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(generated from captions) Hi, I'm Julie Baird. Coming up on 'The Drum', the Coalition appears to have edged back in the polls. The Greens borrow a phew of Tony Abbott's ideas for their paid preb at all leave scheme and the world welcomes a new baby. Joining me, Simon Banks, Annabel Crabb and Julian Leeser. First, here is Kathryn Stolarchuk with the latest news.These are the stop stories from ABC News. The stories Catholic schools signed up to the funding plan. The agreement will see the Catholic school system get roughly $1.6 billion in extra funding over six years. The national Catholic Education Commission says it is confident no Catholic school will be worse off under the deal but Mr Rudd is yet to convince Victoria, Queensland and the NT to sign up to the Queensland and the up to the plan. For the first up to the plan. For the time, Defence Force personnel sexually abused will be able to take their complaints to an sexually abused will be able independent office that will take their complaints to provide them with support. The new unit will allow victims to new unit will allow victims report incidents confidentially. An audit of the treatment of women at the Australian Defence Force academy has also been released. It found the Defence Force is making progress in changing its culture, but that more work needs to be done. The world is waiting for the first glimpse of Britain's new Prince, congratulations have flooded in from around the globe since the news that the boy, weighing 3.8kgs was born in the early hours of this morning our time. The Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says he'll be sending the Royal baby a Mem Fox book and naming a bilby enclosure after him at Taronga Zoo. A wish list of possible designs for a revamp of Melbourne's Flinders Street station has been unveiled. Six interpretations of how the historic station could be updated have been chosen but the Victorian Government says works are not likely to start for at least a decade, as there is no funding committed. and that's the latest news, but now it's back to 'The Drum' with Julie Baird.

with Julie Baird. This Program is Captioned
Live.

Live. Hello, welcome to 'The Drum'. I'm Julie Baird. Coming up, the Greens copy the Coalition for a large part of their paid parent at all leave scheme. The Opposition Leader accuses the Government of using foreign aid as a free gift. And has Defence improved its treatment of women? We'll find out with a sex discrimination Commissioner, Elizabeth treatment Broderick. Our Simon Banks from Hawker Briton, Broderick. Our panel tonight,
Simon Banks host of 'Kitchen Cabinet' Annabel Crabb and host of 'Kitchen Annabel Crabb and former Liberal adviser Julian Leeser. You can join us using the you can join us on Twitter using the hashtag "thedrum". First tonight, could the effects of tonight, Kevin Rudd's return already be starting to wear off? The latest poll has the Government down two points on a two-party preferred basis although it must be said that the change is within the margin of error. latest Kevin Rudd's approval rating has fallen slightly and Tony Abbott seems to be gaining as preferred PM. The Opposition Leader thinks Mr Rudd is beginning to lose his appeal with voters. The Australian people had a good look at him last time, they were preparing to vote him out of office when the faceless men pre-empted them and put Julia Gillard there. Yes, there may have been a bit of sympathy over the manner of his brutal political execution the first time around, but I think they are seeing more and more that it's the same Kevin Rudd. The Deputy PM insists the Government isn't at all interested in polls. Labor is in a competitive position in the polls. Whether polls go up a point or down a point is neither here nor there. What we are focused on is the national interest. Neither here nor there, Simon. How do you think these polls are booef received by the - being received by the ALP at the moment?I don't think anyone is particularly worried about it. Neither here nor there.So philosophical. I'm going to make a broader point about opinion polls, which is the one advice I always give people when it comes out, whether it is good or bad, don't ride the wave, don't try and surf the immediacy of it. There are two opinion polls out today, one had the Government going back from a fifty-fifty position, putting the Coalition in front 52-48. That was the news policy. But essential, which has a slightly larger sample and uses a slightly different methodology had it coming in from 52 to 51 to the Coalition. Neilson has it at fifty-fifty.

