

for the year ended 30 June 1985, for the following departments:

Department of Community Services

Department of Social Security

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

Department of Health. 2

2. The Committee has considered these Estimates and has

received explanations of them from the Minister for Community

Services (Senator the Honourable Don Grimes) and the Minister

for Resources and Energy (Senator the Honourable Gareth Evans)

and officers of the departments concerned. A copy of the Minutes

of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the

Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in

connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1985-86 and

Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1985-86.

69.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters:

Departmental Witnesses

In its report, dated May 1985, this Committee expressed

concern that some answers provided to questions directed to the

proposed expenditure of the Australian Capital Territory Health

Authority reflected inadequate briefing.

On this occasion the Committee is pleased to commend

those officers who appeared before the Committee for their

expertise and capacity to answer most questions immediately and

competently. The standard of replies significantly enhanced the

"information gathering" role of the Committee.

Written Replies

Due to the extended hearings of the Committee this

report is presented to the Senate when there are outstanding a

significant number of departmental written replies. The various

Departments have been requested to provide the outstanding

replies before the consideration of the Appropriation Bills in

the Committee of the Whole.

Repetition Strain Injury

In its Report to the Senate, dated 9 October 1984, the

Committee drew attention to the need for a comprehensive study

of the problem of Repetition Strain Injury (RSI) with a view to

instituting co-ordinated programmes for the prevention and

management of RSI and the support of those workers suffering

from such injuries.

70.

In considering the Estimates of the four departments

the Committee noted the concern expressed by witnesses and the

initiatives taken during the year 1984-85 in the areas of

training, job design, exercise, rest breaks and ergonomically

designed furniture.

The Committee has also noted the recommendations

contained in the report of the Task Force on RSI in the

Australian Public Service and looks forward to a timely

government response to those recommendations.

4. The Committee records its appreciation of the

assistance given by the Minister for Community Services (Senator

the Hon. Don Grimes) and the Minister for Resources and Energy

(Senator the Hon. Gareth Evans) and officers of the departments

concerned.

Patricia J. Giles

Chairperson

I t

■

• ■

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

'

.

··

.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 3

FRIDAY, 23 AUGUST 1985

1. MEETING:

The Committee met in private session at 1.45 p.m. in Senate

Committee Room 6.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE

UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85

Senator Giles reported the entry in Journals of the Senate

of 23 August 1985 referring to the Committee the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for 1985-86 and

expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance

for 1984-85 for the following departments: Community

Services, Social Security, Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

and Health.

3. MANNER OF EXAMINING THE ESTIMATES:

The Committee discussed matters relating to days and hours

of hearings, the order in which departments would be called

and research to be undertaken prior to the hearings.

75.

4. PUBLICATION OF WRITTEN REPLIES:

Senator Messner moved - That the Committee authorises the

publication of departmental written replies to Senators who

are not members of Estimates Committee B, prior to the

replies being tabled in the Senate.

Question put and passed.

5. ADJOURNMENT:

The Committee adjourned at 2.00 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE:

The following members of the Committee were present:

Senator Giles (Chairperson)

Senator Crowley

Senator Elstob

Senator Messner

Senator Sheil

Senator Walters

Patricia J. Giles Chairperson

76.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 4

TUESDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING:

The Committee met at 5.48 p.m. in Senate Committee Rooms 1

and 2. Senator Giles took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86:

Department of Community Services

In Attendance:

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community

Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Community Services

Mr Glenn Rees, Deputy Secretary

Mr Daryl Dixon, Head, Policy Co-ordination Unit

Mr John Simpson, First Assistant Secretary,

Corporate Services Division

Mr Ken Horsham, Acting Director, Office of Child

Care

Mr Brian Macdonald, Assistant Secretary,

Resources Branch, Corporate Services Division

Mr Tony Kingdon, Assistant Secretary, Disability

Services Branch, Community Programs Division

77.

Mr Oliver Winder, Assistant Secretary, Strategic

Planning Branch, Office of Child Care

Mr Ian Wingett, Assistant Secretary, Standards

and Development Branch, Residential Programs

Division

Mr Geoff Hine, Director, Financial Management,

Resources Branch, Corporate Services Division

Mr Doug Limbrick, Director, Planning and Review

No 1, Commonwealth Rehabilitation Service

Mr Pat Dawes, Director, Approvals and

Accommodation, Accommodation and Residents

Branch, Residential Programs Division

Ms Pam Sharpe, Director, Program Policy and

Development, Supported Accommodation Assistance

Branch, Community Programs Division

Ms Prudence Ford, Agreements and Negotiations,

Home and Community Care Branch, Community

Programs Division

Department of Finance

Mr T. Wall, Acting Chief Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr K. O'Neil, Finance Officer, Financial

Management and Accounting Policy Division

Mr G. Smith, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Social

Security Division

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 220 and 221 - Department of Community Services,

(Document A)

Divisions 839 to 841 - Department of Community Services,

(Document B)

Division 560 - Department of Community Services,

(Document D)

78.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1985-86 for the

Department of Community Services, and expenditure under the

Advance to the Minister for Finance, subject to an

undertaking by the Minister to provide additional

information to the Committee.

3. ADJOURNMENT:

The Committee adjourned at 10.55 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE:

The following members of the Committee were present:

Senator Giles (Chairperson)

Senator Crowley

Senator Elstob

Senator Messner

Senator Sheil

Senator Walters

Senator Peter Baume also attended.

CONFIRMED

Patricia J. Giles Chairperson

79.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 5

FRIDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING:

The Committee met at 10.34 a.m. in Senate Committee Rooms 1

and 2. Senator Giles took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86:

Department of Social Security

In Attendance:

Senator the Honourable Gareth Evans, Minister for Resources

and Energy, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Social Security

Mr C. McAlister, National Manager

Mr J.V. Humphreys, First Assistant Secretary,

Systems

Mr A.R. Begbie, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Resource Management

Mr P.J. Taylor, First Assistant Secretary,

Regional Administration

80.

Mr D.I. Stanton, First Assistant Secretary,

Development

Mr J.F. McMahon, First Assistant Secretary,

Benefits

Mr M.R. Douglas, Acting First Assistant

Secretary, Legislation and Review

Mr B.E. Leonard, Acting First Assistant

Secretary, Operations Support

Mr D. Corrigan, Commissioner for Employees'

Compensation

Mr W.H. Lewisson, Assistant Commissioner,

Management and Operations, Commonwealth

Employees' Compensation

Mr T.C. Murphy, Assistant Secretary, Benefits

Control

Ms C. Zanetti, Assistant Secretary, Finance

Ms R. Lynch, Assistant Secretary, Secretariat and

Communications

Mr J . Wadeson, Assistant Secretary, Training and

Staff Development

Mr A. Newton, Acting Assistant Secretary, Human

Resource Management

Department of Finance

Mr T. Wall, Acting Chief Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr K. O'Neill, Finance Officer, Financial

Management and Accounting Policy Division

Ms K. Flanagan, Senior Finance Officer, Social

Security Division

Mr T. O'Brien, Senior Finance Officer, Social

Security Division

81.

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Division 560 - Department of Social Security, (Document A)

Division 948 - Department of Social Security, (Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1985-86 for the

Department of Social Security, subject to an undertaking by

the Minister to provide additional information to the

Committee.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

In Attendance;

Senator the Honourable Gareth Evans, Minister for Resources

and Energy, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

Mr L.B. Woodward, Deputy Secretary

Mr R.T. Anderson, First Assistant Secretary,

Management Division

Mr J. Mahoney, Assistant Secretary, Entry

Regulation Branch

Mr E. Brookbanks, Assistant Secretary, Migrant

Entry Branch

Mr T. Griffiths, Assistant Secretary, Refugees

and Humanitarian Branch

Mr D. Wheen, Assistant Secretary, Education

Branch

Mr D. Page, Acting Assistant Secretary, Ethnic

Affairs Branch

82.

Mr L. Westcott, Acting Director, Language

Services Section, Settlement Branch

Mr B. Strangio, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Finance and Services Branch

Mr C. Hansen, Acting Assistant Secretary, ADP

Branch

Mr A. Conheady, Chief Administrative Officer,

Australian Institute of Multicultural Affairs

Department of Finance

Mr T. Wall, Acting Chief Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr K. O'Neil, Finance Officer, Financial

Management and Accounting Policy Division

Ms K. Flanagan, Senior Finance Officer, Social

Security Division

Mr T. O'Brien, Senior Finance Officer, Social

Security Division

Senator Giles called on the following Division for

consideration:

Division 365 - Department of Immigration and Ethnic

Affairs, (Document A) 4

4. ADJOURNMENT:

The Committee adjourned at 4.15 p.m.

83.

5 ATTENDANCE:

The following members of the Committee were present:

Senator Giles (Chairperson)

Senator Crowley

Senator Elstob

Senator Messner

Senator Sheil

Senator Walters

Senator Peter Baume also attended.

CONFIRMED

Patricia Giles Chairperson

84.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 6

WEDNESDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING:

The Committee met at 8.07 p.m. in Senate Committee Room 6. Senator Giles took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86:

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

In Attendance

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community

Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs

Mr L.B. Woodward, Deputy Secretary

Mr R.T. Anderson, First Assistant Secretary,

Management Division

Mr J. Mahoney, Assistant Secretary, Entry

Regulation Branch

Mr E. Brookbanks, Assistant Secretary, Migrant

Entry Branch

85.

Mr T. Griffiths, Assistant Secretary, Refugees

and Humanitarian Branch

Mr G. Chapman, Director, Program Management and

Support Services, Education Branch

Mr D. Page, Acting Assistant Secretary, Ethnic

Affairs Branch

Ms S. Ingram, Assistant Secretary, Settlement

Branch

Mr B. Strangio, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Finance and Services Branch

Mr B. Tierney, Acting Assistant Secretary, ADP

Branch

Department of Finance

Mr T. Wall, Acting Chief Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr K. O'Neil, Finance Officer, Financial

Management and Accounting Policy Division

Mr R. Knapp, Chief Finance Officer, Education and

Employment Division

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 360 and 364 - Department of Immigration and

Ethnic Affairs (Document A)

Divisions 902 to 904 - Department of Immigration and Ethnic

Affairs (Document B)

The Committee concluded its considerations of the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1985-86 for the

Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, subject to an

undertaking by the Minister to provide additional

information to the Committee.

86.

3 ADJOURNMENT:

The Committee adjourned at 10.48 p.m.

4 . ATTENDANCE:

The following members of the Committee were present:

Senator Giles (Chairperson)

Senator Crowley

Senator Sheil

Senator Walters

Senator Tate also attended.

CONFIRMED

Patricia J . Giles Chairperson

87.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 7

THURSDAY, 19 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING:

The Committee met at 12.00 noon in Senate Committee Rooms 1

and 2. Senator Giles took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86:

Department of Health

In Attendance:

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community

Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Health

Mr B.V. McKay, Secretary

Mrs A.L. Kern, Deputy Secretary

Dr R. Wells, Chief Commonwealth Medical Officer

Mr M. Roche, First Assistant Secretary, Corporate

Resources Division

Mr P. Pflaum, First Assistant Secretary, National

Health and Medical Research Division

88.

Mr A. Bansemer, First Assistant Secretary, Health

Services Financing Division

Dr L. Dodson, First Assistant Secretary,

Therapeutics Division

Mr I. McNeil, Assistant Secretary, Resources

Branch

Mr W. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Hospitals and

Insurance Branch

Mr A. Mackay, Assistant Secretary, Utilization,

Statistics and Costing Branch

Mr P. Griffin, Assistant Secretary, Food and

Environmental Protection Branch

Mr N.M. Hill, Assistant Secretary, Medical

Benefits Branch

Mr J.W. Taylor, Director, Financial Resources

Section

Mr A. Mair, Senior Finance Officer, Financial

Resources Section

Dr D. Shogren, Assistant Secretary, Executive and

International Branch

Mr W. Turk, Assistant Secretary, Pharmaceutical

Operations

Dr J . Deeble, Director, Australian Institute of

Health

Mr J . Bissett, Chairman, ACT Health Authority

Mr G. Faichney, Assistant Commissioner, Planning

and Resource Mangement, ACT Health Authority

Mr M. Murray, Assistant General Manager, Finance,

Health Insurance Commission

Dr B. Kean, Executive Projects and International

Branch

Department of Finance

Mr T. Wall, Acting Chief Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

89.

Mr K. O'Neil, Finance Officer, Financial

Management and Accounting Policy Division

Mr D. Bentley, Acting Chief Finance Officer,

Social Security Division

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 325 to 329 - Department of Health (Document A)

3. ADJOURNMENT:

The Committee adjourned at 4.17 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE:

The following members of the Committee were present:

Senator Giles (Chairperson)

Senator Crowley

Senator Elstob

Senator Sheil

Senator Walters

Senator Tate also attended.

CONFIRMED

Patricia J. Giles Chairperson

90.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 8

WEDNESDAY, 9 OCTOBER 1985

MEETING:

The Committee met at 8.00 p.m. in Senate Committee Room 6.

Senator Giles took the Chair.

PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86:

Department of Health

In Attendance:

Senator the Honourable Don Grimes, Minister for Community

Services, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Health

Dr D. DeSouza, Chief Commonwealth Medical Officer

Mrs A.L. Kern, Deputy Secretary

Mr M. Roche, First Assistant Secretary, Corporate

Resources Division

Mr P. Pflaum, First Assistant Secretary, National

Health and Medical Research Division

Mr A. Bansemer, First Assistant Secretary, Health

Servicing Financing Division

91.

Mr J . McCauley, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Health Advancement Division

Mr I. McNeil, Assistant Secretary, Resources

Branch

Mr W. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Hospitals and

Insurance Branch

Mr A. Mackay, Assistant Secretary, Utilisation,

Statistics and Costing Branch

Mr G. James, Assistant Secretary, Drug Dependence

Branch

Mr A. Proudfoot, Assistant Secretary,

Communicable Diseases Branch

Dr J. McEwan, Therapeutics Division

Mr N.M. Hill, Assistant Secretary, Medicare

Benefits Branch

Mr J.W. Taylor, Director, Financial Resources

Section

Mr A. Mair, Senior Finance Officer, Financial

Resources Section

Mr W. Turk, Assistant Secretary, Pharmaceutical

Operations Branch

Mr W. Peart, Administrator, Australian Institute

of Health

Mr J . Bissett, Chairman, ACT Health Authority

Mr G. Faichney, Assistant Commissioner, Planning

and Resource Management, ACT Health Authority

Mr M. Murray, Assistant General Manager, Finance,

Health Insurance Commission

Department of Finance

Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial

Management and Accounting Policy Division

Mr D. Bentley, Senior Finance Officer, Social

Security Division

Mr E. Mann, Chief Finance Officer, Social

Security Division

92.

