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It's kind of a metaphor.

It is. It's really deep.

It is, isn't it? Yeah

.

Tonight - polls apart -

My view remains that we shouldn't try to lead the world but neither can we afford to limp behind.
We have emissions economy.

As the Prime Minister takes a carbon tax hit, Tony Abbott savours the impact.

I'm run ing a truth campaign against the carbon tax because the truth campaign

appears to be having an impact. This Program is Captioned Live.

Good evening. Welcome to Lateline. I'm Ali Moore. As the Opposition draws first blood over the
carbon tax, the who will be key to any plan getting through Parliament is a long way from backing
what the Prime Minister has put on the table. Independent MP Tony Windsor says the way the
Government has handled the iron, with no detail, has been a mistake.

So the Government has brought a bit of this on themselves, probably under pressure from the think
that's reflecting in the polls. That doesn't mean that it's insur ectable. I think people as I said
do want the debate, but they want a little bit more advanced than the word lie and the word tax.

Tony Windsor joins us from his electorate tonight. First, our other headlines. Britain and France
draw up plan for a no-fly zone over Libya and hope to get NATO on board. Invasion by boat - by boat
- the tiny Sicillian island trying to cope with the arrival of thousands fleeing the unrest in
North Africa. We have a special report. On have a special report.

Newspoll records public anger over carbon tax

Newspoll records public anger over carbon tax

Broadcast: 08/03/2011

Reporter: Tom Iggulden

Julia Gillard is faced with winning back support for action on carbon as the Government's Newspoll
numbers hit a record low.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: As we reported last night, the Government's Newspoll numbers are in freefall
following Julia Gillard's announcement that she'll bring in a carbon tax.

The question now is what the Government can do to bring the once supportive public back behind
plans to curb the country's carbon output, especially at a time when the Opposition's message
opposing the tax appears to be hitting it's mark.

Political correspondent Tom Iggulden reports.

TOM IGGULDEN, REPORTER: Julia Gillard had a present for president Obama: an Australian football and
a one-on-one coaching clinic.

He in turn had a gift for her: public praise.

BARACK OBAMA, US PRESIDENT: I have to say that from a distance at least, she is doing an
outstanding job.

TOM IGGULDEN: That's not the judgement of many Australian voters, according to the latest Newspoll.
Labor's primary vote is at 30 per cent, the lowest since Newspoll began. And Julia Gillard's
satisfaction rating is falling quickly, down 11 points in just a fortnight.

The key turning point was her carbon tax announcement, but she's not backing away from the plan.

JULIA GILLARD, PRIME MINISTER: My view remains that we shouldn't try to lead the world, but neither
can we afford to limp behind. We have a high-emissions economy.

TOM IGGULDEN: Despite the fact the Obama administration's abandoned plans for now to bring in
carbon pricing, Julia Gillard's trying to convince voter's she's on the same page as other world
leaders.

JULIA GILLARD: President Obama has said to the American people that he is focused on a clean energy
future, and so am I for Australia.

TOM IGGULDEN: Tony Abbott was visiting a school closer to home and singing a very different song.
His visit to Strathcona Girls Baptist School was to mark International Women's Day.

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: Three million women every year are exposed to the risk of genital
mutilation.

TOM IGGULDEN: But his main message was focussed on the carbon tax and countering the Government's
accusation's that he's running a scare campaign.

TONY ABBOTT: I'm running a truth campaign against the carbon tax. Because the truth campaign
appears to be having an impact, I imagine that they will run an ad campaign, because the one thing
that these guys specialise in is ad campaigns using taxpayers' money.

JULIA GILLARD: From time to time we advertise to get necessary information to people. So I'm not
going to rule in or rule out government advertising in the future.

TOM IGGULDEN: But a pro-carbon tax ad campaign runs the risk of making the Prime Minister look
hypocritical.

JULIA GILLARD (2007): Mr Howard claimed, has claimed today that these advertisements aren't
political. ... These ads are political ads, they're meant to help the Government, they should be
paid for by the Liberal Party, not Australian taxpayers.

TOM IGGULDEN: Now that Julia Gillard's the Prime Minister with a controversial plan to sell, she
can't afford to rule out anything if she's to bring the Australian public back on side with Labor's
plans to price carbon. One of her messages is likely to be that Australia's not going it alone when
it comes to action on climate change.

