Note: Where available, the PDF/Word icon below is provided to view the complete and fully formatted document
Disclaimer: The Parliamentary Library does not warrant or accept liability for the accuracy or usefulness of the transcripts.These are copied directly from the broadcaster's website.
Lateline -

View in ParlViewView other Segments

Tonight - former British prime minister Gordon Brown accuses the Murdoch empire of using criminals
to obtain his private documents.

I don't know how all this happened but I do know one thing, that in two of these instances there is
absolute proof that News International was involved in hiring people to get this information and I
do know also that the that the people that they work with, because this is what really concerns me
most, are criminals, known criminals.

Good evening, welcome to Lateline, I'm Ali Moore. Day 2 today for the carbon tax sales campaign,
both sides of politics telling anyone who will listen theirs is the best plan. But the polls leave
no doubt about how big a battle Julia Gillard has on her hands. And even if the tax is implementd -
implemented and Australia meets it's 2020 emission reduction targets what will it mean for the
state of the planet? Right now if all governments around the world did what they'd say they'd do at
Copenhagen a number of key climate experts are warning the Earth would still be 4 degrees hotter at
the end of the century at a time when the population is forecast to hit 10 billion .

People think yes, I want to be better off a little bit, I want to keep my standard of living and so
on but shouldn't we also take into account future generations would like to lead dignity and I can
more or less guarantee you that a life in dignity for 10 billion people under a 4 degrees or more
scenario is impossible.

Our guest tonight is a key advise tor the German government Professor Han Jochim Schellenhuber and
we cross to London to speak to a big role in trying to get to the truth of the 'News of the World'
hacking scandal. The brother of Afghan Afghan President Hamid guard and the US condemns the

News Corp scandal threatens Sun, Sunday Times

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The phone-hacking scandal that claimed the News of the World is now
threatening to envelope The Sun and the Sunday Times, with former British prime minister Gordon
Brown accusing News International of using known criminals to access his personal information
including bank accounts, tax records and legal files.

A News International spokesman has said the company had noted Mr Brown's allegations, requesting
all information so that it can investigate the claim.

The ongoing revelations have stalled News International's bid for the pay-TV station BSkyB, with
the proposed deal sent back to the competition watchdog for a complete review.

Europe correspondent Philip Williams reports.

PHILIP WILLIAMS, REPORTER: Just when it appears the depths of this story have been plumbed, it gets
worse.

The former prime minister Gordon Brown is accusing News International and the Sunday Times of
employing criminals to dig dirt on a property purchase.

GORDON BROWN, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I think what happened pretty early on in government is
that the Sunday Times appear to have got access to my building society account; they got access to
my legal files.

There's some question marks about what happened to other files - documentation, tax and everything
else - but I'm shocked, I'm genuinely shocked to find that this happened because of the links with
criminals.

In two of these instances there is absolute proof that News International was involved in hiring
people to get this information, and I do know also that the people that they work with - because
this is what really concerns me most - are criminals, known criminals, criminals with records.

Criminals who sometimes have records of violence as well as records of fraud. People will rightly
say, "How can a reputable news organisation in this country run their affairs by using known
criminals to carry out much of the work?"

PHILIP WILLIAMS: But there was both anger and despair when The Sun newspaper revealed the Browns'
son, Fraser, had cystic fibrosis.

GORDON BROWN: They told me they had this story about Fraser's medical condition, and that they were
going to run this story.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: How did that affect you as a father?

GORDON BROWN: In tears. Your son is now going to be broadcast across the media; Sarah and I are
incredibly upset about it. We're thinking about his long-term future. We're thinking about our
family, but there's nothing that you can do about it; you're in public life and this story appears,
you don't know how it's appeared, I've not questioned how it appeared, I've not made any
allegations about how it appeared, I've not made any claims about how it appeared - but the fact is
it did appear, and it did appear in The Sun newspaper.

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: What Gordon Brown is talking about looks like yet another
example of an appalling invasion of privacy and the hacking of personal data, and my heart goes out
to Gordon and Sarah Brown, because to have your children's privacy invaded in that way - and I know
this myself, particularly when your child isn't well - is completely unacceptable and heart
breaking for the family concerned.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: News International has denied any wrongdoing, saying the information was legally
obtained.

