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Transcript of the Prime Minister, the Hon P.J. Keating MP and the Leader of the Opposition, the Hon John Howard MP: Great Debate Number 2: Channel Nine: 25 February 1996

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RM: Hello and wetcomo1 amund AustraH:l to 1.h� second and the 1in;;J great

same rules �pply, botr, sid-es li�ve �g.ain esked for a tree-wheeHng deb·:!Jte, agein we -wo1.1Jd do Our' t:>eS't to ensure .. we will do o ur best to ensure th:at you both have !:qual tlmi:?. A fair 91:i in ti'la Australian vemaC1Jl�r. Sol/"I mM have said that H1Qy ar1r1 happy with � informarity c,f fi�t n:arnes. t:"IO disrespect 1,n that ooe. Paul Keating has won the· t.Cl$.S tonight, so 1he fir5t ball g::>es to you Jahn Howard . .: ohn. hare you told any lies so far in this c.ampaig11?

JH: No.

RM: Arty ptomis.e5 thit you eqtinot meer?

J},,(: No. . .

RM: Paul, \fr'OUld you agre€, have yoLJ told any lies?

PM: No.

RM: Pro mises you can't?

PM: Our promise$ :af9. half t"le size of the Mr HO'kanfs and f1.1nded twlra over. •• V

RM: Afriaht, lel m� coma to �al the fac::t is. we\·e had hundred of h�tter.s and faxes al'ld lots of phc)r,e. �tis: from people, lots cf t:.alkback radio c:iiso..rssitig tt1ii:. and Australian voters �lie>te thi�t no matter what you two $aY. that if you set into offit::a. that you't!!1 going to basically haggle, Y,:;Jt.1're going to wiggle ot..'t of it. That you won't keep your �ro1-nises.

JH: Well �t won't happ,8n with rne. I mean he's got form. Befor1!11he !sst el,�ion, Ma prom!.sEld I.JS L-A.,W law tax Cl.11s. What did he do? S4.5 billion of �t,ei-n, they disapp,iared i,ito thin air. He promise<:! pensioneirs wouldn·t have to pay any w . x, th.3t promis!:l disappeared, he's f10t .. he's got all the form 'n thQ world on this and thg gr�it diffen3nea. bi.twi!3e.n John Howard and Paul Keating Is that John How-ard will keep his premises, Jc:,hn Howarcl has made affort:'.ebla commitments. Eva:-y &h19\e dollar or the pf'Qmi$eS that I �e mtida to the AI.IStralian peapln nra �oing to b.e kept. L�t rr e remind you Ray, that our family tax. package, which is targeted tc1 l,�w ineome earners atJd is g()iMg ta deliver r-Qlief tc> iow income eamers. That famfl)' tax psek.age is • quarter, a quart�r of V,a size of the l.-1\-W !.tw tax cut pr<:imitie that yQl.1 .$0 frauduhmUy made In tJiE1 l�st eledion. Yov l,:new you c;i::,ulon't :lffot'd thal ...

PM: Wall I'll er:ime to that In ,:i s�nd. \

JH: .. snd yet you .still rnsdc• that promise and the grMt dif:eninO'.:I J:tay, betwoen John Howard &l'ld Paul KeatJr1g i3 that tre promi!S�s I make, I Will keiJJ:I. I 1-mva madG• corr,rnitmenta to t!'\e


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Austrilian � lei , �,, ef those t:¢mm itm ems hr.1v • b$1tn f1.1n ded. the:y havarn been �1b!G1 10

axpcs.a er,y �mes 3 in our costing and s:o f.i.r from ol.'r �,romlses not being proi:,erly ,�,ste d

:and propgrly funded . there's a $ 1 .2 billion hole in ye1wr fore·gn aid commitment. You prcirr: issd to heve Q.4 °.4 fcr aigr, aid by lh• ye ar iOOO. and yi,u'va also r:.omi:,I• tely under�tlme.te=t. t:y

about saoo million th;1 M&di eara rebate $eheml'I.

RM: Alright, �JI come to speeifics . . .

JH: Whtn it eome� to cr4':; ibility of promisu, tt- .ere's no conhnt in this e!e,�on e:arnpaig11 cn ,vGen

John How.e.rd iand PaL I i<.eat lfl[J.

RM: Rrght o Pawl.

PM: At my policy si»ech, I u$e.d the o;:portu.nlty to outlin1!!t :a �hiiosephy Of my fi'arty, the ditealons ­

for Austr alia, wher e 't\'2 would take the country. It 1�s not a grab t,1� of commi tme nt;. Mr

Hov1ard doe,n't !'leliG?\. !!I that his Party or h•. t,ringll .;;ny va[w� or pt,i( o� ophy as a group, 1'hey

think. tr\Qir only way tc1 �tiwer is to bwy it, that' s why his policy spoeeh was an urifundee l gl'tib

�g cf cornrnit.mer.ts. Hfll.s alrlilady tatJi:hing on $1 bi,i!ic;in, Si' thousand million et commltr na'1'lts,

of \\hic:h t.her 4 is a 9ei:,1ng hole of at least $� billion.

RM: Hiiva you h110 the Fin::1nea Oe-part m,n t verify U'\is?

PM: They' werli! Finan� Ot ,�artm ent base figures and it'$ l�lng vmtf'l�d this wee+<. - S� billion ...

JH: Have you spokal'J to UjJ abo ut if?

PM: A $3 biHion !"Ioli!.!.;; or'lll c;::::,mmitme.:its is half that ,sf the C:oalitlon an d tunded twice 011e r on

figures sup plied by the irNSUl'Y and the De partment :if F.i1'1� mee.

m: 9ut l'aul KQ �ting ... PM: So R.ay, jLJst give me tJ�is �llit Ray. Mr Howard's done the cias�[c thing he did in 1 997, when

he was last Lea oe.r, hs doesn't thin k there's any irinat11 stren�fth to his Pi!rty or his oWl"l po:lilioM. They have to buy tr\air W":l'i biacJic :!rid he has do� U,1� sams thlng now a$ ha d:o in 1 987, ,,.,th

mol"le y he dcEu,n't havn.

RM: Wel l you see. what yot. lr� �oing 1or,igrrt t$ 1:.i::1 ct!y "1'1at Au�tra lians ha1;e seen both cf y<,u do

for the last four was!{s. Yo u say ona thing arid ha SG1ys the ct.tier. He says one, •nd yo1J say

ths ether. Will yc, u (liv� Au,tralian voters, botli of you, will :,,at.1 Qi',e Australla11 votJ�r.s a

euar antet• tonight, �.$ Bob C.ur dict in th� NSW el&a i,,n. thl!lt you will reuign lf you break onu of

your election pron,isa.s ? can you mzika that guan.nte1� es Sob Carr did7'

PM: We ll I can make thi$ g;iaran t• �. that evetythinQ we'Ya said wil'll do, WQ will do and agsitt, Jc�M

Ho�d . . .

RM: eut will you m!iQn if you breslr; ont, of those promises'?

PM: Wtill, look, I 'lr'On't be brei.king tham Ray, ac it's just f'\C1t the pi,inL

RM: SQ. )'e.!, yo1..1' ll rS$ Jgn � f )'OIJ're not going \o 'oteak them.

PM: Lst me jurt maka this i: o l nl Mr How3rd tatk!KS 11b out tha L-A•W law tax cuts, the first Melf w1ar•

paid in full, yet he dousti't mind repe-ting that untn.rth . il',e ,,rst half wera paid il"I tu !I, the

!&cond helf 11re goin1;1 ::o b& p2id Into suporannuaticn eceourrt'S and he even 1 1 ys, ha will pay

them hlmsarf, in his ow,, doo.rmetits. So ht's talklng ii:.bout me brelikir,g a CJ:Jmml�nt, \l\a .t ha

himself HY$ wa are hcnounng atid tl'lst h1;1 wilr hOnour. ThG fact is Ray, Mr Hc:,.,vard �rollmied

tax. t;SJts hitMQlf wh&n :,a � Trem;Ul'Qf ai,d took thctn'I away, .::.nd �It ha'a rev8fiolfild lri this .

ql.etiOn eamp•iQri, he can't pey for hi� proml.M!!I.

JH: Paut you fought th& l� t .-1.eiion c:::arnpafgn Qg�inst l.lS on th� b�•ls u,� you s.ard tNSt W'S ·wi•"-

g,otng to put up ta Sit,09 bein� re--e1Gd.i,d, )'OU hs't'e J)ut up :!G taxts ...

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PM: nie tax burden hat not ehru'\Qed.


JH: Not only did yol.l .. rwt cnly did you not da!ivar on tJ,e L-A-W law fully, bL.Jt you J.c:now w,, a:t tl'it1 oth�r thir,g is, you rubbed tJ"ig nona of the .A.ustr�lis1n pc11:1ple in the d irt, by P',Jtting up � wt'l cle !'aft of indirect t�e.s. petrol uei�e, W'\i'ie tax, sal�! tax. You even triad to put a 1 2% t;;x on

oulldfng materla!.s. you vet� fo r a 1.2% rise in ft,Q t:u on b·.iHdln� materials. J votsd agnir1st it. You ar• the hi;h tax J;r,eeialii.t c;f Au$tra flan polities.

RM: Jot'ln Howard, let m• .!$k you the same question, pl,attse, I mean. you've said that in fa :t, you

WC)r,'t break promise . . so I pr•:.umG you agrM to �!i1;1n tf yoL1 breaJii. one of these pn::>miSe!3?

i=IM: Ray, look, why get int:, trlci

RM: W•II it's not a tricky q·.i�tion . .

FIM: I mean 1h11 fJct i, ...

JH: I have no iflttntion of �re;!i-irig the pron'li��.t . ...

R.M: Would yot.J re.sign if yciu broke ..

JH: R�Y. I wo n't break rny promisei .s, the.�cre the questic: n is aeJ&d ttriic.

PM: And neither witl r, but can I just .. about this !'\on e.sty In pcl itic::s. Mr He-Nar d sent a fstter e:Jt to

fo ur million AL1 ilr ali a n s 1. ut week, s.ay in; tJiat h8 ..voL1ld reduce tha t� on s.avi.nas by 25%. Sy hia owt1 won;ts, four milfion. Now n• has dr�Atic:ally cewn n�l•d th.!t promise, nc::rw tt's w,::irth,

fo r somsona or, aver-age waekJy umings , with $ 1,000 o-f st ,..i ngs, 5 cents a wael<. ·rh at

commitment . . . tnat yet four mil!ict, Au$'!T.ilf ans beliewe, that the!lre going to get that o::immrtme nt. I mean, will ht wrlta to fe! ur milticn Aust r;liaM agsin, s.eyin� that /"ti.ta 'P(Jliey

commit ment was basil:aHy fl'aud.w�nt. hs h'-d no intenti,,n of kaepin9 it at\d he might .also tell me, why he ran th,}SO very dishonest ads, abOut Telstra on O'le L3b�t Party, saying tt11't we w�re- going to privatiso 51 % Qf Telstra, or ; P•rt ot it, when in fa ct we wo.� doing somatlilng . . when in faet, Telstra and the Chief &:eeut.iva o( iolstr�. said the:; want to exi,and wtth IBM.

to lat ISM and Telstra proviC:e !hair Hrvicos and �iek up wc;;ri� right 1hro1Jgh Asia for all tha

ttleplione comparti!! ·n Ea51 Asia .

.IH: Pau!, thMK you vary mueh for raising th,;t ...

PM: ! moan . . ..

JH: . . . that adi,.,Qrtlsement of our$ was ele, m�d . . .

PM: .•. what a gigznti e flb.

JH: That advttl"ti5ement. can I just mske thi!l point Ray, I.M t advmtisertiMt ,:,f ours, was elesri,,c:l by

the independent umr,ir;a ouli�g with truth fn ad'vartisi r1g. Yo�r cnallenge-::l it ..

RM: But not by th• joum ali�rt who wrote the etory John?

JH: No, well it was et.antd, � Ne1,11 you're ,:irlv;.ti sini� . . .

PM: Oh come or, John . ..

JH; Ye,u ar•, if you wln el�et lon �ou will or!v;:atJ,e 100 ', l, of Tcil:s1fa ...

PM: That'ia untrue.

JH: Rl;ht at ttie moment, )'O\J �re prim sing 51 % of an 11,ipottant of Tels tn9. ytt you''t·e got

thl norva and gill . . .