JILL DUGGAN, EUROPEAN COMMISSION: Well that's always quite surprising for somebody coming from
Europe where we've had a carbon price across Europe. So that's 500 million people in Europe have
had a carbon price since 2005.

TOM IGGULDEN: The Opposition says Europe's carbon system is different to the one being proposed by
the Government, but Jill Duggan says whatever the system, Australians have little to fear.

JILL DUGGAN: The experience in Europe has been that actually the drive to a low-carbon economy has
created more jobs. I'm not aware of any jobs that have been lost as a result of the imposition of a
carbon price.

TOM IGGULDEN: Yet another voice in an increasingly complicated debate.

Tom Iggulden, Lateline.

The former One Nation leader, Pauline Hanson, is reportedly launching a surprise bid for NSW upper
house. In this month's state election. Ms Hanson is believed to be planning a campaign on cost of
living issues and is reported in tomorrow's 'Sydney Morning Herald'.

Obama delays closing Gauntanamo Bay

Obama delays closing Gauntanamo Bay

Broadcast: 08/03/2011

Reporter:

US president Barack Obama has announced a resumption of military trials at Guantanamo Bay but says
he is still committed to its closure.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: President Obama has gone back on a promise to close Guantanamo Bay. Instead,
he's announced military trials are on again after a two-year freeze.

Prisoners not charged or convicted but deemed too dangerous to be released will continue to be held
indefinitely.

When elected, just over two years ago, the president pledged to shut down Guantanamo within 12
months. The White House says he remains committed to its eventual closure.

Libya's rebels hold on against air strikes

Libya's rebels hold on against air strikes

Broadcast: 08/03/2011

Reporter: Anne Barker

International calls for a no-fly zone over Libya are growing louder as leader Moamar Gaddafi
continues to use air strikes against rebels.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Libyan leader Colonel Gaddafi has launched fresh air strikes against rebel
forces, reinforcing calls for a no-fly zone.

Britain and France are currently drafting a UN resolution to establish an air exclusion zone over
the country, which will be debated at NATO meeting on Thursday.

On the ground, rebels are fighting to retain control of the east of the country and a number of key
towns in the west, despite the Government counter-attacks.

Middle East correspondent Anne Barker reports.

ANNE BARKER, REPORTER: Government forces launch another air strike on rebels in the oil port of Ras
Lanuf. So far, the rebels have managed to hold the town with anti-aircraft guns and grenade
launchers. And more weapons and reinforcements are continually being sent to the front line from
other rebel-controlled towns like Brega.

HAIBA HILAL, REBEL FIGHTER (voiceover translation): Some commanders, colonels and generals from the
Libyan Army came to us from the free cities and gave us proper orders to be reorganised, better
than before, as you can see here in the companies and brigades.

ANNE BARKER: The rebels believe they can take on Gaddafi's ground forces, but admit they're
outgunned if the Government uses its air power. And that's why they keep repeating their call for a
no-fly zone. It's a demand that's vexing the international community and one that'll be discussed
at a NATO meeting later this week. There is general support for the rebels.

BARACK OBAMA, US PRESIDENT: I want to send a very clear message to those who are around Colonel
Gaddafi: it is their choice to make how they operate moving forward and they will be held
accountable for whatever violence continues to take place there. In the meantime, we've got NATO,
as we speak, consulting in Brussels around a wide range of potential options, including potential
military options.

ANNE BARKER: But the exact details are problematic.

ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Any NATO operation would take place in accordance
with and pursuant to a UN mandate. I also note that the current UN mandate does not authorise the
use of armed forces. However, I can't imagine the international community and the United Nations
stand idly by if Gaddafi and his regime continue to attack their own people systematically.

ANNE BARKER: If there is a decision to establish a no-fly zone, it'll only feed into the Libyan
regime's view of the role of the West.

MOUSSA KOUSSA, LIBYAN FOREIGN MINISTER (voiceover translation): It seems they have an agenda and
there is a tremendous conspiracy. It's clear now that France, the UK and the USA are now getting in
touch with disaffected people in Benghazi. For sure, there is a conspiracy to divide Libya. It
seems that the British are yearning for colonial era in that part.

ANNE BARKER: Colonel Gaddafi though has reportedly offered to leave the country if he and his
family's well-being and wealth are guaranteed.

