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1407

1904.

THE PARLIAMENT OF THE OF AUSTRALIA ..

REPORT FROM 'l' IJ E

ROYAL COMMISSION

ON THE

BO NUSES FOR MANUF ACTlT RES BILL,

TOGETHER WITH THE

PROCEEDINGS, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDICES.

Presented by Command; ordered to be printed, 2nd 1904.

[Cost oj P cc,J;e r. - -P reparat ion, noL given; 1,200 1;opies ; approximate eost of 1 r i:JLin g and publishing, £ 199j.

PrinLed ant! P ublished for t he G ovEttNMENT of t he C oMMONWEALTU o f A u:;TRALIA by RoeT. S. i3B.A il<, Government Printer for the State of Victoria.

No. 2.-F. I 050 L

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1409

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA.

TENNYSON.

GREETING-

EDWARD, bY_ t!te (}race of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the British Dornmwns beyond the Seas, Ktng, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of I ndia.

TO our trusty and well-b eloved Councillors the Right lionomble CHARLES CAMERON KINGS'l'ON P.C. K G .. our Ministe1· of S tate for Tmde and Custorns; the Right H onomble Sir E;WAR; NICHOLAS CovENTRY BRADDON, P .C., K. C.ffl.G., Member of the House of R epresentatives.

TO 01tr trusty and well-beloved the Honorable SAMUEL WINTER CoOKE, Memb er of the House of R epresentatives ; JOSEPH CooK, Esquire, Jli ember of the H ouse of R epresentatives ; GEORGE WARBURTON Fur"LER, Esq1tire, . M ember of the H ouse of B:epresentatives ; LITTLETON ERNEST GROOM, Esqutre, M embe1· of the H ouse of R epresentatives; WILLIAM MOlmiS H uGHES, E squire, .Member of the llo1tse of R epresentatives ; J o HN WATERS K IRWAN, E sq1tiTe, .Memb er of the H ouse of R epresentatives ; SAMUEL MAUGER, Esqui•·e, jJfember of the H01t8e of R ep1·esentatives ; D AviD WATKINS, Esqui1·e, Member of the H ouse of R qyre ­ sentatwes _; J OHN CHRISTIAN WATSON, E squu·e, jJJ embe1· of the H ouse of R epresentatives.

KNOW ye that we do, by these our L ette1·s Patent, ap1Joint yo1t to be Commissioners to inqui1·e into the provisions of a Bill Jm­ an Act Relatmg to Bonuses for the Encouragement of Jliamtfactu•·es introd·uced in to the H o1tse of R epresentatives in the last Session of the Parliament of ou1· Commonwealth of A ustmlia, and to continue the inquiTy commenced by a Select Committee of the JJ ousc of R epresentatives in relation to the said Bill ; and we appoint you the said CHARLES KINGSTON to be t h e ChaiTman of the said Commissioners ; and we direct that at any m eeting of the said C01mnissione1·s three Commissione1·s shall be s1tffi-cient to constttute a quorum, and may proceed with the inquiTy intrusted to yon 1mder these our L etters Patent, notwithstanding the

ab ence of the other Commissioners; and we f urther direct that in the event of the absence of the Chairman fr om any meeting of the satd Commissioners, the Commissioners prese nt may appoint one of their number to act as Chairman during such absence ; and we /1trther direct that in the event of the votes given on any question at any m eeting of the said Comrnissisoners being e:Jual , the Chainnan, if present, and i f the Chairman is not present, then the Cornrnissioner appointed to act as Chainnan tn hts absence, shall have a second or casting vote ; AND we requi1·e you, with as little delay as possible, to 1'Cpo1·t to our

Governor-General in and over our said Commonwealth the result of your inquiries into the mattas intrustecl to you by these o1tr Letters Patent : I N TESTil\10NY WHEB,EOF we have caused these ou1· L etters to be made patent and the Seal of our said Commonwealth to be thereunto affixed.

(L.S.)

WITNESS our trusty and well-b eloved the Bight Honorable HALLAM, BARON T ENNYSON, Knight Commander of Most Distinguished 01·deT of Saint 1YI ichael and Saint GeoTge, our Governor-Geneml and Commander-in-Chief in and ove1· our Commonwealth of Australia, at Melbourne, this fi ft eenth day of J anuw·y, One thousand nine hundred and thTee, and in the

second year of our reign.

By His Excellen01j's Command, EDMUND BARTON. E NTERED on record by me in R egister of Patents No. 1, 1Jage 151, this sixteenth clay of J anuary, One thousand nine hundred and thre.e.

ATLEE H UNT,

S ecretary, Departlnent of External Affairs.

COJlOION WEALTH OF AUSTRALIA.

TENNYSON, Governor-General.

GREETING-

EDWARD, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great 1J1·itain and h-eland, and of the 1J1·itish Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender of the Faith, Empemr of I ndia. TO our trusty and well-beloved the Honorable J AMES WHI'l'ESIDE M cCAY, a of the llouse of R epresentatives.

WHEREAS by L etters Pate'(li; under the hand of our Governor-General of the Commonwealth of A dated the fi ft eenth day of January, One thousand nine hundred and three, ou1· trusty and well-b eloved Counc,llors Rtght Honorable CHARLES CAMERON KINGSTON, P .C., K.C., our Minister of State for Tmcle and Customs; and the R

the Honorable SAMUEL WINTER CooKE, jJfembe1· of the House of R epresentatives ; JosEPH CooK, Esqu•·â€¢·e, jJJrmbc•· of the House of R epresentatives; GEORGE WARBURTON FuLLER, Esq1tire, j)!J em.ber of the House of Lo :rnETON E RNEST GROOM, Esquire, M ember of the House of R ew eseniatives ; WILLIAM MoRRIS E squu·e, 1lie;n &er of th e llc11

Memb er of the House of R epresentatives; DAVID WA'l'KINS, Esquire, M ember of the H ouse of w .d JoHN

CHRISTIAN WATSON, EsquiTe, Member of the House of Representatives, weTe appointed to be Comnt>SSWIWI'S to

by a Select Committee of the H ouse of Representatives in relaiwn to the satcl Btll : WHEBEAS tt. •s dest•a&le to a1-1 G 111t you to be a Commissioner to act together with the Commissioners appointed by the aatd Letters Patent the matter o f the sat d inquir : NOW THEREFORE we do by these our Letters P atent ctppoint yo1t to be a to mqutre tnto the

provisrons of the said Bill, and to continue the said inquiry by a _Select C01nmtttee of H ouse of R eF c:

sentatives in relation to the said Bill, to act together with the Commtsswners appotnted by the satcl Lettels Patent and effectually and to the same extent as if your name had been inserted in the sa•d L etters Patent as of .the Ccmmtsswners thereby appointed: AND we dinct that the said L etters Patent be 1·ead m!d construed as •f yow appealed therew as one of the Commissioners thereby appointed : I N TESTDI0:0:Y WHEBEOF tee have cau sed these our L ette1s to be

made patent and the Seal of our saicl Commonwealth to be thereunto affi-:red. WITNESS our trusty and well -belo ved the Right Hono1·able HALLA)[, BA RO:S TE:SKYSOK, K nig!tt Commander of our jJJ ost Distinguished Order of Samt Jlltchael und Sa•ut George,. GU 1 ( ) Governo1·-General and Commander-in-Chief in and over ouT Con!nwmcealth of Australw , < t

L .S. 1J!Ielbourn e, this twenty-thiTd clay of F ebruary, One thousand ntne hw;drcd and thr cl', and

in the thiTd year of our reign.

By His Excellency's Comm-and, A LFRED DEAKI N . ENTERED on R ecord by me in R egister of Patents J>."o. 1, page 152, this t1centy-third day of F ebruary, One tho usand nine

hundred and three.

A1'LEE 1-J UKT,

S ecretary, D epa rtment of External Affairs.

a 2

Royal Commissions

R eport

CON'r

Proceedings of the Select Committee and the R oyal Commission

List of Witnesses and Appendices

Minutes of Evidence taken before the Select Committee

Minutes of Evi:lence taken before the R oyal Commission

Appendices

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xi, xiii

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REPORT.

To His E xcellenr..v tlt e Right HonoralJle rL\ LLAlVI, BARON TENNYSON, Knight Grctncl Cros.'! of tlt e Mo st Di.c:tiuguished Order rzf Saint Jl1ir!t rrPl aucl Swiut George, Gocernor-General aurl Cormnander-ht-Chirf iu and ocer Conunomuealth q( Aztstralia.

MAY IT PLEASE YouR ExcELLENCY-We, the Commissioners appointe(! by R oyal Commission, elated 15th January, 1903, to inquire into the provisions of a Bill for an Act relating to Bonuses for the encouragement of manufactures,

introduced into the House of Representatives in the last session of the Parliament and to continue the inquiry commence(l Ly a Select Committee of the House of Representatives in relation to the said Bill___:.have the honour to report as follows:--1. The . Select Committee held six meetings as follow--at Melbourne . (4), and at Sydney (2), and examined fiv e ·witnesses. The evidence taken by

the Select Committee accompanies this Report, anu has been duly considered, together with the evidence which we have taken as Commissioners.

2. In the course of our inquiry thirty-five witnesses have been examined and meetings have been held at the following places:- -Melbourne (14), Sydney (i>), Brisbane (2), Newcastle (2), and Lithgow (2).

3. The evidence has satisfied us that all the materials necessary for the manufacture of iron from its ores are to be found in various parts of Australia in large quantity and of good quality, and under conditions suitable for the successful establishment of the industry under proper encouragement.

4. Particulars of some of the chief iron mines which are at present known to exist in the Commonwea,lth .are contained in tho evide!lce. to!.tethe!· ,.vith the results of assays. . .

5. Little attention has hithmto been given to iron mining in Australia, and your Commissioners are of opinion that future operations are likely to result in further valuable discoveries of iron deposits . . , 6. Iron and steel are largely consumed in the Commonwca.lth, as appears

from the figures contained in the two succeeding paragraphs.

7. The following are particulars of the iron and steel imported into the Commonwealth during the year 1902 :-P ig-iron ... 28,029 tons, valued at £98,373

Bar and Rod 38,282 tons, valued at £334,636

P late and Sheet 22,627 tons, v.alued at £178,548

Scrap 10,408 tons, valued at £32,907

Galvanized Iron H ,53S tom, valued at

Rails . . . valued at £:)9l, i:i :2:l

Wire (plain) valued a t £ 3G9,3 t> 3

Wire (barbed) valu eJ at £il.-l26

Wire Netting Yal ued at ±:1 35, 16 9

Pipes at. £298, 18:).

In addition, iron and steel machinery to the qlnc of £:2,0:22,;)15 wa.s also impmtc(l during the same period.

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8. The following are particulars of the annual average of iron and steel imported into the Commonwealth during the five years ending 31st "D ecember, 1902 :- · Pig Iron ...

Bar and Rod Scrap Galvanizecl Tron Plate and ShC'ct RailR Wire (plain) Wire (barbed) Wire Netting Pipes The annual average value of Iron and

Steel Machinery importfld during the same peri od was

32,046 tons, valued at. £ 1:20,96:3 59,8 1t9 tons, va lu ed at £fi25,965 8, 431 tons, vfll ued at ±::iO, 1 :30 45,295 tons, valu ed nt £778,666 valued at £151,9+7 vn.lued at £401,675

val ued n.t £3 12,755 valued at £60,449 valued at £ 70,6 10 valued at £304,935

£1,764,041.

9. Some attempts have been made in different places in .\ ustralia t o manu- · facture iron fro m its ores, but the industry has not yet been successfully establi shed, and very considerable capital appears to be needed for the purpose.

10. \Ve are of opinion that if the manufacture of iron and steel were success­ fully established in the Commomvealth it ·would be of great public advantage for various reasons, of which the principal are-(a) It would be an important addition to Australian industries, giving

employment to capital and labour. The iron industry is by many well described as the foundation of all other industries. (b) The local supply of material would be a great advantage to

local

11. In our opinion it is desirable to encourage the local establishment of this industry.

12. Encouragement is specially needed in the initial stage of the industry to secure th e requisite capital. The existence of powerful ri val vested interests else­ where and the novelty of the enterprise, so far as · Australia is concerned, induce some hesitation in investing on the part of capitalists.

13. Your Commissioners are of that the necessary encouragement can best be supplied in the form of a bonus on the manufacture of iron and steel from Australian ores.

14. Your Commissioners draw attention to the fact that the bonus system of Canada has immensely stimulated iron and steel production in the Dominion, and your Commissioners are sanguine that the course now proposed will be pro­ .ductive of good results in Australia.

. 15. Your Commissioners do not lose sight of the fact that the bonus syst em in Canada was accompanied by a cluty on imports. Your Commissioners, however, do not recommend the immediate imposition of a Customs duty, as, pending a local supply sufficient for Australian requirements, the result might be to t emporarily raise the price to the consumer, which should be avoided.

16. Your Commissioners have obtained the annexed opinion of the Honorable the Attorney-General, which shows that the power ·of the Common­ wealth to conduct manufactures is limited as mentioned in the opinion.

17. No evidence has been produced which would lead your Commissioners to believe that any State Government contemplates undertaking the establishment of iron works or any abandonment of its position as indicated in the correspondence between the Federal Government and th e States laid before the House of Repre­ sentatives on the 29th July, 1902.

18. Your Commissioners beli eve that the proposed bonus on spelter would su hstantially encourage the utilization of quantities of zin ciferous ores at Broken Hill. It is estimated that there are now raisecl on the surface and available fo r trratment about 3,500,000 tons of this materi

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19. It has been clearly demonstrated that in connexion with Reapers and Binders, which are not locally manufactured, but ar e chiefly imported from America and Canada, the Australian consumer has been compelled to pay the most exorbitant prices. Machin es worth £1;) or £16 at the port of export have

f[' e(]nently not been procurable at less than £:)£) or £GO by the producer in _.\us­ tralia, though duty free. These prices wore substantially reduced a li ttle before the introduction of the Jiodoral Tariff, but have sin ce boon mise

20. Your Commissioners recommen

of bonuses.

(b) Securing to the Commonwealth or to the State in which the work for the earning of bonus is being chiefly carried on, a right of purchase of the undertaking after a fair interval at a valuation. 21. In conclusion, your Commissioners point out that the most recent events emphasiz e the ever increasing importance of the iron industry, and mark the

question as one to which in our opinion early governmental and parliamentary attention is highly desirable in the interests of Australia.

c. c. KINGSTON, CHAIRMAN. LITTLETON E. GROOM. J. WHITESIDE McCAY.

SAMUEL MAUGER. E BRADDof\.T (Exccptastopamgmph(IJ)ofScc- · • l."' • tion 20, fr om which I dissent.) D AVID \VATKINS.

1. We, the u:t?-dersigned member s of the Commission, are against the passage through Parliament of the Bill for the payment of bonuses by the Federal Government for the establishment of the iron industry ·within the Commonwealth. 2. We recognise that the Commonwealth possesses vast deposits of iron

ore of high grade, coal, &c., for iron works. ,.\ mple evidence has been given to satisfy us on that p oint . Furthermore, we believe it would be a CODSi(lerable advantage to have the industry in operation i11 a flourishing condition, and on a proper basis. In our opinion, however, such a desirable result "·onld not l:e best promote

3. The Bill provides for the payment of £324,000 of the people's money to private individuals engaged in an enterprise for their private gain. There can be no guarantee that the bonuses propose

sp eculative companies.

. 4. 011 e of the witnesses, Mr. Sandforcl, managing director of the Eskbank Iron Works, N mv South Wales, stated that he luul made an agreement with an Engli sh syndir-ate to spend £250,000 in extenfling the Lithgow works if the Bill passed. In answer to another question, l\'Ir. Sandford said that to make pig-iron

he wanted a plant involving an expcn(liturc of from £ ] 00,000 to £ 125,000. This estimate is less than half the sum nro;wsefl to he paid in bonuses.

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5. The Canadian experience· is not encouraging. The bonus system for iron production was first instituted there in 1883. Subsequently a Bill was passed, in 189 7, further continuing the system. Another Bill was carried in 1899 proviJ.ing for the diminution of the bounties by a sliding scale expiring in 1907. In July of this year the Dominion Government decided to postpone the operation of this sliding scale for one year, which practically means a further increase in the bounties paid.

6. Nearly all the witnesses examined befo re the Commission agreed that the payment of bonuses would be useless unless followed by a duty. Experience shmYs that if the payment of bonuses be commenced the liability of the Commonwealth will not be limited to the sum proposed undel' the Bill, but that further Govern­ ment aid will be sought.

7. The evidence failed to show that there was any commercial necessity for the bonuses proposeJ.. Mr. Sandford said he c;ould produce pig-iron at Lithgow under 35s. a ton. A llowing for freight to Sydney, Melbourne, and other parts of the Commonwealth, he coulti, on this showing, compete favorably wit h any im­ ported pig-iron. Other witnesses, who, however, had less experience than Mr. Sandford, doubted the correctness of hi s estimate of cost. But, on the supposition of his having made an under estimate, he would still, even without a bonus, be in an excellent position as compareJ. with the imported commodity. · .

8. No effort was made to bring forward witnesses against the Bill. Nat­ withstanding that fact, the evidence given failed to estalJlish a case in its favour. Several witnesses thought the establishm ent of ironworks in the Commonwealth premature, and much of the evid ence was strongly against any attempt by the

Government to establish the iron industry by the payment of bonuses.

W. lVI. HUGHES.

SAML. WINTER COOKE.

J . W. KIRWAN. GEORGE V{. FULLER J. CHRIS. WATSON.

JOSEPH COOK.

Xl

PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE .

(Melbourne.)

THURSDAY, 4TH SEPTEMBER, 1902 .

Members present:

The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston, Mr. Mauger,

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Mr. Joseph Cook, The Hon. J. W. McCay,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Watkins,

Mr. L. E . Groom, Mr. Watson.

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The Clerk of Committees read t he Extract from the Vo tes a nd Proceedings of the 2nd September appointing the Committee. The Committee deliberated. The Committee adjourned.

WEDNESDAY, lOTH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Mr. Fuller, Mr. L . E. Groom, Mr. Rugh es, Mr. Kingston was called to the Chair.

Members present : The Right Hon. C. C. Kingston, Mr. Mauger, Mr. Watson.

Ordered-That the following powers be asked from the House by the Chairman, viz.:­ To send for persons, papers, .and records. To move from place to place. To have leave to sit at any time. To report the minutes of from time to time.

The quorum of the Committee to be five when sitting at Parliament House, Melbourne, anu three when sitting elsewhere. Ordered-That the days of sitting of the Committee be Wednesdays and Thursdays in the forenoon. Ordered-That a list of witnesses be drawn up by the Chairman and Mr. Watson.

The Committee adjourned.

(Sydney.)

TUESDAY, 16TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Members present :

Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Hughes,

Mr. Fuller, I Mr. Watkins,

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson.

In the absence of the Chairman, Mr. Watson was called to the Chair pro tern. The minutes of the previous meetings were read and confirmed. Edward Fisher Pittman, Government Geologist, New South Wales, and Under-Secretary for Mines, examined.

John Blockley J acquet, Government Geological Surveyor, Department of Mines and Agriculture, New South Wales, examined. The Committee adjourned until to-morrow, at half-past ten o'clock a.m ..

WEDNESDAY, 17TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Members present: Mr. WATSON, in the Chair ;

Mr. Joseph Cook, \ Mr. L. E. Groom,

Mr. Fuller, 1 Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. John Blockley J acquet, further exami ned. The Co mmittee adjourned until Wednes C! ay next , at half-past ten o'clock a.m.

XV

(Melbourne .)

WEDNESDAY, 24TH SEPTEMBER,

Members present :

The Right. Hon . C. C. KINGSTON, m the Chair; Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Kirwan,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Mauger,

Mr. L. E . Groom, · J Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. William Henry Matthews, Warden and Mining Inspector, South Australia, examined. William Harper Twelvetrees, Government Geologist and Chief Inspector of Mines, Tasm ani a, examined.

The Committee adjourned until to-morrow, at half-past ten o'clock a.m.

THURSDAY, 25TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

111 embers present :

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, in the Chair; Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Fuller, The Hon. J. W. McCay

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson,

Mr. Kirwan, Mr. Watlcins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Resolved (ori the motion of Mr. L. E. Groom)-" That the Governments of Queensland and Western Australia be communicated with by letter, and requested to forward a statement shovving the deposit of iron ore in their States, the places were situated, the distance from the sea -coast, and an analysis of the ore."

William Henry Twelvetrees, further examined. William Jamieson, Chairman, Blythe River Iron Mines Limited, examined. The Committee adjourne d.

X Ill

PROCEEDINGS_ OF_ THE .... COMMISSION.

(Melbourne.)

TUESDAY, 17TH FEBRUARY, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Ron. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman ; Mr. Joseph Cook, The Ron. S. Winter Cooke, The Commission was read .

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watkins.

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. IJesolved (on the motion of .Mr. Winter _Gooke)-" That Mr. J . R. McGregor, Assistant Clerk of Commtttees, House of Representattves, be appomted Secretary to the Commission." Resolved (on the motion of Mr. L. E. Groom)-" That the evidence taken before the Select Committee of the House of Representatives on the Bonuses for Ma.nufactures Bill be printed and incorporated with

the evidence taken by the Commission.'' A copy of the evidence taken before the Select Committee was laid before the Commission by the Secretary. Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Watkins)-" That the evidence to be taken before this Commission shall be on oath."

Appendices A and B were put in by the Chairman. Henry York Lyell Brown, Government Geologist, South Australia, sworn ·and examined. The Commissio n adjourned until to-morrow, at half-past two o'clock p.m.

WEDNESDAY, 18TH FEBRUARY, 1903. Commissioners present : The Right Ron. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; Mr. Joseph Cook, . The Ron. J. W . McCay,

The Ron. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Watkins,

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. William Jamieson, Chairman of Directors of the Blythe River Iron Mines LimitE'd, sworn and examined. ·

The Commission adjourned until to-morr?w, at half-past ten o'clock a.m.

THURSDAY, 19TH FEBRUARY, 1903.

Commissioners present : The Right Ron. C. C. K INGSTON, Chairman; Mr. Joseph Cook, The Ron. J. W. McCay,

The Ron. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Watkins,

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Vililliam Sandford, managing director of the Eskbank Iron Works, Lithgow, sworn and examin ed . Hyman Herman, Assistant Director of Geological Survey, Victoria, sworn and examined. Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Watson)-" That the Commission meet again in Melbourne on the 15th April, at half-past two o'clock p.m. , and that the Chairman have power to arrange meetings in New South Wales and Queensland in the meantime."

The Commission adjourned.

(Sydney. )

SATURDAY, 4TH APRIL, 1903. Commissioners present :

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Watkins,

Mr. Mauger, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Mauger)-" That JI.Ir. Watson act as Chairman durin g the absence of the Right Ron. C. C. Kingston." , . . . .

Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Joseph Cook)-" 'I hat the CommiSSion meet at Ltthgow on Monday, Gt h inst., at ten o'clock a.m., for the purpose of inspec tin g Sandfo1d's Ironworks." Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Mauger)-" That the Secretary be instructed to write to the New South Wales Commissioners for Rail ways requesting them to depute an of!icer to give evidence before the

Commission with regard to the special terms, if any, as to fr eights made by the Commissioners in respect t o Sandford's IromYorks at Lithgow, and the policy li kely to be adopted by the Commissioners in re gard to freight in t he event of large ironworks being established at Lithgow and leading to hca\·y traOic th ence to the seaboard. "

The Commission adjourned.

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(Lithgow.)

MONDAY, 6TH APRIL, 1903. Commissioners present : Mr. WATSON, m the Chair;

Mr. J oseph Cook, I Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Commissioners made a visit of inspection to W. Sandford Limited, Esbank Ironw orks, and subsequently inspected the coke ovens of the Oakey Creek Colliery Co. William Thornley, manager of the Eskbank Ironworks, sworn and examined.

Herbert Bladon, iron roller at the Eskbank Ironworks, sworn and examined. William Thornley, recalled and further examined. The Commission adjourned until to-morrow, at half-past nine o'clock a.m.

TUESDAY, 7TH APRIL, 1()03 .

Commissioners present : Mr. WATSON, in the Chair;

Mr. Jose ph Cook, I Mr. Mauger,

.Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confi rmed. William Miller, iron ro lJ cr, fo rmerly employed at the Eskbank Ironworks, sworn and examined . The Commission adjourned until to-morrow, at o'clock a.m.,· at Sydney.

(Sydney.)

WEDNESDAY, 8TH APRIL, 1903. Commissioners present : Mr. WATSON, in the Chair ;

Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins.

Mr. Hughes,

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. James Peter Franki, manager of Mor t's Dock and Eng·ineering Co. , Sydney, sworn and examined. Hector Lamond, President of the Political Labour League of New South Wales, sworn and examined.

Resolved (o n the motion of Mr. Mauger )-" That the Commission move the Department of External Affairs to endeavour to obtain from Canada, J apan, and Russia all the information possible regarding t he iron industry in those countries.'' The Commission adjourned.

THURSDAY, 9TH APRIL, 1903 . Commissioners present : Mr. WATSON , in the Chair;

Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. John Harper, Chief Traffic Manager of the New South Wales Government Railways, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned until called together by the Chairman.

(Brisbane.)

FRIDAY, 1sT MAY, 1903. Commissioners present : The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; Mr. L. E. Groom, [ Mr. Watkins.

R esolved (on the motion of il1r. L . E. Groom)-" That Mr. H. R. Pollard ac t as Secretary and Shorthand Writer to the Commiss ion during the sittings in Brisbane." Benjamin Dunstan, Acting Government Geologist, Queensland, sw orn and examined. Joseph Hargreaves, mining surveyor, Ipswich, sworn and examined .

William Bendley, Ipswich , sworn and examined. Wi lliam Fryar, inspector of mines, Queensland, sworn and examined. Sittings of the Commission at 1.30 o' clock p.m. suspenderl till 8 .. 30 o' clock p.m. , whfln sitt in gs esumed and-

Captain George Anderson Rich ards, metallurgical engineer, Mount Morgan, sworn and examined . The Commission adjourned until to-morrow, at nine o'clock a. m.

inst.,

XV

SATURDAY, 2ND MAY, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon. C. c.· KINGSTON, Chairman; Mr. L. E. Groom, I Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of t he previous meeting were read and confirmed. lionel Clive Ball, Assistant. Government Geo logist, Brisbane, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned.

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Hughes,

(Newcastle.)

TUESDAY, 5TH MAY, HJO:l .

Commissionen present : Hight Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman;

Mr. Watkins.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.

1421

R esolved (on the motion of Mr. Watkins)- " That the Commiss ion adjourn unti l Thursday, the 7th at Sydney, and that a meeting be held at NevYcas tle later on." The Commission adjourned.

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Fuller,

(Sydney.)

THURSDAY, 7TH MAY, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; Mr. Watkins, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Mr . Watson reported that, as Ac ting Chairman, he had written to the Minister for Mines, New South Wales, req uesting that an officer of his Department be instructed to inspect and report upon the recently-reported deposit of iron ore near Piper's Flat. The Minister had acknowledged t he letter and promised to consider the request .

Archibald Forsyth, rope manufacturer, Sydney, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned.

Mr . Fuller, Mr. Watkins,

(Newcastle.) SATURDAY, 1GTH MAY, H!O:l.

Commissioners present : · Mr. Watson.

In the absence of the Chairman, Mr. Watson was callecl to the Chair pro tem . Robert Morison (Morison and Bearby, engineers, ironfounders, and boilermakers, Newcastle), sworn and examined. James Stewart Rodgers, retired engineer and ironfounder, Newcastle, sworn and examined.

TlH' Commission acl j ourned.

(Melbourne. ) THURSDAY, 28TH MAY, l!JOJ.

Commissioners ]Jresent : The Right Hon . C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; The Right Hon. Sir Edward Braddon, Mr . KinYan,

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Mauger,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, The Hon. J. W. McCay,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins,

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the two previous meetings \l'ere rea d and confirmed. The Commission deliberated. The Commissio n decided to print as an Appendix a map, appearing in the Queensland Government Mining Jow·nal of tl1e 15th May, 1903, showing "Some of Qu eensland's Iron, Coal, and Lim estone Resources "-the same block to be used.

The Commission adjourned until Monday next, l st June, at eleven o'clock a.m.

•

•

XVI

MONDAY, 1sT JUNE, 1903. Commissioners present : The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; The Right Hon. Sir Edward Braddon, 1 Mr. Kirwan,

The Hou. S. Winter Cooke, I Mr. Mauger.

Mr. L. E. Groom, I

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Herbert Frederick Cyril Keats, broker, Melbourne, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned until Wednesday next , at eleven o'clock a.m.

WEDNESDAY, 3RD JUNE, 1V00. Commissioners present : The Right. Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman. Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Kirwa:...t,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Mauge1

Mr. Fuller, I Mr. Watkin.:;.

Mr. L. E. Groom, 1

The minutes of the previous mee ting were read and confirmed. Resolved (on the motion of Mr. Kirwan)-" That the Chairman be requested to take any necessary action to procure t he opinion of the Honorable the Attorney-General as to the powers, if any, of the Commonwealth to establish iron works."

John Thompson (Thompson and Co., engineers, Castlemaine), sworn and examined. Richard Greenwood Middleton, manager, Phcenix Foundry Co . Ltd., Ballarat, sworn and examined. Joseph Vaughan, ironmaster, Lion Rolling Mills, South Melbourne, sworn and examined.

The Commission adjourned.

THURSDAY, llTH JUNE, 1903. Commissioners present : The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; The Right Hon. Sir Edward Braddon, Mr. Kirwan,

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Mauger,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, The Hon. J. "\\ \1cCay,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watson.

Mr. Watson was called to the Chair pro tem. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Chairman took the Chair. William Wright, engineer, Melbourne, sworn and examined. William Campbell, engineer, South Melbourne, sworn and examined. William Robertson, consulting engineer, Melbourne, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned.

(Sydney.)

MONDAY, 15TH J UNE, 1903. Commissioners present :

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watson.

Mr. Watkins,

Mr. Watson was called to the Chair pro tem. James Taylor, consulting engineer, chemist, and metallurgist, Sydney, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned.

(Melbourne.)

THURSDAY, 2ND JULY, 1903. Commissioners present : The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman ; Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Mauger,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, The Hon. J. W. McCay,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins,

L. E. Groom, Mr. Watson.

Mr. Kirwan,

'fhe minutes of the two previous meetings were read and confirmed. James Ford Pearson, engineer (works manager, Martin and Co., Gawlcr, South Australia), sworn and examined. The Commission deliberated.

Resolved (on the motion of MT . M cCay) - " That the evidence be closed." The Commission considered a letter from the manager, Eskbank Iron Wo rks (W. Sandford, Limited) . Resolved (on the motion of MT . Mauger) - " That Mr. Sandford can only be informed that the Commis-sion has concluded t aking evidence, and will shortly proceed to consider its report, which, when adopted,

will be forwarded to the Governor-General in the usual way." The Commission adjourned. L_

xvn

WEDNESDAY, 2ND SEPTEMBER, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon.

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. L. E. Groom,

c. c.

I

I

KINGSTON, Chairman;

Mr. Mauger.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.

1423

Resolred (on the motion of Mr. L. E. Groom)-" That evidence be taken on matters in the Bill not a lready dealt with." Charles Frederick Courtney, general manager, Sulphide Corporation Co., Ltd., swom and €Xa mined. ·

Frank Butler, Melbourne manager, Lysaght Bros. Ltd., wire netting manufacturers, sworn .and examined. Attorney-General's opinion as to the powers of the Commonwealth to establish ironworks ; and L etter from t he Acme Bolt and Nut Proprietary Co . Ltd., respecting the iron bonus question­

Ordered to b e printed as appendices. The Commission adjourned.

THURSDAY, 3RD SEPTEMBER, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon.

Mr . Joseph Cook, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Kirwan,

C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman; The Hon. J . W. McCay, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of t he previous meeting were read and confirmed, Hugh Victor McKay, machinery manufacturer, Ballarat, sworn and examined. The Commission adjourned until Thursday next , at eleven o'clock a.m.

THURSDAY, 10TH SEPTEMBER, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon.

Mr. Fuller, Mr. L. E . Groom, Mr. Kirwan,

c. c.

I

KINGSTON, Chairman; Mr. Watkins, Mr. Watson.

: !

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. . .

R eturn of Iron Imports for 1902, prepared by the Customs Department, laid before the Comm1sswn. Walter Stinton, manager, Railway Workshops, Newport, sworn and examined. William Monteath (C. Monteath and Sons, South M:elbourne), sworn and examined. . Thomas Hale W oodro:ffe, Chief Mechanical Engineer, Railway Department, sworn and Robert Shand, representing Mephan Ferguson, engineer, Melb ourne, sworn and exammed.

A suggested Draft Report was laid b efore the Commission by the Chairman. The Commission adjourned until Thursday next, at half-past ten o'clock a.m.

THURSDAY, 17TH SEPTEMBER, Hl03.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon. C. C.

Mr. Joseph Cook, The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Fuller, Mr. L . E . Groom, Mr. Hughes,

KINGSTON, Chairman ; Mr. K irwan, Mr. :Mauger, Mr. Watkins, Mr . Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The suggested Draft Report was considered and amendments suggested. The Commission adjourned until Thursday next, the 24th inst., at half-past ten o'clocka.m· F. l 050l. b

xvm

THURSDAY, 24TH SEPTEMBER, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon. C. C; ;KINGSTON, Chairman; The Right Hon. Sir Edward Braddon, Mr. Mauger,

The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, The Hon. J. W. McCay,

Mr. Fuller, Mr. Watkins,

M:r. L . E . Groom, Mr. Watson.

Mr. Kirwan, The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Return of Iron Imports, 1898-1902, prepared by the Customs Department, laid before the Commission, and ordered to be printed.

The suggested Draft Report was further considered. On the following division as to the recommendation of a bonus-AYES. NoEs.

Sir Edward Braddon, Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Kingston, M:r. Mauger, Mr. McCay, Mr. Watkins.

Mr. Winter Cooke, Mr. F-uller, Mr. Kirwan, Mr. Watson.

And Mr. Joseph Cook and Mr. Hughes being against a bonus, making the Commissioners equally divided, the Chairman gave his decision in favour of a report recommending a bonus. It ·was resolved that the majority Report be prepared by the Chairman, and that a dissent be prepared by Messrs. Kirwan and Watson. ·

The Commission adjourned.

THURSDAY, 22ND OCTOBER, 1903. '

Commissioners present :

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman ; Mr. Kirwan, Mr. Mauger,

Mr. Joseph Cook, The Hon. S. Winter Cooke, Mr. Fuller, Mr. L. E. Grool?-,

The Hon. J. W. McCay, Mr. Watson.

The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed.

; !

The Chairman presented the majority Report, and Mr. Watson the minority Report. The Commission decided to print the Bill as an Appendix. Resolved (on the motion of Mr. FulleT)-" That a hearty vote of thanks be passed to_ the Chairman for the time and attention he had devoted to the work of the Commission."

Resolved (on the motion of Mr. L. E . GToom)-" That this Commission expresses its appreciation of the work done by Mr. J. R. McGregor as Resolved (on the motion of Mr. L . E . G?"Oom)-" That a vote of thanks be passed to those officers of the Commonwealth and State services who have rendered assistance to the Commission."

The Commission adjourned.

XIX

LIST OF WITNESSES.

EXAMI NED BEFORE T HE SEL.ECT COMMITTEE.

P ittman, Edward Fisher Jaquet, John Blackley Matthews, W illiam Henry Twelvetrees, ' Villiam Harper ...

J amieson, W illiam

E XAMI NED BEFORE THE ROYAL COMMISSION._

Brown, H enry Yorke Lyell Jamie on, ' Villi nm Sa ndford, William Herma n, Hyman

Thornley, William Bladon, H erbert Miller, William Franki, James Peter ... Lamond, H ector H a rper, John

Dunstan, Benj amin Hargreaves, Joseph Bendley, William Fryar, William Richards, Captain George Anderson Ball, Lionel Clive

Forsyth, Archibald .. . ::Yiorison, Robert

Rodgers, James Stewart Keats, Herbert Frederick Cyril Thompson, John Middleton , Richard Greenwood

Vaughan, J oseph Wright, William Campbell, W illiam Robertson, W iJJi,tm A.

Taylor, J ames Pearson, J ames Fm·d Courtney, Charles F rederick Butler, Frank McKay, Hugh Victor

Stinton, ' Valter Monteath, ' Villiam .. . ' Voodroffe, T homas Hale Shand, Robert

APPENDICES.

Appendix A.- The Iron Deposits of ' Vestern Australia B.-I ron Ores in Queensland C.- Queensland Iron, Coal, and Limestone Reso urces-Map Showing D.-Acme Bolt and Nut Co. Ltd ., Correspondence from

E .-Attorney-General's Opinion r e Establishment of Iron 'Vorks F.- Spelter (Memorandum to E vidence of C. F . Courtney) G.-Imports of Iron and Steel a nd Machinery, 1898 to 1902 H .-The Bill

1425

P AG R

l - 6

6- 23 24- 27

27- 31, 32 32- 41

42-46 46-52• 52- 59 60-1

61 - 66, 68- 9· 66- 68 69- 71 71 - 76 76- 81 81 -84 85- 88 88- 90

90- 1 91 - 93: 93-101 101-4·

104- 9 109- 112' 112- 14 114- 19·

11 9-l 21t 123-126 127 128- 136; 136- 137 137-140· 140-145· 145-154 155-158 159-161 161 - 165 165- 167 167-169 169-171 171-173:

PAG»

174 177 181 183 184 185 188 193

1427

1\ii N U r_r ]-jj S EVIDENCE.

TAKEN BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE.

(Taken at Sydney.)

TUESDAY, 16TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Mr. Watson, Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Fuller,

Members present:

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. Hughes, Mr. Watkins.

Mr. Vvatson was called to the Chair pro tem .

Edward Fisher Pittman, A .R.S.M., Under-Secretary for Mines and Agriculture, and Government Geologist, New South Vvales, examined. 1. By Jlh. Watson.- I pres um e you know the object of t.he inquiry, Mr. Pittman. The idea is to get from yourself and such others as are available as much information as possible wit h respect to the occurrence of iron deposits in New South 'Wales, and their relation to fluxes and coal, and detail s of

that description ; and also whethe1· have any mformation as to how the deposits are held at

the present time- whether they are in the hands of the Crown, or under lease to individunJs, or on alienated land, or anythiEg of that cannot gi...-e you much detailed information on that last item. Of course I can get it without much trouble. Although I know that some of the land is aliena ted, I could not tell you how much without referring to the plans of the Department.

2. Well, can you give the committee an idea of the general occurrence of the deposits you kindly put the question a little more definitely ? 3. Could you state where the iron deposits occur in sufficiently large quantity t o be of commercial Well, thfl two largest deposits are those of the Cadiangullong Creek, about 12 miles from

Orange, and what are called the Carcoar deposits, about 2t miles from Carcoar. Those are the two largest deposits that we know of. Then t here are a number of smaller deposits, some of which are no doubt of considerable valu e, in the Wallerawang district, ·and there are other deposits, also to some extent valuable, on the southern line in the vicinity of t he Go ulburn district generally, extending as far

down as Picton. These are the most important deposits that one can mention. There are large deposits also on the northern coast, but inasmuch as they contain a considerable proportion of titanic acid, their value for iron smelting purposes is not very great at present. 4. By llfr-. Joseph Cook . .....:..... Where is this the Williams River and the K aruah River, in

the Port Stephens district. 5. What is popularly known as the P ort Stephens deposit?- Y es . 6. By M1·. Watson.- With regard to the t wo largest, Carcoar and Cadi:1., ·whi ch are the nearest coal measures to those deposits '1--The nearest would be at Lithgow ..

7. And fluxing material is handy, I understand 7-It is handy also to the coal mines, that is to say, at Piper's Flat and round in that district . . 8. Could you give an approximate estimate of the quantities in sight at Carcoar and Cadia 1-\Vell, I have not personally measured those myself, but Mr. Jaquet, on the Geological Survey staff, has, and the are all given both in this book of his (" The Iron Ore Deposits of New South ·wales," by

J. B. J aquet, A.R.S.M., F.G.S., Memoirs of t he Geological Survey of N ew South vVales- Geology, No. 2), and there is a summary of them in t he book that I wrot e on the Mineral llesources of N ew South Wales. 9. We want to have the figures repeated in the evidence in co ncise form-you co uld read any-thing from the report t hat you think wo uld be of value. . .

10. By Jl£1·. L . E . Groom. - ! think you said you had it in your own book ?-Y es, but It IS a repetition of this. Mr. J aquet 's report was submitted to me in the first instance, an d I thmk m Mr . J aquet's book, which was published subsequently to mine, there are two lOA. The estimated quant ity of the ore in the Carcoar deposit IS 2,511 ,000 tons m

Pardon me, that was a preliminary estimate; and t he total, when subsequ ntly amend ed, was 3,168,000 tons. 11. By .tfr. Watson .- On page 156 of Mr. J aquet's Mr. Pittman, is _ a summary

given of the districts, description of ore, and the es timated of ?re m Yes.

12. Perhaps, if you were just to give us that., we co uld get It m t he evidence m that form. It is rather complete there '1--

Breadalb!me Cadi a

Dist rict.

Carcoar ... .. . ...

Chalybeate Spring-Deposits of Southern Di strict

F.l0501.

Description of Ore.

Brown ore and Specular hte matite, magnetite, and carbonate ore H

B

Estim<>ted Ui11 immn Qua.ntity of Ore in Tons.

700,000 39,000,00 0 3,000,000 1,510,000

E. F. Pittman, 16th September, H)02. 2

13. By Jlfr. J oseph Cooh;.- Where are they 7- Those are ores in the dist rict about Mittagong.

Cowra r Broula) Goulhurn Gn lgong ... ...

Dbtrict.

Mandur·ama iLnd W'oodstock ... . Marulan Mud gee

Magnetic ore Brown ore .. .

Magnetic ore

Description of Ore.

Brownore .. .

Brown ore and h rn ma tite Brown ore, with manganese

E,;timated 1linimum Qu an tity of Ore in Tons.

J 00,000 1,022,000 120,000 609,000

40,000 150,000

14. \Vhat do you mean by Mudgee 1 [Th e witne,

\Vhat does t hat include 7-That is in the Mudgee district.-

Queanbeyan (Paddy's Point). Rylstone and Cudgegong ' Vallerawang and P ipe t· 's Flat .. .

W illinms a nd Kaurah Ri,·er .. .

Wingello ...

Brown ore a nd magnetic ore Magnetic ore Brown ore .. .

Brown ore .. .

Titaniferous magnetic ore A luminous ore

15 . B y .Jh. Wat;; on-A total of 59,000,000 7-A total of 59,317,000 t ons.

150,000 1,000,000 443,000 200,000 1,973,000 3,000,000

59,317,000

16. JJy JVh. Joseph Cook. - That is in the State altogether?-Yes. That is only approximate. It cannot be regarded as anything more. A nd then , of cnurse, it is necessary t o state that all t hese ores are not by any means of equal quality. For instance, M r. Jaquet's samples were analy2ed in the Departmen t, and those from Carcoar were found to contain a notable proportion of phosphorus, whereas those from- -

17. "\Vhich is fatal to steel-making 1-\Veil, it is fatal to Bessemer steel making, provided i t is over a certain proportion, i.hat is to say, a proportion of O·OG per cent. in the ore. And then he found that the orcs from C1diangullong Creek, or what are termed t he Cadia deposi ts, contained a certain amount of copper and a ce r tain amount vf su lphur; but, as he points out, it is impossible to estimate the percentage of su lphur copper in t-he bulk of the d eposit, bec:a use no exploratory ·work has been done, n,nd it is very possible that large boulders of iron ore, tha t appear on the surface to be pure, may contain in t heir centres some percentage of sulphur. For instance, there may be a kernel of pyrites undecom­ posed. Those are cases that req uire investigation before they are regarded as certainties .

18. By .. lfr. Wcttson.- The larges t deposit seems to be at Cadia 1-That is so. 19. Has there bee n any attempt to open that up at all for any purpose?-Y es. It was opened up for copper mining. There was a considerable excavation made there in connexion with copper working. It has never, I fancy, been a payable copper min e. Then, over and above that fact, you must r emember t hat the oxidize d ores which Mr. Jaquet describes in detail are very mu ch ·purer t han the low0r deposits which hn,ve been worked for copper. In the upper portions the ore has been oxidized, and the probabilities are that the copper has been leached out by the rain. He es timates that there are

1,000,000 tons of this pure oxidized ore, which would probably be suitable for Bessemer steel manu­ facture. 20. Then at Carcoa r, whre there is a large deposit, they have been opening that up for fluxing purposes 7-Y es.

21. Has t here been suffi cient prOSfecting done to give any accurate idea of the quantity avail­ able 7- Yes ; very much more so than in the case of the Cadia deposit. There is a shaft down 100 feet and a drive which J\ir. Jaquet figures in his memoir, and t he character of the ore I under stand from him has not varied to any extent; t hat is, it is just as good at 100 feet depth as it was at the

surface. 22. By lrfr. Joseph Coolc. - I s the ore continuous through the whole of that depth ?-Well, of course, that has not been abwlu tely proved, so fa r as I know, yet. Mr. J aquet would be able to tell you more about t hat than I can, but I should say from his plans and sections it has not been by any means proved yet.

23. By ilfr·. Watson.-Then at Mittagong, again, a ttempts have been made to work the ore in the past ?- Yes; the Mittagong ore in the past has yielded extremely good pig-iron. I have evidence of that from a numler of people who a re interested in it. There is some of it at the present day forming portion of Vickery's ChamberB. 'Ir. e girders which support t he upper stories have been run direct from the furnace. That iron therefore may be regarded as very goo d-som e of it at any rate- but it is evident that those works at Mittag\-ng could never have been profitable for any length of time, because we know now, from prospecting op erations which the Department undertook on my recommendation, that there is not the amount of ore there to have lasted for any time. The deposit was desc ribed by Mr. ·wilkinson as having an average thickness or depth of 25 feet, but we find by actual diamond-drill borings that it is nothing like that. The deepest part was only 19 feet or 19 feet some inches, and in other places it is nothing like that n,t all.

