Note: Where available, the PDF/Word icon below is provided to view the complete and fully formatted document
Disclaimer: The Parliamentary Library does not warrant the accuracy of closed captions. These are derived automatically from the broadcaster's signal.
Lateline -

View in ParlViewView other Segments

(generated from captions) follows allegations about the

misuse of union

former union leader and now MP

current Craig Thomson and the union's

current national President and

senior ALP figure Michael

council Williamson. Today's union

council meeting has only highlighted the divisions

within the union, with national secretary Kathy Jackson vowing to

to get enough member's

of the resolutions made today significants to

and get an independent union inquiry under way. Tonight

Kathy Jackson claims her access

to the union computers is being denied. Late this afternoon

the database in the Melbourne

office was destabilised, no

staff in Victoria has access to

the database. I find that totally, totally reprehensible.

This is a database run by Mr

Williamson, united edge, yet

database went late this afternoon the

no answers from Sydney. HSU National Secretary, Kathy

Jackson, joins us shortly.

Zahra Baker's First our other headlines.

stepmother to serve 14 years in

prison for second degree

murder. The world's five largest Central Banks throw a

lifeline to Europe's debt-laden

economies. And standing by

Syria - Russia won't endorse sanctions against Damascus

because it's a valuable customer for Russian arms. The

Prime Minister has thrown her

weight behind an overhaul of

the Labor Party. Julia Gillard

wants new rules to double membership recruitment and give

members a say on the party's

direction, but just as she

outlined her plan, the ALP was

shrinking, a major union embroiled in a police

investigation has sefrd ties

with Labor, taking tens of

thousands of members and

potential donations with it. Here's chief political

correspondent Mark

shadow of Labor giants. Julia

Gillard unveiled a statue of

two Prime Ministers past - John

Curtin and Ben Chifley. They were Labor politicians.

There's every chance they were

talking about how to manage their colleagues. The current Prime Minister is talking about

the same thing. Some hold that

the historic structures of the

Labor Party are sufficient to the complex and personalised

politics of today. I do and falling membership, Julia not. Faced with poor polling

Gillard wants to shake up her

party. She's proposing giving non-party members a say candidate selection through

US-style primaries, doubling

recruitment to 8,000 new

members a year, and in a slap

at her predecessor, a less choreographed national

conference. I am determined

that we have a fair-dinkum

Labor Party conference, not an American-style convention. I

want there to be debates, I

want there to be votes, I want there to factions don't like surprises,

and there is likely to be

resistance, especially to the idea of primaries. Ultimately it's about money politics, it it's about

can lead to the most corrupt

practices. I look forward

under that system to meet the

new mayor dailies of

Chicago. Julia Gillard wants to

broaden the party's base, but

as she spoke it suddenly shrank. The Health Services

Union cut ties with Labor,

taking the union's donations

and members with it. The HSU

It's facing a police is

investigation into claims of

credit card misuse. In a sign

of the internal turmoil, the

national secretary launched a

savage attack on another top official, who sits on the ALP's national

national executive. I am sick

to death of people in the ALP,

certain individuals in the ALP

- they know who they are -

using the HSU as a political

football. The whole saga is a

free kick for Tony free kick for Tony Abbott. As

we just heard, the Health

its affiliation with the ALP.

To discuss this and the ongoing

investigations into the union's

finances, I was joined earlier

from Melbourne by the national

secretary of the Jackson. Kathy Jackson, welcome to 'Lateline'. Thank

you, Ali. HSU is a very big union, choosing to cut ties

with the ALP on the very day

the Prime Minister talks about

the need to reform the party

and actually grow the

membership, was it the right

decision to dis affiliate? I

to disaffiliate, but for think it was the right

different reasons of why I

think that's occurred.

Firstly, I think that the disaffiliation should have happened, but I should have happened the way it

did happen. I think this is

another Sussex Street special

where they think they can

disaffiliate and then, once all

this heat is off the

Government, Sussex Street boys

will go back - have the union

going back into the ALP. I was

seeking we disaffiliate, but if we are

refillation must go to a vote

of the membership. That motion was defeated, it wasn't even argued. You're supporting what the Liberals are saying, they're claiming this was to

shield Labor from collateral

damage? Well, I believe so.

