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Stay with us. Onselen is coming up next.

Hello, I'm Peter Van Onselen. Welcome to the

Contrarians. The show where

we let you, the viewers,

decide which member of the

panel you don't want to hear

while before they come back from, at least for a little

and join us. That's right,

you get the chance through

email to vote one of these

panelist off and send them to

the sin bin.

Kevin Rudd, form er Prime

Minister Kevin Rudd, is act

ing rather prim min ster ual.

It is hard to get him a way

from the cam a at the moment,

whether it is turn ing up un

a nouns ed at sun rise or put

ing himself forward at

interviews or calling press conferences right in the middle of the memorial service in Christchurch, he

is everywhere as far as

cameras go at the moment and

it must be giving Julia

Gillard the you know what's.

The reality is is that

there's not much Gillard can

do about this, Kevin Rudd, former Prime Minister, holds

a Queensland electorate. If

he decided to walk away,

Labor may well be in a lot of

trouble trying to hold that seat, particularly obviously

at the moment while it is

trying to sell the carbon tax

and not doing a very good job

of it. On top of that, the

reality is that he has got a

platform at the moment, there

are so many international

issues that it's not unreasonable for Kevin Rudd

to be in front of the camera

a lot and update the public. But Julia Gillard needs to

work this out. She can't

slap him down, she has to get talking to Kevin Rudd behind

the scenes. I doubt very

much that the relationship

between Alexander downer and

John Howard was anywhere near

between Kevin Rudd and Julia as septic as the relationship

Gillard but the reality is

that the Foreign Minister is

a pretty important minister,

a former leader of the party, is an important individual, Julia Gillard has to find a

way to make Kevin Rudd allow

this to work because if it

doesn't work again the two of

them, they ain't going to get

reelected. That's my view.

On the far end of the panel,

we are joined by the

Australian newspapers, Chris,

and 'The Sunday Telegraph'.

Joining us out at Perth we

are also joined by

Steve. spokesperson for union's WA,

Good to be here. I'll come straight tow what.

Do you think about the

relationship between Rudd and

Gillard. Firstly in a

general sense and I guess

also in light of the amount

doing? of media he seems to be

I'm just relieved we don't

have a Prime Minister who

talks about the fair shake of the sauce bottle and all

those things. I came here

from New Zealand. The most

ridiculous comments, he put

me off from day one, you

know, I agree with everything you said about Julia Gillard,

she can't get rid of him, I

think they would be

slaughtered if he with than

election in the next year, I think he knows that. I

wouldn't put it past him to

step down in a weird kind of

way to cause the problem but

I can't see any other jobs

for him, so I agree with everything you said. I think

she's an improvement on him

but only because she seems to

be a nicer person.

What is his game, do you

think? Is Kevin Rudd doing

this to annoy Gillard? Is he

doing it to reclaim the Prime

Ministership somehow by

showing he is more popular as

news poll showed as well as

another poll during the week

or is he doing this to set

himself up for an overseas

job by doing such a great job

as foreign minister?

I think there's an element

of Kevin Rudd that is genuinely engaged with

ishise. I think he does care

about what happens in Libya

and Japan. I think all of those things you mention the

are true. I don't think it

bothers him at all to annoy

Julia Gillard or anyone he

can. What amuses me about

Rudd is how exhausted he is

by it all. He is on air at 6

a.m., you know, looking very

wary at having been up all

night by worrying about the

nuclear reactor and still is

on air at 11 o'clock at

night. But it is having its desired affect in a whole lot

of ways. He is probably achieving a bit on an international level and I

Gillard. think he is annoying Julia

What is he aachieving, I

can't think of anything? He's achieving a little bit

of attention for the causes

that he believes in. I think

he was advocating a no-fly

zone in Libya two weeks ago,

I'm not suggesting he made it

happen, but he was advocating


To our viewers out there,

don't fofer get you get the

opportunity to vote one of

the panelists off. We will remove them for the second

segment. You can vote by the email address which is

appearing below the screen as

I'm spaer. -- speaking. Let

me drink Steve in from WA.

For a start you're in an

interesting position. You

work for unions WA but by the same token Western Australia

is a pretty liberal State at

the moment. It has got 13 of

15 seats held by the

coalition, what is the

vibover there that you are

picking up in relation to,

firstly, how the Labor Party

is travrmg and I guess

secondly the carbon tax?

