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(generated from captions) This Program is Captioned Live. Tonight - marching orders. Moammar Gaddafi has

lost legitimacy to lead and he

must leave. Good evening. Welcome to

'Lateline'. I'm Ali Moore.

It's been an ugly week in

Federal Parliament, with

blazing argument over the

Government's proposed carbon

insults tax and both sides issuing

insults and accusations. The

debate saw normal proceedings

in the House suspended no less

than four times in four days, with the coalition determined

to make its case. To discuss

the week in Canberra we'll be joined tonight Dreyfus and the coalition's

George Brandis. First, our

other headlines. It doesn't

add up - claims the figures for

school funding on the My School

website are wrong. Protecting

the vulnerable - a trial gives

whooping cough vaccine to

newborns. And the world's

oldest company still building Buddhist temples after 1,400

years. Libya's rebels have rejected a negotiated

Gaddafi, saying he must either settlement

resign or go into exile. Government forces have attacked

rebel positions in the east of

the country for the past two

days, but the opposition forces

have so far managed to retain

control of the key towns of

Brega and Ajbadiya. The international criminal court

has announced it will investigate potential crimes against humanity arising from

the two weeks of violence.

Middle East correspondent Ben

Knight reports from eastern

Libya. They came in hundreds, massing to farewell

five rebel fighters who were

killed on Wednesday in clashes with forces loyal to Colonel Gaddafi. This is what they were defending, Brega. There

isn't much to it, other than a

few dozen houses, a massive oil

plant and, at the moment, some

very big guns. This is where

Moammar Gaddafi's forces were

forced back on Wednesday. Yesterday planes made a counter assault,

with airstrikes both here and

back up the road at Ajbadiya.

There's no-one here but opposition fighters who are resting and refuelling. These

are soldiers who deserted and

have joined the rebellion.

Their former comrades are just

20km down the road behind the

enemy line. The next major

town is an hour away and that's

where they believe Colonel

Gaddafi's forces are now

regrouping for another assault.

The local commander calls for

more weapons to be sent down

the line. "Shoot them with the

big guns from back there", he says, "we'll take care of the

rest." No-one quite knows

which way this will go. It was

a surprise victory yesterday

where they managed to push the

Gaddafi troops out of town, but

they are expecting it's going

to be difficult to do it again.

Every day this is looking less

like a revolt and much more

like a civil war. The rebels have again repeated have

the moment that help appears

unlikely to arrive. For now,

they'll have to settle for

words of support. The violence

must stop. Moammar Gaddafi has

lost legitimacy to lead and he must leave. Those who

perpetrate violence against the

Libyan people will be held

accountable. And the aspirations of the Libyan people for freedom, democracy

and dignity must be met. But

international criminal court Colonel Gaddafi's been warned

has announced it will

investigate the Libyan leader

and his inner circle for any

possible crimes against

humanity, with

attention to a number of

incidents. We identified the

worse incident that we'll try

to show you on the map. The

first attack occurred on 15

February in Benghazi. Then you

have Al Baida, then 20 February. Meanwhile the zen zalan President

zalan President has claimed

colonel Gaddafi agreed to a plan to allow peacekeepers into

the country to quell the

violence. His son says the

foreign mediation is not

necessary. Libyans are now

waiting to see if their country

descends into full-blown civil

war. The man who helped design

Rudd's mining tax tonight John Howard's GST and Kevin

delivered his last public

address as a bureaucrat, but

it's not Treasury secretary Ken

Henry's style to leave quietly.

In his speech delivered at the University of Tasmania he wondered aloud where wondered

Australia's reform agenda was

at an end. Tom Iggulden

rors. Ken Henry has never been

backward coming forward right

from the get-go as Treasury

secretary. His first speech

was aimed at journalists If it

I ask you to ponder how much didn't, we'd have less

good it's doing to the reputation of your pro fegs. 10

years later he's still at it.

