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This Program is Captioned Live.Tonight on The World, after the first leaders debate, week two of the election campaign gets under way.Happy to debate this Mr Abbott on any occasion, but so long as you have proper scrutiny which means having panels of journalists and the rest.Both camps claim victory but the Opposition calls foul play.The problem with the PM last night was not that he was reading from notes, it was more that the notes weren't worth reading. That was the problem.Also ahead on the program - fresh concerns about the safety of Narauan locals as new video reveals how last month's riot unfolded at the island's detention centre. A state of emergency in northern Japan where TEPCO insiders teld the ABC the Fukushima nuclear plant has been leaking radioactive water since the disaster in 2011 and some voters in Norway get to ut der the phrase "you'll never guess who was driving my taxi," the country's PM goes Nicole Kidman and behind the wheel to hear people's views.Hello, I'm Jeremy Fernandez. A pledge on gay marriage and claims the PM cheated in the great debate. Last night's face-off gave the leaders of the two major parties something to seize as the election campaign got into its second week. The latest poll shows the Government is still trailing the Coalition, Kevin Rudd says he's not fazed by his underdog status.Who says a debate was blah, blah, one young woman was blown away be it.What you said last night about gay marriage meant a lot to lot of my friends so thank you so much.It's time we did it.Perhaps, but the debate's more likely to be remembered for what Labor calls a storm in a tea cup.And for full disclosure I'm using notes also today if you just take due attention to that consistent with my normal practice of using notes.The debate rules Rudd arrived
stipulated no notes but Kevin Rudd arrived with a folder full. And repeatedly referred to them.To you my fellow Australians drawing on the great strengths of our country as exists now under my prime ministership I to secure Australia's ministership I offary new way future.If you want a new way future.If you want a you've got to future.If you want a new you've got to choose a you've got to choose Government.The Coalition accused Kevin Rudd of cheating.Not for Tony Abbott was the need to have cheat sheets like this.The problem with the PM last night was not that he was reading from notes, it was more that the notes weren't worth reading. That was PM's
the problem last night.The PM's defence -Excuse me, don't spit on the PM.He didn't know his notes were note wothy.If someone had said to me that it was not proper to take notes to a debate then sure, that's fine. I was in receipt of no such advice.The PM pledged to introduce legislation for gay marriage within 100 days of being re-elected but the gambit's unlikely to be a game changer. Campaigns are all about momentum and the polls suggest Labor's could be stalling. The Coalition starts week two with a 4-point lead after preferences.I'm a positive sport of guy what positive set of plans for the country's future and I'm not fazed by any of this. I've been around for a bit mate.Tomorrow Treasury will release the final Budget figures but Tony Abbott's already thinking about the bottom line.No-one however smart, however well educated, however experienced is the suppository of all wisdom.Not what the doctor ordered. For the latest on the campaign I'm joined by Nick Dole in Canberra. What are the leaders up to tonight?Tony Abbott's been pretty quiet all afternoon and evening, he's been in Melbourne today and it appears he's there again tonight so we can expect more campaigning from the Leader of the Opposition in Victoria most likely tomorrow morning. Kevin Rudd for his part after spending most of the morning in Sydney is now in Queensland, he flew into Mackay late this afternoon, and this evening in Mackay he has launched a campaign for the Labor candidate there, her maim is Bronwyn Taha, she's and she's trying to take on the LNP leader who holds and she's trying to take on LNP leader who holds that seat by a slim mortgageain of just over 2%. Kevin Rudd's used part of his campaign, part of his speech, stump speech if you like, to really try to emphasise Labor values and try to make a distinction between the two parties Liberal and Labor. It was one of the more Kevin Rudd
animated scenes we've seen from Kevin Rudd during this campaign, he was emphasising some of Labor's policies particularly with things like infrastructure and the National Broadband Network. Let's hear from Kevin Rudd speaking in Mackay a short time ago.As Paul Keating once said, we make the history, they try and unmake the history. That's the division of Labor between what we do as a progressive party in Australian politics and what the other mob do which is say it's all too hard, let's pull it apart and go back to some mythical point in the past. That's the difference between us and them. We are a party a move. Which has always been look beyond the horizon around the next turn, working out what we need to do next rather than being content with where we are now.Kevin Rudd speaking just early this evening. Despite the lukewarm feeling mixed reception of last night's debate there is talk of future encounters?Yes there is. Of course the one we saw last night which some commentators have described as boring, it was certainly a more traditional debate and Tony Abbott had been proposing at least a couple more revolving around a more of a town hall style debate. One TV network has propoised this and Tony Abbott has agreed to it so really the question is whether or not Kevin Rudd will as well. Kevin Rudd on his way out of that event in Mackay, was asked whether or not he would agree to further debates in that particular kind of style. Kevin Rudd said he's more than happy to debate Tony Abbott but he wants scrutiny not only from members of the public but also from the press gallery. Let's hear from what Kevin Rudd said on his way out of Mackay, he's now on his way to Townsville.I said right from the beginning happy to debate Mr Abbott on any occasion, but so long as you have proper scrutiny which means having panels of journalists and the rest. REPORTER: What does that mean for conditions?It's a bit interesting when you have the Leader of the Opposition say that he'll suddenly