A former prime minister has also offered to hold talks with the rebels.

JADALLAH AZOUS AL-TALHI, FORMER LIBYAN PRIME MINISTER (voiceover translation): The tragic situation
that we have created for ourselves in the last few days has become complicated and it will get more
complicated as the days go by. And it has started to take on international and regional dimensions.
If we don't deal with this now, we will lose control as Libyan people and we would have surrendered
our future as Libyans to the will of others.

ANNE BARKER: But the rebels have rejected both offers out of hand and say Gaddafi doesn't deserve
an honourable exit and is only seeking to buy extra time to marshal his forces.

Anne Barker, Lateline.

North-African asylum seekers flee to Italy

North-African asylum seekers flee to Italy

Broadcast: 08/03/2011

Reporter: Emma Alberici

The small Sicilian island of Lampedusa has seen the arrival of 7,500 asylum seekers from Tunisia
and Libya since mid February.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The unrest in North Africa over the past month is causing plenty of concern
in Italy.

Over the past 24 hours, 1,500 migrants fleeing Tunisia and Libya have landed on the tiny Sicilian
island of Lampedusa, adding to the more than 6,000 who have arrived since mid February. With just
850 beds, the island's holding centre is under-equipped to cope with the arrivals.

The Italian Government wants the rest of the European Union to take in some of the would-be
migrants from North Africa, with the EU's border control agency estimating that up to 1.5 million
people might be heading for Italian shores

Europe correspondent Emma Alberici travelled to Lampedusa for Lateline and filed this report.

EMMA ALBERICI, REPORTER: It's becoming an all-too-familiar sighting for the Italian coastguard: old
wooden boats crammed full of Tunisians fleeing their homeland and headed for the tiny Sicilian
island of Lampedusa. Just 130 kilometres across the Mediterranean, Lampedusa is closer to North
Africa than it is to Italy. It's long been considered the gateway to Europe.

The Italian coastguard has tonight found seven boats on its radar. So we've come out here to see if
they're OK and whether they need to be rescued, given some sort of assistance to come in to shore.
And while we've come out here, we've discovered this boat, which had before now gone completely
unnoticed. There are at least 50 people on board, and we've seen also a young boy of about four or
five years old and at least two women.

For a boat like this travelling at full speed, it will take 28 hours to reach Italy from Tunisia,
but most are at sea for two or three days. It's the ones they don't find that troubles Captain
Vittorio Allesandro.

VITTORIO ALLESANDRO, ITALIAN COASTGUARD (voiceover translation): Naturally we're all concerned
because weather conditions out there are not good. We know what we can do; the worry is about what
we can't. Two people have already been lost in the sea, but what about those we can't see who don't
hit our radar? There is a real possibility that there are many more out there that we couldn't save
because we don't know they were out there.

EMMA ALBERICI: As day breaks on this island paradise, a shocking reality dawns on those who've
risked their lives to escape the chaos of Tunisia. 1,000 in one night flocking to a holding centre
that sleeps just 800 and was already at full capacity.

They wait here for a flight that will take them to be processed in other parts of Italy that have
already taken in 7,000 Tunisian migrants since the fall of president Ben Ali. The Italian
Government has declared a state of emergency.

The United Nations refugee agency, the UNHCR in Lampedusa, is worried about the absence of boats
coming from Libya.

BARBARA MOLINARIO, UNHCR: We haven't had a float from Libya, although we need to be ready in case
there should be a flow from Libya. We know that there are persons of concern to the UNHCR in Libya,
mainly people from Somalia, from Eretria, from Sudan that used to land in Lampedusa until 2009.

What we are advocating is that governments when they are evacuating their own nationals also keep
in mind that there are people there that cannot go to their embassy, that don't have this luxury of
being evacuated by their own countries, as they're fleeing their own countries, and they should
keep them in mind in the evacuation plans.

EMMA ALBERICI: In 2008, 36,000 asylum seekers came to Lampedusa from Eritrea, Somalia and Nigeria,
boarding boats in Libya. Then, Silvio Berlusconi signed a friendship agreement with Moamar Gaddafi.
Rome handed $5 billion to Tripoli, and in return, Libya stopped the boats. The UNHCR is now
concerned about the plight of those sub-Saharan Africans who can no longer flee to Europe through
Libya.

