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Bonuses [Bounties] for Manufactures Bill - Report of Royal Commission


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1407

1904.

THE PARLIAMENT OF THE OF AUSTRALIA ..

REPORT FROM 'l' IJ E

ROYAL COMMISSION

ON THE

BO NUSES FOR MANUF ACTlT RES BILL,

TOGETHER WITH THE

PROCEEDINGS, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDICES.

Presented by Command; ordered to be printed, 2nd 1904.

[Cost oj P cc,J;e r. - -P reparat ion, noL given; 1,200 1;opies ; approximate eost of 1 r i:JLin g and publishing, £ 199j.

PrinLed ant! P ublished for t he G ovEttNMENT of t he C oMMONWEALTU o f A u:;TRALIA by RoeT. S. i3B.A il<, Government Printer for the State of Victoria.

No. 2.-F. I 050 L

•

1409

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA.

TENNYSON.

GREETING-

EDWARD, bY_ t!te (}race of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the British Dornmwns beyond the Seas, Ktng, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of I ndia.

TO our trusty and well-b eloved Councillors the Right lionomble CHARLES CAMERON KINGS'l'ON P.C. K G .. our Ministe1· of S tate for Tmde and Custorns; the Right H onomble Sir E;WAR; NICHOLAS CovENTRY BRADDON, P .C., K. C.ffl.G., Member of the House of R epresentatives.

TO 01tr trusty and well-beloved the Honorable SAMUEL WINTER CoOKE, Memb er of the House of R epresentatives ; JOSEPH CooK, Esquire, Jli ember of the H ouse of R epresentatives ; GEORGE WARBURTON Fur"LER, Esq1tire, . M ember of the H ouse of B:epresentatives ; LITTLETON ERNEST GROOM, Esqutre, M embe1· of the H ouse of R epresentatives; WILLIAM MOlmiS H uGHES, E squire, .Member of the llo1tse of R epresentatives ; J o HN WATERS K IRWAN, E sq1tiTe, .Memb er of the H ouse of R epresentatives ; SAMUEL MAUGER, Esqui•·e, jJfember of the H01t8e of R ep1·esentatives ; D AviD WATKINS, Esqui1·e, Member of the H ouse of R qyre ­ sentatwes _; J OHN CHRISTIAN WATSON, E squu·e, jJJ embe1· of the H ouse of R epresentatives.

KNOW ye that we do, by these our L ette1·s Patent, ap1Joint yo1t to be Commissioners to inqui1·e into the provisions of a Bill Jm­ an Act Relatmg to Bonuses for the Encouragement of Jliamtfactu•·es introd·uced in to the H o1tse of R epresentatives in the last Session of the Parliament of ou1· Commonwealth of A ustmlia, and to continue the inquiTy commenced by a Select Committee of the JJ ousc of R epresentatives in relation to the said Bill ; and we appoint you the said CHARLES KINGSTON to be t h e ChaiTman of the said Commissioners ; and we direct that at any m eeting of the said C01mnissione1·s three Commissione1·s shall be s1tffi-cient to constttute a quorum, and may proceed with the inquiTy intrusted to yon 1mder these our L etters Patent, notwithstanding the

ab ence of the other Commissioners; and we f urther direct that in the event of the absence of the Chairman fr om any meeting of the satd Commissioners, the Commissioners prese nt may appoint one of their number to act as Chairman during such absence ; and we /1trther direct that in the event of the votes given on any question at any m eeting of the said Comrnissisoners being e:Jual , the Chainnan, if present, and i f the Chairman is not present, then the Cornrnissioner appointed to act as Chainnan tn hts absence, shall have a second or casting vote ; AND we requi1·e you, with as little delay as possible, to 1'Cpo1·t to our

Governor-General in and over our said Commonwealth the result of your inquiries into the mattas intrustecl to you by these o1tr Letters Patent : I N TESTil\10NY WHEB,EOF we have caused these ou1· L etters to be made patent and the Seal of our said Commonwealth to be thereunto affixed.

(L.S.)

WITNESS our trusty and well-b eloved the Bight Honorable HALLAM, BARON T ENNYSON, Knight Commander of Most Distinguished 01·deT of Saint 1YI ichael and Saint GeoTge, our Governor-Geneml and Commander-in-Chief in and ove1· our Commonwealth of Australia, at Melbourne, this fi ft eenth day of J anuw·y, One thousand nine hundred and thTee, and in the

second year of our reign.

By His Excellen01j's Command, EDMUND BARTON. E NTERED on record by me in R egister of Patents No. 1, 1Jage 151, this sixteenth clay of J anuary, One thousand nine hundred and thre.e.

ATLEE H UNT,

S ecretary, Departlnent of External Affairs.

COJlOION WEALTH OF AUSTRALIA.

TENNYSON, Governor-General.

GREETING-

EDWARD, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great 1J1·itain and h-eland, and of the 1J1·itish Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender of the Faith, Empemr of I ndia. TO our trusty and well-beloved the Honorable J AMES WHI'l'ESIDE M cCAY, a of the llouse of R epresentatives.

WHEREAS by L etters Pate'(li; under the hand of our Governor-General of the Commonwealth of A dated the fi ft eenth day of January, One thousand nine hundred and three, ou1· trusty and well-b eloved Counc,llors Rtght Honorable CHARLES CAMERON KINGSTON, P .C., K.C., our Minister of State for Tmcle and Customs; and the R

the Honorable SAMUEL WINTER CooKE, jJfembe1· of the House of R epresentatives ; JosEPH CooK, Esqu•·â€¢·e, jJJrmbc•· of the House of R epresentatives; GEORGE WARBURTON FuLLER, Esq1tire, j)!J em.ber of the House of Lo :rnETON E RNEST GROOM, Esquire, M ember of the House of R ew eseniatives ; WILLIAM MoRRIS E squu·e, 1lie;n &er of th e llc11

Memb er of the House of R epresentatives; DAVID WA'l'KINS, Esquire, M ember of the H ouse of w .d JoHN

CHRISTIAN WATSON, EsquiTe, Member of the House of Representatives, weTe appointed to be Comnt>SSWIWI'S to

by a Select Committee of the H ouse of Representatives in relaiwn to the satcl Btll : WHEBEAS tt. •s dest•a&le to a1-1 G 111t you to be a Commissioner to act together with the Commissioners appointed by the aatd Letters Patent the matter o f the sat d inquir : NOW THEREFORE we do by these our Letters P atent ctppoint yo1t to be a to mqutre tnto the

provisrons of the said Bill, and to continue the said inquiry by a _Select C01nmtttee of H ouse of R eF c:

sentatives in relation to the said Bill, to act together with the Commtsswners appotnted by the satcl Lettels Patent and effectually and to the same extent as if your name had been inserted in the sa•d L etters Patent as of .the Ccmmtsswners thereby appointed: AND we dinct that the said L etters Patent be 1·ead m!d construed as •f yow appealed therew as one of the Commissioners thereby appointed : I N TESTDI0:0:Y WHEBEOF tee have cau sed these our L ette1s to be

made patent and the Seal of our saicl Commonwealth to be thereunto affi-:red. WITNESS our trusty and well -belo ved the Right Hono1·able HALLA)[, BA RO:S TE:SKYSOK, K nig!tt Commander of our jJJ ost Distinguished Order of Samt Jlltchael und Sa•ut George,. GU 1 ( ) Governo1·-General and Commander-in-Chief in and over ouT Con!nwmcealth of Australw , < t

L .S. 1J!Ielbourn e, this twenty-thiTd clay of F ebruary, One thousand ntne hw;drcd and thr cl', and

in the thiTd year of our reign.

By His Excellency's Comm-and, A LFRED DEAKI N . ENTERED on R ecord by me in R egister of Patents J>."o. 1, page 152, this t1centy-third day of F ebruary, One tho usand nine

hundred and three.

A1'LEE 1-J UKT,

S ecretary, D epa rtment of External Affairs.

a 2

Royal Commissions

R eport

CON'r

Proceedings of the Select Committee and the R oyal Commission

List of Witnesses and Appendices

Minutes of Evidence taken before the Select Committee

Minutes of Evi:lence taken before the R oyal Commission

Appendices

Ill

vii

xi, xiii

X I X

l

42

] 7 4

14 11

14 13

REPORT.

To His E xcellenr..v tlt e Right HonoralJle rL\ LLAlVI, BARON TENNYSON, Knight Grctncl Cros.'! of tlt e Mo st Di.c:tiuguished Order rzf Saint Jl1ir!t rrPl aucl Swiut George, Gocernor-General aurl Cormnander-ht-Chirf iu and ocer Conunomuealth q( Aztstralia.

MAY IT PLEASE YouR ExcELLENCY-We, the Commissioners appointe(! by R oyal Commission, elated 15th January, 1903, to inquire into the provisions of a Bill for an Act relating to Bonuses for the encouragement of manufactures,

introduced into the House of Representatives in the last session of the Parliament and to continue the inquiry commence(l Ly a Select Committee of the House of Representatives in relation to the said Bill___:.have the honour to report as follows:--1. The . Select Committee held six meetings as follow--at Melbourne . (4), and at Sydney (2), and examined fiv e ·witnesses. The evidence taken by

the Select Committee accompanies this Report, anu has been duly considered, together with the evidence which we have taken as Commissioners.

2. In the course of our inquiry thirty-five witnesses have been examined and meetings have been held at the following places:- -Melbourne (14), Sydney (i>), Brisbane (2), Newcastle (2), and Lithgow (2).

3. The evidence has satisfied us that all the materials necessary for the manufacture of iron from its ores are to be found in various parts of Australia in large quantity and of good quality, and under conditions suitable for the successful establishment of the industry under proper encouragement.

4. Particulars of some of the chief iron mines which are at present known to exist in the Commonwea,lth .are contained in tho evide!lce. to!.tethe!· ,.vith the results of assays. . .

5. Little attention has hithmto been given to iron mining in Australia, and your Commissioners are of opinion that future operations are likely to result in further valuable discoveries of iron deposits . . , 6. Iron and steel are largely consumed in the Commonwca.lth, as appears

from the figures contained in the two succeeding paragraphs.

7. The following are particulars of the iron and steel imported into the Commonwealth during the year 1902 :-P ig-iron ... 28,029 tons, valued at £98,373

Bar and Rod 38,282 tons, valued at £334,636

P late and Sheet 22,627 tons, v.alued at £178,548

Scrap 10,408 tons, valued at £32,907

Galvanized Iron H ,53S tom, valued at

Rails . . . valued at £:)9l, i:i :2:l

Wire (plain) valued a t £ 3G9,3 t> 3

Wire (barbed) valu eJ at £il.-l26

Wire Netting Yal ued at ±:1 35, 16 9

Pipes at. £298, 18:).

In addition, iron and steel machinery to the qlnc of £:2,0:22,;)15 wa.s also impmtc(l during the same period.

viii

8. The following are particulars of the annual average of iron and steel imported into the Commonwealth during the five years ending 31st "D ecember, 1902 :- · Pig Iron ...

Bar and Rod Scrap Galvanizecl Tron Plate and ShC'ct RailR Wire (plain) Wire (barbed) Wire Netting Pipes The annual average value of Iron and

Steel Machinery importfld during the same peri od was

32,046 tons, valued at. £ 1:20,96:3 59,8 1t9 tons, va lu ed at £fi25,965 8, 431 tons, vfll ued at ±::iO, 1 :30 45,295 tons, valu ed nt £778,666 valued at £151,9+7 vn.lued at £401,675

val ued n.t £3 12,755 valued at £60,449 valued at £ 70,6 10 valued at £304,935

£1,764,041.

9. Some attempts have been made in different places in .\ ustralia t o manu- · facture iron fro m its ores, but the industry has not yet been successfully establi shed, and very considerable capital appears to be needed for the purpose.

10. \Ve are of opinion that if the manufacture of iron and steel were success­ fully established in the Commomvealth it ·would be of great public advantage for various reasons, of which the principal are-(a) It would be an important addition to Australian industries, giving

employment to capital and labour. The iron industry is by many well described as the foundation of all other industries. (b) The local supply of material would be a great advantage to

local

11. In our opinion it is desirable to encourage the local establishment of this industry.

12. Encouragement is specially needed in the initial stage of the industry to secure th e requisite capital. The existence of powerful ri val vested interests else­ where and the novelty of the enterprise, so far as · Australia is concerned, induce some hesitation in investing on the part of capitalists.

13. Your Commissioners are of that the necessary encouragement can best be supplied in the form of a bonus on the manufacture of iron and steel from Australian ores.

14. Your Commissioners draw attention to the fact that the bonus system of Canada has immensely stimulated iron and steel production in the Dominion, and your Commissioners are sanguine that the course now proposed will be pro­ .ductive of good results in Australia.

. 15. Your Commissioners do not lose sight of the fact that the bonus syst em in Canada was accompanied by a cluty on imports. Your Commissioners, however, do not recommend the immediate imposition of a Customs duty, as, pending a local supply sufficient for Australian requirements, the result might be to t emporarily raise the price to the consumer, which should be avoided.

16. Your Commissioners have obtained the annexed opinion of the Honorable the Attorney-General, which shows that the power ·of the Common­ wealth to conduct manufactures is limited as mentioned in the opinion.

17. No evidence has been produced which would lead your Commissioners to believe that any State Government contemplates undertaking the establishment of iron works or any abandonment of its position as indicated in the correspondence between the Federal Government and th e States laid before the House of Repre­ sentatives on the 29th July, 1902.

18. Your Commissioners beli eve that the proposed bonus on spelter would su hstantially encourage the utilization of quantities of zin ciferous ores at Broken Hill. It is estimated that there are now raisecl on the surface and available fo r trratment about 3,500,000 tons of this materi

1415

lX

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19. It has been clearly demonstrated that in connexion with Reapers and Binders, which are not locally manufactured, but ar e chiefly imported from America and Canada, the Australian consumer has been compelled to pay the most exorbitant prices. Machin es worth £1;) or £16 at the port of export have

f[' e(]nently not been procurable at less than £:)£) or £GO by the producer in _.\us­ tralia, though duty free. These prices wore substantially reduced a li ttle before the introduction of the Jiodoral Tariff, but have sin ce boon mise

20. Your Commissioners recommen

of bonuses.

(b) Securing to the Commonwealth or to the State in which the work for the earning of bonus is being chiefly carried on, a right of purchase of the undertaking after a fair interval at a valuation. 21. In conclusion, your Commissioners point out that the most recent events emphasiz e the ever increasing importance of the iron industry, and mark the

question as one to which in our opinion early governmental and parliamentary attention is highly desirable in the interests of Australia.

c. c. KINGSTON, CHAIRMAN. LITTLETON E. GROOM. J. WHITESIDE McCAY.

SAMUEL MAUGER. E BRADDof\.T (Exccptastopamgmph(IJ)ofScc- · • l."' • tion 20, fr om which I dissent.) D AVID \VATKINS.

1. We, the u:t?-dersigned member s of the Commission, are against the passage through Parliament of the Bill for the payment of bonuses by the Federal Government for the establishment of the iron industry ·within the Commonwealth. 2. We recognise that the Commonwealth possesses vast deposits of iron

ore of high grade, coal, &c., for iron works. ,.\ mple evidence has been given to satisfy us on that p oint . Furthermore, we believe it would be a CODSi(lerable advantage to have the industry in operation i11 a flourishing condition, and on a proper basis. In our opinion, however, such a desirable result "·onld not l:e best promote

3. The Bill provides for the payment of £324,000 of the people's money to private individuals engaged in an enterprise for their private gain. There can be no guarantee that the bonuses propose

sp eculative companies.

. 4. 011 e of the witnesses, Mr. Sandforcl, managing director of the Eskbank Iron Works, N mv South Wales, stated that he luul made an agreement with an Engli sh syndir-ate to spend £250,000 in extenfling the Lithgow works if the Bill passed. In answer to another question, l\'Ir. Sandford said that to make pig-iron

he wanted a plant involving an expcn(liturc of from £ ] 00,000 to £ 125,000. This estimate is less than half the sum nro;wsefl to he paid in bonuses.

X

5. The Canadian experience· is not encouraging. The bonus system for iron production was first instituted there in 1883. Subsequently a Bill was passed, in 189 7, further continuing the system. Another Bill was carried in 1899 proviJ.ing for the diminution of the bounties by a sliding scale expiring in 1907. In July of this year the Dominion Government decided to postpone the operation of this sliding scale for one year, which practically means a further increase in the bounties paid.

6. Nearly all the witnesses examined befo re the Commission agreed that the payment of bonuses would be useless unless followed by a duty. Experience shmYs that if the payment of bonuses be commenced the liability of the Commonwealth will not be limited to the sum proposed undel' the Bill, but that further Govern­ ment aid will be sought.

7. The evidence failed to show that there was any commercial necessity for the bonuses proposeJ.. Mr. Sandford said he c;ould produce pig-iron at Lithgow under 35s. a ton. A llowing for freight to Sydney, Melbourne, and other parts of the Commonwealth, he coulti, on this showing, compete favorably wit h any im­ ported pig-iron. Other witnesses, who, however, had less experience than Mr. Sandford, doubted the correctness of hi s estimate of cost. But, on the supposition of his having made an under estimate, he would still, even without a bonus, be in an excellent position as compareJ. with the imported commodity. · .

8. No effort was made to bring forward witnesses against the Bill. Nat­ withstanding that fact, the evidence given failed to estalJlish a case in its favour. Several witnesses thought the establishm ent of ironworks in the Commonwealth premature, and much of the evid ence was strongly against any attempt by the

Government to establish the iron industry by the payment of bonuses.

W. lVI. HUGHES.

SAML. WINTER COOKE.

J . W. KIRWAN. GEORGE V{. FULLER J. CHRIS. WATSON.

JOSEPH COOK.

Xl

PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE .

(Melbourne.)

THURSDAY, 4TH SEPTEMBER, 1902 .

Members present:

The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston, Mr. Mauger,

•

Mr. Joseph Cook, The Hon. J. W. McCay,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Watkins,

Mr. L. E . Groom, Mr. Watson.

1417

The Clerk of Committees read t he Extract from the Vo tes a nd Proceedings of the 2nd September appointing the Committee. The Committee deliberated. The Committee adjourned.

WEDNESDAY, lOTH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Mr. Fuller, Mr. L . E. Groom, Mr. Rugh es, Mr. Kingston was called to the Chair.

Members present : The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston, Mr. Mauger, Mr. Watson.

Ordered-That the following powers be asked from the House by the Chairman, viz.:­ To send for persons, papers, .and records. To move from place to place. To have leave to sit at any time. To report the minutes of from time to time.

The quorum of the Committee to be five when sitting at Parliament House, Melbourne, anu three when sitting elsewhere. Ordered-That the days of sitting of the Committee be Wednesdays and Thursdays in the forenoon. Ordered-That a list of witnesses be drawn up by the Chairman and Mr. Watson.

The Committee adjourned.

(Sydney.)

TUESDAY, 16TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Members present :

Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Hughes,

Mr. Fuller, I Mr. Watkins,

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson.

In the absence of the Chairman, Mr. Watson was called to the Chair pro tern. The minutes of the previous meetings were read and confirmed. Edward Fisher Pittman, Government Geologist, New South Wales, and Under-Secretary for Mines, examined.

John Blockley J acquet, Government Geological Surveyor, Department of Mines and Agriculture, New South Wales, examined. The Committee adjourned until to-morrow, at half-past ten o'clock a.m ..

WEDNESDAY, 17TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Members present: Mr. WATSON, in the Chair ;

Mr. Joseph Cook, \ Mr. L. E. Groom,

Mr. Fuller, 1 Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. John Blockley J acquet, further exami ned. The Co mmittee adjourned until Wednes C! ay next , at half-past ten o'clock a.m.

XV

(Melbourne .)

WEDNESDAY, 24TH SEPTEMBER,

Members present :

The Right. Hon . C. C. KINGSTON, m the Chair; Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Kirwan,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Mauger,

Mr. L. E . Groom, · J Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. William Henry Matthews, Warden and Mining Inspector, South Australia, examined. William Harper Twelvetrees, Government Geologist and Chief Inspector of Mines, Tasm ani a, examined.

The Committee adjourned until to-morrow, at half-past ten o'clock a.m.

THURSDAY, 25TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

111 embers present :

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, in the Chair; Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Fuller, The Hon. J. W. McCay

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson,

Mr. Kirwan, Mr. Watlcins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Resolved (ori the motion of Mr. L. E. Groom)-" That the Governments of Queensland and Western Australia be communicated with by letter, and requested to forward a statement shovving the deposit of iron ore in their States, the places were situated, the distance from the sea -coast, and an analysis of the ore."

William Henry Twelvetrees, further examined. William Jamieson, Chairman, Blythe River Iron Mines Limited, examined. The Committee adjourne d.

X Ill

PROCEEDINGS_ OF_ THE .... COMMISSION.

(Melbourne.)

TUESDAY, 17TH FEBRUARY, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Ron. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman ; Mr. Joseph Cook, The Ron. S. Winter Cooke, The Commission was read .

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watkins.

1419

. IJesolved (on the motion of .Mr. Winter _Gooke)-" That Mr. J . R. McGregor, Assistant Clerk of Commtttees, House of Representattves, be appomted Secretary to the Commission." Resolved (on the motion of Mr. L. E. Groom)-" That the evidence taken before the Select Committee of the House of Representatives on the Bonuses for Ma.nufactures Bill be printed and incorporated with

the evidence taken by the Commission.'' A copy of the evidence taken before the Select Committee was laid before the Commission by the Secretary. Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Watkins)-" That the evidence to be taken before this Commission shall be on oath."

Appendices A and B were put in by the Chairman. Henry York Lyell Brown, Government Geologist, South Australia, sworn ·and examined. The Commissio n adjourned until to-morrow, at half-past two o'clock p.m.

WEDNESDAY, 18TH FEBRUARY, 1903. Commissioners present : The Right Ron. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; Mr. Joseph Cook, . The Ron. J. W . McCay,

The Ron. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Watkins,

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. William Jamieson, Chairman of Directors of the Blythe River Iron Mines LimitE'd, sworn and examined. ·

The Commission adjourned until to-morr?w, at half-past ten o'clock a.m.

THURSDAY, 19TH FEBRUARY, 1903.

Commissioners present : The Right Ron. C. C. K INGSTON, Chairman; Mr. Joseph Cook, The Ron. J. W. McCay,

The Ron. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Watkins,

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Vililliam Sandford, managing director of the Eskbank Iron Works, Lithgow, sworn and examin ed . Hyman Herman, Assistant Director of Geological Survey, Victoria, sworn and examined. Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Watson)-" That the Commission meet again in Melbourne on the 15th April, at half-past two o'clock p.m. , and that the Chairman have power to arrange meetings in New South Wales and Queensland in the meantime."

The Commission adjourned.

(Sydney. )

SATURDAY, 4TH APRIL, 1903. Commissioners present :

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Watkins,

Mr. Mauger, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Mauger)-" That JI.Ir. Watson act as Chairman durin g the absence of the Right Ron. C. C. Kingston." , . . . .

Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Joseph Cook)-" 'I hat the CommiSSion meet at Ltthgow on Monday, Gt h inst., at ten o'clock a.m., for the purpose of inspec tin g Sandfo1d's Ironworks." Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Mauger)-" That the Secretary be instructed to write to the New South Wales Commissioners for Rail ways requesting them to depute an of!icer to give evidence before the

Commission with regard to the special terms, if any, as to fr eights made by the Commissioners in respect t o Sandford's IromYorks at Lithgow, and the policy li kely to be adopted by the Commissioners in re gard to freight in t he event of large ironworks being established at Lithgow and leading to hca\·y traOic th ence to the seaboard. "

The Commission adjourned.

XlV

(Lithgow.)

MONDAY, 6TH APRIL, 1903. Commissioners present : Mr. WATSON, m the Chair;

Mr. J oseph Cook, I Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Commissioners made a visit of inspection to W. Sandford Limited, Esbank Ironw orks, and subsequently inspected the coke ovens of the Oakey Creek Colliery Co. William Thornley, manager of the Eskbank Ironworks, sworn and examined.

Herbert Bladon, iron roller at the Eskbank Ironworks, sworn and examined. William Thornley, recalled and further examined. The Commission adjourned until to-morrow, at half-past nine o'clock a.m.

TUESDAY, 7TH APRIL, 1()03 .

Commissioners present : Mr. WATSON, in the Chair;

Mr. Jose ph Cook, I Mr. Mauger,

.Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confi rmed. William Miller, iron ro lJ cr, fo rmerly employed at the Eskbank Ironworks, sworn and examined . The Commission adjourned until to-morrow, at o'clock a.m.,· at Sydney.

(Sydney.)

WEDNESDAY, 8TH APRIL, 1903. Commissioners present : Mr. WATSON, in the Chair ;

Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins.

Mr. Hughes,

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. James Peter Franki, manager of Mor t's Dock and Eng·ineering Co. , Sydney, sworn and examined. Hector Lamond, President of the Political Labour League of New South Wales, sworn and examined.

Resolved (o n the motion of Mr. Mauger )-" That the Commission move the Department of External Affairs to endeavour to obtain from Canada, J apan, and Russia all the information possible regarding t he iron industry in those countries.'' The Commission adjourned.

THURSDAY, 9TH APRIL, 1903 . Commissioners present : Mr. WATSON , in the Chair;

Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. John Harper, Chief Traffic Manager of the New South Wales Government Railways, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned until called together by the Chairman.

(Brisbane.)

FRIDAY, 1sT MAY, 1903. Commissioners present : The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; Mr. L. E. Groom, [ Mr. Watkins.

R esolved (on the motion of il1r. L . E. Groom)-" That Mr. H. R. Pollard ac t as Secretary and Shorthand Writer to the Commiss ion during the sittings in Brisbane." Benjamin Dunstan, Acting Government Geologist, Queensland, sw orn and examined. Joseph Hargreaves, mining surveyor, Ipswich, sworn and examined .

William Bendley, Ipswich , sworn and examined. Wi lliam Fryar, inspector of mines, Queensland, sworn and examined. Sittings of the Commission at 1.30 o' clock p.m. suspenderl till 8 .. 30 o' clock p.m. , whfln sitt in gs esumed and-

Captain George Anderson Rich ards, metallurgical engineer, Mount Morgan, sworn and examined . The Commission adjourned until to-morrow, at nine o'clock a. m.

inst.,

XV

SATURDAY, 2ND MAY, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon. C. c.· KINGSTON, Chairman; Mr. L. E. Groom, I Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of t he previous meeting were read and confirmed. lionel Clive Ball, Assistant. Government Geo logist, Brisbane, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned.

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Hughes,

(Newcastle.)

TUESDAY, 5TH MAY, HJO:l .

Commissionen present : Hight Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman;

Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.

1421

R esolved (on the motion of Mr. Watkins)- " That the Commiss ion adjourn unti l Thursday, the 7th at Sydney, and that a meeting be held at NevYcas tle later on." The Commission adjourned.

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Fuller,

(Sydney.)

THURSDAY, 7TH MAY, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; Mr. Watkins, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Mr . Watson reported that, as Ac ting Chairman, he had written to the Minister for Mines, New South Wales, req uesting that an officer of his Department be instructed to inspect and report upon the recently-reported deposit of iron ore near Piper's Flat. The Minister had acknowledged t he letter and promised to consider the request .

Archibald Forsyth, rope manufacturer, Sydney, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned.

Mr . Fuller, Mr. Watkins,

(Newcastle.) SATURDAY, 1GTH MAY, H!O:l.

Commissioners present : · Mr. Watson.

In the absence of the Chairman, Mr. Watson was callecl to the Chair pro tem . Robert Morison (Morison and Bearby, engineers, ironfounders, and boilermakers, Newcastle), sworn and examined. James Stewart Rodgers, retired engineer and ironfounder, Newcastle, sworn and examined.

TlH' Commission acl j ourned.

(Melbourne. ) THURSDAY, 28TH MAY, l!JOJ.

Commissioners ]Jresent : The Right Hon . C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; The Right Hon. Sir Edward Braddon, Mr . KinYan,

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Mauger,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, The Hon. J. W. McCay,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins,

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the two previous meetings \l'ere rea d and confirmed. The Commission deliberated. The Commissio n decided to print as an Appendix a map, appearing in the Queensland Government Mining Jow·nal of tl1e 15th May, 1903, showing "Some of Qu eensland's Iron, Coal, and Lim estone Resources "-the same block to be used.

The Commission adjourned until Monday next, l st June, at eleven o'clock a.m.

•

•

XVI

MONDAY, 1sT JUNE, 1903. Commissioners present : The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; The Right Hon. Sir Edward Braddon, 1 Mr. Kirwan,

The Hou. S. Winter Cooke, I Mr. Mauger.

Mr. L. E. Groom, I

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Herbert Frederick Cyril Keats, broker, Melbourne, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned until Wednesday next , at eleven o'clock a.m.

WEDNESDAY, 3RD JUNE, 1V00. Commissioners present : The Right. Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman. Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Kirwa:...t,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Mauge1

Mr. Fuller, I Mr. Watkin.:;.

Mr. L. E. Groom, 1

The minutes of the previous mee ting were read and confirmed. Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Kirwan)-" That the Chairman be requested to take any necessary action to procure t he opinion of the Honorable the Attorney-General as to the powers, if any, of the Commonwealth to establish iron works."

John Thompson (Thompson and Co., engineers, Castlemaine), sworn and examined. Richard Greenwood Middleton, manager, Phcenix Foundry Co . Ltd., Ballarat, sworn and examined. Joseph Vaughan, ironmaster, Lion Rolling Mills, South Melbourne, sworn and examined.

The Commission adjourned.

THURSDAY, llTH JUNE, 1903. Commissioners present : The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; The Right Hon. Sir Edward Braddon, Mr. Kirwan,

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Mauger,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, The Hon. J. "\\ \1cCay,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watson.

Mr. Watson was called to the Chair pro tem. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Chairman took the Chair. William Wright, engineer, Melbourne, sworn and examined. William Campbell, engineer, South Melbourne, sworn and examined. William Robertson, consulting engineer, Melbourne, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned.

(Sydney.)

MONDAY, 15TH J UNE, 1903. Commissioners present :

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watson.

Mr. Watkins,

Mr. Watson was called to the Chair pro tem. James Taylor, consulting engineer, chemist, and metallurgist, Sydney, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned.

(Melbourne.)

THURSDAY, 2ND JULY, 1903. Commissioners present : The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman ; Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Mauger,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, The Hon. J. W. McCay,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins,

L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson.

Mr. Kirwan,

'fhe minutes of the two previous meetings were read and confirmed. James Ford Pearson, engineer (works manager, Martin and Co., Gawlcr, South Australia), sworn and examined. The Commission deliberated.

Resolved (on the motion of MT . M cCay) - " That the evidence be closed." The Commission considered a letter from the manager, Eskbank Iron Wo rks (W. Sandford, Limited) . Resolved (on the motion of MT . Mauger) - " That Mr. Sandford can only be informed that the Commis-sion has concluded t aking evidence, and will shortly proceed to consider its report, which, when adopted,

will be forwarded to the Governor-General in the usual way." The Commission adjourned. L_

xvn

WEDNESDAY, 2ND SEPTEMBER, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon.

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. L. E. Groom,

c. c.

I

I

KINGSTON, Chairman;

Mr. Mauger.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.

1423

Resolred (on the motion of Mr. L. E. Groom)-" That evidence be taken on matters in the Bill not a lready dealt with." Charles Frederick Courtney, general manager, Sulphide Corporation Co., Ltd., swom and €Xa mined. ·

Frank Butler, Melbourne manager, Lysaght Bros. Ltd., wire netting manufacturers, sworn .and examined. Attorney-General's opinion as to the powers of the Commonwealth to establish ironworks ; and L etter from t he Acme Bolt and Nut Proprietary Co . Ltd., respecting the iron bonus question­

Ordered to b e printed as appendices. The Commission adjourned.

THURSDAY, 3RD SEPTEMBER, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon.

Mr . Joseph Cook, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Kirwan,

C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; The Hon. J . W. McCay, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of t he previous meeting were read and confirmed, Hugh Victor McKay, machinery manufacturer, Ballarat, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned until Thursday next , at eleven o'clock a.m.

THURSDAY, 10TH SEPTEMBER, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon.

Mr. Fuller, Mr. L. E . Groom, Mr. Kirwan,

c. c.

I

KINGSTON, Chairman; Mr. Watkins, Mr. Watson.

: !

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. . .

R eturn of Iron Imports for 1902, prepared by the Customs Department, laid before the Comm1sswn. Walter Stinton, manager, Railway Workshops, Newport, sworn and examined. William Monteath (C. Monteath and Sons, South M:elbourne), sworn and examined. . Thomas Hale W oodro:ffe, Chief Mechanical Engineer, Railway Department, sworn and Robert Shand, representing Mephan Ferguson, engineer, Melb ourne, sworn and exammed.

A suggested Draft Report was laid b efore the Commission by the Chairman. The Commission adjourned until Thursday next, at half-past ten o'clock a.m.

THURSDAY, 17TH SEPTEMBER, Hl03.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon. C. C.

Mr. Joseph Cook, The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Fuller, Mr. L . E . Groom, Mr. Hughes,

KINGSTON, Chairman ; Mr. K irwan, Mr. :Mauger, Mr. Watkins, Mr . Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The suggested Draft Report was considered and amendments suggested. The Commission adjourned until Thursday next, the 24th inst., at half-past ten o'clocka.m· F. l 050l. b

xvm

THURSDAY, 24TH SEPTEMBER, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon. C. C; ;KINGSTON, Chairman; The Right Hon. Sir Edward Braddon, Mr. Mauger,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, The Hon. J. W. McCay,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins,

M:r. L . E . Groom, Mr. Watson.

Mr. Kirwan, The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Return of Iron Imports, 1898-1902, prepared by the Customs Department, laid before the Commission, and ordered to be printed.

The suggested Draft Report was further considered. On the following division as to the recommendation of a bonus-AYES. NoEs.

Sir Edward Braddon, Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Kingston, M:r. Mauger, Mr. McCay, Mr. Watkins.

Mr. Winter Cooke, Mr. F-uller, Mr. Kirwan, Mr. Watson.

And Mr. Joseph Cook and Mr. Hughes being against a bonus, making the Commissioners equally divided, the Chairman gave his decision in favour of a report recommending a bonus. It ·was resolved that the majority Report be prepared by the Chairman, and that a dissent be prepared by Messrs. Kirwan and Watson. ·

The Commission adjourned.

THURSDAY, 22ND OCTOBER, 1903. '

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman ; Mr. Kirwan, Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Joseph Cook, The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Fuller, Mr. L. E. Grool?-,

The Hon. J. W. McCay, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.

; !

The Chairman presented the majority Report, and Mr. Watson the minority Report. The Commission decided to print the Bill as an Appendix. Resolved (on the motion of Mr. FulleT)-" That a hearty vote of thanks be passed to_ the Chairman for the time and attention he had devoted to the work of the Commission."

Resolved (on the motion of Mr. L. E . GToom)-" That this Commission expresses its appreciation of the work done by Mr. J. R. McGregor as Resolved (on the motion of Mr. L . E . G?"Oom)-" That a vote of thanks be passed to those officers of the Commonwealth and State services who have rendered assistance to the Commission."

The Commission adjourned.

XIX

LIST OF WITNESSES.

EXAMI NED BEFORE T HE SEL.ECT COMMITTEE.

P ittman, Edward Fisher Jaquet, John Blackley Matthews, W illiam Henry Twelvetrees, ' Villiam Harper ...

J amieson, W illiam

E XAMI NED BEFORE THE ROYAL COMMISSION._

Brown, H enry Yorke Lyell Jamie on, ' Villi nm Sa ndford, William Herma n, Hyman

Thornley, William Bladon, H erbert Miller, William Franki, James Peter ... Lamond, H ector H a rper, John

Dunstan, Benj amin Hargreaves, Joseph Bendley, William Fryar, William Richards, Captain George Anderson Ball, Lionel Clive

Forsyth, Archibald .. . ::Yiorison, Robert

Rodgers, James Stewart Keats, Herbert Frederick Cyril Thompson, John Middleton , Richard Greenwood

Vaughan, J oseph Wright, William Campbell, W illiam Robertson, W iJJi,tm A.

Taylor, J ames Pearson, J ames Fm·d Courtney, Charles F rederick Butler, Frank McKay, Hugh Victor

Stinton, ' Valter Monteath, ' Villiam .. . ' Voodroffe, T homas Hale Shand, Robert

APPENDICES.

Appendix A.- The Iron Deposits of ' Vestern Australia B.-I ron Ores in Queensland C.- Queensland Iron, Coal, and Limestone Reso urces-Map Showing D.-Acme Bolt and Nut Co. Ltd ., Correspondence from

E .-Attorney-General's Opinion r e Establishment of Iron 'Vorks F.- Spelter (Memorandum to E vidence of C. F . Courtney) G.-Imports of Iron and Steel a nd Machinery, 1898 to 1902 H .-The Bill

1425

P AG R

l - 6

6- 23 24- 27

27- 31, 32 32- 41

42-46 46-52• 52- 59 60-1

61 - 66, 68- 9· 66- 68 69- 71 71 - 76 76- 81 81 -84 85- 88 88- 90

90- 1 91 - 93: 93-101 101-4·

104- 9 109- 112' 112- 14 114- 19·

11 9-l 21t 123-126 127 128- 136; 136- 137 137-140· 140-145· 145-154 155-158 159-161 161 - 165 165- 167 167-169 169-171 171-173:

PAG»

174 177 181 183 184 185 188 193

1427

1\ii N U r_r ]-jj S EVIDENCE.

TAKEN BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE.

(Taken at Sydney.)

TUESDAY, 16TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Mr. Watson, Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Fuller,

Members present:

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Hughes, Mr. Watkins.

Mr. Vvatson was called to the Chair pro tem .

Edward Fisher Pittman, A .R.S.M., Under-Secretary for Mines and Agriculture, and Government Geologist, New South Vvales, examined. 1. By Jlh. Watson.- I pres um e you know the object of t.he inquiry, Mr. Pittman. The idea is to get from yourself and such others as are available as much information as possible wit h respect to the occurrence of iron deposits in New South 'Wales, and their relation to fluxes and coal, and detail s of

that description ; and also whethe1· have any mformation as to how the deposits are held at

the present time- whether they are in the hands of the Crown, or under lease to individunJs, or on alienated land, or anythiEg of that cannot gi...-e you much detailed information on that last item. Of course I can get it without much trouble. Although I know that some of the land is aliena ted, I could not tell you how much without referring to the plans of the Department.

2. Well, can you give the committee an idea of the general occurrence of the deposits you kindly put the question a little more definitely ? 3. Could you state where the iron deposits occur in sufficiently large quantity t o be of commercial Well, thfl two largest deposits are those of the Cadiangullong Creek, about 12 miles from

Orange, and what are called the Carcoar deposits, about 2t miles from Carcoar. Those are the two largest deposits that we know of. Then t here are a number of smaller deposits, some of which are no doubt of considerable valu e, in the Wallerawang district, ·and there are other deposits, also to some extent valuable, on the southern line in the vicinity of t he Go ulburn district generally, extending as far

down as Picton. These are the most important deposits that one can mention. There are large deposits also on the northern coast, but inasmuch as they contain a considerable proportion of titanic acid, their value for iron smelting purposes is not very great at present. 4. By llfr-. Joseph Cook . .....:..... Where is this the Williams River and the K aruah River, in

the Port Stephens district. 5. What is popularly known as the P ort Stephens deposit?- Y es . 6. By M1·. Watson.- With regard to the t wo largest, Carcoar and Cadi:1., ·whi ch are the nearest coal measures to those deposits '1--The nearest would be at Lithgow ..

7. And fluxing material is handy, I understand 7-It is handy also to the coal mines, that is to say, at Piper's Flat and round in that district . . 8. Could you give an approximate estimate of the quantities in sight at Carcoar and Cadia 1-\Vell, I have not personally measured those myself, but Mr. Jaquet, on the Geological Survey staff, has, and the are all given both in this book of his (" The Iron Ore Deposits of New South ·wales," by

J. B. J aquet, A.R.S.M., F.G.S., Memoirs of t he Geological Survey of N ew South vVales- Geology, No. 2), and there is a summary of them in t he book that I wrot e on the Mineral llesources of N ew South Wales. 9. We want to have the figures repeated in the evidence in co ncise form-you co uld read any-thing from the report t hat you think wo uld be of value. . .

10. By Jl£1·. L . E . Groom. - ! think you said you had it in your own book ?-Y es, but It IS a repetition of this. Mr. J aquet 's report was submitted to me in the first instance, an d I thmk m Mr . J aquet's book, which was published subsequently to mine, there are two lOA. The estimated quant ity of the ore in the Carcoar deposit IS 2,511 ,000 tons m

Pardon me, that was a preliminary estimate; and t he total, when subsequ ntly amend ed, was 3,168,000 tons. 11. By .tfr. Watson .- On page 156 of Mr. J aquet's Mr. Pittman, is _ a summary

given of the districts, description of ore, and the es timated of ?re m Yes.

12. Perhaps, if you were just to give us that., we co uld get It m t he evidence m that form. It is rather complete there '1--

Breadalb!me Cadi a

Dist rict.

Carcoar ... .. . ...

Chalybeate Spring-Deposits of Southern Di strict

F.l0501.

Description of Ore.

Brown ore and Specular hte matite, magnetite, and carbonate ore H

B

Estim<>ted Ui11 immn Qua.ntity of Ore in Tons.

700,000 39,000,00 0 3,000,000 1,510,000

E. F. Pittman, 16th September, H)02. 2

13. By Jlfr. J oseph Cooh;.- Where are they 7- Those are ores in the dist rict about Mittagong.

Cowra r Broula) Goulhurn Gn lgong ... ...

Dbtrict.

Mandur·ama iLnd W'oodstock ... . Marulan Mud gee

Magnetic ore Brown ore .. .

Magnetic ore

Description of Ore.

Brownore .. .

Brown ore and h rn ma tite Brown ore, with manganese

E,;timated 1linimum Qu an tity of Ore in Tons.

J 00,000 1,022,000 120,000 609,000

40,000 150,000

14. \Vhat do you mean by Mudgee 1 [Th e witne,

\Vhat does t hat include 7-That is in the Mudgee district.-

Queanbeyan (Paddy's Point). Rylstone and Cudgegong ' Vallerawang and P ipe t· 's Flat .. .

W illinms a nd Kaurah Ri,·er .. .

Wingello ...

Brown ore a nd magnetic ore Magnetic ore Brown ore .. .

Brown ore .. .

Titaniferous magnetic ore A luminous ore

15 . B y .Jh. Wat;; on-A total of 59,000,000 7-A total of 59,317,000 t ons.

150,000 1,000,000 443,000 200,000 1,973,000 3,000,000

59,317,000

16. JJy JVh. Joseph Cook. - That is in the State altogether?-Yes. That is only approximate. It cannot be regarded as anything more. A nd then , of cnurse, it is necessary t o state that all t hese ores are not by any means of equal quality. For instance, M r. Jaquet's samples were analy2ed in the Departmen t, and those from Carcoar were found to contain a notable proportion of phosphorus, whereas those from- -

17. "\Vhich is fatal to steel-making 1-\Veil, it is fatal to Bessemer steel making, provided i t is over a certain proportion, i.hat is to say, a proportion of O·OG per cent. in the ore. And then he found that the orcs from C1diangullong Creek, or what are termed t he Cadia deposi ts, contained a certain amount of copper and a ce r tain amount vf su lphur; but, as he points out, it is impossible to estimate the percentage of su lphur copper in t-he bulk of the d eposit, bec:a use no exploratory ·work has been done, n,nd it is very possible that large boulders of iron ore, tha t appear on the surface to be pure, may contain in t heir centres some percentage of sulphur. For instance, there may be a kernel of pyrites undecom­ posed. Those are cases that req uire investigation before they are regarded as certainties .

18. By .. lfr. Wcttson.- The larges t deposit seems to be at Cadia 1-That is so. 19. Has there bee n any attempt to open that up at all for any purpose?-Y es. It was opened up for copper mining. There was a considerable excavation made there in connexion with copper working. It has never, I fancy, been a payable copper min e. Then, over and above that fact, you must r emember t hat the oxidize d ores which Mr. Jaquet describes in detail are very mu ch ·purer t han the low0r deposits which hn,ve been worked for copper. In the upper portions the ore has been oxidized, and the probabilities are that the copper has been leached out by the rain. He es timates that there are

1,000,000 tons of this pure oxidized ore, which would probably be suitable for Bessemer steel manu­ facture. 20. Then at Carcoa r, whre there is a large deposit, they have been opening that up for fluxing purposes 7-Y es.

21. Has t here been suffi cient prOSfecting done to give any accurate idea of the quantity avail­ able 7- Yes ; very much more so than in the case of the Cadia deposit. There is a shaft down 100 feet and a drive which J\ir. Jaquet figures in his memoir, and t he character of the ore I under stand from him has not varied to any extent; t hat is, it is just as good at 100 feet depth as it was at the

surface. 22. By lrfr. Joseph Coolc. - I s the ore continuous through the whole of that depth ?-Well, of course, that has not been abwlu tely proved, so fa r as I know, yet. Mr. J aquet would be able to tell you more about t hat than I can, but I should say from his plans and sections it has not been by any means proved yet.

23. By ilfr·. Watson.-Then at Mittagong, again, a ttempts have been made to work the ore in the past ?- Yes; the Mittagong ore in the past has yielded extremely good pig-iron. I have evidence of that from a numler of people who a re interested in it. There is some of it at the present day forming portion of Vickery's ChamberB. 'Ir. e girders which support t he upper stories have been run direct from the furnace. That iron therefore may be regarded as very goo d-som e of it at any rate- but it is evident that those works at Mittag\-ng could never have been profitable for any length of time, because we know now, from prospecting op erations which the Department undertook on my recommendation, that there is not the amount of ore there to have lasted for any time. The deposit was desc ribed by Mr. ·wilkinson as having an average thickness or depth of 25 feet, but we find by actual diamond-drill borings that it is nothing like that. The deepest part was only 19 feet or 19 feet some inches, and in other places it is nothing like that n,t all.

24. It was not suitable fo r getting out large iron masses 7-No. If the Fitz roy Company had not fail ed by reason of the price of labour and fl ux it would ultimately have failed for want of ore. 25 . And then they had some difficulty with their coa.l too7 - Yes. They had to bring their coal from the southern coll ieries an d Lithgow, and it was costing t hem £ 1 or over a ton.

26. lJy J{r. J o.,rp h Cook- There i · coal up there 1- Y es. They subsequ ently foun d coal in a bore, whicl1 gives a very fair ana lysis, at a depth of 600 a,nd some feet. 27 . By 3fT. F ulle'I'.-Have you tested theE e other deposits in the same manner as you tested the Mittagong one 1- \ Yo had w me prospecting work carried out at the deposits near Piper 's Flat, and there, also, it resu lted in show in g that the deposits were not nearly so gren,t as t hey had been described.

S. Did you t est the Carcoar deposit in that way ?--

3

1429

E. F Pittman, 16th September, 1902.

29. l3y M1-. Watson.-! understood you to say that at Carcoar they put a shaft down 100 feet and drove a distance?-Yes; that was done by the Prospecting Board. 30. By .J!JT. J oseph Coole.-You mention 200,000 tons at Waller awang and P iper's Flat. I s that the estimate for the total deposit there 7-Y es. I may mention that in connexion with those P iper

Flat deposits, I inspected them first . I'Ve ha d a very big estimate in the Department, given, I think, by my predecessor, Mr. Wilkinson, and by Professor Liversidge-either one or both, I am not clear which-but wh en we put down these prospecting shafts and drives we found that, imtead of being all iron or e, as it was assumed, it consisted mainly of garnet rock, with certain bunches of iron ore in the

rock; and it is clear that originally it was supposed that all this garnet rock was iron ore. W ell, it cannot be classed a;; iron ore. It contains iron, b ut it is not ir on ore suitable for smelting purposes. So that very materially reduced the estimated amount of ore. 3 1. 'rhose are t he two shafts that were put there in my time 7-Yes.

32. What depth would those shafts go?-One was stopped at about 30 feet or 40 feet, and the other went do,vn l 00 feet certain, perhaps 15,) feet. There was a bunch of brown brematite occurring on the surface. W e put down the shaft, thinking to intercept the ore on the dip ; but we did not

intercept it, so we put in drives, and in every case we found we were below the deposit, which was clearly a bunch. 33. The whole deposit was t est ed thoroughly?- I cannot say that; but the test was sufficient to show that the iron ore occurred in bunches- it wil.s not a lode going down to a depth, but simply a bunch. W e did not test the bunch with a drive to ascertain its dimensions.

34. By 1111-. Fuller.-Is not that a characteristic of the Carcoar deposit as well?-There has not been sufficient work to prove that. According to Mr. J aquet's geological survey, it look s more like as if it occur red in beds there, and, therefore, one wo uld estimate that they were more continuous than the Piper's Flat deposits. There is a sketch section in Mr. J aquet's book showing the occurrence of those

beds at Carcoar. 35. By M1· . Watson.- Under the h eading of Goulburn district, there is a large deposit of brown ore mentioned- 1,022,000 tons. Would that have to depend for coal upon :Mittagong, or somewhere near there 7-Mitt

36. Do you remember particularly where the deposits occur near Goulburn, or are they scattered 1 -They are more or less scattered. 37. In small quantities, of which you give the aggregate ?-Yes; that Goulburn quantity is made up of several deposits.

38. By M1· . Fuller.-What is the reason that the iron deposit in the North Coast district which you refer to iii not of marketable value ?-The presence of titanic acid appears to make the ore very intractable. It is extremely difficult to smelt. There has been a number of patents taken out at different times for th e t reatment of ores containing t itanic acid, but none of them has been a success commercially. In t he meantime t he fact remains that any ore containing over a certain percentage of

titanic acid is extremely difficult to smelt. 39. Does that apply to any of these other deposits ?-The bauxite deposits would contain t itanic acid. 40. By M1· Watson.--That only occurs at Wingello ?-Yes; there are several other

places. 41. But not, I mean, in large quantities 7-No, not where it would be useful for iron

smelting. 42. There is another large deposit indicated at Queanbeyan ?-That was considered outside the range of practical iron smelting on account of its distance from coal deposits. 43. What distance would it be, assuming a suitable seam wer e found at Mittagong ?- What distance would it be .from Queanbeyan, roughly 1-Queanbeyan is 60 miles from Goulburn, and Goulburn

is 57 miles from Mittagong. 44. I s that magnetic iron at Queanbeyan suitable for smelting 1-Y es; as f1U· as Mr. J aquet's investigations show, there is only a trace of titanic acid in the Queanbeyan deposit. 45. Then a t Wingello there is this aluminous ore-3,000,000 tons. How would you describe

that 'I-That is more properly an ore of aluminium. It runs in places into an iron ore, but it will be more valuable in the future for the production of aluminium. 46. You would leave it out of the question for the present for iron prnduction ?-I think so; yes.

47. By Mr. Fuller.-We have heard a good deal from time to time with regard to t he iron deposits on the South Coast of New South Wales, -that is, from Bulli downwa,rds. Are they of any extenM-No sir, n ot as far as our investigations show. There were so me reports written in the early days of the Depart­ ment of Mines, making out that there were very large and very rich deposits ; but there is no doubt

whatever, I think now, that those referred to a series of chocolate shales which are known to occur in the coal and which I do not think are at all suitable for iron smelting. I think those reports were

made on a wrong basis altogether. There are small deposits of bog-iron ore on the ranges on the South Coast, but as far as we know there are not any of great extent. 48. H ave you made any im·estigation into t hat?-Yes. M r . J aquet visited all places where they were known to exist, and I personally have seen some of them myself.

49. So that your opinion is that, as far as the South Coast is concerned, there is no iron ore there of any great exten t, or which would be of any marketable value ?-I won't go so far as to say that, but I think there is no doubt that the deposits of iron ore down the South Coast so far as we kn ow at present are not of sufficient quantity to warrant t he starting of an iron smelting in dustry down there.

50. What class of ore is it generally ?-The only ore I have seen down there is a bog-iron ore similar to that at Mittagong. 51. By Mr. Watson. - \Vhat is the distance from Queanbeyan to Mittagong?-117 miles; and the deposit is 16 miles from Queanbeyan. Of course a railway wo uld have to be built for t hat 16

miles.

E. 1', fi ttnmn, 16th September, 1002. 4

52. You probably know, Mr. Pittman, that U.c committee is inquiring into the possibility of a successful <;ommencement of a n Australi an iron industry . I would like to know what your opinion is as to t he prospect" of its success-your opinion based on your experience ?-In answering t his question, Mr. Chn.irman, 1 should like to point out that t he smelting of ores from other States (t hat is to say, States outside 1\ ew South \Vales) in this State, would depend upon the establishment of the works on the but ii iron ores were smelted in New So uth W ales itself from N ew South Wales ores the works

11·uuld probably be started at some such place as Lit hgo w, a considerable distance away from the coast.

Our inve;,tigat.i ons, 1 think, justify my l:> tating my belief that there should be all the elements of r. suc­ cessful iron smelting industry if wo rks were started in the neighbourhood of L ithgow. 53. B y .Jfr. L. E. (.h ·uom. - vVorking the or e in that neighbourhood ?- -Yes. When I say t hat, I do not wisl: t o put forward my opinion as to wpether it could be done at a profit or not. That is beyond my ken altogether. That is a subj ect which I have not investigated.

54. The rela tive cost 7-Y es . I cannot say wh ether pig iron could be produced locally at a profi t in compet ition with foreign produced pig iron. That I do not feel justified in expressing an opinion about; but , as far as regards the production of iron, we have all the occ urrences which are necessary to insure its success, leaving ou t of t he qu es tion altogether the cost of the process. Then for t he treatment of occurring in other States, smelting works might be established anywhere on our Southern Coast. I say preferably on our Southern Coast because of the coal there. 1'hat coal is more suitable for smelting than the coal from the northern collieries . A s regards the quality of the iron I may say t hat we have analyzed in the D epartment samples from the Blythe River, Tasmania, and there is no doubt that the samples we have seen are very good . There is an analysis in t his book by Mr. Twelvetrees. I am pretty sur e we made an ano,lysis, but I do not know wh ether it is in this book. A copy of it co uld be furnish ed to the committee if they desired it.

55. By .Afr. IVatson.-Of course, in the absence of inspection by yourself or your officers, you wo uld not know as to the body of ore 7-No, I could not say. .

56. By J1h. L . K G1·oom .- On page 154 of Mr. Jaquet's book there is a report with reference t o that. lVlr. vVard, the Go vernment A nalyst in Hobart, t reats the whole thin g in bulk, and he gives the maximum and minimum contents. That is of very little use, because it depeuds altogether upon how much of the maximum there is, and how much of t he minimum. That tends to mislead; but from what they say t here is no doubt it is a very enormous deposit.

57. Have you any idea of t he quantity yourself from the reports you have received from them officially 7-Mr. Twelvetrees estimates the qua,ntity :tt 17,291 ,000 tons of marketable ore. Mr. Ward gives the iron content s as varying from 46 to 68·7 per cent., the silica CQiltents from 1·6 to 34·2 per cent., and the phosphorus contents from 0·04 to 0·09 per cent.

58. And do I understand you to say t hat you have made an analysis in your Department" too 7-I am pretty certain we made an analysis of a sample, but of course we did not take that sample. 59. A nd do you bear out what he says there about its contents 7-H e gives such wide limits to its con tents.

60. 'l'ake his minimum. From the samples you is that minimum a fair test 7-I cannot

remember exactly, but I have got t he idea in my mind that our analysis showed it t o be a very good ore. 61. W hat would be t he :percentage for what you term a good me 7-I think Mr. J aq\let gives three statements- poor, good, and rich ?-Poor ores are classified as those containing from 20 to 40 :per cent. of iron, medium ores from 40 to 50 per cent., and rich ores from 50 to 70 per cent. Of oourse, as Mr. J aquet says, that is quite an arbitrary classification of his own.

G 2. By Jlfr. JV atson.- You seem to think, Mr. Pittman, that the propositions for iron smelting works r esolve themselves into Lithgow on t he one hand and t he South Coast Qn the other ?-Yes, I t hink so. Then there are supposed to be iron ores of very good quality indeed in New a,nd those

ores might be brought to the South Coast .works. 63. By M 1·. Joseph Cook.-Could they be got over here in commercial 9,uantities 1- I have never been to N ew Caledonia, but I am t old that t here are very good deposits indeed there. 64. B y J11r-. it a 'fact that, so far as that ore is concerned" there is such a large

quantity of nickel in it that it is more va.Juable for the nickel t han for the iron 'I-I was not aware of it. I remember talking to some of the Broken Hill people some time ago when thev were wan ting pure iron ore for smelting purposes, and Mr. Gregory Boat·d had some of t his New Ca,ledbnia ore brought to him with a cert ified analysiH, and that analysis shov,red it to be practically :pure peroxide of iron with practi­ cally no silica in it at all ; and I remember at the time he stated that it was impossible and that he did not believe it. He subsequently had a,n analysis made at his works a:qd confirmed the composition of it-it was nearly pure peroxide of iron.

65. By .Air. Joseph Cook.- I s there plenty of it 7-I have never been there and cannot say, but they stated there were consid erable quantities of it . 66 . By Jfr. Watson.-Taking Lithgow generally, I understand that if you have too grent a pro­ portion of silica in the iron ore and also too great a proportion in tlw coal,. it is e:Jepensive to flux, and you tmve to ge t a lot of other fluxing material to make it up 1-Yes.

67 . H ow do the Carcoar and Oadia iron deposits nnd the Liths,ow coal show in that respect?­ They woul d be all right so far as that is concerned. 68. Y ou do not think there is too great a proportion ?-No. 'l'he only trouble with the Carcoar and Cadia dep osits is that the Carcoar delJosits arc rather high in phosphorous,, and the Cadia deposits contain sulphur and copper, that is the unoxidized Cadia deposits.

G9. Still, if there a,re 1,000,000 tons in sight oxidi:..:ed, that will :pot matter for the present ?­ No; provided that lhat oxidized ore opens up, as M r. Jaquet thinks it may do . Of cou rse, may_ be that the oxidized ore, when opened up, may be fou,nd to contain copper ancl sulphur. H e I S relywg purely on surf

70. Have you followed the cxpm·ime nts macle latterly at Lith,go,\V with view of coking theu· coal fo r copper smelting?-I h a 1·e not been there very recently, but I exaJ;D ined tl1eir coke sorp.e eighteen months ago and took samples of it.

5

1431

E. F. Pit.tman, 16th September, 1902.

71. bo 'know now 'vhether they a1·e producing a coke that is suitable for smelting under­ stand they are. 1 understand their coke will stand a good furna.ce burden. Of course, it has not as much strength as the Southern coke. .

72 . B y ilfr. Joseph Cook.-·what about the no rthern coke 7--Thel'e is prolmbly" no coke in the wo rld that has the strength of the Bulli coke. In the year 1892 I tested n,ll the northern cokes, the impol'ted coke used at Broken Hill, and t he Bulli coke. The Bulli coke stood a of :1,000 to

the square inch, whereas t he imported cokes stood a press ure of something about 750 lbs., and the northern cokes a pressure I think of 1,300 to 2,400 lbs. The northem cokes, however, contain less ash than the southern, and since my examination of them in 1892 a company at \Vallsend has been manufacturing a coke from a mixture of Wallsencl and Bulli coal. This coke has a fairly low percentage of ash, and at the same time great st rength.

73. By TVatson .- And that is the standard of value for coke, its strength ?-That is one of the standards . The secretary of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company refused to use Australian cokes in his works because, he said, they contained too much ash and would not stand the of the ore in the furn ace. This was so me years ago when there was a deputation to t he Governmen t asking them to put a duty on imported coke so a,s to get the trade into the hands of the Australian coke makers. The

representation of this deputation were submitted to M r. Knox, and he said the duty should not be put on because the Australian cokes contained too •much a,sh, and becnuse they were too friable. I was instructed to inves tigate this, and I fou nd the coke they were using from \Vales and Germany contained decidedly h1ot·e ash tha n so me of the cokes made in New South 'Wales, and, as rcgard8 its friabil ity, the

Australian cokes were four times stronger th'Ln the coke they were using. 7 4. By Jh. Joseph Coo!c.- And yon say t he sou thern coke stands first '1- 'l'hat is for strength. Of course it has more n,sh. 75. By M1·. Ji'uller.-When you. speak of the Bulli coke I suppooe it applies genemlly to all those southern cokes 7-Yes. All the sou them cokes ar·e very strong indeed.

7 6. By Ah. Joseph Cook.-vVould that make them more suitable for blast fu rnace work 1-Y es. 77. By kh-. Yon say thnt in the event of the e!'ltablishment of works to treat the ores

from different States you 1 oul d choose the South Coast for preference as the site of those w01·ks; but in the event of the establishment of an iron industry fo r the purpose of working t he New South \Vales ores, only the 'vo rks should be at Lithgow. I would like to ask you wh ether the ores in th:tt district would of themselves produce a marketable iron 1-- Yes. There are som e very good ores round

there. The only objection is t hat they are not in such big quantities as t hose two localities I have specially mentioned, Cadia and Carcoar. 7 8. I include Caditt and CarcmH'. I am speaking of the W estern group 7-Yes. I should answer decidedly in the affi rmative.

79. By Mr. J oseph Cook.- What do you include in the South Coast ?-The llla warra district, where the coal is obtainable. 80. By .Afr. L. E. G1·oom.-It would not include l\Iittagong 1-No. 81. By Jlfr. J oseph Cook.- \Vould it include Parramatta River, where, as you it wa s

proposed to establish iron works1-Y es . That could be fairly included, because we shall be getting the South Coast coal here in Sydney. As already stated, however, there at the present time a coke being made from a mixture of \Vallsend and Bulli coals. This coke which is made at Wallscncl, near New­ castle, is of great strength, and a fairly low ash percentage-lower in fact than t he a\-era.ge Bulli coke. I should like, therefore, to qualify my pre,-ious evidence by including Newcastle in the coastal

dishicts which, in my opinion, are suitable for iron smelting. 82. By M1 ·. Fuller.--When you speak of the value of the Soutl:Jem coal for smelting purposes, have you made any test of the coal for that pa rticu lar purpose so uth of .Mount K embb, from there down to :Macquarie Y es. Some two or three years ago, when the Port K embla H tt rbor was being

considered by the Public ·w orks Committee, they requested Professor David and myself to sample all the coals t hat were shown in any working places south of Mount K embla, and we did so and t hem all analyted; and according t o our investigations the coal was not nearly so good to the south of Mount K embla. The ash was vei·y much higher.

83. Have you seen tbe report of that expert who was sent out from England on behalf of the Illawarra Harbor and Land Corporation-his report on that coctl for smelting purposes ?-I have not. I do not remember seeing that report. 84. By .Jb·. L. E. Groom.- Have you considered the iron deposits in other Sta,tes besides New

South ·w ales in any way officially ·

85. ' You have no knowledge of the deposits in Queensland 7-:No. 86. Or South Austl'alia 7-No. I have heard of course of the deposits at Iron Nob in Sout li Australia, and I have been told that they are enormous in quantity and high in fluality. .. 87 . It is of a good commercial quality I am told. I haYe never checked the analysis

at all.

88. What distance is the Iron Nob from water carriage ?-I un derstand about 30 miles; I do not know. 89. I s it connected by rail ?-Yes. 90. Could that ore be made usc of, supposing that a factory started on the coast here?-Yes.

91. So that the ore might be taken from New Caledonia, So ut h Australia, and Tasmania in the event of having coastal works 1-Yes. 92. H ave you· any idea of the quantity that is available in South Australia ?-No, I have not heard an estimate of it; but the manager of the Broken Hill Proprietary told me it was in enormous

quantities. · 93. By llir. Watlcins.-The west and south are the only two possible fi elfL in Xew South \Vales1 -The two most pract.icable, undoubtedly, that is to :-sa.1 or Bulli, Sydn ey or 94. Did you ever make any investigation into Port Stephen's deposits 7-Yes. Th e trouble

with them is the quantity 0f titaflic acid, which amounts roundly to between 8 per cent. and 10 per cent.

E. F. Pittman, 16th September, 1902. 6

95. By M1·. L. E. Groom.-Have you considered the cost of the production of iron in other countries and compared it with the probable cost of producing in Australia 1-Mr. J aquet has mentioned one or two instances in the book. I cannot say that I have gone into the figures to any extent myself. I should like to point out to t he committee that those estimates of Mr. J aquet's refer in t.he one case to

t he production of the best Bessemer steel, that is the Middles borough, and the other which he mentions at Lithgow would be the production of an inferior pig; that is to say, a pig not suitable for the production of Bessemer steel, so that the two are not on exactly the same lines. 96. By Mr. Watson.-Can you get us some particulars as to the tenure of the land upon which the deposits in New South W ales occur 'I-I will do so.

John Blockley Jaquet, A.R.S.M., F.G.S., geological surveyor, Geological Survey Branch, D epartment of Mines, New South Wales, examined. 97. By Mr. Joseph Cook.-I believe you made a report some time ago on the iron ores of New South ·wales is so.

98. About when 1-In 1901. 99. I suppose at that time your investigation was as reasonably complete as you could make it?­ That is so. 100. Has anything occurred since-I am speaking now more particularly with regard to the deposits-to increase or decrease the quantity of ore available for smelting purposes; that is to say, have any fresh discoveries been made 1-I do not know of any of importance. They have not been

brought under my notice. l 0 1. I notice in your r eport that you say the northern deposit, the \Villiams and Karuah River deposits, are uncommercial ?-I believe that is so. 102. And that, even if that were not so, t here is not a sufficient quantity there to justify the establishment of any large wor·ks ?-Well, in the aggregate they contain a considerable quantity of iron ;

bnt the beds are scattered all over the place, and are very narrow. 103. The estimate is nearly 2,000,000 tons 1-l t hink that embraces about 26 different deposits; and you see the ore there occurs in narrow beds, which dip into the ground in many instances at a steep angle, so that it would be, relatively speaking, very expensive work to mine t hem-that is to say, expensive for ii·on ore. Of course, if they were gold deposits it might pay to work them.

104. How steep is the dip 7-In some instances as steep as 80 degrees; mostly, I suppose, it is about 20 degrees, and in some instances as high as 85 degrees. I think I cited one instance of a bed as high as 85 degrees. 105. By M1·. Watkins.-What width are they?-The beds vary from 2 inches or 3 inches up to 3 feet in the widest part, but they are seldom 3 feet; moreover they are not permanent. They are pocketty. They will pinch out after being followed a little distance, and, perhaps, make again on the same horizon a little bit further on. The beds are not of a very permanent character.

106. By Jb·. Joseph Cook-But the fact of their being laid at an angle would not make them expensive to work?-You would have to mine for them; you could not quarry the ore. You would have to work it in the same way as you would work a gold reef. If it is only from 6 to 8 inches wide, a gold reef needs to be rich to be payable.

107. But where the seams are only 6 or 8 inches wide, are there not other seams close by '1-No. In a few instances there are parallel seams, but not close enough to work together. 108. And that fact alone would put them out of the category of commercial workings there are the so uthern deposits-included in the Southern district you put Queanbeyan, Goulburn, and l\'Iittagong 1-Might I just make a remark about the character of the Williams River iron. For ordinary purposes iron produced from these titaniferous ores would be valueless . In. the first place, it is difficult to run a furnace with a lo t of t itanic acid. An obstruction forms in the furnace. And the iron

produced is only useful for certain purposes. l 09. Does the titanic acid prevent the iron from separating easily ?-No, but there is a substance, supposed to be cyano-nitride of titanium, which forms in the furnace and renders it difficult to keep the furnace running.

llO. By _Mr. even if you did get it through the furnace the iron would not be of

good commercial quality ?-No. Ill. What is the deficiency ?-I deal with it somewhere in this book (b-on Ore D eposits o.f New South Wales), and give the opinion of an expert who has actually experimented with the smelting of titaniferous ores. Many years ago, a company, the Norwegian Titanic Iron Company, was formed for the purpose of smelting, without. mixture with other ores, ilmenite obtained from Norway. Ilmenite is the mineralogical term for titaniferous iron. It has the same meaning as titaniferous iron. Mr. W. M. Bowron. who was employed as chemist by the company, says, concerning their operation, as follows :­

"The process, regarded as a process, wa s a perfect success; but the enormous quant.ity of fuel requhed, the small quantity of iron in the ore, and the cost and uncertainty of importation, militated seriously against its comm ercial success, and a few years saw the attempt abandoned." After describing the process in detail, Mr. Bowron says:-" If then, the use of titaniferous ores involves extra fuel, low heats, and slow driving, and makes white iron, what is the inducement to use them? I can only answer that for ordinary use they are wholly unsuitable ; but for making a forge iron that has brought double the market price of common iron, for use as a mixture to impart the property of cold toughness to other iron, or for making an iron to be mixed with other irons that are· not quite up to requirements for boiler plates, for blooms, or for an extra good iron generally, these ores are most valuable." Pig iron manufac­ tured from titaniferous ores hat; certain uses, but there would be no use manufacturing a large quantity of titaniferous pig, unless you had other large iron works which produced large quantities of normal pig iron.

112. By Afr. Jo seph Co ok.-lt might pay to extr·act these ores and convey them to where other iron was being made, for particular uses ?-Well, I do not think there has been any large qu:mtity made anywher·e. I know for a fact that in the United States they are not working the titartif'l•:ous iron deposits, and the same applies to Sweden and Norway. ,L" ,

11 3. Then you would put that out of 7-Y es.

J. B. J aq uet, 16th Septembe r, 1902.

11 4. By Mr . Watkins.-Do t hose remar ks govern t he whole of the P ort Stephens district 7-The only iron ores in t he Port Stephens district wit h which I am are the beds of tita.niferous ore

under disc ussion. '

11 5. On t he ri ve r 7- They are on t h e left-lmnd side of the North Coast-road, between Raymond Terrace n,nd Stroud , and between there a nd th e vVi lliams River, in the water-sheds of t h e Karuah and W illiams Rivers. 11 6. By 1l!?-. Fulle1 ·. - Do I under stand you to say that you put th ose out of the question 7-Yes; b ut I have to be careful what I say. That is why I quote t he particulars giYe!1 . For

cer tam they may be used, but for general p urposes I do not think they wou ld be of much use.

I n to come, when we have an iron industry cstabli::.l1ed here, it might be useful to have this ore for cer t..1.m purposes. . 117. In regard t o all t hese dep<:Jsits, have you made the same careful tests as to the quant.ity in srgh t that you have made wi th regard to lYiittagong ?-I caniwt eYery one. I wo ul d have to speak for t hem one at a ti me. If you are referring to t hose Port Stephens deposits, I made a very careful test.

1 had t renches sunk across them, and J bad shafts put dow n in places; and you will see in t his book a map that I. prepared showing their positions. I tel:\ ted them very carefully, and I feel very positive that t here is no mo re ore t here than is stated in t his repm·t, viz., 1, 97 3, 000 tons. 11 . By J1tf1- . Jo seph Cook.-Do you incl ude Queanbcyan, Goulburn, l\iittagong, and vVingell o as in the Southern dist rict 7-W hen I made that list out for you I did it with a view of grouping them

under t heir different coal-fields. If th se orcs are to be smelted, they should be in the southern

coal-fields ; if t he l\'Iittagong coal should prove suitable, t hey shoul d be smelted there; b ut failing t his they would have to go to t he South Coast ( lllawarra) district. 119. At Queanbeyan t here are 1,000,000 tons. h thn,t deposit of any present commercial valu \0) ?-The ore is very good, but it is far away from coal.

120. That is what my question includes . I s it of any commercial Ya.l ue at present? I btke it that it would have to be taken to the Sout h Coast to .smelt in the absenee of the development of the Mittagong coal mines 7-It is rather a big question for me to say absolutely that it is not of any commercial val ue. I should no t like to say t hat.

121. H ow far is it off t he coal 7-I suppose i t is about 20 miles f rom Queanbeyan. 122. By Mr. Watson.- That makes it 137 mil es from Mittagong7-Y es . Well, t hat does not prer.l ude it from being of value. I can best answer t he question by telling you what t hey are doing in the States. At the present time t he L ake Superior ore is being brought in the train, after being mined, from 100 to 200 miles to the lakes, and then it is shipped long distances down the lakes. It is again put into t he train and carried something like 90 miles to the smelting works. Altogether,

on the average, it travels a distance of about 800 miles from the mines t o the smelters. For merly only t hose ores were worked for iron that were adj acent to flux and coal, but now t hat has all been

revolu tionized, and t he greater portion of t he world's iron supply is produced from deposits which are situated many hundreds of miles away from t he coal. A nother instance is t he Spanish ore, from Bilbao. It is mined in Spain, transpo rted t o t he port--I do not know what dif>tance t hat woul d be, but I think the mines are mos tly close to the port-then it is carried in stearn -shi ps t o Yorkshire and

Scotland, a distance, I suppose, of about 1,000 miles. 123 . By leb· . J o;;eph Cook.-Of course the quality of t he iron would determine whether it was worth while to carry it so f

Pennsylvania; t he ores f r-om Biscaya, in Spain, 1, 000 miles to Middlesbrough, Glasgow, &c.; and the Swedish ores, from 1,000 to 1,500 mil es to t he furnaces in Germany and England. ] 25 . By Mr. Joseph Cook. - The deposit in Que anbeyan, you say, is a, good one '-- Yes, as far as my examination went, certainly.

126 . Woul d you call that a good one according to the table that you have laid down?--Yes. I wou ld like t o look up the analysis before I answer definitely. It is situated l miles west from Quean­ beyan. It is a large deposit of magnetic ore, the outcrop of which is :20 chains long and 5 chains wid e. That is about a quarter of a mile. The ore consists essentiall y of magnetite with v::trying amounts of h or nblende, and the greater portion of it is of excellent quality. vVell, in one place t here is a sm all

admixture of copper pyrites, b u t I did not observe the copper ttll through t.he deposit, nor do I think the great mass of t he ore has been deteriorated in any way by copper. I estimate t hat there n:re at least 1,000,000 tons of excellent magnetic ore in sigh t. T he sample I took at Queanbeyan contamed 64 per cent. of metallic iron. I am not prepared to state that the whole bulk of the ore will prove to be as good-the place had not been opened up-but still I am sure that the deposit as regards quaJity of ore is a vall,lable one. I am sure it is over 50 per cen t .

127. By ilfr-. L . E . G1·oorn.- Y ou woul d call that a rich ore 7- Then, you see, the phos­

phorus is particularly low, and that mak es t he ore valuable. 'l'hat is a very impor tant point. 128. By A-£1-. TVatson .-And the t itanic acid is low ?-It has practical ly no t itanic :wid. There is only a trace. J believe the ore is val uable, but I did n?t spend same time the deposit,

because it was so far away, and there appeared to be no rmmecltate h keiihoocl of rts bemg wo rked. 129. By Jl.b·. Jo seph Cook.--In view nf what you have just now told us as to tho g reat distances from which ore is transported in other countries do you not think there is a possibility of omebody working it and bringing it to the coast?-Yes, if a mil way should be built; but other deposits are more

conveniently situated. 130. By Jlfr. What other deposits are more conveniently situated 7-Carcoar and Caclia and the southern ores. 131. By ]1.[1 ·. Coolc.-Then you say there is a good deposit n,t Goulburo, 1,022,000 tons.

Is t hat all together-1-No. The figures quoted the aggregate amount of ore oontained in five or different deposits.

J. B. J aquet, 16th September, 1902, 8

13 2. Are they in the immediate vicinity of Goulburn 1-Yes. 133. How far from the railway 3 to 10 miles from the railway, but one of the largest

of them is within a mile of the railway. 134. And what is their qualit.y 1----They are brown iron ores. · I suppose they contain from 40 to 56 per cent. of metallic iron. 135. Is there any deleterious matter in them 1-Yes, from 6 to 25 per cent. of silica, and from ·19 to ·31 of phosphorus. That makes them very high in phosphorus. They are not suitable for steel­ making by the acid process. On the whole, in a general way, I should not class them as very good ores, having regard to tbe impurities in the ore and everything connected with it.

136. W hat is the quali ty of the Mittagong deposits, 1, 510,000 vary very much.

Some of the Spring deposits yield an excellent ore, and others an ore very high in phosphorus- an ore tltat would be suitable for the Basic process of steel manufacture; but I think there is very little chance of those deposits being worked, because the estimated quantity is divided among many deposits. 137. I see there are 3,000,000 tons at Yes; but that is an aluminous ore. They could

not very well smelt it by itself, but it might be a valuable ore to have to mix in wit h other ores when they are being smelted. It is very similar to t he Irish ores shipped from Ireland to E ngland and smelted with t he rich English h re matites. 138. Supposing the whole matter were put as a proposition for iron works in t he Southern district, taking the whole of the Southern district by itself, how would ·it appear t o W ell, there are really only two deposits of the first class there. There is the Queanbeyan deposit, which, for the reason I have stated-being so far off the rail way-is not likely to be worked; and there is another deposit, not included in the Gou lburn district, but not very far away-Breadalbane. That is a very fair deposit, but it yields an ore not suitable for steel-making by the cheaper acid processes, but steel could be manufac­ tured from it by the Basic process.

139. That throws you back to Queanbeyan and Goulburn as the two places on ly where good iron ore is Yes; but the Goulburn ore is not very good. The Breadalbane ore, on the whole, is

better than the Goulburn ore. 140. Those two deposits alone-Queanbeyan and Goulburn-only total two and a half million tons. Would you regard that as sufficient to justify putting down a modern plant for iron­

making purposes 'I--I should not like to say t hat. The largest American furnaces now run about 4,000 tons of pig iron a week, and that is a very big furnace. 141. That would be at least 8,000 tons of ore 1-Y es. You must take the supply wanted for Australia. I do not think we are at all likely to start with a furnace as big as t he Americans a re

using. · 14 2. By Mr. L. E. Groom.-That would not necessarily involve the size 1-There are plenty of places elsewhere in the world-in England, for instance-where they are smelting with furnaces which are nothing like as big. The Americans have lately gone in for very big furnaces.

143. By .Mr. Jo seph Cook.-You say this Goulburn deposit is not very good. So, t h.m, out of this quantity included in t he whole of t he Southern fields there are really only a million tons of good iron ore 1-I do not know how I am going to classify those ores for you exactly. It depends on the purpose for which you use them. The Go ulburn ore is not so good as the Carcoar ore, but it is very difficult to speak about these ores relatively.

144. You might keep in your mind the suitability of the ores for the manufacture of steel rails. 145. By M1· . Fuller. - Or speak of them as compared with ores which a re worked in other parts of the world 1-'l'hey are working oreR far worse in England. A large proportion of the local ore mined in England at t he present day-the Cleveland ore-is a very inferior ore, and an ore that yields a pig of very low price. 146. And much inferior to these ores 1-Now y.ou raise another question. The Cleveland ore is a self-fluxing ore. It has lime and alumina in it. The Cleveland ore can be mined and smelted cheaply, but the pig iron produced from it is impure and inferior. 147. By .Mr. Joseph Cook.-I will come back to that question after we have dealt with the Western ores. Will you give me a statement of the quantity of ore available in the Southern district and in the Western district 7-

148. By Mr. L. E. Groom.-Reading this report, I came to the conclusion that t he Northern deposits are not worth considering ?-That is so. There is no hope of obtaining any large supply in t he Port Stephens district . In the Southern district the total quantity of ore I estimated at about 6,000,000 tons at scattered places, but much of this ore, if you want me to generalize, is of an inferior character, and not suitable for smelting by itself. Included in the estimate are 3,000,000 tons of aluminous ore.

149. By j!fr. Fnller.-And what area is that Bcattered over7-Some of the deposits are over 50 miles away from one another-you see there are t he Spring deposits, at Mittagong and Picton, and upon the South Coast Spring. _

150. I want to get at t he distance between Queanbe:ran and the other deposits 1-From t he out­ side limit at Queanbeyan to the outside limit at Picton in a straight line is 120 miles as near as can be. 151. And how far does the district extend from east to west?-About 30 or 40 miles. 152. By Mr. Watkins.-Do you find any limestone in those is plenty at

Marulan. 153. Did you find any up not·th extensive deposit of good limestone within a reasonable distance of N ewcastle. 154. By jJfr. Fuller. - Would one branch line of railway to each of these places in the Southern district serve the deposits

155. By jJ£1-. Watkins. - But would not each company naturally have t hei r own lines laid '1---Yes, but t.h at is the trouble For instance, at Gou lburn you wo uld build a line out to one deposit with only 3,000 or 4,000 tons ; the mi nes wonld have short lives, since the great majority of the deposits, relatively speaking, contain only small quantities of ore.

156. By M1·. Fuller.-Do you know Joadja Creek ?-Yes.

9 J. B. J aquet, 16th September, 1902.

1435

157. Would it be more difficult to construct a line to Queanbeyan than it was to J oadja I am not a railway engineer, but I think it would be very difficult to get the line from Queanbeyan to the ore deposits at Paddy's River. It is very rough country fo r- a portion of the route. 158. By Jh-. Joseph Cook.-Now, about the western deposits. I understand t hat this Cadia deposit is a discovery of recent date '1-\ Vel ], I scarcely think that. 'l'hey did not know its value as an iron deposit.

159 . When you set out to make that inquiry did you know of this deposit at Cadia I did not. 160. That has been discovered t hen recently we may sn,y think this is the first time in this work that it has been referred to as an iron deposit . Of course the peo ple living in the district knew it was there, but they did not appear to know that it was valuable as an iron deposit.

161. By Jll1· . L. E. G1·oorn .- This was the first survey of it?-Yes, I believe so . 162. By Jlh. JusP.ph Cook.-Your estimate is 3,000,000 a minute. I estimate the

Cadia d epo to contain 39,000,000 tons. Stutchbury, I think, a former Government Geologist, briefly refers to it. I would like to correct my statement. R.eferring to one of the Cadia deposit.·, not the larger one, but the small er one, he first mention s it in 1851. He says-" There is an immense mass of oxydulous iron forming in one solid mass a precipitous waterfall of about 60 feet in height."

163. But nothing was known as to its value until you made that survey the best of my

knowledge, I think so. 164. 'l'hen, as to Cat·coar, you say there is a gl'eat deal of phosphorus in that ore?-There is not a great dettl, but there is an amount in excess of the Bes emer· limit . 165. Anything to interfere with its commercial value?-Y es . There is enough thel'e to damage it from a steel making point of view, though not to prohibit its use for gteel manufacture. ·

l 6G . But there is nothing in the Cadia deposit which would interfere with the making of good steel ?-Yes, thel'e is coppel' and sulphur. 167. But cou1d be treated, could they not ?-1 t is possible t hat they might get over the difficulty. It is a very complex ore, and I do not think any one could well give an opinion on that point

without making a lot of experiments. 168. You do not regard the Cadia ore t hen as too good an ore for steel making purposes ?-There is a lot of oxidized ore t hat is good. I estimate about 1,000,000 tons. 169 . Which, in your judgment, would be excellent material for making Yes.

170. And therefore would justify the undertaking which is proposed ?-I t hink so. Might I digress for a moment just to exphin about the iron and steel making. I think I could simplify mn,tter.; perhaps. If you get a very small quantity of phosphorus more or less it will make a very great difference to the value of the pig iron from a steel making point of view. If you get tt pig iron containing more than ·06 of phosphorus, it is generall y supposed to be unfit for making steel by the cheapest process of

steel manufacture-that is, the acid Bessemer process, ot· the acid open hearth process. Again, a pig iron which contains between ·06 and we will say 1·5 or 2 per cent. of phosphorus, and that, until quite recently, was one not well adapted for steel making. W hen you get over the 1·5 per cent. you get a pig iron that is suitable for the basic process, which is a much more expensive process·.

171. I s t here much steel being made by that process?-Yes ; in Germany a great deal of steel is being made by t he basic process. They are bound to do it because they have not got the non-phosphoric ore. 17 2. By Mr. Watson .-lt is not worthless, but it is a disadvantage ?-Yes. It is just a dis· advantage. Now we come to the Carcoar ore. That ore contains an amount of phosphorus in excess of the acid Bessemer limit-only just a little in excess.

173. By Jlfr. Joseph Cook-Have you any idea what the difference in cost is as between the two processes in the making of a ton of steel 'I-I could not give you any estimate. It would depend on so many circumstances-on the exact percentage of and so many different things. I can only

say it is more expensive. Carcoar is just a little bit over the percentage for the acid Bessemer process, but it does not contain enough for the basic process. The problem we have to consider is what could t hey do with the pig iron for steel manufacture. Recently there has been a new process introduced by Mr. Talbot, in America, by which it would be possible to produce steel hom these intermediate ores, so we have good reason to believe now t hat these intermediate ores are more valuable to-day than they

were two or three years ago. 17 4. Are they suitable for making steel ?-Yes. . .

175. Has Mr. Talbot in America demonstrated his process?-Yes. I have g1ven an account of 1t. 176. By .• '111-. Fttllm·.-How does the Talbot system compare with others in price ?-I have no estimates. There is a lon« account in the Iron and S teel Jou1·nal, and it is criticised by

manufacturers, iron -master;, and metallul'gists. From these criticisms, it would seem as if it was a so und process. Even supposing you did not use that process, there is another way of getting over the difficulty . Let me tell you the difference between the acid process and the basic process. ·when use the acid process you have no lining, or only an acid lining, to the converter; when use the baste

process you line the converter with lime, and that lime absorbs the phosphorus.from the tron . way of producing steel from t he Carcoar pig iron would be to turn the phosph1des produced back mto the converter, and so bring the pig iron up to the basic Bessemer standard as regards phosphorus. It all comes down to t his, that the Carcoar ore is not the best for steel manufacture, but yet you could

make steel-and good steel-out of it. 177. By Jh. Joseph Cook-By 1-Y that is one way of getting over diffi?ulty.

178. By Mr . Watson.- Then Cadta ?-There ts a large quanttty of ore there that ts smtable for the acid processes, which are t he cheapest processes. .

179. By Jl{r·. L. E. Gr·oom.-Are you speaking of whole depostt ?-:-No, only small er

portion-the oxidized ore. I never had the same opportumttes at Cadm of provmg the depos1t that I had at Carcoar. I SO. By Mr·. Joseph Cook-Supposing Carcoar and Caclia ores wore mixed, would t.hat bring the percentage of phosphorus below the maximum for the acid Bessemer process 1-I think it might be

possible to get such a mixture from the two.

J. B. Jaquet, 16th September, 1902. 10

181. Taking the fie ld altogether-the Cadia and Carcoar districts-would you regard it as a good one ?-I think there is a good prospect of successfully working the Carcoar and Cadia deposits; but, mind you, I do not think t hey a re t he best deposits in the world. They are not the very finest, but there should be a good prospect of working them profitably.

182. A good commercial prospect?-Yes. 183. You have included Mudgee in t his return. What do you mean? Do you mean the

Mudgee railway line or Mudgee town ?-There is only one deposit of importance near Muclgee, and t hat is at a place called Cooyal, about 14 miles out. I think it only contains about 200,000 tons of ore. It is an ore with manganese in it-nn ore that an iron smelter would like for certain purposes. 184. You might give us t he metallic contents of the ore at Cadia and Carcoad-- You must understand how I am situftted in trying to compare t hese things. I can tell you the percentage of iron and phosphorus, and so on, but there are so many things to take into consideration. The analysis made at the laboratory of the Department of Mines of Carcoar ore showed it to contain in round numbers from 52 to 63 per cent. of metallic iron. Well, I estimate that t-he ore contains on an average at least 53 per cent. of iron, not more t han l 0 per cent. of silica, and about ·09 per cent. of phosphorus. In arriving at this estimate, I had regard particularl y to the bulk samples taken in the cross-cut across the bed at a depth of 100 feet.

185. By .Jib-. Watson.-And now Cadia ?-The Cadia contains from 52 to 64 per cent . of metallic iron. The silica varies from 4 to 14 per cent. The Cn,dia is an ore low in phosphorus, and t hat is stwngly in its favour. One sample was very high in phosphorus, but I think we will discard that. In the oxidized ore the phosphorus varied from ·0 17 to ·0 51. The oxidized ore also contains appreciable quantit ies of copper and sulphur.

186. '!.'here is nothing in your judgment to make it difficult to treat the ore ?-The unoxidized ore might be diffic ul t to treat. I do not know that the presence of sulphur and copper would stop it being used, but it would be an objection. The oxidized ore would be free from difficulty as regards treatment.

187. Then there are 1, 000,000 tons in sight with which there would be no difficu lty ?-A million tons of oxidized ore, which i1> probably free from the deleterious ingredients, copper and sulphur, and which contains an amount of phosphorus within the acid Bessemer steel manufacturing limit. There would seem to be 1,000,000 tons of very valuable ore there.

188. Are there any deposits between l\1udgee and Rylstone 7-0ut at Cudgegong, back from the line, and between Rylstone and Cudgegong. -

189. Taking the Rylstone district in alliance with Wallerawang and Piper's Flat, what would you regard as the total deposit ?-643,000 tons. 190. There would be nothing by itself there then to warrant the establishment of iron works upon any competitive scale 7

191. By Mr. L . E. Groom.-That is, on that line and dealing with those places alone ?-No. It is not very much, certainly. I should think it would be scarcely great enough to warrant the establish­ ment of works. 192. By Jir. Joseph Cook.- You are aware that there have been propositions for tha t district alone 7--Yes ; but still there are plenty of places where they are working small furnaces on small supplies of ore. I should not like to say definitely that a man would not keep a furnace working on 600,000 tons.

193. That could be worked in conjunction with Cadia and Carcoar?- Yes . 194. You say there are only 200,000 tons at Wallerawang and Piper's F lat. W hat is the quality of the ore in that district ?-Speaking of that district, I say that as the ore bodies are irregular in Rhape, for t he most part hidden under alluvium or rubble, and liable to give place at all points to country, I am unable to give any reliable estim:tte as to their extent or t he quantity of ore contained in them. However, I am of opinion that they do not contain in the aggreg

195. Mr. Pittman told us there were 200,000 tons at Wallerawang and Piper's Flat, and you say 600,000 tons 7-But you see here I sta.te that the deposits do not contain in the aggregate more than 600,000 tons, and t hey probably contain considerably le1s. vVhen I summarized it, with the best of the information at my disposal, I split it up and put down 200,000 tons.

196. A fter testing the whole matter thoroughly, you were not greatly struck with t he district ·?-No. ·

(Taken at Sydney. )

WEDNESDAY, 17TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Fuller, Mr. L. E. Groom,

}.1 embers present :

I

Mr. ·watkins, Mr. Watson.

Mr. vV.atson was called to the chair, pro tem.

John Blocldey Jaquet, A .R.S.l\1., F .G.S., further examined. 197. By jJ£1· . L. E . Gro(lm.-This report, which you compiled, and which was published in 1901, I think you said yesterday you did not wish to modify. Do you still hold to t he conclusions that you arrived at in the summary?-Yes. I have no essential modifications to make.

198. You have no substantial modifications to make in that report 7-N o.

11 J. B. J aquet , 17th September, 1902.

1437

199. In the summary you practically divide t he iron deposits in New South ·wales into three Nort hern or P ort Stephens district, t he W estern, and the Sout hern district 7- Yes

I think they could be classifi ed like that. The ores would have t o go t o one of t he coal-fields. '

200. Y ou mentioned yesterday that you classifi ed t hem on t ha t basis rebtively to the coal-fields ? I did tha t yesterday for Mr. Cook on a sepa ra te piece of paper. 20 1. Co ul d you classify them- the iron deposits of N ew Sou th W ales-on the basis of the coal­ fields which would be utilized fo r t he purpose of manufacturing t he iron co uld do that. I do not know o very mu ch_ the coal. That is another qu est ion altogether. They might br:in g t he ores from the V.7 es t ern < h stn ct or from so mew here else, and smelt them on the sou th coast .

202 . Y ou do not think the deposits in the Northern dist rict a t Port Stephens are of any

commercial value at present ?-No ; I feel very positive on t hat point. 203. Y ou es timate the minimum quantity of ore in tons in N ew South \Vales at 59, 317,000 tons 1-Y es. 204. I s that really t he minimum limit yo u can safely m

20 5. As a mattM of fact, the deposits may be much larger, b ut you think t hat is the safest minimum for you t o adopt ?-Y es. Take, for instance, the es tima te in t he Carcoar deposit ; I feel absolutely cer tain there are 3,000,000 tons in sight, 1 u t I t hi nk it is extremely probable there are a lot more, perhaps 10, 000,000 or 15,000, 000, but I am perfectly certain there ate 3,00 0,000 there.

206 . Is tha t t he minimum that you regard as absolut ely safe for t he purpose of safe calculat ions - Y es.

20 7. How much of that 59,3 17 ,000 tons would be in the N orthern district ?-Onl y the 1,9 73, 000 tons mentioned under the district William s and K aruah rivers. 20 8. The W estern district, Cadia and Carcoar, would you include Rylstone in that ?-The W est em district would include Cadia, Ca rcoar, Cowra, Brou la, Gul gong, Mandurama, Woodst ock, 1\'Iud gee,

ewbridge, Blayney, Orange, Ryl tone, Cudgegong, Wa.l lerawang, and Piper's F lat. 209 . Now, co uld all t h ose deposit s which you have en umerated as in t he W est ern district be sent to the Lithgow ironworks. Are they all within reasonable dista nce, and could they all be manufactured into pi g at t he Lithgo w ironworks ?- Y es . Some are a lit tle far off, but I think it is

correct to say that t hey a re wit hin reasonable distance. 210. You state in your report that the Cadia mines are about 12 miles from t he "Western line, and that could be connect ed by rail ?- Y es. It is about 10 or 12 miles from the Cadia mines to the west ern railway.

211. you think t hat all the ore that is enumerated in those districts is really of commercial value?-Y es, I think t hat is co rrect. A very large quant ity of t he Cadia ore con tains copper and sulphur, but I do not know t hat that is by any means prohibitive of it being profita bly sm elted. 212. Notwithstanding the sulphur in t-he Cadia ore, you think it co uld be worked, and you men­

t ion in your repor t that the sulphur could in a great measure be elimina t ed by roast ing, and it mi ght perhaps be po s1ble t o leach and profitably extract the co pper from the roaA t ed ore. You mention that the ore from the famous Cornwall mines in P ennsylvania contains bo t h sulphur and copper, yet enormous quantities have been raised a nd smelted and the output still continues 7-Y es: It has not been settled

yet whether you co uld roast t he Cad ia ore and thereby free it from sulphur. I think it is Yery probabl e that it could be roast ed, b ut that is a point t hat has to be fou nd out. 213. B ut judging from the experience in Pennsylvania, yo u think it is probable t hat t he Cadia ore containing su lphur and copper migh t be developed ?-Y es. You will notice t hat I point out that the

Cornwall ore, P ennsylvania, appears to be generally smelted in con junction with other ores. I have no means of findin g out how much is smelted by itself and how much wit h other ores. 214. There is nothing to prevent it being smelted by itself ?- I think not , but still I cannot speak definitely on that point as to how far the sul ph ur and copper will detract from t he value of the ore.

215. Now, would you mind enumerating the places you include in the Southern district7-Breadalbane, W ingello, Queanbeyan, Goulb urn, and t he Chalybeat e Spring deposits. The Chalybeate Spring deposits are sit uat ed at various places along the main Southern line and also in the Jllawarra district.

2 16. · Can you t ell us how much of t he estimated quantity you give there is of commercial value 1 -I think it is all of commercial value. Some of it is fit for one process of st eel manufacture and som e for the ot her. The Sou thern deposits include a large quant ity of aluminouR ore, and this is su itable fo r flu xing in with other ores, but not suitable for smelt ing by itself. I can on ly my I thir;k it is d com­mercial value, but how much of it will be used I cannot say. 217 . Could you give t he tonnage of that?-Yes. The ore in the So uthern district ar e estimated to yield 6,5 00,000 tons. . 218. What do you think is the quantity of pig-iron required for the manufactures of A ustraha 1 - I have only taken l\'Ir. Coghlan's fig ures. He states t hat he estimate3 the vn,lue of all descri pt-ions of iron and manufactured iron imported into t he variou s colonies of AustralaRia as under:-Colony. Imports for AYeragc Y earl y 1m ports, l 94-1898. - -----·---- ·-·------1 -- --------------N ew Sout h ' Va les V ictoria ... Queen sland South Australi a ... ' Vestern A ustralia 'l'asma ni a N ew Zeala nd £ 2,358,263 l ,382,411 994,791 688,160 1,155,962 337,93+ l ' / 63,8/0 £ 1,824,490 1,097,16-! /93,89/ 512,7-!7 8D1,364 187,067 1,229,1/2 -------- --------- - £8, 681,451 £6,535,901

J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1902. 12

He further states that he es timates the quantity of pig-iron required to produce the I'natetial represented by these ''alues is appmxima tely 130,000 tons, and 470,000 tons pet annum for New South vVales and t he whole of Austmlasia r espectively. 219. By 317-. Joseph Uook. - 'l'h at is assuming that we made in Austealia everything that we used in the shape of iron ?.- Yes. 1' hat is a::cording to Mr. Coghlan.

220. By kh. L. E. G'room .- Do you think then there is sufficient ore in sight in N e\v South vVales to produce all t he iron r equired by the colonies of Australasia ?-Certainly I do. 221. F or many years ?-Yes. Certainly for the next 60 years. 222. That is in N ew South Wales alone?-Yes.

223. A ss uming, of course, that the consumption is not going to increase ?-I think you may say that the 60 yea rs would include any reasonable increase· in the consumption. 224. By jl:fr. J oseph Cook.-What is your opinion of those estimates 1 Do you think they are anything like accurate ?-Of course, I have not gone into the subject at all. I ha \'e no means of doing so.

225 . JJy lifr. L. E. G'room.-Do you know anything about the deposits of ore in the other States-anything that you have obtained from official sources ?.-Yes. 226. By Joseph Cook. - One moment, before you go away from these fig ures. I see you quote Mr. Coghlan as saying that 130,000 tons of pig iron would be required t0 produce the material used in

New South vVales?-Yes. Are you awa re that in Canada the consumption of pig iron las t year, with 2,000,000

more population than in the whole of the Commonwealth, was only 170,000 tons ?-I was not aware of that. I have no means of ascertaining how much of the iron goods used are manufactured in the colony and how much are imported. I was not aware of that. I have not looked into that quest.ion at all. It i!-! outside of my province to go into that, and I just gave those figures prepared by the GovePnment

Statistician to assist anybody who wanted to get the information. !d27 A. By· .iJfr. L. E . liroom.-Assuming that the consum ption was the widest possible limit, do you still think that there is sufficient ore in sight 1-Y es. I have considered the question in a general way. Even if that limit was increased several times there would be enough ore.

22 8. Do you kno\v anything about the deposits in Victoria the official reports there

would not seem to be any large deposits, but still of course they may not have examined them thoroughly yet. I wrote over to Victoria at the time I was preparing this book, and asked for all particulars ; a nd the particulars they gave me are given here. 229. Did you make inquiries regarding Queensland ?-Yes. Mr. Jack mentions immense iron deposits in the Cloncurry district.

230. Do you know of any other deposits in Queensl

232. It was stated. some time ago that there were large deposits about 6 miles from Ipswich, and a syndicate was proposed for the purpose of developing them ?-I know nothing about that. 233. Do yo u know anything about the South Australian deposits ?-I have no personal know­ ledge of them. ln a general way I have heard there are enormous deposits there.

234. Do you know anything about the quality of the ore ?.-No. I have heard it is good. I have not made any analysis myself. 235. Can you tel.l us anything about the iron deposits of Western Australia ?-Iron ores occur in Western Australia. As to the value of these ores from an iron smelting point of view, I could not say.

236. And as to the Tasmanian deposits. You have been officially informed of those deposits­ perhaps you could give us some information in detail ?-I think the best information is contained in the last report by Mr. Twelvetrees, the Government Geologist there. He estimates that at the Blythe River there are 17,291,000 tons of marketable ore available for exploitation above the level of the nver.

237. How does that stand the test of analysis 1-Accotding to the analysis of Mr. Ward it contains from 46 to 68·7 per cent. of iron, from 1·6 to 34 ·2 per cent. of silica, and from ·04 to ·09 per cent. of But I may tell you that that conveys very little to me, because he says the silica varies

from 1·6 to 34·2 per cent.; that is from an ore phenomenally low in silica to one that is out of all question high. I have seen this ore, and I believe that there extensive deposits of it. 238. Good commercial ore 7- Yes. I believe there is no doubt about that. 239. Have you any information as regards the New Caledonian ore?-Yes. There are extensive deposits t here, but the great majority of them would seem to contain a considet'able quantity of chromic oxide, which would militate against the use of the ore for ordinary purposes. It would be valuable for certain purposes. There may be other Jeposits that I do not know of; but on looking into the question I could only get particulars of deposits containing chromic oxide.

240. \Vhat do you think now as regards the deposits in the whole of Australia as to the

possibility of their supplying any requirements in Australia for iron 1-- -0h, I think that they could supply the iron for the next century, for certain-perhaps for many centuries. 241. From what you know of the geological formation of Australia generally, is it quite possible that t here are other deposits of ore which have not yet been discovered ?- That may be so. But what is ruore likely is that the deposits already known will prove to be of larger dimensions than they are believed to be at the present time.

