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SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, E and F
Reports to the Senate on Departmental Additional Estimates 1983-84
Presented and ordered to be printed 30 and 31 May 1984
Parliamentary Paper No. 154/1984 â‘
Parliamentary Paper No. 154j1984
The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia
SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, E and F
Reports to the Senate on Departmental Additional Estimates 1983-84
The Commonwealth Government Printer Canberra 1986
© Commonwealth of Australia 1986
Contents
1. Resolution of the Senate
Page
3 April 1984 0 v
20 Membership of Committees vi
30 Estimates Committee A-Report Minutes of Proceedings 1984 2 May 1984 0 6
4 May 1984 0 7
9 Ma y 1984 0 10
30 May 1984 11
30 May 1984 12
40 Estimates Committee B-Report 13
Minutes of Proceedings 1984 30 April 1984 13
50 Estimates Committee C-Report 16
Minutes of Proceedings 1984 30 April 1984 17
30 April 1984 20
29 May 1984 21
60 Estimates Committee D-Report 22
Second Report 0 24
Minutes of Proceedings 1984 3 May 1984 0 25
4 May 1984 0 28
9 May 1984 0 29
29 May 1984 29
70 Estimates Committee E-Report 31
Minutes of Proceedings 1984 5 April 1984 0 34
3 May 1984 0 34
9 May 1984 0 39
29 May 1984 40
8o Estimates Committee F-Report 41
Minutes of Proceedings 1984 3 May 1984 0 41
29 May 1984 45
111
Resolution of the Senate passed on 3 April 1984
ESTIMATES COMMITTEES-REFERENCE OF PARTICULARS OF
PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84: The Minister for Veterans' Affairs (Senator Gietzelt), by leave, moved -( I) That the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year ending on 30 June 1984, the Particulars of Certain Proposed
Additional Expenditure in respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1984 and Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1984 in relation to the Parliamentary Departments be referred forthwith to Estimates Committees for examination and report. (2) That the Committees consider Proposed Additional Expenditure in the
Estimates Committee groupings agreed to by Resolution of the Senate on 22 April 1983. Estimates Committee A Parliament
Industry and Commerce Prime Minister and Cabinet Employment and Industrial Relations Communications Estimates Committee B
Social Security Immigration and Ethnic Affairs Housing and Construction Health Estimates Committee C
Resources and Energy Trade Treasury Primary Industry Finance Estimates Committee D
Education and Youth Affairs Sport, Recreation and Tourism Science and Technology Home Affairs and Environment
Aboriginal Affairs Estimates Committee E Attorney-General Special Minister of State
Foreign Affairs Defence Defence Support Estimates Committee F
Veterans' Affairs Transport Aviation Administrative Services Territories and Local Government (3) That the Committees report to the Senate on or before Wednesday, 30 May
1984.
Question- put and passed.
v
Membership of Committees
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A
Senator Robert Ray (Chairman) Senator Coleman Senator Cook Senator Hill Senator Lewis Senator Peter Rae
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B
Senator Giles (Chairperson) Senator Bjelke-Petersen Senator Crowley Senator Elstob Senator Messner Senator Walters
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C
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Senator Primmer (Chairman) Senator Boswell Senator Sir John Carrick Senator Childs Senator Dame Margaret Guilfoyle
Senator Maguire
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D
Senator Colston (Chairman) Senator Baume Senator Coates Senator Martin Senator Teague Senator Zakharov
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E
Senator Sibraa (Chairman) Senator Durack Senator Reynolds Senator Scott Senator Tate Senator Watson
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F
Senator Georges (Chairman) Senator Collard Senator Reid Senator Richardson Senator Robertson Senator Townley
Estimates Committee A REPORT TO THE SENATE
Estimates Committee A has the honour to report to the Senate. 1. On 3 April 1984, the Senate referred to the Committee the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the year 1983-84, relating to the Parliament, the Department of Industry and Commerce, and the Departments of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, Employment and Industrial Relations, and Communications.
2. The Committee has considered the Additional Estimates of the Departments, together with the Departmental Explanatory Notes, and has received evidence in relation to them from the President of the Senate (Senator the Honourable Douglas McClelland), the Leader of the Go vernment and Minister for Industry and Commerce (Senator the Honourable John Button), the Deputy Leader of the Government and Minister for Social Security (Senator the Honourable Don Grimes), the Minister for Energy and Resources (Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh) and officers of the Departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and
Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the informatio n of the Senate in connection with Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill (No. 2) 1983-84, Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1983-84 and Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1983-84.
3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters arising from its consideration of the Estimates:
PARLIAMEN TARY DEPARTMENTS
Joint House Department The Committee is concerned at some of the revealed inadequacies relating to security arrangements at Parliament House. It notes that the Presiding Officers have directed the Security Controller of the Joint House Department, in consultation with the Usher of the Black Rod and the Serjeant-at-Arms, to prepare a report on general security and evacuation arrangements. Since the hearings, the President of the Senate has provided a report
from the Security Controller on one particular aspect of the security arrangements raised during the course of the Committee's investigation. The Security Controller's report was tabled as part of the additional information provided to Estimates Committee A .
DEPA RTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS
Australian Broadcasting Corporation In the course of its examination of all aspects of the Department of Communications, the Committee raised a number of matters relating to the estimates and activities of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, including questions related to re " organisation within the Australian Broadcasting Corporation . Subsequently, the Committee noted that the Corporation had held a press conference, with A.B.C.
Board Chairman, Mr Kenneth Myer and Managing Director Mr G . Whitehead, present, on 4 May 1984, before the Committee's meeting. A press statement relating to the conference was marked "EMBARGO - NOT FOR PUBLICATION UNTIL 12 NOON FRIDAY 4 MAY". Major announcements were made at that press conference regarding the proposed re-organisation of the ABC . It is important to stress that no indicati on was given during the Committee's hearings that changes of considerable magnitude had so recently been announced.
The Committee was concerned that no hint of the announcements was given during the hearings, and agreed that a further meeting should be sought with officers of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. In this regard, the Committee places on record its appreciation of the co-operation of the Leader of the Government and Minister for Industry and Commerce, Senator Button, and senior officers of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation and Department of Communications for making themselves available for the hearing. The Committee also appreciates the fact that the Senate agreed to the postponement of the Order of the Day for the presentation of its report, to enable it to pursue what it regarded as vital questions going to the heart of the accountability of statutory authorities to the Parliament.
The Committee's hearing took place on Wednesday, 30 May 1984, at 8.00 p.m. The Committee sought explanations from the officers, including the Managing Director, of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, as to why officers appearing before the Committee on 4 May were either not aware or did not inform the Committee that a press conference had been held. Officers at that first hearing included the Assistant Managing Director-the second most senior officer of the Corporation-and the Committee was therefore puzzled as to why officers attending could not have made the Committee aware, even in the most general terms, that the announcements had been made.
During discussion of this matter on 30 May, the Leader of the Government pointed out, and the Committee acknowledges, that changes to the Committee's programme of sittings at short notice could have resulted in officers appearing at the 4 May hearings not having been briefed in detail on the announcements made at the press conference. The Managing Director, Mr Whitehead, indicated at the 30 May hearing that he did not appreciate, at the time of the Committee's first hearings, that the re-organisation announced at the press conference could have implications for the Committee's consideration of the additional estimates before it. The Committee is aware that Mr Whitehead has been appointed to his position only recently, and therefore has had no previous experience of the operations of Estimates Committees. Mr Whitehead further indicated that the Assistant Managing Director had spent 12 years overseas, and, in any case, was not cognisant of the detail of the proposed re-organisation.
So far as the Committee is concerned, however, the most generous comment that can be made about the failure to inform the Committee of matters of such direct relevance to its task is that such failure was a display of negligence . The Committee is also concerned at the Australian Broadcasting Corporation's indifference to the Committee's role, evidenced by the Corporation's failure to provide certain information, despite undertakings given to the Committee on 4 May, and the late production of the limited information which was provided: Most answers were supplied to the Committee only a few hours before the Committee's 30 May hearing. The Committee is tempted to conclude that its decision to hold the further hearing wondrously concentrated the minds of officers who were to appear before it: otherwise, no information at all might have been forthcoming.
At the 30 May hearing, the Committee also examined the Minister and officers in relation to estimates proposed for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation in the light of the re-organisation announced at the press conference. The Managing Director has agreed to provide the Committee with a detailed statement of the implications of the re-organisation and the Committee will table the information in the Senate when it becomes available .
As indicated earlier in this report, the Committee's primary concern in seeking the special hearing was to uphold the principle, asserted by the Se?ate sin~e 197.1, of accountability of statutory authorities to the Parliament. T~ere .1s s?~e 1rony. m the fact that the Committee found it necessary. to take the action 1t d1d m relatiOn
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to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. As was pointed out at the hearings on 30 May, the first assertion of the Senate's right to involve itself in all aspects of proposed expendit1.1re of statutory authorities derived from a 1971 report from Estimates Committee B, chaired by Senator Peter Rae, a member of this Committee. Following that Committee's examination of the then Australian Broadcasting Com " mission, Estimates Committee B concluded, and the Senate adopted the Committee's view:
"That whilst it may be argued that Statutory Authorities are not accountable through the responsible Minister of State to Parliament for day-to-day operations, they may be called to account by Parliament itself at any time and that there are no areas of expenditure of public funds where these corporations have a discretion to withhold details or explanations from Parliament or its Committees unless the Parliament has expressly provided otherwise."
That principle was re-affirmed unanimously by the Senate in 1974 on the motion of the then Leader of the Government in the Senate, Senator Murphy. The Senate's concern to ensure accountability of statutory authorities has remained undiminished since that time. Mindful of the continuing concern, Estimates Committee A there "
fore recommends that the Senate again re-assert the principle, as a reminder to statutory authorities generally, and the Australian Broadcasting Corporation in particular, of their responsibilities to the Parliament.
DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET
Office of National Assessments The Committee expresses its concern that, during its hearings, the Office of National Assessments failed to provide certain information which the Office should have known formed part of its own estimates. In response to a question from Senator
Coleman in relation to furnishing or refurbishing of the office of the Director General, the officer appearing before the Committee advised that this was a matter coming within the estimates of the National Capital Development Commission " the province of Estimates Committee F.
As the hearings of that Committee had concluded, Senator Coleman wrote to the Chairman of Estimates Committee F, Senator Georges, requesting that the information be sought. Two responses were received. The first was from the NCDC to Estimates Committee F, advising that the Commission's responsibility lay only with refurbishing the Director General's office on behalf of the Department of Administrative Services and that the provision of loose items of furniture and fittings was the responsibility of the Office of National Assessments. The second response, furnished to Estimates Committee A, came from the Office of National Assessments. That response provided, in itemised form as requested by Senator Coleman in her letter to Senator Georges, the information sought in her original question before Estimates Committee A.
3
GENERAL
Auditor-General's Reports During the examination of the Department of Communications, questions were also put to.. !he Australian Broadcasting Corporation in relation to adverse comments on it in the latest Auditor-General's Report (March 1984). The officers of the Corporation were unable. to answer these questions.
Over a period of time, Estimates Committees have stressed the importance to them of the early availability of Auditor-General's Reports. As Estimates Comm ittees A and E noted in October 1982, it is pleasing that the A uditor-General has deliberately ensured that the substance of his major report to the Parliament has been made available for the purpose of assisting Estimates Committees. Clearly, both the Estimates Committees and the A uditor-Gener al are mindful of the importance of such Reports to a proper performance of the function, on behalf of the Parliament, of ensuring the accountability of departments and statutory authorities for the expenditure of moneys appropriated by the Parliament.
