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SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, E and F
Reports to the Senate on Departmental Estimates
1978-79
Brought up and ordered to be printed 7 November 1978
Parliamentary Paper No. 301/1978
Parliamentary Paper No. 301/1978
The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia
SENATE ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A, B, C, D, E and F
Reports to the Senate on Departmental Estimates
1978-79
The Commonwealth Government Printer Canberra 1979
© Commonwealth of Australia 1979
Printed by Authority by the Commonwealth Government Printer, Canberra 1979
CONTENTS
Page
1. Resolutions of the Senate-12 September 1978 ........................................................................... 3
2. Estimates Committee A— Report .............................................................................................. 7
Minutes of Proceedings 1978 — 21 September 1978 13
10 October 1978 14
13 October 1978 16
19 October 1978 18
23 October 1978 20
26 October 1978 23
7 November 1978 26
3. Estimates Committee B— Report ................................................................................................... 29
Minutes of Proceedings 1978— 28 September 1978 35
10 October 1978 36
13 October 1978 38
19 October 1978 40
23 October 1978 42
7 November 1978 45
4. Estimates Committee C— Report ................................................................................................... 49
Minutes of Proceedings 1978— 27 September 1978 55
10 October 1978 56
16 October 1978 57
17 October 1978 59
20 October 1978 60
26 October 1978 63
7 November 1978 65
5. Estimates Committee D— Report ................................................................................................... 69
Appendix ......................................................................................... 71
Attachment ......................................................................................... 73
Minutes of Proceedings 1978— 27 September 1978 77
12 October 1978 78
16 October 1978 80
17 October 1978 83
20 October 1978 85
26 October 1978 89
6. Estimates Committee E— Report ................................................................................................... 93
Minutes of Proceedings 1978— 28 September 1978 97
12 October 1978 98
Page
16 October 1978 101
17 October 1978 105
26 October 1978 106
7. Estimates Committee F — Report ............................................................................................... 109
Minutes of Proceedings 1978— 21 September 1978 ..................................................................... 113
12 October 1978 114
13 October 1978 117
19 October 1978 121
23 October 1978 123
7 November 1978 124
RESOLUTIONS OF THE SENATE
RESOLUTION PASSED ON 12 SEPTEMBER 1978
Appointment of Committee F and reference to Estimates Committees: Senator Garrick, by leave, moved— (1) That the Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure for the Service of the year ending on 30 June 1978 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Ad
ditional Expenditure in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1978 be re ferred herewith to Estimates Committees for examination and report. (2) That the Committees deal with departmental estimates as follows: (3) That the Committees consider the Proposed Expenditure in relation to De
partments, as follows:
Estimates Committee A Department of Education Parliament Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet Department of the Treasury Department of Foreign Affairs Estimates Committee B
Attorney-General’s Department Department of Trade and Resources Department of Employment and Industrial Relations Department of National Development Department of the Special Trade Representative Estimates Committee C
Department of Social Security Department of Aboriginal Affairs Department of Health Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs
Department of Veterans’Affairs Estimates Committee D Department of Science Department of Primary Industry
Department of the Northern Territory Department of Construction Department of Home Affairs Department of the Capital Territory Estimates Commitee E
Department of Administrative Services Department of Industry and Commerce Department of Transport Department of Productivity
Department of Environment, Housing and Community Development Estimates Committee F Department of Defence Department of Business and Consumer Affairs
Department of Finance Postal and Telecommunications Department.
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(4) That the Committees report to the Senate on or before Tuesday, 7 November 1978. Debate ensued. Question—put and passed.
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ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A REPORT TO THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A
REPORT TO THE SENATE
Estimates Committee A has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.
1. On 12 September 1978, the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates for 1978-79 relating to the following Departments:
Parliament Education Prime Minister and Cabinet Treasury
Foreign Affairs 2. The Committee considered the Estimates and received explanations from the President of the Senate (in relation to the Parliamentary Departments), the Minister for Education, the Minister for Administrative Services and officers of the
Departments. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the Senate’s consideration of Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1978-79 and Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1978-79.
3. Additional written replies, received after the Committee hearings, have been distributed to members of the Committee and where appropriate, to other Senators who participated in the Committee’s examination. These replies, and others still awaited, will also be incorporated in the Committee Hansard.
4. The Committee wishes to draw attention to the following matters: (a.) A uditor-General— Efficiency A udit Function The Committee was disturbed to learn that the Auditor-General has anticipated the parliamentary passage of legislation designed to give effect to
the Government’s decision to empower him to undertake efficiency audits of Departments, Statutory Authorities and Government-owned companies. The Committee was informed that O ur Office . . . (Auditor- General’s) . . . is currently pursuing that particular activity in
anticipation of the proclamation of the Bill currently before the House of Representatives . . .’ and that ‘Currently 18 personnel are involved in the efficiency auditing function’ (Estimates Committee Hansard, 23 October 1978, p. 923).
Even more disturbing was the encouragement given to the Auditor-General to take such an action by the Report of Working Party of Officials on Efficiency Audits, April 1977, p. 44. The Report, after suggesting that it be stressed that the approach to efficiency auditing is experimental and that significant and tangible benefits should not be expected in the short term, then goes on to declare the importance of staff recruitment prior to
Parliament’s consideration of the enabling legislation. At best, this attitude shows itself as a misguided sense of urgency towards what was admitted as an experimental approach to a new function. At worst, it shows itself as an
alarming ignorance of, or disregard for, the need for prior Parliamentary approval. The Committee, of course, recognises that Governments and the Public Service should take initiatives in policy and administrative matters, but they would do well to remember that where Parliament’s concurrence is first
required, such concurrence should not be presumed or anticipated.
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(b) Auditor-General— Information sought by the Committee When considering the Auditor-General’s Office, information was sought by the Committee concerning the dates that annual reports (i.e. financial statements) of departments and statutory authorities were received by the Auditor-General for examination.
The Auditor-General’s Office subsequently advised the Committee, by letter, that this information would be included in the Supplementary Report of the Auditor-General for 1977-78 which is in course of preparation. The Committee was further advised that there was ‘. . . a procedural difficulty posed by the request which would have required information to be supplied to a committee of the Parliament in advance of that information being transmitted to the whole Parliament’.
It was pointed out to the Office that the information sought concerned dates of receipt of financial statements, not the content of such statements which, of course, may be the subject of comment in the Auditor-General’s annual report to the Parliament. The Committee was then supplied with the information in relation to a particular Corporation but has not been supplied
with the information concerning the other financial statements.
This matter is brought to the attention of the Senate as the ‘procedural difficulty’ which the Auditor-General claimed restrained him from providing the information is something the Senate should review when considering the Audit Amendment Bill 1978.
(c) Senate Staff Ceiling In its May 1978 Report, the Committee noted that ‘. . . due to pressures on the Senate, the President has found it necessary to ask for an increase in the staff ceiling of the Department of the Senate. Furthermore, we note that
matters currently being considered by Senators in relation to an expansion of Senate Committee activity will, if agreed to, certainly require a further increase ’. Since that Report, the expected expansion of Senate Committee
activity occurred through the decision to formalise research assistance to Estimates Committees.
The Committee is concerned that the staff ceiling of 140 positions, which was operative to 30 June 1978, has, for the year ending 30 June 1979, been reduced to 138 as a result of the Government’s notification to the President of the Senate on 2 June 1978.
The situation now facing the President is that the Public Service Board has concurred in his view that ten new positions (now eleven because of the creation of an additional Estimates Committee) should be created to cope with the new functions and extra workload of the Senate, but that these positions must be staffed from within the staff ceiling imposed by the Government in June,
Clearly, the Senate must assist its President in his efforts to overcome this most disturbing form of Executive domination of the Parliament.
In its May Report, the Committee commented that the Parliament might do well to consider looking at ways to be responsible for its own staffing ar rangements, and the situation cited above underlines the need for the Senate to examine the matter, perhaps by reference to the Senate House Committee. The extent of other Parliaments ’ control over their own staff could perhaps be
taken as a starting point.
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(d ) Parliament’s Appropriations The Committee was pleased to note that the Presiding Officers are currently making strenuous efforts to give the legislature, particularly the Presiding Officers and private members, greater control over the expenditure of the
Parliament (Estimates Committee Hansard, 19 October 1978, p. 708). The Committee regards this matter as being at least of equal importance to the Government-imposed staff ceilings and we therefore look forward to when the President is able to make a further statement on the progress made.
However, it is considered that it would be appropriate for any examination as suggested in section (c) of this Report to also include the extent and method of Parliament’s control of its own appropriations. (e) Estimates Committees—Sittings Programme
The Committee wishes to bring to the attention of the Senate the disruption caused to the sittings programme for Estimates Committee A. We are aware, of course, that other Committees had similar difficulties. On this occasion Estimates Committee A was affected by the Govern
ment’s legislative programme which caused a loss of some 43 A hours of sitting time from the planned meetings. On other occasions, departures from planned meetings have been caused by the size and complexity of some of the Departments dealt with by particular Committees.
This Committee holds the view that as it is charged by the Senate with the examination of the proposed expenditure of public moneys, it must not be put in a position of having to make undue haste, or, having to sit to unreasonably late hours, in performing this important function. The Committee accord
ingly suggests that more attention be given to considering these factors when sittings programmes for Estimates Committees are drawn up. (f) Explanatory Notes The Committee appreciated the new standardised form of the departmental
estimates explanatory notes. However, its consideration of the estimates for the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet and the Australian Devel opment Assistance Bureau was hindered due to the supply of their notes orig inally in the old form and then, subsequently, in the new form.
The Committee realises that these bodies may have had their explanations prepared before they received the Department of Finance advice concerning the new format, but we point out that the other Departments dealt with by the Committee were able to meet the requirement and submit the notes to the
Committee during the first sitting week in August. (g) Senate Staff—Overtime Allowance The Committee was pleased to note the undertaking given by the President to review the question as to whether there should be a choice for Senate
Officers between the extra leave now granted as compensation for the long hours required of them by the Senate, or an allowance based on those hours as is the case with certain officers of the Government. 5. The Committee records its appreciation for the explanations provided by the President of the Senate, the Minister for Education, the Minister for Administrative Services and the officers of the various Departments who assisted during the
examination.
7 November 1978
K. J. MARTIN Chairman
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Estimates Committee A Minutes of Proceedings
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 6
THURSDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 1978
1. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee met at 2.10 p.m.
2. APPOINTMENT AND MEMBERSHIP OF ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Resolutions of the Senate of 12 September 1978 and 20 September 1978 relating to the appointment of Estimates Committee A and the membership of the Committee were reported.
3. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: On the motion of Senator Colston, Senator Martin was elected Chairman of the Committee.
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 2.15 p.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Martin, Colston, Knight, McLaren, and Wriedt (5).
K. J. MARTIN Chairman
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THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 7
TUESDAY, 10 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.14 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.
2. REFERENCE OF ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Resolution of the Senate of 12 September 1978 relating to the reference to the Committee of the Par ticulars of Proposed Expenditure 1978-79 was reported.
3. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman stated that, pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate on 12 September 1978, the Committee would consider the following departmental estimates:
Division
Document* * Page No. Department Amount
$
A 48-54 270-282 Education ............................................ 492 632 000
B 10-11 835-837 Education ........................................... 13 807 000
A 6-9 101-109 P arliam en t........................................... 15 549000
A 103-107 500-516 Prime Minister and Cabinet .................. 48 666 000
B 22 915 Prime Minister and Cabinet ................. 865 000
A 128-131 670-678 T reasury................................................ 253 067 000
B 26 963-970 T reasury................................................ 2 706 000
A 68-74 315-319 Foreign Affairs ................................... 525 985 000
B 14-15 851-853 Foreign Affairs ................................... 12 337 000
* Document A—‘ Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979’. * Document B—‘Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979’.
4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF EDUCATION:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac companied by the following officers: Department of Education: Mr D. M. Morrison, Deputy Secretary
Mr Î. E. Hughes, First Assistant Secretary, Special Programs Division Dr J. H. Eedle, Director, Northern Territory Division Mr Î. T. Higgins, Administrative Officer, Northern Territory Division Mr R. N. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Departmental Services Branch Mr D. W. Hood, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch Mr E. M. McConchie, Assistant Secretary, Australian Capital Territory Further
Education Branch Mr P. Kearns, Acting Assistant Secretary, Education Planning Group
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Mr P. Bowler, Assistant Secretary, School and Aboriginal Student Assistance Branch Mr W. Bowron, Acting Assistant Secretary, Tertiary Students Branch Tertiary Education Commission:
Mr L. Hennessy, First Assistant Commissioner Australian Capital Territory Schools Authority: Dr H. Beare, Chief Education Officer Mr B. J. Hutchinson, Director, Facilities Branch
Commonwealth Teaching Service: Mr K. Glover, Executive Officer Schools Commission: Mr R. P. McNamara, Assistant Secretary, Programs No. 2
Mr D. Marsh, Director, Administrative Services Curriculum Development Centre: Dr M. Skilbeck, Director Mr D. Francis, Assistant Director Department o f Finance:
Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Division 270 — Department of Education (Document A) Division 272 — Department of Education (Document A)
Division 835 — Department of Education (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of Division 272.
5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10 p.m.
6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Colston, Davidson, Knight, Martin, McLaren and Wriedt (6). Senators Button, Teague and Townley also took part in the Committee’s proceedings.
K. J. MARTIN Chairman
24621/ 79-2 15
THE SENATE
FRIDAY, 13 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF EDUCATION:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac companied by the following officers: Department o f Education: Mr D. M. Morrison, Deputy Secretary
Mr Î. E. Hughes, First Assistant Secretary, Special Programs Division Dr J. H. Eedle, Director, Northern Territory Division Mr Î. T. Higgins, Administrative Officer, Northern Territory Division Mr R. N. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Departmental Services Branch Mr D. W. Hood, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch Mr E. M. McConchie, Assistant Secretary, Australian Capital Territory Further
Education Branch Mr A. J. Woods, Finance Officer, Australian Capital Territory Further Edu cation Branch Mr P. Kearns, Acting Assistant Secretary, Education Planning Group Mr P. Bowler, Assistant Secretary, School and Aboriginal Student Assistance
Branch Mr W. Bowron, Acting Assistant Secretary, Tertiary Students Branch Tertiary Education Commission:
Mr R. H. Arthur, Assistant Commissioner Australian Capital Territory Schools Authority: Dr H. Beare, Chief Education Officer Mr B. J. Hutchison, Director, Facilities Branch Commonwealth Teaching Service:
Mr K. Glover, Executive Officer Schools Commission: Mr R. P. McNamara, Assistant Secretary, Programs No. 2 Mr D. Marsh, Director, Administrative Services Curriculum Development Centre:
Mr D. Francis, Assistant Director Department of Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
Divisions 270-271 — Department of Education (Document A) Divisions 273-275 — Department of Education (Document A) The Committee concluded its consideration of Divisions 270-271 and 273-275.
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 8
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3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 5 p.m.
4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Colston, Davidson, Knight, Martin, McLaren and Wriedt (6). Senator Teague also took part in the Committee’s proceedings.
K. J. MARTIN Chairman
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THE SENATE
THURSDAY, 19 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 8.03 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF EDUCATION:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac companied by the following officers:
Department of Education: Mr J. J. Wilson, Acting Deputy Secretary Mr M. J. Doburn, Adviser, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch Mr Î. E. Hughes, First Assistant Secretary, Special Programs Division Dr J. H. Eedle, Director, Northern Territory Division
Mr Î. T. Higgins, Administrative Officer, Northern Territory Division Mr R. N. Allen, Assistant Secretary, Departmental Services Branch Mr D. W. Hood, Territorial Policy and Co-ordination Branch
Mr E. M. McConchie, Assistant Secretary, Australian Capital Territory Further Education Branch Mr A. J. Woods, Finance Officer, Australian Capital Territory Further Edu cation Branch Mr P. Kearns, Acting Assistant Secretary, Education Planning Group Mr P. Bowler, Assistant Secretary, School and Aboriginal Student Assistance
Branch Mr W. Bowron, Acting Assistant Secretary, Tertiary Students Branch Tertiary Education Commission: Mr R. H. Arthur, Assistant Commissioner Australian Capital Territory Schools Authority:
Dr H. Beare, Chief Education Officer Mr B. J. Hutchison, Director, Facilities Branch Commonwealth Teaching Service: Mr K. Glover, Executive Officer Schools Commission:
Mr R. P. McNamara, Assistant Secretary, Programs No. 2 Mr D. Marsh, Director, Administrative Services Curriculum Development Centre: Mr D. Francis, Deputy Director
Mr P. Maher, Assistant Director, Administrative Services and Publications Department of Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 9
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The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 278-282 — Department of Education (Document A) Divisions 835-837 — Department of Education (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De
partment of Education.