242. If smelting works were established, say, upon the coast of N ew South Wales, near the coal-fields, do you think it would be possible, in the light of the experience of other countries, for them to profitably draw their supplies from some of these deposits yo u have ment ioned in other States; say, for instance, South Australia and Tasmania 7-0h, I think it is possible ; but I shou ld not like to say definitely that such ventures would be profitable.

lS J. n. l7tll Septembel't 1902.

243. I will put it differently. The mere fad of t he distance of the deposits from the smelting works, assuming thosf; works were put on the coast, would not in itself be an objection 1-For instanee, the Blythe River deposits are () miles from the seashore. Comparing the distance of those deposits from t he works, if placed on the so uth cofLst of New South 'iVales, with what you know of the distances ores are transported in Ge rmany and America, you do not think the distance alone would be an insuperable bar ?-No. Of course it would increase the cost of production; but, knowing what has been done in other parts of the world, I do not see why it should be an insuperable bar to the working of the deposits.

244. ·would you mind givin(( us the reason why you conHider the Lithgow district as a situable field for the erection of the furnaces ?-There are extensive deposits of good iron ore within a reasonable distance of the coal-fields. There are abundant supplies of coal, which at the time this book was written, in 1901, were delivered at the pit mouth at a cost not exceeding 4s. a ton. Mr. Sandford gave me that figure.

245. By M1·. Joseph Cook.-Th fLt is t h e cost to the consumer 1-He told me that it was costing him something under 4s. a ton for his coal-for the winning of the coal. That was the price of the coal to him. 246. I do not think it would cost him 2s. 6d. 7-I say-" not exceeding 4s., " and I think

that is an exceedingly cheap rate. I think there is nowhere else in the world where they can get it much cheaper. The next reason I give is that the climate is good, and there is an unlimited supply of good water. Good limestone can be obtained at Portland, which is distant by railway from Lithgow only 16 miles. There is an accumulation of many thousand tons of cinder, rich in iron, which could Le

smelted with the ores, and which would probably be a valuable addition to the furnace ch11rge. 24 7. What is the quantity of limestone at Portland 7-I think that it is probably inexh:.LUstibla. I haYe not made an exact investigation, but I have no doubt it is practically inexhaustible. 248. By Jl!T. L. E. Gt·oom.-I want to ask you to give: us some general information. You show here the commercial ores as follow-Magnetic ore or Magnetite, Red ore or Hremati te, Brown ore or Limonite1 S.pathic ore, Aluminous ore and Chrome ore. Could you classify those commercial ores for us in

what you consider the order of their value, if it is possible to distinguish them in order of value ?-It amounts to this-as a rule iron-smelte1 ·s like to have a mixture of a variety of ores; so it is very difficult to say. In a general way the most valuable ores are the magnetic ores and hrematite ores. 249. By llfro. Watson.--In that order?-vVell, a rich haematite should be as valuable as a rich magnetite. lt would be difficult to say that one is better than the other.

250. By Mt·. L. E. Groom. - Which is the next most valuable ?-Brown ore is nvt quite so good, because, as a rule, it requires more calcining-there is a lot of water in it. Spathic ore is sometimes an inferior ore, but often a very good ore. Many spathic ores are as good as haematite ores. Spathic ore is another name for carbonate ore.

251. What points determine the commercial value of iron ores 1-The chemical composition of the ore, its mechanical structure, and the nature of the impurities which it contains. 252. By Mr. Joseph Cook.-What do you mean by the "mechanical structure " of the ore ?-I will give you a,n instance. Take the Cadia ore, which contains sulphur. Before treating that ore you

would want to roast it to get rid of the sulphur. If it happened to be very dense it might be very

difficult to roast, because the air would not be able to get in to take out the sulphur. In that case it would be against the ore if it had a dense structure. Again, an ore might contain a certain amount of carbonate of iron which would decompose under the influence of heat, produce a porous structure, and assist in roasting out the sulphur.

253. By jJ1r. L. E. Groom.-And what is the next quality which wotild have to be considered?­ The position of the deposit relative to fu el, limestone and water, and the means of transport to t he fuel available. The third point to be considered is the cost of raising the ore--the cost of mining or

quarrymg. .

254. Can you tell us if the ores are ever found in a state of absolute purity ?-No; not like a state of chemical purity. The ores of iron are never found occurring in a state of absolu te purity. They invariably have other substances either chemically or mechanically associated with them, and not i-pfreq1.lently consist of two or more varieties of ore. ;

255. Can you tell us simply what the impurities are which are generally found ?--Magnetic ores seldom if ever contain even 70 per cent. of metal, and the great bulk of them less than 65 per cent. Perhaps the richest ore of commerce is the "K" grade, from Gellivare, Sweden, w.hich is to contain 68·69 per cent. of iron. quantities of ore are profitably smelted wh1ch contam only 30 or

35 per cent. of iron; but in these cases the impurities generally pos.sess. fluxing properties, so that. the cost of reduction is made cheaper. For practical purposes, when considenng only the percentage of Iron, we may perhaps clas.sify iron ores as follows:-Poor ores .. . ... 20 to 40 per cent. of iron

Medium ores .. . 40 to 50

Rich ores .. . .. . 50 to 70

The common impurities in iron ores may b.e classified two which

the value of an ore and those which enhance It. The former mclude sihca, phosphorus, sulphur, tltamc acid, and copper; the latter include magnesia, a,nd manganese. classifying the

ores I would rather use this arbitrary classificatiOn whiCh I have adopted here, that IS to say not to particularly regard the ores according to their :nineralogical that is as .magnetites or but to consider them as to their percentage of Iron. In descnbmg the ores m other countnes w the world they are always described as magne.tic ores, &c. . .

:l56. By Jfr. Watkins. - Doyou think, constdermg all the t.nrcumstances that you have mentwned at Lithgow, that that would be the as against works at a even

althou()'h you had to brin()' the ore from I asmama ?-I do not thmk I could speak defimtely on that point This book written for the State of New South Wales primarily; and then I was

considering the best place for the ores of New So uth !Vales, assuming that you not get ores from the colonies. I should not like to say at all whiCh would be the best propositiOn.

1439

J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1902, 14

25 7. By M1'- Fuller.-vVhen you were speaking . of the Carcoar deposit you said you were absolutely certain of there being 3,000,000 tons of ore there, but probably there would be 10,000,000. Would that probability apply equally to the Queanbeyan deposit 1-I have not had the same opportunity of examining t he Queanbeyan deposit. The Carcoar deposit was opened up by fiux quarries, and there

was a deep shaft sunk upon it, so I should not like to speak in the same definite manner in regard to the Queanbey

259. vVhile you have not had the same opportunities of prospecting in the Queanbeyan deposit, have you any doubt whatever that deposit is very much larger than the mininum estimate which you have put on it here ?-I would say the same as I say of the Carcoar deposit , that it is probably larger. 260. I s uppose it would apply generally to all these deposits ?-Not so much to the small deposits -the Spring deposits- because I could get a better idea of them. Take the Fitzroy deposit, where I had bores put down. I can speak very definitely with regard to that.

261. You are quite satisfied that t he Fitzroy deposit is not larger thn,n what you estimate here? think it very doubtful if it contains any more than I estimate. 262. I n Mr . Wilkinson's report he states that the quantity of iron ore available for smelting works in t he Mittn,gong or Picton district is estimated approximately at 8,234,000 tons 1-I cannot help saying t hat I clash with him there. I do not believe there is anything like that quantity. Of course I have had much better opportunities than Mr. Wilkinson had, because I had shafts and bores sunk on the deposits to prove them. He had not that advantage, and he had to give a general estimate.

263. By fih. L. E. Groom.- When was that estimate of his made ?-In 1891. 264. lJy fib·. J oseph Cook.- How long did it take you in the preparation of these memoranda?­ I suppose I was oft' and on engaged on it for two years, but then I also had other work to attend to. I was not on this work altogether.

265. It is quite safe to say that your examination has been a much more exhaustive one than any previous examination ?-Oh yes, I am sure of that. 266. By M1'. Fultm·.-You told us yesterday that there has been some good iron produced at Fitzroy, and you mentioned in your report here, on page 44, the fact of the seam of coal discovered there containing 8ft. Sin. of bituminous coal at a depth of 650 feet. Would that coal be valuable for use in working the iron ores found at Queanbeyan ?-The information that I had about this coal is very vague. They only put a bore dow n. They started a shaft and then stopped it. This I do know, that t he sarue seams, where they out-crop in the adjoining valleys, contain coal which is not good.

267. Would tha t be the Nattai Valley ?-Yes. They tried this coal in the early days when t hey were smelting this deposit and had to discontinue its use. •

268. By Mr·. Joseph Cook.-You are speaking of the out-crop?-Yes, but they have driven long adits, and worked the coal for some long distance in. 269. What distance ?-I could not tell you the distance, but I know they must have gone in two or three hundred feet at any rate.

270. Of co urse you know the out-crops of nearly all the seams are inferior?-Yes. They had coke works put down, and there were fairly extensive collieries there at one time judging by the workings. They put a tramway down, and I think they had the seams fairly well opened up. 271. By J1fr. Fulle1·.-I suppose you are sure that the out-crop at Nattai is the same as t hat at 1\'Iittagong ?-I think so. I h a"Te a geological map of the coal deposits in this book, and there is a section there showing that it is the same seam.

272. By Mr·. Watson.-The one Mr. Fuller is speaking of, is that at 650 feet think so.

273. By Mr· . Joseph Cook-The analysis seems all right ?- It varies very much. Four samples of the principal seams of coal gave on analysis the following results:-

Moisture ... ...

Volatile Hydrocarbon Fixed Carbon ...

Ash ... . ..

Sulphur .,. .. .

Specific Gravity .. .

Coke ... . ..

No.1.

1•35 25•77 60 ·06 12•24

0•56 1 •347 72·30

No.2.

1•40 24•61 59•22 14•08

0·69 1•376 73•30

No.3.

1•65 27•87 52·30 17'40

0•78 1'420 69·70

No.4.

1•17 19•25 47•59 31 •42

0·57 1'538 79•01

You will see that one contains 12·24 per cent. of ash whilst another contains 31 ·42 per cent. of ash. It seems to me t hat you have not very much information he1·e. There is only the statement that the per­ centage of ash in the lower part of the seam (sample No. l) is 12 ·24, and in the upper part (sample No. 2) 14·08.

27 4. By J1h. that informn,tion what would yo u say as regards the value of the coal

for smelting purposes ?-I say that the bore does not prove definitely t hat it is of value for smelting purposes. I would n,dd that t he same seam, where hitherto worked in t he immediate vicinity, has not proved to be good . There was a lot of work done in the Nattai Valley, and they had to stop working because the coal proved to be valueless.

275. I see you state that one of the features which gives a comm ercial value to the ore is its nearness to coal. The Queanbeyan deposit is t he outside limit of the field for which the Illawarra coal seams would be the eentre. How does the Queanbeyan seam compare in that respect, distance from the coal-field, with ores worked in other parts of the world ?-It is 108 miles from Queanbeyan to Moss Vale,

15

1441

J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1902.

and from Moss Vale across to Port Kembla, assuming a line were constructed, would be another 23 miles, which would bring it to 130 miles, roughly -speaking. Including the 12 miles of line required from the deposit to Queanbeyan, it would be, roughly, 150 miles. How would Queanbeyan compare with deposits in other parts of the world in regard to carriage 1-In America they carry it by train very

much farther. 276. And in England ?-The greater p01·tion of the best pig iron in England is produced from imported ores. The pig iron produced from a large proportion of the native English oreH is of a very inferior quality. The imported ore is largely brought from Spain, a distance of about 1,000 miles, by ships· over the sea; but the ore is very expensive. I may say th>tt the Bilbao ore is very expensive. I think they have to pay something like 1i:;s. or £1 a ton for it when it reaches England.

277. As compared with other deposits in England and America, the Queanbeyan deposit stands in a favorable position in regard to nearness to a coal-field 1-I would not like to say that definitely with regard to deposits occurring in England, but I will say it with regard to the Superior mines in

America, feom which the larger proportion of the American iron is produced. 27 8. By J1!?-. Jos eph Cook.-Are you, in making that statement, ·taking into account the difference in railway freights ?-No, I am not. I am simply taking distance. I am simply answering the question as it is put to me. 'rhere is another question that would have to be considered in smelting, and that is the ques tion of getting a proper blending of ores. In America, at Pittsburg, they are favorably situated in tlmt respect : they have large varieties of ores occurring at Lake Superior, and the

mines are not owned by the men who own the furnaces, and the furnace men buy so much Mesabi ore and so mu ch Menominee, &c., and make up a suitable charge. That is one reason why they are so successful in Pittsburg, because they are able to get a convenient blend of ores. 279. By Mr . .Fu.tler-. - Would not that apply to the ores in the so uthern field. You mentioned

that that aluminous ore at \Vingello was very valuable for blending purposes?-With a rich hematite. Well, to some extent it might apply, but I could not say how far. 280. For instance, the Blythe River ore iH a rich hematite. vVould not vVingello ore be valuable for blending purposes with it ?--I think it very probably would, but you see it depends on the amount of

other material that is in the ore. Take the analysis of the Government Geologist for the Blythe River ore. He states that it contains from 1·6 up to 30 per cent. of silica. If there be 1·6 per cent.

only of silica they would have to add aluminous ore or some other ore to form slag and get the furnace to run. If they simply had only 1·6 per cent. of silica the furnace would Hag because there would not be enough slag to k eep the charge fluid. But supposing it contained the higher proportion of silica it is a question whether they would require the aluminous ore. This aluminous ore is used for fluxing

the rich Cumberland hematite, which usually does not contain a high percentage of silica. It is very pure indeed. 281. In addition to the deposit at Blythe River there is a large deposit on the Penguin River, too, isn't there 7-I have heard of that, but I have no particulars.

28 2. I suppose there is no doubt that the iron will be brought to the coal ?-I think so, judging by what is done in other parts of the world. I think that will be found the more profitable method of dealing with it. 283. In the development of those two big deposits where in your opinion would be the most likely spot for their smelting ?-Somewhere on our eastern seaboard, either at Newcastle, or in the southern district, or Sydney.

284. But taking into consideration the difference which you gave us yesterday between the NewcasGle and the Southern coal for smelting purposes ?-No. Mr. Pittman gave you that evidence. 285. A re you aware of the difference between the two coals 7-Yes. Of course, it would be a little farther to take the ores to Newcastle also. The southern coast would be closer. Do you want me

to take Sydney Harbor into consideration, too 7 286. Y es 7-I think I can say that, that the Illawarra district would be the most convenient place to smelt those ores. 287. By M1·. Joseph Cook.-In the Illawarra district you would include Sydney and the Parra­ matta Rived- Well, of course, Sydney coal is a little bit under a cloud at present.

28 8. I am not referring to that at all ; but would you include in the lllawarra coast the

Parramatta River, irrespective of the coal being found there 7 Of course you know there is a proposition now to bring everything to Parramatta River ?-I thought they expected to use the Sydney coal at Parramatta. 289 . I do not think so. I think the idea is to get that coke, which you say is the strongest

in the world, from the Illawarra. 290. By MT . .Fuller.-Would not it be more to their advantage to bring their ore to the spot where the coal is mined, and where the coke is made, rather than to bring the ore to a place to which both the coal a.n d the coke would also have to be brought to smelt it;-Yes, I think it would.

291. By .!Jib·. Josep h Cook.-That is assuming that they make iron in the ordinary way without recrard to the residual products. Supposing, for instance, they put np a large electrolytic plant, as I un"derstand they contemplate, for using up the waste products in the manufacture of chemicals?­ I should say their primary object is to produce the iron, and I do not know that the manufacture of chemicals from the residue would be prejudiced in any way by having their works upon the south coast.

292. That would not make any difference, you think ?-No; but the question of fluxes would have to be considered. 293. By .ilb· all these things into t he positions of the and

P er 1guin rivers deposits, the positions of the other depos1ts of whiCh we have been speakmg, would the southern coal-fields be a favorable place for the establishment of iron works 1-In every respect, except flux, as far as I know. . . .

294. That is the limestone ?-I do not know of any large depos1ts of hmestone smtable for flux. 295. Are you aware of the deposits of limestone at Marulan ?- Y es, over there. That would have to be brought across.

J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1902. 16

296. The Marulan limestone would have to be brought in the same way as the ore from

Que::tnbeyan 7-Yes, on the same line. Are those deposits very extensive 7-Yes. I believe there is an inexhaustible supply of

good limestone in the Marulan and Goulburn districts. There is do doubt about that; a very fine limestone indeed. 298. By .A:b-. Joseph Cook-How far would that be from, say \Vollongong ?-It is about 23 miles across to the main Southern railway, but there is no railway at present.

299. By M1·. Fuller.--I will put it to you in this way : do the natural conditions of that

particular iron-field of Australia, taken in conjunction with the coal deposits, compare favonibly with other parts of the world for the establishment of a successful iron venture ?-The circumstances are not so favorable as they are, for instance, in Pittsburg. 300. In what way are they not so favorable as in Pittsburg 1-In the first place you have not got the same cheap flux. -

301. By M1·. Joseph Cook.-Nor the same cheap trainage. 302. By J£1·. Fuller.- vVe have a rate of 1d. a ton. 303. By .ilh. Joseph Cook.-They are carrying the great Lake Superior ore at 1-10th of a half­ penny per ton per mile on the railway ?-I think I would say t hat the conditions are favorable on the South Coast.

304. By Mr. Fu!ler.-But you would not feel disposed to go further than that ?-No. I should not like to compare them with Pittsburg. It would be a very difficult thing for me to do that. 305. Taking the whole of the circumstances of the Southern field into consideration how would it compare with the Lithgow field--remembering that the Tasmanian deposits would be available for Southern works ?-I do not know enough about the Tasmanian deposits from which Illawarra works would draw their supply of ore to be able to state definitely on that point.

306. You mean to say that you have not sufficient information about the Tasmanian ore ?-No. 307. We will take it with the construction of a branch railway line connecting Illawarra with the local ores. How would Lithgow and Illawarra compare then 7-I think Lithgow would have the better possibilities then on account of its ores. J,ithgow, with the Carcoar, Cadia, and Cowra ore deposits to draw upon, would -be in a better position than the Illawarra district. Of course I have never made any examination of the Lithgow coke. I cannot speak definitely of the coke there. I could not give you any information as to whether it is as suitable as the Southern coke.

308. vVith Lithgow as a centre what distance would you have to bring the Cadia ore by rail ?­ At the time I wrote this about Lithgow there was a railway to one of the big deposits, to Carcoar, and they were actually mining the ore and cttrrying it; and I took the existing rates for these estimates. It is 90 miles from Lithgow to Carcoar. I suppose it would be roughly 100 miles to the Cadia

deposits. 309. Would there be any necessity to construct a branch line to get at the Cadia deposits 1-y es ; 12 miles in a direct line. 310. By .JJb·. Joseph Cook .-That would be the Company's line. ']'hey would have ·to make that?-Yes. At Carcoar they have something under a mile to make.

311. By jJ£r. Watkins.-In relation to these modern furnaces, do they charge them solely with coke as a fuei ?-N o, I think they generally use a little coal as well. They can use a little coal

as well. 312. By M1· . Cook.-What kind of coal? Would it not have to be a strong anthracite?­ It would be better if it were anthracite, but I do not think it is absolutely necessary. I think they could use the Southern coal.

313. By .lVIr. Watkins.-Have you gone into the question as to the suitability of the different coals at all ?-No, I have not, I think I would rather not express an opinion on that subject. 314. I suppose you are aware that it is utterly impossible to use some coals for smelting purposes ?-Oh yes, I am aware of that. They can smelt without using coal at all. They can us e coke only if they like.

315. Still the question of cost would come in?-Yes. It has often been found an advantage to use a little coal as well. In some places still they smelt with only charcoal as fuel. They still find it economical to keep a few furnaces running with charcoal only-it makes a purer iron. 316. Is there any disadvantage in the presence of silica in the coal?-Yes. The less the silica in the ash, the better the coal for smelting purposes.

317. Is strength the only thing required in the coke ?-No. 318. There is no question of sulphur to be considered ?-Sulphur in the coke would be very objectionable for iron smelting. 319. And the question of ash has to be considered?-Yes.

320_ By Mr·. Joseph Cook.-There would not be any great percentage of sulphur in any ordinary ooke.?-In some of it there would be, but the less sulphur there is, the better the coke. 321. By },[?· Watkins.- Assuming these works were to be placed in one of the coal districts, strong coal without the presence of injurious ash would be a preferable coal to use in conjunction with coke to any soft coal ?-Yes; but then there would be other points to be considered. 1 should say a coal rich in carbon, a coal approximating to anthracite, would be a more valuable coal for smelting than a. bituminous coal.

322. You have not gone into the merits of the different coals from that stand-point, as to which contains the most carbon and which the most bitumen ?-No. 323. Then, in relation to the question of placing these works at Lithgow or on the coast, could you give us any information, now that we can draw supplies from other States, as to whether it would be better to put them up on the mountains where you have .to bring the product down to the seaboard to be· transhipped, as against putting the works at the port of shipment ?-That would certainly be an objection to the Lithgow site-its distance from the port. of shipment-as against a coal-field on the coast.

17

1443

J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1902.

324. By M1·. Watson.-A lot of t he products would have to be shipped to other parts of the Commonwealth- Yes; that would be an objection. 325. By M1 ·. Watkins. - But you have not go ne into the question sufficiently to work it out from a stand-poin t 1-No ; but I take it t hat a lot of the pi g iron and other products would have

to be taken to the other States. Some of the pig iron would have to be carried by rail to Sydney and then transhipped. . 326. So far as smelting is concerned in Australia to-day, have you gone into the question or noticed which cokes predominate in use for that purpose 7-'l'he Southern cokes. There is more Southern

coke ·used, I believe, than any other, but l would not like to say definitely. 327. I know t hat some people are blending the two coals with a view of sending coke to Broken Hill and other places 7-Most of the new coke ovens are bein()' erected down in the southern district. "'

328. But you co uld not say wh ether t hat was simply done from considerations of economy, or whether it was because the coke was better for the purpose I could not give any opinion on that subject. I have not gone into the matter except in a general way. 329. The wh ole t hin g, you think, would depend upon t he co mm ercial value of these fueb ; a,nd also the presence of fluxes a11d other con venienccs for smelting purpose,;?- Y cs, as to the cost at which

the ore could be produced. 330. By Jlf1' . Ftblle? ·. - Lithgow is 96 miles from Sydney, a,c ross the mountains. Taking t !J at into consideration, would t he establishment of iron works at L it hgow be of any value for the development of ores out ide the State of New South 'Wa,les ?-No. I t hink it is very unlikely that they wou ld bring m·es from the ot her States an l smelt them at Lithgow.

331. By Ah. Watkins.- Are you awa,re where the coa,l beds exist in New South Wa,les that rea,lly have the largest amount of carbon--which are the strongest 'I-I think the southern coal certainly ha:; more ca,rbon than the northern coal. 332. Are you aware that in the nort hern we em bra.co all classes of coa,l. vV c have the

b it uminous as well as a coal close on the a,nthracite ?- I have not gone into the question a,nd coulcluot answer it.

No.

333. You know nothing about what arc called the upper scams in the Newcastle district?-334-. H ave you any idea as to whether any flu xes exist a,round t he northern district near the coal this work I think you will find I give particulars as to the in the Port Stephens

district. On page 69 there is a,n analysis of the· limestones from the vVillimns and Ka.ruah ltivers. These are from sampl es which I collected from the beds there. 335. Did you find any large quantities there 7-Very little good limestone at a,ll of really first­ class quality. There is a certain quantity of second-rate limestone, b u t very little of first-class quality ;

perhaps hardly any that would compare with the Marulan or Portland limestone, and the bed:; are not very big. I would say t hat my investigations go to show that there is a very limited supply of good I imestone within a reasonable distance of Newcastle. 336. I n considering the value of iron ore, is it any test as to the purity of ore if it be used as a.

flux for other metals?-You mean to say, supposing it is used as a flux, would that be any indica,tion that it is good for the other pu rpo. e 7 337. Y es 7- To some extent it is. That is to sa.y, when buying the ore, buvers like an ore with a high percentage of iron in it ; and that is a quality which the iron would look fo r

too.

338. They require a fairly pure iron ore, free from any other materials-dirt, and so on ?-In a geneml way, that is so. 339. H ave you watched the operations of those smelting works that are eHtablished in New South Wales for the purpose of extmcting silver from low-grade ores and other metals 7- Y cs, to a cer ­

tain extent. 340. Can you say where they get the bigges t portion of t heir iron ore hom ?- They ha,1·e got a lot from Carcoar and a lot from Marulan. 341. Is that in the Southern district 7- Y es .

342. Do you know if they get the biggest portion from 'J.'a,sma,nia, 1- Yes. I know a, large pro­ portion of the flux comes from Tasmania. 343. Ily Mr. Joseph Cook.-Are you aware that all the ores now being sent a wa,y froin Carcoar go for fluxing purposes ?- Yes, that is so.

3H. By ilb·. Watlcins.-But you are also aware that the biggest portion that by those

people now comes from Y es; I belieYe that is the case- a very large qu antity, a,t any

rate. 345. They have tested pretty well all the iron ore in New outh \Vales with a, view to getting the best ?-There is another point yo u have to consider in this connexion. A man buying iron ore for fluxing purposes likes a small trace of gold or silver in it. . He recovers the gold and silver. It often occurs that the smelting companies will take :tn inferior fluxmg ore on a,ccotmt of the gold or

silver in it . 346. Are you aware whether the ore contains gold ?r "

34 7. If there was much I suppose 1t would pay t hem to \\'Ork 1t as a, gold nune 1-0h, no. I hat is not at all likely. The ores might contain say 1 per ton.' It is absolutely impossible to work such a,n ore with proftt as a gold ore, and yet the smelting compamcs woulJ get say 3s. 9d . a, ton for the gold in the flu x if they recovered it.

348. Are you aware that they the ore simply on account of its purity ?---It

be. I do not know. I have hoard it sa1d that It contams gold; bu t I baYe no means of ascertammg whether it does or not. 349. ByJ11·. J oseph Coul.;.- You ktl-c made some estim ates hct·e of Lhe cost of producing pig iron. You say that the cost per ton of ore containin g G3 per cent of iron and ·0 -15 per cent of plw.Jphorus at

F . l050!. c

·,

J. B. J aquet, l7lh September, 18

is given by Messrs. Head a t 12.·. 8d .; and the cost of producing one ton of Bessemer pig iron

at P ittsburg and Middlesbmngh, E ngland, is st ated to be as follows :-

1 ·66 tons oi ore at l 2s. Sd. 16 cwt. of coke at 7s. per to n 12 cwt. of limestone at 3s. per tou Labour ... Rcpait·s ... Other items

Pl'l'TSBURG.

Total

MmDLESDROUr:Jl .

I ·!).) tons of ore at l5s. 2d. 20 ·J cwt. of coke at His. 6cl. per to n !J cwt. of lim esto ne at 3s. 9d. per ton Labo ur .. . .. . ... . ..

Repairs .. . Other items

Total

£ s. d.

1 1 0

0 5 7

u 1

0 2 0

0 1 0

0 1 0

£1 12 51

----

£ s. d.

1 9 7

0 15

0 l

0 3 0

0 1 0

0 1 0

----- £2 12 2 ----Look fi rst at the Pittsburg estimate. You say t here that t he ore contains 63 per cent . of iron, and t hat it only takes I ·GG tons of ore to mak e a ton of pig-iron ?-Y es. 350. At L ithgow you sa.y :- "Below I give a full estim ate of t he cost of produ cing one ton of pig-iwn :--Calcining ore ... 2;1: tons of ore at Ss. 3d. 1 ton of coke at l5s. 10 cwt. limestone at 4s. Labo ur Repairs Sundr ies .. . £ s. d. 0 2 0 0 18 7 0 15 0 0 2 0 0 6 0 0 2 0 0 2 0 £2 7 7 " You estimate t hat t he ore wh ich will be used there is pretty much t he same quality as that used at P ittsburg, and yet you say t hat it will take 2i tons of or e to make a ton of pig-iron ?-The P it tsburg ore is estimated t o contain 63 per cent. of iron , buE t he Car coar ore, according to my t able, contains on ly 53 per cent .- -A difference of I 0 per cent . Of course t here are analyses which show t hat the Carcoar ore varies in metallic iron from 55 to 65 per cen t .; and, in making genera l estimates, I have rather had a tendency to make allowance for co nt ingencies, and to under-estimat e rat her than over -estimate. 35 1. t he cost of t he ore at P it tsburg, as shown by you, include the cost of t ransportation. Is i t the cost at t he point of use ?-The cost at P ittsburg, 12s. 8d . a ton, is the cost of t he ore to the iron smelter in Pittsburg. He buys it in Pit t sburg for 12s. 8d. a ton. 352. A n d the cost in Lithgow would be 8s. 3d. a t on 7-I estimate the cost of t he Car coar ore at t he present t ime at 8s. 3d. a ton. Y ou could deliver t he Carcoar ore in L ithgow at the present t im e fo r Ss. 3d. a ton ; and t hat is allowing 2s. a ton for royalty. It is a big royalty. 353. By Jlb·. Watson. - I s the Carcoar ore on private proper ty7-Yes. 354. By lib·. Joseph Cook.--Do t hey quarry ore at Carcoar for 1s. 6d . a ton ? Are t hese the pricliJS t hat are paid now 7-'l'hat is correct. 355. Where do you get this rate of 3s. 9d . a ton for the conveyance of t he ore 7-That is Ot d. a ton per mile- th e railway rate on ore carried in large quantities . 356. A re you aware that t he present rate for coal from Lithgow to Sydney is 6s. a ton, and the distance 95 miles; practically the same distance?-- I cannot speak as regards coal. There is a special rate for ore carried in 120-ton lots, I believe. 357._ JJy Jl[r. JVatlcins .--I suppose you ar e aware t ha t t hey pay, with a very slight reduction, almost ld. a mile on t he coal in the N ewcastle district 7-Yes. 358. By J!1·. Joseph Coolc.- Then t he ore i n your Middlesbrough estimat e is 1·95 tons of ore at His. 2d. a ton to prod uce a ton of pig iron. H ow do you account for t he excessively high price of t he ore at l\1 iddlesbrough 7-That is due to t he fa ct that t here t hey chiefly smelt Spanish ore from Bilbao, which is carried over the sea from 1:3pain. 359. You are also aware that in t he Cleveland district t hey smelt a lot of br0wn ore ?- Y es. 360. Do you know anything about t he quality of their own native ores 7-Y es; but you m ust remember t hat t he Bilbao ore produces t he best iron, and the Cleveland ore prod uces an inferior iron. 361. Is the cost of calcining included in t h e estimates fo r Pittsburg and Middlesbrough ?- I am not quite sure whether t hey do calcine there. It is not always necessary t o calcine an ore. I wo ul d not be certain t hat it would be necessary to calcine t he Lithgow ore, though I have provided for it in my estimate at 2s. a ton. 362. Have you checked these estimates since. Do you see any reason to alter t hem in any way 7 -No, I do not. I think that Lithgow estim ate is an outsid e estimate. :363 . How do you account for the great difference in the cost of ore at L ithgow, Pittsburg, and l\1iddlesbrough-in Pittsburg £ 1 1s. per ton of pig produced ; in l\fiddlesbrough, £ 1 9s . 7d. per ton; and in Lithgow £1 Os. 7d . per ton (18s. 7d . with 2s . per ton for calcining) 7--The cost of t hose ores depends on

19

1445

.T. 13. Jaqnet, lith September, 19M.

at Middlesbrough the ore ifl Sp:tniHh, which has to be brought from Bilbao, 1,000 mile;;, by sea, and probably a short distance by land as well, and t he ine<·eased at Middleshwugh i::; due to the high eos t-, of carriage. There iH not mu eh differe nce in the cost between J'ittsl'nrg alld Lit-hgow, £1 ];;. and £ lOs. 7d.

3G3A. Are you aware that in l\1 iddlcsbrough a,t the present time they arc using nati vc orcs down as low as 30 per You arc referring to the Cleveland ores.

364-. Yes 7-I am aware that they smelt Cl eYe land Ot'Cs containing perhaps Uw.n :30 per cent. of iron. :3G:), And if they could nfford to smelt that properl y why do they want this particular ore from Spain 7-Becausc the Cleveland orcs produce a very poor pig, which is unfit for t he mmwfacture of

by t he acid processes. The Clc1•eland orcs contain

clmw their supply from. Suppo.·e t hey draw their s upply from C

. 3G7 . I am speaking of yoU!' estimate ars you have given it hNc fOl' Lithgow. Does that i nclude equal classes of pig iron is the estimate for producing

at Lithgow, using the Carcoat' ore, they would usc an ore containing an objedionnhlc quantity of phosphorus. 369. And, therefore, assuming this estimate to mean pig produced from Carcoar ore, and the other to mean the best Bessemer pig iron in t he world, of what vnlue are these comparisons ?-They are

of valu e as showing you the cost of producing t he pig iron. 'l'he cost of production docs not depend on the value of t he product obtained. 370. But when the product i;; produced, that a ton of one is worth 15s. or £ 1 more

t han a ton of the other 7-It depend;, on what you use it for. I thought it would be a useful thing t o give a-n estimate of the cost of producing the pig iron. 371. vVe are considering now the competiti vc aspect of it. It is of no use our producing pig iron in Australia unless we can use it to compete 1--I cannot do any better for you.

372. Really t here is no comparison between a. ton of the best Be semer pig iron and a ton of pig iron pl'Oduced from the Carcoar ores do not know that. 373. Well, you have already told u" that one is much more valuable than the othcd-That is the only difference-one is a better class of iron.

374. And being a better class of iron, wc uld be worth more in the market Micldlcsbrough iron would be worth more in the mar·ket. 375. So t hat, although it costs more to produce it than the estimated cost of the Ca,rcoar iron, it may, when produced, be worth more in the market ?-That is so. The Middlesbrou gh pig iron wo uld be

wo rth more than th e produced from the Carcoar ore alone. 376 . Would that also apply to the Pittsburg iron 7-The Pittsburg iron is not quite so good as t he Middlesbrough, because the Bilbao ore is a purer ore than the great bulk of the Lake Superior ore. 377. Now, as to the coke: You say in Pittsburg it takes 16 cwt. of coke to make

I co uld get. 378. In Pittsburg it takes 16 cwt. of coke to make a, ton of iron, in l\Iiddlesbrough :20 cwt., and in Lithgow 20 cwt. The coke costs in Pittsburg 5s. 7d., and in .M:iddlesbrough i 5s. lO}d.- how do you account for that ?---I cannot account for it, except that these are the figures. The coke is so much

cheaper in Pittsburg; t hat is all. I cannot give you the r eason why they can make coke for 7s. a ton iu P ittsburg, but I have a very reliable authority stating that such is the case. 379. Doesn't i t seem almost incredible that there sh ou ld be thnt difference between the cost of coke in Middlesbrough and Pittsburg?- It seems ra.ther extraordinary; but I think those fi gure::; arc

reliable. is probably dearer a,t l\iidd lesbrough . This p:1.pcr by Head ,_ which _T :nn

quoting, was read, I think, before the Society of Engince l's in London, a,nd largely cntlcu;c J hy nnmng men and ironmasters in England afterwards. 380. By il.fr. L. E. G 'I'OOJn -Did it seem to stand the t est of criticism?-Y es. 381. By llf1· J oseph Coolc.-How do you think it comes a-bou t that in Pittsburg they can smelt

lt tons of ore with 16 cwt. of coke, while in Lithgow a ton of coke will smel t 21 tons ore-is that owincr to the class of furnace or what. In Middlesbrouo-h it takes a ton of coke to a httlc less than 2 to:s of ore-why should it' take less coke at Lithgow th;n at .Jliddlesbrough ?-Cum pare with l\liddlcs­ brough first: J ... ithgow, 2l tons of ore to 1 ton of coke ; l\lidJlesbrough. 1·9.) tons ?f or_ c to :20 ·3 cwt. of coke. There is not so much difference between them. Y ou sec h ct·e I state-" t h1s estu11ate mu st only

be regarded as a 1-ough approximat ion." In making t 1i.-; c.-;timo,h• I compared wiU1 a m1mlJl'r of other estimates, and I do not pretend that I am giving the exn,ct figures there, hu t you w

382. By ilfr. L. E . G1·oom. - You tlunk 1t 1s an extrem e lumt ?-Yes. . . . .

383. By J1b·. Joseph Cook-How do you get t he of coa,l th_ erc ?-1 found 1L \'C'IT .cld11 cult. I think that is the weakest item. At present they l1l'C makmg coke at L:thgow all(] clmrgtng £I Is. a ton for it. They were selling it to the Cohar people. I t hink I found they were then charging £ 1 ls. a

ton for makioo- cok e in small lots. Of com·se they co uld make it much cheapct· if they Wl'rc nmking a 0 . laro·e lot for iron works, so I red uced 1t b v 6s. 0 384,, Do you know wh rLt the cost of cokP is in the TllmmtTa district; fot· ins!rtncc•, Llw B t·oken Hill companies arc slllclting thei r own ore t here ; d<> yuu know what the coke c:osling theill --No. c 2

J. B. Jaquet, 17 th September, 1902. 20

385. You are no t aware t hat they are producing their coke at the present time for less t han 9s. a ton ?-I think that is very likely. I have a recollection now that I found t h1tt they were making the coke very much cheaper a.t other places t han they were making it at Lithgow. 386. A lt hough the coal is very much dearer elsewhere ftn d you have already told us that there is probably t he cheapest coal in t he world at Lithgow ?- ·Y cs . I have no definite information about the coal. I have heard t hat it takes very much longer to coke the L ithgow coal than it does to coke t he other coals; that is one reason why it is more expensive. But that is j ust hearsay. I have uevcr had an opportunity of investigating t he subject. _

387. But you know that co::tl costs more to in the Tllawarra district t han at L ithgow 1-Y es. 388. And you would not be sm·prised to hear that after purchasing that coal from t he proprietors of the coal-fields in Illawarra and producing your own coke they still do it at t he present time at less than 9s. a ton in t heir own ovens ?-I t hink that is very likely .

389. W ell then, if after purchasing that more costly coal they are able to produce their coke at less than 9s.

390. On t he whol0 you think this estimate is high 1-No. t he whole of my estimates are outside estimates, but taking that st

I should not like to say that. I think. particular item I would rather let it

391. You think that that wou ld be the cost, to Mr. Sandford say, in Lithgow at the present time 1-I have told you that it is really a rough estimate, and that I co uld not speak exactly on that point. I had a great deal of difficulty in arriving at this figure and it is t he best I can get. My

evidence is, I should say, of very little v;tlue as to what they could produce coke for. 392. Would you care to say who ga,·e you this information about the cost of coke up there ?--I think it is most probable that I got it from 1\'Ir. Sandford. I think he bought a little coke, and he told me it cost him £ 1 l s. a ton buying it in small lots. I would not say for certain about t hat.

393. In this comparative estimate you have got down-" Labour 2s . per ton" in Pittsburg. vVhat does " labour" include there-merely the cost of operating the furnace ?-I take it that it includes the whole of the labour. I had ver-y little data to go upon when I made the estimate of the Lithgow cost. They were making very little coke at Lithgow then. This can only be regard ed as a rough

approximation. I had the greatest difficulty in arriving at anythi ng like a good conclusion, but I had to give an approximate estimate. 394. Now, as to this labour. vVhat does this labour cost include-2s. per ton of pig iron at P ittsburg-does it mean the cost of operating t he furnaces ; for instance, I presume t he cost of the ore includes the cost of mining the ore ?-That is so. The "labour" is the labour employed in handling the ore from the time it is delivered.

395. In operating the furnace 1-Yes. 396. Now, you have it at 2s. in Pittsburg and 3s. in Middlesbrough. Have you any opinion as to that difference in price ?-I do not know. I have simply taken their figu res . . 397. The popular assumpt ion is that wages-{lre very much lower in Engbnd than in America?­ Yes, but in America they may use a lot of labour-saving appliances. I am simply t aking the figures as they are quoted by Messrs. Head.

398. Can you . tell me why you put labour down at 2s. in Pittsburg, 3s. at :!VI iddlesbrough, and 6s. in Australia ?-As I told you I wanted to make an outside estimate. The probability is that they co ul d produce it cheaper. 399. Don't you think it is very much outside-anyhow, you say the probability is that they could produce it cheaper. N ow, I notice, repairs you ha.-e I s. per ton in Pittsburg, I s. per ton in Middles ­ brough, and 2s . in Australia-that again you regard as an outside estimate?-Yes.

400. And the same with regard to the other items, sundries, I s. each in America and England, and 2s. in Australia ?-That is so. 40 l. You regard all those as being outside estimates?-Yes. 402. I suppose you know nothing about t he cost of bringing other ore from Tasmania to New South vVales ?-No. I can give no estimate as to what it would cost .

403. If you were revising this estimate of yours now woul d you modify any of these items ?-I would not. 4-04-. You would still leave them at what you regard as an outside rate?-Yes. This was on ly a rough approximation, and I thought that in a work of this kind it was better for me to give outside estimates.

-i05. To err on the safe side?-Yes. I thought it would be advisable to giYe a rough sort of approximation, and this is the one I gave. I know well enough that no one had got the dr,ta to enable him to give an accurate estimate. I say directly afterwards in my bvok-" This es timate must only be regarded as a rou gh approximation."

406 . It does not take into account the interest on the capitnJ out lay?-It does not. 407 . By A£1·. L. E . Groom.-But that applies in each case ?-Yes. 408. Ry 1111-. Ji'ulleT.-In answer to 1\'Ir. Cook you said that t ho Carcoar ore contains some objectionable features, and that first-class iron could not be produced from it 'I-I did 110t say it would not be suitable for steel, but I said it would not be suitable for the manufacture of steel by the cheaper acid process.

< J09. It woul d not be on an equality with the Middlesb1 ·ough pig· iron; produced from t he B il bao ore ?-No. 4 I O. Nor would it be equal to t.he Pittsburg ore ?- No. It wo uld not be equal to the iron

produced from the gr at bulk of the Lake Supcrior ores. I dare sny they do produce a large quantity of iron of t hi s quality in P it tsburg.

21

1447 J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1n02.

411 . Does that apply t o t he Cadia ore ?- There is a large quantity of ore in Cadia fro m which t hey could produce pig iron fi t for the manufacture of steel by the acid process, the cheaper

412. ·would t hat he on-an equality wit-h. the stuff t urned out in P itt sburg and Middlesbrough ?-Y es, I thi nk it would. ... · · · ...

i 1:3. B y }Jf r . Watson .- You are referring no w to the oxicl i.zecl or e.s ?-Yes ; and it is quite possible t ha t the whole of the ore might be used to make a pig iron suitu,ble fo r steel manufacture, though I should not like to speak definitely upon that point. It is quite possible tha,t t hey m>Ly overcome t he copper and sulphu r 'djiliculty.

414. Is there t he same d ifficu l ty with regard to the Blythe River and other ?-vVell, if we take the analyses given by ::\'lr. Twe!vetrees, t here iti sometimes :ts much as ·09 of phosphorus in the ore. 4 15. By jJf? ·. J oseph Cook.-vV hat. nre the silie:t contents ?--From 1·6 to 34·2. \Vell, thnt menns

nothing at all. It does not tell yo u what the avemge grade of the ore is. 41 G. By Jlf1·. L. E . Groom.- That means from t he useful to t he useless?- Yes. Now, take. the phosphorus : the lowest is ·04. Well , suppose it was a 50 per cent. ore, the pig iron produced from that would contain, roughl y speaking, twice that amount of phospl10rus, or ·OS. \ "fell, that would not be a very good pig iron fo r steel. ·06 is genemlly considered the Bessemer limit. The Blythe R iver ore runs from ·04 to ·09. If the ore contains 50 per cent. of metallic iron, th e pig iron produced from ore

containing ·09 of sulphur would coutftin ·18 of wlphur. If figures are correct, the Blythe Hiver ore would not produce a very valuable pig iron. · +17. By Jlh·. Watson.-The figures are not of much value ?-The phosphorus is better to judge by. I think yo u can consider the amtlysis as regards its phosphorus as being of some use to us.

4 18 . .By M1·. F1bller.-Then we would not get from the Blythe ltiver a product similar to P ittsburg or Middlesbrough iron ?-Not if those figures are corr·od. I do not know about P ittsburg. I think it wo uld approximate to the Pittsburg, but probably not he HO good as the Middlesbrough. 4 Hl. How would the Queanbeyan deposit stand in this connoxion. \Vould thoro be t he same objection 1-I t has not been opened up. A > far as my analyses go, th ey show. it to be an ore from whieh a vahmble steel-making pig i ron could be produced. The Quean boyan ore is unquestionably very low in phosphorus, and in t hat respect i t wo uld b e a valuable pig. Of course i t contains a trace of copper, which is certainly against it; but the copper is not very high.

4 20. By .Mr. L. E . Groom.- 1N ould it compare with tlte Bilbao ore at all ?-Yes, I think it does co m pttre wit h it. '12 1. lJy Jl[r. Fnller. - Thca of all the ores in Austmlitt, mny we take i t that the Queanbeyan ore stands first fo r tlmt particulnr purpose ?-No. I would not say that. T here is a very good ore at

Broula, near Cowra. I estimate that tl 1ore are about l 00,000 tons there. 422. By Mr. Watson. - M r. Fuller wants an estimate of q ual ity in relation to quantity. 423. By .Af?·. Puller.-Yes. The big deposits are Carcoar, Cadi

not been opened up, and I bil.ve not got the n umber of analyses of Queanbeyan ore that I have of other ores. 424. vVi th regard to the Sou th A ustmlittn There is a very hu·ge deposit in South

Australia; is it n ear t he coast ?-I think it is close either to Po1·t Pirie or P ort 425. For t h e development of that particular field, where will be the most likely spot for t he erection of iron works from a geolog ica.l point of view. You a geological knowledge of South Australia, I presume ?--Only f ro m what I have read. I do not think they haYe found any good coal

t here. 426. Speaking from your geological knowledge of Australia ?-I should say on our sea-board undoubtedly-on t he sea-boa rd of New South \Valef, 427. In r egard to Lithgow, the existing rate for the conveyance of ore you have put down at 3s.

9d. per ton. vVh ere is t hat from ?-That is f rom Carcoar. 428 . How much would it be from Cadia ?-They have not got a railway constructed t here. 42 9. Supposing t hey had a railway const r ucted, how much would i t be ?-If th e Government constructed the railway it would be about 10 miles f urther, and t ha t would be about 5d. a t on

more. 430. 'l'hat would bring i t up to 4s. 2d. 7-Yes. Cadian ore should cost about ±s. 2d. to bring it from Cadia t o Lithgow. 43 1. B y 1'1-h. Cook.-As against that, if the line were constructed righ t up to the deposit at Cadia you could deduct the l s. per ton which you have included in the Carcoar rate as the cost of

cartage to t he railway ?-That is so. My estimate in connexion with t he Lithgow is made sup­ posing that Carcoar ore were to be used. If Cadian ore were there w<:_uld be a mcrease on t he

cost on account of t h e extra distance it would have to be earned, about od. a ton If the Government construeted the railway, and if the rates were t he same as they are now. · 432. vVould t here be any cartage if the railway were taken right up to the mine 7-No. 43 3. B y 1YI1 ·. Fnlle1·.-In the estimate here for Carcoar ore, deliYcred at Lithgow, there is Is. a

t on included for car tage?- Yes. 43 4. That I understand in consequence of the quarry being a mile from the railway, and you allow l s. a ton?-Yes. . . . _

435. Now, if this line is comtructed to the Cad1an quany you say It will cost od. extra, 5d. over and above the eost at Carcoar, but as the l s. a ton for cartage would not be required, there would really be a reduction of 7d. ?-In the event of a railway being constructed by the Government to Cadia t he cost of t he ore to Lithgow would be 4s. 2d . per ton, and in the event of the siding being put

in to deposit Carcoar the cost of conveying this (Carcoar) ore to Lithgow wou ld be 3s. 1 O cl . per ton .

J. D. net,

litl1 Hcptl'llliJCi' 1 100:!. 22

4·3G . By Jlh. J oseph Cook.-Hero is you r es tima te-" 'l'he cost of delivering the Carcoar iron me upon the rail W

tract Price for Quarrying

8m·t111g Ore to Rnihrny ...

s. d.

1 6 per t on.

1 0

2 6

Tho quanies are less than a milo distant from the railway · and in the event of a market bein " found fur J b largo regular supplies of ore, a short line might be constructed and the ore delivered directly into the rmlway trucb. Tho di:-;tanct' by railway to Lithgow is 90 miles, and the existing rate 'for t l1 e eon veyance of ore is 3s. 9d. per ton ; so the ore cou ld be delivered in Lithgow for G :-;. 3d . ptr ton, and I propose to increase this amount by in order to provide fo r royalties, profit, &c."; which makes up Ss . 3d. per ton ?-Yes. In Cai·coar, if they run the rail way line right up to the quarrie,, t here will be a saving.

4.37 . By Jb-. Watson.- The .Bilbao ore is looked upon as one of t he best ores available to-day I understand ?-The Cumberl and hematite-the ore mined in Cumberland, England, is about as good, and oven better orcs m·p in Norway and Sweden.

438. That is largely worked h ut I believe the Bilbao deposits are largely worked out.

. . . Taking the quanti ties of reall y superior ore available in the world to-day they seem to be

largely ?-Oh n o. 'l'he American Rupplies, although not quite so good as the Spa nish ore,

are really very good . They lmve inexhaustible s upplies of very good ore in America. 4-!0. l\Jr. Fuller was asking whether the Bilbao ore was better t han tho ore used at Yes. 4+1. 'Ve might therefore rate the Pittsbmg ore brought from the Mesabi Ranges 1ts second-rate m·o ?-No. I would call it fi 1·st-class; and I would call the :M:iddles brough extra fir ·t-class.

442. It would seem then that the Pittsburg ore wo ul d be roughly as good as you are likely to usc throughout the world in any gr eat quantity?-Y cs. 'l'he supplies of some of the very pure ores i11 the world are getting used up. 4-13. Therefore it is not necessary, in regard to any commercial undertaking here in Australia,. to set om· ore against .the Bilbao oro, but rather t he Pittsburg 1·-I think you might tu,ke it that even if it a little inferior to the Pittsburg ore it will he sufticient for all purposes.

4H. Do you think the Cadia a nd Cnrcoar deposits are better than the Mesa.bi or es ?-No. The L

44G . By Jh-. 1Vatson.-But taking it generally you think the Australian supply of ore is fairly f.!;•)Od ?--You arc talking in regard t o its usc for t he manufacture of steel after having manufactured it

i11to pig-iron. Pig-iron is not only used for the m:1nufacture of stee l. If you are talking of the man u­ facture of steel I think, on t he whole, t hey are not very good . 447. 'l'ake steel rails-would you get as s'l.tisfactory results for railway purposes yes, I believe they could make very good steel out of them, but I think it would cost rather more to produce the steel.

448. And for general manufacturing purposes, such as agricultural implement::; and machinery of kinds ?- Y cs.

-149 . But it would cost a little more?-Ycs. A good foundry iron could be mad fl from Carcoar ore. -!50 . By jjf?-. J?ulle1 ·.-Do I understand you to say that it would cost more to prod uce the steel, and then when produced it would be of an inferior quality 7-I do not t hink it would be of an inferior 11ua,lity, I think it would be a very good steel though it might not be so good as some produced from t he

very best vres. 451. On the whole, would it he on an equality, for instance, wit h the Pittsburg steel1---I think it would come very close to it, if not as good. 452. And how much would it cost ?-I cannot g ive you any idea of t hat. I co ul d not g ive you any idea as to wlMt the extra cost would Le, because they would probably have to use one of t hese new processes, and I could not give you an estimate as t o what the increased cost wo uld be.

-!53 . By 1lh. Watson.-I would like you to g ive sho1-tly some account of the initiation and failure of the iron industry in New Sou th "\Vales ?-There are no ancient iron-workings here. Most co untries have ancient where the iron has been worked by the aboriginal inhabitants. "\Ve have

nothing of that kind here. Iron was first produc"ld from native A ustralian ores about the year 1852 at Fitzroy, near 1\Iittagong, and smelting was c:trried on intermittently in this locality between the years 1852 and 1877. The ore was obtaiiwd from a superficial mass of limonite deposited from Chalybeate Spring waters. Local coal obtained from the Nattai Valley was first of all used for fuel, but it proved unsuitable, u,nd subsequently the furnace was supplied with coal and coke brought from Lithgow and B ulli. At least

4,000 tons of pig iron 1nust haYC been produced, but no records are available as to the exact amount . Much of the pig iron to have been of excellent quality. Some of it was exported to San

Francisco in America, nnd favorably commented upon by buyers in this city. The venture did not prove 1inancially successful, partly 011 account of t ho gTeat cost of the fu el and partly on acco unt of the ;.;mall sc::tle of the opcmtions and goneml mismanagement. Fuller details will be found in h ·on 01·e .Deposits rf New South Wcdr's , 1, 2, and 3. Iron smelting was started at Lit hgow (Eskbank) in

187[>, one small blast furn ace being employed. T his furnace was in blast intermittently during several :vears, and about 22,000 tons of pig i1·on were producc1l. The ore was obtained from the narrow. clay­ oands which are interstmtifiod with the co::tl meas ures in the I,ithgow Vttlley, and also from depos1ts a t N owbridgt' nnd Blayney. A pl'Ufit did not result from t he opemtions. The pig iron produc(ld was used for fo und ry purpose-s, :w d no attempt was made to eonvc- rt it into steel. Th e works were not properly equipped, ttnd were upon a \'Cry i>mall scale-, and those ei rcum stm1ces mu st, in a _great_ measu re caused Lhc operations to be unpl'Ofitablc. \Yith n mod em blast furnace of average d111Jens10ns more n·on

23

1449

J. B. J aquet, 17th 'eptcmbel', lOOi

co uld be produced in a few mon ths than tlt e Lithgow Worh produced cluring yca,rs.

Small furnaces using charcoal for fu el have been erected in the State of Victoria, South Australia, and Tasmania. Only insignificant quantit.ies of pig-iron were produced, and none of the furnaces remained in for any length of time (Vide b·on Deposits of New Wales, pages 1±7, 14-8, and 150).

Before conclucling I may state that no attempt has hitherto been made to produce iron from Australian orcs upon a co mprehensive scale, and no steel has yet been produced from Australian pig-iron. It is true tlmt a little steel has been recently manufactured at I-ithgow, not however from pig iron but from scrap, which must have at some time or other been imported from abroad.

45 -L I have just drawn up a sh,ort table showin g so me information whid1 we would like to have in a concise form, giving the different occurrences of iron, their analyses in a rough way (giving only those ingredients or elements which are held. to be detrimental to smelting or to the manufacture of steel a nd any elements which will be advantageo us for those purposes), the of ore, the estim ated

minimum quantity in tons, the average contents of metallic iron, flilicn, phosphmus, wlphul', titanic acid, aud a.lumina, and any other information which you may suggest as useful. You might give the distance of the deposit from the coal and from the limestone, and you might include the information as to t.he tenures which M:r. Pit tman has promised to prepare ?-I will do so. 'l'h o information follows :-

Locali L.r . J escript ion of Ore. Estim ated Minimum Silica.

per cent. per cent.

ANALYSES.

Phosphorus per cent. Di stance from Coa l. Tenure. H cm n.rks.

- - - -------------- - --- ·----- ·------1--------[----------

Quea.nbeya.n Magnetite 1,000, 000 50 to 00

Brea.dalhane Brown ore, 700,000 50 to 60

wiLh some

hCIHnti te

Chalybeate Brown ore 1,510,000 45 to 55

Spring d e·

posits of Mi t -tagong, Pic-ton, &c. IYin gello Aluminous 3,000,000 15 to 25

(bauxite) ore

Goulburn " Brown ore 1,022,000 40 to GO

Marulan Brown ore, 40,000 40 to 55

with h em a-tite

" "illia..ms and Titani.fcrous 1,973,000 40 to 50

1\ aruah River rlist l'icts mag netites

Cadia " H ematite, mag·- 30,()1)0,000 50 to 60

netite and

c"arbonate ore

Carr.oa r 1-Iro ma.tite a nd 3,000,000 50 to 55

brown ore

Cowra 100,000 60 to 65

Gulgong Magnetite 120,000 60 to 65

and Brown ore 609,000 50

Woodstock

Mudgce Brown ore with 150,000 40 to 54

tnan g-anesc

Newbridgc, Brown ore and 150,000 40 Lo 55

Blayney, and mag neti te

Ry lston e and Brown ore 44 3,000 40 to 55

Cudgegong

\ Vall erawang Brown ore 2,0\!0,000 40 to 55

and Piper's

FlaL

Total 53,017,000

5 to 10 0'01 15 mil es by road,

117 miles by

train to Mitta-g·o ng*

5 to 10 0 ·098 t o 0 mil es by train

to M i ttagong- ·*

4 to 16 o·o5 Lo 3 '0 Coal underlies

deposits

5 to 20 o·oz to o·2 1 to 3 miles by

road, 28 miles by t rain

*

t o

5 to 13 0·1 to0·5 1 to 10 mil es by

road, 57 miles by rail to

Mi ttngong "'

5 to 13 o·1 to 0·5 35 mi les by train

to Mi tta;;ong *

10 to 20 0·04 to 0·2

5 to 14 ·013 to ·O f> l 12 mi lcs by road,

00 miles by

train to Lith·

gow

4 to 11 ·o2 to '17 1 mil e by road,

00 miles hy

.train to Li th-gow

2 to 6 '03 8 miles h.r road,

130 mileR ·b.r train to Lith-gow

2 to 6 '03 30 mil es by road,

00 miles hy

t rai n to Lith-

g-ow miles hy 3 to 8 ·oi to ·83 3 to 6 roarl, 05 miles by t ra in to

3 to 10 ·so 13 road,

90 miles by

train to Lith ·

gow

5 to 12 to 5 m il es b,·

road , abou t HiO miles by rail

to Lithgow

:; to 1G '05 to ·3< • 4 to 10 miles by

r oad. fiO mil es b\· t rain t o

Li t hgO\\"

5 to 16 ·unto·;,:! to JO by

road , lJy train to

Lit h:;ow

Upon C. P. :\lid

C. L. lands. !ron-stone resened to Crown P

vat e land a ncl pru·tly t: pon

C.P. 1and1 wit!. minerals ...

served t o t he

Crown Chiefly upon pri· vatc land. A

few d e] osits

a.re upon Crown lands Chiefly upon C. P. lands, with

min ends l'C·

SClTCtl to the

Cro\\Ta Chiefly upon pri-m te land

Chiefly upon 0, 1?. la.nds, w1th

minerals re-

served to the

Crown Partly upon pri-,·ate land an d

partly upon

Crown lands Private Janel

(owner has alJ-solute right to ironstone)

Printtc land

(owner h as

rig·ht to i"ron· stone)

Chiefly upon

Crown land

co,·ered by

mineral leases

upon pri­

,·ate and pa rtly u pon Crown

land Pri"a.te land

Crown land,

co,·crecl In ·

mineral lcas·c not in force upon pri­

,·at e land

:\ lainl _r upon C: P. lands w1 t h

tn inerals rc-

sen ·ed to

Crown Partly upon pri­ ,·ate and part l_,­ upon Crow11

land

1\ ,·cr y ''alunUl e orQ, sui tabl e

fo r steel nH\nnfa.cture hy t: hc[lper acid

A good ore, hut the phos­ phorus is h igh

A series of scaUct·cd <·u.pa.ble of y ielding limitt!d quau tiLies of good oro

These orcs could on J,,· Ue

smelted in coujunction with other Ol' CS

A series of scattcr e(l c1.e­

posits

Theso are poor orcs, cont.nin­ in o- a lng·h percentage of tit..'lnic acid. No prcsc.:nt commercial value The bulk of this ore

co1;tains objectionable quanLili <'s of copper and but a vortion of

it (l ,COO,OOO tons? ) is

!-' Hita.bl c for usc in the

lllauufacturc of steel by the c-heaper acid proC'esscs .

Pi g- iron pt·oduccd from Lh ts Ore would be achnirably adapted for fou nd r) po5:cs, and would he smt·

able for t he mannf

protC8S

ores occi.ttTin g else" here ill the \\' Oriel. Splendid steel could be p rod need from

t he pig iron y it 1d ed lJ,,. Ot e An C\. C'e ll e n t ore. Suitable for steel m a nufacture Uy

acid

A fairly g ood brown . ore

This ore wou hl ,·aluable

fo r certain purposes to the ironmastcr on acc·oun t of t he it r·ontains

A seri es of small scattered de-posits

.\ series of dcposi C:-i

• :\litt.agong is distant from lllawarra coal-field about 30 mil e:s. .\railway lin e has been sun·eye d but not constructed

24

( 11tken at liielbourne.)

WEDNESDAY, 24TH SJ;;PTE.MBER, 1902.

%£embers )J?'esent :

The Hight Hon. 0. 0. KINGSTON in the Ohair ; Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. G. vV. Fuller,

1\Ir. L. E. Groom, lYir. J. vV. Kirwan,

Mr. S. Mauger, Mr. J . 0 . Watson.

William Henry Matthews, ·warden and Mining Inspector, South A ustralia, examined. 455. By the Cha-i1·mcm .-I take it that you have had a good deal of mining experience ?-Yes; extending over 35 years. 456. In Australia 7-Yes, throughout the States.

457. And you have given your particular attention to mining in South Australia 7- Y es; during the last few years. '!.58. Have you gi1ren much attention to the iron industry 7-I have seen a very large number of irou lode:; and deposits in South Australia, but I am afraid that we have not given so much attention to them as, probably, we ought to have done.

459. 'l'he Government Geologist in South Australia is Mr. Brown 7- Yes. 460. Where is he at present7-At Obadotte \Vaters; otherwise he would have been here. H e will not 1·eturn to Adelaide for another fortnight. 461. Have you formed any opinion with regard to the iron resources of South Australia 7-Yes; I hold a ve1·y strong opinion that we have immense quantities of ironstone in that State-millions and millions of tons. The hon Knob is one of the chief lodes that we have, and that crops up above the :; mrounding country to a height ranging from ±00 to GOO feet.

462. vVhere is that situated ?--About 40 miles from the Hummocks, or False Bay, on Spem:er's Gulf. 463. 'l'here is a railway from the Iron Knob to False Bay7-Yes. 464. And on the other side of the Gulf is Port Pirie 7.:_ Yes. 465. Where the smelting of Broken Hill ores is chiefly carried on ?.-Yes. 466. The iron ore from the Iron Knob is chiefly used by the Broken Hill Proprietary Co.?- Yes, as a flux for smelting purposes.

467. About two years ago the Broken Hill Propriet

469. And they are now running ore down from the Iron Knob to Bay, loading it into

ketches, aml conveying it across to Port Pirie, and using it for fluxing purposes t here 7-Y es. 470. Have you any particulars as to the quality of that ore 7-'l'he particulars I have are t hat the ore contains 65 per cent. of malleable iron, and 2 per cent. of silica. That is t he only determination I could obtain.

±71. Can you describe the general character of the ore ?-It is brown hematite chiefly. 472. Do you know whether or not the whole of the Iron }{nob has been taken up by the Broken Hill Proprietary Co.7-I could not say. They have a large number of leases, but I co uld not say whether these embrace the whole of the Knob.

473. You mean leases from the Crown ?-Yes. 4 7 4. Do you know the acreage of their holding 7-N o; but I believe t hat they hold about ten 40-acre leases. 475 . .And you say that the Iron Knob is a hill ranging in height from 400 to 600 fee t above t he surrounding country?-Yes.

476. Can you say that the hill is entirely composed of ironstone?-You must understand that I am giving you this description of the Iron Knob from the information I have received from Mr. Brown, Government Geologist, and others who have made official reports regarding it. The lode is about 80

feet wide and runs through the top of the hill, consequently the upper portion wo uld be abou t 100 fe et deep down to the level of the plain. The B roken Hill Propriet

478. By the You have some photographs of t he mine in your office?-Y es , I have

seen them. 479. Would you kindly send them to us 7-Yes. 480. Is there anything further you 'vould like to say with regard to t he description of that mine? --Not that I am aware of. ·

±81. Could you tell us anything as to the quantity of ore avail able at the Iron Knob 7--:r under­ >tand that no estimates have been made as to the quantity. I thought t hat the Proprietary Company ::night have some, but on application to them yesterday I found that they had none. They have such quantities of iron ore-millions of tons, and far more than they will ever require--that they

:lid not think it necessary to make an estimate of the quantity. '182. Is there anything further you would like to say with regard to this particul ar mine7- No, I do not know anything further, except that I might point out that the Broken Hill P roprietary Company have laid down a railway and a jetty at a cost of £ 80,000, for the purpose of securing this ore for use in their smelting operations. This shows that their conception of the supply must have been a· very liberal one. 'l'heir first estimate was that the work would cost from £90,000 to £100,000, but I believe t hat they ha1•e carried it out for the amount.

·l13:1. Can you anything as to Lhe suitability uf ore for iron smelting ?- I do not think

much better ore could be obtained. T do not th iHk there is anything to interfere with its use as flux in he smeltiug of lead ores, and its quality has been proved to that extent.

1451

25 " ' · H. l!Iatthews, 24th September , 1Q02.

. 484. I s that the only ore which t he B1·oken Hill Company use now for smelting purposes?-That I S the only ore they have now. Pri'or to the last six or seven months they used ores which were obtained

from all parts of the State-from Franklin Harbor, from Port Lincoln, Gawler, \Vill iamstown, Angaston, or anywhere else whence they co uld obtain ib. For the last six m o:1bhs, however, they have been using t he Iron knob ore exclusively. 485. Then may I take it that the Iron K nob is t he chief iron deposit of which you know in So utt,

o; it is one of the chief deposits- probably it stands slightly above some of the others.

There is the Oodla vVirra deposit, which I have visited many times. 48 6. \ IVhat is its si Luation with reference to the sea-board ?- It is aLout l G miles from Petersburo-, which I think is a bout 120 miles from Port Augusta. "'

48 7. I s it 1 G miles off t he railway line at Petersburg ?- No. It is 1 G miles along the line, and is within 3 miles of the railway. 488. \ Vhat is the distance of the Oodla \Virm deposit from Port Adebide ?--About 170 mileR. I t hink that P etersburg is about 172 or 173 mil es from Adehide.

48 9. By lJfr·. J oseph Cook - I s the1·e a ra ilway from P eter sburg to Lh o coast ?- The r is a line from P etersburg to Po-r t Augusta, t he latter pbce being a most excellen t port . 490. By the Chai1·man.- You say t hat the distance from Port Augu>;ta is about 120 miles, and from Port Adelaide 190 rnil es ?-Yes.

491. vVhat is the character of t he ore ?- It is brown ironstone. Til e cieposi t is known as the Oodla \Virra F lu x Mine. It is a very large lode formation, wh ich crops out above the surface, which dips in places, fo r over half a mile in length, a nd it can be t raced up for The lode is over 100 feet in

wid t h. In places there is a little int rusive rock showing, but the ore is generall y of a good class, and ca.n be cheaply and easil y raised . 492. Do you know what the output from the Iron Knob is ?- No; but I should judge from t he opemtions of t he Broken B ill Proprieta1·y Co. it would umount to about :),(100 tons per week.

493. I s the Oodl a vVirra F lu x mine being worked ?- Not at present. It been worked, and a ra ilway lin e to join the Government service been fo r about three miles to tho .mine,

which was worked to supply the Port Pirie smelters with flux prior to the opening up of t he Iron Knob. 494. By L. H. G1 ·omn. - That was up to about t h e end of 18 9o ?-Yes. vVhen they

commenced work at the Iron Knob t hey suspended operations at t he ot her mines. 495. By the Chctirman.- 'l'h at was because it was cheaper for t hem to til t hemselves of t he water caniage it was considerably cheaper.

496. Do you know a nything as to the quality of t he Oodla vVirra ore ?--It contnins about 50 to 54 per cent. of malleable iron, a nd about 7 to 10 per cent. of silica. 49 7. Then i t is not of such good quality the ore obt.ained from the hon Knob ?--No.

Generall y sp!laking, the iron ore in South Australia contains about 50 per cent. of m

499. Do you consider that t he South Austmlian iron resources bas-e been fully explored yet?­ No ; nothing like it. 500. The two mines you have men tioned are the chief iron deposits in Sout h Austmlia, but I suppose there a re Y es, there are others, which Mr. Brown has seen, and of which he has spoken very highly; such as Mount J agged. I have seen a very large number of deposits t hroughout the vVilliamstown and Angaston districts.

501. vVhere is Williamstown ?-About 25 or 30 miles from Adelaide. A ngaston would be a little further away. The iron lodes in t hese localities range from 3 to 15 fe et in width. 502. Are they being worked?- Y es; some of t hem are being worked in order to supply flux for t he Block 14 smelters at P ort Adelaide.

503. vVhat was t he l\Iount mine ?-That is a gold mine.

504. Can you tell us any more regarding the important iron deposits of South ?-Ab?ut eighteen months ago I was at Franklin Harbor, and I casuall y inspected t he deposits t here m connexwn with the discharge of ·my other duties. They are situated at from 3 to 7 miles from the coast,

and I think t hey would prove very important if t hey were opened up. The people who held t hem_ were at the time simply taking a few tons of ironstone here and t here and sending it away to Port Pu·1e for use a5 flux. . The same remarks apply t o t he iron deposits P ort Lincoln, wh1 ch al:so contam a

considerable amount

505. There are some large manganese deposits at Port Lincoln ?-Y es, but I could not specify them. The iron leases were taken up by poor men who were using their t eams to C[ll't the ore away tv the port, and were shipping it to P ort Pirie. . ,

506. By Jlb-. Fttller.- Are Franklin Harbor a nd Port Lmcoln good harbors 1-Yes. Port Lincoln is a magnificent harbor. . . _ . . . ,,

507. By the Chairman .- Have you told us all you know about.the pnnc1palJron depos1ts 1r: Sout h Australia or would you like to add anythinO' ?-I should like to men bon some of the places at >dlJ Ch our principal 'iron mine'l are situated. The Oo 0

dla '\Virnt mine I have already desc ribeJ. There are also

deposits at Wirrabee, Gladstone, and also the mines in the 'Willi amstown district. The Fn:ud

509. The one chiefly developed is t h e Iron Knob, the ore froru which is being used for fluxing Yes. .

510. Do you know if :my attempt has been made at iron Rmelting in Australm ?-Y.es . . An :tttempt was made at smelting ironstone at Mount Jagged, but t hat m vhe only case Wlth m my knowledge. I have a report here upon t hat matter which is derived from the ofricial reco rds of the Department.

W. H. Matthews, 2Hh l!J O:Z. 26

511. Putting it gencmlly, are you of opinion that the of iron co uld be successf ully

tmdcrtaken in South Australia 1-I think so, wi t h sli gh t assistance from the State until it was fairly sb.uted. 512. !f!J Air. Joseph would you get your coal from ?-Probably that would haYe to

collle from New South The iron ore cu

is aut .su itecl for making coke. It is useful foi' firing and for raising steam. We have a seam at Leigh's Creek feet thick.

515. I believe that scnm i;; of gl'eaL clcp Lh ?--The shaft at the mine extends to a depth of 200 feet, and the eomp

517. Did they strike

which is now being obtained. I have insp ected the mine down to the extent of the present

working.;,

I s i t too young by a few million yea.rs ?-Yes. '.!.'he

5] 9. Are they using this coal in Adelaide to any great extent now ?-No. They would use it, but owing to the long railwtty carriage, the price approa,clJ PS so closely to that of Newcastle coal, that people prefer to use the latter commodity. The Leigh's Creek coal makes more ash t han does the Newcastle product, but it maintains a lovely fire, and it was used in t he furnaces at t he mine with very auvan­ tagoo us result s.

520. How far is Creek from Port Augusta ?-I should think a,bout 170 miles. 521 . Wo ul d there b e any particular advantage or disadvant

mentioned, that of Oodla Wirm is situated furt.hest from a port . A ll t he rest are within reasonable· distance of the coast. 623. And they are connected by mil with the capital ?--Xot t hose on the coast, b ut you would not rcquit·e milways to connect them with Adelaide, so long as good ports were within easy reach.

52J. By lif1·. Jo seph Cook-I take it t hat you hnve not made a scientific analysis of the iron ores of which you have spoken ?--No, I have not. You must bea.r in mind t hat it was only last Friday t hat we recei vee! notice to appear before the committee. Had I known tlwee or four weeks ago t hat I should be called upon t o give evidence, I have visited t he Iron Knob so that I could have ve rified t he

information which I have given you, although I know that it is correct. 525. Do you know of any extensive tests t hat have been made in order to ascertain the qualities of the iron obtained from any of these deposits ?--No, none whatever. But I haYe no hesitation in Sctying that there are millions and mi llions of tons of ore in the deposits I have mentioned.

526. Yoi.1 SfLY t hat at one time smelting was carried on at Mount Jagged on a small sc·:tle, and it appears by the report.s that in their operations charcoal, which cost £2 per ton, was used. Have you any idea. how charcoal at £2 per ton wou lci compare wi th coal, at 5s. or 6s. per ton ?-I should say that one ton of coal would be worth two tons of charcoal for smel ting purposes. I should not think there ·would be any comparison. You remember, however, that we have to pay for coal in South

Austmlia something like 35s. per ton, as against 6s. per ton in Sydney. 527. Then what prospect do you think t here ·is of successfully establishing iron smelting works in South Australia with coal at 35s. per ton as compared with New South Wales wh ere coal is worth only from 5s. to 6s. per ton. You said t hat you though t the smelting of iron could be established with a

little assistaHce from t.he Governmen t ?-I do not profess to be a smelter, and I should prefer not to express any opinion with regnrcl to tho cost of pr-oducing iron. 528. By j)f1-. Kinuan.- In reference to your Htatement wi th regard to bringing coal from New South \Vales, I should like to know whether you would think it would be cheaper to bring the coal to the ore, or the ore to the coal ?-T think it wuu ld be cheaper to bring the coal to the iron ore-that is, supposing we conveyed the iron ore from say Oodl

529. By .Ah-. Fuller.-Which coal would you use ?-New So uth vVales coal. I may mention that we have irnmense quantities of limestone in South Australia. 530. B.'J lib·. Joseph Cook--vVould t,hose be in close proximi ty Lo t he iron ?-Yes, :;ome of them, more especially in t he Franklin Harbor and Port J_,incoln districts.

531. By fl.h. Ftdler. - Have you made an examination of t he limes tone deposits, with a view to ascertaining their extent ?-No, I am speaking generally, and I may sny that they are unlimited. Yorke's Peninsul a is composed almost entirely of limesto ne, and you can drive for miles and miles over masses of that material.

532. /Jy 1 111- . Joseph Cook. - Is it of good qmtlity ?- Yes. 53:3. By Jib·. Fnlle1·.-In regard to t he iron deposits of which you have spoken, do you know if any ttnalyscs have been made by the Government officials ?-No. I asked t he manager of the Port Pirie smelting works to giYe me the average of t'ne ana .yses of t he iron ores obtained from different parts of the State prior to t he commencement of operations at the Iron Knob, and h e replied by telegram stating that they contain ·

534. To what deposits would that refer ?-To deposits all over t he State. Prior to the commence­ ment of operations at the Iron Knob the Broken Hi!J Proprietai·y Company obtained iron ore wherever hey could get it. Every one knew t heir price, and t hey would purchase as much ore as co uld be

1453

27 \V, H. Utttthews, September, 1902

53:), JJy ,Jh. L . E . G?'UO /lt. - vVImt p ri ce diJ Lbey give 1-Frum to l-b. per ton, delive red at t l:e work:; . Some of the ore had to Le canied fu r long At Frauklin l-brbor and Port

Lutcolu It had to be conveyed for mil es ill drays, n.ml shipped in f\mall vessels to Port Pirie. !'i36. you sn.y anythiug as to the price paid fo r the ore at the deposits ?-It would not be

more tha,n from :2s. Gd. to 3s. per ton. 537. That wo uld be its price quarried and put. into the clmys ?- Yes. 5:38. Assuming that iron-s melting works wvn..: on the eastern coast of A ustmli;t,

would the various deposits you h tmli:t Le within easv dist

t hat the cost of quarry ing or 1·aisin g the ore wuu:d be

be in volved in the case of our ?-The Oo(ll n 'yed by mil fu r •• di,tanl'c uf 120 mil es, but in the Port Lincoln

5-10. By thr; Chai1·man.--Then there i;; the Iron Knob, which is within -lO mil es of < L port?-Yes. 5-11. By "lb-. L . B. Groom.--Are t hese the ouly mi11 cs you thi1tk ,,.e could drnw upo11 in the event of smelting works being established in New E:o uth ·wales ·?- -No. 1 thi11k that supplies woul(l he avnil able at ::'11ount Jagged, and at several other places close to Port Elliot and Victor Harbor.

5-U . You say you have not made mty proper geological l> urvey of the mines you Jta,-e mentioned? -No. 5-!3 . And yet you say that t here are so me millions of tons of oro available for in South

Austral ia or outside of it ?-Yo·, J am qu ite certain of i t . 5-!.t. Do you know if any of tl1eso ores htwe been tested with a vie w to their sui tability fo t· steel m

paid t hat attention to our iron deposits that we probably should htt\'e done. Some tests nmy have been made of which I am not aware. 545. By the Chainnan.-The supply of limestone in South Australia practictdly unlimited?­ Y es.

5-16 . Yorke's Peninsul a is a great place for it and t ho count1·y which li es between

Fmnklin H arbor and P ort Lincoln. I suppose that fully a third of di:;ta.nce you have to drive over nothing but rough limestone. In all parts of the State we have large deposits of limestone. 'l'hc Angaston and Gawler districts are very plentifully supplied with it. .

54 7. By Jlb-. Fulta.-You acknowledge t hat in connex ion with the cost of smelting iron yo u are not an expert and that you know little or nothing about I Yery much prefer not to give

evidence on that point. 548. You made t he statement that if a little assistance were given, you saw no reason why the iron industry should not he successfully established in South A nstmlitL. How could you speak upon that point unless you were an expert ?- -I have calculated it out to my own satisfaction, although por'libly yo u might not agree with my deductions. I do not consider myself wfliciently an expert to renrler it desirable that my opinion should he published.

Harper Twelvetrees, Government Geologist and Chief Inspector of l\I.ines in

Tasmania, examined.

5-!9 . By the Chai1'man. - How long have you occupied youi· present position ?-About three 550. And I suppose th­ mania I have b een twelve years in that Sta.te.

Tasmania 1-Y C:5, I am at I haYe uot yet completed

55 1. \Vhat we desire is information co ncerning the iron resou1·ces of present eng;tged in an examination of the various iron deposits in t hat State. the work, but I know the Blythe River deposit , which is the principal one. 552. That is the principal one with which you are acqua,intecl that is t he largrst deposit in Tasmania t hat I know of.

553. ·where is it situated ?-On the Blythe River, ncar Bumie. 55±. H ow many miles is it from Bumie ?-About 11 miles . 555. I s t here good depth of water at Burnie ?-Oh, yes. There is suffic ient to Jloat in ln.rge steamers of I should say fully l, 700 to 2,000 tons.

556. Could such a vessel O'et aloncrside t.he wharf ?-Y es, at the end of the wharf. 557. By :If?· . Joseph where the ore wo uld have to be shipped if it were sent to

N ew South \Vales?-Yes, I do not know the precise point at which the shipment ,,·ould take placr, Lut it would probably he inside the the stone jetty which built in to the sen .

558. And you say miles from. the mme Is the nearest polllt. at wluch t he sh 1pn;e nt of ure · co ul d take place ?-Yes, a tramway would have t o be constructed _for ." distance of G} mile;; o connect with the existing railwn.y line, which would coYer the other fhe mtlc:; mto Bm·mc. 559. By the C:hetinnetn. -- Coulcl you giYe us particu lar:; as to tho extent n_ nd Yaluc of '!1C my the

River mine is a deposi t of ore which bas been cut through Ly the Blythe R1ve1·. 560. H ave you made any report upon it 1-Yc:;; I lmYe it here. It was wri tteH on the 30tlt J anuary, 1901- [Repo?'t pr-od1wed.l 561. This repo rt contains t he rcsull;; of your resea,rch es up to tltat dcL to ?-Yes.

,V, H. September, lOOt. 28

562. H ave you maue any further examinat ion in tl1e meantime?- Jo. 563. Then this report will give us all the information at your di,;posal up to the present ?-Yes. N othing has been done since that report wa s written subsequent to Mr. Darby's viHit. 56 4. H ave you anything to add to the report 1-No.

565. JJy J1h. L . t:. Groom - Does i t contain analyses of the ote ?.....,.Y es. fi66. By Jlr. J!cmJe1·.-The inquiries you arc now making r ela.te to new fi elds?-Y es . 56 7. By the Cluti 1'1nan.-I-la ve you sa,tisfied yourself as to the possi bility of the successfu l e3 tablishment of t he iron iiHILJ stry iu Australin, so far as ou r natmal reso urces are concerned ?-I think

th:tt t he Blythe Jti ver ore is of Yery desirabl e pu rity, and that it exist s in sufficient quantities to supply OUL' requ irem ents for i ron m:tHufactures for m;my yenrs. From the water level upwards, it is est imated

t hat the d8po>it con ta ius from 17,000,000 to 23,000, 000 tous of marketable ore. I adopt 17,000,000 tons as the lowe: ->t e,; timate, :tnd 23,000,000 Lons a fair maxi mum. There is every reason to belie,·e that t he s upplies of ore will extend to an indcfi11ite depth below the watd level. 5G8. By Mr. yo u made au es timate of the quantity ?-Y es; yo u will find it

given ill t he rcpOL't. 569. By the Ch:til·nutlt. - \Yhat i3 the average quality of the ore ?- 1t chiefly reel hematite. ;} /0. And what t l10 percentage of metallic iron 1-F,. om 60 to 64 per cent . It ough t to

average so mething more thnn GO p er cent. There should b :J no difficu lty in maintaining such an avera.ge. 571. \Vou lcl there be 17 ,000,000 up to t hat Instead of estimating the

quantity available at 34,000,000 ton;;, I have tn,k en 17,000,000 tons as t he quanti ty, and ha ve allowed for wnste and silicious rock. The avemge metallic iron coutcnts of the ore prouu ced in the mine should b e br tween GO and 6+ p er cent., but it impossible, unless extensive works a re carried on, to average the ore to a unit.

57 2. How arc you situatvd fo1· of limestone ?- I do not kne w cx:tctly where they would

obtain the li mestone, but I Hhould think the 11earest woul d be at the L even H.ivel'. T he from

B urnie to the mouth of t he Leven H.ive r would be about 12 miles, and the deposi t is situated about 5 or 6 miles up the ri ve r. There is another of limestone near Devouport.

Putting it broadly, clo you think t hat a sufficient quantity of limestone is readily available

near the Blythe Tti ve r iron mine?- I think they would be able to procure pleuty of limestone. 574. lfy il/1·. .F1tller. - H ave yo u examined the limes tone deposits yourlSelf 1-Yes, T here is plenty of limestone, but there might be some difficulty in deciding within wha,t radius it could be obtained.

575. Have you exa mined the deposits with a view to a;;certaining their extent ?-No. 576. Ry the U!winnan.- l!ow would yo u mauagc a bout coal ?-That would have to be imported. 577. lly Jlfr. J oseph Cook--Or t he orcs would have to be taken to t he cmtl ?-Yes. 578. By the \ Vhich course would you fa Your ?- I fa vo ur the conveying of the iron to

the coal. That found to be the best plan in most parts of the world. 579. You hav.e give n full considemtion to t hat point?- J am perfeetly satisfied in my own mind; unless .there are some conditions of whi ch I a m ignoraut. 580. Do you contemplate that t he iron ore should be t<"tken to some other part of Tasmania, or to some other State, in order to obtain coal ?-To so me other State.

58 1. By .ilb-. li!Jctuge1·. - You have no coal in Tasmania of a character suitable for iron smelt ing p urposes ?-No, not coking coal. It has never entered my mind to 0onside1· the question of taking t he coal to the iron. 'l'hat seems to me to be ou t of the qu estion. 582, By the Chainnan.-As to the assays of which you give the res ults in your report; were

t hey ma,de by yourself, or under your supervision ?-The samples were taken by me, but t he analyses were made by the Tasmanian Government analyst, J'lh. Ward. 583. I s there any other iron deposit in Ta smania wh ich approaches that at the Blythe River as regards the possibilitie:o of successful development ?-There is the field wh ich I am now examining near Beaconsfield.

584. How f:ctr is t hat fro m a seaport ?- A bout 6 miles. There is a g roup of deposits wi th in about 6 or 7 mil es of the port. 585 . By _ 1f1·. J oseph Coole. - ·w hat do you call t hem ?-They are called t he A nderson's Creek mines. 586. By the Chai1·man. - Those are t he su bj ec t of investigation by yo u at present?- Yes.

58 7. As regards t he Blythe H.iver deposit, do you t hink that you have made n,ll the i nquiries necessary to enable yo u to express a final opinion on the subject?- I sh all cer tainly take another opportunity of Yisiting t hat deposit in conj unction with my present investigations; but I do not an tici­ pate that there will be anything fresh to report. The only thing I wish to satisfy myself about is the origin of the u<>posit. \Ve have no reason to suppcso that it wi ll go down into sulphide lodes, as there are no sulphides in it; but so many of t he other deposit.s of iron in Tasmania arc connected with eruptions or of eruptive rock, notably granite, that it is curious that this should be an excep­

t ion. There is no eruptive rock nearer than the mouth of t he Blythe R iver. 588. As to the other mines which are unl:er examination, are you yet in a position to express an opinion as to t heir pro:·pects ?- That would b e a very difficult question. There is a gt·oup of mines in the Beaconsfield Jistrict near Anderso n's Cree k, whd1 I shonld say would contain not more t han 5,000,000 tons, and perhaps not, less than 3, 000,000 t ons of iron ore. Some of th is ore is contaminated with clirome. In 1875 t hey were wo rk ed by a co mp n,ny which did not succeed in producing soft grey pig n1· anY pig of unifurm qu a li ty, a nd t he preilence of the chrome finally caused them to shut do wn.

5t>!:J. But these particular a rc unde 1· your nuLi0e at present with a view to enable you to fo rm a decided opin ion?- 590 . . ·\.n cl do you feel justified at present in an opini on to the probability of their

suc cess or othcrwisr ?- I am in corre. ->pomlencc with gcu Llemen in Enghtncl nt present regarding that l do no t know of any simila r ore hn,v ing been worked ;; uccessfu lly in any part of the world.

'J'b cre arc ::;im ilnr deposits in New Caledonia, but they arC' left unworked.

29

1455

W. H. Twelvetrees, 24th September, 1902.

59 1. By ilh. TVatson.-Does the chrome constitute theonl v difficult factod - Yes. There is from 3 to 9 per cent. of chrome, but the wiLy out of t he difficulty at present seems to be to blend t hese

ores with others. One feature of group of i;; t ha t some of the orcs do not contain chrome,

a nd these migh t be useful for blcndi1rg with t he chrome orcs so as to <..lrown out the objcctionuble clement. 592. By the Chainnan.- 'l'he re ure other deposits besides those you mcntione <.J ?- Yes, but most of them are too fa r inhud to be of any usc at prest'nt. Th ere a deposit of close to

Zeehan, rmd there is a huge deposit on the Meredi t h Hiver, which is suitl to be the lurgcst in t he State. It is, however, assoc:iated with ;;u l phiJes. I could not tell you t he extent of de]Josit. Then there is the Beaconsfield group, the Penguin mine:;, and an intermediate deposit on t he lliver Don. They are now taking ironfrorn the Penguin deposit for fluxing purposes at Cockle Creek.

593. You attnch the grcn,te;;t importance to the Northern mines?- Yes; to the Blythe P-ivot· first;· the P enguin, subsidiary to the Blythe H.iYer, < tnd the Beaconsfield group. The other deposits are not so favorab ly situated. G9·1. I take it that T::u;mania is not yet fully t>xplored so far as its mineral resources are

conce rn ed ?-No. · I will leave wit h the committee so me lllaps which I ha1·c b·ough t wit h me, und which may be of some assistance. 595. Have you •tny acquaintance with the i ron resources of t he other Shttcs ?--'\o. 596. Have you anything you would like t o t ell us, apart from what is contained in ycur report,

with regard to the possibilities of utilizing the Tannanian iron orcs ?-- I think my rrport is

very complete. I may say t ha t I have been looking up the history of the Beacomdleld deposits. I find that the firbt iron ore was from tlr c wes t arm, in 1805, Ly Colonel Paterson, who

shipped it to New South \Yales in the J,ady .Nelson on her return voyage after bringing stores from Port Jackson. H e took with him sevet·al tons of this ore. These ores were reported on by M t·.

Charles Gould, t he 'l'asnmnia n geologist, in 1 eGG , and examined in 187:3 Ly M t·. Just, who induced Melbourne capitalists to float the Tasmn,man Charcoal Jrcn Company, with a capital of £80,000. They began to smelt ores on a small scale, mabng charcoal iron by the direct 'l'Ley built works and

a jetty, to enable them to cany on their Tl: e dircetors were led to adopt a new furnace

in vented by a Mr. Harriso n, in which gas was to be m;ed for the reduction of the ore, and t he first stone of this new funmcc wa;; bid in 1872. lt proved tL fu il m e, although it was construct ed under the vision of the inY entol'. The company spent .£10,000 or £ 12,000 in preliminary work, and then the concern was fl oated

Don. T hey made about 2:30 or 250 tons.of pig weekly, an.d they sold a good deal of it in Mt'lbourne at .£6 lOs. per tou. ·when the first samples of ore were analysed, on ly _ small quantities of chrome were noticed. One analysis gave a trace only, another l per cent., and another 1-,t- per cent. ; but when the furnaces got thoroughly to work they found that the ore contr,ined as high as from 2 to l 0 per cent. of

chrom ':l. A considerable quantity of the chrome pig was used for making £hees for > :h :. mpers. 'lbe com pany made a small quantity of soft grey iron " -hich they sold in Melbourne at .£5 Gs. pe1· ton, and the experts to that city continued regularly tmtil time in 1877, alt hough the quality cf the product was very irregular, much of it being too white ar: d hard. At tlre beginning of August the company lra d 4,000 or 5,000 tons of this pig awaiting ''hipment and they could not find a market for it. They had to admit the of fi nding a mark et for this iron outside Australia, a1'd in the end they resolved to

suspend operations for an indefinite period. ExFeriments made in England were unfavorable to the chrome iron. There is other iron in the neighbourhood which is devoid of chrome. Although both classes of iron are derived from the same source they traverse different kinds of reeks-the cbnn:e is derived from the serpentine rock. It is very difficult to form an estimate of the quantity of the chrome iron

deposits, becauHe a good deal of it is mixed with clay and rock, so that when you se e a hill with ore at t he bottom and ore a t the top yo u cannot say whether it continu es right through. StiJl, I should think there would be between 1,000,000 and 2,000,000 t ons. Another deposit in the san;c was worked in 1875 by the Tama r -Hematite I ron Company, wh ich made wmc 600 tons of good pig which was stated by t hose who used i t in Melbourne Lo be superior to the ordinary Scotch pi g. Some of Ori s iron was se r:t to Glasgow. Two hundred tons of it were sold at .£6 7s. 6d., and the report on that prcel wa s that .1t was of good quality but rat her rough . It was estimated that pig iron could be prcdu ccd tmd landed m London at from .£4 to £4 lOs. per ton .

597. By Jlf.r . TVaison. - Why did they d ose down ?-I bclieYe the real reason was that the works were on too small a scale to pro\'e _

598. By llf?-. 1Jfange1·.- vVas any Government aid granted to the company ?-l\ o. l t :ms a purely private en terprise . I n l t)75 the manager, l'l'[r. Swift, aunounced the temporary of t hese

wo rks, tmd stated that they had fulfilled t heir design, which to test the quality of the ,ore, and that it was intended to reconstruct the co mpany upon a larger basts and t>xtend opcratrom. Shortly wards, however, he died, and t hat put an end to the whole thmg. . _

599. JJy Jib ·. Watwn.-Dicl t he company obtain thC'ir coal from New South \Vales ?-No. They used cha rcoal. GOO. Ry 1lh. Jlfcmyer .-J-rn,ye you any idea of Lhc number of men they em ployed ?-No. The

from which I

601. By Jh. Ji'1dle1 ·. - Have you any idC'a of t he pt·ice they pai rl for their chan ;oal but I

t hink it should not be any greater tlmn Umt, now ruling. " . . .

602. \ Vhat is the present price of d ra ;·ccrr11-A t LCc han the [> l'l CC' rmJ I S per GO!b . bag There is another dC'posit in the l3raconsficlcl di striet which was worked fur so n;e tim C' b\· \.he Ilfracc mbe I ron Co. They started operations on a cl cpo;;it 7 1 .1.1i lcs from the water's edge. 'l'h ey e:·ccted Llast furnaces, but I neve r heard that t hey produced any 1ron. It 1s stated that t hey bad an mcompetent manager, who allowed tho fu rnaces to become choked, and the whole enterprise fail ed . Mr. Gou ld

,V, H. Twelvetrees, 24th September, JOOi. :30

estimated t lmt in t hat deposit there was, above the water level, 350,000 tons of rich ore containing f rom !'55 to 60 per cent of metallic i1·on. There is another la rge deposit next to t his callert Barnes' paddock.

This, T think, is t he lnrgest of the whol e of tha,t group, but I have not yet examined it. 60;3. lJy .lfr. Watson.- Can you say whet her those deposits arc held as freeholds, or under lease from the Go,·cnnnent ?-Sonw of them are freeholds,

G05. lJ y the

Anderson's Creek

1mder lease, hu t tho company may ha ve made further purclwscs recently. The deposit s at P enguin are partly freehold , and that which iH noiv being worked is on private property. 607 . Ry the C'hai 1·man.- I s t he Blythe H.i ver leasehold held under mining Y es, under

the Mining Act. The leases cannot be held indE'fini tely, but they ttro subject to t he working cond i tions of the Mining Act, although protection can he obtained. 608. Th en a good many effo rts have been made to establish t he iron industry in 'l.'asmania, but they have not been attended with any great success?- Yes. The three efforts I have mentioned have been made, and I believe thnt in the old da,y;; there was a furnace ncar Hobart.

609. I s there an iron mine down t here is so me iron ore on t he east side of the Derwent.

GlO . B ut knowing what you do, are you very sanguine as to the success t hat would attend an effort to establish the iron industry in 'l.'asmania ?-I am very sanguine with regard to the Blythe l-tivcr deposits, and I am hopeful that we shall be able to do so mething with tl1ose at Beaconsfie ld . 611. You are of opinion that 'l.'asmania pos'lesses large dep oc; its of ore .which arc cap:tble of being worked at a. profit under favorable conditions ?-Yes. I think we co uld put t he 13lythe Hiver ore into the ships at Burnie at a cost of about 4s. per ton.

612. Is that likely to be done t Government aid ?-That is a question for the capitalists to consider. 613. By ;1fr-. Fnllm·.- You t hink that the capitalists will not undertake t he wo rk without Government aid ?-I think it is a case in wh ich Government aid might be very properly extended.

614. By the Uhai1·man.--You. think t hnt the Blythe Hiver ore could be plnced on board ship at a cost of a bout 4s. per ton ?-Y es, t he expense might be still lower. 615. That wou ld be the cost of mining and sh ippi ng, and wo uld not allow for any profit or royalty to tho owners of t he ore ?-Yes.

616. By ;1!1·. L. E. G'1 ·oom.-In Mr. Jaquet's evidence, h e said he had received information from official sources witl: respect to the iron ores of Tasmania, and he referred in his report to t he siliceous contents, ranging from 1·6 to 34·2 per cent. H e said that t hat statement, however, did not contain very definite information. Can you tell us more definitely the extent to which silica prevails in your ores?­ '!.' he case in which the silica contents were given at 34·2 was exceptional, and in my repor t I explain that- " The only instance in which I think I may have included too high a proportion of siliceo us matter is the stone from the upper tunnel. Si liceous ore is only met wit h lo cally in that adit, and has, I think, augmented the average silic>t contents unduly."

G 17 . Do yo u think tha t. the average siliceous contents· of the Blythe R iver ore is below t hat which would render it too impure for the purposes of manuf>tcturing steel and i ron ?-I do not t hink that the silica contents of the Blythe Hiver ore would interfere with its suitability for manufacturing purposes. There are, of course, very siliceous ores, but I do not consider 9 per cent. too high.

6 18. lVIr. Jaquet says t he great majority of iron or es contain from 3 to 15 per cent. of silica. These a re ores that are used for commercial purpose3. vVo uld you ngree with Yes. Gl9. Have you any knowl edge regarding t he methods employed in t he production of steel I have no knowledge of steel making.

620. H ave you any knowledge of the value of iron ores containing phosphorus ?-The average contents of the Cumberland ore is 0·2 per cent. In t he Uni ted St ntes the presence of 0·01

per cent. phosphorus to one unit of iron used to be allowable, but now ores arc not accepted as Bessemer ores if they contain more than 0·007 5 per cent. G2l. Can yo u t ell us whether ores containing a high percentage of phosphorus can be used for i ron manufacture by modern processes ?-Yes, if t he basic process is employed, which eliminates t he impurities. The basic process, with iron low in C'1rbon, g ives a good mild steel. The Blythe Hiver ore is suitable for the acid p ro cess, because the phosphor ic contents do not exceed 0 ·04. At one point, namely,

the Purple Cliffs, on the south side of the ri vcr, the phosphoric contents of the ore are greater, amounting to 0·09 per cent., and I should recommend t hat f urther samples should be t aken f rom t hat poin t to see whether that high percentage is only exceptional. 622. You consider t hat the Blythe Hiver ore is rich ?- Yes.

623. Mr. Jaquet refers to 50 t o 70 per cent. of iron being contained in rich ores ?-The Blythe River ores are rich hematite ores. Magnetite deposits could carry a higher percentage, and Mr. J aquet may ave included those in his statement. There is a deposit of magnetite on t he west coast of Tasmania. 624. H ave you compared the Blythe River ores with t hose obtained from t he Lake S uperior mines ?- I do not remember whether I did so in my report. I believe the Lake Superior ores cal'ry about 60 per cent. of metallic iron.

62.5 . Do you think the Blythe Rivr:r ores compare with the average ores now being used for manufacturing at P ittsburg in the United States ?-Yes, I t hink so . B ut perhaps a closer parallel would be afforded by the hematite ores of Cumberland. 626. Do you t hink that on t he whole steel manufact ured f rom tho ore produced at Blythe Itiver would compare wit h the American steel manufactured at P ittsburg from t he oro obtained at Lake Superior '!-On the whole I sh ould so; I do not see any reason why i t sh ould n ot. Of co urse t hey have special vat·ieties of ore t here which are very low in phosphorus, to which ours wo ulJ be i nferior. The contents of tl10 Lake Superior ores vary from 0 ·007 to 0·079.

31

1451

W. H. Twe\vett·ees, September, lnOi.

G27. On the whole, however, you think that a good marketable nrticle could be pt·oducC'rl. from the Blythe River ore ?-I do uot t hink we need fear co mparison with any part of thE' world far as our iron re;:;otu·ces are concerned. ·

628. Have you considered the Bilbao in Spain, and the steel mannfactu reel from them

at Middlosbrough do not why we shoulil not compare with them. The pho;;plwrus contents of t he ore ol.Jt

-No. Ha.ve you considered the requirements of the market :v-; rcga.rd;; iron ;mel steel 7

630. Do you think you cn.n definitely S

G3 1. Mr. J aquet says t hat he considers that t.he N cw f.Jouth Wales ore would compare with t hat used at Pittsburg. Do you

G33 . I understand t hat the best steel produced from Bilba.o orcH 1--Y but Lhat is tv

be obtained in limited quantities now, and the supply will soon come to an end. ·

63 11. H ave you considered the Australian dcma.nd for iron ?-No; but I. know that last year the imports of iron mn,nufactures into TtLsmania were valued a.t .£375,000. 635. Coyhlan estima.tes that in 1898 470,000 tons of iron in pig and in a maHufacturc

sufficient demand. t-36. You a re satisfied as regards the extent of our deposits. Mr. J a.quet estim:1.tcs t.hat we ha,Ye sufficient iron ore to ln.st us for at least a, century think the iron obtain:tble :1t Blythe Hi1·cr would be suffic ient to meet all the dema.nds in A ustralia for the next GO years.

637. Ass uming that we man ufacture everything we require here, the demand for iron would amou nt to 4 70,000 tons per annum . Allowing fo r a. reasonable increase in consumption, do you Lh ink there is a .sufficient quantity of ore at Blythe R iver· to supply the needs of Australia for GO years?-Y cs. \Ve have 25,000,000 tons there, and I think it is safe to a.ssumc tha.t it will go down.

638. What do you think would be n. fair estimate to make ?-It would last for at least 50 years. 639. By Jlh. Why do you say that you can safely assume that the ore will go down?­

Because it seems to be interbedded with the slatei'J and sandstones. These shLtes and sandstones go down, because they are part of gign.ntic fold s, and the iron will go down with them. It is not in the form of a lode which will pinch. 640. \ Vith regard to some of our deposits we are told that they arc merely surface shO\Ys, and

will soon work out; but I understand that you are satisfied that the Blythe deposit will continue down ?-Yes. 64 1. You have not tested it at all, but as a gcologiBt you think it is li kely that tbe iron will con­ t inue down below the wa.ter level ?-Yes.

