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G'day, happy Thursday wherever you happen to be, the most fired-up two hours of telly has begun. If you want to be part of Paul Murray Live use #pmlive and email and go searching for Paul Murray Live on Facebook. We have a huge show, including Senator Roberts will join us in the Overtime section. The Treasurer was talking sense trying to educate people on good debt versus bad debt. Good debt is when you borrow money to build stuff. Bad debt is when you borrow money the keep the lights on. When you borrow money to pay for welfare or when you borrow money to pay the wages of a public service. The credit card we have got can let us go up to $500 billion. That debt accrues when every single time a budget deficit exists and we have had a budget deficit in 2008/9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, another one in 17 and likely all the way through to 2020. The interest alone will be enough to do something serious in regional Australia. Good debt versus bad debt is a reasonable conversation to have. But the politics behind this is what is worth noting. The Government needs to re-educate the populus because while the populus say please do something about debt, they say please don't do anything about welfare. The truth is, that the Australian Government is getting more money than it ever has before - andly have some numbers about that in a moment or two - but it's been spending more than ever before. The size and the number of people we have to give a handout to or corporations, is getting bigger. All debt is terrible. But there is a difference between good debt and bad debt. It will be fascinating to see whether the people when they report on the Budget will be able to show that the bad debt is bigger than the good debt. We spend more money on keeping the lights on, paying for welfare and paying for public servants than we do borrowing money to build stuff. With six out of ten households paying no net tax, that means that problem is only going to get bigger and if people refuse to do anything about welfare or give something up, then it is the slow march to Greece. Speaking of Government getting more money than it ever has before, the ABS put out some numbers today to show you about the truth that Government even though commodity prices every now and then, even though certain things will run against them, in raw dollars - have a look at this - these are the numbers. Federal Government last year was $357 billion, it is up to $369 billion. Back in 2010/11, that was $290 billion. So they have got $80 billion more now than they did a few years ago but we are still in the hole because the Budget spends $40 billion more than it makes. At the State Government level, the number has gone from $73 billion to $79, in 2010/11, that was $58 billion. Only a couple of state governments are in surplus and that is because they are flogging off assets. Don't forget about your local council either. Their little pot of money, $15 billion up to $16 billion, but back in 2010/11, they had $12.5 billion. Government is getting more money than it has ever got before. The population has grown but does anyone believe the population has grown so fast in two or three years that the Government is getting $80 billion more than it was in 2010/11 at the federal level. The problem is spending. Spending has been roaring since all of those years. It's been roaring since the global financial crisis. And a lot of the land-mines and time bombs that the Labor Party put into the Budget, they grow and grow and grow. Think about how difficult this is for Scott Morrison. You are getting more money than ever before but you are spending more than you did before. People think that somehow there is a magical solution other than spend less money. There is not a lot of room to put up taxes. Especially when we have a lot of problems at the moment in the corporate sector, where, remember, they had to fight tooth-and-nail for company tax cuts of two and a bit per cent. This is the at the same time as Donald Trump is about to pass through the Republican Congress, their company tax rate will be 15%, the top marginal tax rate 35% in the United States. We will keep on the slow march to Greece. Also some news that comes from Turkey, but it is about Australians. On the terrorist watch list that exists in Turkey, which for many people was the gateway through to Syria and by extension Iraq, this is the first port of call if you wanted to join Isis. They have announced today that there are 400 Australians on the terrorist watch list there. Not 400 Turkish people who have moved from Australia and back, but 400 Australians. Dual citizens that would be able to return to this country. This is at a time when there are more than 500 active terrorist marks that the AFP is looking at right now. This is a huge story. In a part of the world that has had a very lax idea about people passing through its country to get to the Bad Lands, they are now willing to start to count the cost, 400 people on their list, 500 on our list here and those people, most of them will have a right to return to this country. It is an extraordinary development. Finally, as a fat man you would think I would think McDonald's home delivery is a wonderful idea. Isn't the whole problem with McDonald's that because they cook the food now a couple of minutes after you have ordered, that little gap of buyer's remorse which normally you need to make a small as possible to eat the crap that you order, it needs to be as short as possible, so when you order the bigger, you want it in your hand and in your gob within two minutes. Once you start to get to four, to five, to six, you go, do I need the nuggets? Let alone home delivery! I might have to try it to make sure it works. Let me know what you think - #pmlive and When was the last time you had McDonald's Liz?I think I would be one of those who would give that a try, the home delivery. I'm sad to say it. Yes, anyway. Under-fire Australian Olympic Committee President John Coates has apologised over a leaked email in which he made derogatory comments about an employee. Mr Coates used the term 'sheltered workshop' in reference to a cancer patient - he now admits it was the 'wrong choice of words'. Former Northern Territory Corrections Minister John Elferink has accused the ABC's Four Corners of misleading the public in its program that sparked a Royal Commission. The ABC tried to stop the Royal Commission from accepting Mr Elferink's statement, which accused the national broadcaster of sensationalist reporting. Syria's military says Israeli missiles are the cause of a large explosion that rocked the capital Damascus. Witnesses say the blast occurred in a section of the Damascus International Airport, but there have been no reports of casualties. Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair has admitted he believes the Conservative Party will retain Government at the upcoming General Election. The former Labour Leader says his party's best option to win votes is to tell the public that a 'strong opposition' is essential to a democracy. Australian television legend Bert Newton is back in hospital after another health scare. His wife Patti brought him to the Epworth in Melbourne yesterday amid concerns about a persistent cough. He is expected to head home tomorrow.

