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agree with forestry or not, like something or don't like it, this is one of the full stepping
stones going forward in Tasmania. I grew in Tasmania. I grew up in the Tamar Valley, I am fifth
generation Tamar Valley. If the pulp mill does pollute, I'd want it shut down tomorrow. That's
where I'm from.

The broader question, I am going to throw this to the panel. One of the questions made the point
the questions made the poin she has heard described as becoming a retirement village in a National
Park with young Tasmanians leaving in droves.


. Let's start with Garry and a quick from everyone on the panel.

Actually, there would be great potential in those two things.


. In an ageing population, there are many examples around the world where service industries have
replaced traditional manufacturing and created jobs. Anyone who has a parent in an aged care
facility, for example, will look number of people who are gainfully employed in that. That's a
possibility. National parks can be a huge jen of income for the State. The problem we have got,
no-one really, Greens, Labor or Liberal, has a strategy for where Tasmania has to go next.


. That's a good point to stop the comment. We have little time.

I disagree. We have. The Tasmanian wilderness world was the best thing that happened to Tasmania,
happened to Tasmania, it branded us as clean green and clever. Add that clever. Add that to the
tourism, the food and wine industry, the NBN, investment in education, education is one of our
biggest industries in Tasmania with the university. Add those together with renewable renewable
energy and we are starting to do great things in Tasmania but got to be consistent and in the right

Tasmania's got some real problems, we have got the lowest business confidence in 16 years. In the
last six months, over 3,400 people have lost lost their jobs on the north-west coast. We are
closing down schools. We are wanting to limit expenditure on hospitals. Yet the Federal and State
Governments overnight can come together and spend $280 million on closing down a sustainable,
wealth-generating and jobs rich industry

Why is it broke?

Because the Greens have been running a constant campaign and when people such as your $1.6 million
donor with a view to close it down, that is the sort of economic sabotage that this State cannot
put up with.

(APPLAUSE ). Isn't it amazing we are arguing about these things. We are talking about woodchips and
pulp. We can see the areas where the plantations are, that is the best farm land, vegetable growing
land in Australia. It is now full of these useless Eucalyptus trees.

Where are we going to get our wood from if we close down the native forestry? Will that mean
forestry? Will that mean more plantations are required.

You are doing are doing the job of the moderator. Finish your comment.

We have climate disruption taking place, right on the edge of the on the edge of the biggest
economic downturn and a lot of troubles ahead. We auto ought to get united together and protect and
support each protect and support each other.

I want to put in a economy because we have grown by 4.5% over the last 12 months which at a
national average of 3% economic growth shows we are in fact growing faster than the national
average. We have got private investment increasing. Building and construction industry on the rise.
We do have soft retail but so does the rest of the nation. Our unemployment rate is 5.6% which is
in historical terms a is in historical terms a very good rate. The last time the Liberals were in
power, it was around 10%, 11%. We actually have a lot to be proud of. We do have a strong, bright
ahead of us. In incorporating much of what Christine said, there is a direction that's there but it
incorporates traditional industries too. Yes, there is Yes, there is some transition that is
occurring but there is room for much more here in Tasmania.

There is room for many more questions but we don't have time. Please thank your panel, Melanie
Kerrison, Peter Cundall, Lara Giddings, Eric Abetz, Christine Milne and Garry Bailey. Thank you.


. A special thanks this week to the people of Hobart for the questions that generated the live ly
discussion. discussion. Give yourselves a quick round of applause.


. Next week on Q&A, public public on Q&A, public public public, Shadow Health Minister Peter
Dutton, the British editor of, Brendan O'Neill, Crikey founder Stephen Mayne, and the
Australian Industry Group's Heather Ridout. Thanks for Tonight - the asylum seeker swap a done

This is a ground-breaking agreement which is designed to smash the business model of people

This government is sending country where they may well face caning. This Program Is Captioned Live.

Good evening. Welcome to 'Lateline'. I'm Ali Moore. It's been months in the making, but the
agreement to send 800 asylum seekers return for 4,000 refugees has been signed. And while it's not
a party to the deal, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees will Refugees will have a
key role.

We've been working very closely with them and taking them step by step. UNHCR has been consulted
along the way and their feedback was very instrumental in shaping the final arrangement.

But the UNHCR says on the sensitive issue of unaccompanied minors, there's still no agreement on
how they can best protected.

We are still in discussions with the Australian Government about the pre-transfer arrangements and
our concern is our concern is that we make sure that there are proper vulnerability assessments,
that there is a proper best determination, best interest determination when it comes to minors.

The UNHCR's director of international protection Volker Turk and Immigration Minister Chris Bowen
join us shortly. First our First our other headlines. As Norway mourns the murder of 93 of its
citizens the accused killer appears in court to reveal his motives. And the new King Evans becomes
the first Australian to win the Tour de France.