But it follows other reports of News International papers involved in hacking - not just of phones
but of bank accounts, medical and property records. It all appears to be spiralling out of control.

ALISTAIR CAMPBELL, FORMER ADVISOR TO TONY BLAIR: It's been extraordinary to me to see the constant
confusion between strategy and tactics. The strategy surely, his strategy's big objective is to get
BSkyB.

The strategy should have been, from the world go, him - not the police, not the politicians - him,
get to the bottom of this, find out what's gone on, deal with everybody who is involved and make
sure they are then dealt with by the police.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: As then-prime minister Tony Blair's communication chief, Alistair Campbell was not
surprised to hear his name was also on the possible hacking list.

ALISTAIR CAMPBELL: I've been shown the papers that relate to me from Operation Wheating, and it's
certainly clear that my name is in there. The extent to which ... you see the problem with this
police investigation: all they've got is this guy Glenn Mulcaire's notes. So certainly, I've been
shown papers to suggest I was one of his targets.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: After the dramatic move to close the News of the World as penance for News
International, what happens now if other newspapers in that stable are found to have also behaved
atrociously?

Is it possible the same fate could befall those other publications, leaving just the Times, for the
moment at least, unsullied. The News Corp BSkyB takeover bid is effectively on-hold, referred to
the competition regulator. That gives all parties about six months of breathing space.

But it's not just the media in the dock. The policeman heading the first failed investigation,
which concluded there was nothing in the documents, appeared before a parliamentary committee a few
moments ago.

JOHN YATES, METROPOLITAN POLICE ASSISTANCE COMMISSIONER: But as far as I was concerned, from July
2005 and even July 2005-6: this affected two people. This affected a rogue reporter. That was what
we honestly believed to be the case.

Yes, if I have unwittingly - if I have unwittingly - misled this committee on the base of "I didn't
have the information at that time" then that is a matter of regret, of course it is.

PHILIP WILLIAMS: And assistant commissioner Yates revealed his phones were also hacked. By the end
of this sorry affair it may be easier to count the ones who weren't.

MP demands Murdoch face committee

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Joining us is Labour member of the British parliament, Tom Watson.

Tom Watson, welcome to the program.

TOM WATSON, BRITISH LABOUR MP: Hello.

ALI MOORE: I understand that, just in the last hour or so, you've in fact asked Rupert Murdoch,
James Murdoch,

Rebekah Brooks - all three to appear before a parliamentary media committee. Is that correct?

TOM WATSON: That's correct, yes.

ALI MOORE: Do you have any power to force them to appear?

TOM WATSON: Well, we've invited them next Tuesday. We'll be waiting for them to attend. Their
company has misled

parliament and betrayed their readers. They've left the UK in a fury, so I think they've got a lot
of questions to

answer, and they should do the decent thing and turn up.

ALI MOORE: In fact, you say James Murdoch should be suspended from office while police investigate.
Specifically, on

what evidence do you base that assertion?

TOM WATSON: James Murdoch authorised payments to a guy who ran a football association, Gordon
Taylor.

It was an astronomical sum, and it came with confidentiality clause. Essentially, he bought the
silence of a man who

had suffered a criminal wrongdoing by the company. I think that that's wrong and we need to get to
the bottom of it.

And as chief executive, Rebekah Brooks admitted to a parliamentary inquiry in 2004 that the company
had paid police

for information. She's got questions to answer as well which is why we want her there.

And Rupert Murdoch - he may be one of the most powerful media oligarchs on the planet - but people
working for him

hacked the phone of an abducted 13-year-old girl, and I think he owes her parents an apology.

ALI MOORE: Do you think this goes all the way to the top? Do you believe Rupert Murdoch knew what
was happening?

TOM WATSON: We don't know yet. He must have known that there was a toxic culture in the newsrooms
of at least one of

his papers. He knew that his papers ran a very aggressive, pugnacious operation, but they've tried
to cover up.

The company were criticised this morning by John Yates at a committee for basically helping to
thwart the police

investigation and misleading the original inquiry. So we're involved in what is essentially the
investigation of a

cover-up now, and Rupert Murdoch will have to answer for that.

ALI MOORE: You talk about one of his papers; of course we now know that The Sun and The Sunday
Times have been

implicated. How far do you think this goes, and is there any reason to believe that it necessarily
stops at the UK

border?