Even though it's my Even though it's my last pg

address, there's yet time to

get sacked. Not that that was

going to stop him from making

one of his famously frank assessments of the assessments of the #34ri9 call

not the process. I do sense there's

not the same sense of urgency

today amongst politicians as

there was in the 1980s. There

is, I think, a sense of complacency in the broader

community that hasn't put the political system stress as it felt itself under political system under as much

in the 1980s. And he says the

global financial crisis may

have robbed Australia of the

opportunity to do the sort reforms he helped design in the opportunity to do the sort of

1980s. One of the ideas that

came out of the 2020 summit, it was the Australian business

community that came up with the

maybe this is an historic

opportunity to purchase - I use

that term quite deliberately,

to purchase - major tax reform six months six months later it had all

gone. That opportunity to

deliver large-scale tax reform

with a significant hit on the

budget, it had all disappeared.

It's not at all clear, I have

to say, when that fiscal

opportunity may present

itself. And he's calling for

other reforms too if the growing population to feed the country is to

demand for more workers in the

country's booming mining sector. A sustainable

population for Australia, well,

I don't know, maybe 15 million,

something like that - that's

1-5, not 5-0. It's evident in the

the environmental degradation

one sees, the loss of biodiversity, species'

extinction, and so on. It's

very clear that the population

growth that we've experienced

to date to give

of 21 million, 22 million, has

not been sustainable population

growth in that sense. Ken hrnry was never going to be

by a narrow interest in the

national accounts, as arguably Canberra's most powerful bureaucrat over the last decade, he was regularly drawn

into the political debate. He

called John Howard's water

strategy bad in a speech to his

department and was accused of

providing overly rosy economic

forecasts to Wayne Swan. forecasts were produced by the Treasury with no political manipulation. I don't think

it's helpful that comments like

that are made which have the

potential of undermining the

integrity of the Australian

Public Service. But the

accusations that he'd lost his

impartiality grew louder from

the conservative side of

politics. These discrepancies

are starting to really bring

into question the independence of whether Dr Henry is a political player. Those

tensions reached a peak in a

newspaper article about advice

he'd supposedly given the Government about guaranteeing

bank deposits. The story on

the front page of yesterday's

Australian newspaper was wrong,

that's WRONG. But his denials

didn't satisfy his detractors.

That to me doesn't sound to

have the ring of truth about

it. Sorry, Senator, what are

you suggesting? He was never

afraid to stand up to power,

including the mining furious at the mining tax he

designed for Kevin Rudd. But,

as the secretary departs,

what's likely to be his biggest

legacy is still a work in

progress, a committed lover of

Australian fauna, his animal gave him inspiration for

perhaps his most important contribution as a public

servant. It turns out there are more taxes in are more taxes in Australia

than there are northern hairy

nosed wombats. Taxes in

Australia are not an endangered

species. The Henry tax review is expected to inform the

political debate for decades to

come. Tens of thousands of

parents have started checking a

revamped version of the Government's My School website.

For the first time, the site allows parents to see how much funding their child's school

receives and, just like the

original My School website,

this version is proving

controversial. There are

claims the funding numbers are

wrong and some fear they could be used to strip money from

schools in the future. From Canberra, political correspondent Greg Jennett. It's new - at that. It's jammed full of

data. Gives you the numbers straightaway. But does School's

2.0 give too much or too little away? More information,

relevant information, necessary

information for parents, for

students, for teachers and for

the whole of our community. The

upgraded website Julia Gillard

started three years ago still

rates performance in maths and

literacy. This year it also

tries to account for funding,

at 9,500 schools, and to some

it simply doesn't add up. On our calculations, our

recurrents income has been

overstated by $1 million, and

that roughly translates into an

additional $1,000 per

student. Exaggerated say some

principals, understated claims the education union, which

demanded the figures be

published. Literally millions of dollars in surpluses, trusts, assets, investment

portfolios held by private schools will not in My School 2.0. I'm

confident the information on

the My School website is valid

and accurate as received. The

site shows average public

school income is $11,000 per

student, 10,000 for Catholic schools and almost 14,000 for

privates. Comparing a

government institution with a non-government institution is

like apples and oranges to some extent. There's a reason why

accuracy matters. Behind the

accounting debate lies bigger question. The

Government's reviewing its

entire formula for school

funding and the My Schools

website doubles as a powerful

calculator to measure needs, in

equality and value for money. What that means for the public,

private and independent funding

mix won't be clear for a year

or so. The opposition isn't

waiting. There are 1.2 million

children in the non-Government

school sector. If the

Government has their way,

school fees will have to rise as removed from these schools. Current school funding is

