DACEY, Ms Christine, Deputy Secretary, Transport Group, Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications

DYMOWSKI, Mr Jason, Assistant Secretary, Domestic Aviation and Reform, Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications

QUIGLEY, Ms Janet, First Assistant Secretary, Domestic Aviation and Reform, Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications

RALSTON, Ms Kelly, Acting Deputy Chief Executive Officer, Australian Trade and Investment Commission

WOOD, Mr Richard, First Assistant Secretary, International Aviation, Technology and Services, Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications

CHAIR: I welcome representatives from the Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications and the Australian Trade and Investment Commission, Austrade. Would you like to make an opening statement?

Ms Dacey : No.

CHAIR: I give the call to Senator Watt.

Senator WATT: I want to focus initially on the Tourism Aviation Network Support program, particularly the flights that are subsidised by government. Can you give us a quick overview of what the department considers to be the benefit to tourism of that package?

Ms Dacey : TANS was announced by the government on 11 March. It was part of a broader package. As you identified, one of the key features of it was the provision of approximately 800,000 discounted economy class airfares. Very pleasingly, we have seen very, very strong take-up by consumers of those airfares. I think we have discussed before—perhaps not with this committee, maybe at Senate estimates—that there was a tourism objective and there was an aviation objective. From our point of view, we are seeing significant uptick in aviation activity. That is only part of the story. In and of itself, what we were looking to drive were enhanced and greater levels of consumer confidence in being able to travel again, including across state lines. All of the anecdotal evidence—and I might ask Ms Quigley to give you highlights—indicates that we are seeing that being achieved. Ms Quigley might be able to tell you some of the headline stats that we've had from the airlines and some of the anecdotal feedback from the airports about the sorts of impacts that we've seen post 11 March.

Senator WATT: Really quickly, if you can; I'm happy to get further detail tabled.

Ms Dacey : Sure.

Ms Quigley : At the beginning of the program, the airlines reported that there was a significant increase in bookings, so up by about 40 per cent. We also saw that the searches for flights increased by about 75 per cent, and that was consistent across major airlines. We've had approximately 80 per cent of the tickets sold to date and we've seen consumer patterns, as Ms Dacey said, growing in confidence in terms of their ability to make forward bookings. Prior to this initiative, I think people had been reserving their bookings until the last minute to make sure that their travel wasn't going to be impeded. But we have seen some changes in behaviour in terms of long-term bookings. All airlines have engaged with broader network sales as well. The TANS has offered the airlines an opportunity to scale up their activity, so you'll see network sales, spot sales et cetera that are also supporting that sort of consumer confidence and increased domestic travel.

Senator WATT: Thanks for that. As I said, feel free to table any further data that you have on any of that. I just remembered that I personally had a look at these half-price fares. It's not that I booked any, but I did have a look at what was available, and—

Ms Dacey : It's never too late. You could still get on!

CHAIR: It's not a good look.

Senator WATT: True, I wouldn't want to be accused of a conflict of interest. One of the things I noticed, for instance, is that some of the discounts for fares were available—say, between Brisbane and the Northern Territory—but they seemed to be only available for very long connections. So, rather than direct lights, often you had to go via Sydney or Melbourne. What should be a four-hour flight turned out to be a 15-hour flight. Was there any work done to ensure that the discounted fares were made available for people who actually did want to take them rather than just discounting the flights that the airlines were having difficulty selling?

Ms Dacey : We engaged in very lengthy and detailed conversations about how the tickets would be offered. As you know, airlines run on a network basis, and, as you know, those networks have been operating at very much below the levels that they were for COVID. A general observation would be that I am not terribly surprised that there was some clunkiness where connections were needing to be made. There were certainly a number of flights. I don't have that data with me; we would have to take on notice how many are direct verses how many involved more than two legs, where you talk about the sorts of connection issues that you yourself might have identified. I will say that we have not had consumer complaints about the sorts of connections and offerings that were available. I think the information we have is that there has been a sum total of nine questions to the ACCC out of over 600,000 tickets that have been sold, so we consider that consumers have not chosen to make representations or to raise concerns with us. In terms of the flights that you are specifically looking at, I also went online and had a look and also did not buy a ticket. I think it was very dependent on what particular travel sector you were looking at. I do have colleagues here at the table who were far more intimately involved in the negotiation of key routes who can provide further detail for you, but, at a macro level, I accept that there was probably a level of clunkiness but that we are not seeing that manifested in terms of consumer complaints.

Senator WATT: Again, in the interests of time, maybe something could be put on notice setting out what was done to maximise the convenience for the travelling public, if you like, in terms of the fares that were made available.

Ms Dacey : Correct.

Senator WATT: You've already told us about 80 per cent of these discounted fares have now been sold. I'm in Cairns at the moment, and, frankly, I can see some of the benefit of that program. But what comes next once this program has concluded to ensure that people keep flying and our tourism industry is kept afloat, since this seems to be one of the major forms of support the government is providing?

Ms Dacey : I think the issue of consumer confidence is the one that we are most interested in tracking. Obviously our Austrade colleagues will have different lenses that they look at it through. Part of the TANS proposal was to engender a stronger sense of confidence and the enduring ability of the borders to stay open. We are hoping, and we are seeing predictions from airlines, that they will reach 90 per cent capacity, 80 per cent capacity and above capacity for Qantas, Virgin and Jetstar in the next six months. So I think that those are the flow-on benefits that we are expecting will support not only the aviation sector but the tourism sector broadly.

Senator WATT: Has your department done any work, whether it be market research, policy work or anything, that examines the connection between the speed of the vaccine rollout and the confidence that that inspires—the reduction in lockdowns that we might see and the increase in travelling and therefore the tourism industry? Is your department involved in any of that?

Ms Dacey : We're certainly involved in discussions about vaccine rollout with Health colleagues and other colleagues across the Australian government. We have not done any specific modelling, but we are in constant contact with airlines, airports and other people in the sector about what they see in terms of booking patterns every time there is a lockdown. One of our general observations is that we appear to have moved from that period of extended hard border closures domestically to a different model now—the snap three-day lockdown for an area. What we are seeing anecdotally is that the impact on consumer confidence is far less profound with the new model. It seems that the link between the vaccine rollout and increased consumer confidence is playing out as you would imagine so that, as we move through different phases of the pandemic and our response it, you're seeing that general incline in consumer confidence more generally.

Senator WATT: Would it be fair, then, to say that the faster we can get the vaccine rollout happening, the lesser the chance of lockdowns and the greater the benefit to the tourism industry and the aviation industry would be?