While accepting that it is not automatic that any or all Committees may wish to raise matters referred to by the Auditor-General in his reports, it is reasonable to expect that departments andjor authorit ies will regard comments by the Auditor " General with the same seriousness as the Committees, and the Auditor-General himself. The Committee has noted many comments from previous committees relating to departmental consideration of the Auditor-General's comm ents, ranging from commendation of appropriate and ready responses by departments to his criticisms to reproof of the "almost dismissive attitude" to serious criticism by the Auditor-General demonstrated by the Department of Defence in evidence before Estimates Committee D, as reported in October 1983. Estimates Committee's A experience during recent hearings gives rise to a similar disquiet: the Committee is of the view that it is incumbent upon departments and authorities to assume that questions will be raised in relation to matters referred to in Auditor-General's Reports, and that therefore information relating thereto should be readily available. from departments and authorities at all hearings of the Estimates Committees.
The importance of the Auditor-General as the Parliament's watch-dog in relation to expenditure of moneys appropriated by the Parliament was, happily, demon strated during recent hearings. A representative from the A uditor-General's Office explained that there was a need for additional funds for the Office to ensure that the auditing of financial statements of statutory authorities could be expedited. Statutory authorities must now comply with legislative requirements, agreed to by the Parliament primarily as a result of the work of Senate Estimates Committees and the Senate Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations, that annual reports, including financial statements, should be made available to the Parliament within three months of the statutory end of year, whether financial or calendar.
Estimates Committees-Operation In May 1982, this Committee drew attent ion to the attendance of departmental officers at committee hearings in the following terms:
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"The Committee noted that, as usual, large numbers of senior officers attended the Committee hearings to provide information if needed. The Committee further noted that many of these officers were not required, a matter of some concern when the total amount of time wasted by senior and highly paid people is considered. While attendance of officers ultimately remains the prerogative of the Minister, the Comm ittee recommends that only officers who are directly involved in the items under consideration, in particular of Additional Estimates, be required to attend hearings. If other officers are required , prior notice could be given by Committee members."
The Committee, in its most recent hearings, noted the same problem; in the light of its comments made above, concerning what turned out to be the totally inadequate information given by the vast array of senior inter-State officers from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, this matter takes on an even greater significance. It appears to the Committee that the whole question of the operation of Estimates Committees is worthy of urgent consideration , and therefore endorses
the recommendation made by Estimates Committee D in May 1983 that: ". . . . the Committee Review Group Discussion Paper on 'The Structure of the Senate's Committee System' (approved 4 May 1982) be further considered by the Senate.".
4. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance given by the President of the Senate, the Leader of the Government and Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Deputy Leader of the Government and the Minister for Social Security , the Minister for Resources and Energy and the officers of the various departments and authorities who appeared before the Committee.
ROBERT RAY
Chairman
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MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No.7
Wednesday, 2 May 1984 1. MEETING: The Committee met at 8.00 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Robert Ray) took the Chair.
2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman reported the Resolution of the Senate of 3 April 1984 and made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Estimates.
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-PARLIAMENT ARY DEPARTMENTS In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Douglas McClelland, President of the Senate, accompanied by the following officers:
Department of the Senate Mr A. R. Cumming Thorn, Clerk of the Senate Mr P. N. Murdoch, Clerk-Assistant (Management Office) Mr H . Evans, Clerk-Assistant (Committees) Mr J. Vander Wyk, Acting Clerk-Assistant (Procedure) Mr C. Edwards, Senior Clerk of Committees Mr G . Nankervis, Senior Parliamentary Officer (Administration) Mr J. Dyer, Senior Parliamentary Officer (Parliamentary Relations) Mr M . Goodall, Information Systems Officer Department of the Parliamentary Reporting Staff
Mr J. W. Roberts, Principal Parliamentary Reporter Mr M. J. Farrelley, Administrative Officer Department of the Parliamentary Library Mr H. de S. C. MacLean, Parliamentary Librarian
Mr J. J. Brudenall, Deputy Parliamentary Librarian Mr E. Dobson, Director, Systems and Co-ordination Unit Mr H. Knight, Finance Officer Joint House Department
Mr 1. M. Jorgensen, Secretary Mr F. W. Bradley, Acting Director, House Management Mr L. N. Kelly, Acting Director, Management Services Mr E. W. Howell, Security Co-ordinator Mr C. R. Crapp, Principal Technical Officer Mr L. S. Carter, Acting Finance Manager Mr C. Bettie, Project Officer Mr C. Christian, Food Services Manager (CPRR) Mr J. Lamb , Project Officer Department of Finance
Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Ms P. A. Lyndon, Finance Officer The President of the Senate made an introductory statement. The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration :
Division 101 Department" of the Senate Division 105 Parliamentary Reporting Staff . Division 106 Parliamentary Library Division 107 Joint House Department The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Parliamentary Departments, subject to undertakings by the President to provide additional information to the Committee.
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4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE
In Attendance: Senator the Honourable John Button, Minister for Industry and Commerce , accompanied by the following officers: Department of Industry and Commerce Mr D. O'Connor, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division
Mr R . Carmody, First Assistant Secretar y, Compliance Division Mr H . Bates, First Assistant Secretary, Inland Revenue and Dumping Division Mr D . Smedley, First Assistant Secretary, Systems Division Mr J. Chesworth, Assistant Secretary, Resources Management Branch Mr H . McMahon , Assistant Secretary , Resources, Excise and Bounties Branch Mr B. Cody, Assistant Secretary, Inland Services Branch Mr D. Lee, Assistant Secretary, Barrier Control Mr G . Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Small Business Policy and Programs
Branch Mr R . Samarcq, Assistant Secretary, Manufacturing Industry Policy Branch Mr J. McCormack, Assistant Secretary, Import Administration Branch Industries Assistance Commission:
Dr M . Parker, First Assistant Commissioner, Inquiry Division No. 1 Mr A. Cahill, Assistant Commiss ioner, Services Branch Mr K. Mourant, Director, Management Services D epartment of Finance Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 400-404 (Document A)
Divisions 921-924 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Industry and Commerce, subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee. 5. ADJOURNMENT : The Committee adjourned at 10.26 p.m. 6. ATTENDANCE : Senators Coleman, Cook, Hill, Lewis and Robert Ray. Apology received from Senator Peter Rae. Senator Walters also attended.
CONFIRMED :
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No.8
Friday, 4 May 1984
ROBERT RAY
Chairman
1. MEETING : The Committee met at 2.02 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Robert Ray) took the Chair. 2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNICATIONS
In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh, Minister for Resources and Energy, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Communications Mr E. E. Payne, Deputy Secretary
Mr R . N . Smith, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting Division Mr M. R . Ramsay, First Assistant Secretary, Radio Frequency Management Division Mr J. C. Maclean, Assistant Secretary, Financial and Regulatory Branch
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Mr D . R. Eyles, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Communications Development Division Mr A. F. Guster, First Assistant Secretary, Corporate Policy and Projects Division Mr B. W. Johnman, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr A . T. Garner, Assistant Secretary , Station Establishment and Operations
Branch
Australian Broadcasting Corporation Mr S. Revill, Assistant Managing Director Mr G. White, Assistant General Manager, Television Mr K . Mackriell, Assistant General Manager, Radio Mr K. Bourke, Controller , Engineering Mr A . Coulter, Director, Finance Mr P. Barnett, Controller, Radio Australia Mr J. Newson, Controller, Radio Distribution and Services Australian Broadcasting Tribunal
Mr B. Connolly, Secretary Mr C. Answerth, Senior Executive Officer, Management Services Mr S. Wilson, Director, Public Enquiry /Licensing Division Mr M. Payton, Finance Officer Special Broadcasting Service
Mr L. Shaw , First Assistant Executive Director, Corporate Affairs Division Mr K . Nazaroff, Head of Administration Mr D. Forsyth, Acting Director, Finance Australian Postal Commission
Mr J. Power, Manager, Marketing Control Mr J. Nicholls, Manager, Policy and Systems Branch Australian Telecommunications Commission Mr L. Sebire, Director, Broadcasting Overseas Telecommunications Commission
Mr J. Randall, Assistant General Manager, Finance and Accounts Department of Finance Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Minister made an introductory statement. The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
Divisions 220-224 (Document A) Divisions 842-844 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of Communications, subject to undertakings by the Minister to
provide additional information to the Committee. 3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh (Minister for Resources and Energy) accompanied by the following officers :
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Department of Employment and Industrial Relation s Mr G. Rees, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr D . Poulter , Acting First Assistant Secretary, Legislation and Review Division Mr K. Power, First Assistant Secretary , Management Services Division Mr J. Walker, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy and
Programs Division Mr K. Fitzgerald, Acting General Manager, Commonwealth Employment Services Programs Division
Mr T . Hilsberg, General Manager, Commonwealth Employment Services Planning and ADP Division Mr G. Evans, Assistant Secretary, Employment Creation Branch Mr N. Schouten, Assistant Secretary, Community Programs Branch Mr D. Power, Acting Assistant Secretary, Manpower Skills Branch Mr D. Gunzburg, Assistant Secretary, Working Environment Branch Mr N. Fisher, Director, Bureau of Labour Market Research Mr R. Coffey, Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch Conciliation and Arbitration Commission
Mr J. McMahon, Industrial Registrar, Office of the Industrial Registrar Trade Union Training Authority â‘ Mr R. Cooper, Administrator Department of Finance
Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 287-290 (Document A) Division 860 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the
Department of Employment and Industrial Relations, subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee. 4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET
In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Peter Walsh (Minister for Resources and Energy) accompanied by the following officers: Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet Mr A . D . Rose, Deputy Secretary
Mr A . Mann, Acting Assistant Secretary Office of National Assessments Dr D . H. Robertson, Deputy Director General Mr N . Denning, Chief Executive Officer Commonwealth Ombudsman's Office
Mr R. Goldstein, Director, Policy Co-ordination Mr B. Hugg, Executive Officer Australian Science and Technology Council Mr I. Shortt, Acting Secretary Australian Audit Office
Mr P. D . Mazey, Assistant Auditor-General Mr G . A. McGrory, Acting Director, Management Mr R. Soloman, Acting Executive Officer, Finance Public Service Board
Mr A. Hawke, Assistant Commissioner, Management Branch Mr K. Stokes, Assistant Director, Finance and Accounts Department of Finance Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Division for consideration:
Division 500 (Document A) 5. ADJOURNMENT : The Committee adjourned at 4.20 p.m. 6. ATTENDANCE : Senators Coleman, Cook, Hill, Peter Rae and Robert Ray. Apology received from Senator Lewis. Senator Walters also attended.
