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And a form guard has told us corporation running detention centres has been throwing raw recruits
into Villawood without proper training.

The new recruits were just basically put on the floor, no training whatsoever, they were being told
that they would be trained as they were and that also has never happened before. THEME MUSIC

Good evening and welcome to Lateline. I'm Tony Jones, the roof top protesters at Sydney's Villawood
Detention Centre rioting in which buildings were set on fire and destroying. Shortly we'll be
joined by the Greens immigration spokesperson Sarah Hanson-Young and later in the program, former
the program, former British tabloid editor and media commentator Roy Greenslade gives us his take
on the 'News of the World' phone hacking scandal as the A list of hacked celebrities continue to
grow so does the list of senior Murdoch journalists under investigation by police. But just how
high up the News Corp ladder will the scandal go. That's coming up. First our other headlines.
Police brutality, allegations that senior Sri Lankan police beat two failed aslyum seekers in the
presence of an Australian Federal police officer. More millions for mental health. The Government
promises funding move funding for mental illness. And an imperial welcome imperial welcome for

Asylum seekers continue rooftop protest

Asylum seekers continue rooftop protest

Broadcast: 21/04/2011

Reporter: Karen Barlow

Asylum seekers at Sydney's Villawood Detention Centre are continuing a rooftop protest tonight
after last night setting fire to the centre.


TONY JONES, PRESENTER: Amid the charred destruction, a rooftop protest is continuing tonight at
Sydney's Villawood Detention Centre. Australian Federal Police are now enforcing security at the
compound after a small protest last night developed into a full-scale riot. Around 100 detainees
were involved in the riot, torching the complex and destroying buildings. The Federal Government
says the behaviour of some of the asylum seekers was potentially criminal and the violence won't
help their case to stay in Australia.

Karen Barlow reports and Alison McClymont was the producer.

KAREN BARLOW, REPORTER: Scorched, trashed and locked down. The Villawood Detention Centre remains a
sight of protest action. A handful of asylum seekers are holding out on the tiles. The detention
centre was set on fire, while asylum seekers overwhelmed staff from the immigration detention
centre service provider, Serco. The action, which started with two detainees on a roof and grew to
around 100, led to the riot police being called. This complex of demountable buildings was
destroyed. Firefighters were thwarted by an asylum seeker throwing roof tiles and furniture.

JULIA GILLARD, PRIME MINISTER: Violence doesn't get anyone anywhere. Violence in no way makes a
difference to the way people's claims are processed or assessed.

KAREN BARLOW: Those on the rooftop had their refugee claims rejected, some twice. This Iranian man,
Majid, has been in detention for 20 months.

MAJID, IRANIAN ASYLUM SEEKER: I'm human. I need freedom. I want freedom. I don't want prison. I
want protection, not detention.

KAREN BARLOW: The Immigration Minister Chris Bowen has been personally ringing the men on the roof.

What did he say?

MAJID: Nothing. Just ask me when you want to come down? I say never; I don't want to come down for

KAREN BARLOW: After the Christmas Island riots in March which led to tear gas and beanbag rounds
being fired on asylum seekers, the Federal Government denies it's lost control of the immigration

CHRIS BOWEN, IMMIGRATION MINISTER: I think when you're managing what is a large detention
population, you're also dealing with issues around people having their asylum claims rejected and
the obvious frustration that that causes people, you are going to have these sort of issues.

SCOTT MORRISON, OPPOSITION IMMIGRATION SPOKESMAN: Australians are sick and tired of waking up to
reports of detention centres being set alight and of police being attacked by rioting asylum

KAREN BARLOW: But a former guard at Villawood has come forward, describing a privatised detention
system in crisis. He says problems at the centre have been building for some time.

FORMER VILLAWOOD DETENTION CENTRE GUARD: It's pretty unprecedented, really. Yeah, never seen
anything like it before in Villawood's entire history. I don't think there's been that much
destruction at all.

KAREN BARLOW: He says his former employer Serco does not train staff properly.

