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Closed Captions by CSI ..

This Program Is Captioned

Good morning. Japanese authorities are struggling

are struggling to deal with a

possible nuclear crisis at a plant

north of Tokyo

north of Tokyo after an explosion at

the facility blew the roof off Fukushima

Fukushima nuclear power plant. There

injur are reports several workers were

injured in the blast, with local

media saying that at least three

people have been treated for

came radiation exposure. The explosion

came a day after

10,000 people remain unaccounted for 8.9-magnitude earthquake. Around

in the Japanese port town of Minami

Sanriku. Japan's public broadcaster

NHK says the 10,

NHK says the 10,000 missing people

make up more than half of the

population of roughly 17,000 in the

Pacific coast town. Local

are trying to find their whereabouts Pacific coast town. Local authorities

with the help of the defence forces.

In the Middle East, rebels fighting

to oust embattled Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi have retreated

overnight from the outskirts of the

oil town

to Gaddafi have retaken the key oil oil town of Ras Lanuf. Troops loyal port city

port city and refinery, and pushed

the front line eastwards. It comes after days of

including air attacks and shelling after days of fierce fighting,

between the two sides. And Prime

Minister Julia Gillard has arrived

back in Canberra in the early hours

of this morning after a week long

trip to the United States. She held

number of high-powered meetings trip to the United States. She held a

during the visit and addressed

during the visit and addressed a

joint sitting of Congress. Stay

joint sitting of Congress. Stay tuned

now for Insiders with Barrie Cassidy.

This Program is Captioned

Live

Good morning. Welcome to

'Insiders'. Where do you think the Prime Minister would rather be right now?? Washington getting another round of standing ovations at the US

Congress or back in Australia

where her party's primary vote hilt

hilt a record low of 30 per

cent. It was that home and away experience for Julia Gillard this week and the homecoming

easier because Kevin Rudd is

off on a frolic of his own. To

federal politics, the carbon

tax backlash has sent the Government's Government's support plunging

to a record low. (Sings) #

You say I'm missing with your head. Leaving Julia Gillard far

less popular than other ousted predecessor Kevin Rudd. Labor's

primary vote diving 6 points to a record low of 30 per

cent. That's the lowest primary

vote in that poll's history. As

the carbon tax debate delivers

the coalition lead. What's gone wrong? It two-party preferred

don't comment on polls. The won't surprise you when I say I won't surprise you

fact is that it is simply one opinion

opinion poll. They'll go up, they'll go down. These are disastrous figures. It's horrible. It's bad

policy. Pleased to meet

lie and I think the public are you. It's bad policy based on a

reacting to that. They've

worked out that they don't like

this Prime Minister. The government has brought a bit of this on themselves. I have to

say that from a distance at

outstanding least, she is doing an

outstanding job. President

Obama even said he was sure a

good chunk of the Australian

people were charmed by her. If

only he'd known. She now says

always expected Tony Abbott to run a ferocious run a ferocious scare campaign. I'm

I'm running a truth campaign against the carbon tax. The

Prime Minister's satisfaction

is in freefall. The last Prime

Minister to visit US, Kevin

Rudd, is again preferred over her as Labor leader. She was

also forced to deny suggestions

of a rift with her Foreign

Minister over Australia's

approach to the crisis in Libya. Kevin Rudd and I are

talking about exactly the same thing. No one quite knows at the moment who speaks for the the

Government on foreign policy

matters. Is it the Prime

Minister or Foreign Minister. He

He can run around the world 12

months of the year. It keeps him out of the road. It's

supposed to keep him out of

news. It never does. Which is

why... Mr Rudd's fate was

sealed when he shelved sealed when he shelved his plan

for an emissions trading

scheme. His credibility disappeared. Kevin Rudd tried

to leave, he made a mistake, and he was rejected. Labor feared because

is happening to Julia Gillard's credibility now. For Julia

Gillard, selling her carbon tax

will be the fight of her

political life. We've got communicate with people about

the fact that it is the big polluters that will be paying here. That's why I think they're they're going to run an ad campaign. From time to time we

advertise to get necessary

information to people. I think it would be a silly thing. I

think it would be an absolute

outrage. Tony Abbott says what

he thinks will help him out, of a splash. The Australian what he thinks will make a bit what

public will pay every day for this misguided policy. I know that the that the Australian people

ultimately be confident enough

to take this step of pricing

carbon. Everybody stakes their own futures on something.

We'll have a detailed look this morning at the Prime

will Michael Bowers in Talking Minister visit to the US,

Pictures. I love that picture of the standing of the standing ovation,

though. It is just a rose

amongst the thorns. Doesn't it

set off itself nicely against the stars and stripes It does.

It works plitty well. She's

colour coordinated her outfit

for the flag. Our morning guest

is the Treasurer Wayne Swan. We'll check out the Sunday

papers around the country. As

you would expect, all of the early pages are streeted to the

earthquake and the tsunami in

Japan. Andrew Bolt, as we'll

are focused on the potential

for a nuclear emergency. That's the most dominant

feature. It's a bit sad, isn't it. There's 10,000 people

missing in some cities and all we can worry about this

essentially a political symbol

in the debate. Nuclear power.