Ms Dacey : I'm not a medical professional. I would never presume to make a commentary on the vaccine and what people do with it—

Senator WATT: Obviously you're here from the department of infrastructure and transport, so I'm not asking you to talk about the health benefits of the vaccine. There must be a benefit to getting the vaccine rolled out and increasing the likelihood that people can travel more confidently.

Ms Dacey : I stand by the comments I just made before. I think we're seeing a different approach taken by jurisdictions for whatever reasons. We are also seeing a change in the impact that each lockdown has on consumer confidence. We are very much hoping that a positive trajectory continues.

Senator WATT: I can't remember whether we canvassed this as estimates recently, but what was the reason your department and the government generally went down the path of this type of support for the industry rather than what some people have called 'AviationKeeper'?

Ms Dacey : We did talk about it at estimates. I think the evidence we provided was that we were asked for a lot of different support and a lot of different mechanisms—everything from 'AviationKeeper' to new programs and to the extension of existing programs. We provided advice to government in the usual way. This was the mechanism that was agreed upon by government.

Senator WATT: But 'AviationKeeper' was one of the options that was considered.

Ms Dacey : No, I did not say that. I said that people asked for it.

Senator WATT: When we last discussed this at estimates, you at that point weren't able to provide a funding amount allocated to this TANS program because there were still commercial negotiations underway with the airlines. Are you able to now detail the cost of that program?

Ms Dacey : We have concluded all of the commercial negotiations. In the usual fashion, when they are concluded, they get published on GrantConnect. So that information is rolling out. I think that there are two numbers that are already up. They were published on 14 April. They were for two of the smaller ones. As you would appreciate, these were large, difficult and complex contracts to negotiate. I can confirm that both of those amounts were $100,000 each. They were for FlyPelican and for Link, two of the smaller regional ones who would be doing flights to whatever regions. If you want the details, we could probably get those to you. The others are concluded and will be published on GrantConnect in the coming days.

CHAIR: But there's nothing to—

Senator WATT: Is there a reason you're unable to tell—

Ms Dacey : No, I'm just telling you where they are in terms of the publication. I can give you the details, and I can get Ms Quigley to provide those to you. I was just telling you what's out there in the public domain already.

Senator WATT: Thanks. If you could give us those figures, that'd be great.

Ms Dacey : Yes.

Ms Quigley : We've got total funding, which is the maximum amount on the seven contracts, of $204.5 million.

Senator WATT: So $204.5 million has been paid?

Ms Quigley : No—has been agreed as the maximum contract value for the seven airlines engaged in the TANS program.

Senator WATT: And they will be paid those sums as people buy tickets?

Ms Quigley : We pay in arrears. It's a weekly true-up. We get the data from the airlines, we assess it and then we pay for the tickets that have been sold in that period.

Ms Dacey : Just to remind the committee—again, this is evidence we provided previously: this money is a straight pass-through, so the grant amounts that go to the airlines reflect the discounted amounts that have flowed through to the consumer.

Senator WATT: For argument's sake, if I bought what would normally be a $400 fare but I paid $200 and the department picked up $200, $204.5 million represents a multiple of $200 or whatever this gap might be?

Ms Dacey : That's right.

Senator WATT: Can you break that figure down by each of the seven airlines, please?

Ms Quigley : For Qantas, it's $144.8 million; for Virgin, it's $40.3 million; for Airnorth, it's $12.8 million; for Rex, it's $6.4 million; for Alliance, it's $0.2 million; and then you've got FlyPelican and Link at $100,000. The Qantas element includes Jetstar—so it's the Qantas Group figure.

Senator WATT: It's not likely that that overall amount will increase now—so that's pretty much it?

Ms Quigley : That's the maximum amount we've paid.

Senator WATT: Unless the government decides to extend it?

Ms Dacey : That's right. If there is a decision of government it may change, but those are the now contracted amounts.

CHAIR: That's for the 800,000 tickets?

Ms Quigley : On sale presently, yes.

CHAIR: Of which some remain unsold at this point?

Ms Quigley : About 20 per cent.

Senator WATT: Is it actually dead on 800,000, or is that a round figure?

Ms Dacey : I think last time we talked about our hope for achieving a little bit more. I might get Mr Dymowski to let you know where we got to.

Mr Dymowski : We managed to get marginally more than the 800,000—it's within about five per cent over—through the negotiations with the airlines.

Senator WATT: Maybe you can table this: are you able to break down the number of tickets negotiated with each of those airlines as well?

Ms Dacey : We don't have that split. We can take it on notice.

Senator WATT: Is there an average for the final negotiated cost per ticket?

Ms Dacey : I think it's quite variable for a range of reasons. Mr Dymowski might have some more details.

Mr Dymowski : It varies by route. The airlines are covering quite different routes amongst them. We worked on their lead-in fares that they're selling in the market; there's a 50 per cent discount on those. That will vary depending on the route the carrier is doing. We haven't done an average across those.

Senator WATT: Can you advise on notice what the average cost negotiated per ticket is, and then perhaps provide the figures for the different routes?

Ms Dacey : I think by route is more difficult, because that's the very sensitive end of the commercial arrangements. Can we take on notice to give you as much of a sensible answer as we can that assists the committee in understanding how we approached the negotiations and what we sought to achieve? It's just the very specific route information that might be problematic for us.

Senator WATT: That sounds fine, thank you. We asked this question of Austrade at estimates but they deferred to Infrastructure, by which time we'd already had you in for estimates: is the discount being paid 50 per cent of the normal fare or 50 per cent of the full price fare?

Mr Dymowski : It's 50 per cent of the lead-in fare—so an economy class lead-in fare that would be on offer at the same time. A lead-in fare is generally the cheapest economy fare that airlines are offering. It's the fare that you would usually see on the website—so it's 50 per cent off of that.

Senator WATT: So it's the cheapest economy fare an airline offers. But that doesn't represent all the economy fares an airline is offering, so, in fact, someone may end up having to pay more than 50 per cent of the airfare if they're getting 50 per cent of the cheapest airfare from the government.

Ms Dacey : That's right. On any given flight, you can get an economy class fare for three or four different price points. When you log on to an airline website, you will see that they have a 'deal of the day' or something you buy during their 'happy hour' special. They've got one with a bit more flexibility that costs more money, one that gives you more status credits and one you can change without a fare that costs more money. We negotiated on a lead-in fare, because that was the price point that was the sharpest and the most competitive. As we said in evidence before, we used the February 2021 reference data for each of those so that no-one could game the system, because they didn't know we were doing this. So we had the most recent data. I think one of the questions we had before was, 'Would that have been quite an expensive fare?' My response at the time, which hasn't changed, was: we were seeing pretty good lead-in fares because the airlines were trying to stimulate demand as well.

