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Select Committee into Jobs for the Future in Regional Areas
10/10/2019

LANYON, Ms Diane, General Manager, Ecosure Pty Ltd

O'GRADY, Mr Michael, Regional Project Coordinator, Ecosure Pty Ltd

ACTING CHAIR: Welcome. Information on parliamentary privilege and the protection of witnesses and evidence has been provided to you. The committee has your written submission. I invite you to make a brief opening statement, and then we'll ask you some questions.

Ms Lanyon : Good morning, and thank you for the opportunity to present to the committee. I am the general manager of Ecosure. I have been in this position for three years, and I have worked for the business for eight years. I am a senior environmental scientist with over 20 years in the environment industry, and I have lived and worked in regional Queensland for the last 10 years.

Ecosure is one of Australia's largest privately owned providers of ecological services. Over the last 25 years Ecosure has developed into a multidisciplinary environmental consultancy, focusing on three pillars of excellence—the first being ecological restoration, the second being human wildlife conflict management and the third being environmental services. We have offices in Adelaide, Brisbane, Coffs Harbour, Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, Newcastle, Rockhampton and Townsville. We have a turnover of $10 million per annum and are proud employers of more than 100 environmental specialists, offering practical environmental solutions to a wide range of ecological issues. We are company of passionate people with a goal to improve the ecosystems of 100 million hectares and 1,000 islands by 2030.

Having scanned the submissions, we note that the majority come from peak industry bodies and unions, not-for-profits, universities, state government departments and local government councils and shires. There are perhaps only three or four other submissions that have come from the private industry. I would like to raise this with the members of the select committee as a concern as to whether further consultation with the private industry should or could be considered.

Of our 100 employees, we have around 30 based in various regional offices. We believe there are significant opportunities for further development of jobs in regional areas. However, as I said during my chat with some of you today, one of the biggest issues we have is finding qualified people. We have a lot of graduates that apply for roles with our business, but getting mid-level and senior-level ecologists and environmental scientists has proven to be extremely difficult, particularly in the last two years—and that includes Brisbane, which is a major capital city. The competition with the much-higher-paid mining sector and more secure local and state government jobs has been one of the main factors. The second factor is attracting people away from the larger city based areas to regional areas, and finding and keeping those suitably qualified people in regional areas is difficult.

In our written submission we raise a total of 11 recommendations. I will try and conglomerate these in my statement today. We would love the Senate to consider developing a centre of excellence in ecological restoration. We propose that this could be based in a regional area such as Gladstone or Townsville. We believe it should promote the new and emerging industries of ecological restoration and reef restoration, and reinvigorate the mine rehabilitation industry. It could possibly be a centre for training and transitioning our mining workers into some of these industries. It could be a centre for exporting our Australian expertise in this area to other countries and for promoting Australia as a leader in ecological restoration. It could also support vocational training in conservation land management to ensure that works are delivered on grounds that are ecologically and economically efficient, which is currently one of our problems. Investment by the government in Australia's natural areas as if they were infrastructure could and should be considered. This is, after all, the infrastructure of our future. Connecting landscapes on a local and national scale is essential for building resilience in our ecosystems and communities in the face of a changing climate.

Future jobs in regional Australia do not need to be based on the current trajectory of the resource sector. There are other industries, as we have demonstrated in our written submission, and supporting this into the future as well as a well-considered transition plan is essential for creating future jobs in regional Australia.

ACTING CHAIR: Thank you very much for that opening statement and for your lovely, detailed submission. Senator Rennick.

Senator RENNICK: Thanks, Senator Waters. How many mine sites are you aware of that have been closed but not rehabilitated? Are there still government bonds on those? Do you monitor all of that sort of information?

Ms Lanyon : Yes. There are over 15,000 mines that are closed and currently not rehabilitated throughout Queensland. That's quite a large number—

Senator RENNICK: Of those 15,000 mines, how many have outstanding government environmental bonds? You may not know.

Ms Lanyon : I wouldn't know the number, but I can come back to you on that, Senator Rennick. I think one of the biggest issues that we have is—and I think we describe this in our written submission—that there are quite a lot of loopholes in those areas in the current legislation.

Senator RENNICK: Could you give me an example?

Ms Lanyon : Yes. If a mine closes down, in order to keep it open and therefore come out of that loophole and keep it running, you just need to have a caretaker.