TOM WATSON: Well, I mean if I was a media regulator in any of the other countries - in your country
or in the United

States - I would be looking very closely at what's happened on Rupert Murdoch's watch now.

I'd be very concerned about other media institutions, and I think a lot of editors have got a lot
of soul-searching

to do tonight.

ALI MOORE: Of course, one of the big issues has been political access. Rupert Murdoch is in London
right now. Do you

have any sense of who he's meeting? Whether he is still getting access?

TOM WATSON: Well, the irony is that it used to be, until last week, politicians would queue around
the corner to

meet Rupert Murdoch. You can't find an MP in London who wants to meet him now, nor particularly
admits to it.

The one good that is already coming out of this is that in the UK we were over-familiar with each
other: the police,

the politicians, and newspaper proprietors. Just had an informal relationship which I think was
unhealthy for our

democracy.

ALI MOORE: I want to look at that relationship in a minute but with this call for these three to
appear before this

media committee, which they may or may not do, do you believe that if they don't, can you still get
to the bottom of

this? How confident are you in the processes that have already been put in place?

TOM WATSON: There's a number of other inquiries going on, and I'm pretty certain now that we'll get
to the truth.

If they don't attend next Tuesday though, having misled parliament, then I think the nation will
know that they're

just cowards and they have an obligation to come and explain themselves.

ALI MOORE: You've talked about politicians being terrified into silence, but clearly you haven't
been. You started

your battle to get the truth in 2006. Why? What prompted your interest?

TOM WATSON: I ended up ... I had a particularly bad time with the company, there were lots of
things going on and I

actually retired. I stood down as a minister to have a quiet life and got elected to our arts and
media committee,

and two days later the phone-hacking scandal broke and we were duty bound to do the inquiry.

So I inherited responsibility for this inquiry, and have spent two years trying to get to the
facts, and now finally

we're beginning to realise the depth of the criminality that took place.

ALI MOORE: But it also dates back, doesn't it, to when you signed a letter demanding Tony Blair
leave office?

TOM WATSON: Yes, I resigned in September 2006 asking for Tony Blair to stand down as the leader of
my party, and at

that time a News International journalist told me that Rebekah Brooks would pursue me for the rest
of my life, and

from that point on all the newspapers were fairly hostile to me.

ALI MOORE: It seems that both sides of politics - if we're looking at the relationship between
politicians and the

media - both sides are equally culpable?

TOM WATSON: Oh, I think so.

Ultimately, in the UK I think we've had a failure of political leadership. We cosied up to Rupert
Murdoch for

short-term political gain and in the ... and that was at the expense of our long-term health of our
democracy.

There's been a big wake-up call for senior politicians now, and I think we're recalibrating that
relationship and

perhaps there's lessons for politicians all over the world on that. If you have too much power in
the hands of big

media owners then these kind of things ... you have to guard against these kind of things.

ALI MOORE: It seems extraordinary though how far it went. In the latest reports, and this one is
from the chief

political commentator with the Daily Telegraph in London, Peter Oborne, he writes that, "I can even
disclose that

before the last election, Tony Blair rang Gordon Brown to try to persuade the Labour minister to
stop the Labour MP

Tom Watson raising the issue of phone hacking."

Did Gordon Brown try to warn you off?

TOM WATSON: He didn't try to warn me off. But I suspect that Gordon Brown knows he wouldn't have
been able to stop

me if he tried, and I can't confirm that story. I have been told by senior Party workers that
Rupert Murdoch phoned

Tony Blair to phone Gordon Brown, but I'm afraid I can't verify that.

ALI MOORE: But it does seem extraordinary, particularly with what we're now learning: that Gordon
Brown was himself

a target.

TOM WATSON: Yes, in fact the revelations that have really only breaking in the UK in the last day
about Gordon

Brown, I think are shocking and deeply sad for him and his family. He's had to carry a heavy load
personally and

politically in the last few years, and I feel very sorry for him.

ALI MOORE: Does it go past the politicians as well though, because Gordon Brown has said that when
he was prime

minister he wanted to set up a judicial inquiry, but senior officials blocked the plan. I mean, is
this cosiness

actually entrenched in the bureaucracy as well?

TOM WATSON: Yes, I think so. Sir Donald, the head of the civil service in the United Kingdom,
resisted requests from

Gordon Brown to conduct a judicial inquiry, and the police resisted it as well at the Home Office.

