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This program is not captioned. This program is live captioned by Ericsson Access Services. Hello there. Welcome to The Drum. I'm Julia Baird. Coming up - Ted Cruz booed at the Republican National Convention after refusing to endorse Donald Trump.

Two of America's post powerful men embroiled in separate sex scandals. And is there really overwhelming support for a same-sex marriage plebiscite?

plebiscite? And joining me on our panel this evening, we have the host of ABC's The Business Ticky Fullerton, David Hetherington, the Executive Director at Per Capita think tank, welcome. Mostafa Rachwani from the Lebanese Muslim Association joins us, and Amelia Lester who is the editor of The Yorker.
Good Weekend, normerly the New Yorker. Welcome all. And you can join in on Twitter using the to
hashtag "thedrum". This was meant to be the convention that would unite the Republican party, but dramatic scenes from Day 3 in Cleveland have instead provided further evidence of the deep animosities and divisions in the GOP. Tex an Senator Ted Cruz, the man who ran second to Donald Trump in the primaries, fired up the crowd with a speech championing conservative values. Take a look. Freedom means free speech, not politically correct safe spaces. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)Freedom means religious freedom, whether you are Christian or Jew, Muslim or atheist, whether you are gay or straight, the Bill of Rights protects the rights of all of us to live according to our conscience. AND APPLAUSE)Freedom means the right to keep and bear arms and to protect your family. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE).Pre-dom means that every human life is precious and must be protected. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) AlFreedom means Supreme Court justices who don't dictate policy but instead follow the Constitution.And then just as Senator Cruz starts to wrap up, it dawns on Mr Trump's New York delegation that their man is not going to be officially endorsed.If you love our country and love your children as much as I know that you do, stand and speak and vote your conscience, vote for candidates up and down the ticket who you trust to defend our freedom and to be faithful to the Constitution. CHANTING.Now, as you can hear, at that point the crowd is starting to chant, "Endorse Trump!" And Senator Cruz's wife was escorted from the floor by a party member who said he fear for her safety. Amelia Lester, what did you make of these scenes? Of a pretty extraordinary day at the RNC, nothing seen like this for decades. I would describe Ted Cruz's performance as mischievous if that - in that he did sign a pledge, the others said they would endorse the ultimately successful candidate, he also didn't have to accept an invitation to speech at the convention. There are no former presidents there and John Kasich, the governor of Ohio, the State in which the convention is being held, declined to attend because he doesn't approve of Trump, so it was miss sheaf Crows.Trat jik misdheef?Well, one says he is unlikable nahcy cyst on par with trump who justs want to hear him speak. This is a man who bought his wife 100 cans of Campbell soup as a wedding gift because he knew she didn't like cooking and I guess it was the most romantic gift he could think ofRight.So I think we are dealing with a guy who maybe suffers from lapses of judgement, but very mischievously waited until the very last moment to say he won't be endorsing Trump.David, don't you think it is a bit bizarre to be setting someone up in that position anyway? Shouldn't be asked. Nobody thinks of Donald Trump. We know he says he is a nahcy cyst and liar and unfit to be dprmpt PresidentClearly they endorsement.
needed senior Republican endorsement. They found a party grande in Ted Cruz, but it is entirely unsurprising that Cruz has behaved the way he has. There is no-one person more reason than to dislike Donald Trump. He has stolen his identity, he has insulted his wife, he has said that his father was involved in an assassination. Ted Cruz r Cruz is positioning himself a little bit like Boris Johnson positioned himself in the Brexit campaign, so taking a position against the leadership of your own party on the bet basically that a later outcome will eve you stronger internally, so I think Cruz is betting, "If Trump loseses, I've said what I this I about the whole thing and I come through as a stronger candidate." But the problem with that is he only makes Trump stronger by doing this. The All the people who think, "I'm sick of mainstream politics, they are all backstabbing. You can't trust them. Stabbing one another in the back at their national convention." Not very clear words, and for all of these discussions, Ticky, no so much about Trump's actual personality. He has captured the personality in celebrity and some kind of imaginative sense about what he could do.And in many people's eyes he is actually showing some leadership. I think what will come out of this may well be, as you are saying, an awful lot of people and an awful lot of Democrats who are not particularly interested in Hillary Clinton and this sort of show and display by Ted Cruz and not going quite the way that the Trump group had planned, this actually may play very well amongst undecided voters out among the Democrats, I think, and this would encourage them to go Trump as well. This is such a bizarre - something not has played out in any way. A bit like Brexit, I agree, no-one knows how people will be twisted and turned but such a maverick, isn't he, TrumpIt seems like every convention is turned on its head, pirouetted, smashed. Mostafa, what did you think?I think it's usual unusual that they teld it oups a strong platform in the way to deliver their speeches and messages and they like to shut down that which might criticise them Donald Trump was looking to build momentum towards the next campaign, a lot of voices out there saying that was his goal and he wasn't back to basics with it, but I find it kind of hypocritical of people, es legsly from the Republican party to speak about free speech when a lot of the times platforms for people to challenge some of the more outlandish views, often base their entire campaigns on xenophobia and racism, so free speech has to be a balance on both sides of the debate.How do you see that playing out here? We are all so fascinated by this campaign and we know that it has global ramifications. What do you think of Trump's success, irrespective of what happens, around the Muslim debate; immigration, free speech?It is quite scary, I have to be straight, it is quite scary to see the unbelievable success he has at rallying people's emotions and playing on people's fear, and we've had a national conversation on fear whether