Senator WATT: On price gouging: we talked about the risk of price gouging at estimates. What assurances did the department get that ticket prices would not be inflated to absorb the government contribution but would still cost customers the same amount—for instance, the airlines could bump up the cost of a $400 ticket to Darwin to $600, get the government subsidy but not save the consumer anything. What's been done to make sure that that hasn't happened?

Ms Quigley : Through the contract negotiations, as we've described, we've done our own research in terms of the fares that were set in February, and that set the ceiling for us; we looked to try and negotiate within that. Within the contractual arrangements, all airlines have to sign up to the fact that they will use the lead-in fare as the starting price—that will be 50 per cent—and they cannot go above or below, to make sure that we don't create price wars through the program. We will only pay when there's evidence that demonstrates they've used the lead-in fare and it's 50 per cent off that. We've also got the ACCC monitoring the airlines; they've been doing this for some time. They are looking at the competition elements. We've briefed them on the TANS program, so they're aware of the construct of that. We've also got the ability in the contract to scrutinise data if we feel that that is required, but we think we've got sufficient triggers in there to ensure that the 50 per cent discount will be delivered on.

Senator WATT: Finally, have you or the ACCC found any evidence that any of the airlines have gamed the system in the way I've described—that they've inflated the cost of an airfare beyond what it normally would have been, and, in the end, the consumer has saved nothing?

Ms Quigley : No, there's been no evidence to suggest that.

Senator WATT: But you have been looking?

Ms Quigley : Yes.

Senator WATT: Thank you.

Senator DAVEY: Looking at TANS, this is the latest announcement to support the aviation network. For the benefit of people listening in, can you explain the difference between TANS and DANS, the Domestic Aviation Network Support package, and RANS, the Regional Aviation Network Support package, and what we're trying to achieve with those different packages?

Ms Quigley : The $1.2 billion package that was announced on the 11th, which included TANS, had a number of new measures and extended existing programs. We've got the extension of the DANS program, which is the Domestic Aviation Network Support program, till the end of September. It provides a minimum network for interstate routes. We've got the top 50 routes that get covered by the airlines and it makes sure that we can continue a minimum level of connectivity where there are issues with delivering that service. We've got the extension of the Regional Aviation Network Support system. That's got the same kind of principles. It's a minimum network, but it's provided to the regions, ensuring that we can maintain a minimum regional level of connectivity. We've got the International Aviation Support measure which was also announced within this package. It supports and maintains a core Australian international aviation capability. We've got the Domestic Airports Security Costs Support program which is providing assistance to airports to cover passenger and baggage security screening requirements and making sure that those costs don't flow down to the passenger. We've also got the Aviation Services Accreditation Support program, which focuses on providing support to ground handling companies to cover costs related to qualifications, accreditation and training to make sure that we've got a core of ground-handling staff ready to ramp up as the domestic aviation system recovers. They're the ones that were covered in the $1.2 billion package.

Ms Dacey : Senator, can I confirm that you are asking how RANS, DANS and TANS all work together? Is that what you want to get at?

Senator DAVEY: Yes. Much has been made, particularly with TANS, that the subsidised tickets are restricted to certain areas. My understanding is that the locations were identified as those areas most heavily impacted by the international border shutdown. Because we have had RANS and DANS already in play for some time, I just want to understand how the other areas are being supported through the programs.

Ms Dacey : RANS and DANS have been around since April last year. They were implemented in the face of the complete shutdown of the aviation sector on Easter Thursday 2020. We'd had advice from the airlines that they were going to cease flying altogether. The RANS and DANS programs have been constructed to work alongside each other to ensure that there is a minimum connectivity for regional Australia, for capital cities and on major intrastate routes, which we call trunk routes. The two programs work side-by-side and have done for nearly 15 months now. The DANS program is the top 50 traffic routes in Australia, and the RANS program is the category of minimum connectivity that falls outside that top 50 route. As you identified, TANS is a different category again and it has a different focus. So the three of them do work alongside each other, although TANS is obviously the newest of them.

Importantly, through TANS and through the change in circumstances, we are seeing more than minimum connectivity now in the RANS and DANS space as well. We're seeing a general uptick and uplift in aviation activity. I am comfortable to characterise those programs as having provided support across the country. I accept that people in communities may wish that they had more frequent services, or that they had what they had before COVID, but in terms of making sure that there was no part of Australia that was completely isolated and cut off from aviation services, I think they've achieved their objectives.

Senator DAVEY: Late last year, due to Qantas announcing that they were moving into some regional areas, Rex announced they would cease operating six routes in regional areas. Is there a linkage between RANS and access to RANS and new routes going into regional areas or the closure of routes? Is there any connection there, or is that a completely separate issue?

Ms Dacey : Fundamentally, airlines will make commercial decisions about where they want to fly. That Rex decision—and I think it's since been reversed—was couched in terms of 'if RANS support is ceased, then we will cease flying to these regions'. RANS support has been extended, so it's a moot point. Whether Rex will make that decision at some point when, one day, RANS ends, I just don't know.

In constructing these programs, we've tried very hard not to get in the way of natural market responses. We do not want to distort the markets by virtue of our interventions, so we are trying very hard in the way that we construct the programs to not artificially change what the commercial decisions of the airlines would be.

Senator DAVEY: Is it fair to say that, while those programs have allowed for the continued connectivity between regional areas, or the domestic top 50 connecting routes, they have also enabled a lot of freight provisions to continue between those areas, which otherwise would have been isolated to a point where they were waiting days for freight to come in via road?

Ms Dacey : Absolutely. The freight impacts have been significant and positive. Again, I'm sure everyone would like to have what they had before COVID, but, in terms of maintaining freight linkages, yes—airfreight linkages in particular. That's not to take away from our trucking friends, because I'm sure Senator Sterle would be very cross with me if I didn't acknowledge the role of truckies!

Senator DAVEY: Absolutely! And I fully support our land and air freight networks; there's a role for both of them. You mentioned briefly the International Aviation Support package. A lot of that was actually presented in the media as a JobKeeper for Qantas. Can you actually explain what that package is? Is it a JobKeeper for Qantas? Is it just for Qantas? How does that support work?

Ms Dacey : It is fundamentally very different to JobKeeper. As you would be aware—and I'm not a Treasury expert—JobKeeper was a wage subsidy paid to individuals. This is a support payment that is made to the two Australian international carriers, Virgin and Qantas. It is designed to give them support so that they can retain an international aviation capability. We know the international borders, with the exception so far of the New Zealand safe travel zone, are not substantially open. There is no capacity to see that uptick that we are seeing in domestic aviation whilst the health circumstances warrant the international borders being substantially closed. We have structured the program so that we will make payments to the airlines, not to the individuals, to support workforce, crew and capability readiness for the day that international borders ease and we can start to hopefully see the gradual reopening of international aviation in the way that we have seen the gradual reopening of domestic aviation.