Look, the reactor in Russia was

hyped enormously. Garrett said

it killed 30,000 or 40,000

people. It killed in the end

50. Let's

to be any more deadly F it does

it will turn out to be

significant political... Have

significant political impact in our discussions too will nuclear nuclear power. You could go

of two ways. If there isn't a

serious situation emerging

here, it could demonstrate that

nuclear reactors can survive

the worst earthquake that Japan

has ever had. I suspect that

may well turn out to be the case.

case. Don't underestimate the ability of the green movement to beat it up. At this stage,

our leading nuclear expert in the the country, says that it is

lower... It is a low-level of

emergency of the Long Island disaster which ended up killing no one. With the Russian one for decades there were health problems with people. There were alleged health

problems. There was such a

cloud of secrecy about

information that was released, I

I don't think we ever really

knew the wider full extent. We

do. The UN and a number of do. The UN and a number of

bodies and Russian Ukraine got

together 10 and 20 years after. You know now the total deaths, most of them

occurred in the explosion

itself and since then it's

amounted to about 50. Stay on Japan for the moment. Three

mile island, rather than Long Island, that

Island, that incident, they've

opened another reactor in that

precinct and I think the

nuclear issue is something

we've got to talk about seeing

it has been raised. It

underlines one fact, that is

Australia is the most

geologically stable places in the world build nuclear reactors. I

think that point has been

driven home. That's an excellent point. Andrew

welcomed the reports of cities

losing. losing. One city in

particular, the subject of

disturbing reports this morning. There are two

statistics that have got me.

One is I read that this

earthquake had moved the island

of Honshu, the main island of

Japan, ate eight feet to the right, to

right, to the east. That's

extraordinary. On a much more human and much more heartbreaking statistic is it

this town in Miyagi prefecture

that had a population of

17,000. They cannot account for 10,000 of those people from the one town. Let's take a look now at a rather graphic illustration of that from the

UK's channel 4. What we're

seeing here is aerial footage from Japanese television showing damage to the town

which is a town north of

Sendai, the regional capital.

Highlightrd a hospital and a two storey government

You can see the town before the

tsunami struck and then as the image changes, this is the really shocking image afterwards where you can see

everything has just been swept

away or covered in this sludge

and only the hospital remains.

The city office has gone. All

contact has been lost. Quite extraordinary. Kevin Rudd extraordinary. Kevin Rudd on

News 24 has just said he had a

conversation with the Japanese northern minister. some offers but he also made a

demand. Here he is. I spoke to specifically with the Japanese Foreign Minister on the phone

last night and said that last night and said that we and the rest of the international

community need urgent briefings

on the precise status of these

re actors. We're seeking re actors. We're seeking further corroboration of the

technical and safety impacts of

this from the Japanese

government. We, we, we. That

man is a disgrace. He's trying

to insert himself yet the news with some sort of beat up about the nuclear emergency,

demanding information from the Japanese Foreign Minister as if he doesn't have better things

to do, like seeking help digging

digging out 10,000 of his people from the wreckage and here's this show boater saying,

you know, give me information.

We demand it. He did stay we in the international community. I think if the international community were making such

defends they would do it

through the Secretary General

of the UN. Why does Kevin Rudd

need this information now? The

danger that we face from this reactor is this, zero. Here he

is show boating. He is a

disgrace. We'll leave the paper

there. In the early hours of this morning the Prime Minister

flew back into Canberra her week long visit to the

United States. She had to

cancel a visit to Hawaii and

the American facilities there because of the tsunami scare F

the treasure Wayne Swan has

been acting as Prime Minister.

He joins us from Brisbane.

Good morning. Welcome. Good morning, Barrie. What the

latest on this the from Australia's per fek respective.

Tell us first of all what you are listed as living or missing

in the area? Sure, Barrie.

There are something like 11,000

Australians in Japan in total

and in the affected areas we

have something like 1 8 9 Australians Australians who are registered.

There would, of course, be several hundred more

Australians not registered. At

this stage we have not made

direct contact with many of

those 1 8 9 that are registered

and what we are going to seek

to do over the coming days is to make that contact. you're aware, yesterday the National Security National Security Committee of

cabinet decided to send a

search and rescue team. We

also decided to send extra

consular assistance, particularly Japanese speakers,

that can go in with the search and rescue teams and of course

our embassy officials in Japan

are seeking to go to the affected areas when it is safe.

At the moment, we can't give

any greater clarity. I can say

that there are concerns for those that are living in the

area naturally. I mean, if see the footage here, this is

on a scale which is almost

beyond belief. We are doing

everything within our power to

assist Australians in Japan.

One of the good things that's happened overnight, Barry, is

that four or five flights have

left Narita Airport, so

Australians who want to come

home are coming home and, of

course, we remain in contact

with the Japanese authorities

to discuss what additional

assistance we can provide, in

addition to the research and resof and their way to Japan as we

speak. Does that extra

assistance include field hospitals and disaster victim identification teams? Yes,

quite possibly, Barrie. We very skilled in this area. As the National Security Committee said yesterday, as I indicated,

we do stand ready to provide

additional assistance. You can see that the scale of the disaster is such there will be

a very significant casualty

count. The damage to

communities is substantial, so

of course all of us in the global community cooperate to provide the

maximum degree of assistance to our Japanese friends. Kevin Rudd said this morning he's also offering them experts. Is that something that Australia can offer the