Senator Giles called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Division 329 - Department of Health (Document A)

Divisions 881 to 883 - Department of Health (Document B)

Divisions 325 and 326 - Department of Health (Document D)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1985-86 for the

Department of Health, and Expenditure under the Advance to

the Minister for Finance, subject to an undertaking by the

Minister to provide additional information to the

Committee.

3. ADJOURNMENT:

The Committee adjourned at 9.43 p.m.

4 . ATTENDANCE:

The following members of the Committee were present:

Senator Giles (Chairperson)

Senator Crowley

Senator Walters

CONFIRMED

Patricia J. Giles Chairperson

93.

•ί

•

•

. . ·

. .}

.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C REPORT TO THE SENATE

4 J·

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee C has the honour to present its Report

to the Senate.

1. On 23 August, 1985, the Senate referred to the Committee the

Estimates for the year ending 30 June 1986 relating to the

following Departments:

Department of Finance

Department of the Treasury

Department of Employment and Industrial Relations

Department of Communications

Department of Primary Industry

2. The Committee has considered the Estimates of Expenditure

and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance and

received explanations of them from the Minister for Finance and

officers of the Departments concerned. A copy of the Minutes of

Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the

Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in

connection with Appropriation Bill (No.l) 1985-86 and

Appropriation Bill (No.2) 1985 -86. Further written explanations

furnished by Departments will be presented separately and printed

in the Hansard record. 3

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

following matters:

97.

DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS

Australian Broadcasting Corporation

The Committee's May 1985 Report to the Senate detailed

problems experienced by the Committee in gaining information from

the Australian Broadcasting Corporation at the time of that

hearing and at earlier hearings in 1984. As the Parliament is the

body responsible for the creation of statutory authorities such

as the Corporation it is a fundamental principle that those

bodies be accountable to the Parliament.

As the Corporation has been criticised for not providing

full and frank information to the Committee in the past, we are

happy to report that the Corporation's Managing Director and

other senior officers were available to provide information for

the Committee. Information requested by the Committee was

extensive and detailed. The Corporation's officers, for the most

part, provided answers to these requests at the hearing and where

that was not possible agreed to provide written responses

subsequent to the hearings. Most of that information has now been

received by the Committee, providing the detail sought. The

Committee commends the Corporation and its officers for this

co-operation.

The approach adopted by the Corporation at these hearings is

seen by the Committee as an acceptance by the Corporation of its

accountability to the Parliament. The Committee will continue its

close interest in the Corporation and in particular the

development of its financial reporting systems, including an

assets register with current valuations.

98.

DEPARTMENT OF FINAUCE

DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS

Program Budgeting

The Senate Standing Committee on Finance and Government

Operations, in its May 1985 Report to the Senate on 1 Changes in

the Presentation of the Appropriations and Departmental

Explanatory Notes' recommended that those Estimates Committees

examining the estimates of the three pilot departments report to

the Senate on the format and content of Departmental Explantory

Notes. Two of the three pilot departments were examined by

Estimates Committee C, the Department of Finance and the

Department of Employment and Industrial Relations.

Consideration of these two departments required examination

of Budget Paper No. 6 and a document tabled subsequent to the

Budget Papers entitled 'Portfolio Program Statements' in

conjunction with the Explanatory Notes. The use of all these

documents was necessary as program estimates do not equate with

figures in the Appropriation Bills. There is a great deal of

overlapping information in these documents. As this is the first

occasion that these documents have been produced the Committee

recommends that they be refined and where possible the

information combined in the one document to better facilitate

examination.

In addition departments using program budgeting should

provide a detailed summary of the relationship between the

Appropriation Bills and their estimates by program. Whilst this

information was available it was not in a concise form for use by

the Committee. This will be necessary until such time as the

Appropriation Bills themselves are presented on a program basis.

99.

The Committee also encountered some difficulty in

distinguishing within programs expenditure originating from

Appropriation Bill No. 2. It will be necessary for this

information to be provided in summary form and highlighted at the

appropriate place in the Explanatory Notes.

The Committee is particularly concerned about inaccuracies

that were found in the Explanatory Notes presented on a program

basis. The provision of corrigenda by the Department of Finance

was of assistance but was received after the Committee's

examination of the Explanatory Notes. The Committee appreciates

the difficulties faced by Departments preparing program based

Explanatory Notes for the first time, as well as associated

documents. The Committee expects greater accuracy in Program

based Explanatory Notes at future estimates hearings given

experience gained from the current hearings.

The Committee believes that the program based estimates

trial should continue. As the accompanying documentation is

refined the examination of program estimates will be enhanced.

Much work however is still necessary in developing program

objectives and criteria for evaluating the effectiveness and

efficiency of the programs.

4. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance

given by the Minister and departmental officers.

(B.K. Childs)

Chairman

100.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

" ·

'

*

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 4

FRIDAY, 23 AUGUST 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 8.55 a.m.

in Senate Committee Room No. 5 Parliament House.

2. CHANGE IN MEMBERSHIP OF THE COMMITTEE: Journals of the

Senate dated 22 August 1985 record that Senator Devlin had been

appointed to the Committee on that day.

3. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: The secretary then called for

nominations for Chairman. Senator Childs was nominated by Senator

Devlin, seconded Senator Parer. Senator Childs thereupon took the

Chair. 4

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE YEAR ENDING ON

30 JUNE Γ986 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER

FOR FINANCE FOR THE YEAR ENDING 30 JUNE 1985: The Chairman

reported the entry in the Journals of the Senate of 22 August

1985 referring to the particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1986

and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance

1985.

103.

5. RELEASE OF ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

The Committee resolved:

That the Chairman be authorised to

release written answers to questions

provided subsequent to meetings of

the Committee.

6. MANNER OF EXAMINING THE ESTIMATES: Departments will be

examined in the following order: Finance

Employment and Industrial

Relations

Treasury

Communications

Primary Industry

7. ADJOURNMENT: 9.00 a.m.

8. ATTENDANCE: Senators Childs (Chairman) Boswell,

Brownhill, Devlin, Maguire, Parer.

CONFIRMED:

(B. Childs)

Chairman

104.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 5

TUESDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 5.52 p.m. The Chairman,

Senator Bruce Childs took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE

UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85

DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS:

3. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister

for Finance, representing the Minister for Communications

accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Communications

Mr B.W. Johnman

Mr E.E. Payne

Mr J.D. Maclean

Deputy Secretary

Assistant Secretary

Finance and Regulatory Branch

Space, Telecommunications and

Postal Policy Division

Acting First Assistant Secretary

Corporate Policy and Projects

Division

105

Mr B.G. Foster

Mr R.N. Smith

Mr G.N. McAdoo

Mr M.R. Ramsay

Mr V.H. Jones

Mrs R. Martindale

Acting Assistant Secretary

Management Services Branch

Corporate Policy and Projects

Division

First Assistant Secretary

Broadcasting Policy and Planning

Division

Acting Assistant Secretary

Communications Systems Branch

Communications Development

Division

First Assistant Secretary

Radio Frequency Management

Division

First Assistant Secretary

Broadcasting Policy Branch

Broadcasting Policy and Planning

Division

Director

Finance and Services

Management Services Branch

Corporate Policy and Projects

Division

Australia Broadcasting Corporation

Mr G . Whitehead Managing Director

Mr K. Jackson Controller

Corporate Relations

Mr A.N. Le Gallant Director of Finance and EDP

Mr R. Thomas Director of Television

Mr M.W. Long Director of Radio

Ms J.M. Ercole Director of Human Resources

Mr G.E. Moriarty Director of Engineering and

Property

Mr M. Robinson Director of Sales and Marketing

106.

Mr P. Barnett Director of Radio Australia

Mr R. Coombe Corporate Controller Finance

Australian Broadcasting Tribunal

Mr A.S. Wilson Acting Secretary

Mr M. Payton Finance Officer

Special Broadcasting Service

Mr R.W. Stokes Acting Head of Corporate Affairs

Mr K.C. Nazaroff Director of Administration

Mr G.J. Sant Acting Assistant Director

Finance

Mr L.C. Shaw Head of Television

Australian Postal Commission

Mr K.L. Williams Manager, Policy and Planning

Operations Department

Australian Telecommunications Commission

Mr P. Minihan General Manager

Accounting and Supply Department

Mr M.L. Tyrrell Manager, Programming and Resources

Management Division, Network

Engineering Department

Department of Finance

Mr M.K. Lewis Senior Finance Officer

Mr K.H. Wood Senior Finance Officer

107.

The Chairman called on the following for consideration:

Telecom

Australia Post

Division 200 - ADMINISTRATIVE (Document A)

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.33 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: Senators Childs (Chairman), Boswell, Brownhill,

Devlin, Maguire, Parer. Senators Kilgariff, Puplick, P. Rae,

Reynolds and Vigor also attended.

CONFIRMED:

(B. CHILDS)

Chairman

108.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 6

FRIDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee resumed at 10.35 a.m. The Chairman,

Senator Bruce Childs took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE

UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85

DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS:

3. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister

for Finance, representing the Minister for Communications

accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Communications

Mr E.E. Payne

Mr J.D. Maclean

Mr B.G. Foster

Mr R.N. Smith

Deputy Secretary

Assistant Secretary

Finance and Regulatory Branch

Space, Telecommunications and

Postal Policy Division

Acting Assistant Secretary

Management Services Branch

Corporate Policy and Projects

Division

First Assistant Secretary

Broadcasting Policy and Planning

Division

109.

Mr G.N. McAdoo

Mr M.R. Ramsay

Mr V.H. Jones

Mr R.D. Rudland

Mrs R. Martindale

Acting Assistant Secretary

Communications Systems Branch

Communications Development

Division

First Assistant Secretary

Radio Frequency Management

Division

First Assistant Secretary

Broadcasting Policy Branch

Broadcasting Policy and Planning

Division

Assistant Secretary

Broadcasting Policy Branch

Broadcasting Policy and Planning

Division

Director

Finance and Services

Management Services Branch

Corporate Policy and Projects

Division

Australian Broadcasting Corporation

Mr K. Jackson Controller

Corporate Relations

Mr A.N. Le Gallant Director of Finance and EDP

Ms J.M. Ercole Director of Human Resources

Mr I.A. McGarrity Head of Satellite Project

Mr J.C. Newsom Controller

Radio Programs

Mr P. J. Conroy Controller

Television Programs

Australian Broadcasting Tribunal

Mr A. S. Wilson Acting Secretary

110.

Special Broadcasting Service

Mr R.W. Stokes

Mr K.C. Nazaroff

Mr G.J. Sant

Acting Head of Corporate Affairs

Director of Administration

Acting Assistant Director

Finance

Department of Finance

Ms C.F. Low

Mr M. Johnson

Mr B.J. Gleeson

Senior Finance Officer

Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Acting Chief Finance Officer

Transport and Industry Division

Chief Finance Officer

Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following for consideration:

Divisions 200, 201 (Document A)

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 4.27 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: Senators Childs (Chairman), Brownhill, Devlin,

Maguire, Parer. Senators Aulich, Colston, MacGibbon, Puplick, P.

Rae, Reynolds and Vigor also attended. An apology was received

from Senator Bo swell.

CONFIRMED:

(B. Childs)

Chairman

111.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 7

THURSDAY, 19 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee resumed at 11.58 a.m. The Chairman,

Senator Bruce Childs took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE

UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85

DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY:

3. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister

for Finance, representing the Minister for Primary Industry,

accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Primary Industry:

Mr J.L. Gibson

Mr P.H. Langhorne

Mr P. Core

Mr J.C. Sainsbury

Mr I.C. Mackey

Deputy Secretary

Director

Export Inspection Service

First Assistant Secretary

Development and Co-ordination

Division

Assistant Secretary

Wool Branch, Meat and Wool

Division

Acting First Assistant Secretary

Field Crops Division

112

Mr G.E. Pettit

Dr R. Bain

Mr R.R. Alderson

Mr J.R. Smith

Mr D.D.R. Pearson

Mr F.H.M. Collins

Mr R.W. Gee

Mr L. Lane

Dr B. Fisher

Assistant Secretary

Production and Intensive Livestock

Branch

Dairy and Intensive Livestock

Division

Director

Australian Fisheries Service

Assistant Secretary

Wine, Dried Fruits and Vegetables

Branch

Forestry and Horticultural Crops

Division

Acting First Assistant Secretary

Management Division

Assistant Secretary

Resources Management Branch

Management Division

Principal Advisor

Director

Australian Agricultural Health and

Quarantine Service

Deputy Director

Australian Agricultural Health and

Quarantine Service

Acting Deputy Director

Bureau of Agricultural Economics

Department of Finance

Mr B.J. Gleeson Chief Finance Officer

Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Mr N. Mersiales Chief Finance Officer

Transport and Industry Division

The Minister for Finance made a brief opening statement.

113.

The Chairman called on

consideration:

the following Divisions for

Divisions 490, 495, 497

Divisions 930, 943, 933

(Document A)

(Document B)

The Committee concluded its consideration ot the

particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1985-86 and Expenditure

under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1984-85 subject to

an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information

to the Committee.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE

UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85

DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

5. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister

for Finance accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Finance

Mr J.V. Galloway Assistant Secretary

Resource Policies and Management

Branch

Assistant Secretary

Public Administration and

Accounting Development Branch

Assistant Secretary

Financial Management Improvement

Branch

Acting Assistant Secretary

Accounting Operations Branch

Acting Assistant Secretary

Retirement Benefits Branch

Mr D.K. Wallace

Mr M. Holmes

Mr N. McKenna

Mr W.J. Brophy

114.

Ms S.E. Fenwick

Mr A.C. Harris

Mr C.R. Orr

Mr L. Osmond

Mr A.K. Rizvi

AGRBO

Acting Assistant Secretary

Retirement Benefits Branch

First Assistant Secretary

General Expenditure Division

Assistant Secretary

Commonwealth Superannuation Branch

Assistant Secretary

Rural and Commerce Branch

Acting Chief Finance Officer

Budget Development Branch

Mr R.D. McKillop

Mr J . McCullagh

Mr R. Jackson

Assistant Secretary

Resources Management

Di rector

Financial Management Services

Finance Officer

SFIT

Mr K. Searson General Manager

Policy, Legal and Administration

The Chairman called on the following Programs for

consideration:

Program 1 Budget Development and Management " 2 Resource Management Support to Departments

and Agencies

" 3 Accountability

" 4 Retirement Benefits

" 5 Specific Payment Schemes

" 6 Corporate Services

115.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1985-86 and Expenditure

under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1984-85.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE

UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85

DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS

7. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walshf Minister

for Finance representing the Minister for Employment and

Industrial Relations accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Employment and Industrial Relations

Mr A. Fogarty

Mr N. Fisher

Mr K. Power

Mr B. Mutton

Mr M. Angwin

Mr A. Kaspura

Mr J. O'Shea

Mr M. Quirk

Deputy Secretary

Director

Bureau of Labour Market Research

First Assistant Secretary

Management Policy and Development

Division

Assistant Secretary

Employment Policy and Training

Division

Assistant Secretary

Employment Policy and Training

Division

General Manager

Planning and ADP Division

First Assistant Secretary

Industrial Relations and

Arbitration

Inspectorate Division

Assistant Secretary

Industrial Relations Information

Technology Project

116.

