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Lateline -

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Tonight - detention tension.

We should be dealing with these people in a humanitarian compassionate manner.

We must show some humanity to these people, not make them criminals and lock them up.

This Program Is Captioned Live.

Good evening. Welcome to 'Lateline'. I'm Ali Moore. Four years out from the 100th anniversary of
the landings at Gallipoli, what does ANZAC mean for Australia in 2011? With the events on the
battlefields of World War I hailed by many as the birthplace of our national identity, have what
Anzac Day really stands for?

I think we have to accept that that not only is Anzac Day changing but that it's always changed.
And it's always been a compound of complex emotions. It's been compounded of national pride, of
individual remembrance, of national remembrance, and as Paul says, of behaviour that really appears
to conflict very much with the sombreness of the day but that's not a modern phenomenon. That's
always been the case.

The point is I we're sort of leading history backwards. We're burdening the poor old digger with so
much responsibility for what Australia has become. They didn't go to war. They didn't fight for
their mates and die and lose their limbs and experience the most appalling things on those wretched
front lines so that Australia could now bask in this sort of glorified nation of its identity.

Tonight - author Paul Ham and historian Peter Stanley to discuss a day that's come to represent so
much more than a dirty defeat on foreign shores. First our other headlines. Could the tide be
turning in Libya? NATO bombs hit Gaddafi's compound in Tripoli and rebel troops stage a rally
against government forces in forces in Misrata. Secret forces in Misrata. Secret no more. WikiLeaks
releases hundreds of files on prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay.

Refugee supporters march in Sydney and Melbourne

Refugee supporters march in Sydney and Melbourne

Broadcast: 25/04/2011

Reporter: Karen Barlow

Protests are continuing inside and outside immigration detention centres at Christmas Island,
Curtin and Villawood.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Emotions are running high inside and outside Australia's immigration
detention centres with a rooftop protest in Sydney continuing.

Three men are holding a hunger strike on Villawood's roof while 22 asylum seekers are being held
without charge in a maximum security prison following last week's riot.

Hundreds of refugee supporters protested in Sydney and Melbourne and there have been disturbances
at the Christmas Island and Curtin detention centres.

Karen Barlow reports.

KAREN BARLOW, REPORTER: Mounted police held back protestors at the fence of Melbourne's Maribyrnong
detention centre. Capsicum spray was used, but there were no arrests.

The protestors here and in Sydney today called for an end to mandatory immigration detention.

The march to the Villawood immigration detention centre took place five days after fiery unrest and
on day six of a hunger strike on the roof.

Their applications for asylum were rejected, but Iranian asylum seeker Majid is not giving up.

MAJID, IRANIAN ASYLUM SEEKER: (Inaudible) ... three of (inaudible) are very sick, shake body.

KAREN BARLOW: You were shaking?

MAJID: Yeah. (Coughs).

KAREN BARLOW: How long have you had no food for?

MAJID: Six days.


MAJID: Yeah.

KAREN BARLOW: Are the officials talking to you? Has the minister called you again?

MAJID: Nah. Nothing.

KAREN BARLOW: But authorities say negotiations with the men are continuing and a representative
from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees is about to get involved.

The Australian representative from the UNHCR says he'll talk to the men if they come down.

The Immigration Department has also confirmed a hunger strike is underway at Western Australia's
Curtin detention centre. About 30 asylum seekers at Curtin have received on-site medical treatment.

Refugee supporters tried to get in to see the detainees, but 16 were arrested.

On Christmas Island, an asylum seeker has sewn his lips together and Lateline understands others
may have followed him. But the Immigration Department will only say one detainee who attempted
self-harm is receiving medical treatment.

COLLEEN HARTLAND, VICTORIA GREENS MP: We should be treating these people in a humanitarian,
compassionate manner, not in the way we deal with it now where we lock people up and we send them

KAREN BARLOW: The immigration system has now spilled over to the Australian correctional system.

On Friday, two days after the Villawood riots, 22 asylum seekers were transferred to the maximum
security section of Sydney's Silverwater Jail.

STEPHEN BLANKS, NSW COUNCIL FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES: The men are totally perplexed about what's
happened to them. They haven't been given any explanation as to why they've been moved to a prison.

KAREN BARLOW: The men have not been charged over the damage to Villawood and their lawyer says they
haven't even been questioned over it.

