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# Theme Music. I'm Waleed Aly. Hi there and welcome to Big Ideas,

a feisty IQ Squared debate Amongst our Short Cuts today,

proposition that WikiLeaks debates the proposition the is a force for good. the dirt on global cyber crime. A Russian IT security expert dishes meeting a Bombay bar dancer Plus, an Indian journalist tells how led her to a much bigger story. named Leela, was a few months after I met her, What happened with Leela which Bombay is the capital, the State government of Maharashtra were immoral, decided that bar dancers a stage was somehow contributing that there dancing fully clothed on morality levels of the youth. to the fall in to the underworld And it was connected and it was connected to corruption, that were thrown out. ridiculous little theories of these declarations, And within three or four months the government shut down dance bars. girls like her So Lela and about 70-75000 were forced onto the streets. a certain sense of surety, And I can say that with came from castes because these girls and they did not have an education, that were traditionally depressed, they have no skills. what makes them the quickest money. So, of course they are going to do from her book Beautiful Thing More from Sonia Faleiro, a little later. disorders in young people. But first, understanding mood for parents, It's a frightening dilemma the symptoms of mental illness is an unhappy teenager showing

or simply being moody? Brain Food Lecture series, As part of its gathered a panel the University of New South Wales of well-informed guests, and Matthew Johnstone, including Professor Ian Hickie I Had a Black Dog. author of the cartoon memoir from the Black Dog Institute Professor Gordon Parker

spoke to young lawyer Lucinda Napper, a two year bout of depression about how she survived at the start of her uni days. very insular, So, the first thing was to become not reply to phones etc, etc. what stay in your room, Did you think that was depression? else explaining that insularity? Or did you think there was something quiet, a little bit shy. No, I think I had a tendency to be under pressure with starting Uni, And I just sort of assumed I was having normal kind of, and undertaking my law degree, hormonal things. maybe belated adolescent just thought it was me, And I really, honestly or a selfish modern child and I was ungrateful and couldn't deal with reality. who had been mollycoddled would be something more than that. And it never occurred to me it

So, the self-blame accrued. to be critical of yourself. You were continuing Yeah, absolutely. light in the eyes, or other signals? Did people around you notice loss of I'm sure they did, but I think, of Matthew's slies, and this is also another at putting on a face. is that you get very good at uni, with friends. And I was good at that, I actually found quite easy With superficial relationships was kept on the surface, as long as everything to engage with people superficially.

it most affected was my family So, it was really the people and my very close friends, and under enough circumstances because they knew me well enough

always maintain that, to see that I couldn't the energy to put on this face. and I didn't always have and they did many, many times, But when they said to me, I would always just say 'Yes' you know, 'are you OK?' because I didn't know how to say, don't know what is wrong with me'. 'no I am not OK, but I feeling that - I'm not OK. Right, so there was this nebulous closer to the diagnosis, How did you get as against anything else? the definition of depression it was a long time coming, Yeah, well what happened, as I said,

and it was several years. for four or six weeks, And I went overseas away from my life and my reality and that break for four or six weeks, And I went overseas

and when I came home, somehow triggered something, I said to my mum, something wrong with me, 'I think there's and I don't think I can fix it'. for me to be able to say, And that was a huge thing but it was massive. it seems so minor, And as soon as I said that, our family GP and said mum took me to we're going to get help' and we did. 'OK, we're going to fix this, in your thinking? So, what caused that change or you read something? Had somebody said something,

and being out of my normal routine No, it was just the break away from all my normal stresses

all the time and still feeling awful

or you read something? connect with anything, anywhere. and being away and unable to great food, having a good time, Seeing wonderful sights, having having no pressure - engagement, no emotional connection. and nothing, there was no then, and said in an intrusive way, If somebody had come up to you before how would you have responded to that? 'I think you're depressed' I don't know. That's interesting Gordon, on some level acknowledged I think, I probably would have that to be possible. about depression. But I didn't know anything 20-year-old law student, To me, as a 19 or about depression. But I didn't know anything got when they were abused, depression was something that people extremely traumatic experience, or drug addicts or had had some grown up in a warzone. had, you know, It wasn't something someone as lucky as me could develop. I think I would have considered it almost self indulgent to consider that I had a mood disorder on par with the people who had had these awful experiences. I think that says a lot about you and your great character and resilience to make that statement. Ian, how common is Lucy's story, is that very unusual, does that show a lot of sophistication

compared to the average young person? Well, the sophisticated bit is to realise that it's wrong, that something is really profoundly wrong. I think the question, if someone says 'are you OK?' A bit from Matthew's book I might disagree a bit with, if anyone says 'are you OK', you say, of course I'm OK. They're kind of offering help, but the immediate response is not to do that. So, I think we've got to find different ways of engaging around that topic,