do something on a particular night without any prior consultation with us. I've said from day one you want to have five debate, lets's agree for one for each network, one for Sky. One for the ABC, one for seven, nine, ten and let's lay it out as a plan and I don't think we've had much response from him on that so far. So I'm sure you'll talk to all of our - the national Secretary in terms of the scheduling of these things but I'm hope for a debate a proper debate.Let's turn to foreign policy now because the Opposition has been critical of the Government's approach to its vision for the UN Security Council seat?Yes and really it's a lack of vision according to to the Opposition, the Government is taking of course Australia has a temporary seat on the temperature UN Security Council. Julie Bishop the shadow foreign affairs Minister says that essentially Australia haepts been what its goals are haepts been clear enough as to what its goals encounter, of course, what its goals are out of this encounter, of course, Australia
did spend a lot of much on this, it took many, many months and even years of work trying to lobby other nations to get their approval to get Australia on the UN Security Council. Julie Bishop sphras Bob Carr she hasn't really seen enough detail, enough plan, as to where Australia wants to take our place on that council.My criticism of Senator Carr and the Labor Government is that having spent so much money and so much capital to get on to the Security Council, we've heard very little as to what they want to achieve, in fact, I don't know what their agenda is for the Security Council, so I think that they've obviously been distractsed having won the seat, they're just content to sit there.And Australia does begin a one month tenure as the President of the council in September, usually that would mean that the relevant leader in this case, Kevin Rudd would fly to fork, obviously early September is a pretty frougt time, so it won't be open to Kevin Rudd to make the trip to New York, something no doubt he'd like to do but certainly campaigning will have to take priority here in Australia.The I rival of four aslyum seekers in the Torres Strait has staired up the debate over the Government's Papua New Guinea solution. The Coalition says the trick really soon back glad opening up a new people smuggling corridor.These two aslyum seekers are at the centre of a political storm in the Torres Strait. The Coalition says there are bound to be more with the solution opening the floodgates through Cape York.Not only does our border crisis continue does our coming into Ashmore Island, coming across to Christmas Island, coming in the Cocos and Keeling Islands, Kevin Rudd's brilliant idea has Keeling Islands, Kevin brilliant idea has just opened up another brilliant idea has just up another front on the Torres Strait with our northern exposure.Four aslyum seekers were picked up in the Strait in the past few days. the past few days. Two Somalis on Boigu Island on Saturday and two others on a boat near Saibai Island the day before.They then very easily come through the Torres Strait to Queensland and the rest of the Australia, that's what I've been saying these incidents over the last few days demonstrate the real possibility of that happening.The Premier is trying to scare everybody witless about this. There's a very clear message, you get on a boat without a visa you'll get thrown to Papua New Guinea and you'll be processed and settled there.Labor insists there are adequate resources to patrol the Torres Strait, with 13 customs officers based on the islands as well as a team of six in Cairns. The immigration department says the four aslyum seekers will be held in a mainland detention centre before being sent on to Papua New Guinea or Nauru.New vision has emerged showing how the riot at the Nauru detention centre last month was dangerously out of control, as the fire raged dozens of locals responded to a text message calling for volunteers to back up authorities. The rioters had sprayed police and security guards with fire extinguishers and then used them and other on thes as weapons. Eventually police were able to escape the rioters away but many now question the safety of having aslyum seekers within the community. I spoke with the ABC's Kathy McLeish on the island. I asked about what insight this new video has given to the events on the at the night of the that riot?Until now we've seen the damage on the weekend, we were given access and very good access to the detention centre and saw the work that's happened there now. Just how much of it was destroyed by fire. It's quite extraordinary, how much has just gone, but now we've seen the fire and what was going on at the gates on the night.We understand that there has been rising tension in the community since this riot erupted. What's the feeling there now, especially now that the facilities are being expanded as we speak?It certainly has, you know, fuelled concerns here about having aslyum seekers in the community. Just speaking to people around Nauru and people who were there on the night, what they're saying is that they feel is that the detainees are dangerous, they've shown that to the local people, community, one there's
that to the local people, that there's a risk community, there's a risk in their said she can't sleep at community, one lady I spoke said she can't sleep at night
worrying, so it has really raised concerns here and I think there's some move to try and settle that but people, they heard the gas bottles explodeling, they could see that all the way around, right across the island people could see that, there were rumours flying around on the night that aslyum seekers were out in the community, that there was a risk to take safety and then of course the text message calling for men willing and able to assist police to come to be deputised, so you can imagine that it was probably people and emotions were running very high on the night and that stayed with the people here.To what degree are these concerns feeding through to the Government which continues to help build these facilities?The Government is meeting or sorry last week the Government met with community - with the community and held community consultation meetings to explain the new MOU. There's a feeling among some people that we've spoken to that it's all too late to be consumentsing with the community after the MOU is signed or the messageandum of understanding what Australia that will bring more detention - detainees here. A lot of people don't know. That's the