CONFIRMED :
ROBERT RAY
Chairman
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MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No.9
Wednesday, 9 May 1984 1. MEETING : The Committee met at 8.03 p.m . The Chairman (Senator Robert Ray) took the Chair. 2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEP A RTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET
In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Don Grimes (Minister for Social Security), accompanied by the following officers : Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet Mr A. D . Rose, Deputy Secretary
Mr A. Mann, Acting Assistant Secretary Office of National Assessments Dr D. H. Robertson, Deputy Director General Mr N. Denning, Chief Executive Officer Commonwealth Ombud sman 's Office:
Mr R. Goldstein, Director, Policy Co-ordination Mr N. Koukoulas, Acting Executive Officer Australian Science and Technology Council Mr I. Shortt, Acting Secretary Australian Audit Office
Mr P. D . Mazey , Assistant Auditor-General Mr G . A. McGrory, Acting Director General Mr R. Soloman, Acting Executive Officer, Finance Public Service Board Mr A. Hawke, Assistant Commissioner, Management Branch Mr R. Wedgwood, Director , Finance and Services Department of Finance Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration : D ivisions 500-516 (Document A) Divisions 938-940 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, subject to undertakings by the Min ister to provide additional information to the Cvmmittee. 4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 8.27 p.m. 5. A TTENDANCE: Senators Coleman,â‘ Cook, Peter Rae and Robert Ray. Apologies received from Senators Hill and Lewis.
CONFIRMED :
10
ROBERT RAY
Chairman
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No. 10
Wednesday, 30 May 1984 l. MEETING: The Committee met at 8.00 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Robert Ray) took the Chair. 2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the reasons for the Committee's hearing and, with the concurrence of the Committee, re-opened consideration of Division 222, Sub-Division 1, and Division 824, Sub-Division 3, Item 02, of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure
1983-84, relating to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. The Chairman indicated that the re-consideration of the proposed expenditure would be undertaken in the light of announcements made by the Chairman of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation and the Managing Director on 4 May 1984, before the Committee met to examine the Corporation's Estimates .
3. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION : The Committee agreed to incorporate in Han sard further additional information received since the tabling of written replies in the Senate on 30 May 1984. 4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION-RECONSIDERATION In Attendance: Senator the Honourable John Button, Minister for Industry and Commerce, accompanied by the following officers:
Department of Communications Mr E. E. Payne, Deputy Secretary Mr I. Phillips, Acting Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting Policy Branch Mr L. M. Smith, Acting Director, Finance and Supply Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Mr G. Whitehead, Managing Director Mr K . Mackriell, Assistant General Manager, Radio Mr G. Reynolds, Federal Director of Television Production Planning and Services Mr J. Newsom, Controller, Radio Development and Services Mr A . Coulter, Director, Finance Mr C. Berry, Head, Personnel Services Department of Finance
Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for reconsideration in accordance w ith the Committee's decision: Division 222 (Document A)
Division 824 (Document B) The Committee concluded its reconsideration of the proposed expenditure for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, subject to undertakings to provide additional information to the Committee.
5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 8.45 p.m. 6. ATTENDANCE: Senators Coleman, Cook, Hill, Peter Rae and Robert Ray. An apology was received from Senator Lewis. CERTIFIED CORRECT
ROBERT RAY
Chairman 31 May 1984
11
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No. 11
Wednesday, 30 May 1984 1. MEETING: The Committee met in deliberative session at 8.45 p.m . in Senate Committee Room No. 6. The Chairman (Senator Robert Ray) took the Chair. 2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES : The Minutes of Meetings Nos. 7, 8 and 9, held on 2, 4, and 9 May 1984, respectively, were confirmed. 3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the Chairman's draft Report to the Senate and a proposed addition by Senator Coleman.
R esolved: That the draft Report and proposed addition be agreed to, and that further addition s to the Report, to refle ct the Committee's views following its examination of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation on 4 and 30 Ma y 1984, be circulated to members for approval before the Report is tabled.
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9 p.m. 5. ATTENDANCE: Senators Coleman, Cook, Hill, Peter Rae and Robert Ray. An apology was received from Senator Lewis. CERTIFIED CORRECT :
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ROBERT R AY
Chairman 31 M ay 1984
Estimates Committee B
REPORT TO THE SENATE
Estimates Committee B has the honour to present its report to the Senate. 1. On 3 April 1984 the Senate referred to the Committee the Particular s of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1984, and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1984 relating to the following Departments:
Department of Social Security; Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs; Department of Housing and Construction; and the Department of Health. 2. The Committee has considered these Estimates and has received evidence in relation to them from the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs (Senator the Honourable Susan Ryan) and the Minister for Veterans' Affairs (Senator the Honourable A. T. Gietzelt) and officers of the Departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1983-84 and Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1983-84. Answers to questions which were deferred and subsequently given in writing since the Committee's hearing will be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committee's hearings.
3. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance given by the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs (Senator the Honourable Susan Ryan) who appeared before the Committee due to the absence overseas of the Minister for Social Security (Senator the Honourable Don Grimes) and thanks the officers of the Departments who appeared before the Committee.
PATRICIA J. GILES Chairperson
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No.8
Monday, 30 April 1984 1. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.05 p.m. in Senate Committee Rooms 1 and 2. The Chairperson, Senator Giles, took the Chair. 2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-
DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SECURITY In attendance : Senator the Honourable Susan Ryan, Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Social Security
Mr J. M . Mahoney , Acting National Manager (Field Operations) Mr C . A. McAlister, National Co-ordinator (Assets Tests) Mr B. A. Wraith, First Assistant Director-General (Benefits Delivery) Mr S. F. Skehill, First Assistant Director-General (Legislation and Review) Mr P. J. Johnstone, First Assistant Director-General (Subsidies) Mr A . Kingdon, Acting D irector (Office of Child Care) Mr C. Calvert, Assistant Director-General (Finance) Mr R. Elmes, Acting Assistant Director-General (Management Facilities)
13
Department of Finance Mr M. J. Danaher, Senior Finance Officer The Chairperson called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 560 and 561-Department of Social Security (Document A)
Divisions 949 and 950-Department of Social Security (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1983-84 for the Department of Social Security, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee. 3: PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EX PENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF IMMIGRATION AND ETHNIC AFFAIRS
In attendance: Senator the Honourable Susan Ryan, Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, and the Honourable A. T. Gietzelt, Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs
Mr L. Woodward, Deputy Secretary Mr R. Anderson, First Assistant Secretary, Management Mr I. McNeil, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Services Ms S. Ingram, Acting Assistant Secretary, Settlement Mr J. Mahoney, Acting Assistant Secretary, Migrant Centres Mr D. Doherty, Acting Director, Financial Policy and Estimates Mr G . Woodward, Assistant to the Director, Australian Institute of
Multicultural Affairs Department of Finance Mr M. Danaher, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairperson called on the following Divisions for consideration :
Divisions 360 to 365-Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs (Document A)
Division 902-Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1983-84 for the Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs , subject . to an undertaking by the Ministers to provide additional information to the Committee. 4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH
In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Susan Ryan, Minister for Education and Y .outh Affairs, accompanied by the following officers :
14
Department of Health Mr P. Pflaum, Acting Deputy Director-General Dr W. A. Langsford, First Assistant Director -General, Public Health Division Dr L. R. Drew, Acting First Assistant Director-General, Medical Services
Division Mr K. M. Riordan, Acting First Assistant Director-Genera l, Managem ent Services Division Mr L. W . Lane, First Assistant Director-General, Quarantine Division Mr W. Turk, Assistant Director-General , Internal Audit Branch Mr J. B: Kelly, Assistant Director-General, Finance Branch Mr T. J. Turner, Acting Assistant Director-General, Ho spitals and H ealth
Services Branch Mr W. Bruen, Acting Assistant Director-Genera l, Nursing Home s Care and Benefits Branch Mr W . Taylor, Assistant Director-Genera l, Investigations Branch MrS. K. Lees, Acting Director, Finance Mr M. Sexton, Assistant Commissioner, Policy and Planning, Capital Territory
Health Commission
Mr G . Thorn, Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Services, Capital Territory Health Commission Mr M . Murray, Assistant General Manager, Finance, Health Insurance Commission D epartment of Finance
Mr M. J. Danaher, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairperson called on the following divisions for consideration: Divisions 325 to 329- Department of Health (Document A) Divisions 881 , 882 and 883- Department of Health (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1983-84 for the Department of Health, subject to an undertaking by
the M inister to provide additional information to the Committee. 5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-D EPARTM ENT OF HOUSING AND CONSTRUCTION
In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Susan Ryan, Minister for Education and Yo uth A ffair s, accompanied by the following officers: D epartment of Housing and Construction Mr K . J. Rodda, O .B.E., Deputy Secretary
Mr R. J. Egan, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Housing Policy Division Mr R. G. Pitt, Acting Assistant Secretary , Finance Mr M . F. Cole, Acting Assistant Secretary, Works Mr P. Fewell, Business Manager, Snowy Mountains Engineering Corporation D epartment of Finance
Mr M . J. Danaher, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairperson called on the following divisions for consideration: D ivisions 352, 353, 354 and 355- Departrnent of Housing and Construction (Document A) D ivisions 897 and 899- Department of Housing and Construction (Document C) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1983-84 for the Department of Housing and Construction, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee. 6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.07 p.m.
7. A TTENDANCE : The following members of the Committee were present: Senator Giles (Chairperson) Senator Bjelke-Petersen Senator Crowley Senator Elstob Senator Walters Senators Baume , Kilgariff and Robertson also attended.
CONFIRMED :
PATRICIA J. GILES Chairperson
15
Estimates Committee C
REPORT TO THE SENATE
Estimates Committee C has the honour to present its Report to the Senate. 1. On 3 April 1984 the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates of Additional Expenditure for the year ending on 30 June 1984 relating to the following:
Department of Resources and Energy Department of Trade Department of the Treasury Department of Primary Industry Department of Finance 2. The Committee has considered the Estimates of Additional Expenditure and received explanations of them from the Minister for Resources and Energy and officers of the Department and authorities concerned. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 3)
1983-84 and Appropriation Bill (No.4) 1983-84. Outstanding written explanations furnished by Departments will be presented separately and printed in the Hansard record. â‘
3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following: The Committee records its disappointment at the time it has taken some Departments and authorities to provide written answers to questions arising out of the Committee's hearing on 30 April. With the exception of the Department of Primary Industry and the Department of Finance, all questions arrived only after a period of three weeks had elapsed since the hearing. In the case of the Department of the Treasury the written answers were only received on 29 May 1984- one day before the Committee was required to report to the Senate. On 29 May, at the time the Committee met to consider its report to the Senate, the Committee had not received replies from the Department of Trade.
The Committee particularly draws tlie attention of the Senate to the failure of the Department of Trade to supply answers to questions . Written replies to a number of questions were promised by the Department at the hearing on 30 April. The Committee considers that the provision of detailed written answers to questions is a normal and necessary part of Estimates Committee operations, and is essential for the proper consideration of Appropriation Bills by the Senate.
The Committee believes that debate on the Second Reading of Appropriation Bills 3 and 4 should not proceed if satisfactory written answers are not provided in advance of the Bills being called on. The Committee is of the opinion that all written answers arising out of the hearing on 30 April should have been available for Committee perusal within three weeks. 4. The Committee expresses its appreciation for the assistance given by the Minister and the officers .
16
CYRIL PRIMMER Chairman
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No.6
Monday, 30 April 1984 l. MEETING : The Committee met in public session at 2.07 p.m. in Senate Comm ittee Room 6. The Chairman (Senator Primmer) took the Chair. 2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN : The Chairman made an introductory
statement. Pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate on 3 April 1984, the Committee would consider the following departmental additional estimates:
Division
Document* Page No. D epartment Amou nt
$
A 36 520-525 R esources and Energy 4651000
B 8 943 Resources and Energy 854 000
A 48 640-644 Trade 6 121 000
A 50 670-678 T reasury . 16 588.000
A 31 490-497 Primary Industry . 3 109 000
B 8 932 Primary Industry . 6 000
A 21 304-306 Finance . 2 337 000
B 6 865-866 Finance . . 69 837 000
" Documen t A - 'Particulars of Proposed A dditi onal Expenditur e for the Service of the Ye ar Ending on 30 June 1984'. " Doc umen t B- 'Particulars of Certain Proposed A :!diti onal Expenditure in Respect of the Ye ar ending on 30 June 1984'.
3. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL
EXPENDITURE 1983-84- DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND ENERGY Appearing: Senator the Honourable P. A. Walsh, Minister for Resources and Energy, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Resources and Energy
Mr P. Ryan, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr G. C . Gorrie, Senior Assistant Secretary , Co-ordination and Management Division Dr W . B. Rotsey, First Assistant Secretary, Energy Research and Development
Division Mr W . G . McGregor, First Assistant Secretary , Uranium and Nuclear Division Mr A. Manderson, First Assistant Secretary, Water and Development Division Mr A. A. Garran, Assistant Secretary, Test Site Management and
Investigations Branch, Uranium and Nuclear Division Mr C. Veenstra, Director, Division of National Mapping Dr A. R . Jensen, Assistant Director , Planning and Programs Branch, Bureau of Mineral Resources Dr D. G . Walker, Director , Research Establishment, Australian Atomic
Energy Commission Mr W. H . Ratcliff, Secretary /Manager, Administration , Australian A t
Section, Test Site Management and Investigations Branch Department of Finance Mr B. J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. W. Turner, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration :
Divisions 520-525- Department of Resources and Energy (Document A) Division 943- Department of Resources and Energy (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1983-84 for the Department of Resources and Energy.
17
4. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84- DEPARTMENT OF TRADE Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. A. Walsh (representing the Minister for Trade) accompanied by the following officers:
Department of Trade Mr A. J. McGoldrick, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Overseas Division Mr F. E. Anderson, First Assistant Secretary, Trade Promotion & Services
Division Mr G. L. V. Hooton, Principal Adviser, Commodities No. 2 Division Mr E. W. Exell, Director, Trade Commissioner Service Dr A. Hayman, Principal Adviser (Acting), Uranium Division Mr K. J. Baker, Assistant Secretary, Commodities No. 1 Division Mr J. B. Gregory, Assistant Secretary, Economic and Policy Division Mr G . M. Hill, Assistant Secretary, Trade Relations & Markets Division Mr P. L. Webb, Assistant Secretary (Acting), Trade Policy Division Mr C. Robbie, Assistant Director, Office of New Zealand Relations Mr R. A. Daly, Executive Member, Export Development Grants Board Mr J. S. Smith, Export Finance Insurance Corporation Mr K. G. Hazelton, Director, Finance and Services, Management and
Overseas Division Department of Finance Mr B. J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. W. Turner, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
Divisions 640-644-Department of Trade (Document A) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Addi " tional Expenditure 1983-84 for the Department of Trade.
5. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. A. Walsh (representing the Treasurer) accompanied by the following officers:
18
Department of the Treasury CENTRAL TREASURY Mr R. Whitelaw, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr D. Buchler, Chief Finance Officer, Revenue, Loans and Investment
Division Mr A. Rowe, Assistant Secretary, Management Branch Mr T. L. Jobling, Director, Finance and Services Section Mr P. Suthern, Finance Officer, Finance and Services Section Mr J. Foster, Assistant Director , Operations, Systems and ADP Section Mr J. E. Grenfell, Acting Assistant Director , Personnel and Establish-
ments Section PRICES SURVEILLANCE AUTHORITY Mr C. V. Kennedy, Acting Executive Officer AUSTRALIAN BUREAU OF STATISTICS
Mr W. P. McLennan, First Assistant Statistician, Co-ordination and Management Division Mr C. J. Dent, Acting Assistant Statistician, Management Services Branch Mr L. C. Clements, Assistant Statistician, Prices Branch Mr G . Sarossy, Assistant Statistician, Manpower Branch Mr G. Reedman, Director, Social Surveys and Indicator Section
Mr J. V. Crocker, Assistant Statistician, Planning, Control, Standards and Training Section Mrs M . C. Jones, Acting Director, Finance and General Service Section Mrs P. Gu y, Acting Senior Inspector, Finance and Accounts Sub-section AUSTRALIAN TAXATION OFFICE
Mr D . J. Cortese, Assistant Commissioner, National Projects Branch Mr J. J. Crotty, Assistant Commissioner, Special Advisers Branch Mr D . W . Holmesby, Inspector Finance, Resource Branch Department of Finance Mr D . K . Wallace, Assistant Secretary, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration : Divisions 670-678- Department of the Treasury (Document A). The Comm ittee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1983-84 for the Department of the Treasury.
6. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICU LARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL
EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY . Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. A Walsh (representin g the Minister for Primary Industry) accompanied by the following officers : Dep artment of Primary Industry
M r J. L. Gibson, Deputy Secretary Mr P. H. Langhorne, Director, Export Inspection Service Dr J. Longmire, Acting Director, Bureau of Agricultural Economics Dr R. Bain, First Assistant Secretary, Fisheries Division Mr M. J. Blarney, First A ssistant Secretary , Meat and Wool Division Mr R. W . Gee, Director, Bureau of Animal Health Mr T . J. Kelly, First Assistant Secretary, Operations Division Mr J. R. Rae, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Development and Co-
ordination Division Mr G. R. Bryant, Assistant Secretary, Forestry Branch Mr P. C . Gray, Assistant Secretary, Dairy Marketing and Stabilisation Branch Mr N.J. Keily, Acting Assistant Secretary, Financial Management Branch Department of Finance
Mr D . K. Wallace, Assistant Secretary, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration : Divisions 490-497-Department of Primary Industry (Document A) Division 932- Department of Primary Industry (Document B) The C ommittee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Additional
Expenditure 1983-84 for the Department of Primary Industry .
7. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL
EXPENDITURE 1983-84- DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE . Appearing: Senator the Hon . P. A. Walsh (representing the Minister for Finance) accompanied by the following officers: Department of Finance
Mr B. A. Friend, Acting Assistant Secretary , Management Services Branch Mr J. V. Galloway, Assistant Secretary, Employment and Government Branch Mr G. M. Wauchop , Director Operations, ADP Branch M r D. K. Wallace, Assistant Secretary, Accounting and Supply Division
Mr W. C . Walker, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch M r A. D . Preston-Stanley; Director, Personnel and Establishment Mr J. C . Tamblyn, Assistant Secretary, Manufacturing, Mining and Energy
Branch
19
Mr P. B. Thomas, Chief Finance Officer, Manufacturing, Mining and Energy Branch Mr B. R. Gemme!, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Special Projects Mr M. W. Crompton, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Transport and
Communications Branch AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT RETIREMENT BENEFITS OFFICE
.Mr R. J. McKillop, Acting Assistant Secretary, Administration Mr K. J. McCullagh, Director, Services Mr R. Jackson, Finance Officer SUPERANNUATION FUND INVESTMENT TRUST
Mr W. J. Smith, Acting Chairman Mr R. Thorpe, Acting Director, Administration The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 304-306-Department of Finance (Document A)
Divisions 865-866-Department of Finance (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure 1983-84 for the Department of Finance. 8. ADJOURNMENT : The Committee adjourned at 9.40 p.m. 9. ATTENDANCE : The following members of the Committee were present " Senators Boswell, Childs, Sir John Carrick, Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, Maguire and Primmer. Also present was Senator Tate.
CONFIRMED:
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No.7
Monday, 30 April 1984
CYRIL PRIMMER Chairman
1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 9.45 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Primmer) took the Chair. 2. DRAFT REPORT: The Chairman asked for matters of interest which could be included in the Committee's report. It was agreed to wait until the written replies had been received from the Departments. 3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.47 p.m. 4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present " Senators Boswell, Childs, Sir John Carrick, Dame Margaret Guilfoyle, Maguire and Primmer.
CONFIRMED:
20
CYRIL PRIMMER Chairman
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No. 8
Tuesday, 29 May 1984 1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 6.30 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Primmer) took the Chair. 2. MINUTES: The minutes of the meetings held on 30 April 1984 were confirmed. 3. DRAFT REPORT : The Chairman circulated a draft report for the Committee's consideration . â‘
The Report w as agreed to, with an amendment. 4. A TTENDANCE : The following members of the Commit tee were present " Senators Bo swell, Sir John Carrick, Dame M argaret Guilfoyle, Maguire and Primmer. C ERTIFIED CORRECT :
CYRIL PRIMMER Chairman
21
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D
REPORT TO THE SENATE
1. On 3 April 1984, the Senate referred to the Committee the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on June 1984 and Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1984, relating to the Department of Education and Youth Affairs, the Department of Sport, Recreation and Tourism, the Department of Home Affairs and Environment, the Department of Science and Technology and the Department of Aboriginal Affairs. 2. The Committee has considered the Estimates of the Departments, together with the Departmental Explanatory Notes, and has received evidence in relation to them from the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs and officers of the departments. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No.3) 1984 and Appropriation Bill (No.4). Answers to ques " tions which were deferred and subsequently given in writing since the Committee's last hearings will be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committee's hearings. 3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters.
HANSARD
Access to the Hansard is necessary so that ready reference may be made to those questions which were asked and the answers which were received at the hearing. As well, Hansard is required by Departments so that they can provide accurate responses to questions placed on notice. Therefore the Committee believes that the â‘ practice of the Legislative and General Purpose Standing Committees of circulating the uncorrected proof of evidence should be followed by Estimates Committees.
This Committee, therefore, recommends that, the uncorrected proof of evidence for each Estimates Committee should be made available to members of that Committee and any other interested Senator who asks for a copy.
STATUS OF WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
During consideration of the additional estimates a series of prepared questions were put to all Departments. In a number of cases answers to some or all of the questions were provided in writing after the Committee had completed its hearings. A Senator who was not a member of this Committee sought access to these answers prior to their release by the Committee, which would not usually occur until they had been tabled in the Senate as 'additional information'.
In the case of this Committee the matter of access was satisfactorily resolved after a short delay, by the Chairman authorising release of the documents. However , given the pressure of time on the work of Estimates Committees, and the need to facilitate consideration of information received by an Estimates Committee, the Senate might consider whether there is-a need to review the status of written answers to questions (as distinct from Committee correspondence) to provide a more expeditious and uniform approach to their release. The Committee believes that this matter does not require examination by the Standing Orders Committee. It therefore recommends that, 22
~he resolution referring the Appropriation Bills to Estimates Committees
mclude a paragraph authorising the immediate release of written answers to questions asked at hearings of Estimates Committees. The Committee intends to review the progress made in this area after it has considered Estimates in the 1984 budget session of the Parliament. 4. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance it received from the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, Senator the Honourable Susan Ryan, and from the officers of the various Departments.
MINORITY REPORT
MAL COLSTON
Chairman May 1984
We believe that Estimates Committee D should reconvene to take further evidence from the Minister for and officers of the Department of Education and Youth Affairs. After examining the Hansards of Estimate Committee D's proceedings on â‘ 3 and 4 May 1984, a letter to the Chairman of the Committee from the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs (Senator the Hon. S. Ryan) which was given to the Committee on 4 May 1984, and a 'Personal Statement' dated 22 May 1984 from
Dr A . Taloni (First Assistant Secretary, Department of Education and Youth Affairs), we have concluded that the Minister and Dr Taloni consciously withheld information when answering questions on the involvement of the Department in a survey being undertaken by the Government.
