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(THEME MUSIC)

Good evening. Welcome to Lateline. Tonight - Music With Mates. Some of the biggest names in Australian rock helping to make young refugees feel at home.Live performance is amazing. Seeing a live performance is special. I think there's a shared love for that among many people.I know when you migrants or refugees, they come to Australia, they might not speak a lot of English, or very little, and music helps them to communicate with the community. First tonight, though, Immigration Minister Peter Dutton could be in line for a big promotion. Tomorrow's meeting of Federal Cabinet is expected to consider the creation of a super portfolio where one minister will oversee border security, the Federal Police and ASIO. If approved, it will be the first time since it was established in 1949 that the spy agency has operated outside the Attorney-General's Department. The major overhaul of Australia's national security structures has reportedly polarised senior ministers with Peter Dutton, Treasurer Scott Morrison and Finance Minister Mathias Cormann in favour, while Attorney-General George Brandis, Justice Minister Michael Keenan and Foreign Minister Julie Bishop all said to be opposed to the idea. Announcing plans to give the military a greater role in responding to domestic terror incidents, Malcolm Turnbull said the Government remained open to improving the current national security systems.I never rest in my efforts to improve the way our outstanding men and women of the ADF, the AFP, working with our intelligence and security agencies and their State and Territory counterparts, I never rest as I focus on how I can ensure they have the maximum support in every respect.Richard Marles is the Shadow Defence Minister, he joined me earlier from Geelong. Richard Marles, thanks for your company tonight.Good evening, Emma.Do we need a new super national security department?I think one of the issues we've got here is the government simply hasn't made out a case for what it's doing. I mean the first question the government needs to explain to the Australian people is what is it that's broken that they are trying to fix? Right now, all we have really got a whole lot of speculation which seems to be more about the ambitions of Peter Dutton than it is about the national interest. We actually have to have a conversation about this given the significance of what we are talking about. This is national security, it is as important an area of public policy as there is. If this is as big a change as what's being speculated, there should be a national discussion which precedes it, we have had none of that.Is there any merit in merging these departments?Again, I would want to hear from the security agencies themselves to get a sense about how the system is working from their point of view now, what would be better and what problems, if any, need to be fixed but right now we don't have any of that. It's not clear at all what it is that the Government is trying to achieve in walking down this path, what problem they are trying to overcome. This seems to me to have a lot more to do about the internal politics inside the Cabinet, of giving Peter Dutton a promotion, giving George Brandis a demotion, than it is about the national interest. That's what we need to hear about. Look, Labor's view has always been, on national security, we have an instinct and reflex of seeking to be bipartisan so if there are good reasons for taking particular steps, we'll listen to them but right now we are not hearing any of that. Attorney-General, George Brandis, last week on this program did mention that the AFP and Australia's intelligence agencies had managed to stop 12 terrorist attacks in Australia over the past four to five years so it would sound like a fairly stellar record, not one that needs any particularly close attention and some sort of repair? Look, I think that is a fair point to make. We do have some of the best intelligence, law enforcement agencies in the world. They have done a really excellent job in protecting our country. Obviously, given the events around the world this year and in the last few years and prior to that, we can't be complacent. There are increasing challenges to our national security, there are new threats that we have to face. Obviously any agency can... You can always be better but, having said that, we do do a good job and I haven't heard it expressed from the national security agencies themselves that they have a particular issue in terms of the coordination of the way in which they are going about their business. It comes back to the first point: We actually need to hear what is the problem the Government is trying to fix.The Prime Minister has announced today sweeping powers for defence forces to assist State Police during any terror strike. Is that a welcome move?Look, I think it is important that we make sure our laws keep pace with the challenges and the changes of threats that we face. In that sense, we are absolutely willing to have a good look at this. There's a whole lot of measures which are being suggested today, such as liaison officers who are embedded in the civil police forces from the ADF, better training of the civil police forces from the ADF, pre-positioning of the ADF for potential domestic terrorism threats, that all makes sense to us. We have obviously asked for a briefing in relation to this and we want to hear that but our instinct is to come to these things with a bipartisan perspective. In terms of the changes to the Defence Act itself to change the callout provisions for the ADF, again, we want to see the actual legislation which the government is seeking to put forward but we have supported a raft of legislation previously which have sought to make our laws more robust in relation to national security...But in principle, you'd support...That's how we'll go about the process hire.In principle, you'd support the notion of the military being somehow involved and supporting the local police?I think the objective here is to make sure in any crisis, in any moment, we bring to bear the most potent capability our nation has, be that in a civil police force or be it in the ADF. We want to make sure we have laws which are flexible enough to allow that to happen whilst at the same time having laws which really promote the best coordination possible between all of those agencies. We certainly support those principles and we look forward to working with the Government to try and achieve an outcome in relation to that. Previously when we have worked on national security matters with the government, we have often come up with ideas ourselves which have been incorporated into the end legislative -- incorporated into the end legislative process. We will work constructively with the government in a bipartisan way to try and bring about a result.You keep talking about approaching the issues in a bipartisan manner and today repeatedly and again tonight you have talked about the previous issue we were just discussing as being about keeping Peter Dutton happy and ensuring him a promotion and Senator Brandis a demotion and so on. Explain for us where you are coming from with all that?National security ought to be above politics. National security ought to be something that the major political parties can sit down together about, work through and come up with proposals...Is this a bit of an annoyance that you haven't been consulted?Well, not necessarily because we don't know what is being proposed but certainly if there are measures proposed tomorrow, when there has been no discussion at all in relation to the question of Homeland Security department and Homeland Security portfolio, that would be a hopeless way of going about business. That's not expressing an annoyance on the part of the Opposition, that's pointing out a way in which this government has treated the Australian public with contempt if that's how they go about things. Ultimately, this should be the subject of a discussion. If the Government wants to have that discussion, we will sit down with them and do so in a constructive way, with a desire to achieve a bipartisan outcome but if what it actually is about is the internal politics of the Cabinet, that's about that and not our national security...What makes you think it might be about that?Well, you look at all that we have seen in relation to the way in which the government has been going about its business across the whole spectrum of public policy, it is all about their internamal -- internals. They are consumed with themselves and right now are eating themselves. When we look at this particular proposal in the past, firstly, it was about the aspirations of Scott Morrison. In recent years, we have seen it articulated in terms of the aspirations of Peter Dutton. That is not a reason to make a change of this kind. If there is actually a substantive public policy reason to act here, then we are happy to sit down with the government and talk it through but, in the absence of making the case and this being cast in terms of the ambitions of individuals, what other conclusion can we draw?Richard Marles, thanks for your time.Thank you, Emma.