I think certainly you're

conservative State of right, WA holds the most

Australia. They are enjoying

a hey day at the moment in federal politics but I think

my reading on the carbon tax

is that people are really

keen to get the debate

started. It's been very

personality driven. So far

we have all basically heard

whether or not Julia Gillard

has back flipped, lied, the

whole she bang but I think

people now want to see the debate on carbon actually addressed about what a carbon

tax is going to do, what it

is going to do to the

economy, what is is going to

do to the household bills.

Also, what is the coalition's policy, what is going to be better for the Australian people. You have been remarkably

silent. What do you think of what Steve says?

I've been sitting back here because I've been worried

I've had to jump in and

depend Kevin Rudd for the first time in my life

snoochlt that will see you go

straight into the sin bin.

I think from the first discussion here about Kevin

Rudd, he is a guy who is

doing his job and he is doing

his job that woe argue very,

very well and I think any fair observer would have to

say he's had a pretty good

week. He's a guy who was out

in front on the Libyan no-fly

zone. Sure - Sydney is the

same guy that said that Gaddafi wouldn't survive.

He may well be right and I

think the great pity about

the no-fly zone in Libya is

that it didn't happen

earlier. Kevin Rudd won't

have - can't claim credit for

forcing the no-fly zone.

There are much bigger powers

at play here but he did the

right thing in pushing for it

and he has got every right to

claim credit. Sure, he has

been out there doing a lot of

media. We have had the Japanese issue this week,

there have been big foreign

policy issues at play, a lot of Australians involved in

the Japanese tragedy. So

Kevin Rudd has had every

right to be out there. And I

think it is very difficult

for people to criticise him.

It's actually made worse for Julia Gillard because, of

course, we all know that

foreign policy is her weak

suit. These are areas that

she does not feel comfortable

speaking about in interviews

in detail. So Kevin Rudd -

She is getting better isn't

she, she is better than she

was when she first became Prime Minister.

I think she still struggles

a bit on for enpolicy and

Rudd has been out there

making hey on T sure, he has

done a lot of media. I was

thinking during the week he

might be better off, he is

doing so many interviews

around so many TV stations,

he should do what Charlie

Sheen does and broadcast live to the world.

What about when she cries

about a man walking on the

moon. Who can believe that,

seriously! Cringe making.

There was an element of

cringe worthiness about it

but I've been getting a handle on meeting international states men.

The reality is Howard copped

the same criticism early on

in his Prime Ministership.

But the reality about how it

is, he was being criticised

early on for being too

domestically focussed but he

became an international

States person. Let's give

people time what. Do you

think about this? In

fairness it's her own fault,

she hasn't had a honeymoon

period because she knifed a Prime Minister before

election, do you think she

should be given a better chance?

We all know you have got to

have deep sympathise to the

Labor Party as our twitters

bring up every week. I think

it is important to give her a

break and these are international issues that

have been coming thick and

fast for, you know, almost seems like months on end now.

So I think this idea that she

should be completely over all - it is her job She is Prime Minister of the

country. You don't learn on

the job.

That's true, but -

It's not an apprenticeship.

You are supposed to be the Prime Minister of the country.

The fact of the matter is I

think she is doing a fine

job. I don't know whether

you expect her to be over in

Japan rebuilding buildings or

over in Christchurch. The

Australian government has not

stopped, you know, helping

out in these particular

issues and I think Gillard is

doing a fine job.

Fine job. You must be part

of the 30%. The lowest

primary vote record indeed Labor history.

I think these guys are

crying too is pretty unfair.

Did she really cry or did she

show human emotion at a time that was significant to her.

What is wrong with that?

That's bogus.

How do you know?

It is all worked up about

somebody walking on the moon.

It was pretty inspiring.

Nobody else has done it

It was so fake.

On the panel, saying that

you can't get inspired by

walking on the moon. Fair

go, Julia Gillard may have

been in the socialist -

That was back in 1969, you

might have got inspired in

1970, I don't know that you

get inspired in 2011.

She was speaking to everyone

in the congress there.

Pretty inspiring moment.

I think the reason she got

emotional in that speech was

the other content in the

speech about the links

between the two countries,

the firemen swapping the hell

mets over 9/11 and all of

that, and towards the end of

the speech she got emotional.

But I agree with Clare, I

wouldn't critjise Julia

Gillard because her voice

broke a little at the end of the speech.

I'm the last one to

criticise about voice

breaking because it happens

to me all the time.

Perhaps getting tiered up, by heading to the sin bin.