other thing I found. News very light on the ground in Nauru. Information goes mostly passed by word of mouth. There's a local newsletter that the gut puts out. A lot of people don't have access to power or ready access, so a lot of people don't know,s so I think the Opposition is trying to get word out to people, it's trying to get some response, but it's not an easy thing to do here.The year most powerful typhoon has slammed into the Philippines triggering landslides and floodsThere are reports at least 23 fishermen are missing after winds up to 140km/h hit the country's north and east. Typhoon Utor dumped heavy rain and toppled powerlines on the mainous eastern Aurora Province. Weather experts say it's the strongest typhoon global this year with some wind gusts up to 210km/h. Residents in four towns in the region have reported dozens of fishermen not returned home with hopes the men have taken shelter in coves on nearby islands. 500 people evablingated from the area surrounding a volcano which evice-presidented on an Indonesian Island at the weekend. Five people are believed to have die when Mount Rokotenda exploded into life sending ash two kilometres into the air. Palue Island has been on the highest aleader, a red code, since last October when Stynes of volcanic activity were first noticed. Local authorities have prepared tents and shelters for those who have fled their homes. Funerals have been held for the victims whose bodies have been recovered.Workers at the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant have told the ABC that more needs to be done to stop radioactive leaks. Insiders say contaminated water has been spilling into the Pacific ocean since the 2011 disaster. They say unless the Japanese Government takes control of the clean-up, another accident is inevitable.We have to meet in secret because if this Fukushima nuclear worker was caught speaking to me he'd pay a high price. TRANSLATION: If TEPCO knew I was speaking with you I'd be fired for sure. Speaking out is an act of suicide.Mr Fujimoto has watched as TEPCO has failed repeatedly to stop the leak of radioactive ground water with 300 tonnes leaching into the Pacific every day. TRANSLATION: We work at the most dangerous place in Japan and the other day steam came out of the reactor three building but tenno didn't even tell us. I heard about it on those supervising
the news after my shift.Even those supervising the Fukushima clean-up can no longer hide their frustrations clean-up can no longer their frustrations with
TEPCO.These actions indicate that you do not TEPCO.These actions that you do not know what
you're that you do not not have a plan and that you're you're doing, and that you do
not have not doing all you can protect the environment and the protect the people.The Fukushima plant is just a few kilometres up the coast people.The Fukushima plant coast through the sea mist. That's where radioactive tritium, caesium and strontium is leaching into the sea every day. It day. It has many Japanese calling for TEPCO to be sidelined and for outside help to be brought into tackle this crisis once and for all. Suzukisan ask a 12 year TEPCO veteran and former Fukushima site forman who says leak are nothing new. TRANSLATION: I believe it's been leaking into the ocean from the start of the crisis, TEPCO probably knew this but did nothing because they didn't want to cause an outcry.Japan's disgufts pumping in more money to stop the leaks but is show inning no sign of taking charge of what its nuclear watchdog ib describes as a serious emergency.The Israeli Government has approved the building of another 1,000 new homes in occupied Palestinian areas. A senior Palestinian politician said it was a deliberate attempt to scupper peace negotiations which are due to take place in Jerusalem in three days, that charge has been dismissed by Israel.Israel continues to build and plans to build more on the lands its captured in the war of 1967. Most countries see this sorts of construction as illegal under international law, but Israel doesn't. On the settlement issue is one of the most difficult in the whole peace process. Fresh from an announcing one sets of controversial housing projects, Israel's construction Minister paid a visit to another. His parties is flatly opposed to the creation of a Palestinian state. But when we asked if his announcement has been timed to scuper this week's peace talks, he was dismissive. TRANSLATION: I wish it has been announced before. And there will be more to come in the future.After months of American pressure, Israel and the Palestinians have expected to sit down for peace talks in Jerusalem and Jerico in the coming week but on the Palestinian side there is anger now rather than hope.Why? Who does these things? They're determined to undermine the peace negotiation, they're determined to force people like us to leave the negotiating table.Israel's prepare to release a small number of Palestinian prisoners at the start of the peace talks. Thisment is announcement may be timed to reassure right wingers who don't like that concession. The Palestinians just on the other side of that fence say that Israeli development is choking off the scope for them to build a future state here. The prospects for next week's peace talks were never very bright but by putting the settlement issue back in the headlines, Israel's construction Minister has made them a little darker.In Paris more than 200 extra police officers are patrolling major tourist site. It follows a surge in pickpockets and gang attacks. The French Government is trying to reassure tourists that it's safe to visit the capital.With its history culture, Paris is irftable to foreign visitors and where there are tourists there's money. Which inevitablily leads to tourist touts and petty crime. The Chinese are the latest nation to fall in love with Paris but they're under no illusions.When China came to Paris, they got robbed stealed so I have to keep protecting my bag like this.Every time when we report to the the police station, something lost and then police say, "We don't check this report." Like a thief steal from you, no we don't take this report. I don't