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the inside of your house. Cassie's never seen Do you... wanna show her? I don't know. You want to show her? Yeah. You did this. ? You're my friend ? We'll stick together till the end for a buddy to do ? What else is there ? But stick around with you? ? And I know it's hard ? To be like you are ? I want you know I won't fall apart ? I'll be there ? And I want you to know I'll be with you. ? ? Oh Closed Captions by CSI ? Theme music (Applause) to a special Artscape forum Good evening, and welcome National Cultural Policy. on the Federal Government's Government launched Creative Nation, Exactly 17 years after the Keating a new cultural policy. we're now to have capitalises on new technologies, This is one that the Government hopes Indigenous cultures, but also protects more access for more people, builds audiences and creates the Government says. The Federal Arts Minister Simon Crean a discussion paper on this, has released to hear what people think. and he said he wants

is going to speak So tonight, creative Australia and the Minister is here to listen. Opposition to join us tonight, We also did invite the Federal no-one was available. but, unfortunately, to kick this idea around But we do have a distinguished panel an audience of artists, musicians, and we're delighted also to have to provide expert commentary for you. directors and administrators Our panel this evening are, cultural economist and author Professor David Throsby, Need A Cultural Policy? of Does Australia ARIA Award-winning musician, Clare Bowditch, board member of Music Victoria of Australia also. and she's on the Music Council director and writer and broadcaster. Marcus Westbury is the festival award-winning playwright Wesley Enoch is with us, the Queensland Theatre Company. and Artistic Director of media consultant, Sue Cato with us as well, and an avid collector herself. member of several arts boards our panel this evening. Please welcome MAN: Thank you. (Applause) Honourable Simon Crean, And, of course, the and Regional Development Minister for the Arts the Honourable Kate Lundy, is with us tonight, as is also to the Prime Minister. Parliamentary Secretary We're glad you could join us. Both of you, welcome this evening. to be involved as well. And we want you at home our discussion tonight You can tweet on using the hashtag NCP. outlined four key goals So the Government's that they want to consider. They may or may not, however, for our guests this evening. be the most important issues So let's get straight to them. is the first question to ask. 'Why an arts policy now?' I guess Marcus Westbury, do we need one now? Yeah, look, I think we do. for a long time has been I think the problem been on autopilot. that we have effectively well before Creative Nation, I think going back Australia has, been involved in arts and culture, to the extent the Government has because it's what it does. has been doing what it does and asked the question, No-one has really stood back What's the point? 'What are we trying to do? What's the bigger picture here?' of our institutions, structures And the world has changed - a lot the arts in this country and entities that administer the '70s or the '50s, were designed in an era a very long time ago.

a government to do that for us? David Throsby, why do we need doing what they want anyway. You can stop an artist from No, of course. They're driven to do just that. do have a role in this. But I think governments the means by which The governments are really can be facilitated. the expression of our culture about the current situation is I think one of the things arts policy from the past, that, when we think about has been an arts policy essentially cultural policy and nothing much more. In the past 10, 15, 20 years or so, things have moved quite a lot, interest in, for example, and now there's much more of the arts. the economic contribution cultural policy, as I see it, One of the purposes of the and culture right across the board, is to raise the profile of the arts policy, industry development, in education, in health, foreign employment and so on. in regional development, Wesley Enoch, do you agree? consistency of approach. Yeah, I think it's also about is very piecemeal at the moment. I think a lot of Indigenous funding and cultural funding, When you think about arts development or tourism, a lot of it's also in economic to create a consistency so the idea of trying both State and Federal and local, throughout government, would be very interesting. I think a policy could do that. Clare Bowditch, as the practising artist on our panel,

when was the last time you sat at a keyboard and considered the significance of a cultural policy? I actually think it's a fantastic discussion to be having and I'm someone who directly benefits from such a discussion, so I'm grateful for it. When you say 'directly benefits', do you mean materially? Yeah, that's one point. I'm part of the live music industry. A recent Ernst & Young report said that my industry alone contributes $1.2 billion to our economy, and yet the average artist still earns $19,000 a year - a live musician - and that's before expenses, that's before tax, and if you go to Centrelink, we still don't have 'creative industries' as a tick-box. We don't even recognise it as a legitimate career. That's why we need this discussion. Sue Cato, what do you think is needed now? We need an understanding of the new technologies, the new social make-up in the country