BARBARA MOLINARIO: Right now what we hear is that they are inside their homes and they are trapped.
They're having a really hard time getting out of the house, accessing food and health care and this
is because they are scared of the repercussions, as there were sub-Saharan Africans used in
Gaddafi's militias.

EMMA ALBERICI: As last night's boats continue to make their way to the port, the Customs police
intercept one fishing boat so small it beggars belief that 81 people crossed the Mediterranean on
board. The only woman among them is one of three suffering from hypothermia and transported to
hospital.

Lampedusa's mayor Bernadino De Rubeis is asking Europe to help shoulder the burden and open its
doors to those caught up in the African rebellion.

BERNARDINO DE RUBEIS, LAMPEDUSA MAYOR (voiceover translation): My concern is that Italy cannot cope
with this situation on its own. We cannot continue to take all these people in. Italy can't be left
alone to deal with this crisis. At some point Europe will need to pitch in to help these poor
people of whom there are so, so many.

EMMA ALBERICI: As for the 5,000 people who live on Lampedusa, they're praying that the tourists
from the north aren't put off by the migrants hailing from the south.

RESIDENT (voiceover translation): We hope that Italy is not going to be left alone to deal with
this big problem, that the European Union, even America, gives us a hand here.

RESIDENT II (voiceover translation): The island is so small and we don't know what's heading our
way. It might be Libyans. Libyans are scary. Not like the Tunisians, who are nice and friendly. But
we don't know what sort of people the Libyans really are.

RESIDENT III (voiceover translation): What I hear is that people are concerned about the island's
tourism industry. They say tourists won't come because they're scared of the immigrants. The
migrants are scaring the tourists away.

EMMA ALBERICI: In the past seven weeks, more than 80 Tunisian vessels have been dumped in what's
come to resemble a boat cemetery on Lampedusa. There are more at the port waiting to be destroyed.

The race is on to find a solution to the crisis before the summer approaches. Fishing and tourism
are the only sources of income here.

Emma Alberici, Lateline.

Windsor: We need a debate on carbon

Windsor: We need a debate on carbon

Broadcast: 08/03/2011

Reporter: Ali Moore

Key independent MP Tony Windsor says we need to forget accusations of lying and have a substantive
debate on a carbon tax.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Back to our top story: the Government's carbon tax. A short time ago I was
joined from Tamworth by key independent MP Tony Windsor.

Tony Windsor, welcome to Lateline.

TONY WINDSOR, INDEPENDENT MP: Pleasure, Ali.

ALI MOORE: You've been back in our electorate since Parliament rose last week and we've seen how
nationally voters have responded to plans for a carbon tax through the Newspoll. What are people
telling you in your electorate?

TONY WINDSOR: Well, mixed messages. Some parts of the electorate where there's been a bit of a
scare campaign are very concerned that the Taxation Office are going to suddenly send them a carbon
tax account, which is quite ridiculous.

To other parts of the electorate, Armidale for instance I think wants to embrace the climate change
debate and have a proper debate. I was on the Liverpool Plains, which is some of the richest
agricultural land, on Sunday, where they've got concerns about coal mining and coal seam gas, etc.,
and a lot of those people were very positive in terms of the debate taking place.

So it's a microcosm of Australia, I guess: people have different views and some of their views have
been constructed on some of the mythology that's out there and not really based on a constructive
debate.

ALI MOORE: You talk about it being a microcosm of Australia; of course Julia Gillard's lead over
Tony Abbott as preferred prime minister in terms of this national Newspoll has been slashed by half
since she announced plans for a carbon tax. What do you think the issue has done to you personally
in your electorate?

TONY WINDSOR: Well I don't really know the answer to that. I'm not picking up any anger around the
place. Probably from the usual suspects in terms of some within the National Party that have never
supported me. Some want to know what the basis of the argument is in terms of a carbon price, and
hopefully with a bit of time that sort of argument will be spelt out.

I want to be involved in that argument as well, because I didn't vote for the Carbon Pollution
Reduction Scheme last time. I do believe in the precautionary principle in terms of climate change.
I think if the climate scientists are right and we don't do anything, what have we actually done?
That could have massive consequences globally.