For years, many fans of the cut British sci-fi series Doctor Who have been agitating for greater gender equality on the show. Now, for the first time in more than five decades on TV, the Time Lord will be played by a woman. The news that British actress Jodie Whittaker will be the 13th Doctor was broadcast right after the Wimbledon final. The star of Broadchurch says she is overwhelmed as an actor and a feminist to be cast in the iconic role. Speculation a woman would be stepping into the Doctor's shoes has been growing for months. Some felt the character had been too established as a man. One person who knows better than most what it's like to be a trail blazer for women in a role traditionally occupied by men is former Victoria Police Chief Commissioner Christine Nixon. She was the first female chief commissioner of an Australian police force. She is now deputy chancellor at Monash University as well as the chair of Good Shepherd micro finance. She has co authored Women Leading. She is in our Melbourne studio. Welcome to you.Thanks.One in three parliamentary seats occupied by women, in our 229-year history, we have only had one female head of government. What's the greatest impediment to women's achievement?I think there's a couple but one of them is actually seeing the way women behave as being leadership and I think we are really quite... Sort of follow the myths around. Leadership being you have to be a bloke and come in and charge in and solve problems for people or you are born to be a leader. I think what we are trying to say in Women Leading is women have been leaders all along. Accepting the literature and in many ways the system doesn't accept that.55 countries have recently had female presidents or prime ministers, many of whom introduced progressive changes to their countries, significant change but with a few exceptions, their contributions as leaders have been largely ignored. Why?I think that's the problem. If it's done by a woman, it's seen as volunteering or seen as kind of not the kind of recognition that we should be getting. I think about myself and the role I played in Victoria Police and the reduction in crime and a whole range of things but it doesn't get written up. I think what we are saying in the book is that's the case and those woman who are doing amazing jobs... I mean, Julia Gillard did a fantastic job as the Prime Minister during very difficult times but got no credit for having got so much through Parliament through difficult times. I don't think we get the credit for the work we do. What we are saying in the book, as you have made the point, that so often the work of women is not recognised.You also discuss the fact that generally there is a deep discomfort about having women in power. What do you put that down to? Look, I think it's history, it's culture, it's the fact that men have always been in charge, that we've seen... I think Annabel Crabb makes a wonderful statement, you get to see them as being assumptions. My concern is we seem to downplay women's role and responsibilities and don't even just give it the time to think that's what they're doing, being leaders, and doing it well. Often when you discuss this issue, people will say the lack of female leaders is a result of the fact females don't want to be leaders. That's what they say! Look, I think that's wrong. As we said, it's about women and the way they go about their work and do it, it is not being recognised as leadership as part one. It is a way of saying "Blame the girls. It's the women's fault, they don't want to step up." But in many cases they do step up and do try for the roles and they get pushed out and the systems don't play fair, they don't have merit-based promotion in a proper way. In many cases, when women do step up, they are not given the chance to lead in a formal sense.We will talk about that in a second. But first how is the experience of leadership for a woman different to that of a man?Look, I think first of all for women to get into a formal position of power is incredibly difficult. I know my own experience and I know many, many others. Once you get there, it's also the next stage is the scrutiny you get put under. Whether it's by media or by colleagues or by the community. It's about saying "You're an exception, you have got there, we are going to be watching you very closely to see what you do", in many cases, if your hair is not even in the right place, you get that next kind of problem where you'll be targeted. What we are saying in Women Leading is that women should be aware of that and when you do step into those roles, know how to deal with it and understand that that is part of what happens to women because there is such a small number of us.Women are held to a higher standard than men? Absolutely. Held to a higher standard, they are also