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(generated from captions) This Program is Captioned Live. Hello. I'm Eleanor Hall. Coming up - the Government throws a blanket of secrecy over its policy of turning back the boats. Big changes ahead for the NBN Co board. Is Clive Palmer coming to Canberra? Joining me tonight - Peter Lewis, Jennifer Hewett and Michael Kroger. First here is Rachel Puppazoni with the news.The headlines here - a Tasmanian architect with dual nationality and his pregnant partner were among dozens of people killed in an attack at a Kenyan shopping mall. Australian-UK dual nationalist Ross Langdon and his Netherlands-born partner Elif Yavus were both killed in the
attack. It is Yavus were both killed in attack. It is understood she was eight attack. It was eight months pregnant. 68
people attack. It is understood she
was eight months pregnant. people are confirmed dead. A Brisbane Supreme Court jury has found two people guilty of murdering Gold Coast policeman Damien Leeding. The 35-year-old officer was shot in the head while trying to stop an armed robbery at a Gold Coast tavern in May 2011. 41-year-old Phillip Graeme Abell and 39-year-old Donna Lee McAvoy
were both convicted earlier today. The WA Court of Appeal has dismissed an appeal against the murder acquittal of former Perth barrister Lloyd Rayney whose wife Corryn was found dead in a shallow grave in 2007. Mart Justice Martin orj - Justice Brian Martin originally concluded the case lacked logic and crucial evidence and Mr Rayney was acquitted. Prosecutors lodged an appeal but three judges from the eastern States upheld the result today. Team USA is closing the gap on New Zealand in San Francisco. The US won both of today's races taking them to five points, three behind the Kiwis who need one more victory to claim the grand prize. The competitors are almost evenly imagined in terms of race wins. That's the latest news, now back to Eleanor with The Drum.

This Program is Captioned Live.

Hello. Welcome to The Drum. I'm Eleanor Hall. Coming up - mass resignations at the company building the National Broadband Network. Clive Palmer wins his seat but declares the Electoral Commission a national disgrace. As New Zealand eyes an America's Cup victory, we talk to the skipper who won in 1983 John Bertrand. Our panel, Essential Media's Peter Lewis, the 'Australian Financial Review' columnist Jennifer Hewett and former Liberal Party leader Michael Kroger.The Government today outlined its plans for the asylum seekers. Its promise to stop the boats was the most prom innocent of the election campaign. Since the election more than 500 people have reached Australia by offshore for processing. The first boat to arrive since the Coalition was sworn in reached Christmas Island yesterday. Today Scott Morrison the Minister said Today Scott Minister said the government will no longer provide updates each time a boat arrives. He said there will be no public notification when the Navy attempts to turn a boat around.We want to make it crystal clear operational and tactical issues that relate to current and prospective operations, whether it is in the maritime environment, land environment, offshore or anywhere else will not be the subject of public commentary from these podiums.Labor and the Greens say the Government is trying to conceal the truth.He told us he had a plan to stop the boats. We now know he had a plan to stop the press releases. There is no operational reason, no operational reason, not to issue press releases on each boat arrival. At no point did the previous government receive any advice from the military or from any national security expert that the releases of boat arrivals were jeopardising operational integrity.This is nothing to do with people smuggling. This is everything to do with Tony Abbott knowing full well that the refugee crisis around the world is to
going to go on and he is trying to get it off the front pages and is trying to hide the information. That's what should frighten Australians, that we are going to end up with a country in which the government tries to pull down the blinds.Michael Kroger, this is a bad look politically, giving the Labor Party its own three-word slogan to attack the government with - hide the boats? Hide the boats, yeah. (Laughter). Watching Chris Bowen and Christine Milne gives me a migraine, it reminds me of a bygone era in Australian politics. No, you've got to assume there is a very good reason why Scott Morrison wants to do this and I must say I don't know the answer but I'm assuming that these people smugglers use press releases and information that officially is released by the Government to promote their businesses. In other words, they will say to potential clients of theirs, people who want to come on boats "This boat left an Indonesian port on this date, here is a release from the Australian government showing with if same this particular boat with if same 30 or 50 with if same 30 or 50 people three days later". Yes, the boats leave, they arrive, here is the official proof that boat arrived. You've got to presume what Scott arrived. You've got to what Scott Morrison is trying to do is deny that specific information