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Press conference by Sir Garfield Barwick on return from Malaysia and Indonesia



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PRESS CONFERENCE GIVEN BY THE MINISTER FOR EXTERNAL AFFAIRS. THE HON. SIR GARFIELD BARWICK. ON HIS ARRIVAL IN SYDNEY FROM MALAYSIA AND

INDONESIA ON 20TH SEPTEMBER. HEl·

I w i l l open t h i s p r e s s c o n fe r e n c e "by sa y in g som ething

about where I have been. The p r i n c i p a l p u rp o s e of my o v e r s e a s

v i s i t was to a t t e n d th e c e l e b r a t i o n s i n Kuala Lumpur o f th e

i n a u g u r a t i o n of M a lay sia . I found t h a t t h e s e c e l e b r a t i o n s

were not o nly p o p u la r i n th e se n se t h a t i t was q u i t e e v id e n t

t h a t th e p e o p le of t h a t c o u n tr y were p l e a s e d w ith t h e e v e n t,

b u t th e e v e n t s and th e f e s t i v i t i e s of t h e few days were v e ry

w e ll o r g a n i s e d in d ee d , r a t h e r i m a g i n a t i v e l y c o n c e iv e d i n many

r e s p e c t s and v e ry e f f i c i e n t l y e x e c u te d . And I t h i n k t h a t I

owe i t to my h o s t s of th e few days I have b e e n away to say

t h a t I v e r y much e n jo y e d t h e c e l e b r a t i o n s and th e v a r i o u s f e s ­

t i v i t i e s . I a l s o adm ire v e r y much t h e way i n which t h e y were

c a r r i e d out and I was im p re s s e d by th e s p i r i t of th e p e o p le

d u rin g t h o s e few days.

I c a l l e d i n a t D j a k a r t a on my way. My c a l l to

D j a k a r t a a n t i c i p a t e d i n th e se n s e t h a t i t o c c u r r e d b e f o r e U Thant

had made h i s r e p o r t . I was th u s i n a p o s i t i o n to e x p r e s s

A u s t r a l i a ’ s i n t e r e s t i n M alaysia and t o se ek of t h e In d o n e s i a n

l e a d e r s t h e i r . l i k e l y c o u rs e of a c t i o n i n th e event t h a t U Thant

r e p o r t e d f a v o u r a b l y on M a la y s ia , as I th o u g h t he would b e c a u s e

of the e a r l i e r e v e n t s i n a s c e r t a i n i n g t h e w ish e s o f th e p e o p le s

of th e Borneo T e r r i t o r i e s . T h is was done by me on b e h a l f of ,

A u s t r a l i a , a s a n e a r n e ig h b o u r o f I n d o n e s i a , t o make known i t s

p o i n t of view, and i t s i n t e r e s t , and a r i g h t to se ek t h e views

of t h e n e ig h b o u rin g gove rn m e n t.

I want to make c l e a r som e th in g t h a t I see o c c a s i o n a l l y

w r i t t e n a b o u t. I have never t a k e n t h e r o l e o f m e d i a t o r or

a t t e m p t e d m e d ia to r i n th e d i f f i c u l t i e s t h a t have a r i s e n betw een

t h e n e ig h b o u rin g c o u n t r i e s , nor have I sought any f u n c t i o n o f

e x e r c i s i n g good o f f i c e s . I want to make t h a t v e ry c l e a r . What

I have done i s to e x p re s s t h i s c o u n t r y ’ s p o in t, o f view, f e e l i n g

t h a t i t i s a w e ig h ty p o in t o f view, and a t t e m p t i n g by i t s

e x p r e s s i o n to i n f l u e n c e th e c o u rs e o f e v e n t s . No d o u b t, i n

t e l l i n g th e I n d o n e s i a n l e a d e r s p r e c i s e l y where we s to o d , and

in d e e d what c o n c l u s i o n s we might draw from I n d o n e s i a n c o u rs e s o f

c o n d u c t , I d i d hope to i n f l u e n c e t h e i r u l t i m a t e d e c i s i o n . But

t h a t of c o u rs e i s q u i t e d i f f e r e n t from a t t e m p t i n g to m e d ia te or

to u se good o f f i c e s . That was an e x e r c i s e i n e x p r e s s i n g A u s t­

r a l i a ’ s i n t e r e s t s and A u s t r a l i a ’ s view s.

You w i l l have g a t h e r e d from a s t a te m e n t I made when

I l e f t D j a k a r t a t h a t t h e i n t e r v i e w s w ith th e In d o n e s ia n l e a d e r s

were q u i t e d i r e c t and t h a t t h e y were n o t l e f t i n any doubt as to

A u s t r a l i a ’s p o s i t i o n . We have made i t q u i t e c l e a r t h a t we

fa v o u re d th e c r e a t i o n of M a la y s ia . We have made i t q u i t e c l e a r

- 2 -

t h a t we o u r s e l v e s h a d c o n c l u d e d t h a t t h e p e o p l e s o f t h e B o r n e o

