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World can Beattie & Reith. You're looking well.So are you.There is some good news. I hope to Peter Reith during the week, I gave him your regard aloof and say hello. You live in the early stages of rehab. And, from both of us, all of us, autograph. We're talking about technology and what it means for John.You can have a glass half full or half empty. We have some interesting things to talk about what we have an extra, we will talk to Doctor Michael McCallum. I will go through his details. Founder of the global foresight network. Designing better futures. And interestingly, he was part of a British report released by the government that talks about the shape of jobs to come. If you are worried about your job and technology and what it will be, what impact it will have, stick with us because we will speak to an expert. Michael, welcome to the show.Thank you very much indeed.Lets get to the heart of this. You believed the talk we are having about the impact of technology on jobs is misguided. What are the issues we should be concerned about as a society?I think there are couple. I'm interested that you use the word society because it is a societal issue. It is a range of issues. When we talk about artificial intelligence, machine learning, robotics and algorithms and the whole thing, and these will affect the next decade in ways I think we are yet to understand. High levels of uncertainty. Major impact on jobs, some people saying as much as half of all of our current jobs by 2050. It will change economies, it will change what we think about is being worked and we can't leave it to a few technologists or: ministers or a few sector groups to just say, this is good for you.Getting to the heart of this, our viewers out there looking at tonight, you are an expert in this area, what are the jobs most likely to be impacted on? Which group in our society should be the greatest concerned? Well, everyone has always thought that in fact it is the people with routine and repetitive jobs that will be impacted. That is typically warehouse workers, machine workers, perhaps people who drive vehicles. We have seen driverless cars emerging, thousands of people could be put out, but that is only one group. It is in the other services I think the interesting things will happen. We are already starting to see quite large numbers of people being impacted in the professions, professions which are routine, and this is hollowing out professions as we understood them. Some of these technologies are good, please don't think they are all bad. I think the sector where we will see the greatest change the soonest is in the financial services sector. This is where people will be using block chain technologies, smart contracts and bundling those with other technologies, to totally reframe banking, insurance and other financial offerings. If you think about what that means, for example, for Sydney or Melbourne, that is enormous. I think that we will see that very soon. Just going on from that, if that is the main thought you have an weather disruption will be. How do you think we are going, in terms of dealing with it as a society? Do you think enough is being talked about on this, enough decisions being made by planners and government and by industry bodies? We will talk about the Australian industry group shortly, by the way.I don't think we're having anything like the kind of conversations we should be having. These are, I think, profound conversations that we need to have, because they are structural in nature. They changed the nature of work. They change the nature of what constitutes an organisation. I can show you examples of very small financial services companies who can produce the same offering, better, using a different business model with 50-100 people as another company which will employ 15,000 plus. Right now those examples exist. I think these are quite large structural conversations, as I say, with high levels of uncertainty. So I'm not making predictions, and we just need to talk about what that means, what happens when we have all these people who don't have work in the way we've understood it and can we find other forms of work that have real meaning, that are different from the kind of way we are doing it right now?I am involved in a couple of technology companies in this space. One is in the space of the Internet of things. The impression I've gained is our education system, particularly, is dealing with this. There are some shining lights out there, schools across Australia, primary and secondary schools, that have the kids doing robotics, but the impression I get is a lot of schools, I would say the majority of schools, are really perhaps not even contemplating this wave of change that is coming and preparing our kids. Have you got some stuff to say on that question that there are two responses. The first one is I think there is a very important conversation that needs to be had inside higher education about what they are investing in and for whom. But if I take the ones, primary school and secondary school, it strikes me that what we are now needing to do is to really help the young people of our planet who will face all the risks of the decisions we are making. What it means to be collaborative, what it means to be creative in ways that artificial intelligence never can. What it means to, I guess... Be critical, in terms of our thinking, things that really