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PM: Wo ar• not or1vati1,ing il


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JH: Welt you\,.g got the ner,,Q and the gall to run .! i:..amp;.i!Jn us. I mean · everybadi out there list el"Jinij to t,is pl'Cgrtim knows wr,.at yo� !5:(fd about the Canim onwea lt.h B:mk. v.hs.t you

said about Canta$, wh�t you said about Austra Airlin1ii$ ancJ everyona knows th:H If you win the elec:t iori, you won't sell a third of Ta\$ 1.ra, you'll .sell 1 t-0% af it.

PM: Ray, on tl'le �01111 of hoM$ty in politia . Mr He,wiar d ha$ -.amttan to rour !'T'liltion At111.r alia�.

telling them hs'll C.-Jt the tax 011 savings t;iy 25%, I've got the letter in my pockQt, if r,, .. d Ilk& to

3ee it, and yet. wha11 no the poliey, It wa�. nothtng cf the .sort. He'g mpeated

tonight. that the G ovemm•nt would privntiS& S1 % of a part of Telt;tnz, where !r, fad 1'elstra's Chief f::(ecuti1te said, we·re arnbu11cing IBM. who make compi.rters in Australia and IT e qtJipmsnt to exp3nd our businesa, with them, into EJ.St Asia. it's e:xr,anding Telstra. not se,lling it

expa11dlng it, Qnd yet you ran tnou sliamafuf. d!!{;tae.eNl ad�.

JH: There wa.e; nothing shameful abo1.Jt our aids.

PM: Wt, tl they are.

RM: wa, th.:at ;:a lie Johr1 HQ\lo'�rd?

JI-I; Ev12ryor,g knows tl1at you . . . overyona knew.s P.a�I. you� form on privatisation. Yo1.. 1 �"2.Y ot1e

thing before �n els ::t ion.

l-1M: Yeah bi.J't l s:a.y it.

JH: You wrote to every member Qf lhe Commonwealth l�nk 5mi,ioyee s Union in -, :�90 as

ire.a.surer, !Wtaring and deeloirlng that under no cir1;1,,1mstanees. would you privati!a the

Commonwea lth Sa�. We �d the honttty and tha decanc:y to put •:>I.JI' pcliey on the tatile. you

didn't, and what did you do after tn• election, you isold half c3f it .ind then after the 1 99:3 ,�!action l'l�ving �m and ded�ted yeu wo uldn't nll the other hatf , in ti', e d�.id of night. bmo re Q

B!Jdget, you pri¥ati.3 � the rest of it. Nobody oe!leves yoLir word.

PM: At tho l.i'lt GIE!cii(:1'1 John . . . ,

Jr!: W'Me.n it eome.s to �ri'J .atb ;Qtion, you heven't got any et1di�ility .m alL

PM: At the last r.J�ctlon r wrote to the TeleceimlT•lstr <1 employi:i'� and told thi-m tns t we Wt11.Jldn't be

Mlll ing end � eidn't. In thl!I course of thsi Perllamant we didn't and you ktlow th�rt Wi'ltin � you sell iels1ra yo�l'Jl v� nd;f ise it and dismember it . . . f' RM: Can I 8!k ...

PM: Yo u'll rob it of it$ place In Asia and you will end up with t111,ed �hone �lls ..

JH: You ar• getting onto .something . .. but ybu sar• on ho�a!ess ground 01, this.

RM: L.!it'S mc,ve on. C1m I ask y¢u �t's u,e gi�r 4111� ... 'Why is it <>k�y to pri¥t1ti se 1:l/' to !!ell

Qarttu and th! CO:Timonwealth Sank and ANL and tho eirports, b\Jt not Telstra?

PM: Simply becauu tl"i1t CommoMW!l>alU, 8an:k is on• o, four eluring c;an ks, it, one of faur major

bt nkt, it used to bu e P.&,erve 8�nlr.. but whon the �e.ssrve Bank came in tMe Comrnor1WGaltn

�s r,c:, long"r a R•urve 8a!'lk thore was no e.ausu to keep it in =ublic

RM: What �ut airport H and ANL. lines . Qa ntH'?

PM: Ca.n l :u1y ebout Q ai,ta�. Qs n1'u1 - Auatr �lla 's 541rv8d b�· Qar,u&.s, t:,y .MHtt lrumrnaticnsl and

about �5 olhar airiir�. In oth•r wcrds Qan tas ,., j1Jst Q ecmp etitor in a servica Sy$tlilm.

RM: You don't think ru t ,ypoerit1C:QI to say ti\ii Ii ok.iy on ol'le but not on the otha�?

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F'=M; it·ï¿½ not s matter of l",:, pocritie2t. R4y. T�l• ha,- J,een 8 tnassiw m1::iMc:ipoly for a centi.JrJ', h;u

got a mas sive Qrip on our telecomrnuri ,cati i=n, . lt Is all we',;a ever had fr om ree&ntly in telQCOmmuni�tip1,s and to sail it · to 1,t Brftlsh Telecom to ti• $0 rr1uch in the CJ...Jlt ural cting a,

to lat Sritial'I T9le<:.o1"L1 o r AT!. T or S�Mnt or CM COl'!'Ul u'I .ancl control . ..

JI-! : . . . th e,.. is n o wi!Y th.u earl h1 r,pen.

PM: . .. what's taken LI$ a century to b1.Jlfd ui:, ...

JH: ... There ls no ""11:; tl'�t can hapP9n.

PM: . .. l!i disgraea f..: 1.

JH: Tn�t is jtJSt - I rnea,, you'r!t lhe bloxe wtie sold �!S% of c,�ntas to British Airways. "'(C)rJ talk

abolJt a cultura l . .

PM: Yes, to it stron:;er

JH: Hijng on, H�.ng on .. you tne Srlts, you all,�we-d 25% of OMtas ta be sold to Elrlllsh


PM: I did.

JH: Under cur Telstra �of Icy . . .

PM: l did.

JH: Undar 01,.1r Telstrl!J pol icy, no more than 12 % of the c,mpany c:al'I be $Old overs.e a� • no rtfQi'8

PM: In 41�ch tr.anche ...

JH: No more, nobody - M loek don·t ll'lten'UJ:)t Noocdy �:an ...

PM: In ead"t tral'ldit . . .

RM: John I think ,,.,..·ve done enough on Telstra.

JH: Y&ah well I mean don't be

FM: I-la'$ going to do Tel,tra alrigf'lt

JH: No. no. no you'll !ell 100 % of il

RM: John HoWlltd, what �,:,out thca fa� that yow hav& to ru;alise r,:,w , anyonE! In Au!Strali a weul1:;i t,r;r,ow

thlt c.e<::au.s& you ere not going to win the Senete, u,,at you ·ï¿½"On't h::ave an envircnmental p::illey, you won't bQ &b!e to m, 11 Telstra because . ..

JH: Yes wa will, )'G$ wa "i!l

RM: Why? Th• Greens ai,d the Oemoetats hav• Ai� no.

J}1: I ha'ia no doubt that i:; 1 you pi.Jt .••

RM: Do ycu knO'W eomethlng that Cheryl Kemot doosn't knCM' Jo/iti?

JH; tr w• don't 9lilt c:ol"rtt!!1I of the Senats, people will ft.1!.e a choice b.�,n e. 1 oo cr 4 Gov*l,,i 'n!Ml

owner.ihip of Tel� as it i� plut and no erwiroM'\ GtilJiil, end no envlron:-n 1,rita.l

p.-!ck.lge, the ztltemi!!lt:ve wHI bo Ge% Gi:1vemrnern °"m .rahip and U'lereftltc Govemrn&nt 1:xntro l

of Telstr a.

RM: t1 that b!ackmtil?

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JH: That's not b!iae.l( mitil. Its Just � statamer H off.a�

RM: 9ut can't pao � I$ h.av�., eci environment=! policy � lu& �-vn T�l:�tr.?

.JH: W'hat p�e pJ& s�m �,cmGUmes to forg et ls thet 'N9'ra not !allin g Tei.stra out cf Govammnnt ownet!hiP. Under our policy there won't be ar, y untimed, yc,u li:.rK,w tM ,are will be no dia, �1e as

far �� tha c:alls �.ra eone.iam•d.

PM: Oh come OM.

JH: Cempleti,fy unti mcid call$. There will .stlll be tha pri�� eap, . . 1'"r'tQre INill still be all the

protect.ion for J'8 ti p(o living in the bl.I .ah. And there is no w:ay in tho world )' Ol.l �n sta p .a

Govemment /eQi&hinir·g for tnose and w-s wm leg i�Jate to prcivit'J.e peo ple with protection, ${, th• real cnolce will b• ti, lvt'een l;ln the one hand So% Gov,u nrnent owner�hi p o'f Te lstra plu�i the

!::est envlronmMt.! I pe cl

anvironrnen tal pack.a �Ja. New in th oSQ circums ; I heli•Dv� that t.h,e ov•rwh •!rni ng rr1gjorlfy of j:)e ople in thii. eomm1 .mity 'MlQ ear• abOut cur environment and that goes ri ght acn�sa all

generatio n� . the y will $ey to the parties in the Senalt , inci t.1ding tris La1'Qr Perty , tha y w!ll say

wti y should you � ass !JP the oost en'ilronmfintsl c:ol icy in fl1't ;• yearn just for the sake Of a :33 end

a third c:i er e.ent difrerenc.e in the l•vel of Govamment O\ll'T"lershi p. We'rs not talkil'l g about

�elling Te l:stre 1 00%. Your tho cloki! who �t! to sal! 1 00%.

PM: It i� blec.kmaif R� y. I mean the environment is 2 meiristream Australian iss1.1e. It de!etve.!i to b9

treated in its own rig h l Funded in its own right. Ta�.en Ol"l ia;rio usly in its own ri ght Bt.t{ to be

used as soma SQr't of 1,awn. !Ome !Ort of for the, Liberal y to g et its ideclo gieal .. na y, to

vandalise Telstr'-11 me,�s that its eril y Hp sarvi� th�1y Mve pa id to the environm�rrt and that

sq vares with tye ryt hi,"lg Mr Heward has a.lwa >' s: �icl. He's atways 0 � 1 po sed tho thi ngs ut!bor

ha.s done, M'S alwa y!r att.aoked us for it, he'9 81We ys said wo'ra obsessed with the environrnent and yet he trl•d to put thi$ ewer, ha was � bom a gain g rHni ,a whe.n h�',i ntiver had an y ir1te1r sst Ir, it ...

JH: Th�t·s not the view of tna Wildemi;S$ Socie ty .. it ...

PM: It'$ all on the ba.si3 thE1L MCI is really ju-,t simply � t.!lr:::tlc and i devie.a ti:, Hlf Telstra.











I mean could I j1.,1st ,a r on that Rei y that our Ql'ffn 0"8 :lential� ; nave b�n verrned - don't takE! my word fer it, tm.e the word of the Wildt�S:S Soelt ty .

The Au:tra 1lar, CenM.'V.!tlon movement ar•n't with yc,ui'

Can I sa y on this occ..l i ior'l . . .

'Tha Greens arsn't with you?

Well the Greens is a .. e ry diver!A organi sation • .and the Wll d,::!1114!!$ $«ie ty . . .

But tne y' ro not s o diYHU they'v& given i:rnJir preferenCOl,S t o ihe Leiber fJart y7

Ne, S(lme cf them h<1·1 t. Ne:, cut the Wildarnes:s Soel� ey haM't.

\\'h en you tninl< thtrt lr1 '87 tnd '90 and '$3 , ho h5ld tne Or�11s if'\ Oi: bO£l the wtiole tlme. l�ow

on this oeeas!Ol'I wt,at th fty' va 8$!ientlell y Mid - all of them have said thtnt they like our policy ,

ttlt y � nisa lt i, thE, best. Soma of them ""g unm ppy witJ-1 the link, s,:irnt of thgm 2.t0 . ..

Well thst't an undor, t aten1'urt , !.he fact the y've g iven their proforenCWJ . .

But R�y l:t!a Wlfd1mt•;11 SOcioty ...

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PM: They' ve put you fest John.

JH: Thst Wildemeu S0C\E1ty wnicn hu p•oi;il& en the ground .. .

RM: Md the Gr�en� and t,e Oemocn1ts have gi ... en tht!ir F'.)t�rences . . .