They said they didn't want to be directed by politicians to do this. There was an election looming
and I think the

civil service played it into the long grass.

ALI MOORE: Where do you think this is going to end? I mean, obviously Rupert Murdoch has a lot of
assets in the UK,

I'll ask you about BSkyB in a moment, but just looking at what he's got at the moment, where do you
think it's going

to end?

TOM WATSON: I think what we realise is that the Press Complaints Commission over here, our
regulator, is basically

hopeless, so I think it will spell the end of the PCC. We'll create our own ... we need to create a
self-regulatory

framework that works; that will give independent representation and oblige editors to put matters
right when they've

conducted wrongdoing.

ALI MOORE: So, in essence, News International can survive in its current structure without News of
the World?

TOM WATSON: They're the most damaged brand in Britain right now, so I don't know, and the problem
we've got is their

senior executives - nobody at the top - is accepting responsibility for what went on.

So I think it's damaging the other brands, and there's already consumer boycotts of The Sun
newspaper that are

scaling up in the country. So, I mean at the moment, it's a company in free fall.

They don't appear to have just accepted that the world has changed for them. They weren't used to
being held to

account by their readers and parliament, so the jury's out on that. There's definitely, you know
... their

commercial model is being threatened, I would say.

ALI MOORE: Can you see any way down the track that they will get full control of BSkyB?

TOM WATSON: I don't think they should. I think the one thing we've realised from this, is the
reason politicians

would not stand up to Rupert Murdoch and the police wouldn't conduct vigorous inquiries, is this
was a media

organisation that had too much power.

The old maxim that absolute power corrupts absolutely is perhaps what should be applied here. I
think we're going to

... in slower times policy makers will be talking about, "Well, did he just own too much of the
media landscape in

the UK?" And we might reach the conclusion that we've got to change the law to put that matter
right.

ALI MOORE: Well talk about brand damage, what about David Cameron? Of course, he's on the other
side of politics to

you, but given that all parties have really been part of this, does this damage David Cameron? Does
his relationship

with Andy Coulson change the game?

TONY WATSON: Well, former prime ministers carry the can for their relationship with Rupert Murdoch
as well, but I

think David Cameron is in particular trouble because he appointed a former editor of the News of
the World as his

director of communications.

And it appears that he was warned about his relationship with members of the criminal underworld,
and so there's

sort of all sorts of detailed questions that he's yet to answer, but that again will be dealt with
by parliament in

slower time, I suspect.

ALI MOORE: Tom Watson, many thanks for joining us, and certainly you're living in very interesting
times.

TOM WATSON: Thank you.

times.

Thank you.

President Karzai's brother assassinated at home

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The controversial brother of Afghan president Hamid Karzai has been
assassinated.

Ahmad Wali Karzai was shot dead at his home in the southern city of Kandahar.

He was a powerful and controversial figure in Afghan politics, and a strong supporter of the
president.

Afghanistan correspondent Sally Sara reports from Kabul.

SALLY SARA, REPORTER: Powerful and polarising, Ahmad Wali Karzai was not just the president's half
brother, he was one of the most influential leaders in southern Afghanistan.

Mr Karzai was shot dead at his home in the city of Kandahar. Security officials say the gunman was
one of his own bodyguards.

The Taliban have claimed responsibility for the assassination and hailed it as one of their biggest
achievements of the war.

Afghan president Hamid Karzai received the news of his half brother's killing just before holding a
press conference with his French counterpart, Nicolas Sarkozy.

HAMID KARZAI, AFGHAN PRESIDENT (VOICEOVER TRANSLATION): This is the life of the Afghan people. We
have all suffered from the same kind of pain, and our hope is that, God willing, there will be an
end to the pain and suffering of the Afghan people, and peace and security will be implemented in
our country so that no other family will have to go through the pain that we have all suffered.

SALLY SARA: Ahmad Wali Karzai was known simply by his initials AWK. His opponents said he was a
warlord and drug seller, but his supporters regarded him as highly connected and capable.

He was also an active ally of the US-led coalition.

Ahmad Wali Karzai delivered votes to his half brother. In return, he enjoyed the protection of the
president.

The assassination is the latest in a series of high-profile attacks in Kandahar.

The Taliban are warning of further violence across the country.