It gives me no pleasure to say

that. I think that the right

thing was to disaffiliate, but

not to shield the Government,

but to disaffiliate for the

right reasons, which is the

members want answers. If Mr giving answers, then the union

members deserve answers. By

disaffiliating - That's always

been our position. You think by disaffiliating, you'll greater clar fi for your disaffiliating, you'll get

members? I believe so. The

if we members also need to understand

if we are to refillate, that

has to be a membership vote.

It cannot be the Sussex Street

boys going back into - giving

the union back to the ALP.

That's not how it works. I'm wondering how disaffiliation

What does it give you as an advantage, what does it give

members as an advantage? I

think it's a total red herring.

I think they've thrown it in thinking thinking that Kathy Jackson

will back off, she won't be a member of the administrative

any committee of the Labor Party or

any other forum. I do not seek

that, I don't seek

preselection, I don't seek to be on the Labor Party administrative committee. I

am. I am there at the moment representing members of the

union. If that's - if they

is fine. don't want us to be there, this

ALP. It's about bringing

integrity and accountability to

the Health Services Union, full

stop. There were a number of

other decisions made at today's

union council meeting, we'll look at the decisions in a

moment. You

them. The mere fact the motions got through, you weren't in the majority, were

you? Is the council not representative of your members,

are they not voted for every

four years? They are, they

are, but I believe the council

is not representative of the membership. The 50 or so

councillors on the telephone

hook-up today are definitely not representative of membership. I've and hundreds of emails from

members and the general public

saying keep going, don't capitulate to the bully boys of

Sussex Street and the

boys within the Health Services

Union. I'm not stopping. But

does that mean that the

membership has changed since

the last election for the union council representatives? I

think what's changed is on

amalgamation in May of 2010 with Victorian branch joining

the HSU NSW branch, I think they thought that we to go along for the magic

carpet ride. I'm not going on

a magic carpet ride. I'm -

today I felt like I was in some

scene from married

scene from married to the mob.

It's just ridiculous. You could

could sell tickets to this.

This is about making sure that

HSU members get answers from

their leadership about where

our money is spent. If it is

misappropriated and misused,

our members deserve answers. Your main concern about decisions made today to

do with the representative body

members informed and also

liaise with the police? It's

farcical. It's totally

farcical. Strike force

Canarvon has Canarvon has been established.

Let's put that to one side. That's the side. That's the police

investigation. The That's the

police investigation. What I was

was seeking today was that independent independent body was set up

where the institute of

chartered accountants and the

Law Society nominate people to

investigate the HSU, with no

official of the HSU, including myself, being part of that. has to be arms length from the

union, so the members have

transparency. That did not

occur. Instead we have a group

of mates judging a group of

mates. We're not mates. We're not judge and jury. Why is it important to

have a union inquiry, given, as

you said, there is the police

inquiry, there is also the fare

Work inquiry. You want a union

inquiry to run concurrently

with those? The test for the

police - what the police are doing is a criminal internal investigation to the

HSU by independent people, arms

length from the union - not me,

not the President,

general secretary, not any of

the other officials. That has

not occurred. We owe to our

membership - forget criminal

charges, they're there on one

side. If there has been other

misappropriation of funds, how

do we let out contracts, what

is the tender process? There

just isn't - you know? We continue as they have been. We

amalgamated in good faith. Our

members in Victoria feel

they've been sold short. I

not go into this process to

become - to participate in

running a corporation. We

don't run a corporation. We

represent working men and women

in the health industry. You say

that you've had quite a large

lot of feedback from those men

and women today. How many

signatures do you need on a

petition to get today's

decisions overturned?

the membership, so it's not

going to be hard. I'm prepared

to take - I was asked earlier

when I was going to resign over

this. I'm not resigning, this. I'm not resigning, I'm

going nowhere. I'm going to

make sure our members get the

answers they deserve from every

official of this union Will you

get that 5% I'll definitely get

the 5%. I have at least 5% of

members who have already E

mailed me saying "If you leave,

we leave too". I'm we leave too". I'm going

nowhere. I'll see the battle

out. It has become a battle. It's not of my making. Our

members deserve answers. Why

am I on this program tonight?

Why aren't any of the other

officials of the union speaking

to the media? Kathy Jackson,

who's running the HSU right

now, it appears entirely

dysfunctional? Sorry it

appears totally dysfunctional,

it is at the moment. We have enterprise bargaining campaigns to

to run, grievances to pursue.

