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(generated from captions) by the Lord Chamberlain unless it was read and passed and they had very, very strict rules when we first went over and I remember we were interviewed read the play, and the interviewer I had and read it and she said, had got a copy of the play is gonna pass this. "I can't see that the Lord Chamber to get away with it." I can't think you're going I don't know whether it had to do But of course, was presenting the play with the fact that Laurence Olivier they didn't understand or maybe perhaps even and the meaning of the play a lot of the slang in England. but certainly, we didn't cut a word It was played just as it was. Now it's a nostalgic piece. it was steamy realism, I suppose. But in those days, generally was turning I think that probably theatre in that direction of realism. Jacqui Mapoon Closed Captions by CSI -

This Program is Captioned Live.

The death toll has been climbing in

Cambodia this morning. So far at

least 339 people have been killed in

a stampede in the capital Phnom Penh.

Thousands of people were enjoying

last day of the annual Water Thousands of people were enjoying the on an island in the city, when panic last day of the annual Water Festival

spread through the crowd. People

rushed to the nearest bridge where

they were caught and trampled

death. State television they were caught and trampled to

death. State television said at

240 of the dead were women. The death. State television said at least 240 of the dead were women.

operation to rescue

operation to rescue New Zealand's

trapped miners has suffered

trapped miners has suffered a blow.

robot sent in to the shaft to take trapped miners has suffered a blow. A

beca photos has broken down apparently

because it wasn't water proof. We

have been in contact with our

colleagues in America in an effort

to bring an advanced robot from

there and parallel to that we are to bring an advanced robot from negotiating with Western Australia

there. A ventillation shaft being

drilled down into the mine should

reach its

reach its destination this afternoon.

Parts of the Croatian city of

Dubrovnik have been left underwater

after severe flash flooding. Shops

cafes and roads in the historic town

were flooded. School children were

told to stay at home because power

dis supplies and transport routes were

disrupted. And what's claimed to be

the

the largest satellite ever sent into

space has been launched by the

States. The spy satellite was sent space has been launched by the United

aloft on board a Delta IV

the US Airforce says it's a aloft on board a Delta IV rocket but

classified mission. More ABC news at midday.

(Theme music) to the Best of Big Ideas Hello and welcome for this week. I'm Tony Jones. a less than optimistic view On today's show, through German eyes. on the future of Europe and Islam collide. How Malaysia's secular state the Hipper than Thou are into, Plus an hilarious update on what like raw milk, for example. has hit Australia yet I don't know if this trend are now trying to buy milk but white people directly from the cow's udder without pasteurisation. And it's illegal in the United States on street corners in Brooklyn so white people are gathering from illicit milk dealers. to be given raw milk (Laughter) We are really doing this the other ridiculous one and then that also ties into don't vaccinate their children. where white people This is a new thing they like die from contaminated milk and polio so apparently we want to

for no logical reason whatsoever! More from Christian Lander white people like and his ever-expanding list of stuff a little later. much had it First, though, have we all pretty with party politics? Rarely is there commentary these days disenchantment of the voting public. without some reference to the In this year's annual Hawke Lecture, Geoff Gallop former West Australian premier disenchantment asked whether political

a system change. is an issue requiring What is political disenchantment? of this phenomenon Digging beneath the surface we see two sets of attitudes, another about the system. one about the politicians, in politicians, What we see is declining trust cynicism about their motives,

concern about their behaviour, about the capacity of the system and/or disillusionment to deliver good results. necessarily means disengagement However, none of this from the political process or voting informal. by opting out, not voting

Cynicism and disenchantment with apathy or despair. don't automatically link

Indeed it may be linked of activity to greater and different levels

in the interests of change. But back to disengagement. we might call active citizenship. It is the opposite of what of involvement with their parties, It may be that electors drop out in what is happening in politics take little interest and stop voting or vote informal. I include voting informal it may be a form of political protest but acknowledge that for some into action. to shame the political class What it does mean, however, of the representational value is a diminution of our political system of the all-important link and a weakening between civil society and government, institution of compulsory voting. so strongly supported by our

is a cause for concern Such political alienation that warrants attention, to believe even if one is not inclined is on the course of self-destruction. that our democracy alienation, disenchantment, There are those that think

destruction of our democratic system. step by step we lead to the

we are on the edge of the precipice. I, for one, don't believe and I'll go onto that soon I do recognise problems and can see a way through this. for my confidence in the future But part of the reason disenchantment that we've seen is that a good deal of the into disengagement. has not yet translated For all of its weaknesses, with those seeking change, Australian democracy is robust full of energy and action. Such pressure from without should force a rethink of Australian politics. My confidence, however, is qualified. What we need to analyse is what is being proposed by way of change, and whether or not it will achieve what is being sought. So too do we need to ask - even if the proposed reforms could achieve their intentions are there other negative consequences that should be part of the - that should be taken into account in our calculations?