24. It was not suitable fo r getting out large iron masses 7-No. If the Fitz roy Company had not fail ed by reason of the price of labour and fl ux it would ultimately have failed for want of ore. 25 . And then they had some difficulty with their coa.l too7 - Yes. They had to bring their coal from the southern coll ieries an d Lithgow, and it was costing t hem £ 1 or over a ton.

26. lJy J{r. J o.,rp h Cook- There i · coal up there 1- Y es. They subsequ ently foun d coal in a bore, whicl1 gives a very fair ana lysis, at a depth of 600 a,nd some feet. 27 . By 3fT. F ulle'I'.-Have you tested theE e other deposits in the same manner as you tested the Mittagong one 1- \ Yo had w me prospecting work carried out at the deposits near Piper 's Flat, and there, also, it resu lted in show in g that the deposits were not nearly so gren,t as t hey had been described.

S. Did you t est the Carcoar deposit in that way ?--

3

1429

E. F Pittman, 16th September, 1902.

29. l3y M1-. Watson.-! understood you to say that at Carcoar they put a shaft down 100 feet and drove a distance?-Yes; that was done by the Prospecting Board. 30. By .J!JT. J oseph Coole.-You mention 200,000 tons at Waller awang and P iper's Flat. I s that the estimate for the total deposit there 7-Y es. I may mention that in connexion with those P iper

Flat deposits, I inspected them first . I'Ve ha d a very big estimate in the Department, given, I think, by my predecessor, Mr. Wilkinson, and by Professor Liversidge-either one or both, I am not clear which-but wh en we put down these prospecting shafts and drives we found that, imtead of being all iron or e, as it was assumed, it consisted mainly of garnet rock, with certain bunches of iron ore in the

rock; and it is clear that originally it was supposed that all this garnet rock was iron ore. W ell, it cannot be classed a;; iron ore. It contains iron, b ut it is not ir on ore suitable for smelting purposes. So that very materially reduced the estimated amount of ore. 3 1. 'rhose are t he two shafts that were put there in my time 7-Yes.

32. What depth would those shafts go?-One was stopped at about 30 feet or 40 feet, and the other went do,vn l 00 feet certain, perhaps 15,) feet. There was a bunch of brown brematite occurring on the surface. W e put down the shaft, thinking to intercept the ore on the dip ; but we did not

intercept it, so we put in drives, and in every case we found we were below the deposit, which was clearly a bunch. 33. The whole deposit was t est ed thoroughly?- I cannot say that; but the test was sufficient to show that the iron ore occurred in bunches- it wil.s not a lode going down to a depth, but simply a bunch. W e did not test the bunch with a drive to ascertain its dimensions.

34. By 1111-. Fuller.-Is not that a characteristic of the Carcoar deposit as well?-There has not been sufficient work to prove that. According to Mr. J aquet's geological survey, it look s more like as if it occur red in beds there, and, therefore, one wo uld estimate that they were more continuous than the Piper's Flat deposits. There is a sketch section in Mr. J aquet's book showing the occurrence of those

beds at Carcoar. 35. By M1· . Watson.- Under the h eading of Goulburn district, there is a large deposit of brown ore mentioned- 1,022,000 tons. Would that have to depend for coal upon :Mittagong, or somewhere near there 7-Mitt

36. Do you remember particularly where the deposits occur near Goulburn, or are they scattered 1 -They are more or less scattered. 37. In small quantities, of which you give the aggregate ?-Yes; that Goulburn quantity is made up of several deposits.

38. By M1· . Fuller.-What is the reason that the iron deposit in the North Coast district which you refer to iii not of marketable value ?-The presence of titanic acid appears to make the ore very intractable. It is extremely difficult to smelt. There has been a number of patents taken out at different times for th e t reatment of ores containing t itanic acid, but none of them has been a success commercially. In t he meantime t he fact remains that any ore containing over a certain percentage of

titanic acid is extremely difficult to smelt. 39. Does that apply to any of these other deposits ?-The bauxite deposits would contain t itanic acid. 40. By M1· Watson.--That only occurs at Wingello ?-Yes; there are several other

places. 41. But not, I mean, in large quantities 7-No, not where it would be useful for iron

smelting. 42. There is another large deposit indicated at Queanbeyan ?-That was considered outside the range of practical iron smelting on account of its distance from coal deposits. 43. What distance would it be, assuming a suitable seam wer e found at Mittagong ?- What distance would it be .from Queanbeyan, roughly 1-Queanbeyan is 60 miles from Goulburn, and Goulburn

is 57 miles from Mittagong. 44. I s that magnetic iron at Queanbeyan suitable for smelting 1-Y es; as f1U· as Mr. J aquet's investigations show, there is only a trace of titanic acid in the Queanbeyan deposit. 45. Then a t Wingello there is this aluminous ore-3,000,000 tons. How would you describe

that 'I-That is more properly an ore of aluminium. It runs in places into an iron ore, but it will be more valuable in the future for the production of aluminium. 46. You would leave it out of the question for the present for iron prnduction ?-I think so; yes.

47. By Mr. Fuller.-We have heard a good deal from time to time with regard to t he iron deposits on the South Coast of New South Wales, -that is, from Bulli downwa,rds. Are they of any extenM-No sir, n ot as far as our investigations show. There were so me reports written in the early days of the Depart­ ment of Mines, making out that there were very large and very rich deposits ; but there is no doubt

whatever, I think now, that those referred to a series of chocolate shales which are known to occur in the coal and which I do not think are at all suitable for iron smelting. I think those reports were

made on a wrong basis altogether. There are small deposits of bog-iron ore on the ranges on the South Coast, but as far as we know there are not any of great extent. 48. H ave you made any im·estigation into t hat?-Yes. M r . J aquet visited all places where they were known to exist, and I personally have seen some of them myself.

49. So that your opinion is that, as far as the South Coast is concerned, there is no iron ore there of any great exten t, or which would be of any marketable value ?-I won't go so far as to say that, but I think there is no doubt that the deposits of iron ore down the South Coast so far as we kn ow at present are not of sufficient quantity to warrant t he starting of an iron smelting in dustry down there.

50. What class of ore is it generally ?-The only ore I have seen down there is a bog-iron ore similar to that at Mittagong. 51. By Mr. Watson. - \Vhat is the distance from Queanbeyan to Mittagong?-117 miles; and the deposit is 16 miles from Queanbeyan. Of course a railway wo uld have to be built for t hat 16

miles.

E. 1', fi ttnmn, 16th September, 1002. 4

52. You probably know, Mr. Pittman, that U.c committee is inquiring into the possibility of a successful <;ommencement of a n Australi an iron industry . I would like to know what your opinion is as to t he prospect" of its success-your opinion based on your experience ?-In answering t his question, Mr. Chn.irman, 1 should like to point out that t he smelting of ores from other States (t hat is to say, States outside 1\ ew South \Vales) in this State, would depend upon the establishment of the works on the but ii iron ores were smelted in New So uth W ales itself from N ew South Wales ores the works

11·uuld probably be started at some such place as Lit hgo w, a considerable distance away from the coast.

Our inve;,tigat.i ons, 1 think, justify my l:> tating my belief that there should be all the elements of r. suc­ cessful iron smelting industry if wo rks were started in the neighbourhood of L ithgow. 53. B y .Jfr. L. E. (.h ·uom. - vVorking the or e in that neighbourhood ?- -Yes. When I say t hat, I do not wisl: t o put forward my opinion as to wpether it could be done at a profit or not. That is beyond my ken altogether. That is a subj ect which I have not investigated.

54. The rela tive cost 7-Y es . I cannot say wh ether pig iron could be produced locally at a profi t in compet ition with foreign produced pig iron. That I do not feel justified in expressing an opinion about; but , as far as regards the production of iron, we have all the occ urrences which are necessary to insure its success, leaving ou t of t he qu es tion altogether the cost of the process. Then for t he treatment of occurring in other States, smelting works might be established anywhere on our Southern Coast. I say preferably on our Southern Coast because of the coal there. 1'hat coal is more suitable for smelting than the coal from the northern collieries . A s regards the quality of the iron I may say t hat we have analyzed in the D epartment samples from the Blythe River, Tasmania, and there is no doubt that the samples we have seen are very good . There is an analysis in t his book by Mr. Twelvetrees. I am pretty sur e we made an ano,lysis, but I do not know wh ether it is in this book. A copy of it co uld be furnish ed to the committee if they desired it.

55. By .Afr. IVatson.-Of course, in the absence of inspection by yourself or your officers, you wo uld not know as to the body of ore 7-No, I could not say. .

56. By J1h. L . K G1·oom .- On page 154 of Mr. Jaquet's book there is a report with reference t o that. lVlr. vVard, the Go vernment A nalyst in Hobart, t reats the whole thin g in bulk, and he gives the maximum and minimum contents. That is of very little use, because it depeuds altogether upon how much of the maximum there is, and how much of t he minimum. That tends to mislead; but from what they say t here is no doubt it is a very enormous deposit.

57. Have you any idea of t he quantity yourself from the reports you have received from them officially 7-Mr. Twelvetrees estimates the qua,ntity :tt 17,291 ,000 tons of marketable ore. Mr. Ward gives the iron content s as varying from 46 to 68·7 per cent., the silica CQiltents from 1·6 to 34·2 per cent., and the phosphorus contents from 0·04 to 0·09 per cent.

58. And do I understand you to say t hat you have made an analysis in your Department" too 7-I am pretty certain we made an analysis of a sample, but of course we did not take that sample. 59. A nd do you bear out what he says there about its contents 7-H e gives such wide limits to its con tents.

60. 'l'ake his minimum. From the samples you is that minimum a fair test 7-I cannot

remember exactly, but I have got t he idea in my mind that our analysis showed it t o be a very good ore. 61. W hat would be t he :percentage for what you term a good me 7-I think Mr. J aq\let gives three statements- poor, good, and rich ?-Poor ores are classified as those containing from 20 to 40 :per cent. of iron, medium ores from 40 to 50 per cent., and rich ores from 50 to 70 per cent. Of oourse, as Mr. J aquet says, that is quite an arbitrary classification of his own.

G 2. By Jlfr. JV atson.- You seem to think, Mr. Pittman, that the propositions for iron smelting works r esolve themselves into Lithgow on t he one hand and t he South Coast Qn the other ?-Yes, I t hink so. Then there are supposed to be iron ores of very good quality indeed in New a,nd those

ores might be brought to the South Coast .works. 63. By M 1·. Joseph Cook.-Could they be got over here in commercial 9,uantities 1- I have never been to N ew Caledonia, but I am t old that t here are very good deposits indeed there. 64. B y J11r-. it a 'fact that, so far as that ore is concerned" there is such a large

quantity of nickel in it that it is more va.Juable for the nickel t han for the iron 'I-I was not aware of it. I remember talking to some of the Broken Hill people some time ago when thev were wan ting pure iron ore for smelting purposes, and Mr. Gregory Boat·d had some of t his New Ca,ledbnia ore brought to him with a cert ified analysiH, and that analysis shov,red it to be practically :pure peroxide of iron with practi­ cally no silica in it at all ; and I remember at the time he stated that it was impossible and that he did not believe it. He subsequently had a,n analysis made at his works a:qd confirmed the composition of it-it was nearly pure peroxide of iron.

65. By .Air. Joseph Cook.- I s there plenty of it 7-I have never been there and cannot say, but they stated there were consid erable quantities of it . 66 . By Jfr. Watson.-Taking Lithgow generally, I understand that if you have too grent a pro­ portion of silica in the iron ore and also too great a proportion in tlw coal,. it is e:Jepensive to flux, and you tmve to ge t a lot of other fluxing material to make it up 1-Yes.

67 . H ow do the Carcoar and Oadia iron deposits nnd the Liths,ow coal show in that respect?­ They woul d be all right so far as that is concerned. 68. Y ou do not think there is too great a proportion ?-No. 'l'he only trouble with the Carcoar and Cadia dep osits is that the Carcoar delJosits arc rather high in phosphorous,, and the Cadia deposits contain sulphur and copper, that is the unoxidized Cadia deposits.

G9. Still, if there a,re 1,000,000 tons in sight oxidi:..:ed, that will :pot matter for the present ?­ No; provided that lhat oxidized ore opens up, as M r. Jaquet thinks it may do . Of cou rse, may_ be that the oxidized ore, when opened up, may be fou,nd to contain copper ancl sulphur. H e I S relywg purely on surf

70. Have you followed the cxpm·ime nts macle latterly at Lith,go,\V with view of coking theu· coal fo r copper smelting?-I h a 1·e not been there very recently, but I exaJ;D ined tl1eir coke sorp.e eighteen months ago and took samples of it.

5

1431

E. F. Pit.tman, 16th September, 1902.

71. bo 'know now 'vhether they a1·e producing a coke that is suitable for smelting under­ stand they are. 1 understand their coke will stand a good furna.ce burden. Of course, it has not as much strength as the Southern coke. .

72 . B y ilfr. Joseph Cook.-·what about the no rthern coke 7--Thel'e is prolmbly" no coke in the wo rld that has the strength of the Bulli coke. In the year 1892 I tested n,ll the northern cokes, the impol'ted coke used at Broken Hill, and t he Bulli coke. The Bulli coke stood a of :1,000 to

the square inch, whereas t he imported cokes stood a press ure of something about 750 lbs., and the northern cokes a pressure I think of 1,300 to 2,400 lbs. The northem cokes, however, contain less ash than the southern, and since my examination of them in 1892 a company at \Vallsend has been manufacturing a coke from a mixture of Wallsencl and Bulli coal. This coke has a fairly low percentage of ash, and at the same time great st rength.

73. By TVatson .- And that is the standard of value for coke, its strength ?-That is one of the standards . The secretary of the Broken Hill Proprietary Company refused to use Australian cokes in his works because, he said, they contained too much ash and would not stand the of the ore in the furn ace. This was so me years ago when there was a deputation to t he Governmen t asking them to put a duty on imported coke so a,s to get the trade into the hands of the Australian coke makers. The

representation of this deputation were submitted to M r. Knox, and he said the duty should not be put on because the Australian cokes contained too •much a,sh, and becnuse they were too friable. I was instructed to inves tigate this, and I fou nd the coke they were using from \Vales and Germany contained decidedly h1ot·e ash tha n so me of the cokes made in New South 'Wales, and, as rcgard8 its friabil ity, the

Australian cokes were four times stronger th'Ln the coke they were using. 7 4. By Jh. Joseph Coo!c.- And yon say t he sou thern coke stands first '1- 'l'hat is for strength. Of course it has more n,sh. 75. By M1·. Ji'uller.-When you. speak of the Bulli coke I suppooe it applies genemlly to all those southern cokes 7-Yes. All the sou them cokes ar·e very strong indeed.

7 6. By Ah. Joseph Cook.-vVould that make them more suitable for blast fu rnace work 1-Y es. 77. By kh-. Yon say thnt in the event of the e!'ltablishment of works to treat the ores

from different States you 1 oul d choose the South Coast for preference as the site of those w01·ks; but in the event of the establishment of an iron industry fo r the purpose of working t he New South \Vales ores, only the 'vo rks should be at Lithgow. I would like to ask you wh ether the ores in th:tt district would of themselves produce a marketable iron 1-- Yes. There are som e very good ores round

there. The only objection is t hat they are not in such big quantities as t hose two localities I have specially mentioned, Cadia and Carcoar. 7 8. I include Caditt and CarcmH'. I am speaking of the W estern group 7-Yes. I should answer decidedly in the affi rmative.

79. By Mr. J oseph Cook.- What do you include in the South Coast ?-The llla warra district, where the coal is obtainable. 80. By .Afr. L. E. G1·oom.-It would not include l\Iittagong 1-No. 81. By Jlfr. J oseph Cook.- \Vould it include Parramatta River, where, as you it wa s

proposed to establish iron works1-Y es . That could be fairly included, because we shall be getting the South Coast coal here in Sydney. As already stated, however, there at the present time a coke being made from a mixture of \Vallsend and Bulli coals. This coke which is made at Wallscncl, near New­ castle, is of great strength, and a fairly low ash percentage-lower in fact than t he a\-era.ge Bulli coke. I should like, therefore, to qualify my pre,-ious evidence by including Newcastle in the coastal

dishicts which, in my opinion, are suitable for iron smelting. 82. By M1 ·. Fuller.--When you speak of the value of the Soutl:Jem coal for smelting purposes, have you made any test of the coal for that pa rticu lar purpose so uth of .Mount K embb, from there down to :Macquarie Y es. Some two or three years ago, when the Port K embla H tt rbor was being

considered by the Public ·w orks Committee, they requested Professor David and myself to sample all the coals t hat were shown in any working places south of Mount K embla, and we did so and t hem all analyted; and according t o our investigations the coal was not nearly so good to the south of Mount K embla. The ash was vei·y much higher.

83. Have you seen tbe report of that expert who was sent out from England on behalf of the Illawarra Harbor and Land Corporation-his report on that coctl for smelting purposes ?-I have not. I do not remember seeing that report. 84. By .Jb·. L. E. Groom.- Have you considered the iron deposits in other Sta,tes besides New

South ·w ales in any way officially ·

85. ' You have no knowledge of the deposits in Queensland 7-:No. 86. Or South Austl'alia 7-No. I have heard of course of the deposits at Iron Nob in Sout li Australia, and I have been told that they are enormous in quantity and high in fluality. .. 87 . It is of a good commercial quality I am told. I haYe never checked the analysis

at all.

88. What distance is the Iron Nob from water carriage ?-I un derstand about 30 miles; I do not know. 89. I s it connected by rail ?-Yes. 90. Could that ore be made usc of, supposing that a factory started on the coast here?-Yes.

91. So that the ore might be taken from New Caledonia, So ut h Australia, and Tasmania in the event of having coastal works 1-Yes. 92. H ave you· any idea of the quantity that is available in South Australia ?-No, I have not heard an estimate of it; but the manager of the Broken Hill Proprietary told me it was in enormous

quantities. · 93. By llir. Watlcins.-The west and south are the only two possible fi elfL in Xew South \Vales1 -The two most pract.icable, undoubtedly, that is to :-sa.1 or Bulli, Sydn ey or 94. Did you ever make any investigation into Port Stephen's deposits 7-Yes. Th e trouble

with them is the quantity 0f titaflic acid, which amounts roundly to between 8 per cent. and 10 per cent.

E. F. Pittman, 16th September, 1902. 6

95. By M1·. L. E. Groom.-Have you considered the cost of the production of iron in other countries and compared it with the probable cost of producing in Australia 1-Mr. J aquet has mentioned one or two instances in the book. I cannot say that I have gone into the figures to any extent myself. I should like to point out to t he committee that those estimates of Mr. J aquet's refer in t.he one case to

t he production of the best Bessemer steel, that is the Middles borough, and the other which he mentions at Lithgow would be the production of an inferior pig; that is to say, a pig not suitable for the production of Bessemer steel, so that the two are not on exactly the same lines. 96. By Mr. Watson.-Can you get us some particulars as to the tenure of the land upon which the deposits in New South W ales occur 'I-I will do so.

John Blockley Jaquet, A.R.S.M., F.G.S., geological surveyor, Geological Survey Branch, D epartment of Mines, New South Wales, examined. 97. By Mr. Joseph Cook.-I believe you made a report some time ago on the iron ores of New South ·wales is so.

98. About when 1-In 1901. 99. I suppose at that time your investigation was as reasonably complete as you could make it?­ That is so. 100. Has anything occurred since-I am speaking now more particularly with regard to the deposits-to increase or decrease the quantity of ore available for smelting purposes; that is to say, have any fresh discoveries been made 1-I do not know of any of importance. They have not been

brought under my notice. l 0 1. I notice in your r eport that you say the northern deposit, the \Villiams and Karuah River deposits, are uncommercial ?-I believe that is so. 102. And that, even if that were not so, t here is not a sufficient quantity there to justify the establishment of any large wor·ks ?-Well, in the aggregate they contain a considerable quantity of iron ;

bnt the beds are scattered all over the place, and are very narrow. 103. The estimate is nearly 2,000,000 tons 1-l t hink that embraces about 26 different deposits; and you see the ore there occurs in narrow beds, which dip into the ground in many instances at a steep angle, so that it would be, relatively speaking, very expensive work to mine t hem-that is to say, expensive for ii·on ore. Of course, if they were gold deposits it might pay to work them.

104. How steep is the dip 7-In some instances as steep as 80 degrees; mostly, I suppose, it is about 20 degrees, and in some instances as high as 85 degrees. I think I cited one instance of a bed as high as 85 degrees. 105. By M1·. Watkins.-What width are they?-The beds vary from 2 inches or 3 inches up to 3 feet in the widest part, but they are seldom 3 feet; moreover they are not permanent. They are pocketty. They will pinch out after being followed a little distance, and, perhaps, make again on the same horizon a little bit further on. The beds are not of a very permanent character.

106. By Jb·. Joseph Cook-But the fact of their being laid at an angle would not make them expensive to work?-You would have to mine for them; you could not quarry the ore. You would have to work it in the same way as you would work a gold reef. If it is only from 6 to 8 inches wide, a gold reef needs to be rich to be payable.

107. But where the seams are only 6 or 8 inches wide, are there not other seams close by '1-No. In a few instances there are parallel seams, but not close enough to work together. 108. And that fact alone would put them out of the category of commercial workings there are the so uthern deposits-included in the Southern district you put Queanbeyan, Goulburn, and l\'Iittagong 1-Might I just make a remark about the character of the Williams River iron. For ordinary purposes iron produced from these titaniferous ores would be valueless . In. the first place, it is difficult to run a furnace with a lo t of t itanic acid. An obstruction forms in the furnace. And the iron

produced is only useful for certain purposes. l 09. Does the titanic acid prevent the iron from separating easily ?-No, but there is a substance, supposed to be cyano-nitride of titanium, which forms in the furnace and renders it difficult to keep the furnace running.

llO. By _Mr. even if you did get it through the furnace the iron would not be of

good commercial quality ?-No. Ill. What is the deficiency ?-I deal with it somewhere in this book (b-on Ore D eposits o.f New South Wales), and give the opinion of an expert who has actually experimented with the smelting of titaniferous ores. Many years ago, a company, the Norwegian Titanic Iron Company, was formed for the purpose of smelting, without. mixture with other ores, ilmenite obtained from Norway. Ilmenite is the mineralogical term for titaniferous iron. It has the same meaning as titaniferous iron. Mr. W. M. Bowron. who was employed as chemist by the company, says, concerning their operation, as follows :­

"The process, regarded as a process, wa s a perfect success; but the enormous quant.ity of fuel requhed, the small quantity of iron in the ore, and the cost and uncertainty of importation, militated seriously against its comm ercial success, and a few years saw the attempt abandoned." After describing the process in detail, Mr. Bowron says:-" If then, the use of titaniferous ores involves extra fuel, low heats, and slow driving, and makes white iron, what is the inducement to use them? I can only answer that for ordinary use they are wholly unsuitable ; but for making a forge iron that has brought double the market price of common iron, for use as a mixture to impart the property of cold toughness to other iron, or for making an iron to be mixed with other irons that are· not quite up to requirements for boiler plates, for blooms, or for an extra good iron generally, these ores are most valuable." Pig iron manufac­ tured from titaniferous ores hat; certain uses, but there would be no use manufacturing a large quantity of titaniferous pig, unless you had other large iron works which produced large quantities of normal pig iron.

112. By Afr. Jo seph Co ok.-lt might pay to extr·act these ores and convey them to where other iron was being made, for particular uses ?-Well, I do not think there has been any large qu:mtity made anywher·e. I know for a fact that in the United States they are not working the titartif'l•:ous iron deposits, and the same applies to Sweden and Norway. ,L" ,

11 3. Then you would put that out of 7-Y es.

J. B. J aq uet, 16th Septembe r, 1902.

11 4. By Mr . Watkins.-Do t hose remar ks govern t he whole of the P ort Stephens district 7-The only iron ores in t he Port Stephens district wit h which I am are the beds of tita.niferous ore

under disc ussion. '

11 5. On t he ri ve r 7- They are on t h e left-lmnd side of the North Coast-road, between Raymond Terrace n,nd Stroud , and between there a nd th e vVi lliams River, in the water-sheds of t h e Karuah and W illiams Rivers. 11 6. By 1l!?-. Fulle1 ·. - Do I under stand you to say that you put th ose out of the question 7-Yes; b ut I have to be careful what I say. That is why I quote t he particulars giYe!1 . For

cer tam they may be used, but for general p urposes I do not think they wou ld be of much use.

I n to come, when we have an iron industry cstabli::.l1ed here, it might be useful to have this ore for cer t..1.m purposes. . 117. In regard t o all t hese dep<:Jsits, have you made the same careful tests as to the quant.ity in srgh t that you have made wi th regard to lYiittagong ?-I caniwt eYery one. I wo ul d have to speak for t hem one at a ti me. If you are referring to t hose Port Stephens deposits, I made a very careful test.

1 had t renches sunk across them, and J bad shafts put dow n in places; and you will see in t his book a map that I. prepared showing their positions. I tel:\ ted them very carefully, and I feel very positive that t here is no mo re ore t here than is stated in t his repm·t, viz., 1, 97 3, 000 tons. 11 . By J1tf1- . Jo seph Cook.-Do you incl ude Queanbcyan, Goulburn, l\iittagong, and vVingell o as in the Southern dist rict 7-W hen I made that list out for you I did it with a view of grouping them

under t heir different coal-fields. If th se orcs are to be smelted, they should be in the southern

coal-fields ; if t he l\'Iittagong coal should prove suitable, t hey shoul d be smelted there; b ut failing t his they would have to go to t he South Coast ( lllawarra) district. 119. At Queanbeyan t here are 1,000,000 tons. h thn,t deposit of any present commercial valu \0) ?-The ore is very good, but it is far away from coal.

120. That is what my question includes . I s it of any commercial Ya.l ue at present? I btke it that it would have to be taken to the Sout h Coast to .smelt in the absenee of the development of the Mittagong coal mines 7-It is rather a big question for me to say absolutely that it is not of any commercial val ue. I should no t like to say t hat.

121. H ow far is it off t he coal 7-I suppose i t is about 20 miles f rom Queanbeyan. 122. By Mr. Watson.- That makes it 137 mil es from Mittagong7-Y es . Well, t hat does not prer.l ude it from being of value. I can best answer t he question by telling you what t hey are doing in the States. At the present time t he L ake Superior ore is being brought in the train, after being mined, from 100 to 200 miles to the lakes, and then it is shipped long distances down the lakes. It is again put into t he train and carried something like 90 miles to the smelting works. Altogether,

on the average, it travels a distance of about 800 miles from the mines t o the smelters. For merly only t hose ores were worked for iron that were adj acent to flux and coal, but now t hat has all been

revolu tionized, and t he greater portion of t he world's iron supply is produced from deposits which are situated many hundreds of miles away from t he coal. A nother instance is t he Spanish ore, from Bilbao. It is mined in Spain, transpo rted t o t he port--I do not know what dif>tance t hat woul d be, but I think the mines are mos tly close to the port-then it is carried in stearn -shi ps t o Yorkshire and

Scotland, a distance, I suppose, of about 1,000 miles. 123 . By leb· . J o;;eph Cook.-Of course the quality of t he iron would determine whether it was worth while to carry it so f

Pennsylvania; t he ores f r-om Biscaya, in Spain, 1, 000 miles to Middlesbrough, Glasgow, &c.; and the Swedish ores, from 1,000 to 1,500 mil es to t he furnaces in Germany and England. ] 25 . By Mr. Joseph Cook. - The deposit in Que anbeyan, you say, is a, good one '-- Yes, as far as my examination went, certainly.

126 . Woul d you call that a good one according to the table that you have laid down?--Yes. I wou ld like t o look up the analysis before I answer definitely. It is situated l miles west from Quean­ beyan. It is a large deposit of magnetic ore, the outcrop of which is :20 chains long and 5 chains wid e. That is about a quarter of a mile. The ore consists essentiall y of magnetite with v::trying amounts of h or nblende, and the greater portion of it is of excellent quality. vVell, in one place t here is a sm all

admixture of copper pyrites, b u t I did not observe the copper ttll through t.he deposit, nor do I think the great mass of t he ore has been deteriorated in any way by copper. I estimate t hat there n:re at least 1,000,000 tons of excellent magnetic ore in sigh t. T he sample I took at Queanbeyan contamed 64 per cent. of metallic iron. I am not prepared to state that the whole bulk of the ore will prove to be as good-the place had not been opened up-but still I am sure that the deposit as regards quaJity of ore is a vall,lable one. I am sure it is over 50 per cen t .

127. By ilfr-. L . E . G1·oorn.- Y ou woul d call that a rich ore 7- Then, you see, the phos­

phorus is particularly low, and that mak es t he ore valuable. 'l'hat is a very impor tant point. 128. By A-£1-. TVatson .-And the t itanic acid is low ?-It has practical ly no t itanic :wid. There is only a trace. J believe the ore is val uable, but I did n?t spend same time the deposit,

because it was so far away, and there appeared to be no rmmecltate h keiihoocl of rts bemg wo rked. 129. By Jl.b·. Jo seph Cook.--In view nf what you have just now told us as to tho g reat distances from which ore is transported in other countries do you not think there is a possibility of omebody working it and bringing it to the coast?-Yes, if a mil way should be built; but other deposits are more

conveniently situated. 130. By Jlfr. What other deposits are more conveniently situated 7-Carcoar and Caclia and the southern ores. 131. By ]1.[1 ·. Coolc.-Then you say there is a good deposit n,t Goulburo, 1,022,000 tons.

Is t hat all together-1-No. The figures quoted the aggregate amount of ore oontained in five or different deposits.

J. B. J aquet, 16th September, 1902, 8

13 2. Are they in the immediate vicinity of Goulburn 1-Yes. 133. How far from the railway 3 to 10 miles from the railway, but one of the largest

of them is within a mile of the railway. 134. And what is their qualit.y 1----They are brown iron ores. · I suppose they contain from 40 to 56 per cent. of metallic iron. 135. Is there any deleterious matter in them 1-Yes, from 6 to 25 per cent. of silica, and from ·19 to ·31 of phosphorus. That makes them very high in phosphorus. They are not suitable for steel­ making by the acid process. On the whole, in a general way, I should not class them as very good ores, having regard to tbe impurities in the ore and everything connected with it.

136. W hat is the quali ty of the Mittagong deposits, 1, 510,000 vary very much.

Some of the Spring deposits yield an excellent ore, and others an ore very high in phosphorus- an ore tltat would be suitable for the Basic process of steel manufacture; but I think there is very little chance of those deposits being worked, because the estimated quantity is divided among many deposits. 137. I see there are 3,000,000 tons at Yes; but that is an aluminous ore. They could

not very well smelt it by itself, but it might be a valuable ore to have to mix in wit h other ores when they are being smelted. It is very similar to t he Irish ores shipped from Ireland to E ngland and smelted with t he rich English h re matites. 138. Supposing the whole matter were put as a proposition for iron works in t he Southern district, taking the whole of the Southern district by itself, how would ·it appear t o W ell, there are really only two deposits of the first class there. There is the Queanbeyan deposit, which, for the reason I have stated-being so far off the rail way-is not likely to be worked; and there is another deposit, not included in the Gou lburn district, but not very far away-Breadalbane. That is a very fair deposit, but it yields an ore not suitable for steel-making by the cheaper acid processes, but steel could be manufac­ tured from it by the Basic process.

139. That throws you back to Queanbeyan and Goulburn as the two places on ly where good iron ore is Yes; but the Goulburn ore is not very good. The Breadalbane ore, on the whole, is

better than the Goulburn ore. 140. Those two deposits alone-Queanbeyan and Goulburn-only total two and a half million tons. Would you regard that as sufficient to justify putting down a modern plant for iron­

making purposes 'I--I should not like to say t hat. The largest American furnaces now run about 4,000 tons of pig iron a week, and that is a very big furnace. 141. That would be at least 8,000 tons of ore 1-Y es. You must take the supply wanted for Australia. I do not think we are at all likely to start with a furnace as big as t he Americans a re

using. · 14 2. By Mr. L. E. Groom.-That would not necessarily involve the size 1-There are plenty of places elsewhere in the world-in England, for instance-where they are smelting with furnaces which are nothing like as big. The Americans have lately gone in for very big furnaces.

143. By .Mr. Jo seph Cook.-You say this Goulburn deposit is not very good. So, t h.m, out of this quantity included in t he whole of t he Southern fields there are really only a million tons of good iron ore 1-I do not know how I am going to classify those ores for you exactly. It depends on the purpose for which you use them. The Go ulburn ore is not so good as the Carcoar ore, but it is very difficult to speak about these ores relatively.

144. You might keep in your mind the suitability of the ores for the manufacture of steel rails. 145. By M1· . Fuller. - Or speak of them as compared with ores which a re worked in other parts of the world 1-'l'hey are working oreR far worse in England. A large proportion of the local ore mined in England at t he present day-the Cleveland ore-is a very inferior ore, and an ore that yields a pig of very low price. 146. And much inferior to these ores 1-Now y.ou raise another question. The Cleveland ore is a self-fluxing ore. It has lime and alumina in it. The Cleveland ore can be mined and smelted cheaply, but the pig iron produced from it is impure and inferior. 147. By .Mr. Joseph Cook.-I will come back to that question after we have dealt with the Western ores. Will you give me a statement of the quantity of ore available in the Southern district and in the Western district 7-

148. By Mr. L. E. Groom.-Reading this report, I came to the conclusion that t he Northern deposits are not worth considering ?-That is so. There is no hope of obtaining any large supply in t he Port Stephens district . In the Southern district the total quantity of ore I estimated at about 6,000,000 tons at scattered places, but much of this ore, if you want me to generalize, is of an inferior character, and not suitable for smelting by itself. Included in the estimate are 3,000,000 tons of aluminous ore.

149. By j!fr. Fnller.-And what area is that Bcattered over7-Some of the deposits are over 50 miles away from one another-you see there are t he Spring deposits, at Mittagong and Picton, and upon the South Coast Spring. _

150. I want to get at t he distance between Queanbe:ran and the other deposits 1-From t he out­ side limit at Queanbeyan to the outside limit at Picton in a straight line is 120 miles as near as can be. 151. And how far does the district extend from east to west?-About 30 or 40 miles. 152. By Mr. Watkins.-Do you find any limestone in those is plenty at

Marulan. 153. Did you find any up not·th extensive deposit of good limestone within a reasonable distance of N ewcastle. 154. By jJfr. Fuller. - Would one branch line of railway to each of these places in the Southern district serve the deposits

155. By jJ£1-. Watkins. - But would not each company naturally have t hei r own lines laid '1---Yes, but t.h at is the trouble For instance, at Gou lburn you wo uld build a line out to one deposit with only 3,000 or 4,000 tons ; the mi nes wonld have short lives, since the great majority of the deposits, relatively speaking, contain only small quantities of ore.

156. By M1·. Fuller.-Do you know Joadja Creek ?-Yes.

9 J. B. J aquet, 16th September, 1902.

1435

157. Would it be more difficult to construct a line to Queanbeyan than it was to J oadja I am not a railway engineer, but I think it would be very difficult to get the line from Queanbeyan to the ore deposits at Paddy's River. It is very rough country fo r- a portion of the route. 158. By Jh-. Joseph Cook.-Now, about the western deposits. I understand t hat this Cadia deposit is a discovery of recent date '1-\ Vel ], I scarcely think that. 'l'hey did not know its value as an iron deposit.

159 . When you set out to make that inquiry did you know of this deposit at Cadia I did not. 160. That has been discovered t hen recently we may sn,y think this is the first time in this work that it has been referred to as an iron deposit . Of course the peo ple living in the district knew it was there, but they did not appear to know that it was valuable as an iron deposit.

161. By Jll1· . L. E. G1·oorn .- This was the first survey of it?-Yes, I believe so . 162. By Jlh. JusP.ph Cook.-Your estimate is 3,000,000 a minute. I estimate the

Cadia d epo to contain 39,000,000 tons. Stutchbury, I think, a former Government Geologist, briefly refers to it. I would like to correct my statement. R.eferring to one of the Cadia deposit.·, not the larger one, but the small er one, he first mention s it in 1851. He says-" There is an immense mass of oxydulous iron forming in one solid mass a precipitous waterfall of about 60 feet in height."

163. But nothing was known as to its value until you made that survey the best of my

knowledge, I think so. 164. 'l'hen, as to Cat·coar, you say there is a gl'eat deal of phosphorus in that ore?-There is not a great dettl, but there is an amount in excess of the Bes emer· limit . 165. Anything to interfere with its commercial value?-Y es . There is enough thel'e to damage it from a steel making point of view, though not to prohibit its use for gteel manufacture. ·

l 6G . But there is nothing in the Cadia deposit which would interfere with the making of good steel ?-Yes, thel'e is coppel' and sulphur. 167. But cou1d be treated, could they not ?-1 t is possible t hat they might get over the difficulty. It is a very complex ore, and I do not think any one could well give an opinion on that point

without making a lot of experiments. 168. You do not regard the Cadia ore t hen as too good an ore for steel making purposes ?-There is a lot of oxidized ore t hat is good. I estimate about 1,000,000 tons. 169 . Which, in your judgment, would be excellent material for making Yes.

170. And therefore would justify the undertaking which is proposed ?-I t hink so. Might I digress for a moment just to exphin about the iron and steel making. I think I could simplify mn,tter.; perhaps. If you get a very small quantity of phosphorus more or less it will make a very great difference to the value of the pig iron from a steel making point of view. If you get tt pig iron containing more than ·06 of phosphorus, it is generall y supposed to be unfit for making steel by the cheapest process of

steel manufacture-that is, the acid Bessemer process, ot· the acid open hearth process. Again, a pig iron which contains between ·06 and we will say 1·5 or 2 per cent. of phosphorus, and that, until quite recently, was one not well adapted for steel making. W hen you get over the 1·5 per cent. you get a pig iron that is suitable for the basic process, which is a much more expensive process·.

171. I s t here much steel being made by that process?-Yes ; in Germany a great deal of steel is being made by t he basic process. They are bound to do it because they have not got the non-phosphoric ore. 17 2. By Mr. Watson .-lt is not worthless, but it is a disadvantage ?-Yes. It is just a dis· advantage. Now we come to the Carcoar ore. That ore contains an amount of phosphorus in excess of the acid Bessemer limit-only just a little in excess.

173. By Jlfr. Joseph Cook-Have you any idea what the difference in cost is as between the two processes in the making of a ton of steel 'I-I could not give you any estimate. It would depend on so many circumstances-on the exact percentage of and so many different things. I can only

say it is more expensive. Carcoar is just a little bit over the percentage for the acid Bessemer process, but it does not contain enough for the basic process. The problem we have to consider is what could t hey do with the pig iron for steel manufacture. Recently there has been a new process introduced by Mr. Talbot, in America, by which it would be possible to produce steel hom these intermediate ores, so we have good reason to believe now t hat these intermediate ores are more valuable to-day than they

were two or three years ago. 17 4. Are they suitable for making steel ?-Yes. . .

175. Has Mr. Talbot in America demonstrated his process?-Yes. I have g1ven an account of 1t. 176. By .• '111-. Fttllm·.-How does the Talbot system compare with others in price ?-I have no estimates. There is a lon« account in the Iron and S teel Jou1·nal, and it is criticised by

manufacturers, iron -master;, and metallul'gists. From these criticisms, it would seem as if it was a so und process. Even supposing you did not use that process, there is another way of getting over the difficulty . Let me tell you the difference between the acid process and the basic process. ·when use the acid process you have no lining, or only an acid lining, to the converter; when use the baste

process you line the converter with lime, and that lime absorbs the phosphorus.from the tron . way of producing steel from t he Carcoar pig iron would be to turn the phosph1des produced back mto the converter, and so bring the pig iron up to the basic Bessemer standard as regards phosphorus. It all comes down to t his, that the Carcoar ore is not the best for steel manufacture, but yet you could

make steel-and good steel-out of it. 177. By Jh. Joseph Cook-By 1-Y that is one way of getting over diffi?ulty.

178. By Mr . Watson.- Then Cadta ?-There ts a large quanttty of ore there that ts smtable for the acid processes, which are t he cheapest processes. .

179. By Jl{r·. L. E. Gr·oom.-Are you speaking of whole depostt ?-:-No, only small er

portion-the oxidized ore. I never had the same opportumttes at Cadm of provmg the depos1t that I had at Carcoar. I SO. By Mr·. Joseph Cook-Supposing Carcoar and Caclia ores wore mixed, would t.hat bring the percentage of phosphorus below the maximum for the acid Bessemer process 1-I think it might be

possible to get such a mixture from the two.

J. B. Jaquet, 16th September, 1902. 10

181. Taking the fie ld altogether-the Cadia and Carcoar districts-would you regard it as a good one ?-I think there is a good prospect of successfully working the Carcoar and Cadia deposits; but, mind you, I do not think t hey a re t he best deposits in the world. They are not the very finest, but there should be a good prospect of working them profitably.

182. A good commercial prospect?-Yes. 183. You have included Mudgee in t his return. What do you mean? Do you mean the

Mudgee railway line or Mudgee town ?-There is only one deposit of importance near Muclgee, and t hat is at a place called Cooyal, about 14 miles out. I think it only contains about 200,000 tons of ore. It is an ore with manganese in it-nn ore that an iron smelter would like for certain purposes. 184. You might give us t he metallic contents of the ore at Cadia and Carcoad-- You must understand how I am situftted in trying to compare t hese things. I can tell you the percentage of iron and phosphorus, and so on, but there are so many things to take into consideration. The analysis made at the laboratory of the Department of Mines of Carcoar ore showed it to contain in round numbers from 52 to 63 per cent. of metallic iron. Well, I estimate that t-he ore contains on an average at least 53 per cent. of iron, not more t han l 0 per cent. of silica, and about ·09 per cent. of phosphorus. In arriving at this estimate, I had regard particularl y to the bulk samples taken in the cross-cut across the bed at a depth of 100 feet.

185. By .Jib-. Watson.-And now Cadia ?-The Cadia contains from 52 to 64 per cent . of metallic iron. The silica varies from 4 to 14 per cent. The Cn,dia is an ore low in phosphorus, and t hat is stwngly in its favour. One sample was very high in phosphorus, but I think we will discard that. In the oxidized ore the phosphorus varied from ·0 17 to ·0 51. The oxidized ore also contains appreciable quantit ies of copper and sulphur.

186. '!.'here is nothing in your judgment to make it difficult to treat the ore ?-The unoxidized ore might be diffic ul t to treat. I do not know that the presence of sulphur and copper would stop it being used, but it would be an objection. The oxidized ore would be free from difficulty as regards treatment.

187. Then there are 1, 000,000 tons in sight with which there would be no difficu lty ?-A million tons of oxidized ore, which i1> probably free from the deleterious ingredients, copper and sulphur, and which contains an amount of phosphorus within the acid Bessemer steel manufacturing limit. There would seem to be 1,000,000 tons of very valuable ore there.

188. Are there any deposits between l\1udgee and Rylstone 7-0ut at Cudgegong, back from the line, and between Rylstone and Cudgegong. -

189. Taking the Rylstone district in alliance with Wallerawang and Piper's Flat, what would you regard as the total deposit ?-643,000 tons. 190. There would be nothing by itself there then to warrant the establishment of iron works upon any competitive scale 7

191. By Mr. L . E. Groom.-That is, on that line and dealing with those places alone ?-No. It is not very much, certainly. I should think it would be scarcely great enough to warrant the establish­ ment of works. 192. By Jir. Joseph Cook.- You are aware that there have been propositions for tha t district alone 7--Yes ; but still there are plenty of places where they are working small furnaces on small supplies of ore. I should not like to say definitely that a man would not keep a furnace working on 600,000 tons.

193. That could be worked in conjunction with Cadia and Carcoar?- Yes . 194. You say there are only 200,000 tons at Wallerawang and Piper's F lat. W hat is the quality of the ore in that district ?-Speaking of that district, I say that as the ore bodies are irregular in Rhape, for t he most part hidden under alluvium or rubble, and liable to give place at all points to country, I am unable to give any reliable estim:tte as to their extent or t he quantity of ore contained in them. However, I am of opinion that they do not contain in the aggreg

195. Mr. Pittman told us there were 200,000 tons at Wallerawang and Piper's Flat, and you say 600,000 tons 7-But you see here I sta.te that the deposits do not contain in the aggregate more than 600,000 tons, and t hey probably contain considerably le1s. vVhen I summarized it, with the best of the information at my disposal, I split it up and put down 200,000 tons.

196. A fter testing the whole matter thoroughly, you were not greatly struck with t he district ·?-No. ·

(Taken at Sydney. )

WEDNESDAY, 17TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Fuller, Mr. L. E. Groom,

}.1 embers present :

I

Mr. ·watkins, Mr. Watson.

Mr. vV.atson was called to the chair, pro tem.

John Blocldey Jaquet, A .R.S.l\1., F .G.S., further examined. 197. By jJ£1· . L. E . Gro(lm.-This report, which you compiled, and which was published in 1901, I think you said yesterday you did not wish to modify. Do you still hold to t he conclusions that you arrived at in the summary?-Yes. I have no essential modifications to make.

198. You have no substantial modifications to make in that report 7-N o.

11 J. B. J aquet , 17th September, 1902.

1437

199. In the summary you practically divide t he iron deposits in New South ·wales into three Nort hern or P ort Stephens district, t he W estern, and the Sout hern district 7- Yes

I think they could be classifi ed like that. The ores would have t o go t o one of t he coal-fields. '

200. Y ou mentioned yesterday that you classifi ed t hem on t ha t basis rebtively to the coal-fields ? I did tha t yesterday for Mr. Cook on a sepa ra te piece of paper. 20 1. Co ul d you classify them- the iron deposits of N ew Sou th W ales-on the basis of the coal­ fields which would be utilized fo r t he purpose of manufacturing t he iron co uld do that. I do not know o very mu ch_ the coal. That is another qu est ion altogether. They might br:in g t he ores from the V.7 es t ern < h stn ct or from so mew here else, and smelt them on the sou th coast .

