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Lateline -

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Tonight - the carbon tax campaign heats up.

We say yes to a price on pollution has been supported by more than 140 different people from all
walks of life here in Australia.

It's fundamentally important to respond appropriately to climate change. It's a price on carbon in
the most effective way possible.

You do not give special weight to people who live half the year in Hollywood where there is no
carbon tax, you do not special weight even to special weight even to former leaders of the Liberal
Party. You give weight to the voice of the Australian people.

This Program Is Captioned Live.

Good evening. Welcome to 'Lateline'. The multiparty committee on climate change spent the weekend
locked in meetings trying to find agreement on some of the key details of the carbon tax from price
to compensation and incentives. With the clock ticking on the government's desired deadline of July
for the plan to be finalised, the government, the Greens and independents Rob Oakeshott and Tony
Windsor have their work cut out. Or do they? Tony Windsor says in the end, whatever happens in the
committee, the government well prevail with its legislation on the floor of the Parliament.

Anything can happen in politics. And obviously even if there's some degree of agreement towards the
end of the month as to a the month as to a structure, then there's the legislative phase and then
there is a vote in Parliament and different people can cross the floor. So just because something
or not I don't think it will stop the government from introducing what it would like to do.

Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott join us later from Canberra. First our headlines N an exclusive
interview, his first since 2007, the former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra rules out any
plan to become Prime Minister again. Defence to review 1,500 security clearances due to fears
information may have information may have been fabricated and Australia's security compromised.

Celebrity support for carbon tax draws criticism

Celebrity support for carbon tax draws criticism

Broadcast: 30/05/2011

Reporter: Tom Iggulden

Actress Cate Blanchett has been criticised for her appearance in an advertisement promoting the
Federal Government's proposed carbon tax.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The Government's edging closer to announcing details of the carbon tax and
the pressure's been intensified on both sides of the debate. The Prime Minister has a celebrity
backer on her side, but Tony Abbott says he's got working families on his.

Political correspondent Tom Iggulden reports from Canberra.

TOM IGGULDEN, REPORTER: Girl power Gillard-style.

At a Sydney girl's school, a song urged the Prime Minister onward.

The encouragement was returned, the Prime Minister seeing something of herself in one student.

STUDENT: She said I have great hair colour!

TOM IGGULDEN: The Prime Minister was also seeing green, trying to spread her climate change message
wider through the launch of a female-friendly carbon campaign.

JULIA GILLARD, PRIME MINISTER: This is one million women coming together to say that they will cut
pollution carbon in their own lives.

TOM IGGULDEN: And one of them's Cate Blanchett, who's been part of a separate TV campaign backing
the carbon tax. She's drawn criticism for getting involved in politics. Not surprisingly, the Prime
minister's fine with it.

JULIA GILLARD: Now Cate Blanchett has had her voice heard on climate change. That's appropriate.

TOM IGGULDEN: Cate Blanchett's fallen silent since the campaign began, but other well-known faces
have jumped in on her behalf.

MICHAEL CATON, ACTOR: Cate has had solar panels on her house for years. She's just done the Sydney
Theatre Company to try to make it carbon neutral. So it's obviously something she really believes
in. So how can you say to her, "Oh, you can't have an opinion on this, you're a Hollywood star"?

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: People who live in eco-mansions have a right to be heard. They
really do. People who are worth $53 million have a right to be heard, but their voice should not be
heard ahead of the voice of the ordinary working people of this country.

TOM IGGULDEN: But there was another voice today, a former Liberal leader signing on to a petition
backing the carbon tax and siding with Labor's assessment of Tony Abbott.

JOHN HEWSON, FORMER LIBERAL LEADER: Tony is master of the negative. He's found a niche in the
political debate. Unfortunately the debate so far has just been concentrated on the 24-hour media
cycle, and he's winning it.

TOM IGGULDEN: And the Prime Minister was listening intently to the man who was once Tony Abbott's

JULIA GILLARD: His conduct in this Parliament in the first 30 seconds of Question Time justifies
John Hewson's description of him as the master of the negative.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, INFRASTRUCTURE MINISTER: We know now today that this leader of the Opposition is
the only Liberal leader who's still alive who doesn't support a price on carbon.

TOM IGGULDEN: But Tony Abbott is impervious to such criticism.