and really, the new demands and how people of all ages actually want to participate in art and have art to them, and it is a very different world now. It is, and interestingly, it seems that the key goals that the Government's outlined, that it wants all of us to consider in putting together new policy, seem to take in virtually all those areas you mentioned, Sue Cato. Let's address them in order. Goal number one, the Government says, is ensuring that Government support reflects diversity and supports Indigenous culture. That's got to be something close to your heart. Absolutely. I think it's also about a great social project. I think national cultural policies provide a platform to express our aspirations as a country. I think back to the '70s and '80s and where there was an unofficial cultural policy, which was about the Australian voice on our stages, on our screens, etc., how we represented ourselves. It feels like the aspirations of our country can be expressed through this cultural policy about how Indigenous history, Indigenous cultures are expressed. I just want to pick up on one element of that, because Hetti Perkins, the leading Indigenous art curator, she's recently quit the Art Gallery of New South Wales over this very issue, seeing that the mainstreaming, as she put it, of Indigenous art hasn't worked. I want to go to Liz Ann Macgregor from the Museum of Contemporary Art. Has mainstreaming been bad for artists and viewers of art? This is a subject that needs to be debated more. It's very important for us, and it's very important that our artists talk about it, because a lot of Indigenous artists that we work with, for example - Tracey Moffatt, Destiny Deacon, Fiona Foley, all very highly respected artists - they want to be seen among their peers, both Australian and international. I suspect it will come down to it's not either-or, but I'd hate to see the mainstream institutions being let off the hook, and thinking that somehow Indigenous art was somewhere else and not within the core of their institutions. Did you want to comment, Wesley? In that whole idea that, you know, I'm the first Indigenous artistic director of a major theatre company in this country, I would hate to think that that option wasn't open to me as an artist. I think for me that there's... What we often have is individuals who rise through their talent, as artists always do. But this whole idea that we haven't got a vertical integration about how training happens, how support happens - we often just pick the individuals out and I think we need all those options, as Liz Ann was saying. David, does our current arts policy fail to recognise diversity? Well, it does, to some extent, but I think it can do more. We should remember that Australia is now a signatory to the United Nations Convention on Cultural Diversity, which came into force in 2007, and that places an obligation on our Government as a signatory to the convention to raise the profile of the arts and culture and particularly to concentrate on diversity. I think there's two aspects to that - the multicultural nature of Australian society, which is constantly evolving and which constantly feeds and is nourished by our arts, but also the diversity of the ways in which we express ourselves in the arts, and there's a widening range of art forms and arts that's brought on by new technology. But that diversity sort of has diversity within it, doesn't it? It's not just cultural now - it's in all sorts of art forms. I think, thinking about the diversity, is that you have this incredible fragmentation - pluralism. Diversity is. It's not a discussion about whether diversity should be or whether it's a goal or an aim or something we want to make happen. Diversity is, and I think that, as you asked earlier, is it a prescriptive thing when you try and mandate diversity? I don't think that's really the way at which we should come at this. I think it's about legitimising and recognising diversity, it's about validating the diversity of cultures, art forms, approaches, spaces, places, ways in which people will come at art and validating and supporting that. I did want to go to Kathy Keele from the Australia Council. Just wondering if it's been harder or easier in the last few years to make sure you're funding programs of diversity or that are truly representative of the way Australia is now. It's always a challenge, because, by its very definition, the arts are dynamic, constantly changing. Then you add in broadband and digital culture and the massive amount of permutations that happen are evident in our applications. The art form boards are dealing with brand-new art forms, developing art forms, collaborations, all kinds of things. So it is a challenge, but it's also an opportunity. This National Cultural Policy gives us an opportunity