Those are the latest news headlines. Back to Paul Murray.Thank you very much. I appreciate it. If you want to be part of the show, #pmlive. We will be joined by some guests from around the country. Right now, with me Fiona Scott, who has been slowly but surely teaching my daughter how to ride a house.It's been fantastic.A man who loves betting on them is Stuart Bocking, how are you?I'm well.The lady who is too healthy for horsemeat would be none other than...Not nuggets.Alright, Michael Kroger joins us from Melbourne. That tan is sensational! I don't know if it is make-up. You have a touch of the Trump and I love it!A bit of both. All that talk about McDonald's, it is full of fat but I had a fillet of fish the other night and it was magnificent.Good boy!And a Diet Coke!That will be alright then. I can't believe I'm talking about home delivery in the UK for McDonald's, but Darrin Barnett from the Mckell Institute, thoughts?I'm no stranger to McDonald's. If they want to find me at home, so be it!I love a good caramel sundae, I hope they know how to keep them cold!That's true. Rolling coverage of McDonald's in the UK will be on...Rolling being the term!Good debt versus bad debt. This is how it was reported. We haven't heard this for a while. Things are beginning to look up. Something else we haven't heard.In this Budget we will be making changes to the way we report Government debt.Dividing the billions owed to show...The difference between good debt and bad debt.That difference? Borrowing for welfare spending is bad, but borrowings for growth producing infrastructure like road, rail and ports is good.Infrastructure and investment can change the nature of cities.And win votes. It seems there is no longer a debt and deficit disaster.Everyone understands that.But when he was driving the debt truck.Everybody understands...His understanding was different.The higher the level of Government debt, the higher the level of taxes and interest rates will be in the future.Now debt is much higher at $489 billion and the anti-debt argument has a new driver. I tell you what is not good debt. It is when you increase the amount of debt that Australians owe so you can give a tax handout to your rich mates.OK, let's call it straightaway. The debt has grown because the expenditure grows, as I showed a couple of seconds ago, the Government is getting more money than it has in recent years. $80 billion more than in 2010 and we know it is the expenditure and the Labor Party that of course took us from surplus to deep deficit who have said no to every cut in the world, that is why we are where we versus bad
are. Can you believe good debt versus bad debt is a headline story? versus Well, I can because no-one before has put it in those stark terms, everyone has been told that the debt truck, increasing debt is a bad thing. Scott Morrison does make the good point that if you are spending money on roads, schools, hospitals, ports, bridges, freeways, traditional infrastructure assets, they are good for the economy and for the country, you take a riskier stance when you go into things like desalination plants, pink bat schemes, the NBM, they are untraditional infrastructure spends. Morrison makes a good point. Long-term assets like that infrastructure is a problem at a time when interest rates are very low - probably not. The recurrent spending has to be taken out and separated so people can understand it. The big issue is the - look at the level of state taxation. State taxation has increased 7% in the last year, built on the back of property tax increases which are Stamp Duty. 12% increase. The property market is going to cool in due course. Those 12% increases are completely unsustainable so state governments have to be very careful about their budget deficits. The point about the dilemma that the Treasury is in, which is compared to 2010, it is $80 billion more but there is still $40 billion in the hole year-to-year because that is how they spend more than they make. It is not about solving the welfare problem, but it is about trying to re-educate how people look at the budget papers to say we borrow for building, we borrow to keep the lights on?That is true, why are we hearing it 12 days out from a Budget? You have the Budget coming up soon and we are hearing this now. Yes, there is an argument that there is good debt and there is bad debt to fund recurrent spending, the problem is if it is getting to the point where you can't peg the debt back, the debt keeps growing despite the fact as though figures show taxation revenue keeps growing and you have a problem with debt, whether it is good or bad. At some point it has to be paid off by someone. And the idea that good debt is going into infrastructure, how often now does that infrastructure spending get farmed out to the private sector anyway?This is it. We are not seeing governments invest in infrastructure in the way they once did because it is better off outsourcing it.Fiona, when you are on the hustings trying to win, it was a much easier for you to say debt, debt, debt, one big round number. If you were trying to explain the difference between good debt and bad debt, is the truth about modern politics that as soon as you start getting into the grey, you start losing the argument?Look, I think when you are on the hustings and talking to people on the ground in middle Australia places, a lot of people's concerns about how does the Government policy affect me, how does it affect my home, how does it affect my household? Understanding the hundreds of pages of Budget books is not something that people necessarily get. I think what Scott Morrison has tried to do today has