FORMER VILLAWOOD DETENTION CENTRE GUARD: Basically, from what I've seen, the new recruits were just
basically put on the floor, no training whatsoever, they were being told that they would be trained
as they were, and that also has never happened before. Basically what is supposed to happen is that
they're meant to go through a - at least a minimum six-week course and then have a year of
on-the-job training. Serco just basically got rid of the six-week course using staffing levels as
an excuse, and then basically just threw the staff straight onto the floor and expected that the
experienced staff to train as well as do their normal jobs.

KAREN BARLOW: The former guard says the Federal Government should review Serco's contract.

FORMER VILLAWOOD DETENTION CENTRE GUARD: They've had pretty poor performance and basically the
spate of incidences, major incidences under Serco's control, have been - there's just been too
many. Um, so, yeah, I think that the contract should really be reassessed.

KAREN BARLOW: The Government's review of last month's riots at Christmas Island will now also
investigate the Villawood protests. That will include the response of Serco and the Immigration

CHRIS BOWEN: Well there's no evidence before me to indicate that any actions by Serco or Department
of Immigration staff on the ground at the centres led to these incidents or that the response
wasn't adequate. But I am not going to pre-empt the results of the Hawke-Williams review. I'm
looking forward to receiving that review, and if there are lessons to be learnt, they'll be learnt
out of that review.

KAREN BARLOW: It is these sorts of incidents that are making people near the sites of other
detention centres nervous. The West Australian Premier Colin Barnett says he's concerned about
security at the new detention centre at Northam. And last night, north of Hobart, residents were
angered by plans to build a detention centre in Tasmania.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: We don't know what kind of people we're going be introducing into our community,
around our children.

KAREN BARLOW: Criminal charges may be laid against some of those involved in the Villawood riots.

Karen Barlow, Lateline.

TONY JONES: And in a statement tonight, Serco acknowledged an increased number of arrivals and
longer periods of detention have placed significant pressures on their operations. The company said
its staff training program meets it contractual requirements. It's also said it's provided
additional training beyond what is contracted and has invested $1.5 million in staff training.

Clarification: A spokesman for the Minister for Immigration, Chris Bowen, has said that claims by
asylum seekers and advocates that Mr Bowen has personally called protesting asylum seekers at the
Villawood detention centre are incorrect. The spokesman said Mr Bowen has not called any of those
asylum seekers.

riots. In a statement tonight, Serco acknowledged an increased number of arrivals and longer
periods of detention have placed significant pressures on their operation. The company said its
staff training program immediates it contractual requirements, also said beyond what is contracted

Detention operator should be audited: Greens

Reporter: Tony Jones

Greens immigration spokesman Senator Sarah Hanson-Young says the Government's detention centre
operator, Serco, should be audited in the wake of the recent riots.


TONY JONES, PRESENTER: Joining us from Adelaide is the Greens spokesperson on immigration and
citizenship, Senator Sarah Hanson-Young.

Thanks for being there.

Okay. Do you agree with the minister that these riots are the result of increased rejection rates
of asylum seekers, in other words, the results of a tougher asylum policy?

seen and the increase of tension and frustration, not just in Villawood, but across all of the
detention facilities, are of a result of long-term detention, a lack of information to those in
detention, confusion about the process, a lack of clarity and of course the overcrowding in certain
areas and the shunting from one detention centre to the next. Of course, the Government on this one
- and I saw the minister's interview on the 7.30 program this afternoon, or this evening, where he
again has his head buried in the sand on this. There is a crisis going on in the immigration
detention facilities. It is at breaking point everywhere you look. And the only way, the only way
to get out of this is to review the entire process and to start realising that without limits on
detention, without moving people through the process, being clear about that, these tensions are
simply going to continue to rise.

TONY JONES: Alright. We'll come to that in more detail in a moment. First we've just heard claims
from a former guard that Serco, the private corporation running the detention centres, has been
throwing raw recruits in at the deep end at Villawood Detention Centre without proper training. How
serious a breach would that be?

SARAH HANSON-YOUNG: Look, I think that's very serious. And unfortunately, it's those types of
reports that we've been hearing on the ground for some time now, not just in Villawood, but in
other facilities. Questions over the adequate training of those who have to work with children,
adequate training for those on the ground every day having to work with asylum seekers who are
clearly suffering severe mental health concerns, suffering torture and trauma from the persecution
and torture they've suffered.