As a result of conflicts between the evidence of 3 May from the Minister and Dr Taloni, and information in the Minister's Jetter, a Motion of Censure against the Minister was debated in the Senate on 8 May. During that debate, Estimates Committee D's Chairman (Senator M. Colston)- at the suggestion of Senator Macklin- stated that the Committee could be reconvened if a written request was made to him. We immediately submitted a written request that Estimates Committee
D be reconvened for the purpose of taking further evidence on the matter. Senator Colston called a private meeting of Estimates Committee D on 9 May to discuss our request. A motion- that the Committee reconvene in public ses:;ion with the Minister for and officers of the Department of Education and Youth Affairs (including Dr Taloni) to rehear parts of the examination of that Department's Additional Estimates-was defeated by a vote on "party" lines, the Chairman using his casting vote against the motion.
We believe that decision was wrong: it was not in the best interests of Senate committees; it could deprive the Senate of information to which it is entitled; it denies to officers of the Department of Education and Youth Affairs a chance to explain publicly matters about which questions have been raised in the Senate.
Estimates Committee D has a duty to the Senate and its committees to determine how it was misled and to seek accurate information. The Minister's letter of 4 May (written after the Department of Education and Youth Affairs had finished giving evidence) establishes the need to re-examine the relevant estimates and to clarify the answers to certain questions. Dr Taloni's "Personal Statement" raises further issues.
This is the first recorded instance of an Estimates Committee having been given what appears to be calculated, incorrect information . At the very least the issue is one of "the non-disclosure of information in such a way as not to transgress on the truth but only to mislead". Estimates Committee D should not have decided to let the issue pass. Questions asked on 3 May remain unanswered by either the Minister's letter or Dr Taloni's "Personal Statement".
23
An estimates committee has the same privileges as the Senate itself. Public servants and Ministers have the same obligation for truthfulness to an estimates committee as they do to the Senate. False information given to an estimates committee is the ;;arne as false information given to Parliament. The need for Estimates Committee D to establish the truth in this matter is a duty owed not only to our Committee system, but also to the Senate and to the Westminster system of responsible Parliamentary government.
The officers of the Department of Education and Youth Affairs are also owed the opportunity to reconsider their answers to questions put on 3 May. We believe the Senate has been badly served by Estimates Commit tee D's decision, made on the basis of a "party vote". It is our hope that the Senate, in its own interest s, will not permit the matter to rest there.
(P. E. BAUME) 29 May 1984
(K. J. MARTIN) (B. C . TEAGUE)
SECOND REPORT TO THE SENATE
1. On 30 May 1984, the Senate moved: "That the particular s of proposed additional expenditure for the service of the year ending 30 June 1984 contained in Divisions 270 to 284 for the Department of Education and Youth Affairs be recommitted to Estimates Committee D for consideration and report to the Senate on or before Friday, I June 1984." 2. The Committee has reconsidered Divisions 270 to 284 for the Department of Education and Youth Affairs, and has received evidence in relation to them from the Minister for Education and Youth Affairs and officers of the Department. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1984. Answers to questions which were deferred and are to be given in writing subsequent to the Committee's hearings will be tabled in â‘ the Senate and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committee. 3. On the basis of the evidence in the original hearing, the Committee does not accept certain statements in the minority report about Senator Ryan and Dr. Taloni namely,
and
" . . . we have concluded that the Minister and Dr. Taloni consciously withheld information when answering questions on the involvement of the Department in a survey being undertaken by the Government."
"This is the first recorded instance of an Estimates Committee having been given what appears to be calculated, incorrect information." The further hearings serve only to confirm the assessment that these statements are without justification. 4. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance it received from the Minister for Education and Youth A ffairs, Senator the Honourable Susan R yan, and from the officers of the Department.
31 May 1984
24
MAL COLSTO N
Chairman
MINORITY REPORT
We do not agree that the hearings of Estimates Committee D confirm the assessment contained in the majority report to the Senate. ' We do not consider it appropriate to canvass the reasons for our opinion in this report. We shall therefore await the Committee stages debate of Appropriation s
Bill (No. 3) 1984 to state them.
(K. J. MARTIN) 31 May 1984
(B. C . TEAGUE)
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
N o.5
Thursday, 3 May 1984 I. MEETING: The Committee met at 2.05 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Colston) took the Chair.
2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN : The Chairman reported the Resolutions of the Senate of 22 April 1983 and 3 April 1984, and made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the estimates .
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR
THE YEAR ENDING 30 JUNE 1984- DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
A ND YOUTH AFFAIRS
In attendance: Senator the Hon . Susan Ryan, Minister for Education and Youth A ffairs, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Education and Youth Affairs Mr R . N . Allen, Director, Office of ACT Further Education
Dr. A. Taloni, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division Mr P. Bowler, First Assistant Secretary, Programs and Development No . Division Mr J. J. Wilson, Special Adviser, Policy and Resource Planning Division Mr P. C . M aher, Assistant Secretary, Departmental Services Branch Miss J. Miller, Assistant Secretary, International Education Branch Mr J. Burnett, Assistant Secretary, Transition Education Branch Mr J. M . Parr, Assistant Secretary, Aboriginal Education Branch
Mr P. B. Kearns, Assistant Secretary, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch Mr D . Moss, D irector, Student Assistance - Programs Branch Commonwealth Schools Commission
Dr J. McMorrow, Acting First Assistant Commissioner General Resource Program Division Ms D. Mildern, Acting First Assistant Commissioner Operations and Resources Division Mr R. McNamara , Acting First Assistant Commissioner Specific Purpose
Programs Division
Commonwealth Tertiary Education Commis sion Mr T . J. Mullarvey, Director, Finance and Management Services Section ACT Schools Authority Mr R . P. Sadler, Senior Director, Resources Group
Ms T. Reilly, Acting Principal Executive Officer, Finance and Computing Section 25
Australian National University Professor A. D. Barton, Treasurer Mr H. A. Jones, Head, Finance and Accounting Division Mr J. Brayshaw, Budget Officer Canberra College of Advanced Education
Dr R. Jory, Registrar Mr G. Eadie, Secretary Mr W . Dwyer, Bursar Department of Finance
Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Van Meegan, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Minister made a brief statement. The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration :
Divisions 270-284 (Document A) Divisions 848-851 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Education and Youth Affairs, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee. 4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR
THE YEAR ENDING 30 JUNE 1984-DEPARTMENT OF SPORT ,
RECREATION AND TOURISM
In attendance: Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Sport, Recreation and Tourism Mr R. G. Harvey, First Assistant Secretary, Tourism Division
Mr G. R. Dempster, First Assistant Secretary, Sport and Recreation Division Mr K. F. Fairbrother, Assistant Secretary, Secretariat and Co-ordination Branch Mr A. W. Barden, Assistant Director, Finance and Accounts Australian lnsitute of Sport
Mr P. J. Bowman, Acting Executive Director Mr R . W . Hobson, Acting General Manager Australian Tourist Commission Ms A Burfitt, Manager, Market Research and Economic Analysis Department of Finance
Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Van Meegan, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
Divisions 590-592 (Document A) Division 956 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Sport, Recreation and Tourism, subject to an undertakin g by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee. 5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR
THE YEAR ENDING 30 JUNE 1984-DEPARTMENT OF HOM E
AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT In attendance: Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, accompanied by the following officers:
26
Department of Home Affairs and Environment Mr P. J. Galvin, Acting Secretary Mr G. Wilcos, Acting Assistant Secretary, Co -ordination and Managemen t Services Branch Mr B. Zanetti, Acting Director, Finance and Services
International Expositions Unit Mr G. Mills, Assistant Secretary Mr P. Ryan, Principal Executive Officer Culture and Heritage Division
Mr B. Smith, Acting First Assistant Secretary Environment Policy Division Mr E. Anderson, Assistant Secretary Australian Archives
Mr C. D. Pitson, Assistant Director-General, Business Management Mr A. L. Pearlman, Director Resources Management Australian War Memorial Air-Vice Marshall, J. H. Flemming, Director A ustralia Council
Dr T. Pascoe, Chairman Mr R. Adams, Director, Arts Co-ordination Mr G. Sloman, Principal Finance Officer National Library of Australia
Mr H. Bryan, Director-General Mr R . Laing, Acting Assistant Director-General Australian National Gallery Mr G . Andrews, Administrator
Mr M. Claasz, Financial Manager Department of Finance M. P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Van Meegen, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
Divisions 330-346 (Document A) Divisions 888-890 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Home Affairs and Environment, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee. 6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR
THE YEAR ENDING 30 JUNE 1984- DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE
AND TECHNOLOGY In attendance: Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, accompanied by the following officers : Department of Science and Technology
Mr R. Moncur, Assistant Secretary, Management Branch Mr G. W. Bullivant, Director, Resource Planning Section Mr J. E. Bleasel, Acting Director, Antarctic Division Mr P. Spehr, Acting Director, Management, Bureau of Meteorology Mr W. J. Peart, Senior Assistant Commissioner, Business Management,
Patent, Trade Marks and Designs Office Mr J. N. Grant, Executive Officer, Budgetary Control Mr P. Schultz, Assistant Secretary, Technology Infrastructure Branch, Technology Development Division Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation
Mr I. L. Farrar, Assistant Secretary (Budget) Dr B. T. England, Assistant Secretary (Office of Executive) Mr D . M. Daly, Assistant Secretary (Office of Executive) Mr R. A. Riches, Senior Finance Officer (Budget Section) Department of Finance
Mr P. Stark, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Van Meegen, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division 27
The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration. Divisions 540-554 (Document A) Divisions 945-947 (Document B)
The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditure for the Department of Science and Technology, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee. 7. ADJOURNMENT : The Committee adjourned at 10.35 p.m. 8. ATTENDANCE: Senators Baume, Coates, Colston, Martin, Teague and Zakharov. Senators Chaney and Robertson also attended.
CONFIRMED MAL COLSTO N
Chairman
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No. 6
Friday, 4 May 1984 1. MEETING : The Committee met at 2.04 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Colston) took the Chair. 2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE FOR
THE YEAR ENDING 30 JUNE 1984-DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGI NAL
AFFAIRS In attendance: Senator the Hon. Susan Ryan, Minister for Education and Youth Affairs, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Aboriginal Affairs
Mr C. N. Perkins, Secretary Mr G . Brownbill, First Assistant Secretary, Government and Legal Division Mr D . O 'Rourke, First Assistant Secretar y, Program Development Division. Mr A. Koukoulas, First Assistant Secretar y, Management Division Mr W. Gray, Assistant Secretary, Land and Min ing Branch Mr K. Wanganeen , Assistant Secretary , Management Operations Branch Mr J. G. Menham, Assistant Secretary , Information Branch Mr R. Toohey, Assistant Secretary, Budget Branch Mr W. Oakes, Assistant Secretary , Communit y Affairs and Legal A id
Branch Mr C. Bourke, Acting Assistant Secretary, Education, Employment and Training Mr W. Koller, Assistant Administrator, Management Mr R. Clarke, Compan y Secretary Mr W . Dix, Acting Principal Department of Finance
Mr J. W. Turner, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 120-125 (Document A) Divisions 804-806 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed additional expenditur e for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs, subject to an undertaking by the Min ister to provide additional information to the Committee.
