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Insiders with Barry Cassidy. This Program is Captioned


Good morning. Welcome to

ifrds, at the end of an often

nasty week in Immigration

Minister took a hammering for

his treatment of a

nine-year-old boy orphaned in the shipwreck from Christmas

Island. Having flown from Christmas Island his father's funeral, he

insisted the boy be taken immediately back to the scene

of his trauma where he lost

costs for the asylum seekers to both his parents. Paying the

attend the funerals the next

day and then they conceded

they'd been wrong to raise it

on the day of the funerals. 24

hours later they faced allegations their shadow

minister for immigration Scott

Morrison has suggested two

months ago capitalising on

anti-Muslim sentiment. Not

surprisingly, a function on

Thursday to promote harmony day didn't go all that well. Any

other Australian who wanted to

attend a funeral for someone who died in tragic circumstances would have to put

their hand in their own pocket.

I'm also curious as to why rellies have been flown around

the country. I think the

public want to see the

Government show some sense when

it comes to the spending of

taxpayers' money. You're

right. It does seem a flying people to funerals.

Alternatives were available on

this occasion. The alternative

is to say, "We insist that

we'll bury

Island or you can bury people

in Sydney, but we're not going to let you come to the funeral

of your son or your father. " I

wasn't prepared to do that. I I would never seek to deny a

parent or a child from saying

goodbye to their relative. I

would never support that. We need to be sensitive. I've need to

made some very sensitive

comments about this matter in

the past. It's an absolute

disgrace that you would quibble

about a little bit of money for

a funeral for people who've

suffered enough. Timing in

terms of comments I think is very important. The timing of

my comments over the last 24 hours was insensitive and was


I think we as

nation have an obligation to

ensure that we retain our

humanity during what is a very difficult policy debate. Look,

I want to say that Scott has

shown a lot of guts this

morning, accepting that he

might have gone a little bit

over the mark. I too far yesterday. You step

got to say so and I'm prepared

to do that. We are totally

united in wanting effective border protection. show a split in your party?

No, no, no. No split. We all

love each other. It is a

special type of love, but we

love each other. seekers, including the love each other. All 22 asylum

nine-year-old boy that you

spoke of who had been spoke of who had been orphaned,

Sinan chalic, are now on their way back to Christmas Island on way back to

a charter plane. It's not as

simple as saying we're going to

drop him off in Sydney.

There's a process to go

through. There is no harmony

in sending a nine-year-old

child back to that hellhole. I

make decisions based on the

evidence before me and what is

in the best interests of the child in particular and also immigration system. the integrity of our

Disgusting. Shame on you. I

community as much as everybody want to see him in the

that the appropriate else. I need to be

psychological care is psychological care is in place.

You're a disgrace. Is it too

late to reverse your decision?

Did you make a very big mistake here? Well, Heather, being Immigration Minister

means making controversial


Mr Morrison, from today's reports, appears to want

down a very grubby path in the migration debate in this

country. I think that is a

travesty of Scott's position, an absolute travesty of Scott's

position. Do you recant what

you said in shadow cabinet

about Muslim migration? Well, as all journalists know, I

don't comment on shadow cabinet

here or anywhere else. All I

can say is the gossip reported

today does not reflect my views. Mr Morrison should go

to the backbench rather than

being on Mr Abbott's front

bench. There is no more

decent, more sensitive, more

humane person in public life.

This morning our pro guest is the Greens immigration spokesperson Senator Sarah Hanson-Young. We'll check out

the papers around the country.

Fran Kelly, at the end of a

week like that, good timing on the part of newspapers to raise the question why Australian

politics has broken. That's

right. We saw a lot of it

there, didn't we? It's too

much about, and everyone knows

about it these days, point

scoring, getting the headline,

throwing around insult that

will appear to a certain voter

base in one part of one capital

city. It's all about that.

It's focus all about, as Peter Costello

says in this article, you get the feeling it's all about just

trying to stay in power or get

into power. This is an article

- they spoke to quite a few politicians on both sides, former politicians, it should

be noted, Steve Bracks, jeck,

for instance, Peter Costello,

Alexander Downer, Gareth Evans,

calmen Lawrence, and all of

them - some of them I think we should put into perspective not

that far out of the political

debate themselves, suddenly, as

Gareth Evans says, the debate

is as desolate as it gets, all

hill and no light, as he said,

but they're making the point

that it does seem in the 24-hour news cycle things are

getting more and more bogged

down in the quick equip,

headline, whether it be great

big new tax, moving forward,

too much of that, not enough

substance. I think the voters

clearly think that. We might

talk later about membership of

political parties. There's no interest, not much young - certainly in younger generations in our political

parties and part is because

it's all about cheap political points, it's all points, it's all about echoing

the popular sentiment rather

than leading. Julia Gillard

gave a speech last week where

she talked about needing to get the right balance between

cunning and courage, which I

thought was an interesting

choice of words, because, in my view,

view, you've also got to have

the ideas, you've got to have

the policies. Yes, you've got

to have strategy, yes, you've got have to have the ideas and

policies and believe in them.