In other words, we need not just to analyse the viability but also the desirability of the proposed changes. In saying this I have to reveal a bias, a bias towards one of the major parties

but to one of the major parties in general. This should come as no surprise. After all I did work as a Labor parliamentarian for 20 years, a local councillor for three and a party activist for a decade prior to that, including a brief stint as an organiser for the Miscellaneous Workers Union. I do have loyalties and I do have an ongoing belief that the Labor versus Liberal division does have meaning and is still important in giving context to our day-to-day arguments about our policy directions for the future. What we also need to understand is that the mixture of the disenchanted voters

and the disengaged voters is not consistent or uniform. In fact, there is a fundamental divide here which is as important as the divide I mentioned earlier between the conservatives in the major parties mainly and the radicals from the outside seeking change. Disenchantment has its own divisions and internal tensions. There is what I would call a Left-Green as opposed to a right-populist, form of disenchantment. The Left-Green movement seeks fundamental change in the political system including proportional representation for the House of Representatives. They are republicans and supporters of human rights legislation and a re-prioritised public policy agenda that replaces economic rationalism with the principles and practices of sustainability. The unfettered capitalism associated with globalisation is the target of much of their campaigning. Globalisation is also the target for the right-populists. They are less a political movement these days,

particularly since the collapse of One Nation, but more a political tendency active in civil society and in the world of politics. They want strong government based on the will of the majority in areas like law and order, immigration and economic development. For such electors, the republic and human rights legislation are the province of the chattering classes. They see government as having been captured by the middle class, the middle-class liberals at the expense of the working people like themselves, particularly those who live and work outside the major cities.

Some within this right-populist tendency are engaged in the Australian version of the culture wars. For them, politics is about values, independently of the consequences of applying those values, a Judeo-Christian Australia, the right to life, the sanctity of the family, a drug-free community. We have seen faith-based politicians elected to Parliament and strong campaigning around issues like abortion, stem cell research,

euthanasia and same sex-marriage. These populists on the right want to turn the tide of late 20th century Left liberalism. In as much as there's a political program associated with this tendency in politics, it's majority rule and accountability. They want the silent majority to be given a voice

and have, on occasion, flirted with the Swiss model of direct democracy

and its institutions of citizens-initiated referenda and a popular veto power. A less sophisticated but equally powerful version of populist politics is government by opinion poll! Different method but same result - rule by majority opinion at any point in time. Right-populists may be disenchanted with the political culture and system but they are certainly not disengaged. We see their influence in both the major parties, even if more obviously within the Liberal Party since the ascendancy of John Howard. What they have challenged is the bipartisan agenda of progressive social reform associated with Whitlam, Fraser and Hawke. These two forces - Left-Green, Right-populist - have energy and commitment and they're growing in self-confidence and power. They have been outflanking the mainstream political parties, squeezing their support. Politics in Australia is changing. The only question left is how far will the process take us? More important is the question how far should the process take us? This takes me back

to the conservative versus radical interpretation of our current situation. What the evidence tells us is that there is certainly a growing level of disenchantment which is associated with a degree of disengagement. However, it is my view that we need to penetrate deeper below the surface if we are to fully understand this disenchantment. It is a complex process with a range of cross-cutting elements. Already I have mentioned Left-Green and Right-populist. Both disenchanted, both putting pressure on, but that's not the only force

that we see in Australian politics on the side of disenchantment. And inasmuch as there is a program of political reform associated with these two tendencies it is not necessarily the same

as what is in the minds of the people voting, Left-Green or Right-populist or Independent.

These are protest voters as well as conviction voters. Both are in there. Some choose to vote informal or opt out altogether, in fact, and not vote for any of the parties, even the minor parties.

Now, this recognition that there are deeper forces at work than just Left-Green and Right-populist - there's a range of attitudes and convictions and disappointments - takes us - takes me to a fundamental point I want to make this evening. Politics needs to be about leadership as well as responsiveness. Electors want their leaders to stand for something

and to craft a narrative and policy agenda for the future. Part of the disenchantment we see relates to a belief that the political class has been too short-term and risk-averse in its thinking and its practice. Even the language of politics

is seen to have become too managerial and insufficiently ideological. We should consider such criticisms when designing a political reform program.

Take direct democracy, for example. It would certainly give power to the people. No mistake about it.