But I also believe in the issue that was raised last time as well, and the Productivity
Commission's going to be doing some work on this, that we've got to find out what the implicit
carbon prices are, particularly with our competitors, but also other global nations so that we can
either be part of that, and if the rest of the globe's doing nothing, well it's probably pretty
pointless Australia doing something.

But the Productivity Commission and Garnaut and others will report back as to changes in the
science since Copenhagen and also any changes in terms of implicit pricing - not just emissions
trading schemes, but also some of the policies that exist overseas to abate carbon.

ALI MOORE: You talk about a scare campaign, but I guess in terms of having that debate, the
starting point is working out what people are worried about. How do you read those poll results? Do
you read them as people being, I guess, first of all upset about a broken promise? Do you read it
as being a serious response to a carbon tax? Or do you read it as more a comment on how the
Government is selling the idea or not selling it, as the case may be?

TONY WINDSOR: Well I think there's a bit of all three in it. Obviously the lie factor and the tax
factor are consequences in the poll itself. I don't think the Government - and when it was
announced, the Prime Minister and the Greens agreed with this framework that's put in place with a
fixed price which will eventually go to an emissions trading scheme.

I don't think they sold it too well, and my understanding as part of that committee was that the
Climate Change Commission would in fact get out there and talk to the community, engage the
community. And I think they've put the cart before the horse a bit here. They've sort of given the
conclusion without a number, without a target, without a price, and then said that there will be a
debate within the community. So, I'm not surprised that there's been a bit of a reaction to this.

But over and above that, I do think that most people, including all parliamentarians, probably bar
one, believe that something should be done in relation to climate change, and it's very important
that we do have that substantive debate. So, maybe people have just got to back off a bit and move
around the lie and the tax words and actually start to address some of the real issues that are
there, and obviously one of the issues that does concern a lot of people is where are we positioned
in relation to the rest of the world?

ALI MOORE: But you say, putting the cart before the horse; the question is how damaging has that
been? Because by putting out a plan, making an announcement before, as you said, your commission,
the commission that you sit on, has been unable to put out any sort of education campaign and
before there are any numbers, hasn't that just created a very large vacuum which the Opposition has
been only too happy to fill?

TONY WINDSOR: Oh, very much so, and that's the point, I think. So the Government has brought a bit
of this upon themselves, I think probably under pressure from the Greens, and I think that's
reflecting in the polls. That doesn't mean that it's insurrectible (sic).

I think people, as I said, do want the debate, but they want it a little bit more advanced than the
word lie and the word tax. I think they want to find out what could happen, what sort of
contribution we should be making, what are the advantages in regional Australia for instance in
terms of renewable energy?

What can be done in terms of soil carbon and some of the management strategies agriculturally that
are out there now? How could this relate to drought policy in country Australia, if in fact there
is some price on carbon and where sums of money are collected, could some of that money be put back
into drought-proofing or drought policy or soil science policies, technologies that sequester
carbon, and there's still some issues there, but they're the sorts of issues that I'll be looking
at, and particularly some of the opportunities for renewable energy.

Most of the renewable energy sources will have to almost by definition be based in the country. So,
it's not all downside to engaging in this debate, but I think the debate has to take place.

ALI MOORE: But indeed, you have to get people engaged, don't you? You're so far behind the eight
ball now in term of the rhetoric, the Newspoll headlines, the Newspoll, indeed, just the way the
politicians are reacting to each other. There doesn't seem to be any substance to the debate.

TONY WINDSOR: Well, I think that may well come. From my perspective it will, anyway. Whether the
others want to do it. And I think Australians have got to make up their mind too. Do they believe
that there is an issue? And this is part of the global question, I guess. If the globe - if
humanity doesn't believe there's an issue, we will probably take the risk and just move on and do
nothing.

Now, where I live in the New England and where I intend to die, hopefully not in the immediate
future, is one of the areas that could be adversely affected if the climate scientists are right.
So, I think we've got to really have a close look at firstly at the science, also at the economics
and our role in terms of the world.

I think Kevin Rudd probably made a mistake: he tried to lead and he was rejected. Maybe we've got
to assess and through the Productivity Commission and others what's going on in the rest of the
world and then plug in at that level. And people will argue whether that level's good enough or bad
enough, but I'll be basing my vote in the Parliament as well as on this committee on some of the
objectivity that's happening globally.