Senator DAVEY: Thanks. I think that's all I have at the moment.

CHAIR: Senator Siewert.

Senator SIEWERT: I've got a different set of questions, about topics other than aviation. Can I ask what role either the department or Austrade has in terms of negotiating intellectual property and the TRIPS waiver issues internationally for vaccines.

Ms Dacey : We're all shaking our heads. I don't think any of us can help you, I'm afraid.

Senator SIEWERT: So Austrade doesn't have any role in this issue?

Ms Ralston : No, we don't. I suspect maybe the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade as well as our IP Australia and other colleagues have, but certainly not Austrade, in a negotiation sense.

Senator SIEWERT: You've had no engagement with any questions being asked of the agency?

Ms Ralston : Not that I'm aware of. I'll make inquiries, but nothing that we're aware of.

Senator SIEWERT: Has the department had any role in this issue?

Ms Dacey : The department of infrastructure?

Senator SIEWERT: Yes.

Ms Dacey : No.

Senator SIEWERT: Have you had any role in looking at investments in the manufacturing and development of capacity of mRNA vaccines, in terms of an Australian manufacturer?

Ms Dacey : The department of infrastructure again?

Senator SIEWERT: Yes.

Ms Dacey : Not to my knowledge, no.

Ms Ralston : From an Austrade point of view, I don't have any information with me today so we'll have to take that on notice. I'm not aware of any conversation about investment in an Australian capacity. We talk to foreign investors on a range of activities and a range of industry sectors but nothing that's striking me that would relate to your question here.

Senator SIEWERT: If you could take it on notice, that would be appreciated. So you haven't been talking to foreign investors about investing in an Australian capacity or transfer of intellectual property?

Ms Ralston : I couldn't say clearly. It's not in the evidence we've brought for this particular conversation. We were expecting it to be focusing more on the tourism and infrastructure related issues. We'll make some inquiries of our colleagues. I couldn't possibly say what we've—I'll see what we can get to you quickly.

Senator SIEWERT: Thank you. What role, if any, and work interactions have you had with the National COVID Commission Advisory Board?

Ms Dacey : The NCC, the COVID commission?

Senator SIEWERT: Yes.

Ms Dacey : In a very general sense, we have provided advice to the NCC on a variety of supply chain issues, aviation issues. On behalf of my colleagues in the communications side of our portfolio, I'm sure at various times they may have provided advice to the NCC. My primary focus has been on the aviation aspects, and it's been quite a dedicated focus for a long period of time now.

Senator SIEWERT: In terms of the aviation focus and the role of the commission and interaction with the department, what level of engagement and advice have they been providing on the aviation aspects of the work that you've been doing?

Ms Dacey : Nothing specific. I think they had a very wide remit in advising government. There were various points of time—for example, when we thought that the whole fleet was going to be grounded—we briefed up. But there are no specific programs. There are no specific elements that I could point you to.

Senator SIEWERT: That they have provided advice on or that you are acting on their advice?

Ms Dacey : When you say 'provided advice', are you saying provided advice to the department or to the Prime Minister or to national cabinet? Again, I won't be able to give you a very—

Senator SIEWERT: To the department or that has been passed on to you via PM&C.

Ms Dacey : To the best of my knowledge, I can't recall a specific aviation matter that they have advised us, the department, on.

Senator SIEWERT: Directly or indirectly through PM&C?

Ms Dacey : Either.

Senator SIEWERT: Are there other areas where they have provided advice more broadly on infrastructure, that they have provided advice on either directly or through PM&C?

Ms Dacey : I would have to take that on notice, I'm sorry; that's outside my area of daily responsibility.

Senator SIEWERT: Thank you. Could you also take on notice, if that was provided, what the nature of the advice was? I suspect I'll get back that it was in confidence. Anyway, I'm going to ask. And could you tell me what issues that was on and whether that advice has been enacted? In other words, is it now underpinning certain investment or decisions that have been made by the department?

Ms Dacey : I'm happy to take that on notice.

Senator SIEWERT: In terms of communications, I may have misunderstood what you meant by any advice or interaction from the commission on communications. What did you mean by that?

Ms Dacey : All I'm saying is that there is a communications function. My colleagues in—I call it the other half of the department, but, functionally, we all have areas of the department that we're responsible for, and I just don't know. But, given the importance that communications play in the well functioning of our society, it may have been at some point that the ACCC asked for advice. But, again, I just can't comment with any authority. So that will be captured in the notice question that I just took from you.

Senator SIEWERT: So there are two things there. There's advice that the department may have provided to the commission, and then there's advice—

Ms Dacey : The reverse.

Senator SIEWERT: that comes back from the commission. Could you take on notice both of those issues?

Ms Dacey : Yes.

Senator SIEWERT: That's all for the moment, Chair.

CHAIR: Senator Watt.

Senator WATT: Going back to the point about Rex that Senator Davey was asking about, when the discounted tickets program was first announced, a number of ministers commented that, in order to ensure there would be no price gouging, officials would be ensuring that airlines had previously flown the routes that were now to be subsidised and there would be cross-checking of fares. Are you able to explain then which routes Rex is receiving subsidies for under this program and whether any of them are new routes for Rex as they expand their services and bring new aircraft into their fleet?

Ms Dacey : Again, getting back to the commercial sensitivity around routes, there will be some limits to the level of specificity, but, what I can confirm in absolute terms for you is that there are no TANS airfares available—and no DANS or RANS airfares, for that matter, available—for new Rex services because that is outside the remit. It goes back to our policy design of not distorting the market.

Ms Quigley : If I can just clarify, the eligibility for the airlines to receive funding was that they had to have flown the route in the previous two years or announced a new route prior to 11 March and it would be operated during the period. So that's how we determined the eligibility criteria for routes.

Senator WATT: How many routes are being subsidised under this program that were announced prior to 11 March but not operated prior to that time?

Ms Quigley : We'd have to take that on notice. It's a very small number, but I'd have to take that on notice.

Ms Dacey : And to be clear, it couldn't just be a thought bubble—that someone was thinking about entering this market. We had to be satisfied that that commercial decision had been made, arrangements were in place for that to commence on a certain date and tickets were being sold. So there were a number of tests that we applied. But, as Ms Quigley said, it's a very small number.

Senator WATT: Maybe on notice you could tell us the number of routes and the number of tickets that are being funded through this program that were not being operated prior to 11 March. So there are some routes that are being funded that hadn't previously been flown before, but you're saying that there were safeguards in place to ensure that Rex or anyone else wasn't gaming the system?