Don't forget you have got the

opportunity to vote on this

show, to put one of us rkses

not me actually, I'm not

allowed to go into the sin

bin, even though I get more

votes than anyone else on the

bloody panel, if you don't

want to hear from anyone.

Let's move on to Japan that

has consumed the media's

attention by the devastating

events there. But the focal

point is the nuclear fallout,

the realities of the

difficulties there. I really

want to come to the panel to

get nuclear issue thoughts about whether this is

sometimed the likelihood of people turn to go nuclear

power down the track, whether it should or shouldn't as well. Quickly first, and

then we will go to a break an

discuss it in some more


It might. On the should, it

shouldn't. I mean, if you

look at actual deaths I think

6 nuclear power, they are

tiny. They are tiny. Even

the one in the US, three mile

island, we are talking

handfuls of deaths.

None are minor.

Maybe 60 or 70 and I know

you get this sort of

emotional, what a terrible

way to die, I think we all feel that.

Radiation you mean

If you are someone that

believes the world is going

to die with carbon emissions,

you should be on board with

nuclear power. You are just

a hypocrite if you are not on

board with nuclear power. I

just think you're a hypocrite

if you're not in favour of nuclear power.

I've been long in favour of nuclear power. I think,

though, the relate is as Jim

says that this is going to

hold back the debate, even

though probably more people

have had wind turbines fall

on them than people will die from this nuclear fallout. We will see.

Certainly the first worker

in Japan was a crane worker.

I think the really telling

example is that BHP and ERA

are two companies that are exporting uranium, are both

refuse to go say whether

their uranium has gone to

these nuc power plants in

Japan. But Australia's own uranium industry is clearly

so worried about it that they

won't confirm it. I think

sadly that will set back a big part of the debate but I

do think there are a lot of people in Australia who

weren't quite aware, until

now, that once you start a

nuclear power plant, you

can't turn it off.

Hold that thought.

This can't happen to, they are dealing with all the


Hold that thought. You may

or may not get a chance to

continue it in the next

segment. Last chance to vote

one of the panelists off. Do

so now. You are watching the

kraerps. We will see you shortly.

Welcome back, you're watching the Contrarians. In

a moment, your votes will get

rid of one have the panelist,

but first, today's headlines.

The UN Security Council has

authorised air and sea

strikes in Libya to stop

Colonel Gaddafi's offensive

against Rebel forces.

Council members authorised

all necessary measures to protect civilians. Ten

countries voted in favour of

the no-fly zone with five abstentions, including Russia

and China. The resolution

came just hours after Gaddafi

veiled to launch a final

assault and crush the weak

souled Rebellion against him.

Australians in Japan are

being urged to leave the

country amid growing fears of nuclear radiation. The

Gillard government says it

will charter extra flights to

evacuate citizens if needed

in the coming days. 11

Australians are still unaccounted for. Separate

efforts are continuing to

prevent further radiation

leaks at the stricken

Fukushima power plant. Crews

are working to restore

electricity to the nuclear

site in the hope of

restarting pump tosses pool

water on overheating fuel rods. sfsh

The latest riots on

Christmas Island have

heightened anxiety among

local residents who have been

told to lock their homes and

cars. Australian Federal Police have taken control of

the detention centre after a

violent rampage saw part of

the facility burnt to the

ground. AFP officers had to

use tear gas to stop the

violence instigated by a

group of 250 assylum seekers.

118 AFP officers remain on

the island with more on the

way to assist.

Prince William has told the

people of New Zealand that

their courage and

determination in the face of

adversity has been an

inspiration to the world. The prince was among thousands of New Zealanders

who remembered the victims of

the Christchurch earthquake

at a moving memorial service

today. The ceremony began

with the sounding of a conch

shell followed by two minutes

silence at 12.51, the exact

time the earthquake hit.

A Victorian court has been

told the man who threw his four-year-old daughter off Melbourne's west gate bridge

did so out of revenge.

Psychiatrist Yvonne skinner

says Arthur freeman was

acting out of spousal revenge

when he threw his daughter to

her death in January 2009. Freeman has pleaded not

guilty to murder. The trial


In sport, the Bulldogs have sacked Ryan Tandy following

his alleged involvement in

the NRL betting scandal. He

faced court earlier this

month charged with lying to

the New South Wales crime commission. The charges

relate to a number of bets

placed on the first scoring

option in last year's NRL

clash between the cowboys and

Bulldogs. Looking at Saturday's weather -

welcome back, you're watching the Contrarians.