That's what it is, that's what it would deliver. It would mean majority rule but at what price? Currently we have the very valid requirement that changes in our Constitution must have the support of a majority of electors and a majority of electors in a majority of states. That's a good idea. A Constitution belongs to our people. But to take that idea further, and to put a popular veto on all matters would make legislative change difficult if not impossible. One of the good things about our current system is that it does provide room for change

that may be disapproved of today but accepted tomorrow.

This is how a good deal of economic and social reform has been achieved in the past. Such a leadership function can be best exercised in a representative rather than a direct democracy. We need a system that allows for change. What of the Left-Green agenda of proportional representation? This has been the system in Tasmania since 1909 and has become accepted throughout Europe.

And, of course, after the intense debate about the unfairness of New Zealand's first-past-the-post system, they too changed to proportional representation. There are, of course, many versions of proportional representation and it is not my concern tonight to analyse them. Rather, I would like to address the logic of proportional representation and how it relates to the theme of disenchantment. Proportional representation will certainly give the minor parties a greater say and it will guarantee that there is a balance in the relationship between the votes you get and the seats that you have. Coalition government, or minority government, will become the order of the day. Politics will be more complex and outcomes less predictable. In relation to this let me say two things.

Firstly, I note that we already have proportional representation for our Senate. Smaller parties and Independents have won seats there and come to play a not-insignificant role

in legislation and public policy. Proportional representation is well entrenched and well understood in the electorate. This is reflected in different voting patterns for the House of Representatives and the Senate. Secondly, it would mean that the capacity for a party to form government in its own right would in all probability be lost to the system. It is true that the major parties are under pressure and have been found wanting but do we want a system that would forever prevent them

from achieving a majority presence in the House of Representatives? Systematic change is already difficult to achieve in Australia. Why would we want to make it even harder? Those who advocate change will need a carefully crafted agenda that is relevant, feasible and acceptable. Former WA Premier Geoff Gallop with this year's Annual Hawke Lecture Check out more of that discussion on ABC news 24 or for the full event head to our website at: Next up, what's the future for Europe? At a pannel discussion put on by the Centre for Independent Studies, Dr Oliver Hartwich pointed to the continent's lack of innovation and the exodus of young people as pressing problems. But the German-born economist, writer and media commentator admitted his view may be coloured by the German tendancy towards pessimism, or weltschmerz.

There is no doubt that Europe is living through interesting times' this is, of course, a curse, not a blessing. The last year has been challenging for Europe. Greece nearly defaulted, Spain's banking system is in trouble; Britain's budget deficit has ballooned and cracks have emerged in Europe's common currency.

And yet, what we have seen so far may only be the beginning of a prolonged period of pain for Europe. It is possible, and may even be likely, that Europe will never recover from the financial crisis. I know this sounds utterly pessimistic

and so this may surprise you coming from a German. We Germans, of course, have a reputation of being optimistic, uncomplicated and forward-looking. (Laughter) No, hang on. I must have got that mixed up. The Germans really enjoy indulging in visions of imminent Armageddon, looming disaster and the end of the world. There is a good reason why the English language had to import the wonderful German word weltschmerz, which literally means world-pain or world-weariness.

Oh weltschmerz! Nobody does it better than the Germans.

Forget German engineering, Vorsprung durch Technik or even German beer. If you want to sum up Germany's national character in just one word, it would have to be weltschmerz. The doom and gloom is programmed into the German DNA. In what other language could you scramble words together that contain six consonants in a row? Well, actually the Germans even manage eight consonants one after the other. And that happens to be just another word symptomatic for the German mindset - Angstschweisz,

a combination of angst, anxiety and schweisz, sweat. I think in English

you would simply call this cold sweat, but it has none of connotations of emotional torture as our beloved angstschweisz. Being German thus means inhabiting a world characterized by weltschmerz and angstschweisz. it's not a particularly appealing place, I can tell you. In my next life, I think would like to be Italian or Spanish instead. Of course, life would still be miserable,

but it wouldn't nearly depress me as much.

As they say in Italy, 'Alla fortuna bisogna lasciar sempre una finestra aperta.' You should always leave a window open to fortune. The Germans would never leave any windows open for fear it might rain in. (Laughter) I would probably even settle for being Dutch instead of German.