is guaranteed until 2013. A former Flinders finance clerk has pleaded

guilty in the Adelaide

Magistrate's Court to embezzling more than $27

million. 47-year-old Christopher Wayne

Christopher Wayne Fuss stole

the money through electronic

transfers while employed at the

university between January 2008

and 2010. He used the cash to

buy property and other

investments and large sums to the Adelaide

36ers. Fuss today pleaded

guilty to a single charge of dishonestly manipulating a

machine to secure a machine to secure a benefit. Prosecutors dropped a further

58 charges. Flinders

University says it's removed

more than $20 million of the

stolen money and expects the

final shortfall to be less than

$1 million. Fuss will be

sentenced next month. Police

say four men seen placing bets

on a controversial Rugby League

game last year could have crucial information about alleged betting scam. They've released footage of the men

taken in Sydney and Townsville,

as the scandal over a Bulldogs/Cowboys clash intensifies. one betting option on the

game's outcome attracted bets

totalling up to $50,000. Karl

Hoerr reports. A man walks into

the Ashfield TAB in Sydney and

bets that the first points in Canterbury versus North

Queensland will be a penalty

goal to the Cowboys. It's an

unusual punt, but others were

thinking along The same bet is placed by this

man in the suburb of Beaconsfield and by these two

men at a hotel in Townsville.

Police say such an option Police say such an option would normally only attract around

$500 in bets all up. I believe

at one stage it was up to

$50,000 that was placed on this particular exotic bet, so you

can make up your own minds from

that. It was round 24 and Bull

dog Ryan Tandy gave away a

penalty straight in front of

the post just minutes in, the Cowboys took the tap and

scored a try. All four men

placed their bets the day

before the match in August last

year. These bets were placed

early on in the piece and we

believe that these individuals may have information to assist

us. As the option attracted more interest, the odds

plunged. The odds started at

13 to 1, went down as low as 3

to 1. Police say they're releasing the footage because they haven't been able to

identify the men, but they're

not alleging they've an offence. Come forward,

contact investigators and we'll

keep all that information in the strictest confidence. Former player John Elias has been charged along with player/manager Sam Ayoub and

and Ryan Tandy. Police say

they've received further

information since the images

were release and their investigation continues.

Canberra was dominated this

week by Julia Gillard's

recently announced decision to

introduce a carbon tax, and parliament bitter as it debated the issue.

To discuss federal politics,

we're joined tonight by the Government's Parliamentary Secretary for Climate Change,

Mark Dreyfus, in our Melbourne

studio, and in Brisbane, George

Brandis, the Shadow

Attorney-General. Welcome to

'Lateline'. Good to be with

you, Ali. George Brandis, when

the Prime Minister

proposed the flood levy, your

side of politics argued people

hated it, the sky would fall

in, but the Newspoll indicated

otherwise and now it has support to pass. If the same thing

thing happens with the carbon

tax, Tony Abbott will be in

trouble, won't he? Well, look,

our position, Ali, is very

simple. We don't believe that

the solution to either the

reconstruction of Queensland or

carbon emissions is to impose a

great big new tax on great big new tax on the Australian people. We're going to mean, let's never forget that

the coalition are the low-tax parties parties in Australian politics.

The year is only two months old and so far and so far this year we've had

two new taxes, the flood tax

and the carbon tax, in addition

to the other great big new tax

the Government is promising,

the mining tax. Your viewers

should always bear this in

mind, Ali, one of the clear and

sharp points of distinction

between the coalition and the

Labor Party is we

low-tax side of politics. In

the last coalition Government

we reduced levels of personal

tax and company tax in tax and company tax in seven consecutive budgets Is your

polling telling you're on the

money in terms of opposing a

carbon tax I don't know what

polling is telling us, I don't

see the polling. I can tell

you what we believe. We

believe in keeping taxes as low

as they reasonably can be. Our default position is not always

to put up taxes Mark Dreyfus,

is one of the Government's biggest problems you're trying

to sell something that doesn't

exist, there's no price on carbon tax, no value on the

concessions and no ruling on

what's in and what's out?

