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Tuesday, 9 September 1958

Mr TURNBULL (Mallee) .- I rise to make one or two corrections to statements made in the speech by the honorable member for Griffith (Mr. Coutts) that we have just heard. The honorable member made some errors. It has been said that if you make a statement often enough, people will come to believe it. Therefore, it is best that I correct the errors immediately. With regard to one statement by the honorable member, what I wish to do involves nothing more than putting my opinion against his, but in respect of the others, definite proof that he was in error can be obtained from the Budget Speech of the Treasurer (Sir Arthur Fadden), and I shall read the relevant parts.

The honorable member said that the Department of Social Services was the most important of all departments because it concerned so many people. I do not think that it is the most important. I think that the most important departments covered by the Estimates are those that foster the industries that make possible the payment of pensions. The honorable member for Macquarie (Mr. Luchetti) has said that rates of pension should be based on the capacity of the country to provide such pensions. I agree with that. Therefore, the departments that foster the industries that provide the money for the benefits are the most important. The other departments are only of secondary importance. When the money is available, it is distributed to the pensioners. Of course, the more they receive the better we all are pleased. The honorable member for Griffith has a way of putting things back to front. Those listening to him may not understand him readily and may therefore get a wrong impression.

The honorable member said, rather dramatically, that he preferred to believe the Treasurer rather than to believe me, but apparently he believes neither. For the benefit of the honorable member, I shall read a passage from the Treasurer's Budget Speech. If I read it word by word, he should be able to understand it. It is as follows: -

Despite the interjections of honorable members opposite, it is clear that the supplementary allowance will be paid to both single pensioners and married pensioners. Those are the words of the Treasurer, whom the honorable member for Griffith prefers to believe. Yet, I said exactly what the Treasurer said.

The honorable member also took to task the honorable member for Sturt (Mr. Wilson). He stated that the honorable member for Sturt referred to the number of people paying rent, the number not paying rent, the number boarding, and the number in other categories, to support a claim that the rent allowance represented an amelioration of the means test. I do not think that the honorable member for Sturt said that at all. If I understood him correctly, his reference to a liberalization of the means test related to the following passage from the Budget Speech of the Treasurer: -

We know that the honorable member for Sturt has been a great fighter for the abolition of the means test, and, of course, every liberalization is pleasing to him, as he stated this afternoon. But the honorable member for Griffith completely misunderstands him and, misunderstanding him, quoted something that was quite irrelevant. I think that should be put right.

I do not think there is any member of this Parliament who would say that pensioners should not get as high a pension as possible. The honorable member for Macquarie said that pensions are paid according to what the country can pay - that they are based upon the capacity of the country to pay such benefits. The honorable member said also that pensions should be paid according to the service given to the community by pensioners. I hope that I have not misquoted his words or taken them out of their context, and I am sure that an examination of " Hansard " will show that I have not done so. What he meant was that pensioners have given great service to the community. I am not trying to gain political points from speeches made by Opposition members, and I agree that the pensioners have given great service to the community. But I do not think that, in that respect, they are any different from other sections of the community. Indeed, they are just a cross-section of the people, as are members of Parliament. I do not think that all the pensioners are pioneers. In fact, I think that the days of pioneering have largely passed. There may be a few people pioneering in the Northern Territory and a few other outlandish parts, but the real pioneering was done by our early settlers. I do not think Opposition members will contradict mc when I say that. Therefore, I should be loath to say that the pensioners are the pioneers of this country. They are a cross-section of the community. Some of them are among the greatest people that we have had, some are ordinary, everyday people, and some are not so good as we should like them to be. However, I do not wish it to be thought that I am trying to disparage them.

Some have fallen on poor times, through no fault of their own. Some have had large families to rear. Taking all those things into consideration, they are just a crosssection of the community, and as such should receive the highest pensions that the Government can give them. But the Government is budgeting, this financial year, for a deficit of £110,000,000; so money is not as readily available as it might be. It has been stated that this Government has not maintained the value of pensions at the same level at which it stood when Labour last increased pensions in its Budget in 1948. Authentic figures clarifying this matter have been presented in this chamber before.

Mr Galvin - The year was 1949.

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