G42. By Mr. Watson .-Do you think the character of the ore is likely to alted-N o. 643 . In some cases the i ron runs into sulphides ?-Yes. And if I had found any traces of sulphides in the ore n.t Blythe River, I might have been afra.id tha.t tha.t would happen there. 644. Has any work been done below the water level ?-No.

645. Uy Jl[r. Joseph Cook .- 'What have they done at Blythe River ?-They haYe worked from the level of the river into the face of t he h ill, which rises to a height of from 500 to 700 feet. 646. By Jlh. Fuller.- You say that you are sanguine as to the possibilities of the Blythe River, and you also tell us th:tt ore can be placed on board ship at 4s. t on. You further agree thn.t the

ore shou ld be canied to t he coal 647. I presume that yom· knowledge as a geologist is not confined to Tasmania , and, from 11 geological point of view, in regard to the poRition of the iron depo:;its and the where wo uld you say the iron could be most successfully esbblishcd ?-I do not t lnnk tha.t JS

qui te a fair qu estion. . .

G4 8. 'rhat is a. very plain question. \Ve have our coal-fields and our 1ron depos1ts. The coal deposits must not be very far from the iron deposits 7-No. . . .

649 . Ta.king the relative geological position of our coa.l-ficld fl and our 1ron depos1ts, wh1ch be the best place to est:tblish works for the development of our iron beds ?-I am not aC<]Ullmted w1th the iron beds of Australia. 650. Do I understand tha.t your knowledge of the iron beds of the Commonll'ealth is confined to

'l'asmania ?-Yes. I understand nothing beyond that which rcla.tcs to Tasmania. G51. Are you acquainted with the sea-board of New South 662. I presume you know the situation of Bull.i ?-1Ju3. And tha.t you know that there arc extensJYO con.l-fields t.hel'e 7-Yes: . .

G54. A re you aware that, as coke-making coal, that obtamed :tt l3ulh 1s the bf'st fo1· purposes in the world ?-Yes. 1 believe i t is better than the coal. . . ,

G55. Do you know anything about the coal depos1ts at L1thgow, about 1.30 mllcs from Sydnf'y, on the W estern railway line ?-No. . . .

. 656. ComparinO' Litho·ow and the Illawn,tTn. dtstnct as places smtable 1.01' the manufacture of iron from the Blythe River which do you thi11k would be the best ?-:-I.t stands to rca8on so f:tJ' as coal is concerned Bulli beincr ou the sea-coast, would occupy a pos1t10n of greater ad,·anbtgc than wou ld Litho-ow i30 miles inln.nd ; but I do not think that is < Jui te n faie ([Ues tion to ask me:.

G57 'was careful to put it as from a geological point uf Yiew ?-1'11(' nearer you cn.n briii•r the uoa.l to the iron ore, or vice ve1'S(1, the better.

32

(Taken at M elbou1·ne.) THURSDAY, 25TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Jfembm·s present :

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGS TON in the Chair ; ::V1r. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Mauger,

1\fr. l <'uller, Mr. McCay,

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. \Vatkins,

Mr. K irwan, I Mr. vVatson.

vVillia m H arper Twelvetreos, further examined.

J'h e JT'itn ess.-I like to amend my evidence of yesterday in respect of the total term

during which the J3ly the RiYor deposits co uld hold out upon the basis of the production of 500,000 tons of metal annually. I said thu.t I thought t hey wou ld continue to supply that quantity for 50 years. That, however, w:ts really an estimate of the quantity of oro available, and not of t he metal contents. The producti,·e Yal ne of t ho deposit in pig iron on a maximum of 25,000,000 t ons, containing GO per

cont. of metal, wou ld be 15,000,000 tom. That wo uld be suffi cient to meet the demand of t he Common­ wealth for 500,000 tons annua!J y for 30 years. These figures are based upon t he Ol'e contents of the deposit down to the rive1· level. If t he deposit is estimnted at 20,000,000 tons, which is a sober estimate, and one which, I think, is understated- especially in view of t he fact that its limits, both in length and breadth, haYe not been ascertained, and t he probable extension of it , have been omitted from the calculation-it would be equal to supplying 500,000 tons of metal annually for 24 years. But what I wish to point out is that I do not t hi nk it is likely that the owners will be able, at any rate, for some ye::Lrs, to transpo rt more than 900 or 1, 000 tons of oro a. day, or 250,000 to 300,000 tons per year. That qtmntity would repre;,;ent 150,000 or 180,000 tons of pig iron . Even this output could only be reached by the rail way transport and tl)e shipping arrangements on the mos t modern lines,

::Lnd after everything had been got into smooth work ing order. At first the transp01·t is likely to be considerably less. · On that sc::Lle of working t he industry could be maintained for 60 ye::Lrs, and if the yea rly expo1tation were le$S the totul t erm would be proportionately prolon ged. I wish to put in some fol'mer reports - one by Mr. Montgomery in 18 94 on the iron ore at the Blythe River, and another by him in 1895 containing mention of t he Penguin iron ore deposits ; likewise a report in 1898 by the late l\h. Harcourt Smith, ·who was t hen Govemrnent geologist of Tasmania, also dealing wit h the P enguin hem atite deposits. ·

----William Jamieson, examined. 658. By the Chainnan.-I t hink t hat you are the Chairman of Directors of t he Blythe R iver Iron Mines Limited ?-Y es. G59. And you have had considerable experience in mining one way and another for a number of yo:trs ?-For abou t twenty years. · 6GO. Have you had under consideration t he Uovernment proposals in connexion with granting a bonus fo r the iron industry?-Yes. 6 61. You have seen the Bill, of course ?-Y es. 662. And you contemplate taking action if possible ?-That is so. 66:3. Have you formed any opinion as to whether you could start the industry if the Bonus Bill we1·e passecl 1-Y es, I have. We have formed a very strong opinion upon the matter in conjunction with people in the old country. 664. What is your opinion ?-That, if tbe Bill were passed, we should be able to create a company which would provide the necessm-y capital for t he development of t he Blythe River deposits, and the erection of machinery and plant. GG5 . Is it in connexion with any particular mine that you have formed that opinion 1-Y es; it is in connexion with the Blythe River iron mine of Tw n expert from Great Britain, who reported upon the whole business. From him we have obtained estimates of the cost, not only of t he erection of works in Tasmania, but ::Llso ::Lt Sydney. 66'7 . Have yo u formed an opinion as to what part of the industry you would conduct in each place e haYe concluded that tho operations must be co nd'Ucted either in Tasmania or N ew South W::Lles. 668. vVou ld you conduct all t he operations in one State1-The opinion is that all the reduction wol'lcs wou ld have to be done in one State. That is to say, if we selec ted New South \Vales the reduction works wou ld haYe to be established t here, but, of course, it entirely depends upon whether it is cheaper to transmit tho coal to the ore or the ore to t he coal. That is determined t o a large extent by locality and t he Slll'rou nding ci rcumstances. Upon tho whole, _ the opinion is t hat N ew South Wales is the bes t St::Lte in which to start t ho industry. 669. ' Vo uld you transport the ore from Tasmania to New South ·wales ?-Y es. 6'7 0. Have you formed any opinion as to the expenditure which would be necessary under the circumstances ?-Yes. Of course, my opinion is based entirely upon the es timate of Mr. Darby, who came out from England specially to report upon this matter. Mr. Darby is a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers, managing director of the "Brymbo" Steel vVorks in England. H e was specially; selected to make t his r·eport by men who we re prepared to invest a large amount of money in t he en ter-prise. G 71. ·w here is M r. Darby at present ?-In England. I have in my possession a det::Liled sta te­ment of all the machinery and plant that would be required to start the industry, and t here is a t::Lbulated stat ement at the end of it, of whi ch I can furnish the committee \\'ith a copy.

33

\V. Jamieson, .25th September, 1902.

672. Of course, we should like as full information as you can possibly give to us upon this matter ; but, at the same time, we recognise that some of your information may be of a private character, wh ich you would prefer not to reveal. Your wishe:; in that connex.ion will be respected. I s the paper which I hold in my hand a summary of the outlay required to start t he industry?- Ye3; but I have here the details of all the different portions oft .e phtnt necessary, and t 11 e cost of e11ch. I may mention that Mr.

Darby's estimate is for a plant that would be as up-to-date as any in the world. G73 . This summary shows a contemplated expenditure of £1, 109,000 that amount

covers all expenditure connected with the starting of works capable of an output of 150,000 tons per annum. I a m in possession, also, 0f t bc details of the proposed method of laying out the mine. The sidings, approaches , and alllo1tding docks at B urnie would cost £26,649 . Specially-constructed steamers, suitable for carrying heavy materird, such as ore and coal, would cost £ 122,000. An amount of £ 45, 137

is set down for wharf and unloading arrangement,; at Sydney. There is a site near Sydney, of which we have acquired the right of purchase, and upon which we have paid a deposit. It was e3timated that the cost of reclaiming it a nd erecting wh ft rves would be about £45,137. 674. By M1·. J oseph Cook.-vVhere is that Upon the Parramatta Ri vc r, opposite R yde.

Coal bins, washery, and coke ovens would cost £ 106,7 96; ore and coke bins, blast furnaces and a uxiliary plant, £ 215,182. I may here mention that Mr. Darby is one of the greatest experts upon coke-making in Great Britain. The cost of the hot metal mixer and open hearth Rteel plant is estimated at £133,172; the mills auxiliary plant at £ 175,934; whilst the general expenses a l'e set down at £57, 706. These

estimates were arrived at after a careful survey of the g round. They certainly ough t to be very correct, as they were obtained from thoroughly good data. Of co urse, in co nnexion with t he proposed co mpany it would be necessary to provide a big work ing capital, a nd accordingly Mr. Darby allows £160,000 for the expenditme of £10,000 a week for four months before he expects the company to derive any return.

The cost of finishing the rail way to the mine is estimated at about £50,000. That es timate was obtained from our ow n eng ineer's report, and the sum mentioned would be sufficient to construct the line and to provide rolling-stock as well. Of course, it is a very close estimate. 675. By the Chctinnan.--You have taken every care to obtain accurate estimates of the ou tlay involved

676. If t he Bonus Bill were passed immediately, have you any d oubt that you could undertake this work ?-I had no t the smallest shadow of a doubt about it a few months ago, but at the present momen t .all I can tell the committee is that the people with whom we were negotiating have not with­ drawn their offer, and, as far as we know from our agent at home, we occupy exactly the same position

to-day as we did previously. Of course, they are naturally dissatisfi ed with the delay that has occ urred. W e led t hem to believe that the Bonus Bill wou ld become law much ear·lier than this. '\Ve had every­ thing in readiness and the money necessary, for the undertaking had been guaranteed in London. 677. By llfro Jo seph Cook. - What is the date of that r eport 1-It is dated 30th F ebruary,

1901. 678. By the Chairman.-Do you attach much import unce t o the bonus course I do . To :some extent it assures any wo rks which may be est.ablished and which produce a good article against initial loss . It must be remembered that the establishm ent of large iron works in a new country is, after all, a very experimental undertaking, and that very often mi8takes a re made which cannot be foreseen.

Mr. Darby at first proposed t hat we should erect furnaces capable of t reating 500 tons per day. In this connexion it is well to remember that it would never do to depend upon one furn ace we to allow. the only which a, mine possessed to run down. T hese furnaces a re very often 80 or 90 feet h1 gh, and are bnck­

lined inside. At any time an accident might happe-:1, and to repair it wo uld cost an immense sum. Very fre'q uently mistakes do occur in the initial 8tages o( 'the operation of big woel:s . . _it has

been the custom all over t he world to grant a bonus and im pose customs duties m connexwn With the crea\ion of the iron industry. 679. B y M1·. Watson .- You say that Mr. Darby suggested . the erection of furnuces capable of treating 500 tons Yes. ·

68 0. Has he since made any other r ecommend

68 1. I notice that the furnaces proposed in your es timate arc capable of treating only 300 tons per day original idea was that we should have furnaces which would be able. to ·treat 500 ton.s daily. Of course, Mr. Darby's report is a very bulky docum ent, :wd I

know it is quite on the cards that he would erect furnaces of that capacity. 682. If no bonus were offered t o encourage the establishment of t his industry, but a duty upon the raw material was imposed in lieu thereof, would that suit you a?1 perfectly. that, as t he

bonus and the d uty are not concurrent, if a d uty were levied upon Iron It wou ld su tt us qmte as well as if we were granted the bonus only. . . '" .

68 3. By Jo :;eph Cook .- vVhat amount of protectiOn .would }"Oll reqmre ... hat .would entirely depend upon the value of the article. 'raking into comideratwn the cla.ss _of work wlnch we shou ld probably get, it is more than likely that the im position of a duty upon Iron from t he start of the E)nterprise would be very nearly as good as. a bonm . . I.n t he bonusand the duty are

and of when we ori"inally entered mto negot1atwns wtth the people m England, we suppJsed t.1at the 'Federal wo uld be

0

very similar to the Canadian tariff. I think upon reflection that we wou ld pi·efer to have the benefit of a duty immedintely than any bonus. . _

684. W hat rate of duty would you reqmre ?-- 'Ve were calcubbng upon b per cent. all

round. 685. vVhat does that mean per cent. ctd va1 . 15 per cent. upon pig iron means so mm.:h, anrl

F. l 050 1. JJ

W. Jamieson, 25th.September, 1902. 34

686. You say that 15 per cent. upon steel rails would satisfy you '!-On that product alone. I£ when we turned out a ton of steel rails we were protected to the extent of 1 fl per cent. we should be perfectly satisfied. To my mind that would be more than equivalent to the bonus. I may tell the Committee that I obtained from the N ew South Wales Government the average price which it had paid for the supply of steel rails for ten years. That price was £5 15s. Gel. per ton, out of which sum they allowed only 12s. 6d. per ton for all charges from London to Australia. Of course no other people upon earth could have obtained it at that figure.

687. Is that the cost from the point of despatch at the port in London 688. 'W hat is the ordinary price of pig iron name "pig'' is an extraordinary one to give to an iron of which there a re so many different kinds. Good brands, however, can be obtained f.o. b. at Glasgow for 50s. per ton. Of course if one is lucky enough to secure freightage in a timber ship which requires to get "stiffening " for Baltic, he can land pig iron in Australia for 2s. or 3s. per ton, but if he is not fortunate in this way he may have to pay 15s. per ton. Not long ag:J the Mount Lyell Company required 150 tong of pig iron for a small foundry. They had to pay 85s. per ton in order to obtain a good brand. That iron was put on board at Glasgow for 56s. per ton, and the freightage

amounted to an additional 13s. 6d. per ton. We purchased it through a broker. That is the usual practice, and that is why pig iron here costs so much to the foundry men. Its price is enhanced by reason of the fact that it is purchased only in small quantities. Throughout the whole of Australia only 30,000 or 40,000 tons of pig iron are consumed annually. A foundry like the Otis Company has established would purchase its pig iron through a broker, because it would require only 30 or 40 tons at a time. It does not pay to keep a stock on hand. The 150 tons w!Jich we purchased the other day had

to be brought out in three different ships. Further, there is a tremendvus difference in the quality of the various classes of pig iron at home. In Australia only a very small quantity of each of the different classes of pig iron is consumed. It is used chiefly in foundries for cast-iron pipes, &c., which can be manufactured locally. But if large works such as those which we contemplate were erected we should always keep a stock of 5,000 or 10,000 tons of pig iron upon hand. The idea that a duty upon this class of iron would injuriously affect our manufacturers is altogether wrong, because we should probably make a contract with every one of them. vVe should visit them and say, "Tell us your yearly

demand, and at a moment's notice we will supply you with any quantity that you may require." That would be a great advantage to them, because the importers of that article cannot keep big stocks upon hand, and as long as we supplied a first-class pig at a reasonable cost there would be an all-round benefit conferred. A s a first· class locally produced pig would be equal to a good average pig at home, our manu­ facturers would probably deal with us if it suited them to do so. Of course it must be understood that I am not speaking from experience. ·

689. By the Chairman.-Have you any doubt of your capacity to produce a good article at a reasonable cost 1- No. vVe gave .Mr. Darby every possible latitude regardless of expense, and he was to satisfy himself as to the prospects of the enterprise and to order anything which he chose in connexion with it. .My statements are based upon his report. He himself is perfectly satisfied. He took some ore to

England, and has no hesitation in declaring that it is a first-class ore containing no deleterious sub­ stances . I can give the Committee the result of the analyses which he made. 690. Hy 1lfT. L. E. Groom.-Does his report deal with the quality of the deposits and the analyses of the Yes. This is what he says about the whole deposit :-

An (IVerage s:1mple over the whole deposit. gives the following complet.e analysis:-Ferric Oxide 86·954 }

Ferrous Oxide 3·074 63·259 per cent. iron

Silica 7 ·312 per cent.

Alumina .. . 1·756

Lime 0·068

Magnesia 0 ·011

Sulphur Trioxide 0·060

Phosphorous Pentoxi de 0·083

"

"

0·024 per cent. sulphur 0·036 phosphorus

" Titanic Acid 0·03

" Copper Trace

Arsenic Trace

Magtwese Trace

Chromium Absent.

Combined W at.e r 0·324 per c.ent.

Moisture 0·160

99•892

691. lly Jlfr. have said a good deal about Mr. Darby. Will you tell me what are

his qualifications 1-He is a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers, a director of large steel works called Brymbo Steel \Vorks, in England, which I noticed, the other day, was about to erect about .£200,000 or £300,000 worth of addition al machinery. He was appointed by our people at home, who are big ironm ,tsters t hemselves. vVe left it to them to select a man in whom they had implicit confidence

to ,·isit tho Bl ythe }{,iver min e and examine the whole deposit. vVe put upon them the onus of finding the man, and we provided the money with which to pay him. His terms were .£3,000, with all expenses paid. His expenses here and in America have totalled £4,000. 692. By JJh·. L. E . Groom.-In that report, does he mention the quantity of ore ava.ilable which averages 63 per cent ?--He says-

In est.imat.ing the probable quan t.ity of ore, I have taken the river bed as the bot.tom, although it is nearly cert.nin to ext.end downward much further, and have measured the width of the deposit. where the sides are well defined. The cubical eo n tents of the deposit., which I have t.hought. it. advisable to reduce by one-half, at. 3 tons per cubic yard, yield 24,500,000 tons.

The filet is that 1\ir. Darby measured the deposit only above the river bed. He said that looking at all the outcrops upon it a very liberal discount was to allow that half the ore was not of a high-class quality The cost of putting it on board ship he estimates at 3s. 6d. per ton.

35

1461

W. Jamieson, t5th September, 1902.

693. By_ ill?-. Ji'uller.-:-At the time Mr. Darby came out to make this report had you any idea Bonus B1ll was to ?e mtroduced 1-No; but when the Commonwealth was established we supposed

that 1t w?uld the by other countries, and initiate a protective policy so as to induce

the creatwn of b1g mdustnes of tl11s character. I may tell the Committee th:.tt some time n,o-o we entered into negotiations with the New South Wales Government for the supply of 100,000 tons of steel raib. As a guar·antee of our bona fides we put up a deposit of £10,000. The negotiations, howe1·e r, failed throuah no fault of our own, but owing to a change of Ministry. "

694. By ill'r. Joseph Cook.-Then you would have started operations in New South 'Vales without the aid of any bonus 1- vVe felt sure that when the Commonwealth was established it would either impose a duty upon iron or else encourage the creation of the iron industry by granting a bonus for the production of that article concurrently with the operation of a duty.

695. But you would have gone on with the enterprise without either ;1 bonus or duty 1-0h, no; we should have forfeited our £10,000. Our action was based upon the · assumption tha t the Common­ wealth would be certain to adopt a protective policy, and we were willing to risk £10,000 in OL'der to get a contract.

696. What was the date of your offer 1-It was about October, 1900, at the time l\fr. Darby was here. 697. By the Chairman.--You would prefer the benefit conferred by a 15 per cent. duty, which was to come into operation immediately, to a bonus 'l--Yes, if the bonus and the duty were not concurrent.

698. If you had the benefit of a protective duty without tLny bonus, would the local price of iron be increased 'l--I do not Lhink so. I have already explained that in regard to the pig iron business there is nothing in it. I do not think that the price of finished articles, such as steel rails, ships' plates, &c., would be increased by the operation of a duty. The States Governments are the chief consumers of steel

rails, and we look to them to enter into big contracts with us at stated prices. 699. "Without any protection, do you consider that you would be subjected to severe competition 1 - There can be no doubt a bout that at all. The freightage rates are nothing in our favour. For

example, if we established ironworks at Sydney, those rates would benefit only that particular port. The freightage from Sydney to Queensland would be heavier than it is from London to Sydney. Of course, if the Que ensland Government entered into a big contract with us it might pay us to charter <;pecial vessels, and thus secure. the advantage of cheaper freights. The local freights, however, are

absolutely against us. 700. By Jf?·. Joseph Cook.-Wl1at is the local freight 1-I£ we regard coal as a low-freight article -which it is- I would point out t hat so long as we make a yearly contract we can get coal carried from Sydney to Tasmania for about 7 s. per ton. It can be shipped to Melbourne for from 5s. 6d. to 6s. per

ton, and can be carried to Adelaide for 2s. or 3s. per ton more, whilst to land it in vVestern Australia would cost from 12s. to 15s. per ton. These are the freights which the colliers would charge. I am connected with a mining company in Broken Hill which enters .into very large coal contracts. If they make a contract for twelve months they get the coal a little bit cheaper than they otherwise would do.

But even in the case of these ·.'ery good contracts the freight to Port Pirie is not less than 9s. per ton. Of course to some extent the rate depends upon the quantity consumed. Then the ships get back loading in the shape of bullion, which they take very cheap. Of co urse. I am speaking of the lowest class of freights. It wo uld be impossible to get steel rails carried at that rate. I paid 9s. per ton to the Union

Steam-ship Company for freightage upon rails carried from Melbourne to Burnie, and they assured me that they did not make a cent out of the transaction on account of the time occupied in unloading it.. 701. I s t he competition in iron very keen 1-0f course in America and Canada the competition is very severe. Canada is going ahead enormously in the matter of t_he de:elopment of. iron

resources. The competition there is becoming excesBively keen. England 1s holdmg her own fmrly well, but it must b e remembered that she produces a first-class article. Unquestionably, however, the com­ petition is very keen. 702. I s it keen in the Australian market 1-Yes, because the States Governments call for tenders

from all parts of the world. Quite recently, in Victoria, the State Government have been importing American rails. 703. By Mr. Joseph Cook.-What quantity 1-About 10,000 or 15,000 tJns. 704. By Mr. Mauger.-The other day ?-Some little time ago. It cost £5 I Ss. 6d. pm· ton, so that it ran very close to the New South Wales average of £5 15s. 6d. per ton.

705. The price was for delivery in Victoria'l--Of course. 706. By jfr. Watson.- I understand that so far you have not formed the yroposed 7-

The company is in existence at the present time. It contains 1,000,000 shares, uOO,OOO of whwh are issued to the owners of the mine, and we have to put up as well.

707. By JJ!fr . AfcCay.-What is the value of the shares 1-They are shares. 708. By llh. Wc£tson.-The gentlemen who owned the Blythe Rtver have put up

£30,000, and they then credit themselves with 500,000 shares1-Yes, that 1s half the mme. The arranaement how ever was made merely for convenience. We knew very well that the company would have to be liquidated the moment we co uld organize another. It was only formed with a view to pre­ paring the way for a larger company. The difficulty which us was whether we sho_ulcl sell

some of the shares . We might just as well have put the company mto 100 shares, and have gtven the original owners 50 of them. Th.e shares have no market value. The whole matter was merely one of form. If the mi11e were situated in England of course it would be worth a lot of money, and, unques­ tionably, its owners would expect to receive a substantial sum for it. But I may inform the Comm ittee

that these shares were only valued at about 2s. 6d. each. 709. By j )f?-. J oseph Cook.-Although t.hey were nominally £ 1 shares 1-Yes. But the arrangement entered into was simply on e of cum·eniem:e. 710. By }If?-. Watson. - 'l'he position is that you hn ve no t had the cnp ital for the proposed works

guaranteed1-Yes, we have. If the Bonus Bill had been passed at the time we thought it would be, the capital was guaranteed. D2.

\V. Jan1ieson, 25th September, 1902. 36

711, The capital necessary to enable you to establish these works would have to come not from the 500, 000 shares, but from some other source?- Yes. 712. Has that money been subscribed, or is it promised 1-At the period to which I have just refened it was absolutely guaranteed conditionally that the Bonus Bill and the 'l'arifl passed. \Vhen I was negotiating for a second time with New South Wales Government for the supply of 200,000 tons of steel rails, the a1 ·rangement was subject to t he approval of the State Parliament, and also to the passing of the Bonus Bill and the Tariff. At that time the money had been absolutely

guaranteed. 1

713. By J.lfr. Joseph Cook.-Do I understand that you have approached the New, South Wales Government upon two occasions?-Yes. The Government, however, had to put the proposal before Parliament for its approval. - .

714. By Jfr·. Watson. - With regard to the estimate of the probable expenditure required, which is contained in Mr. Darby's report, can you give a brief outline of the different classes of iron that you contemplated turning out. You did not intend to confine yo urself to pig iron ?-Oh, no. vVe intended to t urn out steel rails, sheets, plates, girders, &c. F inished ar t icles such as engines, boilers, castings, &e., Mr. Darby thought, would have to be manufactured by other people from the pig iron produced here and sold by our company, or any other smelting company that might be established. After the iron ore has

been reduced in the big furnace and become what is technically known as pig iron it passes in a molten condition either into t he steel refining furnace or the puddling furnace and thence-still in a heated condition-to t he rolling mills so that it may loose as little as possible of the heat which has been generated in the furnace. The name " pig " is usually interpreted to mean a piece of cold iron in the shape of a pig. The production of the works contemplated would include pi g iron, steel rails, sheet s, plates, girders, steel ingots, and bar and rod iron.

715. B y J.lf1·. TVatson.-As I uiiderstand, you propose to erect two furnaces each of 300 tons capacity. Do you know what is the capacity of the largest and most economical furnaces at present in use in America ?-Yes; they are quite capable of t reating 700 tons per clay. Such furnaces, however, would be too large for 1.1se here. It wo uld be impossi ble to run one of those fumaces continually. We should require to have twelve months' orders ahead to enable us to do it.

716. I s not the use of t he largest possible a factor i11 the economical production of iron 1 -Unquestionably it is, if there were sufficient contracts in hand to enable such a furnace to be kept continuously working. 717. You think it would be unwise to put up the largest type of furnace 1- Yes.

71 8 -71 9. Can you produce metal as with a smaller furnace1-Considering the

. loeal conditions, I think so. 720. you gone into the question of the cost at which iron can be produced and trans­

ported throughout the Commonwealth 1-Mr. Darby has gone into that matter very carefully, no doubt, but that is a portion of his report which ;r could not divulge. Of course, the cost would vary according to where the works located.

721. Are you in a position to supply the Committee with any estimate-rough or otherwise-of the cost of mining the ore, conveying it to your centr"al works, an d producing the iron ; and can you tell us the price at wh ich you co uld place iron upon the local market 1- I could not furnish t hose particulars, because they comprise the very essence of our business.

722 . You must see that that matter has an important bearing upon any proposal to grant a bonus for the encouragement of the industry 'I--I do not there is a man upon earth who could tell you the cost.

723. But there is no doubt that you have an es timate of the cos t of production either in the form of pig iron and st eel based upon normal conditions?- There are no normal conditions existing. W e have an estimate, but I cannot disclose what it is. 724. By fi1r . Joseph Cook. - You decline to furnish t he committ ee with the estimates '1--Y es ; it hus cost us a lo t of money to gain t he information.

725 . By Jlfr. FulleT.- Seeing that you are asking for a bonus to aid you in this enterprise, I think we are entited to have t hat information ?-I cannot supply it. I feel sure t hat if you ask Mr. Sandford a similar question he would take up the same attitude as I do. lVIr. J aquet says that the cost of production is £2 7 s. 7 d. per ton.

726. By 1 111-. Watson.-Mr. J aquet does not pretend to be an expert in this matter. H e says that he is a geologist 7-Tl,at is so, but he can obtain figures as well as can any. one else. I think that the mittee will recognise t hat t here is one strong reason why I should not give t he information for which I am pressed. w· e ar·e not the only persons in the market. If our expert declared that we could produce iron at a lower price than our rivals they might possibly be very seriously hamper ed in t heir efforts to raise the necessary capital to erect their plant. Moreover, in every trade and business there are certain matters which even t he shareholders, who are part owners of it, are not allowed to know.

727. B ut this is not an. ordinary business t ran mLCtion. This is an instance in which it is asserted that the iNitial cos t of establishing the iron industry in A ustralia is so great t lmt unless we grant either a bonus or a duty to aid it, it is impossible to establish it. If that be so, before granting assistance we ought to be thoroughly satisfied that such assistance is necessar·y, and to wh at degr ee it is necessary ?­

I can only baldly state t he conditions under which I can raise the necessary capital to creat e this r.ompany. 728. By Jh. 1VcCay.-But you have gone into t he matter. Are your estim ates based upon the delivery of t he m·ticles from your works at Melbourne, Sydney, or Brisbane at t he price at which it can

he obtained from England and America 1-It all depend s upon the price at the time in England and America. Not long r.go steel \YaS £7 a ton in England. 729. JJy 1ih. Wats on .- Not long ago E ngland delivering steel rails in SydnAv nJ. £4 l Os.

1463

37 '"· J·amieson, .25th September, 1902.

730. By 1lfr. McCay.-Could you supply contracts for ten years at an average of £5 l 5s. 6d. per ton could not say. No one could possibly foresee what difficulties we should be confronted with in the init ial stages of the establishment of the work s, or what amount will need to be expended in metalluro·ical experiments, which must be carried out. "

. 7 31. B?:( .l{r. L. E. Groom.- You require the bonus as a guarantee against loss ; but it

constitutes an mducement to embark upon the enterprise. 732: By. Mr. J oseph Cook.-How do you know that a 15 per cent. duty would be sufficient ?-I am merely an mdn;1dual, and I ca? only tell you ,t erms upon which I can secure t he necessary capital from abroad. There are certam terms upon whiCn that money can be

_7 33. B'!/ llh. Fuller.-Y_ou are asking us to grant you a before we have given you

somethmg for 1t. W e have to m cur an enormous outlay first, in an endeavour to cren,te a new industry, and to run the risk of losing the whole of it, wheren,s the Stat e could not erect the works itself unless it spent an equivalent sum, and even then could not manage the undertaking any better. 734. By A£1 ·. Watson .--You say that you would be satisfied wit h a 15 per cent. duty in lieu of a

bonus'/-W e have received ad vices to that effect from home. 735. You know under the Tariff at the present time there is a duty of per cent. upon

iron manufactures. Do you t hink th:tt a similar measure of protection upon the raw materials would prove a sufficient inducement to your Company?--I feel satisfied that 15 per cent. would be a sufficient inducement to commence operations, but I t hink that 126 per cent. would be accepted, and that the people in London with whom we have been negotirtting would be willing to proceed with the work if I

cabled to t h em. 736. If your works were est< tbli$hed, do you think that the local consumers of iron could get it as cheaply as t hey do suppose that t hey would do so. Of co urse the price varies considerably.

The other day I got a quotation of £3 17s. 6d. per ton for pig iron landed in Adelaide, whereas quite recently we had to pay £4 5s. 6d. per ton. Then the price is regulated to some extent by the brand and by the oversea freightage. 737. Assuming that you were able to supply the Sydney consumers without having to add the

duty to the cost of production, do you think you wo uld be able to supply people at other ports in the Commonwealth to which you have to pay a freight equal to the oversea freight at the same price ?-No, of course t he freight would have to be extra. Unquestionably the place where t he works are established must derive a benefit.

738. It is evident that the people in the States, other than t hat in which the works were situated would have to pay more for the iron?-Yes, the mere matter of the height re.presents the ciifference. 739. A ssuming t hat t he people in the States, other than that in which the smelting works are located , got.their iron at a price equivalent to the outside price, it would necessarily follow that you could produce your iron at a lower cost ?-No man can answer that question. In a large business like

this it is simply impossible to foretell the result. The people who establish the works simply say in effect- " vVell, t he enterprise seems to be good enough, and we will r isk the money." But it is impossible to foretell what would be the result under certain circumstances. 740. You know that the duty on manufactured iron under the Tariff is 12! per cent. ?-Yes.

741. If the cost of the raw material were considerably increased to the makers of machines in Aus­ tralia, a very different complexion would be put upon the 12! per cent. protection which t hey now enjoy'( - Of course, but we should have only 12! per cent. protection upon pig iron. That represents on the value of pig landed h ere about Ss . per ton. Surely that sum would make very little difference to them.

7 4 2. But if there were any material increase in the cost of pig iron it would pay our people to import the complete machines, instead of manufacturing them locally is very difficult for me to say that. You proceed upon the hypothesis that the price of iron would be dearer. I say that, taking into consideration all the intermediate profits which are made at the present time, we might b e able to make

terms with the manufacturers. Upon the whole, I do not think that the article would be any dearer, considering the facilities they would have for its purchase. 7 43. Assuming that there is a fear on the part of some of the secondary users in the Common­ wealth that the cost of the raw material to them would be unduly increased by the imposition of a duty,

do you think that your company would be prepared to commence operations if the duty were taken off pig iron and remained only upon the manufactured product ?-I do not think the people would find the money and risk it in such an undertaking. .

744. Do you think it would pay to do so ?-I cannot tell. We have to do the busm ess as a whole, and we cannot go into details. . . .

7 45. But you can see that such a duty would affect every foundry propnetor m Austraha very materially ?-But you are arguing on the supposition that these works would be a monoply, and I say that they would not. . . . .

7 46 . Assuming that there is no monoply, but a certain amount of comRetltwn, the stlll remains whether the price of iron would b e mat erially increased by. the operatwn of a. duty, ar;td lf so, whether it would injuriously affect the locaJ manufacturer of machmes ?-I do not thmk t hat 1t would injuriously affect him, because bargains would be made all round. Moreover,. manufacturer w0uld have a dep6t to draw upon. I believe that if we co uld get 80s. per ton for pig Iron here we should be

fairly satisfied. 7 4 7. But our manufacturers can obtain it cheaper than t hat ·I-They cannot. 7 48. By the Chairman.- You do not think that the operation of a duty wo uld increase the price of .pier iron locally ?-That is a question which it is impossible for me to answer.

" 7 49. By Mr. Wntson.-Have you had any analysis made to test the o.f the various

coals for iron production ?-I do not know whether :Mr. Darby left t he result of h1s analysiS here, but I know that he visited Port K embla, and tlmt t he coal t here and also at Newcastle is su itable for smelting purposes under certain conditions. The best possible coke would be made by mixing the two coals in certain proportions. Almost any quantity of coal suitable for the manufacture of iron can he obtained

in the Bulli district.

\V. Jamieson, 25th September, 100"2. 38

750. Do you think it would pay to mix Newcastle coal with that of Port Kembla7-Yes, a small proportion, say one-third or one-fourth. 751. In selecting a site near Sydney, you were no doubt influenced by the probability of coal being found in payable quantities in the harbor colliery ?-I happen to be interested in that colliery, and, of comse, we thought that if it proved successful we should be able to take large quantities of coal from that source. We could tug almost any quantity of it a distance of 4 miles at a very low cost.

We propose to have our own colliery steamer, so as to make everything as cheap as possible. The chief reason why we selected a site at Sydney is that the Newcastle railway runs along one side of our pro­ perty, whilst the river is on the other. We cou ld bring a boat that would carry 8,000 or 10,000 tons right into the wharf, as there is over 20 feet depth of water there. The site is only 10 miles from Sydney. It is an excellent distributing and marshalling spot. If we wished to send iron away for redistribution,

we could bring a big boat right up to the wharf and dump the iron on board. 752. \Vas it part of your plan to make your coke at the works 1-Yes. Another consideration was that, as the spot is only 10 miles distant from Sydney, if we erected a plant for generating certain gases, we would unquestionably have a good chance of disposing of the electrical power thus created.

753. You spoke of the different qualities of American and English pig iron ?-Yes. 7 54. Do you require different qualities in the manufacture?-Yes. 755. Do they blend these different qualities of pig 1-They can be blended. But if you wish to turn out a first-class article, you will buy the best kind of pig. If you chose to refine low-class pig, you can do so, or it is possibl e to blend it with iron of a better quality. In the opinion of Mr. Darby the pig iron from the hematite ore at the Blythe River would be suitable for all classes of foundry work for manufacturing any class of steel.

756. Have you given attention to the output that would be necessary to meet the requirements of Australia?-Yes; we have obtained a rough idea from the Government statistics. 757. Can you give any estimate of those requirements ?-The total consumption of iron in Australia is about 450,000 tons annually. Of that quantity about 350,000 tons com prise pig iron, steel rails, sheets, plate wire, tin plates, &c. Having gone into the mat ter pretty fully, I estimate that the whole of the States Governments do not consume more than 140,000 tons annually.

758. Does that quantity include Yes, it includes everything which they require; but

of course the quantity varies considerably. For example, the Victorian Government recently purchased 9,000 tons of steel plates to construct special trucks in connexion with the grain business. Consequently this State can only be debited with the wear and tear upon the plates used iu those trucks. Similarly tho 'IV estern Australian Government have purchased thousands of tons of steel sheets for the purpose of mmmfacturing water pipes iR connexion with the Coolgardie water scheme. The quantity of iron thus consumed ought to be distributed over a number of years in order to arrive at a correct estimate. But in normal times I think that 130,000 or 140,000 tons would suffice for all requirements.

759. 'fhat would mean that about 200,000 tons are annually consumed other than by the States Governments 1-Yes, by the public. Of course there is a vast quantity of galvanized iron used as well as wire, besides all the material in the way of bar, rod, and nugle iron. Hundreds and thousands of miles of wire fencing, for example, are to be found in the back country. The same remark is applicable to galvanized iron. \Vhenever a new mining towns'hip springs into existence that article is very largely

used, whereas the States Governments consume very little of it. 7 60. By M?·. Joseph Cook.-Your estimated output of iron generally is 150,000 tons per annum 7 -Yes. 761. According to that, your works would be able to serve the probable local requirements, exclusive of those articles which are likely to be imported, for some time 1- Yes, if we could establish the works, no doubt we should be able to meet the local demand. But a vast quantity of these materials is consumed in IV estern Australia and the Northern Territory, which the freights would prohibit us from

reaching. If the works proved successful we should be able to extenel them, and if there is any other spot where it would pay to erect subsidiary works, t hat course might be adopted. For instance, we might erect additional works at Burnie. 762. You think that you would have a great deal more ore to take to the coal than coal to take to the ore1-No, there would be about the· same quantity of each.

763. You moan coke, do you not 1-But, roughly speaking, we refer to a ton of coal. Some of the coals coke up very highly. \Ve have works belonging to the Mount Lyell Company which turn out quite 500 tons of coke per week. They are situated at Port Kembla. 764. Would you care to say what it costs to produce coke1--I could not tell you that.

765. What is the selling price in Sydney 1-At the present time the selling price would be, roughly, 14s. a ton upon the ground. Sometimes it is 16s., and we paid as much as 19s. per ton before we started our own works, but not long ago we sold some for I5s. a ton. 766. The price of it in Sydney the other day was only 9s. 6d . a ton 1-No, there was never a ton of coke sold at t hat price.

767. You are a director of one of the Broken Hill mines 7-Yes. 768. Are you connected with the company which makes its own coke 7-No, that 1s the Pro­ prietary Company. 769. By M?". company gets its coal from Port Kembla 1-Yes.

770. By jJfr. Watson.- It is the best carrying coke 7-We use imported coke as well. Formerly we used enormous quantities of standard coke from Germany, but the big prices which we had to pay forced us to put up our own works. 771. By 3!? ·. you know the difference in the percentages of ash in the various

cokes 1-At Port K mbla they run from 14 to 17 per cent., whilst at Newcastle good coke can be obtained which carries only 6 or 7 per cent. of ash. But then it is not a good carrying coke. It will crush too easily, although it is good for heating purposes. 772. By jJf?-. Watson.-If you established works at Burnie would you have any supply of lim e­ stone available ?-Any quantity.

1465

39 \V. Jamieson,

25t h September, I902,

773. H ow do you r egard the Government imports of iron 1-I estimate that the States Govern­ ments import 130,000 or 140,000 tons annually of which 100,000 tons consistq of steel rails. 7! 4. Assuming that the High Court ruled- t hat the Commonwealth Government has no power to tax the 1mports of the States Governments, do you think that you would be able to compete with the ou tside world w·ithout the aid of a duty ?-I dare say that in some instances t.he Government wo uld be inclined to give us a contract at a fair rate. Generally the country in which such a birr industry is establi hed is glad to assist it .

0

775. Do you think there is any likelihood of your gettin cr suffic ient wo rk to do in the absence of a duty on State ' Ve should have to run the risk of th

0

at. vVe do not t hink so much of that

matte1 ·, because when it is boiled down the Stat es get the money returned to them. If you charge 15 per cent. upon steel rails they get three-quarters of the revenue thus derived returned to them. 776. How long would it take to get your works started in the event of the Bill passing ?--Two a nd· a half years. The arrangement with the New South Wales Government was t hat we should start

within two years, with a six mo nths extension in case of accident. 777. By jjf?-. L. E . Groom.-How many men do you estimate you would employ for the first four months 'I--I suppose that their wages would average, roughly speaking, a bout £3 per week, which would mean about 3,000 men.

778. Do you mean to say that you wou ld employ that number from the jump ?- That is

the number which wculd be employed during the first four months in which operations we re in full swing. 779 . In the summary which you have put before the Committee there is an amount of £ 17,108 which you say will be required fo r the Blythe Hiver iron mines. What is meant by that item ?-We have to create t he power for air drills and to lay out the mine. There are lots of other things to be done, and the a mount mentioned is what is estimated is necessary to put the mine in good working

order a nd to enabl e ·us to turn out 1,:30 0 tons per day. ·

180. The which you estimate at 24 ,000,000 tons is at present held by t he Blythe Rinr Company?- Y es. 781. vVhat is the number of shares in that company million. 782 . H ow many of those shares have been allotted hundred t housand .

783. To whom have they bee n allotted 7-To the owners of the property and to those who haYe put up the £30,000 odd. 784. Have any shares been allotted to the owners of the property in consideration of the transfer position is t his : The original owners of the mine were Tasmanians. I happened to

come into con tact with t hem in a business capacity. We looked a t the deposit and agreed to spend much money upon it . Our first intention was to work it as a flux mine, but when it was opened out we concluded t hat it was good enough to conver t it into a big iron company after the Commonwealth had been established. Then a great difference of opinion arose as to how we should proceed. ' ¥ e pu r­ chased 700 tons of rails, got all t he sleepers cut, and had detailed surveys made, besides incurring

an enormous expenditure in other directions. We paid a deposit upon land in Sydney and bought a good deal of land at Burnie. 78 5. Are those shares held by the Y es.

786. D o the personFJ who transfer hold shares in consideration of the Y es .

i 787. The present proposal is to form a new company, which will work under the conditions laid

down in the Bonus Bill if that measure be Y es.

788 . So t hat really it. will be necessary to raise £1,109,000 of fresh capital to equip the - Yes .

7 8 9. Has any prospectus been issued to the No.

790. The negotiations which have taken place in the old country a re private negotiations betwee n t he present proprietary and certain prospeGtive investors 7-That is so. 791. I s it the intention of the present shareholders to continue the interest which they now have in. the property ?-Most decidedly. . . .

792. It is not their desire to sell out to the company 1- Certainly not. Th ey will retam a cCI·lam proportion of the whole for the interes t which t hey now have. 793. H ave the Tasmanian proprietors faith in the venture they have. They wou ld

invest in it every cent they have in the world. . . .

794. The present proprietors thoroughly intend to carry on a:s a permanent 1nveslm: nt. It is not intended to float it as a speculation, and t o allow the Enghsh cap1tahsts to caiT)' on operatJcr:s as they think fit 7--N o ; t he people here desire to retain their in the property a FJ long as t hey

can afford to do so. No doubt, some people who are res1dents would be placed upon t he lcca l

directorate. 795. In the event of your establishing work H on the Parramatta R iver, is it intended to draw the iron supplies of the other States 7-That depends entirely upon whether ':anted or not .. A good deal of the Blythe River iron ore is very heavy, and If we co ul d get oxidized ores whiCh are hght and are able to carry the weight, we might avail ourselYes of t he opportumty do so : But, of course,

I cannot give a proper answer to any_ such question. vVhen the manager I S appomted, he an d the metalluraist will conduct t he whole busmess. 7'96 . Did Mr. D arby report upon the iron deposits of New South W ales 1- N o. 797. By Mr. Jo seph Cook.--You in the event_of your securing the bi g with

the N ew South 'Vales Government of whu..:h you spoke, to use 2o per cent. of local ores. \Vhere d1cl yo u intend to obtain the ores the most suitable place. \Ve knew wh ere we could get it.

798. D o you know anything about the New Sout h Wales deposits 7- Yes. 799. H ave you formed any opinion of them ?-No doubt _ some of them arc very good . 800. I s it possible to work them profitably w1th the a1d of a bonus ?-I thmk so, but I do r.ot think it is fair to ask me that question, because it places me in the position of having to offer opinions

upon the value of other people's properties.

· ,V, Jamieson , 25th Se ptember, 1902. 40

801. Does Mr. Darby, in his report, refer to the quality of steel which would be likely to be produced from the iron deposits at the Blythe River?--The analysis of the Blythe H.i ve r ore is such that, under proper metallurgical treatment, it is sure to produce the best quality of steel.

80:2. \Vas any Blythe River ore taken to the old country and tren,ted 1-Yes. 803. Have you the results in your possession ?- I have not. Mr. Darby smelted a few .tons of it at horn e before he visited Australia. 804 . \Vas it a fair average sample, or was it picked ore 1-It was a fair average sample. W hen t he analysis discloses that i t contained 63 per cent. of iron, and we remember that 70 per cent. is pure hematite ore, its quality will be at once apparent.

805. By jJfr. L . E. Groom.:_ You stated t hat the freight from Sydney to Queensland- especially the norlhern part of it- is very high ?- It is higher there is no extreme competition. vVe sold

some coke, which had t o be fo rwarded to Ce1irns, and I know that the freight upon it was much mor e t han would be charged for a similar distance t he other way-I mean towards ·western Australia. 806. By J1fr. Jlfcmge1'.-Have you had any experience of iron works out side Australia 1- None whatever.

807. You cannot say whether any works have been established elsewhere wit hout ass istance from the Government ?-I know of none that were originally started without some kind of assistance. 808. Do you think that if Parliament drops the proposal t o grant. a bonus for the encouragement of the iron industry, t here is any chance of your company doing anything ?-As far as my advice goes, t here is no chance whatever. ·

809. If Parliament imposed a 12! per cent. duty upon the raw material, would there be any prospect of the company commencing operations ?-I believe that if such a duty were imposed quickly there would be a chance. But we have been hanging on to t hat hope for two years. 809A . vVould steel rails be your main product ?-That would entirely depend upon whether the Government would give us orders to supply all their requirements.

81 0. You are prepared to commence operations if you are granted encouragement either by way of the imposition of a duty or the payment of a bonus, and to risk whether yo u receive contracts for supplying the Governments with steel rails ?- No, we must have both--the bonus first and the duty else we must have a duty from the start. Upon the whole, I think we should

prefer to have the aid of a duty. 8 11. You would be prepared to risk whether you receive Government orders if you had the benefit conferred by a duty?-vVe should have to do so. If our wo rks were established in N ew Sout h vVales, we should be sure to receive a good share of t he Government contracts. . 8 12. You are not able to give any opinion regarding iron works in other parts of the world?-

Not other t han can be obtained from studying statistics upon the matter. 8 13. You cannot tell me what wages you would pay as compared with other centres 1·- VVe should have to pay wages equal to any paid elsewl1 e1·e. Skilled men would have to be secured from abroad till t he local workmen were taught sufficient to enable them to take their places.

814. Has that point bee11 taken into consideration ?-Oh, yts. 815. By 1 11?·. Kir·wan.-If the Bonus Bill be passed, will it increase the value of t he property of the Blythe River Company ?- Of course, it will. It would mea.n that there would be more than a probability of the company goin g ahead. If the Bonus Bill is not passed, we should simply have t o reserve that property until we have a better chance of making good use of it. Unless works of the character I have indicated are created, the ore at t he Blythe River is practically valueless. Of course, we can run a train into the property, take the ore away, and sell it as flux to the Cockle's Creek or Dapto Smelting vVorks, but that is all that it could be used fo r.

816. Can you form any idea of the ' value of the com pany's property, assuming that the Bonus Bill be passed ?-E verything depends upon circumstances. We might be fortunate enough to secur e very low freights, and thus be able to send the ore to England. The value of the property depends upon what use we can make of the ore and its price. It is very difficult to determine the value of a mi.r:e unU you can make use of it.

817. Can you state the difference that the passage of the Bonus Bill would make in the value of the company's property ?-The property occ upies just the same position tha.t is occupied by a slate quarry or anything else. If the quarry cannot be used for its legitimate purpose, it is only fit for road met al. A property is valueless until it is worked, and t herefore it is impossible to decide 'vhat the of the Blythe River mine would be.

818. Still the passage of the Bill would increase its value ?--Certainly, it would increase the va1ue of all properties, provided that the measure was good enough to induce capital to be invest ed in t;hem . 819. · Who would derive the chief advantage conferred by the passing of the Bill ?- If the mine were valued at a quarter of the capital subscribed by the new company, the people who found the money would get three-fourths of the property.

820. A good deal would depend upon the financing of the company in the first instance 1-U ndoubtedly. The passing of the Bill is merely intended to create a new industry in the country, and to induce people to invest t heir money in it. 82 1. By Mr. Jo;;eph Cook. - Is that all ?-Of course, it does good to everybody.

822. Do you know that in Canada t he iron industry has enjoyed the advantage of a bonus for the past eigh t een years ?-Y r.c· 823. I s that bonu s st1JJ oemg paid to create new industries or to continue old ones n some cases the industry was established long ago. The bonus was originall y given to induce capitalists to invest t heir money in t he enterprise and thus to benefit the country, although I do not pretend for one moment that they were ph ilanthropists, any more t han we are. If the Government do not pass the Bill, the fact is that we cannot .float the projected company and embark upon the undertaking.

824. You said that if the company were floated, one-fourth of the shares in it would be held by the present owners of the Blythe River mine, and three-fourths by t hose wl!o subscribed the

41

1467

\V, Jam ieso n, :15th September, 1902.

'No; I simply put a suppositious case. T said, by way of illustration, that if £ 1,000,000 were subscribed, unquestionably, the value of the mine would become a reality instead of a supposition, and tha t if its presen t owners got one-four th of the shares in the propose d company aud t hose ·wh o found the three­ fou rths, the proportions wou ld then be as one is to three. Of course, the passing of the Bonus Bill would make no eu.rthly to us unle% we could fmd the necessary capital.

825. Do you kno'v any reason why tate iron works should not be s uccessful within the Common­ wealth ?-1 think t hat one of the chief reasons wh y they would not be successful is t hat it is a business req ui ring t he g <·catest care and the highes t metn.lllll'gical skill. Continual attention needs to be paid t o the work in hanrl. P rrwnall y, I am of opinion that no State industry can be carried on in as economical

a manr:er as can a private enterprise. Moreo ver, the State 'vould have to pay the hea d man an enormous sala ry if tlw b usines s were to be properly managed. It would be impossibl e to secure t he services of a manager to take charge of works of the magnitude that we contemplate for less than £ G,OOO a year. 82 6. ·w ould you pay him that ?-I am i:i lll'e t ha t Mr. Darby would not accept that sala,ry. The

co mpany wi t h which I am associated pays large Ealaries t o its head men at Broken Hill, and I am sure t hat we wou ld prefer to increase them by 50 per cent. rather than lose their ser vices. In A merica, of managers get £ 10,000 a year.

82 7. no you t hin k t hat the manage ment of iron works is mqr c complicated than the manage­ ment of d ifferen t branches of industry which a rc alren.dy under Gov ernment control ?-Y es. The 8alaries pa id to the manager s of iron works are much higher than those given to the managers engaged in the smelting of lead and copper or e:< . A fi rst cl ass iron and steel metallurgist draws a, hi gher salary t han is

paid to a ny one else. 82 ' . l s it much more difficult to conduct large iron works t han it is to run a r ailway ?-Un­ doubtedly. It is not d iffi cult to run a rail way. 829. By Mr . Kirwan.- 1 suppose it is not difficult to manage a P ost and Telegraph department? - Certainly no t.

42

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ROYAL COMMISSION.

(Taken at M elbourne.)

TUESDAY, 17TH FEBRUARY, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Ron. C. C. KINGSTO N, Chairman. Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. L. E. Groom,

Mr. Winter Cooke, :lVIr. Watkins.

H enry Yorke Lyell Brown, sworn and examined. 830. By the Chainnan.- You are Government Geologist of South Australia?-Y es. 83 1. For how many years have you been in that position ?-Since about the end of the year 1882. 832. P revious to that you were in the employ of the New South \Vales Government?-Yes. 833. What position did you hold in New South Wales ?-I was Assistant Geologist. 834. I suppose you have a pretty intimate acquaintance with t he mineral resources of South Australia?-Yes.

835. Have you formed any opinion a :s to the capacity of South Australia for iron production and manufacture?-I am able to say that there are a great many deposits of iron in South Australia, some of them very large and some small. .

836. You have examined a good many of these deposits?-Yes, I have seen most of them. I submit the following list of the chief localities in South Australia at or near which iron ores occur :-Angaston, Barossa, Beltana, Bismark, BmTa, Blumberg, Clinton, Cutana, Crystal Brook, Hurella, Gladstone, Gum Creek, Huddleston, Hawker, Iron Knob and Iron Monarch, Koolka, Kapunda, Kersbrook, lYlount Jagged, Normanville, Oodla Wirra, Peralilla, Pernatty Lagoon, Point Lowly, Port Lincoln, Pandurra, Para vVirra, and Quorn.

837. Do you consider that there is a fair prospect of the establishment of iron manufacture in South Australia ?-Yes, I think there is at one of these 838. Which of the mines in the localities to which you have just referred is, in your opinion, most favoured ?-'l'he Iron Knob and Iron Monarch.

839. They are adjoining mines, are they not '!-Yes. 840. And are shortly referred to as the Iron Knob '!-Yes. I produce four photographs of the Iron Knob which I took myself some two or three months ago. I also produce two other photographs of the Iron Knob, and a plan showing the relative situations of the Iron Knob and the Iron Monarch.

84 1. Where is the Iron Knoh ?-It ie 40 miles west of Port Augusta. 842. It is not connected with Port Augusta by rail?-No; but it is connected with a place called the Hummocks, about 30 miles across the Gulf from Port Pirie. Then there is a railway extending for 33 miles to the Iron Knob from the jetty at the Hummocks.

843. The railway has been constructed by the Broken Hill Proprietary from the mine to the jetty, and the stuff is sent from the jetty in lighters to Port Pirie?-Yes, in lighters or steam-tugs. This has been done for the last seventeen months now. 844. Do you know how much has been shipped from these mines 7-At the time I was there, about Christmas, they told me that about 80,000 tons had been shipped.

845. 'l'hat is during the time the railway has been opened ?-Yes. 846. I s that from the South Quarry ?-Yes ; and I was told that about 10,000 tons had been shipped from the North Quarry. 84 7. vVhat is the length of the outcrop ?-About 20 chains, or a quarter of a mile.

848. Can you tell us what is about the height of the workings at the South Quarry ?-The greatest height is about 100 feet. 849. And the width at the bottom ?-About 150 feet. 85 0. What is the nature of the ore ?-It is hre matite.

851. You have visited the mine only recently for the purpose of reporting upon it?- Yes. 852. Can you give us an estimate of the quantity in sight above the level of the South Quarry? -Yes, I take it to be about 1,000,000 tons. I do not know how far it goes down. 853. Only estimating to the depth which you can see, you believe the quantity in sight above the level of the South Quarry to be about 1,000,000 tons 1--Yes.

854. Can you give the percentages of the various prqducts of the ore ?--Yes. I had an average assay supplied by the Broken Hill Proprietary, which shows t hat it contains 68·5 per cent. iron, a trace of manganese, no phosphorus, no sulphur, and 2·3 per cent. of silica. •

855. Did you ascertain the quantity of ore shipped to Port Pirie for the Broken Hill Proprietary Company during the half-year ending 30th November, 1902 ?-Yes, it was 53,000 tons. 856. You are speaking of the Iron Knob, as distinct from the Iron Monarch 1-Yes. 857 . Can you give us n description of the deposit in the Iron Monarch ?-It is a large hill rising from plain country, about 600 or 700 feet high.

858. What is the area approximately of the deposit ?-About 50 acres. It seems to be about 150 feet thick in one place, but there is a shaft below that again extending for a considerable distance. I have taken it at an average of I 00 feet thick, but that is by no means a liberal estimate, because it will go down in so me places deeper than in others.

859. Is t here much manganese there?-Yes, there is some, but it may not continue in the main mass . 860. You went there to form an estimate for the information of the Commission, knowing that you were to be examined 7-Yes.

1469

43 H. Y. L. Brown, 17th February, 1903.

86 1. You have formed an estimate of t he ore contents of what you saw at the Iron Monarch?­ Y es. I reckoned them at about 20,000,000 tons of ore. 862. I believe there are other ores scattered over the surface which you 11ave not estimated ?­ Yes, there are large blocks, boulders, and gravel, for a mile or two around, which have been denuded

from t he hill. 8G3 . Have you made any analyses of these ores?-Yes, and I procured some analyses hom the Broken Hill people as well. 864. What were t he Broken Hill analyses ?-The first gave 54 ·57 per cent. of iron, 12·7 man­ ganese, and silica 1·2 per cent. The second gave-iron 52 per cent., manganese 15 per cent., and silica

2·3 per cent. 865. Those are average n.nalyses ?-I asked Mr. Delpratt for analyses and t hose are what he sent me. You could hardly take an average, because it has not been opened up, but it looks like good ore all over.

866. You had co mplete analyses taken, had you not?- Y es. 67. How did you select the sample for analysis 7-I took what I considered to be an average sample and I had it analyzed at the Adelaide Sch ool of Mines. 868. With what result ?-It showed t he following results :-

W ater 1·23 per ce nt

Silica 1 ·19 ,

F errou<; Oxide 1·36 ,

Ferric Oxide . . . 92·88 , } = 66·08 per cent. iron

Alumina 2·47 ,

Phosphoric A cid 0·04

Sulphur Nil

Titanic Acid .. . Nil

869. I suppose you have seen a good many iron deposits in your time?-Yes. 870. How does this compare with any other deposits you have seen ?-It is the biggest I have ever seen in all my experience. 871. Having regard not only to the supply out to the value of the deposit?-Yes.

872. How is South Australia supplied with limestone 7-Very well; there is limestone all around the Gulf ; it can be got almost everywhere. The Proprietary Company have been getting it from an island on the coast, W andong I sland I think they call it . 873. Taking together these two deposits at the Iron Knob and the Iron Monarch, they form about the biggest thing in iron that we have in South A ustralia 7-Y es, a.nd t he most favorably situated

also; it is nearer to the coast than any other. 87 4. Knowing generally what the resources of South Australia are, what would be your idea in the working of the iron deposits : wo ul d you smelt there or elsewhere ?-I t hink I should ship the ore to where the coal was.

875. That, I think, is the general rule; I am alluding to the practice of sending foreign ores to England for the purpose of smelting?-Y es. 876. In view of the quest ion of shipping the ore to the coal or the coal to the ore, what are the relative quantities of coal and iron ore used in smelting iron ?-I think that three or four times as much

coal is r eq uired, but I am not a smelter. 877. Your idea is that the quantity of coal required is very much larger than the quantity of iron ore for smelting?-Y es. 878. Which mine would you · put next in importance to t he Iron Knob and Iron Monarch?-I think the Cutana mine. .

879. Where is that ?-It is on the line from Broken Hill to P etersburg, 10 miles sout h of Mingary Railway Sta.tion. The nearest port is Port Pirie, from which it is distant 203 miles by rail. 880. What is the ore chiefly ?-Chiefly limonite. 88 1. Is there any hrematite 1-There is hrematite.

882. What is the extent of the ore beds ?-A large bed of ore there averages from 10 to 20 feet. 883. Is the mine being worked now ?-They have not worked it since the Broken Hill Proprietary changed their smelting works. Since they shifted their wo rks to Port Pirie t he Campany have not used the ore from t his mine, but get it from the Iron Knob.

884. I think limestone occurs in the mine at Cutana ?-Yes, there is limestone with the iron there. 885. You have visited this mine?-Yes. 886. \Vhn.t is your estimate of the ore it contains '1-I think about 60,000 tons to the acre, but I cn,nnot tell without sinking a shaft.

887. It has been proved to a certain extent'I-Yes. 888. Can you form any idea of the acreage of the largest continuous body of ore proved 1-About 30 acres. 889. And you think a fair estimate is 60,000 tons to the acre'I-Yes.

890. H ave you had this ore assayed ?-Yes; I have had samples assayed. 891. Will you give us the results 1-Yes. The followmg 1s the result of the assay of hese samples:-Nodules from Surface.

W ater Sili ca Ferrous Oxide Ferric Oxide Alumina ...

Phosphoric Acid Sulphur Titanic Acid

l ·16 per cent. 6 ·26 0·79 88 ·40

2·65 O·ll Nil T race

}

=62·49 per cent. iron

\Vater Silica Ferric Oxide

Alumina Phosphoric Acid Sulphur Titanic Acid

Average Sample.

5·08 per cent. 18•47 71·04 =49·73 per cenL.

4•37 0·06 9·15 Trace

iron

H. Y. L. J3Nwn, 17th l<'ebrna.ry, 1003. 44

892, You have told us these quarries supplied ore as flux to the Broken Hill Proprietary Company before tbev had reco urse to t he Iron Knob?-Yes. 893. I think there are important iron deposits near Port V ictor in t he south 1-Yes, at Mount Jagged a nd P eralilla.

894. Dealing with Mount Jagged first ?-There is there a sort of lode formation associated with qu a r tz. It is not of very great extent. There is a quarry there 60 feet by 25 feet by 25 feet deep. 895. vVhat is the ore ?-Titaniferous iron. 8 9&. What is the width of the lode?-It is 12 fe et in thickness.

897. Have they tried smelting t.here ?-Yes. 898. By N1 ·. Joseph Cook.-Y ou say it is titaniferous iron ?--Yes. The assay shows 5·38 per cent. of ti: anic acid. 899. Does not that make it useless for steel purposes?-'l'hey made pig iron out of it some 40 or 50 years ago by means of locally-made charcoal.

900. By the Chainnctn.-What did it cost 1-It is supposed to have cost about £2 1 Os. per ton. 901. Locally-made charcoal was used ?-Yes. 902. That iB the information you have been able to gather upon the subject ?-Yes. I got that information out of an old book--an almanac, I think.

903. There large deposits of limestone there?-Yes, of veqr pure limestone. 904. You haYe mad e an analysis of this ore?-Yes. The analyzed gave the following results :-Water .. .

Silica

Tra.ce 0·80 per cent,

F errous oxide F erric oxide Phosphoric acid Titanic 11-cicl Sulphur

" Jt containing 66 ·34 per cent. iron

" 0·01 5-38 0·09 "

"

"

Thou gh this sample gave titanic acid, ther·e might not be titanic acid all through it. 905. Then the deposit at Peralilla is near Port Victor, too?-Yes it is within 6 or 7 miles north of Port Victor. ·

906. The deposit there is on the summit of a high and it has been used as a flux

quarry. 907. What is the average thickness of the deposit ?-Abol.lt 12 feet. 908. Have you formed au estimate of the q1.1antity o£ ore remaining ?-Roughly, I think, the quantity is l 00,000 tons; but it is mixed with ferruginous sandstone. It is nota very pure deposit .

I think the best has been taken away. 909. Where is the Codla Wirra deposit ?'-lt is 15 miles from Petersburg on the Broken Hill Railway. 910. Did the company use the ore from the mine as flux?-Yes, t he Proprietary Company used to get flux from there.

911. What quantity was taken away?-I was told 16,000 tons. 912. I suppose the best has been taken away ?-As f!tr as I could see, it appeared to have been nearly worked out. 913. Now, as to Donnelly's mine at Quorn. How i& t hat from t he nearest rail way statiDn 1 -It is 14 miles from Quorn station, which is 25 miles from Port A ugusta.

914. How n1any outcrops are t here at this place1-There ·are five chief outcrops. They have sent away 17,500 tons as flux to Port Pirie from there. 915. Have you formed an estimate of the quantity of ore remaining 7--I put it at about 470,000 tons.

916. In your opinion, is this a valuable and extensive is. There is a good quantity

of ore, but the analyses show that it contains a good dea.l of phosphol'io ao id , whioh of course detracts from the val1.1e. 917. You had som e samples a,nalyzed ?-Six samples of the ore, on analysis, gave t he following result s :-

- -- -

Fm•rugi no us Silicious Silicious Silicious - Manganese Li1nonit e. Limonite.

Ore. Hematite. Hematite. Limonite.

-----

\Vater ... ... .. . - 4·61 9·06 ]1·22 5 ·04 8·54

Insoluble (silica and silicate of alum ... )·69 1 •39 •67 26 ·10 20 ·29

F erric oxide * ... ... 32·96 74·95 79•75 83·84 63·68

Ferro.us oxide * .. . . .. .. . .. . - 2·52 1 •94 Trace '!'race 2·23

Alumina ... ... ... .. . 8•43 3•99 6·30 ·89 4 ·08 4•74

Phosphoric acid ... ··- . ,. . .. 1•22 •93 1 •34 2 •35 I ·16 1·00 Sulphur ... . .. ... ·n ·oo ·JS •05 Nil Nil Titanic acid ... ... .. . Nil Nil Nil Ni l Nil Nil Mang-a nese dioxide ... .. . 54•57 - - - - -Copper ... ... ... .. . .. . - - -- - ·16 -----98 ·98 99•85 99·96 99 •02 100·22. . 99•51 - - - - - - - - --- --------- - - - ----,,. Con taining iron , .. ... .. . 23 ·07 54'43 57•34 5R·68 44 •57 45•63 " 1.nanganese ... ... .. . 34•50 - - - - -Some of these samples were taken from tunnels where they were gettin g at a good depth. The silicious ones, I think, very likely came from there.

1471

45 H, Y. L. Brown, 17.th February, 1903.

918. You look upon South Australia as containing numerous deposits of very excellent iron - Y es. There are a, great ma.ny more deposits t han those in the localities to which I have referred, but they have not been worked. 919. By M1·. J oseph Cook- Those to which you have re ferred have been worked they

have beer. work ed for flu x . 920. By the Chainnan.- Have you any doubt that vast supplies of iron ore would be available in South Australia if smelting works were in Australia7-No. I have no doubt as to the

supply available in Sou th Australia, but I do not know whether it would be a bad thin()' to have too much manganese in the ore. · "

921. You think that South Australia could supply all the iron ore that might be wanted for centuries 922 . By Jl!!?-. J oseph Cook.-I suppose that when you speak of manganese being in the ore, you mean the copper contents generally 7-N o; manganese.

923. In the various analyses t o which you have referred I have noticed no mention of copper 1 -You will find that there is a return of ·16 per cent. of copper given in t he analysis of the silicious hematite ample from t he deposit a t Quorn. 924. By the Chai1·man.- Is there any other evidence you would like to give 'I-I produce a map

of Sou th Australia indicating approximately the localities to which I have referred. 925 . Some of the fluxin g material was supplied t o the l llawarr:.t mines?-Y es. 926. I s there anything else you would like to say in a general way to t he qua,l ity of the

iron, I do not of course know what amount of iron this iron ore would produce. I do not know enough about iron smelting to enable me to s:>.y that. 927. But you have given us the results of tests, and from them, those experienced in t he manu­ facture of iron will be able to t ell us the quality of the iron ore?-Yes.

928. By Mr. L. E. G1·oom.-So far there have bee n no tests made of smelting this ore into iron '1-I do not know of any except t hat referred to as having been made at Mount Jagged, a great many years ago. 929. Do you know how the Iron Knob and Iron Monarch are held 1-They are held by t he

Broken Hill Proprietary Company. 930. As a mineral Yes, as a mineral lease of 40 acres.

9:31. By M1·. Winte1· Coolce .-You say that you had experience in New South ·w ales before going to South A ustralia 1-Yes, I was on the geological survey in New South Wales. 932. H ad you any means of gaining any knowledge of the iron deposits of New South vVal es '1-.r o. I was on the gold-fields there.

933. Then you are not in a position to compare the iron deposits of South Australia with those m ew South Wales 7-No. 934. You have given us yom· opinion as a geologist as to the amount of iron ore you saw; but you are not able to say whether it was a good ore for smelting or not

935. I understand that your evidence goes to show that there is an iwn ore to be found in South Australia, but you are not in a position to say whether it is good for smelting, with the exception of q1at at Mount Jagged ?-I have said t hat, so far as I know, smelting has not been tried. 936. And as to the cost of producing iron from that ore you have no evidence to give, except the

statement which you saw in an almanac ?-That is all. 937. By Jfr·. Watkins.-You have never gone into the question as to whether it would pay to develop any of these mines 93 8. You can give us no definite statement as to the presence of silicia making the ore more

costly t o smelt 1- No; that is a smelting question also. There is very little silicia in some of t he ores. I do not suppose the very silicious ores would be smelted. 939. There is manganese and titanic acid in some of the sample8 analyzed?-Yes. 940. By Jl{?·. Joseph Cook.-You say you have not tested t he ores of the Iron Knob and the Iron Monarch below the p resent surface workings 7-No ; t hat has not been necessary, because it will take :1

good many years to clea.r away the ore above the level. 941. You have never thought it worth while to sink a shaft 7-No. .

94 2. In New South W ales Mr. J acquet had a number of shafts sunk for t he purpose of testmg the deposits in order to see what the probable contents were. You have not done anything of that sort 7 -No. I do not think that has been done. I do not t hink these deposits do go very de_;-p. My calcu­ lations as to the quantity of ore available are based upon the assumption that t hey do not go very deep. They are mushroom sort of things . They appear to be spring deposits. Indeed , I have seen t hem forming in some springs. . .

943. I s your reason for thinking that they do not contu:tue much below. t he surface den ved from your examination of the ore above the surface ?-From expen ence I have gamed. I have seen shafts sunk on similar deposits go right through them. . . :r

944. You have had no such shafts sunk m South Austraha '1-N o. They have not been

needed. -

945. Still you say the deposits do not go, ,very deep 7-I mean .that I do not think they go down 200 feet or 300 feet, or anything of that sort. I hey do not go down hke a lode. .

946. By jlfr. the ores you have seen there are wh at are termed oxidized ores?-

Yes. All oxides, not pyrites. 947. Would you think the presence of manganese and t itani? acid would be or _lesl:!

than in the oxidized state ?-I think the manganese would fall away m depth, but t11e B lhCla 1mght increase. 948. By Mr. Joseph Cook.-You say that the Iron Knob is 33 miles by railway fn•m the nearest water ?- Yes, from the nearest jetty.

. 949. Supposing a proposition we re made to develop t hese ores, at what place would they be shipped 7-From end of the railway where they are shipped now.

H. Y. L. Brown, 17th February, 1903. 46

950. Could t hat be done without lighters 7-They would only have to extend the jetty a little f urther out to get to deep water. 951. Such as would enable Inter-State boats to go alongside and load 7-I should think so. It is not a very rough place, it is only the.north wind s that affect it much.

952. \Ve have had evidence that, in all probability, the ore would have to be lightered from there 1 -I do not, of co urse, know t he depth of water. There a re other harbors close to the place. There is Point Lowly, which, it is said, is a better place, or t hey co uld connect with Port Augusta, which is a splendid harbor. .

953. Have you any idea as to the relative cost of smelting iron with charcoal and making it with coal ?-No; but I should think that it wo uld be cheaper to make it with coal than with charcoal. 954. How much a ton is coal landed at the point where it is said this charcoal, to which you hav<:J referred, was made 7-I suppose it would be from l8s. to 20s. per ton.

955. How was t he charcoal made 7-In the ordinary way, by burning gum trees. It must be remembered t hat t hey would have to cart the coal for 14 miles from Port V ictor. 956. ·what would you say a ton of charcoal would cost 7-I suppose it would cost £1 per ton. 957 . H ow many tons of charcon,l do you t hink it would take to smelt a ton of iron '!-Three or

4 tons I should think. 95 8. Then it would take 3 or 4 tons of charcoal at £1 per ton to smelt a ton of iron, which, we have been told, cost about £2 lOs. to produce; you must see t hat that story is impossible 7-I do not pretend to know anything abou t the charcoal business.

959. It is, of course, not fair to ask you to go into questions connected with iron manufacture, which is more or less a matter of chemistry. But I should like to ask you, having regard ·to the iron propositions already on t he tapis in New South Wales and Tasmania ; what chance you So uth Australia would have in competition with them, supposing an iron proposition were made having as its basis South A ustraJian ores; what chance do you think such a proposition would have of competing with t he Blythe River Company's proposition, or with propositions in New South \Vales 7-I think it depends upon how far the other deposits are from the sea. If t he deposits in New So uth Wales are closer to t he sea they would have a better chance of competing successfully.

960. B y JIIi-. You have not go ne into the question of production1-N o.

961. By J.lf1·. J oseph Cook.-Do you know where t:he Blythe River deposits are1-I do not know how far they are from the coast, and I am not, t herefore, able to make a comparison between them and the South Australian deposits. 962. By the Chairman.-You are of t he opinion that the South A ustralian deposits, to which you have referred , do not go down deep, and your estimat e of 20, 000,000 tons of ore in sight at the I ron Monarch is based upon that conclusion ?-Yes.

963. As regards the quantit ies of ore available in South you have given us estimates,

and as regards t he quality of the ore you have given us analyses ?-Yes. 964. By J.l£1· . . Watkins.-You cannot tell us whether any one ton of the ore which you have described would be a marketable product in the manufacture of bessemer steel for instance ?-No. 965. By Mr. Joseph Cook. - You cannot tell us whether at t he present time a ny of this iron ore

is of a ny use to Australia for the purpose of making steel '1--That is hardly a question for me to answer .

(Taken _ at MelbouT ne. )

WEDNESDAY 18TH FEBRUARY, 1903.

Commissioners prese,;,t:

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman. Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Winter Cooke, Mr. L. E. Groom,

Mr. McCay, Mr. Watkins, Mr. Watson.

William J amieson, sworn a.nd examined.

966. By the Chai1·man.-You are chairman of directors of t he Blythe River Iron Mines Company Limited ?-Yes. 967. You gave evidence before a select committee on the Bonus Bill in September last ?-Yes. 96 8. The vie ws and statements you t hen gave and made are still yours 7-Yes.

969. I think Mr. Keats was chiefly interested in making the arrangements in England ?-Y es. H e was sent home two years ago, and has been t here nearly ever since. 970. H e was there a co uple of years w'hilst the negotiations were in suspense on account of t he parliamentary attitude not being decided on 'I-That is so .

971 . H e has ret urned lately 1- Y es; be has been here about two months. H e came back immediately he found nothing further co uld be done at t hat time. 97 2. His attendance, no doubt, can be procured as a witness?-Very easily, I should think ; he is in Sydney.

97 3. I suppose he is in a better position to speak as to t he suc cessful carrying on of the industry and tha possibility of securing the necessary capital ?-He is in the position that he has actually been in touch wit h financial people, and all financial a rrangements were left in his hands. No doubt he had a lot of information, but the s uccessful carrying out. of the undertaking under the conditions of the

47 \Villiam Jamieson, 18th February, 1903.

1473

Tariff and bonus as proposed depend entirely, of course, upon the expert opinion of Mr. Darby, who was brought out to A ustralia. Mr. K eats does not know any more about iron production than I do.

97 -!. He more with the fin a.nc ial aspect 1-Entirely with t l1e financial aspect. 975. Wheee is Mr. Darby 1-In England. 976. Are the prospects of successfully establishing the industry, if the Bill be passed, the same as they were when you last gave evidence ?-Practically t l1e same. There has been no indication of peo ple

"pulling out " in co nnexion with it; at the same time, if they wished, they could easily do so, on account of t he extreme delay. The are simply left as they were, without any finality being

come to. P eo ple a re willing to open negotiations again. 977. Y ou ha ve no fear of any want of successful negotiations if the terms proposed by the Government we re adopted 1-I have not. 978. You were inclined, when yo u last gave evidence, to favour a protective duty in the first instance1-Y es; chiefly because the bonus and the Tariff are not concurrent, and, speaking generally,

there is very little differ ence between the benefits co nferred by the two methods proposed. The bonus is merely temporary, and in this it is unlike t he bonus under t he Canadian Tariff. Financiers at home felt they wo uld be more satisfi.ed with a Tariff without a bonus, t han with a bonus and a 'l'ariff, as proposed in the Bill. ·when the matter is calculated out a bonus without a 'l'ariff is very little bett er than a Tariff alone.

979. The bonus is £250,000 '1-The bonus is £250,000, b ut it all depends on the output. No doubt the £ 250,000 is a subsidy, but , at the same time, it is evident that a Tariff, would at all events last for a certain number of years. 980. B y M.1· . J oseph Covk. - You would sooner have the system which lasted the .longed­

Decidedl y. In Canada t he Tariff is not only very much higher than t hat proposed in Australia, but t here is a ·much liLrger bonus wh ich lasts for ten yea.rs. Under the Austealian Bill the bonus is limited to £250,000, and by the time we started the work we would not ca1·e very much whether we had the bonus or not, so long as the Tariff was t here.

9 l. By the Chai1·man.-Natural ly, as business men, you look for as much encouragement as you can get 'I-No doubt. There are certain terms under which capital can be obtained, and, I believe, we could get it just as easily without a bonus, so long as t here is a Tariff. 982. That is a Tariff coming into opeeation immediately ?-Yes; and we would be quite willing

to stand on that. IN e came to that con clusion after a good deal of going into t he matter. 983. ""What percentage do you contemplate when you speak of a Tariff that wo uld satisfy you '1-The Tariff as originally proposed would average 15 per cent. 9 '4. That was what yo u hoped for?-We thought that would be the Tariff, and that is

what I heard t he Government proposed to do. The proposal was 15 per cent. for steel rails, and 10 per cent. for pig i1'on , with 25 per cent. for some things ; and if you look into it, it comes down to about per cent. Steel rails would be one of the largest items of our production, and on this the duty was

very neaely 15 pe r cent., and now it is down to 12t. It comes to t his : I feel pretty certain that we would be able t o make capitalists agree to per cent., if it averaged 12 per cen t . right through. The original intention of the GoYernment was, as I have said, 15 per cent ., and that is what we were to get the capital on.

985. Do you think that with a duty of 12 -2- per cent. you co uld make the industry do ?-I think that if the present proposals could be passed as they stand, we could make a "do of it. " 986. That is, instead of the duty coming into operation on proclamation, it should come into operation immediately makes no difference whether it comes into operation immediately, or whether it comes into operation when the wo rks are erected. If it came into operation immediately, it might

interfere with t he business of others. 987. When do you think the works would be in full blast after the passing of a law which iluited you and a half years; t hat is tlte estimate.

988. Do you still pin your faith to Blythe River 1- Yes. 989 . ·where do you propose to smelt t heore ?--In N ew South Wales, near Sydney. That is con­ sidered the best place, although Burnie, Tasmania, would actually be the eheaper place. vVe consider, however, that Burnie is not so good as a distributing point, and New South Wales has other advantages.

990. Such as access to the Australian market ?-Not only that, but we could make use of t he gases produced by putting up a large gas-engine plant. 991. By Mr. J oseph Cook.-You could utilize the waste products?--Y es, that co uld be done successfully near a large city. .

992 . Such as making chemicals d o not know whether that co uld be done. 993. By th e Ch ainnan.-I believe that, in your previo us evidence, you said your _company had acquired some property for t he purposes of works in New South vVales ?-vVe have acqmred property opposite Ryde, on t he P arramatta, alongside the railway. . . .

99 4-5. Did you give us your estimate as to the _consumption of coal m connexwn with the works 7-I belieYe the consumption wo uld run to oOO,COO tons. The actual consumptwn at the works, irrespective of steamers and in other directions, would be about 400,000 t ons, or about 8,000 t ons per week at t he works alone. . . . . .

996 . You have no doubt as to obtamm g quahty of coalreqmred for smeltmg 7-No. 997. You told us before, I think, that you est imated£1,109,000 as the total outlay to establish the works ?-Yes. 99 8. By J.Ir. Jo seph Cook.-You expect the producing capacity of those works to be 150,000 tons per annum ?-Yes. . .

999 . I think you previously told us that the reqmren:ents of A ustraha at the present ti!pe are 140 000 tons ?-No ; t ha.t is the requirements of the Australian Governments only. ' 1000. Have you looked up Cog hlan on the question ?-I believe we did, but it is difficult to get at t he real figures. W e took the trouble of going to the Government books, and I can give you

\Villia.m Jamieson, 18th February, 1903. 48

so mething which Mr. Darby brought a,s sufficiently correct for om purposes m connexion with the kind of stuff we can produce. The figures are as fo llow :-B'lPOlnS. -----

1 y,·, tol· ,·e I N S \'' I Queenslan d. : I I

State Stote ., . t 7 f \i'.A. Ta smrcnia Totals at 1s t Tota's 1800

- " I ' · · ,. · State S. A. State 1 • Register. 0 Reg ister. I (Estimated). 1 Jul;·, 1903. ' J '' ' ----------------------------------------------------- ----------------· Galvanized sheets ... 10,701 10,062 6,099 6,261 5,066 3,000 G5,003 41 ,189 Bhtck sheets .. . ... 2,116 . .. ... ... .. . ... 3,255 2.116 Bars and rods ... .. . 10,453 10,000 3,958 4,729 ... 250 48,300 31,300 R. girders ... ... 1,626 1, 565 892 268 .. . 200 7,000 4,551 Hoops .. . ... 1,144 2,003 1,141 445 ... 100 7,430 4,833 Pig iron ... ... 8,159 9,009 5, 135 9,074 1,430 500 51 2±0 33 307 w.r. pipes ... ... 5,090 { 10,709 W.&C. 6,104} W.&C . 1,0!3 r 1 ,8oo } \W.&C. 1,000 39,563 25,7)6 Plates ... 4,568 6,689 { 3.8 12 7471 102 250 24,874 16,1 68 ... ... P. &S. P. &S. j Rails ... ... .. . 27,300 21,182 12,073 3,505 2,753 2,000 105,860 68,813 Wire 2,166 { 13 percent.} ... .. . . .. 12,821 20,142 11,408 of N.S.W. 500 73,900 . 48,037 1,000 *At this date, when the works should be read y to start, I estimate that the imports will have increased to the totals g iYen in this column. 1001. Do you produce these figures as t he basis of your proposition 7-That is so; that is part of Mr. Darby's report to us. I have another for 1900, and the figures run into £6,627,000 of different iron and steel products. 1002. By llh. L. E. Groom.-The consumption for one year ?-Yes. 1003. By Mr. llfcCay.-Is that Australian or State consumption 7--It is the consumption throughout the Commonwealth. A very large number of these things will not be mad e in this country for a number of years to come, because there is not enough demand to justify the erection of the necessary plant. Mr. Darby has in his mind the amount of material brought out in a big way which we could be able to supply. In connexion with large works other works may be established, such as those for the manufacture of galvanized iron. There will also be cast-iron pipemakers, wiremakers, tin platemakers, and so on, and the figures of Mr. Da,rby are merely to gi,-e some idea of the large amount required in Australia. 1004. By the Chairman.--That is of the consumption of iron in every shape 1-Yes. 1005. By M1·. Joseph Cook.-Are you aware that Co,r;hlan states that the total amount of pig iron required for Australia is 140,000 tons?--I was not aware of that ; I did not think it was anything like as much, but that it was more like 40,000 tons. 1006. I am speaking of the pig iron required for all our requirements 7--'I.'h:J,t is another thing altogether. 1007. Our total pig iron required, according to Coghlan, is something like 140,000 t ons ?-You must have made some mistak"l, or Coghlan is entirely wrong, because the State Governments use nea rly as much as that in steel rails. About 100,000 tons are required for ;steel rails, and 56,000 tons for galvanized sheets, with 40,000 tons for wire. It would take about 230,000 tons of pig iron to produce those manufactured articles here. 1008. Are the figures you have· given the actual importations for tl1e year 1899 ?-The fig ures are got out of the Customs books. I went to a -great deal of trouble in getting them, a.nd found much difficulty because of the different methods adopted in the various States. But all the figures went to show that a very large quantity was used. 1009. Have you any idea what the market for pig iron nlone would be ?-The present market for • pig iron is, roughly, 40,000 tons; but the reason for that is that steel rails, sheets, and all such things are imported. I reckon that the amount of pig iron required for the 250,000 tons of finished ironwork will run into 300,000 tons of pig iron. Some years the quantity would run to much more; but it will require 450,000 tons of actual pig iron to supply what is required for the manufactured finis hed article in Australia. 1010. Mr. Jamieson says, for in stance, that h.is company desire to produce tons of pig iron themselves ?-That is the e timate of the capacity of the works; hut, as Mr. Darby says, the works will be laid out so that they may be enlarged. 1011. But you think there will be at least that consumption ?-Very much more. 'Wi th present contracts, the Government's consumption alone is at least 150,000 tons- that is, of rails, sheets, plates, and girders which the different Governments use. We will require, therefore, in order to meet the Government consumption, to turn out 150,000 tons. W e do not expcd that these are to be the only works in Australia. If, to start with, we put up works to turn out 150,000 tons of pig, that will be enough for a time so far as we are concerned. Othet· works, no doubt, co uld get a certain amount of work. vVe would not stop at pig iron, but would have rolling mills, and manufacture steel plates and steel ingots. 1012. In fact, you would go in for all kinds of iron production 7-- vVe would not go m for galvanizing, tin plating, or wire working.

1475

49 W. Jamieson, 18th February, 1903.

1013. You would, for instance make girders and other large wo l'lc?-W e should make girders. . 1014. Bolts and nuts 1-No; t hat would be a separate industry. We should not go in for pipe­ makmg. I may say we have offers from people at home to put such subsidiary works alon{)'side or as neat· as possible our ' vorks. They would take our sheets and galvanize or tin-plate them ; "we would supply what may be called the middle raw product.

101 5. I understand that the la, test process of manufacture of steel is t hat all is done in one pro­ cess from the ore is done right through as nearly as possible without allowing th e stuff to get

cold. . 10 16. The ore is put in the furnace and co mes out steel 7- Not out of th e furnace, but it is got

m a state which would be pig if it were allowed to cool. It. is passed right through hot t o the steel furnace. 1017. And when it comes out finally it is steel 7- Y es, before it is cold . 1018. Therefore there is only one process in th e manufacture of steel 7-I would not call that one

process, though it goes through from start to finish. 1019. In your former evidence you told us that you wo uld be satisfied with a duty of 15 per cent. at t he various stages where that impost co uld be made; you want 15 per cent. on pig iron as such, and 15 p r cent. when t hat iron is turned into steel never said anything of the kind.

I understood you to say that your company would b e satisfied if they co uld get the duty

brough t into operation immed iately without a bonus 7-Y es; the qualification was that the duty stands a. n ow. 1021. By the Chainnan.- Y ou would be satisfied that t he duty should commence when the works are there 7-Y es.

1022. By it!?-. J oseph Cook.-You would be . satisfied with the duty as it stands in the Tariff A ct 7-Y es. 1023. vVill you look at question 685; does that not mean t hat you want the duty to be

cumulative 7- N o ; you cannot have accumulative du ties ; you on ly get a certain amount of protection. 1024. In answer to question 685-" \Vhat does that you replied-" 15 per cent. ad

valorem; 15 per cent. upon pig iron mea.ns so much, and a similar rate upon steel would, of course, mean so much more; I mean 15 per cent. upon the article at the time of the impost" 7-That is quite right, and I will show you what I mean. Supposing we did not make steel, but turned the stuff into pig iron; we have to run t he stuff into th e fumace for t hat, and we get 15 per cent. protection on the pig iron. If we run it into steel ingots or steel rails we get· 15 per cent. on that product. But we do not get 15

per cent. on one and also on the otheL This is a duty, and not a bonus; if the question were ask ed in regard to a bonus I could understand it . In Canada they get 12s. 6d. for every ton of pig and for every ton of steel produced from the pig. 1025. I wanted to he clear as to whether you were not thinking of the Canadian system 7- That only affects the a nd not the Tariff ; the Tariff is only a protection which everybody and anybody gets. If we are to get the benefit for the manufacture of steel, we will not get it unless we manufacture steel.

. 1026. When, in reply to question 685, you say it will "mean so much more," you mean the value of the in got will be so much more than the value of the pig ?-The cost of production will be so much more. 1027. By J/1 ·. Watkins. - Do you think there is any possibility of your company competing successfully without a duty or· a bonus ?-All I know is that we cannot mise t he money to create the company or erect t he works unless we have a duty ; t hat is t he sum total of the whole thing. I cannot

say anything about wh ether it will or will not pay ; that is a matter for the fut ure, and for expert evidence. But we cannot raise the money unless we get protec tion. 1028. A re those lodes in Tasmania equal to anything you have seen in England ?-They are better than anything I have ever seen. There is another big deposit in South Australia, but

t he Tasmanian is th e biggest I have seen. 1029. I s the South Australian ore of the same class as that you have in Tasmania 7-Yes j it is hematite, and very good ore. .

1030. By 11£1-. L. E. Croom.-And is the South Australi::tn ore equally good for smelbn ct purposes ?- I dare say it is. I have never seen the mines; but I do not believe really that you can get t here so large a quantity of ore as can be got at Blythe River. The latter also beats the other on the score of position and accessibility. .

1031 . By the Chctinnan.- Blythe River is close to the sea 7- W e are 5 miles from the sea, and 500 miles from Sydney; while the other deposit i:;; 40 mil es from t h e sea, and 1, 250 miles from 0 1032. By 11!£?·. Watlcins.-Do iron manufacturers f rom England . not convey ores co.nsid erably longer· distances than those you have mentioned 7- Y es; t he furtlwc; t pomt from whJCh ore IS taken to England is Spain, though a little is imported from America. . . 1033. By Jl!b-. McCay.-I s not a good deal of Swedish ore Im ported mto England ?- A good dea.l, but th e imported ore is chiefl y Spanish. . . . 1034. By Jib· . Watkins.- Have you considered the questwn of frc1ghts-that IS, the usual charge for exports to Australia from England and America?- Y es.. . 1035. What do th ey generally run ?- I t depends entirely upon ctrcumstan?es, t hey vary very much. F or instance, if a sailer or steamer is going f rom Glasgow to the for t rm ber, and .takes pig-iron for " stiffening," the freight may be as low as 2s. or 3s. pel' ton ; while If you "a1 .1t a special lot of, say, 100 tons, as I did on one occasion, it willru.n to 13s. 6d . per ton, and may go as lugh as l 5s. 6cl. It all depends on how you ship, and when the stuff I S wanted. . . 1036 . By J111·. J oseph Cook. - What would ?ther· .he?- Very httle; the quotatwns are generally f. o.b. You may reckon t he a:erage on p1g 1ron will run m to lO.s per ton. . , . 1037. Where does the Glasgow 1:-ng a·on come from 7- From not very far away, BaH·ds bemg the biggest place, about 20 mile:; dist::mt. I haYe neYer been through the mill s, but t here are mn.ny places F.1050l. :E

,V. Jamieson, 18th P elwuar.1·, 1903. 50

not far nway from Glasgow where t hey manubcture 1ron. In t he matter of freights, steel mils are affected in t he way t o some extent. vVb en we we re bringing out mils for a speci;Ll railway, it cw;t 25s. per ton to land them a t Burnie. A nd yet t he N ew Sout h Wales Gove rnment showed me t hat their ave rage rate for importing rails over t en years was 12s. 6cl. per t on. It is a, mat ter of when and how

yo u want the 'l'he Go vernmen t a rc a,lways wanting rails, a nd they mak e special arrange­

ments, and, in some instances, get t h e mils brough t al most fo r paying for putting them on board. I have known people get as much as 2s. per ton for placing stuff on board as dead weigh t . I 038. Added t o the 12s. Gel. per t on , tl10rc are also t he clu es and charges at the other end ?­ Everything is quoted. h ee on board.

l 03\) . I am t alking ab out additions to t he prime cost 7- It migh t a mount to 4s. or 5s. At

Middlesbrough they ship material n.t a cost of J s. or 5s., and sometimes 3s. or 4s. 1040. B y Jl!1· . Watkins.-\ Vill £ 1 covet' the whole thing 7- 0n R.n average tha t would cover t he cost of freigh t, insurance, &c. 10 4 1. B v Jlb-. J oseph Cook. - And t h e same wi th pig iron ?- 'l'here is a great difference in the han dling ; pig i ron is chucked in anyhow.

1042. No. They h ave to place it ?-But i t is very easily handled. The value of it is less, and there is plenty of it a t home to be shipped.

1043. B v Jlf?o. JV atkins.- You say you ar e thinking of esta.blishing the works close to Sydney ?­ That is our intention. We have estimates for both B urnie and Sydney. We have looked a t

1044. Bv the Chcti1'1nan.-But there would not be t he same facilities for distribution at Burnie 1 - No.

1045. B y Jlfr. Wa tkins.- And t hat is your chief reason for choosing Sydney?-Y es ; and there is also t he fact that we should make use of a amount of t he waste products. At Burnie there

would be no room for that . At the lat t er place we have bought all the flat land a t the mouth of the river which can be procured, ·and there is not more than would be required for our works. 1046. By Jlb ·. J oseph Coolc. - I understand you propose to ha ve special barges built to convey the ore '!--There are special whale-back ships or stea mers built for carrying ore ; and, of course, they would do for carrying coal.

1047. Have you made any·estimat e of the cost per ton of carrying the ore to Sydney ?-The vessels I have des cribed ca rry ore at a very low rate in America. It is almost impossible to believe it, but they carry ore 800 odd miles at 2s. 1d. per ton. •

104R. Carnegie's coal is carried 80 miles on the railway for i o of a cent. per ton per mile'!-­ Something like t hat. vVhen passing through America, l\fr. D arby got the contract cost of getting Lake Superior ore to Pittsburg, and it was under 6s. , including 300 miles by rail. 1049. And a truck can take 50 tons?-"\Vith the easy grades there may be 500 tons in a

train load. 1050. By jJ[r. W atlcins. - I s it your opinion that the whole of this industry will practically r asolve itself into the hands of one firm who will supply all Australia 1- I do not think so, because there is bound to be a certain amount of competibon as things go on . The people of South Australia might come to the conclusion that it was time for them t o make use of their advantages; while Mr. Sandford at Lithgow considers he also would be able to start.

1051. It appears t hat differ ent people are after money in England for the development of the industry. Assuming you were successful, would other people, in view of the prospect, be likely to be successful alongside you ?- Their opinion is t hat they would; I do not know. 1052. By Jl£1·. J oseph Coole. - You, of course, would try and stop competition 7-They wou ld try to stop us I expect.

1053. By 111-. IV atkins.- vVould not one works supply the wants of all Australia ?- Iron works big enough, no doubt, would. 1054. \Vould t he works require to be of abnormal size to do so 7-No. 1055. Could not Carnegie supply, in a week, more tha,n we could use in t welve months ?­ I would not say that, but h e could supply more than we want. Our works would supply 150,000 tons a year, and A ustralia requires practically nearly t hr ee times that amount.

l055A. By ,Job·. Watson.- If all the loc::tl m;1chinery were manufact ured from local iron there would be plenty of room for expansion ?-In Queensland, Conclurry there is a splendid iron deposit. 'l'hen there is South Australia where we find a very fine body of ore, and there is N ew South Wales and, no doubt, vVestern Australia. The local freights are so heavy that people in those States may be induced to create works, a nd coal mines might be found close to t he large iron lod es, and so on.

1056. B ut you would require a certain output before it would be profitable to work 7- It would have t o be a good output. -

1057. And local consurnption would not be sufficient for the establishment of extensive works?- · I do not know ; it depends on what you call local. I 058. Take the State of Queensland for example 1- Queenslancl is an immense territory wl1ere iron and steel would be used. I only know that i t is better to start where the population is thickes t and where most of th e st uff is used. ·

1059. Have you gone into t he q uestion as to where you will be able t o export from Australia in the e vent of your getting the works established ?-To som e extent I have. When we were first looking into the question a gentleman, who was cons ulting engineer in connexion with a rail way being built in E cquador, South AmericR., and who was in tere .>ted in this sort of thing, came to see our mine. The gentleman was calling for tenders for about 100,000 tons, a nd he said tha t if we had been at work we

:)l

1477

\V. Jamieson, 18th Fchr uar .1·, 1003.

ough t to ha ve been successful in that co nnexion, because in America they have to send to the sea coast and come round Cape Horn to get to Ecquador. Had we been acL ua ll y at work we woulrl have CYOt that contract, and specLking on thill subject, M r. Da rby says:-0

Steel mils ],;t,·c rccen Lly (No ,·c mbc t· 1900) beo 1t sent from You ngstown, O!t io, for t ltc 1\'cw %calancl <; 01·ernment. 'l'he d istance is :1bout 12,000 milcR, while from Sydney it is 011 iy I, 170 m iles. . Jt wi ll be noticed hy a g la nce at the following. table, whel'c the :1 pprox imatc d istances arc g i1·cn, Umt Sydney tS fa 1·?mbly for t he supply of steel 111 the east. t han n,ny other producing point. The Union I ron

and Steel \\ Ol'ks, San l• m ncJ. ·co, arc at present 111 t ho poRitiO n. San Francisco to Hong Kong Syd ney to Hong Ko 11 g Sha ng ha i

B:1tavia Calcutta Bombay

,, Cape Town

Li I'O l'[J OOl to Calcutta ,

Bat:1via Hong -l( on g New %cabnd

U,O l !} N.l\1. 4 GUO ,

4: G40 ,

H,870 ,

5,8 10 "

() ,110 (), 1:37 7,GGH , by Canal

ll , ::17!) , by Cape

,

12,776 "

11 ,():2:) by i.Ja pc Horn

l OGO. Can you say wh ether your expert opinion as to the probable cost of p rod uction justifies the impression tluLt you wou ld be nble to co mpeLe with American a,nd other manufacturers, su,y t hat your work s :1re established and in working order ?- If we we re in fu ll swing and saw a chance of cutting in for 20,000 or 30,000 tons of steel mils, we migh t go on :1t hi gh pressure, and might be able

to compete. Many a tim e manufactu rers woul d sooner take a low contract, in ordC' t' to keep th eir men goin g. As to making m u ·h money in competing with America, tlutt wou ld depend on t he state of aHlLirs at t he t im e. If American manufacturer · were fu lly employed, t hey migh t not care to put in a low tender ; but otherwise they migh t put in such a low on e as t o mn,kc it almost im possible for us to de

B ut, as I say, our works were not fu lly employed, and we sttw a chance of running at :1 high

rate of speed and keeping our men in wo rk , no do ubt we mi ght get so me of t hose contracts, especially if China goes :1h ead . I feel it quite on the cards that we would "come in " sometimes. lO G l. By Jl!? ·. Jll cCay.-Y ou cout.emplate doing t hat at special cutting rates, practically ?-- That migh t be so at a t im e when things were very slack, and we cou ld not fully employ our mills. If " 'e then saw :1 chance, we woul d be sure to cut in.

l 062. '\Vhatever your motive, you would do it at a cutting rate, as compared with Australian prices ?- That mi gh t or might not be; there might be others here to compete with us. B ut if t hings were slow, soo ner t han stop the works we would do at a low rate in A ustra li

1064 Not when conditions were normal do not t hink it possible when conditions are

normal. There can only be one opinion; before we n,ttempt to get outside contract.s we must have been running so me time, in order t o have fo un d our position. 1065 . Of course, all we ca.n go on is the evidence of experts, whose opinions ought to be valuable. You see no prospect at present , under norm al conditions, of A ustralian iron competing with outsid e iron 7-I would not say t hat ; if we get properly as works are in

A merica, I do not know but t hat we might compete. But \Ye do not propose to put up works la,rger than a re necessary t o supply A ustrnJia. 1066. So long as you get the demand, th e larger th e works t he cheaper t he cost of That helps t o make things cheaper when t he wo rks are in full swing. Onr idea is to put up works for

this co untry; and from a certain u,m ount of curiosity we had that list of distances made out . 1067. A nd you thin k t hat Sydney has special geographical advantages 7-Yes. B ut whether local circum stnnces will permit of our benefi ting by t h ose advantages is another thing. 1068 . I t hink you stated that if you had a duty of 15 per cent. you would not insist on :1 bonus as a prelimiuary?-The bonus at present as suggested is l :3s. 6d . per ton, and if you take per cent. on, say £ 6, it is about l 5s. W e only g-et l2s. 6d. as a bonus and no duty. In th e matter of steel rails

we are better off under a Tariff of 12-& per cent .; but , as to pig iroll, we would get 12} per cent. on, say, 70s., or Ss. Gel. But as we do not intend to produce a large quantity of pig iron, the Tariff is practically better than t he bonus. I do not think we shall produce more than 30,000 or 40,000 tons to be sold as pig. The duty and t he bonus come dow n so close that they wo ul d be the same. .