STEPHEN BLANKS: Several of them have told the legal team that they didn't know anything about the
riots and weren't involved.

KAREN BARLOW: A spokesman for the Immigration Department says the imprisonment is permitted under
the Migration Act and he's certain the men are being looked after. He says most of the men are not
in solitary confinement.

Overcrowding, unrest and two major fiery riots this year; it's been uneasy time in immigration
detention. It's now been revealed that the two people with oversight of Australia's detention
centres moved on two weeks ago.

The Immigration Department says deputy secretary Jackie Wilson was promoted to the business
services group. And another deputy secretary, Bob Correll, has retired, although the department
says neither change has anything to do with recent trouble at the centres.

Karen Barlow, Lateline.

Clarification: A spokesman for the Minister for Immigration, Chris Bowen, has said that claims by
asylum seekers and advocates that Mr Bowen has personally called protesting asylum seekers at the
Villawood detention centre are incorrect. The spokesman said Mr Bowen has not called any of those
asylum seekers.

Gillard remembers 'forgotten war'

Gillard remembers 'forgotten war'

Broadcast: 25/04/2011

Reporter: Mark Simkin

Julia Gillard has attended an Anzac Day dawn service in Seoul, saying Australians need to remember
the Korean War.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The Prime Minister has arrived in China.

Julia Gillard's plane touched down in Beijing a short time ago where she was greeted by a vice

Ms Gillard is scheduled to hold talks with President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao.

Business links between the two countries will be high on the agenda and the Prime Minister has
already flagged she will be raising human rights issues with the Chinese Government.

Earlier Julia Gillard marked her first Anzac Day as Prime Minister in a dawn service in Seoul along
with veterans of the Korean War.

Sometimes called "the Forgotten War", she says Australians should do more to remember it.

Chief political correspondent Mark Simkin reports.

MARK SIMKIN, REPORTER: At the coming up of the sun, they remembered them. More than 100,000
Australians have died on the battlefield.

JULIA GILLARD, PRIME MINISTER: Each of them one of us, each of them lost to us now. Each in essence
an ordinary Australian who we asked to do an extraordinary thing.

MARK SIMKIN: Julia Gillard's the first Australian Prime Minister to commemorate Anzac Day in Korea.
She paid particular tribute to the hundreds of Australians killed here.

JULIA GILLARD: Australians do remember them. Australians will remember them. We remember them with
our silence, lest we forget.

MARK SIMKIN: Many Australians have forgotten the Korean War, and that's angered some of its

They say it's about time their sacrifices were recognised.

KEITH PAYNE, VICTORIA CROSS RECIPIENT: To be here in this country at this time for veterans that
have served here, it's a very meaningful occasion.

MARK SIMKIN: The veterans aren't the only ones glad Julia Gillard's here. South Korea's president
talked about the threat posed by North Korea, a day after the Prime Minister came face to face with
the communist country.

JULIA GILLARD: It tested my skills at being able to stare at people. I hope I proved adequate for
the test.

MARK SIMKIN: Julia Gillard isn't only trying to build closer defence ties with South Korea, she
wants a free trade deal with Australia's third biggest export market, and privately, Australian
officials are confident they'll get one by the end of the year.

JULIA GILLARD: An agreement between Korea and Australia is in the interests of both our nations,
it's in Australia's interest, particularly in the interests of our agricultural sector.

MARK SIMKIN: That's for the future; today's main focus is the past.

Mark Simkin, Lateline.

Wallace apologises for Anzac tweet

Wallace apologises for Anzac tweet

Broadcast: 25/04/2011

Reporter: Ali Moore

Australian Christian Lobby head Jim Wallace has apologised for saying on twitter that Anzacs did
not fight for Islam or gay marriage.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The head of the Australian Christian Lobby, Jim Wallace, has apologised for
writing on a social networking site that the ANZACs did not fight for Islam or gay marriage.

Mr Wallace made the remarks on Twitter earlier today. After a wave of criticism, he issued an
apology, saying that he did not intend to suggest that veterans had not fought for all Australians.