JH; But that's tl-\e i:,olitic:al erm of the GrHn movement . l'1'T\ talking abo\.Jt tl"l�i ...

F'M; ThG ACF .. .

JH: Sut 1n t'ie •M these t.:,ings det9ttn ined by voters and Wliat I am �ying i$ triat the voters at

Aus�1ia - if win lhis QfSctl=n .. will have Q m�nd.ite for tM•� environm el"\t, 'will have � miaMst a fo r 66% Govem.msnH �wrH 11rshi� of Telstra

RM: But John it couldn't t£.: any dearttr.

JH; I thlnll: they wil( hiav• t•:i a� to that mind.ate.

RM: It couldn 't get any cl,�rer from Cheryl Kemot and the Cemwets and the Greens that in fae:t you don't their v,Jte. Lats mova on.

�M: ihe AC!= Ray, i:$ goir;g to put t.ha Lib;ua! f:ll!t'ty l..ast .and so will I.he Gr�eris, b&ca.use thJ)' are

not serious about t1i1, mw ironmcnl All the thing�; we h.3Ve dOl"'le in the last P;r liamont -

Shoalw-atar Bay, Jer{s B.ay, u-,« Hele in the HAart elf the Daintr! e. Sbelboume Say. all tl�ese gr-eat icons. or Frankl in they've a!l been don• by the Labor P.; rty .

RM: Pat.JI I would like to tntk. about the cna issue. Toe i�lngl� i:!$.U.e that I ha\la t'iad in !ti tters and

phone a!lls and fax!.s ft'!;lm erdirtary Australians over Uiese last twc> wee� has b�n hQw

app2!lled they are aboi.l't the selling off of the farm of Australi:3. That its r,ot just tlie Ta lstta thing - its Sp.1edo 1 and Arr, ott·â€¢ biscui ts and Veg emite and Pacific nLJ.Mtoi::, t!nd Birdu ya - all tJ,esa U,in;* that � thc:iu9ht w•rt Au!'t.rali� ieons . Wny haven't you stopp&d that? Wny did you let

ove�aa!I e.ompany buy tho�?









But we -.wtnt �nd boUiJht neirly SOO billion of c�l\'.IU �s.smts. A d�1da QQO wo had 4 bflll cn of overseas i.$$�t.s. Clwr gre�t l;l0mp�ie$, eur btawMies, our t,Qr,.sport comp21.nias, the lfkE?.S of Sr1tmb!�, TNi, SHF' th�)' h:3Y9 huge cYSrt�.& .!JS,S1,1t11 :ii.nd wa\rQ Qp.4f\Qd the AI.J$1 t'i!liar'I

e�nomy up snd . . . .

People would say you\,13 sold us om

No, r,o_ HQve e loo�: at t1"te big eompsnlas. The big eort ipanies a1'1i, growing. BHP hi!d ia

capl1il isation when th! Govemment e.ame to office- of about S4 to SS bil.lion. you xnow wt.:at It Is

today R1y? S.38 bl!llo:,.

Polities is abOut peree ption. The �ption is t.het ·w� .are l1:istn9 these: icons, all the t/\ir1;:i we

grew up wm, as Austi�llan are now owned by fotejgnsrs.

But W&'ra alsQ bU)'ing thciir bLU�ine.No.s. and growin9 in$.!�$4ili ""II e.ti:rund thG world Bn:i: "' a

ci::,nsequc;ince � will in the and bl!, AtrdhgGr.

Oo you h!.ve any idtt8 . . .

But thes fffl i9 R.iy. w " ate runnin; ei currant ecccunt defle l': �md its �c:t to be funded eit�e� by debt er by ownerehip r!tld many Au$tr'a!le M ...

So 'W8 sell trlf the fam1 to �?

No- Y� sell some trln;s t)Ut you else grcr lt' th� ect)flomy t'mrt11r. Thh is not G 5mall a;,yntry,

th.ere ls 1 S r,,fllior'I of u; lf'J a eontln1tnt I m� if we ,,.-ere th,9 ,ame si%1;> 011 tM Natt>orht rrd:1 .,,..

-NtjutdTJ't n00d tho �> for the ;.;co ml!� raifw;iy llne. tt,a 111i.n�. the perts, ttte wtuarvc�,. tho

big ventur" • wo'll ar.�� n&()d c::i,pltal, Ray.

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JH: The only way you e,a;'l �op this is . . .

�.M; 'r"ou favour It � you dcin't mind it do yoiJ.

JH: I'll te:1 you wr;st I do l'avo1,1r, running trn, economy t><,t"tar � you don't hS'll'a this probl l!.m. H• at

IHst ad

aeeount dafieit now for tMirtesM yoarn. you'vo Nid triirteen ye.Qr.; ta ·fix the probl$m tha:� you acki,owled�e d nil"\Q )'t: •rs ago would mak• I.J$ a bar.en.a re$ltJblic and its na b�ttor now cl.Md the �ue.stion a lot of Aus tnlia rt� want to know is that if you h13ven't beet1 able to fix it In thirteen. y�2rs, what chanea have you got to tb: it if you get re1--tih9C'1 Qd? Now until we tackle the problem

of tMe �rrent aceowr.t dsfi cit ;ind you've. got t=eklo It on two fronts. yo1J've set to do something about SQvinQ$ Md you've ;ot to do something abotA reducing tha �t of doing buslnen.s, and we had � saving� lnltiativ• 2t tM weekend that you clerided.

PM: 'Nhie "l will dc:i noti'ling, Which will do flOt�ing.

JH: Appar�ntJy you dcrrt •,i.,ant to gi't'liil av•r�• AustmliarLS a bit 1� an ir1een l:!ve.

PM: It won't wcrk.

JH: Low i.ncorne Au�trii'llia "\� � bit cf inc.!iinwe to &.ave, U,1� oth�r thing v,,-e'11!!! got ta i:io i$ to fLX triln .. s like Industrial Rt!ati o11s, now we all MQW that tM vnrr of triis ,;faction camp-itign i1s 6111

Kelty and ths mo� $i{;ni1lcant thing that has happen,� sine.. n you �nd I mst two Wl3eks a�10 wa! tl'ia t disgracetul piee. u of blae.kmail by Sill Kelty wil' , your endorssmE1nt four day! ago \lw'hen effe et ively he said to the Austn�li. an �liilo�/e, if you d.ara sre, :t thr. Cc8lition we'll t�r the ;:,laea apart.

PM: That's not 'J.l't'\at he s21id. He didt'l't s�y that.

"JH: an!;i you stt:iod th�te nnd you endcrtsd it, you put yt;iur -'11'1'' �round hlm and you Mid that - it was an etrr ont to Democracy. We don't run a one party :itato In this ..









In Mr Haward':!! first Headltind Speech wh� he �id that "'• 'Na.S going to set ths dirfi,dlons

whet w.a� hi$ policy - what WM the big iSliue, th$ cummt ae:1::ount c!-ifie4t and savic,g!, what has ha dom�7 M�de ft -wc r i.o. He'$ now gcing to zn election wl'lera he is going to s�r'ld bet ween 56 and S7 billion i:.rt f�mding he ec:iesn't have. 1nste.:1d of Ptlttlng it off ·the Budget io msi..:e the

�vings bettQr, hiii i�i ba!'! ioally no-N nakod 111 tl1E! �l•ctk:in c:ampai ;n Wtthout �r,y of the

phllcsophy, with out a,1 y cf the convicti ol"I, h@'$ got p¢Jie.i ... c� �nv'1nior 1ee, he's bi.s ly a."b out to V81'ldalia. art Ausb'�11iat1 Sud�et

I don't think the worm would even swallow I mun you've been in power for 1 3 ye41-s. net me. Don't blame m� for your �rrQnt ae.eoun t dofic.l-L To::rt'� whet yo�1'rn doing now. I mun

what a nerve. you're the bfoka whose ...

Yotiro 50 rude John.

... t.een Tr&as .Jri.r or Prima Ministsr for the IA1Bt 1 3 :rears.

Jonrr. you don't need tci talk over mt.

You've effl'I in Go11 emment ...

... sncl l'v• boon in Op:,o ,ition. and yo!J'rl!J bl-'lming mo for t!"ll.l, currant Gce.ount dancit.

Lli!t me juat iay thus. R.1 y. On this point abcut � o.mrent ae.c:ount oeflci'L What's the onra greAt

�vfrrg$ initi3tlv9 ttuit the Goveml"n'!lnt hat cum apiart ttm, the Bud9et surplus - �nd ttiiat'o

s�ranm-1 1tlon � univ �r-ool cup$1"8nnua tion - which s1/r1ady l't!2$ $320 tlill lon in aaub a12 a ll'\St

$1 80 bf!lion offorv!gn debl s1 eo bilUor, of for eign d• bt- �?O bllllcn of superar,l'\IJ=t.ion f!Sj)Gtg

6 £ : 9 1 9 6 , E 3 � 8 2

t:J I IQ .::i:;; Qel

2 81. 0 � ' 96 0 1 : 2 7 ,S 0 6 2 1 3 Jci l O O

@J 0 2 8


going to $1 trill ton - :1 1000 blllion. And what's v,, , first ti'1ing Jor,n l-1owsrd did li!ist woel<.7 Hg

�id h.e'll undo the univer"lity, hQ'II lat ptopf• OlJt or it, l-J9'l/ start t,re.akln g It up. Thi.s: i$ the comm1tmunl he mal�s to savings and the current .a � unt Q$fieit.

RM: All right, let'� pidt: U::> the Issue whieh )'CU . . .

JH: (inaudibla)

PM: . .. 81'\d Ort about Mr l

RM: Sorry Paul, Wtluid a 30% pay in,:.,re ase wrec:k the At,scraHa n economy·>

PM: Wh�t hapi:ianed w.rn th�t Mr K•ll.y � the preamble of hi$ rerne.rb - w-&re not P\,lblished. \M,at ho &'.!ld wa.s this: if Mr How2td Wal'lts a market fr" for af1, if l'\e -wants what he ealls a n�::imind !flbour men

RM: I! this ,ar, epof09y'?

PM: No, l'IQ.

RM: Did everyone gat it 'l' ng?

PM; Na. no.

RM: S&c::auta av•ryo no rc:port&d the �m• thing.

PM: Wh8l'e he said: �veryone let hf}r rip, -.irti�t Mr K!!5lty r.a id Wi!S i1 wa're ttm.1st Into that. if wm h$ve

a collap sing labour tr.erxot and a collap,fng wage system. w� will do what eive ryr;ne el!$ will do - like th� cliiof QXeo.tlvea: are dolt'l9, like the middl,i mal"l!�e r; at"Q d��l!".g, we'll do tha !\!Rime -

and the strong Unions wii! get •..

RM: Should you kici< him off lhe R&$..-Ve Bank Board 31ttr he ta!k@d abOut indu�r ial 'Wl?r end a �%

!Jay lncraaM?

PM: B�u$.I! I.he suU,or of the policy is st.,indin g In fn:mt of me - ,John Heward - he's the perscn ...

RM: ls it responsiblQ for sc,meona to say that who's on a Heu rve1 Bar\k 80.ard?

PM: Well, is it r8$ponsi t::l e fer chief exeieutive$ to pic:k up $2.3 million d year? Is it

respcn.3ible for so� people to hav� paci0ge.., with $1 7 million worth oi options'? Js that


RM: Could thg l!lconomy cmry 30% or even 20% pay incr� ase.s?

PM: It would tilow the infl«tion rate to plecas. John Hows1rd krio,1/S tl'lat .ina l that's why hi! Pol it:y to

go back to wheni he 'WS in the 70s - witl'lout Qn Ae.:ord - I, leek .s;it frls UnfQns. W$'11!

�tttlng th•re now, whe re Ir,• rut Patli•ment thty've restrained their wsgGc5 and pred\.101•d li

3% underlyl ni imtat101, rat• • a 3'� unde rtyln� inflatlcn rate and 700,000 jo:tis 9rt;.1Wth .. SC0, 000

ef ttiose Jobs are In small buslno.. �. 500,000. Why daN John Howard want to sttadit ,m?

\Nhy doer hi; want to ccHapsa the t�bour markat'? Vl/hy �o m, ht Wint to 11ttick Unions. Jr Ii�

�yu ht wents QM ope1, tra; for Gll, why dQe.e ho think. UniOl'l! should th en My: well, in tha'.! c:ato

W8'll pull cur head in.

