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This Program Is Captioned Live.

Tonight, dozens missing after a mine disaster in foouz.

There's been a gas explosion and they are trying to make the mine safe so they can get in there and
start looking for the miners that are in there but we haven't given up hope at all. We haven't
given up hope but it's a serious

Good evening. Welcome to Lateline. I'm Scott Bevan. The Federal Government has been criticised for
drifting, pandering to the Greens and as a result running the risk of losing the next election.
Those tough words have come not from the Coalition but powerful union leader Joe De Bruyn who's
against the idea that MPs should consult with voters over the issue of gay marriage. To consider
these arguments we'll do our own consulting with two Federal Federal MPs. The climate change
parliamentary Attorney-General Senator George Brandis. First our other headlines. The funders of
Wikileaks denies he's committed sexual sexual assaults against women. And explosive revelations,
the trial of a suspected Russian arms dealer

Dozens of NZ miners crossing after blast.

Twenty-seven miners are unaccounted for after a blast at the Pike River mine near Greymouth on New
Zealand's South Island.


SCOTT BEVAN, PRESENTER: Up to 27 workers are unaccounted for after an explosion in a coal mine on
New Zealand's South Island this afternoon.

Tonight, a rescue operation is underway at the Pike River mine near the town of Greymouth.

It's reported five workers have emerged from the site but it's not known whether the others are
still alive.

This report from the ABC's New Zealand correspondent, Dominque Schwartz.

DOMINIQUE SCHWARTZ, REPORTER: This is the damage on the surface of the Pike River coalmine
north-east of Greymouth. Scorched and smoking earth and twisted metal. At the moment, the damage
underground can only be guessed at. The mine is still not safe enough for rescuers to enter.

TONY KOKSHOORN, MAYOR OF GREYMOUTH: The mine's rescue crews are working frantically at the moment.
They're up there, they are doing everything they can. It's a waiting game. They're making sure that
the mine is safe to go down but at the moment there are 27 unaccounted for.

DOMINIQUE SCHARTZ: The mining company says a gas explosion cut power and communications this

Inside the mine, a loader driver was blown off his machine. He and another man walked out.

PETER WHITTALL, PIKE RIVER COAL CHIEF EXECUTIVE: The two men who came out of the mine site are
being treated for injuries but they both walked out under their own steam and the nature of the
injuries to other employees I can't determine at this stage.

DOMINIQUE SCHARTZ: Relatives of those unaccounted for are being directed to a waiting centre set up
near the mine but the region's mayor says no-one has given up hope.

TONY KOKSHOORN: Look we just saw in Chile, all those miners, every single one of them they got out
of the mine. So I'm hanging on to that at the moment.

DOMINIQUE SCHARTZ: The mine has only recently made its second export shipment of coking coal to
India. Operations had been delayed by machinery failures and a rockfall.

But Pike River Coal says safety is its top priority and it will do whatever is needed to bring its
workers to the surface alive.

Dominque Schwartz, Lateline.

Rescue operation in early stages.

Matthew Peddie discusses the latest from the Pike River mine.


SCOTT BEVAN: For the latest on what's happening at the Pike River Mine I'm joined by Matthew Peddie
from Radio New Zealand.

Matthew, where exactly are you now and what's happening?

MATTHEW PEDDIE, RADIO NEW ZEALAND: Well Scott I'm actually at the entrance road to the mine, it's
the Logben Road. It's about 12km from the tiny township of Ikamatua, about 50km inland and
north-east, as you said, from Greymouth.

There's a police cordon set up here. There's not a lot of activity going on at the moment. All
there is sort of the blue and red flashing lights of the police vehicles.

About 11:30pm, a couple of cars drove through the cordon to join their fellow rescue workers on the
other side of the cordon, a couple of police vehicles, a search-and-rescue car and the energy and
resources minister, Gerry Brownlee, has also made his way to the mine to join Tony Kokshoorn the
mayor of the Grey district who has been there since the late afternoon.

But from what I understand, the rescue workers, including those teams of specialist mine rescue
personnel are waiting for an opportunity to go and see if they can go and help those stranded
miners and the contractors who, I gather, are some ways underground.

SCOTT BEVAN: So is it still at planning stage at this stage or is the actual operation underway?

MATTHEW PEDDIE: My understanding is that they have to wait until they get the all-clear that the
air quality inside the mine is OK for them to go in. There are concerns about the quality of the
air, the poisonous gas that might be in the mine, they basically have to wait until they can get in
there and see.