Mr Wallace also acknowledged that gays and Muslims have fought for Australia in the past, but he
said that what made Australia worth fighting for has been largely drawn from a Judeo-Christian

Historians debate importance of Anzac story

Historians debate importance of Anzac story

Broadcast: 25/04/2011

Reporter: John Stewart

Some historians argue Australia places too much emphasis on the Anzac legend and has forgotten
other voices from the past.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: In four years Australia will mark the 100th anniversary of the first landings
on the shores of Gallipoli in 1915.

As we get closer to the centenary, historians are involved in a heated debate about the importance
of the Anzac story in Australian history.

Some historians argue that Australians have placed too much emphasis on Gallipoli and the Anzac
legend and that other voices from the past have been forgotten.

John Stewart reports.

JOHN STEWART, REPORTER: As dawn broke over Gallipoli, Australians and New Zealanders were among
thousands gathered at Anzac Cove to remember the landings at Gallipoli 96 years ago.

In Sydney, a large crowd braved the rain to attend the dawn service.

TEENAGE GIRL (addressing audience at dawn service): At the going down of the sun, and in the
morning, we will remember them.

JOHN STEWART: Throughout the day, tens of thousands of Australians turned out to watch the march in
cities and towns across the country.

Overseas, the Governor-General Quentin Bryce led the Anzac Day service at the site of the
Thai-Burma railway, marking 68 years since Australian prisoners of war were put to work on the
Hellfire Pass. Nearly 3,000 Australians died working on the railway.

QUENTIN BRYCE, GOVERNOR-GENERAL: Our torchlight recalls the long lit gruelling nights of work, the
days that never gave way to nourishment and sleep. Our soldiers' strange and gruesome battlefield.

JOHN STEWART: And in Afghanistan, Australian soldiers remembered their fallen comrades. The Defence
Minister, Stephen Smith, spoke of the dangers facing troops.

STEPHEN SMITH, DEFENCE MINISTER: We must expect the Taliban to fight back. The coming summer will
be tough. We can expect our adversaries to strike against coalition forces and civilians alike.

JOHN STEWART: For the past three decades, Anzac Day has grown in popularity, with younger
generations marching alongside veterans.

But Anzac Day has not always been so popular.

During the 1960's and '70's, anti-Vietnam War protests posed a major challenge to Anzac Day
services and some feared that Australia's most important day of remembrance might soon disappear.

PROFESSOR BRUCE SCATES, MONASH UNIVERSITY: The Vietnam War was as a divisive a war as the Great War
was. And of course the defining feature of the Vietnam War is that Australian youth was being
conscripted to fight that war.

So, the enthusiasm you see amongst young people today for Anzac Day I don't think could not have
been replicated in the 1970's or 1960's.

JOHN STEWART: Well before the Vietnam War, Australian society was deeply divided over the nation's
role in foreign wars.

History professor Marilyn Lake from La Trobe University argues that Australia's anti-war movements
have been largely forgotten.

MARILYN LAKE, LA TROBE UNIVERSITY: There was opposition to our participation in the Boer War, there
was massive opposition to World War I and of course anti-conscription movements that were actually
successful in defeating referenda for conscription.

There was a lot of disillusionment in the 1920's, and not least amongst returned soldiers who came
home and were deeply disillusioned by how they were treated in 1920s. By mass unemployment, for
example, in the 1930s, and by the sense that they'd been used, you know, to fight a war which meant
nothing to them.

JOHN STEWART: Professor Lake also argues that the Anzac story has been given too much credit for
shaping Australia's national identity.

MARILYN LAKE: One of the historical claims is that Australia became a nation in 1915. Which of
course is ridiculous in the sense that Australia became a nation in 1901 with Federation. And then
the claim that further goes on to say that our values and traditions were formed in military
service. And again, actually, our values and traditions were very much democratic values and
traditions which were forged in the late 19th Century and into the 20th Century by a whole lot of
people, activists, political leaders who believed in things like equality of opportunity. They were
our chief, core values, not the values forged in military service.

JOHN STEWART: But other historians argue that Gallipoli and the Anzac story did create a sense of

BRUCE SCATES: The reality of it is that in 1915, when we go to war, we go to war as Victorians,
South Australians, West Australians. I think it's the experience of the Great War that does make us
more conscious of our own identity as a people. And I also think that it's the experience of the
Great War that reminds us where we stand in the world.

