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(generated from captions) Coming up on 'The Drum', Bradley Manning found guilty of espionage nor giving information to WikiLeaks. Kevin Rudd hires three key guns from the Obama campaign and the fallout after the NSW corruption watchdog recommends charges be laid against two former Ministers. Joining me on the panel tonight, Quentin Dempster, John Stanley and Katharine Murphy. But first, here is Kumi Taguchi with the latest evening. St Kilda has latest news.Thanks, good evening. confirmed that player Ahmed Saad has tested positive to a banned drug. Saad has tested positive banned drug. Saad is reported Saad has tested positive to a banned drug. Saad is as saying he inadvertently took the substance. The as saying he inadvertently the substance. The AFL says it the substance. is not involved in the anti-doping is not involved in anti-doping process, indicating it is still with the anti-doping authority. If the player is charged he would face an AFL tribunal hearing and could be banned for up to two years. NSW police are appealing for public help following the following the alleged indecent assault of a vision-impaired woman in Sydney. A 23-year-old woman has told investigators that an unknown person touched her breast in an elevator at a local train station. The woman then caught several trains and told police she was again touched on the breast during one journey. Investigators have released CCTV images of a man they believe may be able to assist them with their inquiries. He is described as being of Indian appearance, a thin build, and 170 centimetres tall. The PM appears set to increase the tax on tobacco. The Government is considering a hike to the excise as part of the latest round of savings measures to pay for Kevin Rudd's new policies. Mr Rudd was PM in 2010 when the tax increased by 25%, adding $2 to the cost of a pack of 30 cigarettes. The Coalition leader Tony Abbott says the Government's economic mismanagement means it continually looks to increase

That is the latest news. Now it's back to 'The Drum' with Julia Baird.

Julia Baird. This Program is Captioned
Live.

Hello, welcome to 'The Drum'. I'm Julia Baird. Coming up, I'm Julia Labor grapplings with today's Labor damning findings from the NSW corruption watchdog ICAC. Key strategist s from Barrack Obama's presidential campaign join Kevin Rudd's 2013 push for join Kevin Rudd's 2013 re-election. And where does Australia's energy future lie? Our guest will be dick Smith. Our panel tonight, 7:30 NSW presenter Quentin Dempster, radio 2UE broadcaster John Stanley, and Guardian Australia's Deputy Political Our Editor Katharine Murphy. And you can join us on Twitter using the hashtag "thedrum"

using the hashtag "thedrum" .Now, first tonight, to NSW, where the State's corruption watchdog has recommended criminal charges be laid against two former Labor Ministers. The Independent Commission Against Corruption found Ian MacDonald rigged a tender process for a coal licence on lan owned by Eddie Obeid's family, that decision made the Obeid $30 million. Also, the Obeids could make up to 100 million dollars more from another family share hading. ICAC found Ian MacDonald used ininfluence to arrange for a controversial Sydney business man in exchange for the services of a prosty tuft. NSW Labor is trying to further distance itself from the men who were expelled from the party last month. These individuals need to have the book thrown at them. I want to see these people prosecuted and feel the full brunt of the law and if found guilty, serve time.Both men have vowed to clear their names. But in a statement, prosecuted and Eddie Obeid said he wasn't surprised by today's findings. He said...