Japanese given that they have

nuclear power stations all over

the country? This morning the country? This morning I've

been talking to the head of our

nuclear regulator, Mr Mag news

Lars son, about this incident, particularly at one of the re

act toors in Fukushima. This

is an incident which is rated

as a scale of 1 to

that they have for these

accidents. In one of the

reactors the scale is set at 4,

which is an accident which has local implications. Our nuclear regulator is working with others internationally to model, to seek advice and of

course with the international

Tomic energy agency as well. A

lot of discussion, a lot of

consultation going on, but in

this community talking about this accident, particularly at

one reactor, but as you know it

is a bit wider than that as well, which is why the Japanese

authorities have set up an

evacuation zone, if you like,

of 20 kilometres and, of course, our travel advice is

for people not, I repeat not,

to travel to the area. Would

you have heard Kevin Rudd there

saying that he's demanded of

the Japanese an urgent briefing

on the precise status of these

re actors. Is that a fair

thing to demand of the Japanese

right now. They have quite a few things on their on right now. It on right now. It is a discussion I was just having

before with Mr Larsson about the consultations that are

going on with the Japanese going on with the Japanese and

in the international community. Yes, but what are

you saying is that Australia

and the rest of the international community is

demanding this. We haven't heard that from the Secretary General of the United Nations. What I think is that

there will be lessons to be learnt from these accidents

that have occurred. Of course,

our focus at the moment has to

be on rescue and it has to be told us what the National Security Committee of cabinet

decided yesterday. decided yesterday. Was that

part of, that Kevin Rudd should go and demand this briefing

from the Japanese? I think Mr Rudd has been

to do, which is discuss these

matters with counterparts in

Japan. We are a very close

partner of Japan. The

relationship is very strong.

It's developed very strongly

over the past 50 or 60 years

and we are working very and we are working very closely with them. I think that's what

he was indicating this morning.

There is a very close working

relationship and we certainly stand ready to provide any more

additional assistance that

should be required. More broadly, do you think there is

a need for Julia Gillard and

Kevin Rudd to get their lines

right on Libya? I don't accept that they don't their lines

right , as you put it, right , as you put it, on

Libya. The fact is they've

both got the same position, that a no-fly zone is one of

the options that has to go to

the security council. Slightly different words, same position,

Barrie, and the fact is we've

got a very big agenda before

us, not just the rescue and the

events that have occurred Japan, but also a very big domestic agenda. I just don't

think that this is the issue

that some have blown it up

tosh. There's far more than a

cigarette paper between the two positions. positions. Julia Gillard is

talking about it as an option and seems to be going off it

anyway. Kevin Rudd was

advocating there be a no-fly

zone. In the context of a range

of options going to the security council, that was the context, same position. That's

not really the way he put it.

He said it was the lesser of

two evils and he was advocating

it in the

range of options, Barrie. I

think the position is the same. This has been blown out This has been blown out of

proportion. They've got the

same position. The

Government's position has not changed since it was announced

in the Parliament on 2 March. Julia Gillard said in

the US she hadn't spoken to

Kevin Rudd. Should she talk to

him more often and as one of Julia Gillard's advisers said

Kevin Rudd doesn't run press releases past the Prime Minister's office. Do your

press release goes past the

Prime Minister's office? First

of all, I don't respond to

unsourced commentary. That's

do have a degree of cooperation

on these matters, as we should,

and they do talk, Barrie. The

fact is they were in different

time zones and you know how

these things are done. If the

main people in the cabinet are

in different time zones, in different time zones, other people will be doing the talking. Indeed, overnight,

Barrie, I've had to get a lot

of people doing a lot of

talking while I was as sleep

preparing to come on this

program, getting information.

That's how it works, particularly when people are in

different time zones. I'll ask

the question again. All your press release go before the Prime Minister's office before they're circulated They

certainly all go through a

central process. That's the

way it works. Sometimes,

Barrie, even with my press releases, there may be reasons

that they don't. I can't

comment on what's occurred in relation to any particular

press release from either

myself or anybody else. Just on

the carbon tax now the polls

suggest you've got off to a

rather bad start. Have you got

a plan B? I don't think this

debate was ever going to be easy, Barrie,

big reform which is right for

the country. It is a very significant economic reform

because those countries that

make the transition to carbon economy will be those

that win the prosperity of the

21st century, that drive the investment, drive the

investment in renewable energy, drive the investment in

technology and thafl drive the

jobs of the future. We had

fantastic job figures last

week. 330,000 jobs created in 50,000 in the month of February, despite everything that went on with natural

disasters. If we want to keep

on doing that sort of thing,

we've got to continue to

transition our economy. This

is one of the biggest economic

changes that we must put in

place to ensure prosperity for

the future. The science is

there, I know it is disputed by

scep picks like Mr Abbott and

others. The science is clear

and we have to embrace this

reform as we embrace big

reforms in the 80s and the reforms in the 80s and the 90s

to drive productivity in our

economy. That's what we've got

to do. It is a fight we're up for. for. We're not going to take a backward step and it is a fight

we can win. Will you need to spend millions of dollars on advertising to win that fight?

We haven't ruled advertising in or out. I was going through these

these matters. They were raised in

raised in the press last week

and I discovered John Howard in

his last budget before he went

to the people with his

emissions traying scheme which

Tony Abbott supported and

didn't say that it would

destroy jobs, that John Howard

had a $50 million allocation in

his last budget to advertise his emissions trading scheme. We haven't taken There's certainly a need to get

the correct facts out the correct facts out there,

particularly all of the distortion distortion caused by the right

wing shock jocks and the other

sceptics. It is a big water on

our hands. It is a battle

we're up for. It is a tough

battle. If you were to introduce advertising would

that come under the category

you identified once before on the Super Profits Tax, would you argue it is a national emergency, extreme urgency or other compelling reasons. I'm

not going into the ins and out

of our advertising guidelines. I'm not staying we're going

down that road. We haven't

taken a decision in this area.