202 . Y ou do not think the deposits in the Northern dist rict a t Port Stephens are of any

commercial value at present ?-No ; I feel very positive on t hat point. 203. Y ou es timate the minimum quantity of ore in tons in N ew South \Vales at 59, 317,000 tons 1-Y es. 204. I s that really t he minimum limit yo u can safely m

20 5. As a mattM of fact, the deposits may be much larger, b ut you think t hat is the safest minimum for you t o adopt ?-Y es. Take, for instance, the es tima te in t he Carcoar deposit ; I feel absolutely cer tain there are 3,000,000 tons in sight, 1 u t I t hi nk it is extremely probable there are a lot more, perhaps 10, 000,000 or 15,000, 000, but I am perfectly certain there ate 3,00 0,000 there.

206 . Is tha t t he minimum that you regard as absolut ely safe for t he purpose of safe calculat ions - Y es.

20 7. How much of that 59,3 17 ,000 tons would be in the N orthern district ?-Onl y the 1,9 73, 000 tons mentioned under the district William s and K aruah rivers. 20 8. The W estern district, Cadia and Carcoar, would you include Rylstone in that ?-The W est em district would include Cadia, Ca rcoar, Cowra, Brou la, Gul gong, Mandurama, Woodst ock, 1\'Iud gee,

ewbridge, Blayney, Orange, Ryl tone, Cudgegong, Wa.l lerawang, and Piper's F lat. 209 . Now, co uld all t h ose deposit s which you have en umerated as in t he W est ern district be sent to the Lithgow ironworks. Are they all within reasonable dista nce, and could they all be manufactured into pi g at t he Lithgo w ironworks ?- Y es . Some are a lit tle far off, but I think it is

correct to say that t hey a re wit hin reasonable distance. 210. You state in your report that the Cadia mines are about 12 miles from t he "Western line, and that could be connect ed by rail ?- Y es. It is about 10 or 12 miles from the Cadia mines to the west ern railway.

211. you think t hat all the ore that is enumerated in those districts is really of commercial value?-Y es, I think t hat is co rrect. A very large quant ity of t he Cadia ore con tains copper and sulphur, but I do not know t hat that is by any means prohibitive of it being profita bly sm elted. 212. Notwithstanding the sulphur in t-he Cadia ore, you think it co uld be worked, and you men­

t ion in your repor t that the sulphur could in a great measure be elimina t ed by roast ing, and it mi ght perhaps be po s1ble t o leach and profitably extract the co pper from the roaA t ed ore. You mention that the ore from the famous Cornwall mines in P ennsylvania contains bo t h sulphur and copper, yet enormous quantities have been raised a nd smelted and the output still continues 7-Y es: It has not been settled

yet whether you co uld roast t he Cad ia ore and thereby free it from sulphur. I think it is Yery probabl e that it could be roast ed, b ut that is a point t hat has to be fou nd out. 213. B ut judging from the experience in Pennsylvania, yo u think it is probable t hat t he Cadia ore containing su lphur and copper migh t be developed ?-Y es. You will notice t hat I point out that the

Cornwall ore, P ennsylvania, appears to be generally smelted in con junction with other ores. I have no means of findin g out how much is smelted by itself and how much wit h other ores. 214. There is nothing to prevent it being smelted by itself ?- I think not , but still I cannot speak definitely on that point as to how far the sul ph ur and copper will detract from t he value of the ore.

215. Now, would you mind enumerating the places you include in the Southern district7-Breadalbane, W ingello, Queanbeyan, Goulb urn, and t he Chalybeat e Spring deposits. The Chalybeate Spring deposits are sit uat ed at various places along the main Southern line and also in the Jllawarra district.

2 16. · Can you t ell us how much of t he estimated quantity you give there is of commercial value 1 -I think it is all of commercial value. Some of it is fit for one process of st eel manufacture and som e for the ot her. The Sou thern deposits include a large quant ity of aluminouR ore, and this is su itable fo r flu xing in with other ores, but not suitable for smelt ing by itself. I can on ly my I thir;k it is d com­mercial value, but how much of it will be used I cannot say. 217 . Could you give t he tonnage of that?-Yes. The ore in the So uthern district ar e estimated to yield 6,5 00,000 tons. . 218. What do you think is the quantity of pig-iron required for the manufactures of A ustraha 1 - I have only taken l\'Ir. Coghlan's fig ures. He states t hat he estimate3 the vn,lue of all descri pt-ions of iron and manufactured iron imported into t he variou s colonies of AustralaRia as under:-Colony. Imports for AYeragc Y earl y 1m ports, l 94-1898. - -----·---- ·-·------1 -- --------------N ew Sout h ' Va les V ictoria ... Queen sland South Australi a ... ' Vestern A ustralia 'l'asma ni a N ew Zeala nd £ 2,358,263 l ,382,411 994,791 688,160 1,155,962 337,93+ l ' / 63,8/0 £ 1,824,490 1,097,16-! /93,89/ 512,7-!7 8D1,364 187,067 1,229,1/2 -------- --------- - £8, 681,451 £6,535,901

J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1902. 12

He further states that he es timates the quantity of pig-iron required to produce the I'natetial represented by these ''alues is appmxima tely 130,000 tons, and 470,000 tons pet annum for New South vVales and t he whole of Austmlasia r espectively. 219. By 317-. Joseph Uook. - 'l'h at is assuming that we made in Austealia everything that we used in the shape of iron ?.- Yes. 1' hat is a::cording to Mr. Coghlan.

220. By kh. L. E. G'room .- Do you think then there is sufficient ore in sight in N e\v South vVales to produce all t he iron r equired by the colonies of Australasia ?-Certainly I do. 221. F or many years ?-Yes. Certainly for the next 60 years. 222. That is in N ew South Wales alone?-Yes.

223. A ss uming, of course, that the consumption is not going to increase ?-I think you may say that the 60 yea rs would include any reasonable increase· in the consumption. 224. By jl:fr. J oseph Cook.-What is your opinion of those estimates 1 Do you think they are anything like accurate ?-Of course, I have not gone into the subject at all. I ha \'e no means of doing so.

225 . JJy lifr. L. E. G'room.-Do you know anything about the deposits of ore in the other States-anything that you have obtained from official sources ?.-Yes. 226. By Joseph Cook. - One moment, before you go away from these fig ures. I see you quote Mr. Coghlan as saying that 130,000 tons of pig iron would be required t0 produce the material used in

New South vVales?-Yes. Are you awa re that in Canada the consumption of pig iron las t year, with 2,000,000

more population than in the whole of the Commonwealth, was only 170,000 tons ?-I was not aware of that. I have no means of ascertaining how much of the iron goods used are manufactured in the colony and how much are imported. I was not aware of that. I have not looked into that quest.ion at all. It i!-! outside of my province to go into that, and I just gave those figures prepared by the GovePnment

Statistician to assist anybody who wanted to get the information. !d27 A. By· .iJfr. L. E . liroom.-Assuming that the consum ption was the widest possible limit, do you still think that there is sufficient ore in sight 1-Y es. I have considered the question in a general way. Even if that limit was increased several times there would be enough ore.

22 8. Do you kno\v anything about the deposits in Victoria the official reports there

would not seem to be any large deposits, but still of course they may not have examined them thoroughly yet. I wrote over to Victoria at the time I was preparing this book, and asked for all particulars ; a nd the particulars they gave me are given here. 229. Did you make inquiries regarding Queensland ?-Yes. Mr. Jack mentions immense iron deposits in the Cloncurry district.

230. Do you know of any other deposits in Queensl

232. It was stated. some time ago that there were large deposits about 6 miles from Ipswich, and a syndicate was proposed for the purpose of developing them ?-I know nothing about that. 233. Do yo u know anything about the South Australian deposits ?-I have no personal know­ ledge of them. ln a general way I have heard there are enormous deposits there.

234. Do you know anything about the quality of the ore ?.-No. I have heard it is good. I have not made any analysis myself. 235. Can you tel.l us anything about the iron deposits of Western Australia ?-Iron ores occur in Western Australia. As to the value of these ores from an iron smelting point of view, I could not say.

236. And as to the Tasmanian deposits. You have been officially informed of those deposits­ perhaps you could give us some information in detail ?-I think the best information is contained in the last report by Mr. Twelvetrees, the Government Geologist there. He estimates that at the Blythe River there are 17,291,000 tons of marketable ore available for exploitation above the level of the nver.

237. How does that stand the test of analysis 1-Accotding to the analysis of Mr. Ward it contains from 46 to 68·7 per cent. of iron, from 1·6 to 34 ·2 per cent. of silica, and from ·04 to ·09 per cent. of But I may tell you that that conveys very little to me, because he says the silica varies

from 1·6 to 34·2 per cent.; that is from an ore phenomenally low in silica to one that is out of all question high. I have seen this ore, and I believe that there extensive deposits of it. 238. Good commercial ore 7- Yes. I believe there is no doubt about that. 239. Have you any information as regards the New Caledonian ore?-Yes. There are extensive deposits t here, but the great majority of them would seem to contain a considet'able quantity of chromic oxide, which would militate against the use of the ore for ordinary purposes. It would be valuable for certain purposes. There may be other Jeposits that I do not know of; but on looking into the question I could only get particulars of deposits containing chromic oxide.

240. \Vhat do you think now as regards the deposits in the whole of Australia as to the

possibility of their supplying any requirements in Australia for iron 1-- -0h, I think that they could supply the iron for the next century, for certain-perhaps for many centuries. 241. From what you know of the geological formation of Australia generally, is it quite possible that t here are other deposits of ore which have not yet been discovered ?- That may be so. But what is ruore likely is that the deposits already known will prove to be of larger dimensions than they are believed to be at the present time.

242. If smelting works were established, say, upon the coast of N ew South Wales, near the coal-fields, do you think it would be possible, in the light of the experience of other countries, for them to profitably draw their supplies from some of these deposits yo u have ment ioned in other States; say, for instance, South Australia and Tasmania 7-0h, I think it is possible ; but I shou ld not like to say definitely that such ventures would be profitable.

lS J. n. l7tll Septembel't 1902.

243. I will put it differently. The mere fad of t he distance of the deposits from the smelting works, assuming thosf; works were put on the coast, would not in itself be an objection 1-For instanee, the Blythe River deposits are () miles from the seashore. Comparing the distance of those deposits from t he works, if placed on the so uth cofLst of New South 'iVales, with what you know of the distances ores are transported in Ge rmany and America, you do not think the distance alone would be an insuperable bar ?-No. Of course it would increase the cost of production; but, knowing what has been done in other parts of the world, I do not see why it should be an insuperable bar to the working of the deposits.

244. ·would you mind givin(( us the reason why you conHider the Lithgow district as a situable field for the erection of the furnaces ?-There are extensive deposits of good iron ore within a reasonable distance of the coal-fields. There are abundant supplies of coal, which at the time this book was written, in 1901, were delivered at the pit mouth at a cost not exceeding 4s. a ton. Mr. Sandford gave me that figure.

245. By M1·. Joseph Cook.-Th fLt is t h e cost to the consumer 1-He told me that it was costing him something under 4s. a ton for his coal-for the winning of the coal. That was the price of the coal to him. 246. I do not think it would cost him 2s. 6d. 7-I say-" not exceeding 4s., " and I think

that is an exceedingly cheap rate. I think there is nowhere else in the world where they can get it much cheaper. The next reason I give is that the climate is good, and there is an unlimited supply of good water. Good limestone can be obtained at Portland, which is distant by railway from Lithgow only 16 miles. There is an accumulation of many thousand tons of cinder, rich in iron, which could Le

smelted with the ores, and which would probably be a valuable addition to the furnace ch11rge. 24 7. What is the quantity of limestone at Portland 7-I think that it is probably inexh:.LUstibla. I haYe not made an exact investigation, but I have no doubt it is practically inexhaustible. 248. By Jl!T. L. E. Gt·oom.-I want to ask you to give: us some general information. You show here the commercial ores as follow-Magnetic ore or Magnetite, Red ore or Hremati te, Brown ore or Limonite1 S.pathic ore, Aluminous ore and Chrome ore. Could you classify those commercial ores for us in

what you consider the order of their value, if it is possible to distinguish them in order of value ?-It amounts to this-as a rule iron-smelte1 ·s like to have a mixture of a variety of ores; so it is very difficult to say. In a general way the most valuable ores are the magnetic ores and hrematite ores. 249. By llfro. Watson.--In that order?-vVell, a rich haematite should be as valuable as a rich magnetite. lt would be difficult to say that one is better than the other.

250. By Mt·. L. E. Groom. - Which is the next most valuable ?-Brown ore is nvt quite so good, because, as a rule, it requires more calcining-there is a lot of water in it. Spathic ore is sometimes an inferior ore, but often a very good ore. Many spathic ores are as good as haematite ores. Spathic ore is another name for carbonate ore.

251. What points determine the commercial value of iron ores 1-The chemical composition of the ore, its mechanical structure, and the nature of the impurities which it contains. 252. By Mr. Joseph Cook.-What do you mean by the "mechanical structure " of the ore ?-I will give you a,n instance. Take the Cadia ore, which contains sulphur. Before treating that ore you

would want to roast it to get rid of the sulphur. If it happened to be very dense it might be very

difficult to roast, because the air would not be able to get in to take out the sulphur. In that case it would be against the ore if it had a dense structure. Again, an ore might contain a certain amount of carbonate of iron which would decompose under the influence of heat, produce a porous structure, and assist in roasting out the sulphur.

253. By jJ1r. L. E. Groom.-And what is the next quality which wotild have to be considered?­ The position of the deposit relative to fu el, limestone and water, and the means of transport to t he fuel available. The third point to be considered is the cost of raising the ore--the cost of mining or

quarrymg. .

254. Can you tell us if the ores are ever found in a state of absolute purity ?-No; not like a state of chemical purity. The ores of iron are never found occurring in a state of absolu te purity. They invariably have other substances either chemically or mechanically associated with them, and not i-pfreq1.lently consist of two or more varieties of ore. ;

255. Can you tell us simply what the impurities are which are generally found ?--Magnetic ores seldom if ever contain even 70 per cent. of metal, and the great bulk of them less than 65 per cent. Perhaps the richest ore of commerce is the "K" grade, from Gellivare, Sweden, w.hich is to contain 68·69 per cent. of iron. quantities of ore are profitably smelted wh1ch contam only 30 or

35 per cent. of iron; but in these cases the impurities generally pos.sess. fluxing properties, so that. the cost of reduction is made cheaper. For practical purposes, when considenng only the percentage of Iron, we may perhaps clas.sify iron ores as follows:-Poor ores .. . ... 20 to 40 per cent. of iron

Medium ores .. . 40 to 50

Rich ores .. . .. . 50 to 70

The common impurities in iron ores may b.e classified two which

the value of an ore and those which enhance It. The former mclude sihca, phosphorus, sulphur, tltamc acid, and copper; the latter include magnesia, a,nd manganese. classifying the

ores I would rather use this arbitrary classificatiOn whiCh I have adopted here, that IS to say not to particularly regard the ores according to their :nineralogical that is as .magnetites or but to consider them as to their percentage of Iron. In descnbmg the ores m other countnes w the world they are always described as magne.tic ores, &c. . .

:l56. By Jfr. Watkins. - Doyou think, constdermg all the t.nrcumstances that you have mentwned at Lithgow, that that would be the as against works at a even

althou()'h you had to brin()' the ore from I asmama ?-I do not thmk I could speak defimtely on that point This book written for the State of New South Wales primarily; and then I was

considering the best place for the ores of New So uth !Vales, assuming that you not get ores from the colonies. I should not like to say at all whiCh would be the best propositiOn.

1439

J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1902, 14

25 7. By M1'- Fuller.-vVhen you were speaking . of the Carcoar deposit you said you were absolutely certain of there being 3,000,000 tons of ore there, but probably there would be 10,000,000. Would that probability apply equally to the Queanbeyan deposit 1-I have not had the same opportunity of examining t he Queanbeyan deposit. The Carcoar deposit was opened up by fiux quarries, and there

was a deep shaft sunk upon it, so I should not like to speak in the same definite manner in regard to the Queanbey

259. vVhile you have not had the same opportunities of prospecting in the Queanbeyan deposit, have you any doubt whatever that deposit is very much larger than the mininum estimate which you have put on it here ?-I would say the same as I say of the Carcoar deposit , that it is probably larger. 260. I s uppose it would apply generally to all these deposits ?-Not so much to the small deposits -the Spring deposits- because I could get a better idea of them. Take the Fitzroy deposit, where I had bores put down. I can speak very definitely with regard to that.

261. You are quite satisfied that t he Fitzroy deposit is not larger thn,n what you estimate here? think it very doubtful if it contains any more than I estimate. 262. I n Mr . Wilkinson's report he states that the quantity of iron ore available for smelting works in t he Mittn,gong or Picton district is estimated approximately at 8,234,000 tons 1-I cannot help saying t hat I clash with him there. I do not believe there is anything like that quantity. Of course I have had much better opportunities than Mr. Wilkinson had, because I had shafts and bores sunk on the deposits to prove them. He had not that advantage, and he had to give a general estimate.

263. By fih. L. E. Groom.- When was that estimate of his made ?-In 1891. 264. lJy fib·. J oseph Cook.- How long did it take you in the preparation of these memoranda?­ I suppose I was oft' and on engaged on it for two years, but then I also had other work to attend to. I was not on this work altogether.

265. It is quite safe to say that your examination has been a much more exhaustive one than any previous examination ?-Oh yes, I am sure of that. 266. By M1'. Fultm·.-You told us yesterday that there has been some good iron produced at Fitzroy, and you mentioned in your report here, on page 44, the fact of the seam of coal discovered there containing 8ft. Sin. of bituminous coal at a depth of 650 feet. Would that coal be valuable for use in working the iron ores found at Queanbeyan ?-The information that I had about this coal is very vague. They only put a bore dow n. They started a shaft and then stopped it. This I do know, that t he sarue seams, where they out-crop in the adjoining valleys, contain coal which is not good.

267. Would tha t be the Nattai Valley ?-Yes. They tried this coal in the early days when t hey were smelting this deposit and had to discontinue its use. •

268. By Mr·. Joseph Cook.-You are speaking of the out-crop?-Yes, but they have driven long adits, and worked the coal for some long distance in. 269. What distance ?-I could not tell you the distance, but I know they must have gone in two or three hundred feet at any rate.

270. Of co urse you know the out-crops of nearly all the seams are inferior?-Yes. They had coke works put down, and there were fairly extensive collieries there at one time judging by the workings. They put a tramway down, and I think they had the seams fairly well opened up. 271. By J1fr. Fulle1·.-I suppose you are sure that the out-crop at Nattai is the same as t hat at 1\'Iittagong ?-I think so. I h a"Te a geological map of the coal deposits in this book, and there is a section there showing that it is the same seam.

272. By Mr·. Watson.-The one Mr. Fuller is speaking of, is that at 650 feet think so.

273. By Mr· . Joseph Cook-The analysis seems all right ?- It varies very much. Four samples of the principal seams of coal gave on analysis the following results:-

Moisture ... ...

Volatile Hydrocarbon Fixed Carbon ...

Ash ... . ..

Sulphur .,. .. .

Specific Gravity .. .

Coke ... . ..

No.1.

1•35 25•77 60 ·06 12•24

0•56 1 •347 72·30

No.2.

1•40 24•61 59•22 14•08

0·69 1•376 73•30

No.3.

1•65 27•87 52·30 17'40

0•78 1'420 69·70

No.4.

1•17 19•25 47•59 31 •42

0·57 1'538 79•01

You will see that one contains 12·24 per cent. of ash whilst another contains 31 ·42 per cent. of ash. It seems to me t hat you have not very much information he1·e. There is only the statement that the per­ centage of ash in the lower part of the seam (sample No. l) is 12 ·24, and in the upper part (sample No. 2) 14·08.

27 4. By J1h. that informn,tion what would yo u say as regards the value of the coal

for smelting purposes ?-I say that the bore does not prove definitely t hat it is of value for smelting purposes. I would n,dd that t he same seam, where hitherto worked in t he immediate vicinity, has not proved to be good . There was a lot of work done in the Nattai Valley, and they had to stop working because the coal proved to be valueless.

275. I see you state that one of the features which gives a comm ercial value to the ore is its nearness to coal. The Queanbeyan deposit is t he outside limit of the field for which the Illawarra coal seams would be the eentre. How does the Queanbeyan seam compare in that respect, distance from the coal-field, with ores worked in other parts of the world ?-It is 108 miles from Queanbeyan to Moss Vale,

15

1441

J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1902.

and from Moss Vale across to Port Kembla, assuming a line were constructed, would be another 23 miles, which would bring it to 130 miles, roughly -speaking. Including the 12 miles of line required from the deposit to Queanbeyan, it would be, roughly, 150 miles. How would Queanbeyan compare with deposits in other parts of the world in regard to carriage 1-In America they carry it by train very

much farther. 276. And in England ?-The greater p01·tion of the best pig iron in England is produced from imported ores. The pig iron produced from a large proportion of the native English oreH is of a very inferior quality. The imported ore is largely brought from Spain, a distance of about 1,000 miles, by ships· over the sea; but the ore is very expensive. I may say th>tt the Bilbao ore is very expensive. I think they have to pay something like 1i:;s. or £1 a ton for it when it reaches England.

277. As compared with other deposits in England and America, the Queanbeyan deposit stands in a favorable position in regard to nearness to a coal-field 1-I would not like to say that definitely with regard to deposits occurring in England, but I will say it with regard to the Superior mines in

America, feom which the larger proportion of the American iron is produced. 27 8. By J1!?-. Jos eph Cook.-Are you, in making that statement, ·taking into account the difference in railway freights ?-No, I am not. I am simply taking distance. I am simply answering the question as it is put to me. 'rhere is another question that would have to be considered in smelting, and that is the ques tion of getting a proper blending of ores. In America, at Pittsburg, they are favorably situated in tlmt respect : they have large varieties of ores occurring at Lake Superior, and the

mines are not owned by the men who own the furnaces, and the furnace men buy so much Mesabi ore and so mu ch Menominee, &c., and make up a suitable charge. That is one reason why they are so successful in Pittsburg, because they are able to get a convenient blend of ores. 279. By Mr . .Fu.tler-. - Would not that apply to the ores in the so uthern field. You mentioned

that that aluminous ore at \Vingello was very valuable for blending purposes?-With a rich hematite. Well, to some extent it might apply, but I could not say how far. 280. For instance, the Blythe River ore iH a rich hematite. vVould not vVingello ore be valuable for blending purposes with it ?--I think it very probably would, but you see it depends on the amount of

other material that is in the ore. Take the analysis of the Government Geologist for the Blythe River ore. He states that it contains from 1·6 up to 30 per cent. of silica. If there be 1·6 per cent.

only of silica they would have to add aluminous ore or some other ore to form slag and get the furnace to run. If they simply had only 1·6 per cent. of silica the furnace would Hag because there would not be enough slag to k eep the charge fluid. But supposing it contained the higher proportion of silica it is a question whether they would require the aluminous ore. This aluminous ore is used for fluxing

the rich Cumberland hematite, which usually does not contain a high percentage of silica. It is very pure indeed. 281. In addition to the deposit at Blythe River there is a large deposit on the Penguin River, too, isn't there 7-I have heard of that, but I have no particulars.

28 2. I suppose there is no doubt that the iron will be brought to the coal ?-I think so, judging by what is done in other parts of the world. I think that will be found the more profitable method of dealing with it. 283. In the development of those two big deposits where in your opinion would be the most likely spot for their smelting ?-Somewhere on our eastern seaboard, either at Newcastle, or in the southern district, or Sydney.

284. But taking into consideration the difference which you gave us yesterday between the NewcasGle and the Southern coal for smelting purposes ?-No. Mr. Pittman gave you that evidence. 285. A re you aware of the difference between the two coals 7-Yes. Of course, it would be a little farther to take the ores to Newcastle also. The southern coast would be closer. Do you want me

to take Sydney Harbor into consideration, too 7 286. Y es 7-I think I can say that, that the Illawarra district would be the most convenient place to smelt those ores. 287. By M1·. Joseph Cook.-In the Illawarra district you would include Sydney and the Parra­ matta Rived- Well, of course, Sydney coal is a little bit under a cloud at present.

28 8. I am not referring to that at all ; but would you include in the lllawarra coast the

Parramatta River, irrespective of the coal being found there 7 Of course you know there is a proposition now to bring everything to Parramatta River ?-I thought they expected to use the Sydney coal at Parramatta. 289 . I do not think so. I think the idea is to get that coke, which you say is the strongest

in the world, from the Illawarra. 290. By MT . .Fuller.-Would not it be more to their advantage to bring their ore to the spot where the coal is mined, and where the coke is made, rather than to bring the ore to a place to which both the coal a.n d the coke would also have to be brought to smelt it;-Yes, I think it would.

291. By .!Jib·. Josep h Cook.-That is assuming that they make iron in the ordinary way without recrard to the residual products. Supposing, for instance, they put np a large electrolytic plant, as I un"derstand they contemplate, for using up the waste products in the manufacture of chemicals?­ I should say their primary object is to produce the iron, and I do not know that the manufacture of chemicals from the residue would be prejudiced in any way by having their works upon the south coast.

292. That would not make any difference, you think ?-No; but the question of fluxes would have to be considered. 293. By .ilb· all these things into t he positions of the and

P er 1guin rivers deposits, the positions of the other depos1ts of whiCh we have been speakmg, would the southern coal-fields be a favorable place for the establishment of iron works 1-In every respect, except flux, as far as I know. . . .

294. That is the limestone ?-I do not know of any large depos1ts of hmestone smtable for flux. 295. Are you aware of the deposits of limestone at Marulan ?- Y es, over there. That would have to be brought across.

J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1902. 16

296. The Marulan limestone would have to be brought in the same way as the ore from

Que::tnbeyan 7-Yes, on the same line. Are those deposits very extensive 7-Yes. I believe there is an inexhaustible supply of

good limestone in the Marulan and Goulburn districts. There is do doubt about that; a very fine limestone indeed. 298. By .A:b-. Joseph Cook-How far would that be from, say \Vollongong ?-It is about 23 miles across to the main Southern railway, but there is no railway at present.

299. By M1·. Fuller.--I will put it to you in this way : do the natural conditions of that

particular iron-field of Australia, taken in conjunction with the coal deposits, compare favonibly with other parts of the world for the establishment of a successful iron venture ?-The circumstances are not so favorable as they are, for instance, in Pittsburg. 300. In what way are they not so favorable as in Pittsburg 1-In the first place you have not got the same cheap flux. -

301. By M1·. Joseph Cook.-Nor the same cheap trainage. 302. By J£1·. Fuller.- vVe have a rate of 1d. a ton. 303. By .ilh. Joseph Cook.-They are carrying the great Lake Superior ore at 1-10th of a half­ penny per ton per mile on the railway ?-I think I would say t hat the conditions are favorable on the South Coast.

304. By Mr. Fu!ler.-But you would not feel disposed to go further than that ?-No. I should not like to compare them with Pittsburg. It would be a very difficult thing for me to do that. 305. Taking the whole of the circumstances of the Southern field into consideration how would it compare with the Lithgow field--remembering that the Tasmanian deposits would be available for Southern works ?-I do not know enough about the Tasmanian deposits from which Illawarra works would draw their supply of ore to be able to state definitely on that point.

306. You mean to say that you have not sufficient information about the Tasmanian ore ?-No. 307. We will take it with the construction of a branch railway line connecting Illawarra with the local ores. How would Lithgow and Illawarra compare then 7-I think Lithgow would have the better possibilities then on account of its ores. J,ithgow, with the Carcoar, Cadia, and Cowra ore deposits to draw upon, would -be in a better position than the Illawarra district. Of course I have never made any examination of the Lithgow coke. I cannot speak definitely of the coke there. I could not give you any information as to whether it is as suitable as the Southern coke.

308. vVith Lithgow as a centre what distance would you have to bring the Cadia ore by rail ?­ At the time I wrote this about Lithgow there was a railway to one of the big deposits, to Carcoar, and they were actually mining the ore and cttrrying it; and I took the existing rates for these estimates. It is 90 miles from Lithgow to Carcoar. I suppose it would be roughly 100 miles to the Cadia

deposits. 309. Would there be any necessity to construct a branch line to get at the Cadia deposits 1-y es ; 12 miles in a direct line. 310. By .JJb·. Joseph Cook .-That would be the Company's line. ']'hey would have ·to make that?-Yes. At Carcoar they have something under a mile to make.

311. By jJ£r. Watkins.-In relation to these modern furnaces, do they charge them solely with coke as a fuei ?-N o, I think they generally use a little coal as well. They can use a little coal

as well. 312. By M1· . Cook.-What kind of coal? Would it not have to be a strong anthracite?­ It would be better if it were anthracite, but I do not think it is absolutely necessary. I think they could use the Southern coal.

313. By .lVIr. Watkins.-Have you gone into the question as to the suitability of the different coals at all ?-No, I have not, I think I would rather not express an opinion on that subject. 314. I suppose you are aware that it is utterly impossible to use some coals for smelting purposes ?-Oh yes, I am aware of that. They can smelt without using coal at all. They can us e coke only if they like.

315. Still the question of cost would come in?-Yes. It has often been found an advantage to use a little coal as well. In some places still they smelt with only charcoal as fuel. They still find it economical to keep a few furnaces running with charcoal only-it makes a purer iron. 316. Is there any disadvantage in the presence of silica in the coal?-Yes. The less the silica in the ash, the better the coal for smelting purposes.

317. Is strength the only thing required in the coke ?-No. 318. There is no question of sulphur to be considered ?-Sulphur in the coke would be very objectionable for iron smelting. 319. And the question of ash has to be considered?-Yes.

320_ By Mr·. Joseph Cook.-There would not be any great percentage of sulphur in any ordinary ooke.?-In some of it there would be, but the less sulphur there is, the better the coke. 321. By },[?· Watkins.- Assuming these works were to be placed in one of the coal districts, strong coal without the presence of injurious ash would be a preferable coal to use in conjunction with coke to any soft coal ?-Yes; but then there would be other points to be considered. 1 should say a coal rich in carbon, a coal approximating to anthracite, would be a more valuable coal for smelting than a. bituminous coal.

322. You have not gone into the merits of the different coals from that stand-point, as to which contains the most carbon and which the most bitumen ?-No. 323. Then, in relation to the question of placing these works at Lithgow or on the coast, could you give us any information, now that we can draw supplies from other States, as to whether it would be better to put them up on the mountains where you have .to bring the product down to the seaboard to be· transhipped, as against putting the works at the port of shipment ?-That would certainly be an objection to the Lithgow site-its distance from the port. of shipment-as against a coal-field on the coast.

17

1443

J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1902.

324. By M1·. Watson.-A lot of t he products would have to be shipped to other parts of the Commonwealth- Yes; that would be an objection. 325. By M1 ·. Watkins. - But you have not go ne into the question sufficiently to work it out from a stand-poin t 1-No ; but I take it t hat a lot of the pi g iron and other products would have

to be taken to the other States. Some of the pig iron would have to be carried by rail to Sydney and then transhipped. . 326. So far as smelting is concerned in Australia to-day, have you gone into the question or noticed which cokes predominate in use for that purpose 7-'l'he Southern cokes. There is more Southern

coke ·used, I believe, than any other, but l would not like to say definitely. 327. I know t hat some people are blending the two coals with a view of sending coke to Broken Hill and other places 7-Most of the new coke ovens are bein()' erected down in the southern district. "'

328. But you co uld not say wh ether t hat was simply done from considerations of economy, or whether it was because the coke was better for the purpose I could not give any opinion on that subject. I have not gone into the matter except in a general way. 329. The wh ole t hin g, you think, would depend upon t he co mm ercial value of these fueb ; a,nd also the presence of fluxes a11d other con venienccs for smelting purpose,;?- Y cs, as to the cost at which

the ore could be produced. 330. By Jlf1' . Ftblle? ·. - Lithgow is 96 miles from Sydney, a,c ross the mountains. Taking t !J at into consideration, would t he establishment of iron works at L it hgow be of any value for the development of ores out ide the State of New South 'Wa,les ?-No. I t hink it is very unlikely that they wou ld bring m·es from the ot her States an l smelt them at Lithgow.

331. By Ah. Watkins.- Are you awa,re where the coa,l beds exist in New South Wa,les that rea,lly have the largest amount of carbon--which are the strongest 'I-I think the southern coal certainly ha:; more ca,rbon than the northern coal. 332. Are you aware that in the nort hern we em bra.co all classes of coa,l. vV c have the

b it uminous as well as a coal close on the a,nthracite ?- I have not gone into the question a,nd coulcluot answer it.

No.

333. You know nothing about what arc called the upper scams in the Newcastle district?-334-. H ave you any idea as to whether any flu xes exist a,round t he northern district near the coal this work I think you will find I give particulars as to the in the Port Stephens

district. On page 69 there is a,n analysis of the· limestones from the vVillimns and Ka.ruah ltivers. These are from sampl es which I collected from the beds there. 335. Did you find any large quantities there 7-Very little good limestone at a,ll of really first­ class quality. There is a certain quantity of second-rate limestone, b u t very little of first-class quality ;

perhaps hardly any that would compare with the Marulan or Portland limestone, and the bed:; are not very big. I would say t hat my investigations go to show that there is a very limited supply of good I imestone within a reasonable distance of Newcastle. 336. I n considering the value of iron ore, is it any test as to the purity of ore if it be used as a.

flux for other metals?-You mean to say, supposing it is used as a flux, would that be any indica,tion that it is good for the other pu rpo. e 7 337. Y es 7- To some extent it is. That is to sa.y, when buying the ore, buvers like an ore with a high percentage of iron in it ; and that is a quality which the iron would look fo r

too.

338. They require a fairly pure iron ore, free from any other materials-dirt, and so on ?-In a geneml way, that is so. 339. H ave you watched the operations of those smelting works that are eHtablished in New South Wales for the purpose of extmcting silver from low-grade ores and other metals 7- Y cs, to a cer ­

tain extent. 340. Can you say where they get the bigges t portion of t heir iron ore hom ?- They ha,1·e got a lot from Carcoar and a lot from Marulan. 341. Is that in the Southern district 7- Y es .

342. Do you know if they get the biggest portion from 'J.'a,sma,nia, 1- Yes. I know a, large pro­ portion of the flux comes from Tasmania. 343. Ily Mr. Joseph Cook.-Are you aware that all the ores now being sent a wa,y froin Carcoar go for fluxing purposes ?- Yes, that is so.

3H. By ilb·. Watlcins.-But you are also aware that the biggest portion that by those

people now comes from Y es; I belieYe that is the case- a very large qu antity, a,t any

rate. 345. They have tested pretty well all the iron ore in New outh \Vales with a, view to getting the best ?-There is another point yo u have to consider in this connexion. A man buying iron ore for fluxing purposes likes a small trace of gold or silver in it. . He recovers the gold and silver. It often occurs that the smelting companies will take :tn inferior fluxmg ore on a,ccotmt of the gold or

silver in it . 346. Are you aware whether the ore contains gold ?r "

34 7. If there was much I suppose 1t would pay t hem to \\'Ork 1t as a, gold nune 1-0h, no. I hat is not at all likely. The ores might contain say 1 per ton.' It is absolutely impossible to work such a,n ore with proftt as a gold ore, and yet the smelting compamcs woulJ get say 3s. 9d . a, ton for the gold in the flu x if they recovered it.

348. Are you aware that they the ore simply on account of its purity ?---It

be. I do not know. I have hoard it sa1d that It contams gold; bu t I baYe no means of ascertammg whether it does or not. 349. ByJ11·. J oseph Coul.;.- You ktl-c made some estim ates hct·e of Lhe cost of producing pig iron. You say that the cost per ton of ore containin g G3 per cent of iron and ·0 -15 per cent of plw.Jphorus at

F . l050!. c

·,

J. B. J aquet, l7lh September, 18

is given by Messrs. Head a t 12.·. 8d .; and the cost of producing one ton of Bessemer pig iron

at P ittsburg and Middlesbmngh, E ngland, is st ated to be as follows :-

1 ·66 tons oi ore at l 2s. Sd. 16 cwt. of coke at 7s. per to n 12 cwt. of limestone at 3s. per tou Labour ... Rcpait·s ... Other items

Pl'l'TSBURG.

Total

MmDLESDROUr:Jl .

I ·!).) tons of ore at l5s. 2d. 20 ·J cwt. of coke at His. 6cl. per to n !J cwt. of lim esto ne at 3s. 9d. per ton Labo ur .. . .. . ... . ..

Repairs .. . Other items

Total

£ s. d.

1 1 0

0 5 7

u 1

0 2 0

0 1 0

0 1 0

£1 12 51

----

£ s. d.

1 9 7

0 15

0 l

0 3 0

0 1 0

0 1 0

----- £2 12 2 ----Look fi rst at the Pittsburg estimate. You say t here that t he ore contains 63 per cent . of iron, and t hat it only takes I ·GG tons of ore to mak e a ton of pig-iron ?-Y es. 350. At L ithgow you sa.y :- "Below I give a full estim ate of t he cost of produ cing one ton of pig-iwn :--Calcining ore ... 2;1: tons of ore at Ss. 3d. 1 ton of coke at l5s. 10 cwt. limestone at 4s. Labo ur Repairs Sundr ies .. . £ s. d. 0 2 0 0 18 7 0 15 0 0 2 0 0 6 0 0 2 0 0 2 0 £2 7 7 " You estimate t hat t he ore wh ich will be used there is pretty much t he same quality as that used at P ittsburg, and yet you say t hat it will take 2i tons of or e to make a ton of pig-iron ?-The P it tsburg ore is estimated t o contain 63 per cent. of iron , buE t he Car coar ore, according to my t able, contains on ly 53 per cent .- -A difference of I 0 per cent . Of course t here are analyses which show t hat the Carcoar ore varies in metallic iron from 55 to 65 per cen t .; and, in making genera l estimates, I have rather had a tendency to make allowance for co nt ingencies, and to under-estimat e rat her than over -estimate. 35 1. t he cost of t he ore at P it tsburg, as shown by you, include the cost of t ransportation. Is i t the cost at t he point of use ?-The cost at P ittsburg, 12s. 8d . a ton, is the cost of t he ore to the iron smelter in Pittsburg. He buys it in Pit t sburg for 12s. 8d. a ton. 352. A n d the cost in Lithgow would be 8s. 3d. a t on 7-I estimate the cost of t he Car coar ore at t he present t ime at 8s. 3d. a ton. Y ou could deliver t he Carcoar ore in L ithgow at the present t im e fo r Ss. 3d. a ton ; and t hat is allowing 2s. a ton for royalty. It is a big royalty. 353. By Jlb·. Watson. - I s the Carcoar ore on private proper ty7-Yes. 354. By lib·. Joseph Cook.--Do t hey quarry ore at Carcoar for 1s. 6d . a ton ? Are t hese the pricliJS t hat are paid now 7-'l'hat is correct. 355. Where do you get this rate of 3s. 9d . a ton for the conveyance of t he ore 7-That is Ot d. a ton per mile- th e railway rate on ore carried in large quantities . 356. A re you aware that t he present rate for coal from Lithgow to Sydney is 6s. a ton, and the distance 95 miles; practically the same distance?-- I cannot speak as regards coal. There is a special rate for ore carried in 120-ton lots, I believe. 357._ JJy Jl[r. JVatlcins .--I suppose you ar e aware t ha t t hey pay, with a very slight reduction, almost ld. a mile on t he coal in the N ewcastle district 7-Yes. 358. By J!1·. Joseph Coolc.- Then t he ore i n your Middlesbrough estimat e is 1·95 tons of ore at His. 2d. a ton to prod uce a ton of pig iron. H ow do you account for t he excessively high price of t he ore at l\1 iddlesbrough 7-That is due to t he fa ct that t here t hey chiefly smelt Spanish ore from Bilbao, which is carried over the sea from 1:3pain. 359. You are also aware that in t he Cleveland district t hey smelt a lot of br0wn ore ?- Y es. 360. Do you know anything about t he quality of their own native ores 7-Y es; but you m ust remember t hat t he Bilbao ore produces t he best iron, and the Cleveland ore prod uces an inferior iron. 361. Is the cost of calcining included in t h e estimates fo r Pittsburg and Middlesbrough ?- I am not quite sure whether t hey do calcine there. It is not always necessary t o calcine an ore. I wo ul d not be certain t hat it would be necessary to calcine t he Lithgow ore, though I have provided for it in my estimate at 2s. a ton. 362. Have you checked these estimates since. Do you see any reason to alter t hem in any way 7 -No, I do not. I think that Lithgow estim ate is an outsid e estimate. :363 . How do you account for the great difference in the cost of ore at L ithgow, Pittsburg, and l\1iddlesbrough-in Pittsburg £ 1 1s. per ton of pig produced ; in l\fiddlesbrough, £ 1 9s . 7d. per ton; and in Lithgow £1 Os. 7d . per ton (18s. 7d . with 2s . per ton for calcining) 7--The cost of t hose ores depends on

19

1445

.T. 13. Jaqnet, lith September, 19M.

at Middlesbrough the ore ifl Sp:tniHh, which has to be brought from Bilbao, 1,000 mile;;, by sea, and probably a short distance by land as well, and t he ine<·eased at Middleshwugh i::; due to the high eos t-, of carriage. There iH not mu eh differe nce in the cost between J'ittsl'nrg alld Lit-hgow, £1 ];;. and £ lOs. 7d.

3G3A. Are you aware that in l\1 iddlcsbrough a,t the present time they arc using nati vc orcs down as low as 30 per You arc referring to the Cleveland ores.

364-. Yes 7-I am aware that they smelt Cl eYe land Ot'Cs containing perhaps Uw.n :30 per cent. of iron. :3G:), And if they could nfford to smelt that properl y why do they want this particular ore from Spain 7-Becausc the Cleveland orcs produce a very poor pig, which is unfit for t he mmwfacture of

by t he acid processes. The Clc1•eland orcs contain

clmw their supply from. Suppo.·e t hey draw their s upply from C

. 3G7 . I am speaking of yoU!' estimate ars you have given it hNc fOl' Lithgow. Does that i nclude equal classes of pig iron is the estimate for producing

at Lithgow, using the Carcoat' ore, they would usc an ore containing an objedionnhlc quantity of phosphorus. 369. And, therefore, assuming this estimate to mean pig produced from Carcoar ore, and the other to mean the best Bessemer pig iron in t he world, of what vnlue are these comparisons ?-They are

of valu e as showing you the cost of producing t he pig iron. 'l'he cost of production docs not depend on the value of t he product obtained. 370. But when the product i;; produced, that a ton of one is worth 15s. or £ 1 more

t han a ton of the other 7-It depend;, on what you use it for. I thought it would be a useful thing t o give a-n estimate of the cost of producing the pig iron. 371. vVe are considering now the competiti vc aspect of it. It is of no use our producing pig iron in Australia unless we can use it to compete 1--I cannot do any better for you.

372. Really t here is no comparison between a. ton of the best Be semer pig iron and a ton of pig iron pl'Oduced from the Carcoar ores do not know that. 373. Well, you have already told u" that one is much more valuable than the othcd-That is the only difference-one is a better class of iron.

374. And being a better class of iron, wc uld be worth more in the market Micldlcsbrough iron would be worth more in the mar·ket. 375. So t hat, although it costs more to produce it than the estimated cost of the Ca,rcoar iron, it may, when produced, be worth more in the market ?-That is so. The Middlesbrou gh pig iron wo uld be

wo rth more than th e produced from the Carcoar ore alone. 376 . Would that also apply to the Pittsburg iron 7-The Pittsburg iron is not quite so good as t he Middlesbrough, because the Bilbao ore is a purer ore than the great bulk of the Lake Superior ore. 377. Now, as to the coke: You say in Pittsburg it takes 16 cwt. of coke to make

I co uld get. 378. In Pittsburg it takes 16 cwt. of coke to make a, ton of iron, in l\Iiddlesbrough :20 cwt., and in Lithgow 20 cwt. The coke costs in Pittsburg 5s. 7d., and in .M:iddlesbrough i 5s. lO}d.- how do you account for that ?---I cannot account for it, except that these are the figures. The coke is so much

cheaper in Pittsburg; t hat is all. I cannot give you the r eason why they can make coke for 7s. a ton iu P ittsburg, but I have a very reliable authority stating that such is the case. 379. Doesn't i t seem almost incredible that there sh ou ld be thnt difference between the cost of coke in Middlesbrough and Pittsburg?- It seems ra.ther extraordinary; but I think those fi gure::; arc

reliable. is probably dearer a,t l\iidd lesbrough . This p:1.pcr by Head ,_ which _T :nn

quoting, was read, I think, before the Society of Engince l's in London, a,nd largely cntlcu;c J hy nnmng men and ironmasters in England afterwards. 380. By il.fr. L. E. G 'I'OOJn -Did it seem to stand the t est of criticism?-Y es. 381. By llf1· J oseph Coolc.-How do you think it comes a-bou t that in Pittsburg they can smelt

lt tons of ore with 16 cwt. of coke, while in Lithgow a ton of coke will smel t 21 tons ore-is that owincr to the class of furnace or what. In Middlesbrouo-h it takes a ton of coke to a httlc less than 2 to:s of ore-why should it' take less coke at Lithgow th;n at .Jliddlesbrough ?-Cum pare with l\liddlcs­ brough first: J ... ithgow, 2l tons of ore to 1 ton of coke ; l\lidJlesbrough. 1·9.) tons ?f or_ c to :20 ·3 cwt. of coke. There is not so much difference between them. Y ou sec h ct·e I state-" t h1s estu11ate mu st only

be regarded as a 1-ough approximat ion." In making t 1i.-; c.-;timo,h• I compared wiU1 a m1mlJl'r of other estimates, and I do not pretend that I am giving the exn,ct figures there, hu t you w

382. By ilfr. L. E . G1·oom. - You tlunk 1t 1s an extrem e lumt ?-Yes. . . . .

383. By J1b·. Joseph Cook-How do you get t he of coa,l th_ erc ?-1 found 1L \'C'IT .cld11 cult. I think that is the weakest item. At present they l1l'C makmg coke at L:thgow all(] clmrgtng £I Is. a ton for it. They were selling it to the Cohar people. I t hink I found they were then charging £ 1 ls. a

ton for makioo- cok e in small lots. Of com·se they co uld make it much cheapct· if they Wl'rc nmking a 0 . laro·e lot for iron works, so I red uced 1t b v 6s. 0 384,, Do you know wh rLt the cost of cokP is in the TllmmtTa district; fot· ins!rtncc•, Llw B t·oken Hill companies arc slllclting thei r own ore t here ; d<> yuu know what the coke c:osling theill --No. c 2

J. B. Jaquet, 17 th September, 1902. 20

385. You are no t aware t hat they are producing their coke at the present time for less t han 9s. a ton ?-I think that is very likely. I have a recollection now that I found t h1tt they were making the coke very much cheaper a.t other places t han they were making it at Lithgow. 386. A lt hough the coal is very much dearer elsewhere ftn d you have already told us that there is probably t he cheapest coal in t he world at Lithgow ?- ·Y cs . I have no definite information about the coal. I have heard t hat it takes very much longer to coke the L ithgow coal than it does to coke t he other coals; that is one reason why it is more expensive. But that is j ust hearsay. I have uevcr had an opportunity of investigating t he subject. _

387. But you know that co::tl costs more to in the Tllawarra district t han at L ithgow 1-Y es. 388. And you would not be sm·prised to hear that after purchasing that coal from t he proprietors of the coal-fields in Illawarra and producing your own coke they still do it at t he present time at less than 9s. a ton in t heir own ovens ?-I t hink that is very likely .