to the people smugglers. That's what I think he is trying to do.He is giving weekly updates, will they be any more imperfus to use by the people smugglers than the previous system in ? I assume so. Jason Clare was very good at giving every piece of information that was possibly available to the previous government. I'm presuming that was used by the people smugglers. I think Scott Morrison is trying to give information once a week but not be as specific as the previous government about which boat left on which date, arrived on which date so there isn't this crystal clear evidence people smugglers can use. That's what I'm presuming he is trying to do.On the other hand the residents of Christmas Island say they will be providing their own updates every time a boat arrives, so what's the point? It is not as good as an official press release from the Federal Government, is it? That's the point.Jennifer Hewett, does this policy make sense to you? It makes a rather limited amount of sense. I understand Michael's view about official press release from the Government" about saying "This is not an Government" but I think it raises the risk of everybody trying to do a gotcha and we know where this boat came from and everything. I don't think it will prove that effective. On the other hand, nor do I think it is that important as an issue whether it's a release once a day or every two days as opposed to once a week. We will see how it plays out. The other issue I think is also fairly important and that is whether or not there is any attempt to turn the boats around. How that works and whether or not that kind of material is released, I actually think will be more significant. It is hard to imagine, frankly, how it could not be. The difference will be whether or not they want people rushing out in media planes straightaway. We will see how that works.We will come to that point in more detail in a moment, but Peter Lewis do you think the public will demand more transparency on this issue of announcing when boats have arrived? The whole notion of operational reasons is one of the old cliches in the spin doctor's play book - if you don't want to talk about something, you say it is an operational reason. There is two reasons why Scott Morrison is wanting to dampen this down, the first one is that he is about to wade into a diplomatic quagmire with Indonesia and, quite rightly as a responsible government, not to be inflating that in the media is fair enough. The second is the politicise ation of asylum He
seekers has served its purpose. is
He has got into power, his job is to dampen the issue down and deal with it soberly, something he never allowed the Labor Government to do. The problem for Labor is they never gained out of inflating the issue. It was an issue that split Labor's base. I think the Liberals will do everything they can to deal with the issue and put in a box they only open when Labor is looking at the election.Scott Morrison said what will be completely secret is turning the boats around. He is talking about operational secrecy there. Do you think there is any justification for that? How can you have a key election policy you now say it is a national secret whether or not we meet our election commitment or not? It is kind of crazy. The other problem for the Libs is none of this will resolve traffic congestion on the M2 and that's what they have set this position up to be a cure-all for.Michael Kroger are you prepared to defend the policy of complete scpretcy about the - secrecy about the boat turn-around element? Look at it this way, if Scott Morrison has been minister for four days, under the last five years of the Howard government, 272 people arrived. Under the last five years of Gillard-Rudd, 50,000 people arrived. You have to say the Coalition has a pretty good record in relation to border protection and I think I'd be prepared to give Scott Morrison a go at whatever he thinks will work. After four days, it is very well for Peter to trash him after four days in office but I'd be prepared to say perhaps give Scott Morrison a couple of years policy works rather couple of years to see how the policy works rather than write him off after policy works him off after four days.A policy works rather than couple of years? How long it couple of years? How takes. One week, six months, two years.You don't think the Government will be setting itself a time frame in terms of itself a time frame in terms judging its success on this policy? I don't know what time frame you judge it be to be honest. The answer is as soon as you can stop the boats, they are moving quickly to try to do that. They are trying new things because everybody tried in the past was a disgrace. It was the greatest public policy failure since federation. 1,100 people drowned. These are fathers, mothers and children. These people drowned at sea and Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard changed John Howard's successful policy and those people drowned. So Peter, I think you should give Scott Morrison and Tony Abbott and the Coalition a bit of time, my friend ...Stop is a fairly definitive commitment.... it is definitive because the last government was a disgrace in terms of dealing with the issue. 1,100 people drowned. This is an unforgiveable.You have to get past blaming the previous government and start dealing with what's in front of you.They've been in office four days, let's try and give them a go, my friend.Jennifer Hewett, on this press conference, we saw the General put in charge at the press conference with the Minister. He said the policy of turning the boats around would be risky. Do you Government and the military be