Refugee deal with Malaysia 'well advanced'

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The Gillard Government says negotiations with Malaysia on a deal to swap
asylum seekers with refugees are well advanced.

The ABC understands an agreement has been struck and just requires the formal signatures of the
Immigration Minister Chris Bowen and his Malaysian counterpart.

Eight hundred asylum seekers will be transferred to Malaysia and 4,000 registered refugees will be
resettled in Australia.

It's believed the asylum seekers to be sent to Malaysia won't include the 400 who have arrived on
Christmas Island since the plan was announced.

Gillard fights back on carbon tax

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: A day after Tony Abbott declared the coal industry "a goner" under the
Government's carbon tax, the coal mine he visited has been approached as part of a five billion
dollar takeover bid.

And there were other twists and turns in the Prime Minister's carbon campaign today, as Julia
Gillard tried to counter Tony Abbott's attempts to erode Labor's dwindling support base.

Political correspondent Tom Iggulden reports from Canberra.

TOM IGGULDEN, REPORTER: Day two and the going's already getting tough. The leaders have opened
themselves up for questions on the carbon tax, and they keep coming.

MAN: All the experts say it's going to happen sooner or later and it's better now than later. So
what's your ...

TOM IGGULDEN: And coming.

MAN II: So are you talking to different scientists than what Julia is.

TOM IGGULDEN: And coming.

MAN III: So, what, the carbon tax goes on everything we produce in Australia?

TONY ABBOTT: Yeah, yeah.

TOM IGGULDEN: Tony Abbott's predicting Labor will dump Julia Gillard before the carbon tax becomes
a reality.

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: I will be touring Labor-held seats constantly until this tax is
beaten, calling on Labor Members of Parliament to do the right thing by their electorates.

TOM IGGULDEN: The Opposition Leader's come out swinging since Sunday's carbon unveiling.

TONY ABBOTT: On the Government's own figures, coal is a goner.

TOM IGGULDEN: Now an American company's relaunched an improved $5 billion bid for the mine which
Tony Abbott visited yesterday.

JULIA GILLARD, PRIME MINISTER: And, saying there's no future for coal mining in this country and
there will be no jobs, well, he should retract that today.

TOM IGGULDEN: Today the Prime Minister visited a steel mill contradicting another Tony Abbott claim
from yesterday that she'd refuse to meet steel workers.

TONY ABBOTT: I tell you where she will be going: she will be going to university campuses.

TOM IGGULDEN: She's used the visit to wedge Mr Abbott, who's refused to support a compensation
package for the industry, to offset the carbon tax.

JULIA GILLARD: Well, surprisingly, Bob Brown has said the Greens will vote for it, but Tony Abbott
has said he won't. So after coming here and talking to you about job security, it's really Mr
Abbott who needs convincing.

TOM IGGULDEN: But apparently voters still need convincing about the carbon tax. The pressure's on
the Prime Minister. Polls out today confirm the Government's still sinking. The Prime Minister's
taking a hard headed approach to selling her compensation package.

NEIL MITCHELL, RADIO PRESENTER: Middle-income earners are in fact losing what you're giving them by
the increase of the tax rates.

JULIA GILLARD: That's completely untrue, Neil.

NEIL MITCHELL: Well, we've got independent modelling of it as well.

JULIA GILLARD: Neil, you cannot sit here and tell me you've got modelling that any Australian...

NEIL MITCHELL: I've got opinions from accountants, not from me.

JULIA GILLARD: Your opinion's wrong.

TOM IGGULDEN: Tonight the Prime Minister's 48-hour media marathon switched to target younger
voters.

JULIA GILLARD: I'm just a little bit concerned I'm now going to scare someone to death.

TOM IGGULDEN: With an appearance on the ABC's Triple J.

JULIA GILLARD: I'm just ringing up every household in Australia to talk to them about carbon
pricing.

TOM IGGULDEN: Another appearance on Channel 10 showed the Prime Minister can joke as well as argue.

ANDREW ROCHFORD, 7PM PROJECT: He's not behaving, is he?

TOM IGGULDEN: These are vital moves for a Prime Minister trying to reconnect with voters who have
deserted her in the opinion polls, though she's warned caucus not to expect an immediate rebound in
the Government's fortunes this week.

She will be hoping she will have at least built the foundations for one in the longer term.

