PARLIAMENTARY DEPARTMENTS

In Attendance

Senator the Hon John Hogg, President of the Senate

Department of the Senate:

Dr Rosemary Laing, Clerk of the Senate

Mr Richard Pye, Deputy Clerk of the Senate

Mr Chris Reid, Clerk Assistant (Table)

Ms Maureen Weeks, Clerk Assistant (Procedure)

Mr Brien Hallett, Usher of the Black Rod

Mr Simon Harvey, Director Parliamentary Education Office

Ms Michelle Crowther, Chief Financial Officer

Parliamentary Budget Office

Mr Phil Bowen, Parliamentary Budget Officer

Mr Tim Pyne, First Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer

Mr Colin Brown, First Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer

Mr Paul Gardiner, Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer

Mr Tony McDonald, Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer

Ms Karen Williams, Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer

Mr Gareth Tunks, Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer

Department of Parliamentary Services

Ms Carol Mills, Secretary

Dr Dianne Heriot, Parliamentarian Librarian

Ms Eija Seittenranta, Chief Information Officer

Mr Neil Skill, First Assistant Secretary, Building Management Division

Mr Steve McCauley, Assistant Secretary, ICT Infrastructure Services Branch

Mr Lou Nulley, Assistant Secretary, ICT Strategy, Planning and Applications Branch

Ms Karen Greening, Assistant Secretary, Content Management Branch

Committee met at 0 9.03

CHAIR ( Senator Bernardi ): I declare open this meeting of the Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee. Today the committee will begin its examination of the budget estimates for the parliamentary departments, the Prime Minister and Cabinet portfolio, the Finance portfolio, and cross-portfolio Indigenous matters. The committee may also examine the annual reports of the departments and agencies appearing before it. The committee is due to report to the Senate on 24 June 2014 and has fixed 11 July 2014 as the date for the return of answers to questions taken on notice. The committee's proceedings will begin today with the parliamentary departments and then proceed to the agencies of the Prime Minister and Cabinet portfolio, excluding agencies relating to Indigenous matters, which will be examined on Friday at the cross-portfolio hearing. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet will be examined tomorrow.

Under standing order 26, the committee must take all evidence in public session. This includes answers to questions on notice. I remind all witnesses that in giving evidence to the committee they are protected by parliamentary privilege. It is unlawful for anyone to threaten or disadvantage a witness on account of evidence given to the committee, and such action may be treated by the Senate as a contempt. It is also contempt to give false or misleading evidence to a committee. The Senate by resolution in 1999 endorsed the following test of relevance of questions at Estimates hearings. Any questions going to the operations or financial positions of the departments and agencies which are seeking funds in the estimates are relevant questions for the purpose of estimates hearings. I remind officers that the Senate has resolved there are no areas in connection with the expenditure of public funds where any person has a discretion to withhold details or explanations from the parliament or its committees, unless the parliament has expressly provided otherwise.

The Senate has resolved also that an officer of a department of the Commonwealth shall not be asked to give opinions on matters of policy, and shall be given reasonable opportunity to refer questions asked of the officer to superior officers or to a minister. This resolution prohibits only questions asking for opinions on matters of policy and does not preclude questions asking for explanations of policies or factual questions about when and how policies were adopted. I particularly draw the attention of witnesses to an order of the Senate of 13 May 2009 specifying the process by which a claim of public interest immunity should be raised.

The extract read as follows—

Public interest immunity claims

That the Senate—

(a) notes that ministers and officers have continued to refuse to provide information to Senate committees without properly raising claims of public interest immunity as required by past resolutions of the Senate;

(b) reaffirms the principles of past resolutions of the Senate by this order, to provide ministers and officers with guidance as to the proper process for raising public interest immunity claims and to consolidate those past resolutions of the Senate;

(c) orders that the following operate as an order of continuing effect:

(1) If:

   (a) a Senate committee, or a senator in the course of proceedings of a committee, requests information or a document from a Commonwealth department or agency; and

   (b) an officer of the department or agency to whom the request is directed believes that it may not be in the public interest to disclose the information or document to the committee, the officer shall state to the committee the ground on which the officer believes that it may not be in the public interest to disclose the information or document to the committee, and specify the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or document.

(2) If, after receiving the officer’s statement under paragraph (1), the committee or the senator requests the officer to refer the question of the disclosure of the information or document to a responsible minister, the officer shall refer that question to the minister.

(3) If a minister, on a reference by an officer under paragraph (2), concludes that it would not be in the public interest to disclose the information or document to the committee, the minister shall provide to the committee a statement of the ground for that conclusion, specifying the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or document.

(4) A minister, in a statement under paragraph (3), shall indicate whether the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or document to the committee could result only from the publication of the information or document by the committee, or could result, equally or in part, from the disclosure of the information or document to the committee as in camera evidence.

(5) If, after considering a statement by a minister provided under paragraph (3), the committee concludes that the statement does not sufficiently justify the withholding of the information or document from the committee, the committee shall report the matter to the Senate.

(6) A decision by a committee not to report a matter to the Senate under paragraph (5) does not prevent a senator from raising the matter in the Senate in accordance with other procedures of the Senate.

(7) A statement that information or a document is not published, or is confidential, or consists of advice to, or internal deliberations of, government, in the absence of specification of the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or document, is not a statement that meets the requirements of paragraph (I) or (4).

(8) If a minister concludes that a statement under paragraph (3) should more appropriately be made by the head of an agency, by reason of the independence of that agency from ministerial direction or control, the minister shall inform the committee of that conclusion and the reason for that conclusion, and shall refer the matter to the head of the agency, who shall then be required to provide a statement in accordance with paragraph (3).

(Extract, Senate Standing Orders, pp 124-125)

Witnesses are specifically reminded that a statement that information or a document is confidential or consists of advice to government is not a statement that meets the requirements of the 2009 order. Instead, witnesses are required to provide some specific indication of the harm to the public interest that could result from the disclosure of the information or the document. Officers are requested to keep opening statements brief or to seek to incorporate longer statements into the Hansard.