make us human and that I think that for decades to come, you know, artificial intelligence will struggle to in fact duplicate in any way, shape or form.Coming to the heart of education, one of the things I have always understood is the most useful thing education can do to cope with technological changes teach our kids how to be flexible, adaptable, how to change jobs in their life. That may mean four or five different jobs in their lives, do you agree with that? As I say, I think where we are coming to now is the level of technology that's available, that many of the children news right now in ways that far superior to the people teaching them, is to have a wholesale rethink about the skills and capabilities we really need to equip human beings for. So this is about, the great thing about the education, sorry, the artificial intelligence challenge, is it will force us to discover what it means to be human. Whereas you could argue in the last century we were simply doing jobs that our machines weren't smart enough to do just yet. But now we are going to be at a time when the machines will be may be as smart as us at some things. So what does humanity were like in that kind of world? That means rediscovering a few things.Let me ask you this, and I don't want to sound elitist, but this is one of the practical questions we have to ask. God didn't give everyone the same ability. There for what will we end up with two different classes, the creative class, people who are looking at how they can use their intelligence coming back to the basics of humanity that separate us from artificial intelligence? They are the smart ones able to do that. What about the people not that gifted? How does society remain cohesive? Look, I think that's an excellent point. I think what we are finding is with the aid of these technologies, people will be able to find talents that they didn't know they had. They will be able to collaborate, whatever their scalability, with people worldwide. For example, we will see essentially the design of things becoming global and increasingly the manufacture of these things becoming local, using 3-D technologies. I can see people who we regard of so-called lesser ability really thriving in that kind of environment, because they can then start to home crafts that right now we don't allow them to do.Just going perhaps to the nuts and bolts of this, a lot of talk about lots of people losing their jobs and then there are some policy people out there saying, you have do have a robot tax or things like that. Do you have any thoughts this evening about can this thing be controlled? Can policymakers even keep up with the whole rate of change? No, I think the policy environment is a long way behind, but again, I think it's about different kinds of conversations. In a sense, the genie is out of the bag, and in my view we are racing to try and understand the challenge that's in front of us around artificial intelligence. With all the uncertainties I've just talked about, and all the benefits as well, alongside a whole lot of other complicated issues. That's got big issues for leadership. A recent report by Mick Dowling called thinking the unthinkable from the BBC, he found that many leaders across Europe and England simply don't know how to act facing the kind of complexity of the problems that is facing a.I think so, and I also just make an observation, I think if you go back to Malcolm Turnbull's first 12 months or so in the job as PM, he was talking about or call -- technological change and innovation. My sense of it is he backed off that, because I think they probably did a focus group and I'm not being critical, but I think he had to, I think he was actually scaring people. I think this is a challenge from readers, do you agree? That if a leader is constantly talking about change, and you could lose your job because you're delivering bad news, is that something you see?I think we have do face what we are being dealt with. When we do see workers in China are being made redundant because robots are taking their jobs in an Apple factory, factory workers at $5 an hour, it says to me a whole nation of labourers, the basis of economy and productivity, that's completely out the window. So these are difficult conversations I think we need to have. Often and with as many people as we can. When I talk to ordinary people in the street, they want to have these conversations, because they don't know what to say to their kids. Exactly right. Let me ask you this question... You mentioned China. I know the United States has traditionally been the centre of innovation, China is now doing the same thing, Japan and Korea have been doing it for sometime, is doing it. Are we doing enough in Australia to be part of the smart economy? Are we doing enough to get the intellectual property to benefit from some of the research being left behind? What is your view of where we are as a country?I think given that we have a demonstrated track record of some amazing innovations, in my view we do two things very poorly. Firstly, we are too afraid to let go on try things, and to experiment a little bit more. Secondly, I think we do not pay enough attention to what happens outside of this large continent and say, how can we network much more effectively with people around the world, to achieve the things that we need to do back here in Australia? Sorry, please go on. I was going to say, we also afraid of failure? In the united states