made the conversation about the Budget something that people can grab hold of and understand in a better way. Now, what we do see is exactly the point you have made several times, when six in ten households are taking more from the Government purse than what they are contributing, we have a problem with that balance. Now, Scott Morrison has a very challenging position to be able to find means to which to get the Budget in order, particularly when the Labor Party have blocked just about every measure they possibly can for very many years and then Bill Shorten has the hide to stand up there and say, yes, but the Liberal Party have done this. No, you are the one, you are the one who has blocked the measures in the Senate, you are the one, you the are part of the Government that started these big black holes by pink bats, by $900 cheques to dead people. So I think we do need to have a whole Government approach, to come on board with the comments that Scott Morrison has made today, to say good debt, bad debt, we need to find a way. We need to have a degree of by partisanship to get our Budget back into control.The reality is you are rewarded for pointing it's the other guy's fault. Does anyone learn something today that they didn't know?Yes, when you are in opposition, it is convenient to have all that big number under one umbrella that is bad, bad, bad, but when you are in Government rnings you want to get into the nuance of things. Having said that, I do think that the Government does need to do a better job of educating people because the reality is, nobody wants anything taken away from them. We want the Budget deficit to go down but we don't want to lose out on anything and the only way to do that is to sell in the why and to educate people why that money needs to go. The Australian public, sometimes when they say I don't want my money, politicians will have to say we will stiff whatever.Michael, isn't the problem for politicians now, and the Government, that you support right now, is that the difficulty for them is that they are arguing almost against the culture where almost every other part of our culture is about me first, the concept about delayed gratification is one that went out when we started to get the mobile phone, you are arguing - sure, you are arguing with the side of the Angels, but you are arguing against the habit that people have about their day-to-day life?It is largely true. What we have seen in Australia in recent years is that people say should we cut Government expenditure? Yes. If we cut it and it will affect you, do you want it to be cut? No. So, you are right. We have this paradox in Australia where people feel that there is some kind of, you know, economic responsibility to cut the deficit but so long as it doesn't affect them. This is one of the great problems in Australia today. What Scott Morrison is trying to do is separate what the country needs which is it's got to have capital works and capital expenditure, but he is saying, on the other hand, here is what the income is, here is what the expenditure is, and the two don't marry. There is a point at which governments will have to say current expenditure and current income have to balance and that is the challenge for the Government going long-term. Of course, Shorten at some stage has to own up. He did at it with the Omnibus Bill, he has to say more Government expenditure has say to be cut. Otherwise it will difficult for Labor to win the election if the focus is on the Budget.I always would love to see a meeting between Prime Minister, Opposition Leader, Treasurer. You are rewarding for saying no in this country?That is true. The expectations of the public that no-one wants to be a loser at any given point in time by any decision makes Australia a tough place to govern. But it is also true, the Government has been in power for four years now for an entire Olympiad, they can't continue to credibly blame those who came before them and ultimately the buck stops with the Treasurer. Look, I'm over here at the moment, I have a Senate inquiry hearing into the petroleum rent resource tax tomorrow, there is a proposal that would raise $3 billion a year in Government revenue. I sincerely hope the Treasurer is watching and he steps up to the plate but I doubt that he will. There are two sides to the equation. Yes, spending needs to be pulled back, but there are other measures that can raise revenue without impacting on the lives of every day Australians.There was a recent debate that highlights very clearly the depth of the problems we are facing. You were a part of it, many others - with the superannuation reforms. People jumped up-and-down, at a modest attempt to rein in some of the benefits within the superannuation scheme. It was going to hurt the Liberal base, it was attacking the base. That forced the Government to retreat on some of those things where there was a mood in the Senate for them to go even further. That says to me that if you can't make some of those incremental changes, when everybody is saying that some of the arrangements are too generous, how do you make progress? And this is, to me, it typifies - I know it is easy to go after the Welfare Bill, that is $44 billion, but modest attempts were made around superannuation, they were beaten out of town.That is fair. I want to talk about what is happening in the United States with Donald Trump. A promise - this seems to be, at least he put it on paper, it is a one-pager, to do something about their tax system that they would dramatically drop the company tax rate 15%, the top marginal tax rate will be 35%. It's a great plan.President Trump's plan calls