Refugee deal with Malaysia finalised

Refugee deal with Malaysia finalised

Broadcast: 25/07/2011

Reporter: Tom Iggulden

The Government has signed a people-swap deal with Malaysia after three months of negotiation but
has failed to reassure human rights advocates.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: After almost three months of negotiation, the Government's finally signed its
asylum seeker swap deal with Malaysia.

Critics of the agreement say it's light on detail and they remain suspicious about the assurances
on human rights it contains.

And the Government's been forced into a backdown over the fate of the 500 asylum seekers who
arrived in Australia while the agreement was being negotiated.

Political correspondent Tom Iggulden reports from Canberra.

TOM IGGULDEN, REPORTER: Access denied. The Government wants to lock smugglers out of Australia.

And the Malaysia deal's a key part of ending what's become a major political headache.

JULIA GILLARD, PRIME MINISTER: This is a tough measure, but we have worked hard to ensure that
there are appropriate protections in place on human rights.

TOM IGGULDEN: Eight hundred asylum seekers are to be to transferred to Malaysia. Once there,
they'll be detained for a month and a half, before getting access to the right to work and basic
health and education services.

JULIA GILLARD: That means they will not be subject to any of the penalties imposed on illegal
entrants, this means they will not be arrested and they will not be caned.

TOM IGGULDEN: The Government says news of the Malaysia deal has already had an impact on people
smuggling networks and it's launching a worldwide information campaign to reinforce the point.

CHRIS BOWEN, IMMIGRATION MINISTER: This is a win for Malaysia, a win for Australia and a loss for
the people smugglers.

TOM IGGULDEN: Behind the scenes the Opposition agrees the Government's approach might work in the
long term, but arriving by boat himself today, Tony Abbott's accusing Julia Gillard of double

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: If the Howard Government had done something like this, every human
rights activist in the country would be in uproar, and now a Labor government which has previously
denounced as inhumane the kind of policies that the Howard Government put in place, is doing
something far, far more brutal.

TOM IGGULDEN: Suspicion remains across the political divide over the ability to follow through on
the human rights assurances contained in the deal.

SARAH HANSON-YOUNG, GREENS SENATOR: The detail should have been in the agreement. I think verbal
assurances mean nothing in this circumstance.

JULIA GILLARD: I'm not sharing the assumption that both nations to this agreement won't honour the
obligations that they freely entered into.

SCOTT MORRISSON, OPPOSITION IMMIGRATION SPOKESMAN: The human rights protections simply aren't
there. The UNHCR, I note, is not a signatory to this agreement.

TOM IGGULDEN: The UNHCR will join an oversight committee with representatives of both governments
to monitor the implementation of the deal. But asylum seeker advocates aren't convinced.

DAVID MANNE, REFUGEE AND IMMIGRATION LEGAL CENTRE: We know very little about what resources are
going to be dedicated to ensuring that this agreement is properly implemented in the context of a
country that has a very poor track record in relation to the treatment of refugees.

TOM IGGULDEN: The Prime Minister reiterated today there'll be no blanket exemptions for transferral
though there'll be special care provided for vulnerable people once they're in Malaysia.

DAVID MANNE: There remain really serious concerns about the fate of vulnerable people such as women
and children under this agreement.

TOM IGGULDEN: That aspect has many in Labor feeling uncomfortable with the deal. The Opposition
meanwhile accuses the Prime Minister of making policy on the run - a charge made all the more
credible by a backflip on the fate of 500 or so asylum seekers who've arrived in the three months
that it's taken to negotiate the deal with Malaysia.

First they were going to be processed offshore; now they'll be processed here after all.

SCOTT MORRISON: But they've been forced to back down, and having backed down, they should admit to
the Australia people that they misled them.

DAVID MANNE: It is high time that those cases be processed as soon as possible because every day is
another day of damage for those detained in those circumstances.

TOM IGGULDEN: And another day of potential damage for the Government.

Tom Iggulden, Lateline.

Cycling enthusiasts cheer Cadel's victory

Cycling enthusiasts cheer Cadel's victory

Broadcast: 25/07/2011

Reporter: Hamish Fitzsimmons

Cycling enthusiasts in Australia are hoping Cadel Evans's victory in the Tour de France will
elevate the sport's popularity to the level of rugby, cricket or the AFL.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: There are few sporting victories that captivate the entire nation, but Cadel
Evans's victory in the Tour de France has done just that.

It's a remarkable achievement for any cyclist, and local enthusiasts are hoping it will elevate the
sport's popularity to equal that of AFL, cricket or rugby.

Hamish Fitzsimmons reports.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS, REPORTER: On the Champs Elysees, a champion rode into history.

CADEL EVANS, CYCLIST: I think it was a fantastic experience for everyone involved and I couldn't be
happier than to be standing up right here in the middle here.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: Thousands of Australians made the trip to Paris to watch.

While on the other side of the world, residents of a small town on Victoria's west coast continued
their celebrations today.