3. ADJOURNMENT : The Committee adjourned at 4.15 p.m . 4. ATTENDANCE: Senators Baume, Colston, Teague and Zakharov. Apologies received from Senators Coates and Martin. CONFIRMED: MAL COLSTO N
Chairman
28
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 7
Wednesday, 9 May 1984
1. MEETING: The Committee met m private session at 8.04 p.m. in Senate Committee Room 7. 2. MOTION TO RECONVENE HEARINGS FOR ESTIMATES COM "
MITTEE D: The Chairman, in his opening remarks, invited one of the Senators wh o had requested the re-opening of the hearing to open the discussion by proposing a mo tion. In response, Senator Baume put the following motion to the Committee:
'That Estimates Committee D be reconvened to reconsider the Department of Educa " tion and Youth Affairs Additional Estimates and that the Minister and officers of the D epartment, including Dr A. Taloni, be invited to appear before the Committee.' After extended discussion in which all members partic ipated the question that the Committee agree to the motion was put. The Committee divided.
Aye s Baume, P. E. Martin, K. J. Teague, B. C.
Ayes .. 3
Noes .. 3
Noes Coates, J. Colston, M. A . Zakharov, A. 0.
The Chairman therefore exercised his casting vote and the motion was defeated. 3. ADJOURNMENT : The Committee adjourned at 8.40 p.m. 4. ATTENDANCE: Senators Baume , Coates, Colston, M artin, Teague and Zakharov.
CONFIRMED :
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No.8
Tuesday, 29 May 1984
MAL COLSTON Chairman
1. MEETING : The Committee met in deliberative session at 8.47 a.m. in Senate Committee Room No . 4. The Chairman (Senator Mal Colston) took the Chair. 2. PERSONAL STATEMENT BY DR A. T ALONI : The Committee received the personal statement by Dr A. Taloni, an officer of the Department of education and Y outh Affairs, relating to evidence he gave at Estimates Committee D hearing on Thursday, 3 May 1984.
Resolved: The Personal Statement by Dr A .. Taloni should be included in the additional information presented to the Senate. 3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the Chairman's draft Report to the Senate. Senator Martin indicated that the late distribution of Han sard resulted in problems in checking answers and therefore suggt
Senator Coates moved that the first line of the Chairman's draft Report be deleted. The motion was carried. 29
The Committee also discussed the distribution of written replies to questions . Resolved: That the amended draft Report be adopted on the understanding that some Senators will be adding reservations . 4. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES : The Minutes of meetings held on 3 May
1984, 4 May 1984 and 9 May 1984 were confirmed as amended. 5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.20 a.m. 6. ATTENDANCE: Senators Coates, Colston, Martin, Teague and Zakharov. Apologies received from Senator Baume . CERTIFIED CORRECT:
30
MAL COLSTON Chairman
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E
REPORT TO THE SENATE
Estimates Committee E has the honour to present its Report to the Senate. 1. On 3 April 1984, the Senate referred to the Committee the Additional Estimates for the year ending 30 June 1984 relating to the following Departments: Department of Defence
Department of Defence Support Department of Foreign Affairs A ttorney-General's Department Department of the Special Minister of State. 2. The Com mittee has considered the Additional Estimates of the Departments and has received explanations of them from the Attorney-General and officers of the Departments concerned. Copies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1983-84. and Appropriation Bill (No. 4) 1983-84. 3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following issues arising from its consideration of the additional estimates.
DEPARTMENTAL RESPONSES TO REPORTS OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL
Department of Defence In its report of October 1983, the Committee expressed its concern at the attitude taken by the Defence Department to criticisms contained in the Auditor-General's report of 13 September 1983 and commented as follows:
'The Committee experience some difficulty in getting specific responses from officers of the Department of Defence to criticisms by the A uditor-Gener al in recent report s. In fact the Committee was struck by what appeared at times to be an almost-dismissive attit ude to serious criticisms by the Auditor-General concerning the Department's project ma nagem ent practices, particularly in areas such as shipbuilding.' The Committee has again pursued some of the criticisms raised in the Auditor " General's report in its current examination of the additional estimates and is able to report a slightly more informed and detailed response from the Department. Officials were able to indicate steps being taken to rectify certain matters. For example, in relation to army ammunition procurement [Division 234, Sub. Division
1, Item 02] the Com mittee addressed the Auditor-General's criticisms as to the lack of formally approved emergency procurement procedures. This was highlighted by the urgent purchase from France in 1980 of blank ammunition worth $1.5 million. In the event, the supplier of the sample ammunition chosen by the army closed down and another overseas company manufactured the ammunition based on the sample. N o testing or quality assurance of the blanks supplied by the second company under the purchase contract was conducted before its delivery and the blanks failed to fire consistently. Audit suggested that, in future contracts provision should be made in the purchase contract stipulating that ammunition must be 'capable of firing in A ustralian Army weapons' [pg 48]. The Department has assured the Committee that it has sufficient redress under contracts should similar events recur.
31
Department of Defence Support The Committee is especially impressed by the speed with which the Department of Defence Support has responded to the Auditor-General's criticisms . The Comm itt ee notes the establishment of an inter-departmental Committee in consultation with both the Department of Finance and the Auditor-General to formulate guidelines and principles on the proper production of profit and loss balance sheets for factories under the supervision of the Department. In particular, the Committee is impressed by the introduction into the Williamstown Naval Dockyard of an efficient system of fully commercial accounting which should provide a model for other operations throughout the Department.
DETAIL IN EXPLANATORY NOTES
During the examination of explanatory notes of the Department of Defence and Defence Support, the Committee noted the usefulness of summaries of increases and decreases in expenditure for each Division. However, the Committee sought clarification from Departmental Officers on a number of occasions on the actual details of savings identified for particular items.' The Committee would appreciate in the future if details of savings could be incorporated into explanatory notes in order to give the Committee early information, before the hearings begin, on important areas of savings.
DELAY IN PROCESSING ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Another matter of concern to the Committee is the undue delay in rece1vmg answers to requests for additional information put by Senators during hearings. The Committee is aware of the difficulties posed by the large number of such questions and of this year's delay in the production of Hansard. Nevertheless, Departments should not rely solely upon Hansard as a 'conduit', and it is the responsibility of officers to take an accurate account of questions as they come to hand. A lack of proper note taking was evidenced by the officers of the Department of the Special Minister of State in their second meeting with the Committee. A number of questions had been asked a week earlier on the extension of a contract to Sky-West for off-shore surveillance. Officers could provide only minimal explanations of this issue. The Committee expects that in future officers representing all Departments will ensure that adequate records are taken, and that as a result written answers will be forwarded much earlier.
On a related matter, the Committee is concerned by the apparent hesitation by an officer from the Department of Defence to directly provide information requested by the Committee. The incident concerned Expenditure for Defence Co-operation Training in Australia [Division 240, Item 01 ]. The Committee sought details on the number of personnel from other countries that have trained in Australia in the previous financial year. In addition, the Committee sought specific details on the rank of persons being trained and the type of training being undertaken.
The officer in question referred the Committee to the Department's submission and Evidence to the inquiry by the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence into Australia's Defence Co-operation with its neighbours in the Asian Pacific region, which he maintained contained the information being sought. In fact, subsequent examination revealed that the documents did not contain all the required information. Although the Committee has since received satisf actory answers to this question from the Department, the Committee records its disappointment at the response from the officer. 32
In relation to the Attorney-General's Department, the Committee notes its serious disappointment that, as at tabling date, it has not received details of judges sitting days for the Federal Court of Australia as requested by the Committee on 3 Ma y 1984. The Committee has already received similar information in relation to the Family Court, and draws the attention of the Senate to the Department's delay.
IN CREASED SECURITY FOR FAMILY COURT JUDGES
In its examination of the additional estimates of the Attorney-General's Department the Committee questioned officers on an amount of $80,000 sought to cover the increased cost of security for the Family Court. The amount is solely concerned w ith the provision of additional protection at the homes of Family Court Judges. The Committee notes the involvement of the Australian Federal Police which has responsibility for security at Family Court premises. The Committee trusts that the
Department and the Australian Federal Police can devise a scheme which will provide adequate security for Family Court Judges. The Committee notes that the Australian Federal Police comes within the responsibility of the Department of the Special Minister of State, and hopes that co-operation between the Departments will be productive.
COMMONWEALTH TRAINING SCHEME IN UGANDA
During the consideration of the estimates of the Department of Defence the Committee questioned officers on the availability of a report on the activities of A ustral ian Defence Force as a component of the Commonwealth Training Scheme in Uganda. Officers of the Department had no knowledge of such a report and
referred the Committee to the Department of Foreign Affairs, with the same result. It is a matter of concern to the Committee that neither Department could give the Parliament details of a report on the two years of activity of the Australian component of this Training Scheme. 4. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance given by the Attorney " General and the Officers of the various departments and authorities who appear before the Committee.
30 May 1984
EN D NOT ES
K. W . SIBRAA Chairman
[D epartment of D efence-230.1.05 and 06, Han sard pp. 202-203; Defence Support-265.1.01, Han sard p. 233]
33
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No. 8
Thursday, 5 April 1984 I. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 9.15 a.m. in Senate Committee Rooms 1 and 2. The Chairman (Senator Sibraa) took the Chair. 2. MEMBERSHIP : The Chairman reported that Senator MacGibbon had replaced Senator Watson as a member of the Committee pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate on 4 April 1984.
3. ORDER OF HEARINGS: It was agreed to proceed with examination of Departmental estim ates in the following order: Department of Defence, Department of Defence Support, Attorney-General's Department, Department of Foreign Affairs (including the A ustralian Development Assistance Bureau), Department of the Special Minister of State. 4. APPROACH TO QUESTIONING : The Committee agreed that there w as no need for questions to be prepared for members and that the additional estimate s of each Department be considered by divisions and sub-divisions . 5. ADJOURNMENT : The Committee adjourned at 9.25 a.m. 6. ATTENDANCE : Senator Sibraa, Senator Tate and Senator MacGibbon .
CONFIRMED :
K . W . SIBR AA
Chairman
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No. 9
Thursday, 3 May 1984 I. MEETING : The Committee met at 2.30 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Sibraa) took the Chair. 2. STA TEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman reported the Resoluti on of the Senate on 3 April 1984, and made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the estimates . 3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE
1983-84- DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE. In Attendance: Senator the Honourable G . W. Evans, Attorney-General represent " ing the Minister for Defence accompanied by the following officers :
34
Department of Defence Mr A. K. Wrigley, Deputy Secretary B M r G. P. Anderson, Assistant Secretary , Defence Facilities Program Management M r G. E . Barlow, Deputy Chief Defence Scientist Rear Admiral R . R. Calder, Chief of Naval Technical Services Mr C. D. Campbell, Acting Chief of Supply Air Vice Marshal B. H. Collings, Chief of Joint Operations and Plans Commodore 0 . R . Cooper, Deputy Chief, Naval Materiel Mr R . W. Corey, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning- Arm y C aptain H. J. Donohue, Director of Naval Plans Mr W . Drysdale, Chief Executive Officer, Budgets and Estimates- N avy Mr R . K. Ellis , Assistant Director, Natural Disasters Organisation Policy
Support Mr R . H . Englund, Assistant Secretar y, M anpower Policy and Requirem ents Mr R. B. Finnegan, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Industrial Air Vice Marshal R . G. Funnell, Chief of Air Force Operations and Plans
Air Vice Marshal A. E. Heggen, Chief of Air Force Materiel Mr P. A . Hemsley, Assistant Secretary, Science and Technology Administration Brigadier C. H . Kahn, Director General, Recruiting Mr M. Kargas, Acting Chief Executive Officer, Budgets and Estimates
(Co-ordination and Review) Mr D . M. McAlister, First Assistant Secretary, Programmes and Budgets Mr L. A. McGee, Assistant Secretary, Quality Assurance and Engineering Resources Mr J. E. McMahon, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning- Navy Mr M. L. Murdoch, Acting Chief Executive Officer, Program and Resources
Analysis Mr M. J. Murray, Assistant Secretary , Resources Planning- Air Force Mr J. A. Nockels, Senior Assistant Secretary, International Policy Mr P. M . Oldham, Acting Director, Finance and General Services Mr J. S. O 'Neill, Assistant Secretary, Budgets and Estimates (General and
Co-ordination) Mr A. I. C. Pratt, Assistant Secretary, International Policy-Papua New Guinea and Defence Co-operation Programs Mr N . B. Rudkin, Acting Assistant Secretary, Project Planning and Evaluation Rear Admiral B. T. Treloar, Chairman, Services Health Policy Committee Brigadier B. Wade, Director General of Operations and Plans- Army Department of Finance
Mr B. J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr W. J. Turner, Acting Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration.