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-PARLIA MENT:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable Condor L. Laucke, President of the Senate, ac companied by the following officers: Department o f the Senate: Mr R. E. Bullock, Acting Clerk of the Senate
Mr A. R. Gumming Thom, Acting First Clerk Assistant Mr H. G. Smith, Acting Principal Parliamentary Officer Mr T. H. G. Wharton, Acting Usher of the Black Rod Mr G. M. Nankervis, Acting Senior Parliamentary Officer (Administration)
Mr M. Rosser, Senior Parliamentary Officer (Interparliamentary Union) Department o f Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Division for consideration:
Division 101 — Department of the Senate (Document A) The Committee commenced its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De partment of the Senate.
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.16 p.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Colston, Davidson, Knight, Martin, McLaren and Wriedt (6). Senators Jessop and Teague also took part in the Committee’s proceedings.
K. J. MARTIN Chairman
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THE SENATE
MONDAY, 23 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.03 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-PARLIA MENT:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable Condor L. Laucke, President of the Senate, accompanied by the following officers: Department o f the Senate: Mr R. E. Bullock, Deputy Clerk
Mr A. R. Gumming Thom, Clerk Assistant Mr H. G. Smith, Usher of the Black Rod Mr T. H. G. Wharton, Deputy Usher of the Black Rod Mr G. M. Nankervis, Acting Senior Parliamentary Officer (Administration) Mr M. Rosser, Senior Parliamentary Officer (Interparliamentary Union) Parliamentary Reporting Staff:
Mr K. R. Ingram, Principal Parliamentary Reporter Mr F. W. Temperly, Administrative Officer Parliamentary Library: Mr H. G. Weir, Parliamentary Librarian
Mr M. J. Bray, Administrative Officer Mr H. Knight, Finance Officer Mr G. Cooper, Technical Developments Officer Joint House Department:
Mr R. W. Hillyer, Secretary Mr R. L. Burrell, Chief Executive Officer Mr M. Niven, Senior Administrative Officer Department o f Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr R. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
Divisions 101-109 — Parliament (Document A) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Parliament.
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac companied by the following officers: Department o f the Prime Minister and Cabinet: Mr A. J. Ayers, Deputy Secretary
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 10
20
Mr J. T. 0 ’Connor, First Assistant Secretary, Priorities and Operations Division Mr J. G. Hinton, Assistant Secretary, Services Branch Office of National Assessments: Mr D. M. Sadleir, Deputy Director-General
Mr B. Cowman, Administrative Officer Commonwealth Ombudsman: Mr K. M. Crotty, Deputy Ombudsman Mr P. Gamp, Administrative Officer Australian Science and Technology Council:
Dr B. S. Middleton, Assistant Secretary Auditor-General’s Office: Mr J. E. McMahon, Assistant Auditor-General, Policy Planning and Manage ment Branch, Division C
Mr B. H. Farrow, Comptroller Public Service Board: Mr R. M. McLeod, Secretary Mr B. V. Jabs, Senior Inspector, MANDATA Project Office
Mr R. G. Harvey, Assistant Commissioner, Management Branch Department o f Finance: Mr R. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
Divisions 500-516 — Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (Document A) Division 915 — Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De partment of the Prime Minister and Cabinet.
4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF THE TREASURY:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac companied by the following officers: Department of the Treasury: Mr D. J. Barry, Director (Finance and General), Management Services Branch
Mr B. Strangio, Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Mr D. W. Holmesby, Estimates Officer, Management Services Branch Ms M. Genat, Inspector (Personnel), Management Services Branch Mr G. Walker, Senior Inspector, Management Projects Sub-section, Manage
ment Services Branch Mr M. Worsley, Computer Systems Officer, ADP Support Team Mr B. A. Seebach, Senior Finance Officer, Revenue, Loans and Investment Division
Mr E. F. Delofski, Senior Finance Officer, Overseas Economic Relations Division Mr C. R. Hodges, Acting Director, Legislation and Appeals Section, Office of the Insurance Commissioner
Mr M. Kooymans, Senior Research Officer, Financial Institutions Divisions
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Australian Bureau of Statistics: Mr A. R. Bagnall, First Assistant Statistician, Co-ordination and Management Division Mr P. G. Howell, Assistant Statistician, Management Services Branch Mr B. H. Crook, Assistant Statistician, Technical Systems and Production
Branch Mr D. J. Trewin, Acting Assistant Statistician, Statistical Services Branch Mr R. Leovic, Acting Chief Statistical Officer Mr J. W. Maurer, Director, Finance and General Services Mr J. E. Mackay, Senior Inspector (Finance and Accounts) Mr R. P. O’Callaghan, Acting Inspector (Finance) Australian Taxation Office:
MrP. McCann, Inspector (Finance), Management Services MrO. Brettell, Inspector (Finance), Management Services Mr K. Allen, Executive Officer, Treaties and Projects Branch Mr J. J. Daly, Assistant Commissioner, Management Services Department of Finance:
Mr R. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Division for consideration: Division 670 — Department of the Treasury (Document A) The Committee commenced its consideration of Division 670.
5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.04 p.m.
6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Colston, Davidson, Knight, Martin, McLaren and Wriedt (6). Senators MacGibbon and Robertson also took part in the Committee’s proceedings.
K. J. MARTIN Chairman
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THE SENATE
THURSDAY, 26 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 5 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF THE TREASURY:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac companied by the following officers: Department of the Treasury: Mr D. J.Barry, Director (Finance and General), Management Services Branch
Mr B. Strangio, Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Mr D. W. Holmesby, Estimates Officer, Management Services Branch Mr B. A. Seebach, Senior Finance Officer, Revenue, Loans and Investment Division
Mr E. F. Deiofski, Senior Finance Officer, Overseas Economic Relations Division Mr J. Hartwell, Senior Finance Officer, Financial Institutions Divisions Australian Bureau of Statistics:
Mr A. R. Bagnall, First Assistant Statistician, Co-ordination and Management Division Mr P. G. Howell, Assistant Statistician, Management Services Branch Mr B. H. Crook, Assistant Statistician, Technical Systems and Production
Branch Mr D. J. Trewin, Acting Assistant Statistician, Statistical Services Branch Mr J. Sattler, Director, Information Services Mr M. J. Griffiths, Director, Labour Force Section Mr J. W. Maurer, Director, Finance and General Services Mr J. E. Mackay, Senior Inspector (Finance and Accounts) Mr R. P. O ’Callaghan, Acting Inspector (Finance) Australian Taxation Office:
MrP. McCann, Inspector (Finance) Management Services MrO. Brettell, Inspector (Finance), Management Services Mr K. Allen, Executive Officer, Treaties and Projects Branch Mr J. J. Daly, Assistant Commissioner, Management Services Department of Finance:
Mr R. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 670-678 — Department of the Treasury (Document A)
Divisions 963-970 — Department of the Treasury (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De partment of the Treasury.
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 11
23
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Administrative Ser vices, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Foreign Affairs: Mr A. R. Parsons, Deputy Secretary
Mr K. McDonald, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Foreign Service Division Mr A. D. Campbell, First Assistant Secretary, International Organisations and Consular Division Mr J. R. Kelso, First Assistant Secretary, Nuclear Division Mr I. G. Bowden, First Assistant Secretary, Public Affairs and Cultural Re
lations Division Mr Î. E. Lyon, First Assistant Secretary, Defence Division Mr D. C. Rutter, Assistant Secretary, Personnel Branch Mr R. D. Sturkey, Assistant Secretary, Economic Organisations Branch Mr R. A. Walker, Assistant Secretary, Nuclear Safeguards Branch Mr A. D. Brown, Assistant Secretary, Executive Secretariat Mr F. B. Hall, Chief of Protocol Mr C. A. Bromwich, Assistant Secretary, Technical Services Branch Mr G. Cotsell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Administrative Services Branch Mr J. Trotter, Director, Staffing, Training and Head of Mission Section Mr P. Knight, Secretary, Committee on Australia’s Relations with the Third
World Mr K. R. Fraser, Acting Assistant Secretary, Papua New Guinea Branch Mr B. L. Parkes, Director, Finance Section Mr K. A. Oakman, Acting Director, Property and Office Services Section Mr J. Lovegrove, Director, Communications Section Mr E. G. Dobson, Director, ADP Section Mr N. J. Kelly, Budget Officer MrD. R. O ’Neill, Acting Science Adviser Mr A. J. Behm, Nuclear Policy Branch Australian Development Assistance Bureau:
Dr I. S. Mitchell, First Assistant Secretary, Policy, Training and Organisations Division Dr R. C. Manning, First Assistant Secretary, Bilateral Programs Division Mr K. Detto, Acting Assistant Secretary, International Organisations and
Liaison Branch Mr R. G. Spratt, Assistant Secretary, Pacific, Asia, Africa Programs Branch Mr B. Bray, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Services Branch Miss M. R. McGovern, Assistant Secretary, South-East Asia Programs Branch Dr J. Baker, Assistant Secretary, Policy Development and Co-ordination
Branch Mr C. E. T. Terrell, Assistant Secretary, Development Training Branch Mr J. R. M. Wolfe, Assistant Secretary, Program Planning and Review Branch Mr N. Hunt, Head, Finance Section Mr E. M. Latham, Acting Head, Program Planning and Development Section Mr N. R. Ross, Head, Information and Non-Government Organisations Mr R. Vizard. Head, International Organisations Section
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Mr L. Watters, Head, Placement Control Section Mr G. J. Reid, Head, Services Sub-section Mr K. W. Aspinall, Head, PNG Section Mr R. C. B. Brown, Head, Indonesia Section, South East Asia Branch Department of Finance:
Mr R. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr J. Wojtaszak, Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 315-319 — Department of Foreign Affairs (Document A)
Divisions 851-853 — Department of Foreign Affairs (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De partment of Foreign Affairs.
4. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee considered matters for inclusion in the Draft Report.
5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.45 a.m. 27 October 1978.
6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Colston, Davidson, Martin, McLaren and Wriedt (5). Senators Puplick, Rae, Teague and Walsh also took part in the Committee’s proceedings.
K. J. MARTIN Chairman.
25
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 12
TUESDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 9.00 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Martin) took the Chair.
2. MINUTES: On the motion of Senator McLaren the minutes of the previous meet ings were confirmed.
3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Chairman presented a Draft Report for the Committee’s consideration. On the motion of Senator Davidson the Draft Report was agreed to with amendments.
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.30 a.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members were present: Senators Colston, Davidson, Martin, McLaren and Wriedt (5).
K. J. MARTIN Chairman
26
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B REPORT TO THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B
REPORT TO THE SENATE
Estimates Committee B has the honour to report to the Senate.
1. On 12 September 1978, the Senate referred to the Committee the Departmen tal Estimates for the year 1978-79 relating to the following Departments:
Attorney-General’s Trade and Resources Employment and Industrial Relations National Development
Special Trade Representative
2. The Committee has considered these Estimates, together with the Depart mental Explanatory Notes, and has received evidence in relation to them from the Attorney-General, Senator Durack, and officers of the Departments concerned. Cop ies of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with the Appro priation Bill (No. 1) 1978-79 and the Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1978-79. Certain
answers to questions which were deferred and subsequently given in writing since the Committee’s last hearings will be tabled in the Senate, and incorporated in the final Hansard report of the Committee’s hearings.
3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters arising from its consideration of the Estimates:
ATTORNEY-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT Payments to Judiciary: Reports of previous Committees which have examined this Department’s Estimates have drawn attention to a continuing irregularity in the payments made to certain
members of the judiciary in lieu of long service leave. The Committees concerned have received from successive Attorneys-General assurances that legislation would be introduced. The Committee is pleased to report that the Attorney-General has advised that he intends to introduce the promised Bill within the next few weeks.
The Committee emphasises, however, that it endorses the recommendation of Es timates Committee E in its May 1978 report that, ‘in the event of any future provision for payments of this nature in the absence of statutory authority’, such provision should be opposed until statutory authority is provided.
Advance to the Minister for Finance: Certain funds for the Australian Legal Aid office were provided through the Advance to the Minister for Finance. The Committee is not in any doubt that the expenditure was necessarily incurred and could not reasonably have been predicted at the time of
the initial appropriation or when additional estimates were being sought. The Com mittee also realises that the expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance is subject to annual scrutiny by the Joint Committee of Public Accounts.
Nevertheless, the Committee is concerned that Estimates Committees, which are charged with the responsibility for examining estimates of specific departments, do not have the opportunity to scrutinise those funds which have been appropriated from the Advance.
29
It is noted that the 1977-78 statement of expenditure under the Advance to the Minister for Finance was tabled in the Senate on 22 August 1978, and it is currently listed on the Notice Paper for consideration in Committee of the Whole. The Committee recommends that expenditure by individual departments under the Advance to the Minister for Finance be referred to the appropriate Estimates Committees for consideration in conjunction with the particulars of proposed expenditure.
DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Two significant matters to which attention has previously been directed by the Senate came under scrutiny by the Committee in its consideration of these estimates.
(a) Staff Ceilings: The first relates to the application of a restrictive public service staff ceilings policy to an area to which the criterion of reducing government expenditure is irrelevant. It be came clear from evidence concerning the commercial value of radio-isotope pro
duction, both for use within Australia and as a source of export income, that a major factor militating against optimal development of a much-needed, and marketable, commodity was a lack of adequate staff. The imposition of staff ceilings, together with
a staff reduction based on natural attrition rather than planned retrenchment, has led to limitations on productive capacity. Estimates Committee E, in its May 1978 report, also drew attention to the same problem in relation to the Small Arms Factory at Lithgow. Estimates Committee B
agrees with the conclusion reached by that Committee that ‘all Government under takings fulfilling a commercial role should, so far as possible, be managed on a com mercial basis rather than that appropriate to the public service’.
(b) Annual Reports: The second matter concerns the problem of the late presentation of annual reports—a problem which has vexed the Senate and has severely hampered Committees, par ticularly in their consideration of one-line appropriations.
The Committee, in examining the proposed estimates for the Australian Atomic Energy Commission, was forced to rely on the 1976-77 report for an understanding of more detailed aspects of the Commission’s functions and accounts than could reasonably have been provided in the Explanatory Notes supplied.
Evidence to the Committee indicated that the report for 1977-78 had been completed early in the 1978-79 financial year, and delays in its presentation were caused by queries raised by the Auditor-General in relation to the form of financial statements.
Where the certification of financial statements is the cause of delay in the presen tation of a Report, the Committee sees no reason why the Report should be withheld, but rather believes that it should be presented with a qualifying statement explaining the nature of the delay in relation to certification.
The Committee commends to the Senate, for general application, the recommen dation of the Standing Committee on Finance and Government Operations in re lation to the Australian Housing Corporation Annual Report 1974-75 that: ‘. . · if a Report, with accounts in a form approved by the Department of
Finance, and/or the Auditor-General’s Report, is not ready for presentation to the Parliament within 9 months of the end of the previous financial year, then the Minis ter should, within 15 sitting days, present an interim report to the Parliament on the Corporation’s activities, together with informal financial statements, and an expla nation for the unavailability of the unaudited accounts ’.
30
Decentralisation Advisory Board: In its consideration of this item (Division 883.6), the Committee touched on a matter of principle which has been the subject of considerable debate in the Senate. Information was sought concerning the interest rates applying to loans granted by the Decentralisation Advisory Board to successful applicants for funds. Questioning revealed a reluctance to divulge the rates on the grounds of confidentiality of infor
mation provided to the Board. The Attorney-General indicated that there was also some question of commercial confidence involved. The Committee pressed its re quest, and the information was later supplied to its satisfaction. While the Committee commends both the Attorney-General and the Minister whom he was representing for acceding to the request, it nonetheless emphasises the
attitude long held by the Senate that the ground of commercial confidence does not prima facie override the higher principle of public accountability for funds expended. It is for the Committee to consider the relevant weight to be given to the conflicting interests.
The Committee recommends that the Standing Orders be amended to enable an Estimates Committee to take evidence in camera where commercial or other con fidence is involved and it is appropriate that such confidentiality be protected.
DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND RESOURCES Payments to or for the States: The Committee noted in its consideration of Division 952—Payments to or for the States— that, in an agreement made on 23 February 1977 with the Queensland
Government relating to unemployment relief, the Commonwealth Government requested an audited statement that expenditure was undertaken in accordance with the grants made. No such statement has been received. In the absence of an acceptable explanation, the Senate may wish to consider its
attitude towards the approval of any further funds to the State of Queensland under this item.
ONE-LINE APPROPRIATIONS Throughout its consideration of the departmental estimates, the Committee was con cerned at the variable quality of details provided in the explanatory notes relating to one-line appropriations. Some were excellent, while others were quite inadequate.