1069. So taking it all round, wit h t he duty of 12} per cent., and no bonus, you could go on w1th the work ?-Quite as well as with the bonus when they are not concuiTent. The bonus makes so little difference t h at we would prefe r t he 'rariff. 1070. In making up the estimate of the probable output did you look for any demand from any other State t han that in which t he works a,re sit uated ?- 1;v e should expect to be reasona,bly treated by t he other States. Supposing th e other State Governments cnllcd for world·wide temlers, and our tender

was equal to one outside, we should exp ct to receive the preference. 1071. I n t his connexion , have you considered the effect that freights beill'een Sydney, where your works are proposed, and South Australia, \ ¥ estern Australia, parts of l:aYc

in bringing you m.ore nearly into competit ion, or more evenly mto compehtwn w1th outs1de u·ou Y es. •

1072. That is t he freight between Sydney and Ft·emantle would reduce your advantage of 15 per cent. considerably would affect us very much. But it would not affect us to such an extent as might at fi rst appear in connexion with special lots. If \Vcstem Australia required 10,000 tons of steel rails we sh ould immediately charter a vessel specially, Ol' make some arrangements \\'ith a vessel as to get f reigh t cheaper.

107 3. B y the Chai?·num.-You wou ld haYe time to look round ?- Certainly; by the time Lhc rails were wan ted we would very li kely have hold of a vessd under some armngement. E 2

'"· Jamieson, 18th February, 1903. 52

1074. By .llf1·. Winter Cooke.-I understand that yo u do not think the company co uld live with out a protective dut.y 1-I do not think so. 107 5. H ow long do you think it would take before the company would be able t o supply Australia with all the iron required 7-W e should expect to be able to supply half, or perhaps a little less than half, within two or three years .from t he time t he works were finished.

1076. In the meantime, in regard to the other half, the consumer would be paying more for his iron than he would pay if there was no duty 7-I would not say that. I should not t hink that he would. It is rather an intricate business. W e propose t o produce only certain classes such as pig iron and steel rails. All other classes of machinery or special fini shed articles will very likely be made abroad for many years to come, and they have always had to pay duty. Boilers, engines, and those classes of machinery have to pay duty at the present time.

1077. It would be some years before any company co uld supply A ustralia with all the iron such a company could make 7-It would be some time. B ut t he quantity we produced would be very nearly as much as would be required of that class, such as rails, sheets, and girders. 1078. Then why do you want protection if things are still coming a ll the .·ame7-Th ere would be other things; a great deal of them will no t be made in this country for many years to come because they are specialities. 'l'he curious point is that in every part of the world this industry has been assist ed, and Australia has no reason to be in a different posit ion from t hat of any other country. The precedent is so strong for giving assistance by means of the 'l'ariff or otherwise, t hat t he effec t is that we can not raise money without such assistance.

1079. The duty yo u ask for is merely an estimate 7-Y es. 1080. Then it may be found t hat t his guesswork of 12f or 15 per cent. is not suffi cien t 7-I would not call it mere g uess \vork. Men, before they were prepared to put down t heir money, sent out an experienced man to get t he necessary data. That gentleman was introduced to this co untry merely as a nominee of others at home. vVe had the paying of his accounts, but he was nominated by those at home as the man who could give them the best opinion. ·

1081. W e are aware t hat the estimate was carefully made ; but, t he industry having been es tablished, if the estimate were proved to be wrong, what would happen-an application for more duty 'l--In going into a business of this description or any new business, you cannot make a dead certainty; you have to run risks. What you mean is t hat there is a possibility we might ask for more duty.

1082. That has been t he ex perience in Victoria, at all events 7-That may be; but I cannot look into t he future. 1083. That is a danger I wish to point out '!--Then t he best thing would be to make t he duty 20 per cent. at once.

1084. In reply to Mr. Watson, I think you said there was no hope whatever of private enterprise starting this industry without the assistance of the State 7-N one. 1085. By jlf1·. L . E. G1·oom.-You wo uld be satisfied with a duty of per cent. on every item on the list you handed in 7-Tha t would be an average. At t he time that list was made out by Mr. Darby t he idea was that we were to get a duty of 15 per cent. and a bonus, the two to be concunent. But under the arrangement which was made just before the recess the duties will average about per cent.

1086- 7. That list shows the articles which it is contemplated will be manufactured at the works? - Yes; all the middle raw material we should prod uce, from which other articles co uld be manufactured. 1088. And you say t hat if you got on an average a duty of per cent . instead of bonus you wo uld be satisfied 7--Y es.

1089. Your idea, of course, is that the Tariff will be fix ed for some time 7-Y es, the works will be created under the idea that t he Tariff will last for a long time. 1090. By the Ghai?"'lnan.-I do not understand you to say that you would be satisfied with I 2! per cent. on the manufactm·ed article, and do not want any duty in respect of the middle raw material 7

- Oh no ; our business would be to produce those middle raw materials. 1091. A nd leave Rubsidiar·y and more developed to separate peopl e ?- Certainly.

(Taken ctt M elbourne.) THURSDAY, 19TH F EBRUAHY, 1903.

Commissione1·s p1·esent : The Right R on. C. C. KINGSl ' ON, Chairman, Mr. J oseph Cook, · I l\1r. McCay,

Mr. Cooke, Mr. vVatkins,

Mr. L. E. Gt·oom, M r. Watson.

vVilliam Sandford, managing director of E skbank Ironworks, Lithgow, New South W ales, swor n and examined. 1092. By the Cha?:1' ?1Wn.--Wh ere do you live7-At Lithgow, in New South Wale . . !093. I understand you have been resident in New South Wales for 20 years 7-Yes. 1094. You had so me experience in iron · manufactm e before you came to Australia?--Y es, con­ siderable. I was sent ou t as the representative of one of the most successful ironworks of t he old co untJ·y, those of Mr. J ohn Lysaght, to star t t heir works on t he P arramatta Hiver.

1095. You started those works 7-I did. 1096. You were connected with them for some time ?-For two years, and until there was a n opportunity to take up t he ironworks in Australia, which t hey were about closing. I suggested to Mr. Lysaght t hat he should take up t he works at Lithgow and go on wo rking t he two places. H e wrote back to say that their ow n interests were so great that t hey would no t do it for the present. My reason for suggesti ng t hat he should take the wo rks was this: The Government often wanted

53

1479

W. Sandford, • 19th February, 1903.

gauges and sizes n.nd lengths of galvanized iron which could not be obtained here, ttnd consequently the orders for that iron went elsewhere. I suggested that we should put down a couple of mills there to make what could not be had in Australia, and thereby retain all the trade in our own hands. Mr. Lysaght did not agree with the suggestion, and I then said tbttt if in six months' time he would send somebody out to relieve me I would take up the works. My successor cttme out and I took up the works. I rented them for seven years with the power to purchase, and before that time expired I purchased the works, and have carried them on ever since.

· 1097. Those a re the E skbank Ironworks at Lithgow 'I-Yes. When I went over the works at Lithgow I was satisfied from t he position of the coal, limestone, iron ores, water, clay, and sand, that sooner or later, taking into

have paying during the last three or four yean; an average amount of £1,000 per week in wages and sa.lanes, and £ 10,000 per year in railway freights, up to t he last twelve months, wh en the supplies of scrap iron, which was our raw material, failed, and, as a consequence, the works have only been carried on intermittently since.

109R. I desire to know the nature of the operations carried on at the Eskbank works. Do you produce pig iron from the ore at E skbank 7- No; there is no pig iron made from the ore in Australia. 1099. You might indieate the nature of the works you conduct there 1-When I started the works there were immense quantities of raw material availttble in the shape of scrap iron. The Railways

Commissioners in N ew South Wales had thousands of tons of it., and I have seen some of it sold at as low as 5s. per ton. The advantage of having the coal at Lithgow, and of being able to take the scrap iron available there, is what induced me to establish the ironworks there. Since then we have been using the old material purchased from the Ne w South Wales Govemment, and I have made contracts with them at times for as much as 10,000 tons and 7,000 tons at a time, to be delivered as we wanted it where it

was to be worked up. 1100. Delivered

there is very little wrought-iron scrap to be had. 1101 . As to the rates; may I say that the terms you got in the first instance for the delivery of tbe material

say t hat the price has advanced from time to time until our last contract for old rails with the New South Wales Government was at £4 16s. 6d per ton. 1102. By .Mr. L. E. G1·oom.-That is simply for the raw material which you have known to be sold at one time at 5s. per ton 1-Yes.

1103. By the Chai1·man. - The advance in price has of course increased the difficulty of your trade ?-Certainly. Victorian rails now purchased h er e are tttken to Sydney or Newcastle, according to the best freights offering, and then taken on to Lithgow by train. To show the disadvantages under which we are working, we have now to pay 2s. 6d. per ton wharfage at Sydney, ls. 6d. per ton for unloading and putting the material on the trucks, and Ss. per ton freight to Lithgow by rail. That makes lls. 6d per ton, and then we h

1104. vVere you previously permitted to deliver t he manufactured article at a lowet· rate ?-Never under lOs. 6d. per ton to Sydney. The figures I have given show that the New South vVales Railways Commissioners must be making a profit on our contracts ; because they take empty trucks to Lithgow and bring back coal in them to Sydney for 4s. 3d. per ton, while we take loaded trucks at Ss. per

ton to Lithg0w, and send the same trucks back to Sydney with iron at lOs. 6d. per to1i freight. This that there has been a good profit to the railways on the traffic to and from Lithgow. . .

1105. vVill you describe the industries you are carrying on there?-We take the scrap Iron mto the works at one end, and cut it up with powerful shears. We mix it in the furnaces into the bloom, ttnd then with a powerful hammer we hammer and roll it off into rough bars. We pile those bars one on top of another and we work them again three or four times over according to the quality of iron wanted.

Every time the material is worked there is a considerable wast e, and, taking an average, from 26 to 27 cwt. of scrap iron and rails aoes into the works for every ton of finished iron coming out. So that we have to pay a freight of 8s. ton on the extra 7 cwt. of railway scrap iron for ea?h of

manufactured iron. vVe make it into bars from -1--in. rounds up to 4-l; inches and mtermedtate stzes, and into squares and plates of half-an-inch, and roll everything between that and 12 inches wide of any thickness wanted. according to the orders received. vVe roll t ees, and channels. vVe the

bars from the bar mills to the sheet mills, and there eonvert them mto :;heets. I expect the bar m1lls to nmke a little profit fot: the sheet mills. vVe usually roll .sheets to sizes. For instan.ce, the R ailways Commissioners, for their baffler plates , get a certain size 3-nd and have thmr We

roll iron required for the Government in all sizes which arc not kept m stock m 1hen we make sheets, galvanized and corrugated sheets. We take the sheets ?ver to the galvamzmg department, and they are there pickled, galvanized, and corrugated, and packed mto t he t rucks.. Then we have put down a powerful plant, and one of the best in Australia, for the manufacture of sptkes for the Government. W e have a contract with the Government for railway dog- spikes, and we keep stocks of them at the works. W e guarantee to k eep 100 cases always in hand, and when they want them they send

up to us for them. 1106. By Jlf?·. JlfcCctv.- What would be the weight in each case ?-They go about six cases to the ton. We have recently established a large shop 360 fe et long, for making points and crossings for the Government. vV e fi tted it with machinery costing over £5,000, and we made some 50 sets. U nfor­

tunately, it was a mistake. l thought t lt at when we had the bl ast furnace and made rails there wol.lld

• W. Sandford, lilth FelJl·uary, 1003 54

allmys be short which could go into points and crossings, but though we have t lt e latest appliances there for the purpose, unfortunately tho works arc idle. W' e h:we our own smiths' shop and eugineo ring shop, and at one part of the works I have my own brickyard, where I make my own fire bricks, mH.l ordinary bricks. At anothei' part I have my own colliery, of which I produce a photograph. I raise my own coal close to the works, and it comes clown to the works by gravitation. 'l'here arc, as I ha\·e sa.icl, also the bar mills, sheet mills, spike-making shop, railway points ancl crossing8 shop, and galvanized iron works. A s the works are established, scrap iron comes in at one end :mel the manufactured article goes out loaded OJL trucks at the other encl. I omitted to say just n ow, on the 1-mbjcd of the freights upon the finished iron that, iron sent from Lithgow to the west is catTiod

1107. Do you that they carry iron cheaper west from Sydney than from Esbank ?-Yes, cheaper in proportion to the mileage. 'l'he freight per ton between Sydney and Bourke is 40s., while our freight is 38s. 6d., or something like that. That give t1 s an advantage over Sydney of on ly 1s. 6cl. per ton. 1108. How many mile;; is L ithgow from Sydney miles, and Sydney is the port.

I may say that, seeing that quantities of steel Ecrap could be had at a reasonable rate, I got a Siemens­ lVIartin Steel furnace there about two years ago. I thought we co uld convert the steel scrap into steel blooms and billets, which we had imported, partly of manufactured steel, and rolled into sizes that are wanted. I believe we could make it cheaper, but I had some trouble with t he men who came to work it up, and I found we co uld import steel blooms and billets cheaper than we could make ther!l there, and so I stopped the work, and paid the passages of some of the men back again. If I could have had the cheap pig iron we want, the steel furnace would have gone on, and larger steel furnaces would have ·been erected.

1109. You feel that the great disadvantage in your business is the want of a cheap supply of ·pig iron ?-Certainly ; that is what we are starving for. 1110. You are relying upon imports ?-vVe can import blooms and billets of steel and roll them. ·The day before I came away a gentleman from B elgium C

works in Belgium with regard to the supply of sheet iron they are now rolling there, and he showed me that he could land sheet iron in Sydney at 15s. per ton cheaper than the bare cost of making it at Eskbank. 111 1. That is making it at Eskbank out of imported steel blooms an d billets?- Yes; and scrap mixed. vVe add a certain quantity of iron, which I need not explain to the Commissio n.

1112. If the manufactmed article can be landed here cheaper than you can manufacture from the -raw material you are out of it ?-That is how we stand to-day ; but if I could get cheap pig iron I should not care for anybody. 1112A. A local supply of pig iron would, in your opinion, be of great advantage to A ustralia?­

Yes. I should not care where in Australia it was made so long as I co uld buy it cheap. 1113. You have lately been contemplating the extension of your ironworks to include the manu­ facture of pig iron 1-Not lately, but for many years. I have always had it in view, because I have always believed that N ew South ·wales should be the home of the iron and steel industry of A ustralia ;

that is until we find out that there is room for half-a-dozen works in A ustralia. Of course we cannot confine the industry to Lithgow, but I say that, in my opinion, Lithgow is the best place. 1114. You have seen the proposals of the Government as embodied in the Bonuses fo r lVIanufac-tures .Bill. Do you think t hat the proposals for granting bonuses on the terms mentioned would -assist the establishment of the industry by inducing the investment of capital in these works?­ . Certainly ; and we should never get capital for the industry without some such encouragement. I can

ask members of the Commission whether if they were in a position to p ut £100,000 into this industry they would be prepared to do so without any encouragement. People are the same all over the world, and before they put money into a thing they want to know how their capital will be secured. 111 5. You are speaking not only from the personal view, but from your experience in connexion with these matters ?-Certainly.

1116. Have y'ou been home youn:;elf, 1\Ir. Sandford 1-I have been home three times during the last five years in connexion with this Yery matter, and I have made all inquiries . Before I decided to go into this concem I wanted to know how cheaply iron could be made in other parts of the world, and I have been through America anJ on the continent of Emope. I wanted also to see whether there .would be any doubt about our ores here and so foi'tb. I may mention that Mr. Enoch James, who is ·considered one of the best experts in England in t h e ma,nufacture of pig iron, was sent with t hree other

experts as commissioners appointed by the British Iron Trade Association to inquire into the iron, steel, and allied industries of the United States. I have here the reports of t he commissioners in a volume entitled--" American Industrial Cond itions and Co mpetition." At a cost to me of one t housand guineas Mr. James came out anrl went through Lithgow. He went down the coal mines, got the coal himself,

and made his own coke iu his own way, and never lost ;;ight of it. He went to Cm·coar, to Cowra, to Cadi

start the works. After getting his opinion to what co uld be done in Australia, I was satisfied that the of Now South 'VaJes would look after t he interests of t heir o·wn State, and I believed,

as I believed in my own exist e nce, that we should have had the Bonus Bill passed. 1\Ir. James brougl!t out various tenders for a blast fumace, :tnd rccommenclccl D:wey Bros. of Sheffield, who a re the la rgest onake t·s of this d asH of plan!". The blast ful'lliLCC was put in ha11tt the J3vnus Bill would be passed.

55 W. Sandford, February, 1n03,

1481

. 1117. You give proof that yon < LL'e as to the pos:; ibiiit,y of CKtctbli:;hiag the industry by the

lllYe;;tmen t of thi:; moncy?- I could give no better proof. I was willing to ri:;k the money. 'When I home I saw a gentleman connected with one of t he most successful ironworks in England, and he

.·a1d- " If your fi gures are righ t, and the Bonus Bill passes, we shall be prepared to J:mt moHcy into it."

This was on bottom tenus; I valued the work:;, and showed him my balance-sheets, and he said t lmt he and others could make up £250,000, and nameR co uld be got making up £750,000 if nece:;sary. \Vc nmde an agreement to spend £ 250,000, ctnd had books printed :1nd cve1·ything ready to take up the work u.t a ny t ime; but members of t he Commis:ion knew what the res ult was following upon the uncertainty

connected with th e Bill. 111 8. If the Bill wct·e to pas:; now, I suppose t hose negotiations have not bee11 broken off in any way7- No; if (,he Bill we re to pass now, I should cable at once to my son to immediately ship the blast funmce. \ Ve have a rranged with the owners of t he Ca,rcoat· property to take their iron ores at a low

royalty, hence my fi gures are sli gh tly different hom those of Mr. Jacquet with regm·d to t he cost of making iron. I may say that 1\'[r. Enoch J amol:l has been engaged in connexion wit h th e work evm· since, tmd I am payin g him 100 guineas per mont h, ::;o t hat all plans slmll be ready for coke ovem; on the latest Jnodorn principle, and everyt hin g cou ld go on at t he presen t time.

1119. H ave you personally examinerl the condition:; of the iron industry of other co untries ?­ Y es. 1120. You have been in America 7-Yes; I have been through [Lll the importa,nt iron i ndustries there ; and I ttLke in the reports and publications relating to the industry.

11 21. You have been in Canada also7-Yes. 1122. You make acquainted with the possibilities of your busine 7- Yes. I always try

to sec t he next best t hing to do. I have had the co urage to do it, hence my success. 11 23. The chief difficulty in conuexion with t he starting of the industry i:; t he getting of t he capital?-Yes; that is t he crux of the whole thing. 1124. And that is the d ifliculty which the bonus gets over7-Certainly, it secures the capit:d.

11 25 . The capital once secured an-1 t ho works started, you have no doubt ar; t o the future of the indu.-try 1-I should not be prepared to risk everything, as I am, if I had. 1l2G. Have you fo rmed any estimate as t o the cost of production of iron a t L ithgow ?-Yes, I have.

11 27. Are you prepared to reply to a question as to what your es tinJate of the cost ?- Y cs, I am. After supplying modern bla:;t furn aces, thoroughly well equipped , and ewry necessary appliance, from material already secured in t he shape of the iron ore, coal, tmd limestone', pig iron could be pro­ duced at Lithgow for under 35s. per ton.

1128. That, of cou rse, would be a rate which would enable you to compete with foreign com peti­ t ion 1-Y es. I may say that I f01·m ed my judgment in part from tho action taken by a member of the Commission when Minister for Mines in "'ew South Wales, in appointing .l\ir. J acquet to inquire into t he question. Mr. Joseph Cook has, in my opinion, done as much ot· more than any other man in New South 'Vales in connexion with thi l:l nmtter by appointing an expert like Mr. Jacquet to see what we have in Australia,. Jacquet's conciusions were confirmed by l\ir. Enoch James, and I mtty say that

when Mr. Enoch J ames was here we bad over a dozen applications outside of known properties from people willing to supply us with ore, show ing that the industry on ly wants to be set going for the manu­ facture of pig iron, to have a number of works started in A ustralia . The best thing ever done fot· the iron industry of Australia was what was done by :M:r. J-oseph Cook. It was action anticipating th e next

best thing to do, and it was done. 1129. B y il11·. McC'ay .- I am not quite sure that I understand what you mean when you say that pig iron could b e produced at Lithgow for under 35s. per ton. I s that taking everything into account 7-I give that as a n estimate of the net cost at Lithgow.

1130. B y the C'hcti1·man.-You n,ssume that the works shoold be established, and t hat wo uld of involve a large initial expenditure ?-Certainly. [To make pig iron alone you want a plant

involving an expenditure of from < £:. 100,000 to £125,000. 11 31. By Jllb-. Joseph C'oolc. - How many furnaces would that include1- ' Ve should only with one. The furnace we were goi ng to erect would turn out 500 tons per week; but the sa,me furnace would work up to 1,200 tons per week when required. vVe have machinery on the ground to

co nsume 12,000 to 1:3,000 tons of pi g iron per annum. It t

then the expense is practically all ·in ln,bour. A small sum must be allowed for royalty on ore and CO [Ll and for depreciation of machinery, and the rest of the expense is in labo.ur. .

1133. By })!? ·. J oseph Cook.-Your estimate of 35s. por ton IS on the ore

would be brought from Cadia 1-N o, from different parts around--Carcoar, Cowra, and Cadia. 113±. By Jlf r . Wa tson.- You are averaging the cost from those centres of !supply 7-

Yes. Taking the ores from the properties around which we Rec u.red. \\ the Ltst few

t here has beendiscovered a splendid deposit within fifteen 1ml e!-! of Lithgow, giVmg GG per cent. of Iron, with simply a trace of sulphur aud phosphorus. . .

1135. JJy the Chainnan.-l£ you yo.ur local works. unde.r the proposed,

with the advantage of a bonus ttnd a duty, do you t hmk It woulrlrewlt man mcrease 111 the locnl price of piO' iron or the reverse 1-The reverse. 0 11 36. You have no doubt of t hat?- T have not. 1 can speak from my own experience in starting wire netting works at Parramatta. \V c reduced the price by something like 20 per cent. The effect of making our own pig iron will be grea,t indeed. It would asHi st works as Clyde wo rks and other

iron industries. You will have noticed that South Australia had a contract for 9,000 tons of pipes. They cou ld be made at T"it hgow and shippNl from Rydney in Nr.t only Xl'w Rout h 'Vales,

h ut al l t,hc Htates would reap bcnef-ib from lw1·ing the ra11· Jnaterial of iron indudri(•f> madr-. One cannot calculnlc the ad vantages iu connexion witl1 cu,:; in ecring wurks ancl in other 11·np.

W. Sandford, 19th Februar,v, 1903. 56

11 37. You believe that a bonus is needed to induce capital to invest in t hese industries, and that afterwards, with a duty, you could compote and hold yom own '1-Certainly. 1138. And with the result of a lower price to the consumed--Yes; there would be works started in ccmnexion with the Blythe Hiver mines in Tasmania, in Queensland, and in South Australia. We should have iron works all round Australia. In the meantime we should be supplying pig iron to works in other places to mix with sc rap. Even in the matter of tin plates and galvanized iron alone,

there are sufficient importations into Australia to-day to give wm·k for 15 mills in New South w·ales, 8 in Victoria, 5 in South Australia, 4 in \Vestern Australia, 6 in Queensland, and 2 in Tasmania, or 40 in all. 11 39. You mean to say that the prospects of development are unlimited ?-Yes, I think so. I am sure that these mills would be started, but there is no use in putting up large works unless you can be sure that you will be able to sell the products of those works.

1140. I think you told us you had so me experience as regards the price of pig iron imported 1-Y es; in South Australia it is from 70 s. to 75s. per ton. It varies a good deal in the matter of freight. I have imported pig iron as a mixture for blooms in 100-ton lots, and some have cost me £5 5s. 1141. You require it for the purpose of working up scrap 7-Yes.

11 42. You have necessarily been a considerable importer of pig iron '/-Y es; some of it has cost me £5 per ton, but at other times it is cheaper. It is not so cheap now as it was six or.seven years ago. I know that pig iron has been purchased in the Sydney market at 5s. per ton over the home price. 1143. What is the home price ?-It varies a good deal-from 40s., and sometimes less, to 45s. and 70s. per ton according to the quality and demand. _

1144. Now with regard to the question of duty ?-It is per cent. on rails and 10 per cent. on pig iron; but then the Government get three-fourths of that ba,ck again. Whatever the duty, they calculate on getting three-fourths back, and a short time ago we lost a contract on that account. 1145. You think that the various State Governments under the proposal made would be directly benefited if you could get pig iron cheaper ?-I believe it would mean the development of the country as it has done in America, Canada, Russia, and Germany.

11 46 . You look upon the iron industry as one of the most important industries of a country?­ Yes. I may say that I believe t.hat Australia is destined to be the iron producer for all the islands of the Pacific, for Japan, and other places. 1147. You speak with the knowledge you have gained '/-With a knowledge of a subject I have made my study, and considering that we have in New South Wales, and chiefly about Lithgow, not only the coal and the iron ore, but fireclay and clay for ordinary bricks, sand, limestone, and an abundant supply of good water, water such as is rarely found, because boilers can be worked with it for twelve months without any incrust

1148. In short, there is nothing wanting to make. the esbblishment of iron manufacture success­ ful 7-Th ere is one thing wanted, and that is the bonus to secure -the capital to start these works; or in the alternative a certain duty guaranteed for a certain number of years. We have to look at the matter as business men.

1149. You have made it your business to look at thi> matter as a business man, and you give us the result of your observations and knowledge of the Yes; I have made a little money at

Lithgow during the last five years, but I have spent it in machinery, with the one idea in view, that some day we should have locally-made pig iron going in at one end of the works and coming out as the finished article at the other. W e might then go right on and keep the present works going, and as I have said, with the plant we have \ve can consume 15,000 tons of pig iron annually to-day.

1150. I do not suppose you have worked out any figures to show the savings to consumers here if we had had such works as these in full blast five years ago 7-I have given a little thought to that matter. Looking

Government contracts, and I could show you what they would have to pay if we could have got the raw material locally manufactured . ·

1151. By Mr. Winter Cooke.-Do I understand you to say that after the bonus is exhausted the industry co uld not live without a duty 7-vVe must have the duty to keep out consignments from abroad. I can show you how the matter works out in regard to consignments. I can give you an illustration. Twenty-five years ago I was at Home and we were rather short of orders; we wrote to a firm in London to give specifications for Sydney, Melbourne, and Adelaide. vVe made the stuff and sent it to London. Allowing tlie firm to draw 75 per cent. of the amount of the invoice, giving a letter of

indemnity and guaranteeing that if the account sales came back showing a loss we would pay it. It was sold in this market, and the account sales came back. I examined them myself, and know that the result was 50 per cent. of the London price at the time. There must be a duty, but that does not mean that the people would have to pay a higher price on account of that d'uty. I say the effect would be to cheapen the cost. That is my conclusion, though I have been trained as a free-trader. I may say that I came out with Captain Razon, t he British Commissioner for the New Hebrides, who had returned from Russia. I had some conversation with him, and I sin cerely believe that within the next ten years

we shall have to defend the shores of this country from a foreign enemy. That is a mn,tter which, in my opinion, requires consideration, and we should be in the position to make our requirements in peace or war. 11 52. In your opinion, there is no hope of an industry of the kind being established the help of a, bonus ?-That is so. If I ask whether, as business men, you would put money mto the enterprise 'lfithout a bonus, you will say thn,t you would not.

57

1483

W Sandford 19th February, i903.

1153. Can you give us any evide nce as to the cost of production in other iron centres ?- I can how you t he cost at whi ch it cau be made in other countries. In "American Industrial Conditions and Competition," to "hich I have referred t.o, you wi ll seC', at page 1 l 7, t hat in 1899 t.he cost of Bessemer iron at Pittsburg was compute<.! at 32s. ; later, you will see t hat t he total cost of materi als is

at_3-1s. In tho American l1 ·on Aye for 2 1st August, 1902, the co st of P itbbuq; No. I foundry

1ron JS g1 ve n at 36s. Gel., and wit h freigh t to New York at 3t:\s . Gd., and wmowhat less fur export. From New York it is stated hLtterly f reigh ts 011 pig iron vary ft-om to l 2s . per ton. Foundry iron made at Birmi11gham, in Alaska, is stated to cost 37s. 6d. Lon . They expect to hring down the cost of pig iron in A merica to 25s. per tou.

11 5-!. Is t hat on account of improved machinery 7--Y es; ou account of labour saving appliances. 11 55. I suppose t hese labou r saving appliances would be paten ted in t he UJJitetl States, and you would be unable to make use of t hem here 7- '\Ve shoukl certainly be able to make m·C' of them ; our plant would contain all t he lates t improvemrnts. In the report of the "Bri tish Jrou Trade Com mis­ sion," to which I have already referred, t here will be fou11d, at page 278, an estimate of the cost of Pittshurg iron in Great J:lritaiu, and th is the statement made-The questio n that is presented for t he conPidemtion of those wl1 o a rc stncl yin g the ll l[tl; CJ11'iro n the present and t he future of Ame rican ex ports Pcems to l.Je- How long can t he United Sttctcs con tinne to pay 7s. Gd. to lls. 6d. per ton for the railroad tmnsporl of iron,.,([ steel from to Lli c sea, plus ocean fre ights, and still make ,L profit on foreign trade? So far as I can judge of t he facts, the p resent po>itio n of the P ittsbu rg manufacturers in cu ltinLtiug Europe,Ln business will be approxima t ely us follows:-

E STBI.\TJo; o N Ol

Iron ore, per ton of pig iron ...

Co ke ... ... .

Lim estone Labour Sundries

Total

Add freight to seaboard, say Add sea transport , say . . . . ..

Add freig h t from Liverpool to indus trial centres of United Kingdom, say

T otal co st deli ,·erecl

... d.

24 6

Jl 0

0 l

2 0

l (j

39 l

8 6

!) 0

:3 0

5!) 7

Later on there is a reference to rail way freights, a nd it must be remembered that in America tl1 ey convey pig iron by rail for one-third of a penny per ton per mil e. 1156. By Jlfr. Watson.-Can you give us any estimate of wha t migh t be regarded tl1e ruling freights on pig iron between England and the main ports of t h e Commonwealth 7-No. Because so

much depends upon whether vessels .·want fl'eight or not. For in.·tance, during t he last three years I have paid freigh t varying from 25s. to 15s., and down to l Os. per ton. That is for raw material. I can men tion an instance in which I imported 600 tons of steel scrap from the in London. It was

put on lightet·s there, taken to London and put on board the ship, brought to Sydney and put i nto the baskets for l 3s. per ton. 1157. So far as you are aware, is there any great distinction between freights charged to the different ports of the Commonwealth from Liverpool, say ?-I cannot speak as to that. I do not t hink t here would be very much Jifference.

11 58. By Af?·. L. E. G1·oom .- Sydney and :Melboume would get better term lS, I suppose, than Brisbane or P erth 7-At certain times perhaps; but so much would depend upon whet her a ship wanted to go to those ports or not. · .

11 59. By Nr·. on your manufactured article between Lit hgow and Sydney is

1 Os . 6d. per ton ?-Y cs. 1160. I s t here

two or t hree trucks I could give them two or three train loads a week , I am sure t hey would meet us. 1161. By Jllr·. JlfcCcty.-I£ you sent a train load instead of a truck load ?-J-ust so. l 162. By Jb-. Watson. - Can yo u gi ve us any information as to the freights from Syd ney to other ports of the Commonwealth believe th e freight to Melbourne is lOs. now.

1163. Take Adelaide suppose it would be l 5s. to Adelaide. 1163A. And higher to the north , to Queensland ?-There is a rate to Queensland of 9s. to 1 Os. a ton . ll63n. You a re spea,king of the ordinary steam-sh ip lines ?- Y es. .

11 64. Would there be no cheaper means by which yott co ul d get fatrly heavy cargoes 7-Y es; if you wanted to send a cargo to Sou t h Australia, for I suppose you co uld get f re1ght at

5s. or 6s. per ton. .

' 1165: Assuming t hat your works were in operation a1:d _ t he duty of . I 0 per cent. under

Division VIA. of the Ta riff was in force, and t he Tariff other wu;e as Jt 1s, do you t hlll k you co uld compete with iron from America or England in Sydney?-Wit h 10 per cen t. we could compete with England, but the duty should be 20 per cent. on outsidet·s. . .

1166. Do you reckon t hat you could compete m the rno_re dtshmt ports of !.h e Commonwealth with outside nations at the rate of duty you have quotecl7- I bel1eve we cou ld. 1167. Notwithstanding the difference in the cost of getting the iron to those ports?-Yes. I believe that after t he expiration of the bonus with a duty of 20 per cent. against all outside t he home

count ry, and 10 per cent. against the home country, cou ld retain t.he trade of Au stmlia . 1168. Takino· it all round ?- Y es ; I fir mly beh eve that. llG9. I to ask you whether you think the bonus is esst>ntial to the establishment of

the industry, or whether, und t> r t he duty provided for in DiYision VIA . of t he Tariff, worh would be established wit h out a bonus 7-I should like to clearly understand you: that to say, if, putting the

lV. Sandford, lOth F eiJt'uary, 1903. 58

bonus on one side a.ltogether, the Governmen t we1·o to say that after a certain date they wou ld be pre­ parcel to impose tt d uty of 20 per cent. upon iro11 coming from outside tho mother co untry and 10 per cent. on that from the mother co untry, a.n cl guamntee for so ma,ny years. 11.70. W'hat should be the min imum period of the guarantee ?-Five yea,rs a.fter the star ting

of the works. If that were clon e, I should immediately cable to my to forward the machinery,

1172. You ::tre afraid t hat whil e the refu nd continues, as i t must under the Constitution, you would not have much ch a nce of getting Go,·emment co 11tmcts, as only one-fou rth of the duty would be operative, so far as their co ntracts were concerned 7--Yes j that is how it works out, and und er those conditions we could not take them.

117 :). You t hink it essential to the success of the proposed industry that you should have the Government contracts ?--Certainly. 117±. Contracts for J:a.ils principally ?- Yes. A ,.,sumiug that P a rliamen t met next week, and said-- " \Ve have rlone with t he bonus clauses, bu t we will agree to a 20 per cent. duty against outsid e countries an cl a 10 per cent. du ty against the mother country, I should immediately go to t he Govern­ ment of New Sout h \V: Lles and say- " At w·hat price can you give us your contra<.:ts 1"

117 :J . Tlmt mea ns that, so far as the Government ::tre concerned, the price to them would be iucroased by th e a mount of t he duty ?- Just so, without the bonus. BLlt if you g ive us t he bonus, I for one will not tt-ouble the Government in the ma tter, but we will be prepared to go into open competition, and I say tktt the price will be reduced.

1176. If \ie t ake the other ::tBpect of the question, and say th::tt the duty you suggest should remain in operation then you would expect the Governments to pay you more than they are at present paying ?-No; I would not say that. If the bonus be p::tssed we should be prepared to execute

Goverument contract;; ::tt much less than the price which it acknowledged they had paid within the past fi ve year.,;. 1177. I am spea,king now with reference to the duty only. If the three-fourths refund is going to enter into the matter the presumption is that you must be going to ask t hem to pay a higher price than

that for which they can get the m::tterial from outside. You say that if the State Governments are allowed to have three-fourths of the duty refunded to them you ::tre afraid you could not compete under the duties of 20 and 10 per cent. which you have suggested ?- No; we could not compete in this way. People who have a s urplus, in Ol'cler t o get certain contmcts from the Government may, like shopkeepers, sell things under cost price. Under such cir;)umstances mils might be considered something like a wa,s te product, ::tnd in order to get other Government contracts they might be prepared to supply rails delivered here under· cost price.

1178. I wiilh to ascertain whether you would be in a po&ition to offer to supply the v::trious State Go vemments with rails and similar requirements at an equivalent to the price of the imported article or at an equivalent to the duty ?-Plus the duty of 20 per cent. against outsiders and 10 per cent. again;;t t he mother country for a certain time.- Yes j I should do so.

11 79. You do not consider that you would be in a position to tender at the price of the outside article without the duty ?-No. ll80. A ssuming that the works were going in full order and t here was no bonus j do you think you could continue without the duty ?-Spe>tking for others as well as myself I do not think we co uld compete without the duty being added.

11 8 1. That me::tns that the price will be increased to the State Gov ernment to the extent of the duty ?--It might be so, but it would, I think, be less taken over a number of years. It must not be forgo tten that if American manufacturers knew that they were competing against works here they would quote a very low price; whilst, if they knew we had no works here, t hey would quote a much hig her price ; I therefore say th::tt wi thout the 20 pe 1· cent. duty we might not be able to compete. I may mention t hat the Carnegie people are building their own ships now, and are prepared to deliver their productions wherever they may be required at an all round price.

1182. On the figures you h

Pittsburg iron delivered ?-Very much low er. You will find at page 290 of Uassiers Magazine for this year, in an article entitled "Canadtt as a Steel Producer," nnd describing the operations of the Dominion Iron and Steel Company, the following statement is made :-Such is a brief description of Cnnada's latest contribution to the steel busin ess. I t is, in proportion to her population, a noteworthy and bolll eJfo rt, and the subscribers to the enterprise have evidenced in their li berality and p at ience a d eterminatio" to s ucceed that is son; ething which is to be reckoned with. \Vhile t he enterprise does not possess thc1 artilicially high market of t he United States, resul ting from a hi gh protective Tariff, it does not need 1t. \ Vhile it has to pay fr eight to r each tho European mnrkets it can, and does, assemble, at tide-water , matermls fol' maki ng steel cheaper than t hey can be assembled a nywhere in t he world, and so can alford to pay it. It is located n earer to fo reig n mal'kets tha n a ny co mpetin g points . The wor·k s can deliver to a ny poin t in the British colonies,

South America, or Asin, ns ch eaply as any of tho present exporting countries, nnd a s it can deli ver to them at a lower price than they can m:tnnfacture, its rightful herit,go is to feed their foreign markets. "With respect to the cost of production in Canada, you will find at page 331 of the reports of the B ritisb · Iron Trade Commission-

M e. Mox a m, the joi nt promoter w it h Mr. H . J\I. \Vbitney of t hi s great e nterprise (the Oominio n Iron and Steel Co mpany), has cstim:ttcd the cost of produci ng l> ig iron at the company's works at Sydney, C.B., at 5 dollars iiO cents, 1 2:Zs. lid. per ton, of \l'hi eh he n., sig ns I

:dJOIII', 1·r·pai rs, anrl in ci rlontnls. The cost of sLoe! hlooms is csti.nuttcrl 011 t he ·"nme :tuthority at II rloll :trs 2!i cents per Lo n, or 41,., wii icu is m:tto ri ;11iy und ur rw y c.-< tinmte T met wi t!1 in the United States, and w!.iciJ I shou ld ,·enturo to regard :l .s below t he figures likuly to·Lo averaged 01·er a term of

59 W , Sandford, 19th l•'ebr m,ry, 1003.

1485

11 tl ±. "'\Vhat I want to get at is, taking presen t ra.teH, t he difference between you1· landed cost at Iew South \Vales, and t hat of yom ?- The cost fl.uctmttes; we have had four

yean; gotn? up and five or yea r;; going clown, and it is to S

J t wtll be m th1:ee od our years time. Judging from all I can learn as to what is being clone to-clay with

t he machmcry , I thlllk that iron is likely be Yc ry low in price for the uext two or three years.

l 11:\5 . IV c that the cos t of iron delivered iu Engbnd iH 59s. 7 d., according

to t he rcpm-t of the Bnttsl, Iron T rack Commission . 1 'o you think it wou ld be lo1Yer than that landed iu Sydney?-Y es ; under 60s. 11 8 6. How much lower, 50s. ?- Ye:;, it migh t come down to 50ti., or C\'Cil lo\\·cr than that. It is a n unknown qu antity, a nd yo u can scarcely determine it.

11 8 7. You have given us your estimate of the lccal d prcduction, and \le lHtYC it ftated in t he report of the British Iron Trade t hat the cost of produdion at P ittsburg 3\h 1d.

\ Ve have t o add to t hat a reasonabl e amount for freigl-.t , and is it a fair t hing to ::;u.y that the freigh t a! together to seaboard and from seaboard is n<•t li kely to exceed 1 Os. l1d. per ton ?-It migh t in certain cu·c u m s tan ces. 11 88. 'l'hosc woul d probalily be extraorJi11 a ry circumstance;;; but take1wnual ? ___ I

have paid £5 £ -J, a nd 75s. per ton fo r different of pig iron.

11 89. A n estimate of .'iu;;. as a. landed cost would allow 15::;. llcl. fu r freight., and it wo uld appear t hat you would have an advantage, without t he ctuty at all, so far as the Sydney market concerned, in t he of iron if your estimates are COITect ?_ \,-e do not wan t m uch duty on pig in)n. I nCI'Cr

t hat.

11 90. You would have an of 12;;. per ton in t he Sydney market if these c;;timates are

correct?--You must take into co nsideration iuterest and capib l redemption accoun t. Appliances suitaulc for to-day ma y later on have to he taken down. 1191. B ut both parties have to take t hose matters into aoco unt?-Ye::;. But we ;;hould l1 ave to start with only a small quantity, and you m ust allow t hat, with one furnace n.nd a ;;ma.ll output the

expenses wo llld be proportionately grcateL 1192. By .Ah. Jlf cGcty. - Supposing that fo r fiv e years after yout: works were star ted you betel a g uarantee, either in the form of a duty Ol' a satisfactory bonus, co uld you s tand without the d uty or the bonus when yo u had been five years working up t he market ?- I may just explain that so long as our

minimum wage is kept up-at its present standard you make t he conditions h ere difficult for people going into t he enterprise. 1193. That raises another very big qu estion ?-It is the very of it. It all clepcmls upon

the cos t of production, and when I take Government contracts I have to an agreement to pay a

certain mte of wages. 1194. Are t he wages per man higher at E skhauk than t hey nrc at Pittsb urg, or as high ?-They may be aR high at Pittsburg, but the wages here are higher t han in Enghmd OJ' oa the Continent. 11 95. You are allowing for all this in yom estimate of 35s. p er ton, and I ask you wheth er, if

your markets were guaranteed for fiv e years, eit her by a or a duty, you could at the end of the fiv e years stand the abolition of the g uarantee, and fight on open terms with t he rest of the wo rld fo r Australian contracts ?- I shall answer that iu this way: \Ve are willing to take t he risk of what may he clone at th_e end of the five years. Give us t he bonus for the flve years, and we will put down the

plant. You need not think that we are likely to keep that plant irllc at the end of the fi ve years. I think yo u will find that Mr. Jamieson and some other people as well as myself are willing to take the ritik. 1196. Y ou want a chance to establish yourself, and having been given t hat oppor tunity you arc prepared to take a fair businesti risk ?-You have already passed Div. VIA. of t he 'l'Miff under which certain dut ies arc to come into operation as soon as the Minister i::; satisfi ed.

1197. That is not an answer t o my question. You do not think the duties will be abolished. vVlmt I want to know is whethe r, if the duty Oi' bounty, 'in whichever form the g uarantee iii gi vcn , does disa.ppear, you think you would then Le able to continue opemtions ?-I do not think "e shoukl co n­ t inue ope1·ations.

11 98. B y J1f r. L. E. Gr·oom. - You look to the Government as your chief co nsume1 · ?- Certainly. 11 99. Apart from Government contracts, do yo u think t horo woulcl be a suffici ent prospect of business to encourage you to start the industry 7-N ot to start blast furnaces. There would not be sutii cient with sheets and plates to keep blast fumaces going.

1200. In the event of the industry being es tablished here, lw.ve you considered t he po s1;ibili t,v of exporting to places outside A ustrali11. ?-Certainly . 1201. Do yo u t hink you would have a fair chance of success ?-I consid er there is a fair chance, and a very good cha nce. As I have said, I consider t hat Australia should be the iron rn anuhcturing centre for 11.ll the islands around it.

1202. For the Pacific 1-Yes, t here should be a very good chance of t hat, but, of comse, it would take a fe w years to develop. 1203. Have you ever made a ny special inquiries as to the extent of tlw iron of

Queensland ?-No; T have only read reports as to thei1· coal 11.nd t he iron ore they haYe there. 1201. You arc satisfied that there a re la rge deposit;; of iron there ?-Yes. T think t hat when we show what can be done, it will only be a qu estion of time '"hen Lhere will be wo t·ks starte

But I say that in no other place a rc the1·e t h e ad vantages whiG h \I'C haYe in the \I· est of N cw South \\Tales in the shape not only of coal on the ground to he had at t he low priee of from 3s. io. -1s. per ton, with iron ore to be bought ttt a n average of 5s. 6cl. per ton, a.nd limestone at about -J s. p<'r ton, good sand, an d a n of wat.er. Connected as we a re by rail with South and as 11·e shall be very soon

with Queem;land with out aoin o- OYe r the li! OU ntains to Sydney, J think we can cla im to ba,·c all the natural advantages required to a big success of the cntc· rpri se. ·1 do not tl1in k t.hrre is otl ter

pbce t hat has equ:tlnatural advantages. Tn other places iL is necessary to bring tlte or(' long di stances to t he coal, while we have it at hands, and hr 11 Ce 11·e ('a n mal :l' ]' ig ii'On at ot· \lnr :35 s. per trm.

60

H yman H erman, A ssistant Director of Geological Survey, Victoria., sworn and examined. 1205 . lJy th e Chcti1·man. - T thin k Professor Gregory is the officer in chartre of vour Depa rtment - That is so; but at present h e is ;; uffcri ng from serious illness . "' •

1206. \ Vhat experience haYe you had in Victoria 7- .Eight years. ·

1207. Cnn you, speal; in g generally, give us an idea as to tl1e nature an d extent of the r esources of V ictoria in relation to iron prod uction. The resources do not, I t hink, eq ual those in other States?-- -Apparently not, from t ho evid enec I have re:Hl. 1208. I suppose Victoria has considcraLle iron deposits in places ?-I can hardly say there are ·" consider:.ble " ci eposits; the deposit s hanJ not been proved of any con siderable valu e.

l :.?09. ·w hich is t h e most ex tensive deposit that you kuow in Victoria ?- Probably the most extensive depoc;its are at Nowa Nown, near tLc Snowy River, and nOt th -cast of Bairnsdale. ] 210. H ow far is that from the nearest railway sta tion ?-Atout 30 miles, I think. Tl1e nearest station is Bairnsdal e.

1211. The IJ ual ity of t hose cl cpusib is 1:ot Yery high, I tbir: k '-No, it is not very high at the big deposit a t Nowa 1-lowa. 121 2. \Vhat is the esti mated quantity Lherc? -- - Thc es timate simply says that it may be" several million tons," anrl there has not been sufficient done to enable a reliable es tim ate to be formed . I might add that t hat estimate can only be con sid ered a J> a rough guess.

121 3. H as any estimate been funned of the percentage of iron in the ore 7---I have here an analysis, which gives the average of seven samples. The analysis shows about 7·5 per cent. of silica, 27 ·5 per cent. of metal! ic iron, and 27 ·.5 per cent. of metallic manganese. 121 4. Y ou wo uld not call t hat a ntluable ore for iron ?--No; I would not. In fact, it will not be out of the way to mention t hat this has been regarded as possibly a lode containing, at a lower depth, more valuable metals than iron. It may be, perhaps, the cap of a metttlliferous lode containing copper and other metals.

1215. You do not attach much imporhmce .to this as au iron 1ode?- Not as an ordinary iron lode. 121G. Can you tell us whether, in point of quantity, there are any richer deposits in Victoria 7-The next deposit in point of quantity, :.nd which is of good quality ore, is at Lal Lal, near Ballarat. The est im ated quantity- this is an old es t imate, but it is the only one I know of- is 7 42,300 tons of ore, reckoned , roughly, to contain 357,000 ton s of iron. It is about a 50 per cent. ore.

] 217. You wou ld call that medium to fair ? - I should call it medium ore. 121 8. What ore is it?-It is limonite. 1219. Do you know of any large deposits in Victoria other t han t hose you have mentioned 7-N o ; that is tile lnrgest deposit I am awnre of which presents a prospect of producing pig iron.

1220. Do you know of any deposits r icher in quality 7- No. There are other deposits at Nowa N owa of a bout the same quality, but the mos t that has been said so far of the best of t hose deposits is that, according to the report, it is likely to exceed 60,000 tons of first-class ore. It is a higher quality of ore than that at La! La! ; the report says t hat it is a very pure hematite, giving up to 69 per cent. of

metallic iron. 1221. Then so far as at present ascertained, the iron resources of V ictoria appear to be exceeded by those in other parts of U ndoubtedly.

1222. Has t here been any systematic search for larger deposits 7-At both La.! Lal and Nowa N owa there has been a search, but I should no t call it systematic. 1223. But some attempt has been made; was that Ly private individuals or by the Govern­ ment ?-By private individuals. In fact, at Lal Lal there wa.s a blast furnace, which produced a certain amotint of pig iron.

1224. H ow long ago ?-About 2G or 27 years :.go. 1225. vVas that private enterprise ?-It was the result of private enterprise. On e hundred and twenty-fi ve tons of pig iron were prod uced from 260 tons of ore, equivalent to 40 per cent., and the cost of production was about £ 4 per ton.

1226. Do you know of any ot her attempts at iron manufacture in Victoria ?-No. I might mention t hat the official returns of iron ore produced in Victoria show 5, 434 tons, valued at £12,540. 1227. vVhnt was done with that ore ?-I do not know; probably i t was exported, though in any case the amount is insignificant. There are recent estimates of the cost of production of Now a Now a iron. The late Government Metallurgist, Mr. Jenkins, estimated the cost of the production of pig iron at £3 per ton, and he reckoned that it could possibly com pete with foreign pig iron in Melbourne at £ 3

lOs. per ton. 1228. How long ago was t hat ?- Last year, when I\lr. J enkins ret ired. l 22!J. I :; there anythiug further you can tell us whi ch wi ll assist us in the possibility

of establishing iron works in Australia . Have you any plan showing the pl aces at which iron deposits occur in Victoria '? - Yes- [plan jJ1'0du ccd]. 1230. But the notable instances are J.al Lal and Now a Now a, ?- Y es. 1231 . Do you wan t to add t o t he list ?- - At Dookie there are iron deposits which have received attention for some years past; but, so far as I am aware, nothiJJ g has been done to show reli ably what extent t he deposits have. The quality, so far as analyses go, is pretty good.

1232. vVhat is the percentage ?-Medium; 4- 9 ·45 of meta)lic iron. There are at preeeu t elevm min-eral leases taken up, and these are really fo r prospe cting for iron ore. aggregate I ,54 3

acres, and eight of the leases are at N owa N owa, two at LalLa!, a1:d one at Coimadai, which is in the Lal Lnl distrd. 1233. JJy Jlh. J oseph Cook. - Ancl these leases refer to the deposits you have described ?- Y es ; t here are no leases at Dookie at p resent.

123±. By the Chairman.- Is work being don e on the leases ?- So far as I am awa re no wor·k is being done, but I could not Hay for cert:.in. I may that early in 1901 a proposition was made to the Department by a compan,Y to undertnke the productio:n of iron on receiving certain concessions from

61 IJ )·mn.n Herman , 19th February, 1903.

the Government. 011e concession tlmt t he GO\ ernment should undertake to take a ll its supplies from the local work;;. to be csta_b bshed, and thcte II()! C other tontcssiom; as to raih1 ay;;, aud the taking­ of land ; came of the 'lhe summury of for 1\'[in es on the pro­

Jected transactiOn m lm; Annual R eport fo r 190l \l ;t,; that., wh1l st suftitien t informntion had been obtained to encourage in t hi s dirEction, mu l: h rem ained t o be considered before a definite

opinion be expressed itS to t l1 c f uture of t he i11 rl u,:t ry. I might add t hat in addition t o the deposiLs I have mentwned a rc a num be r of oth?i's, u ( gcod qual ity, but tl1c f]Uan tit.y ;1\'a il able has, so

far, been ascertaw ed su.ili Ciently well to JU Stify any one dubbing them as of im portance. There iR 3, of smaller deposits of importance .at Nowa Nowa. In a rapid up the Snowy

R1ver Valley so me few years ago, one of tile officers mformed m·e that he noticed a, number of iron lodes . These were not ve ry big, certainly, but etill were sulfcicnt to show that deposits may be looked for so me, it may be, of importance. '

1235. But you have given us the most im1 :ortan t which can te spoken about ?·-

I think so. •

12 36 . By .lb-. J oseph Cook.- I understand that yo ur staff h ave not made a systemat.ic rreolorrical survey of t he iron deposits of Victoria ?-No. I may say that that work been on list" for

some years past, but so far no member of the staff has lctn able to go on wi th i t . 1237. Y ou have done nothing, for instance, in Victoria, corresponding to the work done in N cw South Wales 7- No. R erort ·on iron and some other deposits h:i.vc bee n on the list fo e so me vears, but n othing has been done. "

1238. By Jl/1·. JlfcCay.-'Ihe Snowy Hiver basin is amongst the least ex pl ored po r tions of the 'tate 1-'l'hat is so . 1239. By Jlf1· . .Joseph Co ok.-H ow far from the coast a re those areas where you there ar·e or may be discovered deposits of iron 7- 'J he dista nce vari es from 12 miles to GO or GO mil es to t he Lakes'

Entntnce, which would be the natural port, though Orbost mi ght possibly be used. Hut as one gets north t.be co untt·y becomes very roGgh, and the means of transit a re more difficult. Ncar t he coast the country would be easy for rail way com munication if ever that should be req uired. 1240. By ]I h. J!cCay.- 'l'h ere is no rail way up there 7-- N ot beyond BaimsJalr .

(Taken at Lit!tgow.)

MONDAY, 6m APRIL, 1903.

Mr. J oseph Cook, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Mauger,

Commissioners p1 ·esent :

Mr. \Vatkin s, 1\ir. \Vat son.

Mr. was called to the Chair, pro tem.

\Villiam Thomley, sworn and examined.

12-tl. By JJh. Watson. ·- You u.re the m:tnn.ger of t he Eskbank Jron \Yorks, Lithgo w, owned by 'William Sandford, Limited 124-2. I understand that you have some infoema.tion whi ch you desire to lay before the Co mmission as to the experience of your fi.rm in endenvouring to find un outlet for your produ cts under present -conditions 7-Y es . vVe decided to ente 1· into t he manufacture of railway points and cross in gs, and we

put down a plant in a portion of oue works wh ich was speciall y des igned fo r cnrrying on particular branch of industry. W e thought that by bying out ou t· works in a n up-to-date style we shou ld be a bl e to successfully compete with colonial of t !J cse goods. This cxpcctntion " ·n.s ;o far reali zed

that when we tendered for 200 sets of points nnd cro;:;::;ings reiJUirr d by the Uove rnmrnt, ou r tender wits co nsiderably the lowest of those sent in by colonial although we " ·ere hadly lJcatrn by the

English tenderers. 1'hc consequence was t hat t he 200 sets were ordered from Engbnd. \Ve then represented to the Government that this was the first occasion for many years on wli!ch they had call ed for tendet·s from abroad for points and crossings, and that whe!1 our plant was purchased we had no idea that. \\"C should have to enter into competition "·ith English ma nufactm ers. \ 'Ve put cl own plant :tt a cost of something like £6,000, and we consid ered i t I"Cl'Y hard that 11·e should be sudd nl y brought into

competition with the English mitnufact urer, ll'hO was not subject to the · condit ions of contract unde1· which we were bound to pay the minimum wage. 1243. You mean that there was a minimum wage provision in the con tract 1--Ycs, so fa t' as local tenderers were concerned. There was al so a provision that the work shou ld be carri ed out under the eiaht-hour system. The English manufacturer.;; were wo rking under the ni ne-hour ::.nd there was

no provision for the payment of any minimum wage in t heir case, and t hey 11·e re t herefore ahle to tender fot• about half the amount named in our offer. I have not fi gures aYa il ablc arranged in s uc h manner that yo u will be abl3 to readily grasp the situation, but our cttsc is set forth in t he fo ll o\\' in g ktter :-Equi table Bu il ding, George·street, Sydney, l H h August, 1902.

Sm,-\Ve have the honour to call your attention to t he f.en llers for 200 sets of poinLs a! 'd crossings that closell on Thursday lu.st. T end ers were received from Enghwd, A menca, a nd t h1 s Srate. An EngiJS II tender. lowest, the price being g iven as £2,470 f.o.b., Engl:wd. " 'e were the ]0 11·est co loma! t enderer, our pr1ce bemg £5,773 15s. d eli vered at Clyde, with the pr01·i so that if the Department wi shcu Lo take at E:kbunk we would deduct the freicrht·from E s kbank to Clyuc, amount iucr to £210 , and a lso g il'ing the DJ partmc:!lt tre-:! at E skbank

of finished and switches, t hus a1·oiding o f fonmrlling to Clyde a nt! un loading and relvading.

So as to compare the difference in price between t he Engl•sh tender a nd ours, 1t will be to add the

cost ot transportation from p ort of shi pment to Clyde, a nd also Agcnt·Uencral's charges for mspectwn, &c.

1487

\Villiarn Thol'nl ey, 6th April, 62

\Ve imate t he abOI-e charges approximately as

Freig ht an< l iusuntuco \VI mr-f:Lgo Punting and loading Hail to Clyde

To which to be added inspection mul other charges.

P er ton. £1 J (i

0 2 G

0 2 G

0 l 2

£ 1 11 8

Leaving o ut t he ch arges, t hi s leaves a difference between our tender and tho lowest English tender

of £2,031 JJs. in fa,-our of tho English tender. It would t herefore appeur on the surface t hat we were making a n onmmons profit, or t here is some mistake in the English tender. Before deciding, we \I'O ulcl respectfully in Yite the J\J careful consideration to !,he follow in g facts :-

(!) 011e of the conrlitions of tho contract, which we tal

Engli & h tender £5,350

Om tend er £ 7, 381

(3) The al JOYC \\"ill show both tenders under equal cond itions. Coloniul tenderers arc subjected to t he labour cond it ions obtaining in this State. Tmrlc union mtes for

mcchauics, minimum wage for labour, and eig h t hours per d ay a,ll rouncl. The standurd rate for mecha ni cs in this State is from l Os . tolls. p er day, a m! labourers 7s- per day; the mtes paid in Engla nd are mecha,ni cs :30a. per week, a nd lu!)out·crs J Os. to 20 . .,. por week, workin g n in e l1 oar.s p e r clay . It ll'ill, t herefore, be seen frJm the a,bove t hat ow ing to the rai ls being s uppli ed free labour enters very

la rgely into this contract. Ont of a pproxim ately 400 tons as t he total weig ht of t he contmct only about 120 tons a rc s uppli ed by t he contractor. It w ill ;dso be see:1 that we are paying, ta,king wa,ges and bou t'S worked in to consideration, 125 per cent. more for mechanics, and 164 per cent. more for labourers. If, however, we tak e the total cost of the contract, in cludin g tLe cost of mils, it will be seen that our p t·ic e is only 38 pet· cent. above t h e E ng lish !Jl'ice, and ths itB pection tmcl oth er cha.rge3, together wi th the cos t of

r< li ls from rolling mills to t he works of the CJn tmctor'in England, will still further reduce this p ercenta,ge . If the Go1·e mmcnt C< tl1 see its way cle:w to place this contmct wi t h n · it will enable us to employ an additional 50 men. Anticipating that t he Go,-ernment would be calling tenders for t hi s class of work we have purch,tsecl abou t £0,000 worth of additional machinery, which is now being erecto>d. If, unfortunately, we lose this co ntract we shall he compelled to SLtspcncl operations in this direction , as we cannot honestly fulfil the conditions la id clown and compete with the low-priced labour of other co un tries.

W e have, &c.,

'l'o t he Hon. E . \V. O'Sulli1·an, Minister for \Vorks, Sydney.

'l'he Minister recognised t hat we had Leen put to a lot of expense in laying had no knowledge of the intention of t he Government to call for tenders desirous to ascertnin t he lowest price at which we co uld ctorry out the work. further letter to him as fol lows :-

W:M. SANDFORD, L td.

down a plant, and that we in England, and he was v\Te thereupon addressed a

Equitable Building, George-street, Sydney, 1902.

R e T encle1· jo1· 200 sets S u·itches and Crossings.

Sm,-Refcrring to our conversation of t hi s morning, we ha, ve carefully considered the posit,ion as set forth, and we fully r ecogni se the difficulties in placing this contract with us. \Ve have aga,in gone in to t he cost of t he work, and with a view of d oing all that is possible on our part to have t he work clone in the country, we have d ecided to amend om· tender, and now offer to supply the Departm ent with t his work at estimnted net cost. Our originnl offer was £5, 773 JJs., delivered at Clyde. W e now beg to amend the offer to £5,273, deli ver ed on truck s at Eskbank; and we further underta,ke to provide free stomge for completed ma,terial and will load upon trucks a nd despatch as required by the D epartment.

Although we have reduced our price to absolutely the lowest point for which the wor k ca,n be produced in the colony, i t is still considembly in advance of t he E nglish t ender. On investigating the cause of this difi'e rence it is accounted for by t he difference in the rates of ]Jay a nd working hours in t he two countries, as t he following will show:-

'Ve estimated t hat it will take fifteen mechanics a nd 21 labourers 39 week s to complete the contract. 'l'he amount of wages to be paid, at £3 for m echanics a nd £2 2s. for labourers, amounts to ;103,474. Owing to t he extra number of hours worked in England, the same number of men would complete the work in 31\ weeks, and the ·rates of pay being , mechanics 3'18., a nd labourers ISs., making a total amount of wag-es pa,id, £ 1,554. This alone accounts for £ 1,920, a, nd the difference in rates ' p:tid for genemlbbour and s uper vision is considerably hi gh er here than it is in Engla nd, a ud will more than account for the remaining differences between our tender a nd th e

English tender. \Ve are quite s ure t ha.t this class of work h a,s n eYer been produced in t he colony at the rates " ·e now quote, which can easily be ascertain ed by refening Lo t he cost of points a nd crossin gs made in t he railway workshops at Redfern.

'l'o the Hon. E . vV_ O'Sulli van , Min ister for \Vor·k s, Sydney.

vV c have, &c., WM. SANDFORD, Ltd.

As t he res ult of the representations made to th e Minister, he gave us a t rial order for 50 sets, the under­ standing being t hat we should cut down the prices as much as possible, and let him know how far we could reduce our charges after the 50 sets had been completed. When the order was completed, and the men were about to be put off, we represented the matter to the Ministei· again, and offered to red uce our price by 15 per cent . provid ed he wo uld give us another order. The letter in which this offer was con-

veyed was as follows :- '

Lithgow, 4th Ma rch , 1903.

Sm,-In connex ion wi.th my-in terview w ith the H on. Mini o; ter for vVork'l, in wh ich it was asked t hat a further order be plncecl with us for 100 sets of swi tches a, nd crossings, I now ask that an order be g i1•en for 25 sets for t he present. . . . .

This will keep a, n umber of sl

T o t he H on. l\Iinister for \Vorks.

You rs fa ithfull,y, W . S ANDFORD, Ltd.

63

1489

"'illiam Thornle.v; Gth Apdl, 1903.

\Ve secured an order for 25 at the reduced price on the understanding that if more sets were required for t he \Vestern d ist ric:t, we were to mmmfacture them. You will note that in om· firc;t letter we put down the rate of wages in England fo r meclim1ics at 30s. pet· week, but we subsequ entlv ascertninecl that the trades union rates in England were 3·b . for mechanics, <1nd l8s. to for The lowest

English tender was £2,470 f.o.b., at Dm·lington (Eng.). \ Vh en yo u speak of the manufacture of points and crossings, do you to conYey tha.t

the operatiOn embraces t he rolling of t he rails from t he steel or iron, or simply comists of t h e conversion of a number of rails and plates into points and crossings ?- I refer to t he of the mils into

points and crossings. No colonial manufacturer is in a position to roll m ils of the weight required . vVe ?an roll rails up to 20 lbs to t h e yard, and we have t urned out some at 40 Ju s. to tl1c yard, in

Iron, not m steel. The ntils used in t h e manuf<1ctu re of the points and we re GO -lb. imported

steel m1l s. 12+5. vVoulcl the E nglish tenderers do their work upon the sn,me basis- would they conve1·t mils already belonging to the Government into points rmd erossings ?- Yes; the Government would transfer some of t he steel rails p urchased by them in England to the worb of the English manufacturers for t he purpose of being converted into points and crossings, instead of seliding them out here.

1246. Then the English and colonial tendercrs would be working under similiar conditions RO far ::ts ma terial is poneerned ?- Yes. I worked out the difference in the cost here nnd at home, and

accounted for the whole of it by comp:Lt·ing t he wages pcLid here with tlwse prevailing in the town at which t he English contract was carried ou t . T took the English figmcs from the retnrns of f,he A malgamated Society of Engineers. 1247. vVould engineers be mainly employed on such work ?- They would prindpa.lly be machinists, drilling nmehinisb, and blaeksmitli s.

1248. Would thmw be any difference in the freight charged tl pon points and crossings :1s a.gainst plain rails-would not the rails be conveyed more cheaply than the points and ct·o:o;sin gs ?- No. 12,19. A rc t he points and crossings put together at home?- Yes. F ront what t he Engineer-in­ Chief told me, he secured a freight of about lOs. Gel. per ton for the points and crossings, which would be equal to the freight by rail from Lithgow to Sydney . Tn other words, they can bring points and crossings from England for t he same price that we can deliver similar goods in Sydney. The E nglish manufacturers have a great advantage in the extm h our per day, and in the low wages which prevail in their works.

1250. A number of person s contend that men who work for eight hours per clay get through as much as t hose who work fo r nine hours would no doubt apply in a hot elimate, but not in

England, and it would not apply t o machine work so much as to other classes of labour, such as forging. 125 1. vV hat proportion would the forge work bear t o the whole of the opem tion s in making points and crossings ?-I should think about one-third. 1252. So that in regard to the ot her two-thit·ds the extra hour wo uld he of advantage to the English manufacturer ?--Y es.

1253. By Jli-r. jlfauge1·.- For how many men would you have been fLble to find employment, sup­ posing you had secured the contract for 200 sets of points and crossings ?-That would depend upon the t ime allowed for doing t he work, but roughly it would provide en1ployment for, say, 40 or 50 men for four months.

1254. At what wages ?-The minimum wage for labourers is 7s.; the machinists would be paid at trades union rates ; and the present rates of pay for blacksmiths in our works are lOs. 1md lls. per day. 1255. You wish the Commission to understand that the minimum wage provision which applies to local t enders is rendered abortive where tenders are called from outside, because its operation is not

extended to the foreign tenderers?--Yes; t here are no conditions as to hours or wages applying to foreign tenderers. ...

1256. How do you account for being able to reduce you r price in the original t ender by 15 per cen t . D id any part of that reduction come out of the wages proposed to be paid to the men, or was it a cut price ?....,-In one way it was a cut price, which was intended to enable us to keep the machinery at work. There was no profit in it. Our plant and work s ·were specially designed for carrying out such contracts. vVe have tramways running right through the sheds, so t hat t h e necessary material may be brought in from one end and the finished article conveyed out a t the other. vVe have also 'che latest appliances in the shape of pneumatic riveting and drilling machines. .

1257. I underst and that all Government tenders that are invited in New South \Vales pronde that t he minimum wage must be paid, and that this p1·ovision is irrcspeetive of whethm· the tenders are open to t he outside world or otherwise?- Yes. .

1258. NotwithstandinO' the fact that such a condition cannot apply to fore1gn tendercrs ?-Yes. , 1259. By 1Yb·. Fuller,:'_ You say t hat you· were beaten by tLe English tenderel's, and that this result was entirely due to the low rates of wages paid in England and t he long hours of labour worked in that country as compared with those prevailing here?--Yes.. .

1260. A good deal of t he work performed in your shop 1s earned out t he cont ract - Only in the rolling mills; that would not apply to the of wor,k to wh1c.h I have been refcrrmg. That is all carried out by clay labour. In t he bn:r .and sheet all, tne work 1s clone by eontract, but we have clay labourers handling the scrap and clnvmg t he engmes. 1he rollers and heaters are all wo rk­

ing under the contract system. 1261. B y jJ.fr. Watson. - When you·speak of the contract system, do you mean t h at t he whole of the men are paid by piecework ?-No. I consider that wh ere one or two men undertake to do a ce rtain amount of work and provide the necessary labour to perform 1t, they are cont ractors.

1262. 1lfr. that system pec uliar to Australia ?-No, it is t he old system wbi ch

has been adopted for years past in the English rolling mills, and in conncxion with forge work. I am given to understand, however, that it is being don e away with i n many of t he la rge mills in England and America.

\Villi a.m Thornley, j6Ch April, 1903. 64

1263. "What proportion of the men engaged in your work would be employed under the contract system ?-Houghly speakin g, I say about one-third. Out of 350 men employed in t he works,

I sh oul d say, speakin g from memory only, that at least 100 would be wo rking under t he contract system. 126 4. \Vhat proportion of t he mon ey paid in wage:; under the contract system-that is, through t he co n tractors' lmnd:;- would be retain ed by vVe reckon that half our business consists of the work done in the bar and sheet mill;; . 1 t is ve ry difficul t to say what proportion of the wages would remain in t he contmctonl' ha.nds, because we do not know what the contractors pay. \Ve have no control over the wages. The contractors arc paid so much per ton for the work t hey finish, and they in their turn pay the men the amounts agreed upon between t hem. It has never been our business to ascertain

what t he men earn. 1265. Do you believe that the co ntractor s make a very good t hing out of it ?-I think t hey do very well. 1266. So that the fad of the contractors doing so well out of your mills practicall y increases t he wages sheet without giving a proportionate r es ul t ?- Y es . If t he contractor8 were paid anything like the wages t hat ordinary workmen receive-that is, if they were all on piece-work-1 believe we should get our work done for much less. I may put it in this way: W e have had some discussion on this matter in the works, ftnd, as I have always understood, no man has a righ t t o ma ke a profit out ofhis fellow work­ men unless he invests capital or runs t he risks of business. Therefore, I think t hat the contract system as now carried out at o"tu· works is wrong.

12 67. H as not t he bet t hat a great deal of your work is performed under contract in t his way imposed a. big lnndicap upon your en t erprise ?---I am hardly prepared to t hat , although personally I should consider i t to be the 126 8. B y J!h. Jo seph Cook - Do I understand you to say that the action of t he Government in calling for tenders for points and crossings in Engl:wd wrrs a new thing ?-Y es, as. far as my memory goes. I do not t hink we have had any points and crossings from England fo r fourteen or fifteen years. I

am speaking of the Railways 1269 . ;Have you any idea of t he object which it was intended to serve by suddenly calling for t enders from England ?- I cannot understand it. I may say tlmt about two years ago both the Railways and the Public -works Construction Branch experienced great difficulty in procuring

points and crossings manufactured in the colony within the time required. The H.ailways Commissioners sent an order to America, and I happened to be in New York when it came through, and was questioned about it. That was the first order sent to A merica, and the points and crossings obtained from t hat co unt ry, although cheap, were not satisfactory, and ·cou ld not be safely put into t he road until t hey were altet·ed.

1270. How is it that the Minister for ·works is concerned in t his matter of calling for tenders for points and crossings ?- All new railways are carried out by t he Construction Branch of th e Public Works Department, whilst all existing lines a re maintained and repaired and added to up to a certain point by the Rail ways Commissioners.

1270A. The Minister for Works is the constructing authority, and t herefore he would be responsible for the new depart ure in citlling for tenders from England ?- Yes. 1271. You said that there was no minimum wage provid ed for in England ?- No, I said that there was no minimum wage mentioned in the conditions of contract which applied to foreign t enderers.

1272. That is quite another point. Do you know of your ow n k nowledge t hat there is no minimum wage in England ?-If there is any such provision it is made through the trade societies. 127 :3. You mean that t here are certain union rates fixed?- Yes, and it is upon these t hat my figures have been based.

127 "i. I suppose that t he men employed in England in making points aq,d crossings would for the most part be members of the Engineers' Society '?-I do not think so, except in t he case of the black­ smiths. The manufacture of poi nts ·and crossings is not what may be called a fini shed line of engineering work, because upon it many men who are not exactly first-class mechanics can be employed . . It will not compare with llhe work of building an engin e or putting machi net·y together, although the smiths' work

requires to be of excellent quality. 127 5. Still the men employed upon this kind of work wo uld be classified, and have their wages fix ed ?- Yes, so far as t hey migbt be connected with t he various unions in England. 127 6. 'I' hose unions presc ribe cer·ta.in wages which a re in effect minimum rates 7-Y es.

127 7. The on ly difference bein g t hat in this country our Mini3ter for vVorks prescribes the rate, whilst in England t he unions prescribe i t 7-Y es. I have been a member of the Engineers' Society for 26 years, and I have some knowledge of their rules. vVe always made an allowance in the wages paid to men engaged upon inferior classes of work. That is to say, we did not expect a man engaged upon inferior wo rk to be paid the same rate as those employed in t he higher bmnches of the trade.

1278. But all classes of labour are provided for at varying Y es.

1279. And t hese rates would be t he minimum for each pa rticular class of work 1280 . You said that you thought t here wer e 100 men employed under the contract system at your works 12 81. Do you mean that t here are 100 different contracts Jet, or that 100 men in the aggregate are affec ted by the contract system 7-That 100 men a re affected .

1282. liy Jlh. 1V atson.- How many contractors are there7-Ten or tweh e. 1283. By Jlfro. Watkins. - You told us t hat your tender for the points and crossings req uired by t he Government was the lowest of t hose sent in by colonial manufacturers 1-Y es. 1284 . Are there many people in A ustralia who are capable of manufacturing points and crossings 7-·There are not n1 a ny. Two other local firm s h:we done this class of work, and tendered for t he 200 sets, and there are a number of local agents for American and English firms who would import t he goods. vVe made the last lot of points and crossiugs at a fa r cheaper rate t han they have ever been

G5

.

\Villiam· Thorn e)' 6th April, 1903

1491

turned ou t in N ew Sou th W ales previously, either by t he Hail way D epa rtment or by privat e con tractors At any ratr, t hey have never· been purchased from pt·ivate co ntractors at so low a rate as we charO'ed 1 have :n years' experience in t he manufacture of po in ts and crossings in my capacity as of t he mterlocking works of the Eailways and I know tha t we did not t urn out tho

points and crossings a t anything like the low rates quoted by Sandford and Co. 1285. The decision of the Minister in regard to the minimum wage clause in tho contracts would against you 7-Most certainly. The E nglish manufacturer, e ven at the low price quoted by

h1 m, would make equally as much, or even more, profit than we co uld at the quotation first giv en by UE.

12 6. That means t hat you have found the English rat e:; of pay considerably lower t ha n those prevailing here 7- Yes. The rates for mechanics are a t least 100 per cent. higher berc tha n iu E ngland, whilst for labourers our rates are 120 per cent in excess of the English wages. 1287. H a ve you based your calculation upon t he wages paid wh en you left England, or upon the

rates prevailing there n ow 1-I base my calculation upon the rates quoted by the Society of Amalgamated Engineer as prevailing in the town in England in wh ich the points and crossings were made during las t year. Two years ago I was touring t hrough A merica an d England, and I made a speeial point of look­ ing up this par ticular branch of business, because I was at that time fo reman in t ho interlocking yards.

It was owing to t he knowledge I gained on tha t occasion that I was able t o by ou t our shops to tho best ad m ntage, because I embodied in them all the bes t poin ts which came under my notice in E ngbnd and America. That is where we have an immense advantarre. 1288. A re t here any other factors, apart from t he wages question, whic h bear upon t he ma n u­

facture of these point s and crossings 1-So fa r as the material is con cerned, t he important par t of it, in the shape of the rails, is supplied by t he Go"ernment; but we co uld make the wrought and cast iron portions much more cheaply if we had better raw material to work from, in t he shape of pig iron, instead of scraps.

12 9. H ave you any information to give the Commission with regard to the cos t of raw material here as compared with E ngland and America ?- I have a for pig iron delivered here from

Messrs. oyes Bros., importer s, of Sydney. This wa s gi ven a few days ago, and you will find that they quote Clyde pig iron at 80s. per ton an d Eglin gt on iron at 87s. 6d. Com paring t hese \l·ith the E ngli sh prices, we fin d tha t in t he I ron 'L'mde Cir·cula1· of 14th February, 1903, Scottish pig iron is quoted at an average of 5l s. The English manufact urer would have all the advantage over us rep resented by th e

difference in price. 1290. W ould it not be possible to make pig iron here at a cost much below t he price quoted for the impor ted article 1- Certainly, if we had a bl ast furnace here. 129 1. vVhy should t here be such a difference bet ween the English and the local prices 7-I can

on ly surmise that it r epresents freight, commissions, the cost of handling at home and here, and the profits of the importers. 1292. It would al o include the railway charges at t he other end ?-Y es. 1293 . If a blast furnace were established here, the cost of production would be less than 80s. per

ton ?-According t o Mr. Sandford's evidence he could produce pig iron her e at something under 35s. per ton. If we co uld obtain t he raw material at anything like that price we should have an advantage over the English manufacturers, and this would apply not only to us but t o all users of the raw material. 1294. Co uld t hat price be guaranteed 7-I do not know that we could guarantee it, but you have the evidence of Mr. Sandford , who has been guided by the reports of t he experts whom he has employed.

1295. Can you give us a reason why a bonus should be asked for 7- I take it that t he reason is this : W e have ores here which are, to a certain extent, untried; and I take it t hat, when Mr. Sandford speaks of 35s. per t on as the cost of producing pig iron, he ex pect s to be able to prod uce it at t hat fi gure when the works have been fairly established and have been brough t into full wo rking order . Befo re that

point is reached, however , great· expense must be incurred in attaining t he necessary degr e of perfection. N o blast furnace has ever been established in a new locali ty without the expenditure of a large amount of money in order to achieve satisfactory results. The part iculal' class of ore available, t he coal (wh ich may contain more sulphur than the English product), and variou s other elements have all t o be considered and taken into account, and even after t he most careiul calculation the furnace as origi oally con st ructed

may be found unsuitable, and may have to be recon st ructed or modified, and a. at;n oLmt of expense incurred. Mr. Sandford, when quoting 35s. per ton as t he cost of producm g p1 g uon, refers to t he ult imate result which he expect s to achieve, after everything has been brought into swing. 1296. By 1 1£r. Fuller .- ! see that Mr. Sandford says t hat the cost of conveym g manufactu red

iron from Lithgow to Sydney would be lOs. 6d. per t on, and t hat he bas never bee n able to secure a cheaper rate?- Yes. 129 7. In the event of iron works bein g est ablished somewh er e on t he coast of N ew South ·wales -say on the P arramatta River-and simila r works being car:ied on at Lithgow, woul d not the Lithgo w works be at a disadvantage correspon ding to the amount of freigh t--namely, 1 Os . Gel. per for

the conveyance of the manufactured produce from Lithgow to . ?- but. agamst that we

should have the advantage of cheap coal, and, fu rthermore, we ant lCipate that, Wi th an mcreased volum e of business, the Hail ways Commissioners wou ld be able us a lower rate. If were able .to.make up full train loads inst ead of sending our st uff away m smgle t ruck loads t he Ratl ways Comm tsswners would be able t o quote lower freigh ts.

1298. When you say that you would have the of che:Lp coal, d? know whether

the coal in Lithgow is as cheap or as goo d as t he coal obtamable m tho Illawarra d tstnct, for example 1 - I believe it is cheaper. 129 9. Do you know that?-I do, and I do no t. I could not give you the figures, but I haYe always been under the impression that the Lit hgow coal 11·as the cheapest. .

1300. E ven supposing that t he present rate of l Os . 6d . per ton were redu ced by the Rmlways Commissioners und er t he conditions you indicate, would not J_,ithgow always labour un der a disadvantage as a distributing cen t r e for A ust ralia to the extent of the freight charged between that place and thr;

F.l0501. I'

William Thornley, 6t h April, 1903. 66

seaboard 1- W e should have that against us, but they have no iron" ore on the Parramatta River, and they would have to bring the ore so me distance to any works that might be established there. Then,· as against t he freight, we should have cl1eaper coal, and limestone close at hand. , · 1301. What ext ent of iron ores are available near Lithgow ?-vVe have no iron ore at Lithgo w itself, but t he deposits are not very far away. I understand that a good deposit of ore was recently discovered near Portland, about 15 miles from Lithgow.

1302. I s there any great quantity of ore there '?--The man who brought a sample of ore into Lithgow said there was a mount ain of it, but per sonally I do not know anything about the matter. 1303. By 1lh. vVoul d any -iron works that might be established in Australia be unduly handicapped,• as compared with iron works in other parts of the world, by th9 contract syst em, or is that system universal ?-I believe t hat the syst em was in England, but that some of the larger works are now abolishing it .

1304. Then it is not an A ustralian syst em only?-N o. I think that there are other causes which affect the cost of produet.ion t o a far larger extent t han does the contract system. In England they can buy their ra.w materi al at mu ch cheaper rates, and we have to pay rr;ore than double the English rates of wages. I know that t wo year s a.go I obtained figures in England which showed that at that time we were paying fully double the rates prevailin g in the old country. I cannot speak with certain ty as t o t he rates of pay prevailing there to-day. In Carnegie's works and another in Chicago, which I they adopted the system of paying the roller and furnacemen according to a tonnage rat e, but all t he other men were paid daily wages through the office.

1305. At wha t rates were they being paid 1-I was infotmed that the roll er on the big plate mill could earn from 30s. t o 32s. per day, but the a verage pay given to labourers was 6s . per day. 1306. By fllr. J oseph Cook - Did you ascertain if the roller who was being paid a t onnage rate for himself, instead of a contract rate for the whole produ ct, was receiving more or less wages than form erly ?-I think that the roll er received more for his day's work, but that he was pnid a low er tonnage rate. The greater output with the improved machinery gives the rollers a higher wage even a t a much

reduced tonnage rate. Th e output has been almost doubled in some cases . 1307. Could you tell us why the change was made by the American companieH '1-1 could not say. 1308. Are the men being paid more by the companies than they received formerly from the contmctors ?-I should not think so, judgin g from the wages they get, but I do not know. Six shillings per clay for that clnss of work is not very mu ch.

1309. Pres um ably there must have been a mo tive for making the change, because, according to what you say, they pa}' the roller more than he received formerly ?- I cannot tell you, but perhaps lVIr. Miller will be able to give you reliable information on the subj ec t.

H erbert Bladon, sworn and examined.

1310. By j}fr. Watson. - You are an iron-roller employed at the Eskbank iron works?- Yes. 1311. How long have you been employed there ?-About nine years. 1312 . vVhere were you working previously?-! was in Melbourne for nearly sixteen years. I came originally from the old country, wL ere I was employed in iron rolling.

1313. By fib-. J oseph Cook. - In what part of England ?-In Staffordshire, also in Lancashire. 1314. By jJ!fr. Watson.-Can you give the Commission any evidence as to the syst em upon which the work of rolling the iron into sheets and is carried on here, as compared with t he

system obtaining elsewhere ?- We are working on exactly the same system that is followed in England to-day. 1315. That is the contract system ?-No, it is the piece-work system. It has been called the contract system by lVIr. Thornley, but it is generally known as the piece-work system.

1316 . Of what do es the system consist, as carried on here. Does one person contra.ct >vith the owner of the works to t urn out so many t ons of iron as required at a certain rate, and then employ all the labour required ?-Supposing I carn e here, I should make an agreement with lVIr. Sandford to roll his iron at a certain price and employ all the labour necessary to enable me to carry ou t th e work. In

England there are standard mtes for the work, but her R th e rates differ. A s a piece worker I pay my men a little more now-some of them- than was paid by lVIr. Sandford prior to my comin g here. 1317. Prior to that, did Mr. Sandford employ the men as day labourers ?-No, they were always piece-worker s.

131 8. Can you say briefl y how t he rates of pay to t he men- not to the contractors-compare with the wages eamed in England ?-The men here would get twice as mu ch as in England. 1319. I s there any great difference between the amount the contractor would receive here and that which he would have left for himself in England ?-The contractor here would not ge t nearly so much as in England.

1320. Have you attempted t o wo rk ou t the t ot al of rolling the iron under the system obtain­ ing here, compared with the cost in England 1-There is no comparison, because the English machinery is so much more up-to-date. Th e iron is turned out at a lower rate per ton. 1321. Do yo n t hink that t he difference in the cos t co uld be largely redu ced by the int roduct ion of more up-to-date machinery ?-Cer tainly. I in England nearly two years ago, and I brought bac k with me a plan of a mill that would turn out nearly fi ve times the amoun t or iron t hat we put through now.

1322. How mu ch more labour wo uld be required 7----T wo mo re men wo ul d be req uired at t he r oll P., and if we did not go in for t he im proved gas fu rnaces two or more furnace-men migh t be needed . 1323. To what extent would yo u require to increase the cost of labour in ord er _ to secure an output fiye times as large as yo u have at present 7-I should think about 30 per cent. more labour wQuld be required,

67

1493

Herbert Bladon, 6th April, 1903.

1324. By M1·. What would be the cost of the machinery 1-That is more than I could

tell you, but I should think that the mill would fully £5,000, with engine complete, but without the gas furnaces. 1325. By 1Jfr. lVatson.-·Of course the gas furnaces would have an important bearin"' upon the working expenses 1-Y es. "'

1326. I s there any other matter upon which you could give the Commission information of value. Could you tell us anything as to the possibility of carrying on the industry without a b

rron. If we do not augment this supply very soon our iron works will come to a standstill. The raw material i gradually becoming worked out, and unless blast furnaces are established we shall have to stop work. 1327. Do you feel competent to express an opinion as to whether, as an ordinary matter of business, it would be worth while to go on with the erection of blast furnaces independently of a - o, I do not.

13 28. Heferring to what you t erm piece-work, which is designated by some others contract work, can you say what- is the opinion of the men regarding the alterna t.ive systems would mther be paid by the contractors. That was shown by the result of the r ecent ballot, when the men declared them elves opposed to any change.

1329. What was the reason for their objection-do they think that they can work more satis­ factorily for the men 'hth whom they are associated '!--I think so ; and, moreover, the contractor has more command over them. If the men were paid through t he office we should not have any control over them.

13 30. That would not be a reason for objection on the part of the men ?-No; but Mr. Thornley has shown that in America the men who are paid direct from the office receive a lower rate of pay than wh en they were employed by t he contractors, and perhaps they fear a similar result in the event of a change occurring here.

13·31. Do you care to state what the men receive here I do not think so .

1332. By M1· . .Joseph Cook-Do you pay all your men day wages they are all on piece­ work, at tonnage rates, even to the boys. 1333. Do you mean, when you say that the men are paid double the wages they would receive in England, that they are getting double the price per ton but they do not get double the money.

1334. By llfr. Fuller.- How much do you pay them '1-The rates vary, and I do not feel inclined to state them. 1335. By 1lfr. the contract system operate in all similar works in

No, in Melbourne I was paid from the office . 1336. How would the wages paid in Victoria compare with those ruling at Lithgow 7-The Melbourne rates were slightly higher than those paid at Lithgow. 1337. Do the men who work for you belong to a trade society

1338. How many hours per day do they work commence work at a quarter to six, and we are often done by 3 o'clock or 3.30 in the afternoon. 1339. You do not work twelve hours per day1-N'o, we work very little more than eight hours. W e are working only one shift at present. .

1340. I s there any truth in the statement that the men employed in this particular branch the adoption of the eight hours syst em we should be only too glad to have the eight hours system provided we had sufficient work to keep the mill r egularly employed with three sets of men. vVhen we have orders beyond the capacity of one shift, the night shift goes on for two or three nights a week, or perhaps more.

1341. How many hours do they work 7-J ust the same as we do. 1342. Then you do not work continually two shifts of twelve hours each 1343. And you would not oppose the application of the eight hours system to your work'!-­ Certainly not.

1344. You say that the raw material for your work is becoming scarcer?-Yes. 1345. I s that owing to its having been worked up, or to exportations . . In t he old. days,

when iron rails were used on the railways, we had t he benefit of all the worn-out rmls for workmg up through the mills, but now the Government are importing steel rails, which are of .no use us for rolling in the mills. A very few steel rails are rolled into small T rails of a reduced size, and the rest have to go to the furnace. . .

1345A. The supply of material is decreasing, and the export trade m scrap Iron I S The export trade has largely increased in Victoria since the duties were taken off. 1346. To what part of the world is this scrap being exported '!--A good deal of it is sent to China-particularly horseshoes.

1347. How mucM-I do not know. 1348. There was an export duty on scrap iron in Victoria7-Yes. .

1349. How did that affect you when you were in that State 7-It kept the scrap m t he country, and consequently it was worked up locally. 1350. Did that affect the price to the consumer '!--I do not kno:w. . .

1351. Was the iron put up as cheaply there, with the duty, as m this State without the Yes. 1352. The:n the duty did not affect the price to t he co nsumed-No. 1353. Would you support an export duty Oli scrap iron ?- Y es, I would. A great ma,ny tons of

scrap iron have gone out of Australia recently. . . . .

1354. Do you know anything about the constructwn of and crossmgs ?- o; that IS out-side my branch. 1355. By Mr. Watson.-You mentioned an aggregate working period of from 10 hours to. 10 hours and 30 minutes. Do you take any time off for Yes, for breakfast and dinner.

F 2

Herber t Bladon, 6th April, 1003. G8

1356. So that leaves you a fraction over eight hours per da.y for work 7-Y ef!; but we do l.'lot work continuously for even that period, because we have only two furnaces going, and we have spells in betv.:een for "smoke, oh't>!" 1357. By P£1-. Joseph Gook.-Are those rolling mills still working in Melbourne7-Yes, at ·west

l\Iel bou me. 13 58. How many hands are employed 150.

1359. Have they the advantage of any duty or bonus 7-N o, they were never assisted in any way except by the export duty on scrap iron. 1360. By Jlfr. TVatlcins .- You said t hat you paid the men as piece-workers more than Me. Sandford gave them befote you came Veey little indeed, except in the case of the boys.

1361. Did Me. Sandford do his own rolling?- No, there was another man employed, and he had the mill undei:· much t he same conditions as I have it. H e left, and lVIr. Sandford was without a roller for some t im e. ·when I came fimt, I took over t he rolling only for a short time, and then Mr.

Sandford offered me a chance to take over the mill and pay the men myself. He gave me the prices he was payin g from the office, and I have kept those prices good ever since. 1362. Then you ar e not paying your men any more than they received from Mr: Sandford 7-No, only one or two of the boys. Mr. Sandford paid one of the boys 2s . 6d. per day and I increased his pay because t he work was very hard.

William Thornley, recall ed and furt her examined. 1363. By M1·. Wntson.-You wish to reply to some of the statements made by Mr. Bladon 7-Yes. Having listened to Mr. Bladon I that he that if Mr. Sandford were to put down a

more up-to-date mill the workmen wou ld be

1364. By :1/? ·. Joseph Cook-Can you tell us why the sheet mill workers will not adopt the eight hours system1-I could not tell you. They all belong to the one society. We have offered them the eight hours system, aud they say that they are prepared to take it when their wages are not affected and if we will give them a guarantee that they will have constant employment. How co ul d we give them

that, when we cannot sell the product we turn out and cannot provide the raw material nece::;sary to keep the work going. 1365. Would the introduction of the eight hours system with the present machinery inevitably lead to a reduction of their wages 7-Perhaps it would, unless the tonnage rates were increased.

1366. 1'hat is no doubt the reason why they are not prepared to adopt the eight hours Yes, that is probably the reason. 1367. ·w ould a mill of greater capacity t urn out more in eight hours than your present mills produce in twelve hours 7-Yes.

1368. And probably the men wo uld earn as much in the long run as they are doing now 1-Yes ; they would probably earn more if they had a more up-to-date mill. 1369. And Mr. Sandford would gain more profit t han at present 7-Th'b,t would not be a hard thing to do, because we are making no profit at present.

1370. You say t hat Mr. Sandford would gain more profit if he had a more up-to-date mill '1-Y es. 137 1. ·would not that permit him to compete more successfully with the other buyers of scrap iron 7-There is no scrap in the country. 1:172 . How many buyers of scrap are there in A ustralia 1-Two in ·New South ·wales, and two in Victoria.

1373. Then, of course, t hey are competitors for the purchase of such scrap as may be here '1-- Yes. 1374. Then t he man who can do his work most cheaply could compete most successfully fo r that scrap '?-Yes. 1375. Then, if vou laid down a more up to-date mill, and worked your business more cheaply, you would be able to p;y a better price for scrap, and so outbid your competitors'?-Yes, that may be. We migh t close the other men up very quickly, but even then theee would not be enough scrap for our r equirements.

1376. JJy Jlh. Fulte1'.-How long have you been acting as manager for Mr. Sandford '1-I was in charge of t he engineering branch for twelve months, but I have been placed. in control of the rolling mills since December last. The change was made with a view to economy, tlJe previous manager having resigned.

1377. You were not the manager when the last witness took over the mill '1-No. 1377 A. Do you know the rates of wages paid when Mr. Bladon took over the mill ?-Mr. Bladon commenced work in May, 189J ; eight men were employed, and two boys. Mr. Bladon, as roller, was paid at the following ra,tes :- For fin ished iron over 20 lbs., 3s. 3d. per ton j under 20 lbs., 4s. per ton; for three-eighths and ft,·e-sixteenths, round and squat'es, 6s. 6d. per t on ; &nd for quarter round,

9s. 9d. per ton. Th e rates paid to Messrs. Bnxter and Southall, he,a,ters, fo r the same classes of work were 5s. 3}d., 7s llld., lOs. 7d ., and 15 s. l O&d. per ton l'espectively. l\'[essrs. Byron and Buttet·ton, rougher and catcher, divided equally the following rates :- 3s. 4d., 5s., 6s. 8d., and 1 Os. per ton respectively. Hodgers, a catcher, received lld., ls. I s. lOd., and 2s. 9d. per ton respectively.

R amsey and Hepp]e divided equally ls. Sd., 2s. Gd., 3s. 4d., and 5s. per ton respectively. F. Baxter, hooker-up} received 6d., 9d., I s., and I s. 6d, per ton l'especti vely. These men were all paid direct from

69

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William Thornley, 6th April, 1903.

the office, and the total cost per ton in wages worked out as follows :-Finished iron, over 20 lbs., l 5s. ; under 20 lbs., 23s. Oqd. ; three-eighths and fi ve-sixteenths rounds and squares, 30s. 9d.; and quarter round, '16s. Under the contract system, Mr. Bladon, the contractor, emplovs eio·ht men and two boys, the prices paid to him being as follows :--Finished iron, over 20 lbs. (induding bonus

of Is.), 16s. 41d. ; under 20 lbs. (including a bonus of I s.), 24s. ; three-eighths and five-sixteenths round.s and square, 3ls. 9d.; one-quarter rounds, 47s. l t d. Thus the cont ract rates. work out 1s. per ton higher all round than did the old piece-work rates. F or six months in 1895, 133 shifts were worked, the output being 6 tons 14 cwt. 2 qrs. 12 lbs. ; for the six months ended 31 st December, 1902,

137 shifts were worked, and the average output was 11 tons 7 cwt. 0 qrs. and 12 lbs.

( Tctlcen at Lithgow.)

TUESDAY, hH APRIL, 190.3 .

Commissioners present :

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Watkins,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watson.

Mr. Mauger, Mr. Watson was called to the chair p1·o tem.

William Miller, sworn and examined.

1378. By fih. Watson.-What is your occupation ?-I am an iron r oller. 1379. How long have you been engaged in that-business ?-I have been an iron roller for about 4 7 years, but I have followed the iron industry for something like 50 years altogether in England, Scot-land, and Australia. ·

1380. How long have you worked in Australia?- For about 26 years. 138 1. That is, until ?-Yes, until about a year ago.

1382. You t h en went to England and America, and whilst there made some inquiries as to the condition of affairs in those countries 1-Y es ; I first went to America. 1383. Can you give the Commission any idea of the conditions under which the iron industry is carried on in England and America, more particularly in regard to the employment of labour ?_:_The ton­

nage rates paid here are about double those prevailing in England, but in America the rates are a little higher than those paid in the old country. 1384. Could you give us an idea of the extra cost involved in turning out iron here compared with England and America? --That all depends upon how the work is carried on. If we could get good

scrap and plenty of old rails it would be easy to arrive at the extr11 eost; but since t he supply of rails has run out it costs about £1 per ton more than formerly, because in some cases the rails have to be brought from Victoria. Sinee scrap iron has become scarce a lot of inferior material has to be used, and this would add perhaps £1 per ton to the cost of the iron. If a superior product is required, the scrap

has to be picked over, and then again big scrap does not waste in the furnace like small scrap. In fact, it takes 2 cwt. more of small scrap to produce a ton of iron. In America, when I was there, the day labourers in the mills were being paid 7s. per clay of ten hours. The steel workers are employed for twelve hours per day. There is only one man who is paid a high price, and this enables him to earn at

tonnage rates as high as £3 to £-1 per day. When he has good orders for rolling he may earn up to £4, but, perhaps, in some cases his earnings may run down to 25s. or 30s. 1385. Taking the general run of men, what wages a re paid 1-The labourers in Carnegie's wo rks receive at least 7s. per day, and the wages of the men who work with the roller range from l6s. per day upwards.

1386. That is, the men who assist the roller?-Yes; their wages rise in rotation towards the roller, the heaters' pay being next to that of the roller. 1387. By MT. ilfaugm·.-How do those rates compare with the English wages?-Th e English wages are scarcely

although the men employed in the Eskbank works receive double t he price per ton that is given in England. The improved machinery at home brings this about. A mill that will turn out 20 tons here would produce 60 tons in Scotland or England, and the improved tonnage rate here does not co unter­ balance the effect of the better machinery and the lat·ger r elative ·output in the old country.

1388. By Mr. Watlcins. - \Vhat wages are paid to labourers in England ?-A very good lahourer s paid 4s. per day. 1389. By lrh. Mauge1·.--Do any of them get less than t hat ?-I h ave known labo':rers to work for 2s. 6d. per day before I came out here, but the conditions are better now. I do not beheve that any of them now receive less than 3s. 4d. per day of ten hours. . . . . .

1390. By .1lfr. Joseph Cook. - What is the lowest rate pa1d to labourers m thiS mdustry m Australia 1-I cannot tell you beyond what I hear. I am told that t here are two or three old men who receive only 5s. 6d. per day at the Eskbank works. 1391. But what is the standard ?-Seven shillings per day.

1392. By Mr. Ji'ulle1·. - Is the labour which is paid at the rate of 4s. per day in Engl&-nd of the same class as that for which 7s. per day is paid in America?-Yes. That rate is paid for all outside abour throuahout iron works, such aH carrying coal, clearing up ashes, making up scrap, and so on. 1393.b Are we to understand that the general labourer in AmeriP-a is paid 3s. per day more than

the En ... lish labourer, in iron wo rks 7- Yes, I believe so . It is not only, however, in regard to the wages that difference lies between our caRe nnd that of England or America. Here all the work is done by sheer weight of bone and muscle, but where they have thoroughl y up-to-date plants in the mills t he men F,Ot the machines to work, and have little else to do but stand by and look at them. H ere th!;l workmn,u

WijliamMiller, 7th April, 1903. 70

has to kill himself with work for less money than is paid in America, although the owner of the mill pays double t he price per ton. In England the rollers are making more money t han t hose employed in similiar work here. 1394. By Jh. Mauger.-That is due to the new and improved machinery, and to the enormously increased output ?-Yes. .

1395. Is the contract system in vogue in England as it is here ?-Yes; in England the r ollers generally lift t he money, and pay t he men. 1396. So that t he local works are not handicapped by t he contract system-1-No.

1397. But simply because the machinery here is not up-to-date 1-Y es. 1398. Is t here anything in the statement that if improved machinery were put down here t here is not enough scrap to keep it going 1-Yes; there is very little scrap to keep the two mills going in New South W ales and the two in Melbourne, even with t he present machinery, and no man would put down a. new plant until means are provided for converting our iron ore into pig. At present we cannot turn our heavy ba rs and plates as they do in England and America, because of the lack of suitable raw material.

1309. How do you account for t he increased scarcity of scrap here '!--Twenty years ago we used to roll old rails into new ones, but the railway authorities made up their minds to substitute steel for iron rails, and after I had completed the rolling of 13,000 tons of iron rails they were stacked out at Bowenfels, and we got the greater part of t hem back later on to roll into bars. Not one-third of that

13,000 tons were put into the railway roads, and we had tore-roll them into bars in order to keep our works going. We- should have been at a standstill long before this but for t hat supply of scrap. 1400. Do you think t hat. it wou ld be possible to supply the necessary raw material without a bonus to assist the industry ?-No, I do not. I do not care who puts his hand into his pocket, the establishment of blast-furnaces for the purpose of converting our iron ores into pig will be a great under­ taking. V ery little of our iron o're has been put into the furnaces, and the experience gained in England in connexion with t he production of spiegel and other iron products shows how difficult it is to pass successfully from the treatmen t of iron ores in the laboratory to t heir production in bulk. The difficulties in connexion with the establishment of t he iron industry under new conditions have been illustrated in a number of instances which could be quoted from English experience. There are so many different kinds of ores to be worked. There is a great deal of ore out at Piper's Flat and beyond it.

1401. Do you know anything of the reported new deposit beyond Piper's Flat ?-Y es, I h1tve seen it. 1402. Do you think it is an extensive one ?-Y es . 1403. It has not yet been tested so far as its ex bent is concerned ?-I do not know.