Mr D. Gunzburg

Mr R. Willims

Dr K. Schott

Mr R. Coffey

Mr M. Boland

Mr K. Stone

Mr D. Cooper

Mr J . Brassil

Mr R. Marshman

Mr J . Fox

Assistant Secretary

Working Environment Branch

Assistant Secretary

Labour Market and Economic

Analysis Division

Assistant Secretary

Wages and Incomes Policy Division

Assistant Secretary

Resources Management Branch

Acting Industrial Registrar

National Director

Australian Trade Union Training

Authority

Administrator

Australian Trade Union Training

Authority

Chairman

National Occupational Health and

Safety Commission

First Assistant Secretary

Job Creation and Youth Programs

Division

Assistant Secretary

Aboriginal Employment and Training

Branch

Department of Finance

Mr A. Podger Assistant Secretary

Employment Branch

Mr N. Mersiales Chief Finance Officer

Transport and Industry Division

117.

The Chairman called on the following Programs for

consideration:

Program 1 Training

" 2 Job Creation and Employment Assistance " 3 Community-based and Special Groups " 4 Placement/Delivery

" 5 Industrial Relations and Wages and Incomes " 6 Economic Labour Market Advising

" 7 Corporate Services

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1985-86 and Expenditure

under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1984-85 subject to

an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information

to the Committee.

8. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE

UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY:

9. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister

for Finance representing the Minister for the Treasury

accompanied by the following officers:

Department of the Treasury

Dr C. Higgins

Mr A. Rowe

Mr C. Stevens

Deputy Secretary

Assistant Secretary

Co-ordination and Management

Branch

Chief Finance Officer

Loans and Debt Management Branch

Revenue, Loans and Investment

Division

118.

Mr J . Langoulant

Mr D. Holmesby

Mrs P. Bridge

Mr B. McLennan

Mr C. Kennedy

Chief Finance Officer

State and Local Government

Finances Branch

Revenue, Loans and Investment

Division

Director

Finance and Services Section

Co-ordination and Management

Branch

Assistant Finance Officer

Finances and Services Section

Co-ordination and Management

Branch

Superintendent

Royal Australian Mint

Chief Executive Officer

Prices Surveillance Authority

Australian Bureau of Statistics

Mr R.W. Edwards

Mr D. Efford

Mr D.J. Trewin

Ms B.J. Dunlop

Mr J. Cornish

Mr M.B. Booth

Mr D.C. Leaver

First Assistant Statistician

Co-ordination and Management

Division

Assistant Statistician

Management Improvement Branch

First Assistant Statistician

Economic Censuses and Surveys

Division

Assistant Statistician

International Accounts Branch

Assistant Statistician

Population Census and Demography

Branch

Assistant Statistician

User Services Branch

Assistant Statistician

Statistical Services Branch

119.

Mr J.V. CrockerM r J.V. Crocker

Ms M.C. Jones

Assistant Statistician

Operations and Software Branch

Director

Ms P. Guy

Resource Management Section

Senior Inspector

Finance Management Subsection

Australian Taxation Office

Mr J.J. Daly Senior Assistant Commissioner

Mr R.G. Mills

Operations Division

Senior Assistant Commissioner

Compliance Directorate

Mr G.R. Seymour Senior Assistant Commissioner Systems Division

Mr E.V. Killesteyn Assistant Commissioner Resources Branch

Mr B.A. Lennon Assistant Commissioner

Mr K.P. Booth

Policy and Legislation Directorate

Inspector Finance

Resources Branch

Mr J. Phillips Inspector Manpower Planning

Resources Branch

Department of Finance

Mr D.K. Wallace Assistant Secretary

Public Administration and

Mr A.P. Richardson

Accountancy Development Branch

Chief Finance Officer

Public Administration and

Accounting Branch

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 670, 671, 672, 676, 678 (Document A)

Divisions 976, 977, 980, 982 (Document B)

120.

The Committee concluded its consideration ot the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1985-86 and Expenditure

under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1984-85 subject to

an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information

to the Committee.

10. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.40 p.m.

11. ATTENDANCE: Senators Childs (Chairman), Boswell, Brownhill,

Devlin, Maguire, Parer. Senators Archer, P. Rae and P. Baume

also attended.

CONFIRMED

(B. Childs)

Chairman

121.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 8

FRIDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee resumed at 10.04 a.m. The Chairman,

Senator Bruce Childs took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE

UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85

DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS:

3. IN ATTENDANCE: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister

for Finance, representing the Minister for Communications

accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Communications

Mr E.E. Payne

Mr B.G. Foster

Mr R.N. Smith

Mr V.H. Jones

Deputy Secretary

Acting Assistant Secretary

Management Services Branch

Corporate Policy and Projects

Division

First Assistant Secretary

Broadcasting Policy and Planning

Division

First Assistant Secretary

Broadcasting Services Division

122.

Mr R.D. Rudland Assistant Secretary Broadcasting Policy Branch

Broadcasting Policy and Planning

Division

Mrs R. Martindale Director

Finance and Services

Management Services Branch

Corporate Policy and Projects

Division

Australian Broadcasting Corporation

Mr K. Jackson Controller

Corporate Relations

Mr A.N. Le Gallant Director of Finance and EDP

Ms J.M. Ercole Director of Human Resources

Mr J.C. Newsom Controller

Radio Programs

Mr P.J. Conroy Controller

Television Programs

Mr M. Robinson Director of Sales and Marketing

Mr I. McGarrity Director

Satellite Services

Australian Broadcasting Tribunal

Mr A.S. Wilson Acting Secretary

Special Broadcasting Service

Mr R.W. Stokes

Mr K.C. Nazaroff

Mr G.J. Sant

Acting Head of Corporate Affairs

Director of Administration

Acting Assistant Director

Finance

123.

Department of Finance

Mr M. Johnson Acting Chief Finance Officer

Transport and Industry Division

Finance Officer

Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Mr K. O'Neill

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1985-86 and Expenditure

under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1984-85 subject to

an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information

to the Committee.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.43 p.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: Senators Childs (Chairman), Boswell, Brownhill,

Devlin, Maquire. Senators P. Rae and Vigor also attended. An

apology was received from Senator Parer.

CONFIRMED

Divisions 201, 202

Divisions 833, 834

(Document A)

(Document B)

(B. Childs)

Chairman

124.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 9

THURSDAY, 10 OCTOBER 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met in deliberative session at

9.55 a.m. The Chairman, Senator Bruce Childs, took the

Chair.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the meetings held

on Friday 23 August 1985.

Tuesday 10 September 1985

Friday 13 September 1985

Thursday 19 September 1985

Friday 20 September 1985

were read and confirmed.

3. REPORT OF COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the

Chairman's draft Report to the Senate.

Resolved: On the motion of Senator Parer that the report be

adopted.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.00 a.m.

5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were

present: Senators Childs, Brownhill and Parer. Apologies

were received from Senators Boswell, Devlin and Maguire.

CONFIRMED:

(B . Childs)

Chairman 125.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D REPORT TO THE SENATE

-

*

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee D presents its Report to the Senate.

1. On 23 August 1985, the Senate referred to the Committee the

Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year

ending on 30 June 1986, the Particulars of Certain Proposed

Expenditure in Respect of the year ending on 30 June 1986 and

Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the

year ended 30 June 1985, relating to the following departments:

Education

Housing and Construction

Sport, Recreation and Tourism

Arts, Heritage and Environment

Aboriginal Affairs

2. The Committee has considered these Estimates and has

received explanations of them from the Minister for Education

(Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan) and officers of the departments

concerned. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings, documents tabled

during public hearings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken

by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in

connection with Appropriation Bill (No.1) 1985-86 and

Appropriation Bill (No.2) 1985-86. 3

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

following matters arising from its consideration of the

Estimates:

129.

Department of Education

Commonwealth Schools Commission

During the Committee's consideration of the additional

estimates on 18 April 1985 questions were asked relating to the

Early Special Education Program and the payments made to New

South Wales. The Commission subsequently informed the Committee

that answers were "being sought from the NSW education

authorities and will be forwarded as soon as responses are made

available". The Committee did not receive any further responses.

Questions on the matter were again asked at the hearings on 12

September 1985 to which officers were unable to provide

information.

The Commission indicated in its written replies to the

Committee that after initial contacts with NSW education

authorities "further follow up procedures were not undertaken".

An indication was given that a response is in preparation and

will be provided when it is received. The Committee regards such

delays in responding to questions asked 6 months previously as

intolerable. It places the Commission on notice that if the

Committee has not received within one month after the tabling of

this Report a satisfactory response to the questions asked

originally on 18 April 1985, it intends to reconvene to ascertain

from the Commission why a response was not provided.

The Committee believes that, as a general principle, when

questions asked at an Estimates hearing have not been

satisfactorily answered, officers should expect they will be

followed up at subsequent hearings and be briefed accordingly.

130.

ACT Schools Authority

The Committee was most dissatisfied with the response

provided by the Authority to a series of questions made available

prior to the public hearings and relating to the use of corporal

punishment in schools administered by the Authority. The

Committee regarded the answers as not only totally unsatisfactory

but also discourteous to a Senator asking questions at an

Estimates Committee. The approach adopted by the Authority also

indicated a marked lack of respect to the Committee.

While the Authority undertook to provide more detailed

information, certain written replies remain outstanding. The

Committee will be closely examining these replies before deciding

if further action is warranted.

Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment

Australian Film Commission

The Explanatory Notes provided for the Commission contained

1 global1 figures of $2.358m for Salaries and Payments in the

nature of Salaries and $2.132m for Administration Expenses. The

Committee regards this as most unsatisfactory and draws the

Commission's attention to the Guidelines for Preparation of

Departmental Explanatory Notes circulated by the Department of

Finance which notes that information required includes dissection

of salaries and administrative items. Statutory authorities are

requested by the Department of Finance to provide explanations

generally in accordance with these guidelines and particularly,

"to provide adequate details in their estimates explanatory

notes".

The Committee notes that a complete dissection of the items

was subsequently provided by the Commission in written replies.

131.

The Committee noted that during questioning on 17 September

1985 the Commission provided a different explanation concerning a

developed marketing infrastructure for the promotion and

distribution of Australian product from that provided in their

explanatory notes. The Commission admitted that it was not

prepared to entirely stand by the comments made in its

explanatory notes.

The Committee is concerned that information provided in

explanatory notes is accurate and fully sustainable under

questioning. Departments and Authorities should not make comments

in their notes which, under questioning, they are forced to

retract.

National Library of Australia

In its Report to the Senate dated May 1985, the Committee

expressed concern that the National Library's commitment to

services for the disabled had been subsumed in the overall

allocation of resources and indicated that·it would be monitoring

developments in the area during budget estimates. On 17 September

1985 a question was asked relating to the extension of services

to the disabled contained in the Library's five-year plan. This

question was based on information given to the Committee on 14

September 1984 "that specific provision [in regard to this whole

area] is included in the five year plan which we drew up, as did

the other national collecting institutions, and submitted to the

Minister some 18 months ago".

The Committee has now been informed that the advice provided

in 1984 was "in error". The question of "whether additional

resources can be put into [services for] the disabled is very

much a question for the resource management review currently

being undertaken" (emphasis added).

132.

The Committee views most seriously this provision of

erroneous and misleading advice and cautions the National Library

that it will be paying close attention to future evidence and

activity of the Library before the Committee.

Department of Sport, Recreation and Tourism

Commonwealth Government Directory

The Committee is concerned at the lengthy delay in

publishing Volume 1 of the Commonwealth Government Directory for

1985. The Directory is an important public document, particularly

following the enactment of the Freedom of Information Act, as it

contains information on Commonwealth agencies and their executive

personnel. The Committee was informed that the delay in

publication resulted from a combination of late submission of

copy, delays in correction and return of galley proofs by some

departments and production difficulties within the Australian

Government Publishing Service. Seventeen departments were listed

as failing to provide copy by deadlines set variously at 1 and 28

February 1985. These were:

. Arts, Heritage and Environment;

. Communications;

.· Community Services;

. Defence;

. Education and Youth Affairs;

. Employment and Industrial Relations;

. Health;

. Industry, Technology and Commerce;

. Primary Industry;

. Prime Minister and Cabinet;

. Resources and Energy;

. Science;

. Sport, Recreation and Tourism;

. Territories;

133.

. Transport;

. Treasury; and

. Veterans' Affairs.

The Committee regards this situation as most unsatisfactory

and would expect that in the future departments should meet copy

deadlines to ensure a more timely, and therefore up-to-date,

publication of the Directory.

Department of Aboriginal Affairs

Departmental Guidelines

The Committee recognises the effort made by the Department

of Aboriginal Affairs to rectify some of the problems with its

procedures which had been the subject of criticism by the

Auditor-General in recent years. The Department has produced two

documents - Departmental Guidelines and Departmental Financial

Guidelines for Grants - which set down the policy, objectives and

strategies in respect of programs for the advancement of

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people together with the

principles behind departmental expenditure on Aboriginal

Advancement Programs.

The Committee commends the Department for its timely

initiative in the production and publication of these guidelines.

Scheduling of Estimates Committees

The Committee is concerned that its consideration of the

estimates was interrupted by a variety of occurrences outside of

its influence. Unforeseen urgent Government business, problems of

Ministerial availability and the necessity to organize meetings

subject to the early adjournment of sittings of the Senate

contributed to an uncertainty in the operation of the Committee.

134.

This u n c e r t a i n t y a n d c o n s e q u e n t d e l a y s a f f e c t e d t h e a r r a n g e m e n t s

f o r t h e a p p e a r a n c e of d e p a r t m e n t a l o f f i c e r s - e s p e c i a l l y

i n t e r s t a t e w i t n e s s e s .

The Committee believes that consideration should be given to

reviewing the scheduling of Estimates Committees to allow maximum

time for public hearings unfettered by the restraints imposed by

operating subject to sitting periods of the Senate.

4. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance

given by the Minister for Education (Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan)

and the officers of the various departments and authorities who

appeared before the Committee.

MAL COLSTON

C h a i r m a n

October 1985

135.

’!■

.

DOCUMENTS TABLED DURING PUBLIC HEARINGS

OR

P R O V I D E D WITH WRIT TEN REPLIES

'!