Yet here we are having a public

brawl over the fact won't allow an independent inquiry to come into the HSU

and look at our books. They

wouldn't even allow rank and

file members to come and look

at the books. I understand it's

gone further than a public

brawl, your computer systems have now been affected? I

understand late this afternoon

the database in the Melbourne

office was destapled. No staff

member in Victoria has access

to the database. I find that

totally, totally reprehensible.

This is a database run by Mr United Edge provide computer

services to the union. Yet

late this afternoon the

database went down and we have

no answers from Sydney. I'm

seeking for that database to reestablished. We have work to

do. I don't need the database.

What I need is a database that hard-working men and women working at the

working at the HSU, honest people working at the HSU, can

do their daily work. I don't

need a database to gather a

petition. There are 40 45,000 members out there saying

we deserve answers. If the leadership of this union think

they can hide behind the

council, they have another thing coming to Jackson, many thanks for

talking to 'Lateline' tonight.

Thank you. Late tonight Michael Williamson told

'Lateline' he has no idea why

the computer database at the

HSU office in Victoria isn't

operating properly.

that the HSU in NSW also

experienced a series of technical problems this

afternoon and they are being

investigated. The Federal

Government has just draft legislation to allow

offshore processing of asylum

seekers. The only requirement

for asylum seekers to be sent

to a third country is that the Immigration Minister must

believe it's in the public

interest. The Government needs

opposition support to pass the

legislation in the Senate, but

Tony Abbott has already

labelled it as offshore dumping

and says and says it strips away human rights protections for asylum

seekers. Independent senator

Nick Xenophon has told

'Lateline' he's disappointed with a fair work final report into the church of

scientology. He believes the draft report has been watered down. The church of

Scientology has described the

report as a terrific outcome,

but the church hasn't escaped

criticism. The fair work

Ombudsman has called on the

church of Scientology to hire

an independent consultant to review ensure they comply with the

award system and the fair work

Act. Steve Cannane reports The inquiry into the church of

scientology was set up in

relation to allegations made in last year's 'Four Corners'

program. I stayed up 72 hours

once to get someone to approve

going overseas . 72 hours

without sleep, you were 15 at

the time? Mmm. Jordan Anderson

gave evidence to the Fair Work

Ombudsman's inquiry, her family

is upset with today's findings:

This particular case, it seems curious they've taken

this approach, given the person

was a minor, was told what

hours to work and the

circumstances in which they

could work. So I would have

thought it had all the

hallmarks of being an not a volunteer. Volunteers

can walk away. This person

didn't have that choice.

That's why I think cases such

as this could well end up in

the courts. The church of scientology argues all their

religious work is done by

volunteers. In the draft

report, the fair work Ombudsman

found that:

But this finding has been

removed from the final report.

The draft report mentioned

allegations of forced labour and enslavement.

But references to slavery

have been removed from the

final report. Although 'Lateline' understands these allegations will still be referred to relevant

Commonwealth and Commonwealth and State authorities. Undoubtedly it

seems that the approach of the

fair work Ombudsman is now a

watered down version of what

the fair work Ombudsman seemed

to be thinking when there was a

draft report. The fair work

respond to Senator Xenophon's criticisms. The Church of

Scientology agreed to put

forward one of their lawyers

for an interview tonight, but

pulled out: In a press release, the church of Scientology described the

report as a terrific outcome

for Australia's charitable

sector and for religious

freedom, but the lawyer

planning to take a class action against the Church of

Scientology on behalf of former is no victory for the is no victory for the church.

The Ombudsman has found that

the church of scientology has

systemic problems in how they

source their labour. The

Ombudsman has recommended that the Church of Scientology

undertake a widespread audit of

their practices and what they need

need to pay their employees need to pay their employees and

work out the backpay. Now, if

the Church of Scientology is

not smart enough to take up

that request, then they may be facing problems down the track. Steve Cannane, 'Lateline'. The stepmother of

murdered Australian girl Zahra

Baker will serve at least 14

years in an American jail. In

a deal worked out between

district attorney and her

lawyer, 43-year-old e Lisa

Baker pleaded guilty to second degree murder. North America

correspondent Craig McMurtrie

reports from North Carolina. The gruesome case of the 10-year-old Australian

girl, a cancer survivor with

prosthetic leg and hearing

aids, dismembered, has horrified

North Carolina. Nearly a year

after Zahra Baker's disappearance, her American stepmother Elisa Baker shuffled

into court handcuffed and ready

to plead. The 43-year-old

pleaded guilty to second degree

murder and obstruction of

justice. She admitted to

physical, verbal and

psychological abuse of the

child, to hiding and December

it crating her body. Police say they're satisfied her

Australian father Adam though one investigator told

the court they had a hard time

understanding how he couldn't

have known that his daughter

was missing for two weeks. In an emotional an emotional statement to the

court, Adam Baker accused his

wife of destroying his life:

Zahra Baker's biological

mother, Emily Dietrich, called

it an act of pure evil: There

is still no exactly Zahra Baker died. The

autopsy report states it was undetermined homicidal

violence. Elisa Baker says the 10-year-old had been unwell,

she found her not breathing and

tried to resuscitate

her. Police admit she wasn't

prepared to say anything else.

There is only one person that

knows, and she's not

talking. Elisa Baker chose not

to speak before sentencing, her

lawyer telling the court she was emotionally devastated sorry. When it was over, Adam Baker sat stunned. Zahra Baker's family want the

10-year-old's remains transferred to Australia. Little and inappropriate

training with crisis situations, inadequate mental health services and an absence

of hope - a picture of

immigration detention is a

strained and under-resourced

system has emerged at a

coronial inquest into the suicides suicides of three detainees

over a 10-week period last

year. Fijian national Josefa

Rauluni, Briton David Saunders

and Ahmed Al-Akabi took their own lives at Villawood

Detention Centre. The NSW

coroner wrapped up hearings

into the deaths today, with interests settling on the private detention centre

operator, Serco, and the

immigration department. Karen Barlow has this report. Barlow has this report. The

producer is Alison McClymont. Three men killed themselves within a 10-week

period last year at Sydney's

Villawood immigration detention

centre. Josefa Rauluni, Ahmed

Al-Akabi and David Saunders. Different lives, different reasons for being in detention,

the question is whether the

immigration detention system failed them. community was in mourning in

September last year, the day he

was due to be deported to Fiji,

Josefa Rauluni Josefa Rauluni killed himself

after a one and a half hour

standoff with staff from

Villawood's private operators, Serco. The 36-year-old was

desperate not to return to

Fiji. He believed he faced jail

jail and torture there. In a damning report submitted to the

inquest, forensic psychiatrist Michael Diamond painted a

picture of Mr Rauluni standing

on a balcony railing surrounded by overly by overly confronting and

aggressive guards, none trained

to deal with serious threats of

self-harm. They were shouting at him:

There were no trained

negotiators present and the

Serco manager at Villawood

admitted to the inquest that

some of the officers had not completed Australian accredited

training. Serco self reports

the training levels of officers

and the immigration official in

charge of the Serco contracts,

William McGuinness, said in

evidence he assumed Serco officers all had Australian

qual fik akss. Serco's use of

officers without training puts it in breach of

its contract with the

immigration department: Dr

Michael Diamond, an expert in high-risk negotiation

techniques, said that not only could Josefa Rauluni's death

have been prevented, staff escalated the situation:

No-one knew who was in

charge: Serco says it's now

added new removal procedures to

deal with difficult, life-threatening removals

transfers. Dr Diamond's report

found that a lack of a coordinated response between

Serco and the immigration

department was a standout in

the tragic events that led to

the death of Josefa Rauluni.

He says it led to the dismissal

of hope. When examining the

suicide of Iraqi man Ahmed Al-Akabi, it was

came under attack at the

inquest. The psychological support program, or PSP, was specifically devised by Immigration depth for the

prevention of self-harm in

detention. The inquest heard that inadequate resourcing

meant that it was not available

in November last year, when Mr Algefel hanged himself at

Villawood. It was developed in

April 2009, but had not yet

been implemented at either

Christmas Island or the Villawood centre at the time. Reviewing the case, psychiatrist

certificatesh sund rum found

Ahmed Al-Akabi was likely suffering an undiagnosed major depressive disorder in the

months leading up to his death.

The Professor Says Mr Algefel

fell through cracks in the

system. He says he was not

screened, medicated, nor followed up properly by visiting mental health

officials. The mental health team didn't have the capacity

or the structure to be able outreach into the detention

compound; namely, that is to

identify people at risk and to

be able to actively engage seek them out. Serco says the

three deaths are tragic and

that since the deaths, it's

made changes to staff training

policies and procedures. It says a staff member with

specialist crisis negotiation

and management skills is now on site at Villawood at all times.