for big corporate and personal tax cuts. But lacks basic details. The President wants to replace the current seven personal income tax brackets with three, with rates of 10, 25 and 35%. His proposal, however, did not give income levels for those brackets. White House economic advisor...Do you have income brackets established?We are holding a bunch of listening groups right now. We have a broad brush view.There were some details. Eliminate the estate tax and alternative minimum tax. Preserve personal deductions for mortgage interest and charitable donations. And on the business side, lower the corporate tax rate from 35% to 15%. It is the last of those that is the thing that matters more than anything else here. If he is able to do that, and we had this almighty fight in Australia to move it down, if he can get 15% as the new rate, or if it is negotiated to 20%, we will be looking stupid closer to 30%, aren't we?You say that. I don't think the trickle down economics has delivered what it's proponents say it has over that period of time since the Reagan-Thatcher era. You have seen inequality grow, company profits at record highs. I don't believe lowering the tax rate to that level makes sense. That is something that the Government took to the election and they nearly lost from 23 seats up. So, I think there is a bit more to play at before we should follow that same path.Michael, presumably, on the same argument the left wants to have about climate change, if the biggest economy in the world is pushing it down to 15%, that will only strengthen the hand of the Government?Certainly in Australia, yes, it will. It will frighten governments around the world because if America is at 15%, that will make it very difficult for Australia, Britain, who have much higher rates. A couple of things. $200 billion a year. I'm not sure Trump will get this through the Congress. I mean, there is a large part of the Republican congressional membership who are basically going to say if you want to have that cut, you have to find offsetting savings. They won't increase the Budget deficit by that amount every year. I'm not certain he is going to get this through. The Senate is 52-48, he has to get every Republican Congressman to agree with this. And that is hard also.There are always people who are up for re-election. What do you think of the plan?I can hear Scott Morrison framing it - there's good tax and bad tax. The good tax is the tax you are paying and the bad tax is the tax I'm being asked to pay. Correct.What do we have at the next election? Will he be driving around the good debt truck? Will that be... Who will be behind the wheel of the bad debt truck?The idea that we will have three bands but we won't tell you what those bands are and the entire - they are not going to say they will rewrite the entire tax code, but this was literally a one sheeter, it was a press release. Welcome to the Trump administration. Welcome Very light on detail.Which I fully support.Very light on More than 140 characters.You can't fit a lot of detail into that many characters. At the base of the whole company tax issue, all you want is for Australia to be competitive for business. If we are in a situation where that is not the case, we are in trouble.This is the thing. We can have the trickle down argument all night one and lose viewers by the minute! So let's do it quickly! Do you agree or disagree with the concept of the less tax that big business pays means the more money they put back into R&D or employing people?I think tax is relative to the objective of the economy and the Government at the time. Now, if we are going into a global environment where corporate tax rates are down to 15%, sure if it is negotiated to 20%. We need a tax rate that is competitive in that environment. That is what we are operating in. So I think taxes need to be competitive. I don't necessarily agree with the three tax thresholds and jumping from 10% to 25% is way too big and there possibly should be some breaks between because you then get to the point of disincentives of moving to the next tax bracket and people doing various things. I don't necessarily agree with that jump in particular. If you are talking about an income tax rate of 35%, when ours is exceeding that...Plus levies... The other thing about American taxation and Australian taxation is we have two of the most complicated taxation systems in the world. Now, in Australia, you have a plethora of council rates and duties, you have state taxes and rebates and all sorts of crazy things. Then you have federal taxes. The compliance costs for businesses and individuals are very high. How many mums and dads out there in the back-yards in Australia can do their own tax? How many have to go to a tax specialist and freak out in a couple of weeks' time when taxes are due even to do their own taxes? One thing I did see, if this is where Trump is going, compliance issues where being able to lodge a tax return is easier. Now, one of the things that has disappointed me, when Malcolm Turnbull in particular had tried to have this conversation about taxation, how do we reform the system? How do we go down the line? Labor Party came up with every reason why you can't have this conversation. At the end of the day, compliance costs every single household in this country, it costs every single business. We should make doing business in Australia cheaper. We should make Australian businesses more competitive. We should have tax rates that build our economy.There is plenty more to talk about that so we will take a quick break and we will talk about the videotape that proves Peter Dutton is right. More in a second.