1404. By Mr. Watson. - Mr. Jaquet states that at Wallerawang and Piper 's Flat there are 2,000,000 tons of brown ore. ·would t hat quantity include t he deposit of which you are speaking?­ No; it would include the Piper's Flat deposit, but not t he one recent ly discovered about two miles from Piper's Flat, in the direction of P ortland.

1405. The new deposit must be in the vicinity of the Piper 's _ Flat deposit1-Yes; it is not far away, but it is a distinct deposit. 1406. Mr. J aquet speaks of the Piper 's Flat ore as brown ore ?--Yes, but brown ore may include hematite, manganese, or magnetic iron.

1407. Y es, but Mr. J aquet speaks of it generally as brown ore after having tested it in his laboratory 1-Y es. 1408. By .Jfr. Manger. - ! suppose you do not know anything about the manufacture of points and crossings 1- No; all I am familiar with is the contract work in connexion with t he rolling miU s.

1409. What would be the proportion of men employed under contract in large iron works ?--The proportion would vary according to the nature of the plant. When I was rolling at Eskbank, up to last March, I had seventeen men under me. 1410. Where they have the contract system in vogue in Scotland, what proportion of the men engaged in the whole of the works would be employed under contract ?-It t akes about the same number of men to work a mill in Scotland as it does here, but the machinery does more work. At the same time, the improved machinery relates more to -the working of steel than iron.

- 1411. By lfr. Watson.-Suppos:r.g 600 men were engaged in an ironworks in Scotla nd, what proport ion of them wo uld be employed contract ?--The greater proportion of them would be-more than half. 1412. That is a greater proportion than at the E skbank works ?-Yes.

141 3. How do you account for that ?-If we had blast furnaces working upon maiden ore we should be turning out pig iron and puddling it, and all that work would b e.. done under contract. Instead of that, however, we em ploy day labourers to pick out the scrap. 141 4. You spoke of the improbability of any one entering upon the smelting of native ore without the assistance of a bonus. H ave you had any experience of that class of work, or have you made any special inqu iry as to t he probable commercial results of smelting our native ores ?- No, for the simple reason that we have nothing to guide us beyond laboratory res ults. The various iron deposits carry ores of differing qualities, and whoever comes here to work the ores into iron will h&ve to find out which are suitable for making iron for foundry purposes, for steel making, or for puddling. -

1415. You have made no inquiries as to the cost of conver ting our iron ores into pig?- No. If it could be done, however, the working men would be placed in a position of great ad vantage. 141 6. Broadly speaking, the effect of your evid ence is that t he labour employed in t he production of iron in A ustralia costs more t han in Ameri,'a or England under certain conditions 1-Yes.

1417. Do you say t.hat state of affairs " 0uld continue if we had improved machinery ?- No. If the men had improved machinery, and the same rates as at present, t hey would very soo n as

good as t heir masters. They wo uld not, however, r eq uire such high rates, ancl with improved machmery laid down here there would be a considerable differ nee in t he price of labour.- because men would shape their tenders acco rding to the capabilities of the mil '

71

1497

William Mill et• 7th April, 1903.

1418. But supposing that you were to put down iron mills, would you expect to pay more, on the whole, for your labour t han if you were in England ?- Yes, I should expect to pay a little more than in England- pcrh a.ps half aR much again. The men would look for higher wages becau.;e they can live cheaper in England or S .;otland, and t he men would not come out here to work unless they could do better than a t hom e.

1419.- \ Vou ld t he wages here be higher than in America 'I- No, I believe the American rates would s11,t isfy the men out here, if they had the same machinery to work with. . 1420. By Nh. Watkins.- Great advances have been made in the processes for the production of Iron from ores 1-Yes.

. H21. Why do you coruiuer it necessary t hat a bonus should be offered for the production of pig u·on of the initinJ difficulties connected with the es tablishment of that br·an ch of the iron

industry. W e have no fire bricks here suitttble either for bhst purposes or for the in side linings of furnaces, and t hat, in itself, would be a great drawback. Then they would have to import the greater part of the machinery, and that wo uld involve heavy expen se. l -U2. By Jfr. Watson. - Would that also apply t o extensions of the work 7--No. As

years went on and the resources of the establi shment increased, the own er of the works would probably be able t.o make t he greater part of fli s own plant and thus save expense. l-l- 23. By ilh·. you think t hat if a bonus were given one mill cou ld turn out all the

iron requ ired for t he whole of Australia 7- No. According to the returns given in the press as to the imports, four blast furnaces would be required to turn out the raw material required for use in A ustrali a. 142±. Ry J!r. Jos eph C'ook.- R efer ring to the Homestead works in America, yo u stated thu,t the pi ece-work system was abolished and that on ly the roller was paid on the tonnage 7-No, 1 said thttt the con t ract . ystem had been 'abolished and thu,t all the men were paid from the office.

U 25. Are they paid by the day or are they engaged in pi ece-work ?--The men are paid on piece­ work, and their wages vary from l Gs. and upwards unt il they approach the mtes given to the rollm·. l42G. Have you any idea why that change in the system of pu,ymcnt was made 14 27. Do you know whether the men aRked for it7- No, but I should not think the men would ask for it. I have never had any t rouble with rny men, and I am sure t hat the roller has much better command over t hem under the contract system thn,n when they are paid direct from the office.

1428. B y Mr. Watlcins.--Did you find any evid ence of the break-down of the contract system in England 7-No. 1429. By 1lh. Joseph Cook. - You stated that t he wages paid to the workmen in England, though lower, would go further than Y es .

H30. Fom· shillings per day in England would go a lot further than it would here 7- Yes. 1431. By Mr·. Jl£auge1'.- \Vould you sooner work for -!s . per day in England th< tn for 7s. per day here ·?-I should not care to say. I was in England for only a short t ime on my last visit. 1432. By Mr. Joseph Cook. - You confine yourself to the general statement that the wages paid in

England have greater purchasing power than they would have het·e ?- Y es. . 1433. By Mr. Fulle1'.- ln co nnex ion with the wages paid in England, as compared with the rates prevailing in Australia, supposing we made so much iron here that we not on ly met our own requirernents, but were com pelled to expor t, with a view to keeping our works going, do you think t hat we should be pl aced at any advantage or in competing in the open market '1--W e could not compete

in t he open market. H34. By jJ£r-, TVatlcins.-Did you find t hat the iron trade was declining or increasing in -It was not decreasing, but it was sub ject to great fluctuations.

(Taken at Sydney. )

WEDNESDAY, 8th APRIL, 1903.

Commissione1·s p1·esent :

M r. Joseph Cook, Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. ·watkins,

Mr. Hughes, Mr. Watson.

M r. ·watson was called to the chair pr·o tem.

J ames P eter Franki, Manager of Mort's Dock and Engineering Company Ltd., sworn and examin ed. 1435. By 1 Vb ·. Watson.-I understand that the Mort's D ock and \Vorks,

of which you are manager, are rather Yes ; the compa ny has an mves t ed cap1tal of nearly

£500,000. .

_ 1436. And I suppose the works and property belongin g to i t are equa l_ to, or perhaps exceed 1n valu e that amount 7-Y es, t hey are worth quite that amount. ';orks co ns 1st of two gravmg doc ks, three floating docks, three patent slips, and shops fo r general engmeenng pu rposes. 1437. The company is engaged largely in ship huildmg but we a_lso do

a grea t deal of general engineering work of every de;cn ptwn. \Ve h:we, for m stance, bmlt 60

locomotives there. 1438. You doubtless use a la rge quan tity of pig and scrap iron we ll as iron ma nufactured bars, plat es, and oth er shapes?-Yes. All such iron is our raw matenal, and we use large quantit1es of it.

14.39 . The Commission was appointed t o in quir·e in to the des irability of enco umging by the grantina of bonuses the of wo rks t o m:tnufacturc iron from Australian ores. \Vill you

kindly t ell us what effect the establishment of such works wo uld ha ve upon the operations of your com­ pany 'l--It would of course, be of great advantage to us to be able to purchase locally-made iron. If

James P. Franki, 8th April, 1903. 72

we could do that, we should not have to carry so large a stock. At the present time we carry upwards of £40,000 worth of stock to be ready to meet the requirements of our business, and more especially of our ship-repairing business. If we had not the necessary stock always on hand, t he work would have to wait until we could import our requirements from abroad. Nowadays enormously large plates are used for ship building-plates 24 feet long, while iron merchants generally do not keep plates which are longer t han 16 feet. Therefore, we should find it difficult sometimes in getting repairs done if we had not our

own plates in stock. The establishment of local iron works would be of great advantage to us in this respect, that instead of carrying the stock we now cany we could give our orders for plates just when we required them. Of course, we could purchase locally-made iron only if it were sold at a price which would enable i t to compete with the imported .article.

1440. For the locally-made iron to be of advantage to you, you would have to be able to b.uy it at the price charged for imported We should be willing to pay for locally-made iron what we now pay fOl' imported iron, plus all charges and even interest. 1441. You could afford to pay a little more than you pay for imported iron, becaui'>e of the con-venience it would be to you to be able to get supplies just when you r eq uireci them ·

1442. How much more could you afford to pay-2;! per cent. per cent. more. We

should be prepared to pay that, together with all charges. 1443 . You could afford to pay for locally manufactured iron, both pig and plate, 2i per cent. more than you pay now for imported iron do not say 1;hat we could pay more for pig iron, bu t we could pay more for plates, bar iron, angle iron, and other iron of a similar description, which is raw

material to us. 1444. Would the establishment of local works be of advantage to you so far as the production of pig iron is concerned if they could supply pig iron more cheaply than we can buy it at present. 1445. But not otherwise We-can often import pig iron very cheaply.

1446. Does the rate of freight upon pig iron vary very greatly varies from 5s. a ton upwards. W e have had to pay as much as £ 1 a ton. It sometimes happens, when t hey are sending a new ship out here, that pig iron is used as ballast, so that the rate of freight is practically nothing. On several occasions since. I have been at Mort's Dock we have been able to get pig iron almost for nothing.

144 7. Does your firm buy scrap iron as well as pig iron we buy a good deal of scrap iron, especially in the form of railway L:hairs. We import hundreds of tons of railway L:hairs from England. Iron in that size is very easy to handle. There is not enough scrap iron procurable in the Commonwealth to keep us going.

1448. I suppose that the freight upon scrap iron would be as low as the freight upon pig iron, both being brought out as dead weight '1-Yes. 1449. Have you ever been short of pig or scrap iron owing to the late arrival of a -No, because we always keep such a large quantity in stock. Besides, we can always obtain plenty of pig iron locally.

1450. You have a general idea of the nature of the provisions of the Bonus Bill which was before the Commonwealth Parliament last session 7-I understand that it is proposed to give to the promoters of local iron works a bonus of so much per ton upon the amount of iron turned out by them each year. It seems to me that the proposition is practically t hat the Co=onwealth should build their works for them.

1451. Do you think the proposal justifiable from the point of view of t he consumers of raw iron 1 - I think that the bonuses proposed are far too high. 1452. It is proposed that a bonus of 12s. 6d. a ton shall be given for the production of pig iron ?-That would be an outrageous amount. We now have to pay 82s. a ton for pig iron landed in our yard. I understand, however, that it is claimed that pig iron can be manufactured at Lithgow for 35s. a ton. Adding another 15s. for freight and charges-a very liberal all owance-that would make the

price 50s. a ton. If they sold at 70s. the price would be lO s. below what we pay now, and would give t he producers £ 1 a ton profit. 1453. By JlJr. Joseph Cook.-The freight is only lOs. 6d. a ton '!-Yes, and therefore I call it a very liberal allo,vance to increase the price at Lithgow to 50s. a ton. If those who use iron in various . industries had to pay more for their raw material than they pay now, the establishment of local iron

works would be an injury rather than an advantage to them. The cost of pig iron at t he present time is higher than it used to be; I suppose, in consequence of the rise in wages in the United Kingdom. The object of ()'ranting bonuses is surely to reduce the price of the raw material ; and, that being so, I think t hat manufacturers to whom bonuses are paid should be bound to manufacture at certain specified rates.

1454. By .ilfr. Watson.-The Bill contains no stipulation of that kind '1-I understand t hat those who are engaged in the manufacture of iron under the Bill will be able to charge what they like for t he iron. 1455. No doubt t he price of the locally-made iron will be governed by the price of imported iron 1

- They would be able to make £1 a ton profit if they sold at 70s. a t on, which wou ld mean a total profit of about £90,000 upon the consumption of the Commonwealth. If they made a profit of £ 1 a ton in selling at 70s. a ton, they would be making a return of nearly 28 per cent. ; whereas, if we make a return of 5 per cent. or 6 per cent., we consider ourselves lucky. If they made the price 80s. they would nearly double their profit.

1456. What is the lowest price at which pig iron has been obtainable in Sydney during t he last five years ?-About 75s. a ton . Except in 1893, it has not been below 54s. or 56s. a ton in England for many years. In some parts of Cleveland iron has been cheaper, but it is not iron which is useful for our work.

1457. Is English and American iron on the whole suitable for similar purposes, or is the iron produced by the one country superior for all purposes to that produced by the other country 7-'l'here are .several brands of iron manufactured in England and Scotland. There is the Eglinton iron, the Gart­ shmTy iron, the Clyde iron, and several other brands of first-class quality. Then comes the

iron. It is of inferior quality, and can be obtailled for about lOs. a ton les&,

73

James P. Fra.nki, 8th Ap!·il, 1903.

1458. Is the Middlesbrough and Pittsburg iron of similar quality ?-No, the American iron is of the higher class. Of course, there ar e differen t brands of iron in America. I have never used Pittsburg but I have used several b rands of American iron which have been brought into this market, . and -tt has proved t o be of first-class quality, and equal t o any of the iron obtainable from the United Kingdom. Pit tsburg iron costs 59s. 7 d . a ton.

. . 1459. Tha t is to land it in England ?-Y es. The conditions in America are in many respects s1m1lar to those here. W ages there are as high as, if not high.er than, they are here. That being so, I think if American iron can be sold in England for 59s. 7d. a ton, iron could be manufactured and sold in Australia at that price.

1460. That is ass uming that we have sufficiently rich ore, suitable supplies of coal, and other necessary req uirements?--Y es. 1461. vVould you discriminate generally between English and American pig iron, or would you that, rou ghly speakin g, t here is a siniilarity of quality7-:-Y es. I think that some of the -American

1ron 1s eqmtl, if not superior, to English iron. America produces a much better pig iron for the manu­ facture of stoves, a nd for other special work. 1462. Are you of opinion tha t it is not necessary to grant bonuses for the establishment of iron­ works, or, at all events, that the bonuses should not be so large as those proposed7- I would encourage

the establishment of ironworks in another way- by promising to purchase from the promoters the whole of the rails requ ired throughout the Commonwealth at a small advance upon the present cos t of landing such rails in each Stat e, fixing a rate. The quantity of rails used by the State Governments is so large tha t the manufact ure of them would be suffic ient to keep the works going, and profi ts would be coming in t o the promoter s from the other work they would be abl e to do.

146 3. D o you think that, even if they wer e not able t o charge more for the rails than is being paid now, the advantage of having the sole contract for so large a supply would be a sufficient induce­ ment for the establishment of ironworks ?-I t hink that the promoter s should receive 5 per cent. upon the whole of the GoYcmment r equirements in the shape of raw mat erial such as rails, girders, and rolled iron generally. ·

1464. How much per cent. would that be ?- Five per cent. I would give them a preference of 5 per cent. upon all Government requirements. 1465. Do you think that would be suffi cient Wales Government used nearly 40,000 tons of rails. in the Commonwealth each year.

encouragement?- Yes. Last year the New South I estimate that fully 90,000 t ons of iron are used

1466. \ Ve have been informed that about 100,000 tons of iron are used by the various State Governments each year. I suppose you have noticed that the Full Court has just decided that the Commonwealth Government cannot levy duties upon State imports. That decision must affect private companies which are tendering for Government Under my scheme, it need not affect the

promoters of the proposed ironworks. I would guarantee to them for a period- say five yearc- the supply of all iron required by the State Governments. 1467. Do you t hink that, under those conditions, it would pay more than one firm to enter upon the manufacture of iron ?-Yes. I think there would be too much work for one firm, and that possibly there might be works here and other works in Tasmania; £250,000 would pay for a good-sized plant.

1468. Under Division VIA. of the Commonwealth Tariff, the Executive is empowered to subject all importations of pig, bar, plate, angle, and other iron to a duty of 10 per cent., if convinced that the production of iron within the Commonwealth is sufficient to supply local requirements. vVhat is your opinion upon t hat matted - My opinion is that the manufacturers of the Commonwealth should be allowed to obtain their raw material free, if possible. They should not be made to pay more for it than

they have to pay now. If we had to pay 10 per cent. more for our iron, it would cost us about 90s. a ton. If the Government wish to assist the manufacturers of the Commonwealth, they would not do so by increasing the price of their raw material. P lenty of people would be found willing to enter upon the establishment of ironworks if they were given a guarantee of the supply of all Government material

at a price 5 per cent. above the cost of the imported article. 1469. But t he Commonwealth Government could not give such a guarantee. It is only the State Governments who could give Y es, but the laws of the Commonwealth affect the whole community. 1470. In your opinion it would be a mistake to impose a duty. of 10 per cent. upon iron 7-It would be detrimental to the interests of local manufacturers wh o use iron. W e have too much to pay already in the shape of freight and other charges. We should be able to get our raw material as free as possible.

147 1. The duty upon manufactures of metal is per cent. ?-Y es, and in some cases 15 per cent. 1472. On most machinery the duty is 121 per cent. ?-Yes. .

14 73 . If you had to pay 10 per cent. upon the iron you imported, you would still be 2l per ce nt. better off than you were before there was a duty 7-A protection of 2l per cen t. would be of no service to us. It is only by being able to get our raw material free, and by having a duty of 12t per cent .. upon the manufactured article, that we can do anything. A s a matter of fac t , a duty of 12:} per cent. 1s not

hi()'h enouah to keep out forei

abroad. If we put engines into a vessel we have to pay duty upon them, but other people are allowtcl t o im port them and to place them cli1·ectly into the h ull s of vessels without paying d uty. 147 4. A nd a duty upon raw material would place yo u at a disa dYantage?--v\-e are already at a disad vantage, and a duty upon raw material wou ld make our position still worse. Jf a bo nu s is given for the manufacture of iron locally, it be stipulated that the iron when made will be placed upon

the market at a cheaper rate than t he imported ar ticle. Why should the public be taxed to pay these

James P. Franki, bth April, 1903. 74

bonuses if they are not to get a corresponding benefit. The Mort's Dock and Engineering Company have established works worth .£500,000 without getting a penny in the shape of bonus. We have made docks and provided valuable tools of trade without any assistance, and have not only established ourselves, but are progressing, though the drought and depression are making us slack just now. I am sure that if the promoters could be guaranteed the supply of all Government requirements, plenty of people would be willing to enter upon the manufacture of iron locally.

1475. By jlfr. Joseph Cook.-I understand your proposition to be that the various State Governments should promise to obtain all their raw mat erial from the proposed local iron works 1-Yes, for a period of five or t en years. 1476. And that you should be able to obtain your supplies of raw material free of duty'I--Yes.

1477 . Do you regard all kinds of finished iron as raw material ?-I r egard pig iron and rolled iron in various forms, which has undergone only one process of manufacture after leaving the pig iron stage, as raw material. 1478. But is not such iron the finished product of the manufacturer of iron 1-It is partly manu­ factured, but I speak of it as raw material. Rolled joists are a finish ed prod uct, but you make girders of them.

14 79. \Vhen you suggest t hat the various State Govemments should obtain all t heir supplies from the local manufacturer, you mean t hat the people whom those Governments represent should do so. You propose that the people of the various States should pay more for the iron they require for Govern­ ment purposes than they pay now, in order to encourage the local production of iron ?-I would limit the arrangement to a certain specified t erm-five years, or perhaps a little longer. I would not make the arrangement an interminable one ; it should not last for more than ten at the very most. By the end of that time the promoters of the local works should be able to withstand competition. The encouragement which they would have received would have nearly enabled t hem to pay for their works.

1480. Will not a theory which applies to bonuses apply also to duties. Would you be willing to have the duty upon manufactures of metals removed at the end of five years, on the ground that at the end of that period you will be a.hle to compete against other manufacturers without assistance ?-A duty is different from a bonus, inasmuch as it affects everybody.

148 1. Under your arrangement, the local manufacturers of iron would at the end of fi ve years have to compete with manufacturers abroad without assistance, and it is contended that at the present time they cannot do that ?-But the statements of t hose interested in the matter do not bear out that contention. They say that they can produce pig iron for 35s. a ton.

1482. But at the end of five years you wo 'ld cut off the advantage that you propose to give them 1-Yes, because by t hat time they would practically have been able to pay for their works. 1483. My point is that if the manufacturers of iron could be expected to compete with foreign manufacturers after a period of five years, other local manufacturers should similarly be able to compete with foreign manufacturers without the aid of duties after a period of five years ?-Every industry must stand upon its own merits. Some industries could compete without assistance, and this is one of them. I am satisfied of that upon the evidence of those interested, who say that they can produce pig iron at Lithgow for 35s. a ton. Making a liberal allowance for freight and other charges, the iron would not cost them more than 50s. a ton delivered in Sydney, and as people would be very glad to pay 70s. a ton for it, that would give them a profit of at least .£1 a ton.

1484. You assum e that if a duty is placed upon iron, it will increase in price'I--Yes, and that will injure the manufacturers who use iron. ·

1485. I suppose that, as a matter of fact, duties always increase prices ?-Yes, they must. Upon castings we do not make 5 per cent., and if we have to pay 10 per cent. upon our raw material, we are considerably injured. Instead of charging .£12 a ton, we should have to increase our price to .£12 8s. 1486. Then you think that if bonuses are paid some guarantee should be given to the users of iron that the price will not be materially increased 1-Yes. I have never known a case in which a bonus was given without some guarantee to safeguard the consumer. I take it that whenever a concession is given by a Government it is given with the object of benefiting the community at large which pays for it.

You should not allow those to whom you give bonuses to charge what they like for their productions. If you do, they will let the public whistle for the benefits which were hoped for. 1487. You have said that the bonus which is proposed wo uld be sufficient to enable the promoters of an iron industry to build t heir works. Similarly, will not a duty of 122- per cent upon manufactures

of metal enable the company which you represent to build their works, seeing what a huge turnover you have. Do you see any pistinction between a duty and a bonus ?-The difference between them is that a bonus is paid by a Government directly to a manufacturer, whereas when a duty is imposed the manufacturers have to pay it.

1488. But bPfore a bonus can be paid the money haR to be collected from the taxpayers generally 1 -Every taxpayer in the State contributes towardP .1y bonus that may be paid, but the · manufacturers in particular lines of business pay the duties. In-JT1y opinion it would be better for the Government to encourage the establishment of ironworks by agreeing to purchase their own requirements for a term of years from the promoters, t hus guaranteeing them so much work.

1489. By Mr. Jlfctuge?·.-You say that duties increase prices ?--Y es. 1490. Have yo u never heard of internal competition reducing prices below t he point at which O'Oods could be imported ?-I have, but what is the result. If you go no further than the presen t Commonwealth capital, Melbourne-and we have had several cases in Sydney- you will see the res ult in the bankruptcy of manufacturers. Is it desi rable for a Government to pass laws which bring about such· a state of things as that.

149 1. vVhy do the manufacturers go bankrupt ?- Because the poor unfortunate men, in order to get something to do, have to cut t heir prices lower and lower, until it is impossible for them to make a profit. 1492. Still the competition increases the price of the commodities affected '1----At the absolute loss of the manufacturers.

75

1501

James P. Franki, 8th April, 1903.

1493. What I want to know is if you have not known of many instances in which the effect of a duty has been to decrease prices even to a non-paying point 7-I do not say that the effect of a duty is to bring prices down. 1494. The effect of internal competition is to bring down prices ?-That has nothing to do with the duty.

1495. W ould you have internal competition without a duty 7-Ycs. 1496. Then duties do not produce internal competition and bring people to the insolvency court ? -Yes they do, because they add so much more to the cost of a manufacturer's operations. 14\!7. speaking about duties upon manufactured articles . Does it necessarily follow, when t he raw matenal 1s produced within a State, or is admitted duty free, that the price of the manufactured article whose importation is subj ect to duty is increased. Take, for in stance, boots. Do you think that

because there is -a duty of 30 per cent. upon boots they mu st necessaril y be dearer, notwithstandino- the competition in the home do not know what effect theduty upon boots has had upon th:boot

industry, but I know the effect of duties upon the iron industry, ·

1498. You said that it would be of grea.t advantage to you for bar iron to be manufactured within t he Commonwealth ?-It wou ld be a convenience. · 1499 . You said that you would be prepared to pay per cent. more, plus freights and charges, for locally-manufactured iron than you now pay for imported iron. Why co uld you not also afford to

pay more for pig iron ?-For several reasons. In the first pl:we pig iron is (;heaper than bar and pl ate iron, and can be used for any purpose. The great convenience that a local iron industry would be to us is in regard to large plates for ship repairin g. ·

1500. Y ou import pig iron 7- Yes. 1501. And manufacture it at your works?- Yes. 1502. How do the wages paid by the Mo!·t's Dock Company compare with those paid in England? - The wages we pay are about the same as those paid in America, and about double those paid in

England. In England they pay 7d. or 8d. an hour, when•as we pay from l s. 3d. to ls. 4d. 1503. You are not opposed to the principle of bonuses, but you think that there should be some stipulation in regard to the price to be charged to the consumer ?-The price should be below the price at which the article can be imported.

1504. The enconragement you ad vocate is a five years guarantee of all Government work at a price 5 per cent. higher than the price of importation, together with freights and charges ?-I consider that the most legitimate way of encouraging the iron industry. 1505. Howmany men would be employed in the industry if the Commonwealth manufactured all

the iron required by it 'I--I have not made a calculation, but I should think that it would take from 500 to 1,000 men to meet the prese nt requirements of the Commonwealth. 1506. If a guarantee were given that there should be no increase of price would you oppose a duty of 12 per cent.1-No. That would have the same effect as .the arrangement I suggest.

1507. By i1:f1·. Watkins.- You have said that you think the payment of a bonus would increase the price of iron. Why do you think that ?-A duty would increase the p·;cc of iron. I did not say that a bonus would do so. I understand that the object of bonuses is to enable an industry to be built up for the benefit of the whole body of consumers. . There is, however, nothing in t he Bill into which you are inquiring which guarantees any benefit to the consumers.

1508. While the bonuses were being paid and the raw material was being admitted f1·ee would the operations of a local company tend to increase or to decrease t he prices 'l--It would be only human for those interested in the company to keep prices as they are. 1509. Have you considered what has been the effect of the of ironworks in other

parts of the world, such as the United States of America or Canada 1--N ot sufficiently to be able to give an opinion upon the subject. 1510. Pig iron is not so dear in America as it is here1-No. 1511. Then the result of the American encouragement of the iron industry has not been to increase the price of iron America the local iron industry was encouraged by shutting out Engli ·h

production. .

1512. The object being to give American manufacturers the control of their own markets 1-Y es. I think that pig iron is about as high in America for the local consumer as it is in England. .

15!3. Has not the American system achieved practically th e same res ul t as you would achreve with a State guarantee '1--N o. vVhat I propose is that the Government should guarantee t he promoters of an iron industry as much work as would enable them to establish their but .I would not com ­ pel the manufacturers who have to buy iron to pay the whole amount. A bon.uR 1s contnbute? ?Y every taxpayer in the country, whereas a duty is paid only by those who buy the artrcle upo.n wh rch rt 1s

1514. You do not object to the State having to pay, say, 5 per cent. more for 1ts raw ma tenal for a period of years, but you would object to private consumers having . to uo so '1--Yes, anything the Government pay comes out of everybouy's pockets, whereas a duty IS patd by _onlt a fe w 1515. By Mr. Watson.- Who cannot pass it on because of the compet1t10n 1-Yes. Ihose "ho

use most have to pay most. . .

1516. By M1·. Watkins.--Have you any as to what 1t would cost to establish

large enough to supply three-fourths of the wants of the Commonwealth 1-I thwk that betw een £1 o0,000 and £200,000 would build very goo d works to start with. . . . ..

1517. You understand that it is not proposed to gn-e away £2oO,O vO n ght off?- l" o, bu c the promoters of any ironworks will have that sum in prospect. 1518. Moreover, it iR not certain that the wh ole amount will be paid to n,ny one firm. There may be two or t hree firms 1-I do not there .will be two or three firms to com mence with, because the consumption of the Common wealth 1s not sufficrently large: Of cout·;; , a ; the grew the

works could be enlarged. It is always much more econ 0!11W-Ll to c:trry 0:1 a htrJe est::tblt-;h 1n.1t than a small one. 1519. Have you had any experience in t he manufacture of pig iron?-:-Yes, a little.

James P. Franki1 8th April, 1903. 76

1520. I s t here anything in the contention that t he erection of furnaces for the production of ore wou ld be very la rgely a specul ation: should not be a speculative affair. I was assistant manager at :Fitz roy, near Mittagong, 35 years ago, when the cylinders for the Gundagai-bridge were manufactured there. We t hen made magnificent pig iron.

152 1. You appear to favour the idea that the States should contract to purchase their supplies of iron for a certain number of years from the persons who erect iron ore reducing works. What is your opinion as to the advisability of the State having its own ironworks 7-I do not t hink the State would make a good job of it. An enterprise of this kind must be left to private individuals. If you make it a State matter you will kill t he industry altogether.

1522. But you t hink that the State Governments should patronize those who establish the industry 7-Y es, and when the Government have put them on their legs they will be able to compete against foreign manufactures. 1523. The Mort's Dock Company does a good deal of work for the Government from time to time 7- 'Ve used to do a gqod deal of Government work.

1524. And some of the Government work is done at the Government workshops '!-Y es. 1525. What is mw material to you at Mort's Doc k is raw material to the Government at Fitzroy D ock '1-Y es. 1526 . In a sense you compete with the employes of the Government for the work which has to be done for the State. If the State were bound to pay 5 per cent. more than the English price for the iron it required, wo uld not that handicap the Government workshops '!-The work done by the Govern­ ment would cost them so much more, but I do not regard the Government as a manufacturer. 'Vhat little is done at. the Fitzroy Dock is hardly wo rt h talking abeut. I dare say t hat nine-tenths of the Government work is carTied out by priv:tte individuals in England and elsewhere.

1527. By Mr. TJTatson.-Have you gone into the question sufficien tly to feel justified in expressing an opinion as to whether there would be room for more than one large ironwo rks in Australi:t 7-At the present time there would be room for only one. . ·

1528. Then if there were a d uty upon iron, t hat firm would have a monopoly of the local market 1 - Y es.

1529. I s it not likely that t he users of iron would be more likely to purchase it cheaply from works which were a Government monopoly than from works which were a priva.t e monopoly ?-Govern­ ment works could not produce iron as cheaply as works carried out by pri,vate individuals. 1530. L et us assume that they vould 7-I am certain that they could not. E ve cy consumer of iron would oppose the establishment of Government works tooth and nail, because they could not produce iron as cheaply as it co uld be produced by private works. The Government should g uarantee to take t heir supplies fr-om the private wo rks for, say, fiv e years1 an<;l after t hat those works would be able to carry on without State assistance, · ·

Hector Lamond, sworn and examined.

1531. By lvfr. TV atson.-Y ou are the President of the Political Labour L eague- of New South Wales 1-Y es . 1532. You are acquainted generally with the obj ect of the C9mmission's investigation 7-Yes. The organization with which I am connected takes the view that the iron industry, above any other, should be controlled by t he State, because of the fa ct that for many years to come it must be a monopoly in Australia. The capital required to give it anything like a fair start could only be found by a large corporation, and there would be a very small chance, we think, of a second company with sufficient capital being formed to conduct the industry. For this reason, among others, we think that the industry ought to be a State mo nopoly. Another consideration is that it must be admitted that there will be very grave difficulties in the way of the establishment of the iron industry with such a small population as we have at present, and that the only guarantee of the work being carried to a successful iss ue would be afford ed by the State embarking a considerable sum in establishing it. The position of the iron industry in Russia has had considerable weight in inducing me to take this view. In that country, although an immense private industry has been established, this result has only been achieved after repeated effor ts of t he State to encourage it. The Government started by treating their native ores and producing pig iron, and finding then that sufficient capital was not forthcoming from private individuals to utilize the raw product, they established foundries for t.he manufacture of rails and many other a rtides used by the Government. After a time, when it was proved that the industry could be carried on successfully, private companies came in and established works, which have been largely expanded during the past century. The result is that the private production is now much larger than t hat carried on by the State. I have not been able t o get certain figures which I had intended to lay before the Commission with regard to the operation of the iron bonus in Canada, but experience there also supports the position we take up that t he payment of bonuses to private individuals.has led to very large

expenditure without securing that efficiency which would have attended a State monopoly of the industry. It seems to me inevitable that, if a sufficient bonus is given to induce more than one company to embark in the production of iron, that article will be produced largely for the sake of the and the industry will not be established upon the same permanent footing as if the State undertook the work. Under a State monopoly we could rest assured that every shilling of the people's money would be spent for tl1e of establishing t he industry and ,for that alone, and we should also secu re a supply of the raw matenal

or a large number of industries which the State itself might not feel inclined to take up. I understar..d from the evidence of Mr. Sandford that pig iron co uld be produced in Australia at a lower rate than in either of t he two great iron-producing countries of the world. If that is so, the State could produce th iron as cheaply as could a privaGe is, given the same wages conditions, and that we should

insist upon, whether the works were conducted by private enterprise or by the State. The resu_l t of State monopoly would be that all the industries of which iron is the raw material would be placed m an infinitely better position to procure it cheaply than if they were dependent upon private

77

1503

Hector Lamond, 8th April, 1903.

1533. It would cost the State just as much to produce ?-Yes; but firstly the State would not desire to make any considerable profit out of the transaction, and another factor that would work for would be t hat, under ordinary conditions, the State would be able to secure the capital

necessar y at a lower rate than that at which it would be available to a private company. At any rate, the State wo uld be content with a lo,ver rate of profit than would a private company. Another develop­ ment which, I t hink, should receive consideration is the progress of the industry in .Japan. During the last year the Japanese Government have spent something over .£2,000,000 in an attempt to establish the iron industry in J apan. They are very n ear neighbours of ours, and in any competition that might arise would certainly play a very important part. This fact could not be ignored by any capitalists who

might contempbte t he of their money in the iron industry in Australia. Being near at hand

the J apanese co uld compete very easily, and as their industry is a State concern, they would have all t he advantages which we claim would arise from the establishment of a State monopoly here. Only three or four ago it was stated in the con sular reports that Japan had, practically, no iron ore, but in the later reports announciug t he establishment of ironworko and foundries in J apan, it is stated that there

are enormous d eposits of ore in that country which the Government are determined to develop, and the great expenditure which they have already incurred is an earnest of their intention. 15 34. Y ou have perhaps considered the fact that the State Governments are by far the largest co nsumers of iron within the Commonwealth ?-Yes, and that is one of the strongest reasons why this subject has been ardently discussed by our organizations. All the States are large consumers of iron,

es pecially N ew South Wales and Victoria, and they would be r equired, in the event of ironworks being established by private enterprise, to pay pretty highly for the privilege of buying ma,terial which they could themseh ·es manufacture. The same principle which governs the State ownership of the rail ways would apply to the manufacture of the rails required for their construction and maintenance.

1535. H ave yo u considered the extent to which it would be desirable for the State to go in regard to the manufacture of iron-how much of the industry they sh9uld take up?- My personal view is that at the outset, at any rate, the State should seek to manufacture only pig iron for sale to those who would start or carry on other industries, and such lines of iron manufactures as the State itself requires, viz.­ ra ils, for the railways; girders, for bridges, and similar classes of work. Any attempt to launch an

enormous industry-whether it be made by the State or by priv:tte companies-must result in failure if too much is attempted at the outset. The consumption of iron products in Australia is not sufficiently large to warrant the of every branch of the industry at the inception, whatever may be

the case in years to come. Of course, if the State decided to manufacture pig iron, it would be seen b efore many years whether it would be wise on their pa.rt to extend their operations into other branches. We should then have data to work upon, which it is most difficult to obtain at present owing to the fact that no Australian State has yet attempted anything in this direction.

1536. Rave you inquired into the result of the experiment of the South Australian Government in the manufacture of pipes ?-No, I have not. 15 37. It has been objected that State management would be more costly than that of private enterprise 'I-There is no reason why it should be. One of the essentials in connexion with the establish­ ment of a State industry is that it should be placed entirely beyond political .control. If the State engaged as manager a man equal in capacity to the managers of the big ironworks in other countries, there .is absolutely no reason why he should not be able to spend State money to the same advantage as if the funds b elonged to a private company. The only danger of State ownership is that political control might be exercised ; but I hope that, if the experiment is tried, nothing of that kind will be permitted. I am certain that the enterprise would not succeed to the same extent as if it were beyond

political control. 1538. I take it that you suggest a management similar to that which controls the milways, where the Commissioners, or managers, are given a free hand as to the conduct of the business?-Yes; it seems to me that that would be necessary to insure success.

1539. By JV!r. Fuller·.-Supposing that the State ironworks were placed under a commissioner, or manager, with powers similar to those exercised by the ltailway Commissioners, would you give the manager complete control with regard to the extension of the works ?-I have not thought very much about that point, but I should say that the extension of the work into new branches would be a matter for the State itself to decide.

1540. Suppose, for example, t hat we had an turning out 100,000 tons of iron

annum and the manaaer thoucrht it desirable to increase the output t o 200,000 tons, would you giYe him power to do :o 'I-I not think I should. I think there would have t o be some to the

sum of money which the manager could spend in going beyond the idea, whatever that be.

1541. Although the Railway Commissioners are beyond control, they are from time time called upon to take over new railway lines which result from political actwn. vVould you avoid any such result in connexion with State ironworks ?-It do es not seem to me that State ironworks would be on exactly the same plane as our railways. .

1542. I do not myself see that they would .be the ma.nager of the would

require to have fairly full powers as to extensions without bemg m a !?OsitiOn to Jeopardize the finances in any way. The control of the State Treasurer over the expenditure would have to be exerciseu at some stage. .

1543. You state that in Russia, although t he first wo rks were established by the Government, private works :1re now being conducted upon a much. larger those belonging to the State.

Could you tell us if the private and State works are be1ng run m oppos.I tiOn to each other could not say, but I do not think so . The Government wo rks were started first m the U ral l\iountams, t he most important iron-mining centre in Russia, as far back as the seventeent.h century. 1544. By TV atkins.-vVere they worked by free or by pnson labour ?-I co uld not say. It was found that the transportation of t he pig iron from the U rals to the south of Russia was so expensive as seriously to hamper the industries depending upon pig iron as raw milterial, and the Government

therefore made efforts to establish the industry in the south-of that happened much more

Heeter-Lamond, 8th April, 1903. 78

recently- and they assisted the industry in every way. They tried the production of pig iron themselves, and they offered inducements to private individuals to es tablish works by giving a bonus and imposing duties. I think that they absolutely prohibited the importation of iron. The result of all this was that a large number of private firms sprang into existence, but the Government have continued the works with the object of helping, rather than competing with, private establishrnenk

1545. By fih. Futler.-In your opinion did the action of the Government, in establishing works in the first instance, lead to the development of private enterprise ?-I think so. The Government simply demonstrated what could be done, and pioneered the industry. 1546. And the private enterprises have been carried on under a system of bonuses and protective duties ?- Yes, and by having the advantage of Government orders.

1547. You stated that the bonus system in Canada had resulted in the development of private enterprise, but had not secured efficiency ?- Yes. I do not care to speak with too much certainty upon that point, but I understand, with to Canada, that the industries established are out of proportion to the requirements of the Dominion-that the large bonuses have caused industries to be established which are the rCISult of the bonuses rather than of the legitimate requirements of the people. The establishment of State works would give the people who find the money the assurance that every pound put into the industry would be spent for the encouragement of it, and such a scheme would be economical in that only the amount necessary to establish the industry would be taken from the taxpayers.

1548. Are you aware that a number of the Canadian ironworks of more recent date have been idle lately ?-I do not know. 1549. Are the ironworks in Japan a State concern 1-Yes. 15o0. Do you know what stage their enterprise has reached ?-Their works were opened in last April, and therefore it is too soon to expect information which would enable us to judge of their success or otherwise.

1551. Could you give us an idea to the capacity of their works 1--No, except so far as the cost of their establishment may be a guide. 1552. By jJir. fi£auger.-Have you any practical knowledge of the output or capacity of iron­ works?-No.

1553. As a matter of fact are not the ironworks in Russia a State monopoly ?-No. 1554. Then the conditions there would form no example for us in judging whether there would be room for private enterprise 7-N o, the conditions are different. The only point of resemblance is that in Australia it is necessary to offer some encouragement for the establishment of the industry, which is

essential to the progress of a country such as ours. 1555. You think that, either by Government or by private enterprise, the indus_ try should certainly be established and developed ?-Yes. 1556. Is there any chance of the New South -Wales Government being impelled to establish this industry, as the result of an appeal to the people ?-It is always very difficult to say what would be the result of an appeal to the people.

1557. Have you any idea of the proportion of members in the present State Legislature of New South Wales who are favorable to a State monopoly of the iron industry ?-The proportion is no doubt small, but very much depends upon the attitude of the Government, and it is impossible to say at present how far a Government scheme would be supported. If the Government were in favour of a State monopoly, their proposal would secure a large number of supporters.

1558. Is there, in the immediate or near future, a prospect of any Government undertaking this enterprise ?-I do not think that the Government or the Opposition would advocate it at the next general election, but there is certainly a very strong feeling in favour of it to-day throughout trades union circles, and if the unionists take up the subject their attitude will have a very strong influence upon the elections. -

1559. There would have to be a monopoly on the part either of the State or of private enterprise: the competition of the State with private enterprise would be impossible?- Yes, in the same class of work. If the State launched into the production of pig i'ron, it would certainly not allow any private company to compete.

1560. If it is desirable to establish a State monopoly in the production of the raw material, why not extend it to all branches of the iron industry ?-I am in favour of that, but I think that the exten­ sion should be gradual. 1561. Do your Government build their own locomotives ?-Not now, but I believe they have put one or two together in the railway workshops.

1562. We were told this morning that the Government could not produce material as cheaply as private employers, but the experience in Victoria has been quite to the contrary?-We have not had any experience here with regard to locomotives, but recently we waited on the State Treasurer with regard to the expansion of the railway workshops, and he promised to get us certain information with regard to

the practicability of building locomotives at reasonable cost in the Government workshops. I see no reason, and I do not think that any one else can, why the State should not be able to carry on the iron industry as well as any other undertaking. 1563. Have you in your mind any analogous industry which the Government have managed successfully?-The Railway Commissioners have turned out their own rolling-stock, and it is admitted that they have carried out the work more cheaply than private firms, and that the workmanship has been of a superior class.

1564. Do they pay as high wages as the outside manufacturer?-Yes. 1565. And you contend that if they can turn out a manufactured article, they could with equal advantaae produce raw iron from the ore taken from the bowels of the earth?-Yes, certainly. !"566. You do not know anything about the Japan monopoly beyond what you have read ?-No.

1567. Unfortunately the Federal Goyernment are unable to undertake an enterprise of this kind. Do you not think it would be better if it were managed by the Federal Government for the whole of the States 1-Yes, undoubtedly.

79

1505

Hector Lamond, 8th April, 1903.

1568. Do you think your organization would favour an alteration of the Con stitution to enable that to be done 7-I think they would. 1569. Would it not be greatly to the ad of the people generally if the central Government could manufacture for the whole of Australia?-Yes, there are many reasons why t.hat would be better if it could be done. One of t.he diffic ult ies of Sta.te ownership-say that Tasmania owned the ironworks - is that the other States would b independent and to purchase their requirements from Tasmania, or from abroad, just as they chose.

1570. Do you know anything of the relu.tiYe rates of wages of ironworkers in Japan and Australia, 7-N o.

No.

1571. You do not know t he kind of labour employed in tlle iron industry in R ussia or J a.pan ?-15! 2. Are there trades unions in either of these countries?-Yes; there is a very strong trades umon movement m Japan. I assume t hat the J apanese workers would be paid fairly high wages in comparison wi th the rates generally prevailing in t hat country, b ut I dare say ou r rates would be co nsiderably higher.

1573 . Have you any Journeymen Ironworkers' Association represented in your organization 1-N o ; I do not think there is any sueh asso ·iation directly represented. 157 4. You are not in a position to tell us the views of the journeymen ironworkers with regard to this proposal 1-I should prefer you to call t heir officials. The subject has been given considerable

prominence by the unions, and no dissenting voice has been raised against t he State ownership proposal. 157[). Supposing that it came to a question of postponing the development of the iron industry fo r five or ten years, until public opinion could be worked up in favour of a State monopoly, or the

granting of a bonus, what attitude would you take up in the meantime ?-I should advocate the post­ ponement. 1576 . Rather than have t he industry developed by means of a bonus to privat e enterprise ?­ I should prefer t he ·urety of the establishment of the industry by t he State rather than t he possibility of its failure as a private enterprise.

1577. B y J oseph 'Cook.-Do you thil)k it possible for the industry t o succeed without a bonus ? - I cannot say t hat I know sufficient of the circumstances to assert positively that the industry would be a failure as a private enterprise, but I shoul d rather wait and have it es tablished as a State industry, which wou ld sec ure, practically for all time, to the other industries dependent upon it, the raw material at the cheapest possibl e rates. I would prefer this, rather than establish a big monopoly under primte enterprise, which might take the fi eld perhaps five or ten years earlier than the State would be prepared

to do so. 1578. By 1111· . .Afau9e?'.-Supposing that a bonus were given to private enterprise with conditions as to the prices to be charged to consumers and t he wages to be paid, what would be your view of such a proposal as an alternative to waiting ?-I shou ld prefer to see t he industry established a.s a State

monopoly under any circumstances. The difficulty of enforcing agreements of t he kind suggested are very great indeed. vVe have found t hat out in connexion with t he Early Closing Act and the awards of the A rbitration Court. We know t hat the conditions imposed are being evaded through the difficulty in securing compliance with them. On the other hand, if the State owned the works, we should know that

the conditions laid down would be closely observed throughout. 1579. There would be no evasion in connexion with the State works ?-There is no reason why there should be. 1580. B y 11!?'. lVatkins.-You stated that you waited on the State Treasurer with other members of your organization with regard to the extension of the scope of the railway workshops. Could

you tell us what encouragement you received 7-0ur representations were made in connexion with the dismissal of hands from the railway workshops. 1581. Y our organization did not approach the Treasurer in connexion with this particular matted-No, we asked him to secu re the consent of the Railways Commissioners to the manufacture of

t he goods required by t hem in the State workshops. 1582. By kh·. J oseph Cook.-But did not yonr organization also approach the Minister for vVorks with regard to the establishment of State ironworks ?-Yes, but that was another deputation. That was not t he occasion I refer to.

1583 . By .AlT. Watkins. - Do yo u remember reply gi,·en by Minister ?-Mr. O'Sullivan practically expressed himself as being in syn>pathy W<0h the establishment of State ironworks, although the Government of which he is a member were opposed to it. He stated that he was only one of several Ministers, and t hat Sir John See had expressed the opinion that the State would not establish the works. ·

1584. By Jh. 1Vcttson.-Have you any id ea of t h-e number of members in the State House who are in favour of the State undertakina work of this so rt ?-I do not know t he exact number of members who voted in favour of the proposal when a division was taken in the some t ime ago. . 1585. The members of the Parliamentary Labour Party are all m favour of the Idea Possibly 30 or 35 members out of 125 have openly themselves in _fav.our of State iron­

works, but. I would r.oint out that the results of do r:ot the opmwns of Members

of Parliament. They are sometimes due to the ex1gene1es _of the times. Some no

doubt voted against the proposal, alth.ough were m favour It, because of the attitude of

Government and the knowledge that If a maJonty were secured for 1t the GoYernment would be placed m an awkward' position. Therefore a is always a real the public sentiment.

1586 . Do you think that a fa1r proportiOn of the people outs1de are m favour of t he Government taking up this work of primary production?- Yes. . . . .

1587. I n t his instance there are no vested mterests to cons1der ?-No. Generally the view I S that t he establishment of ironworks is an expensive undertaking upon which the State could embark with much more success than could private enterprise; particularly in view of the fact that so many

Hector"Lamond, 8th April, 1903. 80

years have elapsed without anything of permanent value being done. It is roughly estimated that 10,000 men would be maintained by the works as first established, and, of course, that would be a most important matter to the State. This is recognised by a large number of people who are not in sympathy with the labour claims for State employment in other directions. A good many·people who would not support our policy as to the State ownership of other industries would support us in this.

1588. There is a n absence of vested interests such as might interfere in other cases ?-Yes. l'here is no private enterprise that would be affec ted by the proposed State monopoly. 1589. Then of course there is the point of v:iew of the consumers of the iron ?-Yes, that is one of the p ::>in ts I have been t rying to make, namely, that there is a better assm·ance of the establish­

ment of the secondary industries, owing to the sma-ller cost to the purchaser of t he· iron produced in the State works. Any private company would expect to make a considerable profit out of their business. They would be taking enormous risks, and would expect commensurate profits. 1590. Do you consid er that there is a likelihood that the profit r equired by the private individuaJ would be so g reat as to counterbalance, so far as the co nsumer was concerned, the economy which the private individual might be a-ble to effect, as compared with the managers of a State concern ?-I do not admit that under competent management the private enterprise would be able to effect economies beyond

those which the State would observe. 159 1. P erhaps not, but it is Claimed that it could New South ·wales the balance of

experience has been in favour of the State in every instance in which we have had an opportunity of judging. Our great public works have been carried out under State direction in such a way as to show a p rofit when compared with the cost under private contractors. In connexion with t he works now pro­ ceeding at the Prince Alfred H ospital, the Build ers and Contractors' A ssociation were ·asked to compete against the State department · under conditions which were laid down by a non-political body, namely, the Committee of t he Hospital. They declined, h owever, to take up the chall enge. Unless the private employer cuts wage 3, there is no way in which he can save money except those which are equally open to the of the State concern. · ,

1592. I understand that the Railways Commissioners have carried out by day labour a great deal of work in connexion with devilLtions and regradings They are by far the largest employers of all the State departments, and ha ve been most successful. 1593. H ave the res ults been economical 7-The fact t hat they have been economical seems to be proved by the circumstance that the Commissioners, although under no compulsion, continue to carry · out t heir work under the day labour Some of the larger firms in Sydney also do their work by

means of day labour. It seems to me that the establishmen t of industries that require pig iron as raw material would have a better security in the event of the State ownership of the primary industry than if it were controlled by private enterprise. Given the same economical management by. the State and the priva.te employer, the cost of production would be the same in either case, whereas the profit required by the private company might be sufficient to turn the scales towards failure instead of success in the dependent industries.

1594. By M?· . J oseph Cook.--Are you not proceeding upon t he assumption that the primary and the secondary industries wo uld be separated?-Yes, t o some degree. 1595. That is not the proposal here. vVe have in view the manufacture of the finished product 7 - Y es, with regard to rails and plates and so on, but not the manufacture of screws, bolts, and similar articles. The fu rther you go with the industry the greater the sav:ing effected, step by step, as you

proceed. 1596. I understood you to say that the manufacturers of fin ished iron such as bars and plates would have an advantage if the manufacture of pig i1'on were monopolized by t he State 7-I take it that the manufacture of ba r iron would be a branch of the primary industry, but I have no technical knowledge of the business. I regard as secondary industries the manufacture of screws, machinery, and so on. vVith regard to what the Government would undertake, I should think that if they established works for the production of pig iron they would also carry on the branches of industry that are usually associated with the production of pig, rather t han allow them to be conducted in separate establishments. I am told that there is considerable economy effected in the manufacture of rails by saving t he cost of reheating t he iron.

159 7. Well, as there are fi ve or six companies now engaged in the production of bars and plates your idea would be to supersede them 7-I have not considered that aspect of the matter. 1598. If the production of pig iron were to go on under the Government auspices, would you sell the pig to t he manufacturers of the more finished iron, and thus enable them to compete with the .

Government. For instance, Mr. Sandford is making iron from scrap and Messrs. Brown and Brown and some of the Melbourne firms are carrying on similar operations. \Vhat would you do in their cases?­ That is a question t hat I have not suffi ciently qpnsidered. 1599. B y Mr·. Mauger.- vVould you stop at t he production of the raw material in the State

works '!--No. I should, in the init ial stages, produce everything that the State requires; but I have not considered the question of supplying the outside public. If private enterprise could produce iron at a cheaper price t han the State, I should welcome· such a condition of affairs. However, I do not see how a private individu al could com pete with the Stat e under equal conditions as to wages and the cost of

raw material, because he would require a larger rate of profit on his outlay. 1600. Then the establishment of iron works such as you contemplate would inevitably lead to the supersession of the existing ironworks?-Yes, I think so. I am perfectly satisfied that the iron industry would be a monopoly, and t hat it should be a State monopoly.

1601. ·By Jl[r. Watson.- In some ironworks, I understand t hat they roll the iron and carry on general engineering works in connexion with their rolling mills 'I--Y es; but t he probability is t hat they will be willing to take their plates and bars from the State works rather than manufacture them for t hemselves.

1602. By Jib· . Maug e1·.-Don't you think that a great deal of opposition to t he proposal for the establishment of State ironworks would be removed if operations were confined, in the iirst instance, to

81

1507

Hectol' Lamond, 8th A pl'il, 1903.

the production of raw material7-It depends upon the extent to which you would go. If the F ederal Government undertook the work, they would probably confine it, at t he outset, to pig iron and railway rails, without concerning themselves with such operations as would affect private enterprise. 1603. By j)f?·. J oseph Cook. - You understand that the Governments are the principal

customers of the private firms engaged in the iron trade?- Y es. In the present condition of affairs capital would be put into the iron industry here with a view to earn profit from the State Governments. 1604. By .Ah. FulleT.-How are you going to insist upon the State Govemments taking iron from the Federal ironworks is one of the difficulties, but probably it is one that can be easily

overcome. 1605. By ll£1· . .AfaugeT.-Have you thought over any means that could be dev ised for testing the public feeling in this matter. Have you considered the question of asking the State Govemments most interested to make this question a subj ect for the referendum at the next election ?-No, I hcwe not

thought of that. P er sonally, I doubt whether public opinion in N ew South Wales- or, in fact, in any part of Australia- has been sufficien tly educated to give us any surety of success from a referendum at the next election, which takes place in about a year. 1606. By M1·. Joseph Cou k. - You say that you think that the iron industry needs some encourage­

ment 7-Y es . 1607. Can you tell us why ?-My only reason for saying so is that up to the prese.nt no effort has been made to establish the primary iron industry in any part of Australia. 1608. And you argue from t hat that it is impossible to do so without some State encouragement ? - I should not like to say that it is impossible, but in order to secure the establishment of the industry at an early date I should be prepared to pay a good deal.

1609. Supposing it were impracticable for the State to undertake this enterprise for years to come, what would be your attitude towards the iron industry; would you offer a bonus or impose a duty ?-P er­ sonally, I should be inclined to give a bonus for a numbe r· of. years, but I know that the inevitable result would be an application for the renewal of t he bonus after the expiration of the period fi xed in t he first instance. By encouraging the industry in t hat way I a m afraid we should lead to the same condit ion of

affai1·s that exists in Cai!ada. Supposing we gave a bonus suffi cient to secure the establishment of the industry, we should create a monopoly in the first place, and the greater the number of men employed and the more important the industry became, the greater would be the pressure upon the Government to continue or increase the bonus; wh ether such continuation or increase were warranted to sec1;1re the

legitimate purposes of the bonus, or simply went to swell the profits of those engaged in the enterprise. 1610. Then what do you t hink should be the attitude of the Commissioners towards the present Bill, which provides for the establishment of the industry either by the State or by private I should omit all refer ence to private enterprise, and make an effort to secure State ownership.

1611. If that were not possible, you would oppose the Bill do not care to go as fa r as that. Our organization is of a non-fiscal character, and I do not wish to obtrude my private opinion. 1611A. By fib ·. Fulle1 ·. - You stated that the inevitable result of offe!'ing bonuses would be an application for their continuation or increase at the expiration of the period originally fixed, whether that were necessary or not is the case everywhere.

· 161 2. Has not exactly the same thing happened in connexion with t he protective duties in the United States, so far as t hey affect the iron industry 7-Yes, it is everywhere the same; it is only human nature that it should be so .

(Taken at Sydney.)

THURSDAY, 9m APRIL, 1903.

Comrnissione1·s JYresent:

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Mauger,

Mr. M.r. vVa tson.

Mr. WATSON was called to tl1e Chair, p1·o tern.

Harper, Chief Traffic Manager of the New South \Vales R ailways, sworn and examined

161 3. By M1·. Watson .- The Commission are inquiring into the of granting ?onuses

in aid of the establishment of the iron industry in the Commonwealth, and m c1dentally a questiOn arisen as to the rates of freight charged upon iron turned out from the Lithgow Ironworks, a nd the statement that special concessions have been in some cases made t'o Mr. Sandford. Can you giVe us any information on the subj ect '1--0n manufactured iron t he rate for 2-tm: lots forwarded fr·o.m

to Sydney for use within the State is lOs. 6d. per ton. That represents 111 round figures a reductiOn about 70 per cent. upon the ordinary rates. If the iron is intended for export, a rate of 8s. per ton I S charged. The corresponding rate for iron sent for a similar distance from ?ther would be 34s. lOd. per ton, if in 5-ton lots, or 43s. per ton if in smaller quantities. The distance Lithgow from Sydney is 96 miles. I may men tion, in co nnex ion with this matter, t hat recently a spec1al rate was .quoted to Mr. Sandford, who was obtainin()' a number of old railfi from other States, and who found t h,tt he had

not much margin of profit. commissioners quoted him a rftte of l d. per ton mile, Ol ' about 6s.

per ton for the carriage of these old rail s to E skbank. There howeYer, a attached t_o that

concession, viz., that Mr. Sandford should give u >l t he iron se nt from Eskban k to Sydne1, now subJect to a minimum of 2-ton lots, in full t ruck-loads of G tons. Up to the tune :'llr. i::landfo rd has not

taken advantage of the special rate, but is stil l pay ing os. per ton upon ratl s mtend ed for t reatment at Lithgow, a nd the minimum of 2 tons still ex ists.

F. l050l. G

Jolm Harpe•·, 9th April, 1903. 82

1614. Are there any fu r ther concessions given to Mr. Sandford as against those who forward imported iron over· t he railways ?--No. 1615. Is the concession of n t'

N "w SouTH \ VALES GovERNMENT RA ILWAYS.

J?1·eight Rates ju1· lifamifactured hon.

\fhcn f1·om

Eskbank. \\'h eu fol'wa rded by other Consignors.

) files - ·

Jn Lots of 2 tons and J n Truck Loads of 5 Smaller Quantities to O\·cr. ton :-:. Sma.IJs Minimum.

Per ton. Pe1· ton. Per ton.

s. d. s. d. s. d.

50 6 0 18 9 22 11

96 { 0*} 6t 34 10 43 0

100 10 10 36 3 44 9

150 15 0 52 0 64 5

200 18 8 66 0 81 11

250 21 5 76 6 95 1

300 24 2 87 0 108 2

350 26 11 97 6 121 4

400 29 8 108 0 134 5

450 32 5 11 8 6 147 7

500 35 2 129 0 ! 60 8

* To Sydney .for export, in 8-ton truck loads. t For home use.

161 6. H ow long have the commissioners been granting t his concession to Mr. Sandford ?--The E skba nk Iron Co. has been enjoying special concessions since 1880- before the R ail ways Commissioners took office. The conce sions were given by the Minister, and there have been sligh t variations since. 1617. R y li11·. J oseph Cook.-Do you remember t he Minister who first granted the concessions?­ I think it was the late H on.·John Sutherland.

161 8. By 1 111·. 1V atson.- That was before Mr. Sandford's Y es. The same policy has been continued since. I may mention that in 1896 a deputation from the ChambeP of Commerce approached the co mmissioners, and protested against t he special rates conceded to Mr. Sandford. The lat e Mr. Eddy, who was then Chairman of the Commissioners, spoke in very strong term. · in justification of the syst em adopted, on the ground of the out let which it afforded for the production of works which dealt with large quantities of iron required for railway purposes, and also for the reason that it assisted in the creation of an industri al cent re at some distance from Sydney, which in addition to making for the prosperity of t he community generally, also b rought increased t raffic to. t he railways in connexion with the carriage t o and fro of those occ upi ed in t he work and t he various ar ticles of consumption r equired by them. Mr. E ddy also defended the co nt inuation of the system on t he ground t hat the industry had grown up under it.

1619. So t hat as a, matter of broad policy he thought it was wise t o con tinue the reduced - Y es. I men t ion this fact in order to indicate that the comm issioner. have det ermined to continue the present policy. 162 0. Mr. Sandford impor ts, or has been importing r ecently, pig and other iron such as bla ck sheet s. Does he get any special concession upon Tha n iron is charged a t t he rate of 8s. per ton

from Sydney. 16 21. How does that rate compare wit h the rates charged to other custom ers of the Black iron sent by any one else for direct use in the country wo uld be charged at the rate of 34s. 1 Od. per t on, in 5 ton lots, or 43s. per ton, if in smaller qua nt ities. In Mr. Sandford's case t he condition is a t tached t hat t he iron shall be treated at his works at Lithgow.

16 22. That Ss . rate would be 1d. per mile?-Yes. 1623. And that is t he cheapest rate at which Mr. Sand fo rd can get his iron bwugh t from Lithgow t o excep t under t he condition I have mentioned, that he gives us full t m ck

loads on the journey to Sydney,. in' which case t he rate would be reduced to 6s. That was the quotation made contingent upon the 2-ton minimum being abandoned and a full t ruck load adopted. 16 24 . Supposi ng Mr. Sandford were producing iron at Lithgow from native ores, wha t would he have t o pay for sending t he prod uct to Sydney, under p resen t co ndit ions it were intended for home use, the rate would be 1 Os. 6d ., and if for expor t, 8s.

1625. You c:t JTY some classes of goods at it lo wer Yes, crude ores. Crude ores coming from Carcoar or Caclia wo uld pay id. per ton per mile. 1626. A ssuming that M r. Sandford we re able to guarantee t he commissioners, not t ru ck loads, bu t t rain loads, would they be able to make any greater co ncession than t he rate of 8s. per ton 1-I may say t hat a request was preferred some little t ime ago, by Mr. Sandfo rd, that iron shoul d be carried at the same rate as coal intended fo r export, viz., 4s. per ton, but t he commissioners declined to entertain

t he idea. 1627. B ut thitt coal wo uld be in t rain loads t here would be no difference, so fa r· as that is co nce rn ed.

83

1509

John H n. rper, 9th Apt•il, 100:1.

1 \\'hat was the idea of t he Co mmi ;;;;ionen ; in according ll1 0J'e liberal t retttmen t to coal than to. iron to the distance_ of t ho t;Oal mines from th e onl y chance they h; we of competing

w1th the mtues on t he seaboard ts g1vc n by the low m te of f rc1ght. Thnt, ho wever, t;

1G29 . That iH a mat ter of opinion. So me people sa.)' t hat t here i;; a g rmter ch> tn t;e of suct;essful iron production on t he coa;;t th;t n a t Li Lhgo w, beca use of the freigh t, which has to be added to the cost of production ?- I do not know about t hat; but wh;tt I ha ve stated is the policy of the Commis ioncrs. 1 G:3 0. JJy Jh. Watkins.- D oe;; t he principle you have described apply to the whole of the co <1l

di stricts?- Yes, concel:;s ion s have been given in every t;ase where co<1l mines are so distant from the port of sh1pm eut as to pl 11ce them virt uall y out of competit ion wi th t he mines nearer t he seabom·d . F or in st<1 ncc, t he Greta peo ple have a, co ncession which enables them to compete wi th the rnines at ewcastlc, and t he Met ropolitan Co mpa ny, at H elensburgl1 , enjoy a simila r privilege. Th,tt is the

general poli cy that prevails wi th a view to gi vin g t hem a reasonable oppor t unity of reaching the port of shipment upon a good footing wit h their co mpetitors. l G3 I. Coul rl you say t hat the rates now charged for coaJ a re paying mtes ?-Speakiug ou broad principl<'s, I :;houlcl say t hey were. The broad principle in vol ved iu this uasc is t he mainteJJ ance o£ an

importan t indus try in t he 'vV estc1·n district. Thi;; industry has an important bearing upon our operat ions, because we :! . Of uo urse n rate of .J.s. 3d .

I er ton in itself does not pay over the heavy grades of the mount

t he gmdes t ha t exist on the moun tains- you can on ly reduce them to a ce rtain exten t by lengthening t he di stance over which you have to t ravel in order t o reach a certa.in alt it ude. 1634. I n t he event of the Zig<:ag being taken out,· and another route adopted, would the Commissioners be able t o give a reduced ra te 7-The suggested alterations will not cn a.ble us to in crease

thf' t rain loads very much, hut th ey will enable us to ·conduct t he heavier t raffic with great er facility. Hecen tly the traffi c on the W estern line has b een so congested that it has been almos t impossible t o carry it on without resor t ing to Sunday go· ·ds traffic. 1635. H ave you a doubl e line most of the way 7-N o, on ly as far as JH I:J unt Victoria. Then we

have a break, and t hen the whole of the work of t he line is controll ed by t he single pai r of ra ils between Emu and Woodford. That section represents the h eaviest gmde on t he line. 1 G36. So that you see no prospect of any large reduction in t he cost of conveying iron from Lithgow to Sydney ?:-N o ; I am authori zed by the Commissioners to say t hat t hey do not sec any prospect of making a reduction ctt ]Jrescnt . Of course, circu mstances migh t arise which would lead them

to reduce the presen t rates, but for the t ime being they a re not prepared to do anything more t han t hey have done. 1637. By Jllfr . F1.dle1·.- You say that the mte of 4s. 3d. per ton upon coal docs not pay ?- No. From the last Report of the R ailway CommissionerR, at page 8, you will see that we carried during :he

year ended 30th J"une, 1902, 6, l G3 , 977 tons, a nd t hat t he aYe rage earnings per ton per mile was 1·0 1 d., on which we were a little sh 01· t of payin g inter es t and working expen i'ies . Y ou wi ll obse t·ve, in connexion with that retum that 3,520 02 7 tons of coal, co ke and sh <1lc were carried at an average .of ·5 Jcl . per mile and i t rroes sayin o· that if t he whole of t he traflic h a d been carried at tha.t rate, whi ch i;;

, "' "' pmctically equivalent to 4s. 3d . per ton from Lithgow to Sydney, we shoul rl ha\·e brf'n on .wrong side of the ledger. In other words, we require to earn on th e aYe rage at least 1·07 d . per m o1·der to

k ee p us straight, and if we earn only half of t.hat a moun t we shall fall very short of requu·ements. 1638. Where does the co ke and coal co me from principally 1-\Ve carry it pretty well all ove r t he rail way system. A brge quantity co mes from the N ewcastle also from .th? mines,

and from the vVestern coal deposits. Y ou will find all the particula r·s the CommiSSlOI:crs Heport: 1639. Does that 4s . 3d. ra te apply to all lines ?-A pr oporhonate rate apphes to all hnes including t he South Coast line. 1 G40. DoeR it apply equally to all min es i n the Newcastle <.listrict ?-The co nditions there arc scarcely similar to those wh ich p revail on t he so uth coast tt ml at tho mmes, but where the

distances are at all similar the rates a1·c leYied upon th e ;;ame basi;;. 1 G4l. So that all the coal-mines of the coun try a re placed upon <1n equ al footi ng so far as rates are co ncerned ?-Y es. 1G42. I under:stood you to state t hat Rpecial concessions wcr given to the Lithgow collieri es to

enable them compete with t he mine. more favoumbly situated?-Y cs. You must. th.at the

rate is a dimini shing one; for 10 miles t he wo uld be 10cl ., but tlw dummshes as t.hc d1stance

is increased. That is the only means wh ich is presented to us of promotmg t he de,-elopment of our t crritor.y,

1643. Assuming that iron works we1·e f'stablish ed nt Parm matta, or some other smtabl c s1te nld&r the coast the iron works at L itb"OW would be placed at a disadYantagc to t he extent of the 8s. pe r ton char"ed for freicrht upon the co n of their iron to Sydney. \ Vould t he Commissioners be preparf'ci to reduce rates t o en able the Lithgow works to co mpete the peopl f' on. t he coast ?-It ma.y be htken for ("l t·anted that we should not lose traffic if we co uld hel p 1t. IVe recogmse t hat the profi t 1s not made t he carriage of a particular commodity, so much ns upon the t raitic incidental to its prod uction.

vVe do not like to lose t mffic. ,

1G 44. So that th e Commissioners would be prepared for the sake of the teaflic to make a red uction ?

- V ery probabl y. 1G45. By Jrh . the rates you haYc quoted as applying to t he products from t he

Li thrro w iron wo rks a differen tiation is shown between the pricf':; charg·cd fm the CMringc of t lw Lithgow tt nd iron produced in a ny ot her Stat<• ?- -Y<·s, that is as it <'x ists to-day.

G 2

._,

John H arper, 9th April , 1903. 84

1646. Do you think t hat the Inter-State Commission is likely to alter t hat condition of afl:airs ?­ I do not know. 1647. I t hought you might have considered t he possibility of the Inter-S ta te Commissioners int erfering wit h your rates ?-vVe have been s-t udying t hat aspect of the question, and so far as our rates generally are concerned we have been pl'ltting our house in order, but I do not k now t hat this

particular rat e has received a ny special consideration . 1648. Y ou think t hat so far as your geneml rates are co ncerned t he Inter-State Commission wo uld not be able to take an y exception to t hem ?- No. F or t he last t wo years we have been aJjusting our rates, and we now regard our posit ion as almost impregnable. The rates in R iverina, for imtance, are co mmon all over our system, and are availa ble for t he p roduce of every State. ""\Ve gave away £20,000 of revenue in order to bring about t his change.

1649. W ould you say t hat t his par ticul ar rate occ upies the same position as your B.iverina rates 7-No, it migh t be open t o challenge. 1650. By .iY.fr. Watkin s.- vVhen you say t hat you have practically a universal zone system for coal t raffic over t he whole of New South W ales, are t he condit ions absolutely alike in all the dist ricts?­ N o, because t he distances from t he colleries to the pl aces of shipmen t vary.

165 1. A re t he other condit ions similar. F or instance, you carry coal from Lithgow to Sydney in your own t rucks at 4s. 3d. per ton, and yo u also carry the coal from H elensbu,·gh in your ow n rolling stock ?- Y es. 1652. I s t he rat e proportionately the same in the N ewcast le district when you use your ow n trucks?- Y es. The rate per mile is not the same, but tapering propor tionately the rates are charged upon t he same basis.

1653. A re not t he N ewcastle people paying a higher rate and at t he same t ime providing their own trucks ?-No, not over t he same mileage. 1654. I understand, of course, t hat the rate for 10 miles ls higher proportionately than t hat for 50 miles, but what I mean is t hat the N ewcast le people have to fin d t heir own waggons, and to supply a certain number -of waggons every t ime an ·engine is req uired, and that they still have to pay a rate which is practically t he same as that paid on t he a nd W estern lines, after making an allowance for

t he mileage ?- Y es, but it rnust be understood that we maka.an allowance for t he waggons, and t hat if we owned the waggons we should increase our profHs very considerably. The allowance which is made to t he companies wo uld yielJ us a handsome profit, because it would increase our r eceipts by £40,000 per annum, less t he cost of repairs.

1655. ""\Voul d you mind giving t he Commission whole of t he fi gure& in co nn exion with t he zone system ?- For distances up t o 30 miles, the rate for coal carried in the Commissioners' trucks is 1s. lld., whereas coal is carried for 34 miles in t he companies' trucks in the N ewcastle district at 1s. 6d. per ton. In addit ion to that, concessions are given, varying according to t he quantity of coal sent out from the variou s collieries.

165 6. D oes that apply to t he whole trade ?- It applies t o the more distant stations. 165 7. I s t he mileage calculated so as to include the dist ance which the trucks have t o t ravel ovet· the companies' lines 1- W e only charge mileage according t o the distance over whi ch we haul the truck s.

16 58. Some of t he collieries have as much as from l 0 to 20 miles of line of their own over which you do t he haulage ?-I may point out that we do not want to go on the private lines at all. 'l'he companies can run their own engines on t heir lines, and some of them do so. In such cases we only charge f or the haulage from the junction of the privat e with the Governmen t line.-

165 9. B y M1·. J osep h Cook.-Is not some special concession made to consignors other tha n Mr. Sandford in connexion with t he carriage of goods for long dist ances. A s an example, suppose an importer wished t o send iron to Bourke, would he not have some special concession ext end ed t o him ?­ N o. If he sent a 5-ton lot he would be quo ted a lower rat e t han if he wished to forward a smaller -

1660. vVe are t old t hat special rates are quoted which bring t he freight down t o 40s. per ton from Sydney to Bourke 1-'l'ha t is not -so. 16 61. Mr. Sandford said t hat whilst he would be required to pay 38s. 6d. from Lithgow, iron could be sent from Sydney t o Bourke for 40s. per t on ?-That is not correct. Mr. Sandford would pay 30s. per ton, whilst t he other rat e would be £4 lOs. per ton.

1662. Then t here is no such t hing as a 40s. rate from Sydney to Bourke ?-N o, nor is t here any such rate as 38s. 6d. per t on from Lithgow to Sydney.- [ S ee note]-[ NOTE.)

N ew So ut h vVales Government Railways, Chief T raffi c Manager's Office, Sydney, 9th April, 1903.

D EAR SIR, -In connexion with my e vidence this morn in g , Mr. Cook asked a quest ion i11 regard to t he rate for iron to Bourke, Mr. Sandfo rd havin g stat ed it was carried a t 40s . per ton , to whi ch I replied t hat we had no such rate. Practically such a ra te does n ot exist , alt hough some y ears ago, in order to secure a shi p ment of fe ncing wi re hoop iron, a rate was q uoted of 40s. per ton if forwarded as a 200-ton lot. This had t he effe ct of securm g one sh1pment

only some yea rs ago, but it h as no t been in pmctical operation since. P erhaps t hi s is t he rate t o which Mr. Sandford r eferred, b ut ou r experience is, as already stated , t ha t it is of no pract ical value as a m te on iron, or indeed on t he specifi ed commodi t ies fencing wire and hoop iron, a nd I , t herefore, d id not regard it as bearing upon t he ma tter under consiclerati01i .

Yom·s faith fu lly,

J N O. HARPER, Chi ef T raffic Ma nag er

The Acting Chairman, Bonus Commission, Sydney

85

(Taken at Brisbane .) FRIDAY, l sT :M:AY, 1903.

Commissioners ]J?'esen t : The Right Ron. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman ; Mr. L. E. Groom, I :M:r. vVatkins.

B enjamin Dunstan, sworn and examined .

1663. By the Chai1·man.- You are Acting Government Geologist of Queensland ?---:-Y es.

1511

1664. H ow long have you been in the employ of the Queensland Government ?-In t he employ of the Queensland Government for six years. 1665. Ha-ve you form ed any opinion as to the possibility of t he successful establishment of manu­ factures of iron and steel from A ustmlian ores 1·-I have formed opinions with regard to the extent of

the iron occu rring in Queensland in connexion with limestone, coal, and other minerals for· that purpose. 1666. F rom t his point of view, are. you of opinion that t he iron industry co uld be successfully e tAb lished 1-Everything points to that in Queensland, from the di.ff'erent deposits that we are able to show existing in it.

166 7. Are you satisfi ed as to the extent and quality of the ores 7- Yes. 1668. The availability of fluxes ?-Y es. 16 69. About fu el '!--A fir t -class fuel. 1670. H ave you any doubt in your mind as to the of the Huccessful establishment of

the manufacture of irun from Australian ores ?-From a commercial point of view, I co uld not express an opinion, but from a sc ientific point of view it seems to be everything th

16 71. D ealing fir t with t he deposits of iron ore, cau yo u mention t he chief to your know ledge 7-Wit h regard to the iron deposits, there is a diagram p repared by me. [Appendix C.] vVe have

deposits other than those shown on the diagram, but not convenient to the sea-board; we have not prepared a diagram of those. •

1672. This diagmm gives particul an; of the minerals, localit ies, disbtnces, quantities, and qualities and remar·ks 1673. Can you speak as to that bein g accurate?-Y es; all t hese items haYe been checked < Lnd re-checked in my office.

1674. They have been most carefully checked 7-By more than one officer of the Departmen t. 1675. And you are satisfiell as to their accuracy?-Yes . 167 6. From your personal knowledge, can you speak as to Mount Leviathan ?-I may say there are a great number of deposits in Queensland. There are eleven altogether sh own in t he plan and table. There are four in addition to those shown in the table. These four are specially referred to as being enormou · deposits_:_ Mount Leviathan, K angaroo Hills, Wild River, and Mount Lucy. 1677. Give me particular as regards Leviathan 1·-Mount L eviathan is at Cloncurry, . 210 miles from Winton, w11ere coal occurs, 250 miles from Normanton, < Lnd 55 0 miles so uth·west of Townsville. 1678. vVh at is the nearest port '1-----N ormanton, 250 miles.

1679. Any railway communication ?-To Croydon; b ut t hat item is of no account, because possibly a railway would be tak en from Cloncurry direct to Normanton. The co un t ry presen ts no difficulty for railway construction. In the same locality limestone occurs in abundant:e, and there are also numerous deposits of copper at Cloncurry.

16t:l0. Have you estimated t he amount and quality ?-The quantity is st-ated by 1\ir. in Geological Survey Bulletin No. 10, page 10. H e states-" :M:oun t Leviathan is a hill, 200 feet h1gh and 400 yards in· diameter ''-[report put in]. H e estimates the quantity of ore- and I have bee n able to have that checked by an office r of the Department, who also inspected that locality-at 10,500,000 tons of hematite, without going below the base of the mountain. .

168L have no analyses further than what Mr. J ack h ad made, and from wh:ch

he states "it is of the purest possible ironstone." A similar hill, M ount Pisa, has one-tenth the of Mount Leviathan, and t h;Lt would practically be 1,000,000 t ons. They are separated two miles apart, and there is a possible connexion of these two by other subsidiary deposits that outcrop between them. This has only been based on plans and surveys of the country.

1682. By M1 ·. L. E. Groo m. - By surveys and investigation s only; you have no t sunk any shafts? -Yes. 1683. To the Chairman.-There is so me report by :Mr. Cameron ?-It is a from the same report by Mr. J ack-a partial quotation, not a complete quotation. I may say, with regard to the analysis by :M:r. Cameron, that was taken from a block sample brought. down .cl?ncurry, so that

cannot be taken as a sample of the ore; it is not an average. J\Ir. J ack iS very cxph01t 111 "the purest possible ironstone," and I have seen letters to people by Mr. Jack m wluch. he

reiterates that statement. So we have in these. t wo mountams l1,o00,000 tons of the purest possible hematite. 1684. Do you know how many assays have been taken 1--:- \ Ve have only. this. one as:my from big block . It was brought down from Cloncu rry. vVe had no idea of ever usmg it for iron smeltmg thtl analysis was made. , . .

:J85. Wild Rived-This is an opinion also from Mr. Jack: report: "E1ghty miles south-west of Cairns- to 1\'Iareeba by railway 46 miles, a nd thence to Herberton about 60 miles." vVith regard to t he quantity and quality, 1\'[1 ·. J ack rcpr:•:ted in 1H98 t hat there a " huge T oad of pure magnetic iron oxide.'

.•

Benjami.n Dunstan , lst ill tty, Hl03. 86

. 16 i:> G. ,\[ount 7- This iH 80 miles south-wel:i t of Caims by mil way on the Ch illagoe line.

Th1 s alKo h

1688. Can you give us any information regarding limestone deposit:; limestone deposits of which I can speak are M:ortar Island, Marble I sland, Mackenzie Ri:ver, Mount Etna, Cloncuny, rtnd Fit;-;roy River. 1689. Mortar I sl

to ship stone. The position is 50 miles north-east of St. Lawrence, 150 miles north from Keppel Bay, and 100 miles so uth from Mackay. 1690. What is the quantity is inexhMstible. There are a number of islands.

It would be ha rdly possible century after century to exhaust the supply, which is of the very purest limestone. 1691. Marketable?- Yes, markebtble. Practical working tests, so I am informed by M t·. Campbell , sh ow 98 per cent. of carbonate of li me. From spec im ens I have seen from one of the other islands, I Bay it is practically a pure saccaroidal marble. Clay and silica are absent, so .Mr. Campbell informed me. These a re practical working tes ts.

1692. Large quantities, thousands of tons ?-Millions and millions. 1693. Made any use of ?--Thousands of tons have been taken away from there for lime making and brought to Brisbane. 1694. Do you know rtt what price it could be

· estimate t.hat limeston e could be placeu on board at the constructed.

put on the vesRels?-Mr. Campbell gives an islands for about 2s . a ton if a jetty were

1695. What about Mackenzie River limestone you have no notes about t hese ?-These deposits occ ur l'ight close to the junction of the I saaes ttnd Mackenzie Rivers, and are within GO mile:; of St. Lawrence. 1696. Is it mentioned in the phm ?·-It is not ment.ioned in the plan. Suppose a railway were to be conBtructed from the Mackenzie River coal be(ls to Broadsound, it would pass over this belt of limestone in a so uth-east'direction. · As to the quality, it is siliceous, but the deposits were not ex plored at the time, and probably places could be found where the limestone is free from silica, as here the silic't only occurs wh ere the limeston e is fossiliferous.

1697. Mount Etna ?-We have no analysis; the deposits are practically inexhaustible. They have b.oen using the stone for a great number of yea rs for lime making, which is a pretty good indication t hat there is no silica present. 1698. By j )fro . L. E. G1·oom. - Did you mention the nature of the deposits of the Macken zie River is a belt running north-west and south-east, and is, I suppose, about 30 miles from the

Mackenzie outcrop of coal, and at the base of the coal measures. 1699. By the Chairman.-Tell us about the Fitzroy River as regards limestone ?-This is a deposit about 2u0 yards from the brtnk of the Fitzroy, and about 4 mil es north of Rockhampton. The analysis of that shows about 97 per cent. of car bonate of lime. 'l'he analysis is not complete; we are not able to state the percentage of magnesia, although we know it is present.

1700. Cloncurry limes tone am leaving t hat to Mr. Ball.

1701.. You have told us the chief limestone deposits with which you are acquainted, leaving the others to Mr. Ball ?-Yes. ·

1702. How about co:tl ; wh ere a.re the chief deposits 1-'l'he. Styx River, Mackenzie and Daw­ son Rivers, Callide Creek, the ButTunJ, and Ipswich. These are on the eastern coast; there are also deposits north and inland that have not been explored. 1703. Are there any recent discoveries of coal brought under yo ur notice ?---Y es, we have what are stated to be anthracite deposits orcurring on the Dawson ancl:M:acken11ie Hivers.

1704. Are yo u in a posit ion to speak with authorit.y about these?- Y es, t he recent tests t hat have been made of the Dawson coal i r, dicate that the coal is anthracite in quality and non-coking. The most recent tests that we have made of the coal th>tt has been submitted to us by the company working at the Mackenzie Hiver indicate that the whole of the 20 feet of coal is not an anthracite, but a. coking coal, and of a magnificent quality for smelting purposes .

1705. What is the best coal for iron smelting ?- The best coa.l is no doubt a coking coa.l, and the rich es t is anthracite. Practically, t hey find that the coal should be made into a coke for smelting purposes. 1706. And so your non-co king coal not availn.ble ?- The non-coking coal is available, aR the experience of American people goes to show that immense quantities of iron are produced by furnaces usipg anthracite coal. Captain Richard will be abl e to deal, with this question more full.v.

1707. As regards your coal deposits, you have mentioned some of them; what information can yo u supply as to the Styx ?- The area is 150 squa re miles. 1708. Then there is a repor t, No. 84 ?-This is contained in a report by Mr. Rands, No. 84, on the Styx River coal deposits. .

1709. There is som ething about a small seam 15 inches thick ?- That is included in the 6 feet referred to in the table. There is 11 per cen t. of ash in t he 7-ft. seam, which ma.kes a firm coke, and in the 15-in. seam there is 3·8 per cent. of ash, largely non-coking. 1710. This is good steaming coal, as shown by train tests ?-It is stated on page 10 of Mr. Hands's report to show good res ults, a nd that i t is a. good steaming coal with li ttle ash . . .

1711. The ' Vinton bore?- I can only quote from information we have available. The pmntwn of t hi s is 130 miles sou th-wc;;t from Hughcnd en, and from Cloncun'.Y 310 mi les south-l•ast, 360 miles south-west of Townsvill e.

151 3

87 Benjamin Dunstan, 100a.

1712. Quantity seams reported, but nothinrr indicated a seam more than 2 feet in

t hickness-several less than this found in the bore. "'

1713. Quality7-The quality shows that t he coal contains 50 per cent. fixed carbon, 46 per cent. vo l. hyd. carbon, and 5 per cent. a ·h . It does not form a coherent coke. 1714.' Speaking generally, would you call this good coal for s melting purposes 7-I cou ld not say, as th e spectmen we have tested has been long exposed, and althourrh it is indicated as non-cokinO' coal

wh ere it is lyin g exposed, a fresher Sl1mple might make a o-ood coke."' 0

1715. Can I take it that your knowledge of th e is from tho result .' of boring 7-That is so, itLtd t he a re very small.

171 G. At what depth did they first strike coal 7-I cannot a ivo you t hat information · I can obtain it if necessary. "' '

. 1717. Tell us about t he Mackenzie River coal 7-1'he position is 1)0 miles from St. Lawrence ( Broadsound), and 40 miles on to that wou ld be the total distance from tho Mackenzie River coal to Ma rble I sland, where possibly it co uld be used for smelting. 17 18. There is a place call ed Iron I sland 7-Y es, that adjoinina Marble I sland. Seventy

miles is the d!l'ect distance to the coast, and a railway co uld be co nstructed oYer de

17 20. The estima,ted quamity is 200,000,000 ton. of coal 7--Yes, t hat the estimate. If t here were only 10 squu,re miles of co untr·y-and I am of opinion that it is vastly greater t hu,n 10 square mil es -there is 200,000,000 tons of coking coal available. 1721. What is the depth of the seam width 20 feet. I have not been able to verify that, but I have seen 15 feet of it. 172:?. I s it being worked at present ?--Yes. 17 23. F or what purpm;e 7-A prospecting company has the lease, and tl.ey arc t rying to trace tho outcrop towards the Cent ral Railway, and I have no doubt that it will go towa,t·d s the Ce ntml Railway. 17 2-! . The quality is as shown iii the Y es, it is shown in t he taLl e. It shows a very high percentage of coke. I suppose t he Ipsw ich and other so uthern coal never goes me: e t han 60 per cent. of co ke from the coal used, but this runs up to 80 per cent. From t he 20-ft. it sh ows 11 per cent. of ash. The coke produced from the 3-ft. seam will give 7 ·7 of ash , and the coal produces 84 per cent. of coke-a most remarkable result. 17 25. Speaking generally, it is of excellent and magnificent quantity? -Yes, I should say it is of a magnificent quality, and hu,rd ly any better could be desired. And the qtmntity, as I say, is inexlmust­ible, if coal can be said to be inexhaustible. I formed 9-n opinion in a r eport written by myself and published some time ago that there is about 5,000 miles of this country. But t hese I am giving you are absolute outcrops t hat have been known. 1726. I think you referred to t he presence of other minerals7-The Dawson. The information in regard to this is laid down pretty fairly on the diagram. The position of this has been described in a report by me, dated 1901, on the Dawson and Mackenzie Rivers. A remarkable featureabout this is the very low percentage of ash, which is 4·8 per cent., and the· seam outc1·op a mile long, indicated to b e 9ft. 6in. in thickness. 17 27. By J.lh. L. E. G1 ·oom.-Can yo u the quantity 7-N o, I have only stated. the out­crop as one mile long. 1728. By the Chai?'?nan. - Callide Creek 7-The information on the phm also indicates this-it is practicttlly inexhaustible in quantity. Fifty-three miles direct from Glaclstone-500,000,000 tons of coal. 1729. By JJ!b- . Watkins.-I s that estimate arrived at from practical observation ?-This estimate is formed by an offi cer of our Depart ment who visited t-he property some years ago, and a number of the wo rkings and shafts. The position of the coal rnakes it Yery easy to estimate, for 1t runs so very regular. Wherever shafts have bee n sunk they have co me on coal where they have estimated it to exist. -17 30. B y the· Chairman.- ·what is t he greatest depth they have struck coal at ?.:_Sixty feet. 17 31. By jJfb·. L. E . Gr·oom. - What i s the thickness of the Calli de RiYe r coal ?-The average thickness of coal passed through in the various sh afts is over :n fe:-t. . . . 17 :32. By the Chairman.- No sign of it giving out 1-No stgn of 1t gtvlng out. . 1733. I see yo u refer to other minerals-wolfram

_ ,

Benjamin Dunstan 1 1st !.by, 1903. 88

is a very hard coal, and if the ash constit uents were red uced by water the coal at Ipswich would be able to prod uce a coke suitable for the manufacture of iron. 17 41. I suppose Queensland largely imports coal fwm the other States '1-She imports coal from N ewcastle, I think. ·

17 42. H as anything been attempted in the way of iron manufacture '!-Nothing in Queensland. E xperiments have been made with the ironstone, and these practical experiments have been very successful in producing the iron, and the iron has been worked up in t he shops, but only as an experiment.

17 43 . Then there is no iron industry in Queensland at present 7-N o. 17 44. H as there been any atteml?t on a la rge scale 1-N o, no attempt on a la t·ge cale. Generally I should consider that, taking P ort Alma as a centre, within a radius of 145 miles you have all t he ingredients and all t he materials necessat·y for the production of both iron and steel, with t he exception of molybdenite a nd wolfram, which occur in North Queensland.

17 45 . From t he geological point of view you see no reason why t he iron industry should not be succoosfully established in Queensland 7-I see no reason whatever from our point of view. 17 46. By Mr. Watkins.- 0£ co urse, yo ur experience is only derived from analyses and samples taken 7-Yes.

1747. And I suppose most of those sampl es have been taken from the outcrops h om the sudace of the ironstone 7-Yes, mostly from the sur-face or from t he great number of exposed places on the surface.

17 48. The Iron Mountain dome shape, it is a pure mass of iron 7-W e took samples from the places round that island. Mr. Ball will be able to show you a photograph. 17 49 . I notice in the Mount L eviathan which M r. J ack states is t he purest possible ironstone there is 9 per cent. of silica present, which he states is derived from quartz vein, wo uld not 9 per cent. ,

be a great det riment ?-You areasking me a metallurgical pmblem. 17 50. The presence of this is a detriment 7-I should suppose it is, but I co uld not really answer it. 1751. Now, with regard to coals; you have taken your results simply from tests in most of these cases 7-Sometimes in small lots, and so metimes in 50 tons.

17 52. I suppose it wou ld go without saying that any coal which prod uces a friable coke would be strong enough even though it yields a small per centage of ash 7-A small percentage of ash does not infer a friable coke. 17 53. It wo uld not prod uce satisfactory coke if it was not strong enough, even though it had a small percentage of ash ?-I do not understand t he question.

17 54. In most cases they convert it into coke before they use it for iron ?-Yes, in most cases. 17 55 . If t he coal will not produce a strong coke then it is no t suitable for iron smelting '!-That is the position exactly ; it must be a strong coke, and the Jpswich coal particularly makes a very strong coke. 1756. Is t here anything at all present in the coke or coal got at Ipswich which would militate against it being used in the production of iron 7-The high percentage of ash if used from coal. with­ out washing ; and I believe the character of the ash in the Ipswich coal would be rather susceptible to washing; that is, that it would be a coal that would clean by washing, and s_ ome coals won't. Some coals will wash well; in washing t he ash is i·educed, but it is slightly dependent on the character of the ash in the coal. 17 57. It has never been tested in any way to be used as a fu el for iron smelting 1-I could not say. Possibly 1\fr. H argreaves will be able to give the information. 17 58. B y L. E. G1·oom.- H as there been any complete · survey made of the various iron deposits through Queensland 1-No ; but we have an officer engaged, and he has been engaged for some mouths, preparing a report on the different iron deposits occurring throughout Queensland. As the work progresses we find that the deposits are so t-hat it is taking that officer much longer to work out t he geology of these deposits than we at first anticipated.

1759. You are of opinion t hat they will be found to be very numet·ous from the geology of .t he country 1-Those enumerated have only been deteded by their proximity to the centres of populatiOn, and t here are such large areas unexplored that it would be hardly possible to go into some OJ th?se places without fresh discoveries being made. About fiv e years ago t here was no reference to coal bemg

found at the Mackenzie or Dawson. 1760. There is a good sample of coal at Pittsburg, 137 miles i'rom Brisbane ; has ever

been surveyed 1-No; it has not been surveyed, b ut Mr. Ball will be able to give yo u further mforma­ tion regarding this. 1 7 61. Are shafts being sunk on any of t he deposits to indicate their depth at all 1-0f those enumerated, no.

176 2. And t he estimates you give are purely from survey measures ?-Purely from survey measures, but we have been very careful not to estimate anything that is no t actually in sight. . . 1763. So that what you have given is actually the minimum ?- The minimum-the "mtmmum cut down, " perhaps.

J oseph H argreaves, sworn and examined.

17 64. By the Clwirman.-W hat are you by os;cupation ?-Mining surveyor, re.sidin? Ipswiclt. 17 65 . I understand your knowledge of the coal is chiefly confi ned to the Ipsw teh dtstn ct ?-! es . 1766. Can yo u tell us t he extent of the bore alto

1767. There are cet·tain seams at t he I pswich mines which a re speciall y suited for coking purposes 1-I believe the coke wo uld compare faY orably with the best coke in the world.

1515

89 Joseph I-Ja rg reares, May, 1003.

1768. A s regards the coal at Ips wich, have you fully developed the mines in any way 1-By no way ; we are simply on the fringe; they are <>nly developinct t he outcrops. vVe have not touched deep mining at all yet. 0

.

17 69. 'Nhat is your opinion of the Ipswich district; how many mines are working at pr·ese nt ? --Large and small there are 32 mines workin"' at. present. 1770. Wha t is the number of seams already discovered ?-Altogether, co unting the seams that have been worked, there a1·e ultogether 21 seums. ·

1771. What is the total output of the coal-fi eld ?- For 1902 the coal-field produced 360,000 odd tons. 177 2. What do you think yo u arc producing at t he present t ime?-'I'Ve can produce three times t hat amount.

1773. A s r egards the quality of the coal for coking ·purposes, ha ve yon mrtde any anaJyses or any tests ?-I huve h'ere two expert opinions given some years ltgo, and the co ke is none the worse now than it was then. The first opinion is from Mc .. srs. Smith, Forrester, and Co., enginee rs a nd brass founders, of Brisbane wh o state-

wre htwe you r m:tk e of coke io t h e. e w for above ·n ,·e n y ears, ::t nd c:tn testify w it h confidence to t he

excellent qu::tll ty mva n ably sent to us by you. We lmve oo h es itancy in pronouncin g it to be the be:t

Engli sh coke supplied for foun dry purposes. This coke was supplied from the E clipse Colliery at North Ipswi ch. The second opinion is from Professor P eppor, who experimented on the cok e, and who reports as follows :-I have a nalyzed t he Yery good sample of you r coke, which is extremely dense, ha rd , a nd s ilve ry in a ppeara nce,

and sm passes, wi t h special merit of its own, the best English coke. The besl E11gli sh coke on an a 1·erage,

at least 0 ·7 per cent. of sulphur, or about 12 ounces of sulphur in each 100 lb s. ; your co ke contai 11 s only 0·29 p er cent. of sulphur, or ubout 4 oz. of Hulphur in each 100 lbs. weight. The extr em e hardness a nd cl e 11 sity of your cok e i.g g reatly in its favour, on the. core of and steadiness of co mbustion with economy in ni'e .

Professor J ohn Puttiso n, F.I.C., of N ewcastle, England, reported :-That t be a na1ysis of t he Brisbane coke ind icated that it con'ti1ined a remarkable sma ll a mount of sulphur­ less than t h e best English coke it is t herefore well s uited for foundry purpo ses.

177 4. As regurds the di stance from a port, what is the distance nearest is Brisbane, about 12 miles, and the furthest from Brisbane of the present developed field taking the Ipswich district would be 35 miles. 177 5. Has a ny ot the Ipswich coal been used at g,)) for smelt ing purposes?- Y es ; it has been

used at Broken Hill. 1776. Cun you give us any information ?--I am uot able to g!ve you any information, but I know it has been used very extensively. The only difficulty is the cost of trall sport, as between this und the Welsh coal.

1777. If you can get the inform<1tion I should be gbd to have it ?-I will do so . It was found that the cost of shipment of coke from Ipswich to Port Pirie in South Australia cost more than the shipment from vVales to P ort Pirie. Sailers from \Vale-; brough t cargoes of cok e a nd took cargoes of produce back. Enterprise ought to remove this difficulty as regards Ipswich coke, but so far the owners

of our coal-field s (coking) have not had sufficient capital to put on their own boats. 1778. You know something of the requisites necessary for the manufacture of iron j you know t he Ipswich well ; do you kno\v any other con stituents required for the manufacture of iron ?-There is iron ore and clay, and I believe we have others. .

1779. A s regards clay, do you know anything about the deposits ?-I know there ure large deposits of limestone and silicate clay. 1780. As regards the Ipswich coal deposits, do they require mu ch capital for the development 1-N o ; the seams mostly are pretty close to the and easily got at and suitable for small capitalists.

1781. In your opinion the coke made from Ipswich coal is in every way suitable for smelting purposes 1-None better, I think. 17 82. By .Mr. Watkins.-Have you had any ex perience at all in smelting 1- No j my experience is simply as to coal mining in this colony. . .

1783. By the Chairman.- You said som ething about coke at Br.oken was that as

a test.1-No ; I think in fairly large quantities. They are not sendmg 1t now, the fre1ght knocks us out. The cgal from vVales they found they were able to get o.u t, muc;l ch eaper. .

1784. Since the duty of 4s. a ton was placed on 1t 1-v\ e have not done anythmg beyond attempting it ; nothing has been done since that. . .

1785. It was used then with success1-·- A s regards quahty 1t and equ:-tl to the best coal they could get, only a question of price. . .

17S6. You say you co uld put out a, good deal more coal now ; I S that stmply because you have not got the trade?-Yes. .

1787. How do you account for th e fact that you cannot .control your own ,Stute generally do. There was only 6 or 7 per cent . of coal last yeat: in;ported m to. Queensla nd . IS uccounted for by the fact of the differential rates allowed by the sh1ppw (Y com pames on coal com mg from :N ewca.;tle. 1788. By JJ£1·. Watkins.----Ha ve you uttempted to export coul l--- Yes, u cargo we ut to

Valparaiso. The difficulty is the loading, which has been .very largely unproved. , .

1789. It is all your own coal that is used on the rmlwuys ?-Yes, they wont take anytlung else even for the northern railways. .

1790. By the Chainnan.- Are you abl e to supply cheaper t han the tmported. coal ?-- Except as recrards the extreme northern parts of Queensland, where the preferential rates come HI. 0 1791. By JJ£1•• Watkins. - Can yo u give us a seein g t he ship-ow ners simply t reat ow- castle coal the same as they t reat any other ?-J\Ir. J as. Cnbb gave the reason, becau se the steamers specially contract to sell co<1l in the north which went up t here a1:1 ba ll ast. 1'!1 e steamers simply went up with the object of bringin g down produce to the other i::ltutes; the coal t hey sim ply sold for wh at they could get. ·

oseph H :.t l'g-reaves, Jst Mu.1·, l!lil'l. no

1792. By C'/wirmrm.- But yet they were able to sell t he extent of 7 per ce11t. of the

total consumption; fur·th er, facilities for shipping are better at Newcastle t ha n t hey are here. 1793. Three hundr·ed and was your production last year'/-Yes.

l79J. By .ilfr. Watkins.-What is the average pr·ice of coal ?-The co ntract price to t he Government is 7s. Gel . at the pit'8 moutb. lt averages from 6s. to 8s. 1795. Now for export? --· You can land it at Gs . Sci. at t he pit's mouth. 1796. 'Will you explain why you cannot rob Newcastle of her t rade '1--Bet;a use of her shippiug facilitie;o. vVe cannot loa,d it.

1797. ·what do you t hink would be the price-especi

at t he pit's mouth 1-I should not li ke to say. 1798. vVhat a rc t he miners gettiug now ?-7s. to 7s. 6d . on Government contracts. '1799. 'l'he miners I mean ?- Til e miners are getting a hewing rate of 2s. lOci . to 3s. 9cl., according to the s am.

1800. At which t hey would eam much more ?- They do not earn as much as t.hey should. 180 1. How many miners have you employed in the Ips wich district ?-I can only give a r ough guess, about 1,000. 1<:l02. /Jy the liJu ch du you thi11k the aver·age miner earns

Th e avcrag· e if he wo rks full t im e WOLl i cl be a.bout £2 10.>. a week. 180::!. What i> full t ime?-Eight hours-seven to fou r-eight hours in t he pit. lHO -t By JJ[,·. Watkim .- \Vlm t is the difference from 3s. lOci. to 2s. 9d., the difference in getting the cocLl1- Some h [Lve further wheeling to do. 'Che miners do t hei r own wheeling.