The Committee endorses the opinion, expressed in the May 1978 report of Estimates Committee B, that a proposed report of the Finance and Government Operations Committee on the appropriateness and feasibility of setting out detailed estimates for one-line appropriations in the appropriation bills—and, by extension, the explanatory
notes— will be of great assistance to all Estimates Committees.
SCHEDULING OF ESTIMATES COMMITTEE HEARINGS The Committee draws attention to the problems which are created when Estimates Committees are scheduled to sit but are unable to commence hearings due to the con tinuation of the sitting of the Senate.
On 19 October, this Committee, together with Committees A and F, was sched uled to sit at 12 noon. The Senate did not, however, adjourn until 6 p.m., and Com mittee hearings therefore did not begin until the evening. This involved a consider able waste of time by the numerous departmental officers waiting to give evidence to
the Committees. This Committee believes that the situation was both avoidable and inexcusable. The Committees should be enabled to sit in accordance with the predetermined schedule.
24621/ 79-3 31
4. In conclusion, the Committee expresses its appreciation of the assistance given by the Attorney-General and the officers of the various departments who assisted the Committee.
7 November 1978
P. E. RAE Chairman
32
Estimates Committee B Minutes of Proceedings
THE SENATE
THURSDAY, 28 SEPTEMBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.00 a.m.
2. MEMBERSHIP OF THE COMMITTEE: The Resolution of the Senate of 20 September 1978 recording variations to the membership of Estimates Committee B was reported. The new membership is as follows: Senator J. N. Button
Senator G. J. Evans Senator A. J. Messner Senator P. E. Rae Senator M. C. Tate Senator H. W. Young
3. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The Resolution of the Senate of 12 September 1978 that the Committee consider the Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending 30 June 1979 and report to the Senate on or before Tues
day, 7 November 1979, was reported.
4. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: On the motion of Senator Young, Senator Rae was elected Chairman of the Committee.
5. RESEARCH FOR COMMITTEE: On the motion of Senator Button, it was de cided that all material prepared for the Committee be made available to other Senators, upon request.
6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.15 a.m.
7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Button, Messner and Young.
P. E. RAE Chairman
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 6
35
THE SENATE
TUESDAY, 10 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.15 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.
2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979.
3. PARTICULARS OF PRO PO SED E X PE N D IT U R E 1 9 7 8 -7 9 - ATTORNEY-GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT:
Appearing: Senator the Hon. P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers: Attorney-General’s Department: Mr F. J. Mahony, OBE, Deputy Secretary
Mr A. R. Neaves, Crown Solicitor Mr L. J. Curtis, First Assistant Secretary, Federal Courts Division Mr L. G. Glare, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Special Services Division
Mr A. W. Wynne, Acting Director, Australian Legal Aid Office Division Mr A. C. C. Menzies, First Assistant Secretary, Justice Division Mr E. H. Tudor, First Assistant Secretary, Legislative Drafting Division Mr P. R. Loof, First Assistant Secretary, 6th UN Congress on Crime Mr N. E. Sainsbury, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Judicial Administration Mr J. H. Greenwell, Senior Assistant Secretary, Intellectual Property and Indus
trial Law Branch Mr C. C. Creswell, Senior Assistant Secretary, Family Law Branch Mr J. L. M. Carnsew, Assistant Secretary, Special Services Branch Mr P. E. Baskett, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr R. M. Smeaton, Acting Assistant Secretary, Establishments and Planning
Branch Mr T. Polleycutt, Director ADP Branch Mr R. Venables, Acting Senior Finance Officer Mr K. Nixon, Principal Registrar, Family Court of Australia Mr J. P. Harkins, Deputy Chairman, Commonwealth Legal Aid Commission Mr P. Sharkey, Director, ACT Legal Aid Commission Mr W. Clifford. Director, Australian Institute of Criminology Mr R. Mills, Registrar, Administrative Appeals Tribunal Mr N. T. Sexton, Director, Legislative Drafting Institute Department of Finance:
Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 7
36
The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Division 165 — Attorney-General’s Department (Document A) Division 173 - Attorney-General’s Department (Document A) Divisions 166-172 — Attorney-General’s Department (Document A) The Committee proceeding to consider Division 175, Sub-divisions 1 and 2.
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.10 p.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator J. N. Button, Senator G. J. Evans, Senator A. J. Messner, Senator M. C. Tate, Senator H. W. Young. Senators Hamer, MacGib- bon and Townley also attended the Committee’s proceedings.
P. E. RAE Chairman
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 8
FRIDAY, 13 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.03 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79— ATTORNEY- GENERAL’S DEPARTMENT:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, ac companied by the following officers:
Attorney-General’s Department: Mr F. J. Mahoney, O.B.E., Deputy Secretary Mr A. R. Neaves, Crown Solicitor Mr L. J. Curtis, First Assistant Secretary, Federal Courts Division Mr L. G. Glare, First Assistant Secretary, Management and Special Services
Division Mr A. W. Wynne, Acting Director, Australian Legal Aid Office Division Mr A. C. C. Menzies, First Assistant Secretary, Justice Division Mr E. H. Tudor, First Assistant Secretary, Legislative Drafting Division Mr P. R. Loof, First Assistant Secretary, Sixth United Nations Congress on
Crime Mr N. E. Sainsbury, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Judicial Administration Mr J. H. Greenwell, Senior Assistant Secretary, Intellectual Property and Indus
trial Law Branch Mr C. C. Creswell, Senior Assistant Secretary, Family Law Branch Mr J. L. M. Carnsew, Assistant Secretary, Special Services Branch Mr P. E. Baskett, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr R. M. Smeaton, Acting Assistant Secretary, Establishments and Planning
Branch Mr T. Polleycutt, Director ADP Branch Mr R. Venables, Acting Senior Finance Officer Mr K. Nixon, Principal Registrar, Family Court of Australia Mr J. P. Harkins, Deputy Chairman, Commonwealth Legal Aid Commission Mr P. Sharkey. Director, Australian Capital Territory Legal Aid Commission Mr W. Clifford. Director, Australian Institute of Criminology Mr C. R. Bevan, Assistant Director (Training), Australian Institute of
Criminology Mr R. Mills, Registrar, Administrative Appeals Tribunal Mr N. T. Sexton, Director. Legislative Drafting Institute Department of Finance:
Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch
38
The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Division 175-192 — Attorney-General’s Department (Document A) Division 823-825 — Attorney-General’s Department (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Attorney-General’s Department.
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF TRADE AND RESOURCES:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable P. D. Durack. Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Trade and Resources: Mr W. H. Ratcliff, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch
MrS. J. Ryan, Director, Finance and Services, Management Services Branch Mr G. H. Hall, Assistant Secretary, Trade Promotion and Services Division Mr G. Tarjan, Acting Assistant Secretary, Trade Promotion and Services Division
Dr A. J. Moran, Assistant Secretary, Economic and Policy Division Mr J. Jackson, Acting Director. Economic and Policy Division Mr P. S. Field, Assistant Secretary, Commodities No. 2 Division Mr D. Spencer, Senior Project Officer, International Trade Policy Division Mr P. Marcusson, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Branch
Mr P. R. Daly, Assistant Director. Trade Relations and Markets Division Mr R. P. Maxwell, Principal Adviser, Uranium Division Mr D. J. Gates, Assistant Secretary. Uranium Division Dr R. K. Warner. Chief, Production Division. Uranium Branch. Australian
Atomic Energy Commission Mr R. Baker. Acting Assistant Secretary. Finance. Australian Atomic Energy Commission Mr A. C. Girard, Chief Administrative Officer and Alternate Board Member,
Joint Coal Board Mr L. G. O ’Brien. Chief Finance Officer. Joint Coal Board Department of Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer. Accounting Operations Branch
Mr C. J. Dolman. Senior Finance Officer. Accounting Operations Branch The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Division 646 — Department of Trade and Resources ( Document A) Division 953 — Department of Trade and Resources ( Document B) The Committee proceeding to consider Division 640.
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 4.49 p.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman). Senator G. J. Evans. Senator A. J. Messner. Senator M. C. Tate. Senator H. W. Young.
P. E. RAE Chairman
39
THE SENATE
THURSDAY, 19 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 8.04 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF EMPLOYMENT AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable P. D. Durack, Attorney-General, accompanied by the following officers:
Department o f Employment and Industrial Relations: Mr B. J. Tregillis, Deputy Secretary Mr K. J. Fitzgerald, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Manpower Development and Operations No. 1 Mr J. E. Cooley, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management and Secretariat Mr P. J. Beveridge, First Assistant Secretary, Industrial Relations Division Mr J. E. Devitt, Acting Director, Finance Mr B. Hooke, General Manager, Commonwealth Accommodation and Cater
ing Services Ltd Mr D. L. Linehan, Director, Industrial Relations Bureau Mr E. H. Lamb, Assistant Director, Management Services of the Industrial Re
lations Bureau Mr L. W. Loudon, Assistant Director, Policy Planning, Industrial Relations Bureau Mr C. J. Lock, Acting Principal Executive Officer (Finance) Department o f Finance:
Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer. Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
Divisions 286-294 — Department of Employment and Industrial Relations (Document A) Division 838 — Department of Employment and Industrial Relations (Document B) Division 295 — Department of Employment and Industrial Relations (Document
A)
Divisions 839-840 — Department of Employment and Industrial Relations (Document B)
The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De partment of Employment and Industrial Relations. And the Committee having continued to sit until Twelve o’clock midnight—Friday, 20 October 1978.
3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 12.05 a.m.
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 9
40
4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator J. N. Button, Senator G. J. Evans, Senator A. J. Messner, Senator M. C. Tate, Senator H. W. Young. Senator Mulvihill also attended the Committee’s proceedings.
P. E. RAE Chairman
41
THE SENATE
MONDAY, 23 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.06 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-19-DEPART MENT OF NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, ac companied by the following officers: Department o f National Development: Mr F. J. Smith, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch
Mr L. R. Riches, Acting Director, Finance and General Services Mr P. P. Power, Acting Assistant Director, Finance and Accounts Mr D. J. Crombie, Acting Finance Officer, Management Services Branch Mr A. Manderson, First Assistant Secretary, Water Division Mr P. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Uranium and General Division Mr R. Hopkins, Assistant Secretary, Energy, Research and Development
Division Mr B. R. Jones, Assistant Secretary, Programs Branch, Decentralisation Division Mr E. G. Davenport, Assistant Secretary, Growth Centres Programs Branch,
Decentralisation Division Mr A. Renwick, Acting Assistant Director (Operations), Bureau of Mineral Resources Mr J. Manning, Acting Senior Executive Officer. Division of National Mapping Mr A. A. Garran, Senior Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Division Mr P. Breslin, Principal Executive Officer, Energy Policy Division Mr A. Dixon, Acting Principal Executive Officer, Energy Policy Division Australian Atomic Energy Commission:
Dr G. L. Miles, Deputy Director, Operations at Research Establishments Mr R. J. Baker, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance Albury-Wodonga Development Corporation: Mr G. R. Andrew, Chief Administrative Officer Snowy Mountains Hydro-Electric Authority:
Mr R. E. Comer, Chief Administrative Officer Mr B. K. Shean, Assistant Accountant, Budget Pipeline Authority: Mr F. W. Noble, Finance Manager
Mr G. J. Jones, Budgetary Controller Department o f Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch.
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 10
42
The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration; Division 436.1 — Australian Atomic Energy Commission (Document A) Division 883.3 — Australian Atomic Energy Commission (Document B) Division 434 — Albury-Wodonga Development Corporation (Document A) Division 885.2 — Albury-Wodonga Development Corporation (Document B)
Division 883.2 — Snowy Mountains Hydro-Electric Authority (Document B) Divisions 430-432 — Department of National Development (Document A) Division 883.1 — Department of National Development (Document B) Division 883.4 — Pipeline Authority (Document B) Divisions 885-887 — Department of National Development (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De
partment of National Development.
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF TRADE AND RESOURCES:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, ac companied by the following officers: Department o f Trade and Resources: Mr W. H. Ratcliff, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch
Mr S. J. Ryan, Director, Finance and Services, Management Services Branch Mr G. J. Hall, Assistant Secretary, Trade Promotion and Services Division Mr G. Tarjan, Acting Assistant Secretary, Trade Promotion and Services Division
Dr A. J. Moran, Assistant Secretary, Economic and Policy Division Mr W. G. McGregor, Director, Commodities No. 1 Division Mr P. S. Field, Assistant Secretary, Commodities No. 2 Division
Mr D. Spencer, Senior Project Officer, International Trade Policy Division Mr P. Marcusson, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Branch Mr R. P. Maxwell, Principal Adviser, Uranium Division Mr D. J. Gates, Principal Adviser, Uranium Division Department o f Finance:
Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch. The Committee having previously considered Divisions 646 (Document A) and 953 (Document B) the Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 640-644 — Department of Trade and Resources (Document A)
Divisions 950-953 — Department ofTrade and Resources (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De partment ofTrade and Resources.
4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF SPECIAL TRADE REPRESENTATIVE:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable P. D. Durack, Q.C., Attorney-General, ac companied by the following officers: Department o f Special Trade Representative: Mr F. E. Henderson, First Assistant Secretary
Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch
43
The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Division 620 — Department of the Special Trade Representative (Document A) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De partment of the Special Trade Representative.
5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 11.12 p.m.
6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator G. J. Evans, Senator A. J. Messner, Senator M. C. Tate, Senator H. W. Young. Senator MacGibbon also attended the Com mittee’s proceedings.
P. E. RAE Chairman
44
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 11
TUESDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 9.00 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Rae) took the Chair.
2. MINUTES: On the motion of Senator Button, the Minutes of the Meetings of 28 September, and 10, 13, 19 and 23 October 1978, previously circulated to Committee members, were confirmed.
3. CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT: The Committee proceeded to con sider the draft report of the Chairman. The Committee agreed to the Report, with an amendment.
4. ADDITIONAL REPLIES: The Committee resolved that the additional replies received by the Committee from Departments, together with a letter and press state ment of the Minister for National Development and a letter from Nicholas Clark and Associates, be tabled in the Senate and incorporated in the Hansard record of the Committee’s proceedings.
5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.35 a.m.
6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senator P. E. Rae (Chairman), Senator J. N. Button, Senator G. J. Evans, Senator M. C. Tate, Senator H. W. Young.
P. E. RAE Chairman
45
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C REPORT TO THE SENATE
24621/ 79-4
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C
REPORT TO THE SENATE
Estimates Committee C has the honour to present its Report to the Senate.
1. On 12 September 1978, the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates for the year 1978-79 relating to the following Departments:
Social Security Aboriginal Affairs Health Immigration and Ethnic Affairs
Veterans’Affairs
2. The Committee has considered these Estimates and has received explanations of them from the Minister for Social Security and officers of the departments con cerned. A copy of the Minutes of Proceedings and Hansard report of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with the Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1978-79 and the Appropriation Bill (No. 2)
1978-79.
3. The Committee draws the attention of the Senate to the following matters:
(a) Evaluation of Government Programs In September 1977, the following paragraph was included in Estimates Committee D ’s Report to the Senate: 5. Throughout its consideration of the Estimates, the Committee was concerned to note
that the funding of many government programs consistently takes place in the absence of stated objectives and without subsequent evaluations as to the effectiveness of the programs. The Committee believes that all programs which involve the expenditure of Commonwealth moneys should only be undertaken in line with stated government pol
icy or departmental objectives and that appropriate evaluations as to the effectiveness of the programs should reqularly be undertaken.
(i) Estimates Committee C is concerned that such evaluations are still not car ried out in a satisfactory manner, particularly in relation to programs proposed to be funded in the Estimates for the Departments of Aboriginal Affairs, Health and Social Security.
The Department of Social Security was questioned at some length about this issue without answers being given that entirely satisfied the Committee. Although the Committee was assured that examinations were carried out ‘systematically and over a period ’, to arrive at the best methods of determin
ing eligibility for pensions, the Committee was disconcerted by a comment by the Director-General, Mr P. J. Lanigan, who said that ‘In the short term we must depend on intuitive judgment’. Surely, before Australia-wide projects are undertaken, methods should be employed to assess their potential rather than rely on intuition.