Now, it's - I really feel for the Serco security officers on this one. They are at the cold face in
a very, very difficult situation. And the Serco officers that I talk to when I visit detention
centres, I've never been anywhere where I haven't had an officer come up to me and say, "Hang on,
Senator, let me tell you the real story." And that is a concern. It's about time the Government
reviewed the contract, had an urgent audit of the types of operations that are going on and realise
that the promise that they broke in 2007 to bring back into public hands the running of detention
centres, when they broke that promise, they made a mistake.

TONY JONES: So, the Greens strongly believe, do they, that the detention centres should be
re-nationalised in effect?

SARAH HANSON-YOUNG: Well, at the last - at the 2007 election, the Labor Party said because of the
situation that we'd seen happen for the decade or half before them, the situation of rioting across
the different detention centres, including on Nauru under the Howard Government, the Labor Party
said, "Yes, I think it's about time we started to have more transparency in the process." Of course
Labor got into power, they won government and we've never seen that promise acted upon. I do think
it's time ...

TONY JONES: But can I just interrupt you there? Why would - why do you believe public servants
would do any better than Serco?

SARAH HANSON-YOUNG: I think it's about the transparency. Since the contract was signed with Serco,
some two and a half years ago, people, as myself in Senate Estimates, advocates have been asking to
see the contract. Let's see what the service provision requirements are. When the Government talks
about possible breaches, let's have a look at what those possible breaches are. There's no set
auditing, there's no regular auditing and because no-one knows what the service contract is because
it's in-confidence, commercial-in-confidence, there's nothing to judge that on. And I think that
really does raise questions about how these facilities are being run at taxpayers' money and then
when tensions rise like this, who is to blame? Well, at the moment only the Government can take the
blame. But we really need to get down to the issues of seeing what is going on on the ground.

TONY JONES: Okay. Chris Bowen says he's got virtually now two inquiries underway, with the same
team doing the inquiry of course, the Christmas Island riots, now this one looking into the
circumstances of the riots and the preparedness of Serco to actually deal with these things. I
mean, should he wait before acting, wait for the results of these inquiries?

SARAH HANSON-YOUNG: Well, look, first and foremost, I think we really need to make it very clear
that we all condemn the violence, we all condemn the property damage of the riots and I don't think
anyone can argue that the writing has made the situation any better in either of the facilities and
for anybody there, particularly those directly involved. I don't think it's made their cases any
better. But why this has occurred is what should be being investigated. The complex reasons behind
the rise of the tensions and really trying to move forward to a solution. If the Government only
wants to look at individual case by individual case, they will fail to address it. There is a
systematic problem in the immigration detention network. It all needs to be reviewed.

TONY JONES: Let's ask what the Greens are prepared to do then because you're in a unique position.
I mean, you're in an alliance with the Labor government and they require your votes in the Senate
to get key legislation through. I mean, are you prepared to use that leverage to force changes in
the immigration system?

SARAH HANSON-YOUNG: Well I think the Government has two options: they can either take the Tony
Abbott line, which is simply "stop the boats". Tony Abbott is in some fairyland world where he
thinks life is so simple that if you say that magic will happen and the problem will go away. Well,
that's clearly not the case. He likes to trivialise this. He did it today on the mental health
issue ...

TONY JONES: Yes, but I'm going to interrupt you there because I'm asking now specifically what the
Greens are prepared to do. I mean, for example, you want essentially to end mandatory detention.
Are you prepared to use your political leverage to force the Government to do that?

SARAH HANSON-YOUNG: Well, as I was saying, I think the Government has two choices: they either are
buying into the fairyland tale of Tony Abbott, or they look at the harsh realities that this system
needs to be overturned. We need time limits on detention, we need judiciary review so the system is
fair and I am very clear and we need to ensure that children, first and foremost, are not caught up
in the system. They're three clear things that the Government needs to do, and I'm not saying
they're easy, but they do need to happen.

I currently have two private members bills before the Parliament, ready to be debated, and if Chris
Bowen and the Government want to actually take some action to fix this, let's sit around the table
and let's talk about it, otherwise they will continue to get drawn into the dreamland world of
"stop the boats" and Tony Abbott's easy slogans.

TONY JONES: But I'll ask you for a third time: are the Greens prepared to use their political
leverage to force the Government into action?

SARAH HANSON-YOUNG: I will continue to say to the Government, "This is the way forward. This is how
we can fix it." And at every turn, at every opportunity, I will put forward the solutions. I really
think that the public are sick and tired ...

TONY JONES: But that is simply rhetoric. The question is: are you prepared to use your political
power, your leverage, the Greens, to force the Government to do something?

SARAH HANSON-YOUNG: Well, Tony, I think we are using our political leverage, because we are the
only ones out there saying, "This is the solution." And if we are going to have a long-term
solution that is humane and that is practical, well the Government needs to get on board. I'm more
than happy, my door is always open, let's talk about it, let's get it done. It's not going to be
simple ...

TONY JONES: But you're not prepared to link this to other issues vital to the Government's mandate?

SARAH HANSON-YOUNG: Well, I think it's already linked to the Government's credibility on a raft of
things. When you're the minister in a serious interview tonight, after all of the events of the
last 24 hours, all of the issues going on in immigration detention in the last few months, to sit
there and pretend that somehow this isn't a big problem and there isn't a crisis, this is clearly a
problem for the Government and it's time that we started to work it out.

TONY JONES: Sarah Hanson-Young, I don't think we finally did get an answer to that question asked I
think on four occasions, but we'll see what happens. Thank you very much.

SARAH HANSON-YOUNG: Thank you, Tony.

Failed asylum seekers allegedly beaten

Reporter: Peter Lloyd

The Federal Government has rejected claims from two failed asylum seekers that they were beaten in
Sri Lanka in front of an Australian official.


TONY JONES, PRESENTER: The Federal Government has expressed concern for the welfare of police
suspects in Sri Lanka after claims of abuse were levelled by two failed asylum seekers who were
arrested following their return from Australia. The men say Sri Lankan police beat them on the head
and body during an interrogation carried out in the presence of an Australian Federal Police
officer stationed in the Sri Lankan capital, Colombo.

The Australian Federal Police strenuously deny witnessing the assault. The AFP have told Lateline
that the complaint led them to raise concerns over the treatment of prisoners with their Sri Lankan
counterparts, who in turn also denied the allegation. Peter Lloyd reports, with additional research
by Joel Keep and Rebecca Lever.

PETER LLOYD, REPORTER: Since 2009, four federal police officers have been stationed at the
Australian High Commission in Colombo. They were despatched to help Sri Lankan police stop the flow
of boats carrying asylum seekers to Australia.

According to the AFP, the role of the Australians is to, "... exchange criminal intelligence
regarding the organisers and facilitators of people smuggling."

The AFP says it also provides its Sri Lankan counterparts with equipment, training and co-operation
in prosecutions.

Now this prominent Sri Lankan human rights lawyer has questioned the closeness of that
relationship. Lakshan Dias says an Australian federal policeman was present during the beating of
two brothers when they were in Sri Lankan police custody.

LAKSHAN DIAS, HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER: What my clients told me, while they were mistreated, they have
seen this AFP is coming in and out of this particular section. So there's no reason that the
particular AFP officer should not see that the interrogations and atrocities towards my clients.
And my clients told me that they saw that the AFP officer have seen these interrogations .

PETER LLOYD: Sumith Mendis and his brother Indika were detained in 2009 at the Christmas Island
detention centre after the boat they were on was stopped by Australian authorities. In time, their
claim for asylum was rejected and were deported back to Sri Lanka.

Last August they were arrested by Sri Lankan police on the apparent suspicion that they were
planning to make another attempt to leave Sri Lanka by boat on another journey to Australia. It's
while in custody they say they were beaten.

An affidavit details the abuse allegations by one of the men, Sumith Mendis.

SUMITH MENDIS, AFFADAVIT (male voiceover): "... I was severely tortured and I was unable to pass
urine for two days and had an unbearable pain in my body ... they put a piece of wood in to my head
and inserted nails into the piece of wood ..."

PETER LLOYD: According to Sumith's affidavit, an Australian federal policeman was present during
his interrogation. It's a claim he repeated during an interview by phone from a prison in Sri Lanka
where he is still being held on charges of attempting to leave the country illegally.

SUMITH MENDIS (voiceover translation): I asked the Sri Lankan authorities to speak to him. He would
have heard it. I said it in English, "I want to speak to you," but he didn't take any notice of me.

PETER LLOYD: The Sri Lankan Criminal Investigation Department, or CID, has a notorious reputation
for violent treatment of suspects. During the civil war and since, it has been accused of
involvement in the disappearance and murder of countless Sri Lankan civilians. To many, the CID is
a byword for state-sponsored violence.

LAKSHAN DIAS: If you say that you are taken into CID, everybody gets scared, because it's a known
thing in Sri Lanka.

PETER LLOYD: Lateline put a series of questions about these claims to the Australian Federal
Police. In a statement, the AFP said:

AFP (male voiceover): "The AFP can confirm records indicate an AFP officer was present in the
building on the day the offence was alleged to occur. The officer was attending to duties unrelated
to the male person. At no stage did the AFP officer witness any mistreatment by CID officers of any
persons held in custody. As part of the Sri Lankan legal process, all defendants appearing before
court must first be examined by a judicial medical officer. The AFP has no knowledge of any
concerns being raised."

PETER LLOYD: That's at odds with the understanding of Amnesty International. It says the brothers
were taken to Colombo's Negombo Prison and treated for injuries.

they had been beaten and it identified the bruising and it clearly showed that the statements that
they had made about their treatment was borne out in terms of the physical scarring that they were
able to show to the medical doctor.

PETER LLOYD: The Foreign Affairs Department too acknowledges the abuse claim.

FOREIGN AFFAIRS DEPARTMENT (male voiceover): "The Australian Government has been advised that the
AFP is aware of these allegations and advise their officer at no time witnessed the mistreatment."

PETER LLOYD: And as far as back as last August, Foreign Affairs was concerned enough to raise the
issue with the Sri Lankans.

FOREIGN AFFAIRS DEPARTMENT (male voiceover): "The Australian Government, including through our High
Commission in Colombo, has made, and continues to make clear to Sri Lankan authorities our concern
for the welfare of any suspects in custody."

GRAHAM THOM: There needs to be some transparency in terms of what sort of training, what sort of
aid, what sort of assistance Australia is given to those authorities and we need to be very clear
that the people who they are intercepting are not at risk of torture, they're not at risk of abuse
because quite clearly the evidence shows that there is ongoing torture and mistreatment of people
by those authorities.

PETER LLOYD: Peter Lloyd, Lateline.

Gillard meets Japanese emperor

Reporter: Mark Simkin

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has been granted an audience with Japan's emperor to convey
Australia's support for the recovery efforts in Japan.


TONY JONES, PRESENTER: Prime Minister Julia Gillard has met her Japanese counterpart Naoto Kan.
During the talks they agreed to continue to develop closer civil and military co-operation and work
together to strengthen global nuclear safety standards.

Well earlier in the day, Julia Gillard had an audience with the emperor, where she offered more
help with post-tsunami reconstruction if it's needed.

Chief political correspondent Mark Simkin is travelling with the Prime Minister and filed this
report from Tokyo.

MARK SIMKIN, REPORTER: Japan's a country in crisis, but its guest got a royal welcome. It's the
first time Julia Gillard's met an emperor and it's something of a novelty for him too.

JULIA GILLARD, PRIME MINISTER: As I understand it, we are the first de facto couple to meet with
the emperor and empress. The meeting proceeded just as I'm sure it normally would.

MARK SIMKIN: The audience took place in the emperor's private residence. Other parts of the palace
are closed. After the catastrophes, even the imperial family's rationing power.

JULIA GILLARD: It was a great privilege to see their majesties. They expressed to both of us their
very sincere gratitude for the work that Australia has done to assist the people of Japan in the
wake of the devastating earthquake and tsunami.

MARK SIMKIN: Australia despatched a search and rescue team and transport plane soon after the
tsunami hit. Senior Japanese parliamentarians praised the response. One didn't seem too excited,
but others hailed Julia Gillard's plans for later in the trip.

JAPANESE PARLIAMENTARIAN (voiceover translation): I heard the Prime Minister is going to visit
disaster-affected areas. I am sure this will encourage those affected by this disaster.

JULIA GILLARD: As well as being very moved by the loss of life, Australians are full of admiration
for the stoicism and resilience of the Japanese people in the face of this disaster.

MARK SIMKIN: A short time ago Julia Gillard delivered the same message to an even more senior
politician, the prime minister. She brought with her a symbol of friendship: a helmet that belonged
to the head of the Australian search and rescue team.

The Japanese counterpart was clearly impressed with the present and his guest's presence.

NAOTO KAN, JAPANESE PRIME MINISTER (voiceover translation): The Prime Minister's visit to Japan
shows Japan is safe. I think her visit is more powerful than a million words and express my
heartfelt thanks to her.

MARK SIMKIN: The two leaders agreed to disagree on whaling, but agreed to co-operate on a host of
other issues, including a possible free trade deal. Naoto Kan said he wants to restart serious
negotiations as soon as the nuclear and humanitarian crises calm down.

Mark Simkin, Lateline.

Mental health package in budget: Swan

Acting Prime Minister Wayne Swan has confirmed mental health will get funding in next month's
budget as the Opposition calls for more to be done.


TONY JONES, PRESENTER: The winners and losers in the next budget are beginning to emerge. The
public service will be asked to slim down to fit into tighter budget conditions. Meanwhile the
mentally ill and their families are said to get more help, though there's a scramble on both sides
of politics to claim credit.

From Canberra, political correspondent Tom Iggulden reports.

TOM IGGULDEN, REPORTER: Wayne Swan's making a personal contribution to Queensland's recovery by
taking a holiday in Cairns.

WAYNE SWAN, ACTING PRIME MINISTER: I certainly hope to get out of the reef one day. Maybe up to the
rainforest another.

TOM IGGULDEN: Good for the body and apparently the soul, with a promise to follow through on
commitments to improve mental health services.

WAYNE SWAN: We'll do that and we'll announce that in our budget.

TOM IGGULDEN: A picture opportunity with mental health advocate Patrick McGorry all but confirms an
increase in funding.

Further south, Tony Abbott met with another mental health advocate, Ian Hickey.

He got ahead of the Government with his mental health announcement, promising an extra $430
million, taking his total commitment to around $2 billion.

TONY ABBOTT: Nothing would give me greater pleasure and satisfaction than to see the Prime Minister
match the announcements that I am going to make today.

TOM IGGULDEN: But the acting Prime Minister says Mr Abbott hasn't outlined how he'd pay for it.

WAYNE SWAN: A half a billion-dollar blank cheque when it comes to his proposals in mental health.

TOM IGGULDEN: But there's unlikely to be much difference in the Government's plans come budget

PATRICK MCGORRY, MENTAL HEALTH ADVOCATE: Mr Abbott's plan is very positive. It's very similar in
complexion to what is emerging out of the processes we've been involved in with government. So I
think there's a confluence of policy here.

IAN HICKEY, UNI. OF SYDNEY: And I think we are very fortunate at this stage to have the two major
leaders in the land contesting these very issues.

TOM IGGULDEN: The extra spending goes against the grain of the tough budget the Government's been
forecasting, so too smooth things over its announced cuts to the public service, on top of those
it's already committed to through the so-called "efficiency dividend".

PENNY WONG, FINANCE MINISTER: Which will yield savings of around $465 million through better
day-to-day running of government.

NADINE FLOOD, COMMUNITY AND PUBLIC SECTOR UNION: This increased efficiency dividend will have an
impact on frontline services such as Centrelink and Medicare. It could affect border protection and
airports, it could have been an impact on cultural institutions and scientific research.

TOM IGGULDEN: Labor backbencher Stephen Jones was the former secretary of the public service union
who once described the efficiency dividend as a blunt instrument.

STEPHEN JONES, LABOR: I still believe the efficiency dividend, Lyndal, is a blunt instrument, but
what we know as we walk into what is going be a very tough budget, the savings have to be found.