Ian MacDonald says the ICAC report has left him devastated and distressed. To find out more, we are joined by ABC reporter Jamelle Wells who has sat through the seem of hundreds of witnesses. Jamelle, welcome to 'The Drum'. Quite a day for you. There were three separate inquiries that we heard findings on or had reports on today. For people who are confused, can you talk us through what they were and what the major findings were? The link in all of these inquiries was former NSW Labor Ministers and the main one was the inquiry involving Eddie Obeid and Ian MacDonald, and a mining licence granted over land owned by the Obeid family in the NSW Bylong Valley. Eddie Obeid and Ian MacDonald were accused of conspiring over that licence to defraud the people of NSW of hundreds of millions of dollars. And the ICAC commissioner found that both of them had engaged in corrupt conduct, along with Eddie Obeid's son Moses Obeid. At the inquiry, we heard intricate details of the Obeid's vast business interests right across Australia. now, those three men are being referred to the DPP. But significantly, But coal investors are also being referred to the DPP.Five of them?Well, at the inquiry they were referred to as the magnificent seven, and they included men such as Travers Duncan, one of Australia's richest men and he went to the High Court to try to prevent the Commissioner handing down any corrupt findings against him, but he lost. That was his third court attempt. So those men are being referred to the DPP as well. And it's alleged that they somehow tried to cover up the exact details of this coal licence, their involvement, their stake in it, the Obeid's involvement, and somehow they misled investors.What of the other inquiries, though, into Eric Roozendaal and also the hiring of a prostitute?The prostitute called Tiffany. Well, Ian at an inquiry that started back in 2011 of accepting the sexual services of that's court from businessman Ron Medich in return for arranging business meetings. The ICAC today found businessman Ron Ian MacDonald acted corruptly in doing that, and that Ron Medich and his associate also acted corruptly. In the third inquiry, former Treasurer and roads Minister Eric Roozendaal was accused of accepting a bribe in the form of a $10,000 discount on a new car. We heard that his wife crashed the family car and drove off, and that somehow he was given this discount on a new car by the Obeid family. He was cleared today, but Moses found to have engaged in corrupt conduct by offering him that corrupt conduct that incentive to somehow swing favours for the Obeid family.And were there any surprises in these findings? Eddie Obeid said he wasn't surprised at all, given what he calls the animosity expressed towards him. Well, through the inquiry there was a lot of animosity between Eddie Obeid, animosity Ian MacDonald, the counsel assisting and the Commissioner, and a few times during the inquiry David Ip reminded both of them that they weren't in Parliament. He implored them to answer questions. There were arguments between all of them, and at one point Eddie Obeid was threatened with contempt. So Ian MacDonald and contempt. Eddie Obeid have all along maintained that they are innocent and that they haven't done anything wrong. Not only have these matters been referred to the DPP, but information from the inquiry has been passed on to other departments - the Crime Commission, has Securities and Investments Commission, and the tax office.So what is this going to mean? I mean, do we know at this stage if anyone is going to go to gaol for what was found today?Well, that's up to the DPP, really, to decide if charges should be laid. The ICAC can't charge anyone. If the DPP does lay charges, it will be a couple of years before this matter gets through the courts. it would go, for example, to a Local Court, and then perhaps to a District Court, and in the past not many people have gone to gaol as a result of the ICAC. Now, a couple of people, for example, a recent rail corp employee, had a gaol sentence imposed of about two years, and he appealed against that and lost. And in the Wollongong council, And sex for development scandal, no-one went to gaol. A few people got acquitted on appeal, they had suspended sentences. three
One counsellor went to gaol for three months and then walked free. the main player in that inquiry, Beth Morgan, the former town planner, was described as having engaged in corrupt conduct, but no charges were ever laid against her. So it's anyone's guess, really, what will happen. what will be pressure, I would imagine, on the DPP to act quickly because this is such a high profile case and because so much money has gone into these ICAC hearings that have gone on for well over six months.Right. But could it potentially broad inhere, if months.Right. they are bringing in the tax office, Crime Commission and ASIC, with further documents being poured over with regards to the fiduciary...That's right. In this inquiry it could go a lot further for that reason. And all along there has been speculation tax office will focus on the Obeid family now because of details about Obeid family now because details about things like complex company trusts and details about things complex company trusts way they hid a lot of their complex company trusts and the wealth. This came out at way they hid a lot of inquiry for the wealth. This came out inquiry wealth. This came out at the