He's continuing his tour of factory floors to warn of a tax he says will costs jobs and drive up
the cost of living.

And if the Government has its ducks lined up in support of the tax, ...

???: I welcome this opportunity to speak to - for those that have no tongues

TOM IGGULDEN: ... the Opposition's fellow travellers are also out in force.

JOCK LAURIE, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL FARMERS' FEDERATION: We've just had a press conference here
telling Australia why they need to be part of it. And I'm going to stand here and tell you why our
industry is going to get well and truly shafted.

TOM IGGULDEN: The National Farmers' Federation has economic modelling showing that WA wheat farmers
will be hardest-hit by the carbon tax. The WA wheat belt, meanwhile, has been identified by the
Climate Change Department as one of the areas to be hardest-hit by climate change.

Tom Iggulden, Lateline.

Senior scientologist arrested over lie claims

Senior scientologist arrested over lie claims

Broadcast: 30/05/2011

Reporter: Steve Cannane

Senior scientology figure Jan Eastgate has been arrested in Sydney over allegations she told a
young girl to lie about her sexual abuse.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: One of the Church of Scientology's most senior figures globally has been
arrested and charged in Sydney.

Jan Eastgate has been charged with perverting the course of justice.

The charges relate to allegations she coached an 11-year-old girl to lie to police and Community
Services about her sexual abuse. Those allegations were first aired on Lateline last year.

Steve Cannane reports.

STEVE CANNANE, REPORTER: Jan Eastgate is one of the most senior figures in the Church of
Scientology. She's the international president of the Citizens' Commission on Human Rights, an
organisation that campaigns against psychiatry and was founded by the Church of Scientology.

In 1988, she was awarded the Freedom Medal for promoting human rights.

Now she is on bail in Sydney, charged with perverting the course of justice.

Police allege Jan Eastgate threatened and intimidated Carmen Rainer when she was 11 years old into
providing false statements to police about the sexual abuse she suffered from her stepfather.

Carmen Rainer outlined these allegations for the first time on Lateline last year.

CARMEN RAINER, FORMER SCIENTOLOGIST (May 2010): Just say no. That she just kept repeating that -
just you remember that you can't tell them - don't say yes because otherwise you will be taken away
from your parents and you'll never see your family again because DOCS will take me and my brother
away from my mum. And that I needed to just say no.

STEVE CANNANE: Carmen Rainer's story was backed up by her mother Phoebe.

PHOEBE RAINER, FORMER SCIENTOLOGIST (May 2010): Jan Eastgate coached both of us, actually, and she
was - she came to us with DOCS. They weren't called DOCS back then, but she came with us to the
interview and she basically told me what to say and Carmen what to say. And she also told Carmen to
lie to the police and I lied to the police as well because of that.

STEVE CANNANE: Carmell Underwood, who was at the time a senior figure in Scientology, says she
witnessed these events.

CARMEL UNDERWOOD, FORMER SCIENTOLOGIST (May 2010): I knew that Carmen was being coached on what to
say to the Department of Community Services and to the police. So I challenged them on that, and we
had a bit of an argument. And I was told it was none of my business and to get out of there. And I
didn't want to get out of there because I wanted to stop what was going on, but I was escorted out
of there.

STEVE CANNANE: Jan Eastgate declined to be interviewed at the time of these allegations first aired
on Lateline.

In an email to Lateline last year she described the allegations by Carmen and Phoebe Rainer as
egregiously false.

She did not respond to an email sent by Lateline tonight.

Jan Eastgate has been granted conditional bail and asked to surrender her passport. She is due to
appear in Downing Centre Court on June 16.

Steve Cannane, Lateline.

Safety review clears Lucas Heights reactor

Safety review clears Lucas Heights reactor

Broadcast: 30/05/2011


A safety review into Australia's only nuclear reactor has cleared the site of any safety breaches
but warns there should be better safety reporting.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: The first of a series of reviews into Australia's only nuclear facility has
found that while there have been safety incidents and concerns, there's been no breach of safety

The Federal Government ordered the review into current practices at the Lucas Heights reactor after
the workplace safety regulator Comcare criticised management for failing to report accidents.

The independent panel did not investigate individual incidents. While it didn't find management has
breached workplace safety laws, it said some staff members could be more open about reporting
safety problems.

I don't believe that there is a very substantive problem. However it is always of concern if you
have a small number of staff members who are not prepared to adopt a more modern safety culture
that would include a blame-free culture.