of how you provide help and then what help is like. And where that pathway of getting help starts. I think we have a number of significant advantages or advances, one is the one you've alluded to, a much wider concern in Australia about mental health. There's a much wider discussion in the whole community about mental health. So, the anxiety now which is in the international survey, is about how how the hell do you get help? You know, it's not so much about having the problem now, it's about the accessibility to help. With young people in particular, this is where I think the internet has been a major advance, about ways of actually engaging, getting information as you've alluded to, things like the Inspire Foundation that Matthew's been working with, the way in which the internet is being used now. Ways of entering into, starting to find out more, starting to get information, even trying strategies online, getting information. We have seen developments in the health services systems, with things like the Head Space Movement in Australia and others. Are trying in some way to make that gap between some recognition that something is wrong, and I think what Matthew was alluding to, the easy entry point. Being able to talk to someone in some way. Which i think we've previously had this big gap between you identify a problem and it's the family GP or the health system, a very adult focused, a very medicalised kind of thing that is a long way away. So, it's hard in that conversation where someone says 'are you OK?' or the health system, For the same time, if you're thinking 'what happens next?' Because that next has been such an alienating experience and primarily in Australia,

the primary care system is unfriendly to the young. It's great if you're middle aged, doctor's the same age as you are,

suffering the same complaints together, it's marvellous. But when you're young and you're not, it's a different kind of system. I think, there's a real challenge, as we head down the public education road, that actually these easy entry points, the sort of soft way of having that conversation. But I think also at a family level and at a school level, we have to ask the questions in a different way. I don't think 'are you OK?' - that's the meaning of the question. we have to ask the questions in a different way. But I don't think it is actually the question, there's a way of seeking information together, working in a different kind of way. And actually the people you are really close to, you don't really - You just know they're not OK. So, I think the issue becomes how do you assist, how do you start that conversation, I'd be interested in what you think, Lucy, about how you actually do that. I think in the work we've been doing with young people, and with Inspire and elsewhere, is trying to find a different language or way of behaving that allows people to start down that process. I think the evidence is pretty good that once you start down that road and accompany people down that road, they'll get help. But the start is still really difficult. Yeah, and I agree with that, and I think that,

and this is only my experience,

I don't pretend to speak for all young people, but I certainly know that in general, quite often young people need, not someone to say - 'are you OK,' but I certainly know that in general, but for someone to say 'you're not OK'. Someone who they are close to and can trust, a parent or a friend or a counselor. To say, you know what, 'you're not OK, there is something, we need to fix it, we can fix it, we will fix it, and these are some of the things that we need to start to do to get that ball rolling.' Because young people in the midst of all these different pressures

and a mood disorder as well are overwhelmed by the question as Ian said 'are you OK' and then the possible implications of 'no, I'm not' and now I need to tell you what I want to do and what's wrong with me, and then the possible implications of 'no, I'm not' which they're just not capable of doing. I certainly wasn't. Matthew, you and your wife, Ainsly wrote a book about how to help and you have a number of slides about things you should not do and some things you should do. Like pull up your socks, etc. So, would you like to summarised some of the things that are probably unwise, unhelpful, counterproductive, and some of the productive things?

Well, pointing out how nice the weather is, is annoying and pointless. Socks have very little to do with mental health. You know, be a man, which is one that we came across quite a lot. It's not a sign of weakness, all these sorts of things. And I think there's a lot of negative things you can say and I think it's quite a hard thing when you say - How you actually approach this subject, because a lot of people are fearful of approaching people's mental health or lack of it. And how do you actually step over that thing. And quite often I think when someone says 'you're not OK' it's also a validation of what they're experiencing as well. So, what they can see and how you might be affecting that family unit or your partner or whoever it is, so it's important for that person to be able to say what it is.

I think sometimes as well it's very difficult to hear and to also be able to respond to it, if you're OK and how do you actually start that dialogue. Some of the good things that you can do is just to say, these are some of the things I'm aware of, 'this is how you're making the rest of us feel.' And also trying to be there and not being an armchair general and telling people how they should be living and how they should be behaving, but really trying to be there and listen to them.

I have an expression, which is like being the rock in the river, where you let it flow around you and just open your ears, shut your mouth and open your heart. And really listen there. And then if that person says they think they need help, like you did, then help them find that help. Do some research on a good doctor and then go with them, is one of the greatest things you can do as an act of support. at the University of New South Wales Brain Food event Lawyer, Lucy Napper speaking there Brain Food event on teenage mood disorders. And you can head to our website if you'd like to see that event in full.

Next up - Is WikiLeaks a force for good? Many seem convinced Julian Assange is a white knight, fighting the good fight for democracy and freedom of speech. But just as many condemn Assange and WikiLeaks as anarchists trying to undermine good government. Later we'll hear from conservative commentator, Tom Switzer, but first, digital technology researcher Suelette Dreyfus,

who wrote a book with Julian Assange in the '90s, argues that WikiLeaks is a force for good. I'm here to tell you some of WikiLeaks truths. Let's see if you can handle them.

The truth that more than 100,000 civilian deaths occurred in Iraq, at least 15,000 of which had previously been concealed by the US government. This resulted in the UN calling for a full instigation into human rights abuses there. The truth that although our political leaders have been telling us

that we've been 'winning' the war in Afghanistan for about a decade, the Afghan war logs call it in to question and show that not only haven't we been winning, but that the war is probably un-winnable.