DOCUMENTS TABLED DURING PUBLIC HEARINGS OR

PROVIDED WITH WRITTEN REPLIES

The following is a list of the documents tabled during the

public hearings or provided to the Committee with written

replies. The documents have been included as an attachment to the

tabled copy of the Committee's Report to the Senate.

Department of Education

Australian Capital Territory Schools Authority News,

Number 8/85, dated 12 September 1985.

Patterns of retention in Australian government schools:

summary report.

Selected University Statistics 1984, Commonwealth

Tertiary Education Commission.

Equal Employment Opportunity Management Program, First

Report to the Public Service Board, Department of

Education, October 1985.

Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment

Australia Council Budget Decisions for 1985-86, dated

16 September 1985.

Australia Council Annual Report 1984-85, Extract from

final draft.

Department of Sport, Recreation and Tourism

Tourism Overseas Promotion Scheme Guidelines.

Department of Aboriginal Affairs

Departmental Guidelines.

Departmental Financial Guidelines for Grants.

139.

■

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

■

THE SENATE

Thursday, 12 September 1985

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 10

MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 11.30am in Senate Committee Room No.6.

RESIGNATION OF CHAIRMAN: Senator Reynolds announced her decision to resign as Chairman.

ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: The Secretary then called for nominations for Chairman. Senator Colston was nominated by Senator Reynolds. There being no further nominations, Senator Colston was declared elected and thereupon took the Chair.

RESOLUTIONS: The Chairman reported Resolutions of the Senate dated 22 and 23 August 1985 relating to changes in membership of Estimates Committees and the reference of Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1985-86 and Departmental Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance 1984-85.

MANNER OF EXAMINING ESTIMATES: The Committee agreed to proceed with the examination of Departmental Estimates in the following order:

Education Arts, Heritage and Environment Housing and Construction Sport, Recreation and Tourism

Aboriginal Affairs .

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 11.35am.

ATTENDANCE: Senators Peter Baume, Colston, Puplick and Reynolds. Apologies were received from Senators Morris and Watson.

CONFIRMED:

, / / <

M A L C O L S T O N

C h a i r m a n

143.

THE SENATE

Thursday, 12 September 1985

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 11

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 11.37am in Senate Committee Room No.6. The Chairman (Senator Colston) took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Estimates.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85 - DEPARTMEK' OF EDUCATION: In attendance - Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Education Mr A.G. Abrahart, Acting Deputy Secretary Dr A. Taloni, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division Mr P.J. Bowler, First Assistant Secretary, General Student

Assistance Division Mr J.M. Parr, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Education Programs Division Mr J.J. Wilson, Special Adviser, Policy and Resource Planning

Division Mr R.N. Allen, Director, Australian Capital Territory Office of Technical and Further Education Mr R.T. Kinnaird, Acting First Assistant Secretary, General

Policy and Research Division Mr P. Hughes, Chairman, National Aboriginal Education Committei Mr J.P. Burnett, Assistant Secretary, Participation and Equity Branch Mr P.W. Hickey, Assistant Secretary, Tertiary Education

and Resource Planning Branch Mr R.G. Harvey, Acting Assistant Secretary, Planning and Budgeting Branch Mr P.B. Kearns, Assistant Secretary, Territorial Policy

and Co-ordination Branch Miss J.L. Miller, Assistant Secretary, International Education Branch Mr E.S. Rolfe, Assistant Secretary, Research and Statistics

Branch Mr N. Van Weelden, Acting Deputy Director, Overseas Student Office Mr G.D. Fowler, Director, Language Education Branch Mr J.W. Morey, Director, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination

Branch Mr B.F. Lanagan, Registrar of Schools, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch Mr E. Smith, Deputy Director, Estimates and Co-ordination

144.

Ms J.G. Blomfield, Deputy Director, Human Resource Budgeting Dr S. Borthwick, Executive Officer, National Advisory and Co-ordinating Committee on Multicultural Education Mr G.J. Franklin, Director, Statistics and Secondary Student

Assistance Section Mr J . Mears, Finance Officer, Australian Capital Territory Office of Technical and Further Education

Australian Capital Territory Schools Authority: Dr A.W. Butterfield, Director, Resources Miss T.C. Reilly, Principal Executive Officer, Finance and Computing

Commonwealth Schools Commission: Ms D. Mildern, First Assistant Secretary, Schools General Programs Dr J.F. McMorrow, First Assistant Commissioner, Policy

Development and Resources Mr B.P. Peck, Assistant Commissioner, Services to Schools Dr K. Kennedy, Director, Curriculum Development Centre

Division Mr P.R. Cameron, Assistant Secretary, Capital Grants Ms P.M. Karmel, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Policy

Development Mr B.M. Cox, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Services to students Mr W.L. Daniels, Assistant Secretary, Operations Mr N. Buck, Equity Programs Ms N. Mooney, Equity Programs Mr M. Howard, Administration-Finance Mr C. Davison, Program Finance

Commonwealth Tertiary Education Commission: Mr J . Mullarvey, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Statistics Branch Mr D.A. Brewster, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Resources

Planning Branch

Australian National University: Professor A.D. Barton, Treasurer Mr H.A. Jones, Head, Finance and Accounts Mr J.A. Brayshaw, Budget Officer

Canberra College of Advanced Education: Mr G . McL. Eadie, Registrar-Secretary Mr W.C. Dwyer, Bursar

Department of Finance Ms C.F. Low, Senior Finance Officer 1, Budget and Public Debt Section, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division Mr K. O'Neil, Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division Mr G . Hirst, Chief Finance Officer 2, Education Branch Mr T. Wall, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division

145.

The Minister made a brief statement. The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions 270-284 (Document A) Divisions 848-855 (Document B) Divisions 270-282 (Document D)

The Australian Capital Territory Schools Authority tabled a copy of "News", dated 12 September 1985.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Education, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information

to the Committee.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85 - DEPARTMEN OF ARTS, HERTITAGE AND ENVIRONMENT

In attendance - Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment Mr A.G. Kerr, Deputy Secretary Mr M. Bourke, First Assistant Secretary, Arts, Film and Heritage Division Mr K. Thompson, First Assistant Secretary, Environment

Policy Division Mr D. Gascoine, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Environment Contaminants Division Mr C.D. Pitson, Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination and

Management Services Branch Mr B. Zanetti, Director, Finance and Services, Co-ordination and Management Services Branch

National Film and Sound Archive Mr G.H. Gilmour, Acting Director

Australian Archives Mr B. Cox, Director-General

Australia Council Dr D. Yerbury, General Manager Mr J. Kitney, Director, Management Services Mr R. Adams, Director, Arts Co-ordination

Australian Film and Television School Mr F. Morgan, Deputy Director

Australian Film Commission Mr K. Williams, Chief Executive Mr B.J. Gittings, General Manager, Corporate Services

Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority Dr D. Kinsey, Executive Officer Mr M. Hunter, Finance Officer

146.

National Library of Australia Mr W. Horton, Director-General Mr P. Hawker, Assistant Director-General, Co-ordination and Management Division

Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service Mr J. Crennan, Principal Executive Officer Mr N. Gare, Deputy Director

Australian National Gallery Mr J. Mollison, Director Mr M. Claasz, Financial Manager

Museum of Australia Dr D.F. McMichael, Director Mr B. Palmer, Assistant Director, Resources Management

Australian Heritage Commission Mr C. Griffiths, Director Mr P. Cheah, Assistant Director, Administration

Office of the Supervising Scientist Mr R.M. Fry, Supervising Scientist Ms D. Taylor, Head of Management Services

Department of Finance -Mr K. O'Neil, Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division Mr T. Wall, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division Mr L. Crossfield, Education and Employment Division

The Minister made an introductory statement.

The Chairman called on Divisions 136, 143 and 149 (Document A) for consideration. The Australia Council tabled extracts from the Final Draft of its Annual Report 1984-85.

The Committee having concluded its consideration of Division 149 suspended its hearing of the Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.33pm.

ATTENDANCE: Senators Peter Baume, Colston, Morris, Puplick, Reynolds and Watson. Senators Collard and Hamer also attended.

CONFIRMED:

/ · ? / ( . . / / . - L·

M A L C O L S T O N

C h a i r m a n

147 .

THE SENATE

Tuesday, 17 September 1985

MEETING: The Committee met at 3.52pm in Senate Committee Room No.6. The Chairman (Senator Colston) took the Chair.

PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85 - DEPARTMENT OF ARTS, HERITAGE AND ENVIRONMENT

In attendance - Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment Mr A.G. Kerr, Deputy Secretary

Mr M. Bourke, First Assistant Secretary, Arts, Film and Heritage Division Mr K. Thompson, First Assistant Secretary, Environment Policy Division Mr D. Gascoine, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Environment Contaminants Division Mr C. Pitson, Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination and Management Services Branch Mr B. Zanetti, Director, Finance and Services,

Co-ordination and Management Services Branch

National Film and Sound Archive Mr G.H. Gilmour, Acting Director .

Australian Archives Mr B . Cox, Director-General Mr A. Pearlman, Acting Assistant Director-General, Management

Australian Film and Television School Mr F. Morgan, Deputy Secretary

Australian Film Commission Mr K. Williams, Chief Executive Mr B.J. Gittings, General Manager, Corporate Services

National Library of Australia Mr W. Horton, Director-General Mr P. Hawker, Assistant Director-General, Co-ordinati and Management Division

Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service Mr J. Crennan, Principal Executive Director Mr N. Gare, Deputy Director

Australian National Gallery Mr J. Mollison, Director Mr M. Claasz, Financial Manager 148.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 12

Museum of Australia Dr D.F. McMichael, Director Mr B. Palmer, Assistant Director, Resources Management

Australian Heritage Commission Mr C. Griffiths, Director Mr P . Cheah, Assistant Director, Administration

Department of Finance Mr K. O'Neil, Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division Mr T. Wall, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division Mr L. Crossfield, Senior Finance Officer, Education and Employment Division

The Chairman called on Divisions 130 to 147 (Document A) for consideration.

The Department tabled information on Australia Council Budget Decisions for 1985-86.

The Committee having concluded its consideration of Division 147 suspended its hearing of the Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.38 pm.

ATTENDANCE: Senators Peter Baume, Colston, Morris, Puplick and Watson. An apology was received from Senator Reynolds. Senators Boswell, Collard, Hamer and Vigor also attended.

CONFIRMED:

7 i - ■ i

MAL COLSTON Chairman

149.

THE SENATE

Tuesday, 1 October 1985

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 13

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 9.04am in Senate Committee Room No.6. The Chairman (Senator Colston) took the Chair.

2. CHANGE IN MEMBERSHIP: The Chairman reported that Senator Coates had replaced Senator Reynolds as a member of the Committee( pursuant to Resolution of the Senate dated 19 September 1985.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR 1985-86 AND EXPENDITURE UNDER THE ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE 1984-85 -

DEPARTMENT OF ARTS, HERITAGE AND ENVIRONMENT:

In attendance - Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

DEPARTMENT OF ARTS, HERITAGE AND ENVIRONMENT Mr K. Thompson, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr M. Bourke, First Assistant Secretary, Arts, Film and Heritage Division

Mr D. Gascoine, First Assistant Secretary, Environment Contaminants Division Mr C. Pitson, Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination and Manage­ ment Services Branch Mr B . Zanetti, Director, Finances and Services, Co-ordination,

and Management Services Branch

Museum of Australia Mr B. Palmer, Assistant Director, Resources Management

Australian Heritage Commission Mr C. Griffiths, Director Mr P. Cheah, Assistant Director

Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service Mr M. Hill, Assistant Director Mr J. Crennan, Director, Financial Services

Department of Finance Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and 1 Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consider­ ation .

Division 148 (Document A) Divisions 811-814 (Document B) ·

Division 344 (Document D)

150.

The Committee continued and concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Arts, Heritage and Environment subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the

Committee.

P A R T I C U L A R S O F P R O P O S E D E X P E N D I T U R E F O R 1985-86 A N D E X P E N D I T U R E

U N D E R T H E A D V A N C E T O T H E M I N I S T E R F O R F I N A N C E 1984-85 -

D E P A R T M E N T O F SPORT, R E C R E A T I O N A N D T O U R I S M :

In attendance - Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

D E P A R T M E N T O F S P O R T , R E C R E A T I O N A N D T O U R I S M

Mr B. MacDonald, Secretary Mr D. Mazitelli, Assistant Secretary, Sports, Facilities and Events Ms J. Harrison, Assistant Secretary, Recreation, Fitness

and Safety Mr K.J. Nielson, Assistant Secretary, Facilities and Projects Mr J . Lleonart, First Assistant Secretary, Information

Services Division Mr R. Hargreaves, Director, Printing, Australian Government Publishing Service Mr J . Malone, Acting General Manager, Australian Information

Service Mr R. Mills, Assistant Secretary, International Expositions Mr K. Fairbrother, Assistant Secretary, Secretariat and Co-ordination Branch Mr A. Barden, Director, Resource Management Section Mr R . Sliwka, Estimates Officer, Resource Management

Section

A u s t r a l i a n S p o r t s C o m m i s s i o n Mr G. Hartung, General Manager Mr M. Weeks, Director, Management and Planning Section

A u s t r a l i a n T o u r i s t C o m m i s s i o n Mr J. Angel, Acting General Manager Mr J . Brace, Director, Program Planning and Evaluation

A u s t r a l i a n I n s t i t u t e of S p o r t

Dr J . Cheffers, Executive Director Mr P. Brettell, General Manager Mr B . Hobson, Administrator, Finance and Accounts

D e p a r t m e n t o f F i n a n c e Mr T . Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division Mr R. Webb, Senior Finance Officer, Education and Employment

Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consider­ ation :

Divisions 590-593 (Document A) Divisions 956-958 (Document B) Divisions 592, 811-958 (Document D)

151.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Sport, Recreation and Tourism subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee. P A R T I C U L A R S O F P R O P O S E D E X P E N D I T U R E F O R 1985-86 A N D E X P E N D I T U R E

U N D E R T H E A D V A N C E T O T H E M I N I S T E R F O R F I N A N C E 1984-85 -

D E P A R T M E N T O F H O U S I N G A N D C O N S T R U C T I O N :

In attendance - Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers: D E P A R T M E N T O F H O U S I N G A N D C O N S T R U C T I O N

Mr K.J. Rodda, O.B.E., E.D., Deputy Secretary Mr B.J. Wight, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Housing Policy Division Mr R.G. Pitt, A/g First Assistant Secretary, Management Mr H.J. Milton, Assistant Secretary, Works Programming

S n o w y M o u n t a i n s E n g i n e e r i n g C o r p o r a t i o n

Mr D.G. Price, Director

D e p a r t m e n t o f F i n a n c e Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division Mr D. Gniel, Chief Finance Officer, Defence and Government

Division Mr K. Sweeney, Chief Finance Officer, Defence and Government Division Ms K. Flanagan, Senior Finance Officer, Social Security Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consider­ ation .