JH: Ray, Ra)', Ray, y,:11.(y ;;1 let h!m ha'le a go. Hang on. tria attacking wa.s done by Bill K,�lty.

Nobody got It �nQ, :; nd your pathetic r.:te .tr1pt to explain lt a·w;cy imprus�.!I nobody.

PM: Oh, tl'talik )'OU.

Jf-4: 'A/Mt l

. ... .. . � . .. . . ' . .. . - ....

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PM: I like you too.

JH: What Kelty did las1 W1>ek . . .

PM; I Ilka ye1J too. I l!ke y1�u too, mete.

1 0

JH: 'vVhat Kelty did lait ..,,.,,"1 1<. w:ai vory, VQ,Y -,imple. \fv'h;t h·! did 'y\1';3' to �ay to t.ha Au� tr.alian

people, ff you havQ tNa ngr,.,� or th• gall to evari e.o11t ;ampl:.ste Alacting 41 Co�fition Gov8tT'ltT!a/"\t we're going t.o tip the p!, :a�flrt. You knew tind I il.l'IOW tl'1ta. t If we wi" the t! l ectlOi'I, U,e Tradg

lJnlon movement will work wltn lJS. Kelty told Pater Reitn, J-Je sald� if )' O LJ wrn the eteaion ......e'II have to worloi With you.

PM: He d•nied thnt.

JH: We migl'itn't lilt • it . . .

PM: He deniod t."\ iat.

JH: Wall, �t in otne:- wcm:1.s you think it's perfealy legitlmat&?

PM: N o.

JH: Oh, w&!! you don't?

PM: I'm jtJst ...

JH: Well, wt'iy did you en�lct'$� lt then?

FM: Let me just say this. 1r you win the election .. :

JH: Kelty runs )'Ou •.•

PM: Well, don't talk all ni gr, t .

JH: No, r,g, you hJd a very good t\.lt'l, Paul.

PM: If ycu win the eJectior. . ..

JH; Corna on. you h;d a ,·ery good

PM; ... wages Will ...

RM: It's a bit likQ PairliAme ."lt isn·'t it?

PM: Wage.s .....;11 ...

RM: lt'.a a bit like Parliiflme,,t here. Wou[d you like to Just tr• line. and thQM W1!'H go to P::ir. 11?

JH: Yes. Leo�. you �n' t i;a,ny th� fad that wh�t B U I Kelly did la�t we sk w;;1s to lntlmid31.e af'l(;f 1:)1.Jl ly

trn, A!Jwalian pt-op le. Ha behaved es thQ1JQl"t this ,� a c,n&-Party State, and he was Sh'T'l'PIY

!ty ing to th• Auw ali:m people: if ye>\J d.1rt even amtempl1:1te elftctina • Coali tion Govemrntnt

we'll ttat tha p!ae.a a� art.

RM: All right

JH: And you stood thtre, ·,-ou ondorsed ft ;ind now yotJ'rQ trying to sqvinn c:Jt of it.

RM: John, ycu've had. • fair go. Wh«t's the aMw&r to tMl?

PM: If yoo'te ,1oct1W to otnce, John, then,'IJ bo " W1l� bro�koU' l Th• 5trong p$0pJa will bnw.ak -out

ond the woQ.k will g"t nothing.

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JH: I thought v.1 were going to t:ut W'!{ge .s ?

PM: Yes, you will. ,

JH: We!!, rt\Jk. e up yc1i mind.

PM: Down tl'le ti�ttom :mu'll �t wages ...

JH: Oh, I so• ...,...·re gi:;lng to cvt them . . .

PM: Just lat me . . .

JH: ... arid incraa se th ,m all �t the same time.

PM : Yo1.J''w'e h.!.d your s ;y.

RM: John, ptuse.

1 1

PM: What wH! happen is thirt th� stron; wl ll 9et h1,1.9e wage and the middle and t.h ; weak wi ll get nothing. Vou wYill blow the infi�Uon rate, and wt,en you do it up Will go intore:rt rates.

For every pert. F.mtf1ge point of initation ...

JH: Ar,.d you knCNr all �; high interest rates. don't you?

PM: ... w,a go to anot.hi,r pe::r �ntage i:'Jolnt on rates. The fact thi1t we've got low interest

ratG.S now I�; se of tM�t IC"W irtflatlo n rate. 'M�an you were last in Govemment. thta inflation ra te was 1 0% to 1 1 % - it's naw :an unde�lying rat�i of 3%. \A.r'hen you ware lalt in Govamment. inte�st r�tos paal

ar,d tl'\e boUom end people will 9et lost - and ;l$ :a o:,ns�<: ruenee .....+!2i� wi ll ha�pen is that W2ges

wi lt brask out, inflation will break out, and ir.tlrH1. r11te.s ,vill be up - and tl"ie �eserve Bi!n>: wlll

jump on you and the whole econom y, and gririd the whole ba:::Jc:. to 2% with l':i;li intorast mes.



Ray, I've got to have an opportunity to expf;in. This is ct:>tning from tris bloke W'ho g,a·t't us the wcret re� ssion in tSO year�.

No. you did - in , $0 1 .

J H: The worst r•�.s!o ri in SO y$ars, :;o\.l ser,t one million F)e'()ple on tQ the unemployment �ueue!,

and you'va n�vet one.a apotogiud for it. You'va never or1ca exptotied a word of r, for the dema;e you did to 5mall busin8.$S, you'ra tM t:,loke IM'\O pr&lldec! t,var all of that. and you'rti lecturing me. Mer all, I have et in this etectinn campaigr, !ddr eined the problQ!i1 c,f youth uMmploymant Ye u'"e be-en In p�tr fer 1 '3 years, you nf:fJJ have a ,1tuaUo n whtr4t In �cme ;are'l!.! of Aus1t11/ie you t,av a youth Ul"Jemploym1rrt rates crf O\ltr 50% • and tho only �i&('S on ir.

this el11aion e:arnp.a ign wtida put fo�rd e pclicy b) eddre� youth ur11 ,mploym•rrt ls ttm ..

PM : Yes, cutting their w.!ge�.

JH: I. I. l. I, I am not cut:ing wages . . .

PM: Cl.ltting their wsss.s OJtting tM!r wag!! . . .

.JH: Thet's a lla, yi;:,1.1 k.rmw thal

PM: Cuttir,� young p;op!tU' v.-a gH.

JH: 'That i.s. a com1:,1!1te 1 ·c and don't interrupt

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PM: You're mgking it easy to s.acl< tha m.

1 2

� 0 2 9

J H: l 3rr, PYtling fa1:'md a policy that wl/1 get small businas.; 90/ng .11,;ain - that peopl111 }'Ot..1 said

ought to s _ et out o ( u, . �lt�an if I.hey couldn' t st.ano th a - ltle f:)tOple who you S1'lf,utld at

$rnall businessmen .'.Ind women of th/.$ tountry an.a the en�ins room of the economy ...

PM: You're not nie.e lor,ioht. John.

JH: They're the enginc1 room of job-gentrttion ...

PM: You're not nic::s tonight.

JH: . . . and until yov Qet small buslnest going again, you'ta nc1t going to rock co youth

unemployme nt.

PM: C.n I 5ay ...

JH: That Is the key ...

PM: Ray, ...

JH: ... to tectucinQ youth \Jrt&moloyment and getting srriall bu!a,iness goini; s!gatn.

RM; We've. had ebou! fve minutes c,r, thi$. thi$ i� prob;1bly eMugh .

PM: On smsll busine.s 3 a ccriple Of points. W9'Ye h.2(:l 700,000 jotHi irl thi! l�$t three YCJW'$ -

S00.000 of tnern came frem �mall bus,nes� .. lt'$ :;Jn�ady wQt kin9, Small busin�s� rs alre.ady -we!I in t�rt11, What triey nnd • tJ'lQy Jivo off the b.ody err the econom y - .......tiat $mall bu!inH .s

l'lee-:i s Is a srowtl'I �t:.0/"l OmY With lew inflg tion :and l�w ff'l, terest rat oi�. and they need 1:>r.otection from big eomDaniu. Now, in the Sen1to John How:u d - in the l�·wt fc.w morrtns of thi, year -voted �gainst our arnsndme iit!l for unconsclon.�bla �nduct in t lie T�d� Practici:.S Ad to

protect small business again�t larse companie s. Ha sa, .s he's fo r !:mall business but tie won't pr-oteet them whern it matterl.. Alrl!!edy they'-.& cr,�ated rrio$t of tho rlmp l oyment. end 11rhat'5 hls policy to help sma:1 busiriess? To make it easier to �ek their empl1�yee.s '3nd thtir empleyee'-' ehild r•n. As If th� t·s to cnang• on• thing in 5m8}1 bu�ines.!, VVhat's going to matter tc

small bugin&ss is gf'O\Nth, � stab!• !Qbour mair1<1?t. st.a.tile wage outt:omes. low infl13tion. lew

int�rest ratet, al'ld not bein� b-tlt�d iliOt.lnd by big eomp,;11,ies. That' s what's going to tMttet.

RM: You 've obviously tiad a e.'i anco both t"Q $8Y it in trie <::am�iaig n. Just ln a word, are, you �aoing to ( q1.1asn. get rid ot t�,e unfair di.sniis.Y!.I legi!:l�t ion'?

JH: l'rn goin9 to make ;t f�ir - to both sides.

RM: Ara yo1,.1 goir.g to gst rid of tJ-10 pf'"&!ler 1t laws?

JH: I'm goii,9 to �et tld of Laurie Brereton' g law • yes.

RM: Okay, let·s ...

JH: But I'm going to r!l pl�ca It wtth one that's fa ir tc:1 bQtl"\ �.,�. It's not f'Qir to hm ,e 2 !,ltuation

wh �& somebcdy who ;ets lced for .Bttafln� c:an bring e claim fo r unfair di$.n'\issal on the

grounds that he !ll iou!d h:.rve been warned � or thre� times that stealing was unac:o!ptM)le. That is trie stupidity of lhG IQW wt hew, et th1' . .

PM: I n cttier wordi, ...

JH: Thi$ law et t.ha mc: ment i• more coneemod wlth proeoaui-al falmou thM It ts with th• "'terits.

wam a 12W • and I promis. , the people of Austran;� that I wil l rtpl29� , the presti!nt f(htf with a IS'N

that ls fv lr to both 1.n& �m�loyer gnd thf! emp!oy£Xl . I don't wanl and I won't deliv!!!r a free for QII

- 1 'll'titl deliver Q l:t.v wt,lcli ts fa ir to both sides. You tallc tibeut ira1d• l'ntCt.iCO.$ Act, Poul, the

thing tMt pooplo . . .

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1 3

R..ay , wo've already . ..

Just J•t me frnit'lh, h al"l g on.

Y<:1u've t,ad a tait {:10 for the moment You talk ;st>out fiel".ibil lty in the J:abour A lot o! r'l& opts £Qa that as sirn�!y Just the right to fif"IIJ . . .

No, it's not.

. . . to hire and firs i:t1 will?

irs not, no. No, it':; not.

What's the proteefon?

Well. there's an a:J.!ol ute protaction und!r our µ::: Hey. If you go lrito a wo�plaee i!greement undar us. you mvu be given at least in t�l(e,;.homa pay terms ths v1:1.lue of the Aw3rd. We ar-e not · I rep�a:t - not golng to cut people's wages ...

You are, you are . . .

Don't believe th e Labor Party.

You are, you are.

You're desperate fm a line in this c::ami:,aign, Paul ...

You are, you ar-'9 .

... but the one thing you c:annol run ...

Just as you are !yip,; aboL1t yo1Jr �O$ition er, Medicare ...

You've argued fo r i : for years - you've argued it for ye'3t$, John.

I was asked ;a question.

Well, you'Ye beoel'I npHklng fer ona minut e at this point

No, no, no, no, no.

For a minute and ; h�lf .

You· ,..,a t,een rabbi ting on the whole ni�ht. As f s.r as our ir1dusttial rel�lcin$ pol!cy is cenc:.emed, lhors ;., no way on earth thtit anybody wtl o goes 1.,to a workplat:.41 B!Jreemsnt can be \li,lid I�

in bkc- hom� pay tE1n1'$ ...

No--en• to police it.

... lhQf\ tn.y would 1-eeeive 1.m der ths A',1(8 rd.