That people are being held as prisoners with out charge

in Guantanamo Bay for a set of ridiculous reasons that have nothing to do with terrorism. probably un-winnable. Such as the journalist from Al Jareeza, the camera man, who was imprisoned there for six years so that the US military could interrogate him about Al Jareeza.

who was imprisoned there for six years The 14-year-old kidnap victim, the child, in Guantanamo Bay. The 89-year-old man who suffers from dementia. The taxi driver in Afghanistan who was arrested for knowing the area he drove his taxi's around in too well.

Sydney taxi drivers seem to be pretty safe on that front, I'd say. (Audience laughter) Yeah. That the prison in Guantanamo Bay had a policy of hiding prisoners from the International Red Cross. Those bastions of subversiveness and anarchy! That the CIA kidnapped and tortured an innocent German citizen and then secretly tried to pressure the German government into not arresting the CIA kidnappers. That, as Christian has said, the Icelandic financial crisis was caused by fraud and deception on a breathtaking scale. the CIA kidnappers.

That Thailand's military censored the internet in Thailand. WikiLeaks published the secret list of censored internet sites. Indeed, it published the list of planned internet sites that were going to be censored here in Australia under legislation.

And on that taboo list, WikiLeaks. That are large British oil trader

illegally dumped toxic waste in Ivory Coast in Africa and the environmental disaster killed 15 people

and poisoned more than 100,000 more. That the previous president of Kenya, Daniel arap Moi, and his family and his cronies, looted more than a billion dollars from the country's coffers

and that the government that followed his government was covering it up. Some of that ill-gotten gains was stashed here in Australia, in a 10,000 hectare farm in Queensland. That the Indonesian military in West Papua is corrupt, and conducting all manner of human rights atrocities and abuses on the West Papuans. And that local independence movement in West Papua is stronger than previously thought. That the United States Secretary of State directed her diplomats to spy on members of the UN Security Council and the UN Secretary General, including stealing their DNA. So, I ask you, can you handle these truths? Because I suspect you can. We need WikiLeaks and we need a free media. WikiLeaks is part of that free media, because the evidence has shown that the watch dogs and the agencies of democracy aren't enough on their own. That WikiLeaks is a necessary addition to the array of checks and balances. WikiLeaks does say that there is a role for secrecy, Julian Assange is on record as saying that he thinks things such as personal medical records should be kept secret. WikiLeaks doesn't believe that everything should be open and public. However, governments must have a higher level of transparency than individuals, who should be entitled to a higher level of privacy. Governments have this greater obligation, in part, because there is a greater temptation in governments to secrecy. Opponents of WikiLeaks like to try out arguments that free speech should have constraints, and that you can't cry fire in a crowded theatre. And I won't cry fire tonight in this crowded theatre, but there is one instance where you can cry fire in a crowded theatre, where you must cry fire in a crowded theatre, and that is when there really is a fire. You have a duty in the public interest to cry fire and WikiLeaks has been crying fire in crowded theatre because there is a fire.

This week marks the 40th anniversary of the New York Times publication of the Pentagon Papers. The indignation of the Pentagon and the White House at the publication of embarrassing information is not new. 40 years ago the Supreme Court refused the White House's request to stop all publication of papers. Justice Black, from that ruling, to stop all publication of papers. wrote some words that I think are worth repeating. He said that, 'The responsibilities of the free press include, the duty to prevent any part of the government from deceiving the people and sending them off to distant lands to die of foreign fevers and foreign shot and shell. Does anyone recall the weapons of mass destruction? Deception? I'm afraid so. What a different place the world might have been if WikiLeaks existed

at the very moment we were told we should go to war in Iraq

to ferret out those mysterious weapons of mass destruction. at the very moment we were told we should go to war in Iraq WikiLeaks has been a force for good in other more subtle ways. It has tested whether so much secret information really needs to be kept secret on national security grounds and shown that it doesn't. As a journalist who trained on a daily newspaper, I've been pleased to see how WikiLeaks is changing the media for the benefit of the public. It's challenged the traditional media and by doing so has made journalists braver. By its fearless reporting it has re-invigorated journalists the world over how WikiLeaks is changing the media to start asking the hard questions again. This is crucial because a free media is the watchdog of a free society. It's revolutionised the traditional media by partnering with more than 75 traditional newspapers and media outlets its proved that media can work collaboratively, the traditional media not just in competition, for better reporting in the public interest. It's a first. It's introduced a whole new generation, the young, to what a newspaper is. It's encouraged the spread of data journalism, sophisticated analysis of large scale data sets, such as the Afghan and the Iraq war logs, to understand the bigger picture - what it really means. The same sort of work an intelligence agency does