know why.If there's one thing the city of light doesn't want it's bad publicity. Par sis the third most popular destination in the world among foreign visitors, tourism bridges in billions of dollars every year so it's clear to see why the city wants to preserve its reputation. The final straw came when staff at the world famous Louvre museum staged a one-day strike to demand more protection against gangs of pickpockets. The interior Minister visited the museum and other tourist sites to try to reassure visitors. TRANSLATION: The message is tourists and friends all over the world, come to Paris, the security services are here to make sure your the best possible stay in our country.The police have increased their presence, they hope this will act as a deterrent. They're on the lookout for organised gangs of pickpockets who are often from eastern Europe and for illegal street vendors mostly from Africa.We have many patrols, every day, from theer morning until very late in the evening. until very late in the And we have special reinforcements during And we have reinforcements during the summer to help us to maintain security and summer to help us to security and to prevent thefts and security and to tourists.A patrol spots some illegal vendors selling souvenirs but they're quicker and get away. As in all capital cities there's a big gap between the rich and the poor. And the poor will always be looking for ways to survive. The concerns for tourists safety aren't being replicated in the fake Paris where they've got the buildings, the boulevards and even the Eiffel Tower a developer in China has recreated Parisian style in a housing estate in the wealthy city. The estate features a 108m tall replica of the famous Paris landmark surrounded by mock architecture. The development also features sculptures fains and interpretation of the Arc de Triumphe. An Italian judge who spent years trying to bring to Justice a mafia boss arrested in Britain has told the BBC he's want one of the crime organisations top boss, Domenico Rancadore is within aed in itsly to serve a seven year jail term. He's awatsed extradition from the UK. Zwllt outwardly, this is a quient fishing village. Only the walls do you sense the watchle eye of the Cosa Nostra. These streets were ruled watchle eye of the Cosa These streets were ruled by
RancadoreIn public he was the PE teacher married to the daughter of an Italian din mat though most knew as she knew the truth behind the cover. You don't remember? The code of silence. But the judge who has sur sued him did agree to talk. He invited to us a secret mountain location, though only an hour before the meeting were we finally given the address. Vittorio Teresi knows Rancadore personally, they were childhood friend, one destined to become the mafia gangsters, the other the anti-mafia prosecutor. TRANSLATION: I'm convinced he has information, he was one of the top bosses so I say to the boy I knew as mimmo, come home, come back to Italy, give dignity to your children.They lost track of Domenico Rancadore ul till 2009. That year his father Giuseppe a former boss himself fell gravely ill. They suspected his son would try to contact the family and a wire tap confirmed their suspicions he was living in Uxbridge on a State pension he'd earned as a teacher and the money the mafia was spend sending. Domenico Rancadore his district in the bloodiest period of the history. The low point the murders of judges Falcone and Borsellino. Today their memory survives on the walls of the main court house, there's no evidence that Rancadore has their blood on his hands but thousand thoez who oppose the Cosa Nostra ex, to say the bosses new everything.Even if the Rancadore have never order a murder, anyway, since he is a member of the mafia he could give the permission to kill someone in this territory any time.The flying squad has taken big scalps in recent years, the biggest of them all the god father. In Cosa Nostra a boss never loses his importance to the family, said the chief and so the past always links with the present. Rancadore now faces search years in Jill. The prosecutor says it's hugely important Scotland Yard assisted while suggesting he might not be the only boss that is currently hiding in Britain.The latest Creed.Having a
world weather now with Graham Creed.Having a look at the global forecast and before we head to Australia, Typhoon Utor has moved a across the northern Philippines, we'll have a look at that system in a moments.

The US navy is equipping one of its ships with a weapon only seen until now in science fiction movies. They're testing out a cannon capable of shooting deadly laser beams.The USS serves as key refuelling and staging base for US forces deployed in the gulf. Soon this ship will take on another critical mission - conducting the first real world test of a new defence system called LAWS. That's right. Sailors will soon have a high power laser cannon to protect their ship from attack.It's a lethal system. It can put a hole through a number of things and destroy them.Off as an enemy drone as demonstrated in this test video. Military scientists have figured out how to improve laser's power, ruggedness and beam quality so they can destroy incoming aircraft but the laser's force can be reduced to a non-lethal level. Such as during a hostage taking aboard a cargo tanker.You could give a blast of this laser energy, stop them in their track, they know that you mean business, situation calm, you now are able to take hostages of etc. If it's a terrorist, vessel itself, maybe it is coming and you've given a warning shot and you now know that they're not stopping. Well I can also stop that vessel, I don't have to destroy it.The other factor that excites researchers, its cost. The laser will be plugged into the ship's electrical system and as long as the ship can generate power the laser will have non-stop amination. The cost per shot an estimated $1. At a time of US Government Budget cuts a weapons system that costs little to operate and doesn't need to kill to work brings science fiction to life. Studio sport now with Amanda Shalala and Australia's back in the fourth teth.Thanks largely to Ryan Harris who has produced the fourth teth.Thanks a destructive spell on to Ryan Harris who of the a destructive spell of a destructive spell on day four