Now, you know, like we saw during the US presidential election, Nate silver made his reputation, basically ab ra abrogating the polls. My view, looking from the outside, is that's exactly what you do - you polls, look at the you look across all of these that they represent, if polls, look at are within the that
polls, look at the broad trends that they represent, are within the marijuana inof - margin of error, too excited. One point, one of the big games that Kevin Rudd got by coming back to the Prime Ministership really is encoded in the results we are now seeing. I think we are going to now see the traditional foot slog between Labor and the Coalition right up until election day.Annabel, you are a big fan of polls. I think they are excellent, very helpful.Do you think there is any significance, or are we reading tea leaves, can we bring in Nate silver who, by the way, was correct. I don't argue they are insignificant. I think they are massively significant in the way politicians make decisions. I don't think it was massively an accident that the big rah announcement on Friday was made on a Friday when news poll was in the field, I don't think that was accidental. I just think that if everyone can just wean themselves off a tiny tiny bit, it would probably make for a more sensible state of affairs. Look, you know, they are influential. They influence a huge amount of the timing of various decisions that are made. One of the nice things about this year, up until a couple of weeks ago, was that we had a poll date, there was none of that...It swing
was nice for us. Is there a 2% swing here, should we have an election, should we wait. That sort of stuff that happens before elections are called, that causes everybody extraordinary amounts of suspense, grief, pain and eventually just wanting to hit yourself in the head...Are you advocating fixed dates for election?I really like September 11. was fine. September 14 is the only date that was fine. only date that it definitely
won't only won't be now, because it couldn't go back to that, that would just look awkward and wrong.I want to come back to the question of the date. Before we do, Julian, how did you interpret the polls today?I think you have to look at it in the context of the broader narrative. People have clearly stopped listening to broader Julia Gillard, so there was a period where there was a massive gap between the two parties. They restored Kevin, the second coming of Kevin, if you like. He has been the - become the leader, started to do a few things, the polls have kind of tightened up to where they would normally usually be. Whether the newspoll is significant or not, is not entirely clear because it is within the margin of error. I thought the Government very badly handled the FBT issue and they copped a fair bit of stick from the usual groups that would be interested in that - obviously the car industry and a number of the others that would have flowed down from there. I think the jury is still out a little bit on the PNG question, although the Government seems to be doing a little bit better around asylum seeker issues. They had a seeker issues. They had a long way to come back from. I think we are back to a normal ty of politics.After the big bump. That's a very bold description of it. I suppose that's a - a normality of opinion polls, at least.I was interested to see least.I as well in the Australian today, the bump in the polls has got nothing to do with Kevin Rudd's performance, it's all about euphoria at having got rid of Julia Gillard. I think there is a lot of truth in that. It just seemed that think there people had stopped listening to her and this was the bloke we always wanted as PM, why haven't you given him to us.Annabel, would you agree with that?I just think it's mad to kind of - I mean, this is the thing about numbers. In order to make a story out of numbers you have to come up with some idea as to why a certain number of people have changed their mind about it. I mean, people, commentators - we are all guilty of it from time to time - read into movements what they think is the reason behind some group movement. You can get ridiculous with polls,You are not trying to do the press gallery out of a job? I just think it's one of the odder areas of commentary. It involves a lot of creative thought. The role they played in Australian politics, I agree with both panelists tonight, there is way too much of an emphasis in the general commentary about what they mean - particularly when you are just getting movements within the potential margin of error. The average Australian who is out there, particularly those who are going to decide this up coming election, they wouldn't opinion
have even known there was an opinion poll out today or what the numbers said. They'd be much more worried about other issues. I think we can sit there and micro analyse a lot of this data, but there is a issues. sort of ongoing sort of trend. I think the Australian people do want a contest in the election. They now have it. I think we'll of a traditional fight between the two major political parties - essentially Labor talking about how it's going to help you out in your life, ease some of the burdens. The Coalition are talking about getting Government off your back a bit. That's a traditional fight between the two sides of politics.If we opinion polling, talk about broader opinion talk about broader points with
opinion obviously it shapes and opinion polling, I mean determines internal party
debates