PAUL NYKO, CYCLIST: I think everyone'll get on the Cadel bandwagon and be here to support him in a
big parade.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: Barwon Heads is more associated with surfing than cycling, but this is where
Tour de France champion Cadel Evans bases himself when in Australia, often riding with locals.

MICHAEL CHAREQISEZ, CYCLIST: He's always willing to say G'day and have a bit of a chat, and it kind
of feels like I suppose going for a walk down the park and having a kick of the ball with David

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: The enormity of the win is still sinking in for his family. They're all too
aware of the sacrifices he's made along the way, from mountain biker, to world road champion and
now Tour de France winner.

HELEN COCKS, CADEL EVANS'S MOTHER: Almost 20 years that he's been doing this, you know, with
mountain biking and, you know, he was sort of semi-professional at 15. And, you - to do that, it's
a really very demanding sport.

GWEN COCKS, CADEL EVANS'S GRANDMOTHER: It's so great for him, this - to achieve what you really
wanted to achieve for all those years, and here it is, and I've made it. And I can see why he was
so teary.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: Evans, who was born in the Northern Territory and grew up in New South Wales
and Victoria, is considered one of Australia's most enigmatic sports stars. He values his privacy
to the point where he's fallen out with peers and reporters, but he's also a generous donor to
charities, particularly the Free Tibet cause.

HELEN COCKS: He has a very strong social conscience. And I think he relishes that more than
newspapers and people saying he's wonderful and stuff like that. It's the opportunity to make a
difference to other people.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: Winning the Tour de France is considered cycling's greatest achievement, and
the local governing body hopes it will lift the profile of the sport.

KLAUS MUELLER, PRESIDENT, CYCLING AUSTRALIA: It's showcased to all of Australians what a fantastic
sport cycling is. It's the courage, the beauty, the determination, the stamina - all those things
just got highlighted in a most dramatic and beautiful way.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: After he sealed the win on Saturday, Cadel Evans paid tribute to his mentor and
trainer, the prominent anti-doping campaigner Dr Aldo Sassi who died last December.

Evans says Dr Sassi always believed he would win a grand tour.

CADEL EVANS: (Emotional and fighting back tears). For him today to see me now, you know, it would
be quite something.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: Like Aldo Sassi, Evans is strongly anti-doping in a sport often plagued by drug
scandals. His victory is also being hailed as a win for clean cycling.

KLAUS MUELLER: It is a reflection of the fact that you can achieve at the very highest level
without having to resort to cheating.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: While a public holiday to mark the historic win has been ruled out, the State
Government is looking at a number of options.

TED BAILLIEU, VICTORIAN PREMIER: Obviously this has got to be pretty special. I'm sure the birth
notices next week will have a few Cadels in it and a few Evans in it.

HAMISH FITZSIMMONS: It will be a few months yet before Cadel Evans returns to a hero's welcome.
He's not due back in Australia until the end of the year.

Hamish Fitzsimmons, Lateline.

Norwegian charged with twin attacks

Norwegian charged with twin attacks

Broadcast: 25/07/2011

Reporter: Philip Williams

Norwegian man Anders Behring Breivik is facing court charged with both the terror attacks which
killed 93 people in Norway.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The man suspected of killing at least 93 people in the Norway bombing and
shooting rampage has appeared in a closed court in Oslo.

Prosecutors say they'll ask to hold Anders Behring Breivik in detention for eight weeks as they
build their case.

Breivik has reportedly already confessed to the killings, but his lawyer says he denies criminal

Europe correspondent Philip Williams reports from the Norwegian capital.

PHILIP WILLIAMS, REPORTER: Even before Anders Behring Breivik entered the court, the final death
toll was still unclear. Because despite the intensive search for bodies in the waters around Utoeya
Island, there are still around four people unaccounted for, most likely shot or drowned as they
tried to swim away from the carnage.

More horrifying stories are emerging. Adrian Pracon was shot in the shoulder. Incredibly, this
grainy photo records that moment. With the bodies of his friends all around him, he pretended he
too was dead. But the killing went on.

ADRIAN PRACON, SURVIVOR: When people ran from him, he just walked after them. He didn't run. He
walked slowly approach because he thought that, "You may run, but you can't hide. I will find you,
I will kill you." And so he yelled that this is a day you're going to die.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: The sheer savagery of the attack has shocked the nation. People gathered at church
services across the country seeking the comfort of others for the crimes of just one.

LOCAL: It's awful what's happening.

LOCAL II: I think everybody is in shock.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: And this is what remains of the government building, the first target in central
Oslo. This was the working heart of Norway's administration.

where the prime minister's office is, where my office was. And to stand there and look at this
empty block, open, every window blown out - and I worked there only a few days ago, and now it's a
crime scene. There are dead bodies inside. Blood, horror.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: Hans Kristian Amundsen says despite losing all computers, files, everything, the
Government is still functioning. But as he stops and looks and reflects for the first time, as for
so many, it's just too much.

