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Rising youth violence.

They do not value life.

Is it time to look beyond the traditional law and order response.

It is be tougher on crime rather than focusing on being tougher on the causes of crime.

John

crime.

John Clarke and Bryan Dawe on the new political paradigm. How long do you think this Government
will last?

Who are you asking

? Both of you.

We hope lit has at very long time!

Growing concerns over violence surge

Growing concerns over violence surge

Broadcast: 16/09/2010

Reporter: Natasha Johnson

A worrying number or assaults and stabbings are reported every weekend in Australia, with young
people over-represented in the statistics of this social problem. The surge in violence has
prompted calls for new measures in tackling this issue.

Transcript

KERRY O'BRIEN, PRESENTER: Every weekend, reports of violent assaults and stabbings come in from
cities and towns across Australia, as police on the streets say they're facing an increasing number
of people using weapons such as knives.

More than 2,000 arrests were made last weekend in a national police crackdown on drunkenness,
street violence and anti-social behaviour.

But there are calls to go beyond the traditional government reaction of punitive law and order
measures to address what appears to be a growing social problem, with young people overrepresented
in the statistics.

Research published today showing controversial curbs on pub trading hours in Newcastle in NSW have
reduced the number of assaults by a third, may also have implications for public policy nationally.

Natasha Johnson reports.

NATASHA JOHNSON, REPORTER: On the beat on our mean streets.

???: We're not going to tolerate drunken violence, anti-social behaviour in the streets.

NATASHA JOHNSON: These police officers were among thousands deployed across the country as part of
a co-ordinated national crackdown on violence called Operation Unite.

The 7.30 Report joined this crew on patrol and it wasn't long before things turned nasty.

This was one of the 2,400 arrests nationally during the two-day blitz. Ugly scenes those on the
frontline say have become increasingly common and increasingly brutal in the recent years.

KEIRAN WALSHE, VICTORIA POLICE: As a young constable out on patrol you would go to a pub brawl,
most of it was fisticuffs. You may have seen the odd billiard cue used. But you didn't see the
level of weaponry in relation to knives, you know, the use of glasses etcetera that we are seeing
now.

BRENDAN NOTTLE, YOUTH WORKER, SALVATION ARMY: We see between 70 to 100 young people a night, and
out of that group, one in three indicated that they either had a knife on them at that time or they
normally carry a knife, and that was shocking.

JULIAN BONDY, CRIME RESEARCHER, RMIT: It's actually getting worse on a per capita basis. If you
look back through the decades we are in a space where Australia is a more dangerous place.

NATASHA JOHNSON: 27-year-old Scott May has often been in danger. The former soldier survived
deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan only to be attacked with a box cutter when walking through
Melbourne's CDB with his wife and friends late one night in June.

LARNA MAY: He finally let go of that anxiety sort of thing while he's overseas and then you come
back here and then it happens when you least expect it.

SCOTT MAY: It angers me deep down inside; it really does. You're out to enjoy yourself for the
night and to have something like this happen for no reason.

NATASHA JOHNSON: He's been scarred physically and mentally. This was the first time since the
attack three months ago he and his wife ventured back into the city.

SCOTT MAY: We just don't go out anymore into the city because we don't feel safe. I personally
would like to see a bit of a harder approach.

NATASHA JOHNSON: It's stories like this that heighten public anxiety and get politicians of all
persuasions talking tough.

JULIA GILLARD, PRIME MINISTER: We wanna crack down on knife crime.

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: It's important that we crack down on knife crime.

COLIN BARNETT, WA PREMIER: Stop the thugs ...

JOHN BRUMBY, VICTORIAN PREMIER: The toughest suite of anti-knife laws.

NATASHA JOHNSON: More police with more powers and harsher penalties have given Victoria some of the
toughest laws in the country and Deputy Commissioner Keiran Walshe believes they're starting to
have an impact.

KEIRAN WALSHE: I think we are seeing a downward trend. I think we're getting to a better position.
But we got a long way to go. What we are still seeing is an increase in the carriage of weapons by
young people, and I'm talking about young people as young as 10 years of age.

NATASHA JOHNSON: This is a pretty powerful show of force, with 450 police officers on the beat in
Melbourne trouble spots tonight. For those feeling anxious about their safety on streets it's a
reassuring sight, but some are questioning whether this is the solution to the violence problem.

JULIAN BOND: It seems that we're at a race to the bottom. It's like who can be tougher on crime,
rather - rather than focus on being tough on the causes of crime.