389. W ell then, if after purchasing that more costly coal they are able to produce their coke at less than 9s.

390. On t he whol0 you think this estimate is high 1-No. t he whole of my estimates are outside estimates, but taking that st

I should not like to say that. I think. particular item I would rather let it

391. You think that that wou ld be the cost, to Mr. Sandford say, in Lithgow at the present time 1-I have told you that it is really a rough estimate, and that I co uld not speak exactly on that point. I had a great deal of difficulty in arriving at this figure and it is t he best I can get. My

evidence is, I should say, of very little v;tlue as to what they could produce coke for. 392. Would you care to say who ga,·e you this information about the cost of coke up there ?--I think it is most probable that I got it from 1\'Ir. Sandford. I think he bought a little coke, and he told me it cost him £ 1 l s. a ton buying it in small lots. I would not say for certain about t hat.

393. In this comparative estimate you have got down-" Labour 2s . per ton" in Pittsburg. vVhat does " labour" include there-merely the cost of operating the furnace ?-I take it that it includes the whole of the labour. I had ver-y little data to go upon when I made the estimate of the Lithgow cost. They were making very little coke at Lithgow then. This can only be regard ed as a rough

approximation. I had the greatest difficulty in arriving at anythi ng like a good conclusion, but I had to give an approximate estimate. 394. Now, as to this labour. vVhat does this labour cost include-2s. per ton of pig iron at P ittsburg-does it mean the cost of operating t he furnaces ; for instance, I presume t he cost of the ore includes the cost of mining the ore ?-That is so. The "labour" is the labour employed in handling the ore from the time it is delivered.

395. In operating the furnace 1-Yes. 396. Now, you have it at 2s. in Pittsburg and 3s. in Middlesbrough. Have you any opinion as to that difference in price ?-I do not know. I have simply taken their figu res . . 397. The popular assumpt ion is that wages-{lre very much lower in Engbnd than in America?­ Yes, but in America they may use a lot of labour-saving appliances. I am simply t aking the figures as they are quoted by Messrs. Head.

398. Can you . tell me why you put labour down at 2s. in Pittsburg, 3s. at :!VI iddlesbrough, and 6s. in Australia ?-As I told you I wanted to make an outside estimate. The probability is that they co ul d produce it cheaper. 399. Don't you think it is very much outside-anyhow, you say the probability is that they could produce it cheaper. N ow, I notice, repairs you ha.-e I s. per ton in Pittsburg, I s. per ton in Middles ­ brough, and 2s . in Australia-that again you regard as an outside estimate?-Yes.

400. And the same with regard to the other items, sundries, I s. each in America and England, and 2s. in Australia ?-That is so. 40 l. You regard all those as being outside estimates?-Yes. 402. I suppose you know nothing about t he cost of bringing other ore from Tasmania to New South vVales ?-No. I can give no estimate as to what it would cost .

403. If you were revising this estimate of yours now woul d you modify any of these items ?-I would not. 4-04-. You would still leave them at what you regard as an outside rate?-Yes. This was on ly a rough approximation, and I thought that in a work of this kind it was better for me to give outside estimates.

-i05. To err on the safe side?-Yes. I thought it would be advisable to giYe a rough sort of approximation, and this is the one I gave. I know well enough that no one had got the dr,ta to enable him to give an accurate estimate. I say directly afterwards in my bvok-" This es timate must only be regarded as a rou gh approximation."

406 . It does not take into account the interest on the capitnJ out lay?-It does not. 407 . By A£1·. L. E . Groom.-But that applies in each case ?-Yes. 408. Ry 1111-. Ji'ulleT.-In answer to 1\'Ir. Cook you said that t ho Carcoar ore contains some objectionable features, and that first-class iron could not be produced from it 'I-I did 110t say it would not be suitable for steel, but I said it would not be suitable for the manufacture of steel by the cheaper acid process.

< J09. It woul d not be on an equality with the Middlesb1 ·ough pig· iron; produced from t he B il bao ore ?-No. 4 I O. Nor would it be equal to t.he Pittsburg ore ?- No. It wo uld not be equal to the iron

produced from the gr at bulk of the Lake Supcrior ores. I dare sny they do produce a large quantity of iron of t hi s quality in P it tsburg.

21

1447 J. B. Jaquet, 17th September, 1n02.

411 . Does that apply t o t he Cadia ore ?- There is a large quantity of ore in Cadia fro m which t hey could produce pig iron fi t for the manufacture of steel by the acid process, the cheaper

412. ·would t hat he on-an equality wit-h. the stuff t urned out in P itt sburg and Middlesbrough ?-Y es, I thi nk it would. ... · · · ...

i 1:3. B y }Jf r . Watson .- You are referring no w to the oxicl i.zecl or e.s ?-Yes ; and it is quite possible t ha t the whole of the ore might be used to make a pig iron suitu,ble fo r steel manufacture, though I should not like to speak definitely upon that point. It is quite possible tha,t t hey m>Ly overcome t he copper and sulphu r 'djiliculty.

414. Is there t he same d ifficu l ty with regard to the Blythe River and other ?-vVell, if we take the analyses given by ::\'lr. Twe!vetrees, t here iti sometimes :ts much as ·09 of phosphorus in the ore. 4 15. By jJf? ·. J oseph Cook.-vV hat. nre the silie:t contents ?--From 1·6 to 34·2. \Vell, thnt menns

nothing at all. It does not tell yo u what the avemge grade of the ore is. 41 G. By Jlf1·. L. E . Groom.- That means from t he useful to t he useless?- Yes. Now, take. the phosphorus : the lowest is ·04. Well , suppose it was a 50 per cent. ore, the pig iron produced from that would contain, roughl y speaking, twice that amount of phospl10rus, or ·OS. \ "fell, that would not be a very good pig iron fo r steel. ·06 is genemlly considered the Bessemer limit. The Blythe R iver ore runs from ·04 to ·09. If the ore contains 50 per cent. of metallic iron, th e pig iron produced from ore

containing ·09 of sulphur would coutftin ·18 of wlphur. If figures are correct, the Blythe Hiver ore would not produce a very valuable pig iron. · +17. By Jlh·. Watson.-The figures are not of much value ?-The phosphorus is better to judge by. I think yo u can consider the amtlysis as regards its phosphorus as being of some use to us.

4 18 . .By M1·. F1bller.-Then we would not get from the Blythe ltiver a product similar to P ittsburg or Middlesbrough iron ?-Not if those figures are corr·od. I do not know about P ittsburg. I think it wo uld approximate to the Pittsburg, but probably not he HO good as the Middlesbrough. 4 Hl. How would the Queanbeyan deposit stand in this connoxion. \Vould thoro be t he same objection 1-I t has not been opened up. A > far as my analyses go, th ey show. it to be an ore from whieh a vahmble steel-making pig i ron could be produced. The Quean boyan ore is unquestionably very low in phosphorus, and in t hat respect i t wo uld b e a valuable pig. Of course i t contains a trace of copper, which is certainly against it; but the copper is not very high.

4 20. By .Mr. L. E . Groom.- 1N ould it compare with tlte Bilbao ore at all ?-Yes, I think it does co m pttre wit h it. '12 1. lJy Jl[r. Fnller. - Thca of all the ores in Austmlitt, mny we take i t that the Queanbeyan ore stands first fo r tlmt particulnr purpose ?-No. I would not say that. T here is a very good ore at

Broula, near Cowra. I estimate that tl 1ore are about l 00,000 tons there. 422. By Mr. Watson. - M r. Fuller wants an estimate of q ual ity in relation to quantity. 423. By .Af?·. Puller.-Yes. The big deposits are Carcoar, Cadi

not been opened up, and I bil.ve not got the n umber of analyses of Queanbeyan ore that I have of other ores. 424. vVi th regard to the Sou th A ustmlittn There is a very hu·ge deposit in South

Australia; is it n ear t he coast ?-I think it is close either to Po1·t Pirie or P ort 425. For t h e development of that particular field, where will be the most likely spot for t he erection of iron works from a geolog ica.l point of view. You a geological knowledge of South Australia, I presume ?--Only f ro m what I have read. I do not think they haYe found any good coal

t here. 426. Speaking from your geological knowledge of Australia ?-I should say on our sea-board undoubtedly-on t he sea-boa rd of New South \Valef, 427. In r egard to Lithgow, the existing rate for the conveyance of ore you have put down at 3s.

9d. per ton. vVh ere is t hat from ?-That is f rom Carcoar. 428 . How much would it be from Cadia ?-They have not got a railway constructed t here. 42 9. Supposing t hey had a railway const r ucted, how much would i t be ?-If th e Government constructed the railway it would be about 10 miles f urther, and t ha t would be about 5d. a t on

more. 430. 'l'hat would bring i t up to 4s. 2d. 7-Yes. Cadian ore should cost about ±s. 2d. to bring it from Cadia t o Lithgow. 43 1. B y 1'1-h. Cook.-As against that, if the line were constructed righ t up to the deposit at Cadia you could deduct the l s. per ton which you have included in the Carcoar rate as the cost of

cartage to t he railway ?-That is so. My estimate in connexion with t he Lithgow is made sup­ posing that Carcoar ore were to be used. If Cadian ore were there w<:_uld be a mcrease on t he

cost on account of t h e extra distance it would have to be earned, about od. a ton If the Government construeted the railway, and if the rates were t he same as they are now. · 432. vVould t here be any cartage if the railway were taken right up to the mine 7-No. 43 3. B y 1YI1 ·. Fnlle1·.-In the estimate here for Carcoar ore, deliYcred at Lithgow, there is Is. a

t on included for car tage?- Yes. 43 4. That I understand in consequence of the quarry being a mile from the railway, and you allow l s. a ton?-Yes. . . . _

435. Now, if this line is comtructed to the Cad1an quany you say It will cost od. extra, 5d. over and above the eost at Carcoar, but as the l s. a ton for cartage would not be required, there would really be a reduction of 7d. ?-In the event of a railway being constructed by the Government to Cadia t he cost of t he ore to Lithgow would be 4s. 2d . per ton, and in the event of the siding being put

in to deposit Carcoar the cost of conveying this (Carcoar) ore to Lithgow wou ld be 3s. 1 O cl . per ton .

J. D. net,

litl1 Hcptl'llliJCi' 1 100:!. 22

4·3G . By Jlh. J oseph Cook.-Hero is you r es tima te-" 'l'he cost of delivering the Carcoar iron me upon the rail W

tract Price for Quarrying

8m·t111g Ore to Rnihrny ...

s. d.

1 6 per t on.

1 0

2 6

Tho quanies are less than a milo distant from the railway · and in the event of a market bein " found fur J b largo regular supplies of ore, a short line might be constructed and the ore delivered directly into the rmlway trucb. Tho di:-;tanct' by railway to Lithgow is 90 miles, and the existing rate 'for t l1 e eon veyance of ore is 3s. 9d. per ton ; so the ore cou ld be delivered in Lithgow for G :-;. 3d . ptr ton, and I propose to increase this amount by in order to provide fo r royalties, profit, &c."; which makes up Ss . 3d. per ton ?-Yes. In Cai·coar, if they run the rail way line right up to the quarrie,, t here will be a saving.

4.37 . By Jb-. Watson.- The .Bilbao ore is looked upon as one of t he best ores available to-day I understand ?-The Cumberl and hematite-the ore mined in Cumberland, England, is about as good, and oven better orcs m·p in Norway and Sweden.

438. That is largely worked h ut I believe the Bilbao deposits are largely worked out.

. . . Taking the quanti ties of reall y superior ore available in the world to-day they seem to be

largely ?-Oh n o. 'l'he American Rupplies, although not quite so good as the Spa nish ore,

are really very good . They lmve inexhaustible s upplies of very good ore in America. 4-!0. l\Jr. Fuller was asking whether the Bilbao ore was better t han tho ore used at Yes. 4+1. 'Ve might therefore rate the Pittsbmg ore brought from the Mesabi Ranges 1ts second-rate m·o ?-No. I would call it fi 1·st-class; and I would call the :M:iddles brough extra fir ·t-class.

442. It would seem then that the Pittsburg ore wo ul d be roughly as good as you are likely to usc throughout the world in any gr eat quantity?-Y cs. 'l'he supplies of some of the very pure ores i11 the world are getting used up. 4-13. Therefore it is not necessary, in regard to any commercial undertaking here in Australia,. to set om· ore against .the Bilbao oro, but rather t he Pittsburg 1·-I think you might tu,ke it that even if it a little inferior to the Pittsburg ore it will he sufticient for all purposes.

4H. Do you think the Cadia a nd Cnrcoar deposits are better than the Mesa.bi or es ?-No. The L

44G . By Jh-. 1Vatson.-But taking it generally you think the Australian supply of ore is fairly f.!;•)Od ?--You arc talking in regard t o its usc for t he manufacture of steel after having manufactured it

i11to pig-iron. Pig-iron is not only used for the m:1nufacture of stee l. If you are talking of the man u­ facture of steel I think, on t he whole, t hey are not very good . 447. 'l'ake steel rails-would you get as s'l.tisfactory results for railway purposes yes, I believe they could make very good steel out of them, but I think it would cost rather more to produce the steel.

448. And for general manufacturing purposes, such as agricultural implement::; and machinery of kinds ?- Y cs.

-149 . But it would cost a little more?-Ycs. A good foundry iron could be mad fl from Carcoar ore. -!50 . By jjf?-. J?ulle1 ·.-Do I understand you to say that it would cost more to prod uce the steel, and then when produced it would be of an inferior quality 7-I do not t hink it would be of an inferior 11ua,lity, I think it would be a very good steel though it might not be so good as some produced from t he

very best vres. 451. On the whole, would it he on an equality, for instance, wit h the Pittsburg steel1---I think it would come very close to it, if not as good. 452. And how much would it cost ?-I cannot g ive you any idea of t hat. I co ul d not g ive you any idea as to wlMt the extra cost would Le, because they would probably have to use one of t hese new processes, and I could not give you an estimate as t o what the increased cost wo uld be.

-!53 . By 1lh. Watson.-I would like you to g ive sho1-tly some account of the initiation and failure of the iron industry in New Sou th "\Vales ?-There are no ancient iron-workings here. Most co untries have ancient where the iron has been worked by the aboriginal inhabitants. "\Ve have

nothing of that kind here. Iron was first produc"ld from native A ustralian ores about the year 1852 at Fitzroy, near 1\Iittagong, and smelting was c:trried on intermittently in this locality between the years 1852 and 1877. The ore was obtaiiwd from a superficial mass of limonite deposited from Chalybeate Spring waters. Local coal obtained from the Nattai Valley was first of all used for fuel, but it proved unsuitable, u,nd subsequently the furnace was supplied with coal and coke brought from Lithgow and B ulli. At least

4,000 tons of pig iron 1nust haYC been produced, but no records are available as to the exact amount . Much of the pig iron to have been of excellent quality. Some of it was exported to San

Francisco in America, nnd favorably commented upon by buyers in this city. The venture did not prove 1inancially successful, partly 011 account of t ho gTeat cost of the fu el and partly on acco unt of the ;.;mall sc::tle of the opcmtions and goneml mismanagement. Fuller details will be found in h ·on 01·e .Deposits rf New South Wcdr's , 1, 2, and 3. Iron smelting was started at Lit hgow (Eskbank) in

187[>, one small blast furn ace being employed. T his furnace was in blast intermittently during several :vears, and about 22,000 tons of pig i1·on were producc1l. The ore was obtained from the narrow. clay­ oands which are interstmtifiod with the co::tl meas ures in the I,ithgow Vttlley, and also from depos1ts a t N owbridgt' nnd Blayney. A pl'Ufit did not result from t he opemtions. The pig iron produc(ld was used for fo und ry purpose-s, :w d no attempt was made to eonvc- rt it into steel. Th e works were not properly equipped, ttnd were upon a \'Cry i>mall scale-, and those ei rcum stm1ces mu st, in a _great_ measu re caused Lhc operations to be unpl'Ofitablc. \Yith n mod em blast furnace of average d111Jens10ns more n·on

23

1449

J. B. J aquet, 17th 'eptcmbel', lOOi

co uld be produced in a few mon ths than tlt e Lithgow Worh produced cluring yca,rs.

Small furnaces using charcoal for fu el have been erected in the State of Victoria, South Australia, and Tasmania. Only insignificant quantit.ies of pig-iron were produced, and none of the furnaces remained in for any length of time (Vide b·on Deposits of New Wales, pages 1±7, 14-8, and 150).

Before conclucling I may state that no attempt has hitherto been made to produce iron from Australian orcs upon a co mprehensive scale, and no steel has yet been produced from Australian pig-iron. It is true tlmt a little steel has been recently manufactured at I-ithgow, not however from pig iron but from scrap, which must have at some time or other been imported from abroad.

45 -L I have just drawn up a sh,ort table showin g so me information whid1 we would like to have in a concise form, giving the different occurrences of iron, their analyses in a rough way (giving only those ingredients or elements which are held. to be detrimental to smelting or to the manufacture of steel a nd any elements which will be advantageo us for those purposes), the of ore, the estim ated

minimum quantity in tons, the average contents of metallic iron, flilicn, phosphmus, wlphul', titanic acid, aud a.lumina, and any other information which you may suggest as useful. You might give the distance of the deposit from the coal and from the limestone, and you might include the information as to t.he tenures which M:r. Pit tman has promised to prepare ?-I will do so. 'l'h o information follows :-

Locali L.r . J escript ion of Ore. Estim ated Minimum Silica.

per cent. per cent.

ANALYSES.

Phosphorus per cent. Di stance from Coa l. Tenure. H cm n.rks.

- - - -------------- - --- ·----- ·------1--------[----------

Quea.nbeya.n Magnetite 1,000, 000 50 to 00

Brea.dalhane Brown ore, 700,000 50 to 60

wiLh some

hCIHnti te

Chalybeate Brown ore 1,510,000 45 to 55

Spring d e·

posits of Mi t -tagong, Pic-ton, &c. IYin gello Aluminous 3,000,000 15 to 25

(bauxite) ore

Goulburn " Brown ore 1,022,000 40 to GO

Marulan Brown ore, 40,000 40 to 55

with h em a-tite

" "illia..ms and Titani.fcrous 1,973,000 40 to 50

1\ aruah River rlist l'icts mag netites

Cadia " H ematite, mag·- 30,()1)0,000 50 to 60

netite and

c"arbonate ore

Carr.oa r 1-Iro ma.tite a nd 3,000,000 50 to 55

brown ore

Cowra 100,000 60 to 65

Gulgong Magnetite 120,000 60 to 65

and Brown ore 609,000 50

Woodstock

Mudgce Brown ore with 150,000 40 to 54

tnan g-anesc

Newbridgc, Brown ore and 150,000 40 Lo 55

Blayney, and mag neti te

Ry lston e and Brown ore 44 3,000 40 to 55

Cudgegong

\ Vall erawang Brown ore 2,0\!0,000 40 to 55

and Piper's

FlaL

Total 53,017,000

5 to 10 0'01 15 mil es by road,

117 miles by

train to Mitta-g·o ng*

5 to 10 0 ·098 t o 0 mil es by train

to M i ttagong- ·*

4 to 16 o·o5 Lo 3 '0 Coal underlies

deposits

5 to 20 o·oz to o·2 1 to 3 miles by

road, 28 miles by t rain

*

t o

5 to 13 0·1 to0·5 1 to 10 mil es by

road, 57 miles by rail to

Mi ttngong "'

5 to 13 o·1 to 0·5 35 mi les by train

to Mi tta;;ong *

10 to 20 0·04 to 0·2

5 to 14 ·013 to ·O f> l 12 mi lcs by road,

00 miles by

train to Lith·

gow

4 to 11 ·o2 to '17 1 mil e by road,

00 miles hy

.train to Li th-gow

2 to 6 '03 8 miles h.r road,

130 mileR ·b.r train to Lith-gow

2 to 6 '03 30 mil es by road,

00 miles hy

t rai n to Lith-

g-ow miles hy 3 to 8 ·oi to ·83 3 to 6 roarl, 05 miles by t ra in to

3 to 10 ·so 13 road,

90 miles by

train to Lith ·

gow

5 to 12 to 5 m il es b,·

road , abou t HiO miles by rail

to Lithgow

:; to 1G '05 to ·3< • 4 to 10 miles by

r oad. fiO mil es b\· t rain t o

Li t hgO\\"

5 to 16 ·unto·;,:! to JO by

road , lJy train to

Lit h:;ow

Upon C. P. :\lid

C. L. lands. !ron-stone resened to Crown P

vat e land a ncl pru·tly t: pon

C.P. 1and1 wit!. minerals ...

served t o t he

Crown Chiefly upon pri· vatc land. A

few d e] osits

a.re upon Crown lands Chiefly upon C. P. lands, with

min ends l'C·

SClTCtl to the

Cro\\Ta Chiefly upon pri-m te land

Chiefly upon 0, 1?. la.nds, w1th

minerals re-

served to the

Crown Partly upon pri-,·ate land an d

partly upon

Crown lands Private Janel

(owner has alJ-solute right to ironstone)

Printtc land

(owner h as

rig·ht to i"ron· stone)

Chiefly upon

Crown land

co,·ered by

mineral leases

upon pri­

,·ate and pa rtly u pon Crown

land Pri"a.te land

Crown land,

co,·crecl In ·

mineral lcas·c not in force upon pri­

,·at e land

:\ lainl _r upon C: P. lands w1 t h

tn inerals rc-

sen ·ed to

Crown Partly upon pri­ ,·ate and part l_,­ upon Crow11

land

1\ ,·cr y ''alunUl e orQ, sui tabl e

fo r steel nH\nnfa.cture hy t: hc[lper acid

A good ore, hut the phos­ phorus is h igh

A series of scaUct·cd <·u.pa.ble of y ielding limitt!d quau tiLies of good oro

These orcs could on J,,· Ue

smelted in coujunction with other Ol' CS

A series of scattcr e(l c1.e­

posits

Theso are poor orcs, cont.nin­ in o- a lng·h percentage of tit..'lnic acid. No prcsc.:nt commercial value The bulk of this ore

co1;tains objectionable quanLili <'s of copper and but a vortion of

it (l ,COO,OOO tons? ) is

!-' Hita.bl c for usc in the

lllauufacturc of steel by the c-heaper acid proC'esscs .

Pi g- iron pt·oduccd from Lh ts Ore would be achnirably adapted for fou nd r) po5:cs, and would he smt·

able for t he mannf

protC8S

ores occi.ttTin g else" here ill the \\' Oriel. Splendid steel could be p rod need from

t he pig iron y it 1d ed lJ,,. Ot e An C\. C'e ll e n t ore. Suitable for steel m a nufacture Uy

acid

A fairly g ood brown . ore

This ore wou hl ,·aluable

fo r certain purposes to the ironmastcr on acc·oun t of t he it r·ontains

A seri es of small scattered de-posits

.\ series of dcposi C:-i

• :\litt.agong is distant from lllawarra coal-field about 30 mil e:s. .\railway lin e has been sun·eye d but not constructed

24

( 11tken at liielbourne.)

WEDNESDAY, 24TH SJ;;PTE.MBER, 1902.

%£embers )J?'esent :

The Hight Hon. 0. 0. KINGSTON in the Ohair ; Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. G. vV. Fuller,

1\Ir. L. E. Groom, lYir. J. vV. Kirwan,

Mr. S. Mauger, Mr. J . 0 . Watson.

William Henry Matthews, ·warden and Mining Inspector, South A ustralia, examined. 455. By the Cha-i1·mcm .-I take it that you have had a good deal of mining experience ?-Yes; extending over 35 years. 456. In Australia 7-Yes, throughout the States.

457. And you have given your particular attention to mining in South Australia 7- Y es; during the last few years. '!.58. Have you gi1ren much attention to the iron industry 7-I have seen a very large number of irou lode:; and deposits in South Australia, but I am afraid that we have not given so much attention to them as, probably, we ought to have done.

459. 'l'he Government Geologist in South Australia is Mr. Brown 7- Yes. 460. Where is he at present7-At Obadotte \Vaters; otherwise he would have been here. H e will not 1·eturn to Adelaide for another fortnight. 461. Have you formed any opinion with regard to the iron resources of South Australia 7-Yes; I hold a ve1·y strong opinion that we have immense quantities of ironstone in that State-millions and millions of tons. The hon Knob is one of the chief lodes that we have, and that crops up above the :; mrounding country to a height ranging from ±00 to GOO feet.

462. vVhere is that situated ?--About 40 miles from the Hummocks, or False Bay, on Spem:er's Gulf. 463. 'l'here is a railway from the Iron Knob to False Bay7-Yes. 464. And on the other side of the Gulf is Port Pirie 7.:_ Yes. 465. Where the smelting of Broken Hill ores is chiefly carried on ?.-Yes. 466. The iron ore from the Iron Knob is chiefly used by the Broken Hill Proprietary Co.?- Yes, as a flux for smelting purposes.

467. About two years ago the Broken Hill Propriet

469. And they are now running ore down from the Iron Knob to Bay, loading it into

ketches, aml conveying it across to Port Pirie, and using it for fluxing purposes t here 7-Y es. 470. Have you any particulars as to the quality of that ore 7-'l'he particulars I have are t hat the ore contains 65 per cent. of malleable iron, and 2 per cent. of silica. That is t he only determination I could obtain.

±71. Can you describe the general character of the ore ?-It is brown hematite chiefly. 472. Do you know whether or not the whole of the Iron }{nob has been taken up by the Broken Hill Proprietary Co.7-I could not say. They have a large number of leases, but I co uld not say whether these embrace the whole of the Knob.

473. You mean leases from the Crown ?-Yes. 4 7 4. Do you know the acreage of their holding 7-N o; but I believe t hat they hold about ten 40-acre leases. 475 . .And you say that the Iron Knob is a hill ranging in height from 400 to 600 fee t above t he surrounding country?-Yes.

476. Can you say that the hill is entirely composed of ironstone?-You must understand that I am giving you this description of the Iron Knob from the information I have received from Mr. Brown, Government Geologist, and others who have made official reports regarding it. The lode is about 80

feet wide and runs through the top of the hill, consequently the upper portion wo uld be abou t 100 fe et deep down to the level of the plain. The B roken Hill Propriet

478. By the You have some photographs of t he mine in your office?-Y es , I have

seen them. 479. Would you kindly send them to us 7-Yes. 480. Is there anything further you 'vould like to say with regard to t he description of that mine? --Not that I am aware of. ·

±81. Could you tell us anything as to the quantity of ore avail able at the Iron Knob 7--:r under­ >tand that no estimates have been made as to the quantity. I thought t hat the Proprietary Company ::night have some, but on application to them yesterday I found that they had none. They have such quantities of iron ore-millions of tons, and far more than they will ever require--that they

:lid not think it necessary to make an estimate of the quantity. '182. Is there anything further you would like to say with regard to this particul ar mine7- No, I do not know anything further, except that I might point out that the Broken Hill P roprietary Company have laid down a railway and a jetty at a cost of £ 80,000, for the purpose of securing this ore for use in their smelting operations. This shows that their conception of the supply must have been a· very liberal one. 'l'heir first estimate was that the work would cost from £90,000 to £100,000, but I believe t hat they ha1•e carried it out for the amount.

·l13:1. Can you anything as to Lhe suitability uf ore for iron smelting ?- I do not think

much better ore could be obtained. T do not th iHk there is anything to interfere with its use as flux in he smeltiug of lead ores, and its quality has been proved to that extent.

1451

25 " ' · H. l!Iatthews, 24th September , 1Q02.

. 484. I s that the only ore which t he B1·oken Hill Company use now for smelting purposes?-That I S the only ore they have now. Pri'or to the last six or seven months they used ores which were obtained

from all parts of the State-from Franklin Harbor, from Port Lincoln, Gawler, \Vill iamstown, Angaston, or anywhere else whence they co uld obtain ib. For the last six m o:1bhs, however, they have been using t he Iron knob ore exclusively. 485. Then may I take it that the Iron K nob is t he chief iron deposit of which you know in So utt,

o; it is one of the chief deposits- probably it stands slightly above some of the others.

There is the Oodla vVirra deposit, which I have visited many times. 48 6. \ IVhat is its si Luation with reference to the sea-board ?- It is aLout l G miles from Petersburo-, which I think is a bout 120 miles from Port Augusta. "'

48 7. I s it 1 G miles off t he railway line at Petersburg ?- No. It is 1 G miles along the line, and is within 3 miles of the railway. 488. \ Vhat is the distance of the Oodla \Virm deposit from Port Adebide ?--About 170 mileR. I t hink that P etersburg is about 172 or 173 mil es from Adehide.

48 9. By lJfr·. J oseph Cook - I s the1·e a ra ilway from P eter sburg to Lh o coast ?- The r is a line from P etersburg to Po-r t Augusta, t he latter pbce being a most excellen t port . 490. By the Chai1·man.- You say t hat the distance from Port Augu>;ta is about 120 miles, and from Port Adelaide 190 rnil es ?-Yes.

491. vVhat is the character of t he ore ?- It is brown ironstone. Til e cieposi t is known as the Oodla \Virra F lu x Mine. It is a very large lode formation, wh ich crops out above the surface, which dips in places, fo r over half a mile in length, a nd it can be t raced up for The lode is over 100 feet in

wid t h. In places there is a little int rusive rock showing, but the ore is generall y of a good class, and ca.n be cheaply and easil y raised . 492. Do you know what the output from the Iron Knob is ?- No; but I should judge from t he opemtions of t he Broken B ill Proprieta1·y Co. it would umount to about :),(100 tons per week.

493. I s the Oodl a vVirra F lu x mine being worked ?- Not at present. It been worked, and a ra ilway lin e to join the Government service been fo r about three miles to tho .mine,

which was worked to supply the Port Pirie smelters with flux prior to the opening up of t he Iron Knob. 494. By L. H. G1 ·omn. - That was up to about t h e end of 18 9o ?-Yes. vVhen they

commenced work at the Iron Knob t hey suspended operations at t he ot her mines. 495. By the Chctirman.- 'l'h at was because it was cheaper for t hem to til t hemselves of t he water caniage it was considerably cheaper.

496. Do you know a nything as to the quality of t he Oodla vVirra ore ?--It contnins about 50 to 54 per cent. of malleable iron, a nd about 7 to 10 per cent. of silica. 49 7. Then i t is not of such good quality the ore obt.ained from the hon Knob ?--No.

Generall y sp!laking, the iron ore in South Australia contains about 50 per cent. of m

499. Do you consider that t he South Austmlian iron resources bas-e been fully explored yet?­ No ; nothing like it. 500. The two mines you have men tioned are the chief iron deposits in Sout h Austmlia, but I suppose there a re Y es, there are others, which Mr. Brown has seen, and of which he has spoken very highly; such as Mount J agged. I have seen a very large number of deposits t hroughout the vVilliamstown and Angaston districts.

501. vVhere is Williamstown ?-About 25 or 30 miles from Adelaide. A ngaston would be a little further away. The iron lodes in t hese localities range from 3 to 15 fe et in width. 502. Are they being worked?- Y es; some of t hem are being worked in order to supply flux for t he Block 14 smelters at P ort Adelaide.

503. vVhat was t he l\Iount mine ?-That is a gold mine.

504. Can you tell us any more regarding the important iron deposits of South ?-Ab?ut eighteen months ago I was at Franklin Harbor, and I casuall y inspected t he deposits t here m connexwn with the discharge of ·my other duties. They are situated at from 3 to 7 miles from the coast,

and I think t hey would prove very important if t hey were opened up. The people who held t hem_ were at the time simply taking a few tons of ironstone here and t here and sending it away to Port Pu·1e for use a5 flux. . The same remarks apply t o t he iron deposits P ort Lincoln, wh1 ch al:so contam a

considerable amount

505. There are some large manganese deposits at Port Lincoln ?-Y es, but I could not specify them. The iron leases were taken up by poor men who were using their t eams to C[ll't the ore away tv the port, and were shipping it to P ort Pirie. . ,

506. By Jlb-. Fttller.- Are Franklin Harbor a nd Port Lmcoln good harbors 1-Yes. Port Lincoln is a magnificent harbor. . . _ . . . ,,

507. By the Chairman .- Have you told us all you know about.the pnnc1palJron depos1ts 1r: Sout h Australia or would you like to add anythinO' ?-I should like to men bon some of the places at >dlJ Ch our principal 'iron mine'l are situated. The Oo 0

dla '\Virnt mine I have already desc ribeJ. There are also

deposits at Wirrabee, Gladstone, and also the mines in the 'Willi amstown district. The Fn:ud

509. The one chiefly developed is t h e Iron Knob, the ore froru which is being used for fluxing Yes. .

510. Do you know if :my attempt has been made at iron Rmelting in Australm ?-Y.es . . An :tttempt was made at smelting ironstone at Mount Jagged, but t hat m vhe only case Wlth m my knowledge. I have a report here upon t hat matter which is derived from the ofricial reco rds of the Department.

W. H. Matthews, 2Hh l!J O:Z. 26

511. Putting it gencmlly, are you of opinion that the of iron co uld be successf ully

tmdcrtaken in South Australia 1-I think so, wi t h sli gh t assistance from the State until it was fairly sb.uted. 512. !f!J Air. Joseph would you get your coal from ?-Probably that would haYe to

collle from New South The iron ore cu

is aut .su itecl for making coke. It is useful foi' firing and for raising steam. We have a seam at Leigh's Creek feet thick.

515. I believe that scnm i;; of gl'eaL clcp Lh ?--The shaft at the mine extends to a depth of 200 feet, and the eomp

517. Did they strike

which is now being obtained. I have insp ected the mine down to the extent of the present

working.;,

I s i t too young by a few million yea.rs ?-Yes. '.!.'he

5] 9. Are they using this coal in Adelaide to any great extent now ?-No. They would use it, but owing to the long railwtty carriage, the price approa,clJ PS so closely to that of Newcastle coal, that people prefer to use the latter commodity. The Leigh's Creek coal makes more ash t han does the Newcastle product, but it maintains a lovely fire, and it was used in t he furnaces at t he mine with very auvan­ tagoo us result s.

520. How far is Creek from Port Augusta ?-I should think a,bout 170 miles. 521 . Wo ul d there b e any particular advantage or disadvant

mentioned, that of Oodla Wirm is situated furt.hest from a port . A ll t he rest are within reasonable· distance of the coast. 623. And they are connected by mil with the capital ?--Xot t hose on the coast, b ut you would not rcquit·e milways to connect them with Adelaide, so long as good ports were within easy reach.

52J. By lif1·. Jo seph Cook-I take it t hat you hnve not made a scientific analysis of the iron ores of which you have spoken ?--No, I have not. You must bea.r in mind t hat it was only last Friday t hat we recei vee! notice to appear before the committee. Had I known tlwee or four weeks ago t hat I should be called upon t o give evidence, I have visited t he Iron Knob so that I could have ve rified t he

information which I have given you, although I know that it is correct. 525. Do you know of any extensive tests t hat have been made in order to ascertain the qualities of the iron obtained from any of these deposits ?--No, none whatever. But I haYe no hesitation in Sctying that there are millions and mi llions of tons of ore in the deposits I have mentioned.

526. Yoi.1 SfLY t hat at one time smelting was carried on at Mount Jagged on a small sc·:tle, and it appears by the report.s that in their operations charcoal, which cost £2 per ton, was used. Have you any idea. how charcoal at £2 per ton wou lci compare wi th coal, at 5s. or 6s. per ton ?-I should say that one ton of coal would be worth two tons of charcoal for smel ting purposes. I should not think there ·would be any comparison. You remember, however, that we have to pay for coal in South

Austmlia something like 35s. per ton, as against 6s. per ton in Sydney. 527. Then what prospect do you think t here ·is of successfully establishing iron smelting works in South Australia with coal at 35s. per ton as compared with New South Wales wh ere coal is worth only from 5s. to 6s. per ton. You said t hat you though t the smelting of iron could be established with a

little assistaHce from t.he Governmen t ?-I do not profess to be a smelter, and I should prefer not to express any opinion with regnrcl to tho cost of pr-oducing iron. 528. By j)f1-. Kinuan.- In reference to your Htatement wi th regard to bringing coal from New South \Vales, I should like to know whether you would think it would be cheaper to bring the coal to the ore, or the ore to the coal ?-T think it wuu ld be cheaper to bring the coal to the iron ore-that is, supposing we conveyed the iron ore from say Oodl

529. By .Ah-. Fuller.-Which coal would you use ?-New So uth vVales coal. I may mention that we have irnmense quantities of limestone in South Australia. 530. B.'J lib·. Joseph Cook--vVould t,hose be in close proximi ty Lo t he iron ?-Yes, :;ome of them, more especially in t he Franklin Harbor and Port J_,incoln districts.

531. By fl.h. Ftdler. - Have you made an examination of t he limes tone deposits, with a view to ascertaining their extent ?-No, I am speaking generally, and I may sny that they are unlimited. Yorke's Peninsul a is composed almost entirely of limesto ne, and you can drive for miles and miles over masses of that material.

532. /Jy 1 111- . Joseph Cook. - Is it of good qmtlity ?- Yes. 53:3. By Jib·. Fnlle1·.-In regard to t he iron deposits of which you have spoken, do you know if any ttnalyscs have been made by the Government officials ?-No. I asked t he manager of the Port Pirie smelting works to giYe me the average of t'ne ana .yses of t he iron ores obtained from different parts of the State prior to t he commencement of operations at the Iron Knob, and h e replied by telegram stating that they contain ·

534. To what deposits would that refer ?-To deposits all over t he State. Prior to the commence­ ment of operations at the Iron Knob the Broken Hi!J Proprietai·y Company obtained iron ore wherever hey could get it. Every one knew t heir price, and t hey would purchase as much ore as co uld be

1453

27 \V, H. Utttthews, September, 1902

53:), JJy ,Jh. L . E . G?'UO /lt. - vVImt p ri ce diJ Lbey give 1-Frum to l-b. per ton, delive red at t l:e work:; . Some of the ore had to Le canied fu r long At Frauklin l-brbor and Port

Lutcolu It had to be conveyed for mil es ill drays, n.ml shipped in f\mall vessels to Port Pirie. !'i36. you sn.y anythiug as to the price paid fo r the ore at the deposits ?-It would not be

more tha,n from :2s. Gd. to 3s. per ton. 537. That wo uld be its price quarried and put. into the clmys ?- Yes. 5:38. Assuming that iron-s melting works wvn..: on the eastern coast of A ustmli;t,

would the various deposits you h tmli:t Le within easv dist

t hat the cost of quarry ing or 1·aisin g the ore wuu:d be

be in volved in the case of our ?-The Oo(ll n 'yed by mil fu r •• di,tanl'c uf 120 mil es, but in the Port Lincoln

5-10. By thr; Chai1·man.--Then there i;; the Iron Knob, which is within -lO mil es of < L port?-Yes. 5-11. By "lb-. L . B. Groom.--Are t hese the ouly mi11 cs you thi1tk ,,.e could drnw upo11 in the event of smelting works being established in New E:o uth ·wales ·?- -No. 1 thi11k that supplies woul(l he avnil able at ::'11ount Jagged, and at several other places close to Port Elliot and Victor Harbor.

5-U . You say you have not made mty proper geological l> urvey of the mines you Jta,-e mentioned? -No. 5-!3 . And yet you say that t here are so me millions of tons of oro available for in South

Austral ia or outside of it ?-Yo·, J am qu ite certain of i t . 5-!.t. Do you know if any of tl1eso ores htwe been tested with a vie w to their sui tability fo t· steel m

paid t hat attention to our iron deposits that we probably should htt\'e done. Some tests nmy have been made of which I am not aware. 545. By the Chainnan.-The supply of limestone in South Australia practictdly unlimited?­ Y es.

5-16 . Yorke's Peninsul a is a great place for it and t ho count1·y which li es between

Fmnklin H arbor and P ort Lincoln. I suppose that fully a third of di:;ta.nce you have to drive over nothing but rough limestone. In all parts of the State we have large deposits of limestone. 'l'hc Angaston and Gawler districts are very plentifully supplied with it. .

54 7. By Jlb-. Fulta.-You acknowledge t hat in connex ion with the cost of smelting iron yo u are not an expert and that you know little or nothing about I Yery much prefer not to give

evidence on that point. 548. You made t he statement that if a little assistance were given, you saw no reason why the iron industry should not he successfully established in South A nstmlitL. How could you speak upon that point unless you were an expert ?- -I have calculated it out to my own satisfaction, although por'libly yo u might not agree with my deductions. I do not consider myself wfliciently an expert to renrler it desirable that my opinion should he published.

Harper Twelvetrees, Government Geologist and Chief Inspector of l\I.ines in

Tasmania, examined.

5-!9 . By the Chai1'man. - How long have you occupied youi· present position ?-About three 550. And I suppose th­ mania I have b een twelve years in that Sta.te.

Tasmania 1-Y C:5, I am at I haYe uot yet completed

55 1. \Vhat we desire is information co ncerning the iron resou1·ces of present eng;tged in an examination of the various iron deposits in t hat State. the work, but I know the Blythe River deposit , which is the principal one. 552. That is the principal one with which you are acqua,intecl that is t he largrst deposit in Tasmania t hat I know of.

553. ·where is it situated ?-On the Blythe River, ncar Bumie. 55±. H ow many miles is it from Bumie ?-About 11 miles . 555. I s t here good depth of water at Burnie ?-Oh, yes. There is suffic ient to Jloat in ln.rge steamers of I should say fully l, 700 to 2,000 tons.

556. Could such a vessel O'et aloncrside t.he wharf ?-Y es, at the end of the wharf. 557. By :If?· . Joseph where the ore wo uld have to be shipped if it were sent to

N ew South \Vales?-Yes, I do not know the precise point at which the shipment ,,·ould take placr, Lut it would probably he inside the the stone jetty which built in to the sen .

558. And you say miles from. the mme Is the nearest polllt. at wluch t he sh 1pn;e nt of ure · co ul d take place ?-Yes, a tramway would have t o be constructed _for ." distance of G} mile;; o connect with the existing railwn.y line, which would coYer the other fhe mtlc:; mto Bm·mc. 559. By the C:hetinnetn. -- Coulcl you giYe us particu lar:; as to tho extent n_ nd Yaluc of '!1C my the

River mine is a deposi t of ore which bas been cut through Ly the Blythe R1ve1·. 560. H ave you made any report upon it 1-Yc:;; I lmYe it here. It was wri tteH on the 30tlt J anuary, 1901- [Repo?'t pr-od1wed.l 561. This repo rt contains t he rcsull;; of your resea,rch es up to tltat dcL to ?-Yes.

,V, H. September, lOOt. 28

562. H ave you maue any further examinat ion in tl1e meantime?- Jo. 563. Then this report will give us all the information at your di,;posal up to the present ?-Yes. N othing has been done since that report wa s written subsequent to Mr. Darby's viHit. 56 4. H ave you anything to add to the report 1-No.

565. JJy J1h. L . t:. Groom - Does i t contain analyses of the ote ?.....,.Y es. fi66. By Jlr. J!cmJe1·.-The inquiries you arc now making r ela.te to new fi elds?-Y es . 56 7. By the Cluti 1'1nan.-I-la ve you sa,tisfied yourself as to the possi bility of the successfu l e3 tablishment of t he iron iiHILJ stry iu Australin, so far as ou r natmal reso urces are concerned ?-I think

th:tt t he Blythe Jti ver ore is of Yery desirabl e pu rity, and that it exist s in sufficient quantities to supply OUL' requ irem ents for i ron m:tHufactures for m;my yenrs. From the water level upwards, it is est imated

t hat the d8po>it con ta ius from 17,000,000 to 23,000, 000 tous of marketable ore. I adopt 17,000,000 tons as the lowe: ->t e,; timate, :tnd 23,000,000 Lons a fair maxi mum. There is every reason to belie,·e that t he s upplies of ore will extend to an indcfi11ite depth below the watd level. 5G8. By Mr. yo u made au es timate of the quantity ?-Y es; yo u will find it

given ill t he rcpOL't. 569. By the Ch:til·nutlt. - \Yhat i3 the average quality of the ore ?- 1t chiefly reel hematite. ;} /0. And what t l10 percentage of metallic iron 1-F,. om 60 to 64 per cent . It ough t to

average so mething more thnn GO p er cent. There should b :J no difficu lty in maintaining such an avera.ge. 571. \Vou lcl there be 17 ,000,000 up to t hat Instead of estimating the

quantity available at 34,000,000 ton;;, I have tn,k en 17,000,000 tons as t he quanti ty, and ha ve allowed for wnste and silicious rock. The avemge metallic iron coutcnts of the ore prouu ced in the mine should b e br tween GO and 6+ p er cent., but it impossible, unless extensive works a re carried on, to average the ore to a unit.