ALI MOORE: The whistleblower who raised the initial safety concerns about the nuclear facility has
called the report a whitewash. David Reid says the review's narrow terms of reference have meant
that serious problems have been glossed over.

DAVID REID, ANSTO WHISTLEBLOWER: If you do not take safety seriously and do a root cause analysis
of each accident, the accidents, they won't learn from them and they'll keep repeating the same
accidents, which has happened over and over again. You have the same few people having the same
accidents and the same people under-reporting or not reporting them.

ALI MOORE: A second report from the nuclear safety agency, ARPANSA, is due out later this week.

Defence to review security clearances

Defence to review security clearances

Broadcast: 30/05/2011


Allegations aired on Lateline last month that Defence Force workers were told to fabricate security
passes have forced a review of 1,500 security clearances.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Defence says it's reviewing about 1,500 security clearances after allegations
the vetting process has been compromised.

Earlier this month, three former Defence Security Authority workers told Lateline information for
security clearances was routinely fabricated to speed up the process and that the false information
had compromised national security.

The Defence Department told a Senate committee today that security applications for a range of
Defence personnel will now be re-checked.

STEPHEN MERCHANT, DEPT. OF DEFENCE: From the examination we've done of the packs that were touched
by the three contractors who appeared on the Lateline program, we estimate about 1,500 clearances
were touched by those contractors.

ALI MOORE: The inspector-general of Intelligence and Security is investigating the allegations and
is expected to complete an inquiry within about three months.

Thaksin denies sights set on Thai leadership

Thaksin denies sights set on Thai leadership

Broadcast: 30/05/2011

Reporter: Zoe Daniel

Exiled former Thai prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has spoken exclusively with Lateline and
denied he has plans to make a return as Thai PM.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: In an exclusive television interview with Lateline, former Thai prime
minister Thaksin Shinawatra has denied he's scheming to return to lead the country.

Instead he insists that he's fully behind his youngest sister, Yingluck, who's been installed to
lead the opposition in the landmark election on 3rd July.

Dr Thaksin says he hopes to return to Thailand before the end of this year, but his role will be to
help unify, not divide, the politically troubled country.

He gave his first interview for international television in a number of years to our south-east
Asia correspondent Zoe Daniel.

ZOE DANIEL, REPORTER: This is home for Thaksin Shinawatra. He's been back to Thailand only once
since he was ousted in a military coup almost five years ago. Now he's in self-imposed exile to
avoid a two-year jail term for a conflict of interest conviction that he claims was politically

In a rare television interview, we joined him at his luxury home in a gated community in Dubai.
Here, in between golf and his multi-million-dollar business empire, he's playing the role of remote
advisor to Thailand's main opposition party, Pheu Thai, now led by his sister ahead of a landmark
election in a month's time.

Thailand is still recovering from deadly anti-Government protests last year that left more than 90
people dead. The election represents a crossroads amid still-simmering anger about the ousting of
Thaksin and the subsequent banning of his political party.

He argues that only a fair political process can bring reconciliation. Yet he's a divisive figure,
loved by his largely working class supporters, hated by opponents who accuse him of corruption,
nepotism and lack of respect for the rule of law.

Dr Thaksin, welcome to the program.


ZOE DANIEL: How confident are you that the opposition will win the election?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: Well, according to the polls of many institutions, including our interim
report, we are confident that we are winning.

ZOE DANIEL: Are you confident that Pheu Thai will win outright and be able to govern?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: More likely, more likely we'll win outright.

ZOE DANIEL: The party's slogan is, in English, "Thaksin thinks, Pheu Thai acts". So are you in fact
the de facto opposition leader from outside the country?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: Well, I may influence in terms of the ideas and thinking because I have more
experience than others and then I just want to see them success. And I just share my experience as
former prime minister and the experience of running around the whole world.

ZOE DANIEL: So is it fair to say though that a vote for Pheu Thai is a vote for, if not you, your
policies, your attitudes?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: I think it's vote for policy. Most of the people now, it's vote for policy.

ZOE DANIEL: Your sister Yingluck is leading the party. How is she qualified to be leader?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: Well, you know, she 44 years old and she has master degree from US. And she
been working from a small offices until the CEO of SC, which is an organisation with more than
10,000 employees and about US$5 million turnover. She been passing through a lot of experiences
even though she is a lady, but the lady is good without political baggage, is good for leading

ZOE DANIEL: Yet she has no actual experience as a politician. To go from no political experience to
prime minister: that's a big jump.