T e r r i t o r i e s , a s t h e y were t h e n , r e a l l y d i d w i s h t o f i n d t h e i r

i n d e p e n d e n c e a n d e x e r c i s e i t t h r o u g h t h e i r i n c o r p o r a t i o n i n t o

t h e e x i s t i n g F e d e r a t i o n , so t h a t i t s h o u l d become a w i d e r F e d ­

e r a t i o n o f M a l a y s i a . E q u a l l y , t h e I n d o n e s i a n s r e a l i s e b o t h

f r o m t h i n g s t h a t I may h a v e s a i d , and f r o m our g e n e r a l r e l a t ­

i o n s h i p w i t h M a l a y a , t h e f a c t t h a t we a r e a Commonwealth

c o u n t r y , t h e f a c t t h a t we h a v e l o n g t r a d i t i o n a l a s s o c i a t i o n s

w i t h G r e a t B r i t a i n , ..that t h i s c o u n t r y f e e l s i t s e l f c o n c e r n e d

i n t h e s e c u r i t y o f M a l a y s i a . And I t h o u g h t t h e I n d o n e s i a n

l e a d e r s q u i t e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t A u s t r a l i a was l i k e l y t o s t a n d w i t h

G r e a t B r i t a i n i f a n y q u e s t i o n o f v i o l a t i o n o f t h e s e c u r i t y o f

M a l a y s i a d i d o c c u r .

As you know, u p t o t h e t i m e I l e f t D j a k a r t a , U T h a n t

h a d n o t p u b l i s h e d h i s r e p o r t , o r a t any r a t e i t h a d n o t become

known an d c a p a b l e o f d i s c u s s i o n . C o n s e q u e n t l y i f you l o o k a t

my s t a t e m e n t i n D j a k a r t a , i t i s made h y p o t h e t i c a l l y ; t h a t i s

t o s a y , o n t h e a s s u m p t i o n t h a t U T h a n t wou ld t a k e a c e r t a i n

c o u r s e , I t h i n k t h e I n d o n e s i a n l e a d e r s q u i t e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t

A u s t r a l i a wou ld welcome a c l e a r - c u t f i n d i n g b y U T h an t o f t h e

k i n d w h i c h i n f a c t he d i d g i v e , b e c a u s e we n o t o n l y t h o u g h t i t

o u r s e l v e s , b u t we w e re a l s o g l a d t o h a v e t h e U n i t e d N a t i o n s '

o b j e c t i v e a s s e s s m e n t , s u c h a s d i d o c c u r . I t h i n k t h a t f o r o u r

p a r t we h a v e b e e n v e r y p l e a s e d w i t h a n d h a v e welcomed t h e v e r y

d e f i n i t i v e r e p o r t w h i c h U T h a n t h a s made a n d I t h i n k you w i l l

f i n d i n a n o t h e r s t a t e m e n t I made a r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t c i r c u m s t a n c e .

W h i l s t I was i n K u a l a Lumpur t h e r e w e re e v e n t s t a k i n g

p l a c e i n D j a k a r t a o f a v i o l e n t k i n d . W h e t h e r t h e s e e v e n t s

were s u b j e c t i n an y s e n s e t o o r g a n i s a t i o n b y a u t h o r i t y i s a

m a t t e r on w h i c h I am n o t f u r n i s h e d w i t h s u f f i c i e n t m a t e r i a l t o

e n a b l e me t o draw: a c o n c l u s i o n . But w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e y a r e ,

I am s u r e we a l l f e e l t h a t , a f t e r so many l o n g y e a r s i n i n t e r - .

n a t i o n a l l i f e a t t e m p t i n g t o b u i l d up t h e i n v i o l a b i l i t y o f

d i p l o m a t i c p r o p e r t y and d i p l o m a t i c p e r s o n n e l s o t h a t n o r m a l

d i p l o m a t i c e x c h a n g e s b e t w e e n n a t i o n s c a n t a k e p l a c e , i t i s d e e p l y

t o be r e g r e t t e d t h a t t h a t i n v i o l a b i l i t y i s b r o u g h t i n t o a n y

j e o p a r d y o r q u e s t i o n . C a r r y i n g on o f d i p l o m a t i c l i f e and t h e

i n t e r c o u r s e b e t w e e n n a t i o n s demands u n e q u i v o c a l l y t h a t i n v i o l ­

a b i l i t y o f p r o p e r t y and p e r s o n , so t h a t t h e r e may b e c o m p l e t e l y

f r a n k and f r e e e x c h a n g e o f v i e w s w i t h o u t a n y f o r m o f r e s e r v a t ­

i o n a s t o w h e t h e r o r n o t p r o p e r t y and l i f e i s i n d a n g e r .

W e ll I t h i n k t h a t c o v e r s what I w ould l i k e t o s a y i n

o p e n i n g . .

QUESTION: S i r G a r f i e l d , l a s t n i g h t , Mr. McEwen s a i d t h a t

A u s t r a l i a w ou ld g i v e u n l i m i t e d s u p p o r t t o G r e a t B r i t a i n i n t h e

same way a s we would e x p e c t them t o g i v e s u p p o r t t o u s . Does

t h a t mean t h a t we s h a l l g i v e armed s u p p o r t t o G r e a t B r i t a i n

s h o u l d t h e r e b e a n y armed c o n f l i c t w i t h I n d o n e s i a ?