There has been a little bit of helicopter activity. I can hear occasionally a few helicopters
buzzing over the hills and the mine, from here, probably is a couple of kilometres away, sort of in
the bush-clad hills further back. But I have heard some helicopter activity. There are some, I
think, three helicopters from various parts of the South Island which converged on the mine.

So there is some activity going on but there's been no official word as to whether the rescue has
actually started yet.

SCOTT BEVAN: And Matthew it's the only a few weeks since the world watched the Chile mine rescue
operation. How much is that event investing a sense of hope in the workforce there and indeed in
the wider community?

MATTHEW PEDDIE: Well it's quite early into the operation yet, but as you would have heard from the
mayor of the Grey district, Tony Kokshoorn, he said that obviously the world saw that rescue
operation, they can sort of gather some hope from that.

Of course the people on the west coast are used to dealing with hardship and difficult conditions.
Mining's been an activity on the west coast for a long time. So they're well aware of the dangers
involved but there is of course the locals, the families, who have loved ones unaccounted for yet,
haven't given up hope by any means.

SCOTT BEVAN: Matthew Peddy from Radio New Zealand, thanks so much for your time.

Asylum seekers sew mouths shut

up hope by any means. Matthew

Peddy from Radio New Zealand, thank you. Asylum seekers have sewn their lips together in a new act
of protest on Christmas Island. The Immigration Minister says the group of Middle Eastern men are
refusing medical treatment but he their actions won't affect Government policy. With the Prime
Minister out of the country, a number of issues are proving problematic for the Government
including fresh concerns about the gay marriage debate. Hayden Cooper reports from Canberra. A
decade ago it was an all too common form of protest. Now, as detention facilities hover at breaking
point, it's back.

I can confirm that in recent hours up to 10 individuals have harmed themselves by sewing
stitchinise stitchinise to their

so-called peaceful protest involves up to 160 detainees on Christmas Island but one small group is
taking it further.

I can confirm that medical assistance has been offered to those 10 people. They have declined
medical assistance.

Elsewhere on the island, locals have noticed the rise in tenth at the north-west point facility
since this week's suicide of an Iraqi man in Villawood in Sydney.

Following the passing of the man in Villawood earlier that some of the detainees at Christmas
Island performed a ceremony of prayer, a vigil ceremony of prayer, a vigil for the deceased person
and then set up a protest, a peaceful protest on the oval in the centre of the detention centre.

When did that begin

? Three days ago.

What were nay doing on the oval?

Just sleeping out. They refused to go back to their rooms. They determined determined to occupy the
oval and maintain a peaceful protest just by their presence.

The Minister's warning that there will be no will be no policy response.

Obviously, let me repeat that any protest which is designed to change the result of refugee
applications will not work.

With the Prime Minister abroad, it's not the only policy trouble spot awaiting her return. Labor
party divisions over gay marriage are bubbling to the surface.

Well, the Government is Greens to get too much oxygen on those issues.


on those issues.

Right wing union power broker Joe De Bruyn is taking the Prime Minister to task for backing this
week's motion on gay marriage and giving too much ground to the left.

That was a mistake because it means that the issue of gay marriage is going to continue to bubble
along in definitely into the future and this is not really in the Government's interests because to
the outside person, ordinary person in the street, it means that the Greens' agenda is dominating
parliament rather than the Government's own interests.

And he there could be trouble ahead.

They are drifting at the moment. They are not seen to be fully in charge the way they ought ought
to be and so I think there is a concern that the Government should control the agenda a bit better.

That's not the case. Labor Party policy is determined by Labor Party processes. The Labor Party
will work through those issues, as we always do in relation to Labor Party processes and informed,
importantly, by Labor values.

Values that some fear are being ignored. Other unions are dismayed by a Government backdown on
supporting an equal wage claim for women in the services sector.

A bit disappointed they haven't quite figured out that equal pay is going to mean women are going
to get more money and somebody is going to have to pay for for it.

The Government had promised to back the wage push but now due to the Budget impact the support
isn't quite so strong.

Pay equity for women is an important issue. All we're saying in what we've put forward to fair work
Australia is we're setting out what we thing fair work Australia needs to take into account when
considering the case.

With a woman Prime Minister, we would hope we would see equality of pay and fair pay as a higher
priority than a Budget surplus down the track.

The prime Ministerial

Gretch won't face Ozcar charges.

Public servant Godwin Gretch will not face charges over the Ozcar scandal, despite there being
evidence to prosecute.


SCOTT BEVAN, PRESENTER: He was the public servant at the centre of the Ozcar political affair.

And nearly 18 months on, former treasury official, Godwin Grech, has learnt he won't face criminal

Mr Grech concocted an email which he claimed had come from the Government had purported to seek
favourable treatment for a Brisbane car dealer.

The Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions says there is evidence to prosecute Godwin Grech
for unauthorised leaks.

But, after considering Mr Grech's health, he decided a prosecution wasn't warranted.

The Week In Review

Parliamentary Secretary Mark Dreyfus and Senator George Brandis discuss gay marriage, the Greens
and the NBN.


SCOTT BEVAN, PRESENTER: Well to discuss some of the big issues in Canberra this week, we're joined
now by the Climate Change Parliamentary Secretary, Mark Dreyfus, he's in our Melbourne studio. And
from Brisbane we're joined by the Shadow Attorney-General, Senator George Brandis.

Gentlemen, welcome to Lateline.



SCOTT BEVAN: First on the issue of gay marriage and the consulting of voters on the issue.

Now the national Senator Ron Boswell has said Labor MPs should walk into the front bar of a working
class hotel and discuss it there and see what sort of reception they'd get.

Mark Dreyfus, you're a fan of the St Kilda football club and I'm sure there's many supporters' bars
you can wander into. What bar will you be wandering into and what sort of reaction do you imagine
you'd get to this issue?

MARK DREYFUS: Scott, I'll be doing what I do every day that I'm in my electorate, which is talking
to the people of my electorate. And I expect I'll get a range of views because that's what this
topic elicits from people across Australia.

SCOTT BEVAN: But do you think there will be a predominant view given that the majority, at least
the polls suggest, the majority of Australians have no problem with this, they're in favour of gay

MARK DREYFUS: Yeah I've seen the polls, Scott, and I think that it is, however, a difficult issue.
It's one which people hold pretty strong views.

Certainly my position on this - I don't think anyone could be in any doubt about. I've spent my
whole working life working on issues of fairness and removal of discrimination. In particular in
the last parliament, I assisted with and argued for and spoke on removal of discrimination against
GLBT people across the country.

In more than 80 pieces of legislation we removed discrimination.

But equally...

SCOTT BEVAN: So you're in favour of gay marriage?

MARK DREYFUS: Equally, as I've said, I don't think anyone could be in any doubt about my views and
the strength of view I have about fairness and removal of discrimination.

But equally, Scott, I'm part of a team and my team, the Australian Labor Party, at its national
conference, which I know probably about as much about as anyone since I was the chair of the
National Policy Committee, presiding over the conference last year in that role.

At that conference we reached a very firm position and until we have the next conference and we
know that that next conference now, it's just been announced this week, is going to be in the first
week of December next year.

Until then we've got a clear position in our policy.

SCOTT BEVAN: George Brandis in Queensland, what bar will you be going to and when your constituents
or when voters ask you where you stand, how will you answer?

GEORGE BRANDIS: Well, Scott, I think it's important to put this issue into context.

This is, in the Coalition's view, very far from being the most important issue on the national
agenda. At a time when interest rates are rising, when there are cost of living pressures to which
this Government is contributing, when the Government is about to introduce the carbon tax that
Julia Gillard promised, hand on heart, would not be introduced during the course of the election
campaign in order to get past the election. Then I think there are other issues that really ought
to be commanding the national agenda.

The reason the issue of gay marriage is commanding the national agenda at the moment is because the
Labor Party has formed an alliance with the Greens. The Greens have been very forceful advocates of
this issue for many years and now the Labor Party is in hock to them.

SCOTT BEVAN: And we'll come to that in just a moment, but where do you stand on gay marriage? Are
you in favour of it?

GEORGE BRANDIS: The Coalition's position is very clear. We believe, and in fact, during the last
period of Coalition Government amended the Marriage Act to make it perfectly clear that a marriage
is between a man and a woman.

Now having said that...

SCOTT BEVAN: Where do you stand on it Senator, what's your position?

GEORGE BRANDIS: I support the Coalition's position.

SCOTT BEVAN: So you believe a marriage is between a man and a woman?


SCOTT BEVAN: OK, you're against the same-sex marriage?

GEORGE BRANDIS: Well we had, as a matter of fact, we had a discussion about this matter in the
Coalition party room as recently as Tuesday and the Coalition's position is unanimous on this.
There was not a dissenting voice and there are two elements.

First of all, we believe all forms of discrimination against gay people should be removed from the
statute book. I think in this day and age no decent human being would think that somebody should be
discriminated against because of their sexuality.

But having said that, we don't think it's a form of discrimination to recognise that historically,
culturally and for most people in this country still, religiously, marriage is an institution
uniquely between a man and a woman.