Divisions 352-356, 245, 246, 248 (Document A) Divisions 896-897 (Document B) Division 896 (Document D)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Housing and Construction subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

P A R T I C U L A R S O F P R O P O S E D E X P E N D I T U R E F O R 1985-86 A N D E X P E N D I T U R E

U N D E R T H E A D V A N C E T O T H E M I N I S T E R F O R F I N A N C E 1984-85 -

D E P A R T M E N T O F A B O R I G I N A L A F F A I R S :

In attendance - Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education, accompanied by the following officers:

D E P A R T M E N T O F A B O R I G I N A L A F F A I R S Harvey Jacka, Deputy Secretary Don O'Rourke, First Assistant Secretary, Program Development George Menham, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Communicate

ions and Special Services Kevin Martin, Assistant Secretary, Information Bill Miller, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management Ken Wanganeen, Assistant Secretary, Management Operations Phil Mackenzie, Assistant Secretary, Education, Employment '

and Training

152.

Kerry Wisdom, Acting Assistant Secretary, Community Develop­ ment and Support Bill Oakes, Assistant Secretary, Health Tony Jenkins, Assistant Secretary, Program Support Mike Strokowsky, Acting Assistant Secretary, Heritage

Administration Geoff Bissaker, Acting Assistant Secretary, Budget

Aboriginal Development Commission Rob Winroe, General Manager Peter McMahon, Assistant General Manager Bill Roller, Assistant General Manager, Operations

Michael Stewart, Assistant General Manager, Policy Daryl Cathro, Branch Manager, Finance Owen Pidgeon, Assistant Branch Manager, Finance Bob Powell, Budget/Investments Officer, Finance

Aboriginal Hostels Limited Bob Clarke, Acting General Manager Jim Ramsay, Assistant General Manager Jim Rooks, Manager, Finance Division Steve Untaru, Development & Construction Division Terry Garwood, Divisional Manager, Third Party Grants

Program

Australian Institute of Aboriginal Studies Warwick Dix, Principal Tibor Varga, Finance Officer

Department of Finance Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and Accounting Policy Division Mr J. Wanless, Senior Finance Officer, Social Security

Division

The Minister made a statement.

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consider­ ation :

Divisions 120-125 (Document A) Divisions 804-806 (Document B) Division 120 (Document D)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 4.25 pm.

ATTENDANCE: Senators Peter Baume, Coates, Colston, Puplick and Watson. An apology was received from Senator Morris.

C O N F I R M E D :

153

Mai Colston Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D

Minutes of Proceedings

No. 14

Thursday, 10 October 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 9.55am in Senate Committee Rod No.5. The Chairman (Senator Colston) took the Chair.

2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of Meetings held on September 1985 (Nos 10 and 11), 17 September 1985 (No.12) and October 1985 (No.13) were confirmed.

3. REPORT OF COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the Chairman's draff Report to the Senate.

The Committee resolved that the draft Report be agreed tfi subject to amendment of the item on the Commonwealth Schooll Commission and the inclusion of items relating to the Natiom' Library, Australian Film Commission, ACT Schools Authority art printing of the Commonwealth Government Directory.

4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.00am.

5. ATTENDANCE: Senators Peter Baume, Coates, Colston, Morris, Pup1i d and Watson.

CERTIFIED CORRECT:

, y , / /'

" Mai Colston Chairman

154.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E REPORT TO THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee E has the honour to present its Report

to the Senate.

1. On 23 August 1985, the Senate referred to the Committee

the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure For the Service

of the year ending on 30 June 1986, Particulars of

Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the year

ending on 30 June 1986 and Expenditure under the

Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended

30 June 1985, for the following Departments -

Department of Defence

Department of the Attorney-General

Department of Resources and Energy

Department of Foreign Affairs (including the

Australian Development Assistance Bureau) and

Department of the Special Minister of State. 2

2. The Committee has considered the Particulars of

Proposed Expenditure and Departmental Expenditure

together with the Departmental Explanatory Notes and

has received explanations in relation to them from the

Minister for Resources and Energy (Senator the

Honourable G.J. Evans Q.C.) and officers of the

Departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of

Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken

by the Committee are tabled for the information of the

Senate in connection with its consideration of

Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1985-86, Appropriation Bill

(No. 2) 1985-86 and Expenditure under the Advance to

the Minister for Finance 1984-85. Written answers to

157.

questions which were taken on notice are also tabled in

the Senate and incorporated in the final Hansard report

of the Committee's hearings. Additional papers tabled

during the public hearings are attached to this report?

The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

following matters arising from its consideration of the

Estimates.

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE

The Committee draws the attention of Senators to three

matters.

Division 245 of Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1985-86

includes provision for a 36 bed hospital to be

constructed at Duntroon in the ACT at a cost of $4.1

million, to service a population of approximately 2,000

people. The Committee was concerned with the level of

and justification for this expenditure.

After questioning the military witnesses, the Estimates

Committee had great difficulty in accepting that the

expenditure of $4.1 million for a 36 bed hospital would

represent a cost-effective appropriation, when it

appeared that considerable excess hospital capacity

existed among the three current Canberra hospitals. As

was pointed out1 during the hearing -

"There are many communities comprising more than 1400 people who are old and

infirm, which do not have a $4m

hospital".

Senator MacGibbon, Senate Hansard, Estimates

Committee 1E 1, 12 September 1985, page 255. 1

Conclusion

7. Given the time constraints on the Estimates Committee's

procedures, the Committe has no concluded view on the

wisdom of this expenditure and is not in a position to

comment on the extent of surplus hospital capacity in

Canberra. Nor does it wish to question the conclusions

of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works

which did not, as the Estimates Committee must,

specifically address the cost of the Hospital in the

context of the Estimates.

8. However, the Committee wishes to draw the expenditure

to the attention of Senators in connection with their

consideration of Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1985-86.

Project Costs - 1984 Undertaking

9. In Report to the Senate, October 1984, Estimates

Committee 1E ' , at paragraph 13, it states that the

Committee -

"... requested that future tables [under Division 234, Equipment and Stores, Sub-Division 1, New Equipment and Stores, Sub-item 01, Major Projects] include an additional column showing the original Project cost [of Major Equipment

Projects]. The Committee would then have before it information on the cost

escalation for contracts. The Committee thanks the Department for its undertaking to provide this additional information in future."

10. This undertaking was given to the Committee in public

session by a very senior official with responsibility

for Programs and Budgets . The Committee in its 1984

Report complimented the Department on the very useful

tables included in the 1984/85 Explanatory Notes.

2 Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee Έ ', 13

September 1984, page 306.

159.

Indeed, in the 1984/85 Explanatory Notes the Department

displayed 6 pages of tables itemising expenditure on

Major Equipment Projects under 4 sub-items, being Naval

Construction, Aircraft and associated initial equipment

and stores, Armoured and combat vehicles, artillery and

associated equipment and stores and Other equipment and

stores.

11. The Committee regrets that in the Explanatory Notes for

1985/86 the Department not only failed to honour its

undertaking to incorporate Project Costs, but also

reduced, to a very considerable extent, the quantity of

information tabulated for Senators' information. The

Committee's examination of the Estimates was prolonged

and hampered as a result.

Conclusion

12. The Committee again requests that the Department

implement its 1984 undertaking to display Project Costs

in Estimate's Explanatory Notes. The Committee also

asks that, for future Estimates Committees, the details

of Division 234, Equipment and Stores, be restored to

that presented in 1984.

Hire of Equipment and Stores

13. Division 234, Sub-division 2, Sub-item 04, relates to

proposed expenditure on Equipment and Stores, including

the hiring of equipment. At pages 153 to 154 of the

Explanatory Notes dissections are provided and reasons

are given for expenditure variations.

14. The expenditure for category (a) - Hire of Equipment

and Stores in 1983/84 was $5,130 million (rounded) and

expenditure in 1984/85 was $6,562 million. The 1985/86

Estimate is set at $8,526 million.

160.

15. The Committee notes that the 1984/85 Estimate was set

at $10,843 million, and at the time of the Additional

Estimates, in April 1985, the Department requested

further monies to arrive at a revised estimate of

$11,626 million. Thus, in mid-April 1985, within 10

weeks of the end of the financial year, the

Department's requirements were over $5 million dollars

in excess of what it was later shown actually to have

spent.

Conclusion

16. The Committee will look closely at the 1986 Additional

Estimates for this head of expenditure.

Hire of Aircraft

17. The hire of aircraft by the Defence Forces, for

activities which appear to be regularly recurring, has

been of concern to the Committee for some time. The

Committee has not yet received a convincing explanation

that hiring is more economical than purchase of an

aircraft, which would also perform other functions.

18. The question was raised by Senator Reynolds in

connection with the Estimates for 1984/85~^. The

Explanatory Notes for that year referred, at page 155,

to an increase of $1.66 million being in respect of

"increased hire of aircraft for target towing".

19. In the Additional Estimates in April 1985, the

Department sought a further $180,000 for this purpose

(Explanatory Notes on Appropriation Bill (No. 3)

3 Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee ’E', 13

September 1984, page 307.

161.

1984-85) and this expenditure was again the subject of 4

close questioning by the Committee . In a written

answer to an Estimates Committee question on notice,

it was indicated that

"the cost per hour to hire a Lear jet is currently $2,073 for aircraft for gun calibration testing and $2,364 for target towing"

20. This year, once again, the issue was raised6. Although

the Explanatory Notes do not disclose the proposed

expenditure on the hire of aircraft for towing

purposes, a senior official stated

"the forecast of expenditure this

financial year [in the hiring of private aircraft to provide Fleet support] is $2.6 million, largely for the purpose of towing targets".

21. In written answers to questions taken on notice it was

stated7 that there is a continuing requirement for

commercial contract aircraft to supplement the ADF

aviation facilities for both high speed and low speed

target towing. In terms of volume, private hire needs

were stated to be as follows -

4 Senate Hansard, Estimates 1985, pages 229-230. Committee Έ' , 18 April

5 Estimates Committee 'E', Additional Information, May 1985, page 6.

6 Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee Έ ' 12

September 1985, pages 234, 235.

7 Estimates Committee 'E' Additional Information, October 1985.

162.

1983-84

Learjet - 447.3 hours (High speed target towing)

Piper Aztec - 365.08 hours (Low speed target

towing)

Cessna 402B/Beech Baron 56TC - 70.5 hours

(Photogrammetry exercises)

Total Cost $1,331,723

1984-85

Learjet - 354.8 hours (High speed target towing)

Piper Aztec - 495 hours (Low speed target towing)

Cessna 402B/Beech Baron 56TC - 45.9 hours

(Photogrammetry exercises)

Total cost $1,743,409

Thus the cost of Lear jet hire for target towing was

$932,173 in 1983-84 and $739,403 in 1984-85

The Department explained that Air Force requirements

for Lear jet hire for target towing vary from year to

year. For 1984-85 Learjet hire totalling $1.7m was

approved for target towing and radar targetting. It

was stated that it was not readily possible to isolate

hire costs for target towing only.

Conclusion

22. The Committee draws to the attention of the Senate the

need for completion of a proper study of the

cost-effectiveness of recurring hire of aircraft for

target towing and other purposes. The Committee will

again examine this question at the Additional Estimates

and ask for the written results of such a study.

163.

Extra-materials provided by the Department

23. Prior to its hearings, the Committee was pleased to

receive from the Department Supplementary Explanatory

Notes on Division 240 Defence Co-operation Programs

(see appendix 1 to this Report) *. This detailed

compilation of information answered in advance many of

the purely factual questions which Senators may

otherwise have had to ask to obtain relevant

information. The Committee commends the Department for

its timely submission of this additional information

and looks forward to receiving similar background

material for future Estimates. It is hoped that

Senators will make use of such material and thus save

the time of the Committee for other questioning.

DEPARTMENT OF THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL

Judicial Handbook of Terms and Conditions of

Appointment

24. Witnesses before the Committee were questioned in some

detail about various allowances paid to senior federal

judges. It was noted that Handbooks describing the

terms and conditions of appointment of Federal Court

Judges had been published and that a similar Handbook

concerning Family Court Judges was in the course of

preparation.

25. It appeared from the evidence that as far as the High

Court was concerned no similar document is being

contemplated.

164.

Conclusion

26. The Committee considered that it would facilitate its

future consideration of those Estimates relating to the

Administration of Courts and Tribunals (Division 170)

if such a Handbook was to be prepared and made

available.

Institute of Family Studies

27. Division 180 of the Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1985/86

relates to the Institute of Family Studies. Sub-item 12

in Sub-division 2, Administrative Expenses, in the

Explanatory Notes, shows that proposed expenditure on

Publishing and Dissemination of information will drop

from $145,518 in 1984/85 to a proposed 1985/86 Estimate

of $25,000, a reduction of some $120,518.

28. This is a relatively small sum, but an eloquent and

persuasive Director of the Institute pointed to a

catalogue of consequences which will flow from it, in

particular an inability to publish 7 major research

reports® which have been completed over the past 2

years. The subject matter of these Reports concerns

youth leaving home, young people's attitudes to

marriage, the survival of young marriages with children

and the effects of divorce on children and adolescents.

The publication of a further 6 reports, nearing

completion, will inevitably be postponed due to lack of

funds. 8

8 Evidence was given that a commercial publisher has been found for one other Report dealing with the economic consequences of divorce.

165.

Conclusion

29. The Committee draws to the attention of the Senate the

question of the cost-effectiveness of statutory bodies

doing and commissioning highly significant youth and

family research which is not given timely publication

because of relatively minor appropriations cut backs.

DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (INCLUDING ADAB)

30. Proposed expenditure by the Department of Foreign

Affairs, including the Australian Development

Assistance Bureau, was the subject of detailed

questioning by the Committee but again was

foreshortened by ADAB's decision to supply extensive

Additional Notes concerning Bi-lateral Aid Projects

(see appendix 2)*. The Committee thanks the Bureau for

this material and looks forward to the supply of

similar data for future Estimates.

DEPARTMENT OF SPECIAL MINISTER OF STATE

31. Examination of Divison 579, concerning proposed

expenditure in excess of $15 million for Parliamentary

and Ministerial Staff and Services, gave rise to a

number of questions taken on notice. Public service

witnesses pointed out, on two occasions, that the 9

extraction of relevant information would be difficult .

32. A Senator attending the Committee's hearing asked9 10 on

notice for a statement of the cost to the Department of

answering the Committee's questions on notice under

9 Mr. O'Neil, Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee 1E 1, 19 September 1985, pages 849 and 850.

10 Senator Vigor, Senate Hansard, Estimates Committee Έ', 19 September 1985, pages 850-851.

166.

this Division. In response11 the Department stated

that 150.5 staff hours of work had been expended in

preparing written answers to 8 questions on notice

arising from this one Division, at a cost of $2407.41.