of the Durham. Harris has of the fourth Ashes Test aft Durham. Harris has taken four
wickets in the Durham. Harris wickets in the first session
with Durham. Harris has taken four wickets in with England's lead now 294 with England's lead runs with win second runs with win wicket left. Ian Bell z has Harris's first victim, and Matt Harris's Prior immediately Harris's first victim, and followed.Bowled again. What a beauty. First up. Five for Harris.Harris didn't claim Harris.Harris didn't claim a hat-trick but still had Stuart broad out soon after and he ended Tim breeze nan for a career best 7-wicket allIn the women's one off Ashes Test Australia's Sarah Elliott has brought up her maiden Test century. Elliott started day two on 95 and reached three figures before departing for 104. The Southern Stars are now 6 for 310. Jamaican vint sprinter Usain Bolt has re-claimed the 100m title at the world athletics championships. He finished first in rainy conditions. Bolt lost the title two years ago when he was disqualified for a false start.I made a mistake in Daegu, I came here and I corrected that. I just regained my title.Australia's Dani Samuels missed out on that top in the women's discus final. It was won by the Olympic champion. American golfer Jason Dufner has taken out the final major of the year, the US PGA championship. Dufner finished two shots clear of fellow American Jim Furyk. Adam Scott was the best placed Australian in a tie for fifth.Jason Dufner had won eye on the prize coming down the last holding a 2-shot lead and it wasn't long before the 36-year-old tapped many in for the win.Stoic and spectacular.A triumphant embrace with wife Amanda, the ultimate end to a tournament which slipped fingers in twifrl.I come back
from a couple of years ago in

this championship when I lost to Keegan in a play-off to win. It feels really goodPerfect conditions greeted the field for the final round of the an Australian
year's final major and it was an Australian who led the early charge.Here's Jason Day, made a long birdie putting and nine and he's got another one at ten.The fashion place may have thought twice about Jonas Blixt's outfit but he got out of jail with this approach on 12, one of the shots of the day. There was hope for Adam Scott chasing his second major. But the reigning Masters champ was hot and cold around the greens, that bogey on 13 followed by this from the trap on 15 but Scott needed the leaders to falter and they did not. Dufner's confidence was boosted on the 116th when his sand wedge set up birdie.It's perfect.His only rival became the seasoned Jim Furyk, but critically the 43-year-old put his approach on 18 wide. Two years after a spectacular collapse, Jason Dufner broke through for his maiden major win. The Gold Coast Titans have snuck into the NRL's topation following a 24-16 win over the Bulldogs in the their round 22 clash. The Titans needed a win to remain in the finals hunt and two spectacularly thes from Kevin Gordon saw them take a 12-6 lead into the break.He gives it to Gordon, going for the corner and Kevin Gordon thinks he scoredThe Bulldogs tried to keep in touch but the Titans again moved out of reach to replace Canberra in 8th spot on the ladder. Meanwhile Sam Burgess is facing two weeks on the the sidelines after he was charged with contrary conduct. He allegedly grabbed the testicles of Will Chambers during Friday night's clash. James O'Connor is putting all contract talks on hold to focus on securing his place in the Wallabies starting 15 in the rugby championship. O'Connor attracted plenty of criticism while playing atfully half against the Brisbane Lions and new coach Ewen McKenzie has already said he won't be wearing the number 10 in the first Bledisloe Cup Test in Sydney this weekend. O'Connor says he's happy to change positions and half being cut by the Melbourne Rebels he's not worrying about his Super Rugby future yet.I've said, "Look don't bother me for the next two weeks, I want to focus on the All Blacks." If I'm not fully focussed on that it's going to be the same result as we've heard before, if everyone did the same thing so it wouldn't be showing respect to the team if I wasn't on at all times but that's been handled and I trust the people handling itIn tennis Rafael Nadal has hit form ahead of this month's yoep with an emphatic victory at the Montreal Masters. He thrashed Canada's Milos Raonich 6-2 6-2 in the final. To make up for his shock first round exit at Wimbledon.Having the chance to play in come back and win the title is just amazing for me, very, very the
happy. And I'm enjoying a lot, the 2013 season.It's Nadal's 8th title of the year. Women's world number one Serena Williams won the WTA event in Tonto. She beat Sorana Cirstea in straight sets. And back to cricket, Australia will be chasing 299 runs to win the fourth Ashes Test against England.When it comes to election stunts Australian politicians could learn a thing or two from Norway's PM. Jens Stoltenberg swapped his office for a taxi cab to find out the real views of voters.He certainly looked the part, a driver's uniform, pair of sun glasses to hide his identity. But the PM has been struggling in the polls and has also got an election in September and so he agreed to take the wheel wof a car rather than the nation to hear from real people. It didn't take long before some of his customers realised there was something different about their Gabby cabbie. Understandably the conversations quickly shifted to politics, no-one it seems was going to miss this opportunity to tell the PM a thing or two. But high office doesn't guarantee superior eight years voters give him another eight years voters give another turn at the national
wheel, of eight years voters give him
another wheel, of course there are other elections in far away wheel, of course there places to be other elections in far you're next cabbie is called Kevin or Tony, you've been warned.Can't see it happening here. You've been watching The World on a night when the PM says he's open to having another leader's debate but sayses it must be a proper exchange and weather experts say the typhoon that's hit the Philippines is the strongest globally this year with wind gusts mush measuring up to 210km/h. You'll find detail on those stories much more by visiting our website. You can keep up to date on Twitter as well. Stay tuned you can up next the Q & A with Tony Jones.