In many ways, the Dutch are, of course, just like the Germans but at least nobody hates them. (Audience chuckles)

Since I cannot change my German nature too easily, I am afraid you will have to endure my boundless pessimism tonight. So back to the topic - The future of Europe. Or actually, let's be a bit more blunt - The end of Europe. A sober look at the facts and figures of Europe today is enough to understand why there is ample reason for pessimism, even if you are not German. It is well known that European countries are heavily indebted. It is less obvious by how much. Most of the time we are talking about debt, we are not presented with the full picture. The discussion is usually constrained to just the official, headline data for public indebtedness. These figures are scary enough but they are just the tip of the iceberg. Let's look at the United Kingdom, for example. A few days ago, the Office for National Statistics released a working paper under the seemingly harmless title Wider Measures of Public Sector Debt - A Broader Approach to the Public Sector Balance Sheet. They probably made it sound so dull because the content is anything but. The official figure for the United Kingdom's public sector net debt stands at ?903 billion or 62% of its GDP. However, once you consider Britain's hidden burdens,

the numbers change dramatically. After adding the government's exposure to RBS and Lloyds Banking Group, the unfunded public sector pension schemes and the equally unfunded state pensions, various off-balance sheet obligations from private finance initiatives and nuclear decommissioning liabilities and not forgetting miscellaneous guarantees and contingent obligations, the total exposure comes to somewhere between ?3.7 and ?4.8 trillion, that is between 254% and 330% of British GDP.

These figures are closer to the truth about public sector debt in the United Kingdom

although they are still coming out of a government agency. Unfortunately, they still do not adequately reflect the state of public indebtedness.

The reason is Europe's worsening age structure. In a research paper published last year, economists from Munich's Ifo Institute calculated that the UK had explicit and implicit liabilities

of 547% of GDP. The report was however based on 2004 data. A few things in the world of finance have, of course, happened since, so the real figure should be significantly higher today.

How much higher is anyone's guess. But whether it is 600 or 700% of GDP does not really alter the big picture. If it were a private company, the United Kingdom would be bankrupt.

I apologise, of course, to our British friends -

sorry Frank! - for singling out the United Kingdom. Actually, I could have taken almost any other European country. The issues are remarkably similar in all their economies. The levels of public debt have reached staggering dimensions. When we in Australia hear about the European debt crisis, we often fail to realise that the debt issue is not limited just to Greece. Or Spain. Or Ireland. Or Italy. Or Portugal. The acronym for the most indebted countries is getting longer. First it was PIGS with a single I. And then, after they realised they had forgotten Ireland, and it became PIIGS with a double I. But if you actually wanted to create an acronym for all the European countries with serious debt problems,

it would soon become an alphabet soup. Unless you abbreviated it with just two letters - EU. Even Germany, the reluctant saviour of the eurozone,

the lender of last resort to the rest of the continent, is in dire straits. Germany's debt burden has already reached 1.8 trillion euros, or 76% of German GDP.

But again, these official figures exclude pensions and other liabilities. The true figure is not far from the British level. Germany's supposed economic strength should also be questioned. In 45 out of 50 US states, GDP per capita is higher than in Germany. The best thing you can say about Germany

is that in the land of the blind which is Europe, the one-eyed man, Germany, is king. A closer inspection shows Germany to be

neither particularly strong nor healthy. Now all of these figures are frightening. They should be enough to rob any European of his sleep. And yet the real scale of the impending disaster can only be understood if we put public debt levels into the context of Europe's changing demography.

Europe has experienced periods of high debt loads in the past and recovered. Europe's public debt after World War II was about as high as it is today. So should we be worried? Yes. Because between then and now are, there are two important differences. The first difference is obvious - The post-1945 debt burdens had been caused largely by a single event,

the Second World War. Today's debt burdens, on the other hand, have a much more structural character. Far from being created by a single tragic event, they are the result of decades of economic mismanagement. Europeans have become used to living beyond their means, comfortably cushioned from all of life's ills by over-generous welfare states. The only way they could afford this was by piling up enormous amounts of debt

and hoping that their children and grandchildren would eventually pay for it. Which leads me to the second difference between then and now - the post-War debt levels may have been high, but so were economic growth rates. Growth was driven by a young, hungry population that went on rebuilding the continent from the ashes. Today, you would have to look hard to find young, hungry Europeans.

And if you found them, they would not be living in Europe but as expats in America, Asia or indeed Australia. The welfare state has sedated the entrepreneurial spirit in Europe. It's no wonder that there is no European equivalent

to Shanghai, Bollywood or Google. But beyond that, the lack of young Europeans is a simple matter of numbers. In all European countries, birth rates have been below the replacement level