JOHN STEWART: The RSL rejects any claims that Anzac day as overshadowing other parts of Australian

KEN DOOLAN, NATIONAL PRESIDENT, RSL: Well one of the wonderful things that those who fell in battle
have left us is this great freedom we have in this country to speak our minds. And to have the
freedom of expression, to be able put a point of view which was not necessarily agreed by everybody
else. Not every country in the world has that and we owe a great debt to those who've gone forward
to make sure that we have these freedoms still today.

JOHN STEWART: John Stewart, Lateline.

The importance of Gallipoli for Australia

The importance of Gallipoli for Australia

Broadcast: 25/04/2011

Reporter: Ali Moore

Lateline is joined by historian and author Dr Peter Stanley from the National Museum of Australia,
and journalist and author Paul Ham.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Just a short time ago I was joined from Villers-Bretonneux by historian and
author Dr Peter Stanley from the National Museum of Australia, and in the studio by journalist and
author, most recently with a book about Vietnam, Paul Ham.

Paul Ham and Peter Stanley, welcome to Lateline.

It was the official Australian war correspondent Charles Bean who declared that with the landing on
Gallipoli, or at Gallipoli, the consciousness of Australian nationhood was born, and Peter Stanley,
as you've written, it was then Bean who went on to define what's now known as the Anzac legend:
bravery, ingenuity, endurance and comradeship. Did it really take a war to forge the Australian

PETER STANLEY, NATIONAL MUSEUM OF AUSTRALIA: I don't think it did; I think that's a bit of
hyperbole. After all, Australia federated in 1901 and there was a consciousness of nationhood of a

But Australians during the Great War were conscious that they were taking part in great world
events for the first time and it was in their consciousness that meant that they felt they were a
nation, they had earned the right to call themselves a nation. So the legal formulation, if you
like, was followed by what they regarded as a blood sacrifice.

ALI MOORE: But those elements, I guess - bravery, endurance, comradeship - Paul Ham, in reality
aren't they qualities that you could attribute to any fighting force anywhere?

PAUL HAM, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: Absolutely. I mean, the French Army showed exactly the same
qualities, the British Army showed the same qualities. The French lost 1.3 million men on the
Western Front - 3.3 per cent of its population. I mean, those quantitative judgments don't apply to
the wife or the son of one of the French diggers, but certainly they showed extraordinary courage
in World War I.

So what we have to ask ourselves is, what is unique therefore about Gallipoli? What do we draw from
that which should sustain our national identity? And I would contend that it's really - all things
being equal, in other words the diggers for different countries being equal, I would contend that
we really define ourselves by what we're not.

We're not English, we're not Scottish, we're not Irish, we're Australian for the first time
fighting. And I don't think that's a very healthy way of defining your national identity. It should
be drawing on a number of different attributes.

Certainly the arts, certainly sports, certainly science, engineering, business. And I often why
Australian women don't sometimes question why this is our national identity. There's many other
things that we should be drawing on - from it.

ALI MOORE: Peter Stanley, what do you think of the fact that we do draw on this and collectively we
talk about it as being the source of our national identity, the counterpoint, if you like?

PETER STANLEY: Mmm. Well I think while it's true Australians do represent the same sorts of
qualities as other nations in courage and comradeship and so on, there is a distinctive Australian
inflection to this. And we've seen that on the tour the Western Front that I'm engaged in at the

A group of 30 Australians is going around with me around the Western Front, and again and again we
come across distinctive Australian expressions of those common human attributes. So comradeship,
for example, is expressed by the statue up the road at Fromelles where the statue represents an
Australian soldier calling out, "Don't forget me, cobber." So it's the Australian element in that
common human experience which Australians are relating to.

ALI MOORE: So, you're in Villers-Bretonneux, as you said. What does Anzac Day mean today in 2011?
Does it still mean remembering those who died? Or does it now mean something else?

PETER STANLEY: No, it absolutely means remembering those who died, and I have to say that having
been to - been a part of the Anzac Day memorial service here at Villers-Bretonneux this morning,
I've never been to a more moving Anzac Day ceremony, because its focus is very much on the dead of
the Great War and it was much less about the celebration of national attributes.

So, I was really heartened to see the very mature way in which not just the ceremony was conducted,
but the way in which the Australians at the ceremony responded to the sentiments of remembrance. It
- I was expecting outbursts of national pride, you know, the "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie". And there
was none of that at all. So, the focus was very much on the dead who are - as you can see from the
backdrop here, who are lying in the field behind me. So, really, I thought it was the perfect
expression of the essence of the Anzac spirit.