Thanks for watching. Back to the wide shot. A few people have hit me on Twitter here. Yes, I'm wearing bogan and I
sports shoes and no socks. I'm a bogan and I didn't have anything else. I'm going to own it, this is my pins.This is the perils of those end. You want
cameras.I should have stayed on the end. You want my socks?I'm wearing pyjama pants. It's been a bad week on the pokies. Is your shirt tucked in tonight? Yes, it is, unlike the Logies. Here Yes, in conversation with Rachel Corbett, the star better dressed Stuart the Bocking and the delightful Fiona Bocking Scott joined by Michael Kroger in Melbourne, Darrin Barnett in Perth. The introductions take up most of the show tonight. Let's talk about Peter Dutton. And this is what Melbourne, Andrew Bolt did on his show last night talking about a piece of evidence he's become aware of that proves why Peter Dutton has been as absolute as he has been about the situation on Manus Island and detainees leading a kid towards their quarters.What is -- what his critics should have said was the being
same CCTV footage does show the boy being talked well inside the camp, not just hanging outside it. Walked well inside the camp for a couple of minutes, by three men. One of them holding him by his shoulder almost all the way.That meant the guardian went into meltdown and we got this went from them today. Amazing how well informed they are about what's happening inside detention centres:

So, Darrin Barnett, what's the deal here, because clearly the minister has seen footage that for whatever happening reason will not be released. He says it shows one thing and the detainees it say they were giving a boy a piece of fruit but apparently it took a few blokes to do it and it had to happen deep inside the detention centre.I simply don't know, and that's part of the problem, there's too
too much secrecy about whaps in our detention centres. There should be a mechanism where sensible members across the parliamentary divide can see this footage. I accept it's probably classified, it doesn't need to be seen by the public overall. But there must be or should be some sort of mechanism where you can have sort
a panel of people say, "This is what occurred. The minister is correct. Therefore, we move on." But the problem is that we don't know. We haven't seen it, and there's been a lot of things happen behind closed doors, and barbed wire fences over the past few years and nobody knows what goes on inside these centres.I don't think a former detective will what make stuff up. He's doubled down on what he said but this is a bloke who's hardly fitting people up for fake evidence.Yeah, I agree with Darrin. This is one of the great issues about the secrecy that surrounds these places and a problem when you get into a situation where it's he said, she said and you have to take my word for it. I don't think it's a surprise that people when may think a politician could be fibbing. There isn't the great track record on people thinking they to their word and there is a sense particularly around refugees in detention of covering things up and keeping things secret. But who heck knows? Who the heck knows. We don't know any information about don't what's going on over there so that's a big difficulty. Alright. There's plenty to talk about here, so not everyone will get a whack at every topic. I want to move on to bigger things, the gas situation, the Prime Minister saying the Federal Government will step in and will start to affect the market. He won't go full Venezuela but have a look. Running low on gas and Malcolm Turnbull's run out of patience. Frustrated by the big producers, he'll restrict what they can send overseas when supplies at home are low.Decisive action in the national interests. Up to 65,000 jocks are at risk he say it's and prices through the roof.Australian businesses, Australian jobs, Australian families have to come first. It will, he promises, bring down prices.People are being offered prices of $20 a giga jewel. It should be around half that or less. Later clarifying saying he meant wholesale customers.This is not saying that all gas prices will be halved as a result. Alarmed at the intervention, the peak body doubts it will ease the price or supply.The only sustainable way to keep prices down is to reduce the costs of developing the gas. What a surprise there. I do think there's a big issue in all of this, I know Michael you spoke about it a bit earlier today, but I think there's a big issue here, too. type
Rather than just working about the type of gas that exists now, we are in a situation where there's an awful lot of state governments that for local political reasons are against the exploration of gas. We're in this strange moment where against there's a lot of people who literally at the start of their show will talk about the need for coal fired power but at the end of the show will argue against mines that big up coal. People will say we need to free up the gas market but don't part