HANS KRISTIAN AMUNDSEN: I feel - it hit me - it hits me. (Getting emotional. Pauses). One shouldn't
stop. I think that's the answer. I'm sorry. (Getting emotional. Pauses). All these flowers, all
these lights, it's the engagement of Norwegian people. I'm sorry. (Getting emotional).

PHILIP WILLIAMS: There are makeshift shrines across the country. People just want a place they can
share the unbearable weight.

LOCAL III: We are just five million people and everybody knows each other, they have some relatives
and so on. So, it's so shocking that one of our own citizen could do things like this.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: More is being learnt of the world of Anders Behring Breivik. Smart, organised, it
appears he may have leased a farm years ago that enabled him to buy tonnes of fertiliser, often
used in bombs, without raising any suspicion. And he joined a gun club, which meant he could
legitimately own weapons. Again, no trail.

According to this psychologist who works with the Norwegian police, he shows all the signs of being
a rare type of psychopath who can cover his tracks.

RAGNHILD BJORNEBEKKE, VIOLENCE RESEARCHER: Well, the person has a kind of control over his
anti-social behaviour; he do anti-social things, but it's not detected. So it's not many on that
pathway, but it's some. And he may be one of these persons on this hidden pathway.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: Police believe this 1,500-page manifesto is Breivik's work, a diatribe against
Islam, railing at so-called "liberal" governments like his that had failed to protect against a
Muslim takeover.

This he hoped would spark a revolution and drive Muslims and immigrants from Europe.

EXCERPT FROM MANIFESTO (male voiceover): "Europe is being targeted for deliberate colonisation by
Muslim states, and with coordinated efforts aimed at our Islamisation and the elimination of our
freedoms. We are being subject to a foreign invasion, and aiding and abetting a foreign invasion in
any way constitutes treason."

PHILIP WILLIAMS: And a few prominent Australians rate a mention, including historian Keith

EXCERPT FROM MANIFESTO (male voiceover): "Australian writer Keith Windschuttle, a former Marxist,
is tired of that anti-Western slant that permeates academia: 'For the past three decades and more,
many of the leading opinion-makers in our universities, the media and the arts have regarded
Western culture as, at best, something to be ashamed of, or at worst, something to be opposed.'"

PHILIP WILLIAMS: And former prime minister John Howard and Sydney's Catholic Cardinal Pell are also

EXCERPT FROM MANIFESTO (male voiceover): "... and prime minister John Howard has repeatedly proven
to be one of the most sensible leaders in the Western world. George Cardinal Pell, Archbishop of
Sydney, tells of how September 11 was a wakeup call for him personally."

PHILIP WILLIAMS: If Breivik is convicted, the maximum sentence is just 21 years. He could be kept
longer if it's feared he was still a danger to society.

Already many in Norway say they hope the court hearing will not allow a platform for the views of a
man blamed for an atrocity this country will never forget.

Philip Williams, Lateline.

Holcroft inquest hears of misinterpreted ECG

Holcroft inquest hears of misinterpreted ECG

Broadcast: 25/07/2011


The coronial inquest into the death in custody of Mark Holcroft has heard he was at risk of a heart
attack and should have been in hospital at the time of his death.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: A coronial inquest has been told the death of a NSW inmate inside a prison
van was preventable.

Low security prisoner Mark Holcroft died of a heart attack while being transferred from Bathurst
Jail to Mannus Correctional Centre in 2009.

Emergency medicine specialist John Raftos told the inquest Mark Holcroft should have been sent to
hospital and operated on and should not have been travelling in a prison van.

A week before his death, Mr Holcroft had complained of chest pains and was examined by a prison

The court heard he was given two electrocardiograms, the second of which showed he was at risk of a
heart attack.

But according to Dr Raftos, the prison doctor misinterpreted the results.

The inquest continues tomorrow.

inquest continues tomorrow.

Immigration Minister Bowen joins Lateline

Immigration Minister Bowen joins Lateline

Broadcast: 25/07/2011

Reporter: Ali Moore

Immigration Minister Chris Bowen joins Lateline from Kuala Lumpur to discuss the asylum seeker
processing deal.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Here is a story about the deal to swap refugees and asylum seekers with

The Immigration Minister, Chris Bowen, joined me from Kuala Lumpur earlier this evening to discuss
the agreement.

Chris Bowen, thanks for joining us.

CHRIS BOWEN, IMMIGRATION MINISTER: Pleasure, Ali. Nice to be with you.

ALI MOORE: First off, just today the Government's changed its mind and announced that the around
500 asylum seekers who were in limbo on Christmas Island will in fact be processed here up until
this afternoon. You insisted that they'd be processed in a third country. What's changed?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well we've adjusted our position, and that was the appropriate and responsible thing
to do. That was an announcement the Prime Minister and I made on 7th May. And we made it clear then
that we're in discussions with Malaysia and Papua New Guinea and the Government's position had
changed, that people should not come to Australia based on the guarantee of being processed and
resettled in Australia.