Another close vote. We had

plenty of people that had a

problem with your accent,

Jim, one that had a problem

with your tie. Clare, you

only had one vote against you

so you were pretty popular today. Steve, a couple of

people said that you were a

union thug simply balls you

were a spokesperson for the

unions. But you didn't get

voted off. It was Chris, I'm

afraid, you have been told to

walk, so we will let you go

over to the sin bin and think

about what you did wrong

I defended Kevin Rudd and

Julia Gillard. I won't do that again.

We will see you in the third

segment. Jim, let me ask

you. Ros did his speech

during the week about climate

change and the carbon tax in particular at the national press club what. Did you

make of it, I guess, and will

it influence the debate, I suppose?

Sham I put on an Australian

accent to appease the crowd.

You are safe now, there is

no more voting off.

So this is the profsar

gardener who is the retired

economist they bring out of

retirement. Look, he is

probably a better politician

than the Labor Party because

he thinks let's start a class

war fair. We will give taxes

to the people at the bottom

of the happy. They have got

to do something to get this

tax. People aren't lobbying

for this. I'm the sort of person when I look at this

and I think "Okay, if we do

this, what are we getting.

We are getting .000 something

off carbon diockside". It

does nothing. It is more

bumper stickering - it is not

going to change the world al. The idea that the Americans

and the chibeees are going to

look at Australians and say

"Oh my gotd, they have got

some sort of carbon tax,

maybe we should have one

too". Nuclear power might do

something, so I think there's

a huge uphill struggle. He

might be on to something, he

might not, by offering lower

taxes and making Abbott vote

against him. It tells us nothing about the

desirability of one of these

carbon taxes. It is going to

do nothing. No-one is going

to copy us. You are going to

offshore jobs and by the way,

all of the decrease in

Europe, their carbon tax

decrease, it correlates with

imports from chine. Nothing.

He has been getting too many

text message frses people,

wondering how he is going on

the show. Jim is clearly a

climate change sceptic?

No, this tax is going to do

nothing for the world.

What about the idea you have to start somewhere. For

example, one State in the US,

if one stayed in the United

States decideed to get rid of

slavery, it would be very

easy for the other 49 States

to say you know, what what

difference does it make?

It's a stupid analogy with slavery. Okay. Move to nuclear power.

Let me bring you in on this

Steve. A lot of that was

directed at you. How do you

feel about the carbon tax?

You want to try to give it

some sort of defence. I'm

not going to do it.

If I'm going to follow my

own stereotype, of course if

Jim doesn't agree with me,

I'm happy to meet him in the

car park. But I would argue

that - it's fine for people to talk about nuclear power

but the fact of the matter is

that nuclear power, as it

stands in the current model,

is incredibly expensive and

the only way that you

actually make it some sort of economical viable is through

a carbon tax is by putting a

price on carbon and then

allowing the market to

determine whether they see

nuclear power as a more effective and alternative

method. If you don't do

that, what you are going to

see is governments need to

spend hundreds of millions of

dollars trying to prop up an

industry which, at the

moment, is far too costly to

bring in any real substitute.

Forget whether you believe whether it makes any difference or you believe the science or not. What about

the irony that you have got a Labor Party arguing for a mechanism and you have got a

party opposing that. That is

unusual on both sides. That's not a market mechanism.

It's a tax before it becomes

an ETS

So you believe it Assuming that it does become

an ETS, that's what it said it becomes, I don't know.

That was originally the plan

too. Every time the carbon production reduction scheme has been proposed in

Australia, it has always been

a fixed price to start at so

it is always going to be a

carbon tax for a little

while. But we have to look at this as a political situation now. Julia

Gillard, to form government,

had to promise to bring in a

carbon tax. She wasn't quite

able to do it. Ros garno who

has managed to do what no-one

else has in the past.

Chris still texting people.

It is very successfully

wedged Tony Abbott. He has

nowhere to go except for

turning around to argue. He

may well find himself left

arguing that low paid

Australians shouldn't get a

tax cut.

But this the constant argument. I think there's a

big difference to the GST on

this. Howard when he

announced he his whole tax

plan to go with it, he sent

it off to an inquiry and then

got the details there. Were

more details announced when

Gillard announced this than

the media have led on, in

fairness to Gillard, but the reality is they were still pretty scant on the ground

with dams. Jim, I'm sure you

would agree, at the end I

don't see how you win the

public over with a tax and

ETS does allow the mechanism

argument, it does allow a

suggestion that we would be

part of an international

trading skem but now we look

like we are putting a tax on

a small country with a low

amount of global emissions

and who cares.