AJI riQht.

Ray, can I just . . .

No way o n i;zartM . . .

usit wctd.

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JH: That' s an ;bsolut � gua,:lntee.

� O J l

PM: Can I ju$t deal wttn ttiis point. I think tM I� should b11 syc;h th�t emplcyer3 .ShQ'.lld t,., able to

dismlg� peo�Je, b.Jt rio t unf;iirly dismi.$.S thcam - .1rrd wa'w! rtl!de ;mendment, to th$ A.ct ...

RM: eut it's ptatty subJec:tiva?

�M: . . . which most ot the employtar bodles haye iupported. But th!� k•y point is on l,"ldw l!tri 11I relation�. Jc,hn l-low-ard's going to pu&h p�pl• on to individu:al w�ge e.ontr;cts heJ�otl�t ed in .u 1cret. without ar,y eol l�et ive right to�aiP\ v.iithoLrt w,y sup�ort from a Union. anc: · without the umpire - th 9 Au5tn1lian Industrial Reletions Ci:immission - being �bl� to vat me arrangements. \"i /hat this wlll mean R sy, is as I s.aid tr1e time! we rn11t - if an 19- yruir o!d

person faces an e mp!oyar, wh:it bargaining po,it:on or strength do they havl'!I"? Toey ll take lhe contract or tri e y w�n·t get the job.

JH: That i$ « com �l et!i distortio n.

RM: Tl'l9 Australi.1n al1dier,� tonight .. onet a9ain they sea you saying blac)( l$ Wt'tlte: ond you

saying white is tlfac k. vVn.o do they believe?

JH: H&'s get the fom; . .

PM: I've n.m th! sy�en, . ..

JH: You've Qot all t.n• form . . .

PM; ... fQI' years.

J H: LooK qt what he Sltid at tha tsgt ;Jeetion cami:,aigr 1.

PM: Why de•s hi! �, r,• w;anHad to st=b th• Arbitrati on Comrnission in t'l� stoma�? WhJf woufdn't you keep the umpire in tnere'?

JH: Bu t we do.

PM: Why wouldr,'t . . .

JH: We do.

PM: No, you con't.

JH: Oh. yas wa do.

PM: No, you dor,'t.

JH: We do.

PM: No. you d o not

RM: All right ...

PM: Oh, ycv'd ket!p it, t,ut you don't give it the pcwet tt> inter"v' «tn&.

JH: I mean, )'()LI knew . . .

PM: You don't give It th • pawer to protoo. .ihyQ ne.

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� O J 2

�M: It's again a bit likt PaniamenL Lets move on. Can I a.11k you. do you know what th!I prJC$ of a loaf of t>rud is? Do you kr,ow ....-het a litre of mlllt. is?

JH: Y.s . s1 . eo . . .


PM: A $1.BO

JH: . . . ia .e lo� of br-em:L

RM: Whats a litre of milk co st?.

PM: AbolJt $ 1.30.

JH: No, S1 . 07 when I liist brought It.

RM: What �bovt a �eir of sehool sh�?

JH: I h.iven't brought irie m rec:an tly.

RM: Do you have any id aa? The reason J sslc:. \hst is nnt to be sm.1rt, but clearly you both w:mt to win the battfijr$. Yo u both '.i.ant to win ordina ry Aus tralians. How can ".,'OU convince thsr,"I u,�t you understand what it is lilc� to l"l�vt a bvd9e!, that yo1.1 rstl!lnd wh�t it is like ta serimp 2nd save?

PM: Ray, I under-stahd be�u�e I h;ve �ui,p orted aver-; increase sir,ce the years I hav1;1 be.en a Minister and .arr ans·ï¿½d fo r moit of tnem and under 1::1,.1r poli::;y wa ate riow offe ring S9 to S'l 4 wage 1.1ndar ths safety t1et whi� JQhn HO'h':ard isn't .loM Howard has cpposed e•1ery wag� ln�ean sin� 1 97E, bar !'No.

RM: So. quickly, how do you unders tand It Jr:,hn. yOtJ. ar1� not pcior, you are· not • battl er?

JH: No, cut I don't think he is ellher.

RM: No.

JH: And it is not true to !:ay we have c�po,ed ,..,,ry wa,;e ini:tE1ase �Inca 1 S78.

PM: You have. It is com1)lately tru e .

RM: ... tli llicns. of dolltmi . ..

JH: Yes, I unden;tand :.hat and that is • pere1ptlon scm• p60p le win have. I don't thir1k it is

impossible to be iri s position th1d I am it1 end! �e p,,sltion that PatJI i$ in .and have no

understanding. l tal'< to ti lot o1 p�ple !I! � l�I memb� ,. I know ;a Jot Qf peoplG, I kec1� e Jot Qf

contact with the e.ornrnunity . I tr; to th• �l't of my Qbilrty in my �rork H til lc=ll marn�r to

ul"ld er.st1.1nd the $0!!/ lll prc:,blerM of Au$tt.\ lia. I MCV\/ that, for i&x.1mplG, tho gip betv.teer, ri� end

pool' ov�r the 111� 1 ·,� :;e� h2� wide� and I knciw th� cllmension c:if the yi::1.1tM unernployment problem.s ln areas li�:e ...

RM: We are gi:,unding a bit Ilka campaign !lp si:;c:het so lat ma ,iUik you, elearl:,r you botl, •f1111nt to

be Prime Minister, it is an iuuA cf le.adltt.Ship arid v,,a would like to knt,w a per .so.i,1 l�feaa. on

this . Tim Fi$cher 'tllas on the Sunday program thit mominQ. he wat ta�d about �tottlon. I

haYe never heard your opinion on abortion, .sm you pro-MA ?

JH: I am against abortio n on dern:iind.

RM: What l!bout you f:'�ul K�tlrig.

PM: It hAs atwsys b�um ; vota and I myaolr Mvs the tame �ilrvA ti o ns sbQut bbCJrUo n er,



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RM: AB John Howmd?

PM: Yes, er.sct ly.

JH: C.ari I s.:llY, lika Paul, it I . e c:in�c:.Jou� vote.

1 6

RM: Should M•dicar� pay fc. r a woman's abortion?

JH: w� clon ' t have ariy plar.s to Mange that.

RM: Paul?

- - _ .. ._._, . _ _ _,

PM: Wa ll, it is. a m#tter ct whother or Mt anyor.e, i.who olects k1 havGi o'rio, has :;:i �roper eliriic:al

pr�ura or 1s pu�Bd into some b:!lck yard operat fo,., end I think that is the issue and 1h11t is

why it is P'tid for.

FM: Sut, cari I just say, ju,5t comir'IQ back to that last C;UHtior, ebout unc,er .stariditig pe0p le. I

understand th�m. but I hava al�o donti tli ir,gs, The Family �./!� nee Supplement.

$Up�lornen�ry p.iymen"s fur- low p�id worn�:,. th• Matemity AHcwanc:a, the Home Child C�rs

Allow.-ince, the Parenting Allowance, .all ii"l. a.JI working:. Toe 9enernJLst; ,� Child C�re Rebi!ti!, a

feo �lief in ci1ild C2ie, I rn�an, I j1,1st don't ,unpath is a wit:h �ople. I have done sornGthing aboLit it

RM: OK. wol!, you h�ve btm , ir, govamrnsnt for 1 3 y�rs. �o 0'18 exp�cts you sho uld h;ve d,::,na

something abO\.lt ...

JH: Family �1Jc:iwa nl!JJ \lw'als lrJ roduced by tl"I• Libaral government yc1u know.

PM: OthQr pcaop!o nav$ been tri- �ov�mmant :and t�y didn't do triinos QbQUt it

�: Cl< let's move on.�.s in scnool�. Are you in f-avoiJr ot c.otiaoms in high seh�l5?

�M: It is a issue, I thi�k., basi calfy it l.!. lmpd/'tant that ehi ldr•!n an11 not aff eetiid with thi� kJH sr

di,!,.e.ase, but I don't b�lieve that the whole eJimate of promiieuity. lha whole tira:aeh c1 tr��t

beMeen people i! $Om&t!"lin9 that ought to be enc:ou rsged.

RM: So. yes. condom� irt schoo ls or not.

JH: Well, I'd �Y no, I mean. 1 share hit cone.en,.

PM: I'd �ay 110, but I l.hink, that we should be seeking tct edtJc.11te young pe ople �bout th eir Hf11


RM: John Hower- d. are you relax� and eomfcrtal')I� ebout l'\omo,e x�1a1 ma.tfiagos ;n Au.stral la?

JH: No, I'm not. I don't bGl•Gv11 that, tihould be dli;c;:rirt\inatcd ;ig.rinst I balle� 1 that

n;.i;u.el preference i$ a prlvatr; mali er. I dcl not b&lil Dvta th$lt horne!��I relatio n$hip� $hould be

given tha• le;lll st;it 1J1 H .e mAniage. I believe thai mams�o e s�nl roll! in 1:iur

society. It it a special in �wtior, which gives an anomic,u� amc:·unt cf $tabtlrty to our comm u,�ity.

ru-1: So, a gQy coupl• In marr'.a go is not il faimily unit in Australia?

JH: 1 didn't say tn;;1t, look, 1 i;!rtl not ;olng to get Into a teg;Jiltlc definition. I mean. a fam ily is an

emoticn:al rehatiOMhip arid It i! a c:ommii .rnent of peCJ'.ll&.

RM; But. lik. • iim �(1!d11ii!r, )'OU are r,ot In favwr cf homo�xwl1 marrl1�en?

JH: Btlt J do not and I mako r10 bo� about tt. ) am net In fa•,our of 1�mo-5G 'l'lr.;1l m�l'Tiege s.

flt'wf; P&JJ.

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PM; Peo i:,fe fiv&

_ in

. all s�rts of re1a11on sliip$, Rc1y, yow �ri·t dt. $C1 ibe a ram t!y in any one wa)I. The

nucliar fa tnrly 1s an ,m�• but r'le varthalass.. somewnat =aino con�,:t

RM; Can :,ou ever be convl.'leed that twc men and a c.oc::kor ��ni{!f is not a fa mlly unit �., you mi�

saio In Cabinet?

PM: W•I!, Y ?U will 11ever buld =a soei11ty on it You \Will not b uild a nation on it, btJt it is another thlr:;

to d,ser1min at� against people. lt Is Moti thit1S to Ji,,l�ek to cio 8S the l'l�tional party :and others

h.avc, done, I$ speak in discrlm in.atory te m,s about p«-0pllf wtw li\/ e in hcrr1osexu al ref�tion��J1)$.

JH: You rs;lly are trying to have t\lio bob eaeri way. I m'l s n, just stale yot,11' vi�w and gQt on tc 1 tMe

next om ;.

PM: Ori, e.xcu�e me, I ean g;ve my own &n$Wf9f3 ti, a l')I,;�. I clon't nee d you to i nterpret them.

RM; I h12arel the boss c:.if AC(>SS on radio today saying th�t Jocking �t the campaign, .h0 s::ii d theie M.i: bMn s::i much about ec:.c nomie. policies t.h21t i.1.-� l'\Avf! gc:it S 1 CO millio n of t,"ii-, =il"!d .$ 1 billion u·v own

at that aroun d the pla.c::e. but you two haven't spcker1 aooi.J t �ualilY of life, tMe very thing thtit

wol'ria� Australians, wh::i feel victim$ of chang'1, Th�re, h�s b��n nothing .about sex '1tid vic,lonea ... the way you have sp::i ken in the past. You nave said nothing about ;muth .suicide and COLIMtry towns who .. .

JH: I have Ray.

FlM: I changed the guidel ines.

JH: CM I just uy, we announc.ed • ;,�ram on youth s1Jiciqa last Tuasd:.,y in Quee nslMiO .:111C1 It

inelud�d a number of nems. We ex-pre5sed a graat deal Of C:Qncsm and I accept this, it ,,oes

�crci$ fMt! p.1rtlot. I mo;.n, It is a huge soci�I prob!Qm. This �.QUntry has one of t"1 e largest youth

euicid• rastea in h& w�$t&tn wcrlc:1. It Is obviously ...