Now the discussions with New Guinea have taken longer than might've been envisaged and Australia
has agreed with Malaysia that we need to send a nice, neat and clean message that the 800 people
who arrive after today will be people transferred to Malaysia. So, the only responsible thing to do
was to adjust that position and that is a responsible and prudent decision.

ALI MOORE: But did you really only get that information today? I mean, you've been aware for some
time that this deal with Malaysia wouldn't be retrospective, and indeed the political situation in
Papua New Guinea has also been well-known for some time?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, look, obviously - I think that was an important decision to make and it
reflected the Government's position. And I think it was an element in the reduction in the number
of boats arriving after that announcement and the substantial and appropriate decision to make, but
- and of course, I had been considering the various options and I discussed with the Prime Minister
and the Foreign Minister just shortly before I left for Kuala Lumpur the options and issued the
formal direction today to my department that people should be processed in Australia in that
cohort. It's simply the only responsible outcome for those people.

ALI MOORE: Do you acknowledge though that it's a rather big backflip given that the intention was
to talk tough to act as a deterrent?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, if you want to talk about deterrents, then the position is clear from the
signature today; it's a very substantial deterrent for people getting on the boat and coming to
Australia that Australia has entered into - not just a firm commitment, but a final arrangement
with Malaysia for the transfer of people back to Malaysia should they come to Australia by boat.
And I think that is a very substantial deterrent.

ALI MOORE: And what happens to that deterrent and that message that you're trying to send once
you've fill the 800 positions?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Ali, we've been focused on this arrangement, and I think your viewers would
understand that that has been taking my time and energy, finalising this arrangement and getting
the signature today. The minister for - my Malaysian counterpart, Mr Hishamuddin, has made it clear
he regards this as a pilot project, and if it works and is successful, then they will examine
potential extensions, and that is completely consistent with my point of view.

But let's just reflect on the arrangement that's been signed today. Let's let it operate. Let's see
what effect it has, and then obviously we'd have more to say, but obviously I've also said that we
would be happy to have discussions and arrangements with other countries in our region under the
regional framework at an appropriate time.

ALI MOORE: Well in terms of those health and welfare standards that Australia has pledged to pay
the costs of, it's going to be in accordance with the UNHCR's model of assistance in Malaysia. What
exactly does that mean? How many health care centres are there, how many hospitals are there, how
many education centres are there and what are the standards?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, they - for health, that means that people will have access to the UNHCR clinics.
It means they will have access to the Kuala Lumpur hospital, for example, and other hospitals in
the region for basic health care. It means that if there are other health needs, more substantial
health needs then IOM would consult with Australia about the appropriate way of dealing with those.
And it means that people could have some - some reassurance that their health care would be
appropriately dealt with.

In relation to education, there are existing UNHCR and IOM schools and arrangements in place. They
are - we codify - and many asylum seekers have access to those now, but we codify that every child
in this arrangement would have access to those arrangements.

ALI MOORE: So, how much is this going to cost? Because originally the package was priced at some
$292 million. The Prime Minister reaffirmed today that $76 million of that will be transfer
agreement costs, but if there's health, there's education, there's potential housing or other
special assistance for 800 asylum seekers, they could be there for many years. What's the budget?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, the budget is as we outline, and as you've just correctly identified - and
that's an allocation we made at the time and that remains the allocation. And of course we built
all those equations into the allocation. When we did that budget allocation, we had a pretty good
indication of the services that we'd be provided and we built those costs in.

ALI MOORE: Can you guarantee that it won't end up creeping up? I mean, some of those asylum seekers
in Malaysia have been there for many, many years.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, that's a four-year allocation, Ali. So that allocation for four years is the
allocation. We've said we would continue to fund appropriate services and support for people until
they're resettled out of Malaysia.

You're right: that may extend beyond the forward estimates, but there updates that will be provided
in the budget papers as we go based on the number of people yet to be resettled and the costs
experienced up until that date.

ALI MOORE: The agreement, "... will proceed on the basis that the UNHCR and the International
Organisation for Migration can fulfil the roles envisaged." Have they agreed to provide the
services, and if they haven't, will we be transferring any asylum seekers before everything is in

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes, they have agreed and we've been working very closely with them and taking them
step by step. UNHCR has been consulted along the way, and as I said before, their feedback was very
instrumental in shaping the final arrangement, and they've indicated that they will participate in
the processing of the 804,000 and on the implementation taskforce.

Similarly, the IOM - I met with the director general of the IOM, Bill Swing, when he was in
Australia and met with him again this morning, and we have been in discussions about their
involvement and they will be involved in implementing this arrangement.

ALI MOORE: What about unaccompanied minors who may be sent to Malaysia? If they arrive in
Australia, you're the legal guardian. Who would be the legal guardian if they were sent to

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, a couple of points about unaccompanied minors again, because it's an important
point and it's something which has been covered extensively.