over the past couple of days about whether or not that is a justification for certain people's opinions, but we are seeing an entire campaign for presidency based on fear and the power reverberating around the entire nation. It is quite scary from a Muslim perspective. Them calling out and booing him, just the numbers, horrifying in some sense, the success that he has had and all the people who are there shouting for him to be brought on and shouting for his success, especially considering the hate upon which he has built his campaign. I must say it is quite frightening. Frmpblingts an Australian perspective, we have seen growing voices, and Pauline Hanson on Q&A this week, that have found success on the same platform, but I'm hoping that most the of the community can rise above some of the rhetoric that Donald Trump has used.Barnaby Joyce has been responding to some of the calls to cap Muslim immigration and to have cameras in mosques, I think.Every group has their ratbags, even Catholics, IRA; a lunatic fringe, but you can't go through every say,
person of the Islamic faith and say, "They are all just like him." Ed Husic is on the other side of the chamber from me, he is a decent person, a decent man, Sam Dastyari, I won't start throwing stones at people. It's just not the way Australia works.What's your perspective on this, Amelia? Are there things we don't understand because
about the free speech debate because we don't live in America?I think freedom - I think every country has one kind of core principle that they hold to and freedom is the American one and I couldn't help but notice with Ted Cruz's repeated use of the word "freedom", the notion that freedom is not just freedom to do something, but also freedom from something, so the memorial quoting FZR references freedom of speech, but also talks about freedom from fear and freedom from want, so I think sometimes when Republicans in particular invoke the notion of freedom, they forget it's not just about rights, it's not just about the right or the freedom to do something, it is also freedom from fear, freedom to do what you want without the fear of violence or retalation.Ticky, do you think there is an issue with free speech here?In terms of political correctness, I do think there is a problem, so on one side you've got hate speech and fear and that side of things and on the other side you've got political correctness and I'm allowed to call you lot "you guys" anymore, or David Morrison tells me I shouldn't be doing that. Now that personally - I don't understand that sort of extreme.But when it comes to discussing Islam, where do you see around
the parameters of free speech around that?Well, I think it is - it is becoming very complicated. It is not a simple thing anymore and I think people are trying to make it very simplistic. People are trying to - I think when the Sonia Kruger thing happened the other day - I mean, there are not many people I know of who agree with her position, and I very much understand your views about how this creates a whole sense of fear. Equally, when I watch Waleed Aly who this week has been compared to somebody who really ka make us feel safe and is talking sense, I will just read what he said about Sonia he said, "I could point out in terms of what she said that Japan has had its share of terror attacks and that Sonia is afraid as a woman in Australia, she has got a much higher chance of being murdered by a man she knows than a Muslim from another country. I could point out to do with with all the best of intentions backhand fuelling things and making things worse." Well, Waleed, you just did, I'm not a Pauline Hanson supporter, but I still think he is actually fuelling, even though he is saying, "I forgive Sonia Kruger." This is a very complex area and I think the people who support Pauline Hanson are tired of being told they don't understand. The same with Brexit, people who voted on that they don't understand, they've got it wrong. And Brexit was often spoken about simply in terms of xenophobia when it was obviously much more complicated than that?Totally. It is much more complicated than that, and it is a young-old thing.A big part of it is around identity and parts of speech and changing societies in terms of ethnic and racial mixes, but the other big part of the fear is about what's happening in economies, and the fact is that many people who are middle-class and working-class have seen their lives unfold in ways that they didn't expect and that their parents and grandparents didn't experience, so if you are in the Midlands of northern England or the mid west in the US and you relied on a manufacturing job to support a family and a home, that future isn't there for you anymore. And in Australia?Well, we've been lucky. We've managed things better and we've been lucky. A good series of macro economic reform over the past 20 years and a part of the world and a set of commodity endowments that mean we haven't had it as bad, but not impervious to those same dynamics o ever a long post-traumatic stress disorder, so we can't take it for granted but we need to be aware of the two things here, the issue around race and religion and identity and at the same time an economic location that makes people feel very unsafe, very insecure.If I could just on that note, although I agree with you and different communities that suffer from low socio-economic status, I don't think that should act as a justification for some of the out.