risky. Do you think there could Government and the military on
this? It is going to be a very fraught area and difficult area and tactic to pull off. But I don't think the fact they are saying it is going to be difficult suggests there is going to be tension immediately. Obviously some people in the military are not keen on it, but there is a chain of command and the guy who has taken over as the head of Operation Sovereign Borders was clearly saying - I noticed it was very obvious that Scott Morrison kept referring to him about questions and saying this was a military operation, so I do think they are also trying to move it out as much as possible of the political agenda.Do you think Angus Campbell looked comfortable in that front-man role? I think he looked as comfortable as any military officer would be. He obviously decided to take it on, to accept the role, so he may not be the smoothest media performer - I thought he looked fine. I also think, although you will get a lot of criticism from people who are very critical of the Coalition attitude, and the Labor attitude towards asylum seekers, I think the majority of the population will be as Michael said, reasonably happy to just let it go for a while and see what happens, until there is a problem.Peter Lewis you have interesting research on the broader attitude of Australians towards the Abbott Government. What does it show? It shows a real lack of any real expectation of things getting better. It reminds me of the movie where the guy who got caught in the rock had to cut off his arm to set himself free. It is like "We don't like what happened, we supported the policies of the previous mob but changed government". There is not a huge expectation. People don't think their lives will be particularly better, they've just got the Labor Government out the door and it is back to 2004 where the Coalition had a pretty significant majority, they just don't have control of the Senate this time.There was a shock for the government today in another key election policy area. The Coalition has been promising to deliver a more Network
efficient National Broadband Network so will today's mass resignation of almost all the directors on the NBN board help or hinder this? The decision on whether to accept the resignations will be taken Labor is already Cabinet early next month Labor is already accusing the government Australia's digital future.How government of fiddling with on earth is it good for the future of on earth is it good future of Australia, all
Australians, on earth is it good for the
future of Australians, to have a Australians, to have a digital divide where the amount of money you have will determine your access to the information super highway? The idea the only way you can ever get fibre to the home is by paying thousands of dollars extra clearly means some people will have access to the information super highway of the future, and everyone else, well they live in Tony Abbott's Australia and will have to miss out.Jennifer Hewett, will this move by the NBN board embarrass the Minister, the Prime Minister? As it turns out, this has been a fast-moving story today. As it turns out, he wanted their resignations. He asked for their resignations. It has been very clear for some time that he wanted a pretty massive clean-out of the board, that he had chosen Ziggy Switkowski to replace - to become the new chairman of the board and that he wanted a lot of the directors changed as well. The been speeded up a little bit. It was the last meeting effectively It effectively of the board on Friday, he asked for the resignations, he got them.That's not the way it them.That's not the way it is being reported, it almost looks like they were ga sumping him? I thought that myself. They were in an invidus position. Their reputations were being trashed. Rather than waiting to be sacked, they'd say "No, we'll just go". But in fact because he wants to have very quick change, he decided to announce that at their last meeting that's what he would like to see. Now the 'Sydney Morning Herald' reported this story, that has been speeded up, I think, and it may well be that the appointment of Ziggy Switkowski and a couple of the remaining directors who he does want to keep on the board will be announced pretty shortly.He will accept the resignations rather than waiting for Cabinet? I think that may be the case.Do you think Malcolm Turnbull's criticisms of this has