57 2. How arc you situatvd fo1· of limestone ?- I do not kne w cx:tctly where they would

obtain the li mestone, but I Hhould think the 11earest woul d be at the L even H.ivel'. T he from

B urnie to the mouth of t he Leven H.ive r would be about 12 miles, and the deposi t is situated about 5 or 6 miles up the ri ve r. There is another of limestone near Devouport.

Putting it broadly, clo you think t hat a sufficient quantity of limestone is readily available

near the Blythe Tti ve r iron mine?- I think they would be able to procure pleuty of limestone. 574. lfy il/1·. .F1tller. - H ave yo u examined the limes tone deposits yourlSelf 1-Yes, T here is plenty of limestone, but there might be some difficulty in deciding within wha,t radius it could be obtained.

575. Have you exa mined the deposits with a view to a;;certaining their extent ?-No. 576. Ry the U!winnan.- l!ow would yo u mauagc a bout coal ?-That would have to be imported. 577. lly Jlfr. J oseph Cook--Or t he orcs would have to be taken to t he cmtl ?-Yes. 578. By the \ Vhich course would you fa Your ?- I fa vo ur the conveying of the iron to

the coal. That found to be the best plan in most parts of the world. 579. You hav.e give n full considemtion to t hat point?- J am perfeetly satisfied in my own mind; unless .there are some conditions of whi ch I a m ignoraut. 580. Do you contemplate that t he iron ore should be t<"tken to some other part of Tasmania, or to some other State, in order to obtain coal ?-To so me other State.

58 1. By .ilb-. li!Jctuge1·. - You have no coal in Tasmania of a character suitable for iron smelt ing p urposes ?-No, not coking coal. It has never entered my mind to 0onside1· the question of taking t he coal to the iron. 'l'hat seems to me to be ou t of the qu estion. 582, By the Chainnan.-As to the assays of which you give the res ults in your report; were

t hey ma,de by yourself, or under your supervision ?-The samples were taken by me, but t he analyses were made by the Tasmanian Government analyst, J'lh. Ward. 583. I s there any other iron deposit in Ta smania wh ich approaches that at the Blythe River as regards the possibilitie:o of successful development ?-There is the field wh ich I am now examining near Beaconsfield.

584. How f:ctr is t hat fro m a seaport ?- A bout 6 miles. There is a g roup of deposits wi th in about 6 or 7 mil es of the port. 585 . By _ 1f1·. J oseph Coole. - ·w hat do you call t hem ?-They are called t he A nderson's Creek mines. 586. By the Chai1·man. - Those are t he su bj ec t of investigation by yo u at present?- Yes.

58 7. As regards t he Blythe H.iver deposit, do you t hink that you have made n,ll the i nquiries necessary to enable yo u to express a final opinion on the subject?- I sh all cer tainly take another opportunity of Yisiting t hat deposit in conj unction with my present investigations; but I do not an tici­ pate that there will be anything fresh to report. The only thing I wish to satisfy myself about is the origin of the u<>posit. \Ve have no reason to suppcso that it wi ll go down into sulphide lodes, as there are no sulphides in it; but so many of t he other deposit.s of iron in Tasmania arc connected with eruptions or of eruptive rock, notably granite, that it is curious that this should be an excep­

t ion. There is no eruptive rock nearer than the mouth of t he Blythe R iver. 588. As to the other mines which are unl:er examination, are you yet in a position to express an opinion as to t heir pro:·pects ?- That would b e a very difficult question. There is a gt·oup of mines in the Beaconsfield Jistrict near Anderso n's Cree k, whd1 I shonld say would contain not more t han 5,000,000 tons, and perhaps not, less than 3, 000,000 t ons of iron ore. Some of th is ore is contaminated with clirome. In 1875 t hey were wo rk ed by a co mp n,ny which did not succeed in producing soft grey pig n1· anY pig of unifurm qu a li ty, a nd t he preilence of the chrome finally caused them to shut do wn.

5t>!:J. But these particular a rc unde 1· your nuLi0e at present with a view to enable you to fo rm a decided opin ion?- 590 . . ·\.n cl do you feel justified at present in an opini on to the probability of their

suc cess or othcrwisr ?- I am in corre. ->pomlencc with gcu Llemen in Enghtncl nt present regarding that l do no t know of any simila r ore hn,v ing been worked ;; uccessfu lly in any part of the world.

'J'b cre arc ::;im ilnr deposits in New Caledonia, but they arC' left unworked.

29

1455

W. H. Twelvetrees, 24th September, 1902.

59 1. By ilh. TVatson.-Does the chrome constitute theonl v difficult factod - Yes. There is from 3 to 9 per cent. of chrome, but the wiLy out of t he difficulty at present seems to be to blend t hese

ores with others. One feature of group of i;; t ha t some of the orcs do not contain chrome,

a nd these migh t be useful for blcndi1rg with t he chrome orcs so as to <..lrown out the objcctionuble clement. 592. By the Chainnan.- 'l'he re ure other deposits besides those you mcntione <.J ?- Yes, but most of them are too fa r inhud to be of any usc at prest'nt. Th ere a deposit of close to

Zeehan, rmd there is a huge deposit on the Meredi t h Hiver, which is suitl to be the lurgcst in t he State. It is, however, assoc:iated with ;;u l phiJes. I could not tell you t he extent of de]Josit. Then there is the Beaconsfield group, the Penguin mine:;, and an intermediate deposit on t he lliver Don. They are now taking ironfrorn the Penguin deposit for fluxing purposes at Cockle Creek.

593. You attnch the grcn,te;;t importance to the Northern mines?- Yes; to the Blythe P-ivot· first;· the P enguin, subsidiary to the Blythe H.iYer, < tnd the Beaconsfield group. The other deposits are not so favorab ly situated. G9·1. I take it that T::u;mania is not yet fully t>xplored so far as its mineral resources are

conce rn ed ?-No. · I will leave wit h the committee so me lllaps which I ha1·c b·ough t wit h me, und which may be of some assistance. 595. Have you •tny acquaintance with the i ron resources of t he other Shttcs ?--'\o. 596. Have you anything you would like t o t ell us, apart from what is contained in ycur report,

with regard to the possibilities of utilizing the Tannanian iron orcs ?-- I think my rrport is

very complete. I may say t ha t I have been looking up the history of the Beacomdleld deposits. I find that the firbt iron ore was from tlr c wes t arm, in 1805, Ly Colonel Paterson, who

shipped it to New South \Yales in the J,ady .Nelson on her return voyage after bringing stores from Port Jackson. H e took with him sevet·al tons of this ore. These ores were reported on by M t·.

Charles Gould, t he 'l'asnmnia n geologist, in 1 eGG , and examined in 187:3 Ly M t·. Just, who induced Melbourne capitalists to float the Tasmn,man Charcoal Jrcn Company, with a capital of £80,000. They began to smelt ores on a small scale, mabng charcoal iron by the direct 'l'Ley built works and

a jetty, to enable them to cany on their Tl: e dircetors were led to adopt a new furnace

in vented by a Mr. Harriso n, in which gas was to be m;ed for the reduction of the ore, and t he first stone of this new funmcc wa;; bid in 1872. lt proved tL fu il m e, although it was construct ed under the vision of the inY entol'. The company spent .£10,000 or £ 12,000 in preliminary work, and then the concern was fl oated

Don. T hey made about 2:30 or 250 tons.of pig weekly, an.d they sold a good deal of it in Mt'lbourne at .£6 lOs. per tou. ·when the first samples of ore were analysed, on ly _ small quantities of chrome were noticed. One analysis gave a trace only, another l per cent., and another 1-,t- per cent. ; but when the furnaces got thoroughly to work they found that the ore contr,ined as high as from 2 to l 0 per cent. of

chrom ':l. A considerable quantity of the chrome pig was used for making £hees for > :h :. mpers. 'lbe com pany made a small quantity of soft grey iron " -hich they sold in Melbourne at .£5 Gs. pe1· ton, and the experts to that city continued regularly tmtil time in 1877, alt hough the quality cf the product was very irregular, much of it being too white ar: d hard. At tlre beginning of August the company lra d 4,000 or 5,000 tons of this pig awaiting ''hipment and they could not find a market for it. They had to admit the of fi nding a mark et for this iron outside Australia, a1'd in the end they resolved to

suspend operations for an indefinite period. ExFeriments made in England were unfavorable to the chrome iron. There is other iron in the neighbourhood which is devoid of chrome. Although both classes of iron are derived from the same source they traverse different kinds of reeks-the cbnn:e is derived from the serpentine rock. It is very difficult to form an estimate of the quantity of the chrome iron

deposits, becauHe a good deal of it is mixed with clay and rock, so that when you se e a hill with ore at t he bottom and ore a t the top yo u cannot say whether it continu es right through. StiJl, I should think there would be between 1,000,000 and 2,000,000 t ons. Another deposit in the san;c was worked in 1875 by the Tama r -Hematite I ron Company, wh ich made wmc 600 tons of good pig which was stated by t hose who used i t in Melbourne Lo be superior to the ordinary Scotch pi g. Some of Ori s iron was se r:t to Glasgow. Two hundred tons of it were sold at .£6 7s. 6d., and the report on that prcel wa s that .1t was of good quality but rat her rough . It was estimated that pig iron could be prcdu ccd tmd landed m London at from .£4 to £4 lOs. per ton .

597. By Jlf.r . TVaison. - Why did they d ose down ?-I bclieYe the real reason was that the works were on too small a scale to pro\'e _

598. By llf?-. 1Jfange1·.- vVas any Government aid granted to the company ?-l\ o. l t :ms a purely private en terprise . I n l t)75 the manager, l'l'[r. Swift, aunounced the temporary of t hese

wo rks, tmd stated that they had fulfilled t heir design, which to test the quality of the ,ore, and that it was intended to reconstruct the co mpany upon a larger basts and t>xtend opcratrom. Shortly wards, however, he died, and t hat put an end to the whole thmg. . _

599. JJy Jib ·. Watwn.-Dicl t he company obtain thC'ir coal from New South \Vales ?-No. They used cha rcoal. GOO. Ry 1lh. Jlfcmyer .-J-rn,ye you any idea of Lhc number of men they em ployed ?-No. The

from which I

601. By Jh. Ji'1dle1 ·. - Have you any idC'a of t he pt·ice they pai rl for their chan ;oal but I

t hink it should not be any greater tlmn Umt, now ruling. " . . .

602. \ Vhat is the present price of d ra ;·ccrr11-A t LCc han the [> l'l CC' rmJ I S per GO!b . bag There is another dC'posit in the l3raconsficlcl di striet which was worked fur so n;e tim C' b\· \.he Ilfracc mbe I ron Co. They started operations on a cl cpo;;it 7 1 .1.1i lcs from the water's edge. 'l'h ey e:·ccted Llast furnaces, but I neve r heard that t hey produced any 1ron. It 1s stated that t hey bad an mcompetent manager, who allowed tho fu rnaces to become choked, and the whole enterprise fail ed . Mr. Gou ld

,V, H. Twelvetrees, 24th September, JOOi. :30

estimated t lmt in t hat deposit there was, above the water level, 350,000 tons of rich ore containing f rom !'55 to 60 per cent of metallic i1·on. There is another la rge deposit next to t his callert Barnes' paddock.

This, T think, is t he lnrgest of the whol e of tha,t group, but I have not yet examined it. 60;3. lJy .lfr. Watson.- Can you say whet her those deposits arc held as freeholds, or under lease from the Go,·cnnnent ?-Sonw of them are freeholds,

G05. lJ y the

Anderson's Creek

1mder lease, hu t tho company may ha ve made further purclwscs recently. The deposit s at P enguin are partly freehold , and that which iH noiv being worked is on private property. 607 . Ry the C'hai 1·man.- I s t he Blythe H.i ver leasehold held under mining Y es, under

the Mining Act. The leases cannot be held indE'fini tely, but they ttro subject to t he working cond i tions of the Mining Act, although protection can he obtained. 608. Th en a good many effo rts have been made to establish t he iron industry in 'l.'asmania, but they have not been attended with any great success?- Yes. The three efforts I have mentioned have been made, and I believe thnt in the old da,y;; there was a furnace ncar Hobart.

609. I s there an iron mine down t here is so me iron ore on t he east side of the Derwent.

GlO . B ut knowing what you do, are you very sanguine as to the success t hat would attend an effort to establish the iron industry in 'l.'asmania ?-I am very sanguine with regard to the Blythe l-tivcr deposits, and I am hopeful that we shall be able to do so mething with tl1ose at Beaconsfie ld . 611. You are of opinion that 'l.'asmania pos'lesses large dep oc; its of ore .which arc cap:tble of being worked at a. profit under favorable conditions ?-Yes. I think we co uld put t he 13lythe Hiver ore into the ships at Burnie at a cost of about 4s. per ton.

612. Is that likely to be done t Government aid ?-That is a question for the capitalists to consider. 613. By ;1fr-. Fnllm·.- You t hink that the capitalists will not undertake t he wo rk without Government aid ?-I think it is a case in wh ich Government aid might be very properly extended.

614. By the Uhai1·man.--You. think t hnt the Blythe Hiver ore could be plnced on board ship at a cost of a bout 4s. per ton ?-Y es, t he expense might be still lower. 615. That wou ld be the cost of mining and sh ippi ng, and wo uld not allow for any profit or royalty to tho owners of t he ore ?-Yes.

616. By ;1!1·. L. E. G'1 ·oom.-In Mr. Jaquet's evidence, h e said he had received information from official sources witl: respect to the iron ores of Tasmania, and he referred in his report to t he siliceous contents, ranging from 1·6 to 34·2 per cent. H e said that t hat statement, however, did not contain very definite information. Can you tell us more definitely the extent to which silica prevails in your ores?­ '!.' he case in which the silica contents were given at 34·2 was exceptional, and in my repor t I explain that- " The only instance in which I think I may have included too high a proportion of siliceo us matter is the stone from the upper tunnel. Si liceous ore is only met wit h lo cally in that adit, and has, I think, augmented the average silic>t contents unduly."

G 17 . Do yo u think tha t. the average siliceous contents· of the Blythe R iver ore is below t hat which would render it too impure for the purposes of manuf>tcturing steel and i ron ?-I do not t hink that the silica contents of the Blythe Hiver ore would interfere with its suitability for manufacturing purposes. There are, of course, very siliceous ores, but I do not consider 9 per cent. too high.

6 18. lVIr. Jaquet says t he great majority of iron or es contain from 3 to 15 per cent. of silica. These a re ores that are used for commercial purpose3. vVo uld you ngree with Yes. Gl9. Have you any knowl edge regarding t he methods employed in t he production of steel I have no knowledge of steel making.

620. H ave you any knowledge of the value of iron ores containing phosphorus ?-The average contents of the Cumberland ore is 0·2 per cent. In t he Uni ted St ntes the presence of 0·01

per cent. phosphorus to one unit of iron used to be allowable, but now ores arc not accepted as Bessemer ores if they contain more than 0·007 5 per cent. G2l. Can yo u t ell us whether ores containing a high percentage of phosphorus can be used for i ron manufacture by modern processes ?-Yes, if t he basic process is employed, which eliminates t he impurities. The basic process, with iron low in C'1rbon, g ives a good mild steel. The Blythe Hiver ore is suitable for the acid p ro cess, because the phosphor ic contents do not exceed 0 ·04. At one point, namely,

the Purple Cliffs, on the south side of the ri vcr, the phosphoric contents of the ore are greater, amounting to 0·09 per cent., and I should recommend t hat f urther samples should be t aken f rom t hat poin t to see whether that high percentage is only exceptional. 622. You consider t hat the Blythe Hiver ore is rich ?- Yes.

623. Mr. Jaquet refers to 50 t o 70 per cent. of iron being contained in rich ores ?-The Blythe River ores are rich hematite ores. Magnetite deposits could carry a higher percentage, and Mr. J aquet may ave included those in his statement. There is a deposit of magnetite on t he west coast of Tasmania. 624. H ave you compared the Blythe River ores with t hose obtained from t he Lake S uperior mines ?- I do not remember whether I did so in my report. I believe the Lake Superior ores cal'ry about 60 per cent. of metallic iron.

62.5 . Do you think the Blythe Rivr:r ores compare with the average ores now being used for manufacturing at P ittsburg in the United States ?-Yes, I t hink so . B ut perhaps a closer parallel would be afforded by the hematite ores of Cumberland. 626. Do you t hink that on t he whole steel manufact ured f rom tho ore produced at Blythe Itiver would compare wit h the American steel manufactured at P ittsburg from t he oro obtained at Lake Superior '!-On the whole I sh ould so; I do not see any reason why i t sh ould n ot. Of co urse t hey have special vat·ieties of ore t here which are very low in phosphorus, to which ours wo ulJ be i nferior. The contents of tl10 Lake Superior ores vary from 0 ·007 to 0·079.

31

1451

W. H. Twe\vett·ees, September, lnOi.

G27. On the whole, however, you think that a good marketable nrticle could be pt·oducC'rl. from the Blythe River ore ?-I do uot t hink we need fear co mparison with any part of thE' world far as our iron re;:;otu·ces are concerned. ·

628. Have you considered the Bilbao in Spain, and the steel mannfactu reel from them

at Middlosbrough do not why we shoulil not compare with them. The pho;;plwrus contents of t he ore ol.Jt

-No. Ha.ve you considered the requirements of the market :v-; rcga.rd;; iron ;mel steel 7

630. Do you think you cn.n definitely S

G3 1. Mr. J aquet says t hat he considers that t.he N cw f.Jouth Wales ore would compare with t hat used at Pittsburg. Do you

G33 . I understand t hat the best steel produced from Bilba.o orcH 1--Y but Lhat is tv

be obtained in limited quantities now, and the supply will soon come to an end. ·

63 11. H ave you considered the Australian dcma.nd for iron ?-No; but I. know that last year the imports of iron mn,nufactures into TtLsmania were valued a.t .£375,000. 635. Coyhlan estima.tes that in 1898 470,000 tons of iron in pig and in a maHufacturc

sufficient demand. t-36. You a re satisfied as regards the extent of our deposits. Mr. J a.quet estim:1.tcs t.hat we ha,Ye sufficient iron ore to ln.st us for at least a, century think the iron obtain:tble :1t Blythe Hi1·cr would be suffic ient to meet all the dema.nds in A ustralia for the next GO years.

637. Ass uming that we man ufacture everything we require here, the demand for iron would amou nt to 4 70,000 tons per annum . Allowing fo r a. reasonable increase in consumption, do you Lh ink there is a .sufficient quantity of ore at Blythe R iver· to supply the needs of Australia for GO years?-Y cs. \Ve have 25,000,000 tons there, and I think it is safe to a.ssumc tha.t it will go down.

638. What do you think would be n. fair estimate to make ?-It would last for at least 50 years. 639. By Jlh. Why do you say that you can safely assume that the ore will go down?­

Because it seems to be interbedded with the slatei'J and sandstones. These shLtes and sandstones go down, because they are part of gign.ntic fold s, and the iron will go down with them. It is not in the form of a lode which will pinch. 640. \ Vith regard to some of our deposits we are told that they arc merely surface shO\Ys, and

will soon work out; but I understand that you are satisfied that the Blythe deposit will continue down ?-Yes. 64 1. You have not tested it at all, but as a gcologiBt you think it is li kely that tbe iron will con­ t inue down below the wa.ter level ?-Yes.

G42. By Mr. Watson .-Do you think the character of the ore is likely to alted-N o. 643 . In some cases the i ron runs into sulphides ?-Yes. And if I had found any traces of sulphides in the ore n.t Blythe River, I might have been afra.id tha.t tha.t would happen there. 644. Has any work been done below the water level ?-No.

645. Uy Jl[r. Joseph Cook .- 'What have they done at Blythe River ?-They haYe worked from the level of the river into the face of t he h ill, which rises to a height of from 500 to 700 feet. 646. By Jlh. Fuller.- You say that you are sanguine as to the possibilities of the Blythe River, and you also tell us th:tt ore can be placed on board ship at 4s. t on. You further agree thn.t the

ore shou ld be canied to t he coal 647. I presume that yom· knowledge as a geologist is not confined to Tasmania , and, from 11 geological point of view, in regard to the poRition of the iron depo:;its and the where wo uld you say the iron could be most successfully esbblishcd ?-I do not t lnnk tha.t JS

qui te a fair qu estion. . .

G4 8. 'rhat is a. very plain question. \Ve have our coal-fields and our 1ron depos1ts. The coal deposits must not be very far from the iron deposits 7-No. . . .

649 . Ta.king the relative geological position of our coa.l-ficld fl and our 1ron depos1ts, wh1ch be the best place to est:tblish works for the development of our iron beds ?-I am not aC<]Ullmted w1th the iron beds of Australia. 650. Do I understand tha.t your knowledge of the iron beds of the Commonll'ealth is confined to

'l'asmania ?-Yes. I understand nothing beyond that which rcla.tcs to Tasmania. G51. Are you acquainted with the sea-board of New South 662. I presume you know the situation of Bull.i ?-1Ju3. And tha.t you know that there arc extensJYO con.l-fields t.hel'e 7-Yes: . .

G54. A re you aware that, as coke-making coal, that obtamed :tt l3ulh 1s the bf'st fo1· purposes in the world ?-Yes. 1 believe i t is better than the coal. . . ,

G55. Do you know anything about the coal depos1ts at L1thgow, about 1.30 mllcs from Sydnf'y, on the W estern railway line ?-No. . . .

. 656. ComparinO' Litho·ow and the Illawn,tTn. dtstnct as places smtable 1.01' the manufacture of iron from the Blythe River which do you thi11k would be the best ?-:-I.t stands to rca8on so f:tJ' as coal is concerned Bulli beincr ou the sea-coast, would occupy a pos1t10n of greater ad,·anbtgc than wou ld Litho-ow i30 miles inln.nd ; but I do not think that is < Jui te n faie ([Ues tion to ask me:.

G57 'was careful to put it as from a geological point uf Yiew ?-1'11(' nearer you cn.n briii•r the uoa.l to the iron ore, or vice ve1'S(1, the better.

32

(Taken at M elbou1·ne.) THURSDAY, 25TH SEPTEMBER, 1902.

Jfembm·s present :

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGS TON in the Chair ; ::V1r. Joseph Cook, I Mr. Mauger,

1\fr. l <'uller, Mr. McCay,

Mr. L. E. Groom, Mr. \Vatkins,

Mr. K irwan, I Mr. vVatson.

vVillia m H arper Twelvetreos, further examined.

J'h e JT'itn ess.-I like to amend my evidence of yesterday in respect of the total term

during which the J3ly the RiYor deposits co uld hold out upon the basis of the production of 500,000 tons of metal annually. I said thu.t I thought t hey wou ld continue to supply that quantity for 50 years. That, however, w:ts really an estimate of the quantity of oro available, and not of t he metal contents. The producti,·e Yal ne of t ho deposit in pig iron on a maximum of 25,000,000 t ons, containing GO per

cont. of metal, wou ld be 15,000,000 tom. That wo uld be suffi cient to meet the demand of t he Common­ wealth for 500,000 tons annua!J y for 30 years. These figures are based upon t he Ol'e contents of the deposit down to the rive1· level. If t he deposit is estimnted at 20,000,000 tons, which is a sober estimate, and one which, I think, is understated- especially in view of t he fact that its limits, both in length and breadth, haYe not been ascertained, and t he probable extension of it , have been omitted from the calculation-it would be equal to supplying 500,000 tons of metal annually for 24 years. But what I wish to point out is that I do not t hi nk it is likely that the owners will be able, at any rate, for some ye::Lrs, to transpo rt more than 900 or 1, 000 tons of oro a. day, or 250,000 to 300,000 tons per year. That qtmntity would repre;,;ent 150,000 or 180,000 tons of pig iron . Even this output could only be reached by the rail way transport and tl)e shipping arrangements on the mos t modern lines,

::Lnd after everything had been got into smooth work ing order. At first the transp01·t is likely to be considerably less. · On that sc::Lle of working t he industry could be maintained for 60 ye::Lrs, and if the yea rly expo1tation were le$S the totul t erm would be proportionately prolon ged. I wish to put in some fol'mer reports - one by Mr. Montgomery in 18 94 on the iron ore at the Blythe River, and another by him in 1895 containing mention of t he Penguin iron ore deposits ; likewise a report in 1898 by the late l\h. Harcourt Smith, ·who was t hen Govemrnent geologist of Tasmania, also dealing wit h the P enguin hem atite deposits. ·

----William Jamieson, examined. 658. By the Chainnan.-I t hink t hat you are the Chairman of Directors of t he Blythe R iver Iron Mines Limited ?-Y es. G59. And you have had considerable experience in mining one way and another for a number of yo:trs ?-For abou t twenty years. · 6GO. Have you had under consideration t he Uovernment proposals in connexion with granting a bonus fo r the iron industry?-Yes. 6 61. You have seen the Bill, of course ?-Y es. 662. And you contemplate taking action if possible ?-That is so. 66:3. Have you formed any opinion as to whether you could start the industry if the Bonus Bill we1·e passecl 1-Y es, I have. We have formed a very strong opinion upon the matter in conjunction with people in the old country. 664. What is your opinion ?-That, if tbe Bill were passed, we should be able to create a company which would provide the necessm-y capital for t he development of t he Blythe River deposits, and the erection of machinery and plant. GG5 . Is it in connexion with any particular mine that you have formed that opinion 1-Y es; it is in connexion with the Blythe River iron mine of Tw n expert from Great Britain, who reported upon the whole business. From him we have obtained estimates of the cost, not only of t he erection of works in Tasmania, but ::Llso ::Lt Sydney. 66'7 . Have yo u formed an opinion as to what part of the industry you would conduct in each place e haYe concluded that tho operations must be co nd'Ucted either in Tasmania or N ew South W::Lles. 668. vVou ld you conduct all t he operations in one State1-The opinion is that all the reduction wol'lcs wou ld have to be done in one State. That is to say, if we selec ted New South \Vales the reduction works wou ld haYe to be established t here, but, of course, it entirely depends upon whether it is cheaper to transmit tho coal to the ore or the ore to t he coal. That is determined t o a large extent by locality and t he Slll'rou nding ci rcumstances. Upon tho whole, _ the opinion is t hat N ew South Wales is the bes t St::Lte in which to start t ho industry. 669. ' Vo uld you transport the ore from Tasmania to New South ·wales ?-Y es. 6'7 0. Have you formed any opinion as to the expenditure which would be necessary under the circumstances ?-Yes. Of course, my opinion is based entirely upon the es timate of Mr. Darby, who came out from England specially to report upon this matter. Mr. Darby is a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers, managing director of the "Brymbo" Steel vVorks in England. H e was specially; selected to make t his r·eport by men who we re prepared to invest a large amount of money in t he en ter-prise. G 71. ·w here is M r. Darby at present ?-In England. I have in my possession a det::Liled sta te­ment of all the machinery and plant that would be required to start the industry, and t here is a t::Lbulated stat ement at the end of it, of whi ch I can furnish the committee \\'ith a copy.

33

\V. Jamieson, .25th September, 1902.

672. Of course, we should like as full information as you can possibly give to us upon this matter ; but, at the same time, we recognise that some of your information may be of a private character, wh ich you would prefer not to reveal. Your wishe:; in that connex.ion will be respected. I s the paper which I hold in my hand a summary of the outlay required to start t he industry?- Ye3; but I have here the details of all the different portions oft .e phtnt necessary, and t 11 e cost of e11ch. I may mention that Mr.

Darby's estimate is for a plant that would be as up-to-date as any in the world. G73 . This summary shows a contemplated expenditure of £1, 109,000 that amount

covers all expenditure connected with the starting of works capable of an output of 150,000 tons per annum. I a m in possession, also, 0f t bc details of the proposed method of laying out the mine. The sidings, approaches , and alllo1tding docks at B urnie would cost £26,649 . Specially-constructed steamers, suitable for carrying heavy materird, such as ore and coal, would cost £ 122,000. An amount of £ 45, 137

is set down for wharf and unloading arrangement,; at Sydney. There is a site near Sydney, of which we have acquired the right of purchase, and upon which we have paid a deposit. It was e3timated that the cost of reclaiming it a nd erecting wh ft rves would be about £45,137. 674. By M1·. J oseph Cook.-vVhere is that Upon the Parramatta Ri vc r, opposite R yde.

Coal bins, washery, and coke ovens would cost £ 106,7 96; ore and coke bins, blast furnaces and a uxiliary plant, £ 215,182. I may here mention that Mr. Darby is one of the greatest experts upon coke-making in Great Britain. The cost of the hot metal mixer and open hearth Rteel plant is estimated at £133,172; the mills auxiliary plant at £ 175,934; whilst the general expenses a l'e set down at £57, 706. These

estimates were arrived at after a careful survey of the g round. They certainly ough t to be very correct, as they were obtained from thoroughly good data. Of co urse, in co nnexion with t he proposed co mpany it would be necessary to provide a big work ing capital, a nd accordingly Mr. Darby allows £160,000 for the expenditme of £10,000 a week for four months before he expects the company to derive any return.

The cost of finishing the rail way to the mine is estimated at about £50,000. That es timate was obtained from our ow n eng ineer's report, and the sum mentioned would be sufficient to construct the line and to provide rolling-stock as well. Of course, it is a very close estimate. 675. By the Chctinnan.--You have taken every care to obtain accurate estimates of the ou tlay involved

676. If t he Bonus Bill were passed immediately, have you any d oubt that you could undertake this work ?-I had no t the smallest shadow of a doubt about it a few months ago, but at the present momen t .all I can tell the committee is that the people with whom we were negotiating have not with­ drawn their offer, and, as far as we know from our agent at home, we occupy exactly the same position

to-day as we did previously. Of course, they are naturally dissatisfi ed with the delay that has occ urred. W e led t hem to believe that the Bonus Bill wou ld become law much ear·lier than this. '\Ve had every­ thing in readiness and the money necessary, for the undertaking had been guaranteed in London. 677. By llfro Jo seph Cook. - What is the date of that r eport 1-It is dated 30th F ebruary,

1901. 678. By the Chairman.-Do you attach much import unce t o the bonus course I do . To :some extent it assures any wo rks which may be est.ablished and which produce a good article against initial loss . It must be remembered that the establishm ent of large iron works in a new country is, after all, a very experimental undertaking, and that very often mi8takes a re made which cannot be foreseen.

Mr. Darby at first proposed t hat we should erect furnaces capable of t reating 500 tons per day. In this connexion it is well to remember that it would never do to depend upon one furn ace we to allow. the only which a, mine possessed to run down. T hese furnaces a re very often 80 or 90 feet h1 gh, and are bnck­

lined inside. At any time an accident might happe-:1, and to repair it wo uld cost an immense sum. Very fre'q uently mistakes do occur in the initial 8tages o( 'the operation of big woel:s . . _it has

been the custom all over t he world to grant a bonus and im pose customs duties m connexwn With the crea\ion of the iron industry. 679. B y M1·. Watson .- You say that Mr. Darby suggested . the erection of furnuces capable of treating 500 tons Yes. ·

68 0. Has he since made any other r ecommend

68 1. I notice that the furnaces proposed in your es timate arc capable of treating only 300 tons per day original idea was that we should have furnaces which would be able. to ·treat 500 ton.s daily. Of course, Mr. Darby's report is a very bulky docum ent, :wd I

know it is quite on the cards that he would erect furnaces of that capacity. 682. If no bonus were offered t o encourage the establishment of t his industry, but a duty upon the raw material was imposed in lieu thereof, would that suit you a?1 perfectly. that, as t he

bonus and the d uty are not concurrent, if a d uty were levied upon Iron It wou ld su tt us qmte as well as if we were granted the bonus only. . . '" .

68 3. By Jo :;eph Cook .- vVhat amount of protectiOn .would }"Oll reqmre ... hat .would entirely depend upon the value of the article. 'raking into comideratwn the cla.ss _of work wlnch we shou ld probably get, it is more than likely that the im position of a duty upon Iron from t he start of the E)nterprise would be very nearly as good as. a bonm . . I.n t he bonusand the duty are

and of when we ori"inally entered mto negot1atwns wtth the people m England, we suppJsed t.1at the 'Federal wo uld be

0

very similar to the Canadian tariff. I think upon reflection that we wou ld pi·efer to have the benefit of a duty immedintely than any bonus. . _

684. W hat rate of duty would you reqmre ?-- 'Ve were calcubbng upon b per cent. all

round. 685. vVhat does that mean per cent. ctd va1 . 15 per cent. upon pig iron means so mm.:h, anrl

F. l 050 1. JJ

W. Jamieson, 25th.September, 1902. 34

686. You say that 15 per cent. upon steel rails would satisfy you '!-On that product alone. I£ when we turned out a ton of steel rails we were protected to the extent of 1 fl per cent. we should be perfectly satisfied. To my mind that would be more than equivalent to the bonus. I may tell the Committee that I obtained from the N ew South Wales Government the average price which it had paid for the supply of steel rails for ten years. That price was £5 15s. Gel. per ton, out of which sum they allowed only 12s. 6d. per ton for all charges from London to Australia. Of course no other people upon earth could have obtained it at that figure.

687. Is that the cost from the point of despatch at the port in London 688. 'W hat is the ordinary price of pig iron name "pig'' is an extraordinary one to give to an iron of which there a re so many different kinds. Good brands, however, can be obtained f.o. b. at Glasgow for 50s. per ton. Of course if one is lucky enough to secure freightage in a timber ship which requires to get "stiffening " for Baltic, he can land pig iron in Australia for 2s. or 3s. per ton, but if he is not fortunate in this way he may have to pay 15s. per ton. Not long ag:J the Mount Lyell Company required 150 tong of pig iron for a small foundry. They had to pay 85s. per ton in order to obtain a good brand. That iron was put on board at Glasgow for 56s. per ton, and the freightage

amounted to an additional 13s. 6d. per ton. We purchased it through a broker. That is the usual practice, and that is why pig iron here costs so much to the foundry men. Its price is enhanced by reason of the fact that it is purchased only in small quantities. Throughout the whole of Australia only 30,000 or 40,000 tons of pig iron are consumed annually. A foundry like the Otis Company has established would purchase its pig iron through a broker, because it would require only 30 or 40 tons at a time. It does not pay to keep a stock on hand. The 150 tons w!Jich we purchased the other day had

to be brought out in three different ships. Further, there is a tremendvus difference in the quality of the various classes of pig iron at home. In Australia only a very small quantity of each of the different classes of pig iron is consumed. It is used chiefly in foundries for cast-iron pipes, &c., which can be manufactured locally. But if large works such as those which we contemplate were erected we should always keep a stock of 5,000 or 10,000 tons of pig iron upon hand. The idea that a duty upon this class of iron would injuriously affect our manufacturers is altogether wrong, because we should probably make a contract with every one of them. vVe should visit them and say, "Tell us your yearly

demand, and at a moment's notice we will supply you with any quantity that you may require." That would be a great advantage to them, because the importers of that article cannot keep big stocks upon hand, and as long as we supplied a first-class pig at a reasonable cost there would be an all-round benefit conferred. A s a first· class locally produced pig would be equal to a good average pig at home, our manu­ facturers would probably deal with us if it suited them to do so. Of course it must be understood that I am not speaking from experience. ·

689. By the Chairman.-Have you any doubt of your capacity to produce a good article at a reasonable cost 1- No. vVe gave .Mr. Darby every possible latitude regardless of expense, and he was to satisfy himself as to the prospects of the enterprise and to order anything which he chose in connexion with it. .My statements are based upon his report. He himself is perfectly satisfied. He took some ore to

England, and has no hesitation in declaring that it is a first-class ore containing no deleterious sub­ stances . I can give the Committee the result of the analyses which he made. 690. Hy 1lfT. L. E. Groom.-Does his report deal with the quality of the deposits and the analyses of the Yes. This is what he says about the whole deposit :-

An (IVerage s:1mple over the whole deposit. gives the following complet.e analysis:-Ferric Oxide 86·954 }

Ferrous Oxide 3·074 63·259 per cent. iron

Silica 7 ·312 per cent.

Alumina .. . 1·756

Lime 0·068

Magnesia 0 ·011

Sulphur Trioxide 0·060

Phosphorous Pentoxi de 0·083

"

"

0·024 per cent. sulphur 0·036 phosphorus

" Titanic Acid 0·03

" Copper Trace

Arsenic Trace

Magtwese Trace

Chromium Absent.

Combined W at.e r 0·324 per c.ent.

Moisture 0·160

99•892

691. lly Jlfr. have said a good deal about Mr. Darby. Will you tell me what are

his qualifications 1-He is a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers, a director of large steel works called Brymbo Steel \Vorks, in England, which I noticed, the other day, was about to erect about .£200,000 or £300,000 worth of addition al machinery. He was appointed by our people at home, who are big ironm ,tsters t hemselves. vVe left it to them to select a man in whom they had implicit confidence

to ,·isit tho Bl ythe }{,iver min e and examine the whole deposit. vVe put upon them the onus of finding the man, and we provided the money with which to pay him. His terms were .£3,000, with all expenses paid. His expenses here and in America have totalled £4,000. 692. By JJh·. L. E . Groom.-In that report, does he mention the quantity of ore ava.ilable which averages 63 per cent ?--He says-

In est.imat.ing the probable quan t.ity of ore, I have taken the river bed as the bot.tom, although it is nearly cert.nin to ext.end downward much further, and have measured the width of the deposit. where the sides are well defined. The cubical eo n tents of the deposit., which I have t.hought. it. advisable to reduce by one-half, at. 3 tons per cubic yard, yield 24,500,000 tons.

The filet is that 1\ir. Darby measured the deposit only above the river bed. He said that looking at all the outcrops upon it a very liberal discount was to allow that half the ore was not of a high-class quality The cost of putting it on board ship he estimates at 3s. 6d. per ton.

35

1461

W. Jamieson, t5th September, 1902.

693. By_ ill?-. Ji'uller.-:-At the time Mr. Darby came out to make this report had you any idea Bonus B1ll was to ?e mtroduced 1-No; but when the Commonwealth was established we supposed

that 1t w?uld the by other countries, and initiate a protective policy so as to induce

the creatwn of b1g mdustnes of tl11s character. I may tell the Committee th:.tt some time n,o-o we entered into negotiations with the New South Wales Government for the supply of 100,000 tons of steel raib. As a guar·antee of our bona fides we put up a deposit of £10,000. The negotiations, howe1·e r, failed throuah no fault of our own, but owing to a change of Ministry. "

694. By ill'r. Joseph Cook.-Then you would have started operations in New South 'Vales without the aid of any bonus 1- vVe felt sure that when the Commonwealth was established it would either impose a duty upon iron or else encourage the creation of the iron industry by granting a bonus for the production of that article concurrently with the operation of a duty.

695. But you would have gone on with the enterprise without either ;1 bonus or duty 1-0h, no; we should have forfeited our £10,000. Our action was based upon the · assumption tha t the Common­ wealth would be certain to adopt a protective policy, and we were willing to risk £10,000 in OL'der to get a contract.

696. What was the date of your offer 1-It was about October, 1900, at the time l\fr. Darby was here. 697. By the Chairman.--You would prefer the benefit conferred by a 15 per cent. duty, which was to come into operation immediately, to a bonus 'l--Yes, if the bonus and the duty were not concurrent.

698. If you had the benefit of a protective duty without tLny bonus, would the local price of iron be increased 'l--I do not Lhink so. I have already explained that in regard to the pig iron business there is nothing in it. I do not think that the price of finished articles, such as steel rails, ships' plates, &c., would be increased by the operation of a duty. The States Governments are the chief consumers of steel

rails, and we look to them to enter into big contracts with us at stated prices. 699. "Without any protection, do you consider that you would be subjected to severe competition 1 - There can be no doubt a bout that at all. The freightage rates are nothing in our favour. For

example, if we established ironworks at Sydney, those rates would benefit only that particular port. The freightage from Sydney to Queensland would be heavier than it is from London to Sydney. Of course, if the Que ensland Government entered into a big contract with us it might pay us to charter <;pecial vessels, and thus secure. the advantage of cheaper freights. The local freights, however, are

absolutely against us. 700. By Jf?·. Joseph Cook.-Wl1at is the local freight 1-I£ we regard coal as a low-freight article -which it is- I would point out t hat so long as we make a yearly contract we can get coal carried from Sydney to Tasmania for about 7 s. per ton. It can be shipped to Melbourne for from 5s. 6d. to 6s. per

ton, and can be carried to Adelaide for 2s. or 3s. per ton more, whilst to land it in vVestern Australia would cost from 12s. to 15s. per ton. These are the freights which the colliers would charge. I am connected with a mining company in Broken Hill which enters .into very large coal contracts. If they make a contract for twelve months they get the coal a little bit cheaper than they otherwise would do.

But even in the case of these ·.'ery good contracts the freight to Port Pirie is not less than 9s. per ton. Of course to some extent the rate depends upon the quantity consumed. Then the ships get back loading in the shape of bullion, which they take very cheap. Of co urse. I am speaking of the lowest class of freights. It wo uld be impossible to get steel rails carried at that rate. I paid 9s. per ton to the Union

Steam-ship Company for freightage upon rails carried from Melbourne to Burnie, and they assured me that they did not make a cent out of the transaction on account of the time occupied in unloading it.. 701. I s t he competition in iron very keen 1-0f course in America and Canada the competition is very severe. Canada is going ahead enormously in the matter of t_he de:elopment of. iron

resources. The competition there is becoming excesBively keen. England 1s holdmg her own fmrly well, but it must b e remembered that she produces a first-class article. Unquestionably, however, the com­ petition is very keen. 702. I s it keen in the Australian market 1-Yes, because the States Governments call for tenders

from all parts of the world. Quite recently, in Victoria, the State Government have been importing American rails. 703. By Mr. Joseph Cook.-What quantity 1-About 10,000 or 15,000 tJns. 704. By Mr. Mauger.-The other day ?-Some little time ago. It cost £5 I Ss. 6d. pm· ton, so that it ran very close to the New South Wales average of £5 15s. 6d. per ton.

705. The price was for delivery in Victoria'l--Of course. 706. By jfr. Watson.- I understand that so far you have not formed the yroposed 7-

The company is in existence at the present time. It contains 1,000,000 shares, uOO,OOO of whwh are issued to the owners of the mine, and we have to put up as well.

707. By JJ!fr . AfcCay.-What is the value of the shares 1-They are shares. 708. By llh. Wc£tson.-The gentlemen who owned the Blythe Rtver have put up

£30,000, and they then credit themselves with 500,000 shares1-Yes, that 1s half the mme. The arranaement how ever was made merely for convenience. We knew very well that the company would have to be liquidated the moment we co uld organize another. It was only formed with a view to pre­ paring the way for a larger company. The difficulty which us was whether we sho_ulcl sell

some of the shares . We might just as well have put the company mto 100 shares, and have gtven the original owners 50 of them. Th.e shares have no market value. The whole matter was merely one of form. If the mi11e were situated in England of course it would be worth a lot of money, and, unques­ tionably, its owners would expect to receive a substantial sum for it. But I may inform the Comm ittee

that these shares were only valued at about 2s. 6d. each. 709. By j )f?-. J oseph Cook.-Although t.hey were nominally £ 1 shares 1-Yes. But the arrangement entered into was simply on e of cum·eniem:e. 710. By }If?-. Watson. - 'l'he position is that you hn ve no t had the cnp ital for the proposed works

guaranteed1-Yes, we have. If the Bonus Bill had been passed at the time we thought it would be, the capital was guaranteed. D2.

\V. Jan1ieson, 25th September, 1902. 36

711, The capital necessary to enable you to establish these works would have to come not from the 500, 000 shares, but from some other source?- Yes. 712. Has that money been subscribed, or is it promised 1-At the period to which I have just refened it was absolutely guaranteed conditionally that the Bonus Bill and the 'l'arifl passed. \Vhen I was negotiating for a second time with New South Wales Government for the supply of 200,000 tons of steel rails, the a1 ·rangement was subject to t he approval of the State Parliament, and also to the passing of the Bonus Bill and the Tariff. At that time the money had been absolutely

guaranteed. 1

713. By J.lfr. Joseph Cook.-Do I understand that you have approached the New, South Wales Government upon two occasions?-Yes. The Government, however, had to put the proposal before Parliament for its approval. - .

714. By Jfr·. Watson. - With regard to the estimate of the probable expenditure required, which is contained in Mr. Darby's report, can you give a brief outline of the different classes of iron that you contemplated turning out. You did not intend to confine yo urself to pig iron ?-Oh, no. vVe intended to t urn out steel rails, sheets, plates, girders, &c. F inished ar t icles such as engines, boilers, castings, &e., Mr. Darby thought, would have to be manufactured by other people from the pig iron produced here and sold by our company, or any other smelting company that might be established. After the iron ore has

been reduced in the big furnace and become what is technically known as pig iron it passes in a molten condition either into t he steel refining furnace or the puddling furnace and thence-still in a heated condition-to t he rolling mills so that it may loose as little as possible of the heat which has been generated in the furnace. The name " pig " is usually interpreted to mean a piece of cold iron in the shape of a pig. The production of the works contemplated would include pi g iron, steel rails, sheet s, plates, girders, steel ingots, and bar and rod iron.

715. B y J.lf1·. TVatson.-As I uiiderstand, you propose to erect two furnaces each of 300 tons capacity. Do you know what is the capacity of the largest and most economical furnaces at present in use in America ?-Yes; they are quite capable of t reating 700 tons per clay. Such furnaces, however, would be too large for 1.1se here. It wo uld be impossi ble to run one of those fumaces continually. We should require to have twelve months' orders ahead to enable us to do it.

716. I s not the use of t he largest possible a factor i11 the economical production of iron 1 -Unquestionably it is, if there were sufficient contracts in hand to enable such a furnace to be kept continuously working. 717. You think it would be unwise to put up the largest type of furnace 1- Yes.