Mr Combet has indicated this

morning we're setting up a climate change commission.

We're going to get out there and argue the facts on the

case, argue the science, argue

the economics and get on the

front foot on this issue. It

is so essential for future fut

grer prosperity, the creation

of the jbs and so essential to our children and grandchildren.

All those climate change

sceptics out there who want to

deny the science they can keep

their head in the sandses but

we're going to get with the down the advertising path would

you undertake not to advertise

until the details are at least

known and agreed? We're

working our way through all of

that detail right now. I notice there's been some

criticism that we announced an

emissions trading scheme and

didn't provide all of the

detail. The fact is we're out

there consulting on the breadth

of the scheme on the carbon price, all of

price, all of the things people

want tosh consulted on, we'll

do that in a methodical way and

a reasonable way with the community and put a

of course people can make their

judgment. We're up for the argument, Barrie, because we're right, it's good for the

economy, good for the country

and it's good for the

environment. When you're

Queenslander and you look north

to the Great Barrier Reef, you

understand that climate change

is something you've got to deal

with. Can you give us a sense

then on the decision making

timetable? When will you take

a decision on the price and

when will you decide on

compensation? These are

matters that go through the

multi party committee. We've

already decided there will be compensation. with emissions trade something

a few of the largest polluters

have to buy permits, that

delivers revenue, that revenue

is then delivered, if you like to, households and industry by

way of assistance.

the scheme works. We're

working our way through that

detail. We want to get it

done, but we've got to do it in a consultative way. Thanks for your time this morning. Good to

be with you. Members of

Congress, I have the high

privilege and distinct honour

of of presenting to you The Honourable Julia Gillard, Prime Minister of Australia. APPLAUSE Distinguished members of the

Senate and the house, you have a

a true friend Down

Under. (Sings) # One love, one

life. When John Howard

addressed you here in 2002, we

were already with you in

Afghanistan and we are with you

there still. Just as our security alliance is

war and peace, our economic

partnership is one for hardship

and prosperity. In hard days

we work together. reform is crucial now to

deliver the best hopes for a

strong recovery, breaking the link between economic growth

and emissions growth is a difficult challenge for our

economies, and we can only

achieve it by working together.

The centre of global strategic and economic

to this region. The rise of

the Asia-Pacific will define

our times. (Sings) # Not the same. We have to carry each

other. You were indispensable

in the Cold War and you are

indispensable in the new world

too. In both our countries

real mates talk straight. So

as a friend, I urge you only

this: be worthy to your own

best traditions. Be bold. I

firmly believe you are the same

people who amazed me when I was

a small girl by a small girl by landing on the

moon. On that great day I

believed Americans could do

anything. I believe that

still. You can do anything.

Thank you. APPLAUSE (Sings) #

With each other, With each other, sisters,

brothers, one life. How did you like Julia Gillard in

Washington. Before you make

the obvious., we have gone the obvious., we have gone back

to 2005. A Bono concert in

2005. We'll have a quick

listen to that now. When I was

a boy, my first impression of

America was a man walking on

the moon. I thought what can

this country do? What did

these people do when they put

their minds to it. their minds to it. It's incredible. It depends on what

the task of the speech and the

trip was. Essentially,

wouldn't it be to win the

confidence and make a good

impression with the US administration? Sure. That's

appreciated that you have to

flatter your hosts, but one,

there was only about 20 per

cent of the audience were

actually genuine members of the

Parliament. That's often the

way it is. It's often the way

it is. I checked on the AAP reporter John Howard's speech

75 per cent were made up of others, non- can respect and flatter for hosts without being fawning and grovelling and quite frankly

sickening. I was embarrassed by it. I it. How do you think it would

have played back home? I don't

think there would have been any

interest in it at all.

Probably a lot of people

stunned, as I was, that someone

could celebrate the capacity

for innovation that American

has and then break into tears.

I hate to see her addressing an American disaster. Man in the

moon, putting a man

was a great moment in world history and there she is

bursting into tears. It is so

strange and over reaction.

She's been stung by She's been stung by this thing

about being her being cold and

unemotional. She didn't cry in

front of the Black Saturday victim. She didn't cry in front of the Queensland flood

victims but she kriez when she

remembers man walking on the

moon It was partly being caught

up in the moment too. It is a

buzz for any Australian leader.

Bob Hawke, John Howard and Julia that event as the highlight of their political careers. She

wasn't crying for the man on

the moon, she was crying for

the excitement of being there,

is that what you're

saying. John Boehner was

bursting into tears. He would

burst into tears if you asked

him the time, mind you. Basically, the whole

object of the exercise was to

ingratiate herself with her

hosts. To make an impression, I

think, in the United

States. There was barely a

mention in the press over

there. Her trip completely unnoticed. You're

arguing a different point.

That's about the wider American community. The point you're

coming to really when you make

a speech like that, your audience audience isn't American. They don't care. They don't

broadcast T most of the

politicians aren't there. You must remember

must remember your audience is

back home. What you're saying

is that message then was pitched very badly. Yes. I

think we'll find mouth when Kim

Beazley whether it improves his

access to the various people

that he should see on behalf of

Australia. We'll wait and see. Back home, Kevin Rudd, an

adviser to Julia Gillard was

quoted in the Age as saying

he's out of control. he's out of control. That he

puts out numerous press

releases. He doesn't run any

past the Prime

office. This was a guy who was a

a control freak in office but

seems to be operating in a

different way himself. Nothing's changed.