debates about who should obviously it shapes and debates about who should be a leader. That's what we've seen for many months now. leader. That's what we've for many months now. Then there is the other about do you want to be seen - in America you want to be seen - in you want to be ahead in the opinion polls because you have to be a winner, you have to be perceived as a winner to take on a presidential election campaign. Here it's the under dog. It's going to be a tough fight, you want sympathy. Do you think that's still the case here?I think the polls here are interesting at this time, because we are looking at it in the context of when will they choose the actual date itself. It is a question of whether Kevin Rudd has peaked in the poll or not or whether he still has a bit more to go. I think there is some benefit to being the under dog. Look, you'd always rather be in a position where you were way ahead in the polls like a bare O'Farrell or Campbell Newman than being in this sort of much more contested positionmentI'd give you a thousand dollars if both claim to be the under dog during the campaign...Nice call. I mean, okay, so call. speaking of creative thinking and speculation, I cannot move on without asking you do you have any insight into the election date, Simon?I can honestly say I don't know and quite honestly I don't think they know yet when the election's going to be. election's Clearly Kevin and the Government have been moving through which have been I guess
perceived

which have perceived negatives for them and trying to isolate and contain them. I think they still have some work to do in terms of setting out a positive agenda for the future. We saw glimpses in the speeches Kevin and Chris Bowen gave to the Press Club. I think there is more work to do there. But, look, the great joy, the endless guessing game, that's entirely in their hands. I guess the one thing I know about Kevin is he will make this decision, there is no doubt. He will wake up one morning and decide he's ready and go. Historically, being decisive at this exact moment is not one of his suite of skills. He's a very cautious, conservative person. I think skills. we have seen, for example, in the last few days, in terms of the PNG solution, a lot of people would have said that that's a bold step from Kevin, not a particularly cautious step in some ways. No, I think the big smashy announcement - splashy announcement is very much part of the suite of skills but the decision to go to an election now is not. I mean, what I'm saying is that early in 2010, when it was virtually decided that they were going to have a double dissolution...He baulked, yes. He sort of dith erred and then flobed it. That was...This is the Mark Latham thesis, this is a man who only likes to go for a ballot when he is actually pretty sure of the numbers. I don't think he's going to get that comfort in the next few months.Obviously there are other matters at stake in this election campaign, and one of them is education. Annabel how significant did you think the announcement this afternoon was about the Catholic school signing on? It's a big and growing block of students and parents. The Catholic schools en bloc. What's happened in the history of the funding schemeness this country in the last ten years is they tend to be treated in a different way. They had a special deal in the SES funding that was structured that was introduced by David Kemp and have continued to have a special deal ever since.That very complicated structure. Right, but they are also very centrally controlled. Once they are signed on they are signed on. In that sense, it's a very important block to win over. I think it's an important psychological and practical advance that the Government's made to sign them up. I think it increases this sort of sense of momentum and also a sense that the Rudd Government is kind also a sense that the Government is kind of getting Government is some things Government is kind of some things done, whereas the Gillard Government seemed to kind of a bit frozen by the end. I think it's a fairly end. I important development. I actually think the interesting thing about where we have now got to with this debate about school funding is historically if you go from the State aid debate back in the 70s through to the present day, if Labor was caught on the wrong side, it is perceived to be pro Government school and anti-private school, the Mark Latham hit list was the most recent example of that. The Government now has the private sector in its corn issue argue are - corner arguing for this deal. It is the Coalition holding out in terms of the public side. I'm sure Labor would love to get another one of the State Governments to come on board. But with almost two-thirds of Australian school students now covered by one of these agreements, I think there is now no going back. I think the Coalition have a massive electoral problem around this issue.Okay. It will be interesting to see what Christopher Pyne does. If elected, he says there has to be a national deal. Without more States, it's not really a national deal. It may be if elected all of this comes unstuck.Let's move on. The Government's agreement with Papua New Guinea has won aprovbl with some voters. aforementioned news poll suggest over a quarter of Australians think Labor is the best party to handle asylum seekers. That's a six point improvement on their last result. The Coalition is still pressing for more information on the PM's new immigration policy. Today the Opposition Leader accused him of using money as a free gift. Yet another example of the slipperiness and sneakiness of Mr Rudd, yet another example of the fact that you can never take what he says at face value. There is always fine print that he just doesn't tell you about.The PM insists that's not true. Mr Abbott today has simply not told the truth. just he said, and I quote him, he said, and I quote him, that this is a free gift as a simple cash grant with no accountability. That is untrue. That is 100% rock solid untrue. Labor's new asylum seeker policy has been controversial in Papua New Guinea as well. The country's Opposition Leader labelled his Government's deal with Australia as madness. Papua New Guinea has its own problems already. By having to accommodate extra people into the country, it's only adding problems to the many problems that we already have. Papua New Guinea is rich in itself with all the natural resources put together. We do not need to get money from this agreement to provide necessary services that our people want.