1805. By the Chainnan.-I uncl e ·st11 ncl you are interested as manager of a company 1-No, as a memb er of the of M ine

1806. How long have these mines bee n working ?-Some of them have bee n just opened out . 1807. Has th e output been on the in crease1-Not t he last year. 1808. You had 40'),0J01-We have had just about 400,000. l 09. What do you attribute t he falling off to 1-I think t he drought mostly, and the abolition of tho clutv on Inter-State coal.

l 810. By ilh. Wat/;;ins.-Did you h:we a duty on coal before?-Ye, 2s. a ton. 18 11. Do you lmow what t hey are selling Newcastle coal at at Cairns 1-I do no t. 1812. By the Chainnan.--Do you know what it is at the pit's mouth generally in Newcastle 1-­ I think it is different, according to the quality.

1813. The Governmen t pays a little more ?-Yes. Of course there a re different qualities which get a better price than otherfl. 1814. And you can supplyco

18!6. By the Chai1·man.-Is there any preference given on Queensland railways on local coal as regards freight?-I do not thin k so. There is no coal carried except our own. ' 18 17. You know of no preference 1-No. 1818. vVhat time are they working now?- Nearly half time. ,

I t:\ 19. So that they would not earn more t han £1 5s. 7-A great m

'William Benclley, sworn and examined.

1822. By JJh. Watkins.--What is your name?- William. Bendley. R esicling at ·?- Ipsw ich.

1824. You have lmowledge of the iron ore deposits iu I pswich 1-Yes, in the locality. 1825 . In connexion with t h

1833. \Vould you consider t he sample the bes t sample?-There are many hke tlus, but · thi.s is a fair average surface sample. 183 4. You ha ,·e had no experience in connexion with t he smelting of iron at all7- No. . 1835. HaYe you he;trd anything from t he mine-owners or mine t!1at t hey wou ld hke tc

see iron-wodu; established with a view to the grow th in the consump tiOn of therr coal '!- No; I have never heard anything to thnt effect . . . .

1836. You cou ld not .give your opinion, then, as to the probable mcrease rn the output of your coal?--No. 18-3 7. All you can tell the Commission is t he fact that you know that certain iron deposits are at Ips wich ?- Yes.

fll William Ilendley, l st "ray , W03.

151 7

1838. And to their for you can only to t he of

t he Government people?-Y es, t iMt a ll. _ 1839. By M1 ·. !-· E : G1·oom. - ;n. how place:; do "th_e ironstone occu r to your knowledge in Ip:sw teh 7-About t he JLm ctwn of t he Bnsbane Rtver, and runs m

18 ±0 . There ;;'re irou outcrops in several place:; about Ipswich ?- Y es.

\Villiam Fryar, sworn and examined.

18± 1. By J / 1·. JVatkin&. - \ >\T J,at you r occ up ation ?- Iuspcctor of 18±:! . How long have you helrl that po:ition ?-A little o1·er 21 18±3. And during that time I suppose yo u have visited mos t of t he mining of

lanu /- During the fh·st year I had the colony, but since t hat t im e I hrtYC nut had t he .vho le

co lony ; I now hold the so u t hem district where all t he coal mine.; arc situatf'd with t he exception of one une.

1844. Your experience i::; practically . conftn ed to coal miu cs ?- Yes. H)45. Fol lowing your coal experieJ. cc in Qu eEnsl and, arc you of opinio11 t hat it bears all t he c::;se nt ials for the production of iron ?-I think so.

1 ±6. 1 suppose you ha,ve co ke produced from it 7-Yes . lS-17. H ow does t hat coke compal'C in your op inion by comparison wi t h other 7--·I think t he coke made on t he north side of Ipswich is equal to ttny coke made in t he Routhern H emisphere, and co uld be greatly improved by the washing process.

18± ' . Have you seen that coke tested by practical test in t he way of fuel for Lhe productiou of iron 0 1· any othet· smelting ?--No, I have not actually seen it Leca uEe we hu 1·e no smelting going on. At ..-\Jdcrshot t here is s mel t i11 g, and they use coal and coke and wood.

1849. ·what is t he exten t, in your opinion, of the coal-fi eld s of Queensland ?-The in

ce utml are stated to be 40,000 squ9.re ·miles in extent. 'l'hc So uthem have about

12,000 miles, and coa l has Le en worked, not all over but betwee n the 1850. Are t hey pretty well over Qu ce nshmd ?-ln t he Southem di::;trict s t hey a re

k nown to be

do you think that in Qu ee nsland yo ur coa l measures are wificien tly to i11smc the

ch ap production of iron ?-'l'he whole thing depends on the cost of carTiage. If there are ironstone bed:; in the immediate neighbourhood of the coal that are suffic iently ·goorl to work, then it makes a material difte rence in that respect, but I am not prepared to say there are. 1852. You have a practical knowledge ·?- Y es, I do not look for the seams or heels of it·onstone;

they might be lying round. .

1853. But from what yo u have ?-I have seen no large bed of iron::;toue whwh \Hllild

promise to be cheaply worked. 1854. Do yo u know anything of the coal-fields >Lt the l\Iackenzie never been any work ed for pmctJud l 855. Do you know of any coal i11 that district where t h ere a re large iron 7- Thc

Styx River is undoub tedly close enough for anything. P ercy I sland is ht rgely co mposed of 1ron stone. Just abou t there

l <::\56. And you think from your experience that there are all the necessary mmerals for the pro­ duction of iron think so .

. 1857. H avin g all these essentials for Lhc production of iron, lttu·e yo u itn)' id en o_r opini on as to why t hey haYe not gone in for iron ?-The demand for iron in Qu_eensland 1s ltttle, aud

l}ntil recently they might have to pay a duty to go into the other colomes, .;o -I tlnnk there has II CYCr been any justification for people going into iron manufacture. . _

1858. By the 'l'he State market was nr>t big eno ugh to ?_ Y cs. .

1859. You realize the Australian market as being

Aberdare Co-operative Comp< tn y Borehole Braeside vV est Moretou

Boxflat Bogside Mafeking Swanb> Lnk

Bonnie Dundee New vVest Moreton Whit wood Speedwell

Bunclamba Rothwell Haigh Tanti vy '£ivoli

Bremer \Y

Glencoe Ca'r Ioni an (\\'alloon ) I-Lt ighmoo r Fairview

Hhoncld

Oa kel' · IJarling Downs

Fnrn{ Creek J H iH'r Ba11k I Ho"·ard I

'Villiam Frya.r, 1st May, 92

1861. Y ou have a total of 31 mines, and four m •y be idle-that would leave you 27 which you know are Yes.

1862. How many men have you ei11ployed as a whole 1-Ab:)Ut 1,300, that is about the mines . . 1863. Has your output been increasing during recen t years ?-It has increased r egularly from the ttme of separation, "·ith variations, of course; last year, for instance, was much below the previous year. The previous yea r was very much la rger than any other year we have had. .

1864. By i11r. L. B . Groo m.- What was it the ye:.tr you s :1 id it was so good ?-539,000 tons. 1865. JJy },{,·. 1Vatkins.- L as t year it was less?-501 ,000 t ons. 1866. \Vhat is your reason for the drop last yead - The same reason that is causing the drop in everything, and pJssibl y s:eamer.:;, no t havin g leg itimate wo rk in own line, h:we brought coal from

Newcastle. 186 7. Are you of opinion that the establishm ent of iron works within the C.Jm monwealth would increase the outpu t of coal in either one State or another tJ any m 'Lrke:l extent ?-I think so. 1868. Are you of opinion that iron worb b3 e;hblished here without Go ve rnmen t a.ssist­ ance ?- I a m not prepared tn speak on t hat poin t, w.tn t .tJ k n.ow pretty ·well the co3t of

everything. In England it takes a great deal of money to esbtblish iron works, and I may say that the men employed about iron arc gea erall y better paid than many cbsses of labour, and if we have to impor t the men from England, poss ibly we would have to pay them a highee rate of wages. It would co>:> t more to works he re t ha n in Engla nd.

1869. Y ou t hink t he of iron wo rks wo uld be a benefi t to the colony ?­

Uncloubtedly. 18 70 . Are yo u wor-king now under t he "Coal Mines R egulat ion A ct ?"-The Act now is ealled the " Mining A ct." 1871. It is not to t he New So uth vV a.' e:,; A ct, a sepa rate A ct ?- -N o, not a separate

Act.

187 2. A s to its provi sious with regard to the cost of mining here, that is the cost imposed on the mine own ers, how does it compa re with t he cost imposed on mine owners in N ew South vv-ales ?-I think there is very lit tle differen ce. lf there is any differ.ence it arises from other causes not legislation. 187:1. B y the ChaiTman.- Ha.ve you any practical experience in iron mining ?-No.

1874. H ow long have you been inspector?- Twenty-on e years, a litt.le over. I wrote to the chief producers of coke, and have received three replies as follows :-Ti voli, 23rd April 1903. To \V. Fryar, Esq. DEAR SIR-

At prese nt we a 1 ·e burning about 280 t on s of co ke per mont h, bu t if there a marke t we could soon turn out three or four times that quantity. \"'e have sold a hout 2 ,500 last year, but the demand for coke is very uncertain and irregular. The price would d epend on t he quant ity r equired, as a large quantity can be more economically wo(ked. At present we wan t 20s. per ton d eliY ered into trucks at the Tivoli railway siding. Of course for large qu·antities it would be considerably less.

\V. Fryar, E sq., Brisba ne.

Yours respectfully, (Sd.) E . WRIGHT.

The Qu eensland Collieries Compa ny Ltd., Howard, 24t h April, 1903.

DEAR Sm-I thank you for yours of the 22nd in st. , relating to t he output of coke a nd price. A s w e are only just beginning to build our ovens it will be s om e li t tle time before we are in a rosition to place any cok e on the market. Should the commission want any informa tion r e cmtl I should be happy to furni sh it, a nd in the e1·ent of the members visiting any of the mines, I shall be very pleaEed to have the honour of entertaining them here. .

Yours fai thfully, (Sd.) WILLIAM R.ANKIN.

'Vat erstown Coal and Coke Company, Eagle-street, Ipswich, 27th April, 1903.

,V, ·Fryar, E sq

DEAR SIR-With regard to the qua ntity of coke supplied for the last two years it amounte d to 1, 136 tons. I mig ht mention as you are no doubt aware that we were opening a new mine and therefore we did not try to push the coke trade as we have clone in previous years. 'Ve arc at present ha ving six new ovens built at the new mine. The quant1ty of course would be according to the demand. The cost would probably be about £1 per ton in the truck. If there is

·any other information I ca n g ive I will be only too happy t o g ive it. I mn, yours sincerely, (Sd. ) THOMAS JOHNSON.

1875. By 1J11·. L. E. G1·oom.- Tbe officia.l report shows the amount of coal that has been produced in Queensland up to 18 99 1- Yes. 1876. Can you give us the flgures for the three years since ?--The total for the whole State-

sent.

1900 497,1 32 ton ·.

1901 53 9,47 2

190 :J 501, 53 1 "

1877 . Have you got fig ures showin g the quantity of coke? - N othing except those in the 1878. H ave you an y idea of the t o Broken Hill ?--J know there was very httle

1879. B y the Chninnan.- H avc yo u an}7 r easo n for thinking tlmt your coke is a t all inferior ?­ N one whateve r. vVe hai'C stron g reason to t hi11k t hat it is nH good as nn y in the So uthern H emi sph ere, a nd it would be vastly improved by •

93 William Fryar, 1st May, 1903.

1519

1880. I notice you allude to the Southern H emisphere; what about the North ?-I am not in a position to speak, because we do not come into contact with it. They have sent it out to Port Pirie in la rge quantities. 1881. By J lf?·. Wcttkins.- Chiefly German ?- Chiefly, but large quantities of as well.

188 2. By the Chai?· man.- T he t·eason you say Southem H emisphet·e is because you do not know sutli cient of the :No rthern t.o co mpare it ?- That i:-; su .

Cn.ptain George AnderRon Richa l'd s, sworn anJ examined. 1883. By the Chcti?·nwn. - Where do you live7--I am metallurgical eng ineer at the Mount Morgan Gold M ining Company. 1884. You have had co nsid erable expe-rience in your profession ?- About twenty years' practice. I might explain that I am a member a£ the Soc iety of Chemical Industry, and a la rge number of similar professional institutions dealing with mining and metallurgy.

1885. A re you in a position to express a n opinion as to the po:;sibility of t he successful manu­ facture of iron and steel from A ustralian ores?-Yes. 1886. ·will you t ell us what youl'information is?- In 1901 I visited the United States, and was all through t he it·vn and steel region ;. I want with t he special obj c:::t of seeing matters relating to my own work, and I t ::>J'{ th:) oppJ;·tunity of stu:lying the indu>t ry from. ewl to end, from t he mine:> righ t

t hrough all t he tran ;pJrt to the nnnufa ::tur.:J of iron a nd steel at Pitt;burg. I v i,; itecl :-;cvenl.l other.>. \Vhile t here I all the stati;tics I cJulcl relating tJ thair wage;, tll3 di.;tan ce r,tw nnterials

have to be ra iled a nd shipp3d, and t he cost of manufacture, ttnd the condit ions under which the products were manufactured. 1887. You are i n a p03 i t,ion from yvur knowledge of resou rce.; to co :1l)'tre t he po:;si­

bility of the successful manufacture in A u ;tr-ali a?- Yes . 1888. \Vh,tt is your opinion 1--Tlnt iron and steel c1n be m.mufacturecl in Au:;tralia about as cheaply as in the United State3. Sin ce I c::tme b:wk, thinking the co mmiRsion migh t require me to give evidence, I have carcfull y looked up .American an::l Eur·opean statistics of a similrt r nature to those I have

already mention ed. 1889. Y ou are quite satisfied on the s:ttisfi ed. "When I wa <; in London I

discovered two propositions were before English investors for the floatation of iron and steel companies fo r Australia . I had an opportunity of going through the expert re po rt.; on the propoJitiom. I am not at liberty to state what the were, but it t he opinion I had already formed. .

1890. What do you put down for the cmt of manufacture for a ton of pig in the United States - Pitt> burg say 1-That has bee n e3tinn.ted by co mpetent authority. 189 1. D id you form any opinion yourself ?-It will vary from about 32s. per ton to about *Os. 1892. ·what is the cost of production of steel 7- I did no t go into that closely enough to g1ve an

estimate that would be accurate enough, except that I may stttte that I estinmte roughly that it is about half the selling price. 1893. What is the selling price per ton pig ?-It varie:;. I h two here.

1894. Before I go to the statistics I want to get your own opinion 1- I t ook the

I could get, and went through them to see if they were correct ot· not. P erhaps tlw; would do, the selhng price as quoted by the American statistics.

Jan. 1899 D ec. 1899 Jan. 1900 Dec. 1900

No. t Foundry.

£ 8. d.

3 17 1 to

2 7 ll to

Average fo r 1898 1899 " 1900

£

1

3

3

2

" MINERAL INDUSTR 'l. " AMRRICAN OF PI<: lRO".

8 .

13 19 17 12

Birmingham, AlaiJCuna. No.2 Fonnd l'y.

cl. £ ,<.;, d. £ ... d.

4 1 12 to 1 13 4

2 3 Ul 11 :\- to l7 1

l :! J 3 to :1 14 :1 1

1 4 1 t.o 2 7 ll

Chiwgo. Northern No. 2 £ 8 . d.

2 G 3

3 16 0 .\-

3 19

AND

]>,-ice L iM, 15th Decemhe,-, 1902.

No. 3 Foundry.

£ ... d. £ 8 .

1 11 3 to 1 12

3 9 9:\- to 3 12

3 8 7 to 3 10

2 4 t e> 2 3

Sout.hern No. 2 Foundry. £ s. d.

2 3 4

3 13 9

3 16

P ig iron-No. 3 Foundry , Midulesborough vVarrants

£ 8 . d.

2 8 0 per ton.

2 7 8

Scotch YVarrants, C:lasgow H ematite \ Varran"ts, \\'est Coast

1\INI' ll f:SO X

Price Li,t, Jwwary, 190:J.·

Pig iron at Glasgow, No. 3 ...

P ig iron at MiclcHesborough, No. 3

2 14 9

2 18 lO

£ s. d.

2 14 0

2 7 0

d. 3! •

11 10 9

Captain G. A. Richards, 1st Ma.1·, 1903. 94

P rices paid hy jJ{, M. G. jJf. Co. fo,. Pig ir·on lanclecl K epple Bay, ((ueen.

May, 1901 Sep., 1901 Dec., 1901 Sep., 19 02

£ 8, d.

5 5 0 per ton.

4 0

4 15 0

5· 4 0

189,). :Are your figures confined to pig or· hn,ve you steel as well ?- Almost entirely conf\ned to pig 18 96. IH any relati' e vn,lue between pig and steel ?-Yes; when you ha,·e pig at a certain price you can n,l ways produce steel from it. The cost of producing pig uepends on a great many factors, the quality of the ores, &c.

1897 . Once yo u have pig there is the extra to ge t the steel'?- Yes ; it will vary according to d ifferent conditions. 1898. What is the extra cost above the pig iron ?- I cannot give you the fi gures easily. 1899. Say t he pig is worth £3, what is the extra cost required to turn it into steel on the

average; is it 50 per ce nt. on the cost of t he pig ?- I have an estimate here of producing pig in a certain locality at £ 1 11 s. 1 O}d ., and the estimate of producing steel from that comes to £3 6s. 9d. 1900. JJy Jlh L. E. G1·oom.--Is t hat a fair a verage loc>tli ty to take ?- Thrtt is mther an excep­ tional case.

1901 . By the Ch(ti?·nw?t. - You think 100 per cent. is rather high ?---Yes ; I think so. 1902. A good average rule is that if pig is wort h £;3, st eel is pradically wor'th twice as much ?-Yes. 1903. Whn,t to -day is t he price of pig landed in Australia ?-1 cannot quote you anything closer than Mt. Morgan's figures.

190±. How is it generally bought l- It is prob>tbly bought free on board in Americ>t. 1905. How would the two· things compare there ?-Roughly, about twice the price of the other. 1906. You that you are satisfieu that pig can be produced in Australia at the same price t hat it is produced in America ?--That is so .

1907. Are you speaking from your knowledge of the iron resources and of the requisites in Aus­ tralia ?-Yes. 1908. Have you special knowledge how far all the requisites can be supplied in I have compared the Australian conditions with the United conditions piece by piece, cost of labour, cost of living, distances of transport, accessibility of raw materials, and all such conditions, and I have gone through t he p:·ice of the various mw m'Lt erials, _s uch as coal and coke, very carefully, and although

I have made no exact calculntion, the conditions are so very close that there could not be very m.uch difference. 1 909. Have you directed your attention in this connexion to Queenslitnd resources especially, or lookeu at all Australia ?-All Australia. Coal and iron in Australi>t are so very near the sea-board that the cost of trans port. is much than in the United States.

1910. Do you speak more particuhdy for Queensland am speaking generally of Australian conditions; when I speak of Austmlian conditions I include Queenslanu generally not specially. The surveys of iron ores have not been completerl, but only just begun. 1911. Of course you know in some no coal of any value has been discovered?- Y es.

1912. ·would that make any difference to the establishment of the iron industry

there ?- As a rule, they take the ore to the coal, but it all depends on the matter of back loading. 1913. If coal and ore are in close proximity so much the better ?-Of course; but there are really only two instances in the world where coal and iron run together, that is in England and the Southern States of America.

1914. Your idett would be to bring tbe ore"\ to the coal ?-That is generally best. The location of works depends on a great many factors. As a rule it would be best to bring it to the coal, but it will depend on a great variety o£ circumstances-the population of the district and back loading being the principal ones.

' 1915. You have given this consideration to the question and you are satisfied as regards the probability ?-Yes. 1916. How have you estimated the wages of Australians as compared with Americans ?- I find the wages throughout the iron regions appear very similar to the wages we pay to gold miners in A ustralia.

1917. \Vhat rate per day ?-- About a shilling per hour. 1918. By J 1{? ·. Watkins.-Is that the avemge of the iron worker in America ?-About it ; in some cases much lower. 1919. By the Chai1·nwn. - vVhat do you work out the cost of producing a ton of pig in Aus­ tralia ?- I have not worked it out in that way; I made a comparison of the cost of living, cost of trans­ port, &c. The cost of producing pig iron will also uepend on the management and the amount of money available.

1920. You have given us from 32s. to 40s. ; what do you think it will be in Australia ?---It will probably be between these two limits 32s. to 40s., t he s>tme as in America. 1921. Are you satisfied that t here is no reason why it should not be more or less as compared with America?--Yes. Some other conditions may not be in favour of Australia, because it is now country and will be worked on a smaller settle. .

1922. There is nothing that occurs to you at present why it should not be produced >tt the same price as in America ?- N othing at all. 1923. Or why it should not be put on t he market at the A merican price ?- That is so . 1924. vVhat ·are the various ftems which you have considered in connexion with t he cost of product ion ?- l\1aterials first. I.imestone, iron ore, coal or eo ke, labour, su nrlrirs.

1925. Is manganese a large item 7- Not a Ye r7 large one.

95

19 26. Labour ?-Yes.

1521

Cnptnin G. A. Richard•. 1st )I n;·, 1903.

19 27. What do you me

nat urally near a good coal-field. 1930. Have you

19 32. By is to maehinery, is it '1- Yes. 2;;. Th:L t is the

minimum e t imate under the bes t co nditions. ·

1933 . And what arc fair average eo ncli tions ?-There is no interest on th E' cost uf eomtructin g t he pla nt; there is n o allowance for con t ractor's fees, and sm.:h like C'xpe nses. 1934. By J!1·. L. E . Groom.- Vi! Ill; there any on th e Am erican C'stim ate ?-Y es . 19 35. 8 y the Chainnan.-'l'o what Ax tent was intet·est allowed 7- I cannot say.

1936. Ry .Jf1·. L. E . G1·oom. - 'l'h ere are other items; would the

193 . Assuming it wa s normal avcragC' work, what do you think wo uld be a fair a i·C'ragc 7-10 . or 12s . would be a fair u.Yeragc. 1939. R y the Chainnan.- H avc you studied the Canadian system of bonuses 1-No, I haYe not ;;tud ied that system. I know they

1940. Do yo u recognise any necessit y for a bonus to enco ura""C' the ind ustry?-Y PS. 19-!l. How is t lmt?-It is very hard to persuade peopl e to embal'l{ in a n indust1·y of this kind. On ce a n iron and steel workH is establisheu, a nd it is ptoved that it is >L paying industry, it will he Ye ry easy to ""Ct people to em bark in it. I made at tempt in E n gland to persurl e peopl e I knew to

embark in t he industry, no special effort ; they were fri ends of min , but. t hey had got it into theil' head t hat wages were too high in Australia and eondition s unsat isfaetory . 19 -U. And yon think ·that t hP p1·opo:;al to give n bonus of £ 250, 000 \\"Ou ld induce the

embarkation of th e n ecessary capital ?- I believe it would. 1943. It would be an assurance of a certain result 7--Y es . 1944. D o yo u reckon it would cos t > L co nsirl erahlP amount to establi sh works suitahlP for the manufaeture of Austmli

19-! 5. In forming your estimate as to the possibility of th e successful establishmen t of t he iron industry, did you ascertain wh a,t was t he prohahl e total Australian rr gui1·ements?-Y es, but it would flu ctuat e. 1946. ·what do yo u estimate the requi re ments of A ustralia in pig iron ?--I have made no es timate.

1947. ·what have you taken it at?-I took it at about 200,000 or 300,000 ton s of mils, girders, pig iron, structural plates, and things of this kind. . . ,

1948. ·what do you es timat e wou ld be the cost of work s to satisfy those reqm1·ements 7---: -1< rom t hree-quarters of a million st erling upwttrd s, but that would depend on the place at whwh located ; 1f they had their· "own ore· steamers, and if they had attached bolt mills and spike mills and branch m .il ways. 1949. I understand you have given tha,t matter a, lo t of Y .

1950. You have made no personal of the minC's e1the1· of Iron or cmtl ?-Not wtth the

obj ect of forming an estimate. .

1951. You acquired from official sources full informat ion on 7-Yef>: .

1952. Is there any informat ion you can give us which will asstst, pm·tiC ularly m to conclusion as to whethet· it is a riaht thinS of in form ation yon

want. 1953. W e want information which win show that our resources a, re such that we can turn out t\1 e stuff at a price wh ich will compete with the American article 7- P C' rlmps if yo u will kt JM give you stati tics it wi ll help. .

1954. vVhat information have you th ere 7--l should like to d mw yo m· attent1on lo the rate at which the production of iron and steel has b een increasing. _ . r

1955. This paper shows the increase in t h P proclu ctwn of Iron and steel ?- l' C'H.

Yent·.

INCREASE OF l'RODUCTI ON OF IRON AND STEEL.

l:.nxluction of Pig lron.

Hntc of fn c·rcase. J•opulation. Rat e of l n f' rcasc.

--------------------------------- -------Gross 18:-10 16.3,000 12,8GG,020 :n ·.; 1 1840 :n:;,ooo !) J pe r cent. 1/,0(;!),4.);{ 1850 !564,000 7!J I !!I ,8/(j 1860 821 ,22:{ 40 ;{ I ,44:{,:{2 1 :1.1· 11 1870 1 ,G9G ,429 lOG :3 ,.J.)8,:li L 2:2 ·(jj 1880 :-1,8:3.), 191 12G ()0, l.) .j , / 8:3 :>o ·oH 1890 8,552, 67!) * 12:3 64,000,000 28·1)0 Thi s is t he product fo l' the year .Jun e, to the c:enr; u-; whcn·a..: tlu .. fi:;ure-; an• for f•alt•JH\a r years.

Captain G. A. Richard 1st May , 1903. 96

This table brings out the striking cm1clusion t ha t the production of pig iron always increased more rapidly than t he population , and that t he ratio is an in cr easing one. But the production of iron in Great Britain appears to be now very nearly stationary, as wi ll appear from t he following table, givin g the quantity produced since 1880:-

-

1880 1881 1882 1883 1884

Grea Ger1 U nit The

t Britain 11a ny eel States V\Torld .

--

-

Great Britain Germany United States The ' Vorld ...

...

.. .

...

...

I

I ' ... ... ...

Cross Tons.

7,749,2:33 8, 144,449 8,586,680 8,529,300 7,811 ,727

1885 1886 1887 1888 1889

SOCIETY OF CHEMICAL I NDUSTRY.

(BY W. A. BoNE, D. Sc., ,P rr. D.)

Output of P ig I ron.

1880. 1890.

Gross Tons.

7,415,469 7,009,754 7 559 518 7:998:969 8,245,330

Milli on Tons. /w orld 's Output. Mi llion Tons. /World': Output.

. . 1901. I Output 1901.

Milh:J Tons. World's Output'.! Output 1880.

Per Cent. Per Cent. Pe 1· Cent.

7·80 43·:3 7•90 29·3 8·90 23·0 1 '14

2·68 14•9 4•58 [7·0 8 ·30 21•3 3·10

3·83 21·3 9·20 34 ·0 14•00 36 •0 3·66

18·00 100·0 27•0 100 ·0 39 ·00 100·0 2·17

Output of Steel.

1880 1890 1899 0 t t 1899 u pu

Tons. /World's Tons. /world's Output./ Output 1890. Alillion Tons. World's Output.

---- ___ , ____ Per Cent. ! Per Cent. Per Cent. • 1•375 :l2·75 3·68 31·0 5 ·00 19·0 1·36 0 ·728 17·33 2·13 18•0 6·2 23·2 2·91 1 •247 29·7 4•28 36·0 10 •6 40·0 2•22 4'205 100·0 11 ·9 100·0 26•7 I 100•0 I 2·24 1956. ·what is your opinion of the proba ble demand, supposing we were to establish the indust.ry in Australia ?-There will be a big demand. There is only one iron or steel works near here, and that is in Japan. These works cost £2,300,000. I believe there is some talk of es tablishing iron works in China. vV e are very much n earer than Europe and America to Eastern markets. Our works will be on the c::>:tst an::l easily shipped. It costs 9s. a ton to carry iron and steel to the seaboard in America­from Birmingham, Alabama. 19 57. You think Australian works ought to be able to supply Australian requirements?-Yes. 1958. By JJ11·. L . E. Groom.- Considering the output that there is from the industry from the other iron-producing countries, and co nsidering the rate of consumption going on, do you think there will be likely to be a dtt mand upon Australia I do. Taking the United States, natural conditions, and comp:tring t hem with Australian conditions, you will find t hat the baJance is generally in favour of the Australian conditions. In America t hey have to pay royalties. 1959. By the Chai1·man. - Y ou say that iron consumption is generally on t he increase during late years, and you hand in a paper ta.ken from the Presidential Add ress, American Instit ute of Mining Engineers, 1891, which siwws the increase1--:-Y es . 1960. You think our ore superior to German very much so. 1961. H ow do they compare with American-equal to American ?- I am satisfi ed that all the natural conditions favour t he Australian industry in comparison with American or European. 196 2. · What is t hat about works on the Pacific ?-That is in Japan. When I was in A merica a gentleman- a well-known authority in iron-had been examining the iron deposits on the Pacific coast, with t he object of the production of iron t here, with unfavorable results, I believe. 19 63. Tell us any other conditions which ma ke for or against the establishment of this W ell, t he financial co nditions seem to be against it as compared with European. There is an inertia of capital which see ms to stick to cc 1 ·tain districts where there are vested interests, and there do es not seem enough vested interests, backed up wi th capital, to develop this country j so t he thing which seems t o be against it is the finan cial factor. · 19 64. The findin g of t he mon ey 7- The finding of the money. I !)65. You find a. hesitation to invest, although iron is Yes. 1966. Y ou think the offe r of a bonus would overcome the inertia to so me Yes, very considerably. 1967. Tell us something more for or against?- I wo uld like to dt•aw your attention to the ment of t he production in t he United StatE's, England, Germany, France, Russia, and Austri a :-Percentnge of P ig leon f1"om Iron Ore Percentage of Manganese used to Pig Iron obtained ...

U ni ted tates ...

Great Brita in ...

97

PRODUCTION OF IRON AND STEEL. BY JOliN BIRI\INlliNE. TRANSACTIONS Q}" AM. I NST. M. E., 1900.

Captain G. A. Richards, 1st May, 1903.

TABLE I. - World's Product of Iron and JJfangan ese o,·e and P ig h on.

1. 2. 3. I 4.

Cou ntry. Year. Iron Ore. Yc<>r. Manganese Year. Pig Iron. Ore. I

---- ' TOns. To ns. Tons. . .. . .. . .. 18!)9 24,683,173 1899 9,935 1899 13,620,703 ... .. . . .. 18!)8 1899 231 1899 14, 176,938 9,305,319 Germa ny a nd Luxemburg .. . . .. 1899 17,989,665 1898 43,354 1899 8,029,305 France .. . . .. ... ... . .. 1899 5,067,500 1898 31 ,900 1898 2,567,388 Rus ia ... ... . .. ... . .. 1897 4,107,467 1899 576,445 1899 2,222,469 Austria-Hungru·y ... ... . .. 1897 3,035,005 1897 5,904 1897 1,308,423 Belg ium ... ... ... . .. 1898 217,370 . .. . .. 1899 1,036, 185 Sweden ... ... .. . . .. . .. 1899 2,435,200 189!) 2,622 1899 497,727 Spain ... ... ... . .. . .. 1899 !),234,302 189!) 158,419 I 189!) 295,840 Canada ... ... . .. . .. . .. 1899 68,891 1899 1,412? 1899 94,077 Italy ... . .. . .. ... . .. 18!J7 200,709 1897 1,608 1897 8,333 Greece ... . .. . .. . .. ... 1898 485, 159 1899 15,300 ... .. . .. . .. . .. . 1898 473,569 Cu a ... ... ... .. . .. . 189!) 368,758 1899 13,636 N ewfoundland ... . .. ... . .. 189 7 58,940 Turkey .. . ... .. . ... .. . .. . ... 1899 38,305 Brazil .. . ... ... ... .. . . .. ... 1899 62, 178 ., India ... ... ... . .. ... ... ... 1899 77,348 ? Chili .. . .. . ... ... .. . . .. ... 1899 36 ,996 ? J a pan ... ... ·â€¢· . .. .. . .. . ... 1899 6,370 ? Portugal ... . .. ... . .. ... .. . 1899 4,130 ., I J ava ... ... . .. . .. ... .. . .. . 1899 910 ? ------- ----- ----82,602,646 867,003 I 38,!J85, 76!J

1523

-

I a rgue from the fact that the consumpt ion of iron is increasing so rapidly that n ew inm and steel works must be put up somewhere. I would like to point out another singular fad. A large number of iron· and steel works in the older centres have been shut down, yet at the sawe time new works have been put up in ne w localities. In Sweden, 1901, there were 113 mills in operation and 26 idle; in South

Russia there were 23 in operation and 33 idle. In America during 1901 the st eel plants had a total capacity of 21,000,000, which amounts to an excess of actual output of about 60 per cent.; yet at the same time in the United States large iron and steel works have been put up at Alabama, where the conditions for assembling the mw materials and manufacturing and exporting the product are very

much better. What I want to point out is that while the old works are being shut up, new works are being put in in new localities. Down in Mexico a big iron and steel works is being put up at JVIonteray at a cost of 15, 000,000 dols. This illustrates the fact that it has become necessary to establish the iron industries in better localities throughout the world. The t endency used to be to bring the raw materiala to where the labour was and vested interests are, but the t endency in modem times is to bring the works

where the raw materials are to be had cheapest and best and where good export facilities are

obtainable. I argue from this that Australia, having a very good location as regards the ores, is in a very advantageous position. 1968. By Jlb·. L. E. Gr·oom.-The diffi culty is to make capitalists realize that we have those conditions is the difficulty. ·

. 1969. By the Chai1·man.- Is there anything else bearing on the question which you would like to tell us 1-I would like to draw your attention to the analyses of Lake Superior ores. 1970. By Mr. L . E. Groom.- Have you compared them with t he Blyt.he River and other Aus· tralian ores

1971. How do they favorably.

1972. By the Chai1·man.-The assays of those ores are inferior to what you co uld get from Aus· tralian ores superior.

1973. You know, of course, that large quantities of Spanish ore a re iutroduced into England ?­ . Yes. I would like to put in a statement showing the traversed from mines to upper lake

ports in Minnesota-THE GEOLOGY OF MINNESOTA. (BY H oRACE V . WINCHELL.) 1lfinn esota l 1·on Min ing.

The distances t raversed from mines to upper lake ports as follows :-From Marquette R a nge, east of R epublic and .Michigamme, to Escanaba, distance not oYer From Marquette R a nge, a t R epublic and Michigamme, to Escanaha, d istance .. _. ...

From Marquette Range to Marquette From Marquette R a nge to Glad stone ...

F rom Menominee Range, east of Mast odon (C rystal F alls ) From Gogebic R a nge to Ashla nd, about' . .. .. .

Erom Gogebic Range to E scanaba, about . . ..

From Vermillion Range to Two Harbors, about

From Mesabi Range t o Dulut h a nd Supen or, about ... The sailing distances are as follows :=

Marquett e to Clevela nd Escanaba to Cleveland ... DtJluth to Cleveland Ashland to Clevela nd

Escanaba to Chi cago Jl

)Jiles.

583 523 823 774 192

Mil es. 65

15

60 to 13C 82 45 184 68 to 90

75

Captain G. A. Ri chards, 1st 1la.r, 190a 98

I should also like to submit a statement show ing the a.mount uf royal tics paid­ REPORT ON THE l\'lESABI IRON H.ANGE IN MIN ESOTA.

(BY Hot:.\ CE V. STATE GEOL OC:IST. )

Cinn cinati. (To Standard Ore Co . ) Biwabik. (ToP. L Kimberly) B 11vnbik. (To Bcrringcr .et a!. ) V irg ini a . (To Weim er ct al. ) \tVyoming. (To A. J. Dec ke r) \Vyoming. (To J. T. ,Jones) \Vyoming . (To Pa rkersburg Iron Co.) New Engla nd. (ToN. D. Moore) ... New Eng land. (To J. B. W eimer) Lone .Jnck. (To J\.Ioore ancl .Folel') M1 ssabe (To H. W. 6Iiver)

Oh io. (To J as. Shr.•r;dan eta!.) .. .

ltOl'.\J.TIES.

Li.,t of Sub-Leaded already made.

ltOj'Oit,\'.

$

·55 "50 ·.JO "50 ·30 "50 "50 "55 "50 ·65 "65

•60

H ale. (To F . A. Bettes and H. P. Barbour) •50 & "40

Ad\·an ce Royalty.

(!\

23,000

25,000 40,000

30,000 50,000 25,000

75,000

------ 270,000 • 5J,0):) t:l:l3 a. lt.3rna.tc y e1.r. = £ 155,0JJ p o:· ,\ 'Clr. Aavance Royalty = £54,000.

1\.linimum output.

Tons.

150,000 300,000 *100,000 50,000

25 ,000 25,000 50,000 150,000

50,000 50,000 450,000 150;000

50,000

·-------1,550,000

I have hers a of t!J e w.1,ges p:1id in the L:tke Superior iron ore region about six year.' old; wages gone up sin ce then. List No. I show a the general ra te throughou t Colorado. I have not particulars

of t he exact pay of the CJlorad o Iron ·works, but I ass ume it is corresponding to this, which is published by the St11te 13u re.:L u of Mine.s. N o. 2 shows the wages of the Lake Superior ore region some six years ·ago-REPOR T OF THE STATE B1)REAU OF MINES, DENVER, U.S.A.

Shift boss Miners Tramm ers C L<>'el'S Nippers Timbermen Topmen Labourers E ngin eers Pumpmen

Ore Sorters Blacksmiths

LIST No. J.

L abour in Col01·ado. Gene1·al Rate.

LrsT No. 2.

rl'he L ake Snperior hon-Ore R egion •. (By Horace V. Winchell.)

$3·50 to $5 ·00 per day. 2·50 to 3·00

2 ·50 to 3·00

2·50 to 3 ·50

1 ·00 to 3·00

3·00 to 4·00

2·00 to 3·00

2·00 to 3·00

3·00 to 5·00

3 ·00 to 5·00

2·00 to 3·00

3·00 to 5 •00

Labour costs are lower in t he iron mines than in t he copper mines ; surface men and labourers receive about 4s. 7d. to 5s. (5\ 1·1 0 to ;il l ·25) per day. Miners get from 6s. 3d. to 8s. 4d. ($ 1·50 to $2) per day. Engineers and shovel men get from £15 l 2s. 6d. to £31 5s. ($ 75 to $150) p er month. The number of men employed in and around these iron mines has excee:led 30,000.

It may be of interes t to you to know that in thEr United States, in 1890, 7,154, 000 tons of iron pig were smelted with coke, and 2,500,000 were smelted with anthracite, and only 700,000 with charcoal. 197 4-5. Can you tell us as regards the general possibility of development from what you saw in the United States ?-I would like to point out that the estimates of iron ore on the surface can only be that of hard ores t hat have not been weathered. The great portion of iron ores are soft, and ores which

do not show much on the surface. I should like to mention one case- the Mesabi R ange.

'I' hi-; ra n !{C wa-< in 187 5, and for fifteen years no ore was opened, only hard ores were discovered at lir.,t. lt wa.; vi.;ited by experts, but it was not up. til the first discoverer noticed some iron ore on the routs of a tree that soft ore wa,s discovered. 1976. By ,l/r· . Watkins.- vVould you consider Tasmanian hard or soft ores'1-Distinct.ly hard ores. I do not attach much importance to an estimate of ore in sight of 2,000 or 3,000 tons when it occurs in fi at country and softish ore.

1977. By the Chairman.- Would you attach much importance when the ore in sight practically amounts to 20,000,000 tons?- Yes. vVhen t here is only a few thousand tons of ore in sight, there may b a very big mine. The largest and biggest mine near Chicago was discovered from iron slates, and it was not until t hey prospected for a considerable time t hat they found the ore. I wou ld like to point

out t ha t the business of discovering a mine is quite a separate business in t he United States. Prospectors, wh o are separate from big mining companies, prospect round with diamond drills, and they are very numerous. The valuation of ores on t he surface is misleading, except in cases where large quantities are i 11 view.

1978. By Jlh. L . E. 01'oom.-Would you es timate that that is all that is t here'I---No, you would have to go by the indications generally. In Queensland the iron deposits have been even trenched on.

99 Capt:>in G. A. Richards, 1st May, 1903,

1525

1979. _I understand to say tlmt, that in some conditions h ere it may not

be favorable 111 w1th other couutnes, still in other essentials t he conditione are very favor­

able .. Do you t hm!< that as regards t he Dlyth R1vcr, where the mine is near the sea-coast and the maten al can be l:arnccl straigh t away, th:tt g ives t hem a distinct advantage

Y e .

1981. And you think the conditions are feasible 7-Yes. 1982. Did you criticise the figures the basis on which h e was going to work the mine 7-N 0 ; I had not followed the works as close as he had. . 1983. By Jlfr. Watkins.- Y ou say very distinctly that you are of opinion t hat we can produce 1ron ore at about the same co.·t as in America ?-Y es.

1984. \Vill you tel.l t he Commi ssion how you arrive at the conclusion t hat capitalists will 1mnt a bonus when t he ·elhng pncc,

cond1t10n prevall m and Germany, a nd, in addition to this, the people of those

countnes prefer to see the1r own mdustri es go on; t hey prefer to put their money in th eir own country rather t han in a country far away. ·

19 85 . They d o not invest it here?-Y es. But I would like to point out that the iron ore

re ources, also those of coal, have only been st udied quite lately. In Queensland, nothincr has been done in that direction until the few weeks, and capitalists generally wait for a scheme "'to be mast ered to them before they invest in it . And then I would like to point out that recent legislation

m A ustraha has alarmed the more conservative capitalists. 'l'hey will wait a little until everything is settled. 1986. By Mr. Watkins.- L egis!ation in what respect 1-Such as the wages boards in Victoria; they do not understand, and are afraid it might upset the country. Nothing is so timid as a million

dollars, except two million. 1987. You say the laying down of a pl ant would run from t hree-quarters to two millions 1- Yes, for an output of about 250,000 tons. 1988. If we give £250,000 of money it follows that before tlte British investor will go 1nto a

good thing he wants us to contribute that amoun t to the erection of the works 'I--A pioneer generally expects some reward. I£ he is the discoverer of a gold-field he gets some reward, and I take the bonus they are giving as a welcome to pioneers in a new industrv. 1989. Then t h ere is a risk as to the ?-I do not think so. I do not reckon any

risk if properly managed and treated fairly by the Government. 1990. So far as you are concerned you wo uld not be afmid to embark on the industry straight out 1-The risk of management is a risk, and wit h an incapable board of directors you might get into financial diffic ulties. For instance, the works might not b e put up in the best and rival works,

in. a very much better position as regards transport, might cut them out of the mad;:et. 'l'he works m1ght be ill-designed, or they might get into big law suits for infringing some patents. 1991. .By Mr. L. E. Groom.-The bonus would not protect against t hese evils ?-No, but help to compensate.

1992. By Mr. Watkins.--Then you think the risk i. too great for investors to go into without a bonus depends on the kind of investor. A man investing without knowing anything about investing would consider he was running a very great risk, but if some iron and steel works people, t hose who own iron and steel works, invested, they would have very much less risk, because they wo uld have no risk of bad management. I would like to mention that a big iron and steel works in J ap:tn, the property of

the J apanese Government, costing .£ 2,300,000, is now in fin ancial difficulties. 1993. B y M1·. L. E . Groom.-Is it a State enterprise ?-Yes. They are compelled to increase their capital by about 30 per cent. 1994. By jJifr. Watkins.-Can you any reason for that 1-I have a quotation h ere from the E ngineering Journal-

ENGINEERING JOURNAL.

STEEL WoRKS I N JAPAN2

The latest journals from Japan, both foreign a nd Japanese, are Yery much tuken up with the discussion of t he position of the works; but us ull that is said is mixed with a good deal of speculatiOn , 1t 1s not adv1 suble to go much into d etails until more exact information is available. All howe,·er , seem to be agreed that the fact of t he 20,000,000 yen having already been invested in the works precludes ' any idea of g ivin15 them up. T he Japan. 'l_'imes, a paper published in English, but edited by J apauese, states tha t th e 1m-est1gat10n comm1ttee, cons1stmg of :Messrs. Yashiro (Vice-Minister of Agricult ure and Co mmerce), Sakatam (V 1ce·1Im1ster of Fmance) , (Dn:ector of

the Railway Traffi c Bureau), and Messrs. H otta and Hasegawa , M's. P. , has, after prolonged 1n ,·est1gat10ns mto the business of t h e foundry, s ubmitted the r esult of its work to the Mm1 ster of. Ag n cult ure and Commerce. The. report r ecommends a sweeping change in t he organization of the lS to sa.)_', 1t recommends t h e 1fm1ster to

reorganize the foundry as a priYate concern, with t he GoYernmen:t as 1ts s!J areholcl er.. In other wo rd s, t he foundry is to be converted into a joint-stock company, 'nth a of 2t, t>O O,OOO of \\"h1 ch 20,000,000 1s to be

represented by the plant, board , and so forth, and the remam1ng 1 ,;;00,000 1s to be ra1sed from. the P.ubhe at large. A eparate treatment is to be accorded to t he Rhares of the and to tliose of the prl\·ate 1ncllnduals, as t he

former a re only to receive a d ividend after 8 per cent. has been d1 str1l:utecl to the pnYatc MoreO\- er, the

Government is to g uarantee t hat t he ln:t ter should rec:el\·e a profit of (, per cent. fo r years from t he startmg of the work s. Furtber, t b e Go,·ernmcnt 1s to h unt 1tself to lend money not exc:ced1ng u,OOU,OOO yen free of mtcl'est, to b e refunded in twenty years' instalments from the open ing of the works on the new basis. In addition t he Go,·ern­ ment is to p led ge itself to purchase from t 1J e establishment all the i!'on and steel "·hich it requires, and the work s are

to be exempt from bu siness tax for fifteen years. Of t he profi ts, 8 per ce nt. is to be set aside e,-ery yea r on accou nt of the reserves , while other 2 per cen t . is to be appropriated as 1·esen·es for equalizing di,-idends. Various other sul!gestions haYe been made, but we need no t go into as our object is simply to g iY e a general idea of the

position.

HZ

Captain p. <\. 1st May; 1903: 100

. . Needless to say, the past management of the works has been severely criticised. Mr. K ato, M.P., ex-Foreign Mmrster, and formerly J apanese Minister in London, is reported to have said that the method of conducting the work has smacked of the amateur, not to say of the apprentice ; and that, in consequence, if the works were 1·un on the original lines, they would incur a loss of over 1,000,000 yen a instead of the large profit which was confidently anticipated by their projectors. Mr. Kato's suggestion is that foreign experts should be engaged, and that the conduct of the works should be left in their hands. Of course he is aware tha t fo reign expert s of established fame not undertake such responsible work unless they are g iven a big salary, but this is only a trifling affair, compara­

t rvely speaking. He does not think that any foreign capitalist would be induced to purchase the works, at least for a sum that the Government would agree. I'Ve have followed the industrial progress of Japa n wit h much interest for a good many years, and we hope that t he ultimate arrangements with regard to the steel works will justify the reputa­ tiOn which they have made, n.ot only for energy and skill, but also foi· foresight and prudence.

1995. B y Mr. L. E. Groom.- Where are they calling up this extra 30 per cent. capital from ?­ ]'rom private investors. 19 96. It is really a junction of State and private enterprise ?-Private management and. part State ownership and part private. ·

1997. By /1 11·. Watkins.- Do you know of any reason, added to those you have quoted, why it would be difficult to start iron works in Australia, either without a bonus, or if it were possible, with a protective duty 1-No, I think a bonus should get over the difficulty, or a protective duty. I do not think there is any other difficulty.

1998. You still think that while you can produce here at £1 lOs. 10d. (and the lowest quotation landed at Keppel Bay is £413s., leaving a large margin) that it requires a bonus ?-There are a lot of people who make a profit out of that; the importers make a profit; the middlemen make a profit, and there is nothing to guarantee a capitalist starting an iron and steel works having to compete, perhaps, with surplus from some country which has over-produced.

1999. You think that, under present conditions, without a duty or bonus, that if · any one was to embark in an industry of this kind, there would be a danger of the Australian mark.et being flooded for some time to c::ome '1--Yes, that is so. 2000. It would pay the iron exporters to Australia to do that 1- Yes, it would pay t lwm, espe0ially if they wished to buy the works in.

2001. Or if t hey wanted to hold the market ?-Yes. 2002. By the Clu:ti1:man.-And especially when it is a fight for the Australian market and not any particular State 2003. By Mr. Watlcins .-Have you analyzed yourself any of the Australian oi'es 7-The most of the Queensland ores, I think, that Mr. Ball will refer to were analyzed in our laboratory, but I did not do them myself.

2004. W ere those supplied by Mr. Ball done at your place 1-Yes. 2005. H ave you gone into the question of the coal that you have in Queensland as to its suitability yourself 7-I know the coal very well, but it requires careful testing. I should judge from the coal I have seen and from. rough tests that it is capable of giving very good coke indeed. I have heard it very well spoken of by people who use it. Mr. Dyson, who was manager of Aldersltot smelting works, told me it was very fine coke. He said the Burrum coal would make as good coke as any in the colony.

2006. You do not do any smelting yourself except pig iron for foundry castings. 2007. What fuel do you use t here ?-Queensland coke. 2008. Referring to the cost of producing steel, do you refer to it in the sense that you mean steel blooms 'I--I meant rails and girders; there are so few blooms made for sale.

2009. Can you give us your idea of the cost of producing from the ore a bar of pig iron as against a bar of what is known as steel blooms. You have examined all t he modern furnaces which enaole t 'tr e.rp. to produce straight from the liquid practically 1-I went through the works in America. 2010. You say t hat while t he bloom is practically in a molten state, it is run into n1-ils ?-Yes, it is cast direct from the steel furnaces into moulds. These are taken out by electric cranes and dumped into an underground brick-lined place, to allow the heat to get uniform, and as soon as the heat is

uniform they go straight to the rolling mills. 201 1. That can only obtain in a complete set of works '1--Yes. For instance, if you establish works here such as the Blyth River, they only propose at the outset to produce pig iron, and eventually to go on. I could not give you the figures for steel blooms, but it would probably be about half t he cost of converting the iron into steel, say, about 25 per cent added to t he cost of the steel iron.

20 12. By the Chai1·man. - Which of tlie Queensland deposits for iron do you consider most valm1-ble 'I--I believe Iron Island is most promising, opposite Marble Island. 2013. Have you seen it1-I have samples of it.

2014. You have an assay ?-Yes. 201 5. Do you know the extent visible or proved 7-Mr. Ball, Geological Surveyor, has been up there to estimate that. '

. 2016. He gives it at about two-and-a-half million tons in sight ?-That is on the 2017. By jJ1r. Watkins.-Are you of t he opinion that if we give this bonus of a quarter of a million, t hat it will result in the establishment of one works only 1-No, possibly it would result in the establishment of other works eventually.

20 18. Do you believe there is room ?- Not for A ustralian consumption only, but for export. There is one factor to be taken into account, that is the exports to some extent will depend on the size of the home market, and the A ustralian home market is comparatively small. 2019. By Jl11·. L. E. G1 ·oom.-That would affect it in foreign competition ?-To an e'Xt ent.

2020 . .By Mr. Watkins.- Do you t hink t here is room for more than one ?-Yes, I think so . A lot of iron and steel would be required in India and China, and we might even ship to the Pacific coast of A mer·ica. 2021. Recognising that pig iron is t he raw material many industries, we have to be some·

"Nhat careful as to whether it would increase the price to consumers, and would not the tendency be at

101 Captain G, A 1st M ii.y; 11J'os.

1527

the outset, supposing it were started by one or two, to hold the market so as to rule the It

might be, of cour e, but you could very easily lower your tariff, and let them compete with the outside producers. 2022. What do you think would be the consequence, assuming works were established, do you think the cost of pig iron to consumers would be increased or decreased would be decreased in all

probability. There would be competition between importers and local manufacturers. I think it is a fair thing to as ume. 2023. You think' it would decrease '1-Y es, I think the competition between importe1 ·s and manufact urers would lead to that result. It would largely depend on t he people controlling the Com­

pany. If they followed the practice, which seems only too common, of limiting the output for the purpose of keeping up prices, the price of iron a nd steel might be highm· than it should be, but if they followed the American practice of keeping the price as low as possible, and decrease t he cost of pro­ ducing that article, it might be very much cheaper in Australia.

202+. There would be a. li

2027. Do you think it is low 1-Certainl y low. In the statement of ore at 5s. a ton, no charge wa made for royalty. 2028. Do you know how Marble Island is held ?-I flo not think it is held at all. 202\l. You say you think the deposit there would be the best to \vork?-Yes.

2030.-By the Chai1 ·mcm.-You were talking about some r eport which is confidential, is that report the property of people who are likely to be interested in the iron industry under the Bill ?-Yes. I wish to state that I am not interestRd in the iron industry in any way.

(Taken at Brisbane. )

SATURDAY, 2ND MAY, 1903.

Commissioners present:

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman ; Mr. L. E. Groom, 1 Mr. Watkins.

Lionel Clive Ball, sworn and examined.

2031. By the Chai1·man.- What are you ?-.Assistant Government Geologist, residing at Brisbane. 2032. I think you are the author of a report on the iron deposit;; of the Gladstone district 'I-Yes.

2033. Which has been put _before t he Yes.

2034. And no doubt that is correct?-Yes. 2035. And the result of your own Yes. . . . . .

2036. Have you formed any opinion commercially as to the poss1b1h ty of the successful establish-ment of iron manufacture in Queensland I am not prepared to answer. .

2037. You have not looked at it from a commercial aspect ?-No, simply the geologLCal. 2038. But from the question of the possession of the necessary resources have you looked at it? -I have not seen all the deposits. . .. 2039. Have you inquired from a geological point of view as to the p_ossL bLhty of t he successful establishment of the iron industl'y am beginning it-I have partly done Lt j I have read of all the deposits in Queensland. . . . . . . . 2040. I am not asking whether you have v1s1ted each ?:-I have mquued mto lt. 2041. \Vhat is the conclusion to which you have arnved. Has Queensland all the required mineral Yes. . . . . . q 2042. As regards the iron ore 1t 1s m quahty and quant1ty .-Yes. 2043. And the necessary fluxes?-Yes, fluxes and fuel. 2044. You are quite satisfied of that?--Yes. . . 2045. Are there large deposits of iron ore of good quahty m Queensland ?-Yes, there are large deposits. 2046. And similarly as to coal and limestone and everything necessary?-Yes1 . d 204 7. Tell us what are the chief iron deposits, and do not trouble to go over 1e same groun as 11,.. D t 1 1 d over q Kanrraroo Hills - I have not seen t hese depos1ts, but I can speak uns an 1as a rea y gone .- o · · from a report by Mr. Jack, dated 1892. . . d GO -1 f · 2048. \Vhere is Kangaroo Hills ?-Thirty miles from the sea, at Hahfax Bay, an m1 es rom Townsville. 'f B b t t h · t th · 2049. Is there a harbor nea1· the shortest route ?-Hah ax ay, u ere 1s no own ere, Townsville mirrht be the port. , . . 2050. R oughness of country necessitates detour, is that so J-'Ihe road l S actuall y 80 m1les long. 2051. N 0 formidable range to ot on the road to 2052. There is some reference to a belt of limestone. \Vhat 1s that ?-Mr. Jack, on his map which is with the rE'port, sho"·s that there is_ abundant limestone .. 2053. Generally free from silica, is that so?-We ha\'e not an analysis.

Lionel Olive Ball, 2nd May , 1903. 102

2054. You speak as to Iron Island 7-Yes, one of the smallest of t he Duke Islands, 40 miles north-east of St. Lawrence. 20 55. What is the quality and quantity ?-The I sland is 20 chains in length, and 8 chains. in width. A ll except 5 chain s on the northern end, and a belt 1 chain wide on the west is iron ore. The amount I have calculated as two and a half million tons above the water.

2056. What about the quality 7-I have an analysis here of a sample from t he whole of t he deposit:-Water Silica

Iron Lime Manganese

0·13 2·51 64·72 2·85

nil.

Phosphorus Magnesia Alumina Titanic Acid

0·065 1·07 2·95 nil.

An analysis of a single specimen gave­ Water 0 ·46

1·73 2·71

Lime 5·53

trace Silica Alumina Iron Manganese .. .

63·94 nil.

Magnesia Phosphorus Titanic Acid ... " nil.

2057. Is the 0·065 phosphorus rather high ?- The whole I sland wou ld have to be sampled, and the phosphoric ore separated from the rest, when possibly the remainder of the iron would be suitable. 2058. Do you recognise a certain per centage of phosphorus disqualifies the ore 7- Yes, ·065 is rat her high, but some of the Lake Superior oref< run up to ·06 phosphorus.

2059. Anything further about I ron Island ?- It is leased Crown land; it is leased now. 2060. What are t he t erm s of the lease, generall y an iron lease ?-It is a mineral lease generally. 2061. What are the provisions, royalty or what ?-They pay a rental of ten shillings per acre for the year.

2062. For the whole term ?-Yes. 2063. By Jl£r. Watlcins.- Have they a t enure 7-The term is 21 years, renewable for a further term. of 21 years, on such conditions as the .i\£inister for Mines deems equitable. The t erritory is theirs fo r the full t erm as long as they pay the rent.

rent .

2064. By the Chairman .- And fulfil their conditions about work ?-Yes, and the conditions. 20 65. By Jlfr. J:Vatlcin s.- The Government then could not cancel it ?-No. 2066. By the Chairman.-Except by breach of the labour conditions ?-Yes, or non-payment of

206 7. I s the thing being worked ?-No. 2068. How long has it been let 7-I understand only just lately. Marble I sland has been held under grazing lease, but it will not interfere with a mineral lease. 2069. Anything else about Iron Island ?-It h as deep water on one side, shoal on the other.

2070. By L. E. G1·oom .- The shipping facilities would be easy?- Yes. 2071. By the Chairman.-Name any other deposits with which you are acquainted, and which you think of value ?-Stannage Point is on the mainland. 2072. ·where is that ?-On the mainland, about 30 miles from -Iron I sland.

207 3. What is the quantity?--The quant-ity is small, only 7,000 tons in sight, but it is very pure iron ore. It does not contain any phosphorus, and goes 60 per cent. of iron. Then t here are several iron ore deposits in the vicinity of Mount Morgan; they total about a quartee of a million tons.

2074. Quality ?-The quality is good, 55 t o 62 per cent. of iron. 2075. By Jlh. TVatlcins.-Any silica?-Yes, 4 in on e and 2! per cent. in another. 2076. lJy the Chairman.- Biggenden ?- That is being worked now for bismuth. 2077. W hat is the quantity ?-82,000 tons. 2078. Olsen 's Caves 7--I have an analysis, 67 per cent. iron in one case, and 73 per cent. of iron in another, with traces of phosphorus in on e case and no phosphorus in ,another. That makes it practically pure 1ron ore.

2079. 'What next ?-Alma Creek. That is titaniferous ore. 2080. Do you know what percentage of titanic acid ?- No, we have not had that estimated . 2081. Is there anything said about it on the plan ?-Except the analyses-.No. 1. No. 2.

Water, 0·45 0·56

Silica, 12 ·80 10·40

Alumi na, 9·8 1 1·70

Iron, 55 ·42 56·27

Manganese, absent absent The analyses are from separate deposits.

No.1.

Lime, 3·95 Magnesia, t race Phosphorus, 0 ·11 4 TitanicAcid, absent

No.2. 2·82 not est imated 0·025 present, but not estimated

2082 . There are large deposits at Brisbane and I pswich 1-Y es, at least at Ipswich. 2083. Are they shown on the plan?-Yes. 2084. Now, then, Gladstone ?-The most important is Glassford Creek. 2085. Are any of the Queensland deposits being worked for iron ?-No, none of them. 2086 . H ave they ever been ?-No, except for flux es . 2087. As an iron ore ?-No. 2088. They have been used for :fluxes for what purpose ?-At the smelting works, at Aldershot and other places.

2089. For what metal 7- For copper and lead chiefly.

103 Lionel Clive Bnll, 2nd Mny , 1903.

1529

2090. Has t h ere been any large ou tpu t of lea.d from Queensland ?-There has been no very large output. 209 1. Copper7- Thcrc ha;, been

worked for 1ron ?-At present Iron the depo>it to which I atttLC h most importance fo r the

ma nufacture of iron, next 1ount Lucy, on the Chillagoe R ailway. 2093. Y ou say you have got t he necessary f-lu xes; you recognise limestone as very important?­ Y es . . 2094. Whe1 are t he chief deposits ?--Mortar I sland, containing . !)7 ·5 per cent. carbonate of h me. In co nnexion with this, Iron is close at hand. Mr. Dunstan will have spoken as to this,

and also Mount Etna and Fitzroy H.i ve r, containing 97 ·2 1 per cent. carbona te of lime. In each c1se where it·on has been found there a re abund tLnt depos its of limestone, except at Ipswich. Several thousands of tons have bee n taken from for t he purpose of making lime. The depm its

are not now bein ()' worked. :2095. Now, t hen, fu el. \Vhere do you the most im;_:>O r tn.nt coal deposits. Mr. Dunstan

has al ready spoken as to 8t. L a wrence, lJtLwsun H.ivc r, and Callidc Creek; t he I pswich a.nd Burrum have been left . The Bu rru:n and Ipswi ch, what about t hell1 ?-I have a repo rt on t he Ip.;; wich by ..\1r. IV. E. Came r·on, and one on the Burrum, by Mr. IV. H. R and s. 2096. By Jlh·. L. l!.'. G1·oom.-Does that say anyt hing about t he coal for coke purposes 7-Y es. The average coke from H owa rd coal, the centre of the Durrun1 Coalfield is 66 ·8 per cent.

2097. I s that show n on the plan it is not .

2098. ·where is the Burrum ?-Howa rd, the centr·e of th:l fi eld, is 18 m ile> ol' l\1 L :·y ­

?orough. The fou r main se::.ms have been worked at different times, averagin g from 3ft. Gin. to G fe et m th1ckness. 2099. Has any estimate been form ed as to the quantity of eoal in t hat district report

shows what vi ·ible. 2100. Ca11 you tell us wh ether it is good permanent coal, likely to bJ d mwn on in futu ro?--· Y es, I believe it is and wi ll be. 2101. Can yo u give us any idea of t he quantity?-! cannot give you any estimate; the amount is probably greater t han sh ow ing at present.

2102. By the Chairmcm.- What can you tell u. there fur certain ?- Bore; are needed be:!:ore it can be tated definitely what there is. The output for 1901 h as been 8,200 tons a nnnth for tln

H oward. 2103. They have b een working for t he last twenty ye:J.rs 7-Y es. The above is the brgc·;t I have elilt.imated 6,000 tons per aare in e:LCh bed of co:J.l, and there a rc fo ur bed; the:·e. 2104. H ow many aeres centre of the field is about 20 from t he sea, the beds

are dipping towards the sea, so that t he fi eld would be 20 mil e, across. 2105 . Can you give me an estinJ ate1- No, I cannot. 2106 . Now, as to Ip3wich 7-The be;t of the coke conta in s 3 per cent. ash ; at the l\Iaryborough Gas Company's wo rks it is found that the coke from the large coal contains 3 per cent. ash, and from t he small 9 · 9 per ceo t .

2107. By the Cha :rman.- vVhich do you consider the most important coal deposits for iron smelting 1-It is doubtful which is the m ::> re impor.t< mt, I pswich or Burrum, at present Burrum i:> preferred by th e metallurgical furnace.>. 2108. !Jy .I!?·. L. E. G·room.- Is it used for smelt ing purposes at the present Ye.'>, at tlw

A l dersh ot worb, and also Mount- Perry, and to a limited extent at Mount M or:gan. . . .

2109. B y the Chctinnan.-CMt you speak as to t he existence of other nnnerab wJth

iron ore ?-Chromite, at Ipswich, may be mentioned, because of the iron ore that dtstn ct. vV: do not know the quantity of chrom ite at Ipswich , we simply know i t occurs .1t !:as never w 21 I 0. Manganese ?-I have a report ; t he amount of lH angan e:;e ore tn SJt,h ' at Mount Mt!J c,, s1x mil es west of Gladstone, I have calcul ated as 160,000 tons.

211 J. I s t hat useful ?-Tt is absolutely necessary in the production of steel. 2 11 2. Ry ilb-. L. E. it b ein g exported now fnr the purpo:;;e of nnnufacture of

- No, it is not being exported, but they propose to export it for steel prod uctwn. 2113. Manganese at Ipswich 7-Y es, but I have n ot examined them. . _ . 2114. H ave you examined t he manganese oxide d eposits at Pine mounta1n, 1 psw1011 7-I have. no t. 2115. By the Chctinnan.- Tho long and sh ort of it is you are abunda ntl y sat1s?ed

that Queensland has all th e ores essential for t he satisfactory mamtenance of the 1ron ?­

Quite. 2116. B y Jl[r. TV atkins.- You say that of coune purely from a sttLnd-po i!lt 7-Y es. 2117. I suppose you understand tha t it cannot really be stated that a ny 1ron ?re wo uld b_c suitable until t he furnaces are erected, anrl proper tests ma.de7-T am not qUite sure tlmt I rollow you, :f we have a very pure ore I do not t hink it would be the fault of the ore, pwvtcled tluxc.; wcr·e su1tablc as

well. You have to test by assay before the fumaecs are erected. . .

211 8. Does not the experience of the iron world sh ow that eYcn where Lhc, arc

favorable, and furnaces have been erected, i t has fou nd necessary to oht:m entirely to

suit the fluxes ?-It may be possible, 1 cannot answer tha.t question. 2119. \Vith reference to Iron I sland, yo u stated 1t was under lea<;e, a so rt of aJJnuallea<;e, and that as long as they pay th e rent, they can hold the territory, the Go,:emme:lt, I suppose, ' ': oulrl have power to cancel the lease in the event of the non-fulfllrncnt of the concl:twns ?-Yes,

2120. But if the conditions were ful filled by the people would thG Government sbll have power to cancel ?-I should say not . · . .

2121. l s there not some ques tion before the Department as to the real tenu re wh1ch ex 1sts there at t he present t ime could not answer tha t of my own knowledge. I will t ry and get you the

info rmation.

J,ionel Clh·e Ball , 2nd M"'y; 190:l. 104

2122. With regard to coal, I suppose you have examined the coal to find out if it is absolutely suited for iron prod uction, understanding that it does require coal of a specific character for the pury:ose? . -No; I have not examined the coal for that. I have not made any personal tests myself. 2 ! 23. lJy the Chairman.-Do you know how it co mpares with other coals which have been found

suitable fo r iron smelting 7-I t hink its purity and strength would be the chief thing. 212 4. And how do they compare so far as you know ?-In the t he cokes produced may not have leen pure enough, but I believe from some of our coal they can produce pure enough coke. 2125. By Jlir. !Vatk-ins-Have you any reason to doubt that the output in the past will be maintained as regards the coal measures here generally 7-No; I believe it will increase. I am quite s m'e it will. .

2126. It has been proved suitable for all other purposes ?-Yes; and from its analysis it should be suitable for iron purposes. · .

2!27. By Ah-. L. E. Groom. - Since the Commission sat you have been directing your attention only to iron ?-Y es. 2128. What fields h:we you had time to investigate within the last month ?-Iron Island, Olsen's Ca ves, A lma Creek, and the Ipswich district. ·

2129 . As regards t he Ipswich district, can you give us any additional information to what you have already given 7- It is t he case of the clay ironstone I wou ld like to draw attention to. I saw ten outcrops wit hin two miles of each other up to 2ft. 6in. in t hickness. Nothing more can be said about them until they are surveyed. Possibly they will be an important so urce of iron ore.

213 0. Have yo u any other information ?-One seam 2 feet t hick would contain 11,000 tons of ore per acre. 2131. .. What places did yo u exam ine ?-Only the one place 3 miles north of Ipswich, but there is no reason why t hey should not occur throughou t the coal measures. Clay ironstone also occurs so ut h towards Beenleigh.

2132. Do yo u think this may develop into an important deposit ?-Poss ibly not; but even at that thickness they may be worked. 2133. Did you examine the Pine Mountain ?-Yes. Surface ore at Pine Mountain is too silicious to be of any value, bu't I am convinced it will improve in depth.

2134. By the Chai1·nwn.- What percentage of silica do you consider disqualifies 7-In the case of Pine Mountain, I am sure there is 25 per cent., and more, that is, right on the surface. 2135. By Jlh-. L. E. G1·oom. - You are of opinion t hat the quality of t he ore would improve if a shaft was sunk 1-A shaft has been sunk, and the nature of the ore was found to improve.

By the Chairman.-What is the least silica that would disqualify ?-10 per cent. is pretty

bad. J do not consider it is too much. At Pine Mountain the silica was decreasing as the depth increased. 2137. What is the low est :>ercentage of silica you give?- We have not had an analysis made. 2 ! 38. I want to know what the quantity of silica was. What was t he worst 1-It was certainly over 50 per cent.

2139. What is the best 7-It would be over 25 per cent. in bulk samples. 2140. Did you make any survey in the Dundas district ?-No. I simply went to the main deposits and found them too small to be of any practical value. 2141. Is there any other information you can give the Commission 7-I do not think so.

(Taken at S,ydney.) THURSDAY, 7TH MAY, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman ; Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Watkins,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watson.

Archibald Forsyth, sworn and examined.

2142. What are you ?-I am a rope manufacturer carrying on business in Sydney. 2143. Are you able to give us any evidence as to t he probability of successfully establishing t he manufacture of iron from nntive ores in Australia 7-All I can give you is my opinion ba8 ed on certain facts with which I am acquainted.

2144. You have given considerable attention to the matter ?-Yes. 2145 . Will you give us the benefit of any opinion yo u may have formed ?--Yes. I do not come before you as an expert in iron manufacture, but one who has, for twenty years or more, taken a very active .interest in economic and industrial questions. f n the consideration of these I recognised, many years aao, the necessity for the establishm ent of iron works in New South Wales. On two occasions when r"was in England I went to the trouble of consulting a number of ironmasters and their foremen, and obtained a good deal of information upon which my evidence to-day will la rgely be based. Whim I was last in England the ironmasters expressed the view that bonuses should be offered fo · a period of from eight to ten years, and that t he bonuses should be secured by Act of Parliament. ·They fe lt that and protective duty embodied in a Tariff wou ld be insuffi cient to secure the successful of ·

the industry, because it would be subject to repeal at any time. ..With regard to the matcnals avml.able here, I suppose that you are fully acquainted with the facts, but I may as well give you my own c;tlcuhttlons .. AccordinO' to the report recently issued by Mr. Jaquet, he estimates t hat there are 60,000,000 tons of iron ore sight, or apparently in sight in New South vVales. H e mentions also that accor9ing to the

105

1531

FO\'Syth,

7ti\ May, 1903.

r eport geol?gical in there are 17,000,000 tons of ore in sight at the Blythe

H.tver m Ia mamn. I thmk I should be placmg t he whole of the ore available in the other States at a l?w figure if I estimated it nt 80,000,000 tons, and taking into consideration the discoveries that are hkely to I should place our available s upply a,t n.bout 157,000,000 tons. Taking our annual

consumptiOn of Iron ore at 350,000 tons, the quantity I hn.v e m entioned would give us a supply sufticient for 4-5? years--that 1s aceording to our· present consumption, I think that we may be perfectly safe in ass umtrO' that the quantity of iron ore availn.ble h ere is f ully double what I have stated, because in America the quantity of iron ore which has been taken out of the mines n.nd used for iron manufacture

largely exceeds the original estimates as to t he s upply available. At present it is estimated t hat there are 650,0 00,?00 of ore in sight in the United States, and no doubt that quantity will be largely increased by the dtscovenes made as time goes on . I do not think that it wonld be more than a moderate estimate if we were to assume t hat we have 1,200,000 tons of iron ore within t he Cornmonwealth. I may mention

t hat in Engla nd t hey have already co nsum ed mot·e tha n he amount of coal was estinm'ted to be n.va ibble yen, rs ago. A lthough it may cost more t han it did to obtain coal in England, they still

haven..· great a. stock to work ur)on as they estimnted to be available 60 VE'[Lrs a

iron were very high, and t he bounties were ten times the amount that you propose to offer. I have no later i nformat ion with regard to Canada than tha.tfor the year 1898, when 93,000 tons was produced. I am led to believe, however, t hat t he prod uct last year totalled 180,000 tons. 1 haYe, for a number of years, taken nn active interest in establishing industries by the aid of protective duties, but I t·ecognisc that the circum­ Htances of the iron trade arc somewhat exceptional. Iron enters largely into the cost of machinery,

and is the raw materi al of the iron worke rH. A duty imposed upon iron mi ght become a purely revenue duty. If it were insutficient to spcure the establishment of works here for t he production of iron from our native ore, such a, duty would fall entirely upon t hose engaged in working up the t a w iron. Another thing is that the production of iron pntails t he employment of machinery. I have, therefore,

been opposed for a long time to the imposition of protective duties upon iron. \Vhen I-was a member of the New South Wales Legislative Assembly I incurred a certain amount of odium by voting against the iron dutie. , but I did so, bel ieving that we should run a great risk by imposing duties upon iron, whibt there were very small prospects of iron works being started. I have already mentioned that the

Engl ish ironmasters tated that they would not run t he risk of establishing iron works under protec­ tive duty which might be repealed at any t ime. They further represented that they were afraid that if they started iron works h ere the demands of labour for shorter hours n,nd higher wages might prevent them from carrying on the industry tlpon profitable lines. A bounty would afford t horough security to any per ons who might start works here. My idea is that the bounty sh ould be paid on the quantity of iron actuall y sold and delivered, according to quarterly or half-yearly statements, wh ichever might be

regarded as t he most convenien t. Jt is a very difficult matter to stimulate the pl'oduction of iron by means of an i mport duty, because the impol't duty has to be paid even if t h ere is not a single ton of iron produced in the country. Moreover, a dut.y suflicient to induce iron mastel's to start work here would prove a very h eavy tax upon all those engaged i n working up t h e raw mtLtel'iaL If the iron industry

were established t hrough the operation of a bounty, we should n ot only one or two! b ut probably four or fi ve separate i l'on works in operation before very long. W e a.U know that steel 1s made from il'on, but that is only oHe process, and there are many others whi<.;h would probably_ haYe. to be earned out in separate works. I question whether t here is any establishment in Engla_nd m wlu ch more one-half or one-third of the processes connected with iron manufacture a re earned_ on. One ment in Wales, two in England, and two in Scotland a re engaged in the productwn of plates for shtp

buildi nff and boiler makin

in order to increase the likelihood of bonuses beina effe ctive, 4s. should be dedueted from the bonuses proposed fo r steel, and added to that proposed for iron. Even then steel will he rnore highly

protected than malleable iron. 2146. Jly JJ'!?-. IVatson.- You suggest that instead of offering a bonus of 12s. for steel, _12s. for malleable iron, we shoul d deduct 4-s . from the steel bonus, and increase the bonus for malleable u·on to I Gs. per ton 1-I propose t h

2147. How do you arrive at those fig ur es ?-On the presumptiOn that, the wou ld be

cumulative, because t hat seems to be contemplated by t he Bill. Th: bonus wo uld Lc patd m the first place upon the iron and ·again upon t he steel produced from t he_ tron. In vtew of tho cost of t he respective materials, I t hink t hat malleable iron at :28s. would recetve les encom·aO'emont than steel at 20s. I desire to point out that it would be erroneous to suppose t hat one or two works would carry on all t he operations connected with iron manufacture.

2148. Do you mean t hat more tbar.. that number of works would be necessn. ry to supply the requirements of trade within the Commonwealth ?-Yes, eYen with our present tr'1de. ! n 1898, five of the federated States imported iron and steel to the extent of 298,832 tons, '.'al ued at £2,31 +, 900. Of this q uantity 189, 297 tons co nsisted of rolled a nd flr:t\\'11 iron n.nd steel .: that lS, an6le, bar, rod, !100p, plate,

sheet, castiilgs, girders, joints, fencing wire, pig and scrap, anrl rmlway aml tmn 1:vay bars. '1 he b_alance, t ' t 109 "' 35 to . volued·tt "1147 85G consisted of Yarwus of n·onar.cl steel whiCh had

a ... . un mg o ,.., n R, <• < .-:.- , ' ' . • 1

1

b l

under•"one a "Teater deo-ree of manufacture th:::,n the other, such as p1pes, gah·amzed corrugatec 1eets, ,o ts, nuts. wire ropes, tanks, 1-aihn1y plant, an d a variety of tron.. 'Ihcso

ficrm:es are taken from tho Statistical ReyistrJ' of K e"· South \','ales. It wtll l'e seen that there ts a Yery disc repan<.;y between my n,nd those of ::ifr.

New Zealand, and in the next place be in cludes all the n·on co11tamerl 111 Yarwu'; of machmcry and plant. Of courFe, I only take into c fiyc becnn,Fe at tlw time the figures were

compiled it was not expected t hat \V es tern Australt

Archibald Forsyth, 7th May, 1903, 106

and, therefore, I do not attempt it. The imports of iron to which I have referred therefore do not

include the iron and steel contained in machinery and plant of various kinds ; if this were included, it woul d b ring t he total valu e up to something like three and a half millions of pounds, but we can only expect to make a portion of this 300,000 t on s yearly, for the first few years the balance must <.:ontinue to r en,ch us in the shape of machinery and other manufa<.:tures of iron, until we are in a position to manufadure the machinery ourselves. JYiy opinion is that, if iron works were started, a number of establishments would have to be carried on. For instance, wire drawing is never done at the same works a s those in which the iron is produced in the· raw state, and a number of other operations would have to

be conducted separately. Therefore, I should say there could r:ot be less than five works, and that it is therefore idle to assume, as has been suggested in the press, that the bonus is being proposed for t he b enefit of the Lithgow or n,ny other single works. The advantages of bonuses have been somewhat discounted in the past owing to the fact that the system has, in many cases, been wrongly applied, and f ailure has resulted. In some instances a lump sum has been given for a lump quantity of goods, and

when the bonus has been earned the works have been abandoned. In New Zealand a bonus was offered for the production of 2,000 or 3,000 tons of paper . Three different persoos competed for the

bounty, when o;1e of them obtained it, the whole of the works suspended operations. l n this case, however, it is not to offer a lump sum, and the manufacturers will, at t he end, be at just

the same rate a,s

in Victoria. 2149. By fi£1·. Joseph Coolc.-In what way was the success of the tin plate industry in America so marked 1-- ·within three years the United States not only mn,de themselves independent of vVales by their supplies of tin plates, but actually exported tin plates to England.

2150. Are they doing that now ?--I do not know, but they 'vere doing so when I was there three years ago. The whole of the tin plates used in America were at one time made in W-ales, but the United States Government imposed a duty and offered a bounty, and before very long the tin plate worhs in the United States had overtaken the requirements of the local The same thing has taken place in

America in regard to silk manufacture. I do not mean to say that they grow silk in America, but the principal silk mills are situated at Paterson, New Jersey, have been able to monopolize the local market with the aid of the bounty offered. 2 l51. By Mr. P'uller.-Do you know that the duty upon tin plates im America had a very bad .effect upon the canning industries of that country ?-Some of the canning industries, particularly in

California, found the duties somewhat of a drawback. It was complained that the duty was too high, but the impost has since been reduced considerably, and the tin plate industry is still going as strongly as ever. A lthough, as I said before, bounties have fttiled through being wrongly applied in some they have proved immensely beneficial in many notable instances. Probably many people would not agree as to the beneficial results of the sugar bounty, but so far as we are concerned it has brought down the price of sugar from about £36 to £40 per ton, to £20 to £24 per ton.

2152. By lifr. Joseph Cook.-Do bounties or duties always have the effect of lowering prices?­ They raise them possibly in the first instance, but in the end they invariably reduce them. Probably the most serious obstacle in the way of the establishment of the iron industry in Australia iR the possi­ bility of serious labour troubles. Six years ago the iron masters of Great Britain were deterred by the likelihood of labour troubles from coming here to start iron works, and now matters have become very

much worse. Therefore, I am very much afraid that we shall not be able to start iron works here until labour matters have calmed down. 2153. By ;Jh·. Wcttson.-vVould not the Industrial Arbitration Act operate in the direction of reducing labour troubles ?-Perhaps it would.

2154. Ry JJ!r. Joseph Coo!c.-Are there more labour disputes here than in England ?-Oh, yes. 2155. Are you sure ?- Yes. 2156. I am not ?--If you count them by actual numbers, labour troubles here are perhaps not so numerous as in England, but proportionate] 5' there are more here than there. Strikes have been very largely reduced in England by the establishment of conciliation boards between the employers and the men, which seem to work very well. 2157. They have what are practically Arbitration Courts, except that the awards are not compul­ sory ?-No, they have a mutual agreement. 2158. By M1·. Watson.-You think our Industrial Arbitration Act would have the effect of reducing the feeling of unsettlement in connexion with labour matters ?--So long as we can rely on the Act to prevent strikes, there is no doubt that it will have a beneficial effect, and it may to some extent dispel the fears which now exist in the minds of manufacturers. No doubt there are many defects in the Act, but if its provisions against strikes are effective, they alone will justify its position on the statute-book. vV hat we desire is to encourage people to enter into new industries, and thus provide wo1_·k for the people. If industry is encouraged, wages will naturally take a higher level. \Ve find that m America the wages are higher than here, but under proper conditions there is nothing to prevent our wages scaJe from reaching the same high level as in the United States. There are, however, at present so many difficulties in regard to requests for shorter hours and increased pay and the exercise of more control by the workmen, that a number of people have been frightened to embark in industrial under­ takings. I should very much like to see iron works established here, because there is no· doubt that they would prove the backbone of many impor tant manufacturing enterprises. The very first thing in which the m< tnufacturer has to embark his money is machinery, which is composed principally of iron and steel, and I believe that if the subsidiary induHtries, which depend upon the manufacture of iron, were encouraged here by the supply of raw material at cheap rates, we might fairly reckon that within three years £900,000 worth of employment would be given. I have worked this out, and that is my confident

1533

107 Forsyth,

7th May, 1903.

feeling. This is th e reason I have been so long favorable to the establishment of iron works here by the aid of bounties, rath er than by mem1s of import duties. 2159. By ,l!?· . .Josrph Cook. - .How long would you continue the bounties ?- For eight years. 2160. And after t hat, what would you do?- I suppose tha.t if it were found necessary a small duty would have to be imposed.

2161. liy Fulle1·.-\oVhat would you call. a, ::;mall duty ?- Ten pe1· cent. on an article like iron would be sufficient, because there is a ma rked difference between th e cost oi ore here and iu America and England. Of cou rse, t here would not be much difference between the cost here and that in America but there would be a great difference between our fLgures and those of England. \ •Ve are o·oin<,. on fighting for free-trade or protection, whilst the United States, Canada, and the Aro·entine

are

leaving us all behind. In A ustralia we are 30 years behind either of these countri:s. 2162. By Jh. lJT atson.-You say t[mt you think that four or five iron works would be established the bounty were given. Do you mean iron works for co nverting ore into pig or working t he pig up

mto more complete manufactu res 'I-I think the works would include for convertino· the

pig into malleable iron and into steel; for wire drawing, hoop-iron making, ar1d other things of that kind. 2 163 . So that the fou r or five works you indicate would not necessarily be producing pig iron?­ No, t here would not be more t han two-probably only one-enga.ged in the manufacture of pig. 216 -L We are justified in assuming th1tt where the pig iron is made, there also the steel rails would be ma nufactured, becaui'le tho process is almost continuous from the production of pig to the making of steel rails 7- Yes.

216-iA. Then so far as t hose two items are concerned, you think there would not be more than two only one ?--Very I ikcly there will be only one worln; for some time.

2165. Therefore if any one said, as you have stc1.ted, that there was a possibility of the whole of the works fall in g into the hands of one set of individuals, tha,t statement would not he so very far out?­ It i very probable that f01· the few yem·s the work would be comfined to the making of pig iron and steel rails, because these articles could be turned out by the most direct and easy processes, but

eventually a desire would be created to convert the pig iron into mttlleable iron and other more highly manufactured forms, of which an immense quantity is used here. If one set of works were turning out pig iron and rail s, they would be able to sell iron to other firms. 2166. Unlesi'l they considered th y could more profitably employ all t heir raw material in making steel. Of course you know t hat the industry can only be carried oro on a large scale, and that it will

probably be found more profitable to conduct large worlcs than small ones?-Yes ; within certain limits. 2167 . Do you know the sizes of t he furnaces used in America ?-I cannot speak from memory. 2168. 'Ve are told that some of th e American furnaces are capable of turning out 700 tons of iron

within 24 hour. 7-They are, no doubt, very large, but it must be remembered that the operations carried on even by the gigantic Steel Trust are not co nducted in any one establishment. One of the companies included in the Steel Trust has three different works. In one of these they make pig iron for the pro­ duction of steel rails alone, whilst another works is engaged solely in making steel plates, and ·another

malleable iron plates. -

2169. Have you any special reason to offer why bonuses should be offered for the encouragement of the iron industry. I>o you assert that it is impossible to produce iron here under present conditions without some form of encouragement ?_I am quite sure of it. .

2170. And you thinK that this encouragement should take t he form of a bonus?-Yes, I do. 2171. Mr. bandford stated that he could produce iron at Lithgow at a cost of 35s. per ton. If that is so, do you still t hink that there is any justification for offering a bonus 7-I suppose that 35s. would include the bonus.

. 2172. No, that price has no reference to the bonus ?-I do not desire to contradict Mr. Sandford; but, at t he same time, I do not believe him. .

2173. Assuming that pig iron cou ld be produced for 35s. per ton, do not that there

would be a suffic ient inducement in t h e possibility of profit--when a comparison made with the cost of production in England and America-to cause capitalists to ente1· into the busmess Without the aid of a bonus 7-If you take it for granted that iron can be produced for _35 s. per ton w1thout any bonus, that should be sufficient to induce people -to enter into the industry here, If they are not afrmd of labour

troubles. . . _ . , . . .

2171. But assununcr t hat we are no off m recrard to labom troubles than ate other people. -Of course, if the of the Industrial Arbitration Act fulfilled, it will afford a great

safeguard. . .

2175. If iron could be produced h ere at 35s. per ton, you thwk there would be a sufficwnt inducement to capitalists to embark in iron works?-Yes. 1 am sure that If Mr. Sandford could_ pr·ove to th e satisfaction of the ironmasters in England that. they could _rro?uce Iron here at a cost of 3Ds. per ton, we should not be long without iron works; but I do not credit his statement. .

21 76. Of course, :\1r. Sandford says that he based his statement very largely upon the estimate of Mr. Enoch James, the English xpert, who was sent out here. This gentleman hLghly_thou gbt of that he was sent by the British iron masters to in_vestigate t he of m Al:lenca ?-It

may be so. I know it is stated that iron is produced 111 Cleveland, Ohw, at a cost of pet ton. 2177. The last estimate was 39s. 1 d. ?-Yes, but that does not mclude the capital charges. 2178. Nor does Mr. Sandford's estimate. He gives the bare cost of productwn, apart from interest on capital invflsted in the works 7-I understand. . . . . .

21 '"'/9 E •t· r z C k _You say that you estimate the Iron ore available m Austraha at . ,, . ..;osep n oo . . . . . . l 1 t t"t . b t . 1 1,200,000,000 tons 7-I say that we arc warranted m behenng that \\ e 1avc t 1a quan 1 y, u m t 1e meantime a safe estimate is 157,000,000 tons. . .

2180. ' Vhose estimate is that ?- The figures are compt!ed fr·orn a number of esttmates taken Mr. J aquet's report. Mr. J aquet in his statement includes of_ the depostt at the Clyde

but leaves out two deposits in Tasmania, namely, those on the lamar River and the coast.

Archibald ith i.003. 108

2181. The Government Geologist of Tasmania did not disregard those in the evidence which be ga,Ye before us ?-I have not seen t hat evidence. . :21 i:l2 . I want to know what warrant you ]1ave for increasing t he estimate of the quantity of ore avu,tbble from 157,000,000 to 1,:WO,O OO,OOO tons ?--I stated that the amount now estimated as available might safely be doubled, and that, in view of future discoveries, we might assume that we have perhaps 600,000,000 or 900,000,000 tons. I pointed to the case of the United States, which country had al_ready used a q\lantity gl'eater than was estimated to be available 42 years ago, whilst they have 650,000,000 tons in sight. No doubt in the course of fifteen or twenty years that estimate

Wlll be largely inci'eased. We know of 157,000,000 tons now, and that does not include the latest discoveries. They are finding fresh deposits of iron ore almost every day in Queensland and other States, although of course much of it would not be accessible for manufacturing purposes under p resent conditions. · 2183. Y,m said t hat in no country had the iron industry been established except with the aid of bounties ?-The only exception I know of is Sweden. .

2184. IV m·e there no iron works in Canada before bonu ses were offered ?-There were small iron works which were f>tarted under the encouragement of a protective duty, but they suspended operations and rcm rn ecl after the bounty was offered. Now, altogether, there are seven iron works in Canada. 2185. You say that the iron works suspended operations before the bounties were offered, but I would advise you to read yo ur history a little more closely . The Canad,ian Y ea1·-Book does not bear out your statement ?- I obtained my information frmu the Canadian gentleman who has been appointed to act as agent for that country in Melboume and Adelaide.

218 6. You stated that the English iron industry had been established with the aid of bounties whi ch amounted to seven or eight times what we propose to give?-Yes, more than that. _ :ll 13 7. I?rom what source do you get that information ?-One authority is a report published by the House of Commons, another a report published in t he Financial Riform Almancw, and a further report of which I cannot just now remember the title. I can, l1owever, furnish that later on. F or a long time the duty on iron in England was 45 per cent., and it was afterwards raised to 70 per cent.

The English people did not stick at half· measures when they undertook productive enterprises- t hey made sure that they would be effective. 2188. You are now speaking of duties and not bounties ?-No, but they had bounties as well. 218 9. By Mr. Fuller .-Did the bounty amount to seven or eight times the bonus .which has bee n proposed under the Bonus Rill '1-No, but t he duty and the bounty combined would represent more than that.

2190. ·what proportion would the bounty bear to the total protection given to t he indust ry?­ I could not tell you from memory, but I think that the bounty in England was about £7 per ton. 2191. By M1'. Josep h Cook.-When did that t ake place1-It is impossible for me to give you the date at present, but I will send you the particulars, including those contained in a book which I obtained from the Collector of Customs.

2192. You claim that the tin plate industry in America affords a triumphant example of the success of the bonus system ?-Yes ; it is one of the most notable examples of t he rapidity with which a beneficial chani:('e can be brought about. 2193. ·what was the result of the operation of the bonus in America ?-The resul t was t hat a number of tin plate works were started in America, and that a number of works in Wales were either closed or were compelled to reduce their output. The United States is now exporting t in plates to some

small extent. 2194. To what countries ?-England and France. 2195. Are you aware that America is still importing tin plates from vVales ?-I know that do import some plates of special kinds.

2196. Would you be surprised to learn that Mr. Thomas, who was interested in this very industry, told M L' . Sandford that all the kerosene tins that were sent to this country were made of Welsh tin ?-I do not believe him, and I am confident that I can prove to t he contrary. More t in plates a re used in making kerosene tins than the total quantity imported into America.

2197. Are you prepared to believe that the Welsh t in plate works were never so busy as at pre­ sent 1--I cannot say anything to the contrary. I know that the Americans started t heir own tin plate works, and that they have succeeded in supplying their own needs. They do still import certnin kinds of t in, but only to a limited extent.

2198. By J1h. Fullm·.-You tell us that the iron industry has not been established in any country except by means of a bounty or a protective duty ?-I n most cases by means of bounties and d ut ies combined. 2199. Are you aware that the iron industry was started in America without the aid of eit her a bonus or a protective duty ?-I am not aware of it. I am not absolutely sure, but I believe that before any duty was imposed or any iron works were started an agitation wns set on foot for the imposition of

duties, and that the answer given by the authorities was that they could not put -on duties before iron works were establishAd . 2200. Do you know from your reading of history whether any iron works were started in Am erica before the protective policy \'ias es tablished in that country, and without the aid of a bounty 1 -They htLd no bounty when the first works were started, and there was no p rotective duty, but t he

protection follow ed immediately upon the establishment of the works-during the same sesRion of Congl'ess. 2201. By JJh ·. J oseph Cook.-Are you aware that there were iron works in America as far back a s 1'770 ?-I think it was about that time that they were establi shed . We have started works at :Lithgow, but they haYe been suspended, and t hey niay become operati,·e again wh en a bonu s is offered.

2202. You believe that a bounty should be given for a period of not less than eight years '1-Yes I t hink that that is the very least period that could be fix ed.

109

1535

Ar<:hibald Forsyt h, ith 1903.

2203. How long ago is .it since the. boun Ly was established iu CanadtL ?-I could not tell you, ns I am not sure, but when I was m Canad-a s1xtcen years ago they had no although the matter

was being very generally spoken of. 2:20±. I would recommend you to read the Canadian Yea1·-JJook, b ecause your impeession is quite wrong. H as it not been the universal experience that wherever bonuses have been offe red there has always b een an outcry for their continuation at the expiration of the period fir.;t fixed 1-Man v bon us es have

resulted in failure owing to their misapplication. It is vel'y often the ca.s"J tlmt a of the

bounty is ask ed for, and if the bounty operates to keep an industry going, it is money well spent, because all income is derived from production. 2205. Do you know what quantity of iron would be necessary to supply the r equir·ements of the Commonwealth could not answer that, because everything will depend upon the extent to which the iron manufacturing industry is developed in om· midst;. I should t hink that, within the firs t three . years, we should ·be able to produce a.ll we require in the way of rolled or drawn iron, our consumption in

that direction amounting to 150,000 .or 160,000 tons per· annum. 2206 . Supposing we reach the stage of meeting all the r equirements of the Commonwealth, do you think we should b e able to compete with the rest of the world ?--I do not think we should be able to carry on an export trade against out.side competition, except to adjacent places such as the Pacific I slands.

2207. Then, in order to keep the works going after the expiration of the bounty period· in eight years, it would be n ecessary to impose tL heavy protective duty 7- I think lo per cent. would besufllc ient. 220 8. So that what is now suggested is not merely the offering of a bonus, hut a bonus which it i,; contemplated will be followed by a protective duty required to keep the works going?-Yes, I am of that opinion .

220 9. By 1 111·. Watkins.-You say that at the present t ime there is a disinclination on the part of capitalists to invest their money in thi::; State owing to the prospect of labour troubles ?-That is what I was told when I was in England.

2210. Have you heard recently that

looking after its own interests-just as capable as is labour. 2212. So that all the trouble does not arise from the htbour side ?--Perhaps not. 2213. With regard to the export trade, do you think that we could compete with America or Enghmd in the markets of the East7-I do not know.

2214. The shorter distances over which our product would have to be carried t o the markets would be in our favour'!--Yes ; but freights from England to China are lower than from here to China. 2215. Then how do you explain the fact that we can compet e with British coal in the Eastern markets ?- Because not only is the coal cheaper, but special freights for coal from h ere to th e East are cheaper than those from Engbnd.

2216 . Speaking generally, if we could produce iron at per t on, which is lower tba.n the cost of production in E ngland, would not that counterbalance to ;;ome ex tent the difference in the freights?­ Yes, if those who produced the iron would sell at cost price ; but we cannot assume that they would. However, I do not agree with Mr. Sandford's estimate, and I think I ;;hall be Ltble to disprove it.

( Tctken ctt S:\TURDAY, 16m MAY, 1903. Commissioners present: · Mr. Fuller, Mr. vVatson.

Mr. Watkins, Mr. WATSON was called to the Ch>tir jJ1'0 tmn.

Robert Morison (Messrs. Morison and Bearby, Engineers, Ironfounders, and Boil ermakers, New castle), sworn and examined. 2217. B y loh. Watson .- vVhat would be t he effect upon a business yours of the es tablish­ ment in Australia of works for the production of iron from native put tmg a:'nde for the moment any

question of bonus or duty '!--It would be an advantage to us in t h1s res pect-tha-t we co uld obtam. the different sizes of boiler plates and bar iron more readily than at present. '\Ve have t o mdent our 1ron now, and t here is consequently some delay in getting our fill ed. . .

2218. Does the fact that you have to import bmler pl ates and bar 1ron reqmre you to keep a lar O'er stock of iron on hand than you would otherwise keep ?-:-- 'We . have t o keep a heavy stock ?f boiler plates, angle iron, rolled joists, and material .of tl:at . kmd on hand m . order t o prevent m carrying out our orders. We can get the smaller sizes m the .and Pyrmont mills;

b ut t hey do not roll large boiler plates in the S t ate, and slups plates have m vanably to be 1ndented. If we could purchase our supplies here instead of abroad? we co uld execute ou r work w1th 2219. Do you find the E skbank i1·on work s at Lithgow and Brown, and Brown's 1mll at Py.rmont of advantage to you in your business?-Yes. :ve often give t her.n large orders for .the stzes of

iron, but they do not make boiler· plates and reqmrements of that kmd. All p:g Iron 1s mdentcd. 2220. Would it be of as much ttdvantage to you to be able to procure pig Iron locall y as to be able to procure all the plate and bar iron you require locally. Is it as great a clisad:·antage to. you to have to keep stocks of pig iron

Uobc!'o Morison, 16th 1903. 110

2221. What are the charges for indenting pig iron, including freight, insurance, and from 17s. 6d. to 21s. per ton. '.l'he rate varies according to the demand for a ship. Some­

a vessel is coming to Australia with a very light cargo, and then her owners are willing to take

p1g-u·on at a very low rate as ballast. 2222. Do you usually import your pig iron from Great Britain ?-Invariably. vVe prefer a Scotch brand. A few lines of very fair iron have been imported from the United States, but not lately. 2223. Where do you get your plate, bar, and angle iron is indented, generally from Scotch makers, but some of it comes from Sheffield.

2224. It all comes from Great Britain-none of it from America 7-It all comes from Great Britain. 2225. It is proposed that a bonus of 12s. 6d. a ton shall be granted to local manufacturers of pig iron, and a further bonus of 12s. 6d. a ton for all steel manufactured from iron produced from the local ore. What is your opinion on the subject ?-I should be in favour of giving a bonus for a time.

2226. Do you think there is any likelihood of the iron industry being started in Australia without the help of a bonus ?-I have, with others, been interested on two or three occasions in a project of the kind, but invariably our planH have fallen through, more or less because we have not been 'able to obtain sufficient data to justify the establishment of large works. Houghly speaking, about £200,000 would be

required to establish large i1·on works. I have had consultations with persons who are experts, and they h:we no hesitation in that good iron and steel can be produced from our ore, but they think that a bonus 'should be given to assist the establishment of the industry. The initial expense of establishing ironworks here would be very heavy, because of the competition of manufacturers in Great Britain and America who have large and modern plants alr·eady at work, an d whose workmen have had long experi­ ence. In the experimental stages of an industry there is more expense incurred than is afterwards found necessary to maintain it..

. 2227. Were the projects with which you were concerned connected with the opening up of iron deposits in the Newcastle district or in some other district 7-They were connected with deposits in the Northern district. There are large deposits near Port Stephens, near Dun gog, on the Williams R.iver, and in the Singleton district. 1\fany years ago, when the Fitzroy works at Mittagong were going, they were able to obtain locally some of the richest and most valuable ore to be found anywhere--ore that was exceptionally suitable for the production of bar iron, and iron required for machinery.

2228. Accompanying the suggestion for a bonus, it is provided in Division VIA. of t he Tariff that the Exec uti ,;e may proclaim the imposition of a duty of i 0 per cent. upon pig, plate, and bar iron whenever the iron industry is in their opiuion sufficiently established. Do you think that the imposition of such a duty would increase the price of iron by 10 per cent., and, if so, would such an increase of price injure a business such as yours to any extenU-For a time it would injure us more or less, but, on the other hand, we should have the advantage of being able to obtain our supplies of plates and the larger sizes of iron more quickly than we can obtain them now. Furthermore, the establishment of iron works would bring about a larger consumption of coal, and this would give more work to the collieries, and create a ·general improvement of tra.de.

2229. Can you say what you could afford to pay for these advantages. vVould they be worth to you an increase of 5 or l 0 per cent. upon the present price of iron?-I should say that they would be worth an increase of about 5 per cent. We should not have to carry so large a stock, and our outlay would consequently be smaller. I think, however, that if a bonus were given, a duty should not be imposed until the bonus had expired. Of course, local manufacturers would be at an advantage over foreign manufacturers in respect to freight and other charges connected with their importations.