Well, what you're seeing from

the Government, Ali, is in a measured way announcing where

we've got to on putting a price

on carbon, using the

multi-party climate change

committee, which has thus far

met four times - it met in

October, November and December

and then for the first time

this year in February - and

after every one of those meetings we've announced

negotiation. I'm pleased you

mentioned the flood levy

before, Ali, because that's an

example of the intense negativity

negativity that we've now got

used to from Tony Abbott and

the Liberal Party as soon as we

announced the recovery package

for the Queensland floods,

which included a levy, there

was immediate opposition, and I

think that the Prime Minister's demonstrated this week that

she's passed a major test of

leadership because leadership because she's secured agreement for that

flood levy. We could go health and hospital package,

which I'd remind you and

viewers that Tony Abbott came

out and opposed before the

premers and the Prime Minister had even come

to say there was agreement. There is no agreement. There is no detail,

no policy detail, about this

proposed tax and the whole

issue of carbon abatement

policy has already cost two

leaders their jobs. There's

obviously a lot at stake here.

What's the benchmark for

success and what if Julia Gillard's planned ETS turns out

looking pretty much the same as

Kevin Rudd's, which of course

Julia Gillard was very key in

getting put on the scrapheap?

What we're aiming for,

Prime Minister made this clear

last Thursday week, is to have

a carbon price in place in

Australia by 1 July 2012. What

the Prime Minister also made

clear at the same press conference when she was announcing where we've reached

agreement to in the multi-party

climate change committee was

that there hasn't yet been agreement on the carbon

on the levels of assistance

that are going to go to

households, to communities and

to industry, and investment

that's going to be that's going to be made in low-carbon technology. All of those are yet to be negotiated. George Brandis,

your side is spending a lot of time being highly critical of the Government, not necessarily

selling your own policy, direct

action is how you label it.

How exactly do you cut

emissions by your stated target in part by for carbon abatement projects

when you have a budget of only

$3.2 billion over four years.

Isn't it going to cost a whole lot more than lot more than that? Before I

respond to that, Ali, if I may

respond to something that Mark

Dreyfus has just said. He

talks grandly of a multi-party

climate change committee.

There are only two political

parties whose representatives

sit on that multi-party climate

change committee, the Labor

Party and the Greens, which reinforces one of the opposition has been reminding the Australian reminding the Australian people

of, not that they need much

reminding, all week, and that

is this is an agenda driven by

the Greens as the 30 pieces of silver for the Labor-Greens alliance. You were invited to

sit on the committee, were you

not? We declined to because we

don't want to be part of a

process to deviesz a carbon

tax. That's the second point I

was going to make. Mark studiously avoids the use of

the word "tax", although the

Prime effectively a tax. He said

it's a measured process. You

know, on 16 August I thought

the Prime Minister was very

measured when she looked down

the barrel of a

camera and said in a very

measured and deliberate way,

"There will be no carbon tax

under the Government I lead." The whole context of this

debate, Ali, is framed against

a gross betrayal of the Australian people. Mark

Dreyfus, that is a point, isn't

it, it's a hard concept to get

around? The parameters were

drawn, weren't they? Well, I don't think it's a

to get around. We made it very clear, going to the last

election, as we did going to the election in 2007, that Labor Labor wants action on climate

change, which is what the whole

of the Australian people also

want. And, again, we get this

kind of hysterical distraction

from George, as we had the hysterical destruction all week

in the parliament. I want to

go back to something George

said, which is he seems to have

forgotten Rob Oakeshott and Tony Windsor, two of the six

cross-benchers sitting in the House of Representatives,

perhaps George in the perhaps George in the Senate doesn't look too closely. We are a minority in order to pass any

legislation, we are going to

need the support of at least

four of the six cross-benchers.

Only one of those is a member

of the Greens party. I want to move on because we'll run out

of time. I want to go back to

the question, Brand George

Brandis. How do you reach the

targets with the sort of

you have on the table, 3.2

billion over four years? The

direct action plan announced by

Greg Hunt a year ago and will involve involve the expenditure of

approximately $1 billion a year

over the next ten years has

been assessed by industry

experts and we are very

confident it will achieve the

same amount of carbon abatement

that is a reduction of 5% by

2020 as the Government's plan,

but without imposing a great big new tax on the Australian

people in fragrant violation of

a promise not to do so. That

said, though, of course, one of

your own, Malcolm Turnbull, has raised the issue of potential

waste. Well, I haven't seen Mr

Turnbull's comment, but the

direct action plan which has

been developed by Greg Hunt,

who I might say is the who I might say is the climate

change intellectual of the

parliament. Nobody has spent

more of his professional career

and his academic career

Hunt. Nobody speaks with more

authority and expertise on this

issue as Greg Hunt, and his plan, without the great big tax, stacks up. All right,