inquiry for Now, they are probably not the inquiry for the first time. only wealthy family in Now, they are probably not Australia that does some of that, but the complexity and the detail with which they hid their interest in business ventures has certainly come out, and the Commissioner wasn't very - you know, supportive of that in his findings. He said that Eddie Obeid wasn't a reliable witness. He said Eddie Obeid and Ian MacDonald basically didn't tell the truth and made no effort to.Quentin, you followed this closely for quite some time. What was your your response today?Jamelle has given us a great summary. It is, as you said, a challenge for the prosecution institutions of NSW, because the ICAC is a creature of an act of the NSW Parliament, it's been in existence for 25 years. The ICAC hands these findings to the presiding officers of the Parliament, published by the Parliament, so it be covered by parliamentary privilege and we can report that all of these people have been found to be corrupt. They have their rights at law, and their lawyers are now looking at it. It becomes a huge challenge for not only this jurisdiction, but Federal agencies and enforcement and prosecution agencies. The securities and investment commission, the tax office, because they point all to this evidence, that's all going to be handed up to them. The other significant thing that Jamelle touched on is that the Crime Commission, NSW has a Crime Commission which has special powers to go in and confiscate the assets, money and assets, suspected to have been derived corruptly or through criminal nalty. The ICAC Commissioner points out that the criminal assets recovery Act, 1990, will be applied so all those adversely named may well get a demand, a letter of demand or a court ordered instrument of demand on their assets pending this. So...You can imagine the scenes of the confiscations of those asset sIt happens to Bikies, motorcycle gangs, they take their boat, fast car, bikes and their property. This can happen to these people because that's what the powers that exist under the state legislation.The response clearly indicates that the fight isn't over yet. That's right. I think what we can see from these reports, we know what motivates them, it's money. They are not in there for any public service. All these people in this report are motivated by money, so if you are talking about throwing the book at them, the book that they'll be most frightened of I think is probably the tax act, which is a very big book. This is where they are going to start to look at their business. At the Herald, they did some fan it is particular work - fantastic work exposing a lot of this. You get the tax office start to beaver into this, you just wonder what they could turn up. I think it's important to say the ICAC, which has done some good work and not so good work over the years, Judge male mentioned the - Jamelle mentioned the dirty sexy money, the Wollongong corruption, I know you are going to get to the political impact of this, but the ICAC has forensic analysts, it has financial accountants, specialists in the field and they have been able to trace this. This has cost millions of dollars of extra resources that the Government has put into this, and I noticed Jamelle, did you see that the ICAC says Operation Jasper, which is the Mt Penny one, came from a confidential informant. Did you see that?Yes. Of course we will never know who that was, (a), you better have a look at this, Eddie's family's got property in the Bylong Valley. In relation to the ICAC Act, all that work that was done, how much of that is then going to be able to be given to the DPP and then...I just want to bring Katharine Murphy in here. Quentin just gave us a long list of resources that every journalist would cream of and yet one of the - dream of and yet one of the figures key to this whole inquiry, or the series, was Kate from the 'Sydney Morning Herald', who I think Eddie Obeid called a gun mole with glit ring associations with the not so well to do. Do you see it as a significant moment, at least in Australian journalism, which is currently quite strapped for resources and some of the key mast heads? It's a reassuring moment in the sense that investigative journalism is continuing in this country despite the commercial difficulties that a lot of media organisations face. Of course, Kate is one of the standout investigative journalists in this country, and a lot of this information has come to light courtesy of her efforts. So it's a reassuring moment, but it would be nice if there were more resources for investigative resources for journalism more generally, wouldn't it. Katharine, it's a 15-year investment in Kate McClimand. I think McClimand. I think they were sued at one stage, and Fairfax had to pay out. They stayed on the case. But it's the coercive powers, from Queensland, from the wood Royal Commission, if the coercive powers that they have to demand documents, seize documents and demand attendance - these corruption inquiries, when they are properly motivated, can get there, can get as close to the truth. You can never get the complete truth, you need audio cameras and surveillance to really get the probative evidence to prove corruption.In a moment I just want to get to some of the implications for the Federal Labor Party, but what did you make of the responses from the State Labor Party today?Well, as par for the course, John Robertson, the Leader of the Opposition has been trying to get ahead of it. You can't get ahead of it. Kevin Rudd today, you have seen him expressing his ready vultion and said add -... this reminds everybody of the culture that certainly has existed and everybody suspected may exist in the NSW branch of the Labor Party.