board over the last few months has been justified? The criticisms of how NBN Co has organised the rollout of the NBN have been an obvious fertile political ground. It has clearly been - it has missed targets, not been on budget, plus he has the very different view of how NBN Co should be but I do think, for many of the people on the board, it is part of this collision between a political imperative and commercial imperatives. They went on the board obviously believing in the strategy, he clearly did not believe in the strategy, so in a sense they are kind of collateral damage on that.Michael Kroger, we just heard Bill Shorten describe this as a sacking and stacking. Your response to that? Well I think Malcolm Turnbull and the Government are probably relieved the board have offered their resignations or been asked for their resignations either way. I think one of the problems with the board is there wasn't enough people with operational experience in rolling out large infrastructure programs. Four bankers and lawyers, one person with media experience, a civil engineer and one person with telephony experience. That is not the kind of experience you want on a board that is going to roll out the largest infrastructure program in Australian history. I think what Malcolm Turnbull wants to do is have more people on that board who have operational experience and massive infrastructure rollouts and I think that's probably - combined with the fact the NBN didn't seem to be on budget and
time as Jennifer didn't seem to be on time as Jennifer just said, I time as think those two things together meant he is going to be very relieved he can pick a new board of people board of people and predominantly people who have had this infrastructure rollout experience successfully before, particularly in the telco sector. I think that's where he is heading. He will be very relieved.Michael Kroger, more broadly, you know Malcolm Turnbull very well, there is very little dispute that the technology that the Coalition is promising is inferior, how comfortable do you think he would be with that? Do you think there is a chance he might try to massage it a little so the Coalition may deliver better technology? No. I know Malcolm very well and don't think there is anyone better in the country to be Minister for Communications on an issue like this. No-one doubts Turnbull's expertise, he has world class expertise in a field like this. Here is the answer - you have a $30 billion program or a $90 billion program ...Another way of putting it is you've got a top-class technology or an interior technology. Which do you think he would be more comfortable with? We'd like to spend $90 billion if we had it. We don't have the money. We don't want to issue $60 billion more bonds to the Chinese government and owe them another $60 million to pay for the $90 billion rollout. We owe $300 billion internationally, much of it to Chinese Government, at interest rates which means a $12 billion spent money like there was a tree out there that grew. Unfortunately, as many of the entrepreneurs of the 80s found out and governments around the world have found out, in the end you world have found end you get hit by the economic reality stick and it was going to hit the government sooner or later and it ain't going to hilt Malcolm Turnbull. You have a more than adequate broadband speed being provided for $30 billion other than $90 billion with speeds that a lot of people would never ever have used. That's the difference.Jennifer Hewett, you want to come in here? We shouldn't forget the changes in technology that have occurred over the last couple of years since the NBN was dreamed up and that is the fact you can actually get a lot more speed in copper wires now than anyone thought possible, including the experts even a couple of years ago. Yes, it may not be the perfect solution but it will be - Turnbull is particularly confident it will be a very adequate solution for most people and it will be delivered much more quickly to more people.Peter Lewis, this shake-up at the NBN board was not entirely unexpected, how do you think it will play publicly? It is now very much Malcolm Turnbull's NBN and Tony Abbott's NBN. Without trying to make a political point out of this, the Liberals now have positioned their NBN as being something that is not going to cost as much and I think the danger is over time as it rolls out, if anything goes wrong, if it is too expensive, if it doesn't deliver what people want, given Labor never had to prove what the technology was except in a small number of test sites "It is because they have skimped on the future". It does open up in the longer term a play for Labor as they try to rebuild. Before the election, Labor's model was more popular a factor of 2 to 1, not surprising, it was a bigger, brighter, glossier thing but it does create a long-term problem with a major infrastructure project, starting it off this is second best, not as good as it could be.The Coalition began its term in power by axing the Climate It seems many more Government agencies on the way out. The 'Daily Telegraph' reports the Coalition will shut the Preventative Health Agency and consider closing the Institute of Criminology. A lot of this is unsurprising but does the government need to tread carefully around issues like preventive health? You can tread carefully around the areas but it doesn't mean you need the bodies and institutions and bureaucrats that have grown up in the last several years. I don't think that will be particularly unpopular with the public at all.Is this business as usual? Normally the government tries