ANSWER: D id Mr. McEwen*s w o rd s l e a v e you i n some d o u b t ) '

I s h o u l d n o t h a v e t h o u g h t s o . H i s wor ds s p e a k f o r t h e m s e l v e s .

I am n o t h e r e t o b e a g l o s s a r y on my c o l l e a g u e ' s , w o r d s .

Q. Does t h a t mean arm ed c o n f l i c t , S i r ?

A. I s a i d I am n o t h e r e t o make a g l o s s a r y on what

a n o t h e r M i n i s t e r h a s s a i d . I s p e a k f o r m y s e l f .

- 3 -

Q. . A r e p o r t f r o m K u a l a Lumpur i n t o d a y s p r e s s q u o t e s you .

a s s a y i n g t h a t A u s t r a l i a h a s made a new d e f e n c e a r r a n g e m e n t t o

p o v e r M a l a y s i a f r a i l t i e s .

A, T h a t ' s what I s a i d . T h i s i s one o f t h e f r a i l t i e s o f

human n a t u r e . I was a s k e d i n K u a l a Lumpur h y p r e s s m e n : d i d

t h e a r r a n g e m e n t w i t h Malaya a u t o m a t i c a l l y e x t e n d when M a l a y s i a

came i n t o e x i s t e n c e ? I s a i d i t d i d n o t do s o a u t o m a t i c a l l y ,

h u t t h a t i t w o u l d do so b e c a u s e o f c o n v e r s a t i o n s I h a d h a d and

a r r a n g e m e n t s w h i c h h a d b e e n made. T h a t i s t h e f a c t and a s y o u . '

h a v e g a t h e r e d f r o m t h e P r i m e M i n i s t e r ’ s s t a t e m e n t , t h e e x i s t i n g

r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n A u s t r a l i a and Malay a w i l l b e e x t e n d e d t o '

c o v e r M a l a y s i a a s i t now c o v e r s M a lay a . I f you c a l l t h a t a

pew a r r a n g e m e n t , w e l l t h a t i s y o u r............... ' '

Q. No, I was q u o t i n g .

A. Oh y e s , you w e re q u o t i n g somebody who h a s d i g e s t e d

s o m e t h i n g n o t v e r y a c c u r a t e l y .

Q. T h i s i s S i r R o b e r t * s own s t a t e m e n t t h a t you a r e r e f e r r ­

i n g t o ? .

A. Yes.

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , may we s a y now what we s h o u l d ha ve

s a i d e a r l i e r - welcome b a c k t o A u s t r a l i a . '

A. Thank you v e r y much. I d i d n ' t t h i n k t h a t n e e d e d t o

b e s a i d . .

Q. We would j u s t l i k e you t o know i t . May I a s k i f

p e r h a p s you were n o t v e r y a c c u r a t e l y q u o t e d when, f r o m K u a l a

Lump ur, i t was r e p o r t e d : " S i r G a r f i e l d s a i d t h a t A u s t r a l i a so

f a r h a d made no d e f i n i t e commitment t o d e f e n d M a l a y s i a " . I .

am. t h i n k i n g o f Mr. C r i t h c l e y ' s l e t t e r and i t s a p p l i c a t i o n t o t h e

1957 t r e a t y and t h e f u r t h e r e x t e n s i o n i n t h e P r i m e M i n i s t e r ' s

w or ds o f Malaya t o M a l a y s i a .

A. You must u s e a l l t h e s e s o - c a l l e d q u o t a t i o n s w i t h t h e

p r o p e r r e s e r v a t i o n . L e t me j u s t e x p l a i n t o you a b a s i c t h i n g .

G r e a t B r i t a i n h a s a s p e c i a l r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h M a l a y s i a . A f t e r

a l l , G r e a t B r i t a i n h a s b e e n t h e c o l o n i a l power and b e e n r e s ­

p o n s i b l e as a c o l o n i a l power f o r t h e d e f e n c e o f t h e s e t e r r i t o r ­

i e s , s e v e r a l l y , i n t h e p a s t , a s t h e y h a v e d e v e l o p e d . G r e a t

B r i t a i n , by h e r d e f e n c e a r r a n g e m e n t , h a s u n d e r t a k e n d i r e c t what

you m ig h t c a l l v i r t u a l l y a m i l i t a r y g u a r a n t e e o f t h e i n t e g r i t y

o f M a l a y s i a . T h i s , a s you c a n s e e , s t e m s o u t o f G r e a t B r i t a i n ' s

s p e c i a l r e l a t i o n s h i p . I s u p p o s e when you t a l k a b o u t a c o m m it ­

ment,. you a r e t h i n k i n g a b o u t t h a t s o r t o f t h i n g . Now A u s t r a l i a

h a s n o t t h e same r e l a t i o n s h i p . ; . Malaya an d A u s t r a l i a a r e f e l l o w

Commonwealth c o u n t r i e s a n d , a s Commonwealth c o u n t r i e s , we a r e

a c c u s t o m e d t o m ak in g a r r a n g e m e n t s o f , wh at you m ig h t c a l l , a b r o a d

k i n d , a l l f o u n d e d o f c o u r s e u p o n a l o n g - s t a n d i n g and w e l l u n d e r ­

s t o o d r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e c o u n t r i e s . To s e e how d e e p l y