71 8 -71 9. Can you produce metal as with a smaller furnace1-Considering the

. loeal conditions, I think so. 720. you gone into the question of the cost at which iron can be produced and trans­

ported throughout the Commonwealth 1-Mr. Darby has gone into that matter very carefully, no doubt, but that is a portion of his report which ;r could not divulge. Of course, the cost would vary according to where the works located.

721. Are you in a position to supply the Committee with any estimate-rough or otherwise-of the cost of mining the ore, conveying it to your centr"al works, an d producing the iron ; and can you tell us the price at wh ich you co uld place iron upon the local market 1- I could not furnish t hose particulars, because they comprise the very essence of our business.

722 . You must see that that matter has an important bearing upon any proposal to grant a bonus for the encouragement of the industry 'I--I do not there is a man upon earth who could tell you the cost.

723. But there is no doubt that you have an es timate of the cos t of production either in the form of pig iron and st eel based upon normal conditions?- There are no normal conditions existing. W e have an estimate, but I cannot disclose what it is. 724. By fi1r . Joseph Cook. - You decline to furnish t he committ ee with the estimates '1--Y es ; it hus cost us a lo t of money to gain t he information.

725 . By Jlfr. FulleT.- Seeing that you are asking for a bonus to aid you in this enterprise, I think we are entited to have t hat information ?-I cannot supply it. I feel sure t hat if you ask Mr. Sandford a similar question he would take up the same attitude as I do. lVIr. J aquet says that the cost of production is £2 7 s. 7 d. per ton.

726. By 1 111-. Watson.-Mr. J aquet does not pretend to be an expert in this matter. H e says that he is a geologist 7-Tl,at is so, but he can obtain figures as well as can any. one else. I think that the mittee will recognise t hat t here is one strong reason why I should not give t he information for which I am pressed. w· e ar·e not the only persons in the market. If our expert declared that we could produce iron at a lower price than our rivals they might possibly be very seriously hamper ed in t heir efforts to raise the necessary capital to erect their plant. Moreover, in every trade and business there are certain matters which even t he shareholders, who are part owners of it, are not allowed to know.

727. B ut this is not an. ordinary business t ran mLCtion. This is an instance in which it is asserted that the iNitial cos t of establishing the iron industry in A ustralia is so great t lmt unless we grant either a bonus or a duty to aid it, it is impossible to establish it. If that be so, before granting assistance we ought to be thoroughly satisfied that such assistance is necessar·y, and to wh at degr ee it is necessary ?­

I can only baldly state t he conditions under which I can raise the necessary capital to creat e this r.ompany. 728. By Jh. 1VcCay.-But you have gone into t he matter. Are your estim ates based upon the delivery of t he m·ticles from your works at Melbourne, Sydney, or Brisbane at t he price at which it can

he obtained from England and America 1-It all depend s upon the price at the time in England and America. Not long r.go steel \YaS £7 a ton in England. 729. JJy 1ih. Wats on .- Not long ago E ngland delivering steel rails in SydnAv nJ. £4 l Os.

1463

37 '"· J·amieson, .25th September, 1902.

730. By 1lfr. McCay.-Could you supply contracts for ten years at an average of £5 l 5s. 6d. per ton could not say. No one could possibly foresee what difficulties we should be confronted with in the init ial stages of the establishment of the work s, or what amount will need to be expended in metalluro·ical experiments, which must be carried out. "

. 7 31. B?:( .l{r. L. E. Groom.- You require the bonus as a guarantee against loss ; but it

constitutes an mducement to embark upon the enterprise. 732: By. Mr. J oseph Cook.-How do you know that a 15 per cent. duty would be sufficient ?-I am merely an mdn;1dual, and I ca? only tell you ,t erms upon which I can secure t he necessary capital from abroad. There are certam terms upon whiCn that money can be

_7 33. B'!/ llh. Fuller.-Y_ou are asking us to grant you a before we have given you

somethmg for 1t. W e have to m cur an enormous outlay first, in an endeavour to cren,te a new industry, and to run the risk of losing the whole of it, wheren,s the Stat e could not erect the works itself unless it spent an equivalent sum, and even then could not manage the undertaking any better. 734. By A£1 ·. Watson .--You say that you would be satisfied wit h a 15 per cent. duty in lieu of a

bonus'/-W e have received ad vices to that effect from home. 735. You know under the Tariff at the present time there is a duty of per cent. upon

iron manufactures. Do you t hink th:tt a similar measure of protection upon the raw materials would prove a sufficient inducement to your Company?--I feel satisfied that 15 per cent. would be a sufficient inducement to commence operations, but I t hink that 126 per cent. would be accepted, and that the people in London with whom we have been negotirtting would be willing to proceed with the work if I

cabled to t h em. 736. If your works were est< tbli$hed, do you think that the local consumers of iron could get it as cheaply as t hey do suppose that t hey would do so. Of co urse the price varies considerably.

The other day I got a quotation of £3 17s. 6d. per ton for pig iron landed in Adelaide, whereas quite recently we had to pay £4 5s. 6d. per ton. Then the price is regulated to some extent by the brand and by the oversea freightage. 737. Assuming that you were able to supply the Sydney consumers without having to add the

duty to the cost of production, do you think you wo uld be able to supply people at other ports in the Commonwealth to which you have to pay a freight equal to the oversea freight at the same price ?-No, of course t he freight would have to be extra. Unquestionably the place where t he works are established must derive a benefit.

738. It is evident that the people in the States, other than t hat in which the works were situated would have to pay more for the iron?-Yes, the mere matter of the height re.presents the ciifference. 739. A ssuming t hat t he people in the States, other than that in which the smelting works are located , got.their iron at a price equivalent to the outside price, it would necessarily follow that you could produce your iron at a lower cost ?-No man can answer that question. In a large business like

this it is simply impossible to foretell the result. The people who establish the works simply say in effect- " vVell, t he enterprise seems to be good enough, and we will r isk the money." But it is impossible to foretell what would be the result under certain circumstances. 740. You know that the duty on manufactured iron under the Tariff is 12! per cent. ?-Yes.

741. If the cost of the raw material were considerably increased to the makers of machines in Aus­ tralia, a very different complexion would be put upon the 12! per cent. protection which t hey now enjoy'( - Of course, but we should have only 12! per cent. protection upon pig iron. That represents on the value of pig landed h ere about Ss . per ton. Surely that sum would make very little difference to them.

7 4 2. But if there were any material increase in the cost of pig iron it would pay our people to import the complete machines, instead of manufacturing them locally is very difficult for me to say that. You proceed upon the hypothesis that the price of iron would be dearer. I say that, taking into consideration all the intermediate profits which are made at the present time, we might b e able to make

terms with the manufacturers. Upon the whole, I do not think that the article would be any dearer, considering the facilities they would have for its purchase. 7 43. Assuming that there is a fear on the part of some of the secondary users in the Common­ wealth that the cost of the raw material to them would be unduly increased by the imposition of a duty,

do you think that your company would be prepared to commence operations if the duty were taken off pig iron and remained only upon the manufactured product ?-I do not think the people would find the money and risk it in such an undertaking. .

744. Do you think it would pay to do so ?-I cannot tell. We have to do the busm ess as a whole, and we cannot go into details. . . .

7 45. But you can see that such a duty would affect every foundry propnetor m Austraha very materially ?-But you are arguing on the supposition that these works would be a monoply, and I say that they would not. . . . .

7 46 . Assuming that there is no monoply, but a certain amount of comRetltwn, the stlll remains whether the price of iron would b e mat erially increased by. the operatwn of a. duty, ar;td lf so, whether it would injuriously affect the locaJ manufacturer of machmes ?-I do not thmk t hat 1t would injuriously affect him, because bargains would be made all round. Moreover,. manufacturer w0uld have a dep6t to draw upon. I believe that if we co uld get 80s. per ton for pig Iron here we should be

fairly satisfied. 7 4 7. But our manufacturers can obtain it cheaper than t hat ·I-They cannot. 7 48. By the Chairman.- You do not think that the operation of a duty wo uld increase the price of .pier iron locally ?-That is a question which it is impossible for me to answer.

" 7 49. By Mr. Wntson.-Have you had any analysis made to test the o.f the various

coals for iron production ?-I do not know whether :Mr. Darby left t he result of h1s analysiS here, but I know that he visited Port K embla, and tlmt t he coal t here and also at Newcastle is su itable for smelting purposes under certain conditions. The best possible coke would be made by mixing the two coals in certain proportions. Almost any quantity of coal suitable for the manufacture of iron can he obtained

in the Bulli district.

\V. Jamieson, 25th September, 100"2. 38

750. Do you think it would pay to mix Newcastle coal with that of Port Kembla7-Yes, a small proportion, say one-third or one-fourth. 751. In selecting a site near Sydney, you were no doubt influenced by the probability of coal being found in payable quantities in the harbor colliery ?-I happen to be interested in that colliery, and, of comse, we thought that if it proved successful we should be able to take large quantities of coal from that source. We could tug almost any quantity of it a distance of 4 miles at a very low cost.

We propose to have our own colliery steamer, so as to make everything as cheap as possible. The chief reason why we selected a site at Sydney is that the Newcastle railway runs along one side of our pro­ perty, whilst the river is on the other. We cou ld bring a boat that would carry 8,000 or 10,000 tons right into the wharf, as there is over 20 feet depth of water there. The site is only 10 miles from Sydney. It is an excellent distributing and marshalling spot. If we wished to send iron away for redistribution,

we could bring a big boat right up to the wharf and dump the iron on board. 752. \Vas it part of your plan to make your coke at the works 1-Yes. Another consideration was that, as the spot is only 10 miles distant from Sydney, if we erected a plant for generating certain gases, we would unquestionably have a good chance of disposing of the electrical power thus created.

753. You spoke of the different qualities of American and English pig iron ?-Yes. 7 54. Do you require different qualities in the manufacture?-Yes. 755. Do they blend these different qualities of pig 1-They can be blended. But if you wish to turn out a first-class article, you will buy the best kind of pig. If you chose to refine low-class pig, you can do so, or it is possibl e to blend it with iron of a better quality. In the opinion of Mr. Darby the pig iron from the hematite ore at the Blythe River would be suitable for all classes of foundry work for manufacturing any class of steel.

756. Have you given attention to the output that would be necessary to meet the requirements of Australia?-Yes; we have obtained a rough idea from the Government statistics. 757. Can you give any estimate of those requirements ?-The total consumption of iron in Australia is about 450,000 tons annually. Of that quantity about 350,000 tons com prise pig iron, steel rails, sheets, plate wire, tin plates, &c. Having gone into the mat ter pretty fully, I estimate that the whole of the States Governments do not consume more than 140,000 tons annually.

758. Does that quantity include Yes, it includes everything which they require; but

of course the quantity varies considerably. For example, the Victorian Government recently purchased 9,000 tons of steel plates to construct special trucks in connexion with the grain business. Consequently this State can only be debited with the wear and tear upon the plates used iu those trucks. Similarly tho 'IV estern Australian Government have purchased thousands of tons of steel sheets for the purpose of mmmfacturing water pipes iR connexion with the Coolgardie water scheme. The quantity of iron thus consumed ought to be distributed over a number of years in order to arrive at a correct estimate. But in normal times I think that 130,000 or 140,000 tons would suffice for all requirements.

759. 'fhat would mean that about 200,000 tons are annually consumed other than by the States Governments 1-Yes, by the public. Of course there is a vast quantity of galvanized iron used as well as wire, besides all the material in the way of bar, rod, and nugle iron. Hundreds and thousands of miles of wire fencing, for example, are to be found in the back country. The same remark is applicable to galvanized iron. \Vhenever a new mining towns'hip springs into existence that article is very largely

used, whereas the States Governments consume very little of it. 7 60. By M?·. Joseph Cook.-Your estimated output of iron generally is 150,000 tons per annum 7 -Yes. 761. According to that, your works would be able to serve the probable local requirements, exclusive of those articles which are likely to be imported, for some time 1- Yes, if we could establish the works, no doubt we should be able to meet the local demand. But a vast quantity of these materials is consumed in IV estern Australia and the Northern Territory, which the freights would prohibit us from

reaching. If the works proved successful we should be able to extenel them, and if there is any other spot where it would pay to erect subsidiary works, t hat course might be adopted. For instance, we might erect additional works at Burnie. 762. You think that you would have a great deal more ore to take to the coal than coal to take to the ore1-No, there would be about the· same quantity of each.

763. You moan coke, do you not 1-But, roughly speaking, we refer to a ton of coal. Some of the coals coke up very highly. \Ve have works belonging to the Mount Lyell Company which turn out quite 500 tons of coke per week. They are situated at Port Kembla. 764. Would you care to say what it costs to produce coke1--I could not tell you that.

765. What is the selling price in Sydney 1-At the present time the selling price would be, roughly, 14s. a ton upon the ground. Sometimes it is 16s., and we paid as much as 19s. per ton before we started our own works, but not long ago we sold some for I5s. a ton. 766. The price of it in Sydney the other day was only 9s. 6d . a ton 1-No, there was never a ton of coke sold at t hat price.

767. You are a director of one of the Broken Hill mines 7-Yes. 768. Are you connected with the company which makes its own coke 7-No, that 1s the Pro­ prietary Company. 769. By M?". company gets its coal from Port Kembla 1-Yes.

770. By jJfr. Watson.- It is the best carrying coke 7-We use imported coke as well. Formerly we used enormous quantities of standard coke from Germany, but the big prices which we had to pay forced us to put up our own works. 771. By 3!? ·. you know the difference in the percentages of ash in the various

cokes 1-At Port K mbla they run from 14 to 17 per cent., whilst at Newcastle good coke can be obtained which carries only 6 or 7 per cent. of ash. But then it is not a good carrying coke. It will crush too easily, although it is good for heating purposes. 772. By jJf?-. Watson.-If you established works at Burnie would you have any supply of lim e­ stone available ?-Any quantity.

1465

39 \V. Jamieson,

25t h September, I902,

773. H ow do you r egard the Government imports of iron 1-I estimate that the States Govern­ ments import 130,000 or 140,000 tons annually of which 100,000 tons consistq of steel rails. 7! 4. Assuming that the High Court ruled- t hat the Commonwealth Government has no power to tax the 1mports of the States Governments, do you think that you would be able to compete with the ou tside world w·ithout the aid of a duty ?-I dare say that in some instances t.he Government wo uld be inclined to give us a contract at a fair rate. Generally the country in which such a birr industry is establi hed is glad to assist it .

0

775. Do you think there is any likelihood of your gettin cr suffic ient wo rk to do in the absence of a duty on State ' Ve should have to run the risk of th

0

at. vVe do not t hink so much of that

matte1 ·, because when it is boiled down the Stat es get the money returned to them. If you charge 15 per cent. upon steel rails they get three-quarters of the revenue thus derived returned to them. 776. How long would it take to get your works started in the event of the Bill passing ?--Two a nd· a half years. The arrangement with the New South Wales Government was t hat we should start

within two years, with a six mo nths extension in case of accident. 777. By jjf?-. L. E . Groom.-How many men do you estimate you would employ for the first four months 'I--I suppose that their wages would average, roughly speaking, a bout £3 per week, which would mean about 3,000 men.

778. Do you mean to say that you wou ld employ that number from the jump ?- That is

the number which wculd be employed during the first four months in which operations we re in full swing. 779 . In the summary which you have put before the Committee there is an amount of £ 17,108 which you say will be required fo r the Blythe Hiver iron mines. What is meant by that item ?-We have to create t he power for air drills and to lay out the mine. There are lots of other things to be done, and the a mount mentioned is what is estimated is necessary to put the mine in good working

order a nd to enabl e ·us to turn out 1,:30 0 tons per day. ·

180. The which you estimate at 24 ,000,000 tons is at present held by t he Blythe Rinr Company?- Y es. 781. vVhat is the number of shares in that company million. 782 . H ow many of those shares have been allotted hundred t housand .

783. To whom have they bee n allotted 7-To the owners of the property and to those who haYe put up the £30,000 odd. 784. Have any shares been allotted to the owners of the property in consideration of the transfer position is t his : The original owners of the mine were Tasmanians. I happened to

come into con tact with t hem in a business capacity. We looked a t the deposit and agreed to spend much money upon it . Our first intention was to work it as a flux mine, but when it was opened out we concluded t hat it was good enough to conver t it into a big iron company after the Commonwealth had been established. Then a great difference of opinion arose as to how we should proceed. ' ¥ e pu r­ chased 700 tons of rails, got all t he sleepers cut, and had detailed surveys made, besides incurring

an enormous expenditure in other directions. We paid a deposit upon land in Sydney and bought a good deal of land at Burnie. 78 5. Are those shares held by the Y es.

786. D o the personFJ who transfer hold shares in consideration of the Y es .

i 787. The present proposal is to form a new company, which will work under the conditions laid

down in the Bonus Bill if that measure be Y es.

788 . So t hat really it. will be necessary to raise £1,109,000 of fresh capital to equip the - Yes .

7 8 9. Has any prospectus been issued to the No.

790. The negotiations which have taken place in the old country a re private negotiations betwee n t he present proprietary and certain prospeGtive investors 7-That is so. 791. I s it the intention of the present shareholders to continue the interest which they now have in. the property ?-Most decidedly. . . .

792. It is not their desire to sell out to the company 1- Certainly not. Th ey will retam a cCI·lam proportion of the whole for the interes t which t hey now have. 793. H ave the Tasmanian proprietors faith in the venture they have. They wou ld

invest in it every cent they have in the world. . . .

794. The present proprietors thoroughly intend to carry on a:s a permanent 1nveslm: nt. It is not intended to float it as a speculation, and t o allow the Enghsh cap1tahsts to caiT)' on operatJcr:s as they think fit 7--N o ; t he people here desire to retain their in the property a FJ long as t hey

can afford to do so. No doubt, some people who are res1dents would be placed upon t he lcca l

directorate. 795. In the event of your establishing work H on the Parramatta R iver, is it intended to draw the iron supplies of the other States 7-That depends entirely upon whether ':anted or not .. A good deal of the Blythe River iron ore is very heavy, and If we co ul d get oxidized ores whiCh are hght and are able to carry the weight, we might avail ourselYes of t he opportumty do so : But, of course,

I cannot give a proper answer to any_ such question. vVhen the manager I S appomted, he an d the metalluraist will conduct t he whole busmess. 7'96 . Did Mr. D arby report upon the iron deposits of New South W ales 1- N o. 797. By Mr. Jo seph Cook.--You in the event_of your securing the bi g with

the N ew South 'Vales Government of whu..:h you spoke, to use 2o per cent. of local ores. \Vhere d1cl yo u intend to obtain the ores the most suitable place. \Ve knew wh ere we could get it.

798. D o you know anything about the New Sout h Wales deposits 7- Yes. 799. H ave you formed any opinion of them ?-No doubt _ some of them arc very good . 800. I s it possible to work them profitably w1th the a1d of a bonus ?-I thmk so, but I do r.ot think it is fair to ask me that question, because it places me in the position of having to offer opinions

upon the value of other people's properties.

· ,V, Jamieson , 25th Se ptember, 1902. 40

801. Does Mr. Darby, in his report, refer to the quality of steel which would be likely to be produced from the iron deposits at the Blythe River?--The analysis of the Blythe H.i ve r ore is such that, under proper metallurgical treatment, it is sure to produce the best quality of steel.

80:2. \Vas any Blythe River ore taken to the old country and tren,ted 1-Yes. 803. Have you the results in your possession ?- I have not. Mr. Darby smelted a few .tons of it at horn e before he visited Australia. 804 . \Vas it a fair average sample, or was it picked ore 1-It was a fair average sample. W hen t he analysis discloses that i t contained 63 per cent. of iron, and we remember that 70 per cent. is pure hematite ore, its quality will be at once apparent.

805. By jJfr. L . E. Groom.:_ You stated t hat the freight from Sydney to Queensland- especially the norlhern part of it- is very high ?- It is higher there is no extreme competition. vVe sold

some coke, which had t o be fo rwarded to Ce1irns, and I know that the freight upon it was much mor e t han would be charged for a similar distance t he other way-I mean towards ·western Australia. 806. By J1fr. Jlfcmge1'.-Have you had any experience of iron works out side Australia 1- None whatever.

807. You cannot say whether any works have been established elsewhere wit hout ass istance from the Government ?-I know of none that were originally started without some kind of assistance. 808. Do you think that if Parliament drops the proposal t o grant. a bonus for the encouragement of the iron industry, t here is any chance of your company doing anything ?-As far as my advice goes, t here is no chance whatever. ·

809. If Parliament imposed a 12! per cent. duty upon the raw material, would there be any prospect of the company commencing operations ?-I believe that if such a duty were imposed quickly there would be a chance. But we have been hanging on to t hat hope for two years. 809A . vVould steel rails be your main product ?-That would entirely depend upon whether the Government would give us orders to supply all their requirements.

81 0. You are prepared to commence operations if you are granted encouragement either by way of the imposition of a duty or the payment of a bonus, and to risk whether yo u receive contracts for supplying the Governments with steel rails ?- No, we must have both--the bonus first and the duty else we must have a duty from the start. Upon the whole, I think we should

prefer to have the aid of a duty. 8 11. You would be prepared to risk whether you receive Government orders if you had the benefit conferred by a duty?-vVe should have to do so. If our wo rks were established in N ew Sout h vVales, we should be sure to receive a good share of t he Government contracts. . 8 12. You are not able to give any opinion regarding iron works in other parts of the world?-

Not other t han can be obtained from studying statistics upon the matter. 8 13. You cannot tell me what wages you would pay as compared with other centres 1·- VVe should have to pay wages equal to any paid elsewl1 e1·e. Skilled men would have to be secured from abroad till t he local workmen were taught sufficient to enable them to take their places.

814. Has that point bee11 taken into consideration ?-Oh, yts. 815. By 1 11?·. Kir·wan.-If the Bonus Bill be passed, will it increase the value of t he property of the Blythe River Company ?- Of course, it will. It would mea.n that there would be more than a probability of the company goin g ahead. If the Bonus Bill is not passed, we should simply have t o reserve that property until we have a better chance of making good use of it. Unless works of the character I have indicated are created, the ore at t he Blythe River is practically valueless. Of course, we can run a train into the property, take the ore away, and sell it as flux to the Cockle's Creek or Dapto Smelting vVorks, but that is all that it could be used fo r.

816. Can you form any idea of the ' value of the com pany's property, assuming that the Bonus Bill be passed ?-E verything depends upon circumstances. We might be fortunate enough to secur e very low freights, and thus be able to send the ore to England. The value of the property depends upon what use we can make of the ore and its price. It is very difficult to determine the value of a mi.r:e unU you can make use of it.

817. Can you state the difference that the passage of the Bonus Bill would make in the value of the company's property ?-The property occ upies just the same position tha.t is occupied by a slate quarry or anything else. If the quarry cannot be used for its legitimate purpose, it is only fit for road met al. A property is valueless until it is worked, and t herefore it is impossible to decide 'vhat the of the Blythe River mine would be.

818. Still the passage of the Bill would increase its value ?--Certainly, it would increase the va1ue of all properties, provided that the measure was good enough to induce capital to be invest ed in t;hem . 819. · Who would derive the chief advantage conferred by the passing of the Bill ?- If the mine were valued at a quarter of the capital subscribed by the new company, the people who found the money would get three-fourths of the property.

820. A good deal would depend upon the financing of the company in the first instance 1-U ndoubtedly. The passing of the Bill is merely intended to create a new industry in the country, and to induce people to invest t heir money in it. 82 1. By Mr. Jo;;eph Cook. - Is that all ?-Of course, it does good to everybody.

822. Do you know that in Canada t he iron industry has enjoyed the advantage of a bonus for the past eigh t een years ?-Y r.c· 823. I s that bonu s st1JJ oemg paid to create new industries or to continue old ones n some cases the industry was established long ago. The bonus was originall y given to induce capitalists to invest t heir money in t he enterprise and thus to benefit the country, although I do not pretend for one moment that they were ph ilanthropists, any more t han we are. If the Government do not pass the Bill, the fact is that we cannot .float the projected company and embark upon the undertaking.

824. You said that if the company were floated, one-fourth of the shares in it would be held by the present owners of the Blythe River mine, and three-fourths by t hose wl!o subscribed the

41

1467

\V, Jam ieso n, :15th September, 1902.

'No; I simply put a suppositious case. T said, by way of illustration, that if £ 1,000,000 were subscribed, unquestionably, the value of the mine would become a reality instead of a supposition, and tha t if its presen t owners got one-four th of the shares in the propose d company aud t hose ·wh o found the three­ fou rths, the proportions wou ld then be as one is to three. Of course, the passing of the Bonus Bill would make no eu.rthly to us unle% we could fmd the necessary capital.

825. Do you kno'v any reason why tate iron works should not be s uccessful within the Common­ wealth ?-1 think t hat one of the chief reasons wh y they would not be successful is t hat it is a business req ui ring t he g <·catest care and the highes t metn.lllll'gical skill. Continual attention needs to be paid t o the work in hanrl. P rrwnall y, I am of opinion that no State industry can be carried on in as economical

a manr:er as can a private enterprise. Moreo ver, the State 'vould have to pay the hea d man an enormous sala ry if tlw b usines s were to be properly managed. It would be impossibl e to secure t he services of a manager to take charge of works of the magnitude that we contemplate for less than £ G,OOO a year. 82 6. ·w ould you pay him that ?-I am i:i lll'e t ha t Mr. Darby would not accept that sala,ry. The

co mpany wi t h which I am associated pays large Ealaries t o its head men at Broken Hill, and I am sure t hat we wou ld prefer to increase them by 50 per cent. rather than lose their ser vices. In A merica, of managers get £ 10,000 a year.

82 7. no you t hin k t hat the manage ment of iron works is mqr c complicated than the manage­ ment of d ifferen t branches of industry which a rc alren.dy under Gov ernment control ?-Y es. The 8alaries pa id to the manager s of iron works are much higher than those given to the managers engaged in the smelting of lead and copper or e:< . A fi rst cl ass iron and steel metallurgist draws a, hi gher salary t han is

paid to a ny one else. 82 ' . l s it much more difficult to conduct large iron works t han it is to run a r ailway ?-Un­ doubtedly. It is not d iffi cult to run a rail way. 829. By Mr . Kirwan.- 1 suppose it is not difficult to manage a P ost and Telegraph department? - Certainly no t.

42

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ROYAL COMMISSION.

(Taken at M elbourne.)

TUESDAY, 17TH FEBRUARY, 1903.

Commissioners present :

The Right Ron. C. C. KINGSTO N, Chairman. Mr. Joseph Cook, I Mr. L. E. Groom,

Mr. Winter Cooke, :lVIr. Watkins.

H enry Yorke Lyell Brown, sworn and examined. 830. By the Chainnan.- You are Government Geologist of South Australia?-Y es. 83 1. For how many years have you been in that position ?-Since about the end of the year 1882. 832. P revious to that you were in the employ of the New South \Vales Government?-Yes. 833. What position did you hold in New South Wales ?-I was Assistant Geologist. 834. I suppose you have a pretty intimate acquaintance with t he mineral resources of South Australia?-Yes.

835. Have you formed any opinion a :s to the capacity of South Australia for iron production and manufacture?-I am able to say that there are a great many deposits of iron in South Australia, some of them very large and some small. .

836. You have examined a good many of these deposits?-Yes, I have seen most of them. I submit the following list of the chief localities in South Australia at or near which iron ores occur :-Angaston, Barossa, Beltana, Bismark, BmTa, Blumberg, Clinton, Cutana, Crystal Brook, Hurella, Gladstone, Gum Creek, Huddleston, Hawker, Iron Knob and Iron Monarch, Koolka, Kapunda, Kersbrook, lYlount Jagged, Normanville, Oodla Wirra, Peralilla, Pernatty Lagoon, Point Lowly, Port Lincoln, Pandurra, Para vVirra, and Quorn.

837. Do you consider that there is a fair prospect of the establishment of iron manufacture in South Australia ?-Yes, I think there is at one of these 838. Which of the mines in the localities to which you have just referred is, in your opinion, most favoured ?-'l'he Iron Knob and Iron Monarch.

839. They are adjoining mines, are they not '!-Yes. 840. And are shortly referred to as the Iron Knob '!-Yes. I produce four photographs of the Iron Knob which I took myself some two or three months ago. I also produce two other photographs of the Iron Knob, and a plan showing the relative situations of the Iron Knob and the Iron Monarch.

84 1. Where is the Iron Knoh ?-It ie 40 miles west of Port Augusta. 842. It is not connected with Port Augusta by rail?-No; but it is connected with a place called the Hummocks, about 30 miles across the Gulf from Port Pirie. Then there is a railway extending for 33 miles to the Iron Knob from the jetty at the Hummocks.

843. The railway has been constructed by the Broken Hill Proprietary from the mine to the jetty, and the stuff is sent from the jetty in lighters to Port Pirie?-Yes, in lighters or steam-tugs. This has been done for the last seventeen months now. 844. Do you know how much has been shipped from these mines 7-At the time I was there, about Christmas, they told me that about 80,000 tons had been shipped.

845. 'l'hat is during the time the railway has been opened ?-Yes. 846. I s that from the South Quarry ?-Yes ; and I was told that about 10,000 tons had been shipped from the North Quarry. 84 7. vVhat is the length of the outcrop ?-About 20 chains, or a quarter of a mile.

848. Can you tell us what is about the height of the workings at the South Quarry ?-The greatest height is about 100 feet. 849. And the width at the bottom ?-About 150 feet. 85 0. What is the nature of the ore ?-It is hre matite.

851. You have visited the mine only recently for the purpose of reporting upon it?- Yes. 852. Can you give us an estimate of the quantity in sight above the level of the South Quarry? -Yes, I take it to be about 1,000,000 tons. I do not know how far it goes down. 853. Only estimating to the depth which you can see, you believe the quantity in sight above the level of the South Quarry to be about 1,000,000 tons 1--Yes.

854. Can you give the percentages of the various prqducts of the ore ?--Yes. I had an average assay supplied by the Broken Hill Proprietary, which shows t hat it contains 68·5 per cent. iron, a trace of manganese, no phosphorus, no sulphur, and 2·3 per cent. of silica. •

855. Did you ascertain the quantity of ore shipped to Port Pirie for the Broken Hill Proprietary Company during the half-year ending 30th November, 1902 ?-Yes, it was 53,000 tons. 856. You are speaking of the Iron Knob, as distinct from the Iron Monarch 1-Yes. 857 . Can you give us n description of the deposit in the Iron Monarch ?-It is a large hill rising from plain country, about 600 or 700 feet high.

858. What is the area approximately of the deposit ?-About 50 acres. It seems to be about 150 feet thick in one place, but there is a shaft below that again extending for a considerable distance. I have taken it at an average of I 00 feet thick, but that is by no means a liberal estimate, because it will go down in so me places deeper than in others.

859. Is t here much manganese there?-Yes, there is some, but it may not continue in the main mass . 860. You went there to form an estimate for the information of the Commission, knowing that you were to be examined 7-Yes.

1469

43 H. Y. L. Brown, 17th February, 1903.

86 1. You have formed an estimate of t he ore contents of what you saw at the Iron Monarch?­ Y es. I reckoned them at about 20,000,000 tons of ore. 862. I believe there are other ores scattered over the surface which you 11ave not estimated ?­ Yes, there are large blocks, boulders, and gravel, for a mile or two around, which have been denuded

from t he hill. 8G3 . Have you made any analyses of these ores?-Yes, and I procured some analyses hom the Broken Hill people as well. 864. What were t he Broken Hill analyses ?-The first gave 54 ·57 per cent. of iron, 12·7 man­ ganese, and silica 1·2 per cent. The second gave-iron 52 per cent., manganese 15 per cent., and silica

2·3 per cent. 865. Those are average n.nalyses ?-I asked Mr. Delpratt for analyses and t hose are what he sent me. You could hardly take an average, because it has not been opened up, but it looks like good ore all over.

866. You had co mplete analyses taken, had you not?- Y es. 67. How did you select the sample for analysis 7-I took what I considered to be an average sample and I had it analyzed at the Adelaide Sch ool of Mines. 868. With what result ?-It showed t he following results :-

W ater 1·23 per ce nt

Silica 1 ·19 ,

F errou<; Oxide 1·36 ,

Ferric Oxide . . . 92·88 , } = 66·08 per cent. iron

Alumina 2·47 ,

Phosphoric A cid 0·04

Sulphur Nil

Titanic Acid .. . Nil

869. I suppose you have seen a good many iron deposits in your time?-Yes. 870. How does this compare with any other deposits you have seen ?-It is the biggest I have ever seen in all my experience. 871. Having regard not only to the supply out to the value of the deposit?-Yes.

872. How is South Australia supplied with limestone 7-Very well; there is limestone all around the Gulf ; it can be got almost everywhere. The Proprietary Company have been getting it from an island on the coast, W andong I sland I think they call it . 873. Taking together these two deposits at the Iron Knob and the Iron Monarch, they form about the biggest thing in iron that we have in South A ustralia 7-Y es, a.nd t he most favorably situated

also; it is nearer to the coast than any other. 87 4. Knowing generally what the resources of South Australia are, what would be your idea in the working of the iron deposits : wo ul d you smelt there or elsewhere ?-I t hink I should ship the ore to where the coal was.

875. That, I think, is the general rule; I am alluding to the practice of sending foreign ores to England for the purpose of smelting?-Y es. 876. In view of the quest ion of shipping the ore to the coal or the coal to the ore, what are the relative quantities of coal and iron ore used in smelting iron ?-I think that three or four times as much

coal is r eq uired, but I am not a smelter. 877. Your idea is that the quantity of coal required is very much larger than the quantity of iron ore for smelting?-Y es. 878. Which mine would you · put next in importance to t he Iron Knob and Iron Monarch?-I think the Cutana mine. .

879. Where is that ?-It is on the line from Broken Hill to P etersburg, 10 miles sout h of Mingary Railway Sta.tion. The nearest port is Port Pirie, from which it is distant 203 miles by rail. 880. What is the ore chiefly ?-Chiefly limonite. 88 1. Is there any hrematite 1-There is hrematite.

882. What is the extent of the ore beds ?-A large bed of ore there averages from 10 to 20 feet. 883. Is the mine being worked now ?-They have not worked it since the Broken Hill Proprietary changed their smelting works. Since they shifted their wo rks to Port Pirie t he Campany have not used the ore from t his mine, but get it from the Iron Knob.

884. I think limestone occurs in the mine at Cutana ?-Yes, there is limestone with the iron there. 885. You have visited this mine?-Yes. 886. \Vhn.t is your estimate of the ore it contains '1-I think about 60,000 tons to the acre, but I cn,nnot tell without sinking a shaft.

887. It has been proved to a certain extent'I-Yes. 888. Can you form any idea of the acreage of the largest continuous body of ore proved 1-About 30 acres. 889. And you think a fair estimate is 60,000 tons to the acre'I-Yes.

890. H ave you had this ore assayed ?-Yes; I have had samples assayed. 891. Will you give us the results 1-Yes. The followmg 1s the result of the assay of hese samples:-Nodules from Surface.

W ater Sili ca Ferrous Oxide Ferric Oxide Alumina ...

Phosphoric Acid Sulphur Titanic Acid

l ·16 per cent. 6 ·26 0·79 88 ·40

2·65 O·ll Nil T race

}

=62·49 per cent. iron

\Vater Silica Ferric Oxide

Alumina Phosphoric Acid Sulphur Titanic Acid

Average Sample.

5·08 per cent. 18•47 71·04 =49·73 per cenL.

4•37 0·06 9·15 Trace

iron

H. Y. L. J3Nwn, 17th l<'ebrna.ry, 1003. 44

892, You have told us these quarries supplied ore as flux to the Broken Hill Proprietary Company before tbev had reco urse to t he Iron Knob?-Yes. 893. I think there are important iron deposits near Port V ictor in t he south 1-Yes, at Mount Jagged a nd P eralilla.

894. Dealing with Mount Jagged first ?-There is there a sort of lode formation associated with qu a r tz. It is not of very great extent. There is a quarry there 60 feet by 25 feet by 25 feet deep. 895. vVhat is the ore ?-Titaniferous iron. 8 9&. What is the width of the lode?-It is 12 fe et in thickness.

897. Have they tried smelting t.here ?-Yes. 898. By N1 ·. Joseph Cook.-Y ou say it is titaniferous iron ?--Yes. The assay shows 5·38 per cent. of ti: anic acid. 899. Does not that make it useless for steel purposes?-'l'hey made pig iron out of it some 40 or 50 years ago by means of locally-made charcoal.

900. By the Chainnctn.-What did it cost 1-It is supposed to have cost about £2 1 Os. per ton. 901. Locally-made charcoal was used ?-Yes. 902. That iB the information you have been able to gather upon the subject ?-Yes. I got that information out of an old book--an almanac, I think.

903. There large deposits of limestone there?-Yes, of veqr pure limestone. 904. You haYe mad e an analysis of this ore?-Yes. The analyzed gave the following results :-Water .. .

Silica

Tra.ce 0·80 per cent,

F errous oxide F erric oxide Phosphoric acid Titanic 11-cicl Sulphur

" Jt containing 66 ·34 per cent. iron

" 0·01 5-38 0·09 "

"

"

Thou gh this sample gave titanic acid, ther·e might not be titanic acid all through it. 905. Then the deposit at Peralilla is near Port Victor, too?-Yes it is within 6 or 7 miles north of Port Victor. ·

906. The deposit there is on the summit of a high and it has been used as a flux

quarry. 907. What is the average thickness of the deposit ?-Abol.lt 12 feet. 908. Have you formed au estimate of the q1.1antity o£ ore remaining ?-Roughly, I think, the quantity is l 00,000 tons; but it is mixed with ferruginous sandstone. It is nota very pure deposit .

I think the best has been taken away. 909. Where is the Codla Wirra deposit ?'-lt is 15 miles from Petersburg on the Broken Hill Railway. 910. Did the company use the ore from the mine as flux?-Yes, t he Proprietary Company used to get flux from there.

911. What quantity was taken away?-I was told 16,000 tons. 912. I suppose the best has been taken away ?-As f!tr as I could see, it appeared to have been nearly worked out. 913. Now, as to Donnelly's mine at Quorn. How i& t hat from t he nearest rail way statiDn 1 -It is 14 miles from Quorn station, which is 25 miles from Port A ugusta.

914. How n1any outcrops are t here at this place1-There ·are five chief outcrops. They have sent away 17,500 tons as flux to Port Pirie from there. 915. Have you formed an estimate of the quantity of ore remaining 7--I put it at about 470,000 tons.

916. In your opinion, is this a valuable and extensive is. There is a good quantity

of ore, but the analyses show that it contains a good dea.l of phosphol'io ao id , whioh of course detracts from the val1.1e. 917. You had som e samples a,nalyzed ?-Six samples of the ore, on analysis, gave t he following result s :-

- -- -

Fm•rugi no us Silicious Silicious Silicious - Manganese Li1nonit e. Limonite.

Ore. Hematite. Hematite. Limonite.

-----

\Vater ... ... .. . - 4·61 9·06 ]1·22 5 ·04 8·54

Insoluble (silica and silicate of alum ... )·69 1 •39 •67 26 ·10 20 ·29

F erric oxide * ... ... 32·96 74·95 79•75 83·84 63·68

Ferro.us oxide * .. . . .. .. . .. . - 2·52 1 •94 Trace '!'race 2·23

Alumina ... ... ... .. . 8•43 3•99 6·30 ·89 4 ·08 4•74

Phosphoric acid ... ··- . ,. . .. 1•22 •93 1 •34 2 •35 I ·16 1·00 Sulphur ... . .. ... ·n ·oo ·JS •05 Nil Nil Titanic acid ... ... .. . Nil Nil Nil Ni l Nil Nil Mang-a nese dioxide ... .. . 54•57 - - - - -Copper ... ... ... .. . .. . - - -- - ·16 -----98 ·98 99•85 99·96 99 •02 100·22. . 99•51 - - - - - - - - --- --------- - - - ----,,. Con taining iron , .. ... .. . 23 ·07 54'43 57•34 5R·68 44 •57 45•63 " 1.nanganese ... ... .. . 34•50 - - - - -Some of these samples were taken from tunnels where they were gettin g at a good depth. The silicious ones, I think, very likely came from there.

1471

45 H, Y. L. Brown, 17.th February, 1903.

918. You look upon South Australia as containing numerous deposits of very excellent iron - Y es. There are a, great ma.ny more deposits t han those in the localities to which I have referred, but they have not been worked. 919. By M1·. J oseph Cook- Those to which you have re ferred have been worked they

have beer. work ed for flu x . 920. By the Chainnan.- Have you any doubt that vast supplies of iron ore would be available in South Australia if smelting works were in Australia7-No. I have no doubt as to the

supply available in Sou th Australia, but I do not know whether it would be a bad thin()' to have too much manganese in the ore. · "

921. You think that South Australia could supply all the iron ore that might be wanted for centuries 922 . By Jl!!?-. J oseph Cook.-I suppose that when you speak of manganese being in the ore, you mean the copper contents generally 7-N o; manganese.

923. In the various analyses t o which you have referred I have noticed no mention of copper 1 -You will find that there is a return of ·16 per cent. of copper given in t he analysis of the silicious hematite ample from t he deposit a t Quorn. 924. By the Chai1·man.- Is there any other evidence you would like to give 'I-I produce a map

of Sou th Australia indicating approximately the localities to which I have referred. 925 . Some of the fluxin g material was supplied t o the l llawarr:.t mines?-Y es. 926. I s there anything else you would like to say in a general way to t he qua,l ity of the

iron, I do not of course know what amount of iron this iron ore would produce. I do not know enough about iron smelting to enable me to s:>.y that. 927. But you have given us the results of tests, and from them, those experienced in t he manu­ facture of iron will be able to t ell us the quality of the iron ore?-Yes.

928. By Mr. L. E. G1·oom.-So far there have bee n no tests made of smelting this ore into iron '1-I do not know of any except t hat referred to as having been made at Mount Jagged, a great many years ago. 929. Do you know how the Iron Knob and Iron Monarch are held 1-They are held by t he

Broken Hill Proprietary Company. 930. As a mineral Yes, as a mineral lease of 40 acres.

9:31. By M1·. Winte1· Coolce .-You say that you had experience in New South ·w ales before going to South A ustralia 1-Yes, I was on the geological survey in New South Wales. 932. H ad you any means of gaining any knowledge of the iron deposits of New South vVal es '1-.r o. I was on the gold-fields there.

933. Then you are not in a position to compare the iron deposits of South Australia with those m ew South Wales 7-No. 934. You have given us yom· opinion as a geologist as to the amount of iron ore you saw; but you are not able to say whether it was a good ore for smelting or not

935. I understand that your evidence goes to show that there is an iwn ore to be found in South Australia, but you are not in a position to say whether it is good for smelting, with the exception of q1at at Mount Jagged ?-I have said t hat, so far as I know, smelting has not been tried. 936. And as to the cost of producing iron from that ore you have no evidence to give, except the

statement which you saw in an almanac ?-That is all. 937. By Jfr·. Watkins.-You have never gone into the question as to whether it would pay to develop any of these mines 93 8. You can give us no definite statement as to the presence of silicia making the ore more

costly t o smelt 1- No; that is a smelting question also. There is very little silicia in some of t he ores. I do not suppose the very silicious ores would be smelted. 939. There is manganese and titanic acid in some of the sample8 analyzed?-Yes. 940. By Jl{?·. Joseph Cook.-You say you have not tested t he ores of the Iron Knob and the Iron Monarch below the p resent surface workings 7-No ; t hat has not been necessary, because it will take :1

good many years to clea.r away the ore above the level. 941. You have never thought it worth while to sink a shaft 7-No. .

94 2. In New South W ales Mr. J acquet had a number of shafts sunk for t he purpose of testmg the deposits in order to see what the probable contents were. You have not done anything of that sort 7 -No. I do not think that has been done. I do not t hink these deposits do go very de_;-p. My calcu­ lations as to the quantity of ore available are based upon the assumption that t hey do not go very deep. They are mushroom sort of things . They appear to be spring deposits. Indeed , I have seen t hem forming in some springs. . .

943. I s your reason for thinking that they do not contu:tue much below. t he surface den ved from your examination of the ore above the surface ?-From expen ence I have gamed. I have seen shafts sunk on similar deposits go right through them. . . :r

944. You have had no such shafts sunk m South Austraha '1-N o. They have not been

needed. -

945. Still you say the deposits do not go, ,very deep 7-I mean .that I do not think they go down 200 feet or 300 feet, or anything of that sort. I hey do not go down hke a lode. .

946. By jlfr. the ores you have seen there are wh at are termed oxidized ores?-

Yes. All oxides, not pyrites. 947. Would you think the presence of manganese and t itani? acid would be or _lesl:!

than in the oxidized state ?-I think the manganese would fall away m depth, but t11e B lhCla 1mght increase. 948. By Mr. Joseph Cook.-You say that the Iron Knob is 33 miles by railway fn•m the nearest water ?- Yes, from the nearest jetty.

. 949. Supposing a proposition we re made to develop t hese ores, at what place would they be shipped 7-From end of the railway where they are shipped now.

H. Y. L. Brown, 17th February, 1903. 46

950. Could t hat be done without lighters 7-They would only have to extend the jetty a little f urther out to get to deep water. 951. Such as would enable Inter-State boats to go alongside and load 7-I should think so. It is not a very rough place, it is only the.north wind s that affect it much.

952. \Ve have had evidence that, in all probability, the ore would have to be lightered from there 1 -I do not, of co urse, know t he depth of water. There a re other harbors close to the place. There is Point Lowly, which, it is said, is a better place, or t hey co uld connect with Port Augusta, which is a splendid harbor. .

953. Have you any idea as to the relative cost of smelting iron with charcoal and making it with coal ?-No; but I should think that it wo uld be cheaper to make it with coal than with charcoal. 954. How much a ton is coal landed at the point where it is said this charcoal, to which you hav<:J referred, was made 7-I suppose it would be from l8s. to 20s. per ton.