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: Well, even myself, I don't have much experience in politics when I jump to
prime minister, and she been observe politics through my father as a former MP and through myself
as the prime minister and even though she work in the business part. And she represent me.

ZOE DANIEL: Well in fact you've been quoted as describing her as your clone. What do you mean by

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: Well, she my youngest sister. She work for me from the beginning. So I teach
her, I train her, the working habit style is nearly exactly like me.

ZOE DANIEL: But in describing her as a clone, are you saying that she's your puppet, that she's
doing what you tell her to do?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: No. No. No. Clone is mean that this same culture, the same background, the same
ideas, the same attitude, the same thinking.

ZOE DANIEL: One of the key planks of the Red Shirt campaign has been for democracy, obviously. How
is it democratic to appoint your sister to head the party and potentially become prime minister?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: No, no - we looking for the people that can lead the parties and then she is
one of the choice. Before her, we tried to recruit someone outside the parties, but they scare to
come because of the rumours about this band of parties again, you know, when you win, you will not
be able to form the government - that's the rumours keep spreading. So somebody else from the
outside feel scare to come in.

ZOE DANIEL: If there was one criticism during your prime ministership that too much of it was about
you, your businesses, your family, does this follow that train of thought?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: No, is not that true. They just allege. They trying to link this and that. We
are big family. Shinawatra alone: 170-some people. Even in - if I were to be able to put them
there, I don't put my sister at that time as the minister during my prime ministership. I didn't do
it. There is no Shinawatra in the same cabinet member, which I can do, but I don't do.

ZOE DANIEL: There's been some discussion in the Thai newspapers about whether you actually want her
to be prime minister. This has been a point of debate over the last few days. Can we get this
clear? Do you want her to be prime minister or not?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: Now, confirmed that I supporting her as a prime minister.

ZOE DANIEL: She's made it clear that an amnesty for those on political charges is a priority for
the opposition. Is that about you?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: Reconciliation is the priority, not the amnesty. Reconciliation: amnesty may be
part of it, but not all.

ZOE DANIEL: But one spin-off of that is that you would receive amnesty for the charges against you.
Is it partly about you and not about the reconciliation?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: No, it's not. I - please just don't care about me about that much.

ZOE DANIEL: But people do!

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: Let's bring back the unity for the country first. In the process, bring back
unity of the country. I'm part of that. Then, I might benefit of part of it, but I don't care much
because I'm quite settled outside. But I just want things to move forward. I want to see the
country unity. And now I do a lot of visit outside Thailand because I'm hyper-active. I cannot sit.
I don't do nothing. So I do a lot of minings in Africa. So I ...

ZOE DANIEL: You've got enough to do, huh?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: I got enough to do. And, you know, when my sister, youngest sister become prime
minister, why I want to go back as a prime minister again?

ZOE DANIEL: Well I don't know. I mean, you've said, have you not, that you will come back at the
end of the year. Is that right?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: Well, you know, that is my wish. I wish to pay respect and wish His Majesty on
his 84th birthday, seven cycle. That is very meaningful. But if I can do it. If not, it's fine.

ZOE DANIEL: And are you saying that you would like to come back just to visit, then, or you'd like
to come back permanently at the end of the year?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: Well, it depends on the situation in Thailand. If I can do business, I can best
from anywhere in the world, including here in Dubai especially. Which is I like it, it's centrally
located, people here are nice. But if I can go back to Thailand as just only visit or just
permanently is depend on the situation.

ZOE DANIEL: So if you came back permanently, what would you see your role being?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: I still want to be lecturers, that's my dream. Playing golf. Giving guidance
for my children to - for their business endeavour. That's what I really want to.

ZOE DANIEL: Is becoming prime minister again not on the table?

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: My youngest sister is already there, so no need for me to go back as a prime

ZOE DANIEL: Well, unless she made space for you later.

THAKSIN SHINAWATRA: No, no, even that, even that.

ZOE DANIEL: So never, never would you come back and be prime minister again?