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Good evening and welcome to 'Q & A'. I'm Tony Jones. Answering your questions tonight - the Deputy Leader of for
the Greens Adam Bandt, Minister for Finance, Penny Wong, Manager of Opposition Business Christopher Pyne, actor, commentator and Kevin Rudd confidante Rhys Muldoon and the Australian Australian's columnist, Janet Albrechtsen, plea welcome our panel, and throw in an extra slice for the group who travelled down from Newcastle to be part of 'Q & A'. Go ahead. (APPLAUSE) . As usual, we're being simulcast on ABC News 24 and News Radio and you can join the Twitter conversation with the hash tag on your screen. The first question tonight comes from Nathan Viles.Thanks, Tony. Both major parties have been accused of using scare tactics to discredit each other's promise to deliver a stronger economy. The real threat t seems, with a weakening resources sector and a budget with limited ability to provide further fiscal stimulus, is Australia's exposure to the global economy. With Labor's revised budget figures, how certain can voters be that Australia will be ready to face another financial crisis.Penny Wong That's a good question. We face it with a from a position of strong. Our public finances are very strong, nearly a million jobs created , but you're right to point out that we're going throo a challenging time and that is as a result of the plateauing and then the coming to the end of the largest investment boom in Australia's history, and so the focus of economic policy now has to be how do we create the new jobs, how do we look to the economy beyond the resources boom, and what is it that we have to do in terms of our investments in infrastructure, in the NBN, in our schools, our engagement with Asia to make sure we can continue to create the jobs of the future and to support the prosperity and security that Australians are entitled.Briefly, you are yet to revise your Budget figures down. Treasury took $33 billion off your estimates in a writedown awe announced on Friday, just before the election was called. Now, doesn't that sort of thing feed a sense of panic about where the economy is going? Well, look, I think it's important to make sure we get to the facts in this debate. I remember that the man who would be the Deputy PM, were Tony Abbott elected, Warren Truss, not that you ever see him, coming out and say ing that likening Australia to Greece, and we hear all the time from Tony and others that Australia is drowning in debt. Now, these are simply not true. We have one of the lowest debt We have one of the lowest net economy. It is a fraction of what debt positions of any advanced what most of the major economies are what most of the economies are grappling w and
we have a what most of the major advanced
economies are we have a AAA credit rating from all three ratings agency and from and there is a reason for that - we have strong public finances. The challenge you raise is one any government would have. would have. Of course I would prefer it wasn't something we had to announce, but those are the facts and vu to deal with the facts.Did you get out all the bad news before the election because some into the pre-election financial outlook, PEFO A great acronym.Is it a great acronym. No, it's part of the charter of Budget Honest that Peter Costello produced and it's produced entirely independently of the government of the day. It is a product Treasury and Finance, and I think the point at which really the excuses that the Opposition are using for not telling you what cuts they have in store, because this have to have them in store if they are going to meet their promises, really the excuses for not disclosing those end when PEFO is released.Christopher Pyne, the original question was will Australia be ready for another financial crisis?I think Nathan asks a very good question because it goes very much to the heart of anxiousness which people feel about the Australian economy at the moment and the lack of confidence that the Government has the answers in the future for managing the economic challenges that we face. When the Australia under the Howard-Costello Government, of course by that stage John Howard and Peter Costello had course by that already started living within our already our means, paying back debt, increasing growth our means, paying back increasing growth and therefore building our means, paying back debt, building revenue, and we were able to weather the Asian financial crisis and give money to countries overseas to help them to do it.When Australia hit the global financial crisis under the Rudd Government, of course they had the legacy of no debt, no deficit, money in the bank, continuing surplus budgets and therefore were able to stimulate the economy from a position of great strength. If the Coalition is to win the next election in four weeks, and I hope that we do, and there is another financial crisis or any other kind of major economic crisis, Labor will not have left us in that position. They will have left us with almost $400 billion of government debt, seven surplus budgets and deficits - deficit budgets - if only they were surpluses.Deficits as far as the eye can see. Unemployment touching 800,000. 10 weeks ago they handed down a budget which was revised Friday week ago and had shown they had gone $33 billion worse in the last 10 weeks which Tony talked about. So, yes, if the Coalition wins, we have to start living within our means. We have a lot of Hardie significances we need make to get Australia back on track again because Labor will be leaving us with one of the worst legacies of any government since the Second World War.Briefly, Tony Abbott has announced from your point of view, and you are the alternative government, so it is worth contemplating this, $17 billion of cuts to the Budget, but there have to be many more billions of dollars of cuts to come, is that correct?Well, Tony announced in a speech to the National Press Club and in his Budget Reply speech $17 billion of savings in order to be able to do things - to a Boll lish the carbon tax, but keep the pension rises and the income tax cuts. That will cost the Budget about $12 billion. So people will get their income tax cuts and their pension rises, but without the carbon tax. And secondly, to fund the company tax cut of 1.5 cents which we reiterated last week that. Will cost about $17 billion, and the savings we announced in May and in January will pay for that.So it's all spoken for?Those $17 billion will pay for the tax cuts, the pension rises and the company tax cut we announced last week.So how many more billions of dollars of cuts to come?Well, tomorrow, as you have pointed out, we have PEFO tomorrow. That might give us a window into the real state of the budget, because honestly - I mean, Penny has been the Finance Minister for three years, the numbers change about every 10 weeks, we have the PEFO tomorrow... (LAUGHTER) Well, it is a fact, they change every 10 weeks. That means we need to examine that and we will announce our full Budget bottom line well before the election, of course, we intend to do that.I've got say... Briefly respond on that. Living within your means is Liberal code for the kutss that we're not going to tell you about prior to the election. And the reality is your promises simply do not stack up. You keep talking about living within your means and getting back to surplus