go fracking anywhere. Is this not part of the complication?Absolutely it is. Look, what we're seeing here is this. Governments around the world, point made today, western governments around the world are basically looking to self-determination. What's in the basically national interest? This whole movement towards borderless countries where refugees can come and go, where cross border transaction in relation to fences, laws in the EU apply to Britain and all other countries. Basically, governmentings have to look after their own countries and their own electors first. Essentially what Malcolm Turnbull is saying we're not allowed to mine uranium in Australia. Wear told we can't use coal any more. A lot of the gas is being sent offshore because of overseas contract cost with the fact that - in relevance to the establishment of the gas plants. establishment What we have is one of the most energy rich countries in the world with massively high electricity prices, high gas prices, and it just doesn't figure. Malcolm Turnbull's saying, "For goodness sake, Australia has to look after Australia's interests once and for all. Why would your consumers be maying really high prices for electricity and gas when we're one of the most naturally rich countries in the world in terms of coal and maying gas?" Of course the final point is in relation to gas. Of course there should be traditional gas exploration onshore. We can't have uranium, can't have uranium, can't have gas, be like South uranium, run by candlelight. That's what's happening over there. I agree. Darrin, get your view on this in a second. I know you're across it. But Stuart, as you are as well here. What do you think of this intervention, how does it work? When the minister was asked by David Speers it was not exactly - wasn't Trump yin in the lack of detail but it wasn't exact about when it in and how it works.I think that's one of the big questions. Malcolm Turnbull only a week or so ago was trying to knock heads together within the gas industry and didn't have a lot of luck there. 24 is no You
easier a collage, put it that way. You look -- challenge, put it that way. Look at one of the supposed answers to housing affordability and the talk is you have to increase the supply of new dwellings. I don't see how you have an impact on price here supply the we say, "We're not going to expand the actual gas output, we're goss
simply going to rearrange how much goss goes overseas and how much gas we keep for ourselves here." That is we not incriesing the overall supply. increased how
If the overall supply isn't increased how does the price fall? True. Darrin, what about that? It's not just about how much we pay here. I have to say the gas industry will say what they're going to say, but the gas can't just be picked up and moved somewhere else and then get it out of the ground. It's here, it's ours, ours to negotiate however we want. But we have to increase supply don't we?Increasing supply is a fine thing to say but we will be the world's biggest exporter of LNG by 2019. Qatar at the moment holds that man tell. We will equal and surpass them not long after. This isn't an issue of supply, it's an issue of issue market failure. Now, it's actually market very difficult to fix because those long-term contracts have been signed in good faith, so it's difficult to try and manipulate the market after the horse has bolted. But, I don't fracking
personal -- personally accept that fracking is the answer necessarily. It's a false choice to say you're the world's biggest exporter but the only way to get cheap gas to run home
your gas stove and your lights at home is to frack. There must be a way for governments to organise themselves and organise the market so that it delivers benefits for all. Tell us what you think at #pmlive or email at If you would like to join us Monday email 15 May and if you're near the central coast leagues club in NSW, Treasurer Scott Morrison will be Treasurer taking questions from you. It's not about journalists or me. I play traffic cop as he is there to take whatever question yos have about the Budget. It will be the week after the Budget, after a lot of the dust Budget. has settled in terms of political commentary. The big or little issues, stuff that affects you or send
the country. If you want to join send me an email at, if you are connected to union, political group, political party, declare that. If People's Liberation Army decide they're going to turn up and ask questions about Gonski you'll get two and that will be about it. Make sure you're open and honest and we'll get as many voices on as possible. If you want to join us, tickets are free. They're free honest so don't ask for a hundred. Audience at Sky You have to be more creative if you want to crack this room. Quick break. Back with more, plenty to talk about including whether or
channel 2's website talking about they
whether or not asking a child if they can wipe their bottom is whether something that will help them avoid

Thank you for watching us tonight. My shoes which many are commenting whether conversation
on, #pmlive. We're here in on,
conversation with Fiona Scott, Stuart Bocking, Rachel Corbett, let's get the cameras back to you. She deserves a silent T. And Darrin Barnett.Barnett. How do you class Michael Kroger? Crow get.Can't be improved on. Can't be improved on. Absolutely. Let's talk about - She Shorten today wanted us to first remember he exists but secondly to talk about housing affordability and talk he uses some language I wanted to talk about more than anything else. Talking about everyone trying to ape Trump at the moment. What about this It is too hard for ordinary Trump Australians to live out the great Australian dream of getting their first home because the housing market for first home own srs rigged against ordinary Australians. -- owners is rigged against ordinary Australians. It is not a level playing field, and the situation is rigged.Twice. He said the housing market is rigged. This is full hit. I'm sorry to keep swearing but it's the way I am. As I talk about with housing affordability and if housing changed it to a car, you want a Barina and you want a Porsche, nobody said the government should nobody get involved.He's a very ordinary Australian, he owns a house. What about the word "rigged". Deliberately going there, that's a Deliberately deliberate calculation.It's trillions and trillions of dollars the value of Australian property. And by and large it's owned by ordinary Australians. And the idea that it's rigged, well, in what way inThe only thing that's rigged is most of the MPs - all of the MPs own property