Carbon tax timetable could slip

Carbon tax timetable could slip

Broadcast: 30/05/2011

Reporter: Ali Moore

Independent MPs Rob Oakeshott and Tony Windsor join Lateline to discuss the carbon tax and reveal
the timeline for finalising the tax could slip.


ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Key independents Rob Oakeshott and Tony Windsor have been locked in
discussions with the Government and the Greens in an attempt to reach agreement on the details of
the Government's proposed carbon tax.

For their view on where that process is up to, they joined us a short time ago from our Parliament
House studio.

Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott, welcome to Lateline.



ALI MOORE: If I can start by getting a sense of what your electorates are telling you about a
carbon tax, whether or not voters in your seats support a tax and what message they're giving you
about price and compensation, Rob Oakeshott?

ROB OAKESHOTT: Oh, there's certainly a lot of uncertainty and there's a want for information. I
think most people are now across the line on the science that we have had the Climate Commission on
the mid-north coast of New South Wales, for example. I think there is a want for more information
in regard to the science, and there is a growing reality that 149 out of 150 members of Parliament
now have a policy response to the science, and so we're now, I think, at both a community level and
a parliamentary level looking for the most strategic and efficient way to deliver on that policy
response. That's why people such as Tony and I have spent the weekend here trying to do that.

ALI MOORE: Do you believe though your electorate is if they're across the line on the science, are
they also across the line on a carbon tax as being the right response?

ROB OAKESHOTT: I think there's a want for information. You know, and I think it's really a
conversation that can't take place until we've got a final package. So there is a void of
information and there's a void for a reason and that is going back to the last Parliament, we tried
three times to get a policy across the line and failed. This time there is an attempt to try and
build some consensus within the Parliament between traditionally warring parties: the Labor Party,
the Greens and some independents. We're doing that in good faith and hopefully we can at the end of
this reach an agreement that is right for the country and right as a response to the science and as
a consequence have a really good conversation with communities.

ALI MOORE: Tony Windsor, what is your electorate telling you?

TONY WINDSOR: Well some concern in relation to the word tax. I think most people are across the
line, as Rob suggested, in terms of climate change, and being in the Murray-Darling system, which
could suffer, and being an agriculturally-based electorate, people are a little bit concerned if
the climate scientists happen to be right, what's going to happen in terms of their climate?

But I think Rob's right: there is a thirst for information. There's a need for a structure to be
put around it. Whether certain things are in or out and how various industries and processing
groups, etc. might be compensated or not compensated. So, the reaction will be very much based on
what they're reacting to rather than the word tax or the other word that's been bandied about, the

ALI MOORE: Well of course the multi-party Climate Change Committee, which you both sit on, has now
had seven months of negotiations and expert meetings and heard various bits of evidence. Rob
Oakeshott, how close are you to reaching some sort of agreement on the key issues?

ROB OAKESHOTT: Oh, we've still got a bit of a way to go. I know there's a timetable government's
working to. They want to clean this up by the end of June. We will be doing incredibly well to
achieve that. That's an ambitious target. This is a complex area of
science-meets-politics-meets-economy and there's a number of different things happening at a number
of different layers. It's not just as simply as pick a price and go for it, as nice as that would
be. So, everyone's hopeful of end of June, but it will be incredibly ambitious if we get there.

ALI MOORE: Tony Windsor, do you agree: could the timetable slip?

TONY WINDSOR: Well it could, and there's a number of options on the table and one is no tax at all.
And until we get all the information, the Productivity Commission information, there's a range of
international information to come in on implicit and explicit carbon prices, and a lot of that'll
be what I'll be basing a decision, not only in the way I participate within the committee, but how
I'd respond to any legislation that happened to come up to the Parliament as well. So, we've got a
while to go on this and I think we should do it. The weekend was very valuable - very valuable,
very constructive and instructive. And I think it's important that we actually try and get our
heads around the way in which some sort of market mechanism could work and within a global context.

ALI MOORE: You've talked about the global context in the Productivity Commission report, and indeed
that's been your point ever since this process began: that you wanted to understand what the rest
of the world is doing. Over the past seven months, haven't you got a fairly good idea, haven't you
had some of your questions addressed? Do you not have a sense of what the rest of the world is

TONY WINDSOR: I do, and there is significant movement in some parts of the world. But I think
something like the Productivity Commission will shed some more light particularly on the implicit
prices. There's a lot of policies around the world. There's something like 35 emissions trading
schemes, so obviously the world's doing something, the magnitude of which has got to be sort of put
into apples and apples. But then there's all these other policy mixes, like in the United States
for instance where there is an implicit price and that'll be difficult in some cases to work out.
But that's the sort of thing that I want to get an idea on. Because it not only relates to whether
the world's doing something and we should be part of that global effort, it also has some impact on
potential prices as well in Australia as related to the world.