policies or hatred that is spewed out. Of Although Sonia came out and said we should stop Muslim migration and some people said it is fear and others say we should react by forgiveness, the core point of the discussion is that (a) she put forward an essentially fascist policy and (b) it was her platform that allowed hadder to say something like that, all though she might not have understood what she is talking about, she still did it and still talked about it the next day and had Twitter as the platform to do so. The discussion should be is
well, what are the responses? What is it that she continues to be able to say that and that there are no formidable responses, the responses was forgiveness as opposed to calling out what it was, which is bigot tri-.I completely agree. Fears about Donald Trump, by the Brexit campaign and we need to be cognisant of all of them.Another factor at play. The drama from the Republican Convention has overshadowed, another issue dogging the Trump camp. This is a claim of sexual harassment has resurfaced after 20 years. Jill Harth tried to sue Donald Trump for alleged unwanted sexual advances. She ultimately dropped the lawsuit. She says she hasn't given interviews until now, she says, in response to the Trump camp calling her a liar. His amount of things - his mansion, the opulence, I had never been around it or exposed to anything like this, and then after that he said, "OK, everybody, I will give you a tour of the mansion," and that's when he pulled me aside and the children's room and made another sexually aggressive advance on me where he trieded to make his move. He pushed me up against the wall and had his hands all over me and tried to get up my dress again, and I had a physical - did shall had to physically saying, "What are you doing? Stop it." It was a shocking thing for him to do this. The Harth interview comes as Fox News CEO Roger Ailes was forced to step down after a string of sexual harassment claims against him emerged. Amelia, obviously the two separate issues here. There are some similiarities given the fact that, well, they've consulted each other, I understand, over this period. It is two very powerful men, but if we just talk first about Fox News and Roger Ailes, do you think, as some are claiming, this is actually a tipping point? This is a younger generation saying, "We don't do businesslike this anymore. It was not acceptable." Or is it the fact that the younger Murdochs are fed up with the CEO and want to move on? Well, firstly we have to establish just how intertwined Roger Ailes and Fox News are, he created it 20 years ago, he created a forum for Conservatives in American where there wasn't one before and it became one of Rupert Murdoch's most lucrative properties, so the fact that Fox and Ailes has come to a public disagreement to the point where inflammatory headlines about the fact that Roger Ailes has to mind.
go, that's extraordinary to keep in mind. It means we have reached a tipping point because I think there is a greater awareness of just how pernicious sexual harassment is in the workplace. But, yeah, sure, also the Murdoch sons would like to wrest control of this very lucrative property from Roger Ailes, a man who has pushed them aside on many occasions before We know for a fact that James Murdoch doesn't at least necessarily share his father's political views to the extent that we can characterise Rupert Murdoch's political views as other than ruthlessly pragmatic, but it is also a recognition that this kind of behaviour can no longer be tolerated, even from powerful men.But what of Donald Trump?Well, the Donald Trump news, while shocking, is not surprising to anyone who has been following the way that Donald Trump talks about women and treats women What I thought was fascinating as a parallel between the Ailes allegations and Trump's allegations is that both of their right-hand, both of them females, interestingly enough, released emails sowing that the woman was friendly towards Roger Ailes and Rupert Murdoch and, as if to say, "If she had sent him a friendly email after this happened, how could he have possibly sexually harassed her?" And that is a staggering display of dynamics at work.For me, a reflection of the kind of environment they are building out there. For decades, sexual harassment cases against people, and the swimmer who was arrested and given such a light sentence a couple of months ago and the questions have to come out about how exactly American politics and shapes masculine identity. What is it that this is an ongoing problem that they seem to have? They seem to have problems with sexism, seem to have a problem with men being in power abusing females around them. Donald Trump has multiple accusations against them. Bill Cosby, so many women that came out and so on and so forth. So the question for me is to what extent it