let's move on, because the

carbon tax did see in

parliament this week the

suspension of regular

proceedings no less than four

times, three times through a centsure motion, which

traditionally has been used for

only really exceptional

circumstances. At the same

time we had Julia Gillard compared to Colonel Gaddafi, we

had Julia Gillard herself accusing Tony Abbott of race

baiting and accusing Julie

bishop of cat calling. What's

going on in Federal Parliament,

Mark Dreyfus, particularly

given the reforms

election last year that were

designed to make it a place of

real debate? Well, I think

what's going on in Federal

Parliament is that the Liberal

Party has given up debating

policy and wants to just do

stunts. That's why, instead of using the chief accountability

mechanism of the House of Reps,

which is Question Time, they've abandoned Question Time Tony Abbott wants to do a stunt

for the nightly news every day

and take up the time that the

Parliament has given over to

Question Time with a censure

motion he has lost on every

occasion that he's put it up.

It's just to give him some kind

of platform to say outrageous

things, to say hysterical things, anything rather than debate. Senator Brandis? Look,

don't be heroic about the fact that Tony Abbott has lost the

censure motions. If the censure motion Government would have fallen.

So that's hardly surprising.

The fact is that a censure

motion - we had one in the

Senate on Monday as well, by

the way - is the most serious form of parliamentary proceeding that an opposition

can engage in to express its

deep, deep concern about where

a Government is going. These

are unusual times, Ali.

They're unusual times and this is an unusual parliament, not

just because it's a minority

Government, but because this

parliament has resumed this

year year against the back ground of the Labor/Greens alliance. Breaking a solemn

commitment to the Australian people. Doesn't effectiveness of a censure

motion rely on it being used rarely and in special

circumstances. Once you get

three in a week? Well, I think the circumstances are unusual

and absolutely warrant more than one censure motion last week, because this Government

is deeply censurable because it went to the Five days before the election,

Julia Gillard said, "There will

be no carbon tax under the

Government I lead." Government I lead." The day

before the election she said

"Iual out carbon tax". Now

perhaps under pressure from

Senator Brown, she has abandoned that solemn

commitment on the strengths of

which she was elected last

year. Mark Dreyfus, Tony

Windsor for one says he has

death threats. To quote him,

there's been an elevation of incitement in

message. It only takes one unhinged person and it will

change everything. He talks

about going over the edge,

given that the rhetoric, given

the tone of the debate. Are we close

close to going over the edge?

I think that people in public

life have a responsibility to

use language wisely. I think

that when you get phrases like

"people's revolt" or "assault

on democracy" or "a parliamentary conspiracy

against the Australian people", or or when you get not one but two liberal frontbenchers in a

contrived attack comparing the Prime Minister to the murderous Libyan dictator Moammar

Gaddafi, then you've actually

gone over the line in terms of

the language and it seems to me

that what we've had is a series

of stunts this week from the

Liberal Party. Are you accusing the

the coalition of inciting behaviour that could amount to

going over the edge? Is that

as far as you're going? No, the language that's been used,

which I think is intemperate.

I think we are not able to have

the kind of measured national

conversation that we should be

having about something that is

incredibly important for the

nation's future. It is taking

action on climate change.

Well, I think that the

language is passionate and it

ought to be passionate, because

these are, as I said before,

unusual times. You have had a

Government that got elected on

a lie. We now know that that

was a lie. Its integrity is in

tatters. So of course the

parliament and the Opposition

in particular will take a very

serious view of this. In

relation to comment, for heaven's sake,

it's not the first time that an

Australian Prime Minister has

been accused of acting like a

dictator. It's certainly a fragrant violation of democratic values to promise

one thing in order to get

yourself elected and then to

violate fragrantly that promise which was the basis you were elected? As soon as you get over the line. Your

boss urged a kinder, gentler

polity. I think what is important is

and political leaders act with

integrity, and it is a sad fact

that everybody in Australia

knows it now, that this Prime

Minister is without integrity.