to understand the bigger picture - what it really means. but the fruits of this analysis are given to all the people in society and not locked in some hidden vault. It's enhanced the spread of new media. There are more than 20 new leak sites that have sprung up in the wake of WikiLeaks, including IndoLeaks, BalkanLeaks, ThaiLeaks, EnviroLeaks, UniLeaks and OpenLeaks. Even the Wall Street Journal is copying WikiLeaks. It's hard to believe it's only four years old. Younger than Twitter, YouTube and Facebook. Despite this, WikiLeaks has nearly 1-million Twitter followers. Freedom of speech is the most important freedom. You can't censor it, you can't control it in the ways the other side is suggesting. If underpins all other freedoms in our free society. And you can't censor it because you run the risk of hiding corruption and unethical behaviour by governments and corporations. WikiLeaks has a track record of bringing the truth to the people. This is a force for good because an informed democracy is a better one. Truth and power. WikiLeaks brings both of these things to the people. To us. And that is why WikiLeaks is a force for good. (Applause) Unlike my friends on the right here, I do stand united with my Labor friends for this very important point. Which is a principle about the integrity of government and high level policy making.

and you've heard this this evening, is that WikiLeaks represents a triumph of democracy. We all have the right to know everything about everyone.

Especially in government. And that this is a victory for free speech. I take a different view. wikiLeaks, I believe can cause, CAN cause, real harm to not only security but to the very principle of transparency itself. And indeed, far from being a force for good, Julian Assange and WikiLeaks are irresponsible mischief makers. Now, Assanges' supporters insist

his efforts have not done serious damage to western interests. And I think it's fair to say that's probably true, for now. But WikiLeaks arguably put US soldiers and their allies at risk. For example, last July dozens of Afghan civilians were named in the documents as US military informants. Haven't their lives, as well as those of their families, been at risk of reprisal? Why was this in the public interest? Is this really responsible journalism? Crikey, even the Guardian newspaper,

until recently the most high profile newspaper supporter of Julian Assange, arguably the most left leaning newspaper in the western world, a very good newspaper, but even the Guardian has come out and conceded, 'WikiLeaks may have erred in some of it's judgements over where the precise line should be drawn.' Then there's the hypocrisy.

For a transparency organisation WikiLeaks is not transparent. Indeed, WikiLeaks staffers face a 12-million pound penalty if they reveal any information about WikiLeaks day to day operations.

Now, don't take my word for it, take the word of former WikiLeaks authorities themselves. You've probably heard of Daniel Domscheit-Berg. Formerly one of Assanges' closest associates. 'WikiLeaks has become what it despises, a repressive organisation using restrictive contracts to gag its staffers,

cultivating transparency and accountability.

And then there's the former WikiLeaks journalist, James Ball, in the Guardian just last month, 'WikiLeaks needs to get out of the gagging game. Silencing dissent is not just ironic, it's dangerous.' Indeed for a man trying to brand himself as a free speech advocate, Assange seems a little to keen on liable law when it's him using it. Just one more point on hypocrisy. We all know that WikiLeaks is focused on the United States. But will it trouble the closed tyrannies of China, of Burma and North Korea? Where democracy is denied and human rights are repressed? Surely what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Finally, take the argument about democracy.

Now, Assange's supporters say his actions represent a triumph of open governance. is good for the gander. Paradoxically, the lesson here is that the authorities will have to work even harder to keep secrets in the internet era.

Far from leading to more transparency, governments will tighten cyber-security, keep fewer secrets and restrict access to fewer people. Now in some respects, I think a case could be made that this is understandable. The collapse of confidentiality would make the conduct of good government very difficult. In the corridors of power in Washington, Canberra and around the world, leading figures need to be able to exchange ideas, put forward different proposals

and ponder and reject various schools of thought before reaching their conclusion. It's true, many politicians and bureaucrats

Have abused this official state of affairs in the past. And they should meet the full weight of the law when they do so.

But effective policy often requires confidentiality about detail. Why would public servants write sensitive memos if they think their words will make headlines around the world? Just as some measure of privacy is justified in our own private lives, so is a degree of confidentiality an essential tool of government. Take your own private lives.

How would you feel if your work salary was known to everyone? Or if your bank account details were freely known? Or if your private, bitchy, gossipy emails to your colleagues were delivered to other colleagues? Or a little bit of hanky panky on the side was known to everyone, including your other half?

How would you feel if your workplace operated - if everything you did was liable to be made public? Take journalism - which, as Simon mentioned, has been most of my life, professionally. Jonathan Holmes, the distinguished ABC journalist, and the host of the award-winning Media Watch program, just said this recently about Four Corners,

and what it's like to do a Four Corners investigation - just said this recently about Four Corners, you have a reporter, producer, and a researcher, 'Each is likely to conduct off-the-record conversations with dozens of people

in the process of establishing what the truth is likely to be,

what the story should be, and who might be prepared to say what on camera.' Holmes goes on - 'Now, those conversations will be summarised in file notes

and placed in a secure folder on the Four Corners server, so that the other team members can read them.' And he makes this point - 'Imagine if they were made public,

they could be highly compromising for the sources. Now, journalists believe in protecting their sources. How would they feel if this stuff was let out? I'd argue that high-level policy-making is much the same. Imagine if the correspondence between the United States president, John F Kennedy, and his senior advisors at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962 had been revealed? They would have been derided as war mongers and madmen. But thankfully we can judge the Kennedy White House's record by what the president did - avoid a nuclear war with the Soviets - and not by what he and his advisors sometimes thought, or considered, before making their final judgements. And you could say the same thing about many examples in history. Winston Churchill's wartime correspondence, Henry Kissinger's secret visit to Peking 40 years ago, almost to the day.