physically... My colleague Amanda Sinclair writes clearly about the kind of issues around physicality for women. Too big, too small, too fat, too thin, not properly dressed, all those things are way focused on. I remember an incident we quote in the book where a media commentator wore the same suit for a whole 12 months. His female partner in the sense in the media was always criticised for what she wore. We have to recognise that it's tough for women in those positions but we know they can do the job and when they get the chance, they do it really well.In terms of how we change things going forward to, I guess, promote more women into leadership positions, make it easier, is a quota system the way to go? Do we need to have formal quotas because, of course, many people will say, many women will say "I don't want to be a token... I don't want a token position, I want to get there on merit"?I have been around a long time and realised quotas are it. Evidence in Victoria Police when we put on targets was that you were able to track more women into those roles. I think it is. You look at the Labor Party, the number of people they have in senior positions versus the Liberal Party and other particular parties. I think that quotas are an important part of it to work on, that's the first bit. The second is to start to look at what we define as merit. That particular issue around how people get chosen - three-people panel is the least efficient mechanism to choose someone. I think we have to, once we get people there, we have to be looking to have fair and decent processes. I suppose the other piece I think we have to recognise is the strange behaviour that women have babies. We don't seem to recognise this we need to take that into account and support them in childcare facilities and in husbands and partners also being part of helping those women survive. One of the things we say in Women Leading is that those women who succeed in many cases have supportive partners. I think that's a really important part to see that women are given that support in whatever way they can get it.If we are asking women to lean in, to step up, you touched on it there, what do we need to be asking men to do to assist in rebalancing the scales of leadership further toward women?I think what we are asking men to do is to support their daughters and their wives and their sisters, to make a way for those women to be able to achieve. My dad was an old New South Wales police officer and one day realised that I was getting done in, he couldn't do much to help me but he could to help other women. Men need to be the ones championing the change. They need to be fixing the system, recognising women have babies because they are the ones with the power at this stage and can change the system. When they do that, you can see a huge difference in organisations welcoming to women and allow them to be the best they can possibly be.What's the best piece of advice you ever received from a female leader throughout your career?Well, one of them was about power. This is an issue I think women very much don't want to take into account and this woman said to me "Christine, if you really want to make a difference, you have to get your hands on the power." That was about applying for senior roles, get into the role, get hold of the levers of change, the power that you need, to make a difference. When I came into Victoria Police as Commissioner, it allowed me to make enormous changes in that organisation and I think for the best in our community. You've got to get hold of the power to make the difference. It is not for you, it's not just saying "Gee look how important I am", it is for the difference it can make in our communities. That's why the woman said "Get hold of the levers of power and use them for good."It is often repeated women are their own worst enemies, they pull the ladder up after themselves, are not supportive of other women, is that fact or fiction?Look, I think there are some women who don't want to be associated with supporting other women. I've seen that. But for all of the women I've ever worked with, and Amanda Sinclair, women we have talked to as part of the preparation of this book, there has been a few women like that but most are not like that. Most are supportive and they want to assist other women. I heard a journalist write the other day "What's stopping women now is other women." It is another smokescreen, it is another way to stop women looking to change the systems and to be able to see themselves as leaders and see their work as leadership which is often discounted in that way. It is not seen as proper work. It's what women do. What women do is leadership. We just have to look to change a lot of the definitions.It has been some very valuable insights, thank you. Thank you very much, Emma.