But we ferget about ourselves, who cares.

We are going to have to take a break. I'm going to cut

you off again. When we come back, we will be joined by

krips. We will try to keep

him out of the conversation

as long as possible. You're

watching the Contrarians. Back in a moment.

Welcome back. You're watching the Contrarians

where I'm joined on the panel

by closest to me professor

Jim Allen, Clare Harvey from

'The Sunday Telegraph', back

from the sin bin Chris Kenny

from the Australian newspaper

and out of Perth,

spokesperson for unions WaA,

the thug, Chris. Thanks for

your company as well. My

producer tells me I have to

give you a right of reply.

But I'm not going to do that.

What do you think about

Christmas Island? What do

you think about Christmas

Island? Big issue today.

Chris bow enhad a very

extended press conference

about it. Give us your take.

I think what's happening

there is an absolute

disgrace. Nobody could be

happy about this. The

Federal Government stands

condemned for the way it has

softened our boarder

protection laws and allowed

this unflux of boat people to

recommence from starting in

2008. So now we have

Christmas Island full to

overflowing, we have detention centres being bit

all around the country. No

sign of any significant

reform or change to the laws being undertaken by the Gillard government. All they

are doing is talk being this

nonsense of the East Timor

solution and the problem is

just getting worse and worse.

There is never any excuse for

anybody to engage in violence

or destruction of property up

there and the people who have

been doing that at Christmas

Island need to be dealt with

severely. But this problem,

this policy area, is an

absolute disaster. It was fixed under the previous

government. This government

decided to unpick the laws,

to soften the laws and look

at the mess we are in.

People are suffering.

Australian Federal Police are putting their own bodies and

livers at risk. They need to

fix this.

Do you agree that analysis from Chris?

Look, I thought it certainly

ticked all the boxes of scare

mongering and demonisation of

people who are

Scare mongering, have you

seen what's happening up


Absolutely. Are you trying

to make the most out of it

politically? Yes, you are.

I'm saying we need a

government this this one to

fix this problem. People in

this country are hurt, people

are worried about it and the

Gillard government have not

fixed it. It is very simple.

I don't think it is as

simple to fix at all. This

idea that you sort of just

close your doors, turn your

back on an international

treaty and sort of turn your

back on the most sort of down

trodden people on the planet

is outrageous and I think

this idea that we are trying

to turn the northern camp in western Australia into some

sort of vote winner for the

Liberal Party is equally

condemnable. I think the

fact is that, yes, it is a

difficult issue. Yes, with

the situation around the

world there are more and more

displaced people seeking

refuge. This country has a responsibility to those

people. Yes, there will be

difficulties in getting that ish

Working and making sure we

get the most hum-Anne response possible. You're joking.

I don't think you're going

to get an answer. I think

there's a law and order

problem at the detention

centre on Christmas Island.

I think there's a problem

with too many boats arriving

and too many people coming

into the country for a number

of different reasons, some of

them policy related, some of

them related to international factors. Unfortunately,

violence at Christmas Island

doesn't improve analysis

understanding of the issue. Personally, I think we should

have a duty to be compassionate totality people

who we have agreed to take

under the convention to

accept ref fooes.

Let me jump in. David has

contacted us on the email and

said if they protest about

being here, they don't

deserve to be here. Put the

protestors on the first plane home. That is exactly the problem and that will be the

response. This is what

happens when you have got

people on a de - in a detention centre feeling sfrat.

Over crowd indeed fairness

to what Chris says is one of

the issues.

That is the problem. We

have a policy problem in this

country. All sides of

politics say that it's a

problem yet we don't have a Federal Government who seems to be putting forward any

sort of a plan to try and fix it.

Is this as big an issue as people make out? That is the only thing I ask.

I see it almost in terms of you either believe people

respond to incentive so you don't, and if you don't think

that the change made by the

Labor Party changed the

incentives for people to come here, then you have to explain what's happened in

the last two and a half,

three years. Clearly people

respond to incentives and in

a way being a bit hard

hearted at the beginning

could be more compassionate

in the long run.

Do you think we should turn

the boats around?

Well, maybe.

But what does that even


What happens if they sink?

Home boats actually do that.