These are examples where confidentiality correspondence, in discussions with your colleagues is absolutely imperative to the integrity of government and policy-making. Perhaps the WikiLeaks era means things have changed. Perhaps WikiLeaks is an inescapable fallout from the Internet era. Perhaps if something is recorded on the database or transmitted digitally, it is now vulnerable to exposure. Well, if this is the case, all of us should accept that every detail of our private lives is available to anyone with the expertise to hack into the computer systems on which many personal things are recorded. Now, this may be the world that Julian Assange, and the affirmative, want, but let's not pretend it represents a force for the good. (Applause) Tom Switzer, editor of The Spectator Australia at IQ Squared, arguing against the proposition that WikiLeaks is a force for good. And for more of that debate and to see who won you can head to our website.

Next up, the secret lives of the bar dancers of Mumbai. Sonia Faleiro is an award-wining Indian journalist

and contributing editor of Vogue India, who spent five years investigating the lives of the girls who are sold to the bars by their families

or simply trying to climb out of poverty by selling themselves. In conversation at the Sydney Writers Festival,

Sonia Faleiro tells writer and former sex worker, Kate Holden, about her choice to write what's known as, 'narrative non-fiction.' I was wondering if you could just talk a bit about how you've come to write in that genre, in narrative non-fiction, what you think it means? Well, India doesn't have a tradition of narrative non-fiction, so when I started writing Beautiful Thing, when I was conceptualising it,

I was pretty sure that nobody would read it. And that was comforting, because if nobody is going to read your book you can really take as much time as you want. You can linger on it forever, and I did linger for several years.

Look, the reason I chose narrative non-fiction is because, 55% of our population is poor. 8 states in India are poorer than the 26 poorest nations in Africa. So, we live we live with poverty, we live with the sight of poverty.

You know, there is no place in India that you can go to, where you can cocoon yourself from the tragedy of daily deprivation. But becuase it's a daily sighting, I think people protect themselves from it by ceasing, after a point, to see it. And then when you don't see it,

when it's not a part of your conversation, as a reporter, or a writer you don't write about it.

Becuase it doesn't exist for you anymore.

So, your eyes gloss over these images

and what you see instead are the success stories. You know, the call centres and the economic boom, all of which we are very proud of, and are very valid stories to be talked about. But, I felt that there had to be a way to talk about something that is, at the same time, everyday, and at the same time, absolutely not ordinary and everyday.

Becuase a lot of, sorry just to interrupt, but a lot of Indian literature that Australians are familiar with is fabulous literature, Salman Rushdie and people like him.

Who write a kind of extravagant version of India, which is very far removed, it might have incorporated aspects of poverty and real life,

but it's very kind of elaborated and baroque almost, and yet your book is extremely concrete. You know, I respect that sort of writing, and it certainly is valid for them, and for people who read that. But that's not the world that I see. And what narrative nonfiction does, it allows me to understand the society that can create somebody like me, that can create somebody like Leela, almost in unequal measures.

And express it in a way that illicits the response that I had. You know, very immediate, very visceral sort of - Well I dont want to say the book is unforgettable, but certainly my experiences were unforgettable, and I wanted to find a way to tell that story without making it dull, you know? Yes. Well it's not dull, but you had a lot of experience writing about, kind of, the dispossessed in India. You've made a career out of looking at a lot of different aspects of that kind of life. What were you expecting to find in the bars do you think? Or what drew you there, and how were your expectations changed or confirmed? Yes, I was writing about marginalised communities for several years, but what happened with Leela, a few months after I met her, the state government of Maharashtra, which Bombay is the capital,

That their dancing, fully clothed on a stage, was somehow contributing to the fall in morality levels of the youth, and it was connected to the underworld,

and it was connected to corruption, ridiculous little theories that were thrown out. And within three or four months of these declarations, the government shut down dance bars. So Leela and about 70 or 75,000 girls like her were forced onto the streets. And I can say that with a certain sense of surety, becuase these girls came from caste that were traditionally depressed. And they did not have an education, they had no skills. So, of course they are going to do what makes them the quickest money. Yes. So, many of them ended up in various forms of sex work. And you know there is a whole hierarchy of sex work and sex workers in Bombay. That's fairly distinct to the city. So, despite having studied this, and written about matters like this in the few years proceeding, the descent from that, sort of, successful life that she had, to the brutality of where she was dragged down to,

the descent from that, sort of, successful life that she had, was so immediate and so absolute that I really couldn't believe it. And again, just to re-iterate, in Bombay, you see this all the time.