SCOTT BEVAN: Now just there a moment ago the Senator raised this so-called distraction that's going
on, Mark Dreyfus, with your party and today, as we saw in a report earlier, Joe De Bruyn has come
out and said he feels the Government is "drifting" and that the ALP is pandering to the Greens and
that this whole gay marriage issue is an example of that. Is he right?

MARK DREYFUS: Joe De Bruyn's one of many people who occupy positions in the Labor Party. Joe, for
many years, has been involved on the National Executive but, he's one of a range of voices.

And on the Greens, we have very clear policy differences, Scott, from the Greens. I think that's
been clear certainly in the Federal Parliament for several years now and it's certainly clear in
the Victorian State election.

But there's a bit of a difference between the Greens and some other parties in Australia. With the
Greens, for example, the Greens have shown themselves willing to work with us towards setting a
price on carbon in Australia unlike George Brandis' party, the Liberal Party, who have turned their
back on rational discussion about this topic. They actually seem to think climate change is a joke,
that setting a price on carbon's a joke and they've ruled out warranting.

So by contrast with the Greens or Joe De Bruyn, who are prepared to engage in discussion about
policy, engage in discussion about making progress in Australia on important issues, we've got the
Liberal Party actually turning its back.

SCOTT BEVAN: George Brandis?

GEORGE BRANDIS: Well that's a nonsense thing to say. In fact it's the Liberal Party that has set
the agenda on climate change. We announced at the beginning of this year, our spokesman Greg Hunt,
announced a series of direct action measures.

What do we see now in the United States? President Obama has abandoned cap-and-trade legislation
and announced a series of direct action measures somewhat resembling the measures Greg Hunt
announced on behalf of the Coalition earlier in the year.

So, you know, the problem with Mark is that he is still fixated on the ETS. So, it's not something
the Government is fixated on because they abandoned it earlier in the year. But there are a range
of approaches to this, Mark. And the Liberal Party and the National Party, having announced a
series of measures, are now finding ourselves in the vanguard of this argument if the measures
announced by president Obama in the United States are anything to go by.

SCOTT BEVAN: Mark Dreyfus, more broadly, on that issue raised by Mr De Bruyn, if there is the
perception of pandering to the Greens by the ALP, how great is the risk that you will lose the
middle ground, as he suggested, and as a result you'll lose elections?

MARK DREYFUS: As I've already said Scott, we've got very clear policy differences with the Greens.
That's why we are standing against the Greens in every seat in the Victorian State election, Upper
House and Lower House, that's why we have got direct contests against the Greens at the federal
election just held. And all I was saying before is on some issues, unlike the Liberal Party, the
Greens are prepared to sit down and engage in serious negotiations...

GEORGE BRANDIS: But Mark you're...

MARK DREYFUS: We've got a finely balanced Parliament and it's one in which it's necessary for the
Government to engage in negotiations with the cross-benchers, engage in negotiations with the sole
lone, I could say, Green member of the House of Representatives. Just as we have engaged in
negotiation in the Senate during our first term of Government with conspicuous success on a range
of matters. Notably, getting rid of WorkChoices and passing the fair work legislation which was the
product of serious negotiation with the Greens and with Senator Zenophon and of course with Senator

And we show, we've shown, in our first term, an ability to negotiate in the Senate and we're going
to show in our second term an ability to be constructive and work through things in the House of
Representatives as well.

GEORGE BRANDIS: The problem you face though, Mark, is that in the Federal Parliament you govern at
the mercy of the Greens. You govern at the sufferance of the Greens.

The only reason why the Labor Party forms a Government in Canberra today is because Prime Minister
Gillard entered into a formal written pact with the Greens, adopted many measures on the Greens'
radical social agenda. And now Senator Brown, who is the de facto deputy prime minister of
Australia, has more access to the Prime Minister than most cabinet ministers do.

Under the terms of that alliance, Senator Brown is entitled to weekly meetings with the Prime
Minister. That's more access than most Cabinet Ministers do. So please, Mark, don't try and
pretend, because it wouldn't be true, that you don't govern because you sold traditional Labor
Party principles and traditional working-class Labor Party voters out in order to do the Greens'

MARK DREYFUS: I think George is, as he often does, talking nonsense and he's forgotten about Tony
Windsor and Rob Oakeshott and Andrew Wilkie with whose support Labor has been able to form
Government despite not having a majority of the seats in the House of Representatives.

And I think they'd take offence at the suggestion it's solely the one Green member of the House of
Representatives who's been responsible for Labor being able to form Government.

It's very clearly been with the assistance of those three independents from different parts of

SCOTT BEVAN: Gentlemen, let's push on to an issue that is the independents have shown a great deal
of interest in and that's the National Broadband Network issue and with the Government's refusal to
release yet its business plan in regard to the NBN.