The coroner's findings on the three deaths end of the year. Earlier this

evening I spoke to the chair of the independent group advising

the Government on mental health

issues in immigration detention centres, Louise

Newman. Professor Newman,

welcome to 'Lateline'. Thank

you. Evidence to the coronial

inquest into the three suicides

at Villawood paints a picture

of a detention system that's

vastly unprepared to deal with

the problems of the people who are in its care. Is the situation now

situation now any better, do

you believe, than it was when

these three men were driven to

suicide? I think actually seeing a worsening of

the situation with significant

numbers of risk factors. We're

seeing people who are held for

longer periods of time, we're

seeing people who are increasingly stressed, who are

having a range of quite severe psychological responses can only be seen as an

escalating situation in terms

of risk of mental health problems. An escalating

situation in terms of risk - is

that showing up in terms of

numbers of cases of self-harm,

of attempted suicide? Well,

certainly those within the

system are reporting increased

levels of concerns, particularly amongst mental health and other staff, about

rates of self-harm and serious

suicide attempts across the

system we're hearing at least anecdotal ly about anything up to two or three per day serious

attempts at self-harm. We're

seeing also, of course, as

we've noted, outbreaks we've noted, outbreaks of protesting behaviour and very

symbolic behaviour. People,

for example, are self-harming

in a way that symbol iedzs

their powerless state and their feelings at the time. So we

have a situation in many ways

which is similar to that which

we saw 10 years ago in Baxter Woomera, where our televisions

every night were showing us

hugely concerning riots,

protests, self-harm and people in despair. I think that's really the most concerning

point. We're seeing now that people are despairing and

they're desperate people who

will, sadly, perform desperate

acts. We have people burying

themselves in the sand, burying

themselves in their own graves

on Christmas Island. What is it

about the meant that we've gone back to

where we were 10 years ago? Is

it really sheer numbers and the

delay in the processing because

of those numbers? of those numbers? I think those factors certainly

contribute, but we also have now, within the system, a group

of people who, although they've

been found to be genuine

refugees, are remaining within the system because of other

issues, largely related to

security assessments. Those

people have been there for


We no he on the basis of previous research - this is

research that the department

itself has commissioned - that

people who remain in these isolated isolated detention facilities in particular, but under those

conditions for 12 months or

longer are highly likely to

start deteriorating and have significant mental health

problems. So the system itself is very stretched. We

certainly don't have enough in

the way of mental health

supports or staff to manage the

situation as we see it now. Well, indeed, as part of

the hearings today and the

evidence given, we heard about

the psychological support

program, or PSP, which was specifically designed to try to

prevent self-harm. As you

understand it, is that now operating in

operating in all operating in all detention facilities? It's certainly

policy, but sometimes, of

course, we know there's a gap between policy and its

implementation. So the concern

is that they may well be patchy

implementation of what is a

approach to try to reduce risk,

to reduce the risk that people will deteriorate by providing

psychological support in a

realistic way. But we that certainly this has not been implemented in a

consistent way across the

system. This is a system with rapidly changing numbers of

staff. People leave the

system. So we very much have

advised the department that

it's important to look at who's

been trained in these approaches, who can

system and those working

system and those working within

it to ensure that we're reducing risk if we

can. Indeed, that was going to

be my next question. If we can

step back a bit and you talk us

through the process. When an

asylum seeker first arrives,

they're given a health check.

What happens after that? Where

does the responsibility fall

for red flagging any potential issues or picking up any change

in behaviour? Are there regular screening practices?

Yes, there are - well, if the policy way that it should be. This is

a policy that advises and has recommended certain sorts of

screening to better identify

those who might be at high risk, particularly people who

have experienced torture or

trauma in countries of origin

or who may have pre-existing

mental health problems. It

also advises about screening as

people stay longer within the

system to better identify those

who may be deteriorating. I

think it's important to point

out that the policy also states

that those who have experienced

torture and trauma should not be

facilities, but should be in

the community where they can

better access the sorts of

treatment and mental health

supports that they need. Yet

we know that certainly at the

moment there are survivors of

torture and trauma within the

system, there are people with

mental health problems which

are quite significant who are not being released into the

community in a timely way. If the implementation of this

support program is patchy, as

you say, in those cases where

it's not in place, who bear the responsibility for

picking up change in behaviour?