Reference was made to the development of computer equipment within the Department of Social Security. Information was sought concerning any departmental evaluations which might have taken place on the existing equipment installed some four years ago. The Director-General (Mr
Lanigan) replied: ‘It is not really an appropriate situation for evalua tion . . . There is no point in evaluating something to tell you what you already know, that it is doing a good jo b ’. Mr Lanigan then went on to say
49
‘But it is deficient in the sense that it does not eliminate as many tedious rou tine processes as the system will when we can find the time and resources to bring it up to its fullest stage of development’. To these statements the Com mittee can only add that this is an area in which potential exists for significant savings to be made in administrative expenses and in the payment of pen sions. Therefore, reviews on the overall value of a system to the Department in comparison with alternatives, its effectiveness, and the methods by which it
might be improved must be undertaken on a continuing basis, and not in the ad hoc manner which is apparent from the evidence presented to the Committee. (ii) The Committee is similarly concerned with evaluation of the Drug Education Program (Department of Health—Division 325.3.06). In response to a re quest for further information the Department replied:
There has been little research conducted in Australia on the incidence of drug use and on measuring the impact of drug education programs on the level of drug abuse. The Department has collated the findings of drug use surveys but has been unable to draw reliable conclusions because of the sparsity of survey work
and lack of comparable data in the work that has been done.
It seems to the Committee that in the context of a widely acknowledged drug problem existing in Australia, the Department or appropriate authori ties should constantly be assessing the extent of drug use in Australia. Since the total Commonwealth expenditure to 30 June 1978 for the National Drug Education Program from its inception in 1970-71 is over $5 million and with estimated expenditure for 1978-79 being $1.2 million, the Committee is con cerned that evaluations are not being carried out concerning the effectiveness of the program. For example, is the Drug Education Program, in fact, effec tive: that is, are fewer adults or children taking drugs as a result of the program? Conversely, is the program positively counter-productive, as some overseas and indeed Australian surveys suggest that certain drug education programs encourage experimentation? The results of this type of evaluation would enable the program to be assessed and redirected, as necessary. (iii) Over recent years the Committee consistently has questioned the ecological
projects which are financed by the Department of Aboriginal Affairs through Applied Ecology Pty Ltd, a company wholly owned by the Commonwealth (Division 120.3.07— Support for Ecological Projects $1 000 000). The Com mittee is aware that numerous Parliamentary and independent inquiries have
been conducted into this matter. It also adds that it believes the rationale be hind these projects is commendable, namely, to employ Aboriginals in re mote areas in projects which can closely be related to Aboriginal culture. However, Commonwealth funds continue to be provided to support these projects which, in the Committee’s opinion, do not meet satisfactorily the essential purpose of the projects. It would appear that the funds appropriated to maintain these projects should provide greater employment opportunities for Aboriginals (see Estimates Committee C Hansard, 17 October 1978, pages 612-616). The Committee was informed that future projects will be evaluated adequately to judge their economic potential and social benefits before commencement. The Committee accepts this assurance. The Com
mittee can only comment that had adequate evaluations occurred prior to the implementation of these projects, many of the deficiencies referred to above and in the Estimates Committee C Hansard would have been minimised or avoided altogether.
50
In general the Committee is concerned at the lack of evaluation of many govern ment projects, the general inability of officers to answer questions, to the satisfaction of the Committee, concerning the need for evaluations and the extent to which they are being applied, and the apparent lack of implementation of programs on the basis of evaluations done to test both their feasibility in the first instance, and their effec tiveness in the second.
(b) Content of Appropriation Bills Examining the proposed expenditure for the Department of Social Security, the Com mittee was not entirely satisfied that the following expenditure, appearing for the first time, should have been included in Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1978-79—a Bill for the
ordinary annual services of the government which the Senate may not amend: International Year of the Child—Publicity Expenses: $100 000 (Department of Social Security, Division 590, sub-division 3, item 10). This expenditure is neither ‘ordinary’ nor ‘annual’. For the first time money is to be given to the States to publicise the International Year of the Child.
The Committee also asked why, in May of this year, another item—Grant to the United Nations Children’s Fund Committee of Australia for the International Year of the Child (Division 590.4.11)—was included in Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1977-78, a Bill which the Senate may not amend.
As a result of the Committee’s concern with this issue, the Department of Finance was asked to provide advice on the reasons why these items were included in Appro priation Bills which the Senate may not amend. In a letter to the Committee, Mr C. T. Monaghan, Acting First Assistant Secretary,
Department of Finance, said in part: By virtue of its policy of active support for the activities of a range of international bodies of which it is a member and for which it supports financially, Australia partici pates in a variety of new and ongoing programs of these bodies. In the case of the Inter national Year of the Child, its support for this program is being supplemented by a con
tribution to the UNICEF Committee of Australia to support the extension of the program in Australia. While there is sometimes a difficult line to be drawn between what constitutes new policy and what constitutes an extension of existing policy, the de
cision was taken that supplementary allocations in support of the International Year of the Child were pursuant to existing policy of support for UNICEF programs and pro vision was made in Appropriation Bill (No. 3) 1977-78 which was assented to on 12 June 1978. The Committee also asked the Department of Social Security whether there has been a
previous appropriation for publicity expenses for the International Year of the Child (Division 590.3.10). While there has been no specific previous appropriation for this purpose, consistent with the foregoing, the proposed expenditure under this item was not considered to constitute policy in its own right but to be an integral element in the
policy of support for the International Year of the Child. Accordingly provision was made in Appropriation Bill No. 1 1978-79. On 13 May 1965 the Treasurer (Mr Holt) stated in the House of Representatives that the Government had decided that henceforth there would be a separate bill, subject
to amendment by the Senate, which would contain appropriations for expenditure on, among other things, ‘New policies not authorised by special legislation’. Attention is drawn to Mr Monaghan’s observation that ‘. . . there is some times a difficult line to be drawn between what constitutes new policy and what con stitutes an extension of existing policy . . .’.
In this context, the Committee draws the Senate’s attention to the following para graph from the Report from the Committee appointed by Government Senators on Appropriation Bills and the Ordinary Annual Services of the Government, out of
51
which arose the decision to include new policies and other matters in an amendable Bill: 114. The Committee appreciates that departmental difficulties may arise in deciding which activity should, and which should not, be classified as new policy. We suggest
that, in cases of doubt, such doubts be resolved by excluding the appropriations from the Appropriation Bill for the ordinary annual services of the Government. The Committee feels that in respect o f‘International Year of the Child— Publicity Ex penses’ there is sufficient ‘doubt’ for the item to have been included in Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1978-79, which the Senate may amend. The Committee is concerned that on each recent occasion of the consideration of departmental estimates by Estimates Committees the attention of the Senate has been drawn to departures from established policy in this regard or to differences in in terpretation o f‘ordinary’ and ‘annual’ by Estimates Committees and the Department of Finance. This is despite the Resolution of the Senate on 17 February 1977 on this matter. Further, the Committee endorses the suggestion contained in the above quo tation from the Government Senators’ Committee, namely, that when ‘doubt’ exists, items should be included in Bills which can be amended by the Senate.
(c) Annual Reports The Committee has made a previous reference to the Senate relating to the late tabling of annual reports. Despite its concern expressed in May 1978 over the late
tabling of annual reports for 1976-77 for the Health Insurance Commission and the Department of Aboriginal Affairs (tabled in the Senate on 5 May 1978 and 2 May 1978, respectively), these were not available to the Committee for its consideration of departmental estimates. Other annual reports which the Committee sought reference to and which were not available were the latest annual reports for the Aboriginal Land Fund Commission and the Aboriginal Loans Commission. With the exception of the Annual Report for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs, no indication could
be given when these would be made available to the Parliament. In the Committee’s opinion, where it is anticipated that the tabling of annual reports may be delayed for one reason or other, interim reports should be tabled in the Parliament to ensure that adequate information on the operations of departments and statutory authorities is
available to assist a more thorough examination of departmental estimates by the Es timates Committees. 4. Additional information provided by departments in response to the Com mittee’s requests will be reproduced in the Estimates Committees’ Supplementary In formation H a n sa rd .
5. The Committee records its appreciation of the assistance given by the Minister for Social Security and officers of the various departments whose Estimates the Com mittee considered.
SHIRLEY WALTERS C h a ir m a n
52
Estimates Committee C Minutes of Proceedings
THE SENATE
WEDNESDAY, 27 SEPTEMBER 1978
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 5
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 9 a.m.
2. MEMBERSHIP OF COMMITTEE: The entry in the Journals of the Senate of 20 September 1978 recording the appointment of Senators Bonner, Coleman, Kil- gariflf and Mulvihill to Estimates Committee C was reported to the Committee.
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79: The entry in Journals of the Senate of 20 September 1978 referring the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure 1978-79 for the following departments was reported to the Committee:
D ivision
D ocum ent* * Page No. D epartm ent A m ount
$
A 117-119 590-591 Social S ecurity....................................... 304604000
B 24 939-940 Social S ecurity....................................... 60 046 000
A 10-12 120-125 Aboriginal Affairs ............................... 95 907 000
B 6 811-814 Aboriginal Affairs ............................... 34 699 000
A 75-79 325-335 Health .............................................. 1 915 791 000
B 15-16 855-856 Health ................................................ 95 473 000
A 85-87 360-364 Immigration and Ethnic Affairs . . . . 59018000 B 17-18 870-874 Immigration and Ethnic Affairs . . . . 1450000
A 132-135 690-693 Veterans’A f f a ir s ................................... 352 337 000
B 26 980-981 Veterans’A ff a ir s ................................... 13 137 000
* Document A— ‘Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979'. * Document B— ‘ Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979’.
4. REQUEST FOR RESEARCH: Consistent with the practice established during the consideration of Additional Estimates 1977-78, Committee Members requested the Secretariat to undertake research into specific matters connected with the depart mental estimates referred to the Committee.
5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 9.25 a.m.
6. ATTENDANCE: Senators Bonner, Coleman. Kilgariff and Walters.
SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman
55
TUESDAY, 10 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.15 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Walters) took the Chair.
2. STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made an introductory statement.
3. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79: Pursuant to Order of the Senate, the Committee commenced consideration of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending 30 June 1979 and the Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the Year End ing 30 June 1979.
4. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SECURITY:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Social Security: Mr P. J. Lanigan, Director-General
Mr I. Prowse, Acting Deputy Director-General Mrs M. Coleman, Director, Office of Child Care Mr R. Bohmer, Acting First Assistant Director-General (Benefits) Mr J. D. Hall, First Assistant Director-General (Rehabilitation and Subsidies) Mr L. H. Ryan, Acting First Assistant Director-General (Systems and
Operations) MrC. Calvert, Assistant Director-General (Finance) Mr J. Lleonart, Assistant Director-General (Management Services) Miss E. Jeffries, Assistant Director-General (Secretariat and Information) Mr J. Barich, Assistant Director-General (Projects and Statistics) Mr A. Herscovitch, Acting Assistant Director-General ( Research and Statistics) MrG. Phillis, Acting Assistant Director-General (Subsidies) Department o f Finance:
Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on Divisions 590-591, 939-940, Department of Social Security. Consideration commenced of the following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure: Divisions 590-591 — Social Security (Document A) $304 604 000
Divisions 939-940 — Social Security (Document B) $60 046 000 (Division 590 being considered by the Committee).
6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.30 p.m.
7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Coleman, Grimes, Kilgariff, Mulvihill and Walters.
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 6
SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman
56
THE SENATE
MONDAY, 16 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.06 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Walters) took the Chair.
2. CONSIDERATION RESUMED OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SECURITY:
A p p e a r in g : Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, accompanied by the following officers: D e p a r tm e n t o f S o c ia l S e c u rity :
Mr P. J. Lanigan, Director-General Mr I. Prowse, Acting Deputy Director-General Mrs M. Coleman, Director, Office of Child Care Mr R. Bohmer, Acting First Assistant Director-General ( Benefits)
Mr L. Portley, Acting First Assistant Director-General (Management) Mr J. D. Hall, First Assistant Director-General (Rehabilitation and Subsidies) Mr L. H. Ryan, Acting First Assistant Director-General (Systems and Operations)
Mr C. Calvert, Assistant Director-General (Finance) Mr J. Lleonart, Assistant Director-General (Management Services) Miss E. Jeffries, Assistant Director-General (Secretariat and Information) Mr J. Barich, Assistant Director-General (Project and Statistics)
Mr A. Herscovitch, Acting Assistant Director-General (Research and Statistics) Mr G. Phillis, Acting Assistant Director-General (Subsidies) Mr A. S. Colliver, First Assistant Director-General (Social Welfare) D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Grade II, Accounting Operations Branch The following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure were considered: Divisions 590-591 — Social Security (Document A) $304 604 000
Divisions 939-940 — Social Security (Document B) $60 046 000 Consideration of the Estimates for the department completed, subject to an undertak ing by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.
3. CONSIDERATION OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS:
A p p e a r in g : Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the following officers: D e p a r tm e n t o f A b o r ig in a l A ffa ir s :
Mr P. J. Sullivan, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division Mr L. A. J. Malone, First Assistant Secretary, Policy One Division Mr C. N. Perkins, First Assistant Secretary, Policy Two Division Mr W. L. O ’Neil, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 7
57
Mr N. Jansz, Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budget Branch Mr J. Angel, Assistant Secretary, Operations Management Branch Ms A. Somers, Assistant Secretary, Policy Branch Mr R. Toohey, Director, Programs and Budget Branch Mr W. Miller, Assistant Director, Programs and Budget Branch Mr K. Wisdom, Director, Policy Branch Mr W. Oakes, Assistant Secretary, Research and Overview Branch Mr B. Thomas, Director, Policy Branch Ms C. A. Watson, Clerk, Class 6, Special Projects Section D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Grade II, Accounting Operations Branch The Chairman called on Divisions 120-125 and 811-814, Department of Aboriginal Affairs. Consideration commenced of the following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure:
Divisions 120-125 Aboriginal Affairs (Document A) $95 907 000 Divisions 811-814 Aboriginal Affairs (Document B) $34 699 000 (Division 120 being considered by the Committee).
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.01 p.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Bonner, Grimes, Kilgariff, Mulvihill and Walters. Senators Keeffe, Robertson and Teague were also in attendance.
SHIRLEY WALTERS C h a ir m a n
58
THE SENATE
TUESDAY, 17 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.00 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Walters) took the Chair.
2. CONSIDERATION RESUMED OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Aboriginal Affairs:
Mr P. J. Sullivan, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division Mr L. A. J. Malone, First Assistant Secretary, Policy One Division Mr C. N. Perkins, First Assistant Secretary, Policy Two Division Mr W. L. O’Neil, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch
Mr N. Jansz, Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budget Branch Mr J. Angel, Assistant Secretary, Operations Management Branch Ms A. Somers, Assistant Secretary, Policy Branch Mr R. Toohey, Director, Programs and Budget Branch
Mr W. Miller, Assistant Director, Programs and Budget Branch Mr K. Wisdom, Director, Policy Branch Mr W. Oakes, Assistant Secretary, Research and Overview Branch Mr R. D. Cooper, Secretary, Applied Ecology Pty Ltd
Mr R. Schuler, General Manager, Aboriginal Hostels Ltd Mr J. Rooks, Secretary, Aboriginal Hostels Ltd Ms C. A. Watson, Clerk, Class 6, Special Projects Section Department of Finance:
Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Grade II, Accounting Operations Branch Mr J. Sullivan, Senior Finance Officer, Grade II, Accounting Operations Branch Consideration resumed of the following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure:
Divisions 120-125 — Aboriginal Affairs (Document A) $95 907 000 Divisions 811-814 — Aboriginal Affairs (Document B) $34 699 000 (Division 120 being considered by the Committee).
3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.02 p.m.
4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Bonner, Coleman, Kilgariff, Mulvihill and Walters. Senators Georges and Teague were also in attendance.
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 8
SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman
59
THE SENATE
FRIDAY, 20 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.00 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Walters) took the Chair.
