EDUCATION, SKILLS AND EMPLOYMENT PORTFOLIO

In Attendance

Senator Cash, Minister for Employment, Skills, Small and Family Business

Senator Stoker, Assistant Minister to the Attorney-General

Department of Education, Skills and Employment

Dr Michele Bruniges AM, Secretary

Mr Marcus Markovic, Chief Operating Officer and Deputy Secretary, Corporate and Enabling Services

Dr Ros Baxter, Deputy Secretary, Early Childhood and Child Care

Ms Alex Gordon, Deputy Secretary, Schools

Mr Rob Heferen, Deputy Secretary, Higher Education, Research and International

Ms Nadine Williams, Deputy Secretary, Skills and Training

Mr Nathan Smyth, Deputy Secretary, Employment

Corporate and Enabling Services

Ms Gaby Medley-Brown, First Assistant Secretary, People, Parliamentary, Communication and Assurance

Ms Jocelyn Ashford, Assistant Secretary, People, Parliamentary, Communication and Assurance

Ms Gemma Smith, Assistant Secretary, People, Parliamentary, Communication and Assurance

Ms Mardi Stewart, Assistant Secretary, People, Parliamentary, Communication and Assurance

Mr Craig Boyd, First Assistant Secretary, Financial Management

Mr Scott Wallace, First Assistant Secretary, Technology and Services

Ms Natalie Horvat, First Assistant Secretary, Strategic Policy

Ms Cha Jordanoski, Assistant Secretary, Strategic Policy

Ms Kerryn Kovacevic, First Assistant Secretary, Digital Solutions

Mr Tim Ffrench, First Assistant Secretary, Legal

Mrs Genevieve Davin, Senior Executive Lawyer, Legal

Early Childhood and Child Care

Ms Kelly Pearce, First Assistant Secretary, Early Learning Policy

Ms Miranda Lauman, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Payment Policy and Engagement

Ms Kylie Crane, First Assistant Secretary, Disability Strategy Taskforce

Schools

Mr Fabian Harding, First Assistant Secretary, Funding and Data Collection Division

Ms Julie Birmingham, First Assistant Secretary, National System and Performance

Dr James Hart, First Assistant Secretary, Unique Student Identifier

Ms Maria Jolly, First Assistant Secretary, Improving Student Outcomes Division

Ms Rachel O'Connor, Assistant Secretary, Improving Student Outcomes Division

Ms Helen Stitt, Assistant Secretary, Improving Student Outcomes Division

Higher Education, Research and International

Mr David Pattie, First Assistant Secretary, Analysis and Data Division

Ms Rachel Lloyd, Assistant Secretary, Analysis and Data

Mr Dom English, First Assistant Secretary, Higher Education

Ms Drew Menzies-McVey, Assistant Secretary, Higher Education

Ms Margaret Leggett, Assistant Secretary, Higher Education

Mr Rajan Martin, Assistant Secretary, Higher Education

Mr Damian Coburn, Assistant Secretary, Higher Education

Ms Danielle Donegan, Assistant Secretary, Higher Education

Ms Carolyn Shrives, Assistant Secretary, Higher Education

Ms Karen Sandercock, First Assistant Secretary, International

Mr Travis Power, Assistant Secretary, International

Ms Karen Welsh, Assistant Secretary, International

Dr David Atkins, Assistant Secretary, International 

Skills and Training

Ms Belinda Campbell, Acting First Assistant Secretary, Apprenticeships and Workforce Skills

Ms Linda White, Assistant Secretary, Apprenticeships and Workforce Skills

Mr Jason Coutts, Assistant Secretary, Apprenticeships and Workforce Skills

Ms Alison McCann, Acting First Assistant Secretary and Senior Responsible Officer, Apprenticeship Data Management System

Ms Laura Angus, Senior Responsible Officer, Supporting Apprentices and Trainees/Boosting Apprenticeship Commencements

Mr Adam Weiderman, Assistant Secretary, Supporting Apprentices and Trainees/Boosting Apprenticeship Commencements