the Labor Party. So I don't think there is anything they can say, you've asked the anything asked the question, we are all asking the question shall and the public is asking the question, who is going to gaolWhat happens next. Thank you very much, Jamelle, for joining us on 'The Drum' to talk through some of those issues. I know you have been reporting on this for a very long time now, so thank you. Given we could only be days away from the start of the electoral campaign, the question we have been discussing is how will these findings affect Federal Labor? Today, PM Kevin Rudd pointed out that he has already moved to reform the NSW branch of the party.

party. Anyone who is responsible for illegal or corrupt behaviour should face the full force of the law. Further, I would say, the it was for no idle reason that I took a virtually unprecedented step of directing Federal intervention in the NSW branch of the Labor Party. This set of reforms are anchored in one core principle - zero tolerance for corruption. But Tony Abbott has described today as a black day in the history of the Labor Party. He says Mr Rudd can't separate himself and Federal

Kevin Rudd is trying to wash his hands of this by saying, "I'm appalled by corruption" yet he has been the beneficiary. He has been the beneficiary of the NSW Labor Party's activities. He is only there because the NSW Labor Party has put him there. The NSW disease has well and truly come to Canberra. It's calling the shots in Canberra.Katharine, you wrote a terrific piece for the 'Guardian' on exactly this matter. What do you make of the Coalition kind of tarring Kevin Rudd with the NSW ALP's problems and, in particular, I think Joe Hockey said that Kevin Rudd was NSW Labor through and there? Well, it's exactly what they would do. with some justification on this basis - that it took Federal Labor far too long to take steps to distance itself from the activities in NSW. And arguments that people didn't know what was going on, or it was all mirky or unclear are just not credible. Julia Gillard - I think I wrote today, it was a failure of political judgment and a failure of principle leadership, in my view, that steps were not taken earlier in order to send a message that this sort of behaviour is not this sort acceptable to the public and to people in the Labor Party. so that's that. I mean, obviously people there is no - no credible suggestion that I'm aware of, of any direct Coalition of any direct linkages, but the
Coalition would, given the importance of NSW in importance of NSW in the forthcoming election, do
everything it

these sorts of issues on everything it can to contest these sorts of issues on the ground in NSW. Certainly Labor federally has sort of been planning this, really, for the last several months. They have known that this report was to be handed down. The party obviously needed to position itself for that eventuality and what Kevin Rudd has done is to actively distance Canberra from Sydney in relation to this issue.Do you think he's done that effectively and do you think that he's done enough to - are the reforms so far enough? Well, no, probably not. But he's indicated that he's prepared to do more. Obviously we should say, Julia, that due process needs to take Obviously its course, but, no, I think obviously the Labor Party has a cultural problem and a cultural problem can only be dealt with in a very forensic, serious way. So Kevin Rudd's telegraph that he intends to do more, I think he should do more, and the Labor Party should be serious about trying to stamp out this sort of behaviour. but certainly Kevin Rudd is a credible figure to go to war with his own party. He's not an institutional man. He's benefitted, as Tony Abbott says, from institutional doubt
machinations - there is no doubt about that - but he certainly the Labor Party's most credible figure to go to war on those institutional issues.Right. I guess the question is how hard issues.Right. I guess question is how hard will this hit the Labor Party at the next election?I guess the issue hit the Labor Party at the election?I guess the issue is
whether it's already factored in, because it's been such an issue in NSW over the last couple of years, Nathan Rees, he said he thinks it is two to three per cent off the primary vote.Actually, I think we have a grab of him somewhere saying that. Let's go to that now. that. He did say corruption will have an impact on Federal Labor. I estimated it's worth about 2 to 3% primary vote. There is no way in the world that I can imperfecticly demonstrate that, but I make it my business to talk to lots of people in my electorate and around NSW, and this issue emerges time and time again. The infamy of the characters involved has spread into the Federal sphere and the election campaign.