2. CONSIDERATION RESUMED OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS:
A p p e a r in g : Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, accompanied by the following officers: D e p a r tm e n t o f A b o r ig in a l A ffa ir s :
Mr P. J. Sullivan, First Assistant Secretary, Management Division Mr L. A. J. Malone, First Assistant Secretary, Policy One Division Mr C. N. Perkins, First Assistant Secretary, Policy Two Division Mr W. L. O’Neil, Acting Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr N. Jansz, Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budget Branch Mr J. Angel, Assistant Secretary, Operations Management Branch Ms A. Somers, Assistant Secretary, Policy Branch Mr R. Toohey, Director, Programs and Budget Branch Mr W. Miller, Assistant Director, Programs and Budget Branch Mr K. Wisdom, Director, Policy Branch Mr W. Oakes, Assistant Secretary, Research and Overview Branch Mr K. Kocken, Director, Overview Section Mr B. Thomas, Director Branch D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Grade II, Accounting Operations Branch Consideration of the Estimates for the department completed, subject to an undertak ing by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPART MENT OF IMMIGRATION AND ETHNIC AFFAIRS:
A p p e a r in g : Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, ac companied by the following officers: D e p a r tm e n t o f Im m ig r a tio n a n d E th n ic A ffa i r s :
Mr S. J. Dempsey, Deputy Secretary Mr N. Fisher, First Assistant Secretary, Division 2 Mr I. Lindenmeyer, First Assistant Secretary, Division 3 Mr B. Machin, Assistant Secretary, Adult Education Branch Mr P. H. Bennett, Assistant Secretary, Management Branch Mr A. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Control Branch MrS. Lewis, Assistant Secretary, Citizenship Branch Mr B. Murray, Assistant Secretary. Ethnic Affairs Branch
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 9
60
Mr B. Essai, Director, Migrant Community Services Mr B. Freedman, Director, Information Branch Mr I. L. MacLeod, Director, Establishments and Manpower Planning Mr A. W. Burt, Acting Director, Finance and General Services Department o f Finance:
Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Grade II, Accounting Operations Branch Mr J. Sullivan, Senior Finance Officer, Grade II, Accounting Operations Branch The Chairman called on Divisions 360-364 and 870-874, Department of Immi gration and Ethnic Affairs. The following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure were considered:
Divisions 340-364 — Immigration and Ethnic Affairs (Document A) $59 018 000 Divisions 870-874 — Immigration and Ethnic Affairs (Document B) $1 450 000 Consideration of the Estimates for the department completed, subject to an undertak ing by the Minister to provide additional information to the Committee.
4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPART MENT OF HEALTH:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Health, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Health:
Dr C. P. Evans, Deputy Director-General Mr M. Carroll, Acting Deputy Director-General Mr J. S. McCauley, First Assistant Director-General, Health Services Division Mr L. W. Lane, First Assistant Director-General, Management Services
Division Mr R. H. Searle, First Assistant Director-General, Quarantine Division Dr R. W. Gumming, Acting First Assistant Director-General, Medical Services Division
Mr V. Pickering, Acting First Assistant Director-General, Medical Benefits Division Dr W. A. Langsford, First Assistant Director-General, Public Health Division Mr R. E. M. Wilson. Assistant Director-General, Therapeutic Goods Branch Mr G. F. Bunfield, Acting Assistant Director-General, Pharmacy Earnings and
Projects Branch Mr C. R. Wilcox, Deputy General Manager. Health Insurance Commission Mr E. R. Boardman, Commissioner, Capital Territory Health Commission Dr K. W. Edmondson, First Assistant Director-General, National Health and
Medical Research Council Division Department o f Finance: Mr R. J. Gowing, Senior Finance Officer, Grade II, Accounting Operations Branch The Chairman called on Divisions 325-335 and 855-856, Department of Health. Consideration commenced of the following Particulars of Proposed Expenditures:
Divisions 325-335 — Health (Document A) $1 915 791 000 Divisions 855-856 — Health ( Document B) $95 473 000 (Division 325 being considered by the Committee).
5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 4.31 p.m.
61
6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Coleman, Kilgariff, Mulvihill and Walters. Senator McLaren was also in attendance.
SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman
6 2
THE SENATE
THURSDAY, 26 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.55 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Walters) took the Chair.
2. CONSIDERATION RESUMED OF PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Health, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Health:
Dr C. P. Evans, Deputy Director-General Mr M. Carroll, Acting Deputy Director-General Mr J. S. McCauley, First Assistant Director-General, Health Services Division Mr L. W. Lane, First Assistant Director-General, Management Services
Division Mr R. H. Searle, First Assistant Director-General, Quarantine Division Dr K. W. Edmondson, First Assistant Director-General, National Health and Medical Research Council Division Dr W. A. Langsford, First Assistant Director-General, Public Health Division Dr D. B. Travers, First Assistant Director-General, Medical Services Division
Mr V. Pickering, Acting First Assistant Director-General, Medical Benefits Division Mr R. E. M. Wilson, Assistant Director-General, Therapeutic Goods Branch Mr G. F. Bunfield, Acting Assistant Director-General, Pharmacy Earnings and
Projects Branch Mr C. R. Wilcox, Deputy General Manager, Health Insurance Commission Mr E. R. Boardman, Commissioner, Capital Territory Health Commission Department of Finance:
MrD. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Consideration of the Estimates for the Department completed, subject to an under taking by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE FOR THE DEPART MENT OF VETERANS’ AFFAIRS:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security and Minister representing the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, accompanied by the fol lowing officers: Department of Veterans’ Affairs:
Mr G. T. Miller, First Assistant Commissioner, Management Services Division Mr G. A. Woodward, Director, Finance, Management Services Division Mr K. H. Ryan, Assistant Director, Budgets and Accounts, Management Ser vices Division
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 10
63
Dr Î. M. Kehoe, Deputy Chief Director, Medical Services Mr B. E. O’Shannassy, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Treatment Services Division Mr R. J. Hill, Assistant Commissioner, Benefits and Legislation Division Mr A. J. Selleck, General Manager, Defence Service Homes Corporation Mr J. Reynolds, Director, Financial Management, Defence Service Homes
Corporation Department o f Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The Chairman called on Divisions 690-693 and 980-981, Department of Veterans’ Affairs. The following Particulars of Proposed Expenditure were considered:
Divisions 690-693 — Veterans’Affairs (Document A) $352 337 000 Divisions 980-981 — Veterans’Affairs (Document B) $13 137000 Consideration of the Estimates for the Department completed subject to an undertak ing by the Minister to provide replies to a number of questions.
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 6.00 p.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Bonner, Coleman, Grimes, Kilgariff, Mulvihill and Walters. Senator Teague was also in attendance.
SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman
64
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE C
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 11
TUESDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 1.30 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Walters) took the Chair.
2. CONFIRMATION OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the previous meetings held on 27 September, 10, 16, 17,20 and 26 October were read and confirmed.
3. CONSIDERATION OF REPORT: The Chairman presented her draft report to the Committee. Discussion ensued. Resolved: That the Report be agreed to.
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 1.38 p.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Coleman, Kilgariff, Mulvihill and Walters.
SHIRLEY WALTERS Chairman
65
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D REPORT TO THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D
REPORT TO THE SENATE
1. Estimates Committee D has the honour to present its report to the Senate. 2. Pursuant to the order of the Senate the Committee has considered the esti mates of proposed expenditure of the following Departments: Department of Science
Department of Primary Industry Department of the Northern Territory* Department of Construction Department of Home Affairs
Department of the Capital Territory The Committee has received explanations of the proposed expenditure from the Min ister for Science and officers of the departments concerned. 3. The minutes of proceedings of the Committee are included in this Report and
the Hansard report of the evidence taken is presented herewith. Written answers fur nished by departments will be presented separately and printed in the Hansard record. 4. The attention of the Senate is drawn to the following:
(i) Department o f Science—Design Study for Antarctic Ship (Division 540/3/10) $100 000 In its report in October 1977 Estimates Committee E observed the failure to investigate alternatives to the hire of ships for Antarctic expeditions, and in its report in May 1978 Estimates Committee D commented upon difficulties in relation to the availability of vessels for hire. This Committee was pleased to
note that funds are being provided this year to proceed with the design of a ship which would be owned and operated by Australia for Australian Antarc tic purposes, and which may possibly be built by 1982. As the Minister for Science pointed out, however, the Government is not yet committed to the
building of the ship (Hansard, 12 October 1978, p. 129). (ii) Department o f Science—Australian Institute of Marine Science (Division 552) $2 069 000 The Director of the Australian Institute of Marine Science confirmed evi
dence, given by the previous Director before Estimates Committee E last year, that with the completion of its new building, and with the staff ceilings applying, the Institute has facilities, provided at a cost of $12.8 million, which are ‘under-occupied and therefore under-utilised’ (Hansard, 12 October
1978, p. 146). (iii) Repairs and Maintenance Items It has been pointed out by a member of the Committee that it is difficult to come to a judgment on items for the repair and maintenance or partial re
placement of equipment unless the capital cost of the equipment being repaired and maintained or partially replaced is known. The Committee sup ports that view and suggests that in future, where possible, figures for the capital cost of the equipment concerned be shown in departmental explana
tory notes as part of the explanation of such items.
* This department was abolished after the referral of the estimates to the Committee, and its functions assumed by the Department of Home Affairs.
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(iv) Computers Several Estimates Committees have made comments relating to the cost to the Commonwealth of the purchase or use of computers by departments. In evidence before this Committee and other Estimates Committees reference
has been made to the Inter-Departmental Committee which scrutinises pur chase and use of computers. A statement was supplied to this Committee on the Public Service Board’s review of computer use, and the Committee has also been supplied with figures for the expenditure on computer equipment and its installation. These papers are attached as an appendix to this report. The Committee considers that the Government ought to report regularly to Parliament on the activities of the Inter-Departmental Committee and the Public Service Board in relation to computers, and the report should include figures showing total Commonwealth expenditure on computers. (v) Department o f Home Affairs—Australia Council (Division 348) $25 951 000
During the hearings of the Committee questions were asked on the expendi ture of bodies, particularly the Australian Ballet and the Australian Opera, which receive large grants from the Australia Council. While the Committee appreciates that these bodies are private organisations and are accountable to the Council for their expenditure of public funds, the Committee considers that more detailed information should be provided on the expenditure of those bodies which receive large sums. The explanatory notes provided by the Australia Council provide only figures for a few broad sub-divisions of expenditure. (vi) Department of Home Affairs—Australian National Gallery (Division 356)
$4 920 700 The Committee considers that the explanatory notes provided by the Aus tralian National Gallery were wholly unsatisfactory, consisting as they did of less than 2 Vi pages giving virtually no information on the categories of expen diture to which the Gallery proposes to devote the sum allocated to it. The Committee appreciates that for commercial reasons the Gallery does not wish to give any information on works of art which it proposes to purchase. The Gallery ought to provide, however, a breakdown of its proposed expen diture, at least showing the categories listed in the ‘Estimates of Receipts and Summary of Estimated Expenditure’ ( Budget Paper No. 4), and giving some explanation of each of those categories. The explanatory notes provided by the Gallery compared most unfavourably with those provided by the National Library of Australia, which performs functions somewhat similar to the Gallery, though without the requirement for some commercial secrecy. 5. The Committee records its appreciation of the assistance of the Minister for Science and officers of the departments concerned.
C. R. MAUNSELL
26 October 1978 Chairman
70
APPENDIX
Some Recent Actions taken by the Public Service Board Related to Economic Usage of Computers within the Service
In conjunction with the Inter-departmental Committee on ADP, the Public Ser vice Board’s Office continues to monitor computer use within the Service.
As noted by Senate Estimates Committee E, an interim report was prepared for the IDC by a Sub-Committee on the rationalisation of computer use. This interim re port has as its main thrust the need to obtain regular advice from departments of their forward planning in the ADP field.
The Board’s Office, this year*, will be requesting from departments information on their plans for acquisition and use of computer equipment, staff utilisation and de tails of proposed ADP systems. The collation and aggregation of these plans will form a basis for an objective examination of the totality of future resource requirements
with a view to optimising resource usage throughout the Service.
In the interim, the Board has taken a number of steps, with the co-operation of de partments, aimed at putting to best use the resources currently available within the Service, and to rationalise, to the extent possible on the information available, the ad ditional resources proposed. Some examples are:
(i) utilisation of the initial spare capacity on the Board’s MANDATA equip ment by the Departments of Capital Territory and Immigration and Ethnic Affairs has been arranged. While some additional peripheral equipment has been hired to meet this need, overall savings of Public funds are expected to
be of the order of $ 1.3 million;
(ii) the Bureau of Census and Statistics is presently considering the replacement of its existing computing equipment. At the suggestion of the Board, the Bu reau and the Department of Overseas Trade have joined together in the re equipment exercise; this will enable rationalisation of equipment and staff
and result in significant economies;
(iii) the potential for economies in the utilisation of resources employed in the Health-Welfare area, incorporating the Departments of Health, Social Secur ity, Veterans’ Affairs and the Health Insurance Commission is being studied by those organisations and the Board;
(iv) the Board is presently involved in a joint exercise with the Departments of Foreign Affairs, Immigration and Ethnic Affairs, and Business and Consumer Affairs, to rationalise the collection and processing of data in respect of the movement of people in and out of Australia.
Attention has for some time been directed to achieving a unified method of calcu lation and presentation of cost-effectiveness statements relating to ADP proposals. A final draft document has been forwarded to departments for comment, and responses are due to be evaluated at the end of November 1977. Following editing of the final
draft the document will be published as a required standard to be used by all depart ments. Copies of the final draft of this document were made available to the Joint Par liamentary Committee of Public Accounts at its recent hearings into the use of Auto matic Data Processing in the Australian Public Sector.
* 1977-78.
71
The Board has also directed senior effort to a programme of Post Implementation Reviews of departmental computer systems. These reviews are designed to explore the department’s performance against its stated objectives, and to report to the de partment on areas where improvements in efficiency, effectiveness, and economy may
be achieved. The first of these reviews was undertaken in the Bureau of Meteorology, and implementation of agreed actions arising therefrom is well in hand. The second, which is scheduled to commence in December 1977, will review the use of computing techniques in the Department of Capital Territory.
72
ATTACHMENT
EXPENDITURE ON EQUIPMENT AND ITS INSTALUATION BY FINANCIAU YEAR
Cost
Year
(to nearest $10 000 )
1962- 63 1963- 64 1964- 65 1965- 66
1966- 67 1967- 68 1968- 69 1969- 70
1970- 71 1971- 72 1972- 73 1973- 74 1974- 75 1975- 76 1976- 77
1977- 78
$
1 790 000 40 000 4 140 000 3 270 000
3 070 000 7 520 000 4 610 000 4 660 000 9 780 000
6 200 000 6 150 000 29 470 000 10 030 000 14 160 000 24 990 000 18 890 000
Total 148 770 000
The following aspects have been taken into consideration in deriving the above figures: (i) The figures include only expenditure
on computing equipment which comes under the purview of the Inter-departmental Committee on ADP (ii) Installation costs are included in the
overall figure and represent charges by manufacturers/suppliers for in stallation, services, testing and the like.
73
Estimates Committee D Minutes of Proceedings
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 5
WEDNESDAY, 27 SEPTEMBER 1978
1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met at 1.45 p.m. in Senate Com mittee Room No. 6. The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair.
2. MEMBERSHIP OF COMMITTEE: Attention was drawn to the resolution of the Senate of 20 September 1978 discharging Senators Kilgariff and Thomas from the Committee and appointing Senators Archer and Rocher.
3. ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE: The Committee discussed the estimates of expenditure referred to the Committee by the Senate. The Chairman drew attention to a suggested program for dealing with the estimates. It was agreed, after discussion,
that so far as possible the following tentative program be followed for the hearings: Thursday, 12 October (12 noon to 10 p.m.) Monday, 16 October
(10 a.m. to 10 p.m.)
Tuesday, 17 October (4 p.m. to 10 p.m.) Friday, 20 October (10 a.m. to 5 p.m.)
Science (interstate sections first) Primary Industry Construction (officers from interstate) Science (if any divisions remain) Primary Industry (if any divisions remain) Capital Territory (start if time)
Home Affairs (interstate divisions first) Capital Territory Home Affairs (if any divisions remain) Capital Territory (if any divisions remain) Northern Territory (assuming officers not brought from
Darwin)
(to be revised according to progress)
It was further agreed that the Committee give further consideration to whether a request should be made for officers from the Department of the Northern Territory from Darwin to be present at the hearings of the Committee. The Chairman stated that a research officer from the Committee Secretariat had
again been allocated to the Committee to undertake any research required and that should members require any research on the estimates or wish to give any depart ments advance notice of areas to be questioned, they should notify the Secretary.
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 2.10 p.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: All members of the Committee.
C. R. MAUNSELL Chairman
77
THE SENATE
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 6
THURSDAY, 12 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met at 4 p.m. in public session in the Senate Chamber. The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair.
2. DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers:
Department of Science: Mr P. B. Free, Senior Assistant Secretary, Central Services Division Mr K. R. S. Fuller, Assistant Secretary, Policy Studies and International Activi ties Branch Mr R. A. Leslie, Senior Assistant Secretary, Space Projects Branch Mr L. E. Cook, Principal Executive Officer, Space Projects Branch Mr C. A. Webster, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr M. Parker, Acting Principal Chemist, Analytical Services Mr E. Fryk, Acting Assistant Director, Analytical Services Mr R. M. Lightfoot, Acting Engineer, Antarctic Division Mr A. Carroll, Acting Administrative Officer, Antarctic Division Dr J. W. Zillman, Director, Bureau of Meteorology Mr R. B. Crowder, Assistant Director (Management), Bureau of Meteorology Mr D. O ’Shea, Finance Officer, Bureau of Meteorology Mr W. D. Lockwood, Administrative Officer, National Standards Commission Mr D. Cunliffe, Executive Officer, Anglo-Australian Telescope Board Dr P. Murdin, Senior Research Scientist, Anglo-Australian Telescope Board Dr J. S. Bunt, Director, Australian Institute of Marine Science Mr R. S. Hooker, Director, Finance and Supply, Central Office Mr M. R. Britton, Finance Officer, Estimates, Central Office Mr P. P. Bryant, Estimates Officer, Central Office Mrs L. Atkinson, Executive Officer, Central Office MrS. Lattimore, Secretary ( Research), CSIRO Mr P. F. Butler, Senior Assistant Secretary (Research), CSIRO Mr I. C. Bogg, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary (Finance and Properties),
CSIRO Dr J. B. Allen, Assistant Secretary (Research), CSIRO Dr J. R. Yates, Assistant Secretary (Research), CSIRO Mr K. J. Thrift, Assistant Secretary (Personnel), CSIRO Mr H. R. Webb, Assistant Secretary (Research), CSIRO Mr I. L. Farrar, Acting Chief Finance Officer (Budget), CSIRO Mr R. J. Garrett, Acting Senior Finance Officer (Budget), CSIRO Mr R. Aujard, Science Branch, CSIRO Mr G. Sibley, Science Branch, CSIRO Mr J. Burdett, Science Branch, CSIRO
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D
78
Department o f Finance: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A
Division 540 — Administrative $8 917 000 Division 542 — Analytical Services $3 686 000 Division 543 — Antarctic Division $7 974 000 Division 544 — Bureau of Meteorology $37 644 000
Division 545 — Ionospheric Prediction Service $882 000 Division 546 — Metric Conversion Board $300 000 Division 547 — National Standards Commission $511 000 Division 550 — Anglo-Australian Telescope Board $1 040 000
Division 552 — Australian Institute of Marine Science $2 069 000 Document B Division 927 — Capital Works and Services Sub-division 1 — Buildings and Works $55 000
Sub-division 2 — Plant and Equipment $4 167 000 Sub-division 4 — Institute of Marine Science $825 000 Division 928 — Payments to or for the States $ 11 893 000 Division 929 — Other Services $100 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.
3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10 p.m.
4. ATTENDANCE: All members of the Committee and Senator Teague.
C. R. MAUNSELL Chairman
79
THE SENATE
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 7 MONDAY, 16 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met at 10 a.m. in public session in Senate Committee Room No. 1. Senator Archer, having been appointed Deputy- Chairman in accordance with Standing Order 36AB, took the Chair.
2. DEPARTMENT OF CONSTRUCTION:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department o f Construction: Mr K. J. Rodda, Deputy Secretary
Mr J. H. Gunn, Assistant Secretary (Works) Mr W. D. Hamilton, Assistant Secretary (Finance) Department o f Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered:
Document A Division 220 — Administrative $96 709 000 Division 224 — Repairs and Maintenance $59 270 000 Division 245 — Buildings and Works $67 400 000 Division 246 — Repairs and Maintenance $52 000 000 Document B
Division 831 — Capital Works and Services $94 480 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.
3. DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation: MrS. Lattimore. Secretary ( Research)
Mr I. C. Bogg, Acting Senior Assistant Secretary (Finance and Properties) Mr P. F. Butler, Senior Assistant Secretary ( Research) Mr A. W. Charles. Assistant Secretary ( Research) Mr K. A vent. Assistant Secretary ( Research) Mr H. R. Webb, Assistant Secretary ( Research) Dr J. B. Allen. Assistant Secretary ( Research) Dr J. R. Yates. Assistant Secretary ( Research) Mr J. V. Dunn, Assistant Secretary ( Works and Buildings) Mr K. J. Thrift. Assistant Secretary ( Personnel) Mr R. J. Garrett, Acting Senior Finance Officer (Budget) Department of Finance:
Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer. Accounting Operations Branch
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D
80
The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 554 - CSIRO $141 244 000 Document B
Division 927 — Capital Works and Services Sub-division 3 - CSIRO $3 100 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.
4. DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY: Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department o f Primary Industry:
Dr A. H. Hayman, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 1 (Meat and Meat Prod ucts) Division Mr A. H. Rowe, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 1 (Meat and Meat Products) Division
Mr R. Coutts, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 1 (Meat and Meat Prod ucts) Division Mr C. R. Gorter, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 2 (Dairy Products) Division
Mr J. C. Sainsbury, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 2 (Dairy Products) Division Mr A. R. Kyburz, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 4 (Sugar and Horticultural Crops) Division Mr E. L. Jenkins, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 4 (Sugar and Horticultural
Crops) Division Mr T. B. Curtin, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries) Division MrP. C. Pownall, Journalist, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries) Division Mr L. Z. Jelinek, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 6 (Wool) Division
Mr G. C. Willcocks, Executive Officer, Industry No. 6 (Wool) Division Mr W. C. K. Hammer, Assistant Secretary, Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr P. B. Allan, Assistant Secretary, Agriculture and Food Services Division
Mr R. J. Merton, Principal Executive Officer, Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr G. M. Young, Principal Executive Officer, Agriculture and Food Services Division
Mr D. A. Randall, Principal Executive Officer, Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr G. E. Pettit, Assistant Secretary, Development Division Mr J. A. Hart, Senior Assistant Director, Bureau of Animal Health
Mr J. G. Digby, Assistant Director, Bureau of Animal Health Mr A. C. Kempe, Principal Executive Officer, Bureau of Animal Health Mr G. L. Miller, Director, Bureau of Agricultural Economics Mr N. Lamb, Principal Executive Officer, Bureau of Agricultural Economics
Mr A. G. Hanson, Assistant Secretary, Forestry Branch Mr D. P. Cleary, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch Mr A. A. Cooley, Assistant Director of Finance
81
Department o f Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A
Division 490 — Administrative $63 324 000 Division 497 — Bureau of Agricultural Economics $5 291 000 The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair at 8 p.m. Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded, with the exceptions of items 12, 13 and 14 of sub-division 3 of Division 490.
5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.10 p.m.
6. ATTENDANCE: Present: All members of the Committee and Senator Martin.
C. R. MAUNSELL Chairman
82
THE SENATE
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 8
TUESDAY, 17 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met at 4.30 p.m. in public session in Senate Committee Room No. 1. The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair.
2. DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department o f Home Affairs: Mr T. F. Paterson, First Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination and Management
Division Mr F. J. L. Brice, Assistant Secretary, Cultural Affairs Branch Mr J. Davies, Director, Film and Library Section, Cultural Affairs Branch Mr P. Edgar, Director, Arts Section, Cultural Affairs Branch
Mr L. Neilson, Acting Director, Collections and Historical Section, Cultural Affairs Branch Mr P. D. Priestly, Director, Budget and Estimates Section, Finance and Office Services Branch, Department of Administrative Services (on secondment) Mr T. F. Fowler, Acting Assistant Director, Finance and Services Branch
Ms G. Pincus, Senior Advisor, Office of Women’s Affairs Mr K. P. Cooper, Assistant Secretary, Indian Ocean Territories Branch Mr H. Plant, Assistant Secretary, Northern Territory Branch Mr K. S. Tilbrook, Director, Other Territories Branch
Professor R. G. Neale, Director-General, Australian Archives Mr W. R. O ’Neill, Executive Officer, Australian Archives Mr A. J. Sweeting, Acting Director, Australian War Memorial Mr M. D. G. Coley, Assistant Director, Australian War Memorial
Mr J. Cameron, General Manager, Australia Council Mr R. Taylor, Deputy Executive Officer (Finance), Australia Council Mr B. Claremont, Director, Administration, Australia Council Miss G. M. Carnegie, Head, Administration and Services, Australian Film and
Television School Mr M. Tan, Executive Officer, Finance. Australian Film and Television School Mr K. F. Watts, Chairman, Australian Film Commission MrT. Read, Head of Production, Australian Film Commission
Mr B. J. Gittings, Secretary, Australian Film Commission Mr A. Ellis, Assistant Director-General, National Library of Australia Mr B. Yates, Assistant Director-General, National Library of Australia MrG. E. Clark, Director, Management Services, National Library of Australia
Mr J. Mollison, Director, Australian National Gallery Mr B. E. W. Kelson, Secretary/Manager, Australian National Gallery Department of Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D
83
The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 348— Australia Council $25 951 000 Division 350 — Australian Film and Television School $3 505 800
Division 352— Australian Film Commission $9 707 000 Division 354 — National Library of Australia $14 208 000 Division 356 — Australian National Gallery $4 920 700 Document B
Division 860 — Capital Works and Services Sub-division 4 — Australian Film and Television School $287 000 Sub-division 5 — Film Industry Development $210 000 Sub-division 6 — Film Making $ 185 000 Sub-division 7 — Australian National Gallery $49 000 Consideration of the particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.
3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10 p.m.
4. ATTENDANCE: All members of the Committee and Senator Ryan.
C. R. MAUNSELL Chairman
84
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 9
FRIDAY, 20 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met at 10 a.m. in public session in Senate Committee Room No. 1. The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair.
2. DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department o f Home Affairs: Mr R. F. Paterson, First Assistant Secretary, Co-ordination and Management
Division Mr L. Neilson, Acting Director, Collection and Historical Section, Cultural Affairs Branch Mr P. D. Priestly, Director, Budget and Estimates Section, Department of Ad
ministrative Services (on loan) MrT. F. Fowler, Acting Assistant Director, Finance and Services Branch Mr A. W. McCasker, First Assistant Secretary, Territories Division Mr K. P. Cooper, Assistant Secretary, Indian Ocean Territories Branch Mr H. Plant, Assistant Secretary, Northern Territory Branch Mr L. Huston, Executive Assistant, Other Territories Branch Mr N. J. Flanagan, Director, Australian War Memorial
Mr M. D. G. Coley, Assistant Director, Australian War Memorial Dr Bos, Conservator, Australian War Memorial Department o f Finance: Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered:
Document A Division 340 — Administrative $3 378 200 Division 342 — Australian Archives $4 484 700 Division 344 — Australian War Memorial $ 1 494 300
Division 345 — Christmas Island $2 760 100 Division 346 — Cocos (Keeling) Islands $640 200 Division 347 — Norfolk Island $376 000 Document B
Division 860 — Capital Works and Services Sub-division 1 — Plant and Equipment $179 000 Sub-division 2 — Christmas Island $250 000 Sub-division 3 — Cocos (Keeling) Islands $45 000
Sub-division 8 — Norfolk Island $4 000 Division 862 — Other Services $52 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded. Document A
Division 455 — Administrative $1 247 000
85
Document B Division 897 — Capital Works and Services $300 000 Division 900 — Northern Territory $280 000 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.
3. DEPARTMENT OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers: Department of Primary Industry: Dr A. H. Hayman, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 1 (Meat and Meat Prod
ucts) Division Mr A. H. Rowe, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 1 (Meat and Meat Products) Division Mr R. Coutts, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 1 (Meat and Meat Prod
ucts) Division Mr C. R. Gorter, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 2 (Dairy Products) Division Mr J. C. Sainsbury, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 2 (Dairy Products)
Division Mr A. R. Kyburz, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 4 (Sugar and Horticultural Crops) Division Mr E. L. Jenkins, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 4 (Sugar and Horticultural
Crops) Division MrT. B. Curtin, Assistant Secretary, Industry No. 5 (Fisheries) Division Mr P. C. Pownall, Journalist. Industry No. 5 (Fisheries) Division Mr L. Z. Jelinek, Principal Executive Officer, Industry No. 6 (Wool) Division Mr G. C. Willcocks, Executive Officer, Industry No. 6 ( Wool) Division Mr W. C. K. Hammer, Assistant Secretary, Agriculture and Food Services
Division Mr P. B. Allan, Assistant Secretary, Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr R. J. Merton. Principal Executive Officer. Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr G. M. Young. Principal Executive Officer. Agriculture and Food Services
Division Mr D. A. Randall, Principal Executive Officer. Agriculture and Food Services Division Mr G. E. Pettit, Assistant Secretary, Development Division Mr J. A. Hart. Senior Assistant Director. Bureau of Animal Health Mr J. G. Digby, Assistant Director, Bureau of Animal Health Mr A. C. Kempe. Principal Executive Officer. Bureau of Animal Health Mr G. L. Miller, Director. Bureau of Agricultural Economics Mr N. Lamb. Principal Executive Officer. Bureau of Agricultural Economics MrA.G. Hanson. Assistant Secretary. Forestry Branch Mr D. P. Cleary. Assistant Secretary. Management Services Branch Mr A. A. Cooley. Assistant Director of Finance Department of Finance:
Mr C. J. Dolman. Senior Finance Officer. Accounting and Supply Division
86
The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 490 — Administrative $63 324 000 Division 494 — Bureau of Animal Health $35 456 000
Division 495 — Export Inspection Services $5 185 000 Document B Division 912 — Capital Works and Services $5000 Division 913 — Payments to or for the States $85 089 000
Division 914 — Other Services $485 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.
4. DEPARTMENT OF THE CAPITAL TERRITORY:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. J. Webster, Minister for Science, accompanied by the following departmental officers:
Department of the Capital Territory: Mr R. C. Burroughs, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Supply Mr C. S. Hamilton, Director, Programs and Budgets Mr J. A. Turner, Assistant Secretary, ADP Projects
Mr D. A. Brown, Acting Assistant Secretary, Establishments Mr J. H. Marshall, First Assistant Secretary, Transport and Housing Mr D. Lander, Assistant Secretary, Transport Operations Mr L. K. Webcke, Registrar, Motor Vehicle Registry
Mr E. P. O ’Brien, Commissioner for Housing Mr L. L. Gillespie, City Manager Mr J. M. Hemer, Assistant Secretary, Welfare Mr R. J. Donnellan, Acting Assistant Secretary, Recreation and Tourism
Mr R. J. Corrigan, First Assistant Secretary, Lands Dr B. H. Pratt, Director, Conservation and Agriculture Mr J. C. Johnson, Deputy Commissioner, ACT Police Mr K. W. Sandoe, Executive Officer, ACT Police
Mr J. H. Lowe, Acting Assistant Secretary, Urban Affairs Mr K. J. Curtis, Secretary and Manager, National Capital Development Commission Mr B. M. Browning, Assistant Secretary, Program Management Department o f Finance:
Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The following particulars of proposed expenditure were called upon and considered: Document A Division 210 — Administrative $59 918 000
Division 212 — ACT Legislative Assembly $319 000 Division213 - ACTPolice$12078000 Division 214 — National Capital Development Commission $7 988 000 Document B
Division 829 — Capital Works and Services $171 823 000 Consideration of these particulars of proposed expenditure was concluded.
87
5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m.
6. ATTENDANCE: All members of the Committee except Senator Archer (apol ogy received). Senator Martin also attended.
C. R. MAUNSELL Chairman
88
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE D
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 10
THURSDAY, 26 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING OF COMMITTEE: The Committee met at 1.45 p.m. in Senate Committee Room No. 5. The Chairman (Senator Maunsell) took the Chair.
2. REPORT TO THE SENATE: The Chairman drew attention to a draft report of the Committee to the Senate, which had been prepared in accordance with sugges tions made by members of the Committee and other Senators. He stated that the draft report had been circulated to all members of the Committee on Tuesday last, that
members not able to be present at this meeting had been invited to submit any sug gested amendments to the meeting, and that no suggested amendments had been so submitted. The Committee discussed the draft report.
It was agreed that the draft report be adopted as the Report of the Committee and be presented to the Senate.
3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 2 p.m.
4. ATTENDANCE: All members of the Committee except Senators Primmer, Robertson and Rocher (apologies received).
C. R. MAUNSELL Chairman
89
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E REPORT TO THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E
REPORT TO THE SENATE
Estimates Committee E has the honour to report to the Senate. 1. On 12 September 1978, the Senate referred to the Committee the Estimates for the year 1978-79 relating to the following Departments: Administrative Services
Industry and Commerce Transport Productivity Environment, Housing and Community Development 2. The Committee has considered these Estimates and has received explanations of them from the Minister for Administrative Services and from officers of the Depart
ments concerned. A copy of the Hansard report of the evidence is tabled for the infor mation of the Senate in connection with the Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1978-79 and the Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1978-79. 3. During and subsequent to the hearing of evidence, in accordance with under takings given, additional written information was made available to the Committee in
reply to certain questions asked during the proceedings. Copies of these replies will be included in a special Hansard volume. 4. The Committee wishes to draw the attention of the Senate to the following: (a) Since the last meetings of Estimates Committee E, Departments have
rationalised and standardised the format of the Explanations of Particulars of Proposed Expenditure. The Committee has found this to be most helpful. (b) The Committee has also noted the practice of including Explanations of Rev enue items and expenditure under Special Appropriations which fall within
the responsibility of Departments. The Committee has found this to be of as sistance in that these explanations help to give a total picture of each Depart ment’s financial situation. 5. The Committee records its appreciation of the evidence given by the Minister for Administrative Services, together with the officers of various Departments whose Estimates the Committee considered.