That's why I'm asking.

Under the Howard government,

some boats were turned

around, very few but very

rare. It is not a solution

to say you have got to turn

the boats around. Jim is on

to the point here. What you

have to do is reduce the incentive.

A lot of people I talk to in

the coalition, they make the

point privately that the

horse has bolted on this one.

You know, you can't sort of

bring it back now. Now, if

that's true, firstly, do you

think that's true? Secondly,

if it is true, then we have

got a position now where you

say okay, bad game Labor,

you've mucked this up, but at

the same time, there's no

kind of policy reversal and

it is also pure rhetoric that

you are going to turn the boats around.

Isn't the innocent if I have

that we are a large, stable

democracy in a difficult,

unstable, undemocratic part

of the world?

The question isn't whether

we take people, it is whether

we take them illegally.

That's not illegal.

What are you suggesting?

Anyone who gets here is in?

Either we we need to go

through the proper processes

of assessing peoples refugee


Different countries have different acceptance rates.

Where you apply can affect whether you are accepted.

You quietly work on Claire's

naivety. Let me bring Steve

in. You have looked ex-as

perrated a couple of times.

What do you make of this?

I find it interesting when

people are accusing me of

arguing with jargon and then

their great answer is

"Maybe". Look, the fact of

the matter is - Don't you understand "maybe", that is not jarran.

It is sitting on the fence

and I think the fact of the

matter is we need clear

policy, and we need a

decision that's made. The

fact of the matter is -

Exactly. That is exactly

what weer saying

We need a clear policy. We

need a government to tackle

this issue and try and fix it.

That's right. Look, yeah,

look, we are - let's look at

it another way. The issue of

processing four, five, seven

skilled work(e). We see the

problem there was the length

of time for processing those

visa workers to bring in

skilled workers into the

country. The government has

realised that problem and has

fixed it. It's the same thing as Claire was saying

that it's the issue with the

processing, we clearly need

to work on the way that we

are processing these people,

that we are making sure that

they are profers indeed a way

and that they are treated

humanly and that the system

is more streamline. So we

don't get this sort of overcrowded natured. But the

fact of the matter is that we

are not going to stop boats

leaving aechg.

Let me jump in - -- Afghanistan -

It is land marked.

I think we know what he

meant. Let me just ask you a question for the panel, you

know, figures of you to jump

in go for it. What do do you

from here? It's easy to

bitch and moan that Labor

stuffed it up. It's easy to

say you are going to turn

around the boats but we all know that is garbage as well.

What do you actually do to

send the message to stop this so-called tsunami of avrts.

I think it is one a day.

It kills me to say it but I

think we have to reopen the

processing centre.

I think that is an obvious

first step and the reason

that works is that it creates

some sort of uncertainty for people as to whether they

will get what they want,

which is Australian


But inevitably everyone in

Naru or large numbers of them

ended up coming here. The

key was the deter event. That is gone because of the

change of policy. How do you get it back?

That's why as you say it

might be more difficult now

to reinstitute these tough

measures and to make them

work now that they have been

unpicked but you have got to

try and starting with Naru is

at least a start and I think the government needs to look

at some sort of visa category

too. Because the incentive

is -

You mean temporary

protection visas.

Within three months you will become an Australian citizen.

If it is too easy, it is too

much of an incentive. You have to be tough.

I agree with that.

Everyone then, what about

this is one of the only ways

that you can get the genie

back in the bottle by sending

the deterrent message by

changing the government and

giving the impression that

this is a more hard lined government?

No, I don't think so. I

think, though, there is

awareness of what's going on

in Australian domestic level.

I think there's always been

an awareness of our rate of

acceptance of approval of refugees.

Last say.

You mean we're not going to

talk about the New South

Wales election. I want to hear Steve's call.

What we ought to do is -

We are not going to get to

that. But I'm giving awe I

chance for your last say on

assylum seekers.

Part of the trick, I think,

with the Howard government is

that they appeared tougher

than they were and they weren't really as tough as

everyone made out. You

wouldn't get that from the

ABC or the Fairfax press.

But if you give that

impression, you can be a deter enls.

We have ended with a swipe

at the ABC. We will leave it

at that. Thanks for your

time and also here Chris,

Clare and close tovet me,

professor Jim Allen. Make

sure you tune in on Sunday

for Australian Agenda where we will be interviewing Prime

Minister Julia Gillard in the

studio. It should be a good

one. See you then.

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