Ms Dacey : Correct. The policy parameters were quite clear.

Senator WATT: Is it possible, then, that Rex—or other airlines—has used the additional funding that's been provided to expand its services, rather than simply to continue services that it was already offering?

Ms Dacey : We are satisfied by virtue of the accounting mechanisms and assurance mechanisms that we have in place that no funding that has been provided under any of the COVID response programs has been used to support that expansion.

Senator WATT: It must have been, to an extent, in the sense of these new routes that they announced they were going to fly pre 11 March.

Ms Dacey : That was a commercial decision that the airline had already made. What they would then have the benefit of is accessing some TANS discounted flights on that service. So it hasn't funded the expansion. That commercial decision has already been made by the entity and announced, and approvals and regulatory authorities secured. So they were already going to do that. But, in the same way that others got the benefit of the discounted tickets, they would then have got the benefit of a set number of discounted tickets for those routes.

Senator WATT: So, if they're routes that Rex was only operating for a short period of time or, in fact, had not operated but was proposing to, how did you determine the baseline price that you would subsidise?

Ms Dacey : I think that the route that you are thinking of had already been advertised, but can I take it on notice? I don't want to give you the wrong advice. And that was part of the thinking: this was a real route, they were selling tickets on it, it was announced to start on X date, so we had a reference point. And, of course, Rex had no prior knowledge of the TANS program.

Senator WATT: The announcement was made that there would be about 800,000 of these discounted fares made available. There were a number of destinations that were initially announced as benefiting from this program. At that first announcement, did you have in mind a particular allocation of fares for particular destinations?

Ms Dacey : There were a number of initial regions that were identified, and we've gone over that process with you. Then, in the broadest possible terms, we were working on rough market shares before the announcement as a basis for starting the notional allocation and negotiations.

Senator WATT: So when the announcement was first made, you did essentially allocate a certain number of fares for—it might be Sydney to Cairns, a certain number of fares for Sydney to Brisbane or Darwin, or wherever it might have been. That is how it was based?

Ms Dacey : That's right. And you might recall that we talked at Senate estimates last time about how we were looking to keep as much competitive tension in the negotiations as possible to get over the 800,000 number. So, whilst we had an initial notional split, we were looking to maximise the number of fares that we could offer.

Senator WATT: Could you, on notice, advise the estimate of the discounted fares that was initially proposed for each route?

Ms Dacey : Can I be clear: is that the proposed number of discounted fares—not the dollar value?

Senator WATT: Yes.

Ms Dacey : That's fine. We'll take it on notice.

Senator WATT: Obviously there were a number of additional routes added to this program after the initial announcement. That must have reduced the number of discounted fares available for some of the previously announced routes?

Ms Dacey : I think we need to be careful about language here. There are regions and then there are routes. I think last time you and I had a conversation about regions, as well. There were 13 regions. That became 15 regions in that immediate aftermath, and that number has been stable ever since. So there's been no change to the number of regions. The number of routes that sit underneath is a much bigger number because you can have Melbourne-Cairns, Sydney-Cairns, Canberra-Cairns—no, you can't have Canberra-Cairns. But you know what I mean: you can have lots of different routes that sit under a regional grouping, so it was the routes that we then got into the detailed negotiation over.

Senator WATT: Just to be clear then, what we were just talking about, the initial estimate of—

Ms Dacey : Regions.

Senator WATT: Okay—so when the 800,000 was announced, what was calculated by the department was a rough estimate of the number of discounted fares that would be offered for a particular region?

Ms Dacey : Correct.

Senator WATT: As opposed to a route?

Ms Dacey : A specific route.

Senator WATT: So were you bundling together all of the discounted fares that would go into Cairns or Darwin, regardless of where they had come from?

Ms Dacey : That's right, and then we were working through with the airlines what their fleets could do, what their networks could do, and how you would optimise the connectivity.

Senator WATT: So you don't have any figures as to what the original estimate was for particular routes?

Ms Dacey : Correct.

Senator WATT: But you do for particular regions?

Ms Dacey : Correct. That's the bit that I thought I was taking on notice for you, just to be clear.

Senator WATT: Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. I suppose my question then is: once those additional routes were added—

Ms Dacey : Regions.

Senator WATT: or perhaps even regions, did that reduce the number of fares that would be discounted for some of the originally announced regions?

Ms Dacey : In theory it's a zero sum game, but remember that we were trying to get above our 800,000, so there would have been some ons and offs.

Senator WATT: Do you have any figures for what the ultimate allocation by region is expected to be?

Ms Dacey : Can I take it on notice and see what we can provide you? Now that the contracts are done we can give you actuals. We'll give you what our starting position was. The variable in there, of course, is what we've been able to negotiate.

Senator WATT: Yes. What I'm trying to establish is what was the net impact on some regions of adding additional regions.

Ms Dacey : I'm hopeful, and I don't know, that we were able to achieve that baseline and better for all, but I just need to take it on notice.

Senator WATT: I acknowledge that it may be the case that because you've done more than 800,000 no region has lost out, but I'd just be interested to know those figures.

Ms Dacey : Just to be clear, we'll do everything on the regions basis, because that's the bit that is less commercially sensitive.

Senator WATT: Yes, sure. Was Perth ever considered for this program?

Ms Dacey : No. Perth is covered under a variety of RANS and DANS routes, not TANS

Senator WATT: Why not this program.

Ms Dacey : I think that would be a question for our Austrade colleagues.

Ms Ralston : As we've explained at estimates previously, the TANS logic was based on driving visitation and travellers to regions that have been most heavily hit by the loss of international visitors and tourists. There were a number of factors we took into account in that, but I think capital cities are those that, in terms of the numbers, weren't over and above the national averages on that front. We had to draw a line at a certain point in time. The capital cities were excluded partly also because, as Ms Dacey said, they've been supported through the DANS programs and through a range of other measures to drive activity in those locations. The other point is that they all have fairly diverse economies, so the international tourism impact is less in the capital cities than in many of the regional areas that are supported by the program.

Senator WATT: The fact that Perth is supported by other programs would probably apply to some of the other destinations and regions that are supported by this program, wouldn't it?

Ms Dacey : There is, but Ms Quigley can confirm that if you're being supported by TANS—those specific flights—

Ms Quigley : That's right; you'll come off DANS and RANS. The DANS and RANS are a minimum connectivity program. While we're providing funds for a tourism based activity we're taking them out of that program, so they're only in one. If the borders were to close or there were to be an issue with that service, there is a trigger to bring them back into DANS and RANS if there was a requirement. They're in one or the other. They're not in both.