Would it in essence boil down

to security staff who would be

vastly unprepared, I to identify something that

takes years of training to

assess? Yes, they're certainly

not trained, nor should they be

expected to have that frontline

clinical role. The mental

health teams and services that

are available in the detention

facilities are very stretched,

so it's actually not surprising

in some

be cases of people who are

really quite unwell where that

is not recognised, where that

has not been identified. So we

have, I think, a very disparate

system which is probably underidentifying people who

might well need treatment, who,

at the very least, need additional support and should

be placed in community

detention. Do most asylum

seekers who are diagnosed with

a mental health problem arrive

with one, or do they develop one? Is there usually some

trauma when they first land in

Australia? Most people are

asylum seekers precisely because they're because they're fleeing from trauma or discrimination and

have had some negative

experiences, so of course that

can set up vulnerabilities. On

top of that, they might well have protracted and difficult

journeys, a lot of anxiety, a

lot of uncertainty. Then they

arrive and those who are

detained find themselves within

a system that, for them, is very hard to

understand. It might certainly

not be what they expected.

They might find themselves in

very remote locations and they

might suddenly be attempting to

come to terms with the fact

that detention, at least under

our current immigration law,

can be indefinite. It's a

combination of those factors.

What the research shows very

clearly is that people

detearate the longer they stay in detention and that the

experience of detention itself,

exposed to traumatising events

or become seriously unwell,

witness people around them

being distressed and maybe even

self-harming - all those sorts

of traumatic experiences

directly relate to the high

levels of mental levels of mental health

problems that we see. These

are extremely vulnerable people

and we place them in situations

where they're then very

stressed and retraumatised.

So, from a mental health

perspective, it is entirely unsurprising that they very high rates of mental

disorder. Tell us about the use

of isolation compounds, so-called red compound, for

example, on Christmas Island?

Yes, I think there are

concerns about the use of these

sorts of facilities. These

facilities presumably are there

for housing people when there

are concerns maybe about

behavioural disturbance.

They've certainly been used

after some of the behavioural recently. They might be used

for the housing of people who have experienced - been

involved in destruction of

property, and so on. property, and so on. So largely for behavioural management. I think the

concern about that is not that

the system doesn't want to

protect its property and protect people and others from

harm, that's very important.

The concern is the misuse, the

potential for misuse of

facilities like that for the

housing of people who are actually mentally unwell. Placing people who are

extremely mentally unwell and

distressed in those sorts of

facilities can actually worsen their mental health problems and there have certainly been

reports of people engaging in very severe self-harming and

suicidal behaviours whilst in

these sorts of facilities.

Certainly any decisions to

maintain people in restricted

areas should only be made by

clinicians. It very much needs

to be

used as a matter of last resort

for someone's safety or #230r

the safety of others. It's not

my view that these should be used for political reasons and behavioural management, which

essentially is something that's

determined by officials in

Canberra. Professor Newman, we

thank you very much for taking

the time to talk to 'Lateline' this evening. Thank you,

Ali. United States Treasury

secretary Timothy Geithner has joined finance ministers and

heads of Central Banks in

Poland to discuss

growing debt crisis. The

meetings to be held over two

days follow a coordinated move

by the world Central Banks to

pump US dollars into the

European banking system. It

means a cash-strapped commercial banks will have

access to unlimited amounts of

dollars until the end of the

year, as troubled nations like

Greece and Italy try to


economies. Asian stocks and European bank shares immediately rose on the optimism generated by the

action, which has eased fears

of interbank lending drying up. Joining

up. Joining us now in the

studio for our regular chat

about economic issues is

economics correspondent Stephen

Long. Welcome. It all sounds

too good to be true, pumping US dollars into the

Europe economies. It is in a

sense a little misleading, the

reaction on markets, Ali. We

have a situation where

effectively the money markets

shut down to European banks.