to really talk about not hardwiring in talking to each and every community, but how we can constantly keep up with the changes, which we want to encourage. I want to return to the Minister, Simon Crean, and give you an opportunity to talk about why this particular emphasis. Why is this goal number one in your policy paper? I think because diversification is the challenge of our age. Diversify or die. That's the truth of it. Now, the arts have understood it. Again, if you think of the arts and culture, they are two important determinants of something that we hold very strongly. One is our social values, because arts and culture is a means by which people express themselves better, understand other cultures better, work as a team together. Do all those sorts of things that underpin values of tolerance - diversity, acceptance and inclusion. So it's a social investment that we're making here, but it's also the case that nations that invest in their arts and culture are also more productive nations, because it drives that innovative edge. I want to briefly touch on something which is also part of this key goal in the policy paper, which is about building audiences. That must be a challenge, but there must be many, many new ways of getting to do that right now, particularly with a theatre company like yours. I think it's a balancing act, always, and I think there was a time when we thought that artists could not be economically responsible, that we couldn't look at the balancing act, and I think, even programming - I'm about to launch the QTC program and going, 'I think Indigenous art's really important. We're going to invest about $1 million in Indigenous arts at that company' - that's a big investment. I still have to do a Shakespeare and I need to look at a David Williamson to look at that balancing act. I can be responsible in that way. I think, to find new audiences, you need to look at the diversity of the communities already. I know that there are about 500,000 New Zealanders living in Queensland, and, anecdotally, that's economic and environmental refugees from the South Pacific who have come through New Zealand and have settled in Queensland. And we go, 'Well, how do we talk to that audience?' How do we say, 'Your state theatre company is going to respond to and reflect your needs as well?' And they're some of the questions I'm asking. And you could get a whole new audience that way as well. I think a starved audience is a hungry audience. (Laughter) Let's move on then to the second key goal that the Government's outlined in this policy paper, and that's encouraging the use of emerging technologies, and to get more people to participate in arts and culture. Clare Bowditch, tell us about an experience you had recently. This is about how technology allowed you to jam over great distances. Well, it didn't allow us to jam, but it nearly allowed us to jam... (Laughter) Did the system jam? There was a bit of a jam. So look at me now - I am not just an artist, I am apparently a future content provider. That's what we are now, as artists. Recently, I was at a Music Council of Australia conference and we connected up with the Manhattan School of Music and took a masterclass - on September 11, of all dates - took a masterclass with some of the students and a teacher there, and it occurred to me that, in the future, we will be able to jam in real time. At the moment, there's still a three-second delay, which is slightly awkward. (Laughter) But, in the future, that's one of the things that the National Broadband Network will potentially allow. But what else it will allow - it will allow us the opportunity to create excellent content. If the internet is the book, we're providing the words inside. Let artists make their own stories up - just fund them to make excellent work. That's the opportunity we have. That's what we're talking about here with this particular goal, aren't we, Marcus? We're talking about the NBN and just what riches and glories it's supposed to bring to artists. I think it's a really big part of it. It's not just about the technology - it's about the way the technology's enabling different types of people to create different types of things. At the moment, our arts and culture policy structures are very top-down. They assume that culture happens in a few big, centralised institutions and kind of filters down and out from that. The reality is that you've got this incredible proliferation of cultural production. In fields as diverse as folk art and photography, design, crafts. Blogs, games, video games. The things that are directly related to technology, the things where people can just connect their interests over the technology, and it's this explosion. So how do you manage that? How do we support that? Why does it need to be managed? I don't know a single young artist who needs to be encouraged in order to use the new technology. Part of it's about encouragement, part of it's about removing barriers. Part of it is recognising that our systems that are designed to support people in a top-down way actually blunt the enthusiasm or passions of people working in a very bottom-up way. Ensuring they have venues to play in, ways to connect, physical manifestations - places to bring what they make to. You use the word 'young' then, and I think that's really telling. You don't find many older artists in Australia. We actually don't know how to treat mid-career or late-career artists. We have no idea. Excuse the French. I didn't say it, but I thought it. We have no... (Mouths word) ..idea. We don't know how... Basically what happens is this, yes, young artists, we need to encourage them, love them, nurture them, help them create. But what is the point of doing that if we don't then allow them to continue their careers? Because young bloggers making great, great content for the internet then start having children, then start having needs, bills to pay and so on, and you find this incredible cultural heritage disappears because they have no way of sustaining themselves. Even the basic idea of funding one of those incredible blogs, like Dress, Memory or Design Files. If you can give those kids ten grand to do ten blogs and they've created fantastic content and rich, beautiful stories, rather than having to rely on advertising and so on. Allow them to grow their microbusinesses. I'd like to hear from Gavin Artz, from the Australian Network for Art and Technology. Tell us that story you know about Steve Jobs from Apple. He's got a very enlightened take on how there's that connection between art and technology and financial success. Steve Jobs very clearly linked Apple's success to their ability to bring arts and humanities to technology... Just because he wanted to ruthlessly exploit them, or for something else? No, it's this sense that, as technology's becoming an extension of us, it needs to be much more deeply culturally sympathetic if people are going to use it. It's a really sensible business decision to be introducing culture. But, also, culture is an innovation process. It's about people - the artists start playing with technology and they apply it to themselves and their family and communities. As soon as you