That was a tilt that John

Faulkner, of course, the


Faulkner has brought down a

review of why the Labor Party

lost. As you say, they're all

ex-politicians, suddenly see

the light in relation to this

problem. Nobody ever sees the

light when they're actually in

a position to do anything about

it. John Faulkner is the same.

I mean, he sat at Julia

Gillard's right hand during the

entire last campaign and has now done a review saying why it was so bad. That's true. It's all fought out on a fairly superficial

minority Government, the sense there could be an election at

any time. I think things are

more frantic than they

otherwise would have been. There wasn't a minority

Government in the last election

campaign. I think we all agree

the last election campaign was

very light on on policy issues

to talk about. It was very

difficult covering it day, as I was, to try to cover

the meat of it to find the meat

of it. No-one wanted to talk

about it. Labor was running

scared, they were staring down the jaws of defeat. They don't

want to frighten any horse anywhere. Malcolm, Anna Bligh

and confirmation that she is certainly popular, far more

popular than she was a few

weeks ago. This might be an

appropriate segway to the stuff

Fran was talking about. In November, Anna Bligh's rating,

satisfies rating as Premier was 25%. It's now 60%, according

to a Galaxy poll. Now, why?

Because she got a 93% good for her handling of the floods. What she did, she showed

leadership, and she showed

competence. She was out there

telling people what was going

on. She knew what was going

on. She told people regularly.

Her leadership was from the front when the front when the emergency

services people she looked hag ed. You got the

impression she wasn't just

going home and having a quick coffee and a lie down in the

afternoon. Going out to dinner

with a few mates. Yes. She

was committing herself totally

to that, plus she knew what was

going on and was able to

communicate that to the voters.

Right balance Right balance between control and compassion. Who would have

thought? Leadership and

competence might win the hards, minds and votes of the electorate. Add think, as well. Emp thy as

well. Can I point out, Julia

Gillard, for all the bad mouthing wooden and being

emotionally unresponsive, got a

61% good rating for her

handling of the flood. Despite

that, there was another poll that showed in Queensland

Kevin Rudd is more popular than

Julia Gillard. Have a listen to Kevin Rudd's response to

that, and keep in mind that, and keep in mind he

wasn't being asked here about a

poll comparing Labor with the coalition, it was Julia Gillard versus Kevin

versus Kevin Rudd. Here he is.

Well, look, I'm

home. And my experience of

these things over a long period

of time, they go up, they go

down, they go up, they go down. Yep. That's what

happens. And, Glen, frank

McGuire is Des ind to be

forever known as Eddie McGuire's brother, won bred McGuire's brother, won bred -

Broadmeadows. Labor suffered

an 8.5% primary swing against them. I think they'll

to have held on to the seat. I

mean, the history of failed

leaders leaving is that often

the seat goes with them. It

did with Jeff Kennett when he

quit in 1999 and his seat of

Burwood fell to Labor. I think

they'll be happy to hold on it.

He is destined always to be

known as Eddy McGuire's

brother. Eddie McGuire is

chairman of Collingwood

football club. As you pointed

out to me, Collingwood football club has 70,000 members, ALP

30,000. Maybe frank would like

to prevail on Eddie for a leadership Jeck lost his

a point the new Labor leader picked up last night. There

has been a swing against the

party today, but I would point

out it has been substantially

less than the swing recorded against

against the Liberal Party when

Jeff Kennett moved on from

parliament after the change of

Government in 1999. Of course, when Jeff Kennett left and they

lost that seat, the Labor Party

stood in that seat. So I think

that's a bit of a distinction

there, whereas the Liberals didn't contest yesterday. The

Liberals got 20% in Broadmeadows at the bielection,

that's a message about the

standing of Independents as

well. Finally, Malcolm, in WA,

the Transport Minister is not

exactly a role model. Well, I

beg to differ. I think the

west Australians can be very

proud that their road safety efforts through the police efforts through the police are working, because of the number

of convictions for speeding and

Transport Minister Troy

Buswell, he of the chair sniffing and sniffing and the affair with

the Green, can attest to that.

He's been busted three times

over the past six months. over the past six months. Once while he was Transport

Minister. Now, in most other

States, a Transport Minister

who gets done in for speeding

normally has to consider his or

her position. But I think the

Buswell factor means that he fact he's not commenting and

nor is his leader. One point I

could make on this, as Transport Minister, maybe he should increase the fines,

because once he was driving 9 K

over the limit, the fine was 75

bucks. A second time for

driving 20 K, more than 20 K

over the limit, and the fine

was $150. 150 - that's a

parking fine in Canberra. And

in Sydney. Minister it's up to him to

increase those penalties. What

is the buzzwell factor? I was

going to say that too. He can

get away with anything. I would imagine that whole sale

manslaughter you might be able

to - you might have to front to - you might have to front a

court on. But everything else

apparently you can escape and

be promoted in fact. That's the

Sunday papers. We'll go to the

Greens spokesperson on immigration Senator Sarah Hanson-Young. To take us

there, here's Immigration

Minister Chris Bowen relaunching multiculturalism

during the week. During our

wave of migrants has faced its

own challenges. When I was

growing up, for example, there

was concern about Asian

migration. Each generation expresses expresses some anxiety about

the new, the unfamiliar. In

the age of concern about

terrorism inspired by extremist

Islam, it is perhaps inevitable

that questions get asked about

Muslim migration to Australia.