A u s t r a l i a f e e l s Commonwealth i n t e r e s t , you h a v e o n l y t o remember .

what we d i d when I n d i a was a t t a c k e d . J u s t t h i n k o f t h e s t r e n g t h

o f t h e Commonwealth r e l a t i o n s h i p . You s e e a q u e s t i o n o f a ·

Commitment, i n t h e s e n s e t h a t I a ss u m e you u s e t h e word. But .

l o o k a t t h e r e s p o n s e t h e Commonwealth r e l a t i o n s h i p c a l l s f o r τ

we g a v e two m i l l i o n p o u n d s t o I n d i a , n o t a s m a l l sum f o r A u s t ^

r a l i a , a nd we a r e a l s o now p a r t i c i p a t i n g i n a n a i r e x e r c i s e ,

a c c o r d i n g t o o u r c a p a c i t y . Now we s t a n d f o r M a l a y a , now M a l a y s i a ,

a s a f e l l o w Commonwealth c o u n t r y , a n d we h a v e t h e a r r a n g e m e n t s

w h i c h a s s o c i a t e u s w i t h t h e B r i t i s h a r r a n g e m e n t s . I d o n ' t t h i n k

-li­

t h e M a l a y s i a n s a r e i n t h e l e a s t d o u b t a s t o where we s t a n d a s

a f e l l o w Commonwealth c o u n t r y . T h i s f l e x i b l e Commonwealth

a r r a n g e m e n t a l l o w s you t o make y o u r own p o l i t i c a l d e c i s i o n s , i n

t h e p r e v a i l i n g c i r c u m s t a n c e s a c c o r d i n g t o t h e i r n e e d . Now,

yo a d o n ' t n e e d a f o r m u l a f o r t h a t . I n d e e d t h e Commonwealth

h a s b e e n b u i l t on an a b s e n c e o f f o r m u l a e . '

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , would t h e p o s i t i o n p r e t t y d e f i n i t e l y

benow t h a t , where M a l a y s i a w ould come u b d e r armed a t t a c k , o u r

f o r c e s w o u ld b e p u t i n t o co m ba t? '

. W e l l I t h i n k myself, t h a t i t i s t h e w o r s t o f a l l w o r l d s

t o a t t e m p t t o a n s w e r t h a t s o r t of h y p o t h e t i c a l q u e s t i o n . The

v e r y s t r e n g t h o f our r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h M a l a y s i a i s t h a t we a r e

a b l e t o make our d e c i s i o n s w i t h them i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e

e v e n t s an d demands o f t h e moment. I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h a t t o

a n t i c i p a t e what we do h e r e or t h e r e s t r e n g t h e n s our p o s i t i o n .

Q. T h e re i s n o t l i k e l y t o be any c h a n g e i n t h e p r e s e n t

s e t - u p which we h ave i n M a l a y s i a u n d e r t h e S t r a t e g i c Command?

We have A u s t r a l i a n f o r c e s a s p a r t o f .t h e S t r a t e g i c Command.

T h e r e i s no l i k e l i h o o d o f any c h an g e t h e r e ?

A. Oh no. W e l l, as I have j u s t s a i d , we h a v e m a i n t a i n e d

t h e same s i t u a t i o n t h e r e .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , d i d you g e t t h e f e e l i n g i n I n d o n e s i a

t h a t t h e y w a n te d t o make war or d i d n o t want t o make war t o

g e t h o l d o f power i n Borneo i r r e s p e c t i v e o f U T h a n t ' s a t t i t u d e ?

A. I t h i n k t h e most I c an sa y t o you i s t h a t I o b t a i n e d

a c l e a r i m p r e s s i o n t h a t , a s a t t h e t im e I was t h e r e , t h e y were

n o t g o i n g t o a c c e p t t h e c o n c e p t o f M a l a y s i a . How f a r t h a t would

t a k e them I c o u l d n ' t s a y , n o r c a n I ev en s a y now, n o r c o u ld you,

t h a t t h e y h ave y e t r e a c h e d t h e i r f i n a l c o n c l u s i o n .

Q. . S i r G a r f i e l d i t was m e n t i o n e d on t h e r a d i o , t h a t when

you were i n Malaya,, you were g o i n g t o d i s c u s s w i t h Tunku Abdul

Rahman a new d e f e n c e s y s te m b e t w e e n A u s t r a l i a and Malaya. Can

you t e l l u s what t h a t new d e f e n c e s y s te m b e t w e e n A u s t r a l i a ,

afid Malaya i s ? ’ .

A. W ell, I d o n ' t know what you a r e q u o t i n g . W h i l s t I

was t h e r e I . ..d i s c u s s e d t h e e x t e n s i o n o f t h e e x i s t i n g a r r a n g e m e n t

a s b e t w e e n A u s t r a l i a and Malaya t o c o v e r M a l a y s i a and I h a v e

t o l d a b o u t i t .

Q, And A u s t r a l i a * s commitment t o G r e a t B r i t a i n i n M.alaya

i n t h e S t r a t e g i c R e s e rv e a l s o i n c l u d e s M a l a y s i a now, does i t ?