earlier. The and getting back to earlier. The only way you can do earlier. The only way you do that is if you cut.You
thud do that is if you thud try it, Penny. Living within your means is a great idea. Education, health.You've never done it in three never done it in three years. Education, health, the services that the people in this audience rely on and if you are going to be do that that, you should be telling them.A question on this subject from Deb Carter.AlGiven Tony's refusal during last night's debate to shed any further light on funding for any of his pre-election promises, how soon with we the taxpayers going to wait gf we can get some detail so we can make an informed vote, and I'm hoping it's not the day before ballot. Absolutely and I couldn't agree more.That's very good. Can you give us an answer then?Yes, Deb, I can give you an answer. We won't did what Labor did in 2007 which was the night before the election released their financial bottom line, at 5 o'clock with the polls opening the next morning at 8am.So, will you...We certainly won't do what Labor did At some point will he say Liberal.We won't repeat all the mistakes they've made. We will give everybody in Australia a full Budget bottom line well before Election Day, but we can already tell you, we will abolish the carbon tax, abolish the mining tax, bring back temporary protection visas, the...It's the money people want to know aboutBring back the Australian building construction Costings. Costings. When will the Coalition believe Treasury and the Coalition and when will they not believe and when will they Treasury?We believe Treasury does the best job it can. We don't believe that they're served by a very good government because the Government always changes the goal posts, so Penny goal decided...This is ridiculous..the Government would win Tatt's Lotto, so she spent all the money that the Government would win by winning Tatt's Lotto, and then when they didn't win Tatt's Lotto.Christopher, I will quickly go back to our questioner.One of the worst Finance Ministers in Australia's history.Excuse me. Do you feel you've had an answer to your question. No, I really want some actual detail.(APPLAUSE) Just very briefly in one sentence, how long will she have to wait to get those details?Well, we won't do what Labor did in 2007 the night before the election, when they released it the day before the election. Dear me.PEFO comes out tomorrow. We have to give Joe Hockey and Andrew Robb time to consider what the PEFO says of the it is the last Budget bottom line before Election Day and we will give all of that detail well before the election. But already a lot of detail out there.OK, alright. Don't go through it again. Adam Bandt.To respond to both of those. We've got to set ourselves up in this country for a strong economy for when the rest of the world tells us to stop digging and that will come at some point. You can ask yourself this question: What will Australia sell the rest of the world in 15 years' time? On current settings, people are really only thinking about coal, maybe a bit of uranium, maybe some gas. What we should be doing is taking the proceeds, essentially this once in a generation, perhaps once in a lifetime mining boom and using that to fund innovation, education and research and development, so we have something based on our minds, not on our mines, to sell to the world in 15 years' time and I'm really worried that we are going in the opposite direction. Unless we have a serious discussion in this country about what's the appropriate level of revenue to raise - at the moment under the current Government, they boast that they raise revenue at a level much less than under John Howard. I don't think that's a boast. I think that's a problem. Because unless you raise the revenue, governments have two choices - cut services that we all depend on, or increase the taxes that the rest of us have to pay, and it's time we had a serious discussion about how we will secure this country's revenue base so we can have a post-boom economy based on our brains. We do have a serious discussion....(APPLAUSE) We do have a discussion. In fact, that's what the Government has been focused on a lot and continues to be focused on which is probably why we have the largest investment program in Australia's schools on the table, which is probably why we have more Australian students in university than ever before, and more funding to universities than ever before. I mean, I always like being in the Labor Party between these two, because he says we're too low taxing and he says we're too high taxing, so we're probably about right then.If we taxed at about the same level that John Howard did, that would be an extra $20 billion a year that. Mean you could fund education and schools without having to take $2 billion off universities. That's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Well, that's not correct.We will go to Janet Albrechtsen.The answer to the first question, andly come to the second in a moment was best described by the boss of AMP this week or the past week, when he said that the Australian economy is now more vulnerable than it's ever been and we've basically spent our ammunition and we don't have much to show for it. That's the great challenge for Australia and I think, as voters, woo he need to be expecting more from they get away with a our politicians because, boy, they get away with a lot, and until we they get away with until we start demanding that until they deal with the until we start demanding they deal with the structural
deficits facing they deal with the deficits facing this country,
nothing they deal with the structural