Moving to a new country can be a daunting and often isolating experience. Now a project featuring some of the biggest names in Melbourne's live music scene is helping refugees to settle into Australia. Music With Mates was started by Jebediah frontman Kevin Mitchell, AKA, Bob Evans. It aims to help make friends in the city.

What are the emotional songs about?

It's been three years since Shwe-Win Hton moved to Australia. His family fled Myanmar to escape war. Shwe is officially classified as a stateless person. Legally he has no nationality.

-Win

What's it called?

Do you know who Paul Dempsey is?

This is who you're seeing tonight.

(SINGS) # Lost for words # I got a suitcase full of happily ever after # A beginner's guide.... # Do you like it?

Tonight he is out to experience what Melbourne has to offer.How are you? Good to see you.

Jebediah and Bob Evans' frontman Kevin Mitchell started up Music With Mates with his friend Christine Leahy with the simple aim of using the local music scene to make new arrivals feel welcome.Live performance is amazing. You don't get the same feeling watching a screen or listening to something at home. Seeing a live performance is special. I think there's a shared love for that among many people.We were approached by one of the founders, Kevin Mitchell, who is an old friend of mine. He explained the whole concept in two short sentences and it was just such a simple, wonderful and overwhelmingly positive idea that it was impossible to say no. The email I received was pretty much "We ask bands to provide tickets so we can bring some new arrivals to Australia out together for a meal and to go see a show together."

There were two reasons we did it. We wanted to help people new to Australia and help them feel welcome and help them settle in and make new friends but we also wanted to show there are a lot of really kind-hearted people in Australia that really want to help these people settle in. The idea is we take the same group of people along to three or four gigs together. So they don't just go to one gig and leave, they actually form friendships.Since you have been in Australia, has it been easy to make friends?

Rosie Wu knows just how hard it can be to be new in a big city. Her family moved from China to Ireland and then to Australia without knowing anyone. That's why she volunteers to take the refugees to watch the bands.I know when new migrants or refugees, they come to Australia, they might not speak a lot of English or very little and music helps them to sort of communicate with the community without linguistic barriers. Everyone in the world can understand music, I guess. It's like these kids feel like "Oh, wow, these people don't know me but they're offering me food, offering me music, they're spending time with me", it gives them a feeling of a community and having a family around them.What's their response been once they've been to a gig?Well, they're coming back for me. I take that as a sign they're enjoying it. I think we'd love to see it be something that could work in other places but, yeah, we'll see how we go.

Just discovering a way into not just the music scene but it's like a way into the city, it's a way into the culture. When you discover something you love in a new city, it can blow it all open. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

That's it for from us for tonight. You can find our stories and interviews as always on our website. See you again tomorrow. Goodnight. This program is not captioned.