A* W e ll, when you t a l k a b o u t poipnitm ent, I w ish you would

g e t y o u r words r i g h t . I f ypu keep i t t o t h e word " a r r a n g e m e n t " ,

we u n d e r s t a n d what you mean. The e x i s t i n g a r r a n g e m e n t s a r e t h e

same. :

Q, Now t h a t M a l a y s ia i s i n o p e r a t i o n , t h e a r r a n g e m e n t we

have f n Malaya w i t h G r e a t B r i t a i n

A, ............... e x t e n d s t o M a l a y s ia ·

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , t h e r e i s e d i t o r i a l c r i t i c i s m t o d a y o f

iilr. Sharin' s a c t i o n i n e v a c u a t i n g A u s t r a l i a n d i p l o m a t i c p e r s o n n e l ,

women and c h i l d r e n , t o S i n g a p o r e as b e i n g u n n e c e s s a r y s i n c e we

were n o t a t any tim e t h r e a t e n e d , a u d ' a a g i v i n g a b ad i m p r e s s i o n

- 5 -

o f o u r a t t i t u d e t o I n d o n e s i a n s , and t o A s i a n s g e n e r a l l y . Do

you h a v e any comment on t h i s ?

A,. I h a v e no c r i t i c i s m o f what Mr. S h a n n d i d . I saw t h e

l a d i e s m y s e l f l a s t n i g h t i n S i n g a p o r e a s t h e y came o f f t h e i r

p l a n e . I t h i n k what Mr. S h a n n d i d , a s a n Ambassador was

e n t i t l e d t o do, was no more t h a n a s e n s i b l e r e a c t i o n t o t h e

w i s h e s o f t h e women a nd t h e i r h u s b a n d s who were f a c i n g a s i t u a t ­

i o n w h i c h was u n u s u a l t o them. T h e r e was mob a c t i v i t y , no

d o u b t i n t h e s i g h t o f some o f t h e m , b u r n i n g p r o p e r t y , and I su p p

o s e you would a g r e e w i t h me, t h a t women f o l k u n a c c u s t o m e d t o

t h a t s o r t o f t h i n g m ig h t v e r y w e l l f e e l t h a t , f o r t h e t i m e

b e i n g , t h e y w o u l d f e e l b e t t e r away. I h a v e no c r i t i c i s m o f

wh at Mr. S h a n n d i d a t a l l . You d o n ' t want t o b u i l d i t up i n t o

some s o r t o f s i g n i f i c a n t t h i n g w h ic h i t i s n o t ; i t was a s e n s i b l e

human p r e c a u t i o n r e s p e c t i n g t h e f e e l i n g s o f t h e women an d t h e

c h i l d r e n o f o u r own A u s t r a l i a n p e r s o n n e l . -~

Q. The e d i t o r i a l c h o s e t o c o n t r a s t t h i s a c t i o n w i t h t h e

a c t i o n o f t h e A m e r i c a n s , whose a n sw e r t o t h i s was t h e b a s i s of. -

t h e i r c r i t i c i s m .

A. Y e s . I am n o t g o i n g by t h a t e i t h e r t o p r a i s e o r

c r i t i c i s e t h e r e a c t i o n s o f somebody e l s e . S u f f i c e t o s a y t h a t

o u r own A u s t r a l i a n Am ba ssa dor t h o u g h t t h a t h e s h o u l d r e s p e c t t h e

w i s h e s o f t h e s e p e o p l e and t h e i r h u s b a n d s ,

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , i t i s s o m e t i m e s s a i d t h a t I n d o n e s i a i s

e x t r e m e l y w e l l - e q u i p p e d w i t h arms a n d n a vy and so f o r t h , and

o t h e r p e o p l e s a y t h a t t h e y m i g h t b e w e l l - e q u i p p e d b u t t h a t t h e y

d o n ' t know how t o u s e i t ? Now a f t e r y o u r r e c e n t t r i p h a v e you

come b a c k w i t h a n y i m p r e s s i o n s o f t h e i r d e f e n c e a n d t h e i r r e a d i ­

n e s s ?

A. No. T h e r e a r e two t h i n g s a b o u t t h a t . One, I was

b u s y s e e i n g t h e i r l e a d e r s i n c o n f e r e n c e i n s i d e f o u r w a l l s , h o u r

a f t e r h o u r and f r o m p l a c e t o p l a c e . I h a d two v e r y b u s y d a y s .

S e c o n d l y , I am n o t a m i l i t a r y e x p e r t .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , t h e c u r r e n t o f d e s t r u c t i o n o f B r i t i s h

p r o p e r t y , i n d e e d o f d i p l o m a t i c p r o p e r t y i n some c a s e s , h a s l e d

t o a t h o u g h t t h a t B r i t a i n may s h o r t l y b r e a k o f f d i p l o m a t i c

r e l a t i o n s w i t h I n d o n e s i a . Would A u s t r a l i a f e e l b o u n d t o f o l l o w

s u i t ?