for more than 40 years. It was a development that demographers watched unfold with horror but no-one, least of all the europeen political class, heeded their warnings. Now that the baby boomers are about to retire, the scale of the demographic problem is becoming clear. Here are just a few projections. The working age population of most European countries is shrinking. By 2020, France will lose 5.5% of its working age inhabitants; Sweden will lose 6% and the Czech Republic 8.3%. Or look at it another way. Pension cost as a share of Luxembourg's GDP was 8.7% in 2007. By 2035, it will reach 17%. In Belgium it will rise from 10 to 14% over the same period, in Greece, if you can trust their figures, it will go from 12 to 19%. All these are official forecasts come from the European Union's Ageing Report, so they probably err on the optimistic side. We should also consider the extent to which Europe's population will shrink. The United Nations estimates that the continent could lose about 68 million people by 2060. Germany alone will drop from 82 million inhabitants today to somewhere between 65 and 70 million. By then, there will be as many people in Germany over the age of 80 as there will be people under the age of 20. It does not require any fantasy to imagine what this demographic change means for the continent's growth prospects. It's hard to generate growth with a shrinking population. It is near impossible if the remaining population also gets much older. Sooner rather than later, Europe's demographic decline

will lead to negative economic trend growth. Combine these prospects with Europe's incredibly large public debt, and you will see that for Europe there is no easy, realistic way out. I predict that in the coming decades, we will either see a series of sovereign defaults or accelerating inflation in Europe. Indeed, we may see both. What we have witnessed over the past twelve months in Europe was but a taste of the pain that is yet to come. Europe's economic model,

based on a debt-addicted welfare state and unsustainable population developments is finished. For us in this part of the world, there are obvious lessons to learn about the toxic long-term effects of the welfare state on society, about the necessity of population policy, about the sweet poison of public debt. In many ways, Australia today reminds me of Europe in the first decades of the post-war period. We are full of optimism, our population is growing, our economy is booming. But make the wrong choices about the size of government now, ignore the challenge of population ageing, gloss over temporary problems with public deficits, and just a few decades later, we will end up like Europe.

Under different stars, but with the same destiny. Thank you. (Applause) Oliver Hartwhich,

one of the panellists from the Future of Europe forum in Sydney for the Centre for Independent Studies. Next - the long suffering Malaysian opposition leader, Anwar Ibrahim. The former deputy prime-minister, and current defacto leader of the People's Justice Party,

has been through quite a deal in his campaign to build a prosperous democratic, and just Malaysia. Includes being removed from office, and a jail term on trumped up charges of sodomy. In Malaysia, Anwar Ibrahim is banned from visiting universities, but he did visit Sydney University, recently to speak about the tensions in Malaysia, between democracy, the secular state and Islam.

I've been criticised by my friends and some of my colleagues in the Middle East and the Arab world, saying that you inadvertently, try to portray Islam in the Middle East as something different from the Islam in South East Asia. It's not my intention, certainly, but our cultural political experiences are far different. Look at Indonesia, it's the largest Muslim country in the world. The issue of democracy is not a contentious issue. The Indonesians achieved independence, and organised, managed to successfully organise a free, fair elections in 1955. They don't need 100,000 American troops to tell them what democracy is all about. (Laughter) And the transformation was relatively peaceful. And now if you follow President Obama's speech in Jakarta it's a commendable, well crafted speech. But then he gives tacit recognition on that peaceful transformation, as opposed to the experiment in Iraq and I believe it's going to be a near disaster in Afghanistan. So is the discussion or discourse relevant, to suggest the need for Muslims to debate the issue of Islam versus democracy? Iran, under Mossadiq, was relatively democratic. Hijacked by the oil companies and the British masters, to bring back the Shah.

Iraq, was still relatively peaceful democratic country, in the 1950s. Again, subverted by oil interest, whatever.

And you have Iraq, as you know today. Was there a real battle, contentious debate in the sense that some conservative traditional Islam are opposing democracy, by saying no.

The only thing I heard, is something which is relevant even in the European context, whether it is vox populi or vox populi, vox dei.

Whether the voice of the people ultimately decide

or the voice of the people must replace the voice of God. And I don't think given that the extreme, Europe is generally however secular, would that in every stage, transgress what they would consider as ordained, divine authority. Although there is interpretation there to God. But to tell you in the Islamic context you can find journey, the move, the challenge. Islamic authority of Qur'anic injunctions in all cases, but in practical terms, you have Malaysia, Islam is the religion of federation, most successful in building up the casino industry, far ahead of Singapore. (Laughter) So this is a contradiction. They have massive liquor industry, and the rich and famous in the five to seven star hotels will enjoy themselves with drinks, but they will still decide to kill this girl for drinking a glass of beer, to show just how Islamic they are. But I would see this as how hypocritical they are, and of course this is something that is nothing to do with Islam, except the abuse and the tendency to exploit religion for immediate political gains. I'll have to summarise so that to allow you to ask difficult questions

which Duncan will deal with. I will answer the more general, simple question.