ALI MOORE: I want to ask you about what will get you over the line. But do you believe that the
Government can sell a price on carbon?

TONY WINDSOR: Well that remains to be seen. If they'd gone directly to an emissions trading scheme,
they wouldn't be having the argument about lying about a carbon tax. And that's the point I'm
making. We're really talking about two words here and there's been a significant reaction to it,
and I can understand that.

If they'd gone directly, or the framework had gone directly, to an emissions trading arrangement,
they may not have had the reaction. Because Kevin Rudd, etc., all went through the - and Greg
Combet went through the Emissions Trading Scheme, the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, without
this sort of outrage.

Abbott was on about the great, big, new tax on everything of course, but that's going to happen
with opportunistic politics whatever's done or whatever form occurs. We've see it in the
Murray-Darling, we're seeing in other areas as well. So, I don't think that's surprising. But there
has been a reaction to what the Prime Minister did say before the election: that there wouldn't be
a tax. Maybe they've got to revisit that.

ALI MOORE: Well, I was going to ask you: in terms of getting you over the line, because you've made
it very clear from the word go that at this point there is no tax and there may well be no tax. Is
your preferred option not to have a tax, to go straight to an ETS?

TONY WINDSOR: Well my preferred option is to get the information in first. And I think there's been
an error made here, that we've - the committee, some on the committee, the Greens and the
Government, have actually jumped the gun in terms of the process. The Climate Commission - Climate
Change Commission was supposed to go out and contact the community, discuss the issue with the
community, Ross Garnaut was to do similar things.

We've announced this framework and if you look at the words that the Prime Minister actually used
in the documents, there's a lot of ifs and coulds - the framework could do this or could do that or
could do something else. So, when I saw that document, I immediately put in the column beside the
word "option", I see what is out there now as being an option, not the only. And my vote and my
deliberations in terms of the committee itself will be based on the information that comes back
particularly from the Productivity Commission in relation to those implicit carbon prices
internationally.

ALI MOORE: What are the other options as you see them? And are you still prepared to walk away from
the entire process if nothing on the table suits you?

TONY WINDSOR: Oh, yes. Well I walked away last time. I don't have a problem doing that. Unless it's
a constructive arrangement. If it's just a sort of a piece of political puppetry, well, what's the
point? As I said - and I will be looking at the opportunities in terms of regional Australia - the
renewable, the agricultural, those sorts of things, the drought policy, some of the other issues
that are out there.

But I haven't ruled anything in or out because there isn't anything to rule in or out at the
moment. I believe that climate change is happening. I believe that if we can, we should try and do
something about it. But obviously that's got to fit within a global context and I want to see the
numbers, the way the science is actually going and how the Productivity Commission and others
report back the global circumstances.

ALI MOORE: So as you say, if we can, we should do something about it. In your mind, if the standard
of the scheme is not the standard you would like, nothing is better than something?

TONY WINDSOR: Well, I'd have to think of that closely at the time. But my vote isn't guaranteed on
any of this and won't be either until I see the detail. And I think most people should just breathe
in, let's have a reasoned debate about a substantive issue and then make a reasoned decision based
on what's happening locally and globally and what the advantages and disadvantages are, and whether
it be regionally or in terms of the various industries, let's make a decision then. And that's
exactly what I'll be doing.

ALI MOORE: Well again going back to the issue of scare campaigns and misinformation, you've said
that that's what's out there in the electorate. Given that, would a taxpayer-funded education
advertising campaign now be a valid response?

TONY WINDSOR: No. I think it'd make it worse. I think it'd be a silly thing for the Government to
engage on some sort of taxpayer-funded arrangement where there is no detail in terms of the scheme.
There's only a framework. And I think it has to be reiterated to the Australian people: this is a
framework, there is nothing in concrete.

I happen to be on that committee, I'm aware of how much information we've got and how much we
haven't got. I'm aware of the process we've embarked on. This framework that the Prime Minister and
the Greens were talking about last week or 10 or 12 days ago is nothing else but a framework, and
if you read the documentation, it talks about this could happen - if something else happened, could
happen, not would and will. So the words are there, the wriggle room's there to actually get back
to the substantive debate. And I'll be doing what I can to be involved in that debate, not walk
away from it.