Divisions 230 to 250- $115,456,000 (Document A) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expend " iture for the Department of Defence, subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information. 4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE
1983-84- DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE SUPPORT In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Gareth Evans, Attorney-General, repre " senting the Minister for Defence Support, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Defence Support
Mr P. G. Gifford, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr K . T . Lyon, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Resources Division Mr C. Barclay, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Defence Industry and Purchasing Mr B. Oxley, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Personnel and Management
Co-ordination Division Mr M . C. Morrison, Acting Controller, Defence Aerospace Division Mr L. M . Targ, Acting Principal Executive Officer, Defence Aerospace Division Mr L. J. Wrigley, Acting First Assistant Controller, Munitions Division Mr A. P. Toohey, Acting Principal Executive Officer, Munitions Division Mr R. T. Roberts, Acting Assistant Controller, Defence Shipbuilding Division Mr P. Breitkopf, Principal Executive Officer, Shipbuilding Division Mr J. M. Pearson, Acting Assistant Secretary, Budgets, Accounting and
Supply Branch Mr J. W. Pollard, Acting Director, Accounting and Supply, Policy and Systems, Budgets, Accounting and Supply Branch
35
Mr E. Smith, Acting Director, Programs and Estimates Budgets, Accounting and Supply Branch ;
Mr L. Dearden, Acting Director, Programme Management Section Facilities and Working Environment Branch Mr L. C. R. Thompson, Assistant Secretary, Personnel and Admjb.istration Branch Mr G. F. Waite, Acting Assistant Secretary, Marketing Branch Mr R. Smith, Acting Assistant Secretary, Contracts Administration Branch Mr B. Scrivener, Principal Executive Officer, Industry Strategy Branch Mr B. Duffel, Acting Accountant, Personnel and Administration Branch Mr G. Truisk, Acting Director, Strategic Planning and Co-ordination Section,
Computing and Systems Branch Department of Finance Mr B. J. Gleeson, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr W. J. Turner, Acting Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply
Division
The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 255 to 260 (Document A)-$17,433,000 The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Defence Support, subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information. 5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S DEPARTMENT In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Gareth Evans, Attorney-General , accompanied by the following officers:
36
Attorney-General's Department Mr L. G. Glare, Deputy Secretary Mr L. J. Curtis, Deputy Secretary Mr T. A. Sharman, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr J. H. Greenwell, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr P. R. Loof, First Assistant Secretary, Justice and Administrative Law
Division Mr J. L. M. Carnsew, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division Mr E. Willheim, First Assistant Secretary, General Counsel Division Mr P. F. McDonald, First Assistant Secretary, Litigation Division Mr E. Wright, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Special Projects Division Mr J. B. Fisher, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Commercial and Drafting
Division Mr C. C. Creswell, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Business Affairs Division Mr R. J. Morgan, Senior Assistant Secretary, Legal Services Co-ordination
Division Mr C. B. S. Fernando, Senior Assistant Secretary, Family Law Branch Mr R. G. Moss, Senior Assistant Secretary, Legal Aid Branch Mr R. Chapman, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Financial Assistance
Branch Mr R. Smeaton, Assistant Secretary, Management Improvement Branch Mr T. Heming, Assistant Secretary, ADP Branch Mr M . G. Dwyer, Acting Assistant Secretary, Special Services Branch Mr R. Venables, Acting Assistant Secretary , Operations Branch Mr P. Wenn, Inspector General in Bankruptcy, Community Affairs Division Mr A. Green, Chief Reporter, Commonwealth Reporting Service Mr B. Knox, Principal Registrar, Family Court of Australia Mr J. Howard, Registrar, Federal Court of Australia Mr P. Massie, Registrar, Administrative Appeals Tribunal
Mr A. A. Hardiman, Acting Director, Legal Aid Commission (A.C.T.) Mr R. Schoer, Executive Director, National Companies and Securities Commission. Mr H . Spier, First Assistant Commissioner, Trade Practices Commission Mr R . Wyatt, Assistant Commissioner, Trade Practices Commission Mr W. Miller, Assistant Secretary, Australian Institute of Criminology Mrs D. Higgins, Acting Assistant Director, Officer of the Director of Public
Prosecutions Mr R. Krauss, Acting Director, Finance Department of Finance Mr D . K . Wallace, Assistant Secretary, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called the following Divisions for consideration:
Divisions 165 to 190- (Document A) $7,191,000 Divisions 818 to 821 - (Document B) $16,000 The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Attorney-General's Department, subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information. 6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS
In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Gareth Evans, Attorney-General, representing the Minister for Foreign Affairs accompanied by the following officers: Department of Foreign Affairs Mr P. G. F. Henderson, Secretary
Mr M. G . D. Williams, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management and Foreign Service Division Mr G. R. Bentley, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Management and Foreign Service Division Mr J. L. Lavett, Assistant Secretary, OECD, European Communities' and
Energy Branch Mr T. B. McCarthy, Assistant Secretary, Consular and Passports Branch Mr G. R. Harber, Assistant Secretary, Security and Communications Branch Mr H. C. Mott, Assistant Secretary, International Organisations and Refuge
Branch Mr W. C. Rowe, Acting Assistant Secretary, Systems Development Branch Mr R. C . G. Martin, Acting Assistant Secretary, Operations Support Branch, ADAB Mr J. A. Gleeson, Director, Resources Planning & Liaison Unit Mr E. Harty, Director, ADP Section Mr J. B. Campbell, Head, UN Economic Agencies, Section
Mr R. J. Polack, Acting Director, Finance Section Australian Development .Assistance Bureau Mr J. Powell, Assistant Secretary, Programs Planning and Review Branch Mr R. C. G. Martin, Acting Assistant' Secretary, Operations Support Branch
Mr F. Wojtaszak, Acting Head, Strategic Planning Section Mr R . Tinning, Head, Operations Review Section Department of Finance ...
Mr D . K. Wallace, Assistant Secretary, Accounting and Supply DIVISion The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Division 315 to 319 (Document A) $9 235 000 Division 873 (Document B) $300 000 . . .
The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Foreign Affairs, subject to undertakings by the Minister to provide additional information.
37
7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF SPECIAL MINISTER OF STATE In Attendance: The Honourable Gareth Evans, Attorney-Genera!, representing the Special Minister of State, accompanied by the following officers:
Department of Special Minister of State Executive: Mr J. R. Holdich, Deputy Secretary Parliamentary and General Division:
Mr P. O'Neill, Acting Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary and Ministerial Services Branch Mr J. Malone, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Information Co-ordination Branch Mr R. Webb, Acting Assistant Secretary, Electorate Grants and Authorities
Branch Mr H. Keen, Assistant Secretary, Honours Secretariat Police Affairs and ADP Division: Mr G . M. Quigley, Assistant Secretary, Police Affairs Branch
Mr E. L. Knaus, Assistant Secretary, ADP Branch Protective Services Co-ordination Centre: Mr T. Mooney, O.B.E., Assistant Secretary, Police and Planning Branch Resource Management Branch:
Mr J. Gavin, Assistant Secretary Mr P. Hempel, Director, Finance and Services Section Remuneration Tribunal: Mr A. A. Shakespeare, Secretary Commonwealth Grants Commission:
Mr A. A. Glasson, Secretary Australian Bureau of Criminal Intelligence: Mr V. A. Anderson, QPM, Assistant Commissioner Mr R. Redfern, Executive Officer Australian Federal Police:
Mr J. D. Reilly, Assistant Commissioner Mr J. Ireland, Executive Officer, Administration Australian Electoral Commission: Mr A. Cirulis, Deputy Commissioner
Mr E. Klatt, Acting Director, Finance and General Services Section Mr P. Anderson, Acting Director, Information and Education Section Mr M. Maley, Principal Research Officer, Research and Legislation Section Department of Finance:
Mr P. K. Wallace, Assistant Secretary, Accounting and Supply Division. The Chairman called on Division 575 for consideration: 8. NEXT MEETING: The Committee agreed to complete consideration of the Additional Estimates of the Department of the Special Minister of State at a meeting set down for Wednesday, 9 May 1984 between 8.00 p.m. and 10.30 p.m. 9. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.20 p.m.
10. ATTENDANCE: Senator Sibraa (Chairman) and Senators Durack, Tate, Reynolds, Scott and Macdibbon. Senators Kilgariff, Boswell, Archer and Walters also attended. CONFIRMED:
38
K. W. SIBRAA Chairman
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 10
Wednesday, 9 May 1984 1. MEETING: The Committee met at 7.45 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Sibraa) took the Chair. 2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF SPECIAL MINISTER OF STATE.
In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Gareth Evans, Attorney-General, representing the Special Minister of State, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Special Minister of State Executive:
Mr J. R. Holdich, Deputy Secretary Parliamentary and General Division: Mr P. O 'Neill, Acting Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary and Ministerial Services Branch
Mr J. Malone, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Information Co-ordination Branch Mr R. Webb, Acting Assistant Secretary, Electoral Grants and Authorities Branch Mr M . Domney , Honours Secretariat Mr J. Thomson, Assistant Secretary, Australian Government Advertising
Service
Police Affairs and ADP Division: Mr W. McCann, Assistant Secretary, Public Order Branch Mr G . M. Quigley, Assistant Secretary, Police Affairs Branch Mr E. L. Knaus, Assistant Secretary, ADP Branch Protective Services Co-ordination Centre:
Mr T. Mooney, OBE, Assistant Secretary, Policy and Planning Branch Resource Management Branch: Mr J. Gavin, Assistant Secretary Mr P. Hempel, Director, Finance and Services Section Commonwealth Grants Commission:
Mr A. A . Glasson, Secretary Australian Bureau of Criminal Intelligence: Mr V. A . Anderson, QPM, Assistant Commissioner Mr R. Redfern, Executive Officer Australian Federal Police:
Mr J. D . Reilly, Assistant Commissioner Mr S. Gavin, Chief Executive Officer Mr A. 1. Watt, Assistant Commissioner Australian Electoral Commission: Mr E. Klatt, Acting Director, Finance and General Services Section Mr P. Anderson, Acting Director, Information and Education Section
Mr A. Cirulis, Deputy Commissioner Department of Finance Ms P. A. Lyndon, Finance Officer, Supply Division, Accounting and Supply Division The Committee continued discussion on issues raised in relation to Division 575
(Document A) and the Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 576 to 581 (Document A) $12 905 000 Division 958 (Document B) $1 714 000
39
The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of the Special Minister of State, subject to undertakings by the M inister to provide additional information. 3. ADJOURNMENT : The Committee adjourned at 9.20 pm . 4. ATTENDANCE: Senator Sibraa (Chairman) and Senators Durack, Reynolds, Scott and MacGibbon . 5. APOLOGY : Senator Tate. CONFIRMED:
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No . 11
Tuesday, 29 May 1984
K . W . SIBRA A Chairman
1. MEETING: The committee met in deliberative session at 6.30 p.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 5. 2 CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the meetings held on 5 Apr, 3 May and 9 May were confirmed. 3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the Chairman's draft report to the Senate.