You must remember, you cannot continue to harass me because I go back home, I will be harassed continually. (Laughter) So I'm here to relax. To refer to the issue of Islam democracy, it's very important. It does not actually happen in the Middle East, to my mind. Actually it's cultural, nothing to do with religion. We have two great democracies, Indonesia and Turkey. But to say, in the Muslim heartland, in the Middle East, so tough to promote democracy. And the most authoritarian dictator regimes also very much supported by the United States, which preaching democracy as the pillar for the foreign policy. But still, huge grants to the most authoritarian regimes sometimes to perpetuate these non-autocratic totalitarian repressive policies. But I admit slight reference to the issue of maqasid of the sharia and I think this is an important issue that I and some of the organisers, some involved, including the International Institute for Islamic thought has been encouraging these discussions on the maqasid without understanding the higher objectives of the sharia. Without understanding the sharia and the higher objectives you start thinking only of punitive action the young boy who is supposed to be a muslim, never mind he is a christian, we declare him as a muslim, and therefore we have to cane him for bringing pork to school. I'm not aware of any Sharia principle that would qualify this boy to be caned - nothing in the legislation. For drinking - yes, but even then there are certain procedures, due process which must be observed. I mean this - I'm referring specifically to the issue of Islamic law and legislation, but there's nothing in the Islamic legislation

that could allow the authority to cane a person for taking pork. I'm not encouraging people to take pork, I mean, I don't. Just, because if somebody from the Malaysian press they will report tomorrow. They will say, 'Anwar went to Sydney and clearly said that it's OK to take pork.' (Laughter and applause) The final issue is of course the issue of Islam and again the maqasid - what is the maqasid? The basic principles from the time of... (Speaks Arabic) I'm just throwing these names just to impress Professor Duncan, you don't need to worry about it. (Laughter) Don't ask me questions about that. But what is the maqasid?

It's the principles laid down to be well understood and to be deemed to be relevant in any Muslim society. Promote peace and ensure justice - that is the general framework. And as Muslims of course the protection of religion is important, but it also means that you have to ensure, guarantee freedom of conscience, based on the Qur'anic injunction - (Speaks Arabic) Because people say there's no compulsion in religion. It's true. Why is there no compulsion?

Because you are confident, you have a conviction and you believe that it is right. You disagree - fair. So they say, because there is no compulsion in religion, because you are convinced that what you practice is right, but you have to therefore respect the differences. Because Allah create men, women, people, tribes for what? So that you know, understand. It is not only an issue of racial tolerance, not even understanding, but appreciating one another. Then how do you then have a policy, for example in Malaysia where we consider ourselves moderate Islam that you disallow the promotion of other languages or other cultures?

The Qur'an injunction says, OK, in the Malay (speaks Malay). But the Qur'an injunction says you appreciate. How do you appreciate? You understand and know. You see, I appreciate (speaks Malay). You do need to know them.

'I just appreciate.' 'OK, you go back.' (Laughter) It's complete ignorance. And the worst thing is that you use Malay cultural rationale on an Islamic basis, so the maqasid is the broad principles. Does it conform to the maqasid when you decide to punish this girl for drinking beer? It does not. Why? It's a disservice to Islam. Why? Because there's so much hypocrisy and contradiction. We have a very rich family of the former prime minister.

I wouldn't name who. (Laughter) Really, it's not mentioned the name. Out of respect. (Laughter) You know, I could amass so much wealth buying or controlling state of San Miguel, the largest alcoholic beverages company in the Philippines. So we have this leader not only buying and controlling one bottle of beer

or one carton or one factory - the entire industry. It seems OK, nobody says anything, no mufti, no muslim scholar, no religious authority. But when one girl commits that offence, you decide OK, is that consistent with the higher objective of the Sharia? The answer is no. It just shows so much hypocrisy and here we have to debate weather it is a quasi-secular Islamic moderate state and you go to New York promoting moderate Islam, how do you call yourself a moderate Islam if you discriminate racial groups or communities in your state, if you continue to use repressive laws against your people, if you deny basic principles, fundamental principles, freedom of conscience and freedom of expression?

Malaysia's opposition leader, Anwar Ibrahim speaking at the University of Sydney as a part of Sydney Ideas. Well, finally today - a hipster's guide to being white. Christian Landers set up countless conversations with his blog and book - Stuff White People Like. Readers recognise themselves being skewered in his every paragraph, but what's it all really about? In conversation with TV personality John Safran, Lander unpicks the serious questions of race, class and identity that underpin some of his funny business and shares a few updates for his list. Do you ever find yourself out of the loop of something that white people - No never. Never? (Laughter) Yeah, of course. Because I'm over 30, man. Like, it's all falling apart right now.

And, you know, keeping up with music is exhausting and I always make this joke that after you hit thirty, the passion that you used to put into Indie music, you put into food. (Laughter) And the main reason why, is you can never be the 'old guy' at a restaurant. You know what I mean?