They couldn't access short-term

funding from the US money

markets, other than at prohibitive cost. So what's

happened is that the Central

Banks have stepped in with a

facility that's been around for

a long time, offering them

money at an affordable rate for

three months. But you think

about that, it's actually

confirmation about how bad things are. Yes, the markets

have rallied because there's

some short-term stability for

the banks, but it's really

saying that they had to get

emergency funding. That is not

a good sign. No, it's another

kicking the can down the road,

isn't it? What happens when

the three months is up It is,

indeed, just as what happens

with the ongoing debt woes in

Europe, there's still no plan

how to resolve. I was how to resolve. I was going to

ask you that point, the EU finance ministers What sort of resolutions are

they discussing and what is the

current state of play with

Greece? Well, there are a

number of issues they are

discussing. Greece is clearly right on the edge at the

moment. The head of the International Monetary Fund,

Christine will Lagarde, has come out and said unless they

implement the measures that

they are obligated to put in

place, for the next tranche of

funding in the next month to

keep them going 8 billion

Euros, they won't get the money. My understanding is

that she and that she and the IMF are under

enormous pressure from Asian countries, developing nations

who are saying "How come

there's special treatment for a

western nation like Greece? We

never got that when we were in trouble." So Greece could

effectively be fore closed on

by the IMF, and Greece can't

meet the conditions. So that's

at a very delicate edge even in the short run. The financial markets

markets are pricing near 100%

chance now of Greece defaulting

within the next few years. The

question is will it be weeks months perhaps. Does it get to stay in the Eurozone or get

kicked out? There was a really

interesting article in one of the German newspapers Bill, running through a running through a detailed

scenario for Greek debt

default, some order ly managed default, where after the close

of markets approaching the

weekend it's announced that

Greece is defaulting on its

debt, it's debt is being

restructured, they're pulling

out of the Euro, there's a

transition with Euro notes with

cancelled on them as the the drachma, capital controls

for the banks. This may be

pure speculation, but it was

quite an interesting scenario. But isn't the

question, if that happens, what then happens to the debt of

Italy and the debt of Spain and

far bigger economies? The fear

of a domino effect. But of course it's all about

protecting the banks. This is

all about protecting the banks.

In many ways it would be much

better for Greece to be able to

do that, because then they

could have a radical currency,

devalation and have some hope of restoring Basically I can't see they have

a plan. They're looking at using this European Financial

Stability Fund to try to buy

bonds in the primary market.

There's talk that that will be

leveraged so there will be borrowing with borrowed money

in effect even within that facility, opening up all sorts

of risk for Europe. There's no

answer at the moment. They're

still trying to work out how to

manage this without a catastrophic and chaotic

meltdown. But at least they're talking. At least talking, but let's admit they

have been talking for a long

time now. Indeed. Stephen Long, many thanks You're

welcome The Syrian regime is estimated by estimated by the UN to have

killed 2,500 of its own people during the past six months of

pro tests, but President Bashar

al-Assad is unlikely to face

the same UN endorsed military

action that helped rid Libya of

Moammar Gaddafi. For that

Assad can thank Russia,

according to correspondent Norman Hermant,

the Arab spring has cost Moscow

crucial Middle East allies and

it's determined to hold on to its influence in Syria The crowds in the street are still

protesting and Russia's flag,

along with China's, is being burned for its stubborn support

of Syria's regime, despite a government crackdown that has

killed thousands. But Russia's

President says Moscow has no

plans to back sanctions against Syria - Syria - a long-time Middle East

ally. We must not idealise

this situation, we must

approach it from a balance of strongest interest, says Dmitry Medvedev. Russia's interest in

Syria has everything to do with

arms. It hopes to sell

Damascus new fighter jets,

missile systems and artillery -

in all, about $4 billion worth

of contracts. Moscow is not about to lose another Middle

East customer, says this analyst, without a fight. All our kind of clients, they are

clients of the United States,

France, Britain and if Syria also

also follows, we will lose almost all our clients in the

Middle East. The Arab spring

has not been good to Russia.

Its ties to Moammar Gaddafi go

Its ties to Moammar Gaddafi go

back decades and most co only reluctantly recognised Libya's

new government. It was the

73rd country to do so. That

may put billions of dollars of

construction and oil contracts

at risk. Now many say the same

scenario is playing out Syria, where Russia has

billions invested and a major

naval base. Russia has a lot

to lose in Syria. That is why

Russia wants to find out less

the destabilising way out of

the situation The Kremlin wants

to be seen as standing by

Syria. Russia has already

halted missile sales to Iran,

if failed to veto UN Security

Council action in Libya. Many fear fear when it comes to repairing Russia's reputation as a reliable arms supplier, the

damage is already done. Now to

the weather. A little rain developing in Hobart. A shower

or two for Perth. A late cool

change in Melbourne. Some high

cloud in Adelaide. Fine in

Brisbane. Mostly sunny in

Sydney, Canberra and Darwin.