election campaign. Yes, as you were saying. It did have an effect on public policy. It wasn't just people engaged in corrupt conduct. We had Morris Iemma, he lost the premiership because of the Obeid faction. Nathan Rees was there. From the moment Rees decided he was going to turf Ian MacDonald out, he was campaigning furiously to get his job back. When Rees lost his job, Christine restored Ian MacDonald to the ministry and she had to punt him. We saw this, you can actually draw time lines of public policy, of changes that were made, money that was wasted, as a direct result of the activities of these people. None of it, for the public good. I think they have a lot to answer for.Do you think it's already been factored in, as John is suggesting, Quentin?I agree with Katharine - I was when all this was breaking, that the then PM didn't move. To move would be to move against the faceless men, and NSW disease, more assertively from her Prime Ministership and it just sort of wound into Kevin Rudd trying to use it as countermeasures, getting on the so-called Federal so-called in the NSW branch, which I don't really think is a Federal intervention, it's a 30-day suspension and there are some rule changes, and what have you. It's a symbolic gesture trying to counter it, knowing this was coming up. I was really surprised that Julia Gillard didn't move to try to separate the Federal party from the NSW disease.As Kevin Rudd has scrambled to do. Katharine?I just think it's sort of a bit of a test and it's a testimony to the fact that she was weak in terms of - I don't mean that as a character observation, I just mean her Prime Ministership was weak. She felt, I think, quite hunted throughout her Prime Ministership, so I think the reason she didn't intervene is largely attributable to that. But it doesn't excuse it. And I think the failure, as I have said, is on two levels - there is a lack of political judgment in terms of stepping back seeing the wood for the trees and the damage that this would inflict on the party as a whole, and then there are issues of principle which I believe politicians should stand up for points of principle, and improper and corrupt behaviour is a fairly fundamental issue of principle.

fundamental issue of principle. What of Tony Abbott saying he will introduce legislation to combat dodgy union ofilm - officials. Is that going to stick?I think there is resonance there, we have the Craig Thompson, issue. You have the former national President of the Labor Party facing charges, Craig Thompson in court. There is a pretty bad track record in terms of the unions so I think he has some resonance there. I think that's something he will hammer pretty hard.What do you think, Quentin, also of Tony Abbott's further charge that Kevin Rudd needs to seriously interrogate those members of his team who are implicated in some way with the Obeids from Tony Burke to the Obeids from Tony Burke Bob Carr?He should, and as we have discussed, as Katharine said, it's these countermeasures that he's announced don't go far enough, and I don't think they will solve the political problem. . Only time and greater effort will solve that. Tony Abbott is doing what you'd expect him to do to say that he was a beneficiary of the faceless men at various times in his political career, always you had to go to the NSW branch to see if you could get their support from the Labor right to enhance your career. Kevin Rudd certainly did that in constructing his career over the time, including his most recent return. The state secretary,s I see, is looking like running for the Senate. And he's meant to be suspended, along with all the other admin committee in NSW and the so-called Federal intervention.It's not something that's going to go away very quickly at all. Let's talk about something the ALP is doing during this protracted election appeared period. The Labor Party flew in three key advisers from Barrack Obama's 2012 presidential race. Kevin Rudd's team will be helped out by social media whizz Matthew McGregor, veteran campaigner McGregor, Joon Kim and Tom McMahon.