Like, there's no worse feeling than going to see a band and being like - 'Wow I'm the oldest guy here. This is horrible.' Never get that at a restaurant, ever, it's awesome. So I think like music snobbery is then replaced with food snobbery after thirty years old in white culture. (Laughter)

I think that's because alcohol hangovers can be replaced by food hangovers at that age. Yes. I was just wondering if you could summarize maybe your top three 'Stuff That White People Like.' Like, the most ridiculous ones. And if you've got any examples that are hilarious. The...ridiculous ones? Be funny...now! (Laughter)

This is great. I feel like an organ grinder, you know what I mean? No problem.

Um, some of the most ridiculous ones - yoga is still on the list. It is shocking. I think the thing that has killed me the most about yoga it seems like there is never a time when it's not appropriate for a white woman to be wearing yoga clothing. (Laughter) Well, like every day. It doesn't matter. It's like you're going to do yoga at a drop of a hat? So that's gotten a little ridiculous.

And to be honest, it also frustrates me when I find out all these white women who open yoga studios and turn a profit and make a lot of money doing it, that just doesn't seem fair. That one's ridiculous. Fixed gear bicycles is absolutely ridiculous The fact that white people are riding around on these bikes, with no front break and they're thinking - 'Oh, yeah it's for control, man.' And I'm like, 'Really? Adding like, a break that weighs like 400 grams is because of control? Well, have fun hitting the side of a streetcar.' That's ridiculous. You're endangering lives for vanity is unbelievable. And the other one - this is in the new book - is raw milk. I don't know if this trend has hit Australia yet. But white people are now trying to buy milk directly from the cow's udder, without pasteurisation. And it's illegal in the United States. So white people are gathering on street corners in Brooklyn, to be given raw milk from illicit milk dealers. (Uproarious laughter) We are really doing this and then that also ties into the other ridiculous one - which is where white people don't vaccinate their children.

This is a new thing they like. Apparently we want to die from contaminated milk and polio. For no logical reason whatsoever. It's like the 19th Century - you know all those people that didn't die - '(Bleep) you,' Right? (Laughter) As white people it is our right to die the way our ancestors did. It blows my mind. And this the same way I feel about camping, by the way. Sorry, there's lots of things I'm angry about. I hate camping with a passion. Because I think anytime you camp, you're literally spitting in the face of your ancestors because they died to get out of nature. They were like - 'This is a hell hole, there are bears here, we're pooping in the ground there is nothing to eat, this is terrible' And we are going to go right back in? No. Unacceptable. My ancestors left that and I am not going back. So, those are the ones that I think are fairly ridiculous, and the examples speak for themselves. Yeah? Um, you spoke about regional white people in the US, have you picked up any particular white-people-isms in Australia? Yes, I...one thing I learned when I was in Sydney - apparently they passed a law that the second you give birth to a child, you have to wear black stretch pants, for the next 9 months. (Chuckles) And it's definitely being enforced. I don't think I saw one woman pushing a stroller without black stretch pants on. that was definitely one of the bigger ones, But I mean Australians and Canadians you know we're very similar people.

So a lot of the stuff really matches up. But, there is an Australian entry in the new book, for the regional guide to white people. And the line drawing I have is

it's cargo shorts, Blundstone boots and an enormous backpack. Because I have been to Thailand before, I know what is going on. I wonder if there will be a backlash? Everyone in Australia when there was the Australian Simpsons episode...

Uh-huh. So everyone in Australia was laughing at the Simpsons for like seven years up until -

'Ha ha ha, they're really sunk them!" Then the Australian episode, we're like, 'Hang on. They haven't got that right! That's not funny.' Oh, so now you know what it is like to be a Canadian. (Laughter) 'Aboot' We've been dealing with this for quite some time, so... ...my advice is let it go. I always knew something was up with white people at the birth of rap music. Yeah. I was obsessed with rap music when I was a kid. Black music that black people don't listen to anymore is on the list of stuff white people like. And I noticed that white people were kind of obsessed with pretending rap was something it wasn't. So like 99% of rap was like -