That's all from us. If you'd

like to look back at tonight's

interviews with Kathy Jackson

and Louise Newman, or review

any of 'Lateline's stories

website. You can also follow

us on Twitter and Facebook.

I'll see you again on Monday.

Enjoy your weekend. Good night.

This programme contains some strong language. # Take a beautiful dream and let it show # Don't let them go and let it grow # Grow, grow, grow, grow. # I am always amazed when I win awards. Even more amazed when I don't. And when I feel down, I look at all my trophies to cheer myself up - the John Markopoulos Memorial Prize for best use of a swishy curtain... the Andy Warhol golden syrup for innovation and campery. The Turner Prize. The what? The Turner Prize?! Now, how on earth did I get that? When I was growing up, Saturdays were spent indulging my father's favourite pastime - digging for shit in skips and carrying it home to disgrace our lounge/diner. But this particular Saturday, there were two new exciting things to brighten up the day. Number one - a new statue at the local roundabout. Who's that with her arms in the air like she just don't care? # Near, far... # It's that bird from Titanic. Kate Winslet? Reading's most famous daughter? # ..I believe... # She's the epitome of pulchritudinosity! Kate who? Cos, basically, as far as my dad was concerned, if they hadn't been in Coronation Street... ...they didn't exist. Feckin' genius! The second new thing we did was nearly get ourselves killed - cue car. Stop showing me up! Are you all right? Yeah. I scuffed my trainers! Bloody women drivers! My friggin' arm's killing me! What we didn't know was the car was being driven by Reading's other famous daughter and flavour-of-the-month modern British artist Stacey Bile. And she was driving said car on the now infamous route, which saw her motor straight into a top London gallery where it was awarded none other... than the Turner Prize. My dad meanwhile had been awarded with a broken arm. Snugglebuns, does this top make me look pregnant? No, my bouncing bacon bloomer with a heavenly piccalilli on the side. Will you two stop being lovey-dovey? You're actually making me feel ill. ...And, strangely, I sort of feel as if the whole women is the exegetical text for this exhibition. What's this shit we're watching? Er, it's an informative, educational arts programme for intellectuals, Ashlene. Get with the programme. Who's the Turner Prize actually named after? Dunno. Tina? Really? Oh, I love her. Wasn't Ike a bastard, though? Of course it wasn't named after Tina Turner, duh! Who is it named after, then? Anthea. Oh, I'm surrounded by ignorami. Andy, sugar hips, what if I go like that? Jaysus, now you look like you're having feckin' twins. Cheeky bar stool! Never tell a woman she looks pregnant, especially your wife. Can you please be quiet, so I can at least attempt to hear some interesting conversation spoken by practitioners of the Queen's English? Here we are at the Wayward Gallery, where the car is the star. Alan Yentob, what do you make of the piece? Well, Stacey has encapsulated her whole life in this statement. It's feral, it's metallic and it's completely out of control. I don't want to sound pretentious... Go on, give it a try. It's post-apocalyptic. High praise indeed, Stacey. Do you want to say anything? Someone call Charles Saatchi - he'll eat this up. Oh, what a dirty, dirty lady. Jeez, would you believe it? It's her, the artist. That's the bloody car that nearly killed me and Ashlene. And scuffed my bloody trainers, if you please. I think a broken arm ranks a little bit higher than dirty feckin' shoes. Uh, you think so, do you? Right, that's it! I'm calling the Tate. That's where all them artists hang out, innit? Hello, operator, get me the Tate. Mother, this isn't a Hollywood movie from the '50s. You have to dial Directory Enquiries. Oh, yeah. Oh, Hayley's working. Hello, Holistic Hayley speaking. You see, around that time, my Aunt Hayley had set herself up in business - as a telephone astrologer. # People think that I'm a loony blind bird # Who can't twig day from night # A braless hippy with a hound that's whiffy # Her fart's worse than her bite # Too much hair upon my lady garden # Fashion from the bring and buy

# But now I'm reading from a psychic plane # With my brown all-seeing eye # Seeing is believing # And I believe, yes, I really do # How the stars collide on the other side