As such, it is the role of

Government to ensure policies

and programs are put in place

to deal with and counter such

extremism. But to cast

members of any religious group

as somehow unworthy of their

place in our national community

does injustice to all. Allegations of migrants wanting

to come to Australia to turn it

into a replica of their

homelands ignore the truth.

People come to Australia

because, to them, Australia represents something better. Sarah Hanson-Young,

good morning. So multiculturalism is back, the

term is back. Do we need these sorts of definitions to explain

to the country what we're on

about? When you talk to people on the street, particularly somebody

of my generation, we've always believed that we are a

multicultural community, we

know what that means, respecting each other, it's the

vie bransy of our communities.

What has failed here is the

political discourse around and

leadership. Of course, you

know, it's been wonderful know, it's been wonderful to

see the Labor Party readopt the

M word. We now need to see

what that means in terms of

supporting those communities

and really making

just part of our education

system, but that we just accept that multiculturalism is mainstream. We're a

multicultural community, we're

a multicultural society. That's

great. When you look back in

history, we always have been,

we will continue to be, and let's be proud of that. So

where did it go? Why was the

Government reluctant to use the

term for so long, and certainly during

during the election campaign? Yeah, look, I think it's really about a failure really about a failure of political leadership, particularly for

decade. We saw the cultural

wars and history wars and

people wanting to make mileage

for their own political gain

out of this. I think the

community and people who community and people who go

about their everyday business,

it was never a problem for

them. It's political leadership that's been the

problem. Let's talk about this

nine-year-old orphan boy,

described by one lawyer this

week as a ping-pong ball. What

did you make of the

Government's handling of that? I think the Government's

handling of sina's case,

boy you talk about, was a

debacle to say the least. This

is a young boy who the day

after the tragedy, when we

learnt that he had become orphaned because he'd lost both

of his parents, I came out

clearly and said to the

Minister, "This boy, along with

the other orphans, along with

other survivors, should be

brought to the mainland. We

know these people will be

suffering above and beyond the normal trauma of asylum seekers

who have fled persecution and

torture. This awful incident compounding compounding that stress and that traumatic experience that they've

they've been through, bring

them to the mainland so they're

close to services, and we close to services, and we knew

that a number of these people had extended family here in

NSW. So let's try and do the

logical thing and take a

commonsense approach. That was

rejected. We now see this boy

caught up in what has really

been a political game this

week. I think anyone wants to

see another week we saw, both

from the opposition and also

from the Government. I don't

high point from any of

them There are something like

1,000 kids in detention 1065

kids in detention to date. Of course, when we course, when we saw Chris Bowen make, the Minister, make

announcements in October around

the need to try to move

children out of detention,

there was just over 600. So

since October to now, those

numbers have risen. While

there's been a commitment to

enact the power that the

Minister already has, has had

since 2005, to make a

discretion to allow children and and their families to move out, it's definitely not happening

as fast as it should be. What

should be done? Well, look, I

think we need to fast-track the

process and get those kids and

their families out detention. That's an absolute

must. We also need to fix

things for the longer term.

How come we've got to a stage

where there's 1,000 kids in

detention? You know,

regardless of what people's

political opinions on this

issue are in terms of the

overall strategy of dealing

with asylum seekers and the

various different visa

applications and processes, most to on the street, most

parliamentarians, would argue

that kids do not belong in

detention. If we believe that,

let's do something to fix it.

That means we actually have to amend the migration Act. How

would you go about doing that,

though? You have in mind an

inquiry, a six-month inquiry?

What I really want to see the

Government do is acknowledge

that we need to fix this, not

just in terms of the kids that

are there now, but that we

don't want to have to go back

to a situation where we have a

backlog of 1,000 children held in immigration detention. So a review commissioned by the Government to independently

analyse the migration Act and

how it interacts with responsibilities of

to mine ors and children, get recommendations from experts who know about this. People

have been talking about this

for a long time. Yet it's

falling on the deaf ears of Government. Let's get

recommendationings and then, as

parliamentarians, sit around

the table and work out how we can agree that kids don't

belong in detention and what

we're going to do to

spoken to anybody in the

Government about this? Is

there any appetite for such an

approach? I've mentioned it to

the Minister and I've asked for further talks on further talks on this issue. I

think it's something that the

Government seriously needs to

consider. Does Chris Bowen

really want to go back and have

a week that we've just seen?

The lowest point in the debate

over this issue was last week.

If Chris Bowen wants to fix

this for the long term, if we

want a commonsense approach and a humanane that really does ensure that we

respect the compassion and emp

thy that really underpins

Australian values, then I think this is a wise decision take. If you talk to politicians, though, on both

sides in the major parties,

sides in the major parties, you

talk to them privately they say this concern comes up wherever

we go, people are really concerned about asylum seekers.