And yet having seen it, for me to feel like I really couldn't sleep at night,

I felt that there had to be a way to chronicle this. Becuase of Leela's gender and becuase of her class, this was something she expected, and something that was almost taken for granted - that she would be marginalised. And we do it repeatedly and I just didn't want us - I didn't want to forget. So it's a tribute in a way? There's a line that Leela says towards the end of the book, I was just reading and she says something about -

There's a line that Leela says towards the end of the book, 'destiny is stronger than iron, it's tougher than steel.' And she says, 'I always felt this was my destiny,' to you know, end up where she is. And at the very end of the book - I wont spoil what happens, but you know, things have taken a rather surprising turn at the end. But she is an extraordinary character becuase she exemplifies the downward pressures of the cultural and societal system that shes in. That she comes from a fairly poor family, shes abused in several ways by her father, and she ends up taking sanctuary in the bars. And then yet again,

circumstances out of her control determine her destiny for her. Yet, she is this irrepressible person,

she's completely indomitable, even when she is absolutely degraded in some ways, but she's just got this incredible spirit. Um, I'd like to actually just back track a little bit before we get into the fabulous Leela, but I think I should explain to the audience that one of the great delights of this book is the reportage element, and a lot of that is the dialogue.

The dialogue is absolutely insistent, it got into my head. I went around speaking Leela-speak for days afterwards or trying to. And I was looking for a passage in the book that would really encapsulate the way, especially the women, there are three main female characters - Leela, her mother Apsara and her friend Priya,

they have these fantastic conversations. Their conversations were a little bit long to read, but I thought I'd get Sonia to read a little bit of dialouge between herself and Abid Khan, a gentleman who features in the book. So if you wouldn't mind reading that passage? Sure. 'Do you visit Dance bars?' I asked, watching Leela's retreating back. Abid Khan sat up. 'Bar ladies are devil-women I tell you,' he said, vigorously. 'It's true what they say, If you visit a ladies bar, you'll be ruined.' 'How so?' 'You go there for some fun, am I right? You have drinks, you become high, you become high, you become horony.' 'Horony?' 'Yes, wanting sex - horony, you don't know horony?' 'Um...yes?' 'Yes you know horony?' 'What horony, horony?' Grumbled Masti,'leave her alone.' 'Are you yourself Horony? the way you are looking, talking, making eyes at her?' 'No sweetie, nothing like that, I'm just explaining. See, you become high, you become horony, am I right? You become horony you want sex? You want sex you need a girl. But these bar dancers, oh let me tell you, they are not of flesh and blood. They are entirely of Nakra.

In a certain kind of bar, one of them will sit next to you and she will say, 'hello handsome, can I use your cell?' Or 'Hey sweetie, how are you?' And naturals, you get excited. But the moment you say,

'hello beautiful, want to come to a hotel with me?' She will start to make all sorts of sounds and faces, like she is a movie star, and you are asking for an autograph in the middle of her eating time. And her starting rate is so high an Ambani only can (beep) her. How much would a girl like that ask for? Any amount that enters her head, sometimes 4000 rupee, sometimes 5000 and that doesnt include the fee for the lodge,

and for all the food she'll make you buy her,

like shes a half starved goat. And not only is she over-priced, shes much too sharp, sharp as a draw full of knifes. I tell you sometimes, I feel sorry for these girls, but then one of them plays me for a fool and I realise (speaks in Hindi) - The buffalo has gone into the water. There's nothing I can do for her, she is a hopeless case. Thank you. Thanks. I've got to just ask, how did you get that kind of dialouge on the page? I'm so envious of your ability to do it. Can I ask how - How were you relating to the people when you were having these conversations? Did you have a little recorder, were you keeping mental notes, was it just simply the flavour of the experience that stayed with you? Well, you know, I speak Hindi fluently, so i didn't imagine that it would be a problem.

But it was, becuase like I said, they had their own twist on language. They have this fantastic patois, they say, 'don't take tension,' all the time. I love that, and you know I really, some really salty language, that would make my eyes water, and my ears turn red. But, I think, after a while - well I used to do a lot of recordings I take a lot of notes, and after a while you just get into the swing of things becuase the language has a marvelous rhythm to it, and really it speaks to their experience and to the life they have, so it's important for me to put that on the page. It almost felt that if I didnt, it would just make them regular. And they weren't for me. No, it's kind of aspirational language in some ways, isn't it, so for example someone who is very kind of classy looking is 'Hi-fi,' and they're always, kind of, trying to appropriate these terms and then knitting it into their own dialect,

and their own set of significance which is part of the story. I mean, Leela is not poor a lot of the time, she makes all this money, and then it's strange because she comes from a poor background, and her life is so precarious. But then she just has money and she has thousands of clothes, she has a wardrobe full of t-shirts and little phones - she's this kind of beautiful gazelle.