How much does this look like the Government trying to hide something, Mark Dreyfus, and what will
that do to public confidence in this $43 billion project?

MARK DREYFUS: What seems to be forgotten, indeed, in your question, Scott, if you'll forgive me, is
that the Prime Minister and the Minister, Senator Stephen Conroy, have made it absolutely clear
that the business plan for NBN Co. is going to be released in December, so we've put a date on it.
And the reason it hasn't been released before now is there's a whole range of commercially
sensitive, commercial-in-confidence-type information.

The Government's entitled to go through the document, make sure that there aren't things,
commercially sensitive material, that shouldn't be released and that should take place before the
document is released, which is to take place in December.

There's a certain irony, Scott, I'd have to say, in the baying for release of the document by the
Liberal Party, given that in the whole of their nearly 12 years in Government not a single business
plan for any Government business enterprise, and I include in that large enterprises like Australia
Post and Medibank, not one of those ever had their business plans released.

SCOTT BEVAN: George Brandis, do you concede there is a bit of an air of hypocrisy there?

GEORGE BRANDIS: Not at all. Not at all. What we were doing in Government was we were privatising
Government businesses. We weren't creating new Government monopolies.

What this Government is doing is in effect creating a huge national monopoly and there is
legislation introduced by Senator Conroy before the Senate at the moment to exclude the application
of the competition laws under the trade practices act, to exclude NBN Co. from those laws.

It's not merely a question of fact that the Government is delaying releasing the business plan
until after Parliament has risen so Parliament can't give it proper parliamentary scrutiny.

As well, this week the Government thwarted an attempt by the Opposition to refer the matter to the
Productivity Commission and your viewers should be aware, Scott, that there is provision in the
legislation that excludes the National Broadband Network from supervision by the Parliamentary
Public Works Committee.

This is the biggest public works ever undertaken in Australia by several orders of magnitude and at
every step in the way the Government is being concerned to deny the Parliament and through the
Parliament the people the opportunity to assess it, to see whether the business case stacks up or

SCOTT BEVAN: Mark Dreyfus, briefly do you want to respond?

MARK DREYFUS: I say to you that that is simply not true. As the Prime Minister has said, the
business plan is going to be released in December. This is not the last piece...

GEORGE BRANDIS: Why isn't it released next week Mark?

MARK DREYFUS: ...If you'd let me finish, George, I listened you out. This is not the piece of
legislation concerning the National Broadband Network that is going to be before the Parliament.
It's subject to scrutiny by Senate committees. And most importantly, Labor went to the last
election very clearly outlining this huge piece of infrastructure which is going to provide
tremendous benefits across the country to regional Australia.

It's going to transform the way in which business is done, the way in which education is done, the
way in which health services are provided in our country...


MARK DREYFUS: ...and what the Liberal Party wishes to do is to wreck it.

GEORGE BRANDIS: This is an act of faith and that's the problem.

You don't invest $43 billion creating the largest public works in the country's history, creating
the largest government business that has ever been created in the country's history, without proper
consideration of whether the business plan stacks up.

Now Mark says, "well, you know, we've got to take this commercial in confidence information out of
the document". The document has been in the hands of the Government for several days now. It's said
to be a 400 page document. It doesn't take several days to identify and redact from a 400 page
document what might be commercial in confidence.

We want to see the numbers and the Government remorselessly withholds them from scrutiny by the
Parliament and by the public.

SCOTT BEVAN: Gentlemen we'll have to leave it there but Mark Dreyfus in Melbourne; Senator George
Brandis in Brisbane, thanks so much for your time tonight.

MARK DREYFUS: Good to be with you Scott.

GEORGE BRANDIS: Thanks Scott, thanks mate.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Assange hits back at rape allegations.

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange says allegations of rape are false and without basis after an
international arrest warrant was issued for him due to complaints by two women.


SCOTT BEVAN, PRESENTER: The Australian founder of whistle blower group WikiLeaks says allegations
of rape and molestation against him are false and without basis.

An international arrest warrant can now be issued for Julian Assange after a court hearing in
Sweden accepted that he had a case to answer over complaints by two women.

Peter Lloyd reports.

PETER LLOYD, REPORTER: In Stockholm's District Court they held a brief hearing that transformed
Julian Assange's public persona from whistle blower to wanted man.

MARIANNE NY, CHIEF PROSECUTOR (TRANSLATION): The district court shared my judgment that Assange, on
probable cause, is guilty of sexual assault and rape.

PETER LLOYD: The claims against Australian-born Assange date from August when he was applying to
live in Sweden.