So they simply won't go into

bat for them. Look, it's

really interesting that the

politics that came out this

week, really grubby, yukky stuff that we

that were made about really

underscoring and really going

to the base level of what's

existing in every society.

politicians who play on that I

think really lack the

leadership that their position

deserves. What we saw was politicians play to that,

rather than saying hang on a minute, the Australian community community are a compassionate

bunch. We have this innate

believe in the fair go. That's

what we were built on. That's

why people want country. I find it

extraordinary that we have this debate about border protection.

People who come to Australia as asylum seekers seeking protection protection don't want to break

our borders, they want to be invoked

invoked by the protection of

our borders. That's why

they're coming here. It's a

shift, of course. It means

putting politics aside for a

minute and putting the people

at the centre. That hasn't

happened for a long time in the

Australian political sphere on

this issue and it's time it

did. I want to ask you about managed to reverse 100 million dollars that the Government had

given up on the flagship

program. That's a shortfall now. The Government will have

to find. Have they given any indication they'll do that? In our negotiations and

discussions with the

Government, it was clearly said

that this couldn't just come

from other service cuts. We

don't want to see that happen. The Government

The Government is going to have

to find other ways to do it.

We've got some ideas of how

that could be done. An extra

$100 million coming from carbon

and capture storage that's a place that it could

come from. The Government, my understanding, is that they

will look at this in the

context of designing the budget and the

have said there's other places

there. We just don't want to

see that come from essential

services. Did they say to you

they won't come from essential services We've put that to the

Government. Okay. You win this

concession, but then they do something just as objectionable

to you in the budget? Well, of

course, with the budget we will

continue to scrutinise and look at places where, if indeed it needs to

needs to be improved, just like

we do every year. We're not

interested in knocking and

blocking like Tony Abbott. You

know, Dr No on know, Dr No on the run. This

is more about saying are there

going to be areas in the budget

that the Government maybe

doesn't get it right or maybe

they do and we need to support

that and increase that and

improve it. It's about doing

it responsibly, though. Until

we have the budget, it's hard

to be looking at the crystal

ball. You say you won't block

the budget. influence individual measures? Just as we do every year, the various different parts of

legislation that come through, the discussions and

negotiations that we have about improving things. improving things. We've done

that for the 12, 13 years the Greens

Greens have been in Federal

Parliament and we'll continue

to do that. BHP Billiton

announced a profit this week of

$10 billion. At the same time Treasury revealed that the

Government had given up about

$60 billion in its compromise with the mining companies on the

the super profits tax. Do you feel you feel you can now go in harder on the companies when you negotiate the carbon price with

the Government? Well, look, I

think those figures that were

released this week really do

put in context the current deal

that's been struck between the

Government and the three

biggest mining companies. biggest mining companies. $6 billion the Australian public

should be getting extra into -

whether that should be put into

a sovereign fund, as many

economists now argue. That's

what the Greens said from the

beginning. I do to have a rethink about the way

the mining tax has been structured and how that

interacts with the carbon

price, well, that's of course

still a discussion that's

happening within multi-party committee. So you

see a link between the two.

You think your hand has been strengthened as a result of the

figures disclosed this week?

Well, of course the need to

put a price on carbon and we want to see that happen as soon

as possible, the interim carbon

price, and we've put forward a

solution to the committee and the committee discussion. But of course this

issue of the mining tax does

need to be reconsidered now in

the context of remember not

even 12 months ago these big

companies were crying poor and

now we see huge profit predictions

predictions being reported. I

think it's time for us to have

a rethink. But you are pretty

much in agreement with the

Government about how this

should be applied, are you not?

It seems the difficulties will

be in terms of how you compensate industry. Well,

look, that's obviously going to be discussion in terms of the

carbon price and that's

something for the committee to

keep discussing. I'm confident

that we will get a result.

confident that we can work out

a way to put an interim price

on carbon and start to really

make a difference to reducing

carbon emissions. That's what

this is all about. I'm

confident that the committee

will deliver. Just finally, do

you ever see the day when the Greens

Greens might think again about

nuclear power, given it is one

of the cleanest energy sources

available? I think the Greens'

position on quite clear. I think the Australian people are quite

clear that they don't want it

here in Australia. I realise

it's going to be put squarely

on the agenda of the Labor

Party conference, and that's an

issue for them to talk about.

But when there are alternatives

that are right there right now

ready to go, they just need the

confidence and backing from

Government. Why not put our

energy into those things. Why

not put this on the table as

well, given it is a clean

source of power? source of power? Of course what do you do with waste,


of nuclear power can never

answer the questions of what

you do with the waste and, of

course, how you resist the

temptation of that

expansion of uranium going into

weapons. They're not things

that can simply be brushed

aside in this debate. They're

fundamental and core if

Australia were to expand those

types of operations. So nuclear

power never ever? Well, look,

I haven't seen anyone come up

with a solution of how we deal

with the waste. Until we do, I should be spending too much time on. There are alternatives that are out

there. The sole ar and thermal industries industries are right there ready to ready to go. They just need backing from Government and

some real certainty. What

we've seen over the last three

or four years from this

Government is, while they talk

about it a lot, there's that

boom, bust, boom bust kind of inference to the industry.