Resolved: that the draft report be agreed to subsequent to certain amendment s. 4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 7.00 p.m. 5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Sibraa (Chairman), MacGibbon, Scott, Durack and Tate. 6. APOLOGIES: Apologies were received from Senators Reynolds and Scott. CERTIFIED CORRECT:
40
K . W. SIBR AA Chairman
Estimates Committee F
REPORT TO THE SENATE
Estimates Committee F has the honour to present its Report to the Senate. I. On 3 April 1984, the Senate referred to the Committee the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Year 1983-84 relating to the Department of Veterans' Affairs, Department of Transport, Department of Aviation, Department of Administrative Services and the Department of Territories and Local Government.
2. The Committee has considered the Additional Estimates of the Departments, together with the Departmental Explanatory Notes, and has received evidence in relation to them from the Minister for Veterans' Affairs (Senator the Honourable Arthur Gietzelt) and others of the Departments concerned. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1983-84 and Appropriation Bill (No.4) 1983-84. 3. Answers to questions which were deferred and subsequently given in writing since the Committee's last hearings will be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committee's hearings. 4. The Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance given by the Minister
for Veterans' Affairs and the officers of the various departments and authorities who appeared before the Committee.
May 1984 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
No. 6
Thursday, 3 May 1984
GEORGE GEORGES
Chairman
1. PRIVA TE MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 2.05 p.m . in Senate Committee Rooms No. I and 2. The Chairman (Senator Georges) took the Chair. 2. MANNE R OF EXAMINING THE ADDITIONAL ESTIMATES : It was
agreed to proceed with the examination of departmental additional estimates in the following order: Department of Veterans' Affairs, Department of Transport, Department of Aviation, Department of Administrative Services and the Department of Territor ies and Local Government. It was further agreed to proceed with the examination of the additional estimates by division, by sub-division and as necessary by item, in the order in which they were presented in the Committee.
3. PUBLIC MEETING: At 2.07 p.m. the Committee met in public session. 4. STA TE M ENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman reported the Resolution of the Senate of 3 April 1984, and made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the additional estimates. 5. PARTICUL ARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-
84- DEPARTM EN T OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Arthur Gietzelt, Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Veterans' Affairs
Mr D. Volker, Secretary Ms J. McGirr, Deputy Chairman, Repatriation Commission Mr J. Cqsgrove, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management Services Division
41
Mr P. Rake, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance, Management Services Division Ms F. Howarth, Acting Assistant Secretary, Secretarial and Policy Co " ordination, Management Services Division Mr P. Keogh, Acting Assistant Secretary, Personnel and Establishment s,
Management Services Division Mr L. Bower, Director, Industrial and Conditions, Management Services Division Mr C. Stewart, Director, Public Relations and Publicity, Management Services
Division Dr J. Mould, Deputy Chief Director, Medical Services, Medical Services Division Dr P. Misson, Assistant Chief Director, Medical Services, Medical Services
Division Mr B. O'Shannassy, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Treatment Services Division Dr G. Brooks, Acting Assistant Secretary, Departmental Health, Treatment
Services Division Mr T. Healey, Assistant Secretary, Treatment Services Division Mr M . Letts, First Assistant Secretary, Benefits and Special Projects Division Mr B. Manning, Assistant Secretary, Special Projects, Benefits and Special
Projects Division Mr K. Bell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Benefits, Benefits and Special Project s Division Mr N. Bayles, Acting Director, Benefits Policy, Benefits and Special Projects
Division Mr G. E. Fitzgerald, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Systems Division Mr A. J. Selleck, General Manager, Defence Service Homes Division Mr R. Taylor, Acting Director, Finance Management, Defence Service
Homes Division Mr T. Ashford, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Legal Services Division Mr P. Young, Director, Office of Australian War Graves Mr J. O'Connor, Project Leader, Resource Management , Income-Assets Task
Force
Department of Finance Mr T. J. O'Brien, Senior Finance Officer, Social Security Division Ms P. A. Lyndon, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Minister for Veterans' Affairs made an introductory statement. The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consider ation:
Division 690-693 (Document A) Division 984-986 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Veterans' Affairs, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee. 6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Arthur Gietzelt, Minister for Veterans' Affairs, accompanied by the following officers :
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Department of Transport Mr M. J. Hutchinson, First Assistant Secretary , Management and Co- â‘ ordination Mr N. Waslin, First Assistant Secretary, Roads Division Mr P. Merner, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Land Transport Policy
Division
Mr R. Budd, Assistant Secretary, Road Safety Division Mr W. P. Crone, Senior Assistant Secretary, Marine Operations Division Mr K. G. HaHpt, Acting Assistant Secretary, Sea Transport and Policy Division
Mr D. Steele, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Services Branch Mr A. Hannink, Director , Programs and Budgets Section, Finance and Services Branch Mr J. Walker, Senior Finance Officer, Programs and Budgets Section, Finance
and Services Branch Mr F. Keith, Acting Secretary, Inter-State Commission Mr R. Ande-rson, Acting Executive Officer, Inter-State Commission Mr F. D. Simmonds, Director, Coastwatch Policy Department of Finance
Ms P. A. Lyndon, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 664-668 (Document A) Division 974 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Transport, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee. 7. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE
1983-84- DEPARTMENT OF AVIATION In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Arthur Gietzelt, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Aviation
Mr E. P. R . Bowen, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Resources Division Mr A. G. Kinloch, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch Mr P. Flint, Acting Director, Budget Section Mr G. Harper, Finance Officer, Budget Section Mr R. C. O'Day, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management Services
Division Mr J. W. Huggett, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Airports Division Mr J. F. Moffatt, Assistant Secretary, Airport Management Branch Mr F. E. Yeend, First Assistant Secretary, Flight Standards Division Mr H . B. O'Keetfe, First Assistant Secretary, Airways Division Mr F. J. Adams, Assistant Secretary , Air Traffic Services Branch Mr G . Macionis, Assistant Secretary, Airways Facilities and Emergency
Services Branch Mr A. R. D. Newman, Assistant Secretary, General Aviation Branch, Flight Standards Division Mr J. Thompson, Resource Planning and Co-ordination Unit, Airways
Division Mr J. Hopkins, Acting Director, Bureau of Air Safety Investigation Mr H. Wall, Acting Assistant Secretary, Economic Policy and Investigation Planning Branch Mr N. Potter, Assistant Secretary , Economic Investigations Branch Mr P. Scott, Secretary, Independent Airfares Committee Department of Finance
Ms P. A. Lyndon, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division the Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 193-194 (Document A) the Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Aviation, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.
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8. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE 1983-84-DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Arthur Gietzelt, accompanied by the following officers :
Department of Administrative Services Mr A. R. Palmer, Deputy Secretary Mr J. W. Sleep, Surveyor-General, Australian Survey Office Mr J. B. Lleonart, First Assistant Secretary, Information Services Division Mr C. J. Thompson, Senior Assistant Secretary , Australian Government
Publishing Service Branch, Information Services Division Mr A. A. Hillier, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division Mr M. Wood , Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch, Management Division Mr G . J. Hackett, Acting Director, Estimates and Expenditure Section,
Management Division Mr W. D. Kennedy, Director of Property, Property Directorate Mr D. Rome, Acting Assistant Secretary, Accommodation Operations Branch,
Property Directorate Mr P. Westaway, Assistant Secretary, Property Management and Land Branch, Property Directorate Mr G. Cotsell, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary, Overseas Property Office,
Property Directorate Mr G . A. Low, First Assistant Secretary, Purchasing Division Mr G . Drew, Acting Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination and Liaison Branch, Strategic Development Unit Mr B. E. Hinchcliffe, First Assistant Secretary, Transport and Storage
Division
Department of Finance Ms P. A. Lyndon, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration : Divisions 130-132 (Document A)
Division 811 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Administrative Services, subject to an undertaking by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.
9. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE
1983-84- DEPARTMENT OF TERRITORIES AND LOCAL
GOVERNMENT In Attendance: Senator the Honourable Arthur Gietzelt, accompanied by the following officers:
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Department of Territories and Local Government Mr R. J. O'Connell, Acting First Assistant Secretary , Management Service Division Mr M. C. Woods, Assistant Secretary, Finance and Supply Branch Mr W. D. Tyrrell, Director, Programs and Budgets Section Mr A. R. Hedley, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Policy and Program Co "
ordination Division Mr M. M. Van Gelder, Assistant Secretary, Rates Branch Mr R. A. L. Bradford, Acting Assistant Secretary, Policy Co-ordination Branch Mr R. Calvert, Assistant Secretary, Local Government Branch Mr R. G. Gallagher, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Lands Division Mr J. A. Turner, First Assistant Secretary, Parks and Conservation Division
Mr R. J. Donnellan, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Community Services Division Mr B. C. Rope, â‘Commissioner for Housing Mr J. De B. Wall, Assistant Secretary , Welfare Branch Mr V. F. Martisius, Assistant Secretary, Technical Services Branch Mr N. J. Quinn, First Assistant Secretary , Territorie s Division Dr C. Clarke, Assistant Secretary, Indian Ocean Territorie s Branch Mr F. J. L. Brice, Assistant Secretary, Northern Territory and Norfolk Island
Branch
N ational Capital Development Commission Mr B. M. Browning, Secretar y and Manager Mr A. C. Phillips, Assistant Secretary, Program Management Parliament House Construction Authority
Mr G . R . Peatey, Chief Exe~utive Mr J. L. Maher, Assistant Secretary, Business Management Department of Finance Ms P. A . Lyndon, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division T he Chairman called on the following Divisions for consider ation:
Divisions 620-626 (Document A) Divisions 959-961 (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Department of Territories and Local Government, subject to an undertaking from the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.
10. ADJOURNMENT : The Committee adjourned at 6.40 p.m . 11. ATTENDANCE : Senators Georges, Collard, Reid, Robertson and Townley. Senators Chaney and Martin also attended the public session of the Committee. C O N FIRMED.
M INUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 7
uesday, 29 May 1984
GEORGE GEORGES
Chairman
1. MEETING: The Committee met in private session at 7.56 p.m . in Senate Committee Room 5. The Chairman (Senator Georges) took the Chair. ~. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES : The Minutes of the meetings held on 3
Ma y 1984 were confirmed. 3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the Chair " loan's draft Report to the Senate. RESOLVED : That the draft Report be agreed to.
~. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 7.58 p.m.
?â‘ ATTENDANCE : Senator Georges, Collard and Richardson. CERTIFIED CORRECT. GEORGE GEORGES
Chairman
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