when I was trade commissioner, I ran into a number of people who had been bankrupt on several occasion to now billionaires. We take it as a personal stigma if you failed, but in America it's a badge of honour, to go on and succeed. Are we too afraid of failure?Absolutely. The greatest failure in my view is we will failed to confront in time the issues that face us. Failures that worry me are not the ones where we try a few things that make mistakes, but the failures of omission that I think we have in front of us right now, whereby simply not by facing the issues at the level that they require, not protecting our own patch, not being prepared to rethink what organisations mean, what cities mean, what communities mean, those will be the greatest failures if we keep avoiding them.Unfortunately we are coming to the end of our time. One quick thing, for all the mums and dads out there... What would you be saying to them? Where would you encourage their children to be going, where should they focus?I want to go back onto those three things I said before. I think in a networked world people do need to work to be collaborative. They need to enjoy their creativity, so they can make as much use as they can of the opportunities that are in front of them, and they need to actually understand what critical thinking is, in a way where we can actually empathise with other human beings. This is the core of what it means to be human, I think. What I would be saying to people is, bring out in your children all of the things that make them human beings, and accept that there are things they need to do, completing the exam here, multi-choice affair, that increasingly make them look like robots.(LAUGHTER) On that note! Michael, thanks. Keep talking to government, because we need our leaders and policymakers to understand what needs to be done. We will be back in a minute and talking to Innes Willox from the Australian industry group about what business and industry are doing about the impact of technology, how they are taking advantage of it and what more we need to do. See you in a minute, don't go away.

Welcome back. We will talk in a minute to Innes Willox, the CEO of the Australian Industry Group and has been for a little while. I first met him when he was the consul in LA. He did a good job there. We will come to that in a minute. In terms of what Michael said, what does that mean in nuts and bolts? He said mums and dads, he had all those collaborative things, which I agree with, but how would you interpret that?I think the direct focused advice for parents to their kids surely is, depending on what your kids capabilities' are, if they are technologically minded then absolutely, science and engineering and robotics, all that, if that's not for them... It will probably be things that involve dealing with human beings.Let's hear about that collaboration structure of nursing. Health care, education...Doctors, nurses, people working in aged care facilities, jobs where you have two actually empathise with other human beings, as he said.Which is that the core of society.Important so -- social active skills, the least likely to be disrupted. You can have the ones disrupting Russell, the coders and then the ones picking up the pieces.The other group are undertakers! (LAUGHTER) We are all going to die at some point.That is a very bleak...A bit of a pun for undertakers, they whisk it a bad rap! We are joined by Innes Willox. Thank you for joining us. Good to see you again.One of the things we were talking about earlier in the program, we will be interested in your views on technology. Australian Industry Group has an art but of members in the manufacturing sector, where do you see technology going and what impact will it have on jobs for Australians?We have a lot of members in the technology space, technology companies, the big names like Google and IBM are members of our group, so we try to get together with our manufacturing members. Manufacturing is going enormous change, and with change comes down side but there also comes enormous opportunity. Businesses are looking at ways to innovate and we talk all the time about needing to increase business investment. In large part that is around new products, new ways of making products, new markets. All of that is part of the innovation equation. Business is doing business much doing differently than it did a decade ago, less reliant on people, more reliant on brains, basically, more reliant on skills, which can be quite widespread. So businesses changing the way it's doing business. That presents opportunities for young people looking for jobs, and it presents opportunities for retraining. I think a lot of this comes back to the way we train our workforce, our current workforce, and what kids are learning at school and how they are learning it. When I talk to businesses and CEOs in manufacturing or construction, what they are looking for our young people with resilience, with adaptability and creativity and with aptitude. They are the core competencies they are looking for. They believe that kids coming out of school have the basic technical knowledge but they are not going to get a whole lot out of them for a year or two. That's fine, as long as they can train them up. I'll give you a terrible story, both of you are from Queensland. I was in Brisbane last week, talking to a manufacturing company, a very high-end manufacturing company, exports everything they do. The kids