M. TOWNLEY Chairman
93
Estimates Committee E Minutes of Proceedings
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 6
THURSDAY, 28 SEPTEMBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 1.00 p.m.
2. MEMBERSHIP OF COMMITTEE: The entry in the Journals of the Senate of 20 September 1978 recording the appointment of the following members of Esti mates Committee E was reported: Senators Bishop, Elstob, Jessop, MacGibbon, McIntosh and Townley.
3. REFERENCE TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: The resolution of the Senate of 12 September 1978 relating to referral to Estimates Committee E of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the year ending 30 June 1979 was reported.
4. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: On the motion of Senator Jessop, Senator Townley was elected Chairman. Senator Jessop, upon request o f Senator Townley, absent, thereupon took the Chair.
5. PROCEDURE OF EXAMINING ESTIMATES: Discussion ensued upon the proposed examination of Departmental Estimates and the role of the Research Officer.
6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 1.16 p.m.
7. ATTENDANCE: Senators Bishop, Jessop, MacGibbon and McIntosh (4).
D. S. JESSOP Acting Chairman
97
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 7
TUESDAY, 12 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.03 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Townley) took the Chair.
2. PROCEDURE OF THE COMMITTEE: The Chairman made a statement relat ing to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Par ticulars of Proposed Expenditure and stated that, pursuant to the Order of the Senate of 12 September 1978, the Committee would consider the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending 30 June 1979 relating to the following departmental Estimates:
Division
Document* * Page No. Department Amount
$
A 13-23 130-160 Administrative Services.......................... 278 738 000
A 47 250 Rent (D e fe n c e ) 40 500 000
A 47 252 Acquisition of Sites and Buildings
(.D efe n ce) ...................................... 7 812 000
A 47 253 Furniture and Fittings (D efence) . . . 5 200 000
B 6-7 817-819 Administrative Services.......................... 37 948 000
A 88-89 380-382 Industry and Commerce ...................... 19 554 000
B 18 878 Industry and Commerce ...................... 1 090 000
A 125-127 655-662 Transport ........................................... 311 581 000
B 25-26 957-959 Transport ........................................... 57 487 000
A 108-110 522-528 Productivity ....................................... 125 506 000
B 23 921-922 Productivity ....................................... 7 075 000
A 60-63 296-303 Environment, Housing and Community Development ............................. 41724 000
A 47 248 Housing for Servicemen— Advances to
States [D efence) ......................... 11600 000
B 12-13 841-843 Environment, Housing and Community Development .................................. 345 282 000
* Document A—‘Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979*. * Document B— '‘Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979’.
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES:
A p p e a r in g : Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney. Minister for Administrative Ser vices accompanied by the following officers: D e p a r tm e n t o f A d m in is tr a tiv e S e r v ic e s:
Mr A. R. Palmer, Deputy Secretary Mr L. R. Dudley, Acting Assistant Secretary, Grants and Authorities Branch
98
Mr S. Wenger, Principal Project Officer, Grants and Authorities Branch Mr Î. E. Keen, Acting Assistant Secretary, Honours Secretariat Ministerial and Management Services Division: Mr D. R. White, Acting First Assistant Secretary
Mr B. E. Hinchcliffe, Assistant Secretary, Personnel and Establishments Branch Mr E. L. Knaus, Assistant Secretary, ADP and Executive Services Branch Miss Î. P. Lance, Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary and Ministerial Services Branch
Mr T. T. McElroy, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Office Services Branch Mr P. D. Priestly, Director, Budget and Estimates Section, Finance and Office Services Branch Property and Survey Division:
Mr J. H. MacDonnell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Property Branch Mr R. E. McLean, Principal Executive Officer, Property Mr A. A. Hillier, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Operations Branch Mr J. W. Sleep, Acting Surveyor-General Transport and Storage Division:
Mr R. W. B. Davies, First Assistant Secretary Mr J. J. Mason, Director, Finance and Administration Information Services Division: Mr P. A. Nott, First Assistant Secretary
Mr J. M. Malone, Acting Assistant Secretary, Australian Information Services Branch Purchasing Division: Mr L. Nielsen, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch
Mr P. G. Woodham, Principal Executive Officer, Operations Branch Remuneration Tribunal: Mr P. J. Galvin, Secretary Australian Electoral Office:
Mr D. P. Reynolds, Director (Management Services) Mr E. K. Klatt, Executive Officer (Administration) Mr E. D. Walton, Acting Assistant Secretary (Operations) Mr B. R. Nugent, Director (Information and Electoral Education Section)
Mr R. L. Robinson, Acting Director (Enrolment Systems Section) Mr B. L. Powell, Senior Inspector, Organisation and Methods Commonwealth Police: Mr A. J. Watt, Assistant Commissioner, Operations
Mr R. Farmer, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Crime Intelligence Mr Î. P. Webber, Director, Administration Grants Commission: Mr J. I. Doherty, Director, General Revenue and Business Undertakings
Branch
D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer The Minister made a statement relating to the Proposed Expenditure for the Depart ment of Administrative Services.
99
Divisions 130-160—Department of Administrative Services (Document A) Division 250 — Rent (Defence) (Document A) Division 252 — Acquisition ofSites and Buildings {Defence) (Document A) Division 253 — Furniture and Fittings (Defence) (Document A) Divisions 817-819 — Department of Administrative Services (Document B) And the Committee considering Division 140—Parliamentary and Ministerial Staff
and Services—$18 400 200
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.15 p.m. until Monday, 16 October 1978 at 10.00 a.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Bishop, Elstob, Jessop, MacGibbon, McIntosh and Townley (6). Senators Colston, Hamer, McLaren and Messner also attended.
The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
M. TOWNLEY Chairman
100
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 8
MONDAY, 16 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.00 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Townley) took the Chair.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Administrative Ser vices, accompanied by the following officers:
Department of Administrative Services: Mr A. R. Palmer, Deputy Secretary Mr S. A. Wenger, Principal Executive Officer, Grants and Authorities Branch Ministerial and Management Services Division:
Mr D. R. White, Acting First Assistant Secretary Mr B. E. Hinchcliffe, Assistant Secretary, Personnel and Establishments Branch Mr E. L. Knaus, Assistant Secretary, ADP and Executive Services Branch Miss Î. P. Lance, Assistant Secretary, Parliamentary and Ministerial Services
Branch Mr T. T. McElroy, Acting Assistant Secretary, Finance and Office Services Branch Mr P. D. Priestly, Director, Budget and Estimates Section, Finance and Office
Services Branch Property and Survey Division: Mr J. H. MacDonnell, Acting Assistant Secretary, Property Branch Mr R. E. McLean, Principal Executive Officer, Property Branch
Mr A. A. Hillier, Assistant Secretary, Overseas Operations Branch Mr J. W. Sleep, Acting Surveyor-General Transport and Storage Division: Mr R. W. B. Davies, First Assistant Secretary
Mr J. J. Mason, Director, Finance and Administration Information Services Division: Mr P. A. Nott, First Assistant Secretary Mr J. M. Malone, Acting Assistant Secretary, Australian Information Services
Branch
Purchasing Division: Mr L. Nielsen, Assistant Secretary, Operations Branch Mr P. G. Woodham, Principal Executive Officer, Operations Branch Commonwealth Police:
Mr A. J. Watt, Assistant Commissioner, Operations Mr R. Farmer, Acting Assistant Commissioner, Crime Intelligence Mr Î. P. Webber, Director, Administration
101
Grants Commission: Mr J. I. Doherty, Director, General Revenue and Business Undertakings Branch D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 140-160 — Department of Administrative Services (Document A) Division 250 — Rent (D e fe n c e ) (Document A)
Division 252 — Acquisition of Sites and Buildings { D e fe n c e ) (Document A) Division 253 — Furniture and Fittings ( D e fe n c e ) (Document A) Divisions 817-819 — Department of Administrative Services (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure for the De partment of Administrative Services.
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE:
A p p e a r in g : Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Administrative Ser vices, accompanied by the following officers: D e p a r tm e n t o f I n d u s tr y a n d C o m m e r c e :
Mr K. G. Hocking, Assistant Secretary, Management Services and Secretariat Branch Mr R. J. Kinsella, Director, Finance and Management Services Section Mr G. Murphy, Assistant Secretary, Policy Development Division Mr V. Sticka, Assistant Secretary, Tertiary Industry Division Mr W. J. Shephard, Executive Officer, Shipbuilding Division and Metal Manu
facturers and Electrical Branch Mr J. Miller, Assistant General Manager, Australian Commission Mr P. Richardson, Director, Australian Tourist Commission MrS. Wenger, Principal Project Officer, Grants and Authorities Branch D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 380-382 — Department of Industry and Commerce (Document A) Division 878 — Department of Industry and Commerce (Document B) The Minister made a statement relating to the Proposed Expenditure for the Depart
ment of Industry and Commerce. The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure for the De partment of Industry and Commerce.
4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF TRANSPORT:
A p p e a r in g : Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Administrative Ser vices, accompanied by the following officers: D e p a r tm e n t o f T ra n sp o rt:
Mr G. A. Birch, First Assistant Secretary (Finance and Commercial) Mr J. Schofield, First Assistant Secretary (Airways Operations) MrM. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary (Land Transport Policy) Mr G. O'Halloran, Director (Budget) Mr D. W. O’Brien, Assistant Secretary (Economic Licensing and Policy)
102
Mr T. Williams, Assistant Secretary (Rail Transport) Mr D. Turner, Assistant Secretary (Coastal and Overseas Bulk) Mr G. K Reid, Bureau of Transport Economics MrK. Teakley, Assistant Secretary (International Relations‘A’) Mr P. Holmes, Acting Assistant Secretary (Emergency and Special Services) Mr M. Gawan-Taylor, First Assistant Secretary (Strategic Planning and Re
source Allocation) Mr J. Black, Budget Officer, Australian National Railways
D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer
The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 655-662 — Department ofTransport( Document A) Divisions 957-959 — Department of Transport (Document B)
The Minister made a statement relating to the Proposed Expenditure for the Depart ment of Transport.
The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure for the De partment of Transport.
5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF PRODUCTIVITY:
A p p e a r in g : Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Administrative Ser vices, accompanied by the following officers:
D e p a r tm e n t o f P r o d u c tiv ity : Mr H. J. Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, Finance and Management Services Division Mr K. McKnown, Assistant Secretary, Finance Branch, Finance and Manage
ment Services Division Mr W. M. Drysdale, Director, Programs and Estimates, Finance and Manage ment Services Division Dr Î. K. McIntosh, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Policy and Research
Division Mr P. Schultz, Assistant Secretary, Technology Development Branch, Pro ductivity Development Division Mr A. G. Johnson, Assistant Secretary, Programs and Management Develop
ment Branch, Productivity Development Division Mr V. R. Coleman, Assistant Controller (Aircraft), Aircraft, Guided Weapons and Electronics Supply Division Mr J. C. Comerford, Principal Executive Officer, Munitions Supply Division
Mr D. Gunzburg, Assistant Secretary, Human Relations Branch, Working Environment Division Mr C. H. Frieman, Assistant Secretary (Industrial Property), Patents Trade Marks and Designs Office D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer
103
Divisions 522-528 — Department of Productivity (Document A) Divisions 921-922 — Department of Productivity (Document B) The Minister made a statement relating to the Proposed Expenditure for the Depart ment of Productivity. The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure for the De partment of Productivity.
6. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF EN V IRO N M EN T, H OUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT:
A p p e a r in g : Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Administrative Ser vices, accompanied by the following officers: D e p a r tm e n t o f E n v ir o n m e n t, H o u s in g a n d C o m m u n ity D e v e lo p m e n t: Mr P. G. Gifford, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management Division
Mr R. J. Egan, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Housing Division Mr R. Mills, Assistant Secretary, Environment Programs Branch Mr G. R. Dempster, Assistant Secretary, Sport and Recreation Branch Dr R. W. Boden, Assistant Secretary, Australian National Parks and Wildlife
Service Mr Î. E. Bourke, Director, Australian Heritage Commission Mr V. J. Kane, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Office of the Supervising Scientist D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 296-303 — Department of Environment, Housing and Community De velopment (Document A)
Division 248 — Housing for Servicemen— Advances to States (D e fe n c e ) (Docu ment A) Division 841-843 — Department of Environment, Housing and Community De velopment (Document B) And the Committee considering Division 296— Administrative-
Sub-division 3— Other Services— $2 778 000.
7. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.02 p.m. until Tuesday, 17 October 1978 at 4.00 p.m., subject to the suspension of the sitting of the Senate.
8. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Elstob, Jessop, MacGibbon and Townley (4). Senators McLaren and Mulvihill also attended.
The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
M. TOWNLEY C h a irm a n
104
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 9
TUESDAY, 17 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.37 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Townley) took the Chair.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF EN V IR O N M EN T, H O U SIN G AND COM M UNITY DEVELOPMENT:
A p p e a r in g : Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Administrative Ser vices, accompanied by the following officers: D e p a r tm e n t o f E n v ir o n m e n t, H o u s in g a n d C o m m u n ity D e v e lo p m e n t:
Mr P. G. Gifford, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Management Division Mr R. J. Egan, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Housing Division Mr R. Mills, Assistant Secretary, Environment Programs Branch Mr G. R. Dempster, Assistant Secretary, Sport and Recreation Branch
Dr R. W. Boden, Assistant Secretary, Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service Mr Î. E. Bourke, Director, Australian Heritage Commission Mr V. J. Kane, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Office of the Supervising
Scientist Mr R. M. Fry, Acting Supervising Scientist Mr T. O. Savimaki, Project Manager, Glebe Project, D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 296 (Sub-Division 3) — 303 Department of Environment, Housing and Community Development (Document A)
Division 248 — Housing for Servicemen— Advances to States (D e fe n c e ) (Docu ment A) Divisions 841-843 — Department of Environment, Housing and Community De velopment (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the Proposed Expenditure for the De partment of Environment, Housing and Community Development.
3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 5.50 p.m. till a date and hour to be fixed.
4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Bishop, Elstob, Jessop, MacGibbon, McIntosh and Townley (6). Senators McLaren and Mulvihill also attended.
M. TOWNLEY C h a ir m a n
105
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE E
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 10
THURSDAY, 26 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.40 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Townley) took the Chair.
2. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered a Draft Report to the Senate. Resolved: That the Report be adopted.
3. MINUTES: The Minutes of the meetings held on 28 September, 12 October, 16 October, 17 October 1978 were read and confirmed.
4. RESEARCH ASSISTANCE: The Committee commended research undertaken by the Secretariat.
5. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 4.53 p.m. till a date and hour to be fixed.
6. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Bishop, Elstob, MacGibbon and Townley (4).
M. TOWNLEY C h a irm a n
106
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F REPORT TO THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F
REPORT TO THE SENATE
Estimates Committee F has the honour to present its Report to the Senate. 1. On 12 September 1978 the Senate referred to the Committee the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the year 1978-79 relating to the following Departments: Department of Defence
Department of Business and Consumer Affairs Department of Finance Postal and Telecommunications Department 2. The Committee has considered the Proposed Expenditure and has received explanations of them from the Ministers and Officers representing the Departments
concerned. A copy of the Minutes of proceedings and Hansard reports of the evidence taken by the Committee are tabled for the information of the Senate in connection with the Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 1978-79 and Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 1978-79.
3. The Committee records its appreciation of the detailed explanations which were provided to Senators prior to the hearings and the assistance of the Ministers and their officers during the examination of proposed expenditure.
4. In the past, Estimates Committees have commented on the quality of the evi dence given by the Australian Broadcasting Commission and suggested areas where this could be improved. The Committee was pleased this year to note the high quality of both the written and oral evidence given by officers of the Australian Broadcasting
Commission and places on record its appreciation of their co-operation.
A. M. THOMAS
7 November 1978 Chairman
109
Estimates Committee F Minutes of Proceedings
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F No. 1
THURSDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 1978
1. PRIVATE MEETING: The Committee met at 9.30 a.m.
2. A PPO IN TM EN T OF, AND REFER EN C E TO ESTIMATES COMMITTEES: (1) The Resolution of the Senate of 12 September 1978 appointing Estimates Committee F in accordance with Standing Order 36AB, was reported.