Even to the extent possibly

that Kevin still think eshe's

Prime Minister. Nothing has

changed. I thought it was extraordinary yesterday morning

when the Foreign Minister got

up to brief the nation on what was happening in Japan before the acting Prime Minister could

get up and have his say. Given

that there hadn't been the security committee meeting nobody was quite sure what

Australia was doing, no one was

quite sure the predicament of

Australians in Japan, and there's the Foreign Minister at 10 o'clock in 10 o'clock in the

10 o'clock in the morning. This

morning, Wayne Swan of course

booked for two days to be on

this program at nine o'clock.

Kevin Rudd bobbed up on Channel

7, Channel 9 and News 24 in the

stays of 20 minutes at this morning. Also a announcing, as you put to Wayne

Swan, that we had demanded of the Japanese Foreign Minister

information about this nuclear situation they've got here

that's actually of no danger to that's actually of no danger to Australia, demanding, and

clearly it caught the acting

Prime Minister for the last

week completely by surprise.

It hadn't been run past him. I

mean, this Government is

descending into the greatest farce since past days. This is

a joke. We have two prime

ministers with Kevin Rudd

setting foreign policies. Some

would argue we have three prime ministers with Bob Brown

setting Greens' policies. Some

might argue that. It's a joke.

This is so... The thing about

Kevin Rudd, though, is that it

can only end in disaster

because he's still angry about

the way he was treated. Polls

like the one this week which

showed that he's more popular

than the woman who deposed him

only serve to reinforce his

inflated view of himself and he

is going to keep running his own race. He own race. He believes he doesn't have to be beholden to the

the Government or the Prime

Minister and everybody just

ends up chasing their tails and

covering like... Exactly, but

what does it say about this

dysfunction between a very

critical relationship between

the Prime Minister and to foreign foreign smin ter. When they're briefing him being a disaster. You don't necessarily believe there is a difference

between Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd on Libya? Look, it is a

fine line. You can link one

sided to other however much you like. I would argue

essentially they were at one essentially they were at one on

the no supply zone. They had

to get it through various

international councils and

forums, but essentially they

were saying the same thing. You

was perhaps being more emphatic

than Gillard in wanting this.

You could also argue that perhaps Gillard had been

Duchessed a bit after

meeting with Hilary Clinton. Kevin

Clinton. Kevin Rudd didn't have

the benefit of what the

American are actually thinking

on this. Quite true and the

Prime Minister did. In a

technical sense they were still

saying the same thing, but it

is just as the bolter said

there's a certain disconnect

between the two of them now

that any vague nuanced,

difference of nuance becomes a from a US official saying is

that Kevin Rudd's idea. What

resources is he offering in terms of maintaining this

no-fly zone She did no-fly zone She did appear to step back from the emphatic

statements that had been made

prior to and certainly from Kevin Rudd's emphatic

statements. For good reason,

the country you're asking to

execute it is not interested,

drop it. The difference is

actually profound in terms of

emphasis. Kevin Rudd was going

around giving interviews saying

we cannot have another into bombing of the Spanish city in

the civil war. We've got to

have a no supply zone. I'm

lobbying everyone. Gillard is

saying it is one of a range of options. There is a huge

difference. The thing is to compound that is compound that is the briefing

that people close to her are

giving journalists about him

being trouble. A news

conference in New York this

played out. Here it is. These

things are completely in accord

with each other. I don't want

to narrow any options. But he

does. I don't want to narrow any options... I don't accept your characterisation. Prime

Minister, Mr Rudd tweeted less

than 24 hours ago working with

other countries on no-fly zone

to stop Gaddafi's war planes. Mr Rudd is a member of your

cabinet. He's not a freedom fighter or citizen in a demonstration. Surely he

should not be going out making

these comments to the world at

large on a policy issue such as

that. Look, I think, let's be a

bit fair here. I've just

explained the merits of Tweeting. One of the great limitations limits to those number of characters. In terms of

assessing Mr Rudd's position, I

think it would be fair to look

at all of his statements and

fair to look at all of statements involving consideration by the UN Security Council. Graham

Richardson, who has been around

a while, had this to say on

SkyNews. I think he's been

going rogues ever ins is he

lost his job. Rudd is regularly in private conversation with journalists

bagging her constantly. It I think should be asked what

the hell is an Australian

Foreign Minister doing running around the Middle East and

Europe for a couple of weeks trying to organise a no-fly zone in Libya. Since when did

that become some integral part of Australia's strategic

foreign policy? Unless you

count getting a seat in the

security council an integral

part of Australia's foreign

policy which I think a lot of

Kevin Rudd's colleagues believe

that's what he's on about. Getting himself on the

UN is probably closer to the

turned out to be a disaster for

Julia Gillard. Her whole trip

to Washington, except the

speech we'll make friends in

one sense will prove she's well

disposed. What are the overwhelming messages in she

goes to America, she's not in

control of foreign policy,

she's being asked about the

Foreign Minister setting a

completely different poll

foreign policy. She comes

across as weak and isn't in control of her own government.

The other thing I want to ask is this, Barrie: the other

image of her being so addicted to spin and so trivial,

essentially trivial, you were with Bob Hawke. with Bob Hawke. Is there any

way on this earth that Bob

Hawke would go into the White

House on an official visit as

Prime Minister and pose kicking a footy around the Oval

Office. He might have been

inclined to do it. Is there any

way he would have done it. That

would have gone over well in

the Aussie rules states. I ask

again: would it? Could Keating have done

it. Would serious people have

done it. Menzies wouldn't

have worn a two piece suit.