GENERAL POINTS

Use of Auditor-General's Report

33. As in previous years, the Committee was able to make

considerable use of the Report of the Auditor-General,

tabled in Parliament on 10 September 1985 some days

before the Committee's public hearings. The Report is

an important source of informed and critical analysis

of aspects of Departmental expenditure which will

frequently provide a -background to Committee

questioning and its availability before the Estimates

Committee's hearings is highly desirable.

Ministerial Attendance on the Committee

34. The Committee's public hearings were affected at times

on one day of the hearings because of the Minister's

attendance at Cabinet meetings held to finalise the

taxation package. Because of this, the commencement

time for the Committee was somewhat uncertain on that

day, and the answering of some questions raising policy

issues was deferred.

35. The Committee is pleased to note, that following some

disruption of the timing of the Committee's hearings,

the Minister made himself available on an additional

evening to accommodate the Committee.

', A d ditional Information, 11 Estimates Committee ' E October 1985.

167.

36. The Committee notes that the program of hearings for

the Committee was determined and circulated as early as

23 August 1985 and it is unfortunate that the timing of

other, admittedly pressing, engagements of Senators

conflicted with the Committee's timetable.

37. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the

assistance given to it by the Minister for Resources

and Energy and the officers of the departments and

authorities who appeared before the Committee and

answered questions or subsequently provided written

answers to questions.

Attendance of Other Senators

38. The Committee was pleased to note the attendance, at

various times during the hearings, of twenty-three

Senators, other than the Minister and members of the

Committee. The Committee welcomed the attendance of

these Senators and notes the contribution they made

with questions and requests for further information on

matters of interest to them.

A. Olive Zakharov Chair

Senate Estimates Committee1 E '

*Note: A copy of Appendix 1 and Hansard of Supplementary Committee.

October 1985

Appendix 2 is included in the Information supplied to the

168.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

THE SENATE

Tuesday, 10 September 1985

1 . MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 1 .49 p.m.

in Committee Room No. 4. The meeting was called to order.

2. ELECTION OF CHAIR: Entries in the Journals of the Senate of

26 March 1985 and 22 August 1985 appointing the Committee, and

23 August 1985 were reported referring to the particulars of

proposed expenditure for service of the year ending on 30 June

1986, particulars of certain proposed expenditure for the year

ending on 30 June 1986 and expenditure under the Advance to the

Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 June 1985 for the

following Departments:

Resources and Energy Attorney-General's Special Minister of State Foreign Affairs (including ADAB) Defence

3. Nominations were called for a Senator to take the Chair.

Senator Zakharov was nominated by Senator Black. There being no

other nominations Senator Zakharov took the Chair.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86: The Committee

resolved to examine Departmental Estimates in the following

order:

Thursday 12 September 1985 - Department of Defence

Department of Resources

and Energy Attorney-General's Department

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 6

171.

Tuesday 17 September 1985 - Department of Foreign Affairs

(including ADAB)

Department of Special Minister

of State.

5. CIRCULATION OF PAPERS: The Committee received the following

documents:

(i) Department of Defence, Explanatory Notes - Budget

Estimates 1985-86. Division 240. Defence Co-operation.

Synopsis.

(ii) Australian Development Assistance Bureau, Australian

Bilateral Aid Program 1985-86.

6. ADJOURNMENT: The meeting was adjourned at 1.55 p .m. until

11.30 a.m. on Thursday 12 September 1985 in the Senate Chamber.

7. ATTENDANCE: Senator A.O. Zakharov (Chair)

Senator J.R. Black

Senator B.C. Teague

8. APOLOGIES: Senator T. Aulich

Senator the Honourable Sir John Carrick

Senator D.J. MacGibbon

Confirmed:

A. Olive Zakharov Chair

172.

THE SENATE

Thursday, 12 September 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 11.30 a.m. in the Senate

Chamber. Senator Zakharov took the Chair.

2. STATEMENT BY CHAIR: The Chair reported the Resolutions of

the Senate on 23 August 1985, and made a statement relating to

the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination

of the Estimates.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C.,

Minister for Resources and Energy representing the Minister for

Defence accompanied by the following officers:

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 7

Mr J.M. Moten, Acting Deputy Secretary B

Wing Commander A. Aldridge, Director (Administration), Defence

Academy

Mr E. Antoney, Acting Assistant Secretary, Budget Accounting and

Supply (ODP)

Mr D.W. Anderson, First Assistant Secretary, Technical Services

and Logistics Development

Brigadier P.R. Badman, Director-General, Operations and Plans,

Army

Mr G.E. Barlow, Deputy Chief Defence Scientist

Mr A.M. Beveridge, Assistant Secretary Administrative Services

173.

Mr M. J. Cassells, Director-General, Defence Housing

Mr L.A. Davey, Acting Assistant Secretary, Defence Facilities

Program Management

Mr K. Dean, Principal Executive Officer, Budget and Financial

Services (Defence Academy)

Captain K. Doolan, Director of Naval Plans

Mr R.K. Ellis, Assistant Director, Natural Disasters

Organisation (Policy and Support)

Mr R.H. Englund, Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy and

Requirements

Air Vice-Marshal R.G. Funnel1, Assistant Chief of Defence Force

(Policy)

Air Vice-Marshal A .E. Heggen, Chief of Air Force Materiel

Mr P.A. Hemsley, Assistant Secretary, Science and Technology

Administration

Mr P.R. Huntley, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning

(Central)

Mr D. Hawke, Acting Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning

(Army)

Commodore I.F. Holmes, Director-General, Fleet Maintenance

Mr M.H. Ives, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Programs and

Budgets

Commodore P.H. James, Director-General, Service Conditions

Mr E. Kruck, Acting Assistant Secretary, Project Co-ordination

Computer Services

Brigadier G.J. Loughton, Acting Chief of Materiel, Army

Mr L.E. Ludovici, Assistant Secretary, Defence Force Industrial

Dr M.K. McIntosh, First Assistant Secretary, Defence Industrial

and Materiel Policy

Mr J.E. McMahon, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning, Navy

Mr M.C. Morrison, First Assistant Secretary, Defence Industry

Development

Mr M.L. Murdoch, Acting Chief Executive Officer, Logistic

Resources Programs

Mr M.J. Murray, Special Adviser, Resources Procurement

Mr J.A. Nockels, Senior Assistant Secretary, International

Policy

174.

Mr P.M. Oldham, Director, Finance and General Services

Colonel G.B. Sims, Project Officer, Army Training Facilities

Project

Major-General N.R. Smethurst, Assistant Chief of the Defence

Force (Operations)

Mr P.G. Terrill, First Assistant Secretary, Commercial

Air Commodore J.I. Thomson, Director-General, Operational

Requirements, Air Force

Mr L.A. Wallace, Assistant Secretary, Financial Programs

Rear-Admiral B.L. West, Chief of Naval Materiel

Mr E.P. Williams, Finance Planning and Co-ordination Computer

Services

Mr N.C. Yeend, Acting Assistant Secretary, Resources Policy Air

Force

DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

Mr G.L. Bartlett, Chief Finance Officer, Defence Branch

Mr B.J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer

Mr G.J. Ryle, Senior Finance Officer

Mr T. Monson, Acting Senior Finance Officer

The Chair called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 230, 232-234, 237, 239-241, 244-246,

248-250, 252 - $6,212,321,000 (Document A)

232-234, 256-257 - $31,052,166 (Document D)

The Committee concluded its examination of the Proposed

Expenditure and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister

for Finance for the Department of Defence, subject to

undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information.

175.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND ENERGY

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C.,

Minister for Resources and Energy, accompanied by the following officers:

DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND ENERGY

Mr B.J. Hill, Deputy Secretary

Mr G.C. Gorrie, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination

and Management Division

Mr P. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Coal and Minerals

Division

Mr A. Manderson, First Assistant Secretary, Water and

Development Division

Mr J.C. Starkey, First Assistant Secretary, Petroleum Division

Mr J.A. Carlson, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Uranium and

Nuclear Division

Dr W.B. Rotsey, First Assistant Secretary, Energy Research and

Development Division

Mr R. Layland, Assistant Secretary, Energy Conservation Branch

Mr A.A. Garran, Assistant Secretary, Test Site Management and

Investigations Branch

Mr C. Anson, Acting Assistant Secretary, Uranium Industry Branch

Professor R.W.R. Rutland, Director, Bureau of Mineral Resources

Mr C. Veenstra, Director, Division of National Mapping

Australian Atomic Energy Commission

Dr D.G. Walker, Chief Executive Officer and Director, Research

Establishment

The Pipeline Authority

Mr T.R. Baker, Executive Member

176.

DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

Mr B.J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer

Mr G.J. Ryle, Senior Finance Officer

The Chair called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 520-523, 525 - $171 ,530,000 (Document A)

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.30 p.m.

the Honourable Sir John Garrick, MacGibbon and Teague. Senators

Michael Baume, Brownhill, Button, Chaney, Cooney,

Crichton-Browne, Durack, Hill, Kilgariff, Knowles, Messner,

Morris, Rae, Robertson and Tate also attended.

7. APOLOGY: Senator Black

942-944 - $156,741,000 (Document B)

520, 942-944 - $21 ,396,780 (Document D)

6. ATTENDANCE: Senator Zakharov (Chair) and Senators Aulich,

Confirmed:

A. Olive Zakharov Chai r

177.

THE SENATE

Thursday, 12 September 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at

10.32 p.m. in the Senate Chamber. Senator Zakharov took the

Chair.

2. PUBLICATION OF WRITTEN ANSWERS: On the motion of Senator

MacGibbon it was agreed that the Chair be authorised to release

written answers to questions provided subsequent to meetings of

the Committee.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.33 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: Senator A .0. Zakharov (Chair)

Senator the Honourable Sir John Garrick

Senator D.J. MacGibbon

5. APOLOGIES: Senator T. Aulich

Senator J.R. Black

Senator B.C. Teague

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 8

Confirmed:

A. Olive Zakharov Chair

178.

THE SENATE

Tuesday, 17 September 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.33 p.m. in the Senate Chamber. Senator Zakharov took the Chair.

2. REQUEST BY SENATOR TEAGUE. Senator Teague requested that,

in view of the delayed commencement of the meeting, the Chair

make inquiries from the Clerk of the Senate as to how

instructions were given to the witnesses and Hansard, to

retire.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND ENERGY

Consideration resumed from 12 September 1985

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C., Minister

for Resources and Energy accompanied by the following officers:

DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND ENERGY

Mr B.J. Hill, Deputy Secretary

Mr G.C. Gorrie, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination

and Management Division

Mr P. Ryan. First Assistant Secretary, Coal and Minerals

Division

Mr A. Manderson, First Assistant Secretary, Water and

Development Division

Mr J.C. Starkey, First Assistant Secretary, Petroleum Division

Mr G.F. Cadogan-Cowper, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Uranium and Nuclear Division

Dr W.B. Rotsey, First Assistant Secretary, Energy Research and

Development Division

Mr R . Layland, Assistant Secretary, Energy Conservation Branch

Mr A.A. Garran, Assistant Secretary, Test Site Management and

Investigations Branch

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 9

179.

Professor R.W.R. Rutland, Director, Bureau of Mineral Resources

Mr C. Veenstra, Director, Division of National Mapping

Australian Atomic Energy Commission

Dr P.M. Kelly, Deputy Director (Research)

Mr W.H. Ratcliff, Secretary-Manager, Administration

The Pipeline Authority

Mr T.R. Baker, Executive Member

DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

Mr B.J. C-leeson, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Mr C.L. Scholes, Chief Finance Officer, Transport and Industry

Division

Mr G.W. Britt, Senior Finance Officer, Transport and Industry

Division

The Chair called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 520-523, 525 - $171,530,000 (Document A)

942-944 - $156,741,000 (Document B)

520, 942-944 - $21,396,780 (Document D)

The Committee concluded its examination of the Proposed

Expenditure and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister

for Finance for the Department of Resources and Energy, subject

to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional

information.

180.

it. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C., Minister

for Resources and Energy representing the Attorney-General

accompanied by the following officers:

ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT

Mr L.G. Glare, Deputy Secretary

Mr L.J. Curtis, Deputy Secretary

Mr T.A. Sherman, Deputy Secretary

Mr J.L.M. Carnsew, First Assistant Secretary, Management

Division

Mr M.A. Cranswick, First Assistant Secretary, Community Affairs

Division

Mr R.C. Davey, First Assistant Secretary, Legal Services

Co-ordination Division

Mr J.H. Greenwell, First Assistant Secretary, Business Affairs

Division

Mr D. Edwards, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Special

Projects Division

Mr M. Haddrick, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Justice and

Administrative Law Division

Mr D . Maddern, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Office of

Consumer Affairs

Mr H. Woltring, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Criminal Law

and Security Division

Mr C.B. Fernando, Senior Assistant Secretary, Family Law Branch

Mr R.J. Morgan, Senior Assistant Secretary, Legal Services

Co-ordination Division

Mr R.G. Moss, Senior Assistant Secretary, Legal Aid Branch

Mr R. Chapman, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Financial

Assistant Branch

Mr I. Harvey, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, International

Trade Law Branch

181.

Mr M.D. Starr, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Companies and

Securities Branch

Mr P.E. Baskett, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch

Mr M.G. Dwyer, Assistant Secretary, Special Services Branch

Mr A.T. Green, Chief Reporter, Commonwealth Reporting Service

Mr T.N. Heming, Assistant Secretary, ADR Branch

Mr R. Smeaton, Assistant Secretary, Management Improvement

Branch

Mr P. Wenn, Inspector-General in Bankruptcy, Community Affairs

Division

Mr J. Howard, Registrar, Federal Court of Australia

Mr B. Knox, Principal Registrar, Family Court of Australia

Mr D. Ingwerson, Deputy Registrar, Administrative Appeals

Tribunal

Mr A.A. Hardiman, Acting Director, Legal Aid Commission (ACT)

Mr H. Spier, First Assistant Commissioner, Trade Practices

Commission

Mr L . Coombs, Assistant Commissioner, Trade Practices Commission

Dr D.E. Edgar, Director, Institute of Family Studies

Mr J.F. Thomson, Secretary, Human Rights Commission

Mr C. Bevan, Assistant Director, Australian Institute of

Criminology

Mr I. Cunliffe, Secretary and Director Research, Law Reform

Commission

Mrs D . Higgins, Assistant Director, Office of the Director of

Public Prosecutions

Mr G.C. Shannon, Clerk of Court, High Court of Australia

Mr G.K. Kelts, First Parliamentary Counsel

Mr R. Venables, Director, Finance

DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

Mr G.J. Ryle, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Mr T.S. Monson, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Mr T. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

182.