deficits facing nothing will be done. Unless we start saying to Penny Wong and Christopher Pyne, "Tell us how you are going to deal with the you are going deficits, how are you going to pay off the debt," nothing will be done. The problem is actually not for us in this audience. The problem is for our children and the children of our children. They are the onces who will be left paying the debt. I think it's pretty reckless to be endow Dowing on the next generation and enormous bill in terms of what we are facing. Penny, you should try living within your means. The Government has not lived within their means, you have spent more than you are received. You've done it on the forecast that has been consistently wrong. I've been on the last four budgets, you are the $106 billion woman. That's not an accounting error, that's not an accounting error. (APPLAUSE) Let me suggest, that is someone who is not saying, should we be more prudent here? If forecasts are being consistently wrong, should we perhaps spend a little bit less just in case the forecasts are wrong again.I will go back to the floor for a question. Could I not respond to thatYes, you will get your opportunity because this question is on that topic, from Hayden Fraser.Senator Wong, you said that one of the major economic achievements for Australia was avoiding recession during the GFC. However, this seems to be a massive increase in government spending and the last six years since your party formed government, national debt has increased from less than 0 to over $200 billion, and I was just wondering how this is fair for my generation, that we will have the future? (APPLAUSE) .Well, you are right to ask about the next generation and one of the things, whether it's on climate change or on the response to the GFC that has guided us is also thinking about that. If you want to look at a counter-factual, the alternative, if we hadn't have acted during the global financial crisis where we did put - we - the Government put money into the economy, if we hadn't have acted we would have seen 200,000 Australians more unemployed, and if you want to see what that looks like, have a look at some of the nations, particularly in Europe, who have gone into recession and who have extremely high levels of youth unemployment, because the recession hits those least able to afford it hardest, and particularly hits young people, and so the whole point of making sure we did not go into recession and we kept growing as an economy is not just so that the figures are good. It's because that behind the figures are real-life stories, and the real experience of people, and the real experience of unemployment, particularly for young people, that we wanted to avoid, and I again would say I understand that debt is a central issue in this campaign because Christopher and others want to make it so. Because it isI'm happy to have the discussion about it, but I make two points. One first, as I said, our public finances are among the strongest in the world, as can be demonstrated by the facts I outlined earlier. The second is if Christopher says we need to lower debt, he can only do that by cutting more, which comes back to the question earlier, you cannot just simply say that you have to cut more. There is other wayThe economy is growing, but the economy is growing, Christopher, so that's not the out. You have to cut more. In terms of living within our means, we get lectured about we have to cut more, but when we do things like means-test the private health insurance rebate, that's somehow a dreadful thing to do. But that's very important.Christopher Pyne? Firstly, the Labor Party promised before 2007 they wouldn't touch the private health insurance rebate. Of course, just another broken promise from Kevin Rudd. There is another way that Penny has avoided and ignored and that is try to get the burden of taxes and red tape and regulation off business to grow the economy, to give people jobsIt is growing. It is growing. In order to get revenue rising again. The Howard-Costello era was such a great era economicalally because government got out of the way of businesses, it reduced taxes every year,But surely they were riding the mining boom as well. The mining boom has not come to a shuddering halt in this country.Absolutely not. Exactly. It is the latest Labor excuse for why they can't live within their means.Do the Coalition have any responsibility for not maximising the revenue from the mining boom We established the superfund, the $6 billion spent by Labor. $3.5 billion spent by Labor. Health fund spent by Labor, all gone. We left a bank,
major legacy of money in the bank, no debt, surplus budgets, no deficits. Yes, woo he did very well with the mining boom.Did you hear Tony Abbott saying that Labor had killed off the mining boom. Apparently it's still going, you. Look, Australia has not come to you. Look, come to a shuddering halt
because you. Look, Australia has not come to because of the enterprise of
the come to a shuddering halt because the people, but the mining tax has hardly been the people, but the mining has hardly been a boon to the
mining the people, but the mining tax
has hardly been mining industry. The miners are hardly out there saying, "Let's increase that mining increase that mining tax because it has been so great for our industry." The truth is if you get the mining tax off, the carbon tax off, take the burden off business, reduce red tape and regulation, Liu grow the economy again. People will have jobs, less underemployed because one of our biggest problems is people getting less hours at work, more part-time rather than full-time.Adam BandtJust not right. We're paying the price of the cave-in on the mining tax. Treasury, Ken Henry are hardly known as being a bunch of Marxist radicals and along they come and they say, "Here is a once in a lieft opportunity to set us up for the future. Let's have a mining tax." They manage to change a PM and get themselves out of paying $10 billion a year in tax. Adam, you can't tax the country into prosperity.But the investment boom - the investment - we've seen record investment. That face phase, might be coming to an end. The minerals are coming to an end. We only get to do that once. These are minerals that belong to us and we've got one more opportunity left to make sure we can got a proper run for them to set ourselves up for future generations and if we don't do, that you will be facing those kinds of problems for a very long time.Penny Wong, once again, between two extremes of the argument.Well, I'm with Treasury, with Ken Henry. First, I think the firstNothing extreme about smaller Government. Firstly, if you look at what Adam's party - I appreciate you are not a party of government, you don't have to worry about the Budget.Well, give us We are the only responsible party this election. We have put out costed policies. You are the only - you have spent the proceeds of your high ermining taxi think many times over with your spending promises, that's the first thing. The second point I make and this is a very important point when it comes to the Government - the government of the land.They will bring Clive