to hide the cuts. Good on them, to hide the at least they are saying to hide the cuts. Good on at least they are saying what at least they are agency they will cut and what area of life they don't see a government policy in. A key driver of productivity is getting industry getting industry moving, it was a Kevin Rudd pet project, to see whether it continues will be interesting.Tony Abbott wants to lead a calm government, does he need to be careful about how he puts the cuts into place? Of course he does. I am sure he is very very sensitive to those things. We are $30 billion in deficit this year. Sooner or later someone on the Labor side has to say "Okay, we agree with these cuts because we were never going to get the budget back into surplus". Sooner or later we have to get to a position where we are no longer continually borrowing money from overseas. There are lots of smaller items where the Government has to claw back public expenditure without damaging the social infrastructure of the country but they have to do it - what else can they do? You can't keep wracking up debt after debt every year. Australia is a conservative economic country, it is a red rag to the bull, Kevin Rudd spending another project he was announcing. The Government hated it, because they thought "You Government hated they thought "You haven't got they any money, what money use were left by John Howard you have spent and you will wrack up more debt". That's what the public decided, of course Tony has to be cautious about this, but they have to get into a position where Joe Hockey gets the budget back into surplus. They've got no choice.Let's look at the new Opposition and Labor's leadership aspirants have found another point they agree on. Bill Shorten and Anthony Albanese both say it was wrong of the Gillard Government, in which they were both ministers, to cut welfare payments for single parents. parents on
The cut moved thousands of parents on to the Newstart allowance costing some of them as much as $100 a week.I think the Labor Party as a whole wants to revisit this and reposition the debate about sole parents because there are legitimate grievances which have emerged from the policy we articulated.Areas like I think the sole parent payments is an area where we made a mistake. We essentially meant that some of the most vulnerable people ended up with less income.Just what they will do about this is likely to be raised when Mr Shorten and Mr Albanese face each other in their first debate tomorrow night. Peter Lewis, this leadership contest comes after a gruelling election campaign. Do you think anyone is likely to be following this debate? Do you know what has been missing, the self flagellation of true believers talking about where we went wrong, no revisionism that is cast gating either Rudd or gord Gillard. It has been looking forward. By talking about themselves and where they are going, it has been a healthier outcome than otherwise because instead of it's
saying "We lost, yeah we lost", it's actually talking about what are we going to do now. I think it is working for them.Jennifer Hewett there is more agreement than disagreement, how do you think the members of the party and the caucus players will make up their minds on who to choose? I guess - in terms for example of the decision on single mothers, of course it is one of those wonderful things where it is all no responsibility, they can promise this type of stuff, they don't have to do it, they made a different decision in government when they had to pay for it so I don't take any of that stuff seriously at all. In contrast, I don't think this is going particularly well. People are sympathetic to the Labor cause, but the last election that was a third of people, will think "This is a good thing". Most of the rest of the country thinks it is a big yawn ...They don't care for good reason.But the other thing is they are not getting their house in order . They are not saying as Bob Hawke said "This is a big loss and we should take stock". reverse, "We did take stock". They are doing reverse, "We did a good job and both take stock". They are doing the
reverse, "We both of us will do better and reverse, "We did a good job more of the same in future".Michael Kroger, if I can ask you to can ask you to put your political strategist hat on, do you think it is a good thing for the Labor Party at this stage to be having this sort of leadership debate? Well, yes and no. To the policy first of all. This is the type of policy that if the budget was in better shape, you know intuitively that Tony Abbott would want to restore those payments immediately. This type of policy - how a single parent can live on $39 a day is ... left people incred lus that a Labor government would do this. It is because of the budget situation it can't be restored immediately but you hope it would be as soon as possible. I am glad they have come out and said they were wrong.Any likelihood the Coalition government would be listening on that? You would hope so. It is not the only area of social infrastructure you'd like