Senator RENNICK: So it's on care and maintenance, rather than—

Ms Lanyon : It's on care and maintenance, rather than the mine actually being closed and then the focus being on the rehabilitation of that particular mine. Closing that loophole would be probably fairly essential, even if it gives caretaker mode for 12 months—or three years, or something that could be reasonable—and then moves into that transition of actually rehabilitating that particular site. Otherwise, we'll continue to have these large holes all throughout the landscape.

Senator RENNICK: Do you lobby the state government? It's the state government that deals with those rehabilitation—

Ms Lanyon : Yes. We've actually gone and visited the state government on this. To me, it seems like it's one of those closed coffers. It's one of those things where we've had really a lot of difficulty in even getting some answers as to when, where and how—how will those bonds be released? That, to me, is a problem. But we're not a lobbyist sort of business.

Senator RENNICK: In regard to land management, which is a passion of mine, is there too much focus on preserving trees at the cost of not enough ground cover, such as grass? I know, for example, on our farm out in western Queensland and in the whole area—Charleville to mulga country—basically we need to maintain that. If that just grows and grows and grows, it sucks the ground dry and kills the grass. Then the ground seals, and every time it rains the water just runs off the top—it runs horizontally and not vertically. So I'd like to see more grass brought back, because I know that, when we first moved out there, there was a lot of open grass cover. If you go back to Thomas Mitchell and his writings in the 1850s, when he went up what is today the old Mitchell Highway, he spoke about open grasslands. I get very frustrated when we talk about trees, but it's really that biodiversity and the importance of groundcover and grass in the ground so that, when it rains, it traps the moisture and then the ground can basically rejuvenate through grass. Is that something you look at as well?

Ms Lanyon : Yes, definitely. I guess that's one of the major parts of our business. Ecological restoration doesn't just look at planting trees. Our principal restoration ecologist, Jen Ford, is actually presenting at the moment to the Society for Ecological Restoration in South Africa. From her perspective, when you're restoring an ecosystem, you are restoring it to what its reference site was. For example, if you're saying that, naturally, grasslands used to be in those areas, then that is what you are trying to do. Ecological restoration isn't for building forest, necessarily; it is for rehabilitating that site to what it formerly was or to what its reference site was.

I think there has been a real focus in the government on trees and planting trees, and that's not necessarily always done in the most appropriate ways, which then gives the industry a bit of a negative reputation because you're not seeing the really great outcome that you would like to see, which is: 'Hey, we've planted trees. It's been successful. They've been watered. They've been well looked after.' So that maintenance process for trees is actually quite rigorous. The techniques that we use as a business are called assisted regeneration, which means that you're using the natural seed bank to allow natives to come back, and it's a different process from just planting trees.

Senator RENNICK: Do you have any views on lantana? I know that around Mount Glorious and those places it's out of control.

Ms Lanyon : It's out of control!

Senator RENNICK: Yes. It probably is in all of Queensland. What can we do about that? It just does my head in, seeing all that lantana. A lot of it is in national parks, and I just think that the reason we lock this stuff up is so that we can preserve it and yet we don't do anything about this feral weed that's out of control.

Ms Lanyon : I guess that's part of the point in the government looking towards investing in our natural capital or our natural infrastructure. If we were investing in those parks and areas, we could probably get on top of that. But there is not enough of that investment that allows us to get on top of it. We are currently in Shoalwater Bay, which is a defence training area. So we do quite a lot of work on defence sites. That is an absolutely massive site. We have two or three teams. The bay area is the size of eight Singapores.

Mr O'Grady : It's 500,000 hectares.

Ms Lanyon : So it's pretty large. We have a small team trying to manage lantana and manage the fact that there are some really beautiful and ecologically significant areas in Shoalwater Bay. It's a bit of a secret, hidden gem, but it's probably one of the best areas of land south of the Daintree in terms of how well it's been looked after. In some senses, Defence do a really amazing job. Will we ever get on top of lantana? It's a question of whether we want to spend that money and invest in getting the land right.

ACTING CHAIR: Just on the mining rehabilitation potential for employment, particularly for those who might currently be employed in the mines as we see global trends changing and those jobs already being lost, we want to try to find jobs that match their skill sets and ideally are not too disruptive. In your submission you mentioned that 10 years ago there was a strong mining rehab industry. You mentioned that thanks to the loopholes that we are all aware of now, sadly, mines can essentially avoid their rehabilitation obligations. If those loopholes were closed, I am interested in the job potential that you would see in mining rehabilitation, maybe reflecting on what the jobs were like 10 years ago when there was a bit more of a focus on that.