It's time we gave them the real

backing they deserve. Thanks

for your time this morning. Thanks, Barrie. Today we

announced record results for

the half year. We saw BHP and fellow companies through a $22

million investment. Weak in

mining, weak in the country

... save themselves from a $60

billion tax. That's what the

Government's new super tax is

doing. And the politicians

went to water. We went to water. We said at the

time it would raise less

revenue than expected by the

former proposal. It does.

This is probably the most hopeless

hopeless piece of public policy

I have ever witnessed. Our

underlying EBITDA was up 60% to

$17.3 billion US dollars. Billions of dollars of investment already on investment already on hold.

Julia Gillard gave up $60

billion to win the election and

stop the miners from

advertising against Labor. Who

will be hurt by the super tax?

It may be some of the major mining tax pay less tax under

this than they paid before. It's

It's a complete shambles.

Underlying EBIT was up 74% to

14.8 billion US dollars.

much should mine bosses get for

the wealth they dug out of the

Australian ground? Well, they

did -- wealth they did not

create. Revenue that flows from is still strong.

Operating cash flow was up by

123% to $12.2 billion US. 123% to $12.2 billion US. Julia Gillard and Wayne Swan

have gotten the numbers wrong.

We were able to increase our

interim dividend by 10%. We will

Australian parliament the tax

as I agreed it with Australia's

biggest mining companies. We

will not be compromising that agreement in order to the legislation through. So, Fran, if these figures are

right, the mining company spent

$27 million and in the process

saved themselves $60

billion Pretty good return. Of course they were going for the

money shot they were hoping to

get the change of Government.

They nearly got that too.

That's true. However, I'm not Gillard and Wayne Swan for

this, because this was killing

Labor. It was killing Labor

and they weren't getting the politics of it politics of it right at all.

The policies seemed to be too

complicated and perhaps wrong in parts and there was an

argument over that, even people

who supported it. They had to do something. Kevin Rudd could not shift, he could not,

remember he wasn't talking to

the miners. His tone was all

wrong, no-one could explain it.

You got a different explanation

from the Treasury than from them. Gillard fixed it within

a week. Yes, she gave away too

much, no doubt about it.

it, though? Politics this well this week the bigger the mining

profits, the more revenue that

comes to the Government and comes to the Government and the

harder for it is for the

coalition to argue there should

be no mining tax. Joe Hockey

saying she gave away $60

billion. He wants to forgo 70

billion. It's rich for the

opposition to say that. opposition to say that. In terms of the argument, I think the super profit, you

know, must reinforce the case

for an increase in the tax.

What's really puzzling I think

as to your point, Fran, is that

Labor sold it so hopeless ly

that the Australian public aren't

aren't in favour of a tax.

Now, if these numbers don't

start to change some minds, I'd be surprised. If the

politicians can't turn this,

Labor politicians, turn this around and change public

opinion in support of at least

the tax they have, if not more, they drawing a salary. The miners,

don't forget, they're still

trying to quibble over the

agreement they signed with

quible about the royalty s,

saying but the royalties saying but the royalties go up

and we want subsidies to keep

rising too. Nonsense. It

makes them look like they're

bleating. BHP is now like its

boss, the big nominal

Australian. Their investment

is worldwide and not just here.

They can afford to boast from whole range of shareholders of

their returns and they want to

be able to keep saying that

because a large chunk of their

business is overseas. So they

don't really care what the

Australian Government does or

want. This he know they've got

the Government on the run.

This deal that is yet to be

formalised was an escape route

rather than an advance on the

super profits tax argument.

The mine irs know that. They

know they have the upper hand. The best thing it could do would be

to settle and settle quickly

and get it out of the way.

She's not cleared the decks on

this, this is the point.

They're still fighting over royalties issue. Because they

mucked it up because they did

it in a hurry. They have to

hold the line here. It's about

a tax that didn't happen versus

a tax that probably won't

happen. I disagree. I think

what the Gillard Government

should be making sure they do

now is absolutely hold the line on that royalties thing and stare

stare the miners down. I stare the miners down. I don't

think the miners have a leg to

stand on at the moment with profits. They have another advertising campaign. The

Government has a scheme, got to get it through the parliament

and then, once the scheme is

in, you can build on that. Otherwise you have Otherwise you have no scheme at

all There was anonymous Labor

figure said just invent they

didn't invent the wheel they

never would have sold it. Part

of the problem is they get distracted, this week Paul

Howes having a go at reents,

the full symphony from Paul

Howes and of course Craig

Emerson and Trade Minister

responded in pretty mild

language, benign language, by

saying I think cooperation is

better. Bob Hawke exercised

that kind of cooperation. The

'Australian' then had an

editorial, and historically accurately accurately observed that Paul

Howes was in nappies when Bob

Hawke put prices and incomes

accord together. But you liked

the accuracy of it, did you?

Here's Paul Howes in response.

Today's 'Australian' says I

need to learn a few history

lessons. Has a crack at me

about my age. I can't do anything about that. trying very hard and I can promise the 'Australian' that

next year I'll be a year older than I am today. Then this

very interesting article, I

noticed a few comments from a

few people. The Trade Minister

compared himself to Bob Hawke.