Let's get a bit real here. This

is a stunt for... It was a good

stunt. It was a joke and it

brands her as trivial Terrific

photograph. I want to go back

to another indication of something that would have

frustrated those in government

apart from Kevin Rudd. On Wednesday, Kevin Rudd, Anna Bligh

out a long list of initiatives

to boost tourism in Queensland.

They put up $10 million to

support. The next day this was the headline in the Courier

Mail. "Rudd dives in". Kevin

Rudds had put up his own

freelancing idea he would

invite 100 diplomats to

Queensland. That being noed

off the story the other three

put up. I think it is pretty obvious

obvious I'm not on Kevin Rudd's

staff. I would like to defend

him to a degree. He was

invited by 'The Courier Mail' to produce to produce a project that might help Queensland. One of a

number of people to be invited

to do so. He delivered his effort I think on the Friday

and it was up to the Courier Mail when they ran it. He had

nothing to do with the timing

and it wasn't his initiative.

You might want to go to the

actual substance of his

proposal. I now sit

proposal. I now sit back. On

the subject, he wasn't there

Atkinson there of course. 100

diplomats to Queensland might

be the thing the state needs. My defence of versus the people finished back there. He was very busy

promoting the idea. He was

over ooes cease of course

over ooes cease of course but

there's always the phone. He picked up the phone to the

local radio station. 4 BC. I'm currently in the Middle East

transiting Cairo on to Tunisia.

Everywhere I go people ask this question: how are the floods?

Has Queensland recovered. I get it everywhere I go. I had

it today in and Derby. We're back in three-day workshop, that was

what the 100 diplomats he was

talking about bringing them up

to Brisbane. They pay their own

costs, they pay their costs, they pay their own way. Let's think about. How

many of these diplomats will

rock up for the event and pay

their own way. Think about it.

What will they then do. Send

tourism posters back. They're going to be in the classroom and Kevin Rudd lecturing. Three

days of Kevin Rudd. That would be wonderful. Before this than Newspoll there were rumblings about Tony Abbott performance, Malcolm Turnbull was being

mentioned. David old field

made some suggestion this and Malcolm Turnbull put paid to that. to that. Here he is. The

suggestion that David old -

field made that I was seeking to undermine Tony Abbott is

absolutely untrue. There is no

basis in fact or the only basis in fact or the only basis

for that is his fantasy and

it's really disgraceful. Of course the the question preferred Prime Minister, Julia Gillard or Kevin Rudd? I think that can

be overstated. In this sense, if you're rusted-on coalition

supporter and you're asked that

question, you're going to be

going to say Kevin Rudd. If you were to ask Malcolm Turnbull and Julia Gillard

wouldn't coalition supporters

say Labor supporters say Malcolm Turnbull or Tony

Abbott, they would go Abbott, they would go to

Malcolm Turnbull to create

mischief. Malcolm Turnbull is closer to Labor ideology than

Tony Abbott. The way Newspoll is is used as such a clever

marketing tool, I find, just incredible,

incredible, it's gathered such

momentum offer the last three or four years that or four years that now Newspoll basically dictates to the government how it will react to

things. When the big shifts occur I think it does.

Imagine when we didn't have Newspoll. Imagine how policy making in this country would be

different. You're so right.

I've noticed this over the last

several years. You get a

debate going, right, and

obviously a debate takes a arguments to develop,

persuasion, but you see a debate developing, and Newspoll

come in, you lost, bang they stop. Yes. stop. Yes. Everything's on the

back foot. The whole context

for the government is on the

back foot and for the

Opposition on the front foot

and they adjust the way they

react to the crisis. It quickly

sorts those who have a bit of

courage and those two don't. Is

this the way policy making in this country should be

developed. It shouldn't Part of the problem is the

journalists, really what you're

saying. It is the journalists

too. The Newspoll come out and

they move on. It is like a punctuation mark. Graham Richardson, to quote him again,

was very interesting in this,

saying that the problem has

been that the Canberra press

gallery has been feeding the

whole global warming thing and

we must do something we must do something and put in the carbon tax and keep going

and the panicked the government

into doing what actually is

stupid and suicidal. I - Rubbish That's what he says. That's what you said Rubbish. That's what

Graham Richardson has said. I

think overstated because the

politicians have to own their

own mistakes, but I do think that points to the real problem

here, the government is

enthralled to an idea that should never have come up even

under Kevin Rudd. Tony Windsor

agrees to you to an extent. He

thinks they got their stratdepi

wrong. I think they put the

cart before the horse here a

bit. They've given the conclusion

conclusion without a number,

without a target, without a

price. If they'd gone directly

to an emissions trading they wouldn't have the argument about lying about a carbon tax. Who advised the government

that it could be a idea good to

announce a carbon tax with no

details? It is a perfectly

valid way to approach a development of an development of an important

policy like this. They probably

appreciate now that it wasn't.

Surely they now have to quickly start making announcements. Julia Gillard

has returned today to some

disquiet amongst some of her

most senior ministers. On a

number of fronts. One is whose

idea was this because it wasn't

discussed widely within

cabinet. Secondly, what's this business of business of elevating Bob Brown and Christine Milne, making

them essentially partners in government. That press

conference a couple of weeks

ago, it was a sort of press

conference you have once you've achieved something, not when you're setting out to do something and you've got

nothing to back up. It was extraordinary and it was

offensive to a lot of Labor

people including ministers.