Ms Lanyon : I probably couldn't give you the numbers, if you are looking for those. But, from my understanding, if you have a booming industry that is working well it's such an easy transition out of that mining industry to where you are moving massive amounts of earth. You are using the same kind of machinery. Having someone who actually understands the land leading that project or whatever it might be seems to me to be the easiest transition. If you have over 15,000 abandoned mines, I reckon there would be quite a few jobs.

ACTING CHAIR: I guess it's like asking, 'How long is a piece of string?' and I guess it depends on the mine site, but do we know roughly the minimum workforce per mine?

Ms Lanyon : I would say most mine sites would need a minimum of 1,000.

ACTING CHAIR: Wow! There is an enormous potential, then.

Ms Lanyon : Yes.

Senator RENNICK: Is that to fill the hole right in, is it?

Ms Lanyon : It would be to shift the land. Some of them have ash dams on them and you can't do anything with that land. So it's about moving the soil around and actually making that a site that could be usable rather than just a big hole in the ground. It wouldn't just be piling it in. Then you could use some of these guys who are ecological restoration specialists. They are our bush regenerators. Incidentally, I don't know if you know this, but it's a really, really successful business. There is the border at the Sunshine Coast and no-one really understands that ecological restoration industry further north. We have an office in Rockhampton. It's weed management. That's what we do. It's actually a very different process. Ecological restoration and weed management are two very, very different things. We're fighting a battle in that sense as well. Being able to move the land around to make sure it's a viable site and then get some of these crews in—they might be the guys who were underground and are now in the sunshine for potentially up to six to eight hours a day—

ACTING CHAIR: And not get black lung disease either. Everybody wins!

Ms Lanyon : They could potentially, having had some training into what it means to be a bush regenerator, come in behind those crews who have just used all that big earthmoving equipment. There is a definite possibility of industry there.

ACTING CHAIR: Is there much training that is required to do that mine rehab work, building on the skills of existing mine workers?

Ms Lanyon : I would say there probably is a little bit—anywhere between a year and 18 months if you're looking to get really good quality bush regenerators who come in behind these guys. When you think about it, you'd probably get the designers in, the planners in and then the engineers in to draw their drawings. Then the guys come in and do their work exactly to the engineer's specifications of what that landscape should look like. Then you've got the bush regenerators coming in. The bush regen guys are probably the ones who need a little bit of time. The issue that we have—and again I've put this in our written submission—is with the conservation and land management certificates III and IV. They're okay, but currently in Queensland they're not necessarily delivered to the best standard they could be. There is one TAFE that delivers it in Northern New South Wales that is really well known for delivering a really excellent quality product, but there's a real review into conservation and land management certificates. That can take 10 weeks if you're doing it intensively, or up to 18 months, depending on if you're doing it while you're doing a job or whatever. Actually being able to do it on land while you're learning is—

ACTING CHAIR: So you can study it whilst you're doing the job already.

Ms Lanyon : Yes.

ACTING CHAIR: That's good to know. In your submission you mentioned briefly using abandoned mine sites for renewable energy. Can you elaborate on that? Is there anywhere where that is already happening successfully?

Ms Lanyon : I don't believe so.

Mr O'Grady : No, not that I know of. There is potential there.

ACTING CHAIR: In what manner? I'm interested to know.

Mr O'Grady : Mine sites are typically large cleared areas. They're not necessarily a big hole in the ground. There's potential for solar farms to be built on them or for geothermal energy.

Ms Lanyon : And it's cleared land; it's land that's cleared already.

ACTING CHAIR: I understand. You mentioned earlier, as well as in your submission, that you thought that there were significant job opportunities in regional areas in your company in this field. Do you have any more specific job figures, for ethological restoration, wildlife corridors and ecological services? Do you have a sense of how big a job creator that is already in this region and what the potential is?