Senator WATT: Right, okay. Consumers can't book these discounted fares, through travel agents, can they? They've got to be booked through the airline.

Ms Quigley : No, they can be booked through a travel agent. Like any normal sale in an airline, they're distributed through multiple mechanisms. Travel agents would have access to some, and it would depend on the airline arrangements with the travel agent as to how much.

Ms Ralston : There's also been a lot of effort to encourage consumers to use travel agents. We obviously want to try and support the full supply chain of the tourism sector. Some of the marketing campaign that Tourism Australia and others are running is about encouraging people to use travel agents to book their flight, to book accommodation when they get to their destination and to take advantage of some of the experiences at those locations. We're trying to encourage investment in the entire experience.

Senator WATT: Have you monitored the proportion of these fares that have been sold directly through the airlines and the proportion that have been sold through travel agents?

Ms Quigley : That will be a part of our reporting requirements from airlines. We don't have visibility of that yet, but it will be something that we gather through the course of the program.

Senator WATT: Were there any destinations which the department initially planned to include in TANS but were removed prior to the announcement?

Ms Dacey : The department didn't have a view. Our primary input was the aviation capability and where planes and networks could get to. We worked in close consultation with our Austrade colleagues, but, to my knowledge, the answer is no.

Ms Ralston : From our point of view, too, there was never a number on a list or a fixed number. We looked at the datasets. We looked at those regions most heavily hit by the loss of international visitors; we looked at the economic dependence of particular regions on tourism, in terms of the total mix of jobs in those regions; we looked at those regions most heavily dependent on aviation; and we looked at seasonality. There was a big list of those things. Where you draw the line on those things is a matter for government; the whole country has been affected by the loss of our international visitors. We started to look at where the national averages are and focus on those regions most heavily hit. It was an ongoing conversation and process.

Senator WATT: On your point about travel agents, I understand that we've received evidence from some travel agents who said that they could book for customers under this program but that they didn't receive any financial benefit, because they had to use the airlines' websites. So they received no commission or support from this program. Is that correct, from your point of view?

Ms Dacey : I don't think we would have made any provision for commissions to travel agents in our contracts with the airlines, so intuitively that seems to be a possible outcome. I'm not an expert in travel agents.

Senator WATT: So this program didn't really offer any financial support to travel agents?

Ms Dacey : I think other measures were designed to support travel agents. Again, I'm speaking outside of my remit.

Ms Ralston : There are separate measures, obviously. There were particular measures to support travel agents. Certainly, there was encouragement, though, in terms of the marketing campaigns, to use travel agents to book accommodation. It's very hard to tie consumers, individuals, to particular choices about their holidays or experiences. We can't direct people to do those sorts of things. But there was great encouragement to take it up and support all parts of the sector. It's been part of the Tourism Australia marketing campaign to encourage the use of those things.

CHAIR: Senator Davey.

Senator DAVEY: I've just got a couple of follow-up questions, and they may need to be taken on notice. It's all included in the work you're going to provide to Senator Watt—reports on regions and where people are going. I understand that 80 per cent of the tickets have been sold, so I'm interested to know what regions they're going to. Were many of those tickets were sold at the beginning of the announcement, when there were fewer regions, or did the announcement of the extra regions drive further uptake of the subsidised tickets? Do you have any line of sight on that at the moment?

Ms Quigley : The announcement around the regions occurred before the commencement of the program. When we started the program on 1 April, it included all 15 regions. There was no deviation within the program construct.

Ms Dacey : The stats on the initial sales in the first 24 to 72 hours were extraordinary. There was very, very high uptake from very early in the program—

Ms Quigley : That's right.

Ms Dacey : reflecting, we think, pent-up travel demand.

Senator DAVEY: Desperation to get out!

Ms Dacey : And to see family, I think.

Senator DAVEY: Can you also have a look at what percentage of ticket sales were interstate as opposed to intrastate, because we've heard evidence this morning about travel hesitancy. People are fearful of crossing state borders in case they get caught by another snap lockdown. We have heard that the shorter, more focused lockdowns might be helping to alleviate some of that hesitancy, but it would be interesting to see if people are going between states through this program or if they're just taking advantage of going to a region from their closest capital city.

Ms Quigley : One of the principles of TANS is that it has to be an interstate flight and, where there's no alternative, direct. There's only one flight within the TANS program which doesn't have a direct alternative, and that's to King Island. We don't have any intrastate flights within the TANS program except for that one. You'd have to look at the different programs. RANS is the intrastate program and TANS is the interstate program.

Ms Dacey : I think you meant to say Kangaroo Island.

Ms Quigley : Sorry. Yes, Kangaroo Island.

Senator DAVEY: Sorry, Kangaroo Island, yes. Forgive me! I thought Merimbula was also a region that was open to TANS and I didn't think you could get there from anywhere but Sydney. That would be intrastate.

Ms Dacey : No. Just to clarify, Merimbula is one of the regions, but there are flights from Melbourne. There are no flights within New South Wales to Merimbula covered by TANS.

Senator DAVEY: Thank you for clarifying that. Thanks, Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Senator Davey. I have a few more questions, then maybe you'll be one of the first witnesses to get out of a COVID committee hearing ahead of a deadline! I'll just put that on the table. I think it was earlier in your evidence, Ms Dacey—I'm just trying to find where I wrote it down—that you said you are in frequent contact with Health over the vaccine rollout, or the department is. Could you explain what that looks like and what that is?

Ms Dacey : As we've discussed a couple of times with you in the context of bringing Australians home, we look after the international aviation aspects as well. There is a very clear need to integrate what the Department of Health is doing, what ABF is doing, what Home Affairs is doing, what DFAT is doing, and what PM&C and we are doing. As part of that, I, personally, participate in twice-weekly deputy secretary meetings. My colleague Mr Wood participates in SES band 2 meetings, and other colleagues in the room participate with those groups of agencies at their levels as well.

CHAIR: Focused on international aviation for you?

Ms Dacey : That's our area of policy responsibility. We do the passenger caps. We do some of the technical aviation things. But all of those things work together. This committee has previously had all of us here together at the one time to give evidence about the different aspects of it, and the vaccine rollout is part of that discussion.

CHAIR: Okay. So the vaccine rollout comes up at those meetings, but it's as part of a broader discussion about managing COVID generally?

Ms Dacey : That's right. No-one's seeking my medical expertise.

CHAIR: I presume, in terms of the vaccine rollout, the department does have a role in terms of logistics and transport?

Ms Dacey : The Department of Health is primarily responsible for all of the logistics stuff, but of course we provided them with contacts that we have in the freight and logistics supply chain. But it is their responsibility, yes.