A. I d o n ' t s e e why. When i t comes t o d i p l o m a t i c l i f e ,

t h e i m p o r t a n t t h i n g i s t o k e e p y o u r b r i d g e s u p , n o t t o b r e a k

th em down. Of c o u r s e t h e r e comes a p o i n t o f t i m e when maybe

t h e y h a v e g o t t o b e b r o k e n down. But we a l l p r o f i t e n o r m o u s l y

b y t h e c o n t i n u e d i n t e r c o u r s e o f n a t i o n s . T h i s b r e a k i n g - o f f

d i p l o m a t i c r e l a t i o n s i s n o t a p u n i t i v e t h i n g .

Q. You w ou ld n o t f e e l t h a t our a s s o c i a t i o n t h r o u g h t h e

a r r a n g e m e n t s , a s you s a y , r e g a r d i n g M a l a y s i a , w o u l d n o t p e r h a p s

c o m p e l u s t o f o r m a common f r o n t w i t h E n g l a n d i n t h i s c a s e ?

A. One wou ld h a v e t o know a l l a b o u t t h e r e a s o n s and

c i r c u m s t a n c e s i n w h ic h t h e B r i t i s h t e r m i n a t e d . T h e r e may b e

c i r c u m s t a n c e s t h a t a p p l i e d e q u a l l y t o u s o r n o t . I c o u l d n ’ t

t e l l y o u . .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , what was Dr. S u b a n d r i o ’ s r e a c t i o n t o you

when you m a d e . i t c l e a r t o h i m t h a t we were s t a n d i n g s o l i d l y

b e h i n d G r e a t B r i t a i n ?

- 6 -

A. I t h o u g h t t h a t t h e I n d o n e s i a n s , u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t a s

o f t h e t i m e when I was t h e r e , p r e f e r r e d t o t a k e t h e i r own c o u r s e .

T h a t i s t o s a y , o f n o t r e c o g n i s i n g M a l a y s i a .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , d i d t h e I n d o n e s i a n l e a d e r s e x p r e s s

d i s a p p o i n t m e n t a t A u s t r a l i a ' s s t a n d i n r e g a r d t o M a l a y s i a ?

A. Oh no . They u n d e r s t o o d p e r h a p s a l i t t l e b e f o r e I

we nt t h e r e . I h a v e k e p t a r u n n i n g d i a l o g u e , a s you m i g h t c a l l

i t , w i t h Dr. S u b a n d r i o . He h a s n o t b e e n i n a n y d o u b t a s t o what

o u r a t t i t u d e was. I n f a c t I made i t v e r y c l e a r l a s t March

when I saw h i m i n M a n i l a . .

Q. Did you s e e P r e s i d e n t S u k a r n o on t h i s o c c a s i o n , S i r ?

A. Y e s, I d i d .

Qe And wh at was h i s r e a c t i o n t o you?

As W e l l , i t was t h e same a s I t o l d yo u . He h a d h i s own

p o i n t o f v i e w and he d i d n ’ t p r o p o s e t o r e c o g n i s e M a l a y s i a .

Q. Did he e x p r e s s lany b i t t e r n e s s a t a l l ?

A9 Our r e l a t i o n s h i p s were q u i t e c o r d i a l ; i t i s n o t a

q u e s t i o n o f b i t t e r n e s s .

Q. Would you c a l l i t a c a s e a g r e e i n g t o d i s a g r e e ?

A. T h a t was wh at Dr. S u b a n d r i o , I t h i n k , s a i d . ■

Q. Would t h a t d e s c r i b e t h e s i t u a t i o n ?

A. Oh y e s, I s u p p o s e i t w o u l d . We saw e a c h o t h e r ’ s p o i n t

o f v ie w and u n d e r s t o o d e a c h o t h e r .

Q. Did he s u g g e s t any p o s s i b l e w o r s e n i n g o f r e l a t i o n s

b e t w e e n A u s t r a l i a and I n d o n e s i a a s a r e s u l t ?

A. Not a t a l l .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , what a r e t h e c h a n c e s o f armed c o n f l i c t

b e t w e e n I n d o n e s i a a n d t h e M a l a y s i a n S t a t e s ? Do y ou t h i n k i t

i s c o m p l e t e l y r e m o t e t h a t i t w i l l e v e r g e t t o t h a t s t a g e ?

A. I am n o t g o i n g t o s p e c u l a t e a b o u t t h a t , and I d o n ’ t

t h i n k t h a t i t i s p r o f i t a b l e t o be a s u b j e c t o f s p e c u l a t i o n a t ■

t h i s t i m e .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , may I p u r s u e a new l i n e o f t h o u g h t . ..

W h i l e you were away, S i r , t h e r e was r e n e w e d a nd c o n t i n u e d p r e s s u r e

b y c o m m e r c i a l o r g a n i s a t i o n s i n t h i s c o u n t r y , a s ' you we re p r o b a b l y

i n f o r m e d o f , i n r e g a r d t o y o u r p r o p o s e d r e s t r i c t i v e t r a d e p r a c ­

t i c e s l e g i s l a t i o n . The Pr im e M i n i s t e r made some r e m a r k s t o a n

o r g a n i s a t i o n w h ic h t h e O p p o s i t i o n c h o s e t o i n t e r p r e t a s I t h i n k

t h e y u s e d t h e e x p r e s s i o n : " P u l l i n g t h e r u g o u t f r o m u n d e r y o u " .

Do you h a v e a n y comment t o make o n t h a t ?