He wanted to base WikiLeaks in the country to take advantage of its strong legal protection for

CLAES BORGSTROM, WOMEN'S LAWYER (TRANSLATION): The two women I represent have waited for a very
long time to get a decision on what will happen in the investigation.

PETER LLOYD: From London, a lawyer acting for Mr Assange issued a statement said that the rape
charge followed consensual but unprotected sex.

Only after the women became aware of each other's relationship with Mr Assange did they make the

The allegations, he said, are false and without basis.

In Sweden, a different Assange lawyer was trying to discredit the prosecution's allegation.

BJORN HURTIG, ASSANGE LAWYER: Well I think it's weak evidence. I don't think that if they went to
trial today, I don't think they should win the case with this evidence. I think they need some

It's enough to put him in custody obviously.

PETER LLOYD: Sweden has already turned down Julian Assange's residency application. After the
court's decision he's become a fugitive from the country he wanted to call home.

(Footage of US Army Apache helicopter firing on insurgents in Baghdad)

PETER LLOYD: Julian Assange's WikiLeaks group gained worldwide attention back in April with the
release of this leaked video.

Footage from on board a US Army Apache helicopter gunship shows Americans firing on suspected
insurgents in Baghdad three years ago.

US ARMY MEMBER: Come on, just shoot.

US ARMY MEMBER 2: One-eight, engage.



PETER LLOYD: The dead included unarmed civilians, children and two employees of the Reuters news
agency who were carrying equipment wrongly identified as weaponry.

US ARMY MEMBER 2: Let's Shoot.

(End footage)

PETER LLOYD: WikiLeaks has also angered the Pentagon by releasing vast numbers of leaked military
documents from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Julian Assange has long claimed he would one day be the victim of a smear campaign.

Last month the Swedish sex claims were put to him during a CNN interview, provoking this angry

CNN INTERVIEWER: I'm asking whether or not you...

JULIAN ASSANGE, WIKILEAKS FOUNDER: I'm going to walk if you're going to contaminate us revealing
the deaths of 104,000 people with attacks against my person.

PETER LLOYD: Julian Assange's whereabouts are now a mystery.

Peter Lloyd, Lateline.

Shot twins suicide pact

Police in Colorado have revealed that two sisters involved in a bizarre shooting incident were
carrying out a suicide pact.


SCOTT BEVAN, PRESENTER: Police in Colorado have confirmed that Australian twin sisters involved in
a mysterious shooting incident at a firing range were carrying out a suicide pact.

One of the 29-year-old women died at the scene. The other is in a serious condition in hospital
with a head wound.

Police say the surviving twin was angry and upset but agreed to be interviewed.

CAPTAIN LOUIE PEREA, ARAPHOE COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: She did confirm that she and her sister had
planned on committing suicide, in fact. They did in fact shoot themselves.

SCOTT BEVAN: The women, from Victoria, were at the shooting range, practising with small calibre

Their parents are expected to arrive in Colorado tomorrow.

Bout trial to test US-Russia ties

The trial of alleged arms dealer Viktor Bout is set to strain the United States' relationship with
Russia, which is already being impacted by the possibility of a new disarmament treaty.


SCOTT BEVAN, PRESENTER: Well, he's entered a plea of not guilty but it's a safe bet there are many
in Moscow who hope the case of accused Russian arms dealer, Viktor Bout, never makes it to court.

They're hoping the prospect of a life sentence will be coax Bout into a plea deal that will keep
his potentially explosive revelations secret.

If Bout's extradition wasn't enough to strain Russia-US ties, the Kremlin is bracing for the worst
after indications from Washington that the new START disarmament treaty, faces an uphill battle in
the US Senate.

Moscow correspondent Norman Hermant reports.

NORMAN HERMANT, REPORTER: When US agents showed off their prize catch to the world it was not a
welcome sight in Moscow.

For two years the Kremlin fought to keep alleged arms dealer, Viktor Bout, out of American hands
and with good reason. In the world of black market arms, Bout's operation was one-stop shopping.

He could get almost any weapon to anyone, anywhere in the world, if the price was right, according
to journalist Pavel Felgenhauer, who has followed Bout for years.

PAVEL FELGENHAUER, NOVAYA GAZETA NEWSPAPER: That means that he knew who gave the orders and where
he delivered the pizza. And that is information that apparently Russian authorities are afraid of,
can be used by the United States in political blackmail.

NORMAN HERMANT: Bout, using his links to the Soviet military, created his business in the chaos
that followed the USSR's collapse. Providing transport planes, pilots, weapons and ammunition.