apply technology to people, it's innovation. Wesley, would you like to comment on that? It's the place that risk is possible. Suddenly, we have a virtual presence through what we're carrying around. What does that mean for a theatre company, say? What kind of challenges does that mean in the next ten years? Our younger audiences are going to be asking different ways of engaging and I think a cultural policy is a way of stimulating that conversation as well. Ruth Smiles, the Government says this particular section is all about access. rural and regional Australia, That brings in, of course, What do you need? which is your organisation. to be able to do that. Well, we certainly need the NBN talking about for a very long time One of the things that we have been is the amount of investment regional communities in the arts. that actually does go into could probably get We do think that the Government a more productive outcome in regional communities. if they invested more to be unkind to regional Australia, I hear this a lot, and I don't mean major and minor, but it seems like every company, to get out of metropolitan areas. is focusing a great deal on trying State and Federal budgets about this. There is a particular focus, both in Is it still not enough? communities produce But it's also about what regional and the artists living there. to regional communities. It's not just about taking stuff Professor Stuart Cunningham I want to ask for Creative Industries, from the Centre need help innovating, though? do such arts organisations The National Broadband Network Minister, Simon Crean, has been called by our of cultural infrastructure 'the most important piece Australia has ever seen.' for culture. So it's like the Snowy River Scheme places where you The metro areas are quite reasonably. can consume culture 200% - 500% dearer It then gets to be between in regional Australia, 1,300% dearer in Birdsville. and it bottoms out at arts and cultural participation It's going to be critical that is seen as a crucial part Broadband Network in the regions. of the rollout of the National wanted to say something in particular Alright. David Throsby, I know you about the technology aspect. an effect right across the board. Just that, new technologies have which new technologies There's also ways in cultural institutions. give access to the major and virtual exhibitions For example, through virtual museums process of being developed now and one thing which is in the is satellite transmission to cinemas of live performances from theatres. well-established in other countries. This is something which is out here in Australia, As it's rolled Company and other companies and I know the Sydney Theatre or starting to do it in theatre. are doing it in theatre Minister said about investments - It needs... and it's rather like the It needs seed funding. strategic investment. Companies can't do it on their own. it can be self-sustaining. Once it gets going, Sue Cato. at this stage It's probably important all levels of government - to recognise that Federal, State and local... the MCA redevelopment, Sydney have obviously funded those facilities now. and it's got exactly their phases and forms, Artists, in all front-run the use of technology. who are actually inventing They're the guys and finding new ways of doing it. and pushing the boundaries Telstra and others are coming to They're the guys that Apple and What can you do with it?' to say, 'This is what we've got. Every way you look at it, after the artists, the artists and looking taking the odd risk. supporting innovation, to get 10 out of 10. You know, you're not going Part of that is getting it wrong. I've just taken a role directing Electronic Art in Sydney in 2013. the International Symposium for As part of that, I've looked through the back program of this event of artists experimenting with technology down through its 20-something years now. And on one level you can look at that and you can see consumer developments, things people play with in iPhones. You can see experiments with GPS and locative media and maps and all sorts of things, 5, 10 years before you see them in the popular media, before they become ubiquitous, they become part of our lives. On another level, you see these fantastic dead ends where artists explore these things that went nowhere, and you never quite know what's going to work. You've got to embrace that a bit. You've got to allow for some degree of risk and experimentation, AND a process to actually find what does work and take it to the next level. I want to ask Tamara Winikoff about access and copyright, which we've managed to elegantly avoid, because if we get bogged down in that, we'll never leave this room. Tamara Winikoff from the National Association for the Visual Arts. Let's just leave it to community access - when it comes to community access, should at least that be free of copyright constraints if the idea of access is to be achieved, as the Government says that it wants to in this part of the policy? I think this is one of the big tensions of our moment in history, because, on the one hand, everybody in the digital environment has an attitude of mind and it seems fair that things should be free and accessible and ideas and knowledge should be shared amongst all of us freely. He does need to make money as well. If we're going to change the copyright laws then there has to be some mechanism for people who are devoting a lot of time and energy to being creative to have some recompense. And it's not just money - it's also the recognition of how we value that kind of contribution. I want to raise copyright as a kind of old-world view and the whole idea that there's a lot of stuff now where musicians go, 'Here's all my music for free but you pay $200-$300 to see me live,' and valuing the analogue in a digital world is a very interesting debate. Let's move on to the third key goal that the Government wants us to consider, and that's supporting excellence and world-class endeavour, and getting Australian stories told here and overseas. I want to go straight to the audience. James Strong is with us, the Chairman of the Australia Council. We're already pretty good at doing that, aren't we? If you judge invitations for Australian artists, whether they be in orchestras or theatre companies or individual, small musical groups, the invitations they get to perform internationally certainly do bear that out. Sue Cato, what's the best role of government in this particular area? Quite frankly, government itself, nothing, 'cause it shouldn't be picking winners and making programming decisions. Government's job is to facilitate the likes of the Australia Council and other appropriate fora to be able to make decisions about where excellence is, and that could quite frankly be young, emerging artists. And allowing them to go and network with other young artists and other creative places. One thing we have to get beyond is the notion that excellence is somehow or other elitist or something that's not possible. Marcus? I'm all for excellence, as long as it's not code for elitism. There are many excellences. I don't understand our problem with the word 'elite'. I have a