There's one thing I know about

Bob Hawke. It's that Bob Hawke

changed lives for working people in can't be 100% sure, but I'm

pretty certain that Craig

Emerson has never negotiated a pay increase for pay increase for anyone in his

life other than himself. As I

said yesterday, the hon rabble

Craig Emerson is a misnomer, nothing honourable about him.

We did look after him. We did look after him. What

did he do? He ratted on us. You know, our

against us a couple of times.

After he'd done the dirty on

us, he rocked up to one of the

meetings. They had to throw

him out. Get out of here, mate, you're not

welcome. Lovely image, isn't

it? It's disgusting. I find

that disgusting. Don't you

think that's a great advertisement

advertisement for union He

ratted on us. They're talking

about a caucus vote We handed

Thank you seat. That was all

about payback, though. What

happened in 2003 was that

Ludwig and AWU directed Craig

Emerson to vote for Kim Beasley

against Simon Crean and he

didn't obey orders and they've been waiting been waiting to get him for a

long, long time. I tell you

what, you know, they got him

this week. Of course Wayne

Swan, who was close to both the

gentlemen that we just heard

from, is caught in the middle

of it here. He was asked which

side of the argument he settled

on. The fact is that from time

to time people were will

express opinions. I've had plenty expressed about me and

vice versa from time to time. That's the way public debate

goes. Are you sitting on the

fence with this issue? fence with this issue? I'm

halfway around the world.

Craig Emerson is a good

minister. There's been a

spirited debate. There's been a few colourful descriptions

used. They're all big enough and

and ugly enough to look after

themselves. Not good enough.

He's not sitting on the fence, he's sitting on the AW subfaction of caucus, that's

the problem. The whole world

know it. Joe Hockey had a good

point during the week, he point during the week, he said

Wayne Swan is owned by the AWU,

glued to them, he said. He also made the point if he rats

on the AWU, the AWU has another

candidate for treasurer and

that's Bill shorten. Oh,

please. Chris Bowen, of course,

the Government minister most in

the spotlight this week, any

sympathy for him or did he fail

the commonsense test? Look, he

didn't succeed with this.

There's no reason. There's no reason. We understand now it took three

Island because they were held

up somewhere. Why this kid had

to stay - had to leave Sydney, no-one can really no-one can really work out. I

think one of the problems might

be that after various be that after various scandals in the immigration department under the previous Government

there was a strict demarcation

between ministerial powers and

the department powers. What the department said went so

there could be no suggestion of

ministerial interference. It

might be that Chris Bowen has been caught been caught up with those

safeguards, but logic and I'd argue from a base of ignorance

medical opinion would say to

you that if that kid had any problems, taking him back to

Christmas Island would not

lessen those problems, it would

exacerbate them. That was the

view of Professor Louise Newman, who advises the

Government. She's chairperson

of a group that advises the

Government. She said it's the

worst possible outcome. Also

people have been saying this

for months. As Sarah

Hanson-Young pointed out, it was happened, these people,

children, should not be kept locked up in detention,

overcrowded, fraught detention

centre at the scene of the

deaths. I mean, really, everything wrong about that. In terms of taking the advice

of the department, I mean, the

word around is that very senior department officials were saying quite clearly to the

head of the department, "I will

have no part of this, this is

wrong." I think Chris Bowen didn't think this through

clearly enough and early enough

and once it was pointed out to

him, of course blind Freddy could see that - His

compassion gene was on show and

the fact he actually brought

the families across for the funerals. Then he just seemed to completely to completely misjudge the next

step. That was a no-brainer. That was the advice of the

department and I think of

Australian Federal Police that

he be excepted. I'm he be excepted. I'm not saying

Chris Bowen wouldn't have. I'm saying that

saying that the department has a greater control over things

than you might think. than you might think. The

bottom line is he has

ministerial discretion in these

matters. He admitted himself. He's been releasing children

out of detention, as he points out, even though they have

1,000 still in there. But he's

done it before. Why didn't he

do it this time The minister

said this is the advice from

the people caring for them, the

social workers, counsellors

caring for them on Christmas

Island. That's a different

story than the one from story than the one from Louise

Newman, who said she's spoken to the professionals on

Christmas Island and they're all saying this boy is deeply traumatised

traumatised and needs to be

moved. You wonder how the

politics will play out. The

coalition would argue we've got 1,000 children in detention because Labor's weakened border

protection policies and protection policies and allowed

200 votes to come. That's a

fair argument as well. I think that's part of the problem,

that Chris Bowen and Labor all

the time forsee the argument

coming, they try to keep things

as quiet as possible, they

don't want to do anything to

raise a red flag and maybe leaving these people the funerals might have raised

questions. Well, they got it

completely wrong this time. The

question asked on a lot of commercial talkback radio all

the time is what would Jesus

have done.

question him sefs. He's not

available, but this is what Kevin Andrews would have done.

I can only indicate that what

I would have done, or my approach in that situation would have been motivated by

compassion for the individual

and it would have been about

trying to find the best

circumstances for that boy. Do you think would have?

Well, he would have sent him

to naru, according to Liberal

Party policy. That goes to show the fact that Kevin

Andrews said that, that this

supposed division within the Liberal Party between moderates

and hardliners is not as simple

as that. Kevin Andrews is

conservative, Abbott supporter,

yet he could find it in himself

to say that. Would he have

found it in himself to do that time, that's a different answer perhaps. Scott Morrison's

contribution now. Before that,

against the background of leaks

and there was a leak against

him, of course, and what he was supposedly supposedly - supposed to have

said to a shadow cabinet

meeting, then leaks on the

Government side as well that this series of leaks designed

to hurt Kevin Rudd, presumably.

Who is hurt most by these

leaks? There's an outbreak on

both sides, but I guess the Government is the Government

afterall. Both sides of

politics are behaving as if

they lost the election. That's

the paradox. The coalition

clearly did and there's a collision in ambition and fear, ambition for

people like Andrew Rob, who thinks this is probably thinks this is probably their

last shot if Tony Abbott makes

it next time and then you've

got the young Jamie got the young Jamie Briggs and

other cohorts who fear if they

win next time, they'll miss the

ministerial bus. You have a

whole lot of conflicts there.

On the other side you have

Kevin Rudd and that's

completely unresolved. Unresolved by the election

result. Tony Abbott makes this obvious

obvious point about the

divisions. Look, the point I keep making to my colleagues is

that if you can't run yourselves, you can't run your country. Now, that's a

universal political law. That

includes the two major

That excludes them - I think

Glen is right. The Kevin Rudd factor got shunted aside, put

in a box for as much of the

election campaign as they could

manage, with someone sitting on

the lid. It's not resolved.

That's going to be a problem.

Until Julia Gillard really establishes herself as prime believe she's done yet in the

eye of the voters or the party

particularly, until she does

that, she will have these

problems. She will have these

rumblings. As soon as she does that, it that, it will go away and Kevin

Rudd will be put back in his

box to some degree. He's doing good job as Foreign Minister.

When is that, next election.

That's the Gillard

challenge. Scott Morrison, do

any of you accept he might have

said what he's reported to have

said to shadow cabinet? No,

I've checked inside shadow cabinet. He is not a racist.

Poibts ought to be made here.

He described the Cronulla riots

in his electorate, race riots,

as shapeful. In 2009 in a bid

to unify the community he took

a whole bunch of Muslim kids

from his electorate and marched

the Kokoda trail. Okay. I've

heard that, that's reported a lot, that's a sentiment picked

up by a lot of journalists. up by a lot of journalists. He

raised the issue, but my

information is that he raised

it, he said look, there is

anti-Muslim feeling in the

faced. What he didn't say was

we have to exploit it. He

didn't say we have to

capitalise on it. The question

is bring things to concentrate on. He brought that to the table. table. It obviously unleashed the debate reported, which is

it's not a good idea for us to

go there, we shouldn't go into

that. They shouldn't have

talked about it? There's a lot

of context you can put on it.

I wasn't there, I don't know.

The only thing that people

agree on is he brought it to

the table. Now, if he

that the coalition exploit a

minority, attack a minority for electoral

electoral gain, he has no place

in Australian public Correct. And certainly no

place in any alternative

Government or Government.

However, there is nothing However, there is nothing firm

that's come out since to say

that that's what he did. Okay,

okay. If I just continue.

Let's release the minutes of that meeting, the edited

minutes, to show that section

to see what in fact he proposed. Tony Abbott says

there's nobody more sensitive in the country. That's ridiculous. Listen to this

exchange on 2GB. A lot of

garbage gets circulated through

the various media outlets when

this sort of thing comes up.

Listen to this. So the AFP

will pick up the tab for the

funeral, hello? And the Department of Immigration

funding the flights? And taking sight seeing trips and

these sorts of things. I just

don't understand how that

decision might have been made in these circumstances. The

department will not confirm the

itinerary, not confirm a seeing tour, saying it is an

operational matter. That's

just not good enough. If they're not confirming a

sightseeing tour, it doesn't

actually rule it out, does it?

We'll pursue this in estimates

next week, I'm sure. I mean, really, really, they're suggesting these people are somehow so

different to the rest of different to the rest of us that they sightseeing tour immediately

after a tour, they're incapable

of real grief. He's going a bit further when he also

pointed out with great vigour, you know, you know, you couldn't get the Government to pay for your

funeral costs. He volunteered

this, rather than - To me that

was the most damaging thing of

what he did. A bad mistake. Apart from the absurdity of

trying to say gee these people on Christmas Island have it lucky, they're a fortunate

bunch, it is just exploiting the division. Look, he

mightn't be a racist. I have

no evidence that Scott Morrison

is a racist and his closest

colleagues say he isn't. But, gee, he's a hard-liner on

immigration. He doesn't step

back from exploiting the

weaknesses. This goes back to your opening remarks about the

piece in the paper about the

dumbing down of politics. I

mean, there's no question that

the coalition wants a debate on

this because everywhere Scott

Morrison goes he gets told it's

an issue by

been thus for 15 years. As

soon as it's raised, Labor goes

down in the polls. Ask any Labor politician of the last - It's always there as soon as a politician comes out with a

public details, it's giving

permission for people to vent

themselves. Raise Raising the

question about whether this was

a valid use of money, was this

the best place for the funerals

to be, is one thing and should

we bear the cost, that's one

thing. To go on and invite

people to compare it to their

get, that is in line with what

pants did when she stood up in

the maiden speech, exactly the same kind of - fuelling the

same kind of response from the community. You could so easily invite a different

response. What about the South

Australian liberal senator cory

Bernardy, who said this during

the week about the Muslim

culture. I for one don't want to eat meat butchered in the

name of an ideology mired in

6th century brutality. It is an an an At ma to my own values.

Well, he ought to go to my

butcher, barri. I don't know

where to get meet like that.

He clarified himself He clarified himself yesterday

or today saying he was talking about fundamental ism, Islamic fundamentalism, and not just

normal, mainstream, Muslims. I

don't know what he has against Halal. Halal - Arrangement - That's right. The context is we've had a series of

European leaders come out this

week, Sarkozy, week, Sarkozy, the Deputy Prime Minister of the Minister of the Netherlands and

Angela Merkel all saying that multiculturalism has been a

failed experiment. This is

also fuelling a bit of the

debate in Australia as well. I

think it's a false debate,

because the multiculturalism in

those countries is not

multiculturalism as we know it.

They have very separate

populations that come out as guest workers, are notion I think. A couple notion I think. A couple of

quick issues, the levy. It's

through the House. The Senate

awaits. Nick Xenophon is the

key senator for a few more

months. He wants to see to it

that the States put in place

insurance for their assets,

which wasn't in place in

Queensland. But can he go to

Julia Gillard, the Prime Minister rather than a Minister rather than a State

Premier, and insist that this

is what I want the States to

do? I'm not sure what he wants

her to do. Maybe she could say tossed tossed around, you know, you

will get a minimum of disaster

relief unless you ensure yourself should there be future natural catastrophes. But it's

a pretty tough ask to ask the

Federal Government to make States take

States take out insurance

policies. At the end of it

all, senator Xenophon will have to think about the prospect

that he was the man from SA who

stopped or slowed down recovery work for Queenslanders by

blocking the levy. I don't

think he will. I think most of

the States do have some

insurance. There is insurance. There is a particular agreement with Queensland that they get a 75%/25% subsidy or payment from

the Commonwealth in case of disaster. I don't know why Queensland doesn't have

insurance, maybe it's because

they're - their outlook is more

prone to extreme weather

events, therefore the cost will

be so much greater. Other States have something in place

apparently. Certainly one thing, Julia Gillard cannot make any insistence upon

Queensland taking out insurance

contingent on current flood

relief. That cannot happen. It could only be a future arrangement. That's effectively what he's asking for. Maybe he

can make it something for the

future. Just quickly on the

Labor Party now having a look

at what it ought to do at what it ought to do about

the way it manages its own

affairs, you're really

interested into the report what went wrong during the election

campaign, secret report. That's the read in detail. Got one page.

Kevin Rudd. Look, this report

was quite a solid document and

they started whittling it down and began as a, ended as a tooth pick, calling for

primaries for pre-election

selections. It's all the other stuff

stuff we want to see. I think

eventually one way or another

we will. Look, reports have just come out after every

election and this was a special election. But Julia Gillard's

made quite clear that the

things asked of her, she's not

going to do. Well, to me, I'm

actually not so interested in

those first two, I'm

in it of course but we know

what they'll say. You've

written a book about it, plenty

of others have written about

it. We pretty much know what

went wrong and what killed off

Labor's chances of having an

outright victory. I am

interested in this third

chapter. The problem is it's

never going to happen. It's

already factions moving against it. But what happened when John Faulkner and Bob Carr and

Steve Bracks went around the

country talking to people was Labor members said no-one

listens to us, it's completely moribund experience being a member of the that's why we're leaving.

That's their problem, that's

what they have to deal with. I

see nothing in the response so

far the unions will allow that to happen and the factions.

They're recommended ending of

course that 80% of the vote be

limited to party members, 20%, including 20% for the unions,

and that another 20% be opened up to outsiders who are Labor

supporters. What that tells me

is that still 80% of the vote

you can organise faction ly, is the bottom the bottom line, and

how do you establish whether

somebody is a Labor supporter?

Do I walk into the office and

say I'm a Labor supporter She's said she'll choose the

ministry, she won't budge on

that one. What about delegates

to national conference. For

years we've gone about how

national conference is boring,

no real policy debates. They make a file members be able to go and be delegates at national conference, they conference, they don't say how

many. Even that will be

argued. I'd like to see in the

report who is the real Julia. More with Julia. More with our panel

shortly. Now here's shortly. Now here's Mike

Bowers and Talking Pictures.

pr I'm Mike Bowers, talking

pictures this morning with

cartoonist for the 'Daily Telegraph' Warren Brown. Thank

you, it's always a delight to

be here on a Sunday

morning. Well, look, love Thy

neighbour is one thing, but of

course we saw Julia cross the

ditch and go see And rubbing noses and all that

sort of thing. Who'd have

thung it, she seems so radiant

and enjoying her trip to New Zealand, someone has to, I suppose. Exactly right.

They're never quite short of

pictures. It always makes

great pictures, this

nose-rubbing. It's sharing the

same hair, I'm told, nice

principle. Unless you have a

head could ld. She looks like she's confident i