I can imagine her with long legs and her high heels. She has all these kind of swayings, these desperately infatuated men and she rings them up, and demands that they bring her take-away food, and then she leaves it in the fridge and it just all rots -

And vegetables. And vegetables. She's just a maniac for collecting vegetables. At the same time she's got this great sense of humour, and she is just such a character, but she is also tremendously vulnerable in ways. And at one point she talks about being an 'alone-girl.' She says, 'people will take advantage of an alone-girl.' And yet she sometimes makes herself lonely.

And I guess this is one of the paradoxes of that life, is that she has to rely on other people to support her in lots of ways, She has this coatery of male followers, she has a husband, um, Picheti, and she has female friends, but at the same time she has to constantly make sure everyone understands who she is, and she has to be harsh on other women that she works with. And isolate herself so she is always maintaining her spot. Could you talk a little bit about the female competition in the book? Because it's an extremely dynamic, competitive world between the women, within and beyond the hierarchies that exist in the sex industry.

Yeah, there are communities in India that encourage - actually the real word would be 'force,' their children, at least one of the girl children into the entertainment profession. So, you have a caste for example, like the Kalbelia, that let their children into theatre or street performance so from the age of three a child will start performing on the trapeze, on the street and earning money. And the child will perform until she is about 13-years-old, and then she is considered too old, she's not going to attract an audience because she's too big. And so then she's taken off that trapeze, and then she has to marry and bare children and then that child, again when the child is three years old, starts. So then, in these communities, one of these girls will enter the street performance dancing, and these all, in some way or the other, loosely connected to sex work or they will go into straight up sex work. But there is a sense of the woman, of the girl, from a very young age, as being the provider. She supports the family.

And while she supports the family, the rest of the family essentially just sits around. So you can visit these little villages and you will see in the house, there are grown men and women just sitting around, doing nothing, just chatting. There's a scene where her brothers ring her up and comfort her, and say go and buy yourself a little treat as if they're paying for it, but it's her money she's been sending back to them. Absolutely, so these women understand they're the bread earners, they realise it gives them a measure of power, and a measure of control and it's their security. So they don't end up competing with other men, they end up competing with other women. And they're all competing for the same thing.

It's ironic, becuase they are essentially competing to support their families, the families that are constantly extracting money from them, abusing them. And when they are older, for example when a bar dancer gets ready to retire, which might be in her thirties, or maximum early forties, often she cant go back to the village she came from becuase shes considered a sex worker. So the same family who have benefited from her for decades, will not permit her to return because they say, 'Well, I'm sorry, you're a blight on our name, this is getting embarrassing.' 'You've ruined your reputation'

Becuase she can't earn money so she's no longer useful. Sonia Faleiro, author of Beautiful Thing, portrait of a Bombay bar dancer, speaking there with Kate Holden. Finally today, global cyber crime. Eugene Kaspersky is co-founder of the highly successful Kaspersky Lab, which produces and licenses security software for personal computers. On a recent visit to Australia, Kaspersky shared his ideas in a keynote at NICTA's Big Picture Seminar including his controversial suggestion for Internet passports to improve security. He started by trying to get audience members

to fess up to being former computer hackers.

(Thick Russian accent) There is also another group of bad guys. I call them hacktivists, which develop malware which attack Internet resources because of political or religious reasons. So, they don't do that for profit. In fact, they destroy or they change the information for an idea.

And now there are other sources of malware, of cyber attacks. That's governments or secret services or anti-government organisations. And we have the first example of such malware - Stuxnet. Does everyone here in the room - who doesn't know? Anyone here who never heard about Stuxnet? OK, so Stuxnet, that's a new malware, it was found last year, summer last year, and it was designed to destroy nuclear facilities in Iran. Malware which managed to infect computers in a nuclear - ah, what's that? I'm not native English speaker.

Ah, uranium enrichment centrifuges, in Natanz, the Iranian nuclear station. And the virus was designed to infect computers there

and to modify their industrial computer systems,

which manage the rest of the process. So, that was a virus to damage industrial systems. And, as far as I know, they did it. So that was a - I think, that was several million dollars project to develop such a malware. Some sources say that that was a project which was made by Israeli secret services and United States. That's the first example of their cyber weapon. That was an act of cyber sabotage, or, well, cyber terrorism or cyber sabotage or cyber war. That depends from which side of the picture you're watching this.

(Audience members chuckle) So, there are new sources of malware. Fortunately we don't have many incidences, but I'm afraid that's just the beginning of the story and I'm afraid that governments and anti-governments will use malware and IT systems to attack their... ..critical industrial infrastructure. So, everyone is under attack - it's not just individuals, not only businesses, not only governments, but also industrial systems. And actually, we depend on the Internet - well, we're in the Internet, all of what we do, most of what we do directly or indirectly depends on the computer systems. And unfortunately, it's a very insecure environment. So, is it possible to design secure environment? I think yes. And in my presentation, at the end of my presentation, I have some ideas about that. But before that, I just want to explain how deep we are in the Internet, in their digital networks. Everything is online. Governments, they dream about online elections, about online government systems, and it's not a question - do they want or not want to do that, to be online? The reality is that new generation - kids, they're 100% online.

Kids will never go to election offices.