The Government's integrity is

in tatters, because they promised there would be promised there would be no

carbon tax in order to get

themselves elected and no

sooner were they installed in Government

pressure from Senator Brown and

the Greens they abandoned the

solemn commitment to the people. George Brandis, I think

you've made your point. you've made your point. We're

out of time. Both of you, many

thanks for joining us. Thanks,

Ali. See you, George. Media

mogul Rupert Murdoch is set to

expand his empire again after

winning the all-clear to take over satellite

over satellite broadcaster BSkyB. approved the bid after News

Corporation agreed to spin off

its Sky News channel. The deal

could be worth as much as $16 billion and it's billion and it's got Mr

Murdoch's media rivals crying

foul. Europe correspondent Emma

Emma Alberici reports. With the

launch of Sky New it's, Britain

had its first 24-hour news

service. Now it's the channel

itself that's making headlines.

Getting the Green light, the

Culture Secretary says News corp can take over ... The parent company, BSkyB,

is already part-owned by Rupert

Murdoch's News Corporation.

The British Government has now

given the nod for it to buy

rest, as long as it agrees to

spin off Sky News into a separately listed public

company. There's been a

widespread campaign to urge him

to refer the issue to the

Competition Commission. I think

think there's a quarter of a million people who signed the

petition. Over 100,000 have

written to him. He's ignored all all that, ignored the original Offcom recommendations and

handed over effectively near

monopoly control to Rupert

Murdoch. Five media groups,

including Telecom's giant BT,

the Guardian and the Telegraph

are equally outraged by the

deal. They say it's a whitewash and are planning a

legal challenge against the

Government's decision. The

question is whether this deal

tips the balance in a way which

is unacceptable in terms of our

questions about just how close Rupert Murdoch has become to

the ruling coalition, since his

biggest-selling newspaper, the Sun, publicly backed David

Cameron during last year's

election. It's precisely

because of the concerns that people

people express about

politicians being involved in

this process that I have sought

and published independent

advice at every stage of the

process, even when I didn't

have to. This is a deal which

means that James Rupert Murdoch, will have less

control over news media in this country. Rupert country. Rupert Murdoch turns

80 next week, but his ambition

for the company he started in

Adelaide almost 60 years ago shows no sign of slowing. News

Corporation is already the UK's dominant commercial media

player. It owns four of the

biggest-selling newspapers and

even though the Government is

making it hive off Sky News, it

will still be allowed to retain

a 39% stake in

channel. News corp will be

able to apply to increase that

shareholding after 10 years,

during which time it will fund the broadcaster to ensure its

viability. The terms of the

BSkyB takeover will now be the

subject of a 15-day public

consultation period. As winter

approaches, thoughts are no

doubt turning to flu

vaccinations, but health

authorities are urging people,

especially parents of young children, whooping cough as well. Four

infants have died in Australia

in three years. The latest

death was in Melbourne in

February. But a new trial which which vaccinates babies only a

few days old is showing

positive results in protecting

one of society's most at-risk

groups. Hamish Fitzsimmons

reports. Vaccinating younger

babies against whooping cough

got the interest of Alex

Robson, who wanted to protect

her son from the disease which is described by health

authorities as an epidemic. He

was four days, I

was vaccinated. Because we've

heard of cases of babies as

young as five weeks getting whooping cough. When they get

it, it's hard for young babies

to get rid of it. So we just

thought we'd get it done as

soon as possible. I think the

early results are very

encouraging, in the sense that

we're getting, you know, good

levels of antibodies and we are

achieving that before you start im miezing at the

administered at six weeks, the

trial by the National Center

for immunisation research in

Sydney is vaccinating babies as

young as a few days old, in

Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and

Perth? We're aiming to recruit

400 babies in total and we're

particularly interested also in

the question of whether, if the

mother has had a vaccine

herself, as of course recommended in lots of States of Australia at the moment,

whether that has

what happens with the baby. To

the end of February, Victoria alone recorded over 1900 cases

of whooping cough, or pet usis

as it's known. Compared to

just over 800 for the same

period last year and around 500

for the period for the year

before that, so, yes, we're

seeing a large increase in

pertussis or whooping cough cases. Younger babies are most vulnerable. In February, a 14-day-old baby died in