Now, Julian, quite a lot of push back from the locals, politics, of course the services that Opposition Leader saying it is madness. How concerned do we need to be about that? I heard an interview, a former Opposition Leader on radio national, she said the internal migration issues in Papua New Guinea are enormous, there will be some sort of bad blood between asylum seekers there. I think asylum Kevin Rudd's been all over the place on this issue. Before the 2007 election, he said he wouldn't touch the Howard Government's border protection policies. He came to Government and then changed it. Remember when Julia Gillard challenged him, he said that the party shouldn't lurch to the right by doing these sorts of things. Labor has bad form on negotiating international agreements with countries to deal with asylum seekers. We remember how badly handled the East Timore solution was. The Malaysia solution was not entirely well handled either. I think there is obviously some descent in Papua New Guinea about this. Who knows. This is a country that's had two Governors general, two speakers, two Chief Justices, two Prime Ministers in a very short space of time. This is not the country we should necessarily be relying on to deal with our asylum seeker issues.What do you think, Simon, of the major issues regarding the actual resettlement? They are going to have to be hastily constructing tents. That might be some sort of temporary mining camp. Accommodation for the staff?There are obviously very clearly considerable logistical difficulties, but history to when John now we need to go back in history to when John Howard
instituted

instituted the so-called history to when John Pacific Solution. When he announced that initial policy he didn't even have a country that thee had an agreement with. He had that with. He had to run around with. Pacific and find some with. He had to run who were with. He had to run around the Pacific and find some partners who were prepared to sign up to that. You know, Tony Abbott was criticising there the Government using aid funding as part of this deal. John Howard used aid used aid funding as part of his response to the Pacific used Solution. I think the real problem that the Coalition has here is that on day one, Tony Abbott came out and said that in principle he supported this deal and ever since then he's tried to find every excuse he can to try and criticise it and undermine it. I think he would be far better off in the current circumstances trying to back the Government in, trying to give them support and to be constructive. I think the overwhelming majority of Australian people accept, regardless of the historic views, that people sea is not acceptable and we need to take more dramatic views, measures to prevent that. Does it not depend on how much of a deal this is and a quick-fix pre-election politics? Tony Abbott's problem at the moment is rather than looking like a constructive Leader of the to succeed, is sounding like a critic who wants it to fail. It's perfectly legitimate to ask questions, but he came out on day one and said that he actually supported it. Because the form on this is all over the place. the form on the place. Surely the smart strategy would be to be try and construct ive and helpful and if it falls over you can quite fairly blame the Government. Isn't there too much smart political strategy going on here? Isn't that the problem with this area of policy? The actual workable polish gets abandoned. If Tony Abbott thinks that there are serious doubts about whether this Government, given its track record, is presenting a credible solution here, then he's honour-bound to mention them - beyond any political strategy, that's fair enough, I think.Annabel, what did you think about the discussion about this was a free gift, giving this money, because it appeared to be money the Government is saying it will be held accountable for but not tied in the way the previous grants have been? The aid
budget is huge, because there is a bipartisan commitment to radically ramped up levels of aid - in a new era of budgetary straightened circumstances, you have this pot of money that is a bipartisan commitment that is large, that goes to foreign aid, which is why, for instance, have a look at Ausaid has a huge budget compared to Affairs and trade, for instance, which is struggling in some departments. So, the temptation to dip into that bucket for purposes that are, you know, strictly speaking more domestic related is over powering and this Government has succumbed to that temptation, and it is kind of understandable in some ways, although it is a bit repellant when you set it out on the table.What is your take on the PNG deal, basically?The PNG deal is a deal, so it's - I mean, when Kevin Rudd rings up at 5 minutes to midnight before an election, and says, "Don't suppose I could interest you in an unlimited number of desperate people to accommodate on your island by any chance?" I mean, you are in a pretty good negotiating position, aren't you, to ask for a certain level of financial commitment, and obviously Peter O'Neill, who is no fool, has done that and secured a fairly generous arrangement, as you'd probably want in his position.We are still dissecting. On to another matter, because the Greens havun veiled their paid parent havun at all leave scheme. It looks remarkably like the Coalition's plan, funding the policy with 1.5% levy on big exactly the same as Tony Abbott's proposal. The Opposition Leader is offering six months salary on six months salary on full pay, capped at $150,000. The Greens would also give six-month wages to a maximum of $100,000. We will negotiate with either side. We think Tony Abbott's scheme is too generous, but we think the Government scheme doesn't go anywhere near far enough. It doesn't give you six months paid parent at all leave. It doesn't include superannuation, and it is so low that it means that many women just simply have to go back to work sooner than it would be desirable.The current parent at all leave scheme introduced by Labor is far less generous. The Government grants 18 weeks leave on the minimum wage. The Opposition Leader says that's not fair. When it comes to the fundamental principle that paid parent at all leave should be paid at someone's real salary, real wage, rather than simply at a welfare amount, the Labor Party is now on its own. We don't glee with them. The Greens don't agree with them. Much of the union movement doesn't agree with them.The Government argues both the Coalition and the Greens' policies are too generous. We don't think that the richest people should get the most taxpayer support. When you're talking about the distribution of money that is taken from every takes pair and given to people, then we give the most to the people who need the most - taxpayer. That is a fair and basic principle.Annabel, did this strike you as sieltly odd we have the Greens calling the Coalition too generous but then actually adopting the bulk of the model for it?I think this is Tony Abbott's worst nightmare, this outcome. Oh, it's just me and the Greens on this one.Saving money they are at it. There is
something really they are at it. something going on with this policy. The Coalition's policy, that is. That is that it's sort of roundly despised by most of Tony Abbott's colleagues. They don't say nug public - anything publicly, except Alex Hawke, and this is something that Tony Abbott announced without his colleagues' knