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Gillard's leadership in doubt

Questions are being raised about Julia Gillard's leadership while she is under pressure to avoid
returning to the Howard government's Pacific Solution.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The Government's still reeling from Wednesday's High Court decision, and
questions have been raised about Julia Gillard's leadership following her criticism of the Chief
Justice.

Pressure is also coming from within the Labor Party for the Prime Minister to resist filling the
sudden policy vacuum on the asylum seeker issue with a return to the Howard government's pacific
solution.

Here's our political correspondent Tom Iggulden in Canberra.

TOM IGGULDEN, REPORTER: So many questions, but just one answer.

DAVID SPEERS, POLITICAL EDITOR, SKY NEWS: Has anyone approached you about stepping down?

JULIA GILLARD, PRIME MINISTER: No

REPORTER: Can you envisage Kevin Rudd returning?

NICOLA ROXON, HEALTH MINISTER: No I can't.

DAVID KOCH, PRESENTER, SUNRISE: Are you plotting to get rid of Julia?

TONY BURKE, MINISTER FOR SUSTAINABILITY, EVIRONOMENT, WATER, POPULATION AND COMMUNITIES: No! No,
no.

TOM IGGULDEN: The Opposition's accusing the Prime Minister of crossing the separation between the
Government and judiciary.

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: It's deeply un-prime ministerial for the leader of this country to
be engaging in the kind of verbal abuse of the High Court that we've seen over the last 24 hours.

TOM IGGULDEN: That suggestion's dominating the political discussion.

NICOLA ROXON: Ok, I'm still looking for a health question somewhere.

TOM IGGULDEN: The Health Minister's defending the Prime Minister.

NICOLA ROXON: I was an associate at the High Court. I have a strong regard for the role that the
High Court plays in our system. But that doesn't mean that we're not allowed to have a discussion
about the consequences of a decision.

ALEXANDER WARD, LAW COUNCIL: We quite accept that. But it was inappropriate, in the view of the Law
Council, that the Prime Minister single out the Chief Justice with her criticisms.

TOM IGGULDEN: Chris Bowen devised the failed policy, but the Prime Minister announced it.

JULIA GILLARD: And I'm pleased that I'm able today to join with the Prime Minister of Malaysia.

TOM IGGULDEN: Her backers are scrambling to limit damage-by-association.

BILL SHORTEN, FINANCIAL SERVICES AND SUPERANNUATION MINISTER: Julia Gillard's a very strong leader
for the times.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, INFRASTRUCTURE AND TRANSPORT MINISTER: She is a tough person who is right for the
times.

JULIA GILLARD: And I am doing this job because I am the best person to do it.

TOM IGGULDEN: Some in Labor are reconsidering their support for the Prime Minister, according to
media reports.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: 'Government sources' which is usually code for someone who knows someone who was
a staffer who knew someone and met someone who's cousin worked for somebody, somewhere, who worked
for an MP somewhere in Australia.

TOM IGGULDEN: But with no Plan A to deal with asylum seekers, there is a battle forming in Labor
about a Plan B.

The Prime Minister's not ruling out the main elements of the Howard government's pacific solution,
which she once criticised.

DAVID SPEERS: Do you stand by that criticism of the pacific solution that you made on many
occasions?

JULIA GILLARD: Look, I'm well aware of what I said in the past David. But what I will do in this
area is not deal with a set of hypotheticals or statements now.

DOUG CAMERON, LABOR MP: We should not go there. It is not a Labor policy, it doesn't equate to
Labor values.

TOM IGGULDEN: Left faction convenor, Doug Cameron's, drawing the Prime Minister's attention to the
Labor Party platform which says:

(Reads ALP Platform statement)

"Protection claims made in Australia will be assessed by Australians on Australian territory."

DOUG CAMERON: There is a clear platform of the Party and the Party platform should be instituted.

JULIA GILLARD: Party members, like Doug Cameron, who are on the backbench, can put their views
forward. I will deal with this as Prime Minister with the Minister for Immigration.

TOM IGGULDEN: The Party's stuck with the Prime Minister through poor polls and the politically
toxic policies like the carbon tax. Now MPs are looking to the Prime Minister to regain her
composure and come up with a plan for asylum seeker that unites a Party deeply divided on the
issue.

Tom Iggulden, Lateline.

George Brandis joins Lateline

Shadow Attorney General-George Brandis joins Lateline.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Well joining us now from Brisbane to discuss the political developments of
the last two days is Shadow Attorney-General, George Brandis.

Senator Brandis, welcome to the program.

GEORGE BRANDIS, SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Hello Ali.

ALI MOORE: On what grounds do you make the claim, as you have, that this week's High Court
judgement, quote, "does not affect the legality of the use of Nauru as an off-shore processing
centre"?

GEORGE BRANDIS: It's very straightforward Ali.

The basis on which off-shore processing is allowed under the Migration Act is a section introduced
by the Howard government in 2001, Section 198a. That section was not struck down by the High Court
on Wednesday, indeed its validity wasn't even challenged by the plaintiffs.

The case turned on the question of whether or not the minister was at liberty to satisfy himself of
the matters he needed to be satisfied of, under that section, by reference to the domestic law of
Malaysia. And the court decided, 6:1, that because Malaysian law, domestic law, lacked the
protections that Section 198a required the minister to be satisfied of the existence of, his
declaration was affected by what lawyers call jurisdictional error.

ALI MOORE: But given the advice of many constitutional lawyers against that background and given
the fact that Nauru has never actually been challenged in the courts, how can you be so confident
that it wouldn't be should it be re-opened?

GEORGE BRANDIS: Well it all depends what proposition you're asking me to dispute.

But anyone who says that the result of the decision of the High Court on Wednesday was that
off-shore processing, in all circumstances, is no longer available to the Australian government is
misrepresenting the effect of the plain language of the judgement of the majority.

ALI MOORE: But it doesn't necessarily mean the opposite either, does it? I mean this judgement
doesn't mean that off-shore processing in places like Nauru are going to be upheld under the
legislation; that it would, in fact, pass muster under the Migration Act?

GEORGE BRANDIS: Well what it means Ali is that for there to be off-shore processing the minister
would have to be satisfied of the matters set out in Section 198a of the Migration Act. It was
because the minister couldn't have been validly satisfied of them in relation to Malaysia that his
declaration was struck down.

Now, that depends in turn on whether the domestic law of the third country contains a sufficient
measure of protection so that the minister could be satisfied of those matters. And this has never
been problematic with Nauru, particularly I might say, and the High Court emphasised this, the
Australian government itself superintends the processing centre on Nauru.

And as recently as yesterday the Nauruan justice minister announced that his government was
examining the High Court decision. Nauru, as you know, is keen for this processing centre to be
re-opened, and he said that if there were any changes to the domestic law of Nauru that were needed
to be made in order to bring its law into conformity with what the High Court required, and Section
198a of the Australian Migration Act required, then his government would make those changes.

ALI MOORE: But given that, I guess, if the Government was to switch to Nauru, would support a sort
of pilot project, if I could put it that way, so it could be legally tested before hundreds of
millions of dollars were spent getting the facility up and running completely?

GEORGE BRANDIS: Well I don't think we need to engage in pilot projects. The fact is that it hasn't
been suggested, it's not been suggested in any piece of litigation, that the Nauru solution was not
valid. In fact, 198a of the Migration Act was introduced by the Howard government for the express
purpose of facilitating the Pacific solution.

ALI MOORE: But I go back to the point, it has never been tested. Would the Coalition support an
amendment to the Migration Act if it proved to be the case that under Section 198a as it's now
being interpreted, no country would meet the criteria?

GEORGE BRANDIS: Well that's just a false premise Ali. It hasn't been interpreted to say that no
country would meet the criteria. And anybody who makes that claim is misrepresenting the affect of
what the High Court decided.

In my view there is no reason to believe that Nauru is incapable of satisfying the criteria in the
Act. And if it is, then the reasons for judgement that the High Court delivered on Wednesday simply
don't apply to that country.

ALI MOORE: You criticised the Prime Minister for her comments regarding the High Court; how is it
any different to the comments, and I'm just choosing an example here, but Philip Ruddock, the
former attorney-general in 1998, when he said that again the courts have reinterpreted and
rewritten Australian law, ignoring the sovereignty of parliament and the will of the Australian
people?

GEORGE BRANDIS: Well I'm not familiar with that particular remark of Mr Ruddock's.

But let me just make the point that it is a fundamental principle of our constitution that the
political arms of government accept the finality of adjudication by the High Court. And the basis
of my criticism of the Prime Minister was that, although, of course, every citizen is entitled to
have a discussion about the consequences of a High Court decision, she went further.

She went a critical stage further. She suggested the High Court got it wrong and there was
something wrong with or dubious with the decision. In particular with her extraordinary ad hominem
attack on the Chief Justice.

Now that is a fundamental departure from everyone's understanding of the separation of powers and,
in particular, once the High Court makes a, its decision, then the government of the day, whether
it likes it or not, must accept it.

ALI MOORE: That said, the Prime Minister argues she was simply stating the facts, as she stated in
those comments the High Court Chief Justice, Robert French, had made a different decision at an
earlier point in his career. That is a fact.

GEORGE BRANDIS: Well, well as a matter of fact, it's not a fact. And this is another prop ...
assertion by the Prime Minister that is wrong.

I've looked at the previous decisions that, and in particular there was one decision, a case called
P-1 in 2003, in which Justice French, then a judge of the Federal Court of Australia, was asked to
look at Section 198a. And the facts of that case, and the basis upon which that case turned were
entirely different from the issue that was presented to him in last Wednesday's decision.

So the Prime Minister's assertion that the Chief Justice was being inconsistent was itself wrong.
The previous occasion on which Justice French considers Section 198a didn't raise the issue of
jurisdictional error. And specifically said in his reasons for judgement, that I read only this
afternoon, that different considerations in that case would apply if jurisdictional error were an
issue.

The decision on Wednesday turned on the question of jurisdictional error.

So the Prime Minister's assertion of inconsistency was itself wrong.

ALI MOORE: Do you think Tony Abbott will be facing Julia Gillard at the next election?

GEORGE BRANDIS: Look I know that Tony Abbott will be facing somebody. Who it will be is really the
Labor Party's problem Ali.

ALI MOORE: You wouldn't like to place there?

GEORGE BRANDIS: No look I ... Look, I really think that this is a matter that the Labor Party needs
to work out for themselves.

The Government at the moment is obviously not performing as people would expect an Australian
government should. The Prime Minister, including by the artless remarks she made about the Chief
Justice, is not behaving as a prime minister should. And I think, frankly, we have a crisis of
confidence in this Government now, which ultimately can only be resolved, as Tony Abbott has been
saying all along, by an election.

ALI MOORE: Senator George Brandis, many thanks for talking to Lateline tonight.

GEORGE BRANDIS: Thank you Ali.

ALI MOORE: And I should say that we did approach a number of Government ministers to come on the
program tonight but they were unavailable.

Taser footage released

A magistrate has released dramatic footage of a man being tasered by police in far west New South
Wales while on his knees with his hands behind his head.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: A magistrate has released dramatic footage of a man being tasered by police
in the far west of New South Wales.

Phillip Charles Bugmy is accused of wielding a knife and resisting and intimidating police.

The officer involved told the Wilcannia Court that he feared for himself and two colleagues and
that his use of the Taser was justified.

And a warning, some viewers may find the images in this report disturbing.

Here's Karl Hoerr.

(Footage of Phillip Charles Bugmy incident plays throughout with audio of police)

KARL HOERR, REPORTER: The prosecution told the court that three police officers were confronted by
an armed Phillip Bugmy.

(Excerpt from footage of Phillip Charles Bugmy incident)

SENIOR CONSTABLE PAUL CHARMAN, NSW POLICE: Put the knife down. Get on the ground.

KARL HOERR: Phillip Bugmy's lawyers say he gives up the weapon and complies with the order.

PAUL CHARMAN: Get on the ground. I'm asking you to get on the ground or you will be tasered. Get on
the ground.

(Excerpt ends)

KARL HOERR: Phillip Bugmy remains kneeled but takes his shirt off in what police call an act of
aggressive bravado.

Police reportedly warn Bugmy he'll be Tasered if he doesn't get on the ground.

Then the officer fires.

(Excerpt from footage of Phillip Charles Bugmy incident)

PAUL CHARMAN: Taser, Taser, Taser.

PHILLIP CHARLES BUGMY: (Screams).

PAUL CHARMAN: Taser, Taser, Taser.

PHILLIP CHARLES BUGMY: (Screams).

PAUL CHARMAN: If you don't comply you'll be Tasered again.

PHILLIP CHARLES BUGMY: (Screams).

(Excerpt ends)

KARL HOERR: Lawyers for Phillip Bugmy argue two of his three charges, resisting and intimidating
police, should be dropped.

But the officer who fired the Taser, Senior Constable Paul Charman, told the court Bugmy had been
violent towards police before.

He recalled a previous incident when he drew a Taser on Bugmy but he didn't fire.

The defence questioned Senior Constable Charman over his threat to Taser again after firing.

The officer said his actions were justified.

The case against Phillip Bugmy returns to court in December.

Karl Hoerr, Lateline.

Turkey expels Israeli ambassador

returns to court in December. Karl Hoerr, Lateline.

Turkey has expelled the Israeli ambassador over a UN report condemning Israel's deadly raid last
year on a Gaza aid flotilla. Nine Turkish activists died in May of Gaza. A long awaited UN
investigations leaked to the New York Times has found the naval blockade was legal but Israel used
excess tiff and unreasonable force in raiding the flotilla. the flotilla. The report says the
activists were the activists were themselves violent and organised. Turkey has announced its
reducingist diplomatic presence in Israeland sus pending military

Libyan leaders promise timeline for elections

Libya's interim leaders have promised a conference of 63 nations there will be a new constitution
and free elections within 18 months.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Further evidence has been uncovered of human rights abuses committed by the
Gaddafi regime.

The latest clues have come from a prison in Tripoli with a particularly brutal reputation.

The BBC's Jeremy Bowen reports.

JEREMY BOWEN, REPORTER: Abu Salim gaol. The name itself was so frightening that Libyans avoided
saying it or being overheard talking about what might be happening inside these walls.

Torture was routine. Sometimes prisoners disappeared. And now you can just walk in.

(Footage of liberation of Abu Salim gaol)

After the guards disappeared Libyans broke open the cells to let the prisoners out.

(Footage of liberation of Abu Salim)

And even now Abu Salim casts a dark spell.

This ex-prisoner wanted to be anonymous because he's from a place in Libya where fighting
continues.

EX PRISONER (Translated): I felt I was cutting my last link with life when I was taken to Abu
Salim. The warders told us or existence meant nothing to them. I thought I could be killed at any
time.

JEREMY BOWEN: Someone's been trying to destroy the evidence of what happened here. The ashes in
this room full of burnt files are still hot.

So these Libyan lawyers are removing the rest of Abu Salim's archives while they still can. They
might be produced in court if Colonel Gaddafi and his associates ever face trial.

SALEH MARGHANI, LAWYER: Thousands of families, thousands and thousands actually of families have
lost loved ones in this place, and of course in many other places. And it is important that their
families know all the facts about what happened to them.

JEREMY BOWEN: 42 years of frightened faces are stored in fruit boxes. Pictures of some prisoner's
children too, perhaps taken from censored letters from their families.

The lawyers think they've found information about the 1,200 prisoners who were killed here in a
massacre in 1996.

The fear of being sent to Abu Salim was used by the Libyan regime to control people, to deter them
from making trouble.

But what happened here, at the heart of Colonel Gaddafi's security state, might turn out to be, at
the very least, highly embarrassing for western governments, because as part of extensive security
cooperation in recent years in the war on terror, they sent suspected Jihadists to this prison.

Human rights groups point out that Britain and the United States had close security and
intelligence ties with Libya, right until the uprising started on the 17th of February this year.

FRED ABRAHAMS, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: There were two driving concerns between the west and Libya over
the past five years. One was cooperation in the War on Terror. And the other was oil and business
concerns, a vast market. And those two issues overrode the human rights concerns.

JEREMY BOWEN: Some of Abu Salim's secrets are being extracted from this pain-ridden place.

A new Libya won't be possible until they're all uncovered.

Libyan leaders promise timeline for elections

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Further evidence has been uncovered of human rights abuses committed by the
Gaddafi regime.

The latest clues have come from a prison in Tripoli with a particularly brutal reputation.

The BBC's Jeremy Bowen reports.

JEREMY BOWEN, REPORTER: Abu Salim gaol. The name itself was so frightening that Libyans avoided
saying it or being overheard talking about what might be happening inside these walls.

Torture was routine. Sometimes prisoners disappeared. And now you can just walk in.

(Footage of liberation of Abu Salim gaol)

After the guards disappeared Libyans broke open the cells to let the prisoners out.

(Footage of liberation of Abu Salim)

And even now Abu Salim casts a dark spell.

This ex-prisoner wanted to be anonymous because he's from a place in Libya where fighting
continues.

EX PRISONER (Translated): I felt I was cutting my last link with life when I was taken to Abu
Salim. The warders told us or existence meant nothing to them. I thought I could be killed at any
time.

JEREMY BOWEN: Someone's been trying to destroy the evidence of what happened here. The ashes in
this room full of burnt files are still hot.

So these Libyan lawyers are removing the rest of Abu Salim's archives while they still can. They
might be produced in court if Colonel Gaddafi and his associates ever face trial.

SALEH MARGHANI, LAWYER: Thousands of families, thousands and thousands actually of families have
lost loved ones in this place, and of course in many other places. And it is important that their
families know all the facts about what happened to them.

JEREMY BOWEN: 42 years of frightened faces are stored in fruit boxes. Pictures of some prisoner's
children too, perhaps taken from censored letters from their families.

The lawyers think they've found information about the 1,200 prisoners who were killed here in a
massacre in 1996.

The fear of being sent to Abu Salim was used by the Libyan regime to control people, to deter them
from making trouble.

But what happened here, at the heart of Colonel Gaddafi's security state, might turn out to be, at
the very least, highly embarrassing for western governments, because as part of extensive security
cooperation in recent years in the war on terror, they sent suspected Jihadists to this prison.

Human rights groups point out that Britain and the United States had close security and
intelligence ties with Libya, right until the uprising started on the 17th of February this year.

FRED ABRAHAMS, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: There were two driving concerns between the west and Libya over
the past five years. One was cooperation in the War on Terror. And the other was oil and business
concerns, a vast market. And those two issues overrode the human rights concerns.

JEREMY BOWEN: Some of Abu Salim's secrets are being extracted from this pain-ridden place.

A new Libya won't be possible until they're all uncovered.

Women in the Arab Spring

Journalist and commentator Mona Eltahawy discusses what the public uprisings across Arabia mean for
women.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Mona Eltahawy is a columnist and commentator on Arab and Muslim issues.

Born in Egypt, she's reported from across the Middle East as a journalist for the Reuters
newsagency.

With some 60,000 followers on Twitter, Mona Eltahawy is a lecturer and researcher on the growing
importance of social media in the Arab world.

Currently based in New York, she's in Melbourne for the Writer's Festival and she joined me a short
time ago.

Mona Eltahawy, welcome to Lateline.

MONA ELTAHAWY, JOURNALIST AND COMMENTATOR: Thanks for having me.

ALI MOORE: How hopeful are you about the future of Libya after so many decades of Gaddafi rule?

MONA ELTAHAWY: I'm incredibly optimistic for the Libyans. I mean just the mere idea of Gaddafi not
being there on September the 1st to commemorate his so-called 1969 revolution is just astounding. I
don't think anyone could have imagined that the world's longest ruling dictator would be hiding out
right now, on the run from the real revolution.

ALI MOORE: What do you think will happen to him? Of course he's come out just today apparently in
audio tapes and said he'll fight to the end?

MONA ELTAHAWY: Well he seems to want that fight to the end. I mean all the Libyans that I know and
all the Libyans that I follow through various social media, want justice to be served in the way
that in Egypt we put Mubarak on trial not for revenge but for justice.

But the way that he has been provoking and slaughtering people left right and centre in Libya, he
seems to really want that showdown to the end.

ALI MOORE: There are still questions being asked about exactly who makes up the National
Transitional Council and exactly who it is that the west has backed. What sort of government do you
think is likely to emerge?

MONA ELTAHAWY: Well I think it should definitely be a government that represents all Libyans. I
mean I speak as an Egyptian who knows that there will be people in a future Egyptian government
that are not people that every Egyptian would like, but I think that the whole point of these
revolutions and uprisings is that everybody in the country feels represented.

And I think what gave me hope especially in Libya is when the revolution began in the eastern
province in Benghazi. You had a sense of people taking care of their own well being. You had that
presence outside of the courtroom where people were running schools for children, running things
like cleaning up after their various demonstrations. And I like to think this will form the core of
whatever future government for Libya will come into being, in that everyone feels represented and
everyone's voice is heard.

I hope that optimism is well placed.

ALI MOORE: Do you think it will be a secular government?

MONA ELTAHAWY: I don't know what kind of government it will be because I think that when Libyans do
eventually go to the polls, as I said, I want everyone's voice to be represented.

And again, when I think of the Egypt, I know the Muslim Brotherhood who is not secular, I mean this
is an opposition movement that is clearly not secular, I know that they will have a role to play in
the Egyptian government, as they should, because they do represent Egyptians. I identify as secular
but I understand there are Egyptians who don't.

So I think as long as Libyans feel that they have a say in the kind of government that they have,
and that government ensures the free and fair representation of all voices in the country, I think
this is the kind of future that Libyans would want to have.

ALI MOORE: You referred before to your, I guess, immersion in social media. What is the social
media conversation like at the moment between Libyans?

MONA ELTAHAWY: Well you're hearing between Libyans, especially those inside and outside of Libya,
is, you know, after weeks of not being able to communicate because the internet was cut off, you
know, on and off for several months actually. You're hearing a great sense of excitement, a great
sense of bewilderment that finally Gaddafi is on the run.

But also, there's this great, you know, "it's time now to take our country into our own hands".
Gaddafi has left Libya a very rich country, rich in its oil and resources, essentially without
anything. There are very few institutions and very little civil society to speak of.

So the Libyans that I do follow, through various social media, are expressing this very great
concern of, there's a lot of work to be done, there's a long road ahead, but they remain optimistic
that they will be able to do all the work that needs to be done.

ALI MOORE: And is there also a sense, though, of unity. Because of course I note that the western
supporters of the Libyan rebels have been meeting in Paris and they've certainly offered practical
support; but they've also urged a path of reconciliation and forgiveness. We've got the US
Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, urging the rebels beware of extremism. How United
post-rebellion are the Libyans?

MONA ELTAHAWY: Well you hear from the Libyans they recognise, for example, that many of the leaders
of the Transitional National Council are people who defected from the Gaddafi regime.

But you also hear this idea that there has to be forgiveness, there has to be reconciliation, and
there has to be this conscious decision to move on and not to harp on who's side were you on in the
past.

Because in order for Libyans to rebuild their country, essentially build their country, because as
I said, Gaddafi left them with very little. In order for that building of Libya to happen, Libyans
do need to come together.

But I think there is, across the entire region, jut not just in Libya, this amazing sense of
optimism in that "look how much we have achieved." In the case of Libya, they have managed to end a
42 year regime and I think they're taking that excitement and saying things like "our imagination
is free to go wherever we want it to be."

So I think the last thing people want is this idea of revenge and let's get out there and make them
pay for what they did. They want to look forward, they want to move ahead and they want to build
the country that they know they deserve.

ALI MOORE: Where are the women in Libya?

Because certainly, in your country, in Egypt, there were plenty of women in Tahrir Square, very,
very obvious, they were part of the protest movement and a very obvious part of the protest
movement. but not in Libya, at least according to our television screens.

MONA ELTAHAWY: The women in Libya were there very, very visibly at the beginning. Because when you
think about how this revolution started, it really was basically women who were related to men
killed in this prison massacre in 1996, the Abu Salim prison massacre. And it was the mother of an
attorney who represented many of those victims' families who went out and demonstrated outside of
the Benghazi courtroom, back in February because the Gaddafi regime had arrested her son.

So in a way you can say that a woman inspired this very early start to the revolution because her
son was detained. You saw women very visibly in Benghazi and in the eastern provinces.

I think where we began to see less women was when the revolution took a more militaristic turn.
When it was more about young men standing up to the Gaddafi regime, using whatever weapons they
could find. In that case women were very much present in the backgrounds.

You could hear of women involved in the various NGOs (Non-Government Organisations) who were
supporting Libyans fighting for freedom inside and outside of Libya. There was a very visible ...

ALI MOORE: But what about in terms of leadership roles now. How many women, for example, are there
on the National Transitional Council?

MONA ELTAHAWY: There's no one woman I know of on the Transitional National Council and there
definitely needs to be more.

But I know that there was one woman who was a very visible spokesperson for them. She was one of
two sisters who very active in Benghazi and in the eastern province. So I think that there is a
recognition that there are many qualified women out there and they need to be more involved in the
Transitional National Council.

But from the Libyans that I follow, either in the real world or in the virtual world online, I know
that Libyan women will not be silenced and that they recognise they must have a role to play in the
future of their country.

ALI MOORE: How long do you think it will be until the countries that have been part of this Arab
Spring actually have a female prime minister or a female president. I know in Egypt a woman is
running for the president what chance does she have?

MONA ELTAHAWY: Right, we have a very popular television announcer, called Bothaina Kamel, who is
running for president. Quite honestly, she doesn't stand a very big chance of becoming president.
But I think it is much more important that she is running for president for the symbolism of it.

To have a woman seriously contesting the presidency in post-Mubarak Egypt I think sends out a
wonderful message to young men and young women that this a possibility now. And she is campaigning
across the country, she is meeting with people in the north, in south, in very conservative parts
of Egypt. And I think what she's doing is something that all candidates in Egypt need to do, and
that is being out there and saying "I demand a say in the future of my country."

When it comes to other countries across the region, when you look at Tunisia for example, they have
this wonderful system set up in their constituent assembly and for their future elections, where
the list, the electoral list are basically man-woman, man-woman, and in that way they ensure almost
50-50 representation for women.

So every country's obviously going to handle this in a different way. But I think as long as women
are visible and as long as women demand to be visible, I think this will guarantee that the
foundations of our countries in these post dictatorships will be ones that recognise gender
equality.

ALI MOORE: You've written in terms of Egypt that you've replaced Mubarak with a whole council of
Mubaraks. Are you comfortable or do you worry about the progress since the rebellion?

MONA ELTAHAWY: Well I think the revolution in Egypt continues. No Egyptian I know says the
revolution is finished. Because to speak about the revolution in the past tense would essentially
say that this military junta, this supreme council of Mubaraks, as I call them, has won. And one of
the biggest demands of the revolution was that Egypt becomes a civilian-controlled country. We've
been under military rule since 1952.

I remain optimistic because I think pessimism again would be an ally to these military rulers of
Egypt. I remain optimistic because I know all of the progress we've made since Mubarak was forced
to step down was progress that followed very strong pressure from the street. And next week in
Egypt, September the 9th, Egyptians are going back to the street to remind the armed forces, to
remind this military junta, that this is a people's revolution and the people's revolution
continues.

ALI MOORE: If we look at other countries in the region, you talked about Tunisia, of course Egypt
and Libya, what about Syria, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, do you think there will come a day when they
will really have their Arab Spring?

MONA ELTAHAWY: I'm convinced the Bashar al-Assad's regime is finished. I think it's a matter of
weeks if not days. Because, you know, there was a stage during the various revolutions and
uprisings where people said, "well seeing Mubarak on trial, we've put Mubarak on trial in Egypt, is
just basically sending a message to these dictators to really crackdown hard." And that's what
Assad has basically been doing.

But he has not broken the will of the people. They continue to go out and despite these massive,
the massive number of deaths that they've seen in Syria, they continue to turn up and say we will
not be bowed. And I think that is a message that continues to be inspired others in the region.