The Chair called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 165, 170, 175, 177-181, 1 84-190 - $217,792,000

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.39 p.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: Senator Zakharov (Chair) and Senators Aulich,

Black, the Honourable Sir John Garrick, MacGibbon and Teague.

Senators Boswell, Chaney, Crichton-Browne, Durack, Georges,

Hill, Jessop, Kilgariff, Parer and Vigor also attended.

(Document A)

818-821 - $62,702,000 (Document B)

175, 818, 821 - $401,800 (Document D)

Confirmed:ft.

A. Olive Zakharov Chair

183.

THE SENATE

Wednesday, 18 September 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 8.32 p.m. in the Senate

Chamber. Senator Zakharov took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT

Consideration resumed from 17 September 1985

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C., Minister

for Resources and Energy representing the Attorney-General

accompanied by the following officers:

ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 10

Mr L.G. Glare, Deputy Secretary

Mr L.J. Curtis, Deputy Secretary

Mr T.A. Sherman, Deputy Secretary

Mr J.L.M. Carnsew, First Assistant Secretary, Management

Division

Mr M.A. Cranswick, First Assistant Secretary, Community Affairs

Division

Mr R.C. Davey, First Assistant Secretary, Legal Services

Co-ordination Division

Mr M. Haddrick, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Justice and

Administrative Law Division

184.

Mr H. Woltring, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Criminal Law

and Security Division

Mr D . Wallace, Principal Legal Officer, Family Law Branch

Mr R.G. Moss, Senior Assistant Secretary, Legal Aid Branch

Mr M.D. Starr, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Companies and

Securities Branch

Mr P.E. Baskett, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch

Mr M.G. Dwyer, Assistant Secretary, Special Services Branch

Mr A.T. Green, Chief Reporter, Commonwealth Reporting Service

Mr P. Ward, Principal Programmer, ADP Branch

Mr R. Smeaton, Assistant Secretary, Management Improvement

Branch

Mr P. Wenn, Inspector-General in Bankruptcy, Community Affairs

Division

Mr I. Astolfi, Commissioner, Corporate Affairs Commission

Mr L. Pascoe, Senior Clerk, Business Affairs Division

Mr A.A. Hardiman, Acting Director, Legal Aid Commission (ACT)

Mr H. Spier, First Assistant Commissioner, Trade Practices

Commission

Mr L. Coombs, Assistant Commissioner, Trade Practices Commission

Mr J.F. Thomson, Secretary, Human Rights Commission

Mr C . Bevan, Assistant Director, Australian Institute of

Criminology

Mr P . Clark, Deputy Director, Office of the Director of Public

Prosecutions

Mrs D . Higgins, Assistant Director, Office of the Director of

Public Prosecutions

Mr G.C. Shannon, Clerk of Court, High Court of Australia

Mr G.K. Kelts, First Parliamentary Counsel

DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

Mr B.J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Mr G.J. Ryle, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

185.

Mr T.S. Monson, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

The Chair called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 165, 170, 175, 177-181 , 184-190 - $217,792,000

The Committee concluded its examination of the Proposed

Expenditure and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister

for Finance for the Attorney-General's Department subject to

undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.27 p.m.

4. ATTENDANCE: Senator Zakharov (Chair) and Senators Aulich,

Black, the Honourable Sir John Carrick, MacGibbon and Teague.

Senators Boswell, Chaney, Durack, Harradine, Kilgariff, Puplick,

Tate and Vigor also attended.

(Document A)

818-821 - $62,702,000 (Document B)

175, 818, 821 - $388, 594 (Document D)

Confirmed:

A. Olive Zakharov Chair

186.

THE SENATE

Thursday, 19 September 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.35 p.m. in Senate Committee

Rooms 1 and 2. Senator Zakharov took the Chair.

2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C., Minister

for Resources and Energy representing the Minister for Foreign

Affairs accompanied by the following officers:

DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 11

Mr R. Greet, Acting Deputy Secretary B

Nr M.G.D. Williams, First Assistant Secretary, Management and

Foreign Service Division

Mr R.D. Sturkey, Acting First Assistant Secretary, International

Organisations and Humanitarian Affairs Branch, South Asian,

Africa and Middle East Division

Mr H.M. Loveday, Assistant Secretary, Information and Cultural

Relations Branch

Mr G. Brady, Assistant Secretary, General Economic Branch

Mr G. Allen, Chief of Protocol, Protocol Section

Mr H. Allanson, Acting Assistant Secretary, Consular and

Passports Branch

187.

Mr J.R. Lyndon, Assistant Secretary, Systems Development Branch

Mr J.V. Lovegrove, Acting Assistant Secretary, Security and

Communications Branch

Mr J.M.C. Watson, Acting Assistant Secretary, International

Organisations and Humanitarian Affairs Branch

Mr K.B. Scott, Acting Assistant Secretary, Administrative

Services Branch

Mr D.A. Holloway, Acting Assistant Secretary, Disarmament-Arms

Control Branch

Mr M.P.F. Smith, Acting Assistant Secretary, Legal Activities

Branch

Mr G. Quinlan, Acting Senior Adviser, Economic Organisations

Branch

Mr M.R. Ovington, Head, Defence Plans and Policy Section

Mr J. Gleeson, Director, Resources Planning Liaison Unit

Mr B. Hickey, Director, Personnel Policy Section

Mr G.R.T. Bowker, Head, Multilateral Economic and Financial

Section

Mr W. Paterson, Disarmament-Arms Control Branch

Mr H. McMichael, Indonesia Section

Mr G.J. Thompson, Budget Officer, Finance Section

Mr B. Rowe, Acting Executive Officer, Australia-China Council

Mr H. Leece, Executive Officer, Resources Planning Liaison Unit

Mr D. Carew, Language Training Agency

Mr J. Sullivan, Peace and Disarmament Branch

Australian Development Assistance Bureau

Dr R.C. Manning, Acting Director-General

Mr G. Lawless, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Policy,

Planning and Multilateral Division

Mr J. Powell, Assistant Secretary, Program Planning and Review

Branch

Mr G. Martin, Acting Assistant Secretary, Operations Support

Branch

Dr J.R. Baker, Assistant Secretary, Jackson Follow-up Team

188.

Mr M.R. Casson, Assistant Secretary, Multilateral and

Non-government Programs Branch

Mr D.S. Campbell, Assistant Secretary, Pacific, Asia, Africa

Programs Branch

Mr L.R. Watters, Acting Assistant Secretary, South East Asia

Programs Branch

Mr E. Ingevics, Assistant Secretary, Special Duties

Mr R.E. Stensholt, Assistant Secretary, Development Training

Branch

Dr R.C. Hills, Head, Research for Development Section

Mr A. Macdonald, Head, Strategic Planning Section

Mr R. Peacock, Head, Food Aid Unit

Mr E.M. Latham, Head, South East Asia Programs Section, Area 1

Mr F . Wojtaszak, Acting Head, Finance Section

Mr J. Castrission, Acting Budgets Officer

Australian Centre for International Agricultural Research

Professor J.R. McWilliam, Director

Mr A. Satrapa, Executive Officer

DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

Mr T. Kanaley, Chief Finance Officer, Defence and Government

Division Mr B.J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Mr T. Wall, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division

The Chair called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 315-319 - $1 ,129,023,000 (Document A)

873, 875 - $4,698,000 (Document B)

315-318, 875 - $15,267,464 (Document D)

189.

The Committee concluded its examination of the Proposed

Expenditure and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister

for Finance for the Department of Foreign Affairs, subject to

undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

DEPARTMENT OF THE SPECIAL MINISTER OF STATE

In attendance: Senator the Honourable G.J. Evans, Q.C.,

Minisiter for Resources and Energy representing the Special

Minister of State accompanied by the following officers:

DEPARTMENT OF THE SPECIAL MINISTER OF STATE

Mr J.R. Holdich, Deputy Secretary

Mr W. McCann, First Assistant Secretary, Law Enforcement Policy

Division

Mr G. Quigley, Senior Assistant Secretary, General Policy Branch

Mr C. Whyte, Assistant Secretary, Police Affairs Branch

Mr M. Domney, Acting Assistant Secretary, Organised Crime Policy

Branch

Mr H. Logue, First Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary and

General Divison

Mr R. Webb, Assistant Secretary, Electoral, Grants and

Authorities Branch

Mr P. O'Neill, Acting Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary and

Ministerial Services Branch

Mr J.G. Simons, Acting Director, Awards and National Symbols

Unit

Mr M.H. MacKenzie-Orr, Head, Protective Services Co-ordination

Centre

Mr J. Gavin, Senior Assistant Secretary, Operations Unit

Mr E.L. Knaus, Assistant Secretary, Operations Unit

Mr A. Watson, Assistant Secretary, ADP Branch

Mr A.A. Cooley, Acting Director, Budgeting and Information

Systems Section

190.

.Australian Electoral Commission

IMr B. Friend, Assistant Commissioner, Resource Management

Mr A. Helling, Assistant Commissioner, Operations Unit

Mr J.S. Mahoney, Assistant Commissioner, Information and

Education Branch

Mr A.L. Ray, Clerical Administrative Class 9, Finance and

General Services

National Crime Authority

Mr D . Lenihan, Chief Executive Officer

Mr G. Linnane, Deputy Chief Executive Officer

Brigadier J.B. Deighton, Regional Executive Officer

Australian Federal Police

Mr J. Johnson, Deputy Commissioner

Mr S. Gavin, Secretary

Mr R.E. Dixon, Chief Superintendent, Coastal Protection Unit

Australian Bureau of Crime Intelligence

Mr A.J. Watt, Assistant Commissioner

Remuneration Tribunal

Mr A.A. Shakespeare, Secretary

Commonwealth Grants Commision

Mr A.A. Glasson, Secretary

DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

Mr T. Wall, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division

191.

Mr T. Gallagher, Chief Finance Officer, Defence and Government

Division

The Chair called on the following Divisions for consideration:

Divisions: 575-583 - $243,624,000 (Document A)

The Committee concluded its examination of the Proposed

Expenditure and Expenditure under the Advance to the Minister

for Finance for the Department of the Special Minister of State,

subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional

information.

4. REPLY TO REQUEST BY SENATOR TEAGUE. In response to the

request made by Senator Teague on Tuesday, 17 September 1985,

the Chair stated that the decision to release the Public Service

witnesses was made by the Manager of Government Business in the

Senate and put into effect before information was received which

enabled the Committee to meet before 5.30 p.m. When that

information was received immediate steps were taken to recall

the officers and the meeting commenced at approximately

4.40 p.m. The Chair stated that she was satisfied that there was

no attempt to undermine the authority of the Chair, the

Committee or the Senate.

5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.30 a.m.

6. ATTENDANCE: Senator Zakharov (Chair) and Senators Aulich,

Black, the Honourable Sir John Carrick, MacGibbon and Teague.

Senators Archer, Durack and Vigor also attended.

953, 955 - $12,080,000 (Document B)

577, 579, 582, 955 - $392,965 (Document D)

Confirmed: A . & U * #

A. Olive Zakharov Chair

192.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 12

Tuesday, 8 October 1985

1. MEETING: The Committee met in deliberative session at

1.35 p.m. in Committee Room No. 5. Senator Zakharov took the

Chair.

2. CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT: The Committee agreed that as

answers to questions taken on notice had not been received from

some Departments, the Committee would adjourn the consideration

of its report to 8.00 a .m. on Thursday 10 October 1985.

3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 1.41 p.m.

4 . ATTENDANCE: Senator

Senator

Senator

Senator

A . 0. Zakharov (Chair)

J.R. Black

the Honourable Sir John Garrick

B. C. Teague

5. APOLOGIES: Senator T. Aulich Senator D.J. MacGibbon

Confirmed:/l ,

A. Olive Zakharov Chair

193.

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 13

THURSDAY, 10 OCTOBER 1985

1. MEETING:

The Committee met in deliberative session at 8.05 a.m.

in Committee Room No. 8. Senator Zakharov took the

Chair.

2. MINUTES OF PREVIOUS MEETINGS:

The minutes of the previous meetings of the committee

were confirmed.

3. CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT:

The Committee considered the draft report to the

Senate. The Committee agreed to a number of

amendments. It was agreed that the amended draft be

circulated to Committee members and that a meeting be

held later in the day if any member considered it

necesssary. It was also agreed that, if no further

changes were required, the report be tabled in the

Senate by the Chair as the Committee's report.

4. ADJOURNMENT:

The Committee adjourned at 8.42 a.m.

194.

5. ATTENDANCE: Senator A.O. Zakharov (Chair)

Senator T. Aulich

Senator J.R. Black

Senator the Honourable Sir John Garrick

Senator D.J. MacGibbon

Senator B.C. Teague

Certified Correct:

A. Olive Zakharov

Chair

195.

■

.

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F REPORT TO THE SENATE

' I

£HE_S£NME

ESTJMATE5_£5EBJT5EE_Z

REPORT TO THE SENATE

Estimates Committee F has the honour to present its Report to

the Senate.

1. On 23 August 1985, the Senate referred to the Committee for

examination and report the Particulars of Proposed

Expenditure for the Service of the Year ending on 30 June

1986, the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in

respect of the Year ending on 30 June 1986 and the Advance

to the Minister for Finance for the Year ended 30 June 1985

relating to the following Departments;

Veterans' Affairs

Transport

Aviation

Territories

Local Government and Administrative Services

2. The Committee has considered the Estimates and the Advance

to the Minister for Finance for 1984-85, together with the

Departmental Explanatory Notes and has received evidence

from the Minister for Veterans' Affairs (Senator the

Honourable Arthur Gietzelt) and officers of the Departments

and authorities concerned. Copies of the Minutes of

Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by

the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate

in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1985-86 and

Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1985-86. Further written

explanations furnished by Departments will be presented

separately and printed in the Hansard record.

199.

3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the

following matters:

(a) The Department of Veterans' Affairs

(1) Explanatory Notes

The Department of Veterans' Affairs provided the

Committee with Explanatory Notes for each

estimate. This information was dissected into

notional items and as such, contained General

Comments which addressed the activities within

that area of expenditure. However, the General

Comment was omitted on pages 21, 44, 49 and 62 of

the Explanatory Notes.

The Department of Finance directed departments in

the 1985 guidelines (85/1870) 'to provide

explanatory information at least to the level of

dissection of the notional items'.The omission of

the General Comment by the Department has resulted

in the unsatisfactory explanation of the purpose

and aims of expenditure within those notional

items. This error resulted in a diminution of

Parliamentary scrutiny. This fact was of

particular concern to the Committee as the

Auditor-General had devoted a substantial

proportion of his September 1985 Report to the

Department of Veterans' Affairs.

200.