Ms Tiffany Blight, Executive Director, National Career Institute

Ms Mary McDonald, First Assistant Secretary, Skills Reform Taskforce

Ms Clare Sharp, Assistant Secretary, Skills Reform Taskforce

Mr Ben Vincent, Assistant Secretary, Skills Reform Taskforce

Mr Lewis Conn, Assistant Secretary, Skills Reform Taskforce

Ms Renae Houston, First Assistant Secretary, VET Quality and Policy

Ms Rachel Livingston, Assistant Secretary, VET Quality and Policy

Ms Katerina Lawler, Assistant Secretary, VET Quality and Policy

Mr Matthew Hardy, First Assistant Secretary, VSL, VET Compliance and TRA

Ms Katharine Dennis, Assistant Secretary, VSL, VET Compliance and TRA

Ms Kelly Fisher, Assistant Secretary, VSL, VET Compliance and TRA

Mr David Turvey, First Assistant Secretary, National Skills Commission

Employment

Ms Benedikte Jensen, First Assistant Secretary, Labour Market Strategy

Ms Carmel O'Regan, Assistant Secretary, Labour Market Strategy

Mr Alistair Beasley, Assistant Secretary, Labour Market Strategy

Ms Margaret Kidd, First Assistant Secretary, Delivery and Employer Engagement

Ms Helen McCormack, Assistant Secretary, Delivery and Employer Engagement

Mr Derek Stiller, Assistant Secretary, Delivery and Employer Engagement

Mr Malcolm Greening, Assistant Secretary, Delivery and Employer Engagement

Mr John Dardo, Senior Responsible Official, New Employment Services Model

Ms Melissa Ryan, First Assistant Secretary, New Employment Services Model

Ms Robyn Shannon, First Assistant Secretary, Quality, Integrity and Evidence

Ms Louise O'Rance, Assistant Secretary, Quality, Integrity and Evidence

Ms Heike Phillips, Assistant Secretary, Quality, Integrity and Evidence

Ms Janine Pitt, First Assistant Secretary, Employment Programs and Activation

Mr Tim Matthews, Assistant Secretary, Employment Programs and Activation

Ms Jodie Wearne, Assistant Secretary, Employment Programs and Activation

Mr Kraig Lowes, Assistant Secretary, Employment Programs and Activation

Australian Curriculum , Ass essment and Reporting Authority

Mr David de Carvalho, Chief Executive Officer, Curriculum, Assessment and Reporting

Mr Peter Titmanis, General Manager, Assessment and Reporting

Ms Janet Davy, Director, Curriculum

Australian Institute for Teaching and School Leadership

Mr Edmund Misson, Deputy Chief Executive Officer

Mr Don Abell, Chief Financial Officer

Ms Lisa Molloy, General Counsel and Company Secretary

Australian Research Council

Professor Sue Thomas, Chief Executive Officer

Ms Kylie Emery, Branch Manager, Policy and Strategy

Ms Sarah Howard, Branch Manager, Research Excellence

Ms Kathie Dent, Chief Programs Officer

Ms Julija Delva, Branch Manager, Corporate Services

Tertiary Educati on Quality and Standards Agency

Emeritus Professor Peter Coaldrake, Chief Commissioner

Mr Alistair Maclean, Chief Executive Officer

Mr Robert Oliphant, Director Corporate and Chief Financial Officer

Aust ralian Skills Quality Authority

Ms Saxon Rice, Chief Commissioner and Chief Executive Officer

Ms Christina Bolger, Executive General Manager, Quality and Risk

Australian National Un iversity

Professor Brian Schmidt, Vice-Chancellor and President

Professor Keith Nugent, Deputy Vice-Chancellor, Research and Innovation

National Centre for Vocational Education Research

Mr Simon Walker, Managing Director

National Skills Commission

Mr Adam Boyton, National Skills Commissioner

Committee met at 09:01

CHAIR ( Senator McGrath ): I declare open this meeting of the Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee on Thursday 25 March 2021. The Senate has referred to the committee the particulars of proposed expenditure for 2020-21 and certain other documents for the following portfolios: Education, Skills and Employment, including industrial relations; and Industry, Science, Energy and Resources, excluding industry, science, energy and resources but including small business. The committee may also examine the annual reports of departments and agencies appearing before it. The committee has decided that answers to questions on notice will be required to be returned by close of business on Friday 7 May. The committee has resolved that written questions shall be received from senators by close of business on Thursday 1 April.