about half a billion-dollar worth of negatively geared
property because they're all negatively geared and they have multiple properties. The idea the government can step in - I also need to think we need to take personal responsibility for overdebting ourselves and racing to auctions and putting our hands up and say, "I'm happy to raise my land for this ludicrous price that is overinflated." Real estate agents underpricing properties, this has been part of this frenzy, handing happy out money for a first homeowner's grant. All of this is part of the problem that has led to the situation where we're the little frogs in the pot that's been slowly heating. It's boiling, we're trying to get out. The horse has bolted. But why is "rigged" OK?It is a calculated thing and he's making the point that there are advantages for those using negative gearing to participate in the housing market that may not be able to be used by first home buyers. So, it's not a level playing field. He's deliberately being emotive. It's clearly an issue that's resonating with the public, probably with had
internal polling. So to government had said previously that housing affordability would be the centrepiece of the buchct they've Bill's
crab walked away from that. So Bill's playing politics and that's what you do when you're in Opposition. As I say through, I understand where the poll dicks is now but I am fearful about the government jumping into the quick sand of housing affordability.
affordability. Because there are 24 million variables in the market - the individuals who own a house and want it to go through the roof and those who want to buy and want it to go through the floor. They don't meet.We're seeing many buyers using negative gearing where many decided their first entry point on to the property ladder will be through property Shorten
negative gearing. What is Bill Shorten og bon its rigged?Yeah, but the market isn't home jeanous across the country. Cricket.We have big issues in countries but in places like Darwin we don't have those sorts of issues. It's
It's not like the issue is across issue we
the country. I think the bigger issue we have seen here, and there's two. One, there's Andrewsth pa logical one where we think we can logical live, work and ply like we did in the 1950s and everyone can have a quarter acre block. In Sydney there's something called the great dividering -- dividing range that's we
west. You can't go past that unless we drill through the mountains and settle in Lithgow. Until that happens we have to work out if we're going -- we're going to put another million people into western Sydney, the types of dwelling we live in the have to go smaller.We have to go up, not just out.We have to rethink how we live and what we live in. It doesn't mean everyone can have the mansion on the quarter acre block. The other side is for too long we have had the view where the city is how the centre of the wheel is everything else is a spoke out. We need to create employment where people live and jobs closer to where people live - jobs closer to where people live and employment has to be more diversified. I think these more issues are important with housing affordability. If that means jobs go to the bush then jobs go to the bush. But look at the -- fight about trying to move to public servants. But It's the APV. The agricultural veterinarian committee. Would you not want to move - they want one Federal organisation that probably could
could go to the bush.Now a bit of culture war stuff. There's a clanger today. This is a person writing a piece unsurprising on the ABC's opinion site. Let me read it to you and we can collectively roll our eyes but still, have a look. It's about consent. Basically, how they're going after gender fairies and, if you teach kids about consent and their bodies young it means as they get through the teenage and and older years they know they're in charge of their bodies:

As an example here. Thanks for helping but what is this garbage, Rachel?I don't know. I mean, there's a whole bunch of things including the link to a great video from the Thames police that is called tea and consent where they try and explain consent by saying - setting up this cartoon about asking for a cup of tea. I thought it was a try -- take. It's not. Pshl the idea that... We will have that video on the show next week.Please, it is amazing. your
But the idea that you have to teach your kids it's not OK to touch them yoshgs u have to ask your kid. I remember as a kid you used to run up, grab your friends, hug them. When I have kids if they want to hug every single person that walks by I will be so proud of that little tik. every My little one I'm bringing up at the moment, I'm loving she's tack tile, cuddly, running over to other people.It's great. Darrin, you know this. When the time is right to talk about consent but is do we need to be getting into, "Do you need help wiping your bottom?"A lot of what was said in that excerpt I'm OK with having private zones and you can't... OfrjtBut it doesn't lead -- of course. But Z doesn't equal J. It doesn't lead to avoiding confronting conversations about rape. The two things don't line up in my view. Look, we're big on parenting in the sense of trying to teach our kids what's right and wrong, what he's acceptable and unacceptable but Y doesn't equal -- X doesn't equal Y there. Maybe I was asleep, but we cured cancer, paid off the debt, no Maybe homelessness because this is front and centre. How did this happen? Paul, to be honest I don't think Paul, there's anything I can usefully idea to -- add to this discussion. Without ending up many in quotes in Without different newspapers.Without some clown in the media saying something. Victorian Liberals are...Yes. Can Victorian we get back on to gas prices Donald Trump?