JOHN BRUMBY: We've done both; we've tackled crime and we've tackled the causes of crime.

NATASHA JOHNSON: Victoria Police agrees enforcement alone isn't the answer and is calling
particularly for education strategies to combat alcohol abuse.

KEIRAN WALSHE: It is a massive problem and I think if we look at it, about 70 per cent of calls for
assistance to Victoria Police have an alcohol relationship to them. There's gotta be some form of
cultural shift. We can't do that.

NATASHA JOHNSON: Research published today into the effect of winding back pub closing times from
five to 3.30 am in Newcastle shows a dramatic 37 per cent drop in assaults over the past 18 months.

KYP JYPROS, RESEARCHER, UNI. OF NEWCASTLE: That's a huge effect. In public health terms, you don't
see - there aren't interventions which produce effects of that size so quickly and most of them
would cost a lotta money. This intervention doesn't cost anything.

SALLY FIELKE, AUSTRALIAN HOTELS ASSOCIATION: Our own research shows that those restrictions caused
nine out of the 14 hotels in Newcastle to either close, go into receivership or change hands. It
caused a drop in employment across the hotel sector in Newcastle of 21.7 per cent and absolutely
decimated the late night economy of Newcastle.

NATASHA JOHNSON: Calls for a national rollout have met fierce resistance from the hotel industry
and it's an intervention state governments are reluctant to adopt.

JULIAN BONDY: We tend to really focus at the last point of knives and violence. We're not focusing
anywhere near enough on why people carry and what we can do to encourage people to stop carrying
and why people resort to violence when they're in conflict.

NATASHA JOHNSON: Criminal justice researcher Julian Bondy from RMIT and the Salvos Brendan Nottle
are on an anti-violence committee advising the Victorian Government. Both argue that while policing
is important, governments generally are failing to adequately fund violence prevention programs and
social welfare services like child protection, homelessness and mental health.

BRENDAN NOTTLE, YOUTH WORKER, SALVATION ARMY: The problem with the current law and order approach
is that it's a knee-jerk reaction, and that it's one which is designed just for an electoral cycle
and it doesn't actually deal with the deeper issues which are potentially gonna take a generation
to turn around.

JOHN BRUMBY: We spend hundreds of millions dollars every year tackling, tackling inequality in our
community and tackling the causes of disadvantage. I'm pleased I think with the measures that we've
put in place across the state. I think it shows an appropriate balance.

NATASHA JOHNSON: Four nights a week the Salvation Army Youth Bus provides food, entertainment and
outreach services to young people in Melbourne.

BRENDAN NOTTLE: We have a young boy, 15, come here about two weeks ago who held a knife to his
throat. Wanted the take his life because he'd just had enough.

NATASHA JOHNSON: Brendan Nottle says many of the young people he sees come from dysfunctional
families, been victims of abuse or fallen through education and welfare systems. He says those who
carry knives say they do so for protection, but many are also carrying a seething reckless anger.

BRENDAN NOTTLE: I think because they feel that deep sense of injection they don't really value
their life or the lives of others that much at all.

NATASHA JOHNSON: Ty Holdsworth ended up living on the streets at the age of 16 after family
breakdown.

TY HOLDWORTH: It feels very degrading knowing that you've got - there are all these people around
you everywhere in nice houses, warmth and everything and you're stuck out on the streets. It feels
like crap, to be honest. It feels absolute shit.

NATASHA JOHNSON: He's rebuilding his life with the help of the Salvos, but says years of feeling
like no-one cared about him led to alcohol-fuelled rages and fights.

TY HOLDWORTH: I was angry with myself, I was angry with everyone who walked past me. I'd walk down
the street and start swearing at people for no reason other than they were wearing a nicer top. ...
If someone hadda put a knife into my hands, I would not be standing in front of you now. I would be
behind bars, if not, you know, in a morgue.

NATASHA JOHNSON: Soon after the 7.30 Report filmed this 16-year-old by at the Salvos bus, he ended
up dead in a drowning accident in the Yarra River, leaving street workers shattered.

BRENDAN NOTTLE: That's why we actually do this stuff: to try and prevent this from happening. But,
um, um, yeah.

NATASHA JOHNSON: The teenager James Smith was in the care of the state's child protection system,
which has recently been extensively criticised by the Ombudsman and welfare groups.

How can you say you're doing enough when that happens?