ALI MOORE: Paul Ham, the point that Peter Stanley makes there, that he was expecting part of that
"Aussie, Aussie, Aussie", and it has in many ways become a de facto Australia Day, hasn't it?

PAUL HAM: Yes, more of a celebration, more an expression of triumphalism in some respects. Although
I was there this morning, and this was a very sober ceremony of a memorial day, really, to not only
the dead, but the injured, the wounded, the servicemen and women who contributed to these wars. Not
simply World War I, but World War II and the Vietnam War and other wars that we're fighting today.
And I think that it was also a very sober expression. It was a very moving event.

Later in the day, however, we see after the marches, which were excellent, and there were huge
numbers of people turned out in the pouring rain, but later in the afternoon, you do - as part of
my research for this program, just dropped into a few pubs, and yes there is the two up and raging,
sort of slightly drunken atmosphere, which I have nothing - no problem with. This is probably how
the diggers themselves behaved in r 'n' r in many wars.

ALI MOORE: But I wonder how that sits the - on the one hand the remembering, which is what Anzac
Day began as, and on the other hand talking about it as the place where the Australian identity was
forged. Peter Stanley, how do those two things sit together?

PETER STANLEY: Oh, Ali, I think they fit very well together. I think we have to accept that not
only is Anzac Day changing, but that it has always changed, and it's always been a compound of
complex emotions.

It's been compounded of national pride, of individual remembrance, of national remembrance, and as
Paul says, of behaviour that really appears to conflict very much with the sombreness of the day.
But that's not a modern phenomenon. That's always been the case. There were debates in the 1920s
about whether pubs should be left open on Anzac Day.

So I think Australians have to accept that the day belongs to everybody and people observe the day
in different ways, even though some of us would prefer that they didn't. But that's part of the
diversity that makes Australia a society worth believing in.

ALI MOORE: And, Paul Ham, I was going to say that perhaps one of the greatest ironies is that those
who were actually at Gallipoli, many of them never went to Anzac Day commemorations. They didn't
want to talk about it, they didn't want to remember it.

PAUL HAM: Exactly and similarly with many other diggers. The Vietnam veterans didn't turn up to
Anzac Day for many years. They felt unwelcome.

The point is I think we're sort of reading history backwards. We're burdening the poor, old digger
with so much responsibility for what Australia has become. Now they didn't go to war, they didn't
fight for their mates and die and lose their limbs and experience the most appalling things on
those wretched frontlines so that Australia could now bask in this sort of glorified nation of its

They did those things for their mates, as our recent Victoria Cross winner has so eloquently said,
but also for the expectations of them in their unit, and for those perhaps difficult notions of
freedom and democracy, which are always in the background, which are always there. And I think that
we have to try to see war through the prism, through the eyes of the soldiers who fought, the men
and women who contributed, rather than simply bundling all this idea of what happened onto them
from this great distance. And that's what makes the national identity argument somewhat difficult
for me.

ALI MOORE: Peter Stanley, you say that Australia Day now belongs to everybody, but I've also read
that you say Anzac Day is now a brand and in many ways ownership has passed from the veterans to
this self-perpetuating bureaucracy?

PETER STANLEY: Yes, that's one of the trends I think we can identify across the decades.
Originally, say in the 1920s, Anzac Day was very much a community expression of remembrance and
celebration of the qualities of Australians in war. But as veterans died, commemoration has passed
more to official agencies.

Graham Seal talks about this in his book Inventing Anzac, and he shows that there's been a move
from, if you like, popular commemoration very much to official. Now, it's a brand, but it has
different products.

So, the Gallipoli brand is somewhat different to the brand here at Villers-Bretonneux. Here at
Villers-Bretonneux, the commemoration I think had it exactly right. I think some of the speeches
were a bit long and I question the choice of the hymns, but the commemoration got the tone just
right and the proof of that is the demeanour of those who attended.

In fact, the most - perhaps it was most successful because the most moving part of the ceremony for
me was that at the end, members of families of those who died and indeed who served in the war were
asked to come forward to lay wreaths, so it combined very fine and well-produced official ceremony,
but also the popular involvement which expressed ordinary people's attitudes to Anzac. So, here at
Villers-Bretonneux, I think we got it just right.