they are trying to get for apprentices at the moment, the 20 day are looking for, to put them through basic maths test and need 50% pass. One in five on average passes that's what makes it tough. Terrible. Let me ask you this question, you have been strong on this point in the past... There are some deficiencies in the education and training sector. What do we need to do in our education and training system to make sure our kids to have the level of competency to be trained at the workforce? What more do we need to be doing, curriculum changes? What needs to be done?I was talking to the Victoria Minister for Education and location near the week along with other business leaders, or governments at interested. The point we were trying to get across to her is industry needs to get much more involved and be allowed to be much more involved in training and in schools, to give kids the opportunity to see that there are jobs out there, there is hope out there and these are the sorts of skills that you need to have. At the moment, that is the missing link, the missing piece, that industries in front and centre of training at the moment. A lot of kids are going through school, careers counsellors, I could talk to you for an hour about careers counsellors are now we need to shake that up. Career counsellors don't know whether jobs are necessarily, their job is to get kids into university. A lot of kids are coming out of training or uni without a pathway to a job. That is where industry needs to be front and centre. On a more fundamental level, and this is a personal view, I was expressing it with our previous guest Mike McAllum as well, I have a sense, a strong sense that the education system, primary and secondary, actually almost... It's a bit like King Canute and the tide. This technological change, this wave of destruction isn't happening and we don't want to know about it. Am I being unfair?Probably not, I'd say. I think there's a big lag factor. We are still teaching kids sitting around listening to someone lecture them. Kids these days on the whole, we want to get more kids into science. You have to get them doing science. You have to get them practical things in schools which will give them a job. When Simon Birmingham launched his education reforms, he asked me to speak to a group of university vice chancellors, and the point I was asked to make and May, was happy to make, is the whole point of the University education is to get a job, is to have a job. It's good to learn along the way and it's intellectually stimulating, but if you don't have a job at the end of it, you have to query the value of that education. That's where we need to get the connections made. So you right, there needs to be much greater connections between schools and industry and and industry and vocational education is and industry, because the outcome is a job. There are lots of jobs out there. We shouldn't get down in the mouth about it. We just have to train our people for it. One thing we do at the Australian Industry Group, we are partnered with Swinburne University and Siemens, the German company. We are running apprenticeships for about 20 kids, called Pirate Prentice ships, they come out with associate degrees, they learn all sorts of enormous skills. It is based on the German model. -- called higher apprenticeships. The industry is enormous, because they can see the kids that come out of this are going to have those skills around adaptability and resilience that they are looking for.On that sort of theme, I find it somewhat ironic that at a time that we perhaps could buy a body have some fantastic manufacturing industries, we've lost our car industry, it's quite ironic that technologies are coming back potentially we can have operations that create small one-off boutique vehicles that are very expensive, but have a great following in the marketplace, people want to buy that. Do you think that people are seeing that opportunity, do your members see opportunities in that way question how do we get that across to the community? You brought up the auto industry. There are kids that cannot do the maths. I was talking to suppliers in the auto Supply chain and they are going down in Melbourne from 450 staff to this day. The 50 staff are in one case sales, and another they are around are indeed and design. It is a ridge east workforce but a changing one. -- it is a reduced workforce. That is how it is going here. It is the R and D phase rather than the assembly.You have a broader group of members who have international competition and links. Do you think we are doing enough to be competitive? And naive first in LA and you understand the global scene. I'll be globally competitive and if not do we have to do more. The innovation policy is a very good one but I worry that will not sell it. Where are we? Are we competitive enough. Do we need to do more about innovation in this country.I was with John Fraser and I was talking to him about R and D. They need to provide incentives for a to the R and D Dunn in Australia on a significant scale. Then we will go down a long way towards being competitive. A hospital in Melbourne just did another year implant which was designed in a showy. We need to find a way to market our skills to the world. We have to be competitive to get in word investment to attract capital to allow us to do things. There are a lot of barriers in the way there. We have a lot of success stories. Often when we go to market