JOHN BRUMBY: I'm not gonna comment, obviously, on specific cases. You can't ever have a perfect
system, but we do our best to try and ensure that that's the case.

NATASHA JOHNSON: The Salvos are calling for a long-term road toll-like multi-agency approach to the
violence problem that goes beyond policing. It's clear there's no quick easy solution. In the
meantime, those who've been scarred by violence can only despair.

BRENDAN NOTTLE: What on Earth is going wrong with our society that enables this or allows this to
happen?

SCOTT MAY: It saddened me a lot to come back and to see the way the city was and to have this
happen to me, because that's not the Melbourne I left.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Natasha Johnson with that report.

Christine Milne joins the program

Christine Milne joins the program

Broadcast: 16/09/2010

Reporter: Kerry O'Brien

Kerry O'Brien spoke with Greens Senator Christine Milne fresh from her first meeting with new
Climate Change Minister Greg Combet.

Transcript

KERRY O'BRIEN, PRESENTER: As surprised politicians on all sides today absorbed the significance of
coal mining heavyweight Marius Kloppers of BHP Billiton calling for a lower carbon, less
coal-reliant economy with a carbon tax to reduce greenhouse emissions, Greens senator Christine
Milne met with the Gillard Government's new Climate Change minister Greg Combet in Canberra to
prepare the ground for a new system of carbon trading in Australia.

As part of a formal deal signed with the Greens to guarantee their support for the minority Labor
Government, Julia Gillard agreed to a new parliamentary committee in place of her now infamous
citizens' assembly, made up only of people who support some form of carbon trading, to come up with
a blueprint to replace Labor's ill-fated emissions trading scheme.

But a gulf remains between Labor and the Greens over emissions targets. Labor's commitment remains
stuck at five per cent reductions by 2020. The Greens say it must be much higher.

I spoke with Christine Milne earlier this evening; she was in Canberra.

Christine Milne, you've just come from a meeting with the new Climate Change Minister Greg Combet
on the make-up of the new committee on carbon pricing. Can you shed any light, or any further
light, on the shape of the committee?

CHRISTINE MILNE, GREENS: Well I've had a very good meeting with the new minister. That was my first
opportunity since he was sworn in as minister to sit down and talk with him about the whole issue
of climate change, about renewables, energy efficiency and the carbon price, and they are things
that he's nominated publically as things he wants to really progress. I intend to begin as I will
end, and that is building the relationship with the Government on climate change, and so, we will
deliver the terms of this committee by 30th September as we agreed with the Prime Minister.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But fundamentally, this committee will be just another parliamentary committee, will
it not? In other words, what is gonna be different enough about it to stop Government MPs simply
coming to the table with the Government line, the Greens coming with their fixed position, maybe an
independent or two and the twain not meeting?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well the difference is the current make-up of the Parliament and that's why I'm so
excited about it, Kerry, because where no one party has all the power, when no two parties, even in
this case, in terms of supporting the carbon price, have all the power, then everybody has to sit
down and talk. And the experience out of Scandinavia, from where this idea came, is that when you
have multi-party politics, people have to come to the table with their ideas, but be prepared to
engage with experts, to listen to one another, to nuance their positions and to be able to do so in
a safe environment in a way that absolutely says to the people, "We are serious about coming up
with the best solution we can for the country." Now that is very different from a situation where a
government has the numbers, or is the case of the former Howard Government when they had the
numbers in both houses. This will be a negotiation, and when that happens, you get people of good
will acting together to get a good outcome and that has always been my experience of
balance-of-power politics.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Do you accept the inevitability that there will be a serious limit on what you can
expect on emissions targets from a more conservative Lower House of Parliament, in the terms that
the Government is in minority, number one; number two, an opposition trenchantly opposed to any
emissions trading scheme or any price on carbon, and independents who will be needed to get any
legislation through the Parliament who do represent substantially conservative electorates?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Yes, but I think that there is a real stocktake happening in Australia at the
moment as to what our position is internationally about competitiveness in the Australian economy
in this century. People are starting to realise, as Marius Kloppers said today, that if we stay
dependent on coal, on a fossil fuel economy, then we are going to be increasingly uncompetitive as
other countries move to a low carbon economy. We have the country independents talking about the
importance of renewables to the bush, and it has been the Greens out there saying, "This is the
best opportunity we've got to farm renewable energy in Australia to actually involve this as a
mechanism for a better income for farmers." So they know that. On energy efficiency, everyone is
saying, "We need to use less power because power is expensive, therefore we need to use less. We
need more energy efficiency." So there is a coming-together of ideas here.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But the hot issue is going to remain an emissions trading scheme or some other
mechanism for having a price on carbon. Now I realise that you won't want to throw away your
bargaining position around the table, but presumably the Greens can't afford to be seen to block
the next attempt by the Government to get some sort of carbon pricing mechanism and commitment to
greenhouse reduction target, even if it's not as tough as you would like it to be.