A· I h e a r d t h i s c o l o u r f u l e x p r e s s i o n , .but o f c o u r s e t h e

O p p o s i t i o n se em t o h a v e t o g e t o n t o a ny o l d b a n d - w a g o n . As a

m a t t e r o f f a c t a n y b i l l y c a r t d o e s a t t h e moment. As t o what you

c a l l t h e c o m m e r c i a l o p p o s i t i o n , t h e E con om ic Group i n C a b i n e t

and m y s e l f l i s t e n e d t o what t h e M a n u f a c t u r e r s I n d u s t r i a l A d v i s o r y

' C o u n c i l r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s h a d t o s a y . I t h i n k t h e r e h a s b e e n a

good d e a l o f what you m i g h t c a l l m i s u n d e r s t a n d i n g . T h e s e p r o ­

p o s a l s w h i c h I h a v e f o r m u l a t e d , we re p u t f o r w a r d f o r c r i t i c i s m .

- Τ ­

Ι a s k e d f o r c r i t i c i s m , I g o t i t . I p a i d a t t e n t i o n t o i t .

I h a v e made d e c i s i o n s f r o m t i m e t o t i m e . Some t h i n g s n e e d e d a

l i t t l e m o d i f i c a t i o n , some t h i n g s d i d n o t . Of c o u r s e i t w o u l d

h e t h e m o s t f o o l i s h t h i n g i n t h e w o r l d t o h e a n n o u n c i n g e v e r y

s e c o n d T h u r s d a y t h a t I h a d f o r m e d a n o p i n i o n t h a t t h e r e w o u l d

h e t h i s m o d i f i c a t i o n o r t h a t , p a r t i c u l a r l y u n t i l I h a d h e a r d a l l

t h e i r c r i t i c i s m s , a n d a s s e s s e d t h e m a l l » a n d l o o k e d a t a l l t h e

m a t e r i a l t h a t was f o r t h c o m i n g . T h a t i s w h e r e t h e m a t t e r

s t a n d s .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , a t t h e p r e s e n t t i m e do y o u f e e l t h a t

t h e r e i s a c o m p l e t e u n i m i n i t y w i t h i n t h e A u s t r a l i a n F e d e r a l

C a b i n e t a s t o how f a r we s h o u l d g o i n d e m o n s t r a t i n g s o l i d a r i t y ,

s h a l l I s a y , w i t h M a l a y s i a ? Or a r e t h e r e s e v e r a l c u r r e n t s o f

t h o u g h t now w i t h i n t h e C a b i n e t ?

A. . W e l l i t i s n o t f o r me t o s a y o t h e r t h a n t h i s , t h a t t h e

C a b i n e t i s q u i t e s o l i d i n t h e v i e w s w h i c h we h a v e e x p r e s s e d a s

t o M a l a y s i a . .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , i t h a s b e e n e x p r e s s e d t h a t p o s s i b l y y o u

m i g h t b e r e l i n q u i s h i n g y o u r A t t o r n e y - G e n e r a l s h i p a n d c o n c e n t r a t ­

i n g p u r e l y o n E x t e r n a l A f f a i r s . C a n y o u s a y i f t h e r e i s a n y

t r u t h i n t h i s a t t h i s s t a g e ?

A. I t i s n o t f o r me t o s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h a t . I ’ v e g o t

t h e s e t wo v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g a n d e x a c t i n g p o r t f o l i o s . P u r s u i n g

. e a p h o f t h e m a s I s h o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t s h o u l d b e .......... .. ..

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , i n t h e a r r a n g e m e n t s y o u h a v e r e g a r d i n g

A u s t r a l i a n t r o o p s i n t h e S t r a t e g i c R e s e r v e , t h e r e i s no l i m i t a t ­

i o n p l a c e d o n t h e i r u s e , i s t h e r e ?

A* No, t h e B r i t i s h D e f e n c e A g r e e m e n t a n d s o o n w e r e

t a b l e d e a r l i e r a n d t h a t i s t h e f o r m o f A g r e e m e n t , B u t y o u

w i l l s e e t h a t t h e S t r a t e g i c R e s e r v e i s i n M a l a y a , a n d w i l l b e

now i n M a l a y s i a . W e l l , r e a l l y t h e r e a r e t h r e e r e a s o n s . One,

i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e s e c u r i t y o f M a l a y a , now M a l a y s i a ; t w o , .

f o r t h e p e r f o r m a n c e o f Co mmonwe a l t h o b l i g a t i o n s ; a n d t h r e e ,

f o r t h e p e r f o r m a n c e o f i n t e r n a t i o n a l o b l i g a t i o n s .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , a r e y o u c o n f i d e n t t h a t u l t i m a t e l y y o u

w i l l b e a b l e t o p u t b e f o r e t h e H o u s e l e g i s l a t i o n t o e f f e c t i v e l y

c u r b u n d e s i r a b l e r e s t r i c t i v e t r a d e p r a c t i c e s .