we do not market them well or we are a little shy and we lose opportunities there. We do a lot here but we need to be better at marketing.What do you make on the current developments on tax in Australia.We need to make it less and simpler to make the world a better place. We are a high taxing country in terms of the take from income tax and corporate taxes. We are up there on the OECD skills and the tax system is very complex. A person spends an average around 350 bucks and gets about that back in their tax return. We complicate things and make them difficult. We probably will have, next year or the year after, a debate around tax and how we tax. I notice the opposition is talking about some significant changes to deductions. We have to make our taxation does fair rate across-the-board and simpler. From a business perspective, we also need to make our taxes to more competitive. That has to be the underlying story. How we get there we can discuss, but we can agree on the principle that we are to highly taxed and we are taxed on the wrong places.We need to talk about the cost of energy. That impacts on industry and your members. What would you like to see done in Australia to make is more competitive in the energy sector? Right now we are in the ditch. If you look at El adjusted prices in 2012 it was 3- 4 cents an hour, that is no 12-18 cents. It has increased fourfold. It will fall again because of the closure of power stations and the loss of four gigahertz about this city. That is a big problem. It is the same with gas, we are seeing tripling in quadruple in of gas prices. The government is looking to exercise the authority it has over a gas exports. That is one way to do it. We applaud the government for what it has done. If things do not turn around quickly, we will see big distortions, depending when they had taken out their energy contract. If it is not resolved we are going to see some dramatic closures as a result.Frankly, I look at the politicians and the Federal Government and sadly some of the noises coming out of state administrations and I do not think that they get how critical it is for people who are trying to run those businesses.I spoke to a CEO last week running a small packaging company and his business is going to have to spend around half $1 million more over the next 12 months than it has in the last 12 months on energy costs. That is half $1 million he could spend on more staff, marketing, building his business. Instead he is having to get money into energy costs. In the end, it will just cost jobs. Many businesses are just hanging on. Now I think awareness levels are up but there is a lot of damage being done across the economy right now.We will talk more about energy and these matters on another occasion. Have a good night. We will be back in a minute. Campbell will be spurning where I am wrong on issues of the day. -- will be explaining.

We are going to talk about four-year terms. He and you will only had the terms, what would it be like if you had had for years? Margin the mess we could have caused. You might have been me elected?And might have been.There was a referendum recently and Queensland have voted for a fixed four-year term from the selection.I think the four-year term is a good idea. I do not agree that they fixed bit is the way to go. I think the point is is if you know when the election is going to be used are campaigning 12 months earlier.It means that everyone knows the date.When the election was announced to be on a certain day it happened before. It led to very long campaigns. The average life of a Federal Government is to .5 years. I would be happy to see four-year terms. Would she be prepared to put it out as a referendum proposal?We need both sides to cooperate on four-year terms. It is not about labour or illiberal, it is about the nation, the nation needs four-year terms. Governments can be less determined if they are not thinking about the next election.We can hear what Scott Morrison said because this is how he thinks the issue should be handled.I don't think they should be given three years, not four. It is not a top priority for the government. The Prime Minister agreed to have a conversation about it and I know that my colleague across the river has put forward some sensible views about this. It is not a top order issue for the government.One of the things that bill is very good at is running the agenda. The government needs to react. If you are setting the agenda dart-macit is like one of those rugby league games where someone pants down the field and runs, he does it all the time. I am afraid is that you cannot lead the Opposition Leader always be jumping in front of you like that. He might be throwing a ball behind him to blow him up as they come up the road after him.But in politics you need to control the agenda and if you are too reactive you lose the momentum. When I was mayor knew whether Premier, you said the secret of politics was knowing what is going to happen next. I have never forgot that. Play11-mac you never knew that we would end up on a TV show. I see that the BBC is in trouble for telling the truth. Because it is publicly funded day listed all the pay of their major entertainers and newsreaders. Should ABC do the same? Absolutely. ABC, the publicly funded broadcaster, refuses to tell Gillian 's what is being paid, which is wrong in the first place. When it is not put up against the benchmark of the private sector. If you are an executive or a member of the board, your name and the enumeration is published. 