Bahrain, In Bahrain, you know, they're re-invigorating their uprising against the regime there. I
mean even in Saudi Arabia, a country you don't think of as one that will be joining these
revolutions or uprisings, the women there continue to take to their cars and this campaign called
Women to Drive, continues to be held in various cities.

So I think what you're seeing, especially now that Gaddafi is on the run, is and inspiration and
basically a boost to these various revolutions and uprisings and I'm confident that these will
continue.

ALI MOORE: Well it's certainly interesting times.

Mona Eltahawy many thanks for talking to Lateline tonight.

MONA ELTAHAWY: Thanks for having me.

The Long view on the economy

Economics correspondent Stephen Long joins Lateline to discuss the economic issues of the week.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Well now for our Friday night chat about all things economic we're joined by
economics correspondent, Stephen Long.

And Stephen I worry when you're here that there's bad news. And indeed I think it's come to pass,
the latest US job numbers.

STEPHEN LONG, ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT: Your worries are well founded Ali.

Zero jobs growth in the month of August in the United States on the official measure. Zero. And my
understanding is that you have to go back to 1945 to find a worse monthly result.

In addition the Bureau of Labour Statistics has sharply revised down jobs growth in the previous
two months.

Naturally, you saw share markets dive, people jumping into bonds as a safe haven. It's a really bad
result for the US economy, suggest that if it isn't indeed in recession already, it may be headed
back into recession. Very, very difficult circumstances for the Obama Administration and for the
world.

ALI MOORE: Was anyone tipping zero growth?

STEPHEN LONG: I think there were some uber-pessimists who thought that it might be negative. But
the median forecasts, which were seen in the markets as being very pessimistic, was that there
would be 68,000 additional jobs added in the month.

So it's a very bad result.

ALI MOORE: And this of course comes out at the same time as we've got more bad news from Europe, in
particular from Greece?

STEPHEN LONG: Tonight, the Greek budget office has come out and said that Greece will miss its
targets for reducing its budget deficit and trying to rein in its debt. They say it is going to be
significantly worse. Which raises questions whether the Greek bailout can go ahead because it's
transparently not meeting the conditions.

In addition, in Italy, they've done what many see as a fudge in terms of their austerity measures
and they're not putting in tax measures on the rich that were promised. And so it raises questions
there again about the sustainability of their position and their debt.

We have at the moment really a sovereign debt banking spiral where the debt just isn't being reined
in, the banks are clearly under-capitalised, they're exposed to any write downs on government debt
and that could create a new banking crisis. So they seem to be in a downward cycle and it is hard
to see how they pull out of it.

Things aren't good in Europe.

The funding costs for banks are going up sharply. The Italian and Spanish banks are only keeping
going because they're tapping the European Central Bank for money. In Greece there's been a flight
of deposits from banks. So ironically profits have gone up because they're not paying interest on
deposits, they're getting all the money from the Central Bank.

But clearly a very bad situation.

ALI MOORE: And of course there's also a legal challenge in Germany, isn't there, to Germany's role
in any rescue and Germany is really the purse of Europe?

STEPHEN LONG: On the 7th of December a key court decision will decide whether Germany participating
in the bailout of Greece is constitutional. Now the court's been pragmatic in the past on these
matters. But if rules against it, then that really scuppers the bailout.

ALI MOORE: You'd have to have a bet that that's likely given this news that they're not going to
meet their targets. Good money after bad?

STEPHEN LONG: Who knows what the court will do. But clearly, it seems that the situation is at a
very, very dangerous inflection point in Europe.

The question now really, I think, in Europe is whether we see merely a recession or whether this
really tumbles into a banking crisis and a credit crunch and whether those play out in the near
term or perhaps next year. Things are that serious over there.

Of course China still rocking along and seven of our 10 top trading partners are in Asia, but if it
gets bad enough, it will hit Asia too.

ALI MOORE: Of course it will. Stephen Long, many thanks for joining us.

STEPHEN LONG: You're welcome.

Technology gives Texas a second oil boom

New technology has unlocked huge untapped reserves in Texas oil fields thought worthless just five
years ago, promising to boost America's domestic supplies.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Texas was once the centre of the oil world. But it fell on hard times as
production declined and big energy companies went overseas.

But now, new technology has unlocked huge untapped reserves in fields thought worthless just five
years ago.

North America correspondent Jane Cowan reports from southern Texas on the unexpected oil boom.

(Theme from Beverly Hillbillies plays)

JOHN KINGSTON, ENERGY ANALYST, PLATTS: This is the tip of the iceberg and you know it's a
revolution that's maybe five to six years old, and how much impact it's had on the market is just
mindboggling.

BEN SEBREE, TEXAS OIL AND GAS ASSOCIATION: It's literally one of the 10 largest oil discoveries in
the history of the United States, and that kind of took my breath away.

ROSE SMITH, LOCATOR: Pays great, it's a lot. (laughs) Don't need no man to take care of me.
(laughs)

JANE COWAN, REPORTER: Welcome to Carrizo Springs, Texas. Official population 5,500 and growing so
fast the signs can't keep up.