to repair in this country. There are dozens and dozens of disadvantaged people in this country who would like to provide more money to but when you have been a spend-a-thon and left us $30 billion in dealt, people are harmed. Those people were harmed because of the reckless spending of particularly Kevin Rudd, particularly Kevin Rudd. This is the position we are in today. Is this competition helping Labor? In some ways it is. The great problem will be if the party members vote for Albanese, which you think they are going to do, and the Caucus votes for Shorten, which you think they are going to do because either way the public are going to know either the party or the Parliamentary wing doesn't support the new leader. That as Stephen Conroy and Richardson have said correctly, that is a recipe for disaster for the either stick with the original system or go to a system where it is almost 100% system or go to a system it is almost 100% vote for the party members. Because either one of them having one part of the party and not supporting the other ain't for Labor.Not something the Liberal Party will adopt? No, we are very happy with the processes by which Tony Abbott has become leader and Prime Minister. So no.It seems Clive Palmer is heading to Canberra and taking up to three Senators with him. The self-styled mining billionaire has won the Queensland seat of Fairfax by 36 votes. The close result has triggered a recount, we might not know the final outcome overseas
until next week. Mr Palmer is overseas but did release this short Electoral Commission a national
disgrace that needs to be heavily scrutinised. Jennifer Hewett, this sort of criticism of the Electoral Commission is pretty extraordinary and coming from a winning candidate is probably more so. What do you make of it? It is Clive Palmer being Clive Palmer. I am sick of him already. I know the next three years are going to be worse if he does win the seat of Fairfax. He has Senate candidates. However, in some ways I think it is not the Australian Electoral Commission's fault but I think we have the most incredibly old-fashioned and ridiculous way of voting. Pieces of paper with bits of scrubby old pen and -Pencil.Sorry, pencil. That's ridiculous. It is not the Australian Electoral Commission's fault. We haven't invested in any type of electronic voting, for example, upgraded over the last decades compared to, despite the fact you have all these numbers running in the Senate. Clive Palmer is probably right for completely the wrong reasons.Michael Kroger, how do you think the Abbott Government would be feeling about contemplate ing negotiating with Clive Palmer and his Senators? Better than negotiating with the Greens ...Seriously? Palmer is pro-business. Of course, he is pro-business. It has been the most extraordinary campaign. Here is a man from nothing, 150 candidates in the reps, Senate candidates, run a campaign. That is an amazing thing to do with three or six months notice. To get elected in that seat in Queensland where no-one gave him a chance, to get between one and three Senators elected, that is a phenomenal performance. If I were talking to him, I would say concentrate on the things you do well, not make extreme statements about Chinese spies, corrupt officials in the army and being like Egypt. He should well, how to get business concentrate on things he can do in this country. well, how to get in this country. That's where
he will garner in this he will garner a lot he will garner a lot of support because that's his home because He is batting away from the home turf He is batting home turf when he is talking
about the He is batting away from the
home turf about the other about the other things. People think it is a bit passing think it is a strange. On the strange. On much prefer to deal strange. On the big issues, much prefer to deal with his
much prefer to people than Greens because you know they people than Greens know they are political extremists, if you look what's happened to Tasmania, extremists, if the Tasmanian economy they have sent into the red very badly. Palmer is someone that wants to grow GDP in this country and that's why hopefully his Senators will be of the same mind and that's probably going to be good for the to be good for the country.He is likely to be a little un predictable? Oh very.Would you like to be in there negotiating with him? No, that's why we have the great Eric Abetz and George Brandis, men much more qualified than me to do that type of thing. He is very un predictable except you know on business-related issues, if you put aside all of the flowery rhetoric that surrounds Clive Palmer, you know he is for lower taxes, less government intervention, increase in GDP, getting rid of red tape, reduce ing time frame for permits to get things done in this country, all those generic things people in When
business want to have done. When you get rid of the gloss, that's where his political heart lies. That's undoubtedly got to be good for the Abbott Government rather than dealing with the extremists in the Greens who have an opposing issues.Peter