The Obama campaign successfully mixed social media with old-fashioned door nothing and phone calls and it seems Labor hopes more of the same will help return Kevin Rudd to the lodge. Katharine Murphy, do you think that's true? Do you think it is a wise strategy?It's always nice to, during campaign periods, see these various people from overseas arrive here, and obviously people in Australian politics observe and participate in election campaigns overseas - that's obviously a really good thing. People can share expertise, and brick that into local campaigns. So it's a great idea. look, the Obama operation was massive, incredibly well-funded, it involved all sorts of things like micro targeting, their social media strategy was amazing, of will have terrific incite that is he can bring to the Labor is he can campaign, but can they replicate that apparatus in five minutes? I seriously doubt it. In terms of the social media stuff, though, obviously this will be a very interesting element of this campaign for both the interesting element campaign for both the mainly parties - major parties. I think we have seen Labor sort of dabbling in this self-publishing and
self-promoting space via social media for a little while. So it will be quite interesting to see how this manifests during the campaign. John, how do you think an American presidential campaign can translate into an Australian - not quite presidential, but PM yal. They have voluntary voting and we have compulsory voting. There is a significant proportion of our electorate disengaged but still votes. Maybe the only contact they will have through social media, so it could be effective there. Having said that, , in terms of importing someone, with social media, the idea that they know more than we do, the most successful viral ad over the last year that won a whole range of awards at the Cannes festival for advertising was the dumb ways to die, for a Melbourne tram. That was done by a group of Australians. Maybe if you know your market, you can do it a little bit better. It got them a good headline. Just the fact that they have the story today, they have the Americans and Obama, it associates them...Youth and energy. Makes them look hip.Impetus. Chilling out, getting on social media. Please, don't laugh at me.I'm not laughing at you, I was talking about...I'm talking like Kevin. That's how Kevin talks.I was talking in return. I was taking about the Labor Party being hip.It was not you, it was being hip and chilling out. Quentin, one thing Mr McGregor's known for is instant videos on social media, satire but also ridicule. Is this something that is missing or would be effective here? It's very entertaining, if you can really take the Mickey out of your opponent and hold them up to ridicule, and building up the viral nature of some beauty - very great piece of wit or satyre, at least we won't die at our desks of boredom, of the typical to and fro of Australian adversarial politics.That would be great, wouldn't it?It the social media is changing it, but Anthony Green at the ABC, he goes immediately to the pendulum and - this is a marginal seats battle and like to see what our dear
American friends like to see American friends have to say when they have to apply social media to marginal seats and get those people media to marginal seats get those people in marginal get those seats. The democrats and the republicans in the US, seats. The democrats and republicans in the US, they got to get them republicans in the to get them to turn out to vote. We have got to get them to turn out vote. We have got compulsory
voting, we are vote. We have voting, we are already turning out anyway. But Tony Abbott, he's got he's got 73 seats at the moment. Labor has 72. Those independents are gone in NSW, that will go back to the Coalition. A couple of seats go to the Coalition in Victoria, maybe one in Tasmania, Kevin Rudd's got to win more seats in Queensland to off set those stand at the moment to get across the line. Social media is all about momentum and Keating said if you don't have momentum, you're stuffed.It's much more broad brush stroke, they are talking about the youth demographic, trying to energyise various types...As energyise far as women's votes go, Tony Abbott came within two seats of winning the election last time. Australian women voted for Tony Abbott - everybody thought they wouldn't, but they did. So that's not much of an issue for Tony Abbott now.You don't think there will be a gender gap issue in the selection?Misogyny, do you think it workedWe haven't had this discussion since Julia Gillard left as PM. Do you think it worked in the western suburbs of SydneyThere are other ways to talk to women aside from misogyny - paid aside from misogyny parent at all leave... - parental leave...The Labor Party may well be ahead on those issues.We'll wait to see what kind of Obamafication happens to the Labor Party. Over to something else in America, the US soldier has been convicted of 20 counts of espionage. Private Manning Manning now faces a maximum of 136 years in prison. However, the former army intelligence analyst was found not guilty of his most serious charge - aiding the enemy. WikiLeaks founder Julia Assange was outraged by Bradley Manning's conviction. He's accused the US of declaring war on whistleblowers. This is the first ever espionage conviction against a whistleblower in the US. It is a dangerous precedent and an example of national security extremism. It is a short-sighted judgment that cannot be tolerated and it