You can have no blanket exemptions to transfers from Australia to Malaysia because that would send
completely the wrong signal. That would send the signal that if you put your children on a boat,
then they can get access to Australia and they can sponsor you, and I do fear we would see
boatloads of children coming to Australia and all the danger that that implies.

But what we have said, based on UNHCR feedback and it's the appropriate thing to do, is that we
would have appropriate pre-transfer arrangements in place where would assess the individual case of
each child, we would assess their needs, we would assess what is the best way of handling them ...

ALI MOORE: And who'd be their legal guardian?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well while they're in Australia, then they're under my legal guardianship and when
they're transferred to Malaysia, they would be dealt with under Malaysian law and they would be
handled - and the IOM and the UNHCR would have similar support and care responsibilities.

ALI MOORE: So under Malaysian law, who would have the legal guardianship?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, particularly heightened care and support by the UNHCR and the IOM. But I stress
the point that while they're under my guardianship, and/or the relevant minister of the day, then
we would have the pre-transfer guidelines ensuring that the best way of handling the future of that
individual child was taken into account.

ALI MOORE: I understand that. But if you do decide to send a child, an unaccompanied minor, who
would actually have legal guardianship? Would anyone under Malaysian law?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well under Malaysian law, and as reflected by this agreement, people transferred from
Australia to Malaysia would be exempt from the Immigration Act and therefore would be under the
care of the Malaysian government, and then through that process as they're released into the
community, receive the support and care of the UNHCR and the IOM with the assistance of Australia
and appropriate support would be in place for individuals.

ALI MOORE: But there's not the same arrangement as in this country, which as you acknowledged,
you're the legal guardian. Your equivalent in Malaysia would not become the legal guardian.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, that's right. I wouldn't be the legal guardian for people when they're in
Malaysia, and under Malaysian law, the Malaysian minister is not the legal guardian of UAMs, that's
quite right, but there'd be other appropriate support and care in place through the UNHCR and the

But, again, I need to make point that while there's no blanket exemptions, we would have quite
exhaustive a process for assessing the individual needs of each unaccompanied minor or person who,
may I say, claims to be an unaccompanied minor, because we do have people who say they're
unaccompanied minors when there might be evidence that they are actually older than that. That's
not to underestimate the needs of people who are under 18.

ALI MOORE: Is there an appeals process, is there a process to deal with complaints or concerns?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, a couple of points, Ali. Firstly for those who are transferred to Malaysia, the
UNHCR would process them in the normal way and consider their applications for asylum. And if they
are regarded as refugees, the UNHCR would then seek resettlement outcomes for them, as they do in
the normal course of events.

Secondly, in relation to the whole operation of this arrangement, we have an implementation
taskforce which consists of Australia, Malaysia, the UNHCR and the International Organisation for
Migration. And then we have an advisory taskforce as well, or an advisory committee, which consists
of those parties plus various non-government organisations who'll be asked if they'd like to join
to advise us on a day-to-day basis about the implementation arrangements.

ALI MOORE: And monitor? Will they have a monitoring role as well?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, of course there's an advisory group. They will have a role in receiving updates.
And I know how non-government organisations work. They'll be out there monitoring of their own
volition, and Australia will be part of that implementation and monitoring task group as well.

ALI MOORE: Chris Bowen, many thanks for talking to Lateline tonight from Malaysia.

CHRIS BOWEN: Nice talking to you, Ali. Good on you.

UNHCR's Turk joins Lateline

UNHCR's Turk joins Lateline

Broadcast: 25/07/2011

Reporter: Ali Moore

Volker Turk is the United Nations refugee agency's director of International Protection.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Just a short time ago I was joined from Geneva by the UNHCR's director of
International Protection, Volker Turk.

Volker Turk, welcome to Lateline.


ALI MOORE: The UNHCR is not a signatory to this agreement, but you will be involved in its
implementation on the ground in Malaysia. Does that amount to full UNHCR endorsement?

VOLKER TURK: Well it is an arrangement between two governments. It's a bilateral arrangement
between the government of Malaysia and the Government of Australia, and UNHCR is, as you said, not
a party to this agreement, nor is it going to sign or has signed the agreement.

We are implicated because we have a very particular operational role in Malaysia given the fact
that we conduct the refugee status determination process, the registration process and are actively
engaged with the refugee communities, with the various refugee communities in Malaysia in close
collaboration with the Government.

ALI MOORE: But I guess the mere fact that as the Australian minister points out, the entire deal is
only going ahead on the basis that yourselves and also the International Organisation for Migration
can fulfil the roles envisaged, does that imply that if you're happy to fulfil those roles - that's
welfare and help with things like housing and education and health, that you in fact support this

VOLKER TURK: You see, we are not in a position to endorse it or otherwise because we haven't signed
the arrangement. However, we have been consulted by both governments on a number of issues in
relation to the actual text of the arrangement and its operational guidance and we have made our
views quite well-known in the sense that we needed to see fundamental protection safeguards being
put in place in the arrangement.