Melbourne from the infection,

prompting calls for at-risk

groups, particularly parents

and those in contact with

children, to make sure they've been vaccinated. At the

moment, with our high

immunisation rates in young

children, it's the young babies who we can't immunise at the

highest risk. The peak medical

lobby has welcomed the trial

and can't stress enough the

dangers whooping cough can

pose. The immunity in the

community is That's why we've got increased

rates of whooping cough in

adults of child-bearing age. That's why we want those adults who are having children, who've

just had babies, to be immunised. It's very importance that they do. For

parents like Alex Robson,

seeing the prevalence of

whooping cough in the community

has backed her decision to have

her son vaccinated at such a

young age. I've had a few

friends who've had their little ones well. So we just thought, you know, it's obviously on know, it's obviously on the

increase, so it is out there, so it's best to get vaccinated as soon as possible, I

think. For 1400 years it's been

building some of Japan's most beautiful Buddhist temples,

recognised as the world's oldest country, Kongo Gumi Constructions

Constructions has xhikd storms,

world wars and upheavals. With

over a millennia behind it, it

couldn't. North Asia

correspondent mark Willacy reports from Osaka. The

krafrtsman of Kongo Gumi have

been carving and constructing since Mohammed was a boy,

literally. In 578 Islam's

prophet was an 8-year-old in

far-away Arabia, while in Japan

another religion, Buddhism, had

just arrived and

converts. Its advent here would would mark the beginnings of the Kongo Gumi family the Kongo Gumi family business.

40 generations later, they're

still building temples.

TRANSLATION: In the 6th

century Japan didn't have temples or knowledge about how

to build them, our ancestor was

summoned from Korea to build Japan's

Japan's first Buddhist temple.

And this is

first masterpiece. The

construction of this temple in

Osaka began in 593. Its dine

featuring elaborate gates and a five-storey pagoda. Rans trans

it's an important building

that's true worth cannot be put

into words. I feel proud the

world can see our work with

this temple. And over the

centuries he's provided the

company with plenty of

In all, it's been rebuilt eight

times by Kongo Gumi. After falling victim to earthquakes, typhoons, fire and typhoons, fire and a World War

II bombing raid. TRANSLATION:

The traditions and secrets of temple building have been

passed on from master to apresentis. apresentis. It's very

difficult for other companies

to copy our style and build

temples like Kongo Gumi. One of the secrets of Kongo Gumi's 1,428-year run

flexibility, so when the temple-building business hid

the skids during World War II,

the company responded, and switched to building coffins.

While it's very much a family

firm, Kongo Gumi has always

chosen its leaders on the basis

of talent, so men didn't always

get handed the reins. But even

the world's oldest company

could not survive the economic

tsunami that has in recent times. In 2006,

saddled with half a billion

dollars in debt, Kongo Gumi

became a subsidiary of another

firm and Kongo became its second-last independent

President. TRANSLATION: I

don't think we've lost our

independence. It's just when

we don't have much work, we get

help from the parent company,

but we have young people in the

family coming through. I'd

like to see our company

continue for thousands

years. It takes Kongo Gumi's

master builder Kato 10 years to train train an apresentis carpenter.

To him, raising Buddhist

temples is an art, not a trade.

He's worked for the company for

52 years, and he believes it

will be around for many more

years to come. TRANSLATION:

The buildings we build now will

have to be repaired in 150 years time. After 300

years it will need to be

rebuilt. I think this kind of

work will continue forever. And the lessons for other businesses hoping to better Kongo Gumi's 1400-year run,

flexibility, foresight and a formidable family tree. Now to

the weather. Rain easing to

showers in Brisbane. Showers

and a storm for Darwin. cloudy in Canberra. A morning shower for Perth. A possible

shower in Sydney. Fine and

mostly sunny in the other capital cities. That's all

from us. from us. If you'd like to look back at tonight's discussion

with George Brandis and Mark

Dreyfus or review any of

'Lateline''s stories or transcripts, visit transcripts, visit our website

and also follow us on Twitter

and Facebook. See you again on

Monday. Enjoy your week yends. Good night. Closed Captions by CSI

.. THEME MUSIC Ahhh... How was Alcohol Anonymous, Dad? Well, they're a nice enough bunch, but ever so hard to get down the pub afterwards. Mind you, when you do, you can never get 'em out again. I thought the whole point of AA was to stop you drinking. Oh, no, Dave. The whole point of AA is networking. I am pretending to bare my soul with some of the biggest movers and shakers in the music business. Just think what they're gonna say when my demo tape slides across their desk. They're gonna say, "Oh, look, it's that rubbish pisshead from Kilburn. The one from no soul. Chuck it in the bin, it's bound to be crap." Don't you feel like you're taking advantage of people at their lowest?