It can never be that conveying true information to the public true isses passage.Katharine Murphy, jantion is saying this is a dangerous decision. What do you think the implications will be?He has certainly avoided the most serious charge, that's true, but he still faces. Wha. Did you say, 136 years in prison.Yes. I don't know that you'd be ready Joycing if you were the individual concerned. There is this very interesting dynamic, though, as a result of whistleblowing and the reaction of States to whistleblowing that Julia Assange is obviously tapping into in this political sense, in terms of raising this as an issue. So the implications, I don't know, it will be quite interesting to see how the WikiLeaks party goes in the Australian election. I'd just say that as an aside. That might give us a bit of a barometer as to whether or not there is a means of coalescing this politically. It might cause some whistleblowers to think twice, although there is this tie tannic struggle going, as the Edward Snowden stuff reveals as well.It is a whopping gaol sentence. It has to be a deterrent of some sort, but what also of the media?The media has to risk manage its informants. If you do get - you are a beneficiary of you are a beneficiary confidential State secrets like this, confidential information and consequences for those who consequences for those who are discovered are dire. discovered are dire. I think that will really exercise the minds of journalists about if you - what you do to protect your informant. There are books written about Bradley Manning and his relationship with WikiLeaks and how it all came out and how he was discovered through that process. so any time I've been raided by the police, or my office has been turned over by police looking for information, I've been desperately worried. I just don't want anybody to be hurt as a consequence of public interest disclosure that they may be making.Journalists could be pulled into this as well, not just the whistleblowerers. Of course, easily. Particularly on national security issues, nothing will stop journalists from being called in. We are trying to get shield, the international journalists are trying to get shield protections, we are moving towards that in Australia. towards There is some benefits that we are getting, some people acknowledge that the public interest disclosure is important in democracy, but in the battle on terrorism post 9/11, national interest - the security interests come first and that's why the President is able to say, "We're going to prosecute". Quickly before we go, what does happen, then, John, with the revelations that Bradley Manning initially came out with - the apatchy helicopter attack, the shooting of civilians, I mean, we seem to forget...They are important. They are important revelations which does I think conflict us all. There is a lot of stuff released that I think even if you are a supporter, as I think we all are, of the right to know, there is information that could compromise people and it shouldn't be coming out. How to get it out?You are conflicted there, because there is too much secrecy, it is good that we have whistleblowers, we need to protect them and journalists need to be protected in accessing information and protecting their sources, line that's got to be drawn. I think we have still got to debate where that line has to be. I think the Americans have drawn that line too far in the direction of secrecy.Okay. Next on 'The Drum' we'll talk to dick Smith about his new documentary on Australia's
energy future.

Closed Captions by CSI.

This program is not captioned.

Australia has been blessed with an abundance of natural resources - coal, natural gas and iron ore have poured our homes and, of course, fuelled our mining boom. But it's not all good news. We are also grappling with rising power prices, hefty petrol bills and a rapidly expanding carbon footprint. Our guest is one of Australia's most colourful business men - a retailer, publisher and now TV presenter. He hosts a new documentary on Australia's energy future. It airs on Thursday, at half past 8.

rising.
$9.90 a litre, and still rising. Is this really Australia's energy future?

Petrol prices, rolling blackouts and skyrocketing electricity bills. Power bills are set to soar from Friday. We haven't used the heater all this winter. .We have reached an energy cross-roads. As our economy and population grows, so does our thirst for power. Australians are some of the world's greediest energy users
with world's greediest with the carbon footprint to match.