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well I think the Greens demonstrated in the last period of government how we
wanted to negotiate on this. We made very clear that our two prerogatives - or two priorities,
sorry, were, one: to make sure that whatever we came up with had environmental integrity, actually
reduced greenhouse gas emissions consistent with the science; and secondly, was economically
efficient, so that it didn't end up with all of these carve outs and concessions to various sectors
who made their case in the backrooms. Now the Greens then came up with a compromise position which
was a hybrid of both emissions trading and a carbon tax or carbon price and we will continue to
come up with innovative ideas in this committee arrangement. But also we respect the fact that
other people are going to come up with ideas that we may not have considered at this point. The
advantage of getting people around a table is just this: that you can negotiate to get an outcome
you can all agree with.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But can you contemplate an outcome where the Greens would be prepared to sign on to
emissions reductions of only five per cent by 2020 because that is a far cry from what the Greens
have said in the past?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well our main objection to emissions trading scheme was that it locked in a weak
target out to 2020, which was essentially going to leave us getting beyond the tipping points, and
also it didn't make the polluters pay, it wasn't going to transform the economy towards the
renewable energy sector, towards the jobs in energy efficiency and renewables. What we hope to get
out of this conversation on a carbon price is to make sure that we start the transformation in
Australia that we need and that we get genuine reductions here in Australia not dependent on
trading and importing permits from overseas. But we are gonna have this discussion, and I think the
Prime Minister made this point today: that it's silly to rule things in and rule things out. We
need to start here with good faith negotiations saying, "We want to get a carbon price," and from
the Greens' point of view, we would like to have that as soon as possible.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Marius Kloppers says that while he supports putting a price on carbon, he says that
can only be effective if it's operated in a revenue-neutral manner by the Government. In what
circumstance would the Greens support that principle?

CHRISTINE MILNE: Well, Marius Kloppers has his view about how a carbon price would work. He also
said that it should be in conjunction with land use changes, with regulation. I think he also
mentioned - and he was just putting on the table the fact that there is no silver bullet in
addressing this, that it will be a combination of measures. We agree with that. Probably the
measures that he talks about would be different from ours. But it should be remembered that the
Greens agreed with the Government in the last period of the Parliament that revenue raised should
be returned in the same measure. We agreed on that in terms of consumers and that is something that
the Greens are very conscious about to make sure that the polluters pay here, that it doesn't get
taken out of the consolidated fund, as indeed Tony Abbott would do. We want to make sure that the
polluters pay for the pollution that they generate and the real costs of climate change which we
are all suffering and paying for.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Very briefly, what do you think is a reasonable timeframe for this committee to
meet, discuss and come up with recommendations?

CHRISTINE MILNE: We will be announcing the details of the committee by 30th of this month. That
will answer those questions. But I can assure you that the Greens have always campaigned to try to
achieve a carbon price as soon as possible and that remains our position.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Christine Milne, thanks for talking with us.

CHRISTINE MILNE: Thankyou.

NRL betting under scrutiny

NRL betting under scrutiny

Broadcast: 16/09/2010

Reporter: Conor Duffy

A potential NRL betting scandal has experts warning that without more regulation, the integrity of
the sport could be compromised.

Transcript

KERRY O'BRIEN, PRESENTER: As the National Rugby League enjoys one of its closest finals series in
years, the code is also facing a potential betting scandal.

A police strike force has been set up to look at a betting plunge on a recent match, and now the
Senate will investigate as well.

The type of wagering under the spotlight is micro-betting, similar to the betting linked to the
Pakistani cricket scandal where gamblers wager on small outcomes within games.

Experts are warning that more regulation and scrutiny of this type of betting is needed to protect
the integrity of all sport.

Conor Duffy reports.

CONOR DUFFY, REPORTER: It didn't seem like there was much to play for in last month's NRL game
between the North Queensland Cowboys and the Canterbury Bulldogs. Both teams had missed out on the
finals, but off the field, hundreds of thousands of dollars were riding on the game. Bets had
poured in for an unusual betting market that the Cowboys would score first from a penalty goal. The
odds on that result shortened from $13 to $7 and bookmakers across the country suspended betting.