They will want to have it online. You have kids, you know that - 'Hey,why don't you go to the street to meet your friends?' 'I don't want to go to the street because my friends are online!'

'Hey,why don't you go to the street to meet your friends?' (Audience laughter) They live online. So if we don't have - in 15, 20 years, if we don't have secure online election system, that's the end of democracy. They will never go to election office. Never. Forget about it. So, government will be 100% online very, very soon, because it's reality. It's like a flood in Queensland - yes, they're far away from you, but - Ah, businesses, of course, yes. Only illegal businesses can stay away from Internet and from computer systems. Ah, games. Yeah.

And congratulation about the new Duke Nukem release. I read the news. That was my favourite game. Ah, and after all, I don't play computer games, so maybe I will get back with that. Knowledge, education. How many people in the room opened their paper printed, in circulation, this year?

OK, I'm in a university, I'm sorry! (Laughter) How many people in the room never visited Wikipedia this year? Much, much less. That's online. And you know it better than me, than I do. visited Wikipedia this year? How many people don't have accounts in the social networks? Oh! That's a good result. That's a good result. Cool. How many people have a accounts in two or more social networks? (Chuckles) How many people have accounts in five or more networks? What do you do in your office? (Audience laughter) Could we please have a list of the names? I want to report that. (Laughter) OK, I know that man, so you don't need to put him on the list. I know this man. Well, the private lives as well, because there are pictures, videos, portrayals, everything is digital. And everything is online. Everything is online, and unfortunately, including cyber crime. The criminals are online as well and cyber crime, Everything is online, and unfortunately, including cyber crime. online crime is global. It's everywhere. So there are pictures of people who are arrested. That's why we know these people. The man from Taiwan, ah, Algeria, as far as I remember - I don't remember - United States, Israel, I don't remember, ah, these two from Russia, they are not arrested. As far as I know they are still wanted by Russian police. They just escaped. if you see these people on the streets of Melbourne -

(Audience laughter) It's everywhere. And the main source of malware - I'm not talking about all cyber crime, I'm just talking about malware. Actually, we can recognise the language, which is spoken by a person who developed the malware. So, most malware speaks Chinese. So, Chinese is one of their - well, it's their source number one. And again, we're not sure about the country, we're sure about the language which is spoken by the malware author. So, that could be China, or maybe Singapore, maybe Malaysia, maybe Australia. The second sources are Spanish and Portuguese speaking countries, mostly Latin American, mostly Brazil, but Spain, Portugal as well. Also, Spanish speaking countries, such as California, Texas - (Audience chuckles)

Florida. And, I'm sorry about that, the third source, and the most complicated malware is from Russian speaking countries. Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Baltic countries - New York, Seattle - (Laughter) There were groups of Russian cyber criminals which are American - they were arrested in New York. Russian digital security expert, Eugene Kaspersky, on global cyber crime. And that's it for today's short cuts from Big Ideas. Remember, you can find all of the talks you've seen today, and more besides, at the Big Ideas website. And look out for our lunchtime weekend shows on News24 Saturday and Sunday at 1pm. I'm Waleed Aly, I'll see you then. Closed Captions by CSI THEME MUSIC At the heart of the Renaissance was the city of Florence with its bold classical palaces. Renaissance princes were masters of the use of art and architecture to express wealth and power and they were great patrons of the arts.

Without them there would have been no Renaissance. This is particularly true of the mighty Medici family who lived here. The Medici princes ruled Florence on and off for over 300 years until the middle of the 18th century. It was the Medici dynasty that brought about our wonder - the Medici Chapel. It was created by Michelangelo in the 1520s. The ceiling of the chapel is a copy in miniature of the Pantheon dome, a building which Michelangelo described as "of angelic design." It was commissioned by Cardinal Giulio Medici as a great mausoleum for his family. By controlling the light using muted colours to pick out the sculptures, Michelangelo set the mood for this sombre place of death.

The focus of the building is a pair of memorials to members of the Medici family.

One of these sombre figures leans on a self-portrait of Michelangelo, looking wizened by time. When Michelangelo was working on these he was in a potentially dangerous dilemma himself. Florence was in the grip of a power struggle.

The people of the city, the Republicans, had risen up against the Medici tyranny. Michelangelo also supported the Republic against the Medicis. He was effectively fighting against the very family he was working for and who, if they won, he feared, would put him to death. But the love of art must have triumphed because in the end, Michelangelo was able to complete this wonderful work unharmed by Medici vengeance. Closed Captions by CSI

This Program Is Captioned

Live. Australian stocks hit again

after Wall Street becomes fall

street. The worst day on US

markets since the depths of the

GFC. It was much more brutal

than we thought. It was a than we thought. It was a much

bigger sell-off. No matter what

some agency may say, we've

always been and always will be a

a triple A company. London

burns. A third night of burns. A third night of rioting

spreads into the suburbs and

beyond. There is no excuse for violence no, excuse for looting, no excuse looting, no excuse for thuggery. And SPC Ardmona in

the Goulburn Valley downsizes.