Dick Smith, a greedy energy users and a Dick Smith, a users and a thirst for power.
Can you explain Dick Smith, a greedy energy users Can you explain the case that you're Can you you're building in this
documentary? Can you explain the case that documentary? Mainly the fact that we have taken for granted that we have taken for this incredibly cheap fossil fuel era and we this incredibly cheap fuel era and we have benefitted fuel from it colossoly. I think the world economy depends on it, now we are in doubts about what we are doing to the climate but most importantly the high density fuels, which are oil and gas, they are going to become more and more expensive.As they become part of our export markets as well?Absolutely. People are saying that we should have two different prices - one export price and one local price. I can't see how you can do that in a globalised world - not possible.Quentin is shaking his head. Well, you can't. Do you go into the peak oil argument?Sort of, what it says is that oil's going to become far more expensive to get out of the ground and that's going to effect us enormously. I go to the western suburbs, a family who uses a car to drive huge distances, that's going to change.You go into public transport, into the alternatives?No, because...Reshape society...All I've said is we need visionary Government to start doing these things. By the way, I look at nuclear power, I'm not as negative about...Did you change your mind while you were doing this documentary?To a certain degree. I changed my mind about a number of things. I have not liked wind power because it wrecks the landscape but then I found in Port Augusta the coal poured station is closed for six months of the year, so I can see an advantage there. When it comes to nuclear energy, as a kid, 20-year-old, I'd gone into the nuclear power staying in the UK when it was a complete non-issue. I was shown around, so I have never had the fear that most people have had.After Fukushima?Well, my suggestion is if we go to build a nuclear power station, we don't build it on an earthquake fault. Look at France, 80% nuclear. You never hear a word, they reckon they make the best wines, the best food, and nuclear. it is completely nuclear poured ed.What about concerns about what happens to an ageing nuclear power station?If it is compared to putting pollution into the atmosphere, maybe it's better to store it in a shed in a nuclear way rather than put the carbon into the atmosphere. These are the things we have to decide. A lot of the arguments I see these days about the nuclear issue are more along the lines of being an economic issue, whether we can fund it and get it up and running quickly enough. Absolutely. That's the main finding I found. At the present time I said we'll probably just remain adingted to coal and fossil fuels because it's soo dam cheap. If we want to move away from that but still continue to use the international like we do - energy like we do, we have to go to nuclear. If we are worried, we can go to solar, but the costs are staggering, it's unbelievably expensive. We haven't worked out a cheap way of storing solar power when there is no wind or sun.Didn't you look at industrial scale solar, like in Spain, where they - a they are months flask over - thermos flask overnight?At the moment they are only stored for about 30 hours and you need days and days and the cost is way above anything we are getting now. Look, nothing compares with fossil fuels. I stand in Gladston, where the ships are going out 55 million dollars going worth at a time, it is going to take us a lot to stop being addicted to this.You talk about a lack of political vision already, which are the parties does have the best policies to deal with the question of energy?No-one does. To try and get in a democracy people to sacrifice now for the future, as I show, I'm one of the greatest individual carbon users in Australia. Now, if I stopped flying my helicopter and my plane, if I thought it would make a difference, I'd do it. But I don't think it would make any difference an individual doing something. The problem is to sacrifice now for something that may or may not happen in the future, it's not within our genes. We came from the Hunter gatherers of the the planes of Africa, where we responded to an instant threat. That will be the problem with That Governments being visionary.Aren't you also looking at - you mentioned your own use, aren't you experimenting with planes that run on waste and so on?Yes, showed that. In fact, I bought myself an electric car. Interestingly bought it it Interestingly enough, when bought it it said bought it it said zero carbon. I put solar cells bought it it said zero I put solar cells on the roof, and I put solar and a battery bank, so it's completely solar. Here and a battery bank, so completely solar. Here is the completely solar. catch - it works out double the cost per kilometre than my petrol car. In effect, you have to be wealthy. That will be so for a long time because coal and oil is so cheap.Madam chairman, can I ask a question? Very quickly. Do you know into other cost factors? An ETS, where do you stand on that? Don't even look at those things, because how can you cover them in 55 minutes.Very succinct answer. That's $10 a litre, airing tomorrow night at half past 8. Thanks for joining us on 'The Drum'. Thank s to our panel, Quentin Dempster, John Stanley and Katharine Murphy. You can check out 'The Drum' at Dempster, John abc.net.au/thedrum. We'll see you tomorrow night.

you tomorrow night.