He's believed to have left his mark on wars from Eritrea to the Balkans to Afghanistan.

There's speculation many who had dealings with Bout hoped he'd eventually be turned over to the

Instead, without a plea deal, his case will go to a public trial. Then, say analysts, the skeletons
could really start coming out of the closet.

PAVEL FELGENHAUER: It's a situation which is potentially dangerous and a lot of stuff can get out
of control and get leaked and embarrass a lot of people. And people who are maybe important in the
'90s and some people may be important now, in Russia and in many other countries.

NORMAN HERMANT: Bout isn't the only irritant troubling US-Russia relations.

His extradition came as word emerged from Washington that the much-heralded new Strategic Arms
Reduction Treaty faces a tough fight for passage in the US Senate.

This analyst says that has much more potential for damage than Viktor Bout's case does.

MIKHAIL TROITSKY, POLITICAL ANALYST: What could be most painful for the bilateral relationship
would possibly be a protracted and painful discussion in the US Senate on whether to ratify the
treaty or not.

NORMAN HERMANT: A long debate in Washington, he says, would only embolden those in the Kremlin and
the Russian military who have long been opposeed to any disarmament treaties with the US.

Viktor Bout and a START setback are big potential obstacles but both the White House and the
Kremlin are heavily invested in this new reset relationship.

Russia needs investment for modernisation, the US wants more Russian help in Afghanistan and in
dealing with Iran.

For both Washington and Moscow there's a lot to lose.

Norman Hermant, Lateline.

Irish economy in desperate situation.

Economics correspondent Stephen Long discusses the dire economic situation in Ireland.


SCOTT BEVAN, PRESENTER: With me now in the studio for his Friday night take on the world of
economics and finance is economics correspondent Stephen Long.

Stephen g'day.


SCOTT BEVAN: The woes of the Irish economy have been rocking the markets this week. But what I'm
wondering is, given Ireland is a fairly small country, small economy, why is Europe so worried?

STEPHEN LONG: Well if the risk was just to Ireland I suspect Europe would leave the Irish to cry
into their Guinness. But the risk, the ultimate risk is that Ireland's woes could trigger a series
of insidious feedback loops that cause a new credit crash.

And the worry is that it won't end with Ireland - that if Ireland's finances are in such a parlous
state that the markets are betting that it will need a bail-out and basically that the price of
Irish debt becomes so high that it's difficult for it to fund itself - the same might happen to
Portugal then, perhaps, even Spain, quite a large economy in Europe, even Italy, and then they'll
all have to turn to the European Central Bank and this European bail-out facility. And that will
poison and infect the finances of Germany.

And ultimately that will crash the banking system, because you'll see banks that hold the bonds of
these various nations having to write them down.

You get a new situation where banking credit becomes so tight that lending dries up and then you
can add to that that they're all under pressure to put in place fiscal austerity measures. Which
mean more cuts to public spending which feed into recessionary conditions and take away the props
from economic growth. So multiple feedback loops.

And this is one of the things, strangely enough, that economics tends to look on these things as
linear, economic developments as fairly linear, what we're actually seeing is that the global
financial system is more like an organism and subject to all sorts of interconnections.

SCOTT BEVAN: So the economic toe bone is connected to the foot bone and on and on and on?

STEPHEN LONG: And so on and so on until the whole carcass collapses, yes.

SCOTT BEVAN: So given all of that, and that interconnection, why is the Irish Government so
reluctant to accept a bail-out?

STEPHEN LONG: Because it means a loss of sovereignty.

Basically because in return for the bail-out they will inevitably have to accept conditions for
further cuts to public sector spending, they will be under the dominion, in effect, of Europe and
probably also the International Monetary Fund

And for the Irish people, sovereignty is a big deal. If you're familiar with the history of
Ireland, and I'm sure you are, this has been a big issue. They're a proudly independent nation
that's suffered invasion, and you often hear the Irish talk about the English dominating them for
800 long years and all this kind of stuff.

So it's a big deal in Ireland.

SCOTT BEVAN: Stephen Long thanks for that.

STEPHEN LONG: You're welcome.


Stephen Long, thank you.

You're welcome

. Now to the weather. That's all from us. If you'd like to look back at tonight's interview with
George Brandis and Mark of Lateline's stories or transcripts you can visit our went site. You can
also went site. You can also follow us on Twitter or Facebook. Leigh Sales will be back on mane.
I'm mane. I'm Scott Bevan. Thanks for your company.