RM: Is it priority though Joh,�'?


l' M:







It Is. Wa hav41 Qil .spec.i,,I progr�m. $ 1 8 million gver three yaai�. to dMI with tt,g c;;1unsell ir,9 p�rt

of it, we aro �oing to try to 9et the major media or9ar1is.atior..s together to gl!!t a voh ,mt ary <:ode

about you1h suicide. Clne of the things that wo11iet us is th;;rt some of the media rec,c,rtirig can

encou raga copy cat sl1icides. Wa �ra very conoamad abo;.r. thM. Yll'e are not going to make

:anytMlna maric!!ltoty bEtcaute w• b•li•va In free spQ(1eh. bur. 1 woutd imagine lh�l most of the

major medi� organitsa' In thii �ntry WQUld b·a willin9 to come1 togt:Mer to try t() c!o

something to address th!� point

RQy, can I just m8ke this point I gctu:ally made i;:n initi�tive Qi'l this. r object to 11i oleriCB in film.

cbj�(;:1; to viofenea on television.

You have n't mantronad it in th� campaign, at Ja.ast it hc1sn't bea n report ed.

No, but f had to fight tha natwori(s, includ in� tht� network. to clianga th1:, ratings, to �ti:.,p 1;11.Jtting

that violence rubbiSM ot'I tel&Vi$iCf'I 21t t:m!U\ when childr en were and to pu::5h it bac:x.

You have been in i:icw t!,r for 13 ye.ars. women and ofd ceopls1 !n Austraf,ia don't fe el saflil In their

homu today let AlOl"IQ ,!11"1 tM atr aets. That is being rais&d.

I think the whore c.ult\1r13 of violence Is a problem fer us,.

Elut, that ,� mum and eppla pie $tvff. What ha th• 11ns"" 1et1

We h.,...e mado d•cisions to mo ... o egslnst thn di�&mi1'\ation c)f violarn m:ateMI In our eo<;;'.i l!it,· •••

Wh:it :about gun l:iwi.. 13re yow in fivour of a notlo�I gun rw,

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PM: We have elre11dy madit decisior.s that pr_oh1bit tMt im�1ortation of certain�oriu c1 woapcins.

RM: We don't hdV(I a n:al

1 lona, Qt.Jl'l l�w. so pol1cemGn don't know if .som&one ,:r o.saec tham . . .

1(1 0 3 5

PM: :i- e�. but we have .e ruHional gun law, �ay, you rr.e.y l'\Ot k,i QW .abcut it We have slcp;ie,:j th•

1mponatlon of maeh ina. of rep.&ating weapons and we did It about three or feur ye.ara sg� .er,d we Md to fight u,e QUn IOM)y to oo it. It ha" already �er , dona.

RM: Are you In f.evowt cf r,;;Uo n:;ll 9un l&wg Md conventior,�I gun ,.e-giiti.1r .

JH: l im in favour of th& very !.trict contr ols on th� . . .

RM: Thzt i$ mum appl• pie again lhougl'I Jc!'ln. Al the end cf the d�y crimi nologi�s !HI)' • . .

J H : No. no, with re1�ect . I don't thin� it is bacau!.8 thara t3r9 eert:i in aon.stit\Jti onsl righis ln th's area

that rasldo wrth tne Stat� arid you ean't just . .. · ·

RM: Md tn� Feder <:1l gtivernm ent has the power to ha va a natl onsl gu!'l re gister.

Jl-1: I Qm in fa vour of ; of !�ws thst you work out in c:o-ope1,:1tion with tt,e Sta tes, that giveis the

maxil"'!'lum �mot. mt of pr-::it ection.

RM: ihis is Just sort of pas!iing the bucx. I me an, you hav e the pt.r,Her. tli a f�derel gove mmerit has

the power ...

JH: It is not paasing tha bui::k

RM: You ate not afra id <;Tf tn1 gun !obey?

JH : No, I am not, I am eort�' .infy not.

RM: ',\lhat about hand gUr'ls . are you ageinst hand guns?

JH: �t do you mi!;in .. g.E lnst them?

f(M: The uu of them'?

JH: I' 1 -,ise any justiftca ":io:, r,t all for p€X:1ple c.snyfr.g hand gur1s and I 'N'OIJ!d hata ta th�> (;!till&

Qf Au$ �lia be-e.omQ an ttni ng like New York. I'd h;;te to .see it

RM: H�nd guns, ara you ag,ainst \l"lem?

FIM: I em R�Y and you can't buy a hend gun ovtr tl'H-' carJrrtar. t,wt t1'1a re ally dang�rcus thi11 ;s1 �•

thci�e repet!tirti wupo 15 •r"ld 1o¥e hgva altudy c:iutl�wed imp m1.l!.nt cate;ror ie!, thist ls dast ru,:-tive

e.:itegor ies, of th��.e W!a PQn�.

RM: Do y¢u see ag two faU, two fam ily mon, tht ffid th�t �,, �tralla ru!l !iH mag,istratAll ,Jo to

jail and pollt.ic ians go t�1 jail �nd poliaam,n 90 to jail �,d the tc1p businu.1-N go to jail. \"ihftfE) are

the l'Qlft mQdgls Wfl n,v� in Austl" alia, does th!it disturt, you?

F'M: C an I jlJSt say in our politics, I nave been in tht House of Rtp1•es entatives '"i7 yeitn;. I don't �:now

otl eithor gid• of PN ii'"nsnl "nyo/"18 I wo'Jld r1119ard or ,�ucrib,� 8.! a eom,pt �oruin.

RM: some Stata govammen� have &eoo this.

PM: In either Petty, I b�llevo, th8t w• h�v11 got C$rtil nly :at the n.i ti,:mal level, ·,try els� politics irii thls

country. I think there i:I v,r;ry much a role medet �rt1 Md, I think, w� tiave me�lsms to '5no

that thCJJ,: thing, hap�1n. Thant i� 8 Royal eommiasl:,n in N:SW as a ctieti In poinL If th111t•t ire

probloms here. � dea' 1 wtth it. but ...w don't aceapt 8M<� W'! don't tum our het!d.

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I egree with him. I th_inK Fedftrally this has beeri :a rem.�r)(ebtr ctG,lll'l snow. Yo\.l �n·t ��Y th• s.s me about Stat� pol:tl� end 10�1 gov�m�Qnt. Th• o th�/' th,ng, �,. and Jar1:;e, tl'lat has bet1n f. u from c:om .1ptio,, ln tM,s country ,, the JUd1clary. YOl.l h:lva had $Oma itol.!tei:s eaus ...

lt1 Queens land and NSW . . .

Yu, l:lut by ar:d larue ...

I am no ;re�t bslinvat' in (ho!ia !hin�s. Yot.r Cdrl't 1-,9is:l�te , if thQ1�8 is no ir..stinct for honest b � h�viour you c.:an't 1«.s; is!ate. iha .Americans h.a� e the moit �tri� c:.od� imagin.r.b!a abnul fuhd ra1tmg arid all ih¢5-t) other thingw. H didn't stop Ri{*'ard Nixon in W�le�:ste. It didn't i;ti;1p S�lro Agnew? ae1wally ta�in9 mon,:r when he was Vic.e-P r�sid• 9-nt of 1tie lJntted State&. I tl' tink It I$ i3

ciuestion of havll'l� i: decent . . .

What �bout conduet i n What you h�ve r�etr&o ta ii') th e p:1st u the rough ;;nd tumble, cf thil Foder;! PQ(liament. Australian$ fam iiies and psn.if'lts se,� es vert,at thuggery. Thi;y s1� your be?'!a•1io1..1r in Parliarril!nt and it is what they woul dn't ap�r o1.; e of in theit own fa milies.

But, what i� hap�nin, i!. thet U'leir wages sre bein� dsf9!'lc!ed, Me o!eme Is being def f?n(1ad.

.Bwt do we need to shout !nd setQam at each other all the time?

Wh�t needs to hapc,en is that ..,iews. th�t s.ri& strof"lg!y held and policies thaf ariil antlraly

neeesszry for the we If are of tl':a alian commun ity, I mear, ...

Peul, your family WOl1ld not let your chi! drGn act the way you twc ac::t in llamsnt.

l.�k Ray, ycu hav(1 got a hulthy Parliamsnt.iry democracy whleh is t.he clearing house ef

n.".tiorial pl't!QSIJl'fi'S. If �opl1 want, �ple ll�$ mys(:lf or Jchn Howar d , to r�pre$ent a rs1spactlva point of via- ,v, in my case for good �es. for a deceint soci;3l �afe1y nEit. Thes� are thing�. wort1'1 flghting for. They a.r�, thing wortn arguing.

Yo1.1 have both just e�raed, tn the la.ft flv• minut� y·ou hav·a a;reed 0.1 a whole ran9� ot thlh9$. Wny don't we ever s�IEI botn sida.s of�nt c.,umng togs.trier for 1 8 mllHon Austt� !lam.

I think a lot of tim�s it do.e5 happen.

W• don't $ee it.

Ws ll, that is not our choic;:1¢ 1 U,�t i� thA ehotc.e that n1�ws Qdi tors make -.very ni9ht wnen -U. 9 y Pt.ii th•ir bu!le tiM toge th e r .

When wes the las! time you worked with thi! bloke or, something. In �ct . ta try to get �crn�thing for tha b•tf•r of Au.stm fi.=n poop!t?

I often $upport decan�. �c;,vQmmtrit legl�atlon. They oiiteri put up thing$ that I c:an $1.Jppc>rt and I think it is pel"1 c,f e de1,ioa111ie pre� fa( m• to point out tl'1e dtfief enc:les. I m�n. ycu a:,k me

about P�liament, J'll rnaki, t;,vo cha nges 10 P;rli2marrt. I'll tJ.Jm up to work •vary d8'/ if I 1,@eome Prima Mlni.&tcir. I won't l"\Q' .IQ :trlt roits rcd d«y! off lik1a lhia blok e did th,, tut . . .

Lot m e Just tell you. l tum up to wetk . . .

Th � s.e eond thing thzt I will do Is I will have an. ind.9� .f91'1dent �p.uker Slid t.11 • �(!11. waa.kno :u i n

p erli.amerit over th e ltt$t f gw yeivs ls that w-& he.1ta not �d an eff'Gctivoly lnde�ndeot &��"'· You hava had a sps.akar vmo has not � truly lndepender. .t of th• L.atx,r Party and tr I b• r:om&

Prime l will ,1do�t a systttm ot havlno a eomi,lert ely independan't SPC8 ker who �m oo

just ii:s tot.JQh on mo mid my Minh,tm-s.

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�: You com mented that was a chea p shat?

PM: That fs a e:hM p snot

JH; lt is net a Chea p sl'lo � It i5 true.


PM: Tht Prime Minster. the head o1 the govamm$nt In this � y, work$ t::a y and night. Whether­ one g.oes into th� Parliament Chamber , Uia ;ovamrne;r, t, th8 exaeutivm gov11mm•rrt wcrx:; ,:fay and r11ght. I� n$1t•r rni$!$ed .a days work. sr,d oft&n not a r ,i1�hts -work sinc.e I have been Prim& M!ni� er. But, I al:o t�aliev•, that s p&ncing one h<:iur av1;1ry day In F'arlia.ment an�edng

rhatorical ciuastions !'rem an O pposition that has M poli<: � framAwt:1rl< is not 5e/i'in o the

Au�tralian i:,vb/1(: well.

JH: ... a rhetcriClill answer.

PM: \tVh�n the serious businEiss of tha gov�rnment whith mcives aft,ng every hour of every day nei!d S to be att1nded to.

RM: Al l right, l�t·s go to some of that serious busin&ss.

PM: J go in there tr.e same time, more tima In fact, th;n t�1� BritH:h Prime Mini�ter a.r.d most othar

Prime Ministsrs irt the WesU'tli nst�r systtm.

JH: The British Parl iament sits twi� :.� onen.

RM: L��! time we spoke, tv,,o wesks �go in faet. :;oi.J != IJllad ;;. rabbit Qut ef the hal You talksd ssoo mill Ion in tax We ha'Yer'\'t he.:!td af'IOthar thing abciut that, drc ppad like a 1�Qg,

PM: Ni:,. bee:ause. Ray, it wilt happen.

PM: It l.s go;r,g to be a policy chan ge �nd it Weis costed b y the Tra asury c:ind the Department of

Fitienee. That is wh y ' I .s-iid Q:,:r!ier the Lc1bor Party i:� in th.i:r9 with n.s fundin g over W�� its

commitrner1ts Md thon <;Qtt'll'r 'l itments are half thc,s;e of Mr Ho w13.rd and his pQlie" f .