Ms Lanyon : There are a lot of companies doing weed management from Gympie north. If you then just look at people doing ecological restoration from Gympie south, you've got a real stronghold there of up to 150 companies as far as we know and from the research we've done in terms of our competitors and who are out there versus the one-man band, mum and dad, who join in that throng as well. We're pretty sure there are about 10,000 people who work in the industry from southeast Queensland down to Victoria and South Australia. That's quite significant. If we're changing the mind set in the north, in terms of the fact that we're restoring for the future and it's not just weed spraying or burning out your country, then it's a different approach. I imagine there'd be a hell of a lot more. I wouldn't be able to give you those figures in terms of how many, but we're constantly speaking to companies that are doing weed management. Whether they're doing it well or not is the next question, in terms of managing the land like you're talking about, Senator Rennick.

ACTING CHAIR: You mentioned the National Wildlife Corridors Plan, which exists but isn't being enormously funded or operationalised, but, if it were, how job intensive do you think that could be, given that this inquiry is about creating future jobs as opposed to just the environmental benefits of the plan itself? What do you think the federal government could do to really support the work that councils are already doing in that regard, particularly for some of the southern councils that you mentioned?

Ms Lanyon : If we as a government were to invest as much money into creating a wildlife corridor as we invest in our road infrastructure imagine the number of contractors working on road corridors and then imagine a similar number of contractors working on wildlife corridors and restoring those wildlife corridors. I think there would be an amazing potential if we put that same amount of energy and funding towards it.

ACTING CHAIR: I won't be cynical and say, 'Don't hold your breath,' but I think it is a wonderful thing to imagine might happen in the future.

Ms Lanyon : It would be, yes.

ACTING CHAIR: You mentioned including former miners in conservation training.

Ms Lanyon : Yes.

ACTING CHAIR: There may be some resistance to that just from the difference involved in the job, whether it's the actual skills or whether it's the perception of the type of work. How do we address that emotional barrier, if you like? What sorts of transition processes and reskilling opportunities could help address that transition? Do you think there is a decent prospect of former mining employees even wanting to go into conservation work?

Ms Lanyon : I think that that mental block might be perceived. It would probably be more around the fact that the perceived salaries that you can get in the mining sector at this point versus the environmental industry are significantly different. So that might be the first mental barrier, I would say, in people transitioning.

Mr O'Grady : In my experience—and I have met quite a few people on mine sites in the past—they are not necessarily completely against the environment. There are quite a few green people out there working on mine sites, but they are more there for the paycheque. The mental attitude would not be a hard one to overcome, but it's the—

Senator RENNICK: It's the economics.

Mr O'Grady : Yes, it's the economics.

Senator RENNICK: At a mine site you produce exports and produce income, whereas in cleaning up there is an economic benefit long term but it is not necessarily going to put bread on your table that week, sort of thing.

ACTING CHAIR: The Wet Tropics brings in $6 billion a year, and we'll hear from them later today. So I beg to differ in terms of there not being a direct economic benefit. Do you want to talk about the economic benefit of environmental restoration?

Ms Lanyon : Yes, there are of course the long-term benefits but, I think if you are looking even short term, if it is not at that level of 'I'm getting $110,000 and I am a junior and I've just graduated; isn't that amazing?' that's where I agree with Michael in that I don't know how much a level of engagement there actually is in doing the job. The people that we have in our team are so passionate about delivering what they are doing, it is quite amazing.

Senator RENNICK: That's why I asked about the rehabilitation. If you don't do it there and then and it then has to be picked up by the government, it is a cost to the government. I suppose what I am saying is that you have to tie fixing it up to the sources of revenue in the first place, because if you break that nexus suddenly someone else has to wear the cost of cleaning it up. That's what I mean by the difference. As a part of the mining process, once the mine shuts down, you then have to rehabilitate it, that's all one smooth transition. But if it is not done there and then, 10 or 20 years later someone else has to pick up the tab and they don't have the income to fund the actual clean-up. I suppose that's my point. That's why I am asking about those environmental bonds and whether or not they are still tied—

Ms Lanyon : To that particular site.

Senator RENNICK: Because you need the income for the cost, or otherwise it's going to be unfunded. It then becomes hard to fund the actual cost of rehabilitating.

ACTING CHAIR: I think Senator Rennick's just made an excellent point about the need for proximity, so that the workforce can continue and rehab work can get done. With the 15,000-odd abandoned mines, obviously there hasn't been that continuity, because production's already ceased there. How many additional mines on foot—and I presume they all have rehab obligations—are currently still producing and would add to the 15,000, in terms of a demand or a need for rehabilitation, if you're following what I'm asking? How many currently open mines have we got?