CHAIR: Okay, so you have an advisory role on the logistics?

Ms Dacey : No, I think we went as far as giving them a couple of names that they could start having conversations with. They've got a whole team.

CHAIR: Okay, so not advice, just, 'Here's some people you can to talk to about how to get it done.'

Ms Dacey : Yes, the NCOs of the companies that we—

CHAIR: Linfox and things like that.

Ms Dacey : Yes.

CHAIR: Okay. With the decision to cease flights from India, that comes through your department as your responsibility?

Ms Dacey : We enact it, that's right. We have the regulatory power to set those limits, yes.

CHAIR: So when did you first become aware of that? Do you provide advice to national cabinet about that, or are you just told, once a decision is taken at national cabinet, that that is the decision?

Ms Dacey : The process of advising the national cabinet involves all of those agencies that I just mentioned to you. In some ways we do just take the nat cab decision and implement it, but of course we have a voice in the process of shaping up advice through to national cabinet. Apart from the biosecurity orders, which are health orders, which are a different thing altogether, the implementation through the passenger caps is ours to implement. We get involved at that implementation phase.

CHAIR: And you do that through your normal arrangements—

Ms Dacey : Regulations.

CHAIR: and regulations and relationships.

Ms Dacey : That's right. The only thing I would say is that there's nothing normal about it in terms of—

CHAIR: Well, existing relationships.

Ms Dacey : That's right. In terms of the environment we are in now, absolutely, yes, we use our existing arrangements.

CHAIR: I was listening to Mark McGowan the other day when they had the matter in quarantine, and he mentioned that national cabinet had made a decision about a three-day pause. If you were coming indirectly from a country with significant levels of COVID, you would have a three-day layover, or you had to stay three days, I think, in a connecting country and pass a COVID test before onboarding to Australia. But he wasn't sure whether that was actually being enacted. That was the comment he made. That was a decision taken, but I'm not sure whether it's been enacted. So whose responsibility would that be?

Ms Dacey : I think anything that involves telling other governments what they can and can't do with passengers who may be transiting through their country is clearly a complex matter. National cabinet were exploring a range of options. You'll have to forgive me; I'm not sure that that was a decision actually taken by the national cabinet. We are certainly enacting some of the national cabinet decisions. I've just got the last national cabinet communique, from last Friday, and the matters that were agreed by national cabinet were a reduction in the number of facilitated flights into Howard Springs until the rate of positive cases has decreased, a reduction by approximately 30 per cent in passenger numbers for Australians returning home on government facilitated flights and a 30 per cent reduction in commercial flights. Those were the three things that were in the national cabinet announcement of 22 April. There were a lot of other ideas being discussed in the national cabinet room. For that one in particular, about what other options or what other layers of protection might be available for passengers transiting, I think further work is going on.

CHAIR: Okay. So you're saying you don't think there was a decision around that—that there be some pause before onboarding?

Ms Dacey : I'm just going—

CHAIR: That was before, I think. I think he made those comments before the—

Ms Dacey : Nat cab?

CHAIR: Yes, the latest nat cab.

Ms Dacey : That's right. I wasn't in the room, but I saw bits of the press conference, the way you did. What I just read out to you was from the national cabinet communique. In that communique, just continuing on, it says national cabinet was seeking further advice from the Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation 'regarding the benefits of having aircrew vaccinated as a priority cohort'. It also says:

The Commonwealth will seek Rapid Antigen Testing … for Australians returning on direct flights from high risk countries.

Of course, since then, direct flights from India have been paused till 15 May.

CHAIR: Alright. So either Premier McGowan has got it wrong or it wasn't a documented decision and he thought it must have been?

Ms Dacey : I think that would have been his preference. Actually, let me withdraw that statement. I don't know. It's not my business to talk for Premier Mark McGowan.

CHAIR: Okay. But you have not enacted any decision about requiring a layover of any period before people onboard to Australia through the arrangements that existed prior to the last national cabinet?

Ms Dacey : Yes.

CHAIR: You were not aware of them.

Ms Dacey : Yes, and we would not be able to do that. The air navigation regulations that we use to manage the passenger caps would not allow us to put conditions on.

CHAIR: Any requirement on them—

Ms Dacey : That's right.

CHAIR: other than that you must have a clear COVID test.

Ms Dacey : That's enacted by a different mechanism, but we do have that in place.

CHAIR: Alright. In your discussions with airlines and other stakeholders, have you had any feedback around quarantine and the capacity for quarantine in the country? Does that come across your desk?

Ms Dacey : Quarantine is a proxy for the caps, and so we have lots of discussions with airlines about the caps but not specifically about quarantine. But the two are mirror images of each other, right.

CHAIR: What is the feedback you're getting from the airlines on the caps?

Ms Dacey : I think that they are very much looking forward to the day that passenger caps are not a reality anymore. We continue to see a number of airlines that continue to fly to Australia commercially, even with the caps. Mr Wood might have a number there—I think it's in the order of 30 airlines; I don't know. I think, like most airlines around the world, they just want the situation to start to normalise and stabilise, but we're just a long way from that.

CHAIR: So they raise it, in terms of caps; they prefer no caps. Have there been any requests, through you and your relationships, around any kind of national quarantine plan that would allow you to take more people in?

Ms Dacey : Not to us. I don't think the airlines would talk to us about that. They talk about their flights and their passenger numbers.

CHAIR: And that's about the ability to transport more people?

Ms Dacey : Yes.

CHAIR: I've got a couple of questions for Austrade. They go back to the TANS program. Am I right in thinking that you were involved in ranking the regions? Is that right?

Ms Ralston : As to 'ranking'—

CHAIR: Or involved—

Ms Ralston : [inaudible] putting together the data which pointed to which regions we should be considering.

CHAIR: So that was your area of responsibility?

Ms Ralston : Yes, definitely.

CHAIR: Were there any other regions which ranked higher in your data than the regions that were announced?

Ms Ralston : We didn't actually do a single ranking. There were four datasets we used, and we looked at all of them, and then we looked at a combination of those factors, and then we looked at things like how it interacted with other programs, like the DANS, or whether there was an airport actually proximate to the locations that needed support. So the four datasets were put together in various looks at it, but there was no single listing.

CHAIR: There wasn't a ranking that you—

Ms Ralston : There's never been a single ranking of 1, 2—

CHAIR: So how many did you provide? How many were involved in the information you sent?