RM: Is there legislation, thou11h, ctimin g7

PM: Oh. of eour.s� tlier e wm t e.

RM: Thftn why did yo1,.1 give u·:; three montrr.s notice then to tt,ose ta:.: chests'?

PM: Be�u!� we wer� only ni:,tifigd b:,, tho Tax Offit;J:11 that t.he1y ha.d fo1.1nd tM .!ze of thi-' in OeeemJ �;r

of lest year and more fully in J•nua ry of this �rid ,i.,t eef.(!d on it imrr1edLai.el y. B y contni.sL

vm ert Mr Howard w-e:s told about his prcbl ems In the tru: system - the criminal evasion cf the tax

sys tem in the late 1 910.!f, earl y 19$0 a - it took hlrn three ye-ars to move on the bQttom of itne

harbour sdiamQ - on the bottom o1 ll'lo harbour sici'\C l"n 8Si.

JH: It I� Ilks �lliott Neu wamlng Al C�poo e ha ii goin g to raid a $(:leo .. kaea1. y i mc,an you have ni,·, m

them tt,e. g rinit•st warnin g l.)f1der tho 5'.Jn and the y 'MIi take tt':a money out of one sc:hiame · ernd

the y wil l put it ....

RM: John Ho- -Nard, yr.iu h•v� said to u.s tonight that, in fa c::t. we can'1t trust thi1 bloke wh•n it �m� . t�


.JH; �Jo, you c:ian't t.rwi t him w:>-.en It com ci to nlection pmmls.:?S . ..

RM: A!r1ght. W'CIII ...

JH: ... b� ha hU got fom, , 1'1• t,� got LAW, lsr,.,J . He hH got Ill:( off pcrui OMrlil.

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RM: But ror the lant 1 ; 1 months sin� you took over of th e Uberal Party, yr;iy h.tva warned us .aoout five mintJte.s Qf ecer,omic sun$hine • you h.2\18 told us ab.: lut that � �torm cl� uijt co ming and so What has �1ai:ipen•d ... $eem.s to hav11 siornJ r1aw b•c..lu1:e you h�ve b."tlsed a=> matiy of yo1.Jr �lieifil� on h:s Budget estimatu.

JH: No, wh;Jt I have said, Ray, i5 what ths community MU f,art c:,var thl' last '1 2 nionths l:s: ei! ff ttis re

has only bsen five minut5.i cf aoonomie sun.!hina and I st.!nd �Y t.ha1t .sta tBmenl

PM: Oh eom� en. John.

RM: But you tak:.e his ,,..or d in terms of tho B udget bac.:iu se you have based your poricieJ� en th!t amount

JH: No. what has happeMd is wa went thr:ough this vNy, very deep rec�rs siori - the won.t in SO - the ona that wa h ad to have, the on.e for whfeh yc,u liavs ntvtr iapologised, th• one th.a t put one rniHion Austr alians out of work. Well I mean l knO'lv you d � 't Iii<& it.

l=' M: You had a much de1ep<,r reee�ion fn 1980 /81 .

.!l-!: An� tl'\s Au$trali�n �8oplo ought to bit reminded o1 ll and 1,ou e.:an't with wea$SI words fi1Ytide your ra�ponsibilit-1 for it and thay go throt.Jgl'I all tn.:i �,�ir, Of that r-.e� uw!on, things S"tert lo(,king as

though frlay are pir;king up and bang, irrterest r:;te�1 go up aQain.

PM: Come on. Af some point . . .

JH: Ar.d you h�va �till got . ..

PM: Ray.

J H: No, nc, no. Wa ha-, a now got a.e per cent Of �eo pre out rn' w orlc.

RM: Hang on, John.

PM: R.ay, wa are riow inio 1 7 conse�ive quarters of eo: momi� gn:,wt,h, tl'l!t longe$t grc'Hth phaH ir,

Australian histof), ;::nd for John HO"Nard to be cynic.all)· manipu l.Ung public opinio n with a

mis ehi evous Jin& �eel.It five mlnu1es of sun$hirie is to ufl tMe 'v'llho ie ait.muy dawn thu d�ln.

Tho long•st growth pl·i :, sei in Austral i an hittory .. whieh ha:J produced, in the l�!:t tJ,ri,e y�ars, .;n

av�riilga r.ite of gr,1wth t-wic;:.a at: fast as 0ny otr1ar Vw'!Mten, country and the fastes.t tete ef it'.

employment growth in th� we�tem worl d. "'

RM: And fot{'igl'l d!lb t frorn $20 billion to $1S8 billion. Hc,w do I tell my children thet they Era going to have to pay for

PM: Md the sarylcing c:::a1:>acily from 21 per cant of our e:1:port, clown to 1 1 �er ce-nl.

RM: Will we pay it ctr'?

PM: 00Vr'l1 to 1 1 per eenl

RM: Will we ev1 r pay that foreign debt clf?

JH: you haven't got a plan tc do anything lilbOut it.

FM: Ray, our ccp!city to t1eNic. our debt hat doubled, h35 dout1l&d. we am at the sama titM . . ,

RM: YH, but It kqeps goir. g up.

PM: Ya.», but $0 do our u »ts. We h�vt ;ot l'U!ll rlY $$0 t>Ullon o-r priv.tta tiSterl.!i cff! nore.

RM: So y01.J arn eomf ort,b' e wtth $ 1 M bl/lion in for1ign dE1bt?

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PM: But .again!t that th�r e i$ .$90 billion of privet• IU$6,ls off shorl! and �ti of that has been bo�d on th!!! current aeeount to put it there. Sut c::ould l Just se, 1 tl'li! about the receu1on, tn, d&epgsrt tec.ess ion i;;inc:e tl'I e wi,.r was when John Howard was Tru.sur•r t:ie hlr'sian 1 9 80 i1M 1 sei.

So let's stop all thl.! stuff about recas.slons ai"ld Qpologia!I.





J H:





.J H:






11·1 11 fact it, Rily, th11t this iC th8 longest i:,eriod of growt.h and Yl"hat I � m $.ayic,g to p

invastmerit c.omin�. we h�ve strong grawtrl and stron\; employn,1 ,mt right tnrou9h to tM tum

Do you faar tnat ycu havs set up =i. 900d economy and this l::)lo k� l1s going to ride tho n1ory on your back? l.9 that .. ·m at you fenr?

We l l e�:aetly. l took. ;in industriQI gr� vaysrd off Joht, Hov,,ard • 31'\ lnd1.1.stri�l gravey111rd.

No wonder triey $t,y you ar& out of touch.

And incustrlel gr�"e.yard with do1.1bl• digit \,ln •mptoyment, davble. cli51it inflation and bai;ic;atly our industries going nowhere. Now w� 11re exporting e1ur hea1:!s off; we �1ra ;a modem, $OphJ ati�t�d "c.onomy: we have ;ot ei- highly trained werxforce: we have got eve,, rno ra training cc.ming Into the workfor�; arid we have got a good wa�es syt;tem in i: taee to kocip high produetivit;r .2nd tc,w inflation.

Th• grut problem �tit h that, Paul, is people dor,'t believe ii:.

But it it riQht tl'iough,

Alright. let's ...

Thoy don't blllli•va �nd, you ktlew. th:at i$ the equ}vat•rit ct :,,ou s.ay,l ng \olrrt\2t :are they g oing on about? Thay are ;ciing on abQut tht fact th:at we 11�i\l hav«1 780 1000 �,eoplt out of wQrk, we have almost 30 per Cilnt youth 1,,1n1mpt oyment, we havt �1ot a forsign debt c:If $ 1 8 0 billion - wtla l do you �Y, oh it i!!: r:i•rf tctly alright. I mun I am doing � rr1�t\l&II01J'l thing.

We ana .serwieing it We are •xportinQ our haads off.

You have r,evet ape logised. you have never shovm any remor.1e fo r th� pain .

John, let'$ move o"- We are down to the last ftiw minutG! on t!iiS one. Is your vision of°t1 Au.strali.:a, a. you t�1id on Four Corner5, ;is a ly i:.omforleble and rela:rsd Australia. ;a.rQ you

goitig to put us 10 $li�p'?

Well that was Just pnrt of ll

They will have the !Cit - comfo rtable for now and In tirJa Mur& ?

No, no, no. I went :1 1, Aus tralian Mur�. an Auitr ali21n sode1ty wtiar e )'•:lU give incantJve to hopa to ind ividtJals.

Is that the most you CQUld do tht1ugh • be comfortah,le 2nd 1·elax.ed?

Well there w-or• I! 1i:, t of ether thln51is I said but thut ts wttat ap�Hred. Thm you giva ir11:4rrttva

end hope to indlvid1Ja!s. \,\/)-)QT• you atnarigthen a.rid you don't dam,ig• the ttile eif u,a ft!mlly In

th.e commun ity. I mo.en I war,t &r1 A1.1ttrQli111'1 s�ety "Mi� you c::itrt fclr thosa who can't look after

themHlvu �nd I wt1nt en Au5�1lan tr;,dety thi!rl cl'\ tM gl'Ut dlve.r.tlty of our pcpullS'Uon. I

mun we ere e vert - I ltety luck)' eountry. But we could be

doing it� lot better.

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RM: Alright. Again, witr, tesp eet. It sounds like motherhood. If you are ccl'lcem•d aboLJt u,� wh¢

CJiln't fool( after tri &.Tl!alves , you h�ve �een eonspiCJJQUis with your !iilenc.a on Aboricl n:111 hull.h . S 1 billion a ye...Jr i.s .spent or, this. Ir, tt,a last 1 2 months ""1'1�n have yuu t:ilked cibout It?

JH: We have talked ab,�ut th;t. l t,:ivt, in fa ct, e.xpresi;ed the anger and the am21z•m�nt

RM: Woll w<1 are all angry and amazed. But ....+iat eJ'8 yi:,u going to do abc,ut tt?

JH: Well I t!!!II you wha�. tht amount of money ti'tlit is b�ing !:pent i n th!irt arM it is an lnc. lc!nierit of

this m.arrs GovemM1e11t thl!t the statt of Aborigina: hei!lth - dutpitt the exp,enditur 'il of huhdrads

of millions of � is sa bad.

RM: Sut wh;t will you de: . al; it b@i:ause it was no better when you were· ln Gove rnment?

JH: I will rnslOaius-e cie�rly thi.t i�n·t riappening

al ili& present timE,. Look, everybody in this ec,untry �- irr�pecti 11e of their politio, -· wurrts

genuine rac:::i nciliation between tha Aborigin!a)s of this C':;)untry and � rest of the .�c.1s-ttal i1n

eommw,ity. But the W'!Y you get genuine �c:.anci lintion is not through politie-3.!ly correct symbols, you g�t it through focusalng on ataas cf deprivatic1n, thro,.:gh ma�in�, c::ertain th3t tl'\e 11sry terg� amounts cF money ':hat are mada availabJQ, d.:> SE!t tt> th�� prol:ll om. Md u,21t l'lnl'l't l"12!p�ed

bo�Us8 ir, many of the hrea� wi"t�re you mea$ure .AJ,o riQinal h�llh. it ha� in f'11ci got woirs.e v.tith miehoma, with mam,, · of those ... it has just got worse under your la:a d�irship.

PM: Aboriginal etnpoWHrmer,t, esMnti .il ly, c:JmK with land. Wh11m the �latlve Tile � wa!l p:i utd,

Johr, Howar d'� P�ril' s.ic.l it v.a s 4i d•y csf !herM. 1"hey did everythini; to it In U,,! Sar,a te.

John Howard talks .;bout Aboriginal raconeiliation, hi� Part ;- '3nd ha was a ftontb flnchcu- \111,en Cr

Hows.en w211 s Lea far • did everything to $top it. Tnew has been a real chang�. I tr,1n� In

Au!tr =lia.

RM: Not in Aboriginal h&alth.

PM: There has be;n .; n =rl Change In tenns of a ri:la l b"si1 af r·eeoncillatkin after M�bc. ?eie?le fe el

better �bo ut it. thiiy know ; goc:id thing Ms b&en done ;nd when Aborigina l i:,eo pl• >',fwa their

land .. ,

RM: That i.s warm and f'1JZzy again, Paul.








Ri\1 :



No, it wa sn't warm and Ntzf ...

How .!b-out 2S time� ::ho whito rate of diawtes and 11,f.ant d1a�th ...