problem with elitism - the idea that there's a subset of the arts that you draw out and say, 'That's particularly excellent and that's what we have to support' at the expense of... What do you think of particularly? In the current system, we have a very top-down, major performing arts company centric model and it's one that I think serves up a particular kind of excellence for a particular audience with a particular definition of excellence. And I think they're pretty white, middle class and ageing. I'd like to say that you never ask Cathy Freeman to run slowly. There's a sense that we have a pride in elite athletic behaviours, that we should have the same thing with artists. And that could also be in process as well as outcome. Very quickly, David Throsby. I really don't like this sort of notion that there is something which we call 'elite' and which is somehow or other segregated. There is a whole continuum here about... But excellence is something which we strive for, whether we're a musician, a theatre person, a blogger, whatever it is. But let me go to a company which has, in my view, done very well in doing just that - telling those Australian stories as this area aims to do, both here and overseas, and perhaps is a subject of your attack on elitism. Adrian Collette is here from Opera Australia. Care to defend yourself against this egregious attack, Adrian? (Laughter) In telling Australian stories, we had Brett Dean's opera, Bliss, based on Peter Carey's novel. After two successful seasons here, it went to the Edinburgh Festival as one of the key events of the festival. I think we were engrossed in it. We expected the response to be strong, but we were blown away. But it really was a fantastic example of Australian stories resonating internationally, which should also be a measure of what we do, and it certainly goes to excellence. There are a lot of other ways, so if the opera company has us doing the Ring Cycle for the first time in its history, there is immediate recognition of that internationally and we have co-producers in North America and Europe to help us do it. And what they're responding to is not Wagner's Ring Cycle - they're actually curious about the engagement of artists in this part of the world with a significant part of the canon. Marcus, too dead white male for you? No, not at all - I think that's a legitimate part of the spectrum. I think that's a legitimate part of what we should be doing. My concern is the spectrum skews too heavy. Opera Australia gets the funding of 400 small companies. Sue Cato? When I've been lucky enough to be at the grand performances of Opera Australia, and then I go and see a Pinchgut performance, the majesty of Opera Australia, sometimes I wonder, while I respect look at reallocation. I wonder if we do need to sometimes is to get a bigger pie Of course, the ideal thing rather than to change the slicing. is Pinchgut any better... I should imagine, but a whole whack of more money? Is it still Pinchgut if it gets I guess so. Isn't it something else, Wesley? I think for me, it is really about maintaining our culture, a lot of our money is spent against the demography, and how often do we test it to have that there? against public will is an opportunity I think a National Cultural Policy to ask those questions again, of cutting up the existing pie?' and to say, 'Are there other ways at issues we think, as a nation, To look at diversity issues, looking will take us forward. if we were to ask those questions I think we might be quite surprised that, in fact, things like opera, might not necessarily go, even though people think it's important that we have opera company, an international-standard theatre companies. and international-standard that excellence and access And this notion is often put are somehow opposing things - excellence, as we do with the opera, the idea that if you fund we're somehow inhibiting access. I want to go to Sue Donnelly Performing Arts Group from the Australian Major has to include recognition because this conversation of the role that private money plays, is doing its fair share, and whether the private sector about those top-of-the-tree particularly when you're talking How are they doing? performing arts companies. sector is contributing, I think the private that we've looked at, and certainly in terms of the work 13% of the turnover they contribute about that we represent. for all the companies And in the period of ten years has gone up by about 80%, the private sector's support which is ahead of CPI. And that's great that it's gone up, a lot of access projects and they're funding and things like that, and education projects to get private sector support but, interestingly, it's very hard that companies depend on for core operations and that other programs derive from. Interestingly, in that same period of time, the Government funding for the core projects has gone down by about 2%. Do you have a sense of what the private sector might want to see, in particular, from this policy that's been put together that might actually deal with a little of what you're talking about? There are things like taxation reform that could apply. There's suggestions in terms of having a matching funds scheme that the Government would initiate, that they would provide a matching amount of money for contributions. Marcus, the Government says it wants to provide incentives to allow organisations to get to the next level, and I wanted Wesley to consider this as well. What do you think they might be? I think what gets interesting is how you start providing incentives for artists, for the private sector or for the economy to provide practical opportunities for artists at the smaller level. So I've been working on the Renew Newcastle project where we have been working with private sector property owners to provide otherwise empty spaces available to artists. And the tax system actively works against that, you know? The compliance systems actively work against that. There's a whole bunch of other strategies that actively discourage that kind of private-public engagement. Wesley, what would you need to take your company to the next level? Often, we've got a very internal view of how we run companies. We go, 'How do we put it all together?' But how do we look at crowdsourcing? I'm working on a project at the moment with the Sydney Festival - we put it out there to the industry, and we've raised $240,000. So you get a sense that, if you actually talk to your potential audience about your ideas, you could actually get little mum-and-dad investors, if you like, to come and support your work. So let's continue the dialogue with our audiences, not just say, 'Here's our show, we've made it already, now buy a ticket.' Build a relationship. The Federal Government's fourth key goal in this discussion paper about a new cultural policy is to, it says, increase the arts' contribution to society and also the economy. I want to go straight to the minister, Simon Crean, on this one. Minister, is this another way of saying making the arts pay for themselves? No, it's not at all. It's the virtuous circle. Just take a couple of the themes that have come up here - the link to education.