ALI MOORE: Tony Windsor, you say there's plenty of wriggle room, but in the end if there is no tax,
would that not also mean there'd no Julia Gillard as prime minister? Hasn't she effectively staked
her prime ministership on getting a price on carbon?

TONY WINDSOR: Well everybody stakes their own futures on something. That's not my responsibility.
My responsibility is to look at this piece of legislation when in fact, if in fact it does become a
piece of legislation and determine my vote. I'm quite happy to be involved on the committee. And
there'll be agreements and disagreements in there. And I think we can see some of the issues in
terms of agriculture and regional issues coming through just in terms of the framework that's there
now. And there may well be some great advantages for some sort of process being developed now.

Whether that's a carbon tax or some other type of pricing arrangement or directly through to an
emissions trading scheme, or whether when we look at the rest of the world we see that very little
is happening, there may well be decisions made that, well, if they're not doing it, why were we? We
might as well be the lemmings like the rest of them and jump off the cliff. They're the sorts of
things that have got to come into the public debate and we don't know the answers to a lot of those
questions yet.

ALI MOORE: Tony Windsor in Tamworth, many thanks for talking to Lateline tonight.

TONY WINDSOR: Thanks, Ali.

Moran jury struggle to reach verdict

Moran jury struggle to reach verdict

Broadcast: 08/03/2011

Reporter:

The jury in the murder trial of Judy Moran has asked the court for more time to reach a unanimous
verdict.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The jury in the murder trial of Judy Moran will begin its seventh day of
deliberations tomorrow after asking the court for more time.

Earlier today, jurors indicated they were having trouble reaching a unanimous verdict, but the
judge urged them to return to their discussions with open minds.

Moran is accused of orchestrating the shooting murder of her brother-in-law Des Moran at an Ascot
Vale cafe two years ago.

Conservationists attack Shell over oil drill plans

Conservationists attack Shell over oil drill plans

Broadcast: 08/03/2011

Reporter: Minsi Chung

Petroleum giant Shell plans to drill for oil 50 kilometres from the national heritage listed
Ningaloo Reef.

Transcript

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Petroleum giant Shell is on a collision course with conservationists over a
plan to drill for oil 50 kilometres from Ningaloo Reef, a national heritage listed area.

The industry says it's safe, but critics argue it puts wildlife and irreplaceable coral reefs at
serious risk.

Minsi Chung reports from Perth.

MINSI CHUNG, REPORTER: Ningaloo Reef is recognised as one of the state's major tourism drawcards
and is on the waiting list for world heritage status. Now Shell wants federal environmental
approval to drill an exploration well. If it gets the go ahead, work could start as early as
September.

With the Montara well, fire and oil spill still fresh in the public mind, conservationists are
gearing up for a fight.

PAUL GAMBLIN, WWF: Some areas like this need to be fully protected and the Australian Government
needs to get serious about protecting our magnificent marine environment.

MINSI CHUNG: Shell says it's committed to protecting the area and it has strict environmental
management plans in place. The petroleum industry is also confident it can meet environmental
standards.

MARK MCCALLUM, APPEA DEPUTY CHIEF EXECUTIVE: The fact is the industry has operated in this region
for over 40 years and we've had actively-producing facilities that have not damaged the values of
Ningaloo.

MINSI CHUNG: But the environmental movement says a decision on Shell's application should wait
until a final report into the Montara incident is released.

PAUL GAMBLIN: The Federal Government should make sure that the system of regulations, the laws that
are apply to oil and gas activities, are fixed, are in place, based on the Montara experience.

MINSI CHUNG: The State Government will also have a say in whether drilling can go ahead.

KIM HAMES, ACTING PREMIER: We want to make sure that Ningaloo Reef as a system is protected and we
have concerns because of the oil spills that we've seen in parts of the world.

MINSI CHUNG: It's not clear when the Federal Government will make a decision on the Shell
application.

Minsi Chung, Lateline.

Now to the weather - rain at times in Melbourne and Canberra, Adelaide and Hobart, mostly fine but
a possible shower in Brisbane. Showers an a possible storm for Darwin, cloudy in Sydney, sunny in
Perth. all from us. If you would like to look back at tonight's interview with Tony Windsor or
review any of Lateline's stories or transcripts, you can visit our website ABC follow us on Twitter
and Facebook. Tony Jones will be here tomorrow, I will see you again on Friday. Goodnight.