ALAN ESKANDER, BETSTAR: To have so many new phone calls and so many clients ringing up trying to
open accounts, and so many people interested in such a peculiar bet type, it just sent alarm bells
ringing for us and we just thought, "Wow, this stinks. Let's take some precautions and rip this
market down."

MICHAEL SULLIVAN, SPORTINGBET: It was certainly unusual in a bet type that we don't turn over a lot
of money and there were unusual inquiries.

CONOR DUFFY: Canterbury forward Ryan Tandy knocked the ball on from the kick off and then gave away
a penalty in front of the goalposts.

The stage was set for punters to take home $250,000, but their hopes were dashed when North
Queensland decided to run the ball and scored a try instead.

Ryan Tandy strongly denies doing anything wrong. A police and Senate investigation are now
underway.

DAVID GALLOP, NRL CHIEF EXECUTIVE: Some time after that game we received some information around
betting patterns to do with the match. We engaged Ray Murrihy, chief steward from NSW Racing, to
look into the matter for us. He found certain information and brought it to us. We decided to refer
it to the NSW police and it's currently in their hands.

NICK XENOPHON, INDEPENDENT: You could say that lawmakers, the sporting codes have literally dropped
the ball when it comes to the impact of sports betting on the integrity of our sporting codes.

CONOR DUFFY: Sources familiar with the initial NRL investigation say it was not just the large
amount of money wagered on a little-used market, but attempts to camouflage the bets and also the
people placing them that attracted suspicion. Ryan Tandy, the Canterbury Bulldogs and the NSW
Police all declined to be interviewed for this story, and now betting and sporting communities
right across the country are eagerly awaiting the results of the police investigation.

DAVID GALLOP: Clearly it goes to the very core of the integrity of the contest that we're seeking
to put on and the penalties would have to be severe. I would have thought that a individual
involved in match-fixing would be facing a life ban.

CONOR DUFFY: Melbourne bookmaker Alan Eskander is writing to the NRL to complain about two other
matches, including a game late last month between the Wests Tigers and the Melbourne Storm. He's
concerned about that match because of a late plunge on the Tigers.

ALAN ESKANDER: That is very suspicious and requires some serious investigation by the NRL, and once
again, I think matter needs to be referred to the police and the police probably need to look into
it.

CONOR DUFFY: A spokesman for the Melbourne Storm stays the comments are ridiculous and the Wests
Tigers say they're not aware of any allegations levelled at the club.

Other bookmakers and the NRL hotly contest whether there is a systemic problem with NRL betting.

MICHAEL SULLIVAN: I don't think there's much using go back and analytically trying to whinge about
it because you've lost your money on it. And I fear that some of those that are coming up with a
few of these games, which I see nothing wrong with whinging.

ALAN ESKANDER: Very bluntly speaking, the trends we're seeing is come towards the end of the season
if teams haven't got anything to play for, there's some very suspicious betting activity going on.

DAVID GALLOP: Any time that there are rumours around any aspect of the game that are unproven, it's
frustrating. This is just another example of that.

CONOR DUFFY: What's agreed is that laws governing internet gaming have failed to keep pace with the
explosion in online betting. The laws were passed almost 10 years ago and even some betting
operators are calling for new regulations.

HUGH TAGGART, BETFAIR: The UK has implemented some legislation that focuses on cheating in sport or
gambling-related corruption. So, that's certainly something that we could look at here and I know
that the sports and some of the leading wagering operators are in favour of doing something like
that.

MALCOLM SPEED, COALITION OF MAJOR PROFESSIONAL SPORTS: I think it could work in Australia. There is
a problem here that each of the states has different legislation to deal with this sort of offence.

CONOR DUFFY: In the meantime, the former head of the International Cricket Council Malcolm Speed
has been employed by Cricket Australia, the NRL, the Australian Rugby Union, the AFL and others to
investigate how sports can protect their integrity from the gambling surge. Micro or spot betting,
where punters gamble on outcomes such as who will score first, is a key focus.

MALCOLM SPEED: It's become a bit more complicated with online interactive gambling, with the sort
of spot gambling that we see where punters can gamble on small aspects of the game.

CONOR DUFFY: Australia's major sporting bodies don't want to give up the millions in licence fees
they earn from betting operators and disagree agree with anti-gambling advocates who say Australia
risks a scandal similar to the one engulfing the Pakistani cricket team.