Christine Milne has been going

around as if she's some member

of cabinet claiming credit, a certain amount certain amount of triumphalism on her part which is also

annoying senior ministers. The

Prime Minister is going to have

to deal with that. Bob Brown it

seems it at least interested in

outcomes. Christine Milne when the

the decision was taken she was

caking credit for it, on the

pulp mill when that was

announced she said this was probably the probably the government trying to to build a between us and them. To draw on the politics every time this

is taken it makes it so much

more difficult for the government government to meet them halfway

on these issues. Julia Gillard

problems with that start cosfor

instance. The atmospherics were bad. Flanked by the

Independents and the Greens and announcing something that

wasn't ready to be announced.

It is more than the selling.

The problem I think goes even

one step before that. I think

you're right, but it goes

before that. She should never

emissions trading scheme that she had persuaded Kevin Rudd to

drop a year ago because it was

poison then and it is poison now. I find it just incompetent that having drawn

the right lesson last year, she then puts herself in precisely the position that Kevin Rudd

was in. What if she'd take the Tony Windsor approach and gone

straight to an emissions

trading scheme? As he said that would have removed so many of the negatives that are out

there now, that the broken

promise and the scare campaign on on a tax. Why didn't she? I mean, I guess the thing is it

they had to move on something.

They'd promised they would move during the election campaign.

They were under pressure and will continue to be under pressure from the Greens. They

had to do something. It is not

just the selling campaign. It

is the product stinks as well.

It is an incompetent selling campaign, you're perfectly

right, but the product right, but the product stinks

and while Labor thinks she can

win an election by

new tax, in whatever form, it

won't work. No one has asked

the fundamental question,

right, we've got this wonderful tax, (a) the price, (b) how

much will it lower world temperatures I

temperatures I by. That's the

ultimate objective. Do you

know how much it will lower the

world's temperature. Almost

zero. Probably zero. People are increasingly realising are increasingly realising that all this pain comes at no gain. It is too early to be

asking how much it costs until you put a price on

carbon. Wrong. Because you say

your objective is to cut

emissions by 5 per cent 2020. That does have a price

and that must have an

objective. If you do that, how

much will temperatures go down.

Do you know how much it? You

can't put a price on it. It is like I'm going to develop a new

model car, until I know what it

is and what I'm putting in it, you

you don't know the price. You

do know the price of cutting

emissions by 5 per cent roughly and you should know even more specifically how much will temperatures go down. Do you

know how much it will be? Zero

point 001. Of a request is asked what's the request is asked what's the

price of doing nothing? Have you calculated that. From your

point of view. None, right. That's just an inversion

of exactly what I've just said.

The answer still is if you

spend these billions, you will achieve

achieve nothing in lowering the

world's temperatures. When

people realise that, they'll be

even more angry. It comes to

this point and Ross Garnaut was

out and about this week and

raised this question, if evidence, as he of man made global warming is

getting stronger, he believes

that very strongly, why then is

confidence in the science

diminishing around world.

Here's Ross Garnaut. One must

presume that as an issue new moves from something of purely

scientific interest into the

subject of political debate and

dispute, there's a whole lot of communications come into play

that aren't actually about

science. Politics basically.

Politics is behind it. The

science is a bipartisan issue

at the moment. Tony Abbott has

stressed over the last couple of weeks, in particular, that the coalition the coalition accepts that

climate change is under way and

that it has a human element to

it. Just as John Howard

accepted it, just as Malcolm

Turnbull accepted it. Exactly,

no issue among the major

parties. They all agree. Now

it is a debate about policy.

Not true. That's what they say they're fibbing. You're not

saying that Tony Abbott is fibbing. The majority in his party don't believe human activity is activity is causing global

warming. That's not the

position of Tony Abbott. That

betrays a fun American

fundamental loophole that Tony

Abbott has. If you were to

walk down to St Kilda Beach and

urinate into port filly way would you have contributed to

the warming of the bay. That

is essentially Tony Abbott's formula formula too. I've never heard him express it in that

way. What does that mean?

That's right. Every little bit helps, but it is insignificant... Why does he have a policy on climate

change. Good question. You're

right there. Would you right there. Would you say Spot

on. I agree with you. What's the answer?

the answer? The answer is because at the doesn't because at the doesn't people... You're saying he's

fibbing. He's misrepresenting coalition intentions. That's

outrageous. He will be risking and wasting billions of dollars. I

agree. He has had a number of

positions on climate change over the years. He's offering a

token solution to a non-existence right. That's

leadership. Let's move on now. The difference is histo

Ken thing will be at a price

infinitely less than what the

Labor policy will be How do you

know. There should be a no

carbon tax rally outside his

election office. You guys are keen on keen on action, let me ask you, Malcolm Please do. If we do everything and achieve the

Government's aim, 5 per Government's aim, 5 per cent

cut by 2020, what do you think

the world's temperatures will

go down by. I have go down by. I have nod. You say we should do something. I've never said

that. I'll blog on that. Yesterday there were

rallies You'll what on that?

Blog. Is that like go to the

Port Phillip and... Malcolm.