The two passions that young kids have at school are sport or the arts. If we can find a way through pathways that connect to where the training can take them, the elite artist, or whether they become the stage production person, it's the industry that's supportive of the art form. And from that, whole lots of new operations emerge.

Broadband is the other important thing, because if what we can do is take all this interactive stuff that people have talked about before, and develop content, you're really developing a whole new industry out there of people who can apply their creative talents in a different way than just a performance. Sue Cato, you wanted to say something. It's interesting. We do have an Australian Institute of Sport. Yep. What about an Australian Institute of the Arts? Can I hear it for that idea? That's a wonderful idea. I'm into it. We do. We have NIDA... MARCUS: There's a whole set of structures out there. Marcus, hang on one sec. What I'm talking about, in absolute recognition that there's all sorts of training going on in all sorts of different grades in all sorts of different places, but if you actually think about apprenticeships, whether it's with the major companies and whether there's a place where actually there is particular skilling that people can get... Traditionally, that's HOW we trained artists. Companies, groups of artists, would have apprentices, would actually look at all that stuff. We've actually handed over our training of artists to institutions, and maybe it's time for companies and senior artists to bring them back in. And that's where a work-for-dole program that includes artists could be really handy. Let's move on to education, which we've mentioned in passing, and this has to be central to anything that's discussed in terms of a national policy. We know that the national arts curriculum is still being worked on, it's taken quite a while, I think, since it was raised as crucial at the 20-20 summit. Senator Kate Lundy is here with us. What's taking you so long? Well, the good news is that Minister Garrett was successful in his representations to the education minister's council meeting to include arts in the phase two of the Australian Curriculum development program. So we've got a comprehensive system in place that's looking at the whole national curriculum, and I'm thrilled to see that arts are a part of that. And I think it reinforces the point that when we talk about a national cultural policy, Minister Crean's providing the leadership on it, but it's a whole of government effort. It's about the education portfolio. It is about the regional services portfolio, it is about our economy, our exports, our cultural content, it's all of these things. I think it's also pretty hard, at least hard for me, to sit here and talk about this and about unique Australian content and not acknowledge the fact that the ABC has cut back some of its unique arts production, with the axing of its weekly arts program and the like. So I'd like to know from some of the audience. Rhys Muldoon, in your view, are we, the ABC, letting the side down? Well, obviously, yes. How badly? Oh, pretty badly, because... I consider... you know... If the ABC doesn't do it, who's going to? Religion's gonna come through there, science is gonna come through there, arts is gonna come through there, all of those things that no other bastard would touch, we have to touch. And, um... much as I... And I should put in a little caveat that I do consider Mark Scott the best leader that the ABC's ever had. (Laughter) I mean that. I'm not just doing it because I want a job. No, you're sucking up to the boss, but that's alright. But it's actually true. But I'm saying... But Mark's gone news-current affairs angle and all that stuff, and it's just about balance. I say you don't CUT the show, you just make a better show. I want to hear from the panel on this and I want a right of reply from Mark Scott. Marcus? I know that one of the things on the agenda here is around outsourcing production. I've made outsourced arts productions for the ABC. So I can't condemn that. What I would say, though, is that you can't afford to lose the resources. I'm up for a debate about where to invest them, what the best return are, whether we're doing it in the right way or not. But I think the ABC provides a unique amount of resources into contextualising and connecting Australians with their arts and I think that's not something to lose. Wesley? I think if you take anything away from an artist we find another way to make it happen. Why doesn't the Queensland Theatre Company get Liz Anne Macgregor and I to do a review show... know, that we fly around the country and we talk about shows. That's a pitch. (Laughter) Send the pilot. Everybody's using this conversation this evening to pitch for the next part of their career. It's extraordinary. Sue Cato. It is interesting when you look at the ABC charter, and the simple fact is the best arts producers, the best arts journalists, the best art forums have been in the ABC. So if the ABC is not creating an environment for these people to train and excel, yes, it can happen outside, but it's still a loss. I feel it. Mark Scott, it's a pretty difficult time to be talking about arts policy when we're actually cutting on-air arts content. Yeah, but we're investing in a lot too, Virginia. I think we've gotta look at the full picture of the ABC's performance across radio and TV and online. We're recording 600 live concerts this year on Classic FM. Triple J Unearthed has 30,000 artists who've uploaded their music through online. We are going to invest more money for arts in prime time. A program has ended, and that, of course, generates sadness. But we are investing more arts programming in prime time where we hope that arts programming will reach a larger audience. But not every decision we make will make everybody happy. Let's summarise where we are so far. We've spooled through those four key goals that the Federal Government says it wants to consider as part of putting together a new arts policy. Simon Crean, our minister this evening, I think, for many, this is really just going to come down to an issue of money, of funding, whether there's more funding for the arts in all of its diversity. Otherwise all of this will just be a lot of blah blah blah blah. Will there be more money? Well, I can go through the pitch of saying we're in tight fiscal circumstances. Take that as read. I don't think you can do it without money, but the truth is, if we can also utilise that which is spent now in recurrent money, I think we can do, can make some important inroads. Now, I'm not trying to say that for the purposes of avoiding the other question. We've got a budget process to go through, and I will be fighting in there for money. Now, there are plenty of other ways in which we can do it more cleverly, more effectively,