JIMMIE LOPEZ, CARRIZO SPRINGS CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: It has changed into an oil boom town. A big oil
boom town.

JANE COWAN: In this once sleepy corner of the Loan Star State, the cactus and mesquite trees are
giving way to $1 million highway, throbbing with trucks ferrying out the new oil that's suddenly
flowing here.

It's a pot of liquid gold that leads all the way to Bert Bells place.

BERT BELL, TEXAN: Down here about six to 8,000 foot.

JANE COWAN: Under our feet?

BERT BELL: Under our feet, so all they got to do is go get it.

JANE COWAN: This seventh generation Texan has found himself sitting on a bonanza called shale oil.

BERT BELL: And it's good sweet oil and I mean there's lots of it here. When they drill a hole
they're going to get something usually.

JANE COWAN: He's coy about just how much he's made leasing the oil companies access to his land.

BERT BELL: It's made it to where I can do something because I want to, not because I have to. I
want a new pick up, I can go buy, I don't have to buy one when the other one clunks out.

(Beverley Hillbillies opening footage and theme song plays)

BEVERLEY HILLBILLIES THEME SONG: Come and listen to my story about a man Jed ...

JANE COWAN: It's far from the first time oil's transformed the lives of ordinary Texans.

BEVERLEY HILLBILLIES THEME SONG: ... he was shootin' at some food, when up from the ground come a
bubblin' crude. Oil that is. Black Gold. Texas Tea.

(Footage ends)

JANE COWAN: But this is a thoroughly modern story.

By using a new technique called hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, it's possible to tap vast fields
of oil though inaccessible as recently as a few years ago.

BEN SEBREE: It's a lot (laughs). I guess that's equivalent to an average to large oil exporting
country.

JANE COWAN: As America grapples with unemployment above nine per cent, workers are abandoning lives
and homes in other parts of the country and flocking here to live in motels and RVs (Recreational
Vehicles).

ROSE SMITH: The company we work for we have, like, three to five years worth of work that's already
signed for. But there's 10 years of work down here, there's going to be pipelines everywhere.
There's already pipelines everywhere but we're putting more in.

JANE COWAN: It's rejuvenating an economically depressed part of Texas.

JIMMIE LOPEZ: Just open the door, put a cash register and you're doing business.

JANE COWAN: Business is so good there's hardly a bed to be found for several towns on all
directions, and new hotels are under construction.

In the wake of the Gulf of Mexico oil spill it's a welcome onshore field. And for the world's
largest consumer of oil, it's a surprising boost to domestic supplies that had been considered to
be in inexorable decline.

JOHN KINGSTON: It's like a new Venezuela. If the US has to import less oil as a result of its own
production, then that's oil that it pushes out into the market, and that affects the global oil
market, and it affects it right down to the Australia level.

JANE COWAN: But it's not a perfect equation. More than 90 per cent of Texas is gasping from extreme
or exceptional drought, and fracking is a thirsty enterprise.

Bill Martin's family has been coaxing onions, melons and cotton out of this land for almost 100
years, and he's never seen it so dry. The water level in his well has dropped more than 30 metres.

BILL MARTIN, TEXAS FARMER: If we had of been in no oil, no competition with the oil companies it
may still be that low, just from the drought. But it is a concern because they are pulling an awful
lot of fresh water out of our Carrizo sands that could be used for something else.

JANE COWAN: There are also worries about the risk of contamination after residents elsewhere blamed
fracking operations for the presence of gas in their water supplies.

DR ROBERT MACE, HYDROGEOLOGIST: We haven't seen those problems come up, but it's certainly
something to watch out for. Just because it hasn't happened in the past doesn't mean it's not going
to happen in the future.

JANE COWAN: Texas has seen oil booms come and go before. People here are more than happy to take
advantage of the jobs and the influx of oil dollars. But what matters most to them is being left
with something more than a ravaged landscape and empty RV parks when this is all over.

BILL MARTIN: You've got to balance out the two. The oil industry is bringing a lot of dollars into
our county, but you've got to offset that with the worry of what's going to happen if we do run out
of water because it's going to stop that industry and it's going to kill the community also.

JIMMIE LOPEZ: Hopefully we can increase the infrastructure to where we can build a viable
community.

What the oil executives say: you haven't seen nothing yet.

JANE COWAN: Bert Bell is just happy to make money while the oil flows.

BERT BELL: This is kind of like the old west in a way. The cattle drive's come in, well all the
cowboys come in, the money come in, everybody come roaring into town. It was a party town for a
week, 10 days, then cowboys all went home and the town went right back to what they were.

JANE COWAN: But, there's a lot of Texas Tea to be drilled before there's any prospect of that.

Jane Cowan, Lateline.