'Hey I'm poor, I'd like to be rich mother(beep)' You know, so basically, you're going to go, it's like capitalist, pro-capitalist. But everyone likes to pretend it was like Black Panther or something, that sort of 99% of rap wasn't. And then in Australia the guy who really hit it was, like, Michael Franti. Who black people don't like - Yeah, of course. White people do like him. But black people, no! Yes, that's what we want - the one who's against the Gulf War and stuff. (Laughter) Yeah, I can't imagine the frustration you must feel sort of a black nationalist and white people with dreadlocks show up. It's like... (Laughs) ..'This was not my stated purpose.' (Laughter) This is more of an issue in the United States than in Australia, but like, you talk about class and in the United States there's that concept of white privilege... Yes. ..where middle-class people

are surrounded by a whole range of institutions, you know, the suburbs, their parents have good professional white collar jobs and they go to good schools, they go to graduate schools, and all of that. How does that that - how do white people insulated by all of these sort of institutions how do they perceive people who don't have these sort of protections and safeguards and that sort of thing like minorities, blacks, latinos

and how do they view them from the prism of white middle-class security and how does your blog address the issue of white privilege... Uh-huh. Yeah. ...because it's a piss take, it really is a piss take, but do people turn around and say hey, there's broader issues of white white privilege and institutions that are available to white people and white educated people that aren't necessarily available to minorities like, you know, the access to HMO's and to good healthcare and to good educational institutions and colleges. Do you want the reaction from the wrong-kinda-way people or the right-kinda-way people? Whatever suits you. Alright, so the wrong-kinda people is (bleep) 'em. That's their response to people, dead serious, I mean, there's this huge amount of rage among right wing Americans towards the concept of white privilege, they think, 'Doesn't count, doesn't apply to me, I work hard for what I have, everything's equal, everything's fine.' And they honestly, dead-serious believe that.

They're like, 'Slavery ended 100-200 years ago, I don't see why this is still an issue.' They honestly and truly still believe this

and they don't want to recognise that white privilege exists. Now on the left, recognising white privilege is a little bit different. We recognise it and the solution is just to feel really, really guilty and spend as much time as possible proving we're not racist. And so it's unbelievable, what some white people do is start to treat minorities like Pokemons... (Laughter) ..you know, you have to collect them all, eventually. And unfortunately we haven't reached a point yet where you can trade races to fill out your menagerie, it's like, 'Well I have three asian friends, I'd like to trade them for a Haitian, we don't have that yet.'

So ultimately it's this guilt that we still feel

and this need to prove that we're not racist

but at the same time, the genuine sacrifices that are gonna come to end white privilege aren't being made, you know, we're legitimately - really for it to change, you're gonna have to start accepting, 'You know what, I'm not gonna get into this college or I'm not gonna get into this university because I'm white' and that's a legitimate sacrifice and one that white people aren't ready to make yet. And so it's a really tough solution so you have people who refuse to recognise white privilege exists, and others who recognise it and simply feel guilty about it and won't do anything about it. So it's a really tough scenario right now and so one of the things about my blog and my book that I'm really happy is able to do is that when you try to explain this concept to college students a lot of the time, just the idea of white privilege, they really, they hate it. They honestly hate to even think that it exists. So when you present it to them as humour, to get them to even think for a second that you do have some inherent advantages to being born white in America, it's a positive thing. So I'm really happy when I hear about teachers' assistants and professors who use the blog to at least get the discussion started and I don't think I'm anywhere near the expert on this, there's much more intelligent people writing much more intelligent books on the subject but to at least get it started is one thing I'm actually really, really proud of. I'm really happy that people can at least start talking about it. But again, I don't know what the solution is and I don't know how to fix it,

but I would definitely take guilt over, you know, confrontational anger. Now, what are some issues that are gonna short-circuit white people?

I'm thinking in Australia, we've recently had the Greens versus the Indigenous Australians...+ Yeah. ..If there's Indigenous Australians who wanna do - It's like the sentence that breaks an android. I know in your homeland, in Canada, there was Inuits who were slaughtering seals. Yeah it's sort of that awkward moment where white people are like

'now look, we don't want to tell you what to do with your land... ...cause we sort of did that once before and it didn't work out

very well, but we're kind of going to have to do it again.' And so it is a very awkward moment for white people to try and figure out. Maybe they can just blame the Mormons. Yeah that'd be great, we can just bring Mormons into the situation to be scapegoats forever, perfect. But yeah, that's one of the problems of white people, one that will break them. Do you go organic or do you go local?

For food. That's the one. Do I take the organic food from Chile or do I take the non-organic stuff that's grown outside the city, and like, that can keep a white person up for days and possibly even weeks on end, trying to determine what's the case, issues like 'is honey vegan or not?' These are some of the pressing white issues of our time. Christian Lander, the author of 'Stuff White People Like' sharing his witticisms with John Safran, at the Wheeler Centre in Melbourne. Remember, no matter your skin colour or hipster credentials you can find all of these talks and more on the Big Ideas website. And look out for more of our Extended Mix shows on News24 Saturday and Sunday at 1pm. I'm Tony Jones, until next time.

(Captioned by CSI)

This Program is

Captioned Live.

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