(2) Advance to the Minister for Finance

In the course of the hearings, a misunderstanding

by the Department of Veterans' Affairs concerning

certain expenditure in the Advance to the Minister

for Finance was noted. The Department of Finance

representative indicated that the misunderstanding

concerned the consolidation of administrative

items (Hansard p. 278). The Department of

Veterans' Affairs informed the Committee by letter

of the error it made and apologised for any

inconvenience caused. The Committee is, however,

concerned that such 'misunderstanding' can occur

and indicates its intention to closely observe the

Advance to the Minister for Finance expenditure in

the future.

(b) The Department of Transport

The Committee appreciated the detail provided in

the examination of expenditure by the Department

of Transport. However, during the hearing of the

Estimates for the Department, the Committee was

concerned that the Australian National Railways

Commission (ANRC) provided no representative to

speak to the line item on page 69 in the

Explanatory Notes. The Committee also noted that

the ANRC failed to provide a detailed breakdown of

the line item.

In the previous three years, the Department of

Transport has only once ensured that an ANRC

officer was present at Estimates Committee

hearings to provide answers to questions. This has

occurred despite the 1985 Department of Finance

Guidelines which state that 'Departments have a

20! .

responsibility to provide to the fullest extent

practicable, witnesses who are sufficiently expert

and adequately briefed to provide answers

immediately and competently. Statutory Authorities

may be called to account by Parliament for

expenditure of public funds'.

The Committee believes that many of the questions

asked at the hearing need not have been taken on

notice, had an ANPC representative appeared before

the Parliament.

(c) The Department of Local Government and

Administrative Services

In the examination of the Department of Local

Government and Administrative Services, the

Committee's attention was drawn to the unresolved

issue concerning disposal of Government property

in Williamstown, Victoria. Although the Senate

Standing Committee on Finance and Government

Operations reported on this issue in June 1978;

the old Customs House, the Wiltona Hostel and the

Williamstown Rifle Range remain unsold. As these

buildings have not been maintained since 1978

(Hansard p. 596) the Committee expresses its

concern at the deterioration of Government

property.

The Committee understands that these properties

have now been subject to the normal disposal

arrangements for over seven years. The Committee

recommends that this matter be referred to the

Senate Standing Committee on Finance and

Government Operations for a further report.

202.

(d) Presence of a Minister

The Committee expresses its concern at the absence

of the Minister for Veterans' Affairs who was

summonsed to a full meeting of Ministry during the

examination of the Department of Local Government

and Administrative Services. Whilst it is not

necessary for a Minister of the Crown to assist

Departments in their appearance before Estimates

Committees, the Minister's enforced absence

resulted in the temporary suspension of the

Committee's proceedings. The absence of a Minister

may have adversely affected the performance of

Departmental officers on policy questions.

4. The Committee records its appreciation of the assistance

given by the Minister and the officers of the departments

concerned.

(George Georges) CMirman

11 October 1985

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 2

THURSDAY. 12 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. PUBLIC MEETING: At 11.32 a. m. the Committee met in

public session.

2. The Chairman declared the meeting open, reported the

Resolution of the Senate of 23 August 1985 and made a

statement relating to the procedure to be followed by

the Committee in its examination of the estimates.

3. PARLICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

In Attendance; Senator the Honourable A.T.Gietzelt,

Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied by the

following officers:

Department of Veterans' Affairs -

Mr. D. Volker, Secretary

Mr. J. Muir, First Assistant Secretary (Benefits)

Mr. A. Selleck, General Manager, Defence Service

Homes

Mr. E. Attridge, Acting First Assistant Secretary

(Legal Services)

Mr B. Godfrey, Acting First Assistant Secretary

(Managment)

Mr E. Letts, First Assistant Secretary (Projects

and Co-ordination)

Mr M. Kehoe, Cheif Director, Medical Services

Mr S. Wookey, First Assistant Secretary (Systems)

207.

Mr N. Trabinger, First Assistant Secretary

(Treatment Services)

Mr R. Hegarty, Assistant Secretary (Benefits

Policy)

Mr J. Cosgrove, Assistant Secretary (Finance)

Mr W. Kerr, Assistant Secretary (Departmental

Health)

Dr G. Brooks, Director (Pharmaceutical)

Mr P. Watson, Assistant Secretary (Treatment,

Services Control)

Ms V. Wright, Acting Director (Office of

Australian War Graves)

Mr R. Marshall, Acting National Director, Vietnam

Veterans Counselling Service

Dr M.M. McKernan, Acting Director (Australian War

Memorial)

Mr M.J. Dawes, Acting Assistant Director

(Resources Management), Australian War Memorial

Department of Finance -

Mr L.P. Burn, Chief Finance Officer, Social

Welfare Branch, Veterans' Section, Social

Security Division

Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Budget and

Public Department Section, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer, Budget and

Public Department Section, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 690, 692, 693, 694 (Document A)

Divisions 984, 985, 987 (Document B)

Divisions 690, 6 91, 6 92 (Document D)

208.

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

Proposed Expenditure for the Department of Veterans' Affairs,

subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional

information to the Committee.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT.

In Attendance: Senator the Honourable A. T. Gietzelt,

Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied by the

following officers:

Department of Transport -

Mr P.J. Merner, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Management and Co-ordination Division

Mr T.R. Munyard, Assistant Secretary, Finance and

Services, Management and Co-ordination Division

Mr J . Walker, Acting Director, Programs and

Budgets, Finance and Services, Management and

Co-ordination Division

Mr P. Eccles, First Assistant Secretary, Maritime

Safety Division

Mr K. Wheatley, Manager, Marine Navigational Aids,

Maritime Safety Division

Mr I. Grigor, First Assistant Secretary, Domestic

Shipping Policy Division

Mr N. Waslin, First Assistant Secretary, Roads

Division

Mr D. Scorpecci, Acting Assistant Secretary, Rail

Branch, Land Transport Policy Division

Mr K.G. Haupt, Assistant Secretary, Commercial

Branch, International Shipping Policy Divison

Ms C. Boughton, Assistant Secretary, Road User

Branch, Road Safety Division

209.

Mr D. McLennan, Deputy Director, Bureau of

Transport Economics

Mr F. Keith, Secretary, Inter-State Commission

Mr 0. Rodda, Director, Administration, Interstate

Commission

Department of Finance -

Mr L.P. Burn, Chief Finance Officer, Social

Welfare Branch, Veterans Section, Social

Security Division

Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Budget and

Public Department Section, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer, Budget and

Public Department Section, Financial Management

and Accounting Policy Division

Mr H.C. Cunningham, Acting Chief Finance Officer,

Surface Transport Section, Transport Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 664, 666, 667, 668 (Document A).

Divisions 972, 973 (Document B).

Division 664 (Document D ) .

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

Proposed Expenditure for the Department of Transport, subject to

an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information

to the Committee.

210.

5 PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE

DEPARTMENT OF AVIATION

1985-86

In Attendance; Senator the Honourable A.T. Gietzelt,

Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied by the

following officers:

Department of Aviation -

Mr K. Toakley, First Assistant Secretary,

Resources Division

Mr M. Mayoh, Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch

Mr G. Broomfield, Director, Budget Section

Mr J . Huggett, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Airports Division

Mr J. Moffatt, Assistant Secretary, Airports

Management Branch

Mr B. Smith, Acting Assistant Secretary, Airports

Systems Branch

Mr L. Clayton, Acting Director, Airports Program

and Liaison Unit

Mr B. O'Keeffe, First Assistant Secretary, Airways

Division

Mr J . Richardson, Acting Assistant Secretary, Air

Traffic Services Branch

Mr N. Potter, Assistant Secretary, International

Organisations and Economic Branch, International

Policy Division

Mr P. Bowen, First Assistant Secretary, Domestic

Policy Division

Mr R. Elder, Assistant Secretary, Domestic

Regulation Branch

Mr T. Wheeler, Acting Assistant Secretary,

Economic Policy and Investment Planning Branch

Mr G. O' Day, First Assistant Secretary, Flight

Standards Division

211.

Mr H. Wall, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Management Services Division

Mr C. Druitt, Director, Supply Branch

Ms M. McPherson, Director, Personnel Branch

Mr P. Choquenot, Director, Bureau of Air Safety

Investigation

Mr G. Mansfield, Assistant Secretary, Information

Branch

Department of Finance -

Mr L.P. Burn, Chief Finance Officer, Social

Welfare Branch, Veterans' Section, Social

Security Division

Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Budget and

Public Debt Section, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer, Budget and

Public Debt Section, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Mr L. Henning, Chief Finance Officer, Transport

and Industry Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 193, 194 (Document A)

Divisions 826, 828 (Document B)

Division 193 (Document D)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

Proposed Expenditure for the Department of Aviation, subject to

an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information

to the Committee.

212.

6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

DEPARTMENT OF TERRITORIES.

In Attendance: Senator the Honourable A. T. Gietzelt,

Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:

Department of Territories -

Mr J . Turner, Acting Deputy Secretary

Mr G. Fraser, First Assistant Secretary,

Secretariat

Mr M. Woods, Assistant Secretary, Resource

Management

Mr C. Ansted, Acting Director, Programs and

Budgets

Mr T. Hedley, First Assistant Secretary, Community

Affairs

Mr V. Martisius, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Development

Mr N. Quinn, First Assistant Secretary, External

Territories and Legislation

Ms J . Emerton, Director, Island Management and

Operations

Ms L. Webb, First Assistant Secretary, Housing and

Welfare

Mr R. O'Connell, First Secretary, Managment

Services

Mr R. Donnellan, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Parks and Conservation

Mr B. Dockrill, First Assistant Secretary,

Transport and Technical Services

Mr W. Kerr, Australian Capital Territory Fire

Commissioner Mr J . Brigg, Assistant Secretary, Public Transit

213.

Parliament House Construction Authority

Mr J. Maher, Acting Assistant Secretary, Business

Management

Mr B. Lenihan, Senior Finance Officer, Business

Management

National Capital Development Commission

Mr B. Browning, Acting Associate Commissioner

Mr A. Phillips, Acting Secretary-Manager

Department of Finance -

Mr L.P. Burn, Chief Finance Officer, Social

Welfare Branch, Veterans Section, Social

Security Division

Mr T. Wall, Chief Finance Officer, Budget and

Public Debt Section, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Mr T.S. Wilson, Senior Finance Officer, Budget and

Public Debt Section, Financial Management and

Accounting Policy Division

Mr D.J. Gniel, Chief Finance Officer, Defence and

Government Division

Ms J.I. Johnman, Chief Finance Officer, Defence

and Government Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 626, 628 (Document A)

Divisions 959, 960, 961 (Document B)

Division 620 (Document D)

And Division 620 being considered by the Committee -

214.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.14pm.

ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were

present: Senator Georges (Chairman), Senators Foreman,

McKiernan, Reid, Townley and Vanstone.

Senators Hamer, Lewis, Peter Rae and Vigor also

participated in the Committee's proceedings.

(GEORGE GEORGES) Chairman

THE SENATE

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

NO. 3

TUESDAY. 17 SEPTEMBER 1985

1. PUBLIC MEETING: At 3.34pm the Committee met in public

session.

2. The Chairman resumed consideration from 12 September

1985, of the Department of Territories.

3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

DEPARTMENT OF TERRITORIES.

In Attendance: Senator the Honourable A.T. Gietzelt,

Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied by the

following officers:

Department of Territories -

Mr J. Turner, Acting Deputy Secretary

Mr M. Woods, Assistant Secretary, Resource

Management

Mr C. Ansted, Acting Director, Programs and

Budgets

Mr J . Wynants, Senior Finance Officer, Budgets and

Review

Mr A. Hedley, First Assistant Secretary, Community

Affairs

Mr R. Gallagher, First Assistant Secretary,

Development

Mr N. Quinn, First Assistant Secretary, External

Territories and Legislation

216.

Ms J. Emerton, Director, Island Management and

Operations

Ms L . Webb, First Assistant Secretary, Housing and

Welfare

Mr R. O'Connell, First Assistant Secretary,

Management Services

Mr R. Donnellan, Acting First Assistant Secretary,

Parks and Conservation

Mr B. Dockrill, First Assistant Secretary,

Transport and Technical Services

Mr W. Kerr, Australian Capital Territory Fire

Commissioner

Mr J. Brigg, Assistant Secretary, Public Transit

Parliament House Construction Authority

Mr J. Maher, Acting Assistant Secretary, Business

Management

Mr B. Lenihan, Senior Finance Officer, Business

Management

National Capital Development Commission

Mr B. Browning, Acting Associate Commissioner

Mr A. Phillips, Acting Secretary-Manager

Department of Finance -

Mr T.S. Wilson, Acting Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr D.J. Gniel, Chief Finance Officer, Defence and

Government Division

Mr J. Johnson, Chief Finance Officer, Defence and

Government Division

217.

Consideration resumed of the following Divisions of the

Department of Territories:

Divisions 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 626, 628 (Document A)

Divisions 959, 960, 961 (Document B)

Division 620 (Document D)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

Proposed Expenditure for the Department of Territories, subject

to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional

information to the Committee.

4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1985-86 -

DEPARTMENT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND ADMINISTRATIVE

SERVICES.

In Attendance: Senator the Honourable A. T. Gietzelt,

Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied by the

following Officers:

Department of Local Government and Administrative Services -

Mr A.R. Palmer, Deputy Secretary

Ms P. Morris, Acting Director of Property

Mr J.R. Clark, Senior Assistant Secretary,

Overseas Property Office, Property Directorate

Mr C. Fuller, Deputy Surveyor-General, Australian

Survey Office

Mr G. Low, First Assistant Secretary, Purchasing

and Disposals Division

Mr B.E. Hinchcliffe, First Assistant Secretary,

Transport and Storage Division

Mr M. Gallagher, First Assistant Secretary, Local

Government and Regional Development

Mr A.A. Hillier, First Assistant Secretary,

Management Division

218.

Mr P. Dawson, Senior Assistant Secretary,

Australian Protective Service

Mr M. Wood, Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch,

Management Division

Mr G.J. Hackett, Director, Estimates and Funds

Control Section, Finance Branch, Management

Division

Department of Finance -

Mr T.S. Wilson, Acting Senior Finance Officer,

Financial Management and Accounting Policy

Division

Mr T. Gallagher, Chief Finance Officer, Defence

and Government Division

Mr K. Sweeney, Chief Finance Officer, Defence and

Government Division

The Chairman called on the following Divisions for

consideration:

Divisions 400, 402, 403 (Document A)

Divisions 921, 922, 923 (Document B)

Divisions 130, 811 (Document D)

The Committee concluded its consideration of the

Proposed Expenditure for the Department of Local Government and

Administrative Services, subject to an undertaking by the

Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.

5. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee met in private session

at 6.45pm to consider items for the Committee's Report.

219.

ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.55pm.

ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were

present: Senator Georges (Chairman), Senators Foreman,

McKiernan, Reid, Townley and Vanstone.

Senators Lewis, Peter Rae and Vigor also participated

in the Committee's proceedings.

(GEORGE GEORGES) Chairman