955. How was t he charcoal made 7-In the ordinary way, by burning gum trees. It must be remembered t hat t hey would have to cart the coal for 14 miles from Port V ictor. 956. ·what would you say a ton of charcoal would cost 7-I suppose it would cost £1 per ton. 957 . H ow many tons of charcon,l do you t hink it would take to smelt a ton of iron '!-Three or

4 tons I should think. 95 8. Then it would take 3 or 4 tons of charcoal at £1 per ton to smelt a ton of iron, which, we have been told, cost about £2 lOs. to produce; you must see t hat that story is impossible 7-I do not pretend to know anything abou t the charcoal business.

959. It is, of course, not fair to ask you to go into questions connected with iron manufacture, which is more or less a matter of chemistry. But I should like to ask you, having regard ·to the iron propositions already on t he tapis in New South Wales and Tasmania ; what chance you So uth Australia would have in competition with them, supposing an iron proposition were made having as its basis South A ustraJian ores; what chance do you think such a proposition would have of competing with t he Blythe River Company's proposition, or with propositions in New South \Vales 7-I think it depends upon how far the other deposits are from the sea. If t he deposits in New So uth Wales are closer to t he sea they would have a better chance of competing successfully.

960. B y JIIi-. You have not go ne into the question of production1-N o.

961. By J.lf1·. J oseph Cook.-Do you know where t:he Blythe River deposits are1-I do not know how far they are from the coast, and I am not, t herefore, able to make a comparison between them and the South Australian deposits. 962. By the Chairman.-You are of t he opinion that the South A ustralian deposits, to which you have referred , do not go down deep, and your estimat e of 20, 000,000 tons of ore in sight at the I ron Monarch is based upon that conclusion ?-Yes.

963. As regards the quantit ies of ore available in South you have given us estimates,

and as regards t he quality of the ore you have given us analyses ?-Yes. 964. By J.l£1· . . Watkins.-You cannot tell us whether any one ton of the ore which you have described would be a marketable product in the manufacture of bessemer steel for instance ?-No. 965. By Mr. Joseph Cook. - You cannot tell us whether at t he present time a ny of this iron ore

is of a ny use to Australia for the purpose of making steel '1--That is hardly a question for me to answer .

(Taken _ at MelbouT ne. )

WEDNESDAY 18TH FEBRUARY, 1903.

Commissioners prese,;,t:

The Right Hon. C. C. KINGSTON, Chairman. Mr. Joseph Cook, Mr. Winter Cooke, Mr. L. E. Groom,

Mr. McCay, Mr. Watkins, Mr. Watson.

William J amieson, sworn a.nd examined.

966. By the Chai1·man.-You are chairman of directors of t he Blythe River Iron Mines Company Limited ?-Yes. 967. You gave evidence before a select committee on the Bonus Bill in September last ?-Yes. 96 8. The vie ws and statements you t hen gave and made are still yours 7-Yes.

969. I think Mr. Keats was chiefly interested in making the arrangements in England ?-Y es. H e was sent home two years ago, and has been t here nearly ever since. 970. H e was there a co uple of years w'hilst the negotiations were in suspense on account of t he parliamentary attitude not being decided on 'I-That is so .

971 . H e has ret urned lately 1- Y es; be has been here about two months. H e came back immediately he found nothing further co uld be done at t hat time. 97 2. His attendance, no doubt, can be procured as a witness?-Very easily, I should think ; he is in Sydney.

97 3. I suppose he is in a better position to speak as to t he suc cessful carrying on of the industry and tha possibility of securing the necessary capital ?-He is in the position that he has actually been in touch wit h financial people, and all financial a rrangements were left in his hands. No doubt he had a lot of information, but the s uccessful carrying out. of the undertaking under the conditions of the

47 \Villiam Jamieson, 18th February, 1903.

1473

Tariff and bonus as proposed depend entirely, of course, upon the expert opinion of Mr. Darby, who was brought out to A ustralia. Mr. K eats does not know any more about iron production than I do.

97 -!. He more with the fin a.nc ial aspect 1-Entirely with t l1e financial aspect. 975. Wheee is Mr. Darby 1-In England. 976. Are the prospects of successfully establishing the industry, if the Bill be passed, the same as they were when you last gave evidence ?-Practically t l1e same. There has been no indication of peo ple

"pulling out " in co nnexion with it; at the same time, if they wished, they could easily do so, on account of t he extreme delay. The are simply left as they were, without any finality being

come to. P eo ple a re willing to open negotiations again. 977. Y ou ha ve no fear of any want of successful negotiations if the terms proposed by the Government we re adopted 1-I have not. 978. You were inclined, when yo u last gave evidence, to favour a protective duty in the first instance1-Y es; chiefly because the bonus and the Tariff are not concurrent, and, speaking generally,

there is very little differ ence between the benefits co nferred by the two methods proposed. The bonus is merely temporary, and in this it is unlike t he bonus under t he Canadian Tariff. Financiers at home felt they wo uld be more satisfi.ed with a Tariff without a bonus, t han with a bonus and a 'l'ariff, as proposed in the Bill. ·when the matter is calculated out a bonus without a 'l'ariff is very little bett er than a Tariff alone.

979. The bonus is £250,000 '1-The bonus is £250,000, b ut it all depends on the output. No doubt the £ 250,000 is a subsidy, but , at the same time, it is evident that a Tariff, would at all events last for a certain number of years. 980. B y M.1· . J oseph Covk. - You would sooner have the system which lasted the .longed­

Decidedl y. In Canada t he Tariff is not only very much higher than t hat proposed in Australia, but t here is a ·much liLrger bonus wh ich lasts for ten yea.rs. Under the Austealian Bill the bonus is limited to £250,000, and by the time we started the work we would not ca1·e very much whether we had the bonus or not, so long as the Tariff was t here.

9 l. By the Chai1·man.-Natural ly, as business men, you look for as much encouragement as you can get 'I-No doubt. There are certain terms under which capital can be obtained, and, I believe, we could get it just as easily without a bonus, so long as t here is a Tariff. 982. That is a Tariff coming into opeeation immediately ?-Yes; and we would be quite willing

to stand on that. IN e came to that con clusion after a good deal of going into t he matter. 983. ""What percentage do you contemplate when you speak of a Tariff that wo uld satisfy you '1-The Tariff as originally proposed would average 15 per cent. 9 '4. That was what yo u hoped for?-We thought that would be the Tariff, and that is

what I heard t he Government proposed to do. The proposal was 15 per cent. for steel rails, and 10 per cent. for pig i1'on , with 25 per cent. for some things ; and if you look into it, it comes down to about per cent. Steel rails would be one of the largest items of our production, and on this the duty was

very neaely 15 pe r cent., and now it is down to 12t. It comes to t his : I feel pretty certain that we would be able t o make capitalists agree to per cent., if it averaged 12 per cen t . right through. The original intention of the GoYernment was, as I have said, 15 per cent ., and that is what we were to get the capital on.

985. Do you think that with a duty of 12 -2- per cent. you co uld make the industry do ?-I think that if the present proposals could be passed as they stand, we could make a "do of it. " 986. That is, instead of the duty coming into operation on proclamation, it should come into operation immediately makes no difference whether it comes into operation immediately, or whether it comes into operation when the wo rks are erected. If it came into operation immediately, it might

interfere with t he business of others. 987. When do you think the works would be in full blast after the passing of a law which iluited you and a half years; t hat is tlte estimate.

988. Do you still pin your faith to Blythe River 1- Yes. 989 . ·where do you propose to smelt t heore ?--In N ew South Wales, near Sydney. That is con­ sidered the best place, although Burnie, Tasmania, would actually be the eheaper place. vVe consider, however, that Burnie is not so good as a distributing point, and New South Wales has other advantages.

990. Such as access to the Australian market ?-Not only that, but we could make use of t he gases produced by putting up a large gas-engine plant. 991. By Mr. J oseph Cook.-You could utilize the waste products?--Y es, that co uld be done successfully near a large city. .

992 . Such as making chemicals d o not know whether that co uld be done. 993. By th e Ch ainnan.-I believe that, in your previo us evidence, you said your _company had acquired some property for t he purposes of works in New South vVales ?-vVe have acqmred property opposite Ryde, on t he P arramatta, alongside the railway. . . .

99 4-5. Did you give us your estimate as to the _consumption of coal m connexwn with the works 7-I belieYe the consumption wo uld run to oOO,COO tons. The actual consumptwn at the works, irrespective of steamers and in other directions, would be about 400,000 t ons, or about 8,000 t ons per week at t he works alone. . . . . .

996 . You have no doubt as to obtamm g quahty of coalreqmred for smeltmg 7-No. 997. You told us before, I think, that you est imated£1,109,000 as the total outlay to establish the works ?-Yes. 99 8. By J.Ir. Jo seph Cook.-You expect the producing capacity of those works to be 150,000 tons per annum ?-Yes. . .

999 . I think you previously told us that the reqmren:ents of A ustraha at the present ti!pe are 140 000 tons ?-No ; t ha.t is the requirements of the Australian Governments only. ' 1000. Have you looked up Cog hlan on the question ?-I believe we did, but it is difficult to get at t he real figures. W e took the trouble of going to the Government books, and I can give you

\Villia.m Jamieson, 18th February, 1903. 48

so mething which Mr. Darby brought a,s sufficiently correct for om purposes m connexion with the kind of stuff we can produce. The figures are as fo llow :-B'lPOlnS. -----

1 y,·, tol· ,·e I N S \'' I Queenslan d. : I I

State Stote ., . t 7 f \i'.A. Ta smrcnia Totals at 1s t Tota's 1800

- " I ' · · ,. · State S. A. State 1 • Register. 0 Reg ister. I (Estimated). 1 Jul;·, 1903. ' J '' ' ----------------------------------------------------- ----------------· Galvanized sheets ... 10,701 10,062 6,099 6,261 5,066 3,000 G5,003 41 ,189 Bhtck sheets .. . ... 2,116 . .. ... ... .. . ... 3,255 2.116 Bars and rods ... .. . 10,453 10,000 3,958 4,729 ... 250 48,300 31,300 R. girders ... ... 1,626 1, 565 892 268 .. . 200 7,000 4,551 Hoops .. . ... 1,144 2,003 1,141 445 ... 100 7,430 4,833 Pig iron ... ... 8,159 9,009 5, 135 9,074 1,430 500 51 2±0 33 307 w.r. pipes ... ... 5,090 { 10,709 W.&C. 6,104} W.&C . 1,0!3 r 1 ,8oo } \W.&C. 1,000 39,563 25,7)6 Plates ... 4,568 6,689 { 3.8 12 7471 102 250 24,874 16,1 68 ... ... P. &S. P. &S. j Rails ... ... .. . 27,300 21,182 12,073 3,505 2,753 2,000 105,860 68,813 Wire 2,166 { 13 percent.} ... .. . . .. 12,821 20,142 11,408 of N.S.W. 500 73,900 . 48,037 1,000 *At this date, when the works should be read y to start, I estimate that the imports will have increased to the totals g iYen in this column. 1001. Do you produce these figures as t he basis of your proposition 7-That is so; that is part of Mr. Darby's report to us. I have another for 1900, and the figures run into £6,627,000 of different iron and steel products. 1002. By llh. L. E. Groom.-The consumption for one year ?-Yes. 1003. By Mr. llfcCay.-Is that Australian or State consumption 7--It is the consumption throughout the Commonwealth. A very large number of these things will not be mad e in this country for a number of years to come, because there is not enough demand to justify the erection of the necessary plant. Mr. Darby has in his mind the amount of material brought out in a big way which we could be able to supply. In connexion with large works other works may be established, such as those for the manufacture of galvanized iron. There will also be cast-iron pipemakers, wiremakers, tin platemakers, and so on, and the figures of Mr. Da,rby are merely to gi,-e some idea of the large amount required in Australia. 1004. By the Chairman.--That is of the consumption of iron in every shape 1-Yes. 1005. By M1·. Joseph Cook.-Are you aware that Co,r;hlan states that the total amount of pig iron required for Australia is 140,000 tons?--I was not aware of that ; I did not think it was anything like as much, but that it was more like 40,000 tons. 1006. I am speaking of the pig iron required for all our requirements 7--'I.'h:J,t is another thing altogether. 1007. Our total pig iron required, according to Coghlan, is something like 140,000 t ons ?-You must have made some mistak"l, or Coghlan is entirely wrong, because the State Governments use nea rly as much as that in steel rails. About 100,000 tons are required for ;steel rails, and 56,000 tons for galvanized sheets, with 40,000 tons for wire. It would take about 230,000 tons of pig iron to produce those manufactured articles here. 1008. Are the figures you have· given the actual importations for tl1e year 1899 ?-The fig ures are got out of the Customs books. I went to a -great deal of trouble in getting them, a.nd found much difficulty because of the different methods adopted in the various States. But all the figures went to show that a very large quantity was used. 1009. Have you any idea what the market for pig iron nlone would be ?-The present market for • pig iron is, roughly, 40,000 tons; but the reason for that is that steel rails, sheets, and all such things are imported. I reckon that the amount of pig iron required for the 250,000 tons of finished ironwork will run into 300,000 tons of pig iron. Some years the quantity would run to much more; but it will require 450,000 tons of actual pig iron to supply what is required for the manufactured finis hed article in Australia. 1010. Mr. Jamieson says, for in stance, that h.is company desire to produce tons of pig iron themselves ?-That is the e timate of the capacity of the works; hut, as Mr. Darby says, the works will be laid out so that they may be enlarged. 1011. But you think there will be at least that consumption ?-Very much more. 'Wi th present contracts, the Government's consumption alone is at least 150,000 tons- that is, of rails, sheets, plates, and girders which the different Governments use. We will require, therefore, in order to meet the Government consumption, to turn out 150,000 tons. W e do not expcd that these are to be the only works in Australia. If, to start with, we put up works to turn out 150,000 tons of pig, that will be enough for a time so far as we are concerned. Othet· works, no doubt, co uld get a certain amount of work. vVe would not stop at pig iron, but would have rolling mills, and manufacture steel plates and steel ingots. 1012. In fact, you would go in for all kinds of iron production 7-- vVe would not go m for galvanizing, tin plating, or wire working.

1475

49 W. Jamieson, 18th February, 1903.

1013. You would, for instance make girders and other large wo l'lc?-W e should make girders. . 1014. Bolts and nuts 1-No; t hat would be a separate industry. We should not go in for pipe­ makmg. I may say we have offers from people at home to put such subsidiary works alon{)'side or as neat· as possible our ' vorks. They would take our sheets and galvanize or tin-plate them ; "we would supply what may be called the middle raw product.

101 5. I understand that the la, test process of manufacture of steel is t hat all is done in one pro­ cess from the ore is done right through as nearly as possible without allowing th e stuff to get

cold. . 10 16. The ore is put in the furnace and co mes out steel 7- Not out of th e furnace, but it is got

m a state which would be pig if it were allowed to cool. It. is passed right through hot t o the steel furnace. 1017. And when it comes out finally it is steel 7- Y es, before it is cold . 1018. Therefore there is only one process in th e manufacture of steel 7-I would not call that one

process, though it goes through from start to finish. 1019. In your former evidence you told us that you wo uld be satisfied with a duty of 15 per cent. at t he various stages where that impost co uld be made; you want 15 per cent. on pig iron as such, and 15 p r cent. when t hat iron is turned into steel never said anything of the kind.

I understood you to say that your company would b e satisfied if they co uld get the duty

brough t into operation immed iately without a bonus 7-Y es; the qualification was that the duty stands a. n ow. 1021. By the Chainnan.- Y ou would be satisfied that t he duty should commence when the works are there 7-Y es.

1022. By it!?-. J oseph Cook.-You would be . satisfied with the duty as it stands in the Tariff A ct 7-Y es. 1023. vVill you look at question 685; does that not mean t hat you want the duty to be

cumulative 7- N o ; you cannot have accumulative du ties ; you on ly get a certain amount of protection. 1024. In answer to question 685-" \Vhat does that you replied-" 15 per cent. ad

valorem; 15 per cent. upon pig iron mea.ns so much, and a similar rate upon steel would, of course, mean so much more; I mean 15 per cent. upon the article at the time of the impost" 7-That is quite right, and I will show you what I mean. Supposing we did not make steel, but turned the stuff into pig iron; we have to run t he stuff into th e fumace for t hat, and we get 15 per cent. protection on the pig iron. If we run it into steel ingots or steel rails we get· 15 per cent. on that product. But we do not get 15

per cent. on one and also on the otheL This is a duty, and not a bonus; if the question were ask ed in regard to a bonus I could understand it . In Canada they get 12s. 6d. for every ton of pig and for every ton of steel produced from the pig. 1025. I wanted to he clear as to whether you were not thinking of the Canadian system 7- That only affects the a nd not the Tariff ; the Tariff is only a protection which everybody and anybody gets. If we are to get the benefit for the manufacture of steel, we will not get it unless we manufacture steel.

. 1026. When, in reply to question 685, you say it will "mean so much more," you mean the value of the in got will be so much more than the value of the pig ?-The cost of production will be so much more. 1027. By J/1 ·. Watkins. - Do you think there is any possibility of your company competing successfully without a duty or· a bonus ?-All I know is that we cannot mise t he money to create the company or erect t he works unless we have a duty ; t hat is t he sum total of the whole thing. I cannot

say anything about wh ether it will or will not pay ; that is a matter for the fut ure, and for expert evidence. But we cannot raise the money unless we get protec tion. 1028. A re those lodes in Tasmania equal to anything you have seen in England ?-They are better than anything I have ever seen. There is another big deposit in South Australia, but

t he Tasmanian is th e biggest I have seen. 1029. I s the South Australian ore of the same class as that you have in Tasmania 7-Yes j it is hematite, and very good ore. .

1030. By 11£1-. L. E. Croom.-And is the South Australi::tn ore equally good for smelbn ct purposes ?- I dare say it is. I have never seen the mines; but I do not believe really that you can get t here so large a quantity of ore as can be got at Blythe River. The latter also beats the other on the score of position and accessibility. .

1031 . By the Chctinnan.- Blythe River is close to the sea 7- W e are 5 miles from the sea, and 500 miles from Sydney; while the other deposit i:;; 40 mil es from t h e sea, and 1, 250 miles from 0 1032. By 11!£?·. Watlcins.-Do iron manufacturers f rom England . not convey ores co.nsid erably longer· distances than those you have mentioned 7- Y es; t he furtlwc; t pomt from whJCh ore IS taken to England is Spain, though a little is imported from America. . . 1033. By Jl!b-. McCay.-I s not a good deal of Swedish ore Im ported mto England ?- A good dea.l, but th e imported ore is chiefl y Spanish. . . . 1034. By Jib· . Watkins.- Have you considered the questwn of frc1ghts-that IS, the usual charge for exports to Australia from England and America?- Y es.. . 1035. What do th ey generally run ?- I t depends entirely upon ctrcumstan?es, t hey vary very much. F or instance, if a sailer or steamer is going f rom Glasgow to the for t rm ber, and .takes pig-iron for " stiffening," the freight may be as low as 2s. or 3s. pel' ton ; while If you "a1 .1t a special lot of, say, 100 tons, as I did on one occasion, it willru.n to 13s. 6d . per ton, and may go as lugh as l 5s. 6cl. It all depends on how you ship, and when the stuff I S wanted. . . 1036 . By J111·. J oseph Cook. - What would ?ther· .he?- Very httle; the quotatwns are generally f. o.b. You may reckon t he a:erage on p1g 1ron will run m to lO.s per ton. . , . 1037. Where does the Glasgow 1:-ng a·on come from 7- From not very far away, BaH·ds bemg the biggest place, about 20 mile:; dist::mt. I haYe neYer been through the mill s, but t here are mn.ny places F.1050l. :E

,V. Jamieson, 18th P elwuar.1·, 1903. 50

not far nway from Glasgow where t hey manubcture 1ron. In t he matter of freights, steel mils are affected in t he way t o some extent. vVb en we we re bringing out mils for a speci;Ll railway, it cw;t 25s. per ton to land them a t Burnie. A nd yet t he N ew Sout h Wales Gove rnment showed me t hat their ave rage rate for importing rails over t en years was 12s. 6cl. per t on. It is a, mat ter of when and how

yo u want the 'l'he Go vernmen t a rc a,lways wanting rails, a nd they mak e special arrange­

ments, and, in some instances, get t h e mils brough t al most fo r paying for putting them on board. I have known people get as much as 2s. per ton for placing stuff on board as dead weigh t . I 038. Added t o the 12s. Gel. per t on , tl10rc are also t he clu es and charges at the other end ?­ Everything is quoted. h ee on board.

l 03\) . I am t alking ab out additions to t he prime cost 7- It migh t a mount to 4s. or 5s. At

Middlesbrough they ship material n.t a cost of J s. or 5s., and sometimes 3s. or 4s. 1040. B y Jl!1· . Watkins.-\ Vill £ 1 covet' the whole thing 7- 0n R.n average tha t would cover t he cost of freigh t, insurance, &c. 10 4 1. B v Jlb-. J oseph Cook. - And t h e same wi th pig iron ?- 'l'here is a great difference in the han dling ; pig i ron is chucked in anyhow.

1042. No. They h ave to place it ?-But i t is very easily handled. The value of it is less, and there is plenty of it a t home to be shipped.

1043. B v Jlf?o. JV atkins.- You say you ar e thinking of esta.blishing the works close to Sydney ?­ That is our intention. We have estimates for both B urnie and Sydney. We have looked a t

1044. Bv the Chcti1'1nan.-But there would not be t he same facilities for distribution at Burnie 1 - No.

1045. B y Jlfr. Wa tkins.- And t hat is your chief reason for choosing Sydney?-Y es ; and there is also t he fact that we should make use of a amount of t he waste products. At Burnie there

would be no room for that . At the lat t er place we have bought all the flat land a t the mouth of the river which can be procured, ·and there is not more than would be required for our works. 1046. By Jlb ·. J oseph Coolc. - I understand you propose to ha ve special barges built to convey the ore '!--There are special whale-back ships or stea mers built for carrying ore ; and, of course, they would do for carrying coal.

1047. Have you made any·estimat e of the cost per ton of carrying the ore to Sydney ?-The vessels I have des cribed ca rry ore at a very low rate in America. It is almost impossible to believe it, but they carry ore 800 odd miles at 2s. 1d. per ton. •

104R. Carnegie's coal is carried 80 miles on the railway for i o of a cent. per ton per mile'!-­ Something like t hat. vVhen passing through America, l\fr. D arby got the contract cost of getting Lake Superior ore to Pittsburg, and it was under 6s. , including 300 miles by rail. 1049. And a truck can take 50 tons?-"\Vith the easy grades there may be 500 tons in a

train load. 1050. By jJ[r. W atlcins. - I s it your opinion that the whole of this industry will practically r asolve itself into the hands of one firm who will supply all Australia 1- I do not think so, because there is bound to be a certain amount of competibon as things go on . The people of South Australia might come to the conclusion that it was time for them t o make use of their advantages; while Mr. Sandford at Lithgow considers he also would be able to start.

1051. It appears t hat differ ent people are after money in England for the development of the industry. Assuming you were successful, would other people, in view of the prospect, be likely to be successful alongside you ?- Their opinion is t hat they would; I do not know. 1052. By Jl£1·. J oseph Coole. - You, of course, would try and stop competition 7-They wou ld try to stop us I expect.

1053. By 111-. IV atkins.- vVould not one works supply the wants of all Australia ?- Iron works big enough, no doubt, would. 1054. \Vould t he works require to be of abnormal size to do so 7-No. 1055. Could not Carnegie supply, in a week, more tha,n we could use in t welve months ?­ I would not say that, but h e could supply more than we want. Our works would supply 150,000 tons a year, and A ustralia requires practically nearly t hr ee times that amount.

l055A. By ,Job·. Watson.- If all the loc::tl m;1chinery were manufact ured from local iron there would be plenty of room for expansion ?-In Queensland, Conclurry there is a splendid iron deposit. 'l'hen there is South Australia where we find a very fine body of ore, and there is N ew South Wales and, no doubt, vVestern Australia. The local freights are so heavy that people in those States may be induced to create works, a nd coal mines might be found close to t he large iron lod es, and so on.

1056. B ut you would require a certain output before it would be profitable to work 7- It would have t o be a good output. -

1057. And local consurnption would not be sufficient for the establishment of extensive works?- · I do not know ; it depends on what you call local. I 058. Take the State of Queensland for example 1- Queenslancl is an immense territory wl1ere iron and steel would be used. I only know that i t is better to start where the population is thickes t and where most of th e st uff is used. ·

1059. Have you gone into t he q uestion as to where you will be able t o export from Australia in the e vent of your getting the works established ?-To som e extent I have. When we were first looking into the question a gentleman, who was cons ulting engineer in connexion with a rail way being built in E cquador, South AmericR., and who was in tere .>ted in this sort of thing, came to see our mine. The gentleman was calling for tenders for about 100,000 tons, a nd he said tha t if we had been at work we

:)l

1477

\V. Jamieson, 18th Fchr uar .1·, 1003.

ough t to ha ve been successful in that co nnexion, because in America they have to send to the sea coast and come round Cape Horn to get to Ecquador. Had we been acL ua ll y at work we woulrl have CYOt that contract, and specLking on thill subject, M r. Da rby says:-0

Steel mils ],;t,·c rccen Lly (No ,·c mbc t· 1900) beo 1t sent from You ngstown, O!t io, for t ltc 1\'cw %calancl <; 01·ernment. 'l'he d istance is :1bout 12,000 milcR, while from Sydney it is 011 iy I, 170 m iles. . Jt wi ll be noticed hy a g la nce at the following. table, whel'c the :1 pprox imatc d istances arc g i1·cn, Umt Sydney tS fa 1·?mbly for t he supply of steel 111 the east. t han n,ny other producing point. The Union I ron

and Steel \\ Ol'ks, San l• m ncJ. ·co, arc at present 111 t ho poRitiO n. San Francisco to Hong Kong Syd ney to Hong Ko 11 g Sha ng ha i

B:1tavia Calcutta Bombay

,, Cape Town

Li I'O l'[J OOl to Calcutta ,

Bat:1via Hong -l( on g New %cabnd

U,O l !} N.l\1. 4 GUO ,

4: G40 ,

H,870 ,

5,8 10 "

() ,110 (), 1:37 7,GGH , by Canal

ll , ::17!) , by Cape

,

12,776 "

11 ,():2:) by i.Ja pc Horn

l OGO. Can you say wh ether your expert opinion as to the probable cost of p rod uction justifies the impression tluLt you wou ld be nble to co mpeLe with American a,nd other manufacturers, su,y t hat your work s :1re established and in working order ?- If we we re in fu ll swing and saw a chance of cutting in for 20,000 or 30,000 tons of steel mils, we migh t go on :1t hi gh pressure, and might be able

to compete. Many a tim e manufactu rers woul d sooner take a low contract, in ordC' t' to keep th eir men goin g. As to making m u ·h money in competing with America, tlutt wou ld depend on t he state of aHlLirs at t he t im e. If American manufacturer · were fu lly employed, t hey migh t not care to put in a low tender ; but otherwise they migh t put in such a low on e as t o mn,kc it almost im possible for us to de

B ut, as I say, our works were not fu lly employed, and we sttw a chance of running at :1 high

rate of speed and keeping our men in wo rk , no do ubt we mi ght get so me of t hose contracts, especially if China goes :1h ead . I feel it quite on the cards that we would "come in " sometimes. lO G l. By Jl!? ·. Jll cCay.-Y ou cout.emplate doing t hat at special cutting rates, practically ?-- That migh t be so at a t im e when things were very slack, and we cou ld not fully employ our mills. If " 'e then saw :1 chance, we woul d be sure to cut in.

l 062. '\Vhatever your motive, you would do it at a cutting rate, as compared with Australian prices ?- That mi gh t or might not be; there might be others here to compete with us. B ut if t hings were slow, soo ner t han stop the works we would do at a low rate in A ustra li

1064 Not when conditions were normal do not t hink it possible when conditions are

normal. There can only be one opinion; before we n,ttempt to get outside contract.s we must have been running so me time, in order t o have fo un d our position. 1065 . Of course, all we ca.n go on is the evidence of experts, whose opinions ought to be valuable. You see no prospect at present , under norm al conditions, of A ustralian iron competing with outsid e iron 7-I would not say t hat ; if we get properly as works are in

A merica, I do not know but t hat we might compete. But \Ye do not propose to put up works la,rger than a re necessary t o supply A ustrnJia. 1066. So long as you get the demand, th e larger th e works t he cheaper t he cost of That helps t o make things cheaper when t he wo rks are in full swing. Onr idea is to put up works for

this co untry; and from a certain u,m ount of curiosity we had that list of distances made out . 1067. A nd you thin k t hat Sydney has special geographical advantages 7-Yes. B ut whether local circum stnnces will permit of our benefi ting by t h ose advantages is another thing. 1068 . I t hink you stated that if you had a duty of 15 per cent. you would not insist on :1 bonus as a prelimiuary?-The bonus at present as suggested is l :3s. 6d . per ton, and if you take per cent. on, say £ 6, it is about l 5s. W e only g-et l2s. 6d. as a bonus and no duty. In th e matter of steel rails

we are better off under a Tariff of 12-& per cent .; but , as to pig iroll, we would get 12} per cent. on, say, 70s., or Ss. Gel. But as we do not intend to produce a large quantity of pig iron, the Tariff is practically better than t he bonus. I do not think we shall produce more than 30,000 or 40,000 tons to be sold as pig. The duty and t he bonus come dow n so close that they wo ul d be the same. .

1069. So taking it all round, wit h t he duty of 12} per cent., and no bonus, you could go on w1th the work ?-Quite as well as with the bonus when they are not concuiTent. The bonus makes so little difference t h at we would prefe r t he 'rariff. 1070. In making up the estimate of the probable output did you look for any demand from any other State t han that in which t he works a,re sit uated ?- 1;v e should expect to be reasona,bly treated by t he other States. Supposing th e other State Governments cnllcd for world·wide temlers, and our tender

was equal to one outside, we should exp ct to receive the preference. 1071. I n t his connexion , have you considered the effect that freights beill'een Sydney, where your works are proposed, and South Australia, \ ¥ estern Australia, parts of l:aYc

in bringing you m.ore nearly into competit ion, or more evenly mto compehtwn w1th outs1de u·ou Y es. •

1072. That is t he freight between Sydney and Ft·emantle would reduce your advantage of 15 per cent. considerably would affect us very much. But it would not affect us to such an extent as might at fi rst appear in connexion with special lots. If \Vcstem Australia required 10,000 tons of steel rails we sh ould immediately charter a vessel specially, Ol' make some arrangements \\'ith a vessel as to get f reigh t cheaper.

107 3. B y the Chai?·num.-You wou ld haYe time to look round ?- Certainly; by the time Lhc rails were wan ted we would very li kely have hold of a vessd under some armngement. E 2

'"· Jamieson, 18th February, 1903. 52

1074. By .llf1·. Winter Cooke.-I understand that yo u do not think the company co uld live with out a protective dut.y 1-I do not think so. 107 5. H ow long do you think it would take before the company would be able t o supply Australia with all the iron required 7-W e should expect to be able to supply half, or perhaps a little less than half, within two or three years .from t he time t he works were finished.

1076. In the meantime, in regard to the other half, the consumer would be paying more for his iron than he would pay if there was no duty 7-I would not say that. I should not t hink that he would. It is rather an intricate business. W e propose t o produce only certain classes such as pig iron and steel rails. All other classes of machinery or special fini shed articles will very likely be made abroad for many years to come, and they have always had to pay duty. Boilers, engines, and those classes of machinery have to pay duty at the present time.

1077. It would be some years before any company co uld supply A ustralia with all the iron such a company could make 7-It would be some time. B ut t he quantity we produced would be very nearly as much as would be required of that class, such as rails, sheets, and girders. 1078. Then why do you want protection if things are still coming a ll the .·ame7-Th ere would be other things; a great deal of them will no t be made in this country for many years to come because they are specialities. 'l'he curious point is that in every part of the world this industry has been assist ed, and Australia has no reason to be in a different posit ion from t hat of any other country. The precedent is so strong for giving assistance by means of the 'l'ariff or otherwise, t hat t he effec t is that we can not raise money without such assistance.

1079. The duty yo u ask for is merely an estimate 7-Y es. 1080. Then it may be found t hat t his guesswork of 12f or 15 per cent. is not suffi cien t 7-I would not call it mere g uess \vork. Men, before they were prepared to put down t heir money, sent out an experienced man to get t he necessary data. That gentleman was introduced to this co untry merely as a nominee of others at home. vVe had the paying of his accounts, but he was nominated by those at home as the man who could give them the best opinion. ·

1081. W e are aware t hat the estimate was carefully made ; but, t he industry having been es tablished, if the estimate were proved to be wrong, what would happen-an application for more duty 'l--In going into a business of this description or any new business, you cannot make a dead certainty; you have to run risks. What you mean is t hat there is a possibility we might ask for more duty.

1082. That has been t he ex perience in Victoria, at all events 7-That may be; but I cannot look into t he future. 1083. That is a danger I wish to point out '!--Then t he best thing would be to make t he duty 20 per cent. at once.

1084. In reply to Mr. Watson, I think you said there was no hope whatever of private enterprise starting this industry without the assistance of the State 7-N one. 1085. By jlf1·. L . E. G1·oom.-You wo uld be satisfied with a duty of per cent. on every item on the list you handed in 7-Tha t would be an average. At t he time that list was made out by Mr. Darby t he idea was that we were to get a duty of 15 per cent. and a bonus, the two to be concunent. But under the arrangement which was made just before the recess the duties will average about per cent.

1086- 7. That list shows the articles which it is contemplated will be manufactured at the works? - Yes; all the middle raw material we should prod uce, from which other articles co uld be manufactured. 1088. And you say t hat if you got on an average a duty of per cent . instead of bonus you wo uld be satisfied 7--Y es.

1089. Your idea, of course, is that the Tariff will be fix ed for some time 7-Y es, the works will be created under the idea that t he Tariff will last for a long time. 1090. By the Ghai?"'lnan.-I do not understand you to say that you would be satisfied with I 2! per cent. on the manufactm·ed article, and do not want any duty in respect of the middle raw material 7

- Oh no ; our business would be to produce those middle raw materials. 1091. A nd leave Rubsidiar·y and more developed to separate peopl e ?- Certainly.

(Taken ctt M elbourne.) THURSDAY, 19TH F EBRUAHY, 1903.

Commissione1·s p1·esent : The Right R on. C. C. KINGSl ' ON, Chairman, Mr. J oseph Cook, · I l\1r. McCay,

Mr. Cooke, Mr. vVatkins,

Mr. L. E. Gt·oom, M r. Watson.

vVilliam Sandford, managing director of E skbank Ironworks, Lithgow, New South W ales, swor n and examined. 1092. By the Cha?:1' ?1Wn.--Wh ere do you live7-At Lithgow, in New South Wale . . !093. I understand you have been resident in New South Wales for 20 years 7-Yes. 1094. You had so me experience in iron · manufactm e before you came to Australia?--Y es, con­ siderable. I was sent ou t as the representative of one of the most successful ironworks of t he old co untJ·y, those of Mr. J ohn Lysaght, to star t t heir works on t he P arramatta Hiver.

1095. You started those works 7-I did. 1096. You were connected with them for some time ?-For two years, and until there was a n opportunity to take up t he ironworks in Australia, which t hey were about closing. I suggested to Mr. Lysaght t hat he should take up t he works at Lithgow and go on wo rking t he two places. H e wrote back to say that their ow n interests were so great that t hey would no t do it for the present. My reason for suggesti ng t hat he should take the wo rks was this: The Government often wanted

53

1479

W. Sandford, • 19th February, 1903.

gauges and sizes n.nd lengths of galvanized iron which could not be obtained here, ttnd consequently the orders for that iron went elsewhere. I suggested that we should put down a couple of mills there to make what could not be had in Australia, and thereby retain all the trade in our own hands. Mr. Lysaght did not agree with the suggestion, and I then said tbttt if in six months' time he would send somebody out to relieve me I would take up the works. My successor cttme out and I took up the works. I rented them for seven years with the power to purchase, and before that time expired I purchased the works, and have carried them on ever since.

· 1097. Those a re the E skbank Ironworks at Lithgow 'I-Yes. When I went over the works at Lithgow I was satisfied from t he position of the coal, limestone, iron ores, water, clay, and sand, that sooner or later, taking into

have paying during the last three or four yean; an average amount of £1,000 per week in wages and sa.lanes, and £ 10,000 per year in railway freights, up to t he last twelve months, wh en the supplies of scrap iron, which was our raw material, failed, and, as a consequence, the works have only been carried on intermittently since.

109R. I desire to know the nature of the operations carried on at the Eskbank works. Do you produce pig iron from the ore at E skbank 7- No; there is no pig iron made from the ore in Australia. 1099. You might indieate the nature of the works you conduct there 1-When I started the works there were immense quantities of raw material availttble in the shape of scrap iron. The Railways

Commissioners in N ew South Wales had thousands of tons of it., and I have seen some of it sold at as low as 5s. per ton. The advantage of having the coal at Lithgow, and of being able to take the scrap iron available there, is what induced me to establish the ironworks there. Since then we have been using the old material purchased from the Ne w South Wales Govemment, and I have made contracts with them at times for as much as 10,000 tons and 7,000 tons at a time, to be delivered as we wanted it where it

was to be worked up. 1100. Delivered

there is very little wrought-iron scrap to be had. 1101 . As to the rates; may I say that the terms you got in the first instance for the delivery of tbe material

say t hat the price has advanced from time to time until our last contract for old rails with the New South Wales Government was at £4 16s. 6d per ton. 1102. By .Mr. L. E. G1·oom.-That is simply for the raw material which you have known to be sold at one time at 5s. per ton 1-Yes.

1103. By the Chai1·man. - The advance in price has of course increased the difficulty of your trade ?-Certainly. Victorian rails now purchased h er e are tttken to Sydney or Newcastle, according to the best freights offering, and then taken on to Lithgow by train. To show the disadvantages under which we are working, we have now to pay 2s. 6d. per ton wharfage at Sydney, ls. 6d. per ton for unloading and putting the material on the trucks, and Ss. per ton freight to Lithgow by rail. That makes lls. 6d per ton, and then we h

1104. vVere you previously permitted to deliver t he manufactured article at a lowet· rate ?-Never under lOs. 6d. per ton to Sydney. The figures I have given show that the New South vVales Railways Commissioners must be making a profit on our contracts ; because they take empty trucks to Lithgow and bring back coal in them to Sydney for 4s. 3d. per ton, while we take loaded trucks at Ss. per

ton to Lithg0w, and send the same trucks back to Sydney with iron at lOs. 6d. per to1i freight. This that there has been a good profit to the railways on the traffic to and from Lithgow. . .

1105. vVill you describe the industries you are carrying on there?-We take the scrap Iron mto the works at one end, and cut it up with powerful shears. We mix it in the furnaces into the bloom, ttnd then with a powerful hammer we hammer and roll it off into rough bars. We pile those bars one on top of another and we work them again three or four times over according to the quality of iron wanted.

Every time the material is worked there is a considerable wast e, and, taking an average, from 26 to 27 cwt. of scrap iron and rails aoes into the works for every ton of finished iron coming out. So that we have to pay a freight of 8s. ton on the extra 7 cwt. of railway scrap iron for ea?h of

manufactured iron. vVe make it into bars from -1--in. rounds up to 4-l; inches and mtermedtate stzes, and into squares and plates of half-an-inch, and roll everything between that and 12 inches wide of any thickness wanted. according to the orders received. vVe roll t ees, and channels. vVe the

bars from the bar mills to the sheet mills, and there eonvert them mto :;heets. I expect the bar m1lls to nmke a little profit fot: the sheet mills. vVe usually roll .sheets to sizes. For instan.ce, the R ailways Commissioners, for their baffler plates , get a certain size 3-nd and have thmr We

roll iron required for the Government in all sizes which arc not kept m stock m 1hen we make sheets, galvanized and corrugated sheets. We take the sheets ?ver to the galvamzmg department, and they are there pickled, galvanized, and corrugated, and packed mto t he t rucks.. Then we have put down a powerful plant, and one of the best in Australia, for the manufacture of sptkes for the Government. W e have a contract with the Government for railway dog- spikes, and we keep stocks of them at the works. W e guarantee to k eep 100 cases always in hand, and when they want them they send

up to us for them. 1106. By Jlf?·. JlfcCctv.- What would be the weight in each case ?-They go about six cases to the ton. We have recently established a large shop 360 fe et long, for making points and crossings for the Government. vV e fi tted it with machinery costing over £5,000, and we made some 50 sets. U nfor­

tunately, it was a mistake. l thought t lt at when we had the bl ast furnace and made rails there wol.lld

• W. Sandford, lilth FelJl·uary, 1003 54

allmys be short which could go into points and crossings, but though we have t lt e latest appliances there for the purpose, unfortunately tho works arc idle. W' e h:we our own smiths' shop and eugineo ring shop, and at one part of the works I have my own brickyard, where I make my own fire bricks, mH.l ordinary bricks. At anothei' part I have my own colliery, of which I produce a photograph. I raise my own coal close to the works, and it comes clown to the works by gravitation. 'l'here arc, as I ha\·e sa.icl, also the bar mills, sheet mills, spike-making shop, railway points ancl crossing8 shop, and galvanized iron works. A s the works are established, scrap iron comes in at one end :mel the manufactured article goes out loaded OJL trucks at the other encl. I omitted to say just n ow, on the 1-mbjcd of the freights upon the finished iron that, iron sent from Lithgow to the west is catTiod

1107. Do you that they carry iron cheaper west from Sydney than from Esbank ?-Yes, cheaper in proportion to the mileage. 'l'he freight per ton between Sydney and Bourke is 40s., while our freight is 38s. 6d., or something like that. That give t1 s an advantage over Sydney of on ly 1s. 6cl. per ton. 1108. How many mile;; is L ithgow from Sydney miles, and Sydney is the port.

I may say that, seeing that quantities of steel Ecrap could be had at a reasonable rate, I got a Siemens­ lVIartin Steel furnace there about two years ago. I thought we co uld convert the steel scrap into steel blooms and billets, which we had imported, partly of manufactured steel, and rolled into sizes that are wanted. I believe we could make it cheaper, but I had some trouble with t he men who came to work it up, and I found we co uld import steel blooms and billets cheaper than we could make ther!l there, and so I stopped the work, and paid the passages of some of the men back again. If I could have had the cheap pig iron we want, the steel furnace would have gone on, and larger steel furnaces would have ·been erected.

1109. You feel that the great disadvantage in your business is the want of a cheap supply of ·pig iron ?-Certainly ; that is what we are starving for. 1110. You are relying upon imports ?-vVe can import blooms and billets of steel and roll them. ·The day before I came away a gentleman from B elgium C

works in Belgium with regard to the supply of sheet iron they are now rolling there, and he showed me that he could land sheet iron in Sydney at 15s. per ton cheaper than the bare cost of making it at Eskbank. 111 1. That is making it at Eskbank out of imported steel blooms an d billets?- Yes; and scrap mixed. vVe add a certain quantity of iron, which I need not explain to the Commissio n.

1112. If the manufactmed article can be landed here cheaper than you can manufacture from the -raw material you are out of it ?-That is how we stand to-day ; but if I could get cheap pig iron I should not care for anybody. 1112A. A local supply of pig iron would, in your opinion, be of great advantage to A ustralia?­

Yes. I should not care where in Australia it was made so long as I co uld buy it cheap. 1113. You have lately been contemplating the extension of your ironworks to include the manu­ facture of pig iron 1-Not lately, but for many years. I have always had it in view, because I have always believed that N ew South ·wales should be the home of the iron and steel industry of A ustralia ;

that is until we find out that there is room for half-a-dozen works in A ustralia. Of course we cannot confine the industry to Lithgow, but I say that, in my opinion, Lithgow is the best place. 1114. You have seen the proposals of the Government as embodied in the Bonuses fo r lVIanufac-tures .Bill. Do you think t hat the proposals for granting bonuses on the terms mentioned would -assist the establishment of the industry by inducing the investment of capital in these works?­ . Certainly ; and we should never get capital for the industry without some such encouragement. I can

ask members of the Commission whether if they were in a position to p ut £100,000 into this industry they would be prepared to do so without any encouragement. People are the same all over the world, and before they put money into a thing they want to know how their capital will be secured. 111 5. You are speaking not only from the personal view, but from your experience in connexion with these matters ?-Certainly.

1116. Have y'ou been home youn:;elf, 1\Ir. Sandford 1-I have been home three times during the last five years in connexion with this Yery matter, and I have made all inquiries . Before I decided to go into this concem I wanted to know how cheaply iron could be made in other parts of the world, and I have been through America anJ on the continent of Emope. I wanted also to see whether there .would be any doubt about our ores here and so foi'tb. I may mention that Mr. Enoch James, who is ·considered one of the best experts in England in t h e ma,nufacture of pig iron, was sent with t hree other

experts as commissioners appointed by the British Iron Trade Association to inquire into the iron, steel, and allied industries of the United States. I have here the reports of t he commissioners in a volume entitled--" American Industrial Cond itions and Co mpetition." At a cost to me of one t housand guineas Mr. James came out anrl went through Lithgow. He went down the coal mines, got the coal himself,

and made his own coke iu his own way, and never lost ;;ight of it. He went to Cm·coar, to Cowra, to Cadi

start the works. After getting his opinion to what co uld be done in Australia, I was satisfied that the of Now South 'VaJes would look after t he interests of t heir o·wn State, and I believed,

as I believed in my own exist e nce, that we should have had the Bonus Bill passed. 1\Ir. James brougl!t out various tenders for a blast fumace, :tnd rccommenclccl D:wey Bros. of Sheffield, who a re the la rgest onake t·s of this d asH of plan!". The blast ful'lliLCC was put in ha11tt the J3vnus Bill would be passed.

55 W. Sandford, February, 1n03,

1481

. 1117. You give proof that yon < LL'e as to the pos:; ibiiit,y of CKtctbli:;hiag the industry by the

lllYe;;tmen t of thi:; moncy?- I could give no better proof. I was willing to ri:;k the money. 'When I home I saw a gentleman connected with one of t he most successful ironworks in England, and he

.·a1d- " If your fi gures are righ t, and the Bonus Bill passes, we shall be prepared to J:mt moHcy into it."