Closed Captions by CSI Frouft

THEME MUSIC G'day, I'm Wil Anderson. Welcome to The Gruen Transfer, a show about how we're
persuaded to buy stuff. Tonight, our panel of experts includes, from Leo Burnett, Todd Sampson, and
from George Patterson Y & R, Russel Howcroft. APPLAUSE And we're joined by a pair of Gruen
veterans, freelance creative Bridget Taylor and former strategy director at Saatchi And Saatchi,
Bram Williams. APPLAUSE OK, this is called What's Wrong With This Ad? Something about the next
commercial isn't right. Panel, can you spot the fox in the henhouse?

# I feel good # I knew that I would now # So good # I got you. #

What's wrong with the ad, Todd? What's wrong?

We should change this session to What's Right With The Ad?


I don't know about you. But whenever I try to take those subs out of the packet, I make a mess all
over the place, so I can't imagine dancing around like you're absolutely insane, with that in your
hand and it not flinging all over the place.

One thing about this advertiser drives me mental. They actually should do great ads. They are a
global powerhouse that's had amazing success. So if you've got all that behind you, what an amazing
opportunity to do some great, great stuff. It'd just be really good if they did.


It's got to be the song, hasn't it? When you put it out there and use one of the greatest tracks of
all time, I reckon, looking at that, rather than, "I feel good," it should've been based on the
action in that ad, "I feel idiotic," is probably more where they should've gone.

To add to what you say with the song, there's enough cheese in Subway, to add another big cheesy
song on top. Plus this ad launched this whole thing of, "Hey, make your own ad of you dancing
around, then you can win $10,000." Now, one of the biggest global companies in the world, which
makes billions of dollars every year, is going to give you $10,000 to make a complete idiot of

But if you send a video to Subway to show on TV, you are a knob and I'm talking foot-long, not
six-inch. So what do we think is wrong with that ad? Well, it's in the fine print for us. There it
is. Doctor's Associates. The name of the company that owns Subway. Look, it's true that one of the
founders was a medic. But a fast-food company with a name that implies health, wellbeing and
science-y goodness? How cheeky is that? The word "doctor" is even there subliminally in the opening
shot. Ah, but the Subway ad has given us a cracker of an idea. We've registered the company name
Nine Out Of Ten Experts. Here's the certificate.

That is genius.


That is genius.

APPLAUSE If any brands are watching, for a fee, we'll be happy to let you claim that your product
is recommended by Nine Out Of Ten Experts. Tonight, the raw violence, blood, gristle and horror of
red meat. Did I mention I'm a vegetarian?

'The scent of seduction. The burning flame of desire. Lamb. The fragrance for spring.'

I love Lamb.

Look, I might not eat widdle baby wambs, but I do love that ad. I regularly wipe myself with a chop
before going out. Keeps away the hippies. Now, Russel, when you're talking lamb and beef, you're
not advertising an actual brand. It's not Heinz lamb, it's just lamb. Does this make it easier or

It might make it easier, I think I'll vote for easier, in that you're ultimately just trying to
promote the generic benefits of a category, so you can just take the category as a whole. You
haven't got the commercial pressures of other brands trying to get space, so that therefore allows
you to be single-minded.

The clever thing they did was to treat these not as commodities or treat them as products, to treat
them as brands in their own right. So they developed lamb and red meat. They separate them by their
tone or their character, so lamb is really irreverent and red meat is kind of Mum's helper. It's a
very clever way of looking at a product that's generally viewed as generic and a commodity.

Bridget, this ad here ran as a full page ad in a women's magazine. Aren't men the meat eaters? Why
are you selling it to the women?

Yeah, men traditionally are the meat eaters, but with a product like this, you're trying to target
the household shopper, because at the end of the day, it's the person standing in the supermarket
aisle deciding what to buy for dinner. Traditionally, that's been Mum. But also, when this actually
launched, it was as a Mother's Day promotion. What lamb tries to do is own occasions when the
family get together. So it's perfect for Mother's Day. They did such a good job of making it
appealing and fashionable, that people actually went out to perfume shops and asked for the new
Lamb fragrance.


I don't know if that was saying that the ad was great or that people are just idiots.

Fair point.

Perfume parodies aside, since 2005, lamb growers have been pinning their hopes on Slammin' Sam

My fellow Australians. It is my solemn duty to inform you that it's time to abolish Australia Day.
Our annual lamb fest hasn't stopped un-Australianism raging through the land, like horse flu
through a Japanese jockey club. For example, if I see another binge drinking, pill popping,
powder-sniffing footballer making a tearful television apology, I'll blow a fuse. Australia Day has
had its day. We need Australia Week, a seven-day Lamb-athon, to properly celebrate our great
nation. Instead of one public holiday, we need seven.