policy on every one of those issues.Peter Lewis, this win for Clive Palmer will be one of many for minor party politicians. You have done some research to show what Australians think of their new minor party politicians.They are positive. You have been hearing shock and outrage having to deal with
micro-parties in the public having to deal debate. We asked whether it would be good or debate. would be good or bad for democracy, 38% good, 25% bad, 28% make no difference. This is Senators
sight unseen. When the micro Senators start influencing a bit of influence over policy outcomes, attitudes might change, but I sort of agree with Michael. Both Palmer and the extreme micro-parties are more pro-business and it will be in a way mirror image if the Greens push Labor to the left, I suspect these parties will push Abbott and his government to the right where the natural inclination will be to occupy the centrist ground, it may open possibilities to the other side of politics eventually.Next we talk to the man who masterminded This program is not captioned. This program is not captioned. This program is not captioned. This month marks the 30th anniversary of one of Australia's most extraordinary sporting achievements. In 1983, the Alan Bond-backed 'Australia II' over came 3-1 deficit to win the America's Cup and end the 130 years of US domination in the event. Our guest is John Bertrand. With the New Zealanders in tantalise ing teach of victory, John Bertrand has released an update to his 1985 autobiography 'Born To Win'. He has launched a leadership series at Monash University to help develop leadership qualities in young Australians. John Bertrand, welcome to The Drum. New Zealanders are poised precariously to win the Cup, you must be feeling for them. How tough is it likely to be for them mentally? Very tough because the Americans won today's two races and they are on a roll. Before they were dysfunctional but, by golly, they've got their act together and have won a lot of races - still the odds are against the Americans, the Oracle racing team. The Kiwis only have to win one race, the other mob have to win five races - four races. Regardless of that, the Americans are on a roll so it is very interesting.It is indeed. Do you think the America's Cup has lost some of its magic since 1983. It is now so much more high-tech and it doesn't have sump such a national focus? It is true. When we won the America's Cup, it was nation versus clear. You had to be citizen of the country that was challenging or defending. Now it is like a hired gun in the world, like the world of Formula you have a German driver you have competing in an Italian F1 car. I think the next time competing in an Italian F1 I think the next time the
America's Cup I think the next time America's Cup is held, either in the US or America's Cup is held, in the US or in New Zealand, in the US whoever wins, we'll know that in the next couple of in the next couple of days, I think there will be a nationality rule to some degree brought back, maybe 50%. Country versus country is a big deal, particularly for a country like Australia.When you won in '83, you say it changed Australia. How? It gave - this is a summation from my perspective because my perspective because we were halfway around the world doing our thing, remember, but people still remember what they were doing when we won the Cup even 30 years ago. People still stop me in the street to tell me what they were doing. There were new start-up businesses created as a result of that day when people felt that, for the first time, perhaps if they could do it, we can do it. I'm told also there were more people naturalised as a result of that day than ever before or since in Australian history on the basis they were cheering for the same concept, for Australia taking on the world and particularly the US. There was an increase in retail spending from that day onwards. Remember we were going through a tough recession, 1983, we had some tough bushfires and also floods, economically, global recession, the country needed heros I guess it. We came from 3-1 down. Our backs it. We came from 3-1 backs were to the wall. This backs were to country loves the underdog and we represented that, I guess. Then Hawky came on television and said "Anyone that sacked - any boss that sacks anyone today for being late is a bum". I think the Prime Minister gave this country permission to celebrate in many ways.You mentioned there we love an underdog. You also talk about the knocker culture, the tall poppy syndrome. Do you think this is an issue for younger Australians today? It is to some degree. We have lived in the US for quite a while and they talk with pride that anyone can become President of America. It doesn't matter, literally, what colour, where you come from. I'm not sure that we have that sort of value proposition in this country as much and I think we still - we have trouble handling success in many ways and that's where the tall poppy syndrome comes in. The sense of equality, that is a beautiful Australian trait but nevertheless people who pop up and do terrific things in business or whatever, maybe they get hammered a bit more when the tide turns. That's a maturity issue as a country, as a nation. I hope or I think we are growing out of that to some