This was on bottom tenus; I valued the work:;, and showed him my balance-sheets, and he said t lmt he and others could make up £250,000, and nameR co uld be got making up £750,000 if nece:;sary. \Vc nmde an agreement to spend £ 250,000, ctnd had books printed :1nd cve1·ything ready to take up the work u.t a ny t ime; but members of t he Commis:ion knew what the res ult was following upon the uncertainty

connected with th e Bill. 111 8. If the Bill wct·e to pas:; now, I suppose t hose negotiations have not bee11 broken off in any way7- No; if (,he Bill we re to pass now, I should cable at once to my son to immediately ship the blast funmce. \ Ve have a rranged with the owners of t he Ca,rcoat· property to take their iron ores at a low

royalty, hence my fi gures are sli gh tly different hom those of Mr. Jacquet with regm·d to t he cost of making iron. I may say that 1\'[r. Enoch J amol:l has been engaged in connexion wit h th e work evm· since, tmd I am payin g him 100 guineas per mont h, ::;o t hat all plans slmll be ready for coke ovem; on the latest Jnodorn principle, and everyt hin g cou ld go on at t he presen t time.

1119. H ave you personally examinerl the condition:; of the iron industry of other co untries ?­ Y es. 1120. You have been in America 7-Yes; I have been through [Lll the importa,nt iron i ndustries there ; and I ttLke in the reports and publications relating to the industry.

11 21. You have been in Canada also7-Yes. 1122. You make acquainted with the possibilities of your busine 7- Yes. I always try

to sec t he next best t hing to do. I have had the co urage to do it, hence my success. 11 23. The chief difficulty in conuexion with t he starting of the industry i:; t he getting of t he capital?-Yes; that is t he crux of the whole thing. 1124. And that is the d ifliculty which the bonus gets over7-Certainly, it secures the capit:d.

11 25 . The capital once secured an-1 t ho works started, you have no doubt ar; t o the future of the indu.-try 1-I should not be prepared to risk everything, as I am, if I had. 1l2G. Have you fo rmed any estimate as t o the cost of production of iron a t L ithgow ?-Yes, I have.

11 27. Are you prepared to reply to a question as to what your es tinJate of the cost ?- Y cs, I am. After supplying modern bla:;t furn aces, thoroughly well equipped , and ewry necessary appliance, from material already secured in t he shape of the iron ore, coal, tmd limestone', pig iron could be pro­ duced at Lithgow for under 35s. per ton.

1128. That, of cou rse, would be a rate which would enable you to compete with foreign com peti­ t ion 1-Y es. I may say that I f01·m ed my judgment in part from tho action taken by a member of the Commission when Minister for Mines in "'ew South Wales, in appointing .l\ir. J acquet to inquire into t he question. Mr. Joseph Cook has, in my opinion, done as much ot· more than any other man in New South 'Vales in connexion with thi l:l nmtter by appointing an expert like Mr. Jacquet to see what we have in Australia,. Jacquet's conciusions were confirmed by l\ir. Enoch James, and I mtty say that

when Mr. Enoch J ames was here we bad over a dozen applications outside of known properties from people willing to supply us with ore, show ing that the industry on ly wants to be set going for the manu­ facture of pig iron, to have a number of works started in A ustralia . The best thing ever done fot· the iron industry of Australia was what was done by :M:r. J-oseph Cook. It was action anticipating th e next

best thing to do, and it was done. 1129. B y il11·. McC'ay .- I am not quite sure that I understand what you mean when you say that pig iron could b e produced at Lithgow for under 35s. per ton. I s that taking everything into account 7-I give that as a n estimate of the net cost at Lithgow.

1130. B y the C'hcti1·man.-You n,ssume that the works shoold be established, and t hat wo uld of involve a large initial expenditure ?-Certainly. [To make pig iron alone you want a plant

involving an expenditure of from < £:. 100,000 to £125,000. 11 31. By Jllb-. Joseph C'oolc. - How many furnaces would that include1- ' Ve should only with one. The furnace we were goi ng to erect would turn out 500 tons per week; but the sa,me furnace would work up to 1,200 tons per week when required. vVe have machinery on the ground to

co nsume 12,000 to 1:3,000 tons of pi g iron per annum. It t

then the expense is practically all ·in ln,bour. A small sum must be allowed for royalty on ore and CO [Ll and for depreciation of machinery, and the rest of the expense is in labo.ur. .

1133. By })!? ·. J oseph Cook.-Your estimate of 35s. por ton IS on the ore

would be brought from Cadia 1-N o, from different parts around--Carcoar, Cowra, and Cadia. 113±. By Jlf r . Wa tson.- You are averaging the cost from those centres of !supply 7-

Yes. Taking the ores from the properties around which we Rec u.red. \\ the Ltst few

t here has beendiscovered a splendid deposit within fifteen 1ml e!-! of Lithgow, giVmg GG per cent. of Iron, with simply a trace of sulphur aud phosphorus. . .

1135. JJy the Chainnan.-l£ you yo.ur local works. unde.r the proposed,

with the advantage of a bonus ttnd a duty, do you t hmk It woulrlrewlt man mcrease 111 the locnl price of piO' iron or the reverse 1-The reverse. 0 11 36. You have no doubt of t hat?- T have not. 1 can speak from my own experience in starting wire netting works at Parramatta. \V c reduced the price by something like 20 per cent. The effect of making our own pig iron will be grea,t indeed. It would asHi st works as Clyde wo rks and other

iron industries. You will have noticed that South Australia had a contract for 9,000 tons of pipes. They cou ld be made at T"it hgow and shippNl from Rydney in Nr.t only Xl'w Rout h 'Vales,

h ut al l t,hc Htates would reap bcnef-ib from lw1·ing the ra11· Jnaterial of iron indudri(•f> madr-. One cannot calculnlc the ad vantages iu connexion witl1 cu,:; in ecring wurks ancl in other 11·np.

W. Sandford, 19th Februar,v, 1903. 56

11 37. You believe that a bonus is needed to induce capital to invest in t hese industries, and that afterwards, with a duty, you could compote and hold yom own '1-Certainly. 1138. And with the result of a lower price to the consumed--Yes; there would be works started in ccmnexion with the Blythe Hiver mines in Tasmania, in Queensland, and in South Australia. We should have iron works all round Australia. In the meantime we should be supplying pig iron to works in other places to mix with sc rap. Even in the matter of tin plates and galvanized iron alone,

there are sufficient importations into Australia to-day to give wm·k for 15 mills in New South w·ales, 8 in Victoria, 5 in South Australia, 4 in \Vestern Australia, 6 in Queensland, and 2 in Tasmania, or 40 in all. 11 39. You mean to say that the prospects of development are unlimited ?-Yes, I think so. I am sure that these mills would be started, but there is no use in putting up large works unless you can be sure that you will be able to sell the products of those works.

1140. I think you told us you had so me experience as regards the price of pig iron imported 1-Y es; in South Australia it is from 70 s. to 75s. per ton. It varies a good deal in the matter of freight. I have imported pig iron as a mixture for blooms in 100-ton lots, and some have cost me £5 5s. 1141. You require it for the purpose of working up scrap 7-Yes.

11 42. You have necessarily been a considerable importer of pig iron '/-Y es; some of it has cost me £5 per ton, but at other times it is cheaper. It is not so cheap now as it was six or.seven years ago. I know that pig iron has been purchased in the Sydney market at 5s. per ton over the home price. 1143. What is the home price ?-It varies a good deal-from 40s., and sometimes less, to 45s. and 70s. per ton according to the quality and demand. _

1144. Now with regard to the question of duty ?-It is per cent. on rails and 10 per cent. on pig iron; but then the Government get three-fourths of that ba,ck again. Whatever the duty, they calculate on getting three-fourths back, and a short time ago we lost a contract on that account. 1145. You think that the various State Governments under the proposal made would be directly benefited if you could get pig iron cheaper ?-I believe it would mean the development of the country as it has done in America, Canada, Russia, and Germany.

11 46 . You look upon the iron industry as one of the most important industries of a country?­ Yes. I may say that I believe t.hat Australia is destined to be the iron producer for all the islands of the Pacific, for Japan, and other places. 1147. You speak with the knowledge you have gained '/-With a knowledge of a subject I have made my study, and considering that we have in New South Wales, and chiefly about Lithgow, not only the coal and the iron ore, but fireclay and clay for ordinary bricks, sand, limestone, and an abundant supply of good water, water such as is rarely found, because boilers can be worked with it for twelve months without any incrust

1148. In short, there is nothing wanting to make. the esbblishment of iron manufacture success­ ful 7-Th ere is one thing wanted, and that is the bonus to secure -the capital to start these works; or in the alternative a certain duty guaranteed for a certain number of years. We have to look at the matter as business men.

1149. You have made it your business to look at thi> matter as a business man, and you give us the result of your observations and knowledge of the Yes; I have made a little money at

Lithgow during the last five years, but I have spent it in machinery, with the one idea in view, that some day we should have locally-made pig iron going in at one end of the works and coming out as the finished article at the other. W e might then go right on and keep the present works going, and as I have said, with the plant we have \ve can consume 15,000 tons of pig iron annually to-day.

1150. I do not suppose you have worked out any figures to show the savings to consumers here if we had had such works as these in full blast five years ago 7-I have given a little thought to that matter. Looking

Government contracts, and I could show you what they would have to pay if we could have got the raw material locally manufactured . ·

1151. By Mr. Winter Cooke.-Do I understand you to say that after the bonus is exhausted the industry co uld not live without a duty 7-vVe must have the duty to keep out consignments from abroad. I can show you how the matter works out in regard to consignments. I can give you an illustration. Twenty-five years ago I was at Home and we were rather short of orders; we wrote to a firm in London to give specifications for Sydney, Melbourne, and Adelaide. vVe made the stuff and sent it to London. Allowing tlie firm to draw 75 per cent. of the amount of the invoice, giving a letter of

indemnity and guaranteeing that if the account sales came back showing a loss we would pay it. It was sold in this market, and the account sales came back. I examined them myself, and know that the result was 50 per cent. of the London price at the time. There must be a duty, but that does not mean that the people would have to pay a higher price on account of that d'uty. I say the effect would be to cheapen the cost. That is my conclusion, though I have been trained as a free-trader. I may say that I came out with Captain Razon, t he British Commissioner for the New Hebrides, who had returned from Russia. I had some conversation with him, and I sin cerely believe that within the next ten years

we shall have to defend the shores of this country from a foreign enemy. That is a mn,tter which, in my opinion, requires consideration, and we should be in the position to make our requirements in peace or war. 11 52. In your opinion, there is no hope of an industry of the kind being established the help of a, bonus ?-That is so. If I ask whether, as business men, you would put money mto the enterprise 'lfithout a bonus, you will say thn,t you would not.

57

1483

W Sandford 19th February, i903.

1153. Can you give us any evide nce as to the cost of production in other iron centres ?- I can how you t he cost at whi ch it cau be made in other countries. In "American Industrial Conditions and Competition," to "hich I have referred t.o, you wi ll seC', at page 1 l 7, t hat in 1899 t.he cost of Bessemer iron at Pittsburg was compute<.! at 32s. ; later, you will see t hat t he total cost of materi als is

at_3-1s. In tho American l1 ·on Aye for 2 1st August, 1902, the co st of P itbbuq; No. I foundry

1ron JS g1 ve n at 36s. Gel., and wit h freigh t to New York at 3t:\s . Gd., and wmowhat less fur export. From New York it is stated hLtterly f reigh ts 011 pig iron vary ft-om to l 2s . per ton. Foundry iron made at Birmi11gham, in Alaska, is stated to cost 37s. 6d. Lon . They expect to hring down the cost of pig iron in A merica to 25s. per tou.

11 5-!. Is t hat on account of improved machinery 7--Y es; ou account of labour saving appliances. 11 55. I suppose t hese labou r saving appliances would be paten ted in t he UJJitetl States, and you would be unable to make use of t hem here 7- '\Ve shoukl certainly be able to make m·C' of them ; our plant would contain all t he lates t improvemrnts. In the report of the "Bri tish Jrou Trade Com mis­ sion," to which I have already referred, t here will be fou11d, at page 278, an estimate of the cost of Pittshurg iron in Great J:lritaiu, and th is the statement made-The questio n that is presented for t he conPidemtion of those wl1 o a rc stncl yin g the ll l[tl; CJ11'iro n the present and t he future of Ame rican ex ports Pcems to l.Je- How long can t he United Sttctcs con tinne to pay 7s. Gd. to lls. 6d. per ton for the railroad tmnsporl of iron,.,([ steel from to Lli c sea, plus ocean fre ights, and still make ,L profit on foreign trade? So far as I can judge of t he facts, the p resent po>itio n of the P ittsbu rg manufacturers in cu ltinLtiug Europe,Ln business will be approxima t ely us follows:-

E STBI.\TJo; o N Ol

Iron ore, per ton of pig iron ...

Co ke ... ... .

Lim estone Labour Sundries

Total

Add freight to seaboard, say Add sea transport , say . . . . ..

Add freig h t from Liverpool to indus trial centres of United Kingdom, say

T otal co st deli ,·erecl

... d.

24 6

Jl 0

0 l

2 0

l (j

39 l

8 6

!) 0

:3 0

5!) 7

Later on there is a reference to rail way freights, a nd it must be remembered that in America tl1 ey convey pig iron by rail for one-third of a penny per ton per mil e. 1156. By Jlfr. Watson.-Can you give us any estimate of wha t migh t be regarded tl1e ruling freights on pig iron between England and the main ports of t h e Commonwealth 7-No. Because so

much depends upon whether vessels .·want fl'eight or not. For in.·tance, during t he last three years I have paid freigh t varying from 25s. to 15s., and down to l Os. per ton. That is for raw material. I can men tion an instance in which I imported 600 tons of steel scrap from the in London. It was

put on lightet·s there, taken to London and put on board the ship, brought to Sydney and put i nto the baskets for l 3s. per ton. 1157. So far as you are aware, is there any great distinction between freights charged to the different ports of the Commonwealth from Liverpool, say ?-I cannot speak as to that. I do not t hink t here would be very much Jifference.

11 58. By Af?·. L. E. G1·oom .- Sydney and :Melboume would get better term lS, I suppose, than Brisbane or P erth 7-At certain times perhaps; but so much would depend upon whet her a ship wanted to go to those ports or not. · .

11 59. By Nr·. on your manufactured article between Lit hgow and Sydney is

1 Os . 6d. per ton ?-Y cs. 1160. I s t here

two or t hree trucks I could give them two or three train loads a week , I am sure t hey would meet us. 1161. By Jllr·. JlfcCcty.-I£ you sent a train load instead of a truck load ?-J-ust so. l 162. By Jb-. Watson. - Can yo u gi ve us any information as to the freights from Syd ney to other ports of the Commonwealth believe th e freight to Melbourne is lOs. now.

1163. Take Adelaide suppose it would be l 5s. to Adelaide. 1163A. And higher to the north , to Queensland ?-There is a rate to Queensland of 9s. to 1 Os. a ton . ll63n. You a re spea,king of the ordinary steam-sh ip lines ?- Y es. .

11 64. Would there be no cheaper means by which yott co ul d get fatrly heavy cargoes 7-Y es; if you wanted to send a cargo to Sou t h Australia, for I suppose you co uld get f re1ght at

5s. or 6s. per ton. .

' 1165: Assuming t hat your works were in operation a1:d _ t he duty of . I 0 per cent. under

Division VIA. of the Ta riff was in force, and t he Tariff other wu;e as Jt 1s, do you t hlll k you co uld compete with iron from America or England in Sydney?-Wit h 10 per cen t. we could compete with England, but the duty should be 20 per cent. on outsidet·s. . .

1166. Do you reckon t hat you could compete m the rno_re dtshmt ports of !.h e Commonwealth with outside nations at the rate of duty you have quotecl7- I bel1eve we cou ld. 1167. Notwithstanding the difference in the cost of getting the iron to those ports?-Yes. I believe that after t he expiration of the bonus with a duty of 20 per cent. against all outside t he home

count ry, and 10 per cent. against the home country, cou ld retain t.he trade of Au stmlia . 1168. Takino· it all round ?- Y es ; I fir mly beh eve that. llG9. I to ask you whether you think the bonus is esst>ntial to the establishment of

the industry, or whether, und t> r t he duty provided for in DiYision VIA . of t he Tariff, worh would be established wit h out a bonus 7-I should like to clearly understand you: that to say, if, putting the

lV. Sandford, lOth F eiJt'uary, 1903. 58

bonus on one side a.ltogether, the Governmen t we1·o to say that after a certain date they wou ld be pre­ parcel to impose tt d uty of 20 per cent. upon iro11 coming from outside tho mother co untry and 10 per cent. on that from the mother co untry, a.n cl guamntee for so ma,ny years. 11.70. W'hat should be the min imum period of the guarantee ?-Five yea,rs a.fter the star ting

of the works. If that were clon e, I should immediately cable to my to forward the machinery,

1172. You ::tre afraid t hat whil e the refu nd continues, as i t must under the Constitution, you would not have much ch a nce of getting Go,·emment co 11tmcts, as only one-fou rth of the duty would be operative, so far as their co ntracts were concerned 7--Yes j that is how it works out, and und er those conditions we could not take them.

117 :). You t hink it essential to the success of the proposed industry that you should have the Government contracts ?--Certainly. 117±. Contracts for J:a.ils principally ?- Yes. A ,.,sumiug that P a rliamen t met next week, and said-- " \Ve have rlone with t he bonus clauses, bu t we will agree to a 20 per cent. duty against outsid e countries an cl a 10 per cent. du ty against the mother country, I should immediately go to t he Govern­ ment of New Sout h \V: Lles and say- " At w·hat price can you give us your contra<.:ts 1"

117 :J . Tlmt mea ns that, so far as the Government ::tre concerned, the price to them would be iucroased by th e a mount of t he duty ?- Just so, without the bonus. BLlt if you g ive us t he bonus, I for one will not tt-ouble the Government in the ma tter, but we will be prepared to go into open competition, and I say tktt the price will be reduced.

1176. If \ie t ake the other ::tBpect of the question, and say th::tt the duty you suggest should remain in operation then you would expect the Governments to pay you more than they are at present paying ?-No; I would not say that. If the bonus be p::tssed we should be prepared to execute

Goverument contract;; ::tt much less than the price which it acknowledged they had paid within the past fi ve year.,;. 1177. I am spea,king now with reference to the duty only. If the three-fourths refund is going to enter into the matter the presumption is that you must be going to ask t hem to pay a higher price than

that for which they can get the m::tterial from outside. You say that if the State Governments are allowed to have three-fourths of the duty refunded to them you ::tre afraid you could not compete under the duties of 20 and 10 per cent. which you have suggested ?- No; we could not compete in this way. People who have a s urplus, in Ol'cler t o get certain contmcts from the Government may, like shopkeepers, sell things under cost price. Under such cir;)umstances mils might be considered something like a wa,s te product, ::tnd in order to get other Government contracts they might be prepared to supply rails delivered here under· cost price.

1178. I wiilh to ascertain whether you would be in a po&ition to offer to supply the v::trious State Go vemments with rails and similar requirements at an equivalent to the price of the imported article or at an equivalent to the duty ?-Plus the duty of 20 per cent. against outsiders and 10 per cent. again;;t t he mother country for a certain time.- Yes j I should do so.

11 79. You do not consider that you would be in a position to tender at the price of the outside article without the duty ?-No. ll80. A ssuming that the works were going in full order and t here was no bonus j do you think you could continue without the duty ?-Spe>tking for others as well as myself I do not think we co uld compete without the duty being added.

11 8 1. That me::tns that the price will be increased to the State Gov ernment to the extent of the duty ?--It might be so, but it would, I think, be less taken over a number of years. It must not be forgo tten that if American manufacturers knew that they were competing against works here they would quote a very low price; whilst, if they knew we had no works here, t hey would quote a much hig her price ; I therefore say th::tt wi thout the 20 pe 1· cent. duty we might not be able to compete. I may mention t hat the Carnegie people are building their own ships now, and are prepared to deliver their productions wherever they may be required at an all round price.

1182. On the figures you h

Pittsburg iron delivered ?-Very much low er. You will find at page 290 of Uassiers Magazine for this year, in an article entitled "Canadtt as a Steel Producer," nnd describing the operations of the Dominion Iron and Steel Company, the following statement is made :-Such is a brief description of Cnnada's latest contribution to the steel busin ess. I t is, in proportion to her population, a noteworthy and bolll eJfo rt, and the subscribers to the enterprise have evidenced in their li berality and p at ience a d eterminatio" to s ucceed that is son; ething which is to be reckoned with. \Vhile t he enterprise does not possess thc1 artilicially high market of t he United States, resul ting from a hi gh protective Tariff, it does not need 1t. \ Vhile it has to pay fr eight to r each tho European mnrkets it can, and does, assemble, at tide-water , matermls fol' maki ng steel cheaper than t hey can be assembled a nywhere in t he world, and so can alford to pay it. It is located n earer to fo reig n mal'kets tha n a ny co mpetin g points . The wor·k s can deliver to a ny poin t in the British colonies,

South America, or Asin, ns ch eaply as any of tho present exporting countries, nnd a s it can deli ver to them at a lower price than they can m:tnnfacture, its rightful herit,go is to feed their foreign markets. "With respect to the cost of production in Canada, you will find at page 331 of the reports of the B ritisb · Iron Trade Commission-

M e. Mox a m, the joi nt promoter w it h Mr. H . J\I. \Vbitney of t hi s great e nterprise (the Oominio n Iron and Steel Co mpany), has cstim:ttcd the cost of produci ng l> ig iron at the company's works at Sydney, C.B., at 5 dollars iiO cents, 1 2:Zs. lid. per ton, of \l'hi eh he n., sig ns I

:dJOIII', 1·r·pai rs, anrl in ci rlontnls. The cost of sLoe! hlooms is csti.nuttcrl 011 t he ·"nme :tuthority at II rloll :trs 2!i cents per Lo n, or 41,., wii icu is m:tto ri ;11iy und ur rw y c.-< tinmte T met wi t!1 in the United States, and w!.iciJ I shou ld ,·enturo to regard :l .s below t he figures likuly to·Lo averaged 01·er a term of

59 W , Sandford, 19th l•'ebr m,ry, 1003.

1485

11 tl ±. "'\Vhat I want to get at is, taking presen t ra.teH, t he difference between you1· landed cost at Iew South \Vales, and t hat of yom ?- The cost fl.uctmttes; we have had four

yean; gotn? up and five or yea r;; going clown, and it is to S

J t wtll be m th1:ee od our years time. Judging from all I can learn as to what is being clone to-clay with

t he machmcry , I thlllk that iron is likely be Yc ry low in price for the uext two or three years.

l 11:\5 . IV c that the cos t of iron delivered iu Engbnd iH 59s. 7 d., according

to t he rcpm-t of the Bnttsl, Iron T rack Commission . 1 'o you think it wou ld be lo1Yer than that landed iu Sydney?-Y es ; under 60s. 11 8 6. How much lower, 50s. ?- Ye:;, it migh t come down to 50ti., or C\'Cil lo\\·cr than that. It is a n unknown qu antity, a nd yo u can scarcely determine it.

11 8 7. You have given us your estimate of the lccal d prcduction, and \le lHtYC it ftated in t he report of the British Iron Trade t hat the cost of produdion at P ittsburg 3\h 1d.

\ Ve have t o add to t hat a reasonabl e amount for freigl-.t , and is it a fair t hing to ::;u.y that the freigh t a! together to seaboard and from seaboard is n<•t li kely to exceed 1 Os. l1d. per ton ?-It migh t in certain cu·c u m s tan ces. 11 88. 'l'hosc woul d probalily be extraorJi11 a ry circumstance;;; but take1wnual ? ___ I

have paid £5 £ -J, a nd 75s. per ton fo r different of pig iron.

11 89. A n estimate of .'iu;;. as a. landed cost would allow 15::;. llcl. fu r freight., and it wo uld appear t hat you would have an advantage, without t he ctuty at all, so far as the Sydney market concerned, in t he of iron if your estimates are COITect ?_ \,-e do not wan t m uch duty on pig in)n. I nCI'Cr

t hat.

11 90. You would have an of 12;;. per ton in t he Sydney market if these c;;timates are

correct?--You must take into co nsideration iuterest and capib l redemption accoun t. Appliances suitaulc for to-day ma y later on have to he taken down. 1191. B ut both parties have to take t hose matters into aoco unt?-Ye::;. But we ;;hould l1 ave to start with only a small quantity, and you m ust allow t hat, with one furnace n.nd a ;;ma.ll output the

expenses wo llld be proportionately grcateL 1192. By .Ah. Jlf cGcty. - Supposing that fo r fiv e years after yout: works were star ted you betel a g uarantee, either in the form of a duty Ol' a satisfactory bonus, co uld you s tand without the d uty or the bonus when yo u had been five years working up t he market ?- I may just explain that so long as our

minimum wage is kept up-at its present standard you make t he conditions h ere difficult for people going into t he enterprise. 1193. That raises another very big qu estion ?-It is the very of it. It all clepcmls upon

the cos t of production, and when I take Government contracts I have to an agreement to pay a

certain mte of wages. 1194. Are t he wages per man higher at E skhauk than t hey nrc at Pittsb urg, or as high ?-They may be aR high at Pittsburg, but the wages here are higher t han in Enghmd OJ' oa the Continent. 11 95. You are allowing for all this in yom estimate of 35s. p er ton, and I ask you wheth er, if

your markets were guaranteed for fiv e years, eit her by a or a duty, you could at the end of the fiv e years stand the abolition of the g uarantee, and fight on open terms with t he rest of the wo rld fo r Australian contracts ?- I shall answer that iu this way: \Ve are willing to take t he risk of what may he clone at th_e end of the five years. Give us t he bonus for the flve years, and we will put down the

plant. You need not think that we are likely to keep that plant irllc at the end of the fi ve years. I think yo u will find that Mr. Jamieson and some other people as well as myself are willing to take the ritik. 1196. Y ou want a chance to establish yourself, and having been given t hat oppor tunity you arc prepared to take a fair businesti risk ?-You have already passed Div. VIA. of t he 'l'Miff under which certain dut ies arc to come into operation as soon as the Minister i::; satisfi ed.

1197. That is not an answer t o my question. You do not think the duties will be abolished. vVlmt I want to know is whethe r, if the duty Oi' bounty, 'in whichever form the g uarantee iii gi vcn , does disa.ppear, you think you would then Le able to continue opemtions ?-I do not think "e shoukl co n­ t inue ope1·ations.

11 98. B y J1f r. L. E. Gr·oom. - You look to the Government as your chief co nsume1 · ?- Certainly. 11 99. Apart from Government contracts, do yo u think t horo woulcl be a suffici ent prospect of business to encourage you to start the industry 7-N ot to start blast furnaces. There would not be sutii cient with sheets and plates to keep blast fumaces going.

1200. In the event of the industry being es tablished here, lw.ve you considered t he po s1;ibili t,v of exporting to places outside A ustrali11. ?-Certainly . 1201. Do yo u t hink you would have a fair chance of success ?-I consid er there is a fair chance, and a very good cha nce. As I have said, I consider t hat Australia should be the iron rn anuhcturing centre for 11.ll the islands around it.

1202. For the Pacific 1-Yes, t here should be a very good chance of t hat, but, of comse, it would take a fe w years to develop. 1203. Have you ever made a ny special inquiries as to the extent of tlw iron of

Queensland ?-No; T have only read reports as to thei1· coal 11.nd t he iron ore they haYe there. 1201. You arc satisfied that there a re la rge deposit;; of iron there ?-Yes. T think t hat when we show what can be done, it will only be a qu estion of time '"hen Lhere will be wo t·ks starte

But I say that in no other place a rc the1·e t h e ad vantages whiG h \I'C haYe in the \I· est of N cw South \\Tales in the shape not only of coal on the ground to he had at t he low priee of from 3s. io. -1s. per ton, with iron ore to be bought ttt a n average of 5s. 6cl. per ton, a.nd limestone at about -J s. p<'r ton, good sand, an d a n of wat.er. Connected as we a re by rail with South and as 11·e shall be very soon

with Queem;land with out aoin o- OYe r the li! OU ntains to Sydney, J think we can cla im to ba,·c all the natural advantages required to a big success of the cntc· rpri se. ·1 do not tl1in k t.hrre is otl ter

pbce t hat has equ:tlnatural advantages. Tn other places iL is necessary to bring tlte or(' long di stances to t he coal, while we have it at hands, and hr 11 Ce 11·e ('a n mal :l' ]' ig ii'On at ot· \lnr :35 s. per trm.

60

H yman H erman, A ssistant Director of Geological Survey, Victoria., sworn and examined. 1205 . lJy th e Chcti1·man. - T thin k Professor Gregory is the officer in chartre of vour Depa rtment - That is so; but at present h e is ;; uffcri ng from serious illness . "' •

1206. \ Vhat experience haYe you had in Victoria 7- .Eight years. ·

1207. Cnn you, speal; in g generally, give us an idea as to tl1e nature an d extent of the r esources of V ictoria in relation to iron prod uction. The resources do not, I t hink, eq ual those in other States?-- -Apparently not, from t ho evid enec I have re:Hl. 1208. I suppose Victoria has considcraLle iron deposits in places ?-I can hardly say there are ·" consider:.ble " ci eposits; the deposit s hanJ not been proved of any con siderable valu e.

l :.?09. ·w hich is t h e most ex tensive deposit that you kuow in Victoria ?- Probably the most extensive depoc;its are at Nowa Nown, near tLc Snowy River, and nOt th -cast of Bairnsdale. ] 210. H ow far is that from the nearest railway sta tion ?-Atout 30 miles, I think. Tl1e nearest station is Bairnsdal e.

1211. The IJ ual ity of t hose cl cpusib is 1:ot Yery high, I tbir: k '-No, it is not very high at the big deposit a t Nowa 1-lowa. 121 2. \Vhat is the esti mated quantity Lherc? -- - Thc es timate simply says that it may be" several million tons," anrl there has not been sufficient done to enable a reliable es tim ate to be formed . I might add that t hat estimate can only be con sid ered a J> a rough guess.

121 3. H as any estimate been funned of the percentage of iron in the ore 7---I have here an analysis, which gives the average of seven samples. The analysis shows about 7·5 per cent. of silica, 27 ·5 per cent. of metal! ic iron, and 27 ·.5 per cent. of metallic manganese. 121 4. Y ou wo uld not call t hat a ntluable ore for iron ?--No; I would not. In fact, it will not be out of the way to mention t hat this has been regarded as possibly a lode containing, at a lower depth, more valuable metals than iron. It may be, perhaps, the cap of a metttlliferous lode containing copper and other metals.

1215. You do not attach much imporhmce .to this as au iron 1ode?- Not as an ordinary iron lode. 121G. Can you tell us whether, in point of quantity, there are any richer deposits in Victoria 7-The next deposit in point of quantity, :.nd which is of good quality ore, is at Lal Lal, near Ballarat. The est im ated quantity- this is an old es t imate, but it is the only one I know of- is 7 42,300 tons of ore, reckoned , roughly, to contain 357,000 ton s of iron. It is about a 50 per cent. ore.

] 217. You wou ld call that medium to fair ? - I should call it medium ore. 121 8. What ore is it?-It is limonite. 1219. Do you know of any large deposits in Victoria other t han t hose you have mentioned 7-N o ; that is tile lnrgest deposit I am awnre of which presents a prospect of producing pig iron.

1220. Do you know of any deposits r icher in quality 7- No. There are other deposits at Nowa N owa of a bout the same quality, but the mos t that has been said so far of the best of t hose deposits is that, according to the report, it is likely to exceed 60,000 tons of first-class ore. It is a higher quality of ore than that at La! La! ; the report says t hat it is a very pure hematite, giving up to 69 per cent. of

metallic iron. 1221. Then so far as at present ascertained, the iron resources of V ictoria appear to be exceeded by those in other parts of U ndoubtedly.

1222. Has t here been any systematic search for larger deposits 7-At both La.! Lal and Nowa N owa there has been a search, but I should no t call it systematic. 1223. But some attempt has been made; was that Ly private individuals or by the Govern­ ment ?-By private individuals. In fact, at Lal Lal there wa.s a blast furnace, which produced a certain amotint of pig iron.

1224. H ow long ago ?-About 2G or 27 years :.go. 1225. vVas that private enterprise ?-It was the result of private enterprise. On e hundred and twenty-fi ve tons of pig iron were prod uced from 260 tons of ore, equivalent to 40 per cent., and the cost of production was about £ 4 per ton.

1226. Do you know of any ot her attempts at iron manufacture in Victoria ?-No. I might mention t hat the official returns of iron ore produced in Victoria show 5, 434 tons, valued at £12,540. 1227. vVhnt was done with that ore ?-I do not know; probably i t was exported, though in any case the amount is insignificant. There are recent estimates of the cost of production of Now a Now a iron. The late Government Metallurgist, Mr. Jenkins, estimated the cost of the production of pig iron at £3 per ton, and he reckoned that it could possibly com pete with foreign pig iron in Melbourne at £ 3

lOs. per ton. 1228. How long ago was t hat ?- Last year, when I\lr. J enkins ret ired. l 22!J. I :; there anythiug further you can tell us whi ch wi ll assist us in the possibility

of establishing iron works in Australia . Have you any plan showing the pl aces at which iron deposits occur in Victoria '? - Yes- [plan jJ1'0du ccd]. 1230. But the notable instances are J.al Lal and Now a Now a, ?- Y es. 1231 . Do you wan t to add t o t he list ?- - At Dookie there are iron deposits which have received attention for some years past; but, so far as I am aware, nothiJJ g has been done to show reli ably what extent t he deposits have. The quality, so far as analyses go, is pretty good.

1232. vVhat is the percentage ?-Medium; 4- 9 ·45 of meta)lic iron. There are at preeeu t elevm min-eral leases taken up, and these are really fo r prospe cting for iron ore. aggregate I ,54 3

acres, and eight of the leases are at N owa N owa, two at LalLa!, a1:d one at Coimadai, which is in the Lal Lnl distrd. 1233. JJy Jlh. J oseph Cook. - Ancl these leases refer to the deposits you have described ?- Y es ; t here are no leases at Dookie at p resent.

123±. By the Chairman.- Is work being don e on the leases ?- So far as I am awa re no wor·k is being done, but I could not Hay for cert:.in. I may that early in 1901 a proposition was made to the Department by a compan,Y to undertnke the productio:n of iron on receiving certain concessions from

61 IJ )·mn.n Herman , 19th February, 1903.

the Government. 011e concession tlmt t he GO\ ernment should undertake to take a ll its supplies from the local work;;. to be csta_b bshed, and thcte II()! C other tontcssiom; as to raih1 ay;;, aud the taking­ of land ; came of the 'lhe summury of for 1\'[in es on the pro­

Jected transactiOn m lm; Annual R eport fo r 190l \l ;t,; that., wh1l st suftitien t informntion had been obtained to encourage in t hi s dirEction, mu l: h rem ained t o be considered before a definite

opinion be expressed itS to t l1 c f uture of t he i11 rl u,:t ry. I might add t hat in addition t o the deposiLs I have mentwned a rc a num be r of oth?i's, u ( gcod qual ity, but tl1c f]Uan tit.y ;1\'a il able has, so

far, been ascertaw ed su.ili Ciently well to JU Stify any one dubbing them as of im portance. There iR 3, of smaller deposits of importance .at Nowa Nowa. In a rapid up the Snowy

R1ver Valley so me few years ago, one of tile officers mformed m·e that he noticed a, number of iron lodes . These were not ve ry big, certainly, but etill were sulfcicnt to show that deposits may be looked for so me, it may be, of importance. '

1235. But you have given us the most im1 :ortan t which can te spoken about ?·-

I think so. •

12 36 . By .lb-. J oseph Cook.- I understand that yo ur staff h ave not made a systemat.ic rreolorrical survey of t he iron deposits of Victoria ?-No. I may say that that work been on list" for

some years past, but so far no member of the staff has lctn able to go on wi th i t . 1237. Y ou have done nothing, for instance, in Victoria, corresponding to the work done in N cw South Wales 7- No. R erort ·on iron and some other deposits h:i.vc bee n on the list fo e so me vears, but n othing has been done. "

1238. By Jl/1·. JlfcCay.-'Ihe Snowy Hiver basin is amongst the least ex pl ored po r tions of the 'tate 1-'l'hat is so . 1239. By Jlf1· . .Joseph Co ok.-H ow far from the coast a re those areas where you there ar·e or may be discovered deposits of iron 7- 'J he dista nce vari es from 12 miles to GO or GO mil es to t he Lakes'

Entntnce, which would be the natural port, though Orbost mi ght possibly be used. Hut as one gets north t.be co untt·y becomes very roGgh, and the means of transit a re more difficult. Ncar t he coast the country would be easy for rail way com munication if ever that should be req uired. 1240. By ]I h. J!cCay.- 'l'h ere is no rail way up there 7-- N ot beyond BaimsJalr .

(Taken at Lit!tgow.)

MONDAY, 6m APRIL, 1903.

Mr. J oseph Cook, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Mauger,

Commissioners p1 ·esent :

Mr. \Vatkin s, 1\ir. \Vat son.

Mr. was called to the Chair, pro tem.

\Villiam Thomley, sworn and examined.

12-tl. By JJh. Watson. ·- You u.re the m:tnn.ger of t he Eskbank Jron \Yorks, Lithgo w, owned by 'William Sandford, Limited 124-2. I understand that you have some infoema.tion whi ch you desire to lay before the Co mmission as to the experience of your fi.rm in endenvouring to find un outlet for your produ cts under present -conditions 7-Y es . vVe decided to ente 1· into t he manufacture of railway points and cross in gs, and we

put down a plant in a portion of oue works wh ich was speciall y des igned fo r cnrrying on particular branch of industry. W e thought that by bying out ou t· works in a n up-to-date style we shou ld be a bl e to successfully compete with colonial of t !J cse goods. This cxpcctntion " ·n.s ;o far reali zed

that when we tendered for 200 sets of points nnd cro;:;::;ings reiJUirr d by the Uove rnmrnt, ou r tender wits co nsiderably the lowest of those sent in by colonial although we " ·ere hadly lJcatrn by the

English tenderers. 1'hc consequence was t hat t he 200 sets were ordered from Engbnd. \Ve then represented to the Government that this was the first occasion for many years on wli!ch they had call ed for tendet·s from abroad for points and crossings, and that whe!1 our plant was purchased we had no idea that. \\"C should have to enter into competition "·ith English ma nufactm ers. \ 'Ve put cl own plant :tt a cost of something like £6,000, and we consid ered i t I"Cl'Y hard that 11·e should be sudd nl y brought into

competition with the English mitnufact urer, ll'hO was not subject to the · condit ions of contract unde1· which we were bound to pay the minimum wage. 1243. You mean that there was a minimum wage provision in the con tract 1--Ycs, so fa t' as local tenderers were concerned. There was al so a provision that the work shou ld be carri ed out under the eiaht-hour system. The English manufacturer.;; were wo rking under the ni ne-hour ::.nd there was

no provision for the payment of any minimum wage in t heir case, and t hey 11·e re t herefore ahle to tender fot• about half the amount named in our offer. I have not fi gures aYa il ablc arranged in s uc h manner that yo u will be abl3 to readily grasp the situation, but our cttsc is set forth in t he fo ll o\\' in g ktter :-Equi table Bu il ding, George·street, Sydney, l H h August, 1902.

Sm,-\Ve have the honour to call your attention to t he f.en llers for 200 sets of poinLs a! 'd crossings that closell on Thursday lu.st. T end ers were received from Enghwd, A menca, a nd t h1 s Srate. An EngiJS II tender. lowest, the price being g iven as £2,470 f.o.b., Engl:wd. " 'e were the ]0 11·est co loma! t enderer, our pr1ce bemg £5,773 15s. d eli vered at Clyde, with the pr01·i so that if the Department wi shcu Lo take at E:kbunk we would deduct the freicrht·from E s kbank to Clyuc, amount iucr to £210 , and a lso g il'ing the DJ partmc:!lt tre-:! at E skbank

of finished and switches, t hus a1·oiding o f fonmrlling to Clyde a nt! un loading and relvading.

So as to compare the difference in price between t he Engl•sh tender a nd ours, 1t will be to add the

cost ot transportation from p ort of shi pment to Clyde, a nd also Agcnt·Uencral's charges for mspectwn, &c.

1487

\Villiarn Thol'nl ey, 6th April, 62

\Ve imate t he abOI-e charges approximately as

Freig ht an< l iusuntuco \VI mr-f:Lgo Punting and loading Hail to Clyde

To which to be added inspection mul other charges.

P er ton. £1 J (i

0 2 G

0 2 G

0 l 2

£ 1 11 8

Leaving o ut t he ch arges, t hi s leaves a difference between our tender and tho lowest English tender

of £2,031 JJs. in fa,-our of tho English tender. It would t herefore appeur on the surface t hat we were making a n onmmons profit, or t here is some mistake in the English tender. Before deciding, we \I'O ulcl respectfully in Yite the J\J careful consideration to !,he follow in g facts :-

(!) 011e of the conrlitions of tho contract, which we tal

Engli & h tender £5,350

Om tend er £ 7, 381

(3) The al JOYC \\"ill show both tenders under equal cond itions. Coloniul tenderers arc subjected to t he labour cond it ions obtaining in this State. Tmrlc union mtes for

mcchauics, minimum wage for labour, and eig h t hours per d ay a,ll rouncl. The standurd rate for mecha ni cs in this State is from l Os . tolls. p er day, a m! labourers 7s- per day; the mtes paid in Engla nd are mecha,ni cs :30a. per week, a nd lu!)out·crs J Os. to 20 . .,. por week, workin g n in e l1 oar.s p e r clay . It ll'ill, t herefore, be seen frJm the a,bove t hat ow ing to the rai ls being s uppli ed free labour enters very

la rgely into this contract. Ont of a pproxim ately 400 tons as t he total weig ht of t he contmct only about 120 tons a rc s uppli ed by t he contractor. It w ill ;dso be see:1 that we are paying, ta,king wa,ges and bou t'S worked in to consideration, 125 per cent. more for mechanics, and 164 per cent. more for labourers. If, however, we tak e the total cost of the contract, in cludin g tLe cost of mils, it will be seen that our p t·ic e is only 38 pet· cent. above t h e E ng lish !Jl'ice, and ths itB pection tmcl oth er cha.rge3, together wi th the cos t of

r< li ls from rolling mills to t he works of the CJn tmctor'in England, will still further reduce this p ercenta,ge . If the Go1·e mmcnt C< tl1 see its way cle:w to place this contmct wi t h n · it will enable us to employ an additional 50 men. Anticipating that t he Go,-ernment would be calling tenders for t hi s class of work we have purch,tsecl abou t £0,000 worth of additional machinery, which is now being erecto>d. If, unfortunately, we lose this co ntract we shall he compelled to SLtspcncl operations in this direction , as we cannot honestly fulfil the conditions la id clown and compete with the low-priced labour of other co un tries.

W e have, &c.,

'l'o t he Hon. E . \V. O'Sulli1·an, Minister for \Vorks, Sydney.

'l'he Minister recognised t hat we had Leen put to a lot of expense in laying had no knowledge of the intention of t he Government to call for tenders desirous to ascertnin t he lowest price at which we co uld ctorry out the work. further letter to him as fol lows :-

W:M. SANDFORD, L td.

down a plant, and that we in England, and he was v\Te thereupon addressed a

Equitable Building, George-street, Sydney, 1902.

R e T encle1· jo1· 200 sets S u·itches and Crossings.

Sm,-Refcrring to our conversation of t hi s morning, we ha, ve carefully considered the posit,ion as set forth, and we fully r ecogni se the difficulties in placing this contract with us. \Ve have aga,in gone in to t he cost of t he work, and with a view of d oing all that is possible on our part to have t he work clone in the country, we have d ecided to amend om· tender, and now offer to supply the Departm ent with t his work at estimnted net cost. Our originnl offer was £5, 773 JJs., delivered at Clyde. W e now beg to amend the offer to £5,273, deli ver ed on truck s at Eskbank; and we further underta,ke to provide free stomge for completed ma,terial and will load upon trucks a nd despatch as required by the D epartment.

Although we have reduced our price to absolutely the lowest point for which the wor k ca,n be produced in the colony, i t is still considembly in advance of t he E nglish t ender. On investigating the cause of this difi'e rence it is accounted for by t he difference in the rates of ]Jay a nd working hours in t he two countries, as t he following will show:-

'Ve estimated t hat it will take fifteen mechanics a nd 21 labourers 39 week s to complete the contract. 'l'he amount of wages to be paid, at £3 for m echanics a nd £2 2s. for labourers, amounts to ;103,474. Owing to t he extra number of hours worked in England, the same number of men would complete the work in 31\ weeks, and the ·rates of pay being , mechanics 3'18., a nd labourers ISs., making a total amount of wag-es pa,id, £ 1,554. This alone accounts for £ 1,920, a, nd the difference in rates ' p:tid for genemlbbour and s uper vision is considerably hi gh er here than it is in Engla nd, a ud will more than account for the remaining differences between our tender a nd th e

English tender. \Ve are quite s ure t ha.t this class of work h a,s n eYer been produced in t he colony at the rates " ·e now quote, which can easily be ascertain ed by refening Lo t he cost of points a nd crossin gs made in t he railway workshops at Redfern.

'l'o the Hon. E . vV_ O'Sulli van , Min ister for \Vor·k s, Sydney.

vV c have, &c., WM. SANDFORD, Ltd.

As t he res ult of the representations made to th e Minister, he gave us a t rial order for 50 sets, the under­ standing being t hat we should cut down the prices as much as possible, and let him know how far we could reduce our charges after the 50 sets had been completed. When the order was completed, and the men were about to be put off, we represented the matter to the Ministei· again, and offered to red uce our price by 15 per cent . provid ed he wo uld give us another order. The letter in which this offer was con-