There were rallies in

Melbourne, one in support of

the carbon tax, the one against the carbon tax drew one in support drew 2000

people. Wait a minute. It was

more like four and eight I see

in the papers today. 400 of

the anticarbon tax in Werribee outside Julia Gillard's office

and 800 in the get up one. The

left are very good at this. You're probably right. Where

did you get the 800 figure. I saw

saw three reports and they all

mentioned thousands. I didn't

see that. There were a couple

of dozen outside Julia's office. 4 or 500 outside Julia

Gillard's office. It's not

huge. Is that the beginning of

a people revolution when 200 or

400 people turn up at the first

argue against did? It's

Werribee and it started from

scratch. It is not set up scratch. It is not set up like

get up is set up. If it's

nothing and this is a sign there's no momentum here at

all, then the politicians won't

worry, will they. You won't

have Julia Gillard worried

today, will you. Let's see if she's sweating. Perhaps we

should save the real debate on

that when we know the details

of what's going to be

done. Horror of horrors. Some

of us have made up our minds

already. There are two people that gave evidence to this

week, last week on the status

of climate change, one was The

Economist Ross Garnaut and John

Christie a leading climate

scientist lead author of the IPCC infinite qualifications,

he went to the US Congress and said actually man done seem to be worked out as panned the rate of warming is a

third of what the climb model

predicted over the last 30

years and any government

program to try and cut it won't

be worth it. That was his

evidence. Can you trust the

climate scientist or you can

trust The Economist. Is there

anything in prospect that will

change the topic so this subject won't be the dominant

political issue in the next 12

months or so. There's budget

Col ago long. It's been

suggested by I think in the

Herald Sun Telegraph it might

be the toughest budget since

1996. What's going to change

budget will to a degree. Have

to to feel sorry in a way for

Wayne Swan. He's acting Prime Minister at the time of the Christmas Island boat wreck, he's

he's acting Prime Minister when the flood started in Western

Queensland and now he's acting Prime Minister with this

absolute disaster in Japan. More

More so, though, he's a

Treasurer trying to develop a

budget when each of those two

disasters are reducing his

options because they're cutting productivity, domestically internationally, and I think to

produce this budget to keep the timetable the government has

set, there's going to have to

be some really hefty cutting

and I think there are going to be a lot of ministerial noses

out of joint. What's going to

change the politics of this? I

think the switch is going to be

to the economy and the management of the economy with

the budget coming up in May. If

ever they needed a political

circuit-breaker it is now.

That's why the budget presents

has that potential. Even if

some of the news is bad. There

coming up and going up and

going away. We're talking about issue that helped in the

career of John Howard, it ended Kevin ministership. It threatens to

completely destroy Julia

Gillard's. It ended the leadership of Malcolm Turnbull. For different

reasons. Same issue,

different reasons. I'm just

saying this is an issue that

will keep on giving us dead

leaders until the whole scare

evaporates. I do think, though, a week ago

running this a tax on the big

polluters and not on average Australians, that started to

resonate with some people.

A. The next political stouch has surely got to be around

what expenditure on advertising

they're going to suggest. If

they we know all the get out

clause, national emergency.

Both sides of politics have

crueled their pitch on this one

because they've both had a

massive attacks at each one on

the level of advertising spent

over the years on so-called national emergency

measures. We know when that

kicks in by the way, when your

opinion poll drops When your opinion poll drops, yes. I think they have to be very careful around that because they look... It looks so

hypocritical when you start flinging taxpayers's money

around on justifications, self justification. More from our

panel later. Here's Michael Bowers

Bowers and Talking Pictures.

I'm Michael Bowers I'm Talking Pictures this morning with

cartoonist Jason Chatfield. Welcome to the program. Good to

be here. Thank for coming

here. Julia Gillard went to

Washington and have received the love, the Oval Office love.

It's pouring out. Yes, it is. It's always a golden

opportunity. As soon as an

Australian Prime Minister goes

to America and it is just a matter of picking one. You

know, not only do you get to

sort of kick footballs with the

leader of the free world, but

you're sitting underneath the

gaze of Washington I think is over this side. It

is a pretty historic thing.

You couldn't help but be moved

by it. You would like to rub

shoulders with this bloke. I'm glad glad there's photographs of this. It proves I didn't dream

the Prime Minister was kicking a

a footy in the Oval Office with

the President. That's pretty cool, cool, isn't it. The footy,

incidentally, made out of Julia

Gillard's blazer. You're a

Melbourne boy. How is his kicking style. For someone who

hasn't kicked he's picking

pretty well. on the damage when you kick

inside. The kid December are

told never to do that. You can

show me how to kick goals PM Gillard. She knocked over a

bust of Lincoln. All the

journos started scribbling. He

said I'm kidding. She did visit

a school. The local White

House press tells us this is a

very rare event. It doesn't happen. She's happen. She's obviously

getting the love well and

truly. It didn't happen to

to have an off site to visit

something. An extraordinary

event. It is an honour reserved

for friends down under. I

think is the official line. I love love the pick yes of the standing ovations, a rose

amongst the thorns, the red jacket glowing as much as her hair. It sets hair. It sets off nicely

against the stars and

stripes. It does. The star spanning spanning gelled ranger. That's

too good. That's doo good. This week was the 100th anniversary of international

women's day. You've picked up

on that. Quentin on that. Quentin Bryce talking

about quotas in company boards and talking about the old boys

club and I did a quick one, the

door at the old boy's club,

saying "I'm here to fix the

ceiling", with a mallet to

drive it home. This lovely photograph from the Herald Mike Keating, the school. The

is girl. Don't they look lovelying at the former

Riverview boy. Tony and all of

his friends. It's lovely,

isn't