A carbon price label is all-important: Schellnhuber

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Even if Australia and the rest of the world meet their stated targets to cut
emissions, will it be enough to save the planet?

Leading climate scientists meeting in Melbourne have been arguing their contention that, even if
every commitment made so far is honoured, the world will still be four degrees hotter by the end of
the century.

Joining us to discuss what that means is a director of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact
Research and a key adviser to the German government, Professor Hans Joachim Schellnhuber.

Hans Joachim Schellnhuber, welcome to Lateline.

Why are we talking about a world that's four degrees hotter by the end of the century? Wasn't the
agreed goal at both Copenhagen and also Cancun to limit the global warming to two degrees, and
isn't the world step-by-step taking action?

HANS JOACHIM SCHELLNHUBER, GERMAN GOVERNMENT CLIMATE CHANGE ADVISOR: It's true, that we have
political agreement among 194 countries that we should limit global warming to less than two
degrees; in general, not just till the end of the century but for all times, if you like.

Unfortunately, the political reality of climate diplomacy is telling us that we are on the wrong
track. Right now we are heading for a world which will warm up by three or four degrees by the end
of the century, but even worse is in store if you go beyond 2100.

We might have - on current course - to speak a warming of six to eight degrees by the year 2300 and
that would be a completely different world.

ALI MOORE: And are these projections based on governments and countries only doing what they've
said they will do now? Do they factor in new technologies? Do they factor in increased commitments?

HANS JOACHIM SCHELLNHUBER: No, actually with the business-as-usual scenario, including the pledges
made by various countries after Copenhagen - actually after Cancun - so we have a number of
announcements from various countries where we will do something about climate policy.

For example, Germany has planned to reduce carbon emissions by 40 per cent by the year 2020 and
actually, compared to the 1990 level, so I understand that's much more than Australia's planning to
do.

But if you factor all these things in and you assume yes, there will be some type of innovation,
the thing you alluded to, we are still left with this tremendous amount of warming by the end of
the century and even worse beyond that.

ALI MOORE: So what does a four per cent hotter world or four degree hotter world look like?

HANS JOACHIM SCHELLNHUBER: I mean, people often say, well, I have fluctuations of temperatures
between say Queensland and Melbourne and whatever, much higher levels - why should we care about
it?

You have to compare it to body temperature. Our body temperature is about 37 degrees. If you
increase it by two degrees, 39, you have fever. If you have add four degrees, it is 41 - you are
dead, more or less.

And you have to think about the body temperature of our planet, which has been brought about
through many, many processes over many, many millions of years. So, disturbing our planet at such
an amount would, as I said before, create a different world, it would mean agriculture would have
to find completely new ways.

And, by the way, Australia is surrounded by oceans - four degrees sustained for a while would mean
at least seven or 10 metre sea level rise; probably it would melt down all the ice on this planet.
That accounts to 70 metres, seven oh, metres in the long term.

ALI MOORE: And populations, what sort of a population could that sort of world support?

HANS JOACHIM SCHELLNHUBER: That is a question I'm not really able to answer, but let me turn it
around. Assume we have 10 billion people on this planet by the year 2100, we cannot imagine that
under unbridled global warming they could all lead a decent life.

ALI MOORE: But they could all exist?

HANS JOACHIM SCHELLNHUBER: You can exist on almost nothing actually but, you know, in the end it's
about human dignity, I think, and with dignity it should be extended to future generations as well.

The problem is always people think - and I call it in a sense the tyranny of the now - people think
"Yes, I want to be better off a little bit, I want to keep my standard of living" and so on, but
shouldn't we also take into account the future generations also would like to lead a life in
dignity.

And I can more or less guarantee you that a life in dignity for 10 billion people under a four
degrees or more scenario is impossible.

ALI MOORE: So against that background, working on that sort of modelling, does Australia's target,
our target of a cut in emissions on 2000 levels of five per cent by 2020, does that make any
difference at all? Have any impact at all?

HANS JOACHIM SCHELLNHUBER: It doesn't make any difference at all when it comes to global emissions
for a while.

But you see, I come from a country where the same debate has been carried out for a while. After
Fukushima, the nuclear accident, Germany has now embarked on a radically changed energy policy
supported by 90 per cent of the population.