NICK XENOPHON: Let's suspend ball-by-ball betting until we have an overview to see what is going
wrong, because clearly things are going wrong now.

MALCOLM SPEED: It's here the stay. It raises problems for administrators, and I think that's one of
the major reasons why our working party is looking at these issues because we want to make sure
that everything that can be done to insulate Australian sports and sportsmen and women from
corruption is being done.

KERRY O'BRIEN: That report from Conor Duffy.

Clarke and Dawe on the political paradigm

Clarke and Dawe on the political paradigm

Print

Australian Broadcasting Corporation

Broadcast: 16/09/2010

Reporter: John Clarke and Bryan Dawe

John Clarke and Byan Dawe share their thoughts on the new political paradigm.

Transcript

KERRY O'BRIEN, PRESENTER: Here is John Clarke and Bryan Dawe with their wise thoughts on the new
political paradigm.

BRYAN DAWE: Tony Windsor, thanks for your time.

JOHN CLARKE: Good evening, Bryan. Very good to be with you.

BRYAN DAWE: And Rob Oakeshott, thanks for your time.

JOHN CLARKE: It's a pleasure to be here.

BRYAN DAWE: Now can I ask both of you first, do you expect this government that you have installed
to go the full term?

JOHN CLARKE (doubling up as Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott): Very difficult to say in the case of
this government, Bryan, as it would be in the case of any government. Although if it doesn't go
full term, it certainly won't be a problem created by the independents. Because quite clearly it's
in our best interests for the government to work. We've put it there; it's basically our
government.

BRYAN DAWE: Hang on, you are both talking together.

JOHN CLARKE (doubling up as Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott): Pardon?

BRYAN DAWE: You're both talking together.

JOHN CLARKE (doubling up as Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott): Well you asked both of us a question.

BRYAN DAWE: Yes, but I didn't mean for both of you to answer at the same time.

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): You did say, "Can I ask both of you?" Maybe he meant, "Can I ask
either of you?"

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Well he did say, "Can I ask both of you?"

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Yes.

BRYAN DAWE: I meant can I ask each of you?

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Yeah, well that's not what you said.

BRYAN DAWE: Well maybe not, but that's not what I meant.

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Well, look, if you're not gonna say what you mean, how can you
blame us if we don't understand what you're saying?

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Well don't look at me, Bryan. He asked you the question.

BRYAN DAWE: Actually, I asked the question.

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Yeah. It wasn't as good as his question.

BRYAN DAWE: Look, I'll explain how this works, gentlemen. I ask the question; you guys answer it.
OK?

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Have you done this sort of work before, have you?

BRYAN DAWE: Yes, I've done it for 20 years.

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Fair enough.

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Maybe ask another question, Bryan.

BRYAN DAWE: You haven't answered my first one yet.

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): You've already told us it's not what you meant!

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Yeah, have you got something else there, Bryan.

BRYAN DAWE: Right. I would just like to know how long do you think this government will last?

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Well who are you asking?

BRYAN DAWE: Both of you.

JOHN CLARKE (doubling up as Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott): Well we hope it'll last a very long
time.

BRYAN DAWE: Not together.

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Do you mean "Each of you".

BRYAN DAWE: I just want to get both of you to answer the question.

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Separate?

BRYAN DAWE: Of course separately!

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Well I hope the Government goes full term.

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Yeah, so do I, Bryan.

BRYAN DAWE: So you do think the same?

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Well we do on that issue.

BRYAN DAWE: Look, either you have the same view about something or you don't.

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): That's correct.

BRYAN DAWE: Well which is it?

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Well we don't.

BRYAN DAWE: Well you have so far.

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): So far you've only asked one question.

BRYAN DAWE: Look, this is this new paradigm?

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Well who are you asking?

BRYAN DAWE: Both of you!

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Do you mean either of us?

BRYAN DAWE: Yes, do either of you think this is the new paradigm?

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Yes.

BRYAN DAWE: Yes what?

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Well yes I do.

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Yeah, he does, Bryan. He told me that earlier.

BRYAN DAWE: Oh, this is hopeless. Hopeless.

JOHN CLARKE (as Tony Windsor): Well done, Rob.

JOHN CLARKE (as Rob Oakeshott): Well done, Tony.

KERRY O'BRIEN: I don't think it'll be quite as bad as that.

Don't forget 'Stateline' tomorrow. I will be back on Monday. For now goodnight.