Oh, no-no. I do that on Tuesdays. Sex-aholics Anonymous. Ah, yes. Those poor people will sink to almost any depth with just about anybody as they try to obliterate their self-loathing with some degrading, meaningless, sexual encounter. Ah! Yeah. And I still can't pull. Mind you, on the whole, I prefer Narcotics Anonymous. Nicer biscuits. And funny stories. (LAUGHS) I mean, wu-ahhhh... (LAUGHS) Does none of this ever get to you? Oh, there was one today... He was so funny. Me and Eric, heh, nearly got thrown out for laughing. This bloke was crying so much, we thought he must have some truly horrendous confession to make. And all he was... (LAUGHS) All he was... (LAUGHS) ..was he thought he'd been a bit of a rubbish dad. (LAUGHS) Did he give any specific examples of being a rubbish dad... ..Dad? Just that he'd never really been there for his kids. What? Like...he never once picked them up from school. That sort of thing? Never been to see them in the school play.

Yeah. Or been to sports day. That sort of thing. Did he used to like take all his kids' birthday and Christmas money? Did he say, "I'll put it in a high-interest savings account for you?" But then, actually, spend it all down the pub? Yep. That was one. Bet he never let them have a second dog after their first one died. Even when they begged and begged. That was another one. And if his kids did get a pet,

even if it was just like a little hamster called Mr Snuffles, did he get rid of it just because the wheel made a noise? Yeah. Did the kids come down one morning to find the cage open

and their dad hammering at something in a sack? Don't remember anything as specific as that. Did he, perhaps, steel the Sega Mega Drive that Aunty Margaret sent from Australia and then pretend it never arrived? Are we still talking about the same person? We heard you! We heard you playing Sonic The Hedgehog every night in your bedroom. We could hear the weird noises going on for hours. Might have been your mum. Might have been a marital moment. If Mum had been making those kind of noises she never would have run off with the European Commissioner For Soft Fruit. Or was their father a vicious Triad gang member who refused to pay the ransom on his only son until they sent half his son's gentleman, excuse me, in a BOX? That wasn't me, was it? Oh, no. Sorry. And then, when Milly had finally stopped crying, she said I should go to Anonymous Anonymous. As far as she was concerned, I was a nobody. I mean, obviously, I'm not a perfect dad. No. You're a rubbish dad. No, I am not. You are. I'm not! All right. When Max's birthday? Errrr... Ju...

December 4th. Oh.

I know Milly's. Heheh. I can always remember hers. Cos she was born on the night of the last-ever Clash gig. May 23rd. I know that. I was there. No, you weren't. You were at The Clash gig. That's what I meant. Yes. It was me that drove Tessa to the hospital.

It was ME who was at the birth.

Well, I didn't want another kid. It's just another life-sentence of doing the school run and three-hour nativity plays with the shepherd that refuses to speak. School run? You never did the school run. What is this conspiracy about me never doing the school run? It was practically my only job for 15 years! No. You always had something better to do. Because you've always been a selfish git. Remember my stag night? Your stag night was probably the most perfect evening I can remember. You tell me one thing that was missing. Me! You were my best man, but you forgot to tell me where it was. You got the mini bus, you picked up everybody else, but forgot to get me.

You're not still going on about that, are ya? You were at the end of the route. We'd already had a few. We were gonna be late for the strippers and the paintballing. Oh, yeah. Sorry, Vernon. That's all right. So what happened to this bloke at the AA meeting, eh? The rubbish dad. Has he tried to make it up with his kids? Well, he tried. But get this... They put an advertisement for a new dad in the small ads. Well, maybe he should have tried to apologise to them sooner. (LAUGHS) Apologise? To your kids? Don't they talk about any of this stuff at your meetings? I don't really know. I don't pay much attention to the chat. I just keep my eye on the Hobnobs. They go ever so quick. Yeah. Just keep your eye on the small ads, mate.