degree. You now teach leadership at Monash University. There are many different styles of leader but is there one essential quality? I think, first of all, I don't teach leadership but I interview some of the great leaders of the world at Monash University and we broadcast that on ABC television. I think, certainly from my perspective, and we see this when I have interviewed the various people so far, that leaders are all about vision. They understand vision and they naturally create vision and people need vision. Then in addition they can actually bring people to the table that want to execute on that vision you might say. So they have great team-building ability. They have great sense of values and culture, no question about that, of trust and integrity. And they have the ability to empower people to get on with the job and pass on their, you might say, not only their knowledge but their gratitude that whatever is being done is being done. They have the great ability to celebrate the journey as it goes through. Leaders have the ability to be flexible when the game changes, the environment changes.In the updated chapter in your book, you are fair ly scathing about recent federal leadership in this country. I'm quoting you here, you say "It has not only been poor but dangerous". Why dangerous? Because we have seen I think in the last government new government now of course - government cycle - we have we saw new government now of course we saw internal bik ering and politicking - bickering and politicking where there has been, as a result, mistakes made when the focus has been taken off the big picture, that is what is best for Australia, not for the internal politics. I think that's been not only counterproductive but I suspect a lot of money has been spent, in some cases wrong direction, in not so much point-scoring but the micro view of the world. To be the leader of this country is a huge responsibility and one is governing for the nation, not just for political point -scoring in some way. That is of concern to me. I think this country - we have seen it over the last couple of years - has been crying out for the concept of leadership. Not just in Australia but around the world but certainly in Australia. We want our leaders to have vision and we want them to be able to empower people..You mentioned the importance of team building, how would you rate our new Prime Minister on that score? There has been a lot of criticism of him for only including one woman in his Cabinet.Well, we hope, we are all in hope, Mr Abbott is going to be a visionary Prime Minister. That's why he has been elected. A big chunk of this country voted this way. Whereas before they voted the previous group in, Labor. I think that - I live in hope as well but time will tell.How do you rate his leadership skills generally? When you are in Opposition, it is air Opposition, it is hard to get
air time so it is hard for this guy to have been able to demonstrate guy demonstrate what he can do. All you can do is be in the negative space because that's the only time you get air time, whether it is on television or print. That's the result of the media, they go to the Leader of the Opposition to say "What's wrong with something?". It is now the Prime Minister's turn to be able to demonstrate leadership and vision and where this country is going. People want that. Not just right across the board, any country, any organisation needs leadership.Talking about vision, another thing you mention in your book was the NBN challenge. We were talking about that earlier in relation to some of the events today but you were on Internet entrepreneur in the 1990s and National Broadband Network
you said the Internet, the National Broadband Network in Australia was a really important thing. I'm wondering whether you think the Coalition's policy is up to scratch, is it a sign of prudent leadership or is it a failure? No, I think it is prudent leadership. The fact is that, from what I can see, there was going to be a massive potential blowout with the existing program getting fibre optic to every home in the country, or to the majority of homes, compared to the technology - the technology is changing and rapidly improving all the time, so I think probably the plan of attack is the right direction. I'm actually comfortable with it because we are still talking about a national broadband system. We are talking about increasing the speed of Internet - the pipes are getting bigger all the time and this system will bring it to the table.We are getting very close to time but you have been approached about a political career yourself, do you regret not taking that up? No, I don't. I have various mentors. The Western mining character he was, I talked to him about this, he said "John, you can make a bigger difference outside government than inside". I think he was right particularly for someone in my position.John Bertrand, thanks for joining us. That's all for this evening. Thanks to lut lut lut, Jennifer Hewett and Michael Kroger and of course John Bertrand. You can check out the Drum online. Join us again same time tomorrow. I'm Eleanor Hall. See you then.

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