Obviously now, the critical test will lie in its implementation and we are going to remain engaged
in that phase to ensure that the concerns and that the various issues of the protection safeguards
are properly put in place.

ALI MOORE: Are you comfortable with those protections as they're outlined in the agreement?

VOLKER TURK: We have insisted that the arrangement needs to have proper protection safeguards in
the sense of protection of - against (inaudible), which is included in the arrangement.

We have made sure that the arrangement allows lawful stay in Malaysia until such time that a
durable solution is found. Again, these are guarantees that are mentioned in the arrangement.

We have also had discussions with both governments about the need to ensure that children have
access to education, that there is possibilities for self-reliance, that people have access - the
transferees have access to health care. And all of these various issues are enshrined in the
agreement and we just now have to ensure that the arrangement is properly implemented.

ALI MOORE: Well as you say, I suppose the proof will be in the implementation, and under the
agreement you are going to be providing health and education services together with the
International Organisation for Migration. You've spent some time in Malaysia. What's the situation
on the ground now? How adequate are current facilities, health facilities, education facilities to
handle another 800 people?

VOLKER TURK: Well, Malaysia at the moment has about 94,000 refugees and asylum seekers. UNHCR has
been actively engaged operationally with these refugee communities and over time we have seen quite
some progress, both in terms of access to health care, in terms of UNHCR being able to allow for
community education, but also in terms of a toleration that is exercised in relation to asylum
seekers and refugees.

Obviously it's not without problems. But given the fact that in this arrangement in relation to 800
transferees now makes it very clear what the standard is, we hope that this will provide an entry
point into a further enhancing of the protection situation in Malaysia.

ALI MOORE: But are you in a position to provide those facilities now? I mean, are there the health
facilities, the medical centres, the schools there now, ready to be used?

VOLKER TURK: We have, together with non-governmental organisations, with, for instance, mobile
clinics that are being arranged with a number of partners - we have these various services covered.
Obviously, and as the arrangement foresees, there will need to be further improvement of that to
ensure that 800 more people, if that were the case, would actually be covered by this.

I should say in this context that we - the refugee population also benefits in the sense that
Australia has offered 4,000 resettlement places, which is a significant increase on the part of
Australia to ensure that resettlement is becoming a viable solution for many more people than -
that was done in the past.

ALI MOORE: Asylum seekers sent from Australia will be able to work, and as we've discussed they'll
have access to education and health. Does that effectively create a two-tiered - two classes of
asylum seeker?

VOLKER TURK: Well, at the moment, the refugee population, the asylum seeker population in Malaysia
benefits from a number of informal arrangements. The government - the Malaysian government
announced in June a broader program of regularisation for irregular migrants.

We are currently in discussions with the Malaysian government about the possibilities to include
refugees and asylum seekers in this program. I can't - we can't yet say whether we will be
successful in that regard, but we hope that the arrangement will provide an important entry point
in these discussions.

ALI MOORE: What about the treatment of unaccompanied minors under this agreement? The Australian
minister's made it very clear that they will be dealt with on an individual basis, there'll be
pre-transfer assessments. Are you comfortable that any unaccompanied minors who are sent to
Malaysia will have adequate protection?

VOLKER TURK: We are still in discussions with the Australian government about the pre-transfer
arrangements, and our concern is that we make sure that there are proper vulnerability assessments,
that there is a proper best determination - best-interest determination when it comes to minors and
also that family links are being looked at when pre-transfer arrangements, pre-transfer assessments
are being conducted.

These discussions haven't yet been concluded, but we hope very much that our concerns are going to
be taken into account in the finalisation of these pre-transfer arrangements.

ALI MOORE: At the same time though, this agreement says that arrivals in Australia will be
transferred to Malaysia within 72 hours. That's not a great deal of time for an assessment?

VOLKER TURK: It is indeed - depending on the individual case, it may well take longer, and this is,
for instance, one of the points that we are in discussions about with the Australian Government to
ensure that, depending on the case, that indeed we ensure that adequate time is put forward to
conduct vulnerability and protection assessments in these various cases.

ALI MOORE: So have you presented the Australian Government with a specific list of what you'd like
to see and what sort of a hearing have you got?

VOLKER TURK: Well we have been in discussions with the Australian Government about this and we - at
the moment I can say that we are confident that our concerns will be taken into account. And of
course we have to see how it's being implemented and we have to see it's going to be - how these
pre-transfer arrangements are being finalised.

ALI MOORE: This of course brings me to the question: what happens if your concerns are not taken
into account? What happens if there's a problem with this agreement, are you comfortable with the
monitoring arrangements? Will the UNHCR be too close to the agreement to actually provide any
effective monitoring?

VOLKER TURK: Well, obviously it's very clear in that we have said all along that the critical test
of this arrangement lies in its implementation. And we will monitor very carefully how this
arrangement is being implemented, both when it comes to the pre-transfer assessments, but also at
the other end in Malaysia how these transferees are going to be dealt with.