Alright.No, before we do, I want to make one comment about what Shaun said. A very clever use of words rigged.
today by Bill Shorten saying it's rigged. This is part of a very clever - this 12 Trump Esk in the sense that Trump - one of the reasons he was so successful is he created a few you're all outsiders, being ripped off by the system, that being swamp that needs to be trained. Shorten today says it's rigged against you, the system is rigged against you. You're an outsider, I'll help you. It was complete and I'll utter nonsense. If there's ever been a less rigged market in Australia it's the housing market where there are auctions, it's a total free market. This completely base politics by Shorten and utter, utter nonsense.Alright. What do do you think about some identity stuff here, Fiona?Look, I think overwhelmingly it's quite ridiculous and it's a bit over the top. However, I don't think it's a bad thing to teach children boundaries and I think boundaries are somewhat important. But I think this article really is telling people - you know, it's... I mean, if you're sitting there thinking over your 18-month-old about how you're going there's
to protect them from being -- raped there's probably some really big concerns in your context.Their social - you have to have a conversation with nem about a specific inns enter D -- incident. If something happened, you say this is why it's wrong. You can't fill them with fear about touching somebody because you create a problem.And what also creating the individual and self-esteem collages will the individual have. But also later in life whenever sexual urges and masturbation gets involved. I think it's an area where - come on.But there's no context to it. The way they portray it there, we're at the cafe, finish with the iPad, i fi is off. "So, do you need your bottom wiped?" It's ridiculous. your Would you like sugar with that? That's the point. There is no context to any of it. Something not in this one but it's interesting. I can't believe I'm about to say this, an interesting. thing I read in the Age today. Good, forget I said it. An interesting thing today about hospitality workers in Victoria and the abuse that a lot of people just don't see that happens. You know this if you it if
worked in a bar, you may have known it if you worked in a hotel. Stuff that happens. It's interesting to that look at. It is informed largely by union stuff but it doesn't mean it's not worth looking at. There's a national survey by United voice. 89% work.
had suffered sexual harassment at people surveyed.
work. Women, majority of the 300 people surveyed. There's a lot of people who do jobs right now who - when nay hear about television presenters and high-profile, powerful people being able to push back against massive companies and get cheered in by all the people on Twitter when the reality is it's the person working behind the bar or cleaning the hotel room that might get hit up, I think it's important to
to mention in a big national forum like this.I think it's probably an issue because a lot of those workers working
are younger. I know when I was working - I think there was a fast food
food restaurant that was talked about in the article and that's the age where I think you are definitely more vulnerable. I certainly age experienced it working in fast food restaurants when I was younger. I have always been the kind of person that's gone, "You are an idiot" to the aggressor. Would you like fries with that and hash?This kind of garbage. And just sexual comments. But I have always hash? been bit of an eye roller at that kind of stuff but obviously men in that situation where as as a 14 and nine months girl, you've got these a
20 plus-year-old men who think, "I'm a manager at this store and I can treat you like this." To be honest, not everybody's - relationship where, as a kid, you
don't know how to stand up against somebody like that, you don't know whether it is good or bad because there is a part of you like is this normal? So I totally get that that happens.Darrin, I don't care how necessarily - let's imagine they have made it 25% worse, it is still a massive problem for a lot of people here and this is the sort of stuff we have to talk about. This is the real world.It is the real world. I think the idea - and Rachel touched on it - there is a misuse of the power differential between older people in the workplace, or owners in the workplace and who may not know how to defend themselves. That has probably been occurring for a long-time. We should be looking at ways to stamp out that behaviour.Two quick ones: In Victoria there is about to be more changes to the jail system. Have a look. The proposed law changes mean