and I've picked up a number of ideas tonight, so thank you for all the contributions. But be bold in terms of what you're putting forward. Do you believe you have the Treasurer's ear on this? Do you have the Treasurer's support in trying to secure more funding for the arts? I believe that I have strong support across the Government, not just the Treasurer. Sue Cato. I would suggest right now... It's great having all this work on this cultural policy, but I'd like to actually see politicians get some backbone. And when people actually push the boundaries rather than politicians pandering to the shock jocks and everyone else who's raving, to actually say, 'Artists are artists, let 'em be.' Wesley Enoch? As artists, I think, if we want something to happen, we should go about making it happen. I've just recently been part of the National Indigenous Theatre Forums, where we start to say, 'This is what we want,' and being surprised at how people come back with money, with programs responding to what we're asking for, and going, 'Oh, my God, we can actually do this.' So part of me goes if we empower ourselves and speak in a loud and articulate way, we will be heard. Marcus Westbury, do you get a sense that artists will be seizing this opportunity now to do just that? I think artists are seizing opportunities everywhere. They've got no choice. The great potential of this cultural policy process is to meet them halfway. I think there's a lot of processes out there that haven't met them halfway very effectively. If you can take that initiative, that drive, that passion, that's out there in the community and can find as many ways as possible to channel it and support it and help it go to where it wants to go... It's not just about money. Money's one of the things you need but it's not always what you need. David Throsby, do you think this one might be very different from previous policies before? I hope so. It has all the potential to do that. Because one of the things which we don't really understand is how much support there is for the arts - and this includes organisations like the ABC - in the community at large, which is not able to be expressed through any market processes, but which is there, and which can be manifested in terms of their willingness to see taxes spent on this. Clare Bowditch? There's no point in encouraging emerging artists if we don't have an idea of how to have a mature creative society and appreciation for the arts. So if we don't know how to appreciate mid-career and so on and the idea of legacy, then there's no hope. So I think it starts with education. Well, Minister, I dare say you've got enough material this evening for several years of policies. Your challenge, I guess, now is just to stay in government long enough to actually implement them. I've got no doubt about that. We'll see how you go. Minister Crean, thanks so much for attending. And, remember, the cut-off for feedback to the Government is October 21 for this policy paper. Thanks to our wonderful audience this evening and thanks also especially to our terrific panel. Please thank them - David Throsby, Clare Bowditch, Marcus Westbury, Wesley Enoch and Sue Cato. Thank you. (Applause) And you can watch an extended version of this discussion at And do continue the conversation on this important policy. You can use the Twitter hashtag NCP. I'm Virginia Trioli. Thank you for watching this evening. Goodnight. Close Captions by CSI This Program is Captioned