ALI MOORE: It would seem though an interesting dichotomy, if you like, that on the one hand it's a
brand and it's run by bureaucracy, but on the other hand we have seen this enormous resurgence of
people interested.

PAUL HAM: Yeah, the young.

PETER STANLEY: That's right.

PAUL HAM: The young are fascinated, intrigued by it and learning a lot more about it. And let's
hope they continue doing that, because after all, they inherit the mantle what it means to be an
Anzac. If there was another war, God forbid, they would be the ones expected to defend this country
or to ally with another country to fight some kind of tyranny.

But the problem with the national identity argument is that if we apply the counter-factual point
of view that what if Gallipoli hadn't happened? What if we hadn't been our own army? What if the
Australians were forced to fight with the British and they were rolled up into the one? And what
would we then derive as our sustenance for our national identity?

I think you need to sort of see it in perspective, in context. And the memorials that I saw today
were a very sober expression of memorial, of not celebration, and that is exactly how it should be,
and I thought it was a wonderful experience.

ALI MOORE: Peter Stanley, that's an interesting question, though, isn't it?

PETER STANLEY: Well, now, that is an interesting question. Can I point out there is another war and
it's on at the moment and young Australians are fighting it. So it's not a hypothetical question at

But, can I pick up the young people and the national identity question? One of the really
impressive things about the ceremony here today - and I went round and looked for young Australians
and the first point to make is that there were very few young Australians here. I'd say about five
per cent of the crowd was under 20. Perhaps 10 per cent was under 25. So, the resurgence, the
backpacker Anzac Day phenomenon that we see on Gallipoli isn't apparent in France yet.

But a very, very small proportion of those young people were draped in the flag. Which I think is
important, that people don't drape themselves in the flag and adopt a jingoistic attitude towards
Anzac Day. So, their national identity that people expressed here today was quiet and mature and
reflective, and not strident or jingoistic, and that's a wonderful expression of the essence of
Australian democracy and Australian society.

ALI MOORE: And you make the point that of course we are in a war as we speak. And I wonder, Paul
Ham, the extent to which we've, I guess, deified the original digger, but at the expense of other
campaigns in the context of Anzac Day. Where does the Korean War sit? Where does the Vietnam War
sit? Where do peacekeeping efforts in East Timor fit? Where does Afghanistan fit? Where does Iraq

PAUL HAM: All the qualities that you enunciated at the beginning of this discussion are borne out
in those conflicts: courage, sacrifice, endurance, mateship. You see in Korea for example, the
Third Battalion there was - received a presidential citation, as did the battalion that fought -
the company, I should say, D Company of the Sixth Battalion that fought at Long Tan. The
presidential citation is the highest collective award that the Americans can give a foreign unit.

And you saw in Vietnam of course this hostility at the extreme end and certainly general
indifference to the returning diggers, 35 per cent of whom, approximately, were conscripts.

ALI MOORE: But we don't have the commemorations, we don't have the research, we don't have the
history books, we don't have all that we have that is focused on the First World War and the Second
World War.

PAUL HAM: Well, the history books are being written, and certainly, if I can say, my own book looks
at the Vietnam veterans in some detail. I interviewed hundreds of them. And they have experience of
an extraordinary transformation in how they're perceived, from men who were rejected or treated
carelessly and indifferent - and the politicians by their silence scapegoated these men, who were
sent to Vietnam through a series of fairly staggering political misjudgements of the region and how
it worked and how we fitted into it.

And they came back to a hostile nation and they were made to get on with it, with no debriefing or
no counselling to speak of, suffering from post-traumatic stress, no doubt many of them, and now,
only now - 1987 was a recognition of sorts, but only now we see really that they are being treated
in the same manner in the last 10 years, I'd say.

ALI MOORE: Peter Stanley, do we pay enough attention to the other theatres of war?

PETER STANLEY: No, I don't think we ever can in the sense that history exists to be written and the
more interpretation, the more argument and debate we have the better.

I would say though that there's been a tendency to try and stretch Anzac to accommodate all of the
later conflicts and forces of very different kinds, so that the present Australian Defence force
is, if you like, claiming the part of the Anzac legend, an Anzac legend which began on Gallipoli
and in the First World War here on the Western Front with a very different army, a citizens'
soldier army.