TOM IGGULDEN: And the Budget's still weeks away.

Tom Iggulden, Lateline.

Former editor calls for UK phone scandal inquiry

Former Daily Mirror editor Roy Greenslade says there should be an concentrated inquiry into the UK
paper at the centre of a phone hacking scandal.


TONY JONES, PRESENTER: Earlier this week British Labour's Ed Miliband became the first party leader
to call for an independent review of Britain's press following the revelations of phone hacking by
the tabloid News of the World. The paper has now admitted it was involved in hacking and it's
apologised, but police believe the practice may be much more widespread than first thought with
possibly hundreds of people affected.

Already this story has seen the imprisonment of the News of the World's former royal editor Clive
Goodman and a private investigator, Glenn Mulcaire. It also led to the resignation of prime
minister David Cameron's press secondary, Andy Coulson, a former editor.

Well to discuss the evolving story, we're joined in London by Roy Greenslade. He's a professor of
journalism at City University London, a columnist with The Guardian and a former editor of the
Daily Mirror.

Thanks for being there, Roy.


TONY JONES: Let's start with some basics: who is Glenn Mulcaire and why was he employed by the News
of the World in the first place?

ROY GREENSLADE: Mr Mulcaire is a former footballer who turned himself into a private investigator
in his - after his career stopped kicking the ball, and he made a habit of obtaining information
which was difficult for people normally to get hold of, probably involving police information which
is not readily available even to journalists who cultivate the police. So he was viewed within the
News of the World, which put him on a contract for ?100,000 a year - he was viewed as an essential
part really, para staff, as it were, in order to obtain information on behalf of the reporters.

TONY JONES: And one of the puzzling aspects of this is that the original police investigation only
turned up evidence that about a dozen victims had been hacked in the operation. There's now a
second investigation and it seems to suggest that possibly hundreds have been hacked. Why was this
missed by the police first time around?

ROY GREENSLADE: Well, we don't know. That's part of the mystery, part of the reason that this story
has lasted for five years. The royal editor you mentioned and Mr Mulcaire went to jail in 2006 and
it's taken that long for this story to unravel. And I think the oddity is that we know the police
originally found in Mr Mulcaire's home many notes, many documents containing probably, possibly,
3,000 names. We're not quite certain, but certainly hundreds of names, of celebrities, politicians,
agents, PR agents and so on, and also a number of PIN numbers, the numbers to their cell phones.

And unfortunately the police decided in their wisdom that they were only going to proceed with the
cases involving Prince William and Prince Harry. The reasons for that have yet to emerge, but there
has been a suggestion that there was a misunderstanding between the police investigators and the
prosecution services in which the police misunderstood some advice from the crown prosecution
service. This has led to a row between the crown prosecution service and the metropolitan police
which itself at the moment is unresolved, but is part of the reason that the police are now
investigating the police and re-investigating the whole aspect of phone hacking at the News of the

TONY JONES: It's all very odd. This private investigator Mulcaire has racked up hundreds of
thousands of pounds in legal fees. Is it clear whether the Murdoch empire is actually paying for
his defence?

ROY GREENSLADE: There is a supposition that the organisation is paying, but they won't say yes and
they won't say no. And I've been carrying questions about that on my blog and I'll be carrying yet
another one tomorrow. We find it very baffling that they haven't denied it, but they also haven't
admitted it, and we're going to put his lawyers under pressure to explain exactly who is paying
what will amount to enormous costs. If they are paying, I ought to say it's extraordinary. This man
has been convicted of intercepting voicemail messages, he has served months in jail, and the idea
that in such circumstances one of the world's most powerful media organisations, which is after all
about supposedly holding power to account, if it was paying, it would be, I think, a desperate
situation and something to deplore.

TONY JONES: Is it clear or is it becoming clear yet who in the newspaper gave him his riding
instructions and whether or not he was acting on direct instructions when he began to break the law
in this hacking operation?