ALI MOORE: So you're not convinced that from what you know so far, that the something the world is
doing is enough for Australia to also be doing something?

TONY WINDSOR: Well I want to receive all the information and then make a call on that, and it was
me that actually called for the Productivity Commission just after the election was over, before a
government was formed, that they actually be given the task of getting the information. So it'd be
very foolish of me to actually jump the gun now and say that $1.32 is the price based on
information I haven't even received.

ALI MOORE: Interesting number that you put there and not one that really is being talked about, I
guess. I mean, if we do look at price, Rob Oakeshott, business, if they argue for this at all,
they're talking $10 a tonne. The Greens seem to favour $40. The Government's sitting somewhere
between $20 and $30. Where are you?

ROB OAKESHOTT: I'm essentially on agreement. You know, I'm down to the pragmatic end of this
process of trying to steer something that's really important for this country through this
Parliament in a way that hasn't been able to be achieved in previous parliaments three times over.
So, certainly want to get something that works and has a clear structure of delivery over a long -
you know, over the long term, so that there is business certainty and predictability. But in the
end, I'm less concerned about the front end price and really focused on trying to get particularly
the Labor Party and the Greens to reach agreement on something they failed to do over particularly
the last five years. So if we can achieve that, I'm not that fussed as to what the particular
figure is.

ALI MOORE: Tony Windsor, what about you? I mean, of course we do have reports like the Deloitte
report which says that you really need $40 a tonne if you're going to inspire a move to cleaner
energy. Where do you sit on the pricing front?

TONY WINDSOR: Well all of those things will have to come into play, but obviously if you assume
that a global context is - that box is ticked, and I haven't ticked that box yet, but just assume
for the sake of the argument that it is: I'm interested in doing something that actually does
something, not something that does nothing. And ...

ALI MOORE: From the get-go?

TONY WINDSOR: Yes. Well, on a pathway at least. But it brings into play the relationship between a
price that achieves something and what are loosely called "complementary measures" that may well
assist. They might be slightly dearer than the price. I think everybody's agreed that pricing -
other than Tony Abbott of course - that pricing the problem is the way to go if you want to address
the problem. But complementary measures may also be important, and there may be some balance
between the price driving part of the equation and complementary measures or incentives driving the
other part.

ALI MOORE: But if you want to see something - a price that would drive change, can I put you in the
$20-to-$30 category?

TONY WINDSOR: Well you can put me above the $1.32.

(Laughs all round).

ALI MOORE: On the issue of, I guess - well price goes to the heart of it, but after this weekend's
meetings, Christine Milne, the Greens senator, said, "There's a long way to go before we get on the
same page." How is this being divided up in the committee, the multi-party committee? Is it very
much the Greens as a bloc versus the Government as a bloc versus the independents, Rob Oakeshott,
or is it something looser than that?

ROB OAKESHOTT: It's a lot looser than that. It's topic-by-topic. And I think everyone's at the
table in good faith. Everyone is wanting an outcome and negotiating based on the merits of
particular issues and what the various platforms that brought them to the table as part of the
consideration. So, you know, I don't think there's any particular blocs or factions in the meeting,
if that's what you're asking.

ALI MOORE: Not even along party lines?

ROB OAKESHOTT: Well, it's issue-by-issue, but everyone is getting some really good information, and
the point Tony made earlier about this weekend being really valuable, I think in the information
sense, I think it demonstrated to many of the members such as myself how complex some of the issues
facing government are. And I think everyone in good faith is just trying to now pick a path through
that response to that and makes sure we future-proof the economy as well trying to provide a
response to the environmental questions that have started all this.

ALI MOORE: Obviously it is issue-by-issue, Tony Windsor, if you agree with Rob Oakeshott, but I
wonder - I mean, let's pick an issue. Petrol: for you, out?