Ms Lanyon : I have no idea; I am really sorry. I can get back to you on that if you'd like us to do a bit more research. We should have done that.

ACTING CHAIR: If you've got anything to hand that isn't too much of an extra time drain on your busy schedules, it's really just a point of interest to see how big the task is, what the employment potential is and how we can not make that 15,000 get significantly worse. Already, that's an enormous legacy of sometimes toxic pits still contaminating local waterways or causing trouble for local communities.

Ms Lanyon : Yes.

ACTING CHAIR: You mentioned reef restoration. This is something that I don't know an awful lot about, and I'd love to hear more from both of your perspectives about the potential for it—yes, the jobs potential, but also the ecological decision as to whether it's an appropriate and helpful thing to do. Can you tell us a little bit more about that.

Ms Lanyon : It's definitely an emerging industry. There's a lot of research currently being done. Generally, it's a little bit more difficult to get done in the Great Barrier Reef World Heritage Area, for example, because of the significant permit issues that most people who are doing the work have to deal with. A lot of Australian researchers go overseas to the Philippines or other areas and do some of their experiments over there. The state of Florida in the United States is one of the leaders in reef restoration. I think it's become more of a highlight in the last few years that reef restoration is a possibility for the Great Barrier Reef, because of the fact that we've never seen this sort of consistent cyclone damage, bleaching and high temperatures of waters coming through at the levels that they have been in the last few years. I think it's really highlighted that there's a potential. We've started working with a lot of these Australian researchers as well. We obviously find it a really interesting space, because you're connecting the sea and country. What a beautiful way to meld two really interesting processes—ecological restoration, both land and sea. There are very similar processes in terms of either planting or working out from the most biodiverse spot and allowing reseeding to happen. One of the researchers is doing a massive amount of research on collecting coral spawn and forcing it back down onto the reef and then measuring how much is actually re-colonised to the reef. There are very, very novel ways of doing things. They are now looking at, 'Do you go to the next level of getting a supertanker and collecting all that coral spawn that just floats on the surface and gets washed away with currents?' There are some really, really interesting things that are happening in that space. Right now, it's all very small, minor experimental work, in particular in Australia. It's now getting to that stage where we need to get to a point of scaling up. How can we do this? If you think about the Whitsundays—severely damaged, a major tourist site for the Great Barrier Reef and very significantly impacted, obviously, due to the cyclone that went through there recently. I believe that reef restoration is something that's on the horizon and we'll definitely be seeing more fins underwater doing some on-ground—some underwater—work. There are some really, really amazing things happening.

ACTING CHAIR: What do you think is the potential scale of the workforce?

Ms Lanyon : There are so many marine biologists out there—including myself, being one of them, so I'm actually really passionate about this—who end up doing environmental work where it's all terrestrial. There is not a lot of work in that reef space. You really need to be quite specialised in terms of what you're delivering. You're either in tourism, training people to do work out on the reef, or you're in research.

ACTING CHAIR: Do you see it as a potential growth area?

Ms Lanyon : Absolutely. It's something that Ecosure is definitely starting to look into—whether we train people ourselves. We're partnering with a couple of local organisers. There's a local organisation here called Reef Ecologic that is starting to do reef restoration training sessions on Orpheus and various other places, including doing it with Indigenous and traditional owners of the sea country.

ACTING CHAIR: In terms of the natural home of new skills in that regard, it would seem to me to be Townsville, given you've got AIMS, JCU, GBRMPA and all of the main marine sciences already based here. Is there a sense that Townsville would be the natural home for this growing new reef restoration area?

Ms Lanyon : It could absolutely be a natural home, definitely.

ACTING CHAIR: You talked about some councils doing local ecological restoration and resilience work—in particular, the planting of buffers to guard against subsequent vegetation loss to ensure that the benefit of those buffers would still exist even if the original buffer died. I think that's what you were describing. You mentioned Noosa Shire Council, and obviously that's in South-East Queensland, a bit closer to where I live. Are there any other councils, particularly in North Queensland, that you're aware of that are doing that sort of buffer work or council led ecological resilience work?

Ms Lanyon : Not that I'm aware. There are elements of it, but not to the extent that Noosa Shire has gone to.

Mr O'Grady : I know Mackay Regional Council want to do that. They don't necessarily have the funding to do that.