15-16 years ago I can see the names. Why can the taxpayers of the sharia not know what is being paid? It is an outrage. I hope that people in the government and the crossbench Hall Herman and get the trophy out of him.I actually agree with you because I think it is taxpayers' money. I have quite a generous view and I think they should be paid well.There might be some people there who are being paid more than state premiers.That is outrageous.The cricket team I played more than everybody. -- are paid more.I think they should be paid more because they make the money. We should talk about the news poll.A very interesting front page. You have one nation going from 11 to nine. Is that the feeling you get in Queens land about one nation and the Greens?They have had an appalling week. Anyone who thinks one nation has gone backwards in Queens land is streaming. For the viewers, the critical thing is when you go back to the Coalition holding government, they had an amazing set of numbers. Queens land will determine the next election.The state election outcome is going to be very instructive.I agree with that. Baseball is a very good poll but we need to remember that one nation board is not uniform, it is in particular regions. Meanwhile, Labour and Liberal tend to be across the country.What the Coalition need to do if they want to retain those regional seats is go in hard on the issues that matter to people in those places. The number one issue in those places is the issue of employment, economic opportunity. And it is about power prices.And they were the ones who were worried about technology. People said to me, particularly the cabbies, they will see the technology results in job loss. They do not understand how we will create growth.There are some great and exciting things that are going to happen. If we do not get on board it is going to be pretty bad simile to encourage our accounts. There are also people my age who are worried about where their job security will be. I scratched my head about this, I do not know what is going on here. We can play a clip. The UN has claimed there was a deal to bring Irish refugees here. Our party remedy promise for a plebiscite which has not been possible to deliver because they can get the votes for it in the Senate, that is the reality of the numbers in the Senate. The next best option in my mind is a postal plebiscite that allows the public to have their say.That is Peter Dutton, the Minister. The United Nations have a statement that says they were promised that they would be refugees taken to Australia.I find that difficult. I think it is implausible. I have no idea what is going on but someone is called to come out very embarrassed very shortly. Where is the evidence to say that they had that understanding with the government.We are basically saying that we do not have a bloody clue. We have an opinion. That doesn't make in a sense. The government has said no refugees, but the UN said that they must. To see the proof. They get the basis of the argument, it is whether this was promised to them or not. They'll shortened. In

ten out of ten for politics, he is always on his game.Really, this is divisive. He should be calling to bring people together rather than dividing the showrooms. This will be my points tonight, the really rich people, that goes back 40 years, they are always gained through the system. When he is saying he is going to tax the rich, the measures he will put in place will hurt the middle class and the upwardly mobile trying to be wealthy but not the megarich. The megarich will order their affairs. They have accounting resources to structure their affairs. This is the opportunity for Malcolm Turnbull. He's shaved speak to financial advisers and speak to them about the fact that you will not be able to claim 300 works for advice. I am talking about politics here. There are ambulance officers, small business people, there is an army of people who the Prime Minister and the government can talk to to tell them about the impact. That is the opportunity. Sadly with the Coalition, I do not think they are good enough at ramming these things home. If they do not, they will prevail.What he's doing in terms of to the issue here, if he is $2000, he can only claim up to that. Most people claim around 250. Most people are affected. He is targeting this very Cleverley.Just to give you that the love for the ritual that, company AA gets $2900 and company the... The more the government has tried to extract money from the very rich, the more that there is a problem. It is the history of the world.I would like to see growth in the economy, jobs, kids having a opportunity and a group business and grow opportunity. I want our kids told that they could be millionaires.We are out of time. We will be back next Monday with a really good show talking about one of the greatest events in our history. See you then.

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Two hours on telly starts right now. Glad you are here, if you want to be part of it, you know what to do. You can contact us on Twitter or Facebook, where plenty of people get the conversation 24-7. We will be joined by the great Graham Richardson, the equally wonderful Janine Perrett and Ross Cameron. And sport as well, so much to talk about, including what is happening in Collingwood. First, a few things worth firing up about. Fixed