A, Y e s , I h a v e s a i d s o b e f o r e a n d I r e m a i n o n t h e same

m i n d . .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , a r e c e n t n e w s p a p e r r e p o r t i n S y d n e y

s t a t e d t h a t g e n e r a l f e e l i n g i n I n d o n e s i a wa s t h a t A u s t r a l i a

was n o t a m i l i t a r y p o w e r w i t h w h i c h t o r e c k o n . I n y o u r d i s ­

c u s s i o n w i t h t h e I n d o n e s i a n l e a d e r s was t h e r e a n y h i ' n g t h a t we

w e r e c o n s i d e r i n g a s e c o n d - c l a s s n a t i o n o r o n e w i t h w h i c h t h e y

d i d n * t h a v e t o r e c k o n ? .

A. No. I c a n ’ t s a y t h a t I s a w a n y t r a c e o f t h a t . ,

Q. D i d t h e y g i v e y o u a n y i n d i c a t i o n o f how t h e y r e g a r d e d

u s on t h e m i l i t a r y l e v e l ?

A. We w e r e n ' t d i s c u s s i n g t h a t s o r t o f t h i n g . I n t h e s e

r e c e n t d i s c u s s i o n s a n d o n o t h e r o c c a s i o n s I h a v e f e l t t h a t w h a t

A u s t r a l i a t h i n k s h a s w e i g h t w i t h t h e I n d o n e s i a n l e a d e r s .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , do y ou a n t i c i p a t e t h a t t h e r e c e n t v i o l e n c e

i n D j a k a r t a , t h e b r e a k i n g o f d i p l o m a t i c p r o p e r t y a n d t h e v i o ­

l a t i o n o f d i p l o m a t i c g r o u n d , h a s c a u s e d a l a c k o f c o n f i d e n c e

b e t w e e n A u s t r a l i a an d I n d o n e s i a ?

A. A l a c k o f c o n f i d e n c e i n what way, t r a d i n g r e l a t i o n s

o r what ...............?

Q. I n d i p l o m a t i c r e l a t i o n s h i p s , do we f e e l s a f e i n s e n d ­

i n g o u r d i p l o m a t s t o D j a k a r t a now? _

A. Our d i p l o m a t s a r e n o t i n any d a n g e r a s of t h i s moment,

a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e s i t u a t i o n t o d a y . .

Q. T h a t s i t u a t i o n c o u l d e a s i l y a r i s e i f we d i d s o m e t h i n g

t o d i s p l e a s e them ? ..

A. But t h i s i s p a r t o f d i p l o m a t i c l i f e , no m a t t e r w h a t . . . .

Q. I know, "but t h e y c r e a t e d en o u g h p r e c e d e n t s , " b r e a k i n g . . .

A. I h a v e s a i d t h a t anybody who s t o p s t o t h i n k o f t h e

v e r y b a s i s u p o n w h i c h we h a v e d i p l o m a t i c r e l a t i o n s h i p must o f

c o u r s e d e p l o r e t h e s e e v e n t s ;

Q, S i r G a r f i e l d , how would you d e s c r i b e o u r r e l a t i o n s

w i t h I n d o n e s i a a t t h e p r e s e n t t i m e ? W h i l s t t h e c o n f e r e n c e h a s

g o n e on e, would i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t t h e y were s t r a i n e d ?

A. I d o n ' t t h i n k t h e y a r i s e f o r d e s c r i p t i o n e x c e p t p e r ­

h a p s i n y o u r mind o r y o u r q u e s t i o n . I d o n ' t h a v e t o c a t e g o r i e s

t h e s e t h i n g s , an d I d o n ' t t h i n k t h a t I would a t t e m p t t o do i t .

F o r one t h i n g you c a n ' t s p e a k o f t h e s e t h i n g s a s s t a t i c anyhow,

e i t h e r ηοψ o r a t a n y o t h e r t i m e f o r t h a t m a t t e r .

Q. S i r G a r f i e l d , when you were i n D j a k a r t a d i d you h a v e

an y o p p o r t u n i t y t o h a v e an y d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h Mr. Howard J o n e s ?

A. Oh y e s , I a l w a y s meet Mr. J o n e s when I go t o D j a k a r t a

and I met him o v e r l u n c h and t a l k e d t o him.

■Q, Did he c o n v e y t o you t h e d e p t h o f A m e r i c a ' s i n t e r e s t i n

t h e a r e a a t t h e p r e s e n t t i m e ?

A. Oh no, t h a t i s n o t h i s f u n c t i o n . T h a t c o u l d n ' t be

h i s f u n c t i o n . I ' l l make t h o s e e s t i m a t e s e l s e k h e r e t h a n

Mr. J o n e s .

Q. W e l l c o u l d you g i v e u s an e s t i m a t e , S i r , t h a t you

h a v e made? '

Ae No, I am n o t g o i n g t o d i s c u s s A m e r i c a n i n t e r e s t i n

t h i s a r e a .

Q. W o u l d n ' t A u s t r a l i a n f o r c e s i n Malaga b e s t r e n g t h e n e d ,

now, S i r , w i t h r e c e n t t r o u b l e s h a v i n g o c c u r r e d i n t h e a r e a .

W i l l we b e s e n d i n g a b i g g e r ..........? . .

A. I c a n ' t a n sw e r you t h a t q u e s t i o n ; . f o r one t h i n g i t

d o e s n ' t d i r e c t l y f a l l i n my r e s p o n s i b i l i t y .