Ms Ralston : We provided advice on all of the data—all the elements. So we looked at all of the regions that have been affected by the loss of international visitations. We then looked at lists of those that were most economically dependent on tourism and had the highest number of jobs. We looked at another list which had the factors around where there's aviation dependence to get to those regions. Then we looked at seasonality factors. So there were four or five different combinations. There has never been a single process. We drew some lines and then we said: 'If we are trying to help those regions most in pain and most in need of support,' and we looked at the national averages and then we looked at the lines above the national average. It was a combination of factors. If we look at some of the factors of the regions that have been supported, like Cairns or Lasseter or Alice Springs, Lasseter—which is around Uluru—clearly ranks as one of the regions in the country most affected by a dependence on international. It is about 59 per cent compared to others. It's significantly higher than the others. But then, if you put that together with the numbers of people and seasonality and other factors, it changes. So the rankings all change, depending on how you look at the factors.

CHAIR: So you can't tell me that you provided a list—a combined analysis—of 50 regions or something like that?

Ms Ralston : No. There would have been lists with 40 or 50 types of things on them, but they would have been different lists. There were combinations of lists. So I guess the questions are: where do you draw the lines and what do you focus on? But there was not a single list.

CHAIR: Can ask it another way: how many regions did you assess in your methodology?

Ms Ralston : There are 77 tourist regions that we look at as part of Tourism Research Australia, which is a part of Austrade—our datasets. There is the National Visitor Survey that we capture regularly. It looks at 77 tourism regions. So we've looked at all of those regions and they've all been on lists, and we've looked at—

CHAIR: So all of them were looked at?

Ms Ralston : Yes.

CHAIR: They were all subjected to—

Ms Ralston : Consideration against those factors—

CHAIR: Okay.

Ms Ralston : We then looked at national averages. We looked at those which had period-of-time impacts. This program was set up over the period April to September, so we very much looked at that window to see which of those regions were suffering most in that window.

CHAIR: And all of that information went to government and then it chose the 17 regions?

Ms Ralston : It was all part of the decision process—that's right.

CHAIR: Or did it go to Infrastructure? And then did you rank them?

Ms Dacey : No.

CHAIR: Nobody ranked them?

Ms Ralston : Advice went to government and government made decisions.

CHAIR: Is there any cross-agency group looking at TANS and how it's rolling out?

Ms Ralston : We and Tourism Australia look at the program fairly regularly together, and—

CHAIR: So it's Infrastructure, Austrade, Tourism Australia?

Ms Ralston : That's right.

CHAIR: Will it be evaluated? I've heard the government say that every dollar spent on an airfare means $10 spent at the destination. I'm wondering what the evidence base is for that. Is that something Austrade would do?

Ms Ralston : That's not a number that has come from Austrade. It was drawn from a speech of Jayne Hrdlicka, the former CEO of Virgin, and others. It's not a number that Austrade has produced, examined or analysed. We do some modelling and every year we release what we think the impact of tourism is. That was about the aviation impact. We look at the total tourism impact. We don't do modelling that is comparable.

We plan to look at the impact of this. Obviously the lead indicator is people taking up flights. That's a great example of confidence, which we're trying to achieve—people travelling and moving. We've built questions into our national visitors survey. We'll start to get results on what people spend at the destination and what they do. That data will appear during the program. We do that quarterly at the moment, so we won't have some data on that for some time.

CHAIR: Alright. So at the moment you couldn't give for every dollar spent on this program how much it has delivered on the ground?

Ms Ralston : Certainly Austrade has never modelled what every dollar spent on aviation has an impact on. We look at tourism. I think we say that for every dollar spent in tourism, which is more than aviation, there's an 80 per cent benefit to the economy over and above that. We do that annually. The 80 cents in the dollar is a pretty constant number—it changes to 81 and 82. It's an annual thing we do, but it's not comparable to that point.

CHAIR: So it's not a number you've briefed up or provided to government?

Ms Ralston : No.

CHAIR: But they are using it anyway. Are you involved in evaluating the program?

Ms Dacey : Yes. I think we'll sit alongside our Austrade colleagues.

CHAIR: Is it tracking as you expected or is it tracking faster?

Ms Dacey : We think it has gone pretty quickly.

CHAIR: So about 640,000 have sold and there are some left.

Ms Dacey : Remember that travel can happen through to September, so that's why the evaluation needs to have a little bit of time. People haven't necessarily travelled yet.

CHAIR: Mr Dymowski, you said you had managed to negotiate about a five per cent increase. Is that about 40,000?

Ms Dacey : Just under. We're saying 'just under' because we don't necessarily—

CHAIR: As part of the contract?

Ms Dacey : We were just trying to give you an order of magnitude.

CHAIR: Is there a particular reason why the remaining tickets haven't sold? Is there anywhere in particular—

Ms Dacey : I'll take it on notice. Part of the design of the program is that, if we're seeing demand a bit soft in some areas, we might have a look at it. We're conscious that moving things around might have some unintended consequences.

CHAIR: So it remains. You're not going to add any more regions in though?

Ms Dacey : That's not my—

Ms Ralston : Not at this stage, no.

CHAIR: So you're happy with the regions that have been announced and there are 160,000 tickets to be used by September. You're not worried about that?

Ms Dacey : Given that we're four weeks into the program and 80 per cent are sold, we think that's pretty good. Tickets are on sale until 31 July. We are not overly concerned.

My colleague very helpfully pointed out to me the dot point you were looking at in terms of the third-country testing. It said:

National Cabinet agreed to place additional restrictions on Australian citizens and permanent residents seeking to enter Australia from high risk countries which are experiencing rapidly increasing COVID-19 outbreaks. The Commonwealth will work to establish a list of high risk countries.

Work about what the high-risk countries are is going on. That's being led by the CMO. There are two dot points under that. It says:

Going forward:

Anyone entering Australia who has been in a high risk country in the last 14 days before entering Australia and is transiting through a third country will need to return a negative PCR test 72 hours prior to entering Australia from the final point of embarkation.

The Commonwealth will further restrict outbound travel exemptions …

I think it is the first dot point that you were talking about.

CHAIR: It is, yes. What date was that?

Ms Dacey : The 22nd. I started reading too low down on the thing.

CHAIR: The 22nd of—

Ms Dacey : April. That was in the national cabinet media statement. That work for further advising the national cabinet—it says 'the Commonwealth will work to establish'—is the work that's going on with officials.

CHAIR: Okay. Is it your area that's doing that? Who does that?

Ms Dacey : We have the airline part of it. These are health matters primarily.

CHAIR: Wasn't your earlier evidence that you couldn't do that?

Ms Dacey : From an airline point of view, I can't force a sovereign country to do things. Those are the complexities that we across government are trying to work through.

CHAIR: Thank you very much for attending today's proceedings. I thank all witnesses who have given evidence today. Please provide answers to questions taken on notice by 12 May. It's a busy week. Thank you.

Committee adjourned at 13:21