ACTING CHAIR: How are Noosa affording it? Are they self-funding or have they got any grant support from other levels of government? Do you know?

Ms Lanyon : I actually don't know, sorry.

ACTING CHAIR: Is it a significant expense?

Ms Lanyon : Again, I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

ACTING CHAIR: We're in Mackay tomorrow, so perhaps we can ask folks there about that. What's the need for that sort of work ecologically? Is there a potential for ecological restoration in the north to be not only providing employment but providing environmental benefit going forward?

Ms Lanyon : I think you touched on it earlier around tourism in the wet tropics area. That's a huge industry in its own right. If you're thinking about an industry in terms of protecting our communities, and those coastal communities in particular, in its own right there's a mental shift into going, 'What are we doing in terms of trying to protect our communities rather than keep smashing ourselves and getting as close to the water as we can?' I think there's a real potential industry there in terms of the environmental benefits that those buffers can provide us, not only in terms of spread of disease, spread of vectors and spread of other pests that potentially travel through those systems. As we mentioned in the submission, from a coastal perspective, I think we've all seen quite a significant amount of coastal damage up and down the eastern border. It's pretty intense. Being able to have that protection from cyclones, which we all know are starting to increase and become more frequent and more intense, and flooding—all of that provides the ecosystem services down the track and allows that community to be a lot more resilient. So it would be awesome to see more of that happening.

ACTING CHAIR: Is there much done in the way of valuing the economic contribution of ecosystem services?

Ms Lanyon : Not that much. It could be done a lot better than it is done now. There could be a lot more done.

ACTING CHAIR: I accept that there's an intrinsic value for ecosystems as well as the fact that they support human life, but sometimes money talks. I'm interested if there are any figures that you have to hand on the value of ecosystem services to our economy.

Ms Lanyon : I don't have it to hand right now, but if you need me to get back to the committee on that, I can.

ACTING CHAIR: If it's easy enough to grab and you've got it fairly ready then that would be great. We're coming up to the end of the session. Senator Rennick, do you have any further questions for these witnesses?

Senator RENNICK: No. I'm fine, thanks.

ACTING CHAIR: Senator Chisholm, we've got a few minutes, if you've got some questions for these folk.

Senator CHISHOLM: No. I'm fine, thanks.

ACTING CHAIR: I might take this opportunity to say thank you very much for your detailed submission. Thank you for having someone placed in the regions. In fact, maybe with the remaining few minutes, can you talk about what brought you to Townsville and what potential you see for jobs in this industry, either with your company or in similar industries, in the regions.

Mr O'Grady : Yes. I used to live in Townsville, so I've come back. There's a lot of potential in the regeneration space. It's finding the right places to start plus being well placed with the reef, looking at reef rehabilitation.

Ms Lanyon : And Michael was in our Rockhampton office for a good five years. He's grown with us from a graduate to now being a regional project coordinator up here. He's moved back for family reasons. What we've found, as a business, is that we're having to start to become a lot more flexible in how and where we're hiring our people. As I think I mentioned before, it's really hard to find qualified local people. We tend to be a lot more flexible as a business and allow people to work where they desire to work, but we also work with them to build a new potential area. So that's where Michael has been placed, and we're starting in this area. We've got a couple of projects here already. We're working with Spotless, through work on some of the defence sites up here, doing ecological restoration work.

ACTING CHAIR: Has there been any work with the new renewable-energy precinct that the council mentioned in the last session?

Mr O'Grady : No, not at this stage. We were a bit late to the party on that one.

ACTING CHAIR: Okay. That one sounded really interesting.

Ms Lanyon : We do quite a lot of work on new renewable sites. We've done a lot of work with wind farms and solar farms in Central Queensland and in New South Wales. So that whole process of having an entire ecological study done on that site before wind turbines or solar panels get put in place is done by our team.

ACTING CHAIR: The mayor in the previous session really emphasised that lack of a skills pipeline—that lack of technical or tertiary training—to really provide the jobs that are going to be needed in the medium- and long-term future. It sounds to me like you've just echoed that difficulty of finding folks with the skills in the areas that you want them. It screams the need for investment in skills and training and forward planning for what's going to be required in terms of skills. So we'll add that to the bank of different people saying the same thing, which often indicates that something needs to be done. Thank you very much for your time today.