So, we will be very closely monitoring this from our protection perspective, from a human rights
perspective, and we will - as we always do in such instances, we will make sure that if there are
concerns, that these concerns will be communicated to the various - to both governments and to
ensure that we can ensure corrective action.

ALI MOORE: And if there's not corrective action, what are the options available to the UNHCR?

VOLKER TURK: Well if there that's no corrective action, we will have to see how we can continue to
remain engaged. But we are confident that if - as long as we remain engaged, we will be able to
overcome these difficulties.

ALI MOORE: Volker Turk, many thanks for talking to Lateline tonight.

VOLKER TURK: Thank you.

'Lateline' tonight.

Thank you.

Gillard stands by Tasmanian forestry agreement

Gillard stands by Tasmanian forestry agreement

Broadcast: 25/07/2011


Prime Minister Julia Gillard has insisted a $280 million forestry agreement signed with the
Tasmanian Premier must stand despite protests by the Greens.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The Prime Minister has set up a showdown with the Greens by insisting the
plan for a peace deal in Tasmania's forests be implemented as it stands.

The $280 million agreement signed with the Tasmanian Premier will protect a further 430,000
hectares of forest, but has been rejected by the Greens.

The party has dismissed any chance of an end to the state's decades-old forest conflict unless
significantly more native forest is locked up.

BOB BROWN, GREENS LEADER: The forest agreement can be fixed.

ALI MOORE: The Prime Minister is standing firm.

JULIA GILLARD, PRIME MINISTER: Others have got their views. Senator Brown's got his view. Mr McKim
may have his view, but we will implement the heads of agreement that was signed yesterday.

ALI MOORE: The Tasmanian Premier has admitted the forest peace agreement will collapse without the
Greens' support.

the forest peace agreement will collapse without the Greens' support. Now just time for the
weather. If you want to look back pat tonight's interviews with Chris Bowen and Volker Turk or
review any of our stories or transcripts you can transcripts you can visit our web site. You can
also follow us on Twitter and Facebook. I will will see you again tomorrow. Goodnight.

Closed Captions by CSI This Program Is Captioned Live.

Good evening. Welcome to Lateline Business. Fullerton. Tonight - staring at the ceiling. The US
deficit drama is heading towards a deadline den knewment.

We're borrowing 42 c borrowing 42 c on every dollar we spend. We have a 14.5 trillion national
debt. It is time to get serious about stopping the spending here in Washington DC.

Sign of the times. times. Mark McInnes overhauls Premier Retail, closing loss-making stores and
focusing on-line. And rethinking the office. And we're beanbags and an easy life.

There was a perceived increase in productivity by the work force of about 15%. And that was in
addition to savings that the tenant was able to generate and the way they they used the space. That
in itself was approximately itself was approximately $2 million per annum or $100 million over the

To the markets, where one set of debt worries have been replaced by another. As one debt problem is
temporarily put to bed in Europe, another nightmare arrives to keep policy awake at night. All eyes
are on the world's biggest economy, the United States, to see if the politicians can agree to lift
the $14.3 trillion debt ceiling and avoid a default. Asia which holds close to $3 trillion in US
Government debt, has more than a passing interest in the outcome but nobody's panicking just yet.
The debt ceiling must be lifted by August 2 to avoid a default, so the policy makers were out in in
force putting their case because the process will have to start soon.

Both leaders recognise they're running out of time. They need to get this process moving in the
House by Monday night. They need to have a framework that we know with complete confidence will
pass both Houses of Congress.

We're borrowing 42 we spend. We have a $14.5 trillion national debt. It's time to get serious about
stopping the spending here in Washington DC.

But President Obama wants Obama wants a deal that takes him beyond the next election in 2012.

There is a way we can avoid default and give certainty for a longer period than five months. The
markets of the world don't want to watch this show again in watch this show again in six months.



This show was enough to spookth markets throughout Asia and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke
has warned of catastrophe if the debt ceiling isn't raised. But some think the fed chief is putting
on his own show.

You have to treb that he has a lot of incentive to push the negotiators on both sides to do a deal.
That's why they're talking Armageddon, not because they genuinely they genuinely believed it would

But to reach an agreement would mean at the very least immediate cuts in government spending,
public servants going without pay cheques and another headwind for an already weak economy. So
rather than leading to a spike in interest rates, the opposite might the opposite might happen.

How that will spill over to Wall Street is more difficult to calculate. In circumstances where
growth is significantly weakening, where inflation is turning down, bond investors might decide
that US Treasuries are a good place to park their money and yields could surprisingly enough
actually come down.

But either way today's problem is expected to be short lived.

Roll forward a couple of months and you will see the US continuing to borrow at very low rates. You
will see the US dollar not too different from where it is today and you would have a deal in place.

You don't have any alternative investment tools.

The much bigger issue is one which will be seriously considered down the track, once the US economy