But the interesting this is that Anzac does stretch to encompass those things and people can find
ways in which they can connect with the Anzac legend through very different wars. So, those who are
returning from Iraq and now Afghanistan are finding that they have a place in Anzac commemoration
because, as Paul says, unlike the Vietnam years when conscript and regular Army soldiers were
reviled, unlike those times, now veterans are being welcomed and accepted and understood, and I
think that's a positive expression of the Anzac legend. And if that can contribute to harmony and
understanding then the Anzac legend is a good thing.

ALI MOORE: Then that probably - I mean, that leads to my last question to both of you, but also in
some ways possibly answers it.

Peter Stanley, as we head towards the centenary of the Battle of Gallipoli, what's going to happen
when all those marchers there on Anzac Day are descendants of those who were there, the original
diggers, and in the words of David Malouf, "It will be the photographs of long-dead soldiers and
their medals paraded like tribal relics." When that happens, what will Anzac Day mean then?

PETER STANLEY: Well, that's happening now. If we look at Anzac Day marches in Australia, and
especially participation in Anzac services, including here at Villers-Bretonneux, we see that
people are in fact bringing along photographs and medals. One of the members of my tour group is
wearing the identification discs of his grandfather.

So people are taking on the relics, if you like, of those who served because they still have
meaning for those people. And as long as Anzac Day has meaning for Australians, it will continue to
be celebrated in very different ways to the way it was commemorated in the 1920s. We don't see
silent streets of mourning families anymore.

People feel sadness for those who died, but mostly they didn't know them. They feel respect and
they feel sombre, but it's no longer the raw grief. So Anzac Day will change, but I think - and
you'd be foolish to predict, as we did in the '70s, that it would die. You'd be foolish now to
predict that it will die, but you wouldn't be foolish to predict that it will change.

ALI MOORE: Paul Ham, do you agree? Would you like to take a stab at how you think it will change?

PAUL HAM: I do agree that it is here to stay and I certainly support and applaud Peter's comment
about understanding the digger. We have a much greater understanding of what they experienced in a
whole range of wars in the last century, and in this century. I think it will continue.

It is now moving from what was originally a brutal reality to a grim memory to something of a quiet
commemoration like we saw in the '80s to edging in dangerous ways towards a celebration and an
expression of triumphalism. I think it will settle back down into a very sober memory of what these
men and women did. And I think that will be a wonderful way to see Anzac Day develop into something
that is more along the British and French lines, where we saw this into our national identity
rather than being exclusively, to some extent, defined by it.

ALI MOORE: Paul Ham and Peter Stanley, many thanks for talking to Lateline tonight.

PAUL HAM: Thank you very much.

WikiLeaks releases Gauntanamo prisoner assessments

WikiLeaks releases Gauntanamo prisoner assessments

Broadcast: 25/04/2011

Reporter: Ali Moore

WikiLeaks has released hundreds of secret files of prisoner assessments from the Gauntanamo Bay
prison, including those of David Hicks and Mamdouh Habib.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The WikiLeaks website has released hundreds of secret files of prisoner
assessments from the United States' Guantanamo Bay prison.

Of the 780 people detained at Guantanamo Bay since 2002, about 200 have been deemed a serious
threat to the US, while at least 150 detainees were found to be innocent of any crimes.

The files include those of former Australian detainees Mamdouh Habib and David Hicks, who was
convicted of supplying material support for terrorism. They describe Hicks as a dedicated Al-Qaeda
fighter and accuse Mr Habib of being a money courier for terrorism.

Mamdouh Habib was released without charge in 2005.

STEPHEN KENNY, LAWYER: I think that a lot of the material across all of the statements that have
been released there, a lot of that material is inaccurate and is simply the allegations that are
made against these people

ALI MOORE: 172 people remain at the prison. The Obama Government says the leaked documents do not
necessarily represent its views on prisoner assessments.

Syrian troops fire on anti-government activists

Syrian troops fire on anti-government activists

Broadcast: 25/04/2011

Reporter: Anne Barker

Clashes between government forces and anti-government activists or rebels continue in Syria, Yemen
and Libya.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Syria has closed its borders with Jordan and begun what appears to be a
crackdown on the flashpoint city of Daraa.