Live. Tonight - the big

release, an Israeli soldier

freed in exchange for over

1,000 Palestinian prisoners. TRANSLATION: They were 5 long

years and I always thought the

day would come when I would be

freed and not kept captive. It

may have taken a long time but

it finally happened.

Good evening, welcome to

Lateline, I'm Ali Moore. As we

go to air tonight a single

Israeli soldier is back with

his family after being held

captive in Gaza for more than 5

years. An hundreds of

Palestinian prisoners, some

convicted of murdering

Israelis, have been released

from his Israeli jails. Israel

has paid a high price for its

first soldier in decades to be

released alive. Exchanging

1,027 Palestinians for one

Gilad Shalit. It's an

extraordinary bay for both

sides of the peace process but

it's questionable whether it

will have any impact at all on

the now stalled peace efforts.

To look at what today's

historic events mean we'll be

Juned from Jerusalem by David Landau. First our other

headlines. The federal intervention in the Northern

Territory likely to continue

because the Gillard Government

says it's what Aboriginal

people want. Melbourne gangland

figure Tony Mokbel attempts to

change his plea on drug

trafficking charges to not

guilty. And the next 24 hours

critical for the 'Rena', stuck

fast on a reef in New Zealand's

Bay of Plenty. The Israeli

soldier Gilad Shalit is free

and says he hopes his release

leads to renewed peace talks between Israel and the

Palestinians. Celebrations are

under way in both Israel and

Gaza after Hamas swapped Sergeant Shalit for 1,000

Palestinian prisoners, some of

whom will be exiled. The

25-year-old is Israeli army ser

gent was captured in a

cross-border raid in 2006 hen

when he was 19. He's now been

flown to an air force base in

Israel where he will see his

parents for the first time in 5

years. It's an image his family and supporters have been

waiting to see for more than 5

years. Gilad Shalit back among

Israelis and heading home. The

staff sergeant in the Israeli

army was captured by Hamas

militants near the Gaza border

in June 2006. Now he's free following an

Egyptian-negotiated 1 for 1,000

prisoner swap. A short time ago

Gilad Shalit gave his first

interview to Egyptian State television.

TRANSLATION: They were 5 long

years and I always thought the

day could woman where - would

come where I would be freed and

not kept captive. While Gilad

Shalit's family and supporters

are celebrating Israeli opinion

polls say up to 80% of the

population approve of the deal.

Not everyone is happy.

TRANSLATION: Gilad Shalit must

be brought home but he should

have been brought home in a different way. I'm happy for

the Shalit family but I'm very

worried for the people of

Israel because the message is

that Jewish blood is shed in

vain. There have been a number

of legal appeals to prevent this exchange from going ahead.

The latest was just yesterday.

Most have been brought by the

families of victims of Hamas

attacks. Public sentiment was

always largely with Gilad

Shalit. For gi Gilad Shalit

became a symbol for value for

friendship and for the fact

that we should not leave anyone

behind us. In Gaza and the West

Bank Palestinians are also

celebrating. This convoy of

trucks carrying the first 477

prisoners left Israeli jails

early in the morning. Some went

to the Fatah-controlled West

Bank, but most were transferred

to Gaza. There they were

welcomed by an honour guard and

Hamas leader.

TRANSLATION: We want to tell

the world that we're oppressed

and we need people to support

us. This is what we have to say

to the world. We want to tell

the world that the Palestinian

people need their support and

Israel always attacks us and

oppresses us. Of course Palestinians live under

oppression and they deserve to

live happy lives as quickly as

possible. The 550 Palestinian

prisoners still to be released

under the deal will be

transferred in the next two

months. Here in Gilad Shalit's

home town no-one's talking

about the price of his release.

Instead, they're waiting to