2230. Two of the gentlemen who have indicated their willingness to establish ironworks in Australia under certain conditions have informed the Commission that if a sufficiently high duty were placed upon importations of iron, they would not require a bonus. One of them stated that he could do without a bonus if a duty of 12t per cent. were imposed, while another was prepared to start without a bopus if a duty of 10 per cent. were imposed upon English iron, and a duty of 20 per cent. upon foreign iron. What is your opinion upon the subject ?-Although the imposition of a duty might make imported iron a little dearer to engineers, iron founders, and others in the tr!tde, I think that they would eventually

reap a corresponding benefit from the general improvement of business. 22:31. By Jh. Fnller.-How do you arrive at the conclusion that the advantages you have spoken of as likely to follow the establishment o4' local ironworks would make it worth your while to pay 5 per cent. more for imported iron ?-One of the ad vantages we should get would be that we should not need to carry such heavy stocks. ·where we now have to keep 100 tons of imported iron on hand, it would probably be necessary to keep not more than, say, 25 tons on hand. Therefore there would be a saving of interest. We should not have so much capital lying idle.

2232. What delay is there in importing iron from England ?-Occasionally, when special lines are wanted for machinery, angle iron, or boiler plates, delay is caused by our having to indent our requirements. 2233. How long does it take you to get an order filled from England ?-Four or five months sometimes, because we often have to send written specifications. We cannot always cable for what we want.

2234. If there were local ironworks, how soon could your orders be filled by them 7-I should think within a month. The time would depend upon the number of orders they had to attend to. 2235. How many ironworks do you think would be established in Australia if a bonus were given for the production of iron from native ore 1-I do not knqw, but probably not more than two.

2236. Do you know how much iron is consumed annually throughout the Commonwealth 1-No. 2237. Then why do you estim ate that only two ironworxs would be established think that ironworks would be established in the Southern district, where there is any quantity of ore, and that other works would be established ill the Northern district. I believe it is estimated that from 120,000 to 150,000 tons of iron of ·all sizes are annually imported into the Commonwealth. '

Do you know what an up-to-date iron furnace can turn out ?-That would depend very

much upon its size. I dare say one furnace would turn out from 40 to 50 tons a day,

111

1537

Robert Morisou, 16th :llay, 1903.

· _ 2:339. 'vVe have it in ev idence that one fumace will often t uru out from700 to 1,000 tons a day. ?'ou ev1dently do not know very mu ch about the subJ ect 1-I have not gone much into the production of IrOn. 22l0. How large are the orders which you seud to the Lithgow rmd Pynnont worb suppose

t hey antount to about 50 tons a year. \Ve1mport most of the iron we usc. Vle use about 150 tons of bar and plate iron, and from 300 to 400 tons of pig iron. 2:241. H ow long do you think a bonus, if given, should be in force7-About ten years. 2242. 'vVhy do you Jix tho period at ten years would ta,ke a considerable time to establish

and perfect the plant, and to t rain the men employed in the worh. The training of the employes is a Ycry important matter. 2243 . Cou ld not they be trained wit hout the granting of a bonus 'I--Yes, but you have to pay more for· labour here.

2:34-±. How docs the gran ting of bonuses reduce the price of labour ?-\Vhere manufacturers are paid bonuses, they are able to pay more for their labour, and until the men become expert, they cost more than w11l cost ctfte r they leamed theit· They may, f01· example,

produce 100 tom; of Iron a day to start w1th, but after a few years they nught be able to produce 200 tons in the same t ime. :22 -! 5. Are you of opinion t.ha t iron works cannot be established in A ustralia without t he pay­ ment of a bonus 1--\V ell , hitherto they have al\v;1,ys f

to£-! 17 s. a ton landed here, but a few years ago we co uld get it for from £3 lOs. to .£4 a ton. Of

co urse, you cannot rely upon t he pre. ent prices being maintained, and t herefore capitalists hesitate about embarking on the establishment of large ironworks. 22-!G . Do you think that at t he end. of t en years local ironworks could carry on without a bonus a nd without a duty think so. That shou ld be possible. They wuu lu then have their plaut and

furnaces, and everything else in prop I ' work1ng order. 22-!7 . Then why are you in favour of the imposition of a duty after the bonuses h

2248. 'vVhat would be the need for a duty if the industry could stand by itself ?-The duty would not be necessary if the industry could be carried on successfully without it. But I think that to give t hose engaged in it further assistance, a small duty might be impo"ed fo r, say, another ten years after the bonuses had ceased to be given. Of course, the advisability of imposing a duty would depend

upon the price of iron in Great Britain and t he United States. 22-!9. \ Vhat is the extent of t he deposits of iron ore near Dungog 7-I belieYe that they are very extensive, but that the iron is not very rich. I am not prepared t o speak definitely about them, though I have seen specimens of the o1·e.

225 0. Have you seen the deposits 1-·No. 2251. H ave you read a report upon them 7- Yes. Some year s ago two reports were made by experts who examined the dist rict. One of t hem was a gentleman who came from England, and who lectured in the School of Arts at Newcastle.

:2252 . You have n o idea of t he extent of the deposits was reported that they covered a

mil e or two, but I have no uefinite information. At Port Steph ns the deposits are very rich. Only a few weeks ago a party who is interested in them sen t an expert there, and he reported that the lode w_as about 7 feet wid e on one side of a mountain, and that it was quite visible upon the other s1de, a m1le and a half away.

2253. B y Jh. Wat/cins.- H aYe you ever smelted any of the ore you speak about?-\Ve smelted some ore from the Dungog district. _

2254. Did it produce good iron ?-\Ve put about half a ton of iron stone mto our fumace, and made iron from it, but the experiment \Vas not carried out under coiDn:ercial . "

2255. How does the price of locally rolled iron compare w1th th_at of u·on ?-Ihe

imported iron is cheaper t han the local iron . \Ve can got only the SIDaller stze_ s of 1ron lo_cally: _ . 2256 . \Vould you be prepared to embark capital in the iron industry m A ustraha without the assistance of a bonus or the protection of a duty?- No; I should not care to enter Into suuh a specula­ tion. 'vVhen prices are high in Great Britain, the local industry might be successful , but when they fell the local manufacturers co uld not make a profit. .

2257. You appear to think that the diflieulties of establish ing iron,,·orks are greatest m the initial stages ?-Yes. · _ .

2258. Once ironworks were established with modern machmery, such

225 9. If it has been stated that iron can be produced 111 Austmha fur 3Ds. a ton, do you take that to mean that it could be produced at t hat price after t he thorough establishment of ironworks, or from the very beginning 7-I think that little iron could be produced locally for 3Ds. a ton. I have come into contact with individuals who say that they have produced 1ron for less than that, but it was sin]ply as an experiment. I do not think that iron co uld be produced commercmll y at so small a cost.

2260. I s there any truth in the statement th"t previously,, when were being made to

produce iron from local 01:e, t he manufacturers. of _ America and Great flooded our markets 7-'vVhen we were producing iron in the Fitzroy d1stnut, p1g 1ron cost about :fi< a ton; but afterwards 1t fell to about J? 'l l Os. a ton, and that caused the ':'orks to be closed. _ . . ,

226 1. H ow do the wages paid Ly the u·on-workcrs here compare the wages E 11 g]and, and America ?-The wages we pay :tre from 30 to -!0 per cont. h1gher than those pmd m Great Britain.

H0bert 1\Iorj son , lUth Ma"', 1003. lli

2262. Do you think that a similar difference will obtain in r e>pect to wages paid to employes engaged in the production of iron ?-I t hink so. 2263. By Jlfr. IVhat experience have you had in connexion with the production of iron from the ore ?-None.

2264. You have already admitted that you do not know how much iron an up-to- elate furnace can turn out. IVhat justification have you then for contradicting the statement of an experienced man like I\'fr. Sandford, that iron can be produced in A ustralia for 35s. a ton ?-My opinion is based upon calculation s which I have seen, made by persons of practical experience, who have gone thoroughly into such questions as the cost lLnd accessibility of the iron, coal, and limest one deposits, t he rate of \vagcr;, ltnd the amount of the consumption o'f iron.

2265. Hov>' long ago is it since those calculations were made ? -Five or six yem·s . We k now that., approximately, three tons of coal are used in producing one ton of iron ; therefore, the possibility of pro­ ducing cheap iron depends very much upon the proximity of tho coal and iron ore deposits. 2266. vVho are the gentlemen who made the cctlculation to which you refer ?-One of them was a JYI r. Dauncey, an expert in the iron trade, who had been right through every branch of the industry in

the old country. I believe that he was working in connexion with Mr. l\fitchell in the Southern district. 2267. You have seen his reports?-Yes, and I have often had conversations with him. 2268. But personally you have had no experience in the production of iron ?-Only experi­ mentally.

2269. By M1·. Watson.-As a consumer of iron, and a secondary worker in it, you would like to see the iron industry established in Australia; because, apart from the advantages which might thus accrue to the Commonwealth, you think it would ttssist you and others engetged in the same Y es.

2270. And you are willing to make a small sacrifice to obtain that advantage ·J--Yes. 2271. By Ah. F1lller.-You are willing to pay a little more for the iron you use ?-Yes; because I think we should be compensated by an improvement in 227 2. By Mr. Watkins.----,Do you know if l\'I r. Sandford has ever smelted native ore ?-I am not sure, though I know that iron ore has been smelted at Lithgow.

2273. If he has not smelted the native ore himself, his assertion that iron can be produced at for 35s. a ton is based only upon cl'dculations such as those you have referred to 1---Yes.

As a citizen I think that the establishment 0f the i1·on industry in Australitt would be advantageous in every sense. 227 4. And you do not think that it would affect the price of iron considerably ?-No.

;James Stewart Rodgers, retired engineer and ironfounder, sworn and examined.

2275. By JWr. Watson.-Have you been in business in Newcastle until recently?-Yes; until about five years ago. 2276. What are your views upon the proposal that bonuses shall be given for the establishment of the iron industry ?-I do not think there can be two opinions as to whether it is advisable or not to e!ltablish works for the production of iron in local ores ; but whether iron ore can be produced commerci­ ally under existing circumstances is a subject upon which we cannot very well come to a definite conclusion yet, because hitherto the efforts to manufacture iron from the native ores have been only experimental, so that we have not sufficient reliable information. But there can be no doubt that good iron can be obtained from the native ores. Thirty years ago I was using iron turned out by the Fitzroy ironworks, and I do not think I ever had a stronger iron in my yard. I believe we paid £4 1 Os. a ton fo r it. I do not know if tha-t iron was produced at a profit, though it is probable ·that it was not,

because the works were soon closed. I have produced iron from the Port Stephens ore. '

2277. Experimentally?-Yes; we smelted about ten tons of ore. Messrs. Breckenridge and vVatson took up land in the Port Stephens district, and spent about £3,500 in developing their property and obtaining ore. vVe smelted some of the ore in Newcastle, using oyster shells for flux, and obtained lL hard brittle iron. The ore gave a yield of about 20 per cent. of iron. Mr. David Scott, who was

afterwards a member of the State Legislature, and who is now foreman of the Fitzroy foundry, was my foreman at the time, and he has the records of that experiment. I have here- [produced]-a small blLr of the iron. Several of the samples were polished and sent home, at the instlLnce of the gentleman 1 have named. The iron polishes beautifully, and is almost a semi-steel. IN e neither calcined, roasted, nor did anything to the ore but cast it into the furnace, and it ran almost as nicely as pig iron would have done. The Mittagong and Rylstone ore is, I believe, of even a better quality. I believe that if our ores were regularly treated, a process of softening the iron would easily be found, because. what is a difficully in the early stages of an indust.ry is often easily solved later on. If that were done, a good nmrketable iron could be produced from our ores.

2278. Can you give the Commission any information as to the commercial prospects of an iron industry in Australia ?- Most persons who are interested in the iron trade have given some consideration to that subject. In my opinion the granting of bonuses fo r the encouragement of tho establishment of the iron industry here would be justifiable. B ut it is difficult to say before complete tests 'have been made what the rate of the bonus should be. I do not think that any company would enter upon the enterprise wit hout submitting the iron ore to be found in various localities to very complete tests.

2279. The geological survey offices of the various States have obtained analysis and assays of their ores, and the information thus collected is being collat ed. Will that information be sufficient, or do you refer to the need of a test under commercilLl conditions ?-- The test I refer to is not a mere laboratory or experimental one, but a test of a larger nature. INhereve1· we hlLve ironstone, coal, and limestone in proximity, a test should be made to discover if iron can be p r·ofitably mlLnufactured t her e.

For that purpose a portable furnace might be used. It would, for example, be of no use to bring

1539

113 James stewart ltodgers, 16th May, I 903.

Mittagong or Rylstone ore to Newcastle to be smelted. In my opinion, the expenditure of a fl3w thousand pounds upon local. tests would be justifiable, wh ether t h e State or private enterprise is ultimately to upon t he mdustry. If these tests are not made by the State, they will have to be made by any

pn vate company that is thinking of starting. I t hink it is the expense t hat fri<,.htens people from endeavouring to start the iron industry here, and t he uncertainty as to whether iro; can be manufac­ tured locally at a price at which the manufacturers can compete with those of other co untries. A bonus to the industry would prove a justifiable encouragement. Every t axpayer has to contribute towards

whatever bonuses are granted. Bonuses are not like duties. They do not come wholly out of the pockets of those who use the commodity in respect to which they fU'e granted. As an ironfounder, I contend t hat I should be allowed to buy pig iron as cheaply as I can. It is my raw material, and I must buy it at the cheapest rate. For national and patriotic reasons, we should all like to encourage the establish­

ment of an iron industry in A ustralia . But, of course, it may happen that that can be done only at too great an expense . If iron cannot be profitably p roduced here with a bonus, I am afraid t hat we should have to wait for another generation to un dertake the ind ust.ry, when some cheaper processes of manufac­ ture h ave been found out.

2280. Are you still in business 1- No; my sons manage the business. 2281. What would be the extent of the advantage which an ironfounder would have if he co uld obtain la rge plates a nd large sizes of angle and bar iron locally. H ow much more per cent. could he afford to pay for it '1--- With stocks of raw material always in t he local market, ironfounders could carry out contracts which othe t· wise they would not tackle because of the delay in obtaining their requirements

from abroad. Shortly before I retired from business, our firm took a contract for t he construction of a steel punt, which we were bound by penaltie to delive r before a ce rta.in date. Various causes, however, prevented t he iron which we required from coming forward in time, and therefore we were late in delivering the punt, and were fined, so that .. e lost on t he undertaking.

22 2. Could you afford to pay 5 per cent. more for t he iron you use, in order to sec ure the

advantage of being able to dmw upon local stocks ?-It is difHcult to say how m uch more we could afford t o pay for our raw material, t hough it wo uld certainly be of advantage to be able to obtain it locally whenever we wanted it. 2283. Some of those who are interested in the establishment of an i r·on industry in A ustralia contend that it could be established without bonuses if a duty of 10 or per cent. were placed upon

pig iron and pla te, bar, and angle iron. Do you think it would be worth your while as an ironfounder to pay that a mount of duty upon your requirements in order to obtain the esta.blishment of a local iron industry '1---No. I do not favour t he imposition of a duty, becau se it is necessary for ironfounders to obtain their raw material as cheaply as possible. In New South W ales a great deal of ironwork is done

in connexion with t he repairing of ships, and we can generally get what we require from abroad by steamers within 40 days, so that unless the completion of the business is urgent, we can afford to wait. Of course, if we could obtain th e larger sizes of iron locally, it would be of great advantage to us, and that advantage would be some set-off against the duty.

2284. But you have not estimated how much it would be worth t o you 7-No; I do not know h ow such an estimate could be arrived at. 2285. If bonuses were given, or duties imposed, how many ironworks co uld be est

t he Commonwealth, something further may be don e. The people of . t his district are as enterpnsmg .as those in any other part of the Commonwealth, when t hey see t hat money can be made by a ny com mercial undertaking. . .

2286. Mr. Sandford has said that iron co uld be manufactured at Lithgow for 35s. a t on, wluch would mean about 45s. a ton in Sydney. Do you not think that t he iron industry wo uld have every prospect of success, even without a bonus, if it could produce iron at as low a cost as that 1- I do not think that Mr. Sandford would tackle t he work unless he received assistance from the State.

2287. By Jfr. you wish to be able to buy your raw material at the cheapest

rate possible 1-Y es. . . . .

2288. The last witness said t hat he was prepar ed to pil.y more for his raw to

gi ve the iron industry a start. You take a different view 7-Yes, I could not vote for the uuposit iOn of a duty upon iron. ·

2289 . But you are in favour of the granting of bon uses 7-Yes. 2290. Do you know what quantity of iron is annually used in the Commonwealth ?- I could not t ell you from memory. . . . . . .

1

. •

229 1. Have you any Idea what an up-to-date f urnace will t um out m a day .- I should th mk that t hat would depend upon its capacity. I sh ou ld think t hat a large furnace wo uld t urn out a bout 100 tons a day. . ,., .

229 2. Then it will be news to you to learn that from t OO to 1,000 tons a rl a:v 111 many turned out by one furnace. Practically you know nothing a.bout the of Iron 7-No; that IS

not my business. I have been an ironfounder, not a of uon. . . .

2293. For how long do you t hink bonuses should be given 7-0nly for periOd suffi01ently long to give the industry a star t. The bonuses not be I would gt ve a for the produc­

t ion of a certain quan tity of iron, and if It was found t hat th e mdustry could not .contmue without the assistance of a bonus, or without some other form of State a1cl , I would say that It was not a natural industry. 2294. H ave you form ed an opinion as to whether the iron industry will prove to be a natural

industry I have not made up my mind upon the . .

2295. Do you think that after bonuses bad been gtven for some time Iron could be produced here at prices which wo uld enable it to compete with t lt e production of England. a nd ?-The bo nuses would have to be suffic iently high to equal the charges now made upon the Imported article. -" F .l050l l

James Stewart Rodgers, 16th May, 1903. 114

2296. Then you think there would be no hope of locally-made iron competing with other iron in th e markets of the world ?- I 11m afraid not, when the bonuses were gone. 2297. It wou ld be only in AuRt ralia that the locall y-made iron would be used ? -The locally-made iron would have to com mand t he Aust ralian t rade.

2298. You are not in favour of the i mposition of a du ty. H ow, t hen, would you cause th e locally-made iron to comm and t he 1\ ustralian trade ?-It must be of such n character, and produced under such conditions that it will do so naturally. It would have to be equal in quality to any imported iron, and conditions would have to be fa voumble to the manufacturer of it at a profit. The difference

between the rate of wages here a nd abroad would have to be compensated for by the saving in charges, commissions, and freights, and other expenses. 2299. You said just now that it might be n ecesssry to wait for another generation to un dertake the enterprise. ·what did you mean by that 1-Jt is possi ble that the enterprise cannot be undertaken until we have another million of peopl e here, and a larger consumption of iron.

2300. You do not think the present consumption of iron is suffici ent to warrant the establishment of large works here 7-I a m af raid not. 2301. And you think it hopeless to attempt to compete in t he markets of t he world ?-If we cannot compete against other manufadurers in the production of iron, we must t ry our hand at some­ thing else.

2302. By Jh. Watkins.-Have you eYer considered t he possibility of supplying the Eastern markets with iron from Australia ?- I do not t hink t here is any chan ce of t hat. 2303. Would not freights from here to the East be lower than freights from England to the East 1 - I do not t hink so. V essels on a round voyage often take out pig-iron as ballast. It is often brought

here at very low rates in vessels that require st-iffening . 2304. Coal is se nt from A ustralia to the East?- Y es, but a t a pretty low fi gure. 2305. Although a mcdern furnace may produce as much as 700 tons of iron a day, it would be to ha ve every modern appliance with a much smaller output ?-Yes, of course. The modernity of

a fu rnace wo uld depend upon the of treatment for which it was fitted. 2306. · By JJ!r. Fuller .- ·Co uld a furnace t urning out 10 tons a day compete with one turning out 700 tons a day ?-No ; the larger the production the less the cost per ton. That is a settled fact which every one understands.

2307. JJy J1h. Watson.-You think that it is worth while for the com munity to make some sacrifice to get this industry estctblished ?- -Yes. 2308. And you prefer a bonus to a duty?-Yes. B ut, if after an industry has been started by means of a bon us it cannot continue without one, it is not a natural industry.

2309. By N1·. lVcttkins.-You cannot say for how long a period bonuses should be given ?-No.

(Taken at M elbourne.)

MONDAY, l sT JUNE, 1903.

Commissioners P1·esent: The Right H on. C.

Sir Edward B mddon: .i\!fr. \Vinter CookP, Mr. L. E. Groom,

C. KINGSTON, Chairman.

Mr. Kirwan, Mr. Mauger .

Herbert Frederick Cyril Keats, sworri and examined. 231 0. B y the Ch ctinnan.- What are you ?--I ai11 a broker. 3311. Where do you live 1-In Melbourne- at. the Australi an Club at present. 231 2. H ave you had under consideration the question of establishm ent of ironworks in Aust mlia? -Yes, I have beea home for t wo years trying t o raise the capital for the Blythe River Ironworks.

2313. By Mr-. L. E . G1 ·oom. - Prior to setting out for the old country, I suppose you inspect ed the pr operties in Au stralia ?- Y cs, I have been over them several times, and we had an expert to examine the properties, and on his repo rt I went to several capitalists in England and endeaYoured to raise the monev.

• 231-i. Y ou understand t he provisions of the .Bill with regard to which this Commission is inquiring ?- Y es, I do. 2315. There arc practica lly dual proposals-·first of all t o grant a bonus for the manufacture of a quantity of iron, and then under the Customs Act it is contemplated that at some future t ime the

bon us wi.ll cease nn d duties becom e operative. Did you put that specific proposal before capitalist s in the old country ?-Y es ; of co urse the bonus is very good, but they more in fa1·our of a duty than a bonus, because the t wo are no t concurrent. If they were concurrent, of course the bonus would be very good indeed, bu t I had all t he capital promised for a 15 per cent. duty.

2316. ·without the bonus being considered at all ?- vVe left the bonus out of consideration altogether, because, the bl·o not being concurrent, i t com es to about the same thing if the bonus comes and the duty afterwa rd s.

2317. You said a d uty of 15 per cent. ?-Yes; that is what was proposed roughly at first. Afterwards it was redu ced a little, and comes to about 12 .; per cent. 2318. Can you tell us what was the date upon w.hich you left for home-before the Tariff was laid upon t he tabl e of the House of Representatives?- Y es, I went home before t hen, but I was home on som e ot hr r business befo re I started on the B lythe RiY er business. I was horr: e more than two years altogether. I went t o England in October, 1890.

115

1541

H. F. 0. Keats, l st J nne, 1903.

23 19. You placed before the capitali sts the question of the duty fi rst of all?-Y es . 2320. Afterwards did you place before them the dual proposals as placed before the H ouse of Yes ; I placed them. Every proposal that was made here was cttbled Home to me in

El'lgland. 2320A. What prospect was there of raising the necessary capital on the bonus proposals only?­ On the bonus proposals without a duty there was n o prospect at all. They gave me no encouragement whatever.

232 1. I s that your opinion of t he prospect s of a bonus without a duty think no larae wo rks could be started in that way. There is too much risk. You can put down on paper the price which you can produce iron and steel here, but it does not work out in the same way, because to produce iron and steel at the cheapest rate you have years of work before you have your works and everything

organized. 2322. \ Vhat was the amount of capital you stated t hat you would require to properly develop the Blythe mines ?- Over a million of money-about £ 1,100,000. 2323. That is the amount you say you could have raised on t he duty Y es. _

2324. Supposing the duty was fi xed at per cen t.?- That would mean fresh n egotiations. 2325. Do you think there wo ul d be any prospect of getting the capital with that duty is so close to 15 per cent. that there must be some p rospect, but it is not a certainty. 2326. I suppose you were only co ncerned with the necessary capital, and did not go

into the question of the cost of production but we had reports on tha t.

2327 . You acted on the expert reports of Mr. Darby and others 2328. W ere you only concerned with the Blythe R iver deposits in Tasmania is all. 2329. You know that t here are steel wo rks at Parramatta in New South Yes.

2330. It is your opinion, then, that if you had the bonus only there is no p rospect of the necessary capital being obtained ?-I am sure that no large capital would be invested. You may posgibly get works of small dimensions for making pig, but not l11,rge works, unless, of co urse, the bonus is a very large one. A bonus of £ 250,000 is of no use.

233 1. By Mr. Jlfauge?·.- Do you know anything about ironworks in Canada ?-Only from what I have read. I have had no personal experience. In Canada they give a large bonus, and I see that now they are putting on a 7 -dollar d uty-that is equal to 30 per cent.-on rails in addition to the bonus. 2332. There was no duty previously on rails think rails went in free previously to this,

but there was a big bonus given. 2333. What was the duty on ordinary iron ?-There is an average duty of 25 per cent. in addition to the bonus. 2334. You speak of a per cent. duty; how would that affect the consumers of iron-t.he iron manufacturers 'I---I do not think it would affect them at all- not disadvantageously . W e want to sell our stuff, and we shall have to sell it to the consumers of iron. Our great object will be to keep our

works going, and the duty is really only put on to prevent us being knocked out in times of at H ome. That is what we are frightened of, because, if t hese works are shut down, and we arc Clu p;o, ing 3,000 or 4,000 skilled men, it is a serious watter. You have to keep them constantly empJ , y(•d whether your works are paying or not, unless you shut do wn altogether.

2335. The duty on machinery is per does not matter much t o ns. .

2336. But your manufactured article is the ma,nufactured article of the makers of machmery, and if there could be an assurance that their raw material would not be enhanced in cost, it would go a long way to remove many difficulties. Do you know how this duty would affect t he cost to the consumer do not see how it wo uld enhance the cost, except in t imes of depression at Home, and then

it certainly would. 233 7. I take it that what you mean by that is that it would prevent the cost being- unduly reduced in times of depression ?-Y es. 2338. Have you seen Mr. Sandford's I have read it.

2339. Did you note the statement he made as t o the cost of the production o£ iron ?-

Yes.

2340. In view of the co mparatively low cost, on what ground is a bonus needed ?- I do n?t thillk that Mr. Sandford could make iron at that price unless he was certain that he . could . keep worl,s going entirely. If you have large works, the employment must be more or less mterm1ttent If that is t he case, you cannot produce at that low price. If you could sell everythmg as yo u t urne_d It out

from very large works, you could get down to a very low price. But then you co uld not turn Iron out as cheaply as is done in America, where one works treats 17,000,000 tons a year. H ere we cannot expect to turn out 2 per cent. o£ that quantity, the amount our proposed work would treat at the same price, and then we sh ould not be certain of om· market. . . .

234 1. Do you think there is room for more than one iron works m _Au stralia 'I---Y es ; If we had our works established, they would be practically steel-works, because_ ou r sUJtabl c for the manu-facture of steel. But there could be other works to produce foundry Iron. . .

2342. H ave you given any consideration to the question of the Govemment domg th1s wo rk ?­ I do not think t he Government could make a success of it. I have seen t he proposal. 2343. Did you know anything of the Japanese ?-I _know _they are a fail ure. They have had to find more capital three times, and they are n ow m rhffic ul t1es agam. .

2344. By jJfr. L . E . G1·oom.-Have you seen anythmg as to ho"' they a 1 e gettm g o,·e r the trouble in Japan-th e State guaranteeing the capital, and pr:,·ate manage1 :1ent ?-l ha_ v<> 'ern something about it in the paper s. They are trying to make 1t a half 8tate and h

2345. By Mr. _ilfatbgeT. - Do you think there is any possJbihty of these Ironworks bemg estab-lished in Australia without a bonus or a duty ?-None whateYer, for many yea1 s to come. 2346 . What would you call many years ?-If the country goes ahead and has a large population the works would start, but they will not now.

I 2

U. 1<'. C. Keats, 1st June, 1903. 116

2347. Would there be any possibility of their starting with a bonus alone ?-I think not. I know that my group of capitalists at Home would not put up the money with a bonus alone. 2348. Would there be any possibility of the works starting with a duty alone ?-At 15 per cent. I had the money guaranteed. If capitalists will put it up for 15 per cent. they may do it for

12! per cent. They the best terms I could get when I was Home.

2349. Then you would be faced with t his position, that the duty on the raw material would be exactly t he same as the duty on the manufactured article 7-But the carriage on the manufactured article is much heavier t han that on the raw material. At any rate we must sell our stuff, and if we had to take something below the full amount of the duty we should have to take what we could get so long as we made a profit. vVe must keep our works going.

2350. How much capital would you propose raising 'l-Over a million of money. 2351. By Mr. L. E. Groom.-Have you the details as to the flotation of the company-for instance, the terms on which the proprietors of the iron deposits were prepared to hand them over to the new company ?- -I could give them, although I should have to go through them first, because we could not give away all the details of the prospectus.

2352. By M1· . Kirwan.- How much are t he men who own the Blythe River properties putting into the company 7-Do you mean how much capital we are getting for -the mine? Only a small proportion. I connot tell enctly what it is-I do not think it would be fair-but a small proportion. The men who raise t he capital get the cream of everything. They would not give a million of money for a million shares.

2353. Mr. Jamieson says that the men who own the Blythe River mine have put up £30,000, and then credit themselves with 5'CJ0,000 shares. Those are £1 shares7-Yes. I cannot go into the details. That is what we appear to get, but we cannot get that when we have made arrangements fer the raising of t he money.

2354. By Mr. L . E . G1·oom.-Does that include also the transfer of their consideration and interest in the mine ?- Yes, we get no cash out of it, but simply shares. 2355. Tl_ 1e proposal is to transfer the mine from the original holders who have put in a certain amount of capital, and then for the other capital to be raised from outsiders, and the return of the orignal holders would be shares in the new concern 7-Yes, we should own about one-fourth of the company I expect.

2356. By j)£r. Ki1·wan.-According to this you would own nearly one-half-500,000 shares out of a million ?-But there are over 1,000,000 shares subscribed. We have to sell those. 2357. By M1·. L. E . Groom.-I understand that you want£1, 250,000 to equip and work the mine, and to raise that you would have to issue 1,000,000 shares 1 Either you would have to raise t he money on shares or debentures ?-It is at the option of the syndicate to whom we sell to raise the capital, by shares or debentures as it suits them.

2358. By Mr. Mauger-Is this land owned by the company that is trying to float the mine?­ Part of it is privately owned, and part of it is owned by the Government. 2359. By M1·. L. E. Groom.-Held on lease ?-Yes; but the best part of it is freehold. 2360. By Mr . .A£auge1·-In the event of the Government wishing to work the mines, they would have to acquire them in t he same way as t he London Company under your proposal?-Yes.

2361. By M1· Kirwan.-I understand that the proposal was this-That if a Bonus Bill be passed on the understanding that the duty will follow it at the expiration of a certain period, the property at present owned by the Blythe River Company, and upon which they have spent £30,000 will become so valuable, that they will credit themselves with £500,000 in £1 shares. This last company has put up £30,000, but there has been £50,000 or £60,000 spent upon the Blythe River property. 'fhe present company would put up £30,000, but altogether the amount of £50,000 has been put up, that is including all that has been spent; and the Company will credit themselves with 500,000 £1 shares in a company

that has 1,000,000£1 shares'I-Yes. 2362. By JJ1r. L. E . Groom.-'l'hey also transfer all their interests freehold and leasehold '?-We credit ourselves with one-fourth of a company, with a -million of working capital. 2363. By M1·. f{ir·wan.-You credit yourselves with 500,000 shares, and there are 1,000,000 shares in the Company. Mr. Jamieson's evidence states-" The Company is in existence at the present time; it contains 1,000,000 shares, 500,000 of which are issued to the owners of the mine, and we have to put up £30,000 as welL vVhat is the value of the shares '?-They are £1 shares. The gentlemen who owned the Blythe River mine had to put up £ 30,000, and then theylcredit themselves with 500,000 shares 1-Yes, that is half the mine? "--Yes, they are the details of the old company, but not the details of the new one that would be floated in London. The Company would be altered. The old one will

not be in existence at all. It will be wound up. 2364. By Jvh: L. E. GToom.- Then you propose to form a new Yes, a new one

entirely that takes over the old one. 2365. By Mr. l(irwan.-At any rate, the passage of the Bonus Bill would immensely increase the value of the property ?- We are holding it now, and it is simply worth nothing at alL I do not consider that we can do anything with it at present, but we know that it would be of value some day if

we hold on to it. 2366. By Sir· Edwa1·d Braddon.-Can you not turn your iron to any account, as they do at the iron cliff at the back of the Penguin 7-For flux. 2367. Yes '?-The demand is so small that it is not worth troubling about. 'l'hey do not make much money out of the Penguin.

2368. I am told that there is a considerable demand indeed 7-There was form erly a market for the supply of the Broken Hill companies with flux. 'l'hey wanted 50,000 tons a yea1: ; but they got,. mine of their own, and it came to nothing. We do not think it worth wh1le to go on w1th a railway for the -sake of the Illawarra works. There is not much in it for a big company.

2369. By Mr·. Rirwan.-You say that the Blythe River Company's property is not of any value at present '?-Only prospective value. ·

U7

1543

H. F. O.Keailao lit June, _ 19031

2370. What would be the value of the property in the event of the Bonus Bill passin<> 1-I£ we succeed in getting the capital we hope for it wiU be very valuable. If you were to put it up l'or auction I do not suppose you would get a bid for it . If you get the capital put up, that makes it of value. There is no prospect of capital without the Bonus Bill.

2371. If you get the company floated, you would credit yourselves with a large number of the shares 1-Y es . 2372. One-fourth of the present shares 1-I cannot tell you exactly the conditions under which the company will be floated, but I can say roughly t hat we might make it worth £200,000 to us.

237 3. By ilh. L. E. G1·oom.-To be paid for in shares or in cash 1- vVe are taking no cash; only shares. W e had to take the best terms we co uld get. .

2374. By jJf?-. Kirwan.-That is practically what the company would get as the result of the Bonus Bill 't--£50,000 has already been spent on the property, and, no doubt, if necessary, we shall spend another £30,000 to keep the labour conditions going for t he sake of t he prospective value of the property. We know t hat the wo rks would never get a start in Australia until they do have a Bill of

this sort pa sed. 2375. ·why do you say thaP-That is my experience from what I learn t at home. 2376. If Mr. Sandford can produce iron at Lithgow at 35s. a ton, and it costs 8s. a ton to bring t hat iron to Sydney- which makes it worth 43s. a ton in Sydney-do you not think t hat under those circumstance locally produced iron can compete favourably with imported iron 1-Certainly under those circum tances, but I am perfectly sure that Mr. Sandford cannot go straight away and make iron as they are making it in America.

2377. Your experience is chiefly that of a financier 't--Yes, but I have gone into all t hese figures. Ml'. Darby says that if you can keep your works constantly employed-that is to say, if you sell every­ thing you produce- and you produce say 300,000 tons of iron a year, you can no doubt produce it very cheaply, b ut at the start you have to face all sorts of t rade prejudices against your iron and steel.

Your orders are intermittent, and it takes years to work up to t he point when you can sell everything you produce and have a regular market. It is a guarantee during that time that we want. 2378. Do you not t hink Mr. Sandford has a better knowledge of what iron can be produced for in Australia 1-I do not say that he is wrong, but he does not say t hat he can produce it at once for that pl'ice. H e says he can produce it for that price when t he conditions are favorable. ·

2379. He says under that price. Do you know t he price at which imported iron is sold in Aus­ t ralia 1-It varies co nsiderably. I saw in t he evidence which you took in Sydney that it sold at 80s. But hematite pig is worth more than Scotch pig; t here are different kinds of Scotch pig at different prices. 2380. If Mr. Sandford can produce iron and land it in Sydney for 43s. a ton, do you not think

that under those circumstances iron can be produced locally without a duty 1-Even if t hose statements are correc t that you can produce it for that price, Mr. Sandford could not get capitalists at home to star t the ind ustry without protection or a, heavy bonus. 23 81. By Mr. jJ1auge1 ·._.:._He says that himself, doesn't he 1-I think so.

23 82. By Mr. L. E. Groom.-That is to say capital would not be invested unless some induce­ ment were given 'I--That is so. In Canada, iron can be produced at 33s. per ton, and there they have a duty and a bonus. 2383. By Mr. Kirwan.-Surely, if it can be shown clearly to moneyed men in the old

that iron can be sold in Australia at a profit of from £1 to .£2 per ton, t he capital would be obtamable 1 - The difficulty is in starting. So many iron industries have been started and have failed. There are always a lot of difficulties in starting blast furnaces. Then t here is the prej udice. against stuff, because manufacturers have got used to other kinds of iron and find that the new Iron contams some­

thing which they do not understand perfectly well. All t hose things have to be got over. They _have had to be faced in evet·y country where iron works have been established. It takes years to establi sh a market. 2384. What would be the cost of the flotation of this company 1-I could not exactly tell you, but it will be a considerable amount . The cost of raising the capital is to be paid for out of our pockets.

2385. By 1111·. L. E . G1·oom.-The existing company's profits 1-Yes. . . .

2386 . Do you consider only the possibility of securing the Australian m. floatmg this company 1- N o ; we have hopes that in times when the market for iron and steel IS lugh we co uld supply the wes t coast of South America and India, and probably even J apan. . . . . . .

2387 . By Si1· Edward Braddon.-Have you gone into all the conditions p_revmhng m which will enable you to say at what cost iron can be supplied the:e 't--I could not_gLVe you the now, but I have the figures at home. There is a large quantity of steel used _m the way of ra1ls m I ndia. W e are very favorably sit uated as to distance from very large markets m the matter of manufacture of iron. Others hav!' to bring their stuff around t he Cape or through the Canal, whwh means expensive freight.

2388. By 1lf1' . Winter Co oke.-Would you want this protective d ';l ty for many years, or would you hope to be able to do without it after a certain t ime 1-vVe should like to be sure of a real start. W e should like to have it for some years. . . . 7 2389 . Do you feel that at date within a reasonable t1me you Without t he duty .-I believe that in t he course of fiv e or six years we might be able to d? w1thout 1t. .

2390. By Ab·. Maugm·.-What is the experience of m that regard ?-The l:ng works t hat all the talk is about are only just started. They only produced 1ron about a year ago-1t may be years-but it was while I was at home that the first iron came to London from the Sydney works m

Canada. h · · · 30

2391. They have had a duty of 20 per cent. for some years, but now t ey are rmsmg It to per cent. 1-Y es. Rails have been free, and now t hey propose to put on a fixed duty of 7 dollars. 23 92. lJy Sir· Edwcwd Braddon.-Is it that at t he outset of your there shoul_d

be imposed on iron a duty t hat is practicall y prohibitive 1-I QQ not cons1der that lo per cent. Is prohibitive.

H F. C. Keats, l'st June, 1903. 118

2393. What would be the effect upon the price of iron to consumers in the Commonwealth if a duty of 15 per cent. were imposed 1-l t just depends upon whether pig iron is selling for 50s. a ton in England. Fifteen per cent. on 50s. is 7s. 6d. per ton-that is, provided the whole of the duty be added.

2 394. By ilfr Mauger.-Do you say that the whole of the duty will not be added 1-Yes; I say that will only be the case when the English market is depressed. We shall have to sell our stuff. You cannot make any profit out of these works unless you keep them going at full speed. There is a loss every time you shut down, and if we cannot get t he full benefit of the duty we shall sell for what we can get-at a profit .

2395. By M1·. J{irwan.-Do you expect to get many orders from State Governments 1-We hope to do so . 2396. Suppose the decision of t he courts is upheld that the Common wealth Government cannot tax State Governments' imports, would you be able to compete when the State Governments of Australia could get their rails free of duty 1-I do not think we should be able to compete unless we could get contracts from the State Governments for large quantities. vVe should have to employ our works in making other stuff as well as rails-stuff such as structural material and galvanized iron.

2397. When you went home to float the company were you not able to put before capitalists particulars as to the cost of production of iron in Australia 1-0h, yes; I had 1\'Ir. Darby's figures. But that matter was confidential. If we can keep our works fully employed we can produce iron at a reason­ able price a nd can compete with home manufacturers, but the thing is t o be able to keep the works fully employed.

2398. vVould it also be a breach of confidence to state for how much you would be likely to dis­ pose of your iron-the price you intend to charge 1-I co uld not tell you that. I suppose it would be governed by the conditions of working at the moment--such as the price of coal and coke. 2399. Do you think that your prices would compare with the present prices for imported iron 'I-­ I do not t hink they would be lower than the present price, but they would be lower than the price a

year or t wo ago-considerably lower. Iron is not at a very high price now. It has come dow n consider­ ably. R ails are lower now t han they have been on t he average for t he last six years. 2400. By Jlr. Mattg er.-How do you account for that 1-It started with the trade depression at home. I think that rails were up to £7 or £8; now they are £ 4 lOs.

2401. Had t he war anything to do with that?-No, I think not. increases of machinery for making rails, bo th in America and England, and is beginning to t ell.

There have been enormous t he effect to this machinery

2402. By M1·. Winte? · Cooke.-You have come to the conclusion that 15 per cent. is enough to meet the great fluctuations which take place in the cost of iron 1- Y es ; we can carry on wi th a duty of 15 per cent. 2403. By Jlfr. Kirwan.-According to 1\'Ir. Jamieson's evidence, £4 lOs. is the lowes t price ever known in Sydney for steel rails 1-The price is £ 4 lOs. in Great Britain now, but you have to add freight to that.

2404. By Sir Edward Braddon.-I think you said that if you had a duty of 15 per cent. you would not care about the bonus1-It is just the same. The bonus is better in one way, inasmuch as it gets over the difficulty, we have been talking about as to whether State Governments are to pay duty or not. But if we get our work& in full swing, the bonus would only last for a few years, whilst we want peotection for five or six years.

2405. By .Mr. L. E . G1·oom.-Have you submitted the question of the bonus alone in accordance with the terms of this Bill to the London capitalists?-Yes ; and they would not look at it. I cabled out to 1\'Ir. J amieson from home that we would sooner do away with the bonus altogether than have the bon us alone.

2406. Did they say t hat the bonus alone would not be sufficient to induce capital to be invested here 1-N ot a bonus of this sort . If you have a bonus for five years paid on everything produced, it is all right; but a honus of this size is of no use. You cannot produce iron and steel cheaply unless you have large works and keep t hem constantly employed.

2407 . Do you think you could carry on steel works here without obtaining orders for State rails ; is t here sufficient private work to enable you to carry along is a large amount of private work; but we should be more or less dependent upon the governments. 2408. Hy .J}f?·. N anyer.-There would be no room for two ironworks then course, our wo rks

would practically prod uce steel. The pig iron im ported into A ustralia is only to a small extent hematite iron, such as we can make. There must be woeks to produce foundry iron, soo ner or later, and, of course, the works would grow . 2409. By Si1· ]i}du;a? ·d Bmdclon .- There is no other country outsid e the Commonwealth where you think your iron would be sold 1-0h, yes, I think our iron could be sold elsewhere.

2c!IO. In other countl"ies than have named ?--Perhaps in South Africa; but the west coast of South Americn will be the best market for us, because t here are no ironworks on the wes t coast, and all the iron used t here has to go round Cape Horn, so that tl1e freights a re very much in our favour. There is also China. The freights are very favorable there, because at present t he stuff either has to go round the Horn or through the Su ez Canal.

2411. By Mr. Ki1·wan.- Did you issue any prospectus of this new company of course there was a private prospectus to t he purchasers from us, but it was never iss ued, because we we re waiting for t he Tariff to pass last session. 24 12. The private prospectus is confidential ?-Yes.

24 13. By Mr. L. E . G1 ·oom.-Can you give any reasons, in addition to those you have stated, why this industry should be established, and why inducement sho ul d be offered ?-The im ports of steel and iron into Australia represent a very large amount of money-between £4-,000, 000

119

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H. F. 0. K eat•. let June, 1903

2414 . . Ny Edu:cwd B1·addon.-Have you any knowledge of the number of h ands that would be employed tn nunmg and ma nufacture 1- I think lVI r. J amieson ·works out those f-i,.,.ures .. Hy Cooke.-But it n: eans if >tll this iron is to be produced. in t he country,

the dut) .mu;t be ptOhJbitive ?-No; the duty 1s pt·a<.;tlcally on now, and imports come into the co untry all the same. 2-1, 16. But iron were made in the country, so as to employ all the hands r eferred to it must

mean t hat the duty I S practicall y pr oh ibitive ?- No. The import:ttion of iron is nearly 500,000 tons, and ou r works only propose to turn out 150,000 tons. There must be all sods of iron goods that cannot be made here, and never will Le. 2-!17 · By ,lf-r . Mauge1 ·.- \ Vhat do you mean by sa.yinrr that t he uuty is now on 1-There is a

duty on rail s, for instance. "'

241 8. B y Jl/1·. L . E. Croom.- That is to say, many of t he a r ticles proposed to be manufactured Ly your are now subject to duty ?-They a re subject to duty under VI.A of the 'l'ariff. It is

true ther·e IS a n outcry from the Governments a ctainst puttinrr an import duty on their rails but the duty i-; not 1wohibitive. "' "' '

(T aken at M elb ourne.) WEDNESDAY, 3uD J UNE, 1903.

Comrnissione1·s p·l'esent : The Right Hon. C. C. in the Chair;

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Kirwan ,

Mt·. Vi1inter Cooke, Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Full er, Mr. vVatkins.

Mr. L. E. Groom,

John Thompson, sworn and examined.

24 19. By the Chcti1'11tan .- You live in Castlemaine ?--Yes. 2420. You are an engineed--1 >Lm a partner in the firm of Messrs. Thompson and Co.,

engineers and ironfounders. 2+21. I understand that you have had considerable experience in connexion with it·on works 7-Y es. 2422. Ove t· how many years does your experience extend 7-During the last twelve years I have loo ked more after the financial part of the Of course the fi rm has been establish ed for 27

year·s. 2423. It carries on an extensiYe business ?-Yes. 2-1,2 4. H ave you formed any opinion regarding the possibility of successfully a n

industry for t he man ufactu re of iron from nati ve ores1-I cannot say tha.t I have. Of course that matter has been brought under our notice Yery p t·omineutly within t he las t month or two, })ut generall y speaking we are of opinion that the population of Australia is too small to permit of the establishment of ext ensive works at present.

2-1, 25. By 1lh. L. E. G1·oorn .-Can you give us any ide

wealt h of t hose articles t he manufacture of wh ich is contemplated u n der the Bonus Bill ?-I am not aware of what those a r t ides arc. Do t hey inel ude pi"-iron or finished iwn tmu steel 'I 2±26. ·what is the raw m>Lterial used in works at Castlemaine ?--Pig- iron, bar-iron, steel. vV e do not use galvanized iron or ·pelter, but we do use iron and s teel tubes.

2427. How would the imposition of a duty upon your raw material operate for the pu rpo8C of encouraging t he manufacture of iron ?-Of course, every impost . that is l evied upon t he raw matcnal which we a re now usin" is an additional cost to the manufacture vf anv machieer y that we n:ny 0 - l '

undertake. "i\ioreover, we do not t hink that the cla sses of iron which coulrl be manufadurec nere a rc sufficient fo r the trade, or mthe1· that the pig-iron which is likely to be used in w ill te of

classification required for some W e have to buv certain grades of pig-iron for cerh.rn f

work, and we scarcely think it is possible for t he Commo;;wealth to pr·oclu ce iron suitnble fo r all cs of work. 'Ve do not think the production will be anything like sufficient to permit of the e.;wbh shmcnt of a n industry t hat will pay, unless

the slightest degree. From where do you draw your supplies at the present time ?- From Scotla:: rl.

American iron is out of t he market at present, alt hough we haYe a lot d 1t . 'Ihe P16·Iron wlm:h

we use is imported chietiy from Scotland. .

2429. ' Vhat p r ice are you paying for it landed in M elbou rne '!- Its cost. Ya n es a great de: d. '\"e pay from £ 4 per ton to more t han £5 per ton for it. _

2430. Then there is t he f reigh t to be paid to your own works 1-Y: es. . . .

2431. Have you consid ered the quality of the ore that is lik ely to be obtatn ecl m Australia?-I know n othing about t hat. . . .

2432. If iron works were es tablished in the Commonwealth for the purpose of p roduwrg prg-1ron, do you think that would have any effect upon the p rice of the imported ar t icle ?-I do not think that it would. 2'.1-33. For what reason for ma ny yem s t hose who a re engaged in t he sale of importcu

pi g-i ron have made ve ry little profi t upon it . Of com se ,. wh en the pri:::e rose considcra.hly about two years ago, those who h eld large stocks had a n opportumty to make so mc.thmg upon them, Lut large stock s are not held here. A s far as my experien ce goes we can 1mport ptg-H·on cheaper than we can b uy it locally.

John Thompson , 3rd June, 1903.

2434. Would the establishment of local works obviate the necessity for holding large stocks ?-I do not think it would affect us in the slightest degree. •

2435. Do you always import direct 7-Not always. Sometimes we can do better by not importing, and in such circumstances we obtain our supplies from local people. 2436 . Have you considered the question of the value of iron works in supplying State require­ ments-such, for instance, as steel rails ?-I have not.

2437. Can you sugge:;t any way to encourage the iron industry apart from the methods which have been mentioned ?- If the Commonwealth decided to establish a n iron industry here I think that the fairest way would be for the whole of the States to contribute to the undertaking proportionately. Every one would then pay his proportion of any bonus given. 'l'he engineering industry for many years past has been in anything but a flourishing condition, and I do not think that the establishment of local iron works would affect it in the slightest degr·ee.

2438. What are you manufacturing at your works 7-vV e undert11ke general engineering, and high-class engineering. We manufacture both mining and pumping machinery. vVe do not go in for any rough work at all. 2439. You do not think that it would be of advantage to you to have works established in Australia ?-At present I cannot see that it would.

2440. You do not think that you would then be supplied cheaper than you are now from abroad? -I do not think so. We have imported pig-iron from China. It was shipped to us by some friends as a trial lot, and we found that even wi th Chinese labour it was not possible to compete successfully against English, Scotch, and American iron. ·

2441. Can you give us a.ny reason for that ?-I cannot. The proposal of our fri ends was that they should consign large quantities of iron to us, and take back large cargoes of coal. But despite that they could not successfully compete. 2442. By ilfr. Kirwan.- Did that iron come frpm Chin::>. or J apan ?-It was shipped at Shanghai.

2443. By JJ:fr. L. E. Groom.-You can see no good in ·attempting to establi sh iron works in Australia at the present time ?-The proposal is altogether premature. I do not think it is possible to produce iron to successfully compete against America and England. ·

2444. Is there anything in the labour conditions prevailing here t hat induces you to form that conclusion ?-Yes ; the labour necessary to produce the same articles will cost twice as mu.ch here as it does at home. With the reduced duties at present operating we regard any additional burden that is placed upon us as detrimental to the trade generally.

2445. I s there any reason which would militate against the successful establishment of the iron industry other than the labour conditi01is ?-I think that those are the principal conditions. 2446. you any idea of the wages paid to the persons engaged in the iron works in England 1 -I understand that they are a little more than half of what is paid here.

2447. You have no idea of the total consumption of this material in the Commonwealth ?-No. That information, I presume, would be available in parliamentary documents. Even if the iron industry were established in Australia the idea must not for a moment be entertained that the Commonwealth could capture the whole of the trade, because there are many classes of iron which we are not likely to produce for the next twenty years.

2448. The coke and coal in Australia is of a quality suitable for purposes ?-I suppose it is, but the coke question is a very important one in connexion with the smelting of iron. If coke contains a certain percentage of sulphur it is imrossible to turn out iron of good quality. As illustrating this I may mention that some time ago we imported a large quantity of iron from America at a very low price. It was guaranteed to be a certain quality, equal in fact to a particular brand of English iron which we use extensively. vVhen it came to hand, and we subjected it to the required test, it did not successfully withstand it. As a result we had to discard the whole shipment, thereby losing about £300 or £400. Subsequently we found that this iron had been smelted with coke containing a certain quantity of sulphur, which made it brittle at a certain temperature.

2449. By jlfr. Puller. - You have told us that steel and iron are the raw materials used in your industry?-Yes. 2450. A lso that every duty imposed upon those raw materials represents an additional cost ?-Yes.

245 1. Undet' the old Victorian Tariff what was the duty operative upon your raw -

There was none at all. All iron and steel have been admitted duty free for many years past. 2452. If any duty had been operative it would have been a distinct disadvantage to you in the industry in which you are engaged ?-Yes. 2453. If under t he Commonwealth Tariff a duty were imposed that would be a disadvantage to you in your industry?-Yes. Any impost upon our raw materials would be a distinct disadvantage.

2454. Then you are opposed to any duty upon your raw materials ?-Yes, I mentioned that fact previously. The position is very clear. Any duty imposed adds to the cost of manufacture, and we have only a protection of 12! per cent. at the present time. .

2455. Under the Victorian Tariff what measure of protection was afforded ?-From 20 to 25 per cent. 2456. Yet you told us that under the operation of that Tariff the engineering industry had not flourished ?-That is so; but I do not know that it was owing to the It was not the duty which affected it, but rather a combination of circumstances. Of late years one factor which has affected it has been the labour co nditions under which employers have to work. These have prevented them from

making improvements in their plants that they otherwise would have effected. At the present time people seem to be afraid to invest money in their industries. 2457. H ave the labour conditions to which you r eferred operated in Victoria for any length of time?-Yes ; for many years.

2458. What are those conditions ?- I refer to the FactoriGs Act, the minimum rate of wages, and general interference with the manufacturing classes.

121

1547

John Thompson, 3rd J une, 1903.

2459. If industries had been left alone, would they have been in a better condit ion ?-I think so. At the same time I do not wi h it to be understood that the causes which I have mentioned have alone 'Ihe drought and scarcity of money have had something to do with the present co n­

d1 t10n of afl'mrs. 2460. But Victoria bas not always_ suffe:·ed from but it has suffered for many

years. Of co urse, the recent drought has mtens1fied sufl'ermg all over the Commonwealth. We contem­ plated making alterations in our works t wo years ago, but the interfer ence of the Go vernment deterred us from doing so. At the present time we do not feel disposed to do anything in that direction. . 2-161. Do you know anything of the of bounties and duties in other parts of the world 111

connexion with the iron industry '!--No. 2462. You have not studied t he matter at all 2463. By J,£1·. J oseph Cook.-From where do you get your principal supplies of iron England and cotland.

2464. Do you prefer those supplie::; to t he American a1·ticle 7-As fa.r as pi g-iron is concerned, I cannot say t hat we do. vVe have had good pig-iron and good steel from America. 2-b65 . Then how is it that you imp01·t your principal supplies from E ngland. I ;; it from patriotic motives?- o. If the a rticle ·uits us we buy in the cheapest market. All things being equal we buy in

England, but if t hey are not equn,l we buy elsewhere. 2466. B ut you usually buy from E ngland becn,use t he article you get is cheaper than the American 7-Yes. Of course, the American business ou t here has been done by fits and starts. One cannot get anything from America as cheap as he can from England and Scotland owing to the great internal trade of America.

2467. You a re aware that what is your raw material is t he finished product ofthe iron Yes, outside of the pig-iron. 2468. You take the purely local and view t hat because iron happens to be your raw

materin,l it should not be dutiable, although it is the fin ished product of another industry ?-I look at the matter purely from my own stand-point. 2469. That is the way in which all manufacturers regard 24 70. The condition of things generally, even in protectionist countries, will not allow them t.o

take a benevolent view of their neighbour's operations do not know, but I am not a protectionist. 24 71. Protection cannot assist an industry which has to depend upon an export market 7--N o. 2-±72 . You said t hat Government interference in·various ways was responsible for the dullness of your trade 7-I urged that as a reason why we had not increased our plant.

24 7 3. How has the Factories Act affected the manufacturers of Victoria ?-It imposes certain restrictions upon them regardin g the way in which they shall conduet their businesses. ln addition to t hat, t he minimum wage provision is attached to all Governmen t tenders, so that they have to submit t o a certain amount of ·supervision on the part of t he Govemment, and a certain amount of ir1 terference emanating from t he Trades H all. ·

247 4. Does the minim um \vage provision make very much difference to your business ?-It does not, because it is not t he law of the land so far as our industry is concerned. 2475. By M1 ·. does not affect you 7-No; \Ve simply fear that it may do so some

.

2476. By J,£1·. J oseph Coo/c.-How would t he operation of a minimum wage interfere with an industry such as yours. vVhat difference would it make to t he rate of wages 7-It would increase the price of labour. For instance, under the operaoion of a minimum rate of wage all men employed by ur would receive lOs . a day. Now, as a matter of fact, we could obtain lots of men who cannot eam lOs. a day, but we would not be able to employ them. The trouble is that the employer is not allowed to pay a man propo rtionately t o his vaJue. Numbers of men co uld bfl secured who could do Ss . worth of wo rk

per day:, but under t he Factories Act the employer could not engage t hem without paying them lOs. per day. 2477. Notwithstanding that your industry enjoyed a protection of from 20 25 per cent., 1,ou declined to oxtend your works owing to t he interference of t he Factories Act 7-Not altogether. I he chief factors which led us to our determination were t he expectation t hat the dut ies be decreased, and that the labour legislation li kely to be enacted in Victoria would becom e more Irksome, thereby

rendering it more difficul t for manufacturer s to car ry on their business. 2-!78. Although you are not a protectionist, you appear to like duties ?-No. A ll that we want is a free hand. .

24 79. You said it was t he expectation of lower duties t hat prevented you from extending your business exactly. It was chiefly ow ing to labour legiHlation, because we l1ad done a large exp?rt business when the duties mnged from 20 to 25 per cent., not only with the other States, but also wtth .

2-180. No matter how high the duties imposed might be, you would still feel in sect:re If yo_u were compell ed to pay wages which are fixed by an body?-Yes. e perfectly sat1sfied with t he

operat ion of a 12} per cent. rlu ty if we are allowed to conduct our m our own way.

2481. Even if the duty at present levied were increased t o 2o per cent. you would not extend your worko on account of the outsid e interference to wh ich you have referred 7- I do not say that. One co?ldition qualifie s t he other. . . . . . , .

2482. J. suppose that the objection wluch you urge IS gEnerally enter tamed amongst employe' " m your Y es. . .

2-1 83. I s it general throughout the industries of YlCtona ?- Yes. . . .

2484. By M 1•• Jiange1·.- And throughout the world 1--- e n,re not dealing With the wo rld JUSt now. 2485. JJy N 1•• lVatkinB.--You a re cvidentJr of that you \vould be better

wit hstand this outside influence if you h ttd u. of 2o per cent. mstead of t l! e duty of per

cent. which is now operative ?- If we arc allowed to Import our raw matenal free we do not des1re a higher duty th n,n 121 per cent .

John Thompson, 3rd June, 1903. 122

2486. Hy Jl1r. Jos eph Cool•.-But don't yon see t hat the other fellow also wants so me measure of protection 7-After all there are only a few people engaged in the iron industry, and t hey do not wish to bear the whole cost incurred in the payment of the proposed bonus . . 2±87. By Jfr·. L. E. G1·oom.-The payment of the bonus wi ll fall pro mtct upon the Common­ wealth 7-We do not mind that.

2-t88. By ilh·. Watkins.-How do you t hink your works would stand if the per eent. duty at present operative were aholished7- \Ve should stand very badly. 2489. ·whilst you are a free-trader- you desire protection so far as your own capital is concerned, and a free port in regard to your raw materials7-Yes. With a 12Q- per cent. dutv, and the free admission of our raw materials, we can get along, but I do not consider that a 121 per "cent. d uty is a protective impost. It is more in t he nature of a revenue duty.

24.90. We are considering the advisability of granting the producer of your ;·aw materials a bonus, and providing that at the end of the bonus period a duty should be levied upon t hem. H ave you not considered that unless we do something of the sort we should be interfering with other industries 7-I£ the payment of the bonus is distributed over the Commonwenlt h p1·o nttd it would mean next to nothing. At the same t ime if some assistance is not given to the manufacturers here they will simply die away.

2491. How do the wages paid in Victoria compare with those paid in New South Wales 7-I think they are very much the same. 2492. How do they compare with the wages paid to t he iron workers in America 7-For a ce rtain class of men the wages paid in America are higher than those obtaining in Victoria, but for other classes of labour they are not. If a man is worth 1 Os . or 15s. a day t here he is encouraged to earn t hat

amount. There is no doubt that in America men are paid very large wages, but they do the work which warrants its payment. That is what we want. We desire to be able to pay men what t hey can earn. :l493. U nder t he old Victorian Tariff your raw materials were admitted free7-Yes. 2494. \Voul d they have been on the free list if V ictoria had possessed iron deposits similar to those to be found in the other States 7-My experience of the Victorian Parliament for many years past is that it does not hesitate t o do anything so long as its policy will suit the people for the time being.

2495. I s not that one of the reasons why t he Parliament of this State did not levy a duty upon these articles ?-.\Vc have good iron or e in Victoria-at Lal La!. 2496. Has any of it been tested ?-I believe that it has been tested by the Government. I t hink the idea that an iron industry co uld be wccessfully established within t he next 50 years, unless the population increased very rapidly, is regarded as absurd.

2497 .. Have you gone into the question of the annual consumption of pig-iron in Australia ?­ I have not based my opinion upon that. I have formed it generally from t he quantity of iron imported into the States, which, I think, represents about 100,000 tons annually. 2498. By M1-. A"irwan.-I understand that you do not favour the granting of a bonus for the

production of iron, or the imposition of a duty upon imported iron under any circumstances whateYer 1 -I do not say that. If the payment of a bonus is not to be borne by a few manufacturing engineers of t he States we do not object. If the Commonwealth pays t.he bonus, we shall still occ upy the same position that we do now. On the contrary, if it had to be paid by the manufacturers it would affe ct their industry very materinlly. After all , the employers number only a few persons, b ut they employ a large number of workmen . Their industry also affords an opening fo r t he utilization of a great deal of young labour. vVe keep 11 big industry going, and employ not merely men who have been with us for twenty years, but also their sons. 2499. You buy pig-iron locally cheaper than yo u can import it ?-At times we do. It depends upon the variations of the market. 2500. The price of impo r ted iron is £ 4 or £5 per ton?-Yes. 2501. ·what is the cost of the lo cal article 7-About £4 or £ 5 per ton just n ow . 2502. By ;liT. ll1auger.--How many men do you empl oy7--Up till twel ve months ago we employed about 400, but since t hen we have retained scarcely half that number. 2503. Is there any special reason for that ?-I think it is due to the general depress ion throughout Australia more than to anything else. 250'1. You approve of the American plan, which enables employers to pay their workmen accord­ing to their wo rth 7-Yes. 2505. How is their worth arrived at. I s it fb.:;ed by the employers alone, or have the t rades unions any say in the ma,tter 7-I do not know. People who have come fr-om America say-" \ Ve pay men so many dollars," representing perhaps nearly .£1 per day. When I ask them how they manage to pay such high rates, they reply---" Oh, the men do the work." Here employers pay a maximum sum. I have been upon two wages boards, and I claim to know so mething about the matter. 2506. \Vhat wages.boards wei·e those7-The ironmoulders and brassfinishers. 2507. Neither of t hose boards have anything to do with your b usiness7--No. 2-'508. Do you think it right that either the men on the one hnnd or the employers on the other should have an exclusive say as to what is t he value of an individual's labour 7-I most decidedly think that the employer who pays the wages sho ul d have an absolute right to say what is the val ue of the work performed. 2509. You are of opinion t hat no one but the employer should have any say as to the value of the labour he is employing 1-I think that, after all , the rate of W<1ges depends upon t he law of supply and demand. 25 10. In connexion with great iron works such as we are considering, wou ld t here be successfu l co-operation on the part of emp!oyer :wd employe if either wus strong enou gh to dominate?-! scarcely t hink so. If trade is good, my experience is that the wages go up, wh il st if t rude is bad t hey come down. I do not think that throughout the whole Commonwealth we can pick out half-a-dozen men who have made huge fortunes. • 2511. Do you t hink it is detrimental to industry t hat trades unions should exist 7-I do.

1549

123 John Thompson, 3rd June, 1903 .

. 2512. You _do believe there should be any combination on the part of employ es 1--I do not obJ ect to combmatwn so long as It doe· not prevent men from doing as t hey choose. 251 3. S hould the same be applicable to employers 1--Y es. I do not thi nk there sho uld

be co mbinations at all. 251 -1 -. If the present duty were increased to 15 per cent., would an impos t of 7§- per cent. upon your raw materials affect the manufactured articles 1-It would affect them very much. 2515. You could not carry on with less than a per cent. margin between th e Juty upon the

raw material and that upon the manufactured article 'I-No; and I think I am t he only person who will admit that the m11.rgin mentioned is sufficien t . 251 6.- By Jh-. Win te1· Cooke.- I s the average price that you pay for your raw materials 80s. per ton_ or thereabouts 7-No. vVe use nearly all Scotch iron, which is more expensive than is the English

article. At the present time the price of English and Scotch iron ra nges from 7 5s. per t on to £ 5 5s . p E'r ton, but the main price I think would be about 80s . or 85 s. per ton, according to grade a nd market . Of co urse, article for which £':' 5s. per ton is paid is very superior. 2517. The lowest sum at which you put it is 75s. per ton 7-No ; we have bee n offered iron at

70s. per ton; but we do not use tha t class of 3-rticle. 251 8. By )Jr . L. E. G1·uom. - You said that at one t im e you exported to the East 1- Y es. 25 19. vVhat did you export7-Mining and pumping machinery to the Straits Settlements and Borneo. W e have been exp rting to the Straits Settlements for the last ten years.

2520. If a duty of 10 per cent. wet·e levied upon the imported raw after the iron

industry had been successfully es tablished in A ustralia, would not the local competition reduce prices?-1 do not think so. The profit upon t he heavy lines is very small. 2521. By il11·. Jl1auge1·.- I s the con sumption of Ant werp iron increasin g in Vict oria ?-I do not think so. vVe do not like the German article at all. The price is low, but t he ar t icle itself will not

compare with th e English iron. Of course, good iwn can be obtained from Ge rm any, but t aking class and class the English and Scotch irons

2523. If the demands of the Commonwealth were sufficient to keep only Oil e establishment going, and a duty wet·e imposed, I suppose that the price would be certain to go up ?-There is no doubt about that. 252 4- . You are not of opinion that we can produce iron in Australia for less than 7 5s. per ton ?­

I saw a statement the other day to the effect that it could be produced for 35s. per t on, and, needless to say, I was very much astonished. 2525. What is your opinion of that statement ?-I think thak the local article will cost quite as much as does the imported. ·

2526. By 1111·. Joseph Cook.-You believe in wages being regulated by t he law of supply and demand 'I-Yes. 25 27 . I .' uppose you know t hat the operation of a Tariff is an int erference with that law 1-Certainly.

2528. But you believe in a little interference in that direction 7-I cannot follow that ques tion sufficiently to enable me to reply to it. 2529. By Jib-. Watlcins.-Should trade incre

2530. On the other hand they would decrease those wages if their trade declined ?--:-E xa?tly. 2531. Then can you understand employers attempting to reduce wages when trade IS at Its best 1 -I cannot . 2532. Do you not know t hat that is being attempted in Australia to-day ?-No ; unless it is being done in extreme cases. 2533. Is it an extreme case where the men employed number thousands 'I- I should not t hink that such instances could be found. 2534. By lllr. L. E. Groom.-ls there any other evidence that you would like t o place before t he Commission 1--·I might _point out that certain classes of iron and steel are n_ot from the same class of ore at home. Indeed, the quality of the ore used in the manufacture of _u·on1s of very great unp_ort­ance. It is a matter of chemistry. Doubtless these questions will be mto so far _ a1; Jron deposits are concerned. But even if Australia possessed a far bigger I do not thmk It would be possible for t he industry to pay for a long time. vVe should h a ve t o ascertam t he oreat?ur command, and the qualities that \ ould be required. Moreover, time would be occu pted m determmmg the most suitable classes of iron for various classes of work. . . . , 2535. By M1·. Watkins.-Do you know anything of the history of the Iron 1ndustry m Canada.-Very little. . . . 2536. The population of that count ry does not exceed our o;vn ?-:-I thm k 1t t he of Australia by about a million. But I would point out that th_e ll'On d1d n_o good m Ca.nada till quite re:::ently. Of co urse in a mat t;er of this sort, everyt hmg depends obt;ammg t he proper flu xes in close proximity t o where the iron is being manufactured. Then t he m ll way and the steamer freights have to be taken into consideration. Richard Greenwood Middleton, sworn and examined . 2537. By Mr. L . E. G1·oom. - What is your occupation ?-I am manager of the Phrenix Foundry Company Limited, Ballarat. . . 2538. vVhat class of work does your company undertake _ generally 7-vVe prmc1pally un dertake the manufacture of locomotives. vVe have i:nade 343 for the R ail way depart ment, and have seven now in hand.

R. G. Aliddleton, Srcl June, 1903. 124

2539. ' Vhat are the raw materials used by your firm as shown on the schedule to the Bonus Bill 1-Pig-iron , puddle, bar- iron, and steel. We also use a little spelter, but not much. 2540. I suppose that you understand the idea underlying the proposals of the Government in respect to the encouragement of the manufacture of iron in Yes.

25 41 - 2. Have yon con sidered what wo uld be the effect or those proposals if put into operation ?­ The effe ct would certainly be to increase the cost of our manufactures. Bar-iron and steel are amongst our ra,w materials, and that is one of the reasons wh y they have alw'ays been admitted free of duty. 254 3. Have you considered the possibility of successfully establishing the iro n industry in A ustralia 7-I have al ways looked upon the proposal as very nearly impracticable.

2544. For what reason of the increased cost of production.

2545. Arising from whnt ?-From the difference between t he rate of wages and t he hours of labour in Au stra.lia as compared with those which obt:tin in English factories . In Victoria and New South ·wales tho wages paid are practically double those which obt,lin in England for skilled labour. In Queensland, of course, where the climatic conditions are not so good, t he rat e is still higher. Skilled mechanics in England receive from 30s. to 36s. per week, whereas in Australia they get up to £3 12s. per week. ·with regard b unskilled labour, the wages in the Commonwealth are from 6s. 6d. t o 7s. per day as agninst from I Ss . to 20s. per week in England.

2546. 1'he labour conditions here would make t he price of t he raw material here higher than is the imported7-I could not offer any opinion in regard t o the miners' wages here compared with t hose at home, but I have always understood t.hat t here was a big differ ence. 2:54 7. What do yo u pay for imported pig-iron now 7-The last lot purchased by me cost £4 7s. 6d. per ton. For our work, however, we have to obtain the very best material and accordingly we have consistently kept to one particular brand. If the industry were established in A ustralia I very much question whether the same grade of iron could be obtained as we use. In the English smelters they do a large amount of mixing. Spanish are being largely used.

2548. Could not that be done here ?-I suppose it could, but freights would be much heavier. 2549. You use a higher grade of pig-iron ?-W e use what is considered to be the best upon the mark ot . 255 0. Do you think that if the indust ry were established by means of t he payment of a bonus, it would be_able to carry on successfully 1-I am of opinion that it rni.ght be established for a few years; but, if it suh3eguently had to co me into competition with the imported article, it would not be able to stand.

255 1. Do you think it could be successful under the operation of a 10 per cent. duty?-I do not t hink so. 2552. Do yo u consider there is any prospect of the profitable establishment of the industry wit hin the Commonwealth ?-I do not think that the market here is big enough to absorb the output from any up-to-date works, a,lthough it might be sufficient in the case of small works.

2553. Have you had any experience of pig-iron made from Australian ore have had a little in connexion with the Lal Lal deposits. 2554. What was the nature of that experience '1-vVe never knew what we would get. 25 55. The quality of the ore was irregular 7-Yes.

2556. vVhat was the reason of that?-I did form an opinion, but I would rather not express it. 2557. By fl£1'. Winter Coolce.-Your industry is protected now l-It is protected in that the Government stipulate in t heir contract that the engines should be made in Victoria. · · 25 58. Is that the only protection which you enjoy ?- Upon the locomotives there is a duty of 12t per cent., but t he rate used to be 25 per cent., but t he States import ft·e e.

255 9. If a d uty were imposed upon imported iron the rate upon your article could be increased 1 - Y es . A per cent. duty is really no protection to us when one remembers the difference that exists between the price of labour locally, and its cost abroad . 2560. If your raw material were protected you would want the duty upon t he ar ticle which you manufacture to be increased ·?-Yes, it should be raised in all fairness.

256 1. You have not bought any pig-iron recently ?-Not during the last four or fiv e months. 2562. ·w hat is the average cost of pig-iron has been sold as lo w fLS £3 I Os . per ton, but

that price refers only to a shipment which had to be cleared. 2563. The lowest price wo uld be about 70s. per ton ?--That is so, as far as my knowledge goes. 2564. By 1111'. Ji'uller.- If up-to-date works were established within the Commonwealth, would their production have any chance in the world's markets against the American and English articles 1-I do not think so. Certainly they would not unless the same thing happened here as occurred in America a few years ago . The American rates were very high, and the manufacturers had overproduced, with the result t hat t hey sent to Australia a quantity of manufactured iron at prices £2 or £ 3 per ton lower than those at which it could be bought in England at the time. But, of course, they made their money out of their home market. In order to keep up the price t hey took advantage of t heir own consumers.

However, I am in favour of protection all round, and if I t hought that the industry co uld be profitably established by the imposition of a duty of 10 per cent., I should be quite prepared to pay my proportion. 2565. In order t o successfully carry on your business, you have to adhere to one pa rt icular brand of iron 7-Yes. vVe have to subject the castings, the brass, t he gun-metal, the iro n-castings, &c. , to a very high test. All samples have to be tes ted,

2566 . If a duty were imposed upon your 1 aw material, how would it affect you 7-It would increase the cost of our manufactures by the amount of the impost levied. For example, if the raw material in a certain piece of machinery cost £2,000, its price to the con sumer would have to be i ::wreased by the amount of the duty.

2567. effect of any duty upon your raw material is a distinct disadvantage to yo u in your business 7-It is a. disad vantage t o the publi c, because our customers wo uld have to pay it. 2568. By ilfr. L. E. Gmom.- Yo u unde1·stand that a du ty is not to be imposed until the industry has been successfully established ?-Yes. .As far as I am able to judge the only State in wh ich iron-works co uld be successfully established is New Sout h vVales, and then even if they could sell their productions

125 G. Middleton,

'"3l'd June, 1903.

1551

at a price compara:ble with t hat of the English and Scotch articles after t he latter had paid the freight to Austral_1a, and the 10 per cent. duty, t here would still be t he freight from Sydney to Melbourne,

&c., . whlCh would represent as as does t he freigh t from E ngland. The outside

compe_t1t10n wlll a l_ ways regulat: t he pn ces here. The price of the local article will be regulated by that at wh10h the E ngh sh and Scottish manufacturers can deliver bar-iron and plates f.a.s. at Sydney and Melbourne. 2569. Moreover, if the industry were esta,bl ished in New South 'V aJes the manufacturers of that

State would get t heir raw materials at a less price than you could obtain YeF.

2570. By Mr. Fuller .- You say t hat a 10 per cent. duty if imposed would be passed on to the consumers 2571. I s t hat t he general custom ?-Well, t h e importers pass t h e duty on together with their profits, so t hat the con sumer has to pay both profit and duty.

2572. By Mr. L. E . Groom .-Have you considered what would be the effect upon your industry of the recent Supreme Court decision t hat State imports shall be admitted free of duty ?-So long as t he State Government limits t he manufacture of the engines to the State it would make no difference, as in that case we should have to compete only wit h local manufacturers. Everybody would t hu3 be

placed upon the same footing. If we are placed upon the sa,me footing as t he English manufact u rer we are not afraid to compete with him at any time. Out of 400 locomotives for which tenders have been called by this State, only 58 have been taken frorn us by local fi rms. vVe are not afraid to meet English or German man ufacturers, pl'OYided we are placed on an equality with them.

257 3. By Mr . Josep h Cook .- You stated just now that it was the custom for importers to include in the price paid by th e consumer the duty charged upon their stocks, together with their own profit; what do you mean was in t he drapery t rade some years ago, in the capacity of clerk. There the

custom was to add to t he cost of t he goods t he duty a nd <-Lll other charges paid upon them, together with t he ordinary p rofits. 2574. A ssuming t hat no d uty was payable upon the goods, would you have charged the consumer with a

2575. It is only wh en duties are imposed that they are passed on to the consumer ?-Yes. Hitherto local competit ion has kept down t he prices in the local market. In support of my statement I may mention t hat when Wb were doing rather a large Western A ustralian trade in mining engines there was a run upon one particular class of engine. We manufactured seven or eight of them at a price

which was not satisfactory to us. I arranged with an engineer friend of mine that he should draw up a specification, and forward it through a Melbourne firm to L ondon, with a view to obtaining the prices at which two or three well-known manufacturers at home could turn out t he engine in question. The result was t hat t he E nglish manufacturers wanted £1,800 for an engine for wh ich we were getting £ 1,200,

f. o. b., at Melbourne, an

higher prices. Then, again, the E nglish manufactu rer conducts his business on much more costly lines t han does the Australian, and pays a great deal more in commission . At the same t ime he likes to make big profits. 2577. If local competition prevents you from obtaining high prices in your business, is it not

probable t hat it will also decrease the price of the raw mat erial in t he same way ?--No ; because only one fi rm would be likely to embark upon the production of iron. . .

2578.' It is said t hat two or three firms are willing to commen::e operations almost 1mmed1ately - Then it will be a case of the survival of th e fittest. 2579. A re you quite clear that we cannot produce pig-iron cheaply 'I-Yes. 2580. H ave you carefully considered t hat aspect of the question ?--1 went into it very fully when the Lal L al Company started some years ago, and came to the conclusiCm that pig-iron was no t worth t ouching unless limestone and coal could be obtained very cheaply. . .

2581. A re you aware that the present cost of coal is less than 3s . per ton where 1t lS suggested t hat t hese wo rks would be laid down ?-No ; but what about t he cost of labour. 25 82. Are you aware that the t otal cost of the labou r employed in producing a ton of pig-iron is only about 6s . . .

2583. Do you know that in A merica the cost of manipulatmg ttfter they reach t he

furnace is only 2s. per ton they do t hings upon a very big scale m . .

2584. Even if t he cost were increased to 4s. or 6s. per ton, do you thmk 1t would matenally interfere with the success of the industry ?-It has been tried in Tasmania, and failed. 2585. But there are t he facts. What have you to say regardmg Well, I have had a

good deal to do with estimates which have not been realized. 2586. These are th e estimates which have been submitted by Mr. Sandford, and the Government geologist s of the various States. They have been checked in every way bJ: experts, and you still think that the cost of labour in A ustralia would prevent t he successful estabhshmeut of the mdustry ?-I do. · h h

25 87. To what labour do you refer ?- To the labour employed throughout. Every t1me t at t e ore is transferred from one hand to another its cost is increased. _

2588. Do you know that when it reaches th e furnace it is not handled at all ?-But the producm have to be handled afterwards. 2589. You have not inquired what would b e the C?· t of the_ coal or limestone necessary to the undertaking ?-I did go into that matter many years ago m co nuexwn w1th the Lal Lal Company, but I h ave not studied it in regard to the New South_Wales depos1ts.

2590. It is only your opinion as an outs1der?- Yes. 2591. What iron do you That comes from Scotland.

2592. I s it better than the Aro.encao. 1ron 1-I thmk so ; we have tried the American.

·'

R G. Middleton, 3rd June, 1903. 126

2593. Y ou do not think that this industry can be established for some time to come ?-It can be established, but I do not think it can be made a commercial success unless it is given a higher measure of protection t han 10 per cent. F rom 15 t o 20 per cent. protection would be required. 2594. Would you r10t oppose the imposition of such a duty t he measure of protection afforded to us were co rrespondingly increased, it would merely resolve itself into a matter of taking the money ou t of one hand, and putting it into another.

259 5. You do not believe t hat t he operation of a duty would make t he raw material ·Jheaper ?-No. Of course, where one can employ skilled labour, he gets t he brains of one man as against those of another. I could give instances in which one fi rm has made a profit, whilst another firm engaged in precisely similar work has suffered a loss. In work such as ours we try to obtain t he best men, and do not stick at an extm shilling a day in order to get t hem.

2596. B y Jlfr. Ki1·wan.-Do you export any machinery?- W e manufactured the fi rst engine which the Great Cobar Company had. W e have sent several ot her engines to New South .. Wales, and quite a number to W e tern A ustralia. 2597 . B ut have you sent any to places outside t he Commonwealth ?-No.

2598. Do you send as many to ·w estern Australia now as you did formerly 2599. "'Whe n did you have the greatest demand for yo ur machinery from ' Vestern About six or seven years ago. 2600. W as there not a d uty of 5 per cent. upon machinery operating in W est ern Australia at t hat t im e am not sure.

2601. At the period of wh ich you speak you were able to compete wit h the exports from Eng .. land ?-Yes. 26 0:?. Did you make money out of those transactions 1-We did not lose anything, but t he local competition was so keen that we co ul d not obtain the :same prices as t he British manufacturers were getting. We were simply "taking it out " of ourselves and our machinery. c.,• ,_· ..

2603. H ow do you explain the decline of trade with vVestern A ustralia, seeing t.hat you now have t he advantages of [nter .. State free .. t rade, and a duty of 127 per cent . is not the trade to be

done. 26 04. B ut is not the quantity of machinery imported into Western A ustralia as large now as it was six years ago mentioned six years !LS approximately the period of which I speak. I could mention one fi rm which a few ago employed 300 or 400 men, but which to .. day does not employ anything like t hat number. The same remark is applicable to ::Hartin a nd Co. , of Gawler, South Aus ..

tralia. 2605. Notwithstanding t hat the duty upon the imported products has been increased, and that t he internal rates have disappeared, yo ur trade with Western Australia has decreased?-Y es; because there is no demand fo r it. It is of no use sending stuff to W estern Australia unless· it is ordered.

2606. But within t he last six years t he imports tc Western A ustralia have not decreased do not know t he reason of that. Of co urse for t he t reatment of t he slimes in the vVest ern St at e a lot of machinery has been impol'ted from Germany and A merica. Possibly t hat may be the explanation, but I know t hat there has been a falling off in t he demand for locally made machinery.

2607. B y 1lfr. Jlfaugm·.-When the special orders of which you spoke were placed, had you to compete with the old coun try?- W hen things were booming in w· estern Australia t he mining companies commenced t o impor t t heir machinery from England. 2608. Your reason for saying t hat if a duty of 10 per cent. were imposed it would be added t o t he price paid by the consumer for t he manufact ured article is thrtt there would be no Y Ps .

2609. If competit ion should take place you do not think that the duty would of necessity be added 7-N ot necessarily unless t here were a ring. 26 10. W it h free competition then t he duty is not added to the price '?-No. 26 11 . If a 10 per cent. duty were imposed upon iron, and the tax upon t he manufactured article were increased in a similar ratio, would you favour t he attempt to develop this indust ry 7-I think t hat we ought to develop it if possible. There is no doubt that it would be a good thing for us if Australia could produce iron for t he price at which it can be imported.

26 12. Would t here be any advantage conferred if you could obtain your iron supplies n earer home instead of having to import from such great distances '?-No ; the cable is very freely used now .. a .. days in connexion with business matters. 2613. What about the freight charges freight from Melbourne to Fremantle is more than t hat from London to F remantle.

26 14. In your b usiness t he V ictorian manufacturers have a prohibition in that the Government stipulate that t he locomotives must be made within t he State 1- Y es . 26 15. Ot herwise would a duty of 12! per cent . be adequate'i---No. 26 16. Y ou would have no chance of competing at all

26 17. Why per cent. represents only the difference between t he hours of labour

worked in England as against Australia, and at Home the employers pay less wages . 26 18. Unless you are protected by the means of the impositifDll of an adequate duty, or by the prohibition which is contained in t he contract you could not carry on 7-Not unless the wages were reduced.

26 19. By Afr. Ki1·wan.-H ow did you compet e for t he W est ern Australian trade, seeing that the freight between Melbou rne and F remantle is higher than between London and Fremantle 1-It was simply a question of local competition. 2620. A s a 1nat ter of fact the wo rk which you were doing did not pay was nothing

in it.

262 1. Y ou could have disposed of your commodity in West ern Australia at a lower price if it had not been for the operation of a duty 'I-Y es. 2622. By Mr. J oseph Cook.-Are you in favour of the Bonus Bill passing in its present form 1-I do not think that is a fair question to put· to me.

127

J oscph Vaughan, sworu and examined.

2623. 13y :lb-. L. E. Groom.-What is yo ur· occupation ?-I am a.n iron master. 262 L ·where do you carry on busine,.,s '1-At South Melbourne. \Vhat i;; your raw m:tterial ?-Scr:tp iron.

1553

262 G. \ Vhere do you get your ;; upplies?- From New Zettland, Tasmauia, Australia,

South A ustralia, ::tn d Queensland. 262 i. Do you draw a ny from phrces outside t he Comm onwealth '1- \ Vith the exception of New Zea­ land I do not. 2628. \Vhat (1uanti t ies do you get from New Zeala11d ?--About 400 or 500 tons a yea,r perhaps

a little more. '

26 29 . D o you make angle irou ?- Angle, T , ba t·, and shoeing iron. In fact I manufacture iron of every description. 26 30. Do you under;;ta.nd t.he proposals of t he Government ?-I h:we not gi ven them much thought, but I think I und ' t·.· tand them.

. If those prop?sals we re carried out do you think that the iron industry could be established

m Australia 1-I do not thmk so, because the populntion is not large enough. 2632. H ave you gon into that quest ion ?-Very carefully. 2633. Have you seen the fi gures of Mr. Coghlan with reference to the quantity of iron imported in to the Commonwealt h 7-J\'l y opinion is tha t no three or four firm s could undert

the whol e of t hose imports. 263-t-5. That is to .·tty, the articl es consumed in Australia would require for t heir manufacture a larger establishment than tho whole of the States cou ld employ ?-Ye8. 'l.'ake the production of rritl­ vanized iron for example. That in itself would employ a very large establishment. Again, the that wou ld be employed i n its manufacture would be in the Cltseof black sheets.

2636. You thin k that no single es tablishment could manubcture th e articles which are annually imported 7-Th lLt so . 26=-! 7. Have you a ny id c11 of the consumption of steel mib in Australia ?-The annual consumption

would represent ttbout one wee k's work for a rail mill. There is a rail mill in America which turns out 2,500 tons per day. 2G38 . You do no t t hink it feasible that 1tny industry fo r the manufacture of iron can be success­ fully established iu Australia?- ' ot yet awhile.

2639. \Vhat about the position in Canada ?- The position there is as bttd as is our own. The industry is es tablished there just about to the same ex t ent as it is here. \Ve are making everything from scrap-iron, and importing puddle, bar ·, and billets. 2640. JJy Llf?·. J oseph Cook. - Y ou do not regard ;;tatistics a s of much value

2641. Have yo u many men in your employ at present ?-About 80. 26 42. Are they in constant employmen t'I--No. They worked only about 2G weeks last year. 2643. \Vhy1-Because we cannot compete with Belgium. There is a great deal of Belgium steel coming into Australia, and it can be landed here cheaper than we can make it. 2644. Do you think there should be a duty imposed upon it ?-'l'he1·e should b e a duty of from to 15 per cent., and the industry should be allowed to grow with the people of the country. ·

2645. Hy Jlfr. il£auge1 ·. - ·what is the difference between the wages paid in Belgium, and those paid at South Melbourne ?-It represents about 200 per cent . 2646. By J,b· . Joseph Cook.-How do you know that ?-Because I am aware of the wages that are being paid. We are paying 1s. lltd. fo r what is don e for 3i:d. in Belgium.

2647. Can you gi ve the Commission any documentary evidence in support of that statement 1-It would not be fair to do so because our customers would at once look out for cheaper markets. 2648. By ilfr. L. E. G1 ·oom. - Have you considered the nature of the deposits of iron ore in Australia ?-I have not made myself familiar wit.h that matter, because I think that the country is altogether too young to su pport an iron industry. At the same time, it is undeniable t hat plenty of iron

ore is available in A ustralia. For instance, Phillip I sland, where I live, is half a block of iron. 26±9. By ilh. Joseph Cook.- vVb er e is Phillip I sland 7-In Westernport Bay. 2650. H as any of t hat iron been subjected to amtlysis by the State authorities ?-I do not think so. 2651. By Y.b-. L. E . G1·oom. - Has it been brought ·under their notice 1-It not of s ufficient Yalue to warrant any notice being taken of it for the next 100 years. .

2652. If a 10 per cent. duty were imposed upon wl:at effect would 1t have upon the

manufacturers w1w use it as their raw material ?-It would stm ply g 1.ve them the markets. 2653. By 11!1- . the internal competition wo':Jd keep dowr: price 1-Certainly.

Iron would be dearer in Melbourne to-day if we were not engaged I ll manufacturmg 1t . \Vhen my works are in full swing they turn out 100 tons per week. 2654. You have rolling mills really?-Yes. 2655. You are of opinion that the operation of a 10 per cent. duty would encourage manufacture

to such an extent as to keep prices down 1-Y es. . .

2656 . How long have you felt the competition of Belgmm ?-Ever smce I haYe been here. We contemplate pulling clown our works and r emoving them South _Afnca. .

2G57. \.Yill you have competition there1-The ra1lway fretght to Johannes burg IS £2 l7s. per ton and we purpose establishina our works in Johannesburg. ' 2658. The freight there represent t he of your protective duty ?-Yes.

2659. ·wm the men whom you now employ go wtth yo u 7_ - W c shall_ of them .

2660. You contemplate r emoving solely because of Belglllm compet1t10n 7-1hat 1s so. We have t he most modern plant to be found in th e Australian States. .

2661. By Jlh. J oseph Cook. - HaYe you seen the Esk Bank plant 7-:-I made1t. I made the first mils that were turned out t here. They would not have rnanufactured a smgle l'atl there 1f I had not landed in the country and shown them how to do it. That was 26 years ago last March. 2662. vVhy did you not stop at Lithgow ?-There was nothing t o induce me to stop.

1

(Taken ctt Melbourne.)

THURSDAY, 11T H J U NE, 1903.

Commissioners P1·esrmt:

'l'he H ight H on. C. C. KIN OSTO N, Chaim1n,n; Sir Edward Draddon, M r. K irwan,

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Mauger,

Mr. ·winter Cooke, Mr. McCay,

Mr. Fullet·, Mr. "\Vatson.

William \Vrigh t, engineer, Melbourne, Sl\·orn and examined. 2663. B y the Chainnan. - H ave you had experience in co::mexion wi t h t he Iron ind ustry \­ I have had eighteen years' experience a t lVIiddlesbrough and in the L eeds district. For four years I was engaged as a draughtsman in getting out details for iron sm elting, such as boilers, &c. ; for four years I was in the employ of Thos. V aughan and Co., makers of pig iron, who used to t um out som ething like fiv e thousand tons a week ; while for t en years I was ma,nager of the \Vest Yorkshire Iron and Coal

Company's Iron Works. 2664. Then I may take it that you are intimately acquainted with all that is necessary for the iron industry understand the manufacture of pig iron and steel, alt hough I have had no practicaJ experience in the manufacture of steel.

2665. You are intimately acquaint ed wit h the manufacture of pig iron ?--Y es. 2666. Has your experience been confined to England '!-Yes. 2667. How long is it since you were t here ?--I have been seventeen years in the colonies ; for ten years prior to that I was acting as manager of the West Yorkshire Iron and Coa,l Company's Iron Works.

2668. H ave you had any experience in Australia ?- I have had no actual experience in the industry, but I have given considerable thought t o t he subject. 2669. I n the absence of any es tablish ed iron indust ry in A ustralia you have had no further practical experience ?-None whatever.

2670. You have bee n asked to consider the question of the successful establishment of the iron industry in Australia ?-Yes, and I have done so. 267 1. ·will you give us your views ?-I think the establiRhment of the industry wo uld tend greatly to the adva,ntage of the country. I ndeed, it would be of so much benefit to Australia that the country should be prepared to assist it.

2672. Will you indicate generally what you consider wou ld be the benefits to the country ?--It would give employment to thousands now out of work. 2673. I believe that a very large proportion of the expenditure connected with the iron industry relates to labour ?- Yes.

26 7 4. And how do you think the establishment of the industry here would affect the con sum ed - The price of iron would eventually go down, but I do _not believe that the reduction wo ul d take place immediately upon the establishment of the industry. I believe that other companies would start, :1nd that the competition would keep down prices.

2675. Ultimately competition would tend to a reduction in price, but you do not anticipate a reduction in the first instance?-No. 2676. vYhat is the price of pig iron in Australia to-day?- I cannot say. I have had no occasion to purchase any, but I believe it is about £4 per ton.

2677. Wha,t was the cost of producing pig iron in the works in which you were engaged 1-\Ve made hematite and common iron, but unfortunately I have lost my note-book containing information on that subject. The common iron was about 37s. per ton, but I cannot remember the price paid for the hematite delivered, so that I cannot speak definitely as to that.

2678. What is the difference between the price of the two classes '!-We made the hematite for conversion into steel, and supplied it to a numbet·· of well-known firms in Sheffield. I think that t he difference in price between t he common and hematite iron is about 20s. per ton. 2679. What is the difference between the two 1-I have some analyses that were made, which will probably be of assistance to the Commission .

2680. What is the nature of the difference 1--It relates mostly to the phosphorus. 268 1. Phosphorus is an undesirable quality in iron for steel making 1-That and -sulphur are the most injurious qualities. 2682. By Mr. Watson. -Do the analyses to which you r efer relate to the iron as made by you into pig iron?- Y es. They are the analyses of what I call ordinary pig iron and of hematite suitable for the manufacture of steel by t he acid process. They are as follows :-

ARDSLEY Pro IRON.-October, Carbon graphite Combined carbon Silicon Sulphur .. .

Phosphorus Iron Manganese Copper Vanadium and t itanium

1878.

·824 1·309 ·128 ·828 93·94

·585 ·0 62 ·146

100·642

ARDSLEY PIG IRON. - December, 1878. Carbon graphite 2·852

Combined carbon ·313

Silicon 2·972

Sulphur ... ·123

P hosphorus ·758

Iron 92·325

Manganese ·382

Titanium... ·250

Copper traces

99·975

129

1555

William Wright 11th J\me, 1903

BARROW H EMATI'l'E, 4-FORGJ> P IG IRON. _:_ AunsLEY BEssE MER No. 1.- 1877. 13th October, 1877.-Maryport. Graphitic carbon . . . . . . . ..

Combined carbon Silicon Sulphur ...

Phosphorus Iron Manganese Copper

2·665 1-105 ·9 80 ·263

·055

94·220 ·360 traces

99·648

Graphitic carbon Combined carbon Silicon Sulphur ...

Phosphorus Manganese Copper Titanium

3·740 ·261 3·220 ·0 22

·064 ·15 8 traces ·1 46

99 ·741

2683. By the Chainnan.-These are analyses of what you call ordinary pig iron, and also analyses of the hematite 1-Y es, suitable for steel ma,nufacture Ly the acid process. 2684. The chief difference between the two relates to the phm;phorus 1-That is the main difference.

26 G. In t he ordinary pig iron the phosphorus was ·828, and in the hematite iron ·055 and ·064 1 - Yes.

26 G. Y ou ·ay that t he difference in price is about £1 per ton 1-I cannot say exactly. W e had our own common iron mines in Lincolnshire, and we used to get the ore delivered for about 5s. per ton. That, however, was ordinary iron unfit for steel-making purposes . 2687. What quality of ore was that 7-I will show the analyses of it. When I first went to the company, we were using limestone, and we had two mines where silicious and calcareous ores were obtainable. B y working the two ores mixed with clay-b:1ndstone from the colliery, we did without any limestone for flu xing. The analyses of the 0res which we obtained from om· Lincolnshire mines were as

fo ll ows:-

.F.l0501.

CLAXBY STONE, APRIL, 1880.

Silica Alumina P eroxide of iron Oxide of manganese Lime .· ..

Magnesia Sulphur .. .

Phosphoric acid Loss by calcination, water, and carbonic acid

Total"

Moisture Metallic iron as received . .. Metallic iron in dry ore at 212° Fahr.

TINGLEY CLAy BANDSTONES, DECEMBER,

Black Il

Silica. 9·7 0

Protoxide iron 39·31

Peroxide iron 1·97

Alumina 5·44 ... 1·34 Protoxide manganese Lime 5·1 2

Magnesia ... 2·38

Sulphur ·05 ... 1·07 Phosphoric acid Carbonic acid 28 ·60

Combined water 2·2 1

Moisture ·9 5 .. . 2·2 1 Coaly matter Totals 100·35

Metallic iron 31·96

Loss by calcination ... 29·60

I ron in calcined ore 45 ·92

J{

1875.

14·67 8 ·49 45·53 ·57

5·12 2·57 ·06 ·38 22 ·52

99·89

6·88 31·87 34·22

Cockle Bed.

16·50 19·09 ·95 8·30

·97

18 ·68 1"1 8 ·30 (s ulphuric acid) ·75 25 ·00

2·6 3 ·65 4·97

99·97

15·52 31·15 22-53

jVright,

11th June, 1003. 130

TINGLEY BLACJ

Silica Alumina Peroxide iron Red oxide manganese Limo Magnesia .. .

Phosphoric acid Loss by calcination Sulphur Metallic iron in raw stone Metallic iron in calcined stone . .. Clay

B R Bamj.

17·74 6·42 36·31 ·59

5·36 3·16 ·9 4 27·17

trace 25 ·42 34·90 25·12

Cockle Bed.

8·61 3·32 28·63 1·54 21·85

1·10 ·75 33·60 trace 20 ·0 4 30·17

12·46

Small Pip,

10 ·3 2 5· 08 46·13 1·77

4· 07 2·09 1·04 29·23

trace 32 ·29 45·64 15)0

2688. The iron contents Yes ; the cockle hetl )Vas the namely, 19·09. '!.'hat,

however, was very good stone. It was full of cockle shells, which partly flu xed the silica. 2689. The cockle bed, although low in iron, was useful 011 accoupt of its fluxing qualities 7- Yes, it was full of cockle shells. 2690. And you could lay it down at 5s. per ton 7-That was rather a high figure, perhaps, but it was the price at which they gave it to me to work out. H ere are the analyses of the stones which I used for making the hematite-

Protoxide of iron Peroxide of iron Oxide manganese Silica Alumin:t Lime ...

Magnesia Carbonic acid Phosphoric acid Sulphur Water, combined Moisture

Metallic iron

liARD LINDAL ORE HEMATJ'fE.

FLETCHER AND HoDGE

Peroxide of iron Protoxide of iron · · Silica .1\.lumina Oxide Manganese Lime Magnesia Phosphoric acid Sulphur Carbonic acid ·water

Metallic iron

Protoxide of iron P eroxid e of iron Silica Alumina Oxide Manganese Lime ...

Magnesia Phosphori c acid Carbonic acid Sulph uric acid Moisture

Metallic iron

SOFT LINDAL ORE, H EMATITE, 1878.

·52

82 ·54 ·30 10·85 1·30

2· 14 ·39 1'12 ·05 traces

1·00 ·50

100·71

57 ·77 per cent.

58 ·0 3 traces 24 ·95 9·65 traces

2· 77 ·37 ·02

traces 2·18 1·1 2

100·11

41 ·42 per cent.

traces 80·66 H!·20 2· 02 traces

2·92

·04 fJ· ll

·JO ·41

100·07

56·4 7 per cent.

1557

l3i Wil!iqm Wrig·h t 11th June, 1903.

:369 1. Were these ores obtained from your own mines 1-No; t he hematite ores came fr-om mines whi ch were not our own. W e obLained them from the Whitehaven and Barrow districts. 2692. At what price were t hey laid dowu at t he min e ·?- -1 c;Lnnot for J have mislaid my

note-book. 'l'hey varied as regnrcl s t he iron co ntents from 57·77 to 1 -l ·.J:l per ce nt. :MHl3. You have heard Ho me of the evid ence which has been taken bv the Comm i:ssiun relat.i1·e to iron ores 7-Yes. 1 read so me of the evid ence relating to the iron of Australia .

269"" . H ow do yo u find that Australia is supplied wit.h rnater·ial for iron manufactur13 7-From th e analyses t hat I h rwe seen t hE>y are not co mplete. T here see ms to be 1•ery little iron ore sui table for t lw acid process. ·

. 2695. \ Vhat do you mean by t he ft_ cid 7--Tn th e

Iron ftr e used, such as tho on e I have give n last . The bottet· of ore-oro that iH low in

phosphorus iH s uitable for the acid proces:; . The OI'e is melted, aud put into t he conver ter, and blown. 1t decarbonises, and there is a cert

process to be used . 2696. ·what perce ntage of phosphot·us disqualifies ?--Out· contmct with the Shetl ield f1rrn s was t hat it should be not more than ·O G. 0 casionally we got fL litt le high er, but t hey did not allow that state of rLffa.irs to remain long without letting us know about it; ·O!i rt rt d ·06 WfLS the average.

2697. A s regards t hose wl1ich you used, and which exceeded ·O G, how did you d eal with t hem?­ T n one of the analy es t he perce ntage waH ·02. W e had to mix i t to keep it down to t hat. 2698. I am not referring to t he hemat.ite7-T hcy co uld be co n ve rted in to steel by the basic process.