Compared to that I think a lot of fuss is made here in Australia about a, I think, moderate,
well-balanced package. So I was surprised to see in the headlines a very hot debate.

The thing really is that this package - however it is designed - for the first time it's creating a
price signal. It means CO2 comes with a price label, and that is all-important because it means it
will instigate innovation in order to produce cleaner, to consume cleaner - so it's the first step
on a long, long journey but if you don't make the first step you will never end at your goal.

In Germany we are a little bit further like that, but we are now looking for partners in our
journey, the world's clean energy, and Australia would be a first-rate partner, actually.

ALI MOORE: I guess time is of the essence. Do you feel, with what you know about various programs
around the world now and the commitments that are already on the table, do you feel that four
degrees is inevitable? Are you hopeful or optimistic that it can be averted?

HANS JOACHIM SCHELLNHUBER: I'm optimistic ... let me put it in different terms. I'm realistic, and
realistically if you do the calculations - I'm a physicist by training - if you look at all the
engineering options, we definitely can avoid four degrees, we can even halt to two degrees line.
I'm deeply convinced about that.

It's all a question about the politics; whether the right framework conditions are being put in
place. So I think that once you get an appetite for producing in a much smarter way - for example,
saving energy, saving money, less pollution and so on - then the process may self-accelerate
actually.

The French say "The appetite comes when you start eating", and it's precisely what we hope will
happen in Germany. It will happen in Australia. Actually the key word is innovation in the end. If
you have the right price signal, innovation will start in certain sectors, and it will infect later
on the entire economy.

ALI MOORE: At the same time though, if we look at trading schemes that we do have - for example, in
Europe, the European Union trading scheme - many argue that's actually not been very successful,
because while emissions have been reduced it's more to do with economic conditions than anything
else.

It hasn't really ... the scheme, hasn't really done anything to accelerate that reduction?

HANS JOACHIM SCHELLNHUBER: I mean, first of all, the scheme had teething problems, so to speak,
some perverse effect. It has been remedied. We're going into second phase and so on.

Let's see, I think the system is set up in a good way, but I think, again, let me come back to
Germany. We have come out of the economic crisis in a splendid way, really. We have growth rate of
four per cent, something unheard of before.

We have almost full employment and so on, second largest exporter in the world and so on, and we're
still on our pledge of 40 per cent reduction of emissions by 2020.

Quite to the contrary, a number of green jobs have been created, companies like Siemens and so on.
We are thriving. We believe that our economic competitiveness will increase through reducing
pollution.

So we see ourselves as the first member in a fitness club for the 21st century.

ALI MOORE: A final quick question because we're out of time, but is there a point of no return
here?

HANS JOACHIM SCHELLNHUBER: It is a critical decade. Not for physical reasons so much, but we can
calculate if we want to halt the two degrees line.

Beyond that, a number of very unpleasant ecological effects kick in. Then we have to reach globally
the peak of emissions, CO2 and so on, before 2020. Later on we could still clean up the atmosphere,
things like that, but it would come at dramatic costs. So if we are able to turn the tide before
2020 we will be all better off.

ALI MOORE: Han Joachim Schellnhuber, many thanks for joining us tonight and giving us your
analysis.

HANS JOACHIM SCHELLNHUBER: You're welcome.

Syria's president has lost his legitimacy: Clinton

ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The Syrian Government has accused the United States of inciting violence
after the US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, said president Bashar al Assad had lost
legitimacy.

Mrs Clinton's comment came in response to an attack on the American Embassy in Damascus.

A group of pro-government protestors scaled the building, breaking windows and unveiling the Syrian
flag.

US Marines pushed them back but they then turned on the ambassador's residence. The White House
says Syria failed to adequately protect the site.

HILARY CLINTON, US SECRETARY OF STATE: We demand that they meet their international
responsibilities immediately to protect all diplomats and the property of all countries. The Assad
regime will not succeed in deflecting the world's attention from the real story unfolding in Syria.

ALI MOORE: The French embassy was also damaged. The attacks come three days after the French and
American ambassadors visited the besieged city of Hama to support pro-democracy protests.

Well now to the weather: And that's all from us. If you'd like to look back at tonight's
interviewed with Han Jochim Schellenhuber and Watson or review any of Lateline's stories or
transcripts you can visit our website. You can also follow us on Twitter and Facebook. Tony Jones
will be here tomorrow.