TONY WINDSOR: Well, we're currently debating that issue and I'd rather not start to pick bits and
pull bits apart, because it's the overall structure and how the combination of the all the bits of
the jigsaw actually work to achieve an objective of trying to get renewable energy on the front
foot and global emissions down. So, there are a whole range of structures that you can probably
achieve that with, but I don't want to get into the particular matters that we're talking about.

ALI MOORE: Well last time we spoke on this program, you said that you didn't think that the carbon
tax sales job was going very well. The Government had put the cart before the horse, if you like.
Of course we still don't have a price, but do you think the sales campaign's got any better?

TONY WINDSOR: I think it's improved in recent weeks. I don't think it's been a terribly good one
from the start in terms of the issue - and Tony Abbott's been very clever on this: you know, going
to the issue of tax, a simplified issue. This is a very complicated issue and it's a complicated
fix, but it's a serious issue about future generations. This isn't about our short-term political
careers and who wins the next election. It's much bigger than that. And in a global context, if we
can in fact see that the globe wants to do something, I think we're duty-bound as a population to
actually do our bit, and I just wish that the debate hadn't been about tax and lie and the reaction
and the marketing was in that context as well from the Government, that we'd actually got down to
what the substantive debate's been about.

ALI MOORE: In the sales campaign and on that front, Rob Oakeshott, what about celebrity
endorsements? Do you think they help or hinder?

ROB OAKESHOTT: I don't think they hinder, but I don't think anyone hangs their hat on them either.
Everyone is a voter in Australia, rich or poor, celebrity or not. So, if someone wants to
contribute to a campaign and put their head on telly and spruik their message, they're free to do
it, and I think a few actresses are welcome in this debate and - other than the usual voices that
we've heard over the last couple of months, which are on pretty clear divided and - lines and more
about the politics than the policy. So, hopefully in this particular situation, the Cate Blanchetts
and the Michael Catons will help a bit, but we'll just wait and see, and in the end that's up to
individuals to decide whether they want to hear a new voice or not.

ALI MOORE: We're almost out of time, but just finally, a question to both of you. Of course we're
now - the timetable may slip, as you suggested, Rob Oakeshott, but of course we're just a month off
when the Government does want the details to be announced. Is it fair to say that at this point,
while you are making progress, it is still possible that both of you could just walk away, Rob

ROB OAKESHOTT: Oh, I think it's possible that everyone around the table could walk away, but I
think there is good faith and a want to get an agreement around the table. So the desire is to get
a result. But, yeah, there's some really critical triggers that could see any number of options
happen and one of those is this all falls apart and we end up doing nothing. I hope that's not the
case and I hope I'm party of - part of a parliament that actually can deliver something
substantial, not only for the mid-north coast of New South Wales, but for Australia.

ALI MOORE: Tony Windsor?

TONY WINDSOR: Well anything can happen in politics, and obviously even if there's some degree of
agreement towards the end of the month as to a structure, then there's the legislative phase and
then there's a vote in the Parliament and different people can cross the floor. So, just because we
in fact do something or not, I don't think it'll stop the Government from introducing what it would
like to do and there could be some interesting things happen on the floor of the Parliament in
relation to where people actually sit or those who mightn't just get there for the vote.

ALI MOORE: How interesting. What, you're suggesting that some from the other side of the House, the
big other side of the House, the Coalition, might walk across?

TONY WINDSOR: Well, I know there's some people very concerned about this issue for the reasons that
I articulated earlier. They're looking forward 100 years, not two. And what that does to people's
consciences when it comes down to this issue, if we are - if we should act in the global context,
anything could happen, and it's a big issue for people to wrestle with. It's bigger than any
individual in the building.

ALI MOORE: Well, gentlemen, thank you very much for talking to us tonight and I have no doubt that
we will be speaking again before there's a resolution to this process. Many thanks.


TONY WINDSOR: Thanks, Ali.

Sockers's governing body is in more trouble tonight with its General Secretary confirming he sent a
private email saying Qatar bought the rights to stage the 2022 World Cup. FIFA Secretary-General
Jerome Gucahy says an email he spent to Jack Warner was published selected parts of it. The email
has made public by an angry warn er after he was banned by all football activity. Now to the
weather. That's all from us. If That's all from us. If you want to look back at tonight's
discussion with Rob Oakeshott and Tony Windsor of our stories or transcripts, visit our web site
and also follow us on Twitter and Facebook. Facebook. See you again tomorrow. tomorrow. Goodnight.