ROY GREENSLADE: Again, we don't clearly know. What we do know is that clearly two journalists did
give him instructions, one of whom has since been dismissed; an assistant editor has been dismissed
by the paper. All we've got to go on is the notes and certain names against which there are also
names of News of the World staff. We know some of the names of those staff. We don't know yet
whether they were the ones who instructed him to do it. What we found very difficult to understand
right from the outset of this is: could one person only be using the services of a man who was
being paid so much money a year? That was unlikely, so it was clearly more than that. We now know
probably that there were three, maybe four, maybe five, people. It's extraordinary as well that so
many senior executives of the News of the World have since left the organisation. About four, most
senior staff, have gone since this erupted. Now it may be that they were getting on in life and
that their natural time at the paper had come and gone, but it's still, I think, mysterious.

One of the things you have to take on board here is that when a cover up takes place and when
there's a long period of denying the truth - we now know it's the truth because they've admitted it
- it may be that many of these conspiracy theories, in fairness to Rupert Murdoch's organisation,
they may be wrong. But there is a big suspicion of a conspiracy here between the police and between
the newspaper and a cover up by the organisation, and that's what I think we need to get at.

TONY JONES: And the - I suppose the real question will be then how far up the chain of command it

ROY GREENSLADE: Well that's the fascinating aspect. I would doubt very, very much that it reaches
up to Rupert Murdoch. I want to say that straight away. I'd find that extraordinary. But it may be
very many senior lieutenants and much in the frame at the moment is the chief executive of his
British newspaper organisation, News International, a woman called Rebekah Brooks, because she was
editor of the News of the World at the time when we think some of this hacking took place. So what
she knew and when she knew it become pertinent questions. And although I don't support the general
call for an inquiry by Ed Miliband, the Labour leader, I do think we do need a definite inquiry
specifically into that newspaper and what happened over the past 10 years.

TONY JONES: It certainly raises serious questions about the culture in the organisation that also
could be very damaging to Murdoch's increasing attempts to expand his operations in the United

ROY GREENSLADE: I'm hesitant to make that link, actually. I think they are largely separate. Some
people would wish to make that and claim that he shouldn't be able to buy up the whole of his
satellite broadcasting company because of this. I think that's probably - probably I think a side
issue. I think the important thing to know is exactly what that culture was like. We do - we know
that the News of the World, Britain's bestselling newspaper until the last couple of years when it
was overtaken by The Sun - they're both going down, so they passed on the way as it were - but it
is Britain's bestselling Sunday newspaper. There is a huge pressure on the journalists in that
newspaper to get exclusives week after week after week. And I think it's that pressure from above
which puts people in a position of preparing to do things which are dodgy. I've never known
journalists to be involved in wholesale illegality before. And one thing you need to take on board
here I think is that although we now know it is definitely legal to intercept messages, that many
of those journalists at the time would not have regarded it as being that unusual and probably
thought it was a bit of a prank, to be honest.

TONY JONES: OK. A final question before you go, because you were a tabloid editor yourself, so I've
got to ask you this: you don't support, you've just said, Ed Miliband's call for a general inquiry
into the British press. I'm wondering why, because when you look at the entire tabloid world in
Britain, it's not just phone hacking and actual illegalities, it's lies and exaggerations and beat
ups and serial invasions of privacy and outrageous breaches of civility and the whole code of
journalism. So I'm just wondering why it wouldn't be a good idea to investigate all of that.

ROY GREENSLADE: Gosh, well, I mean, that's several charges too great, I think. I mean, the truth is
that this particular matter at the News of the World has besmirched British journalism, but I think
you're going too far in saying that there are wholesale invasions of privacy and so on. I think
that period is long past. I do think that other newspapers and other reporters on those newspapers
probably got up to the same thing, but News International is caught by that 11th commandant about:
do not get caught. And it's because we've got the evidence from this man Mulcaire that we know
about it. I don't think you'll be able to prove any other newspaper culpable and I think that's why
the Miliband call is far too wide. What we need to concentrate on is the facts that we already have
before us: an admission by an organisation of genuine regret that phone hacking took place. We have
the evidence that - already being gathered by lawyers acting on behalf of more than 20 people who
have sued the newspaper and it's that that we should pursue.

TONY JONES: Roy Greenslade, we'll have to leave you there. Thank you very much for taking the time
to come and talk to us.