should they start questioning what it actually means to be a man in America.Do you this I that is going to happen, David?That is a big ask. Sadly, sadly, Unfortunately.Sadly these stories are no longer surprising. I think - and the consistent kind of theme is unchecked power. When usually men get in situations where they either control or attract enough money that it's convenient to look the other way, that's what happens and...Right, but we are also - Ticky...I was going to say bear in mind, going back to political correctness, Fox stood up for a stand against political correctness. If we were all around here doing a Fox show, we would have a see-through desk, the three of us girls would be wearing short skirts and most of us would be younger than what we are now and all these girls joined Fox knowing that this is the culture of the organisation, again, complex society,Doesn't excuse that you don't get promoted if you don't sleep with me.It doesn't excuse it.This is what is interesting to me is that we are getting to the point with where a lot of women are saying this is normal.It is not normal.No, but they have experienced it to see consequences now at the upper echelon. TheI don't really care about at the upper levels, where sexual harassment is really bad and not enough is done about it, where you have women in very low-paid jobs, who cannot afford to lose that job and they are sexually harassed.I don't know why we are talking about various levels of sexual harassment.Of course you can, but I care less about it is what I'm saying, the real tragedy is when you have a woman who can't afford to move on, or create a scene, use social media, or has a reputation of their own to fight it.Why is it like that? Why do we have different levels of equality and different levels of acceptance of these things? The reason is that it is top-down, the environment, conditions, friends of the discussion has been from the top down. It is acceptable at lower levels because it is acceptable at higher levels. When we talk about Roger Ailes, Donald Trump, the men of power, the important is to hold them account, to set the standard of identity, the parameters from the top down, about setting the environment to stop these incidents at every level of society.David, you have been trying to get in there? .I think junior or senior levels of an organisation, sadly. One of the facts, is the perpetrator is more likely to be rebuked, disciplined at a junior level than they are at a senior level many It is just much easier when you Kapunda power which equates to resource of some kind, particularly in a family company or private company like that where he created this kind of goldmine that anyone would call him on it. 10 years ago he was so powerful he could have the suns moved aside. To what extent this is a power play wnt the Murdoch empire itself, and that's why I'm a bit dubious that the signals have shifted in the broader American debate.I wasn't suggesting that the Murdoch sons were on some of gender equality crusade.Where to now?But I it says a lot about the power dynamics there has it does about the broader place of sexual harass ment in the workplace.Finally tonight, despite the PM claiming there is overwhelming community support for a plebiscite on same-sex marriage, a new survey has found that less than half of us are on board with the idea. The Galaxy poll commissioned by gay advocacy group PFLAG asked 1,000 voters of their views. 48% backed the public vote, but when told Parliament could potentially override the result, support for a plebiscite fell to 33%. Only a quarter of respondents supported a plebiscite when told it would cost $160 million. Is this just a question of people being informed or is this a reaction to the debate over the last few months?Absolutely it is a question of being reformed. Because when we were told it would cost $160 million together, we go to the polls again and then we are told it won't be binding. Bill Shorten says there is a mandate, we should take it, and often surveys have shown that the Australian public is for marriage equality, so why have a plebiscite.Unless you had a degroo he in political science, you are entitle to have a view that you don't know the difference between a referendum and plebiscite. It is a complete waste of time and money.I agree. I think this is an intergenerational decision and we are shifting from the older generation's view generally and a time when people were a lot more involved certainly in Christianity than they are now, and it is a very major decision going from old to new, and I think we owe it and I would be happy to spend $200 million on it, we owe is to the generation from before to actually have this vote. We know what the vote is going to be, to suggest it will be anything other than agreeing with gay marriage is ridiculousSo why waste the money? Because for the reasons I have shift.
said, a major intergenerational shift.We've just had an election, why can't our leaders legislate the way they are meant to.Because the people who are in power have their own and it is a political thing I admit, but they go back to their electorates and that's not what they are hearing. The people who are in the ears of MPs, are people who have time to be in the ears of MPs, who are often retirees, don't forget. Thrmpblingts is an overwhelming case, from my point of view anyway, to actually go ahead, spend the money and have done with it. All of this ad time and talk time and everything else is costing money as it is. Why don't we just get on with it, spend the money and have the decision and move on. Tonight you have the last word. Ticky Fullerton, thank you so much. Thanks to the rest of our panel. David Hetherington, Mostafa Rachwani and Amelia Lester. We will be back again the same time tomorrow night. We look forward to seeing you then.

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Tonight - an alleged cover-up in the Anglican Church claims the Newcastle diocese ignored complaints about an extensive paedophile ring.There's evidence that he was aware of the offend egg that had been raised with him on more than one occasion.

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