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Friday, 22 November 1912

The CHAIRMAN - I do not see how I can accept Senator Guthrie's amendment. Clause 331 of the Bill deals definitely and exclusively with the question which the -amendment affects. The amendment intro.duces the principle that pilots at a port where pilotage is compulsory, shall become members of the Commonwealth Public Service. I cannot say that that is relevant to clause 335. It seems to me that the question raised is practically on " allfours " with that which was settled this :morning by a ruling of the President.

Senator Millen - I think there is a difference between the question ruled upon toy the President this morning and that raised by Senator Guthrie's amendment. The amendment, first of all, contains a declaration as to what privileges' shall be conferred upon the holders of pilot licences. The amendment of the House of- Representatives takes something away from the holders of licences. Surely, if an amendment can be made in the clause withdrawing something from them, we can insert words adding compensation. That is all that Senator Guthrie's amendment does. The House of Representatives says, in effect, " We put a disability on these licences." Senator Guthrie proposes to accept that disability, but to add an advantage. I submit that if a limit can be put in in one direction, we can make an amendment granting an extension in another.

Senator Pearce - Senator Millen has argued as though we were at liberty to deal with the whole clause. . That is the fallacy which he and others have been constantly falling into. The Standing Orders Jay upon us the duty, not of dealing with the clause at this stage, but with the amendments of the House of Representatives. That is a very different thing. The only question is whether Senator Guthrie's amendment is in any way consequential upon the acceptance or rejection of the House of Representatives' amendment. That amendment does not affect the privileges of the compulsory pilots in the least degree, and the compulsory pilots are the only persons who can become public servants under this Bill. An amendment upon the House of Representatives' amendment must be relevant to the question of whether these licensed pilots shall or shall not act as pilots for any port at which pilotage is not compulsory under the measure. That is the only question at issue. I submit that it is not relevant to raise any question as to whether these pilots shall or shall not become public servants. That is another question altogether, which will have to be determined by this Parliament. The amendment raises no question of the pay or status of the pilot It merely deals with the ports at which they can act. Senator. Guthrie wants to alter the whole status of the men. The amendment is clearly governed by the previous ruling of the President.

Senator Guthrie - The question raised by my amendment is what is to be done with the pilots who are to be dealt with under the clause? The position is that, after this Bill passes and the pilot service is controlled by the Commonwealth, there will be in existence certain uncancelled! and certain unexpired licences. In this clause, the Government ask for the right to take over a certain number of certificated pilots into the Public Service, and to reject the others. At present, there is no provision to protect the rights of those who now hold certificates.

Senator Pearce - You are on the amend-i ment now.

Senator Guthrie - I am on the clause.

The CHAIRMAN - Under the standing order the whole of the clause is not before the Committee, but only such portion as has been amended by the other House, and the discussion must be confined to that amendment.

Senator Vardon - Senator Guthrie was, I think, a little premature in proposing hisamendment to this clause. It should have been proposed to amendment 154, which is to insert after " pilot " the words - but no such licence shall entitle the holder to act as pilot at a port at which pilotage is compulsory under this Act. |If it were proposed to be made there it could not be objected to, I think, on the ground that it was not relevant to the amendment of the other House, because that amendment deals with the pilots who are to be taken over, and the desire of Senator Guthrie is to protect the rights and interests of those men when they are taken over.

The CHAIRMAN - I would point out to the honorable senator that the amendment of Senator Guthrie was not put from the Chair.

Motion agreed to.

Amendments inserting "subject to this Act" after "shall," line 5, and substituting "licensed" for "coastal" agreed to.

House of Representatives' Amendment.- After "pilot," line 11, insert "but no such licence shall entitle the holder to act as pilot at a port at which pilotage is compulsory under this Act."

Motion (by Senator Pearce) proposed -

That the amendment be agreed to.

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