Under standing order 26, the committee must take all evidence in public session. This includes answers to questions on notice. I remind all witnesses that in giving evidence to the committee they are protected by parliamentary privilege. It is unlawful for anyone to threaten or disadvantage a witness on account of evidence given to a committee, and such action may be treated by the Senate as a contempt. It is also a contempt to give false or misleading evidence to a committee.

The Senate, by resolution in 1999, endorsed the following test of relevance for questions at estimates hearings: any questions going to the operations or financial positions or the departments and agencies which are seeking funds in the estimates are relevant questions for the purpose of estimates hearings. I remind officers that the Senate has resolved that there are no areas in connection with the expenditure of public funds where any person has a discretion to withhold details or explanations from the parliament or its committees unless the parliament has expressly provided otherwise.

The Senate has resolved that an officer of a department of the Commonwealth shall not be asked to give opinions on matters of policy and shall be given reasonable opportunity to refer questions asked of the officer to superior officers or to a minister. This resolution prohibits only questions asking for opinions on matters of policy and does not preclude questions asking for explanations of policies or factual questions about when and how policies were adopted. I particularly draw the attention of witnesses to an order of the Senate of 13 May 2009 specifying the process by which a claim of public interest immunity should be raised, which will be incorporated by Hansard:.

The extract read as follows—

Public interest immunity claims

That the Senate—

(a) notes that ministers and officers have continued to refuse to provide information to Senate committees without properly raising claims of public interest immunity as required by past resolutions of the Senate;

(b) reaffirms the principles of past resolutions of the Senate by this order, to provide ministers and officers with guidance as to the proper process for raising public interest immunity claims and to consolidate those past resolutions of the Senate;

(c) orders that the following operate as an order of continuing effect:

(1) If:

(a) a Senate committee, or a senator in the course of proceedings of a committee, requests information or a document from a Commonwealth department or agency; and

(b) an officer of the department or agency to whom the request is directed believes that it may not be in the public interest to disclose the information or document to the committee, the officer shall state to the committee the ground on which the officer believes that it may not be in the public interest to disclose the information or document to the committee, and specify the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or document.

(2) If, after receiving the officer's statement under paragraph (1), the committee or the senator requests the officer to refer the question of the disclosure of the information or document to a responsible minister, the officer shall refer that question to the minister.

(3) If a minister, on a reference by an officer under paragraph (2), concludes that it would not be in the public interest to disclose the information or document to the committee, the minister shall provide to the committee a statement of the ground for that conclusion, specifying the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or document.

(4) A minister, in a statement under paragraph (3), shall indicate whether the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or document to the committee could result only from the publication of the information or document by the committee, or could result, equally or in part, from the disclosure of the information or document to the committee as in camera evidence.

(5) If, after considering a statement by a minister provided under paragraph (3), the committee concludes that the statement does not sufficiently justify the withholding of the information or document from the committee, the committee shall report the matter to the Senate.

(6) A decision by a committee not to report a matter to the Senate under paragraph (5) does not prevent a senator from raising the matter in the Senate in accordance with other procedures of the Senate.

(7) A statement that information or a document is not published, or is confidential, or consists of advice to, or internal deliberations of, government, in the absence of specification of the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or document, is not a statement that meets the requirements of paragraph (1) or (4).

(8) If a minister concludes that a statement under paragraph (3) should more appropriately be made by the head of an agency, by reason of the independence of that agency from ministerial direction or control, the minister shall inform the committee of that conclusion and the reason for that conclusion, and shall refer the matter to the head of the agency, who shall then be required to provide a statement in accordance with paragraph (3).

(d) requires the Procedure Committee to review the operation of this order and report to the Senate by 20 August 2009.

(13 May 2009 J.1941)

(Extract, Senate Standing Orders)

CHAIR: Witnesses are specifically reminded that a statement that information or a document is confidential or consists of advice to government is not a statement that meets the requirements of the 2009. Instead, witnesses are required to provide some specific indication of the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or the document. Senators, departments and agencies have been provided with advice on the arrangements in place to ensure the additional estimates hearings are conducted in a safe environment. This guidance is also available from the secretariat.