(2) The Resolution of the Senate of 12 September 1978 that the Committee con sider the proposed expenditure for the year ending 30 June 1979 and report to the Senate on or before Tuesday, 7 November 1978, was reported. (3) The Resolution of the Senate of 12 September 1978 that the Committee deal
with the following Departments: Department of Defence Department of Business and Consumer Affairs Department of Finance
Post and Telecommunications Department was reported.
3. MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE: The entry in the Journals of the Senate of 20 September 1978 recording the membership of Estimates Committee F was reported. The membership is as follows: Senators. J. Collard
Senator A. T. Gietzelt Senators. M. Ryan Senator K. W. Sibraa Senator A. M. Thomas Senator J. 0. W. Watson 4. ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN: On the motion of Senator Collard, Senator
Thomas was elected Chairman.
5. RESEARCH FOR THE COMMITTEE: The Chairman advised that the staff of the Committee had been authorized to under take research for the Committee and that a Research Officer had therefore been seconded to assist the Secretary.
6. OPERATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE: Discussion ensued on the approach which the Committee would take towards questioning, the use which Committee would make of research assistance, and future meetings of the Committee.
7. ADJOURNMENT: The meeting adjourned at 9.55 a.m. till a day and hour to be fixed.
8. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Ryan, Sibraa and Thomas (4).
A.M. THOMAS C h a ir m a n
113
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 2
THURSDAY, 12 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 4.05 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Thomas) took the Chair.
2. STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN: The Chairman made a statement relating to the procedure to be followed by the Committee in its examination of the Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the year ending 30 June 1979 and the Par
ticulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in respect of the year ending 30 June 1979, and stated that, pursuant to the Resolution of the Senate on 12 September 1978, the Committee would consider the following departmental estimates:
Division
Document* Page No. Department Amount
$
A 42-46 230-242 Defence** .......................................... 2 144 673 000
A 31-34 195-202 Business and Consumer Affairs . . . . 103 942 000
B 8 826-827 Business and Consumer Affairs . . . . 1810000
A 64-66 304-308 F in a n c e ............................................... 25 379 000
B 13-14 845-847 F in a n c e ............................................... 25 151 000
A 67 310 Advance to the Minister for Finance . . 125 000 000
B 14 850 Advance to the Minister for Finance . . 100 000 000
A 96-98 480-486 Postal and Telecommunications . . . . 178 180 000 B 21 909-911 Postal and Telecommunications . . . . 12 575 000
* Document A - ‘Particulars of Proposed Expenditure for the Service of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979’. * Document B— ‘Particulars of Certain Proposed Expenditure in Respect of the Year Ending on 30 June 1979’. ** Excluding items under control of the Departments of Construction: Environment, Housing and Com
munity Development; and Administrative Services (Divisions 245 and 246; 248; and 250, 252 and 253).
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF DEFENCE:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable J. L. Carrick, Minister for Education, ac companied by the following officers: Department of Defence: Mr K. B. Breynard, Assistant General-Manager, Defence Communications Sys
tem (Planning and Programming) Brigadier I. R. W. Brumfield, Director-General, Service Conditions Commander I. M. Burnside, Director-General of Recruiting Captain N. Calder, Naval Hydrographer Mr C. D. Campbell, Assistant Secretary, Supply Policy Mr W. F. Caplehorn, Senior Defence Officer, Defence Science Administration Mr Î. T. Murn, representing Mr P. J. Fogarty, Assistant Secretary, Defence
Force, Industrial
114
Brigadier P. C. Gration, Director-General, Operations and Plans— Army Major-General C. Gurner, Surgeon-General, Defence Forces Mr T. W. Healy, Executive Officer, International Policy (ANZUS and UN Section)
Mr D. A. Hort, Director of Finance and General Services Mr Î. T. Hyland, First Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budgets Mr Î. P. Jones, Assistant Secretary, Defence Science Administration Captain J. M. Kelly, Director Naval Operations
Mr A. F. Kent, Assistant Secretary, Project Planning and Evaluation (DIM) Mr J. W. Knight, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning— Army Mr D. M. McAlister, Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy and Requirements Mr F. W. McConaghy, Director of Civil Personnel, Administration
Mr L. A. McGee, Assistant Secretary, Quality Assurance and Engineering Re sources Policy Brigadier N. J. McGuire, Director-General, Movements and Transport Mr I. D. McLeod, Chief Executive Officer, Budgets and Estimates Co
ordination and Review Mr P. F. McNamara, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning— Navy Mr M. J. Madden, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning—Air Force Mr R. D. Martin, Acting Assistant Secretary, Natural Disasters Organisation
Mr M. J. Murray, Chief Executive Officer, Procurement, Progressing and Procedures Mr G. E. Nicholls, Assistant Secretary, Naval Technical Services Mr J. S. O ’Neill, Assistant Secretary, Budgets and Estimates (General and
Co-ordination) Commander R. H. Percy, Director-General, Joint Plans and Operations Mr I. M. Reid, Assistant Secretary, Programs Management (Defence Facilities) Mr W. J. A. Ryan, Director, Program and Research Support
MrG. M. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Industry Development Dr A. Taloni, Assistant Secretary, Project Co-ordination (Computing Services) Air Commodore R. Trebilco, Director-General, Operational Requirements— Air Force
Air Vice-Marshal S. R. White, Chief of Supply Mr R. Whithear, Chief Executive Officer, General Legal Mr D. A. Whitty, Assistant Secretary, International Policy (Papua New Guinea and Defence Co-operation Programs) Mr J. R. Robson, Principal Executive Officer, Special Projects Section, Manage
ment and General Services Division D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr C. J. Dolman, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch Mr A. R. Taylor, Finance Officer, Defence Branch The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
Divisions 230-242 — Department of Defence (Document A) The Committee concluded its consideration of Divisions 230-233 and commenced examination of Division 234.
115
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.05 p.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Ryan, Thomas and Watson. Senators Evans, Mulvihill and Tate also took part in the Committee’s proceedings.
A. M. THOMAS C h a ir m a n
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 3
FRIDAY, 13 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 10.02 a.m. The Chairman (Senator Thomas) took the Chair.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF DEFENCE:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, accompanied by the following officers: Department of Defence: Mr K. B. Breynard, Assistant General Manager, Defence Communications Sys
tem (Planning and Programming) Brigadier I. R. W. Brumfield, Director-General, Service Conditions Commander I. M. Burnside, Director-General of Recruiting Captain N. Calder, Naval Hydrographer
Mr C. D. Campbell, Assistant Secretary, Supply Policy Mr W. F. Caplehorn, Senior Defence Officer, Defence Science Administration Mr Î. T. Murn, representing Mr P. J. Fogarty, Assistant Secretary, Defence Force, Industrial
Brigadier P. C. Oration, Director-General, Operations and Plans—Army Major-General C. Gurner, Surgeon-General, Defence Forces Mr T. W. Healy, Executive Officer, International Policy (ANZUS and UN Section)
Mr D. A. Hort, Director of Finance and General Services Mr Î. T. Hyland, First Assistant Secretary, Programs and Budgets Mr Î. P. Jones, Assistant Secretary, Defence Science Administration Captain J. M. Kelly, Director Naval Operations
Mr A. F. Kent, Assistant Secretary, Project Planning and Evaluation (DIM) Mr J. W. Knight, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning— Army Mr D. M. McAlister, Assistant Secretary, Manpower Policy and Requirements Mr F. W. McConaghy, Director of Civil Personnel, Administration
Mr L. A. McGee, Assistant Secretary, Quality Assurance and Engineering Re sources Policy Brigadier N. J. McGuire. Director-General, Movements and Transport Mr I. D. McLeod, Chief Executive Officer, Budgets and Estimates Co
ordination and Review Mr P. F. McNamara, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning—Navy Mr M. J. Madden, Assistant Secretary, Resources Planning—Air Force Mr R. D. Martin, Acting Assistant Secretary, Natural Disasters Organisation
Mr M. J. Murray, Chief Executive Officer, Procurement, Progressing and Procedures MrG. E. Nicholls, Assistant Secretary, Naval Technical Services Mr J. S. O’Neill, Assistant Secretary. Budgets and Estimates (General and
Co-ordination) Commodore R. H. Percy, Director-General, Joint Plans and Operations
117
Mr I. M. Reid, Assistant Secretary, Programs Management (Defence Facilities) Mr W. J. A. Ryan, Director, Program and Research Support Mr G. M. Taylor, Assistant Secretary, Industry Development Dr A. Taloni, Assistant Secretary, Project Co-ordination (Computing Services) Air Commodore R. Trebilco, Director-General, Operational Requirements—
Air Force Air Vice-Marshal S. R. White, Chief of Supply Mr R. Whithear, Chief Executive Officer, General Legal Mr D. A. Whitty, Assistant Secretary, International Policy (Papua New Guinea
and Defence Co-operation Programs) Mr J. R. Robson, Principal Executive Officer, Special Projects Section, Manage ment and General Services Division Department o f Finance:
Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting and Supply Division Mr A. R. Taylor, Finance Officer, Defence Branch The Chairman called on the following DivisionsTor consideration:
Divisions 234-242 — Department ofDefenee (Document A) The Committee concluded its consideration ofifhe proposed expenditure for the De partment of Defence.
3. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE W1&- 79- DEPART MENT OF BUSINESS AND CONSUMER AFFAIRS:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guiilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, accompanied by the following officers:
Department of Business and Consumer AJfairs: Mr F. I. Kelly, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Mr H. Bates, Commissioner, Federal Bureau ofNarcotics Mr K. O. Stilling, Assistant Secretary, A.D.P.
Mr W. Symington, Assistant Secretary, Business Economics Mr J. W. O ’Callaghan, Director, Finance and Property Mr M. Mikk, Assistant Director, Finance Mr R. M. Hullick, Finance Officer
Industries Assistance Commission: Mr A. G. Koukoulas Mr Frank Nott, Director, Management Services Mr John Hickey, Finance Officer
Trade Practices Commission: MrS. Malouf Mr D. K. Gill Mr M. Davies, Finance Officer Department of Finance:
Mr B. K. Conroy, Acting Assistant Secretary Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer
118
The Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions-195-202 — Department of Business and Consumer Affairs (Document A) '
Divisions 826-827 — Department of Business and Consumer Affairs (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De partment of Business and Consumer Affairs.
4. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-DEPART MENT OF FINANCE:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, accompanied by the following officers; Department o f Finance: Mr J. R. Bennett, Assistant Secretary, Management Services Branch
Mr G. M. Wauchop, Director, Personnel and Establishments Mr C. F. Niddrie, Assistant Finance Officer, Estimates and Accounts Mr B. K. Conroy, Assistant Secretary, Accounting and Supply Division Mr W. J. Brophy, Computer Systems Officer, Automatic Data Processing
Branch Mr D. Coutts, Chief Finance Officer, Transport and Industry Division Mr A. S. Cole, Assistant Secretary, General Expenditure Division Mr P. J. Gunther, Chief Finance Officer, General Expenditure Division Australian Government Retirement Benefits Office:
Mr D. N. Droop, Director Services Mr R. R. Jackson, Finance Officer Office of the Superannuation Fund Investment Trust: Mr W. J. Gynn, Secretary
Royal Australian Mint: Mr B. N. McLennan, Superintendent Mr D. J. Evans, Senior Finance Officer Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
Divisions 304-308 — Department of Finance (Document A) Divisions 845-847 — Department of Finance (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the De partment of Finance.
5. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79 - ADVANCE TO THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable M. G. C. Guilfoyle, Minister for Social Security, accompanied by the following officer: Mr D. K. Wallace, Chief Finance Officer The Chairman called on the following Divisions for consideration:
Division 310 — Advance to the Minister for Finance (Document A) Division 850 — Advance to the Minister for Finance (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the Ad vance to the Minister for Finance.
119
6. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 3.45 p.m.
7. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee attended the meet ing: Senators Collard, Thomas and Watson. Senators Tate, Walsh and Wriedt also took part in the Committee’s proceedings.
A. M. THOMAS C h a ir m a n
120
THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 4
THURSDAY, 19 OCTOBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 7.30 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Thomas) took the Chair.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-89-POSTAL AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT:
Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Administrative Ser vices, accompanied by the following officers: Postal and Telecommunications Department: Mr E. E. Payne, First Assistant Secretary, Policy Division
Mr W. Beard, First Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting Engineering Division Mr R. T. Lord, First Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting and Policy Division Mr M. Strohfeldt, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Radio Frequency Manage ment Division
Mr A. Westendorf, Director, Management Services Branch Mr B. G. Foster, Controller, Finance and Supply Australian Broadcasting Commission: Mr G. White, Assistant General Manager, Television
Mr K. Mackriell, Assistant General Manager, Radio Mr W. Funnell, Controller of Finance Mr R. McCormick, Federal Budget Officer Mr K. Bourke, Controller of Engineering
Mr G. Reynolds, Federal Director, Television Production Services Mr I. Newsom, Director, Radio Resources Australian Broadcasting Tribunal: Mr B. J. Connolly, Secretary
Mr C. J. Answerth, Acting Senior Executive Officer Australian Postal Commission: Mr B. R. Beilby, General Manager, Finance Mr G. Koch, Acting General Manager, Operations
Mr G. Brasier, Manager. Management Accounting Ms J. Spiller, Acting Secretary Australian Telecommunications Commission: Dr R. B. Cullen, Director, Finance Directorate
Mr E. R. Banks, General Manager, Customer Services Department MrS. H. Hansen, General Manager, Accounting and Supply Department Mr J. E. Freeman, Assistant Chief Engineer, Construction Mr G. P. Hudson, Manager, Financial Planning Special Broadcasting Service:
Mr R. E. Fowell, Executive Director Mr R. W. Stokes, Executive Officer Mr C. C. Campbell, Administrative Officer Mr M. Thompson, Director
121
D e p a r tm e n t o f F in a n c e :
Mr R. J. Go wing, Senior Finance Officer, Accounting Operations Branch The Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration: Divisions 480, 482, 486 — Postal and Telecommunications Department (Docu ment A)
Division 909 — Postal and Telecommunications Department (Document B)
3. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 11.54 p.m.
4. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Collard, Gietzelt, Ryan, Sibraa, Thomas and Watson. Senator Young also took part in the Committee’s proceedings.
A. M. THOMAS C h a ir m a n
122
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 5 MONDAY, 23 OCTOBER 1978
THE SENATE
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 7.33 p.m.
2. PARTICULARS OF PROPOSED EXPENDITURE 1978-79-POSTAL AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS DEPARTMENT: Appearing: Senator the Honourable F. M. Chaney, Minister for Administrative Ser vices, accompanied by the following officers:
Postal and Telecommunications Department: Mr E. E. Payne, First Assistant Secretary, Policy Division Mr W. Beard, First Assistant Secretary, Broadcasting Engineering Division Mr D. Williamson, Acting Assistant Secretary, Licensing Policy and Operations
Branch Mr B. G. Foster, Controller, Finance and Supply Australian Broadcasting Tribunal: Mr B. J. Connolly, Secretary
Mr C. J. Answerth, Acting Senior Executive Officer Australian Postal Commission: Mr B. R. Beilby, General Manager, Finance Mr G. Koch, Acting General Manager, Operations
MrG. Brasier, Manager, Management Accounting Ms J. Spiller, Acting Secretary Australian Telecommunications Commission: Dr R. B. Cullen, Director, Finance Directorate
Mr E. R. Banks, General Manager, Customer Services Department Mr S. H. Hansen, General Manager, Accounting and Supply Department Mr J. E. Freeman, Assistant Chief Engineer, Construction Mr G. P. Hudson, Manager, Financial Planning Department o f Finance:
Mr R. K. Caldwell, Senior Finance Officer The Chairman called upon the following Divisions for consideration: Division 484 — Postal and Telecommunications Department (Document A) Division 911— Postal and Telecommunications Department (Document B) The Committee concluded its consideration of the proposed expenditure for the
Postal and Telecommunications Department.
3. PRIVATE MEETING: For the purpose of considering a draft report the Com mittee went into a deliberative session.
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 10.45 p.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members of the Committee were present: Senators Gietzelt, Ryan, Sibraa, Thomas and Watson.
A. M. THOMAS Chairman
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THE SENATE
ESTIMATES COMMITTEE F
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS No. 6
TUESDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 1978
1. MEETING: The Committee met at 1.05 p.m. The Chairman (Senator Thomas) took the Chair.
2. On the Motion of Senator Collard the minutes of the previous meetings were confirmed.
3. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE: The Committee considered the Report. On the Motion of Senator Collard the Report was adopted.
4. ADJOURNMENT: The Committee adjourned at 1.10 p.m.
5. ATTENDANCE: The following members were present: Senators Collard, Sibraa and Thomas.
A. M. THOMAS C h a ir m a n
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