2699. \ Vhat is t he difference betwee n the cost of the two 7-Sir I saac Lowthian Bell ,

an emine ra t authority, states t hat the d ifi'erence between l Os. and 12s. Perhaps it would be as well to explain t he difference betw<'e n t he acid and the basic process. In t he acid process the conver ter is lined with sili cious ftr·ebricks; in t he basic pi·ocess the co n ve rter: is lined with dolomite. The stone is burnt and ground up, and a certain amoun t of tar put wi t h it to ma.ke it adhesive. 'l'he bricks rwe th en burnt, and the co nverter is lined with them. Metal wi th a llwge percentage of ph osphorus can be put into a

co n vorter prepared in t hi s way, r111d blown exactly fL S i t is by the acid process. Lime is put on the top of t he charge and blown. The lime tLbsorbs the silica, and also th e phosphorie acid, with th e res ult t hat t he residual is equal to the best iron or t he best st eel made from the bes t iron. 2700. By Jl h. Watson .- It is the more expensi ve method ?-I have copied from t he 'Afanufactu?'e of b·on a1ul Steel an analysis of steel rails made from iron prepared by the two processes, by Sir

I saac Lowthian Bell. According to that analysis, the rails made from iron prepared by the blJ.sic process seems to be the better of the two, although made from the inferior a rticle. 270 l. By the Chait•man.- The resul t is better 7-According to that analysis. 270 2-3. The pure iron from t he basic process was 98·1 while that obtained from t he

acid process was 98 ·09 2 7-Yes. 't'here is a note explaining t he difference. Tho extract is as

follows:-Co nsecutive l].nalyses n1nde in the North -E astem R::Li lway Co m pany's laboratory of twenty steel rails made _fro m hema.tite iron :- Average- Ca.rbon, ·452; sil ipo n , ·105; s ulphur, ·121 ; phosph orus, ·052 _;. 1'178;

98·092. •rwenty steel rails m a.cle from Clevela nd iron by bas ic process-Carbon, ·450 ; si liCon, ·OB!'i ;. sulph ur, ·09:..; ph osphorus, ·054; ma nga nese, 1·201; iron, 98 ·13!'i . 'fhe sum of th e sili con s ulphur a. ncl phosphorus IS only ·214 per cent., or ne;wly 30 per el) nt. less t!mn t hat wh ich a ppea.rs in th e previous table.

2704. I suppose that with this better res ult the rail made from that iron would be superior to t he other ?- The difference is very slight. .

2705. Would it make any appreciable difference in the value 7-H the a r:alyses w_ore to t he pu1·chaser he would naturally choose the better of tho two if there was no m t he pnce.

2706. There would be no substantial difference in the price 7-I do not t lnnk so. 2707. When was this co mparison made 7--About 20 years ago. .

2708. Do you keep yourself abreast of modern improvements in the ?f Iron 7-Not

particularly. I have not been interested in the matter very much of late; but I a m cogmsant of every-thing t hat is going on. . . . .

2709. Do you think that t he quantity of phosphorus in A ustrah an Iron rmsoR r:ny undes tm_bl e ditll.culty in t he way of iron manufacture 7-vVhen I said just now t h ere was very h_tt le A ustra!I,n.n i1·on suitable for the acid process I should h ave made an exception of t he l-bver ores. lho

analysis of t hose ores which I have seen show that it iH quite good er;tou:;:h for the process. . 2710. By Si1• Edward Braddon.-You have seen t he Tasmaman u·on but I have

read of them. . . . ('f , , •

2711. By the Chairman.--H ave you noticed that to the ev idence at pa,_ e of om

report there are a good many ores in New South 'Wales whiCh have_ a less percentage tlran 06 of P!10S­ phorus 7-I see that the analyses of the Cadian . iron sh_ow the percentage of to he ·01.3 to

·05 1 but t here is on.ly a small qu11ntity of that u·on available. . . .

' 2712. By M1-. Watson.-The es tim ,tted minimum IS tons7 -:-:Y es, hut there IS

a note setting forth that "the .g reat. bulk of this ore obJeCtiOnable quantities of copper an

while considering in regard to this question of 7-I t hmk t hn.t o9,000,0000 or

GO 000 000 tons ouaht t o be ample to warra nt the sta.rtmg of Iron works.

' '27 14. Would you require 60,000,000 tons7-- ·I think no_t.

2715. What would be sufficient in view of the Austrahan reqmremeuts ?- I ro n works luwe ve1 7 long lives, and when establishing works it would b e n.dvantageous to have n goorl suppl y to loo k forwa rd to. K z

William Wri o·h t I 11 t h June, fooi. 132

2716. But do you suggest any quantity as b eing necessary?- If there were 30,000,000 tons for example at Blythe River, I should s:-ty that such a supply would be ample justification for the erection of iron works. 27 17. Would 20,000,000 be sufficient?-There is very little iron in Australia which would be suitable for the acid process, with the exception of t he Blythe R iver ores, so t hat if t he deposit t here ran out one would have a small chance of obtaining iron suitable for t he acid process elsewhere. The difference between one and th e other, however, is only in regard to the use of lime.

27 18. You recognise t hat t he necessary ore could be collected from various part> 1- Yes, for either process. ·

27 19. I s it not t he rule in England to import a good deal of foreign ore?-Yes, from Bilboa, in Spain. 2720. What proportion of the iron used in England is of foreign origin 1--I cannot sa.y; but the proportion is very considerable. Some companies in the South of England have boats constantly bringing it over.

2721. Have you read lVIr. Brown's evidence in regard to t he analyses of iron which h e saw at the Ironknob and the Iron Monarch ?- I see t hat the percentage of phosphoric twid contained in the ore referred to in question 868 is 0·04. ·That would be suitable ore. In fact all these ores are. I do not think it would be possible to work an ore like t hat referred to by lVIr. Brown, wh ich contains 1·19 of silica. It would not make sufficient slag to keep the fu rnace open.

2722. Could you not add anything to it ?- You could have less pure ore mixed wi th it. 2723. Are you looking at the answer given t o question 868 'I--I shall do so. I find that the silica mentioned t here is so little that it would not be possible to keep t he furnace open . vVe co uld correct the fault, however, by using inferior ore with i t .

2724. You think these two ores co uld be used ?-You wo ulfll have to use aluminous ore with it . 2725. vVhat do you say as to the answer given to question 89 1 ?-In answer to that question, two results are given. Do not bother about th e "nodules from the surface." 2726. Would t he ore referred to in t he second analysis be good enough ?-Yes . That containing only 0 ·06 of phosphoric acid is certainly good enough.

2727. And in the other particulars as well, is it also good ?- You could get enough slag in t hat case. It would mix very well with the pure ore. I t hink it will be found t hat t he percentage of silica in some of my ores, t he analyses of which I ha.ve given, is also very high. 2728. Will you look at t he answer to question 904 ?- Yes, t he ore mentioned there has a still lower percentage of silica.

2729. Look at t he percentage of phosphorus also. Would that ore be goQd enough ?-There is no doubt about t hat . . 27 30. '!.'he ores spoken of in question 917, have too high a percenta.ge of phosphorus ?-Y es, t hey are all too nigh.

2731. All too for steel purposes ?- By the acid process. 2732. By the basic process you would overcome the difficulty of the excess of phosphoric acid?­ y es, t hey could all be utilized by t he basic process. 2733. In view of these analyses, do you still think that there is not a fair prospect of the estab­ lishment of iron industry here 1-I do not see any thing to prevent its establishment. If the manufacturers could not make the steel by one process they could manufacture it by the other, although, of course, t here

would be a difference of lOs. or 12s. per ton in the cost. 2734. Then as regards quantity and quality of our ores, you consider that there is a fair prospect of the establishment of the iron industry in A ustralia ?-- There ought t o be. Have you studied the matter sufficiently to be able to say what would be the cost of establishing t he industry here ?-I have n o data to go upon, with the exception of the figures relating to the Blythe River deposits.

2735. The Blythe River ore it is said could be delivered for 3s. 6d. per ton on board ship?-Then there would be the freight to Sydney, which is not mentioned. The manufacturers in Canada are bringing iron ore from Bell I sland, which is loaded on board ship for 45 cents. The freight to Sydney, Nova Scotia, represents another '.!5 cents, and unloading 10 ce nts, so that it is actually delivered at t he Sydney works for 1 dollar per ton. I take these figures from the Engineering J11agazine, which sets fo rth that the ore can be fed to the furnaces for 1 dollar 25 cents per ton.

2736 . By ilh. Jo seph Cook. - For 1 dollar 25 cents per ton ?--Yes, I believe it is found in a laminateil state, and can be obtained ve ry easily. 2737. It would have to be?-It is certainly a low figure. 2738. By lrh. Watson.-What is t he distance from Bell I sland to the works ?-The passage from Bell I sland to Sydney occupies 36 hours. ·

2739. By JJh. Joseph Cook.-Is the ore close to the point of shipment?-It must be if it can be put on board for the price named. I have a comparison of true prices in England, America, and Canada, taken from the Engineering Magazine. 27 40. By the Chairman .--What is t he date of the magazine ?-I copied the extract from an issue of about twelve months ago. It shows t hat the total cost of production of pig iron in Canada is £1 3s. per ton. In the United States i t is £ 1 lOs. per ton, and in Great Eritain £2 lOs. per ton.

2741. By Jv[r. Joseph Cook.-I s that the nett cost in each case. ?-Yes. The extract which I mentioned shows ho w the estimate is arrived at for Bell Island. ore (Sydney cost), namely :_:_ 1·8 tons, 1 dollar 80 cents ; 1·25 coke, 1 dollar 80 cents; ·75 limestone, 40 cents ; labour and incidentals, 1·50 dollars ; total, 5·50 dollars.

27 42. By the Chairman .- You have formed an opinion as to t he establishm ent of the iron industry here, and also in regard to the r equisites necessary for its successful establishment. What about the · flux ?-I understand that limestone can be obtained very ch eaply close to the Blythe R iver deposits. It can be obtained cheaply.

· 27 43. It is obtainable in many places '1--Yes. 27 44. Do you t hink there is sufficient demand in Australi a for iron and steel to warrant t he es t-ablishment of works here?-Yes, works of the size proposed by the English syndicate.

133

15-59

William Wright, 11th June, 1903.

2745. Y ou allude to the Bl}' Lhe River ?- Y os.

t l1iuk.

150,000 ton;,; a year would be utilized, I

ton.

27-16. Do you think that we should be able _ to export ;,;uccessfully ?- I am afraid not at 80s. per

2i4 7. But what is your estimn,te of the co;,;t of production of iron here do not know. There a re. some. in . Mr. for exampl e; the cost at 35s. per ton,

while Mr. Jaquetsestimate IS £2 IS. td. I tlnnk that 1\Il'. Jaquets estimate I S nearer the mark 27 48. By 1if?·. Joseph Cook .- Why ?-Because of the labour question. I do not think that the manufacturers out h ere ha.ve given suflicieut attent ion to that phase of the question . . 27 49. D o you refer to Mr. Sandford 7-Y es. At the last place which I managed we used to make l ,500 or 1,.600 tons a week. My labour, including the putting of the material iuto bins, and

I t he ore mto the trucks, cost from 4;,;. 3d. to 4,;,;, Gel . per ton. 'l'hat represented all the labour

used m the manufacture of iron. The bulk of my labour n1 e 3s. 4d. per day of twelve hours. Here t he wages are more than double that amount. T hat would co nvert my labour cost of 3s. 4d. per day into 7s., and my co t of 4s. Gd. per ton in to , y?u no es timate of the cost of la?our in th e case of Sydney (Nova Scotia)?-Yes.

The e ·tnnate IS 6s. 3d. per· ton . In Engla.nd, agam, we worked ouly two shifts per day. H ere there would be three shifts, so that the la.bour would stand at 13s. 6d. agaiust my 4s. 6d. per ton. 275 1. !-Jy Jlb-. JfcCay.-vVhen was it that your workmeu worked twelve hours >L day ?-That was se venteen or e1gh teen years ago. ·

2752. vVh ere was this ?- ear Leeds. 2753. Ry the Chai1·man. - Their pay was equal to a 11 hour ?- Yes. 275 11. Do you know how wages in t ho iron indusLry ·in G rcat Bt·itaiu to-day compare with the wages which prevailed at t he time of which you speak ?- I obse rve that h. J l'I.CJ UCt, in his evidence, allows 3s. for the cost of labour on hematite in Middlesb rough . When I W

At Thos. Vaughan and Co.'s works it used to cost us from 3s. Gd. to. 3s. lOd. per ton. 2755. By .ll11·. Watson.--I s it not a fact that latterly a numbe r· of have used

machin I'Y very largely in their work ?-It is, so far n.s the States a re concerned, but I have not heard of much improvement in that respect in England. 27 56. Would not any works established hare adopt the latest methods of lmndling ?-Certainly. 2757 . In that case the cost of labour wou ld not necessarily be as much as you said now?-

No; but in Canada (Bell Island) the cost is 6s. 3d. per ton for labour. . 2758. By Jlh. J oseph C:uok.-- Do you know that it i:; only 2}; . pet· Lon in Carneg ie';,; works 'I­ I have seen a st>ttement to that effect in the evidence. 2759. Do you know what a re tho wages in America ?- It is said in this Committee's report and evid ence that i t is equal to 2s . pe1· ton. I cannot say how t hat compares with my wage of 3-;td. per hour.

2760. Are wages in England better now than they were at the time of which you speak were not so bad when I left England. I cannot say whether wages h ave increased there; but the price of pig iron appears to be the same, for I notice that Scotch iron costs £2 16s. per ton. 2761. How do the wages paid in America with those which prevail in England ?-I

c.1.n not say; but the total cos t per ton is only 2s. 2762. But that may be the result of the use of machinery. Do you know how the English and American wages rates compare 1-I do not. 2763. Remarkable labour-saving improvements have been made in late ?-I have seen drawings of appliances fo r charging the furnaces, fo r other work of t hat descnpbon.

2764. Have you been to America or Canada ?-No. .

2765. By M1·. Kirwan.-Is the British pig iron superior to that produced m Canada and .the United States 1- I cannot say. I have had no dealings in pig iron from Canada and the Umted

States. 2766. By jJ£1·. Joseph Coolc.-You say that you prefer Mr. J aquet's est im ate of cost to that supplied by Mr. Sandford, and you mention tha.t the cost of cok e in Belle I sland is Gs. per ton ?- Yes. 2767. Can you say, then, why Mr. J aquet's estimate sh ould be 15s. per ton ?-vVh y can we not

make coke here as cheaply as they do in . . .

2768. Do you think M r. J aquet is right 1-I do not thmk t hat he IS absolu tely correct, but I think his estimate is nearer the mark t han that given by Mr. Sandford. 2769 . Does t hat remark apply to his estimate as to the cost of coke ?- In (New South

vVales) they would make it for 9s. or lOs. per ton. I managed coke works at Bulb for fi ve years.. I erected them and mana()'ed them. \ 11/e used to con vert coal into coke for 12s. per ton. But there IS a · lot of loss in washing because much of t he bituminous matter runs away with the shale. To make it unwashed, as most people do, would cos t about 9s. per ton. . . .

2770. Would the unwashed a.rticle be suitable for smeltmg 'I-I have never used coke so high m ash. I have b urned without washino· and it has come to about 16 per cent. of ash. , as against 12 per cent. for washed coal. But a little ash would be neith er here nor there in smelting iron for furnaces. A great amount of silica with the ore is objectionable. It produce: what known _ as That

is to say, the silica is converted into silicon and absorbed by the pig. Tl11s glaz ed Iron I S _unsmtable for co nversion into wrought iron, or for foundry purposes generally. 2771. Then it would be necessary to wash the coke ?-Y es. J do not think that 12} per cent. of ash wo uld be objectionable. , . . . . .

2772. In that respect you think Mr. Jaquet s est1mate 1s a h tt:e high 7- H: has estimated 2s. for calcining. Calcination, however, is only necessary wh en tho ore exists as By calcination you convert the protoxide into per?xide. In the case of the clay wluch contained very

frequent]jr iron pyrites, th e a.nalyses r h aYe quoted show the lO SS by calcmat10 n. A s a rul(), calcining is done in the open air ?-In p roperl y ki ln s, Thad ten of

them in the Yorkshire Company.

William Wright, lith June, 1003. 134

2774-5. They do the work in the open air out hel'e ?-'l'ltat ::;ystem is uotfolluwed iu the l\Iidland .

2776. By J1fr. jJ ![cCay.- In l'egard to the difference in price between t he f1C id aud the basic processes, can you give us any idea of the comparative quantity made by the two processes. I s t he basic process largely used 1--It is used very extensively now, because thousands of tons of iron which were Qom;idered unsuitable for steel-making purposes are now being utilized .

2777. When that steel goes on the market is it sold at the same price as the steel produced by .the acid process 1-Yes, because it is equal to, if not better t han, the other: So far as I am aware, there is no difference in the prices. 2778. Then those who produce by the basic process at the higher cost are1 as a matter of fac t , able to sell at t he price charged for t he material produced by t he cheaper pwcess 1-In the uae ca::;e, where hematite ore is used, you make a cheap steel by a cheap process. vVhere yo u are using the common iron the cost is greater. The cost of manufacture is 1 Os . or 12s. per ton more.

2779. But do you S[L ve t hat on t he price of the ore 1-Fully. 2780. By the Chai?"?Jtan.- What is the proportion of prod uction iu England by t he two proces::;es 1 - I cannot say. I think that eventually the basic process will be most largely used. England more of the comn1on iron .

2781. A t present you tl1ink t hat the acid process is more largely utilized 7- I cannot say. It;; use will gradually diminish as the other process is more lar·gely employed . It must naturally diminish us the suitable ores are giving out. 2782. By Si1· Edwrwd Braddon.--Have you given any thought to the foreign markets which wo ul d be open to Australian iron?-I have not. I have not the sli ghtest idea of the cost of pig iron iu any of t he foreign markets. .

2783. By Jlf?·. Winter Coolce.- vVhen was your knowledge of the industry gnined is seventeen yeat·s since I gave ·up managerial work in England. 2784. Any other knowledge that you have gained has been derived by reading the evidence of others, and by perusing various books 1-Yes.

2785. Yo·u have no knowledge of recent processes 7-I do not know t hat t here ar e any very recent improvements except in regard to the mechanical appliances used in the manufacture of iron. I a1 11 tolerably well conversant with those improvements. 271::\6. H ow many years' experience did you have at home ?-Eighteen years. .

2787. By Si1· EdwcwdBmddon.-Have you any information in regard to the Blythe H.iver iron mine to j ustify your opinion as to the cost of handling the ore there have not. I only mentioned that matter because I desired to make a comparison and show what might be done there. If t he Bell I E'la nd people can deliver the ironstone at the price they say they cal?- I do not know why t he same thing should not be done by the Blythe River syndicate. A ssuming that t he Blythe River ore can be placed on board ship for 3s. 6d . per ton, we have still to consider the qu es tion of freight. It would be about 7s. per ton, so that the cost would run up to about lOs. per ton.

2788. The mine is six miles away from t he port 7-Yes. _

2789. By il1?\ Joseph Cook.-They propose to construct t heir own barges that so. 2790. By Si1· Edwa1·d Bmddon.- They are to construct their own tramway from the mine to the wharf 7- lt is impossible to get at the actual cost of production until you know _ what will be the cost of t heir 1i1atei"ial-as the limestone, and the freight. But judging from what they say they can do­ that they can put it on boa.rd ship for 3s. 6d . per ton-they should be able to make a very cheap iron.

279 1. By .iJft·. Jo seph Coole.- You say t hat the Bell Island ore is carried over a 36 hours' journey by ship for 45 cents. per ton ?-Yes. With an additionallO cents. per ton for unloading. Once it is urHoaded they can fill it stl'aight away .into the charging bins. From the statement I have quoted it seems that ore can be fed to the furnaces for 1 dollar 25 cents. per ton.

2792. That is 5d. per ton for unloading 1-Yes. 2793. By Jlfr . Watson. - At P ittsburg t hey load and unload by mechanical means, so that there is no manual handling. Do you know of a ny new process for dealing with ore containing a greater percentage of phosphorus than you spoke o£7-We have been told of a new process introduced in America by Mr. Talbot. It has bee n criticised by i1·onmasterB; manufacturers, and metallurgists, who seem "to think that the position taken up by him is a so und one ?-I a.m not acquainted with any of the details of t hat process. .

2794. If there were such a process for treating ore containing a larger percentage than ·OG of phosphorus it would made a considerable difference so far as New South vVales is co ncerned. There t he percentage of phosphorus seems tp beheavy in some cases 7-I understood that t hat process was for the utilization of iron containing too much phosphorus for t he acid process, and not sufficient for the basic

process- that it was an intermed iate one. 27 95. Yes. That touches the ore at Carcoar 7-Y es . 2796. You sttid that you thought the price vf iron would go down in A ustralia with the establishment of t he indus t1 ·y because of compet ition ·?-Y es .

279'i' . Do you mean that it will fall below the present prices referred to by yo u, viz., 80s. per ton ?-Yes. I do so for the reason that if Mr. J aquet's estimate of cost, namely, £2 7s. 7d. per ton is conect, an immense profit will be derived by selling the iron at 80s. per ton. If Mr. Sa.ndford's estimate of cost, namely 35s. per ton be correct, t he profit will be still greater. In either event the price is sure to come down . Many people would be satisfied with a profit of 5s. per ton.

2798. Do you mean a net profit ?- Y es ; aJter p

135

156 1

William Wrig·ht iith J tlll e, liJU ;J.

. 2!99. is the life of a 1-?'hat depends upon t he management. If you use a charge

HL y_our furnace an quantity of lime it will fiu x the away; sb t hat the gt·eat

art p1 g .and. keepmg the works going for any lengthy pel'iod is to make t he slag so

that It IVI l.J .not al').y mclmatwn to attack lining. The analysis of t he slag which 1 used shows

t hat tho s1hca wa s Just about bala nced by the hrn e, so that the lime would be neutralized. 2800. Assuming good management, what would be t he life of a furmtee 1-I had furnaces goiJJ O' for over ten years, although 've stopped occasionally to effect repairs. 0

2801. What do you think would cover the interest on capital in addition to the sum of £2 7s. 7d, named by Mr. Jaquet as repre cnting the .cost of p1·oducing the iron 1-I think it would take ano ther 2s. here where mate1·ial is dear. 28 02. That would bring it up to .£2 9s. 7d., and you that a pl'ofit of 5s. per ton would be a

f

2805. Ry Sw Edwa1·d Bmddon.-Do yo u know what amount of capital it is pl'oposed to invest in t he industry here?- I understand it is £ 1,109,000. 2806. By Alb·. Watson. - I do not think the capibtl would be as much as that. Mr. Sandford ex pects to obtain about £250,000 on additional capital. H e has a lready certain '.vork s at Lithgow.

They would be at all events, at t heir value in the new company, and he said that he had

arranged to get new capital to the extent of £ 250,000 7-I do not kuow anytl:ing about that. 28 07 . By the Chainnan.-You were referring to t he Blyt he River Company. The amount would con sist pal'tly of valued stock. They wel'e tb get £500,000 for the £35,000tlwy had expended?­ ! was referring to the Blythe River :syndicate.

2808. By Si1· Edward Bmddon.- What i:s the weekly output s uggestecl 1- Mr. Sandford says 500 tons of pig iron a week. 28 09. That is 25,000 tons a yeal"'-Ye.· . 28 10. By M1·. Watson.-You think that a g ross profit of 7s. and a uet p:·ont of 5s . would be a fair Y es.

2 ' 11. You said that you thought t he country should assist this imlustry. In wh,Lt direction do yo u think t hat assistance should be given 7-I 'vould give it subject to conditiocts providiltg for its termi­ nation after a certain number of years had elapsed. 28 12. But would you give it by way of bonus 1-Yes.

28 13. By 1l!f1'. J oseph Cook.-'l'o t emiimi.te absolutely at t he end of a certain period 7-Yes, just as iu Canada. 2814. B ut is it ever going to terminate there 7-It is provided t hat the bonuses shall cease in 1907. 2815. By Mr. Watson.-For what period do you t hink these bonuses should be given 7-FOI' fiv e years from the date of starting wo uld be suffi cient. ·

28 16. A nd how much per ton 7-I have not really given that matter rt thought, bht I think a bonus of lOs. a ton ought to be ample. 28 17. By 1111·. Kinuan.- Do you think that all State assistance should cease at t he end of fi ve years 1- I think the bonuses should cease then.

28 18. R y Mr . Watson. - Do you think it would be necessat·y to continue the duty 7-I£ the iudu;; try grows as I expect it will, and competition is so keen that prices are reduced , it may be necessary to protect the local product against the lo\v-priced iron of othet· countries. 2819. If competition brought down the local prices thet e would not be much chance for the

imported article 7--Cariada can make its iron for £ 1 3s. per ton, and that fact must be temembered. 2820. By Jl!h. J oseph Ccok.-Do you think they can turn it out at that price 7-I have no proof excep t the statement contained in the Engineering Magazine, which is a highly reputable journal. 282 1. By M1·. Watson.-I£ Canada can produce it as cheaply as that a fairly heavy duty would

be necessary to enable our manufacturers to co mpete with the imported article 1-Yes. If Canada ca n bring dowu the price to the level I have named I do not think the Americans will allow themselves to be beaten by t hat country. . . . .

282 2. By llfr·. jJ!fcCay.-How is it that there is no 1ron sold the open markets at that

price 1-I do not know whether t hey a re in a position to ex port 1t Australia. .

2823. By M1·. Watson.-As to the probabilities of competttwh, huve you to

what would be the probable consumption in Australia. I do not refer to the of 1ron,

but to what is likely to be the general consumption for some years to come 7-l£ the priCe of was reduced to £3 per ton here much machinery now imported from England and the Umted St,ttes wohltl be made in Australia. 282 4. The evidence of the gentlemen most interested in the . two prop?sals. have. been before us is that they could not produce and sell it·on pn ce .at whiCh It Is. bm.ng sold­

that, whatever tliey might do eventually, they co uld not give any reductiO n m p1·tce to th o

co nsumer7-I do not suppose t hey would make any rcductwn If 1t were not co mpulso ry. Internal competition is the onl y thing to which you have to loo k.. . . . .

2825. Do you think there is any likelihood of Jn tern f1 1 m A ustralia unl ess we cah

manufacture for export purposes as well as for ou t· own reqmrements 7-l£ 1\fr. Sandford were to com mence operations, as well as the to which reference has bee n mad e, t he two wo rks would be able to t urn out sufficient to meet the reqmrements of all t he States. 2826. Jjy /IIr. Mauge1'.-Do you think there is room for t wo manufacturers here 7-Having

res there wou lrl no t he room for t wo. 282 7. By jlf1·. Watsou.--In ,·out· wrJI'k s in Englnnd you t ur11 ed out ij,OOO tnn s pr r ll" e!'k, 0 1'

260,000 tons a year7- Y es.

William Wright, 11th June, 1903. 136

. .

2828. A quantity in excess of wha.t Australia would consume for a considemble Yes. It is not proposed to make anything here but plates ; but very many things which are now imported would be made out here if the iron could be obtained at rates suffi ciently low to enable that to be done. 2829. I suppose that cheapness will depend upon the output ?-Of co urse. There are so many :fixed charges relating to iron works that if you divide the output by two you must necessarily double those charges. The larger the output, as a rule, the cheaper the manufacture.

By the Chairman.-You say that you used to produce 260,000 tons of pigiron a yea.r in

England. When was tha.t years have elapsed since I left that establishment.

2831. What was then the total British production cannot say. 2832. Does the cost of production in Canada, namely £1 3s. per ton in Canada, include interest on capital The sum represents the actual cost for. metal limestone and labour. I do not think

t he "incidentals " would include the cost of relining furnaces. 2833. Not repairs the ordinary repairs.

2834. Would you not consider relining as an ordinary repair It is a very extraordinary occurrence. 2835. But it has to be done sooner later 1-It has to be done in the course of time,· but it is a, very serious matter. ·

2836. By Mr Joseph Coolc.-Do you know that the Canadian estimates have been questioned by experts of very high authority ?- I do not. 2837. Do you know that these experts declare that they do not believe in them but there are matters relating to the industry in America, for example, which I cannot understand. There they make a ton of iron with 1, 600 lbs. of coal. In England with the latest appliances and the best coke

they cmmot do anything like that. Cochrane and Co., for example, who have some of the very best appliances, cannot produce such a result.

William Campbell, engineer, South Melbourne, sworn and examined. 2838. By · M1· . Jlfattg er.-Do you attend in your representative As the

representative of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers. 2839. You are familiar with the proposals of the Government as contained in the Bonus Bill '1--Y es. 2840. Do you know anything about the technicalities of iron manufacture '1-No. I ha.ve attended in order to point out the benefits which would accrue to the working men of the Commonwealth from the establishment of the industry here.

2841. You favom the proposals contained in the Bill 2842. You favour bon to the amount provided in that Bill 7-Yes, together with the duty of 10 per cent. 2843. What effect do you think a duty of 10 per cent. would have upon the cost of the raw material, so far as the manufactures in yom line are concerned little indeed. If we went on

with the manufacture of those things, I do not think the duty would increase the price one cent. It would rather tend to a reduction. From past experience we know that as the result of protection industries have been established, and that there has been a consequent reduction in the price of the imported article.

2844. By the Chairman.-The reduction \vas also caused by local Yes.

2845. By M1·. 1J1aug er.-The amount of iron required for local consumption leads you to the belief that there would be sufficient competition to bring about that result 7-Yes. I find that in 1901, 61,540 of iron-other than machinery-were imported into Victoria at an invoiced value of .£627,894. These figures do not cover the imports of wire. The value of the machinery imported during the same period was £630,853, making a. total of £1,258,7 4 7.

2846. By Mr. Watson.-Do you think that that £61,540 tons was exclusive of machinery ?-It consisted of raw material, s uch as bar irqn, &c. 2847. Then Coghlan must be wrong 7-I have taken these figures from the State interchange of imports and exports for 1901.

2848. And they relate solely to raw iron bar iron, plate ii'On, galvanized iron, and so forth. 2849. By M1., Winter Cooke.-You exclude fencing wire ?-Yes. I understand that from 40,000 to 50,000 tons of fencing wire were imported into the six States in the year named, but I have not gone into that matter. I have not the figures for the other States, but I assume that the total importation of iron and machinery into the Commonwealth in 1901 would be four times as great as the importation into · Victoria, or of a total value of £5,034,988. If we assume that one· third the invoice value of these

represents wages expenditure we must see that if these things had been manufactured here they would have caused the distribution of £1,674,962 in wages. 2850. By Mr. Mauger·- At what rate 7-If we allow that the men would have been employed for 50 weeks a year at an average rate of £2 lOs. per week, they would have earned £125 per annum each,

and by dividing £1.674,962 by 125 we see that 13,400 men could have been provided with em ployment if all these goods had been manufactured irr Australia. 2851. By Mr. J oseph Cook.-Instead of sending all the money out of the country 1-Yes. I have also found from experience that when a special class of iron has been required for repairs for ships it has

not been available, and that it has been necessary to cable home for a supply. If Great Britain were involved in war with any foreign power, what chance should we have of repairing vessels if we had to cable home for the iron instead of being able to produce it ourselves. 2852. By Jlfr. Mauger.-When did t he incident to which you refer take place 7-A few years ago.

2853. By Sir Edwa1·d Bmddon. -Are no stocks kept here 7-They do not keep any great variety. Any special class of iron has almost invariably to be ordered by cable in the case of an emergency. If bonuses were given to encourage the estab]ishment of the industry we should like to see a clause inserted in the Bill providing for the protection of workmen's wages and preserving the principle of eight hotu·s work per da.y. \Ve should [l.lso like to see a provision in se rted in the Bill to the effect that all the

137 William CampbeU, 11 t h June, 1003.

1563

machinery required in counexion with the rolling mill ;; to be established should be manufactured here so as to give employment to our adisans. The members of my society, as well as tho:se of other societies connected w1th t he iron trade, consider that if the Government enco urage the establishment of the industry in Australia by ofl ering bonuses and imposing a, duty they will then be ttble to con:sidm· the

desirableness of establishing dcdprds here so that the Commonwealth shall l:;e ab!c t o build its own warships. With the establishm ent of the iron industry they could 11.lso proceed to manufacture fmall arms for the military forces of the Commonwealth. These are branches of industry which should be created in Australia. The1·e is no doubt that with the creation of the iron industry here the Govern­

ment would be able to establish a rsenals and In t hat way empl oyment would be found not

only for the workmen at present in Australia, but for a g reatly increased population. 2854 . Uy ill?·. llfaugeT. - You know that a prop osal has hecn made that the States GoYet·nments should be asked to enter upon this industry ?-Yes. 285c!A. If the States Govcmments were unwilling to undertake it within a reaRo nable lime, would

you favou r the giving of bonu ses to the extent uf £250,COO to a private compa 11 y ?--Ce rtriinly. The sooner the industry is es tablished the better i t will be. \Ve favour its establishm ent by the Go 1·ernment of the Cornmonwen.lth, or· one of the States, but there is no immediate prospect of such an event. 2855. How long would you wait before giving the option to n. private company ?_I do not think

there is any immediate pros pect of the industry l: ein g take11 up by one of the States Governments, and therefo1·e we should not wait at alL The iron trade at present is in such a depressed condition that it requires som e enco uragement. Many men arc out of (' rnpl oyme nt., and eYc ry re:ts01mbl c strp ought to he ta.ken to provide them with work.

2i:l56 . As a, representati ve of your soci ety you thing that we should be ju;; tified in giving the bonuses to pri mte employers in the interest of employme nt, aml t hedevclopmentof t hcindustry?- Certainly. 2857. You do no t think t he proposal would interfe1·e with t he local manufacture of a rticles of which iron is the raw material ?- It would not. I see that reference ha ;; bee n made to the competition on the pa.rt of B elgium which we ha.ve to face, but, npo11 a peru& al of t.he t1tntc intercha.nge received, I find that there has been very little imported from Belgium. 1ost of our imports in this respect come from t he United States and Great Britain.

2858. By lY!t·. J oseph Cook.--W e have nothing to fear from Belgium you t hink ?- Accord in g to our experience we have not. Our imports have co me from other places. I find that the Victorian imports for 1901 were as follows :--11,007 tons of bar and ro d iron valued at .i%,624, 63 tons of bolts and nuts vn.lued at £1,243, a nd 160 ton s valued at £2,837, ] Gl tons of fire bars, &c., valued

a.t £1,784; 10,139 tons of gnlvanized sheet iron valued at £180,370, 2, 208 tons of galvanized co rrugated iron valued at £ 39,009, 328 ton s of galvanized plain iron valued at £6,190, 1,919 tons of girders (H. roll ed) valued at £15,900, and 300 tons valued at £ 1,724 ; 10,286 tous of pig iron valued at £ 43,007, 224 tons of pipes (cast) valued at .f2,tl98, 4,239 ton s of pipes (wrough t) val ued at £82,580, 4,470 tons of pla te iron and steel valued at £41, 128, 11 ,2 26 tons of rails (iron and steel) valued at £ 5,166, and 389 tons valued at £3,198; 3,224 tons of scrap iron and steel valued at £10,476, and

1,197 tons of sheet iron valued at £30,760, or a grand total of 61,540 tons valued at £627,894. · 2859. By the Chainnan.-You have been appointed to give e vidence on behalf of the

Amalgamated Society of Engineers 1- Yes. 2860. By .Jb·. )r,seph Cook.-That is to say on behalf of your branch of your society 7-For the whole of the Melbourne district. 2861. By .Jb· . .McmgeT.- How mn.ny member s do you number in Victoria 7-About 700 or 800.

2862. By Mr. Joseph Cook.- You are not representing the country branches ?- There are on ly the Ballarat and Bendigo branches outsid e, and I think they hold t he same. opinion, pmctically, we do. 2863. By the Chainnan.- Has your society considered this the was

considered by the branches long ago. Committees were appointed _to deal w1th 1t, they mstructed me to give the evidence which I have put before the conumttee. They are 111 favour of the

Commonwealth or one of the States takin "' up the establishment of the industry at once, but they see no immediate prospect of that being done, therefore, they favour the giving of the bonus to private companies, so that there may be no delay.

vVilliam A. Robertson, consulting engineer, :Melbourne, sworn and examined. 2864. By the Chai1·:man.-Have you had any experience in co nnexio?' with th.e industry.?­ Yes ; I have had a. great deal of experience in regm·d to iron ores and ores m V1etorm smtable for Iron smelting. . . . . .

1 2865. Have you had any practical experience of smeltmg and .-I had . s.ome

experience in the old country many years ago. I was an engmeer, and my trmmng was partly obtamed in t he rolling mills and smelting works. . .

2866. Can you give any information which would be usefu l to co mmitt.ee as the Iron

resources of Australia 1- I came more particularly to bring before CommiSSJOn the wh1c l: we have in Victoria. I represent the Victorian Iron Mines Syndicate, was formed so me li ttle tune ago. I took an active part in its formation, and opened up iron deposits at Nowa Nowa, East Gippsland. There is a ferruginous belt running along t h ere for about l ij miles, and extending from about 1} miles

north of Lake Tyers. . . .

2867. What is the extent of the deposit ?- It I S not co mputable. There are very lai·gc outcrops there; in fact, one might say there are mountnins of it in certain parts. 2868. H ave you tested it h_ave put dow.n shafts, and had hundreds of analyses made. I can safely say that t here are over nnlhon ton,. Ill sight. .

2868A. And you have had assays made?- Y C's.. I ha1'e not t.he. analy s<·-> w1L h me, ?ut Mr. J enkins who was the Victori an Governmen t l\ febllur,!:pst, madt- a ca rrful lll SpeetiOL1 , nncl went Into the matter fully. His report is aYni labiC'. J came merely to gi,·e e1·id en_ce !n regard to the question of capital required. I saw you so me ti111c ago about the matter. \\o e chd not ask for a bonu s. As a

Willic;m A. Robertson, nth .J une,

umtter of fact, the proposal for a bonus led to complications m our ca>;e. vVe wet:e negotiating fur capital to commence the industry when the Bonus Bill was with the result that neg-otiations wer e at once suspended. A duty is we desire.

28 69. Are you of opinion that ironworks can be established here 7-Y es, for the reason that the ores a rc ?f a Yery hi gh grade. They are within easy reach of se:t carriage, while in r egard to quantity aud q ualtty they a re everything that could be desired. W e have altio manganese ore in the irnmediate vicinity of the hem> ttite ores, which, as you know, are rno ;t valuable for the higher quality o£ steel­

making, while limes tone is in close proximity to om· deposit. The only drawback is tha t we have uo cu

28 tl. H ave you any avatlable capttal ?-No. W e have spent about £4,0JO tn developmg the property and in making railway surveys. vVe completed the surveys so as to be able to put the whole matter before capitalist s in a way.

28 72. Prior to this where did you obtain experience in regard to ironworks ?-.Near Glasgow ; but t hat was abou t 30 years ago. 287 3. In oonne.xion with ironworks ?-Y es, I was employed, but only a3 an apprentice at iron­ works iu Ayrshire. I was there on and o.ff for seven years.

:38 7 '!. Have you had any other experience?-Yes, with the Steel Company of Scotland and the rolling mill s at Glasgo w. I was engaged there as an expert for prob< Lbly a year. 2o 75. In what capacity ?-A s an expert iu regard to steam boilers, but! was in t he mid:; t of roll ing mills all tho time.

28 7G. Have you had any other expe!'ience?-No. 28 77. N ow, as to the resources of Australia. Are you as to the quality a nd quantity of

the iron oro at Nowa Nowa ?-Y e:; . Not only from what I h

2878. Did you experience any particular difficulty in connexion with the work. Are you hold­ i11g your hand pending the passing of the Bonus Bill1-I saw that there was no possibility of raising capi tal locally for putting up smelters, because we should require over .£1,000,(;00. 2o79. vVhat do you es timate as 11ecessary for the establi:;hment of the works ?--One would nut do; the industq would have to be divided into sections just as are the rolling mills in England. One miJl tums out a certain class of work, and another a totally differe11t class . 'l'o put up rolling miils to do every class of work would cost anything between £15,000,000 and .£20,000,000, because an enormom; number of different rolls would be required. You might have them all, and yet obtain only a week's work a year for some of them as an order from a particular mill. But anything from £800;000 to £1,2 00,000 would be wanted for smelting furnaces and rolling mill s.

2880. By Jl£1·. Joseph Coole.-You say that the quantity of ore in sight at Nowa Nowa is about 2,500,000 tons ?- Yes, there is a lod e formation. :388 1. vVh at quantity of iron do you contemplate turning out per annum 1-I have not gone into

t hat matter, but I know that the amount spent upon imported material is close upon £ 5,000,000. 2882 Do you favour the granting of a bonus ?-Now that it has b'3el1 offered, I certainlJ7 do. At I preferred only a duty. .

288 3. You recognise that, until there is a local output, the imposition of a duty would possibly raise the pt·ices of the material here?-With the duty and with oversea charges, we should be able to compete against < tnything. · 288 4. But, until there W

2885. By .il£1·. WintM' Cooke.- Have you calculated what would be the cost per toil of making iron at Nowa Nowa ?-Yes, 2886. Are you at liber ty to sta te what that e:;timate is 1-It is a varying one. .i cannot .state clearly what the es timate is, but I rec kon that the cost would be from £2 lOs. to £3 1 Os. per ton. There are various grades of pig iron that co uld be made from the material we have.

288 7. \.Vhat would be your port of shipment ?-Cunninghame, which is about 25 miles distant from the mines. 2888. H ave you heard anything of t he deposits in t he Otway Ranges ?-I ha ve hea1·d about it, but have no t seen them. I sent men to examine the depos its at Dookie.

2889. How do the Dookie deposits compare with those at N owa Nowa?- 'l'here is too much &ilica in the ores t.here. They

289 1. By j)[?· . .Joseph Coo k. - 'l'h ey do not wa nt a change, even in the direction of a reduction ?­ They would like tho standa rd to be fi xed for ten years, then we should know wh a t we were doing. 28 92. By Jlb·. Winte1' Cooke.- A t the present rate of m1ges, what duty would you require?-Not less tban ] 5 per cent., in ord er to obtain some return for the capital inves ted.

2893. ·w ould yo u ex pect that du ty to be co ntinuous?---No. The differeuce in tbe rate of wages prevailing l1 ere a,nd t he hours worked, as co mpa red wi t h those which prevail elsewh ere, together wi th the facilities which they have in Great Britain and the United Sta tes for turning out iron, are the chief matte1·s that we h 1L1·e to

289,L If yo u had a du ty of[ !) per cen t., yo u could do withou t a bonus 28 !) 5. If you got a bo nu s, you wo uld still want a duty ?-N ow t hat the bonus has been offered, we should certainly desire it. 'l'u ask us now to do wi thout a bonu s would be like offering a man a present > L ncl then b king it a wa,y .

139 William A. Robertson , lUh J uu e, l!JU3.

1565

. 2t:9G . I understoou you to sa1 t hat t h? vf ad uty vf l [j per cont. would nut raise th e preseut

pnce Lo t!1e commmer ot shght.ost It wou!J leave au oven:>e

2897 . But block 11'011 from co nnn g m i--l :say not. But J must exphtiu t hat I misunder:stoou just 11?w. The imposition of a duty of ] 5 per ce nt. would ce rtainly make

cltflcronce m t he p n ces.

2ti98. Uy JJ'b·. Manyer. - -But how would i t affod t ho ironworkers here ?-I do n ot think it would afl'ect t hem at all. 2899. lly llfr. lVintc1· Cookc.- Until competition set iu between t he Jmtnu beturers of different counh•ies the eo nsum er would pay t he iucreaseu price t'l'!" ·oscnted by th e duLy ?-U mloubLcdly. But the duty shou ld not be imposed until we arc actually producing iron h e re.

2800. lly Si1· E dwarcl wo uhl HOt be two scpa rnte prices- one for Llte itnportcu

[Lrt iele a nd one for t ho local output 7-There a ru various prices, according to

2901. By ilh·. Wintm· Coo ltc.--Do you say that a duty of 15 pot· cent. " ·o tdd shu t out all

intportations of iron 7- No; bec

t ic; d kn ow ledge, but 1 know t hat the iron prodnctio 11 in t he Nliddle:s brough district run fru tn about £2 5s. to i 2 l 0;; . pet· ton, wh il e t hat protlucecl nt Pitt:; burg, in America, nwgo;; from t: l 12;;. to £1 15s. per ton. 2!}02A. R y Si1· Ed1vm·d ll1·addv'n. -- You ad11 tit t hat itnportecl iwn ;,; uhjeet to a duty of l G per ce nt ., would b • dea rer by sv much to the consumer fi r:st; bu tT rea ll y c;Lm lOt a nswer Um t question. It would depend upon t he merchant- upon what he would sell t he iron for.

3903. Have yo u

2904. B y the Chainncm.-How do you a rrive at the con cl usion t httt we are w much neat er Ut e west coast of Ameri ca t han arc t he Pittsbu rg maiitlf

2905. Ry 1111·. McCay.- But as a matter of fact t hey do se ncl machinery by rail to l he coast ?-They cannot help t hemsel ves . But what would be done in t lt e r:asc of mil s required on t he west coast. I know a gentlema n who reqllired 100,000 tons of rails for Ecuador, a ud he t hough t he woulcl co me ove r h ere and place the order, because t he water carriage would be ch eaper. He was not a ware Umt t he industry was not hed here.

2906. Hy Si1 · Edward· Emddon.-Do you !mow how fat' Japan could compete in tl tc Ea,;tem market ?-No ; but I know they a re producing iron there. 2907. By M 1·. J{irwan.-Ytiu say that you co ul d produce pig it·on at from £2 lOs. to £3 lOs. per tou 7-That is onl y an estimate. I believe that would be t.he cost, but I h

2907A. That applies to t he Nowa Nowa deposits ?- Y es. 2908. Where would you obtain your coal 1-F rom N ewcastle. 2909. Are you awat·e that Mr. Sandford says h e can produce pig iron at 35:;. per ton ?-I haYc seen the statement publish ed, but he has coal at hand. I think my estimate is an outside one.

29 10. H e h

:2912. By ilh. J'Vlaug e1·.-Is not t h e Gippsland coal su itable?-Yes, but we lmv e no rail communication . By and by it may be availaule to us. 1t makes vpry p;oocl coke when mixed 'rith Newcastle coal. . 29 13. The difficulty is the want of a seaport?- Y es.

2914. By Air. "What is t he present price of pig iron iu Austral ia 1- It Yari es, according

to quality, from 80s. to 1 05s. . . .

2915. If pig it'on co uld be produced in Australia even at yo ur own of cost, wlncll JS

co nsiderably above t hat made by Mr. Sa ndford and .Mr. J"aquet, co uld be t he Co.mmonwealt h for £4 per ton, it seems to me that you would make a Yery good t!111l!!; out of Jt ?- I he y1 g ll'OI ;, I wou hl prod uce would not. be sold in the market tLS pig iron, but roll ed 111to plates, a nd, .so fot: t h. lhe total quantity of pig iron consumed in Australin. waul? not a smelter .gomg. I here 1s a Ye ry

consumpt ion for foundry purposes. ] tis for the fim shed artwl.e t.hat thet·e 1s a demand. On e nc,·er dream of putting up a smelter only for t he nmnufacture of JW·· 1.ron. \\' Ould. be a mcre.std c 1ss ue .. 2916. JJy Jlh. Joseph Coo/,;.--Are you aware t hat there IS as mu ch Iron belll g 111 Aust raha at t he present time as wo uld consume t hP product of a furtmt:r ?- Yrs ; more t it an suflt c1ent to cons um e

t he product of three fumaces. _ . . . . .

2917. JJy th e Clw.i1·man.- you arC' dtshnglllslnng ll<' b ,·cen pt g tron, :tllrl bar, and slt c•et, and rod iron ?-Yes. . .

29 l ti. By 1111'. J{irwan.- 1£ t be Bonus Bill we re \\' Ould 1t greatly the mluo uf

t he propel' ty which is h eld by your sy ndicate ?- I du l!Ot tlnnk tt "·o u.ld. It ts matter of ?o many

pounds heing given by way of honu sf'R fot· n )'Par o t· two. Of cou rse' tt "·ould n.ss1st 111 tltr fir st 1n stance in getting

29 19. Y ou say thnt 1tn a.rmngP tn cnt had pmcl tw ll y hec•n fnr L il <' tnlrurlu d t\111 of c; qJJtn ! befol'e t he Bill wa:; in troduced 7- - Y es; but as soo11 as the Btl! " ·as tnl t·udu ted, Uw p:lrtirs stayed t hrir ha nds, pending t he rPsul t. The res ul t is tha t t he nc·gotiations !tan• , !)'

'Vi11i am A. Robertson, l!Lh June, 1003. 140

2920. But without any of a you were a rranging for the introduction of capita.!?­

Y es, with a 15 per cent. duty. I had consulted members of the CtLbinet before that, and I was

promised that they would bring the matter along. ·

2921. By the Chairman. - Bring it before the H un ·e ?-Yes. 2922. By McCay. - A proposal fora duty of 15 per cent. 1-Y es. · 292 3. By Jlfr. J oseph Coo/c.--Our experience of .l\1r. Kingston was that he would not let us near him. • How did you manage it 1- 0h, we have t ravelled together before now.

29 24. By th e Cltainnan.- H a,·e I met you before. Have we travelled in the same train ?-Yes, sevEml times. The last t ime t h,Lt we met was in Brisb:we. I never spoke to you about the Bonus Bill. I wanted a du tv on iron. 2925. ' Ve did not propose a duty of 15 per cent. ?-No.

2926. 'l'hat is what you would like?- Yes. 2927. ·would a bonus in tLdcl ition be of assi&tancc to tho industry ?- U ucloubtecl ly. 2928. t lmt you could not got the du ty immediately, would a bonus be of assistance?­ No, uot without the impositiou of a duty as soon as the iron was being produced.

2929. Your idetL that as soon as the has been yo u should have a duty ?--

y cs, nnd not till then . -

2D30. JJ y ilh-. J oseph Cook. - With t he promise of oJJl y a bonus you could not obtain the capital ?- No; u nless we had tL ltL W to regulate wages. 2931. By Jlf1·. J!IcCay. - I do not t hink you would get of the Govemment to promise

anything in that direction ?---I t ried t ho member:; of tho , t

establishment of Lhc industry, you cou ld obtain Lhe necess:u·y capital ?- I thiuk so. . 2933. Co uld yon do so with 11 duty of 10 per ce nt. ?- I :;lwulcl have to open up negotiations again. 2934. You have no C

( T ctken at S,ijdney.) l\WNDAY, 15TH JUNE, 1903.

Gommissione1·s p1·esent :

Mr. FuHer, I Mr. Watson.

Mr.

Mr. Watson called to the chair JYI'O tem.

James Taylor, B. Sc., vVh. S., A. R.S.M., Consulting Engineer, Chemist, and Metallurgist, Sydney, sworn and examinea. 2936. By Jlfr. You were formerly in the State service as Government Metallurgist 1-Y es, for six and a half years. I resigned to go into private practice.

2937. Can you give us an idea of your experience prior to co ming to th <;J State was assistant to ML Edward Riley, a well-k now n iron chemist in England, a nd one of the founders of the patent Basic process. I was also assistant to Dr. P ercy, a leading English metallurgist in the School of Mines, London. I was also assistant for four years to Sir H enry Roscoe. For three years 1 was chief chemist to Messrs. Hollway Bros., large importers of Spanish, Elba, and Algerian iron ores. Their im ports were something like 1,000, 000 tons of ore from ElbR alone. This was in the early eighties.

Since t hen the ironmasters have begun to go direct for t heir irnpo.rted ores, and Hollway Bros.' tr'ade fell off'. I was nine vears chief chemist to Messrs. Thomas Firth and Sons, steel m

them for a month, and was complimented by the gem>ral manager. Previous to this, I had served an apprenticeship of seven years in t he engineering works of 1\fess rs. Platt Bros. and Co., Oldham, a finn employing up to 10,000 or 12,000 hands; and three years at Owen's College, Manchester; three years at the Royal School of lVIin es, London . I am senior member of the English Iron and Steel Institute in the Common wealth.

293 8. You have had a life-long acq uaintance with iron production in one form and another 1-Yes, and its use. Dt·. P ercv once S

2939. W'hil c in t he emp loy of t he New South vVales Government you had a good deal of oppor­ t unity of becoming acquain ted with iron production and its possibilities 7- Scarcely, because the quest ion did not come up so far as tho .i\'[etallurgical department was concerned . Since then I have had ex­ perience of one or two of t hese depositK, and know KO rn ethin g about t he subject generall y.

294.0 . H ave _you m

wo r ked . No on e of those depos its is enough to warmnt the establi:;hm en t of ironworks. If t he wod;:s wore estahl ished, the ore, no doubt, would comP along. Somr of it is good qua.litj, and some not so good. T am for st<•r l nmking. no doubt, kn ow something about .· tee] by

t his time. There is one uf . <; tr•p] nt; Lk in g t hat". cou ld not hr touchecl herf'. That is cru cible stf' r l

of t he highest ·

29± l. You mean t here is no ore here applicable for t hat 7-Y es .

141

1567

Jmues Taylot· , l bt]' .Tun e, 1903.

, . 2942. _By .fl£:1'. lV atlcins.--Does that _apply to all the States?-'Well, you can take the analyse::; 'I here IS qmte equal to the best ore for st eel purposes. It goes through a process different

from_ the Bas1c the Siemens, or the Bessemer proc3sses. 'i'hey smelt it with ch:trcoal. The fact of the htt le phosphorus m charcoal means tha t you can n ever get iron entirely free from phosphorus. That is the best process you can take. There is less in charcoal than in any other solid fuel. But with

the ores some of t_h em are fr:ee from phosphorus. In it 0 ·0 l per cent of phos­

I S and that I S a bout the m1mmum lumt. Charcoal iron is worked up and converted into

bar 1ron, whiCh I S exported as la.rgely as poss1ble, for the whole output is taken by some Sheffield steel makers. Out of t!1i s bar-iron, crucible steel is ma?e. A fter cementation the bars are broken up into lengths, and examm ed a nd classed as to the quant1ty of carbon they contain. The different classes as to co ntents of carbon a re placed into sepamte heaps, and these a r e melted in crucibles to produce the

highest class steel. 2943. By Jf1·. Watson.- Outside of that there is an idea of the possihility of useful production 7 -All other dasses but that can be produced here. . So tha t all requirements in the way of machinery and mils, aitd everything of that

descnptwn l - Ail structural steel, a nd steel for machinery can be ma de with the material that is here. 2945. And you think of satisfactory quality 7- 0f excell ent quality. 294G. Which do you regard as the most promising fi eld ;:; from the point of view of steel produc­ tion, t hose of New South "\Vales, Tasmania, or n,n y other States ?- I have not seen any others except one in Queensland, at Ipswich, 6 miles from there. So far as I know there are no iron deposits at Ipswich.

2947. You h ave seen t he analysis of the Blythe River depos its in Tasmania. Do you care to express an opinion about it ?- The evidence on t he qu e,.;tion refers first, to quantity of the ore, and second, to the qu ality. 34 per cent. of silica is practically out ·of it. It is a fern1ginous btone. 2948. Mr. Twelvetrees said that was not typical ?-Nobody handling ore would e\'er dream of

ha ndling that . From 3 per cent. to 15 per cent. of silicrt co mes within range. 2949. H e says t l1 e Blyt.hc Rive r ore is suitable for the aeid precess, l1ccam;e it has only 0·04 phosphot·ic co ntents ?- Yes, that is perfect] y satisfactory. 2950. Taking the phosphoric contents as not exceedi ng 0·0·1, a nd the iron co nten ts from GO per cent. to G4 per cent., and silica no t above 15 per cent., would you ,;ay that was a suitable ore ?-Yes, but you would like it better with less But you must have som e silica for the Bessemer process, though it is quite likely t ha,t that process would not be introduced. It has actually seen its bc,.;t clays. The open-hearth process is coming to the fore more. Both make good material with good raw material.

For a time the Bessemer was better for a large output, fot· rails, for example, hut recent improve­ m ents in the open -hearth process have diminished the margin of cost of working between the two, and, besides, for this part of the world, the open-hearth would be better, being much more amenable to manipulation, i t yields pwducts more varied in clmmcter, a nd suits a small er market. If you are making rails all day and ever-y day, B essemer does very well, but you need an enormous output. Under t he Siemens process you can vary your material.

29 51. You think it would be more probr.ble they would go in for the open-hearth system here?-Yes. 2952. Would you say on what you have read of t he Blythe River deposits t hat they are geed deposits to work upon ?-Stuff like that from anywhere is good. 2953. Have you had any opportunity of forming rm opiLion cf the deposits at Carcoar or Caclia 7 -Corcoar I have not seen. Cadia I have Reen. One deposit there J particularly noted. The main

ironstone deposit occurs on a hill known as the Iron Duke, which rises on the western bank of the Cacliangullong Creek to a height of 550 feet above that creek in the parish of Clarendon, . county of Bathurst. The summit and upper part of the nort h-western slope of the hill are covered w1th an out­ crop of enormous blocks of ironstone. This outcrop is continuous from beyond tbe summit clown the eastern and north-eastern slopes for about 25 chains, with an average width of about 5 chains. The

lower portion of the hill has enormous boulders of ironstone, hut there is no present means of deter­ mining the extent of the deposit or its probable depth. The lower rn arf\in of the outcrop 1

is about 11

chains above the cr·eek. A tunnel has been driven towards the summ1 t of t he hill a llc. beneath t he outcrop. For some distance the walls and roof of the a r e timber ed,. so that their. natu:e could

not be seen. Further in the walls are an igneous rock, probably ancles1te. About S chams from the entrance is an air shaft, which rises to the surface a bout 120 feet above. From near the bottom of the air shaft a drive to the south has been put in for about l & chains. This cr?ss-cut is in

ferruo-inous material then for about 2 chains in iron ore, largely composed of soft black magnetite carrying a little py;·ites. In the last chain of. the cross-cut t he clri ,-e was sp_lit. The two branches divero-ed slio-htly but both were in black rmt,o-netite, which on the western stel e of t.!t e west branch ;tnd more siliceous. This cro:s-cut discloses a large body of ironstone of which the

dimensions cannot be determined at present. ore body is beneath the surface below _the

margin of the outcrop, and within the 11 chains mentioned, s? absence of_ outcrop 11_1 th1s portwn of the hill does not mean absence of iron ore. On the cast s1de of t he creek m the pa n sh of \Valde­ grave a shaft has been sunk in what is known as the_ copper st opcs or quarry, and a drive going east was put in 30 feet below the quarry bottom. The clrwe keeps . to what 1s supposed to_ be the general course of the ironstone. Some little distance in a cross-cut gomg north was clrn-e n 4o fee t m black

mao-netite iron ore carryin()' enorm.ous spots of pyrites, a sampl e of which was taken from t he clump. '=' ' '=' • l I tl 'd "'! . . ft

About 1 chain further another cross-cut was put m, a so on t 1e nor 1 SJ e. .c n s was 111 very so

mao-netite, which shows very distinctly in the clump at mouth of the shaft. A sample of this was anQ. wa.s found to contain a very apprecia?lc copper. ?f t hese two I could

lea ·n nothino· more than that the first was cln,·c n 4-u feet wit hout co mmg to any wal l. Iwo or three sm:ll outcro;g west of the summit are to exist, whi ch , I did no t succeed in

A similar ironstone outcrop about GO chams west of the old coppe r smcltw g wo rh I dtd see, and t h1s out­ crop is of importance as beino- in a toler ably direct line between t he Iron Duke and the l a rge iron ore d eposits in the Ca noblas mine."' Quantity _of ore. - 'l'aking the area _of t he outcrop as approximately_ 25 chains by 5 chains, and assuming l 0 cu blC _feet to _ the ton, 1 foot m depth over above area g1ves

54,440 tons of ore. There is not. sufficien t eVIdence to show, even approxnnately, the depth

Jan)es Taylor, 15th .June, 1903. 142

of the ore. A depth of 20 fe et would giYe over 1,000,000 tons. This can probably be

multiplied ;;e veral times, and still be well within the nmrk. Further, it is evident that there are l1trge bodies of ore not included in the above aren, ns Loth the large masses met with in the tunneb are outside of the area included in the calculation. '_f_'he bulk of the ore in the outcrop appe:1rs to be so mewhnt siliceo us. According to three or four nnaJyses m:1d e of these ores by the Government Mines Dep:u-tment, tl1ere is co nsiderable variation in the amounts of silic11, sulphur, phosphorus. The silic11 varies from 4·52 to 12·20 per cent.; sulphur varies from 0·013 to 0·32 per cent. 'l'he lnrge quantity of s ulphur is from magnetic oxide conULining very perceptible spots of pyrites. As the phosphorus is low in this pnrticular sample, a product of very superior quality could be obtained by the process of magnetic sepamtion by which the sulphur present in the pyrites would be removed.

Probably with careful selection ore eminently suitable for steel making of a high class can be obtained in quantity, and the less select ores are still of excellent quality, suitable for the manufacture of a high quality of iron. 2954. From what you have seen of the Cadia deposit, nne! your knowledge of ]ocal conditions would you say that it would he a fair con1mercial proposition to start the manufacture of iron

at Lithgow ?-In what dir·ec tion ? 2955. Do you regard the Lithgow coal as s uita bl e for making the class of coke required for iron smelting ?-- l have seen very little of the Lithgow coal. I should not like to say, but I do not see why i t should not. There is this about it, in a small way possibly splint coal could be used as in Scotch furnaces, hut I am afraid under labour conditions here, the output being small, the proportionate cost due to higher wages would rather prevent that. You must, I think, with higher wages, work mo re on the American conditions, meaning a large output, and for tha t you cannot use a raw coal. It is not used on a large scale anywhere. The Anierican fumaces make up to 700 tons a day.

29i'i6. 'l'hey do that with coke?-Yes. 2957. I would like you if you could to express an opinion as to the commercial possibilities. 'l'ake Lithgow as a centre in conjunction with the area to the westward ?-You would have to bring the iron down to the seaboard. TLe vVestern district could not take the whole of the iron.

2958. Taking Sydney as the computing point-the distributing point-a11d taking into account the rail carriage, do you care to express an opinion as to the W estern possibilities generally?- Iron could probnbly be made there. I have seen various estimates. l<'rom £2 to .£2 lOs. per ton iron could be made up there. I do not think estimates could come much nearer than that going very fully into the

thing, but I think pig can be made from that price-in fact it is quite possible for less, but I should not · like to say how much less. 2959. I suppose you noticed Mr. Snndford's evidence contains an estimate of 35s. at I mean Lithgow. I know of estimates lower than that, 27s. Gel., but I doubt it, and that with raw coal. I should not like to say anything lower than £2 ; it would be quite satisfactory at that; £2 a.t the works would pay well.

2960. And then there would be freight to Sydney for distributing 7-Yes. It is 96 miles to Lithgow. Roughly the charge is lOs. per ton. If you buy pig in England to bring here it costs by the time it is in the works at Clyde, near Sydney, about 50 per cent. over the quoted prices. They have paid 50s. or 60s. for hematite. That would be 7 5s. here in Sydney. If you can make anything like hematite for £2.

2961. Your estimate would be the production cost, not including profit1-Yes, the cost at which it could be produced. .£2 would produce the material there. 2962. £2 lOs. would be the cost of landing in Sydney 1-Yes. That would be the English price, hut then you have the cost of bringing it here, all the charges which come to somewhere near this 50 per cent additional.

2963. Even at a production cost of 40s. you think there would he a fair chance of competing in the Australian market ?-I think there would. 2964. vVould you care to express an opinion about the possibilities for producing iron at, say Sydney, or on the coast of New South Wales, from Blythe River ores, supposing them brought over from the Blythe, either to Newcastle, Illawarra, or Sydney 7-'l'hose ores could not go to Lithgow. Lithgow would have to make from the local ores, there is no doubt about that. It has been found convenient in England to move the ironworks to the seaboard on acco unt of the railway rates. History will repeat itself, no doubt, so that the proper thing would be to put the works on the coast.

2965. E ven if you had to bring som e of the W estern ore down to mix with the Tasmanian?-You can find out the cost of freight tmin miles. Not what ic; charged, but the cost pet freight train mile. If you had a regular mineral traffic, which is a big traffic in England, you see what you can possibly work at. You could not get below the cost, but you could hnve full freight trains, and the cost of freight in that way could be reduced to less than anything we have noted.

2966. By ill?·. think you can disabuse yom mind on that point. They are getting gceat

co ncessions on the lOs. per ton at Lithgow, and Mr. Harper said he did not see where there would be any reduction on that ?·-But how many tons are they sending away 1 2967. That is not the question. They are getting great concessions ?-Yes; hut not for large qurtntities. ·

2968. By Jlh. Watson.-You think possibly the Commissioners would find they could bring the ore to the seaboard cheaper than they a re now doing ?-Ten shillings is a little over ld. per mile. They are carrying ores at per mile for 250 miles, and at i d. per mile beyond that. 2969. Cadia is over 25 0 miles, and it would cost per mile to bring it to Sydney.-·Yes; but they have no traffic like that would be, and it is possible the Commissioners could do something.

2970. A ss uming you were controlling sufficient capital to start ironworks, do you think the prospec t s in Australia would be suffici ently encouraging t0 justify you doing so at any point, and if so, at which point ?-I think it would, ana as f0r the point, it is a matter between N ewcastle or down so uth. On the coast anyhow.

2971. Do you think any form encouragement from the State is necessary ?-'l'he only form which appears to me necessary and sufficient is this. I should not to put up wol'ks

143

•

1569

.Jam es Taylor, 15th Jun e, 1903 .

under those co nditions, and I think it would he fait· to t he capitali st q a nd t he rest of the country too. It is t hat t he various Go vernmen ts should ta.ke so much iron every ea.r in form s

as require_d. If they wo ul_d be. prepareu to take t hei r supplies from t hos [works at the price

the maten al would be obtatned from else wh ere landed, no more, no take t hem on the market

:ralu e, and to take them a lengt.hened _:!I y_ea r·fl or so, equal in quality to t he

Imported a rt 1 ·lc, a guamntee of t hat ktnd would be qmtc s uftH.: LC nt muucement to to produce t he iron. 297 2. By M1·. Wath:ins.-That is a good gmLrantee. But it does not oblige you to spcnu a farthing. There is no bonus. You do nothing but buy from them at t he ma r·k et rate and unuertake to take it from

them so long as it is of the sa me qu ali ty. The works would not be limi ted to the capacity of the Govern­ ment dema.nds. - 2973. By llf?· . Ji'ullm·.-I£ there was n. guarantee with the Government 'Yith one, how could t hey brea k that if somebody else comes wou ld not break it, they would distribut e t he denw.nd between

those making t he iron. Suppose the Government is taking 100,000 tons every year, and you arc going start works to turn out 200,000 ton s. The Government undertake to take a ll their material from you. 297 4-. F or 21 years 7- Yes; so long as you are t he onl y manufact urer in t he Commonwealth _-297 5. 1'h

100,000 tons, you wo uld take two-t hirds nn d t hey 0110-thi rd. Ts it lil;<•ly a nybody else wi ll com e here if your works are not a success 7 297G. By lJh. Watson.- Do you think there is likely to be room fo r more than on e set of works 7 - -Not at pre en t .

2977 . For some li ttle tim e to come one Ret of works could denJ wit h t he demand ?- Yes. Besid es t hat, the Government guarantee would insure a co nstant custome r, and you would have local for the rest of the people. 'l'hat would ben great co n venience. You cttn get loc.al materinl now, hut you would ha ve a loca l supply of such materials as are in use, which would be an advantage bo t h t o the

works and the co mmunity, and the cost to t he res t of the community would be not hing. 297 8. Assuming your lower estimate of 40s. per ton as t he production cost, would we have any chance of corppeting for export trade ?-It is easy to figure t hat out. vVe can purchase at a certain price here. There is a market a bout us where somebody wants rails, or bars; what is to

p revent them fro111 us 1

2979 . I thought you might have con sidered wh ether t here is a likelihood of getting any export trade for some time 7-lt depends on the cost-. In England, the consum ption per head is 239 tons, after deducting the amount for export. In the U nited States it is 107 tons. Our conditions approximate more nearly to that of t)le States. The consumption of iron must increase with civilization, so that eve ntually there is qo doubt t here will be a n export trade, but too much cannot be expected at present. In the mef!.11tit11e we can only look for t he local demand.

29 80. By 11fT. When you say the present ores would be only for local consumption, on what estirpate do you base the total co nsumption of the Commonwealth- at how much 7-I got some figures from Mr. Coghlan a year or two ago. I co uld simply take his figures. 29 I. Take 150,000 t ons; wo uld you con sider t hat sufficien t guarantee to put up local works 7- ­ I sho4ld not like to say off-hand. Suppose you have a furnace producing 250 tons a day, pig iron, that gives 75 ,000 tons a year. Double that for two fumaces, and t ha t capal:ity gives 150,_000 tons. .

2982. In t he present developll!ent of t he iron industry, are furnaces of that _capacity competition 1--There are some in England not produl:ing that, but under A_mencan cond1twns 1t IS different. Of course, a 500-tons furnace wou ld do t he work more econonu cally. But you cannot make all classes of iron at the one time in one fLU·n ace, so that it would hardly be wise to go in fo r a

single furnace. 2()83 . Suppose three or four furnaces of that kind established , would not be at a

disadvantagE\ from an economical poiQt of view in competing w1th 700-tons fumaces ?- I he larger ones have only recently come into use. .

2984. Yes, but we must do the t hing properly if at all 7-Some furnaces bemg only produce 75 tons a day. A 250-tons fu rnace requires a lot of handling and a lot of ore. It IS not one of the

biggest nor the smallest. _ _

2985. I s it not a fact that in the larger furmtees the u·on IS produced more economicall y t han in t he smaller ones 7-You must talk to the iron masters about tha t. .

2986 . What is your opinion 7-It is not so much the large fumace as fot·cmg the forced clr&opo-ht and such like .' A 700-tons furnace would fl ood the market, howeve r cheaply you make It. lf we put an up-to-date establish ment in New ·wales, _say, we would,_ ve ry soon Hood

the of the Commonwealth ?- If you are going to stick exclusively to the 100 tons a day

apd only one--- _

2988. I do not want to put you at tlutt 7- I would 2v 0 tons a day as t h_e most reason abl e to go on with here. Many furnaces in America are paying th c1r way, and not producmg mu ch more than t hat. I should certainly not be disposed to go in for a htrge furna ce. _ .

2989. You think it is very doubtful whether a 700 tons up-to-date furnace IS best ?- For our conditi!)ns, l do not think it is best. 2990. But I mean for compet it ion with the world ?-For that, of course, t here wo ulu be some little aqvantage ip it. _ _ . . . , _ .

299 1. I s it your idea t hat we should only establish Ironwo:ks to manufactlll e sufhcient fot t he Commonwealth 1-Not at alL . _ . .

· · You think t hen we should be prepared to enter mto outside competition as well ?- Most

J ecidedly. . - · h

1

A · 1 h tl

Then, if we are to enter into outside wit t 1e men cans, w 10 a ve 1ese

up-to-date appliances, mu st not we do the same to compete with them ?- ' 'V en, _YOU a rc not t? that t he 700 tons furnace the on ly up-to-date one, because not one of the Enghsh furnaces IH uomg that.

James Taylor 15th_June, 1003. 144

299±. Take whichever one you like?-Well, with such furnnces as t hese, 250 tons, you could produce iron at a certain rate. You know what other people would be selling it at, and you know what you can sell it at. 2995. You know aJl about that ?-I don't know that I do.

2996. Do you think with furnaces of that capacity we could compete in the open market with America, Germany, and England ?-vVh ere 1 2997. In the open m'trkets of the world ?-vVe could not send to America, co uld we. W e could not expect to do so. I doubt if we could expect to send to England. We do not expec t to send to

Austria or Belgium. 2998. Are those the only people who use iron ?-No, but we could send all over the Common­ wealth, and to New Zealwd. 2999. Take N ew Zealand. With an establishment like yours, could we in Australia successfully compete with America, England, and Belgium, in the open market in N ew Zealand ?-I do not know about that. The point is here, that we co uld produce iron and put it in Sydney cheaper· than we could get it from outsid e, else it is no use putting up the works. I think we can do tha t. If we can produce good quality iron for 40s. per ton, and for 50s. per ton put it down at Sydney-we cannot get English or American iron for that- it is a question of carrying it to N ew Zealand.

300J. That being your opinion, do yo n think there would be a,ny necessity for a protective duty for people who went into the industry ?-No. 3001. Do you think under these conditions the Federal Government would be justified ingiving then:1 a bonus ?- I do not think so.

3002. You spoke in connexion with the Qu ee nsland deposits, have you examined any other deposits except the Ipswich one ?-No. I have not seen any nor reported on any. Com ing back to the bonus. 1 t is the first step that costs. To get over the difficulty 1 would make some arrangement, as 1 have sketched , so th11t it would not be any cost to the community. The bulk of the people here are consumers and not produce rs of iron.

300 I. I understand you do not know much a bout Lithgow coal or coke ?-No. 300,i. In regard t o this question of guarantee of the States, I don't quite understand you in that Am I right in thinking that yo u wa nted a guarantee to be given of all t he State imports for 21 years ?-I do not mean all t he State imports. I mean s uch material as is produced in those works of equal quality r equired by t he Government to be taken by tho Government, so that you see the Government is not handicapped in any way.

3005. That g uarantee having been given, and works started under it, how would you divide that guarantee if two other works came into existence 7-It costs a lot of money to es tablish ironworks. £100,000 does not go very far in that direction, so that you see people will not lightly establish works, especially if there is an ironworks going. If they did establish other works it would be because it was a good thing, and that the established works were making well out of it. Suppose they establish works, put them on the same footing. They would have to take their proportionate share of the guarantee.

3006. You would have to put some stipulation in the g uarantee, in the event of new works coming along they wo uld get a portion of it ?-Most decidedly. 3007. Do you think under a system of that sort would any one embark t heir capital in it ?-vVhy not. With our natural conditions, cheap ore, and a market here, I do not see why they should not invest.

3008. I understood you t o say we a re at a disadvantage here in regard to labour conditions?­ Simply that, wages are higher. 3009. In the event of a guarantee being given by the Governments to take the product, do you think it would be a fair thing to have conditions of labour inserted in the agreement with the

Govemment ?-I would not have any conditions at all. Our conditions are more like those in the States, high wages, which means mechanical appliances are more largely utilized there than in England. 3010. Y ou would not be in favour or' mention being made that the men shoi.tld be paid certain wages ?- No, you could not keep men if the ruling wages outside were higher in the country. .For a time

you would have to pay high wages to a portion of the men, and that would take care of itself. 30ll. Does what you said about the deposit at .Tamberoo apply to all the deposits on the south coast ?-I have only seen that particular on e. 3012. By Jllh. Watson.- In America, as you just now said, they economize the cost of iron production by using labour-saving appliances ?_:They must do it.

3013. In your estimate fo r 40s. per ton at Lithgow, had you appliances of that sort in view,or was it on the English system of more manual labour being applied ?--Suppose you are turning out 700 tons a day, in the old style you would have sand pits for the iron to be nm into. But you could not get floor space near a furnace of that so rt, so that appliances must be available to run the stuff into moulds and send it right away into the trucks at once, and not use sand at all. So fa t· as possible everything up to

date, but not up to size should be used. 3014. ' Vhat I wanted to know was when you made up your estimate of the cost of production at Lithgow, had you in view the use of t hese labour-saving appliances generally ?-My opinion was more after the English fashion, because even if wages were increased we should not have to pay any r0yalties, and less in cost for raw material.

3015. So that any company com ing in using t hese labour-saving appliances would have a chance of getting below the 40s. on your basis ?- Yes. 3016. By lib·. TVatl!.ins.-With regard to this State arrangement with t he different Governments of Australia, have you only looked at that from the stand-point of one State or for the Commonwealth 7 - The Commonwealth.

3017. I s the price of pig iron t he s:tme in every State ?-It would not be the same, but there is not a great difference.

145 · J ames Taylor , 15t h June, 1903.

1571

301 8. Take a shipment of pig iron from England, t he ship touching at Fremantle, Adelaide, Mel­ bourne, and then Sydney. vVould y(') u base t hese prices the same in each State t hat you get at the works would not be a great difterence.

3019. Take it the other way. Suppose yon we re producin cr pig irou in Sydney, have yo u calculated the freight of b oving that made article brought from Sydney to Frcmantle ?-No. 3020. A re you aware that it would be as high or higher than the English freight to F reman tle - It would be cut out in that case.

3021. It would not pay t hem in t hat case to •wcep t the State guarantee?-\ Vhat would be t he freight to F remantle? 3022. Abou t £ 1 per ton. Roughly t he sa me as h om Engbnd ?-vV ell, the iron could be pro­ duced for .£2 l Os. in this Stn.te. The price in t his State wo uld be consider::tbly lower than the price

charged to other Stat es, and if the English article is sold in \ Vestern Australi1t at .£1 less than it is sold here. t he W e:stern Aust ralian Government \vould haYe to pay mo re than the Government of t his State. 3023. H ave you considered, too, that all t he States would haYe to enter into tl1i.: agreement?­

Well, I look upon it as a case fo r the Commonwealt h. 3024. But we do not use the State goods. Freight on imported machinery to \Ve:Jtern _\ustralia would, I think, be considerably lO \Y Ol' than from Sydney to Fremtwtle. Bci11g opposed to tho bonus or duty, and having gone int o this yourself, wo ul d yo u care to gixc your opinion as to the

r eason why people have not in the ind ustry ?-You }mow ,..-hat has been sbtcd from time to time. P eople have been on the point of investing . . A little before 109 1 ot· lSD::l it was spoken :1bout. But people have not always known about the deposits here, tmd it did not occur to any1ocly to send out t o find it, and t he people here have not pushed the matter.

3025. Men have been brought out here once or t wice?- Yes. One reason why the thing was stopped was on fi.Cco unt of the labour conditions. There wtts an attempt to smelt ::Lt F itzroy, and it was a failure. 3026. H ave you inquired as to the reasons of Hobertson ha;o; something to say

about it. The thing does not seem to have been well man[Lged , [Lnd the conditions do not seem to have been there. They had to pay an extravagant sum for the raw material. I think t lwre were good reasons for the b ilure. 3027 . Taki:1g the possibilities of expor t, do you think we should haYe

in the Eastern market 'I--I£ you can produce it as cheaply as the Americans

-Well, if you want capital for a new t hing it is not easily rai8ed . People will invest in gold mining because it has been going on for years and years, but nobody would t!tke it up at first. 3029. The same thing obt ains in coal Yes. As I said before, it is the first step t hat

cost s. 3030. W e have had the experience time after time. \Ve have had any amount of failures in coal production and still t hey invest , and here we sec in your figures a distinct difference of 50 per ce nt . in price only operat es for t he Sydney market. Coming from England you say there would be a

considerable diffe rence to Fremantle, but t here would not be a large difference for MclLourne or Brisbane. 3031. Y our evidence t hen respecting the cost of production l1ere as against the imp01-tcd only applies to Sydney, and consequently would not affect the position so f

concerned ?-Yes. 3032. It would not be very beneficial to the peopl e producing so far as the colonies are concerned ; failing to get that idea of all the States agreeing t o an arrangement of that sort,_ would you be prepared to let the matter rest for the present and let t he people develop it ?-I should wa1t.

(Taken at M elbmtrne.) THURSDA Y, 2 ND JULY, 1903. Commissioners preaent : The Right Ron. C. C. Chairman;

Mr. J oseph Cook, l.Ir. Mauger,

Mr. vVinter Cooke, Mr. l.IcCay,

Mr. Fuller, l\Ir. ·watkins,

Mr. L . E . Groom, Mr. Watson.

Mr. K irwan, James F ord P earson, engineer, Gawler, South A ustralia, sworn and examined. 3033. By the Chairm an.-Are you the mamwrr for .i\Iess rs. Martin and Co. Limited 7-I am their work's manager.

3034. How long have you been employed by the fi rm ?-This is the fif th year of my employment . 3035. Y our experience in ironworks has been considerable ?-Since 187 3. 3036. H ave you been able t o form any opinion as to whether the establishment of iron manufac­ t ures from ores in Australia would be of advantage to thP community?-Yes.

3037. What is your opinion 7-.From returns, I do not quite kno\\. the quantity which is usually consumed in the States. 3038. That would be the basis on which to judge 1-I can only judge from our own comumption, and t hen assume t hat there ar e so many manufacturers, and what they would take.

F.l050l. L

James F P earson,. July , 1903.

146

3039. I want you to give us the benefit of your experience and judgment ?-In Canada, the output of pig-iron was 3I9,000 tons in I902, 246,000 tons in I 90I, 87,000 tons in I900. The output has gradually grown from I895, when it was -l8,000 tons. lYiy figures are taken from the E ngineer, which came out two mails ago. There is no doubt that of last year's production in Canada a great deal was exported to the United States, as they were short of iron. In the United States, t he demand was so great that it overran their capacity to prod uce. In Canada, t he bonus $3 a ton on pig-iron smelted from local ores, $2 ·50 a ton on pig-iron smelted from imported and an additional $3 a ton on all

mild steel that· was converted from the pig-iron. I saw lately that Canada paid last year $ I ,OOO,OOO in bonuses on pig-iron alone. Last year the output was mainly from seven fumaces. There a re fourteen furnaces in all, but seven of them are old fashioneci, and have been practically shut down. 'l'here are other works now in progress to p rod uce ore iron and Jmve a share of t his bonus.

3040. Do you draw certain from the progress in Canada should say that a great.

deal of the Canadian output has been exported to the United States to make up t heir deficiency for t he last year. Even up to the present time their producing capacity for pig-iron is not able to meet the demand, and they have had to import. D uring the last nine or t en months they have taken probably 60,000 or 70,000 tons from E ngln,n d. No doubt they must have drawn very heavily from t he Dominion Iron 1md Steel Company at Sydney, in NoYa. Scotia. No doubt the Canadian output has not all been consumed in Canada.

3041. What is your experience as regards Australian needs in pig-iron ?-I do not know what the importations are, but taking t he ordinary class of work I should think that tons of pig-iron a

year would be sufficient. Of co urse, there is so much more mild steel used. A s regards rails, the Government would be the largest consumer all the time ; but generally speaking, the consumption of mild steel, in the form of plates, bars, and so on, will be greater than that of pig-iron. At least, we use far more mild steel, or mild steel bars, a nd wrought iron, than pig iron.

3042. Would 20,000 tons a year represent the importations for the whole There are extraordinary increases due to large pipe contracts, and so on, or work in which a mass of cast iron is t urned out; but I should think that, for ordinary manufacturing purposes, not more than 20,000 tons of pig iron are imported into A ustralia.

3043. I suppose that the use of pipes for water conservation and irrigat ion is likely t o continue? -That may go on. 3044. How many thousands of tons arc consumed do not know what was the total co nsump­ tion in Australia last year.

3045. You are not aware whether the co nsumption of pig in A ustralia last year was :tbout 48,000 tons ?-No; I am only judging from our ordinary class of wo rk. W e never can take pipe contracts. I am only judging from what would be used outside t he consumption of large quantities of pig-iron for common work.

3046. You do not touch pipe contracts 7-Not at all. 304 7. It is all small machinery t hat you make machinery-all finished work. 3048. At what price are you able to obtain pig generally 7-\Ve have a! ways to buy a good quality of pig-iron- what is generally known as No. l Clyde and No. 3 Clyde. It does not pay us to bring out a poor quality, so we purchase No. I Clyde, as we did a little time ago when iron was a bit dear, at 68s. a ton in Glasgow; it cost us just under £5 a ton wh en it was landed at the works. No. 3

Clyde generally runs from 52s. to 55s. a ton in Glasgow, but the freight and charg€s are just the same in each case. No. 3 Clyde, that we purchased at 54s. or 55s. a ton, may cost us about £ 4 5s. by the time it is landed at t he works. 3049. It is rather inferior to No. I is absolutely necessary to make a mixture. You co uld not make a casting with No. I , and be sure of it. You have to get various grades, containing different qualities, in order to make a casting to suit your purpose. We never attempt t o use the very rough stuff, what we would cn.ll Cleveland iron, East Coast of England iron, and Middlesbrough iron ; it is fit for pipe work, but it is not fi t fo r our class of work. It is sold in England at about 43s. to 44s. a ton.

3050. The stuff required for pipe work is of a lower grade t han either of the grades required for Yes ; it is a low grade iron. It varies from 42s. to 46s. a ton. It depends on the price of

the lYiiddlesborough and Cleveland iron ; but usually t he freight is about 25s. a ton, to which have to be added port charges and wharfages. 3051. How much do you put them down at?-The bare shipping charges would average 25s. a ton.

3052. I suppose that, if you can bide your time, it is cheaper 1-No. We lately cabled for 100 tons to come out by sailing boat, but the freight remained about the same. 3053. By .ilb· . .Joseph Coolc.-Do you ever get any brought out for nothing ?-No ; I wish we could.

3054. I know there was a time in South Australia when the vessels would give 5s. a ton for lead ores as ballast, in order t o load up with wool afterwards ?-We do not get anything brought out for nothing. We found out that it averages about 25s. a ton, even by sailers. 3055. By the Chai1·man.-In you r opinion, would it be of advantage to manufacturers, such as your firm, if pig or mild steel were locall y manufact ured 7-It wo uld depend entirely on the quality. In our business we requi re to have certain grades of pig iron. It would be of no use to us to try to use an inferior grade. Any mild st eel has to be imported. It does not suit us to get t wo grades of mild steel in plates. \ Ve must have the best grades . Our work is of such a. nature that we may require a plate of any shipment to have any kind of work done upon it. A common plate wo uld not stand the work, and

would have stocks of stuff which we could not use, it might be, for years. So we al ways get the

hrghest quality of plate on which we can do anything t hat is required. 3056. As regards the W e require to have fairly good qualities. Of co urse there are

some special pig-irons at a very much higher price, which we have to use for locomotive work, and even for ordinary cylinders. Those t hey could never hope to make here, I suppose.

147 J ames F. Pearson, 2ndJuly, 1903.

1573

3057. 'Why not ?-They a.re only used in small quantitie3 . The Blena von, lVIadeley-vVood, Farnley, and Summerlee brands are generall y t he brands of which we have to get small stocks to mix with the Scotch iron, in order to bring out < L casting which will be suitable for its purpose. 3058: vVhat is the price of imported mild steel ?-It vn.ri es very much. Take, for instance, rulled made of b

price of from the cast coast of England. It is

\Ve always get the open-hearth steel. The price j ust depends upon t he market in England. By the time it is handled out of the yard into t he shop, I da re say it stands us in at from £10 to £ 10 lOs. a ton.

Much waste occu rs in cutting off p ieces, wh ich are of no good to us. Vv e have to charge the raw material at a high rate in order to make up for t hat lo::;s. It is the same wi th pig irun. I da re say that in

very big castings, like pipe works, the would not be more t han 3 per cent . ; but when you come to work up the finished ma terial, to do your machining, and make a comparatively small casting, and there is so much splashed about the Hoor that ve•·y often a machined casting would b e 10 or 15 per cent. lighter when it was fini shed than when it left the foundry. You cannot do anything with small cuttings, except

to make roads and to put on the floors. It is the same with mild steel or wrought iron. Very often, with a finished forging, you wi ll get a way wi th 50 per cent. of the weigh t . Our class of work iH mostly finished work. Into a winding engin e, or power engine, which may weigh 30 tons, very likely we have pu t from 3:3 to 3-1 tons of materittl. The res t gone in cutting.·, and so on. Of course, in common work the losses a re nothing like th

3059. Is the stuff which is lost suitable tiCrap ?- No; yo u can do nothing with it. It is only large pieces that you m::ty shear off which J11ay go into sc rap. It does not suit us to forge. It is ::til very well. Supposing tha t we b::t ve a huge pil e of sc rap, and S1111dford and others come ::tlong and offer us 12 >;. 6d. a ton delivered in Sydney. [tis not worth our while to take t he stuff down to Port Adelaide, and put i t on board a ship for Sydney. vVe generally reckon ou r scrap as absolute loss.

3060. By il11·. J oseph Cook .- Is that about the price which Mr. Sandford offers as a rule ?-It is so mething like l2s. Gd . a ton. I tried him seYe ral times, but I do not think t hat he would ever give us £1 a ton fo r the stuff delivered in Syd ney. 3061. Would th::tt scrap be fairly good material fo r re-wo rking ?- It would be good ma terial for

any place which wn.s equipped for working it up. Scrap takes an awful quantity of coal to work it up, but you could not work it up into bars a,t

could not take t he pl ace of pig iron. I t is bought by the rolling mill s, but we are so far off t hat we cannot come to any terms with t hem for t he disposal of t he sc rap. 3063. By the Chairman .--How far a re your works from Port Adelaide 1-Twenty-seven miles, even by Dry Creek. Occasionally, if we cared to keep a look-out, we migh t be able to get a ketch to

take a cargo to Sydney or anywhere else, but t he profit that we should make would be so little that it is not worth botherin g about. \Ve came to t he conclusion that it was not worth om· while to handle the scrap at the price which was offered. 3064. By Jfr . Joseph Cook .-I take i t that that scrap would be admirable for re-rolling into

wrought iron 1-N o ; only for re-rolling into mild steel. Generally the colonial rolling mills buy scrap of all qualities- wrought iron and mild steel mixed together- and r oll it into bars, and the trouble is that one fo ot of a bar may be of a different texture from the next fo ot. It has to be picked over, if it is to be done properly. If t he two qualities are mixed together, you are always in t rouble ; you a re always finding that one part of a bar is of a different composition from another part.

3065. I may mention that it is picked over carefully at the rolling mills ?-\Veil, we have had a little experience of the bars. .

3066. By the Chairmcm.- Have you formed any opinion as to the possibility of the successful establishment of the manufacture of iron in A ustralia from its ores ?-I should say that if t he demand is equivalent to running a furnace of 200 tons of pig iron per day, it should be a very succe. sful business, if they are able to sell at a price which would take the colonial market. Of course, t he greater portion

of the pig iron wo uld be worked up into mild steel or rails. An out put of 200 tons a day does not amount to much . There are many furnaces working with an output of 150 tons a day,. b.ut . t he larger t he furnace, of course, t he less a re the labour expenses. A 350-ton per day furnace, 1f 1t 1s properly arranged, can be h::tndled with about 15 men for eight hou rs.

3067. The expense is distributed over t h e larger quantity1-Yes ; you canaverageyou r expenses over the larger output, if you are equ ipped with the latest modern The improw me.nts have come about during the last three years ar e such that probably th ere I S no works yet eqmpped w1th t he latest practice. These people fmd an advantage in getting the cheapest arrangements t hey can have.

3068. They do not have the expense of a useless plan t ?- N o. Others have lmd to reject old plants, and put in new plants. 3069. By ilfr . .Joseph Cook. - - But with their modern output, ca,n t hey afford to in stal t he latest appliances at once?- Yes ; with a 200-ton a day output they can have the latest appliances . The stock­

yard-that is the area in which your ores coke are stacked-is equipped handling machinery tha t pick s up a 6 or 1 0- ton lot, takes 1t off to t he furnace, w1th t he rmmmum of handhng, and

then comes the utilization of the waste furnace gases for po"·er. 3070. B y the Chainnan.- That is co nsuming their own smoke 1- Yes. It dispenses with or steam engines ; the wast e ga,ses supply all the power which is wanted . 307 1. Are you acquainted with the iron resources of Aust ralia, ?_ I do not know what the analysis of the Tasmanian supply is; no doubt there is a wonder ful ma ·s of iron ore, but it is too far away from ·

the coal.

L Z

James F. Pearson, 2nd July, 1903. 148

3072. Of course, you know that in England ores at·e transported a long distance to the coal 1-Yes. Just now the Spanish supplies hav0 fallen off-they are not averaging more than 42 or 43 per cent. of iron-and ores are now being drawn very largely from the extreme north of Norway. About three months ago a new port was opened within the Arctic circle. The Norwegian Government r:an a railway line for 48 miles to the iron mines, .s,nd the iron company have guaranteed to transport, I think, 1,200,000

tons a year over the line for shipment to England and Germany. 3073. How far is the Iron Knob from the coast of South Australia ?-Forty odd miles. 307 4. Do you know the Tasmanian deposit 1-N o; but I should think it would be pretty close to the coast, and it is of very high grade. 'l'aking an average mixture for the smelting of iron ores abroad, it requires 18 cwt. of coke to produce a ton of pig iron; but of course the ore is of comparatively low grade. Probably the mixture that goes into the furnace there will not contain more than 39 or 40 per cent. of iron, while here t hey have 60 or 68 per cent., so that they are in a much better position to produce pig iron cheaply.

307 5. ·would it be a considerable convenience to manufacturers if local supplies were always available ?-Yes. We should not have to keep such heavy stocks on hand as we do, provided that we co uld get our supplies from the works within a re

307 7. Do they appear to you to exist in sufficient quantity to warrant the establishment of any manufacturing works?-Yes; it all depends upon whether this one company can produce the different grades which a,re necessary. One g rade will not do for all purposes. 3078. I suppose you ha,ve noticed that the iron deposits are distributed ever the various States, are of different qualities?-Yes; t hey may have to bring ores from other placas to t heir works in

order to make the necessary blends. 3079. By Jfr·. Watson.-In order to make different grades, is it necessary to have more than one furnace running, or can one furnace be blown out and started afresh ?-After you have made so many hundred tons of one grade, you feed in another mixture, in order to produce another grade. There is no occasion to shut the furnace clown ; it is simply a question of mixing the ores. Of course, mild steel will be their main standby for making rails, plates, and so on. Jf they were to start now, they could have the means of making different qualities of mild steel cheaper or clearer, better or worse, to suit a particular job.

3080. By the Chairman.-You said that you have had 30 years' experience ; in what countries ha,s it been gained 1-I have had twenty years' experience in A ustralia, and ten years' experience in England, Germany, Russia, and so on. 3081. Ry 111?-. jJfauger.-Do you favour a bonus, such as was provided in the Bonus for Manufactures Bill, which was introduced in the House of Representatives last session 1-Yes.

3082. W"hat is your opinion in regard to the imposition of a customs duty ?---If a duty were to be imposed on the raw material it would mean t hat there must be some corresponding duty on the fi nished work. 3083. If that were done, you would not object to a duty ?-No; but I t hink that a duty would tend to diminish the consumption of material, except by the variou s State departments. I think that the price of articles would become so much clearer that people would do without them, and that many industries, particularly low-grade mines, which could be developed and worked to a large extent, would give up any such idea owing to the extra cost which they would be charged for machinery.

3084. You do not t hink that there would be sufficient competition amongst the manufacturers of iron to keep the price down?-You know very well tha,t if you put an import duty on the raw material, the iron smelters will take advantage of it. 3085. The question is on what price is the duty to be charged 1-To t he English price there have t o be added 25s. a ton for freight, 5s. a ton for wharfage charges in the shipping and receiving ports, and the buyer's commission . Your cha,rges amount to 30s. a ton, which is over 50 per cent.

3086. Does not that apply equally to the manufactured article and the raw material?-No. Because in the case of the fo rmer, you pay 30s. a ton freight on stuff which by virtue of t he work done on it has been raised in price to probably £40 a ton before it has been shipped. 3087. Th e cost is not so great in the case of the manufactured article as in t he case of the raw material ?-No. You pay the same freight-25s. a ton-on the raw material as on the finished material, vrh ich has already had its value raised by perhaps £ 20 or £30 per ton in wages, irrespective of the cost of the raw material.

3088. How does the price of the goods which you manufacture com pare with t he price of the goods which are imported?-Very favorably, but we cannot make the profit t hat the English manufacturers do. 3089. Why ?-I know work for which £100 a ton is paid in England, but we can never get it.

3090. Is that on account of the youthfulness of the place ?-A good many of the works with which we deal, particularly mines, have their directorates and so on in London, and there are certain rings within rings whereby they get control. 3091. By J111·. jJfcCay.-You mean that tbey pa,y a bigger price beeause they have friends in England?-Very often they pay a bigger price because they have their particular friends in London.

309 2. By Jvh. TVatson .-They may have Brown's machine in London, and a better machine from Jones out here, which they do not know anything about ?-Yes. 3093. By J£1· . .1/au,ger.-Do you find that there is any prejudice against colonial machinery 1-There is some prejudice. Genemlly, you will find that a mine which has been started in a small way, and wishes to increase its plant, prefers to duplicate on the original standard, and import.

3094. Because it is the e:tsiest way of doing it ?--Yes. 3095. By Jh. Joseph C'ook.-They are afraid to take any risks 7-Yes. 3096. By Ll1r. you r line of business what is the difference between the wages here

a.Jid the wages in the old country ?-About 25 per cent.

149 Jame!! P. Pearson, 2nd July, 1903.

3097. They pay more in South Australia than m England for the same class of work ?-The difference might be from 20 to 25 per cent. 3098. You have no minimum wage rule applying to South Australia '1-N o. . . 3099. ·would it affect your manufacture if it were applied would all depend upon what t he

mimmum was. 3100-l. Supposing it were t he same as the minimum wage in Victoria; would it affect your busi­ ness. ?-The minimum wage rule tha.t we are workillg under just now is in connexion with the loco­ motives, and 1t IS Gs . a day fo r employes on that work.

3102. Is Government stipulation ?-Yes. 3103. By fll1 ·. Wctts on .-DG you ordinarily pay less t ha n that but to ordinary bbourers, and so on, whose work is very easy, we pay somewhat less than that. 3104. Ry M1 ·. Afmtgm·.- You said that the American markets a re absorbing not only the Canadian

product, but the English product; how do you account for that ?-The demand in America has been so enormous that their furnaces have been unable to produce the qunntity required. I s it owing to the progress of their manuf

are absorbmg all the material produced. 3106. You stated t hat Canada paid last year 1,000,000 uullars in bonuses on pig iron; do you know how many men it fo und employment for At Pittsbu rg, in one of Carnegie's works, where they produce 700 tons of pig iron a day, I think t lt at eighteen men shift handle two furnaces.

. 310!. By 11h. Watkins.-Do they work three shifts a day ?-Yes; b ut, of course, they are eqmpped with extraordinary handling machinery. 3108. By .llh. Joseph Cook.-Do you say that the furnace-men work in three shifts ?-They work day and night in eight-hour shifts. ·

3109 . By JJ/r. 1 1/ct'nyer.-H ave you any idea how many men are found employment for by the grant of bonus in Canada the biggest works now are the Dominion Iron and Steel Co.'s vVorks, at Sydney, in Nova Scotia. They are the most modern works, being equal to any works in America. The other works are small affairs, which are gradually being shut down as being antiquated; but new

works are .being erected in order to get this bonus. How many men it represents per ton of iron pro­ duced I do not know. B ut it would represent a very small number. Taking the operations of producing iron, breaking down ore, and so on, I should say that one ton of pig iron would represent the labour of a man or a man and a half.

311 0. Do you t hink it bas paid Canada to give the bonus do not know whether the bonus is not too high. It was the first country which introduced the bonus system ; whether they have found out t hat they are paying too much for their whistle I do not know; but I should t hink that t he bonus would pretty nearly defray the cost of producing the ore and the coal, and the furnace operations.

311 1. How does it compare with the bonus that we propose to pay think that the bonus of 12s. 6d., which you propose to pay, is too high. 3112. Do you know anything about the works which have been recently started in Japan . 311 3. Or of the Russian works ?- N o. It is many years since I was in Russia. When I was there they were following antiquated English lines.

311 4. \Vh::tt do you think wo uld be an adequate bonus to insure tho industry being developed, taking the total consumption in Australia last year at from 50,000 to 60,000 tons ?-vVith the rich ores, the coal, and the coke they have, I should say that for a period 3s. or 4s. a ton on pig iron ought to be plenty; and that for mild steel of high quality, equal to that which Government specifications generally require-tensil e strength of 27 to 30 t ons per square inch-12s. 6d. a ton would be a fair thing; while on steel which is used for rails, and which is of lower qualitv, I would give a graduated bonus.

3115. By J1k J11cCay.-Do yeu mean the bonus 12s . 6d. per ton on the mild steel to be exclusive or inclusiv e of the bonus of 3s. a ton on the pig iron ?-To be inclusive. I would give them 3s. or 4s . a ton on what they sell as pig iron to outside dealers, and 12s. 6d. a ton on .what they produce and sell as mild steel. On low quality steel, like that of which rails, common ship plates, and tank

plates ara made of, where the purification is not required which is necessary to produce high quality steel, 1 would give a. medium bonus. 3116. By Jvfr. Mctuger.-Have you given any attention to the advisability or possibility of any of the States Governments undertaking t hese works successfully?-No. . . .

311 7. H ave you formed any opinion on t hat subject 1-}fy opmwn I S t ha.t they would never make the works pay. . .

3118. so far as I can see, the States do not carry out their own work as

cheaply as other people can do; they have no t the inducement to so . . .

3119. By Mr . Wcttso n .- How did t hey get on with the p1pe works m Sout h are rrettin()' on · but I cannot see how they can turn out. the pipes for t he money. "' 31'20. By L lfr . Mauger .-Have you noticed that in Victoria the Newport Government workshops have just succeeded in getting a contract for some ?- Y es. .

3121. 'rhat hardly fits in with your t heory 1- I Wish we cou.ld get the Ballarat pn.ce. 3122. Do you think that if the sum which we p ropo: e to give as a bonus we:e. g1ven to a State Government to undertake this work it would not very considerably enhance t he poss1bihty of successful manufacture ?-I do not sav that the bonus should be perpetual; it :;; hould only las t for a certain period.

At the end of that t in:w, if t he country has gone ahead, the indus try should ce rtainly be able to stand alone. I do not see that they have any more right to ask for a perpetual bonus than the lead mines of B roken Hill have to ask for a bonus on lead. 3123. Do you nut think t hat you