Ye.s. exactly .

. . . 'lnd bllndMSS, :an(! rt,eumatoid . . .

Wefl I aQteA with yoi..•.

Arid what has heppei 1ed to U,et?

You know I vns at Hopev .;Jlt, with you, looking at that very pl'Qbl em.

It is still ti'lere.

Exactly, but you nsvo got to start with th& 1:it1d snd you havo �ct ta g!it people out cf w,i.a rt WIits

formcrfy mi!'i.Blon S'btt'ons, wtiich are riCM" c:alled .Ahc1rigina.t community centres, and we 11!.vt got

to get th1m 'ooek 01.rt onto tt,� I.and ftnd, at the MJT\8 time. we hav• got to wru, th•

#nvironmrant al r,,robl stn s � like t'\ou-'ing, ovein:rowded hcuslnO, in.nd�tlat.e eeweroga, bald road!,

bad•r wt'llch ha£ � a prec ltm , whleh hes 111ri; rafy b�"' sen: with !:h1t St.etfl and 1ml: 1.1nd on11

and Um i, why tho C �mor M•e11lth hav.:a now MgaQ1!)d il"I hE111lth dir.ct ly.

AlrlQP'tt th.-y h,r.·e be en told that tor � l.Pt 30 ot 40 irears. haven' t \hey?

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PM: We h�ve now p;assed M1bo and you hava nc::7'# got the CQmrticn\4•ulth De?artment cf H•aitn directly delivering riealth pro�tim.s on liilil g round.

RM: We are down to th,, fast few minutes. Sut, John, r .,,_.-ould Jike to ask you this cam�ig,, w,a have !'\ fer the la!ll fo ur week$, did you fHI lik• a goo�1e "11er1 you werl!!t :sitting in that s�n dbmc with a four YMI' old boy t.r; ing to pour hirn t�.a?

JH: No.

RM: YVriy were you thtro?

JH: I mean I thiAA a � art of any oampa!gn are thln9s like. • me11n ·. yi:iu know, In l:!11 y •laeticn

camp aign you do things. I don't think there ... I ntavar fe el •.. Qn I tell you, Ray, I nE.vur fe�I a goose with young ei lldren. I to'it childrM, I loved it when my own children ...

�M : But you mean to 2i:-:ually get th•r • and potir him a Uttle bit of Ymtar ju!st for I.hat polnt.

JH: I find that a perfeetl/ thing to co.

R.M: Fo� s photogra;:,h?

JH: No, I tliirik any mar, wt\D a dlffieurty in playing with ;a young chi ld. I feel .$Ort'y for. I think

playing with childran. $pending Uma with childr en. is ::i wor1dQrfuf, natural thing to do sari,� t always enjoy doing it. I am .so far �m fae ling a goos'!. I enjoy ehildran, they cap tivate me ,�nd I !ova tnern.

�M: Alright, �II we all l1>vo th�m. they ca;tivate ell of U$, Oo you really believe. at som e stage, Paul.

that thi!r& is going t:, b1 11n inteniatJonat alrport at PaM(as, that the!'$ are going to be 14i'i; flying

in and out of there?

PM: lt ls a di�inc:t pos.!!ib!lity.

RM: \A/hen. in our lifelim,,?

PM: lf the stud:; firi.ds p.::,sitivaly, J tl'linx, it ;, aib out a i1<0 to SUI million cai, ital commi tm1,,,t and it

woutd sea hortlo.iJtur- al industries. fruit 1nd Y-s;,t�bles, parishabJu :ibl• to be tak,!r'J o'.rt of

Austrell�. But, agai ,, it has to b$ •eonomlc:. and ttm Govsrnrnon\ said U will fund the .st1..1 d11. �

RM: So you weren't just 01,,1t there simply for the vQ1H saying, well this is wh�t we will lo:ik at and

ones the eliec:;tio n is over fo rget It?

PM: No. no, I was at Or an;c ,�st talking to tht As ri.�oed Councll atJout th� very !i�ma subject,

t:i Woo!�ort/'l.s, to some of the big prcdLJcers, and to !5oma of tha big diS'trlbutors VO'ith fJio f.arm


RM: Alrighl I want to give you both a ehenca to sum up. Sut a q1J1ck quutlon, a nows �1JHtlcm.

WGre you .snoel

comi:,anie! in Au&tN1lia over football?

PM: lli,ase are eorpora tu matttr, al'\d under the Tra�e l'ractia:.s Act. Ray. I "1Hl'l you wculd rnive to


RM: But the judge'� us• of word.a Ji)(.e clecait and dlshon11fy and duplicit)I '3nd rom.iptll"ig f;sctie11. �

that coming to ....

PM: YM. tlt.rt wt,y asl( us, R.a y. I f'llQn ...

r{M: ee�a:& Te!Wn is in p,eMGrnhip -Mth Foxti,l in tem,s of r::izy tale"13lon. We am a!s-c1 ,tclna tc

glvt> th4m tho Fo.x St\.Jd itl5.

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rM: But what are yov try1119 to �y. now, I manage th• RLJgby Leagui.? Is thi;t it?

RM: No, you are In P:lrtrle ·.s hip with .a CQmoany tl'l:..t has !:1 11en severely criticised by a Fadsral jud�c:i.

PM: For aa pa:; t�le'Ji ,iot'\ t usinflt$$. S1.1t Su�rl•agy• is '11 c;reat1.1re of the N,,wr; C�or .ation and N tJws Un,l red and the ARL.

RM: So it is n othing about rv rights. o'r ebout Mwspeper�1 in Australia, tharn Is ho reflection on that7

PM: Look. thfe is. &ssentially, about corpor ation�. lt Is a carpcr-atlon tuS.!Sle.

RM: Any alarm bQf/s for yc:iu ori thli?

JH: Can I just s">' .s¢n'l�tl-Jrrg about it I, .@s a lover of Rl19t,y League, I hopa th�t court dec iE;icn is a

cacaly$ t to reunite tl'le game. I V,irik: the divi$ion and 11-.e bittem t�:s, tht ranc.::i1.1r, tl'mt na.s oecurred and has cut !n h.alf a great game and J woul11 like to �M . . .

RM: AAy al$rm b�lls? We doh't have yQur commun lt;:E1tions )'!:olicy, but any alarm bell� :,!::out e company. in ne-w-spap &rs and ttlavision in Australia, that gat!S that !Ott (if criticiue ?

JH: Oh, well, I mesn, that are .snli tf&d to furttier procedures of th� law like �nybcd y el$e and I don't think. somebody in my position should be making judgements,.

RM: Alright We \.l>li/1 now !]ive you 90 seconds ea� to wra.p up tonight Y,:,u were both BXpE}C\ed to

land .a kr:oekout pur1cri tonight. Give us yoyr knoekout. '\N'n� shOuld Australians vott!I fo r fO:J?

JH: Because: I cal'\ do � Natter job. I rnean I h8\le atayod In p<�litic:s. I hi3v� sufferad my Sh,.ra of

;.dvor. �it)'. I have stayed in politics boeau$e I ca.ra abo1Jt Uiis cou11try. ln common, I a:11 ?lure.

with so many, I love t1'1is country. I �r & �.bout it.t futul'$. I li:.ncw it ha� Q ot problems, but I bnH.eve th"t if I am given the chanci, I e,gn do something to fo� problemi.




JH :



I n21ve triad in this el�iC" ...tion eampalgn to address �e re al i!1tues. I have developed a plan ftlr yo�.h unemployment. I mean I 'Will sctually do somettling abm.rt it. l wrn get !m�r r busine�s going .1g.1ln . I ',ll!IJ e�eJ'ld ths apprent iceship $)'$ttm . I will et1.sur11 th:!it there, is $Oli'iet hope of

f ;r-ed to

tho�a 40 t� SO p4r �t of your,9 �:ilisns iri �rQ.u, lika Ca1Ttpbelltcwn th.$t are without ei1 job.

I have got sn affordab :e tax pacl;age. OM �uarte r of th� ta:i: paekaga that r.e eff ered bm'ore the la� .:;re:::tlori fu l!y f..i n :,ed. p;id fat to the last do1la1r. That point not even di�plJt�d b}1 KJm ( Btaz!�y. lt is tar;etac:! te> low ine.t.irn& earner$, In oth•r words, I Gm �dcitessing th• (un di:ltTl!ll"itQf problem.$. I have $l�y8\'J it'\ politlc:t b4eauag I w�t t1) se..e ,11.ustralia a ibetter coun1ry. f w:mt to

saa that we eare for 1h e people in our �mun rty who need help.

Okay, that Is ll

And. I �!so want to bui/1� on the f!.:;t that wu e.'!!'I use O\Jr histo1y .as w&ll a.s our ge-egr aphy. Wl' axplolt our European s nd A.rnerr can a:s5ocia!lons to �ttsure that we h�v e a real pJ2ee ...


. . . tn thit part Of the we rtd, for the b4r,ciflt Cf all ALJwel iens. ... You havG had your so ue onds. so �:.onds.

Ray, this l.s the s,ert�:S of the a�t cpportW'llty to r AU$1relia • • 1.1nta!itie oplX)ttlJntty • 1 e

mimon people. trie on1 1 , nation en Hrth With e c:orttin@nt to itSl� lf, In th� f arstest growing part ct tha wt:irld. Now. a cohl'isiv a country, �rs we hlllt get ia deee.rn s;ocial w.-1•. we have got ur1f\'grUI

ec:.eess tQ h!alth !mJL.t ntneo, -i� and equtty in e

t;Secaht wtigs syst.&m, low it'tffot1on.. high prodlJCtlvl ty, high tnlinitig, nnarty eight in ten yol,l!'lg

pe,eplit cornpl�t ing Aac::ind1ry school. a doubling of tmivs�ity pl.tCG-'.











06 273 410 0


A.II thet give, us th• oc:ip ortunlty of belni;: s trained, tei:: nnieelt y si;,phi•ticated c;our,try, �rowing

r2pldly on thv t1iresh1.Jld ot Alla , making t�e link3QE!S. We have nENEtr before been part of llit 1asta st cirowing maoo it.s of the world • we are new.

Au1trglia, In p�rt, ha!l set up Vie primary pl� of llOlltle.1!11 erc:.hitedur• in the �ita � a c:ifi.c with

APEC. We have m.acJe U'le opportu nities. we have �.a� th�• .b llatBf'Bl ll1,k$ t:, �es.e ci:un1r11� ind

what W$ l!lr e going tc1 do is improver the !;.ipacity ar Austml lans 10 fir id jobs. for tha C()U"ltl)' to

grew r.trong;r, fot income.a to be graatar arid fot Jcb1 to � mcto lnterQ..l;ting .

I tl'link tl'let is tile part of the fuwra U"lat I '" and I t,ay• beer'I working towards that n,�,. M fl

Mlnlstar and a Primo Mini! 1er. openino Austral ia lJP, mal .Jng it bOuntlfU I. m;aklng rt ecrrflderrt. letting rt go out to tho W'Ot'ld , lcttln� It trnbr:aea tt11 ,�d. ,�d. In th11t ...wy, Q!vlng Aust�Allans .:1

higher .suand�d cf living - !.lom•!.hing, I think, w• could had OY'lfy dtta�,f of .si de.cede or sc:, �go.

Alrigiit. 11"1 the ci=uple of �. will you stay II'\ pe,liliCS.. wHI yo1J $U,y In PatHame1n! : rf you


I wguld nav.; to thirlk ecout lhaL R.ay.

You haven't mind )101..11' . . . wh:U a�ut you, John. wil l you stsy iri pO!iti c.'!!, if you loss?

WaU I won't be Qppc�lt lcn Leeder.

8ut I.\IOuld you st2y ii� �iltics?

Well I wculd hava te. thir'lk A.bout that tC>Q. 6ut I e.!'tJ!inly wcul dn't be r-e,ig ning stra ight .;wiiy arid I will tum up. When ;,anlament stta, 1 eipiod to b'1 1:hate a.o Prim• Ministar.

Well we will egree en that

Wa havt agreed on that ThQ.t Is 21 niC.G way to finish. 'Thank yeu, Jchn Howard. Thank you,

Paul Kaatin;. Trn 1nk you f-or being with us tol'light for thia GfUi! Oeba!g. Good ll1ek n,xt

Sat urday, Thank you and Qc.:xil'light.