There are reports of tanks on the streets and snipers on Government buildings in the town.

In Libya, there's also been heavy shelling in the city of Misrata after Government troops withdrew

Middle East correspondent Anne Barker reports.

ANNE BARKER, REPORTER: It's been a bad couple of days for Colonel Gaddafi. Overnight, NATO struck
the Gaddafi compound in Tripoli, destroying three buildings containing offices and a reception hall
for visiting dignitaries. The Government is defiant, saying if NATO is genuine about wanting peace
in Libya, it needs to stop bombing and start talking.

MOUSSA IBRAHIM, LIBYAN GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: Come down on the ground and talk to us. Stop the air
bombardment, because it's killing people, it's making the situation worse and it's not helping

ANNE BARKER: Yesterday Government forces withdrew from the besieged city of Misrata, although
there's some debate about the circumstances.

MOUSSA IBRAHIM: As our army was withdrawing from Misrata, it came under attack by the rebels. The
Army fought back, but continued its withdrawal from the city. The tribal chiefs are, as we speak,
moving in with their tribes into the outskirts of Misrata and they are negotiating peace with the
inhabitants of the city and the rebels.

ANNE BARKER: That version of events is contested by the rebels.

not actually retreat on their own from Misrata; they were in fact pushed back by the rebels.

ANNE BARKER: Either way, if it eases conditions for the residents of the country's third largest
city, it will be welcome.

KHALED ABU FALGAH, HEAD OF MISRATA MEDICAL COMMITTEE: Last 24 hours was one of the hardest and the
saddest days in - since 65 days. Yesterday we lost 28 young people, 28 deaths, and we have around
85 injured persons.

ANNE BARKER: Among the injured were two Government soldiers, now under guard, but being treated for
injuries. One from Gaddafi's home town of Sirte says morale among the Government troops is low and
they've been misled.

ALI MISBAH, CAPTURED GOVERNMENT SOLDIER: They told us that we were fighting against Al-Qaeda
insurgents. They told us that these people were controlling Misrata, not allowing normal people to
move. But I have come and I have seen with my own eyes that this is not true.

ANNE BARKER: For the residents of Misrata, the last two months have been tough. Food supplies are
short and queues are long.

JEMAL MOHAMMAD, SHOPPER: There is a shortage of everything. When we wake up, we wonder how we are
going to get bread for our families. It takes up to half a day to get our supplies.

ANNE BARKER: But help is on the way. Aid ships have docked in the port city, unloading food,
medical supplies and ambulances.

In Yemen, the anti-establishment revolt is also gathering pace. In this demonstration in the
capital Sana'a, crowds including women and children were ringed by military units that had defected
to join and protect them.

Despite president Ali Abdullah Saleh saying he'll accept a Gulf Council proposal which would see
him stand aside in the next 30 days and elections held two months later, many don't trust him. They
were on the streets again yesterday and show no sign of leaving until Saleh goes.

And in Syria, the regime of president Bashir al-Assad has launched an attack on Daraa, where
anti-Government protests began five weeks ago. Tanks are on the streets and there are reports of
snipers on Government buildings. If correct, it shows that president al-Assad has no intention of
handing over any power, despite signing into law some concessions last week.

Anne Barker, Lateline.

Australian sentenced on drug charges in Bali

Australian sentenced on drug charges in Bali

Broadcast: 25/04/2011

Reporter: Ali Moore

Australian man Michael Sacatides has been sentenced to 18 years in prison for attempting to import
1.7 kilograms of methamphetamines into Bali.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: An Australian man has been sentenced to 18 years in prison for attempting to
import 1.7 kilograms of methamphetamines into Bali.

The judges in the case said Michael Sacatides was caught with an extraordinary quantity of

The 18-year sentence they imposed is two years longer than the prosecution requested.

Although Sacatides has maintained his innocence throughout the trial, the judges say his actions
have undermined Indonesia's effort to stamp out the drug trade.

The drugs were found concealed in the lining of his suitcase when he arrived in Bali from Bangkok
in October last week.

He has one week to consider launching an appeal.

Now to the weather. That's all from us. If you want to look back at tonight's discussion with Peter
Stanley and Paul Ham, or review any of 'Lateline''s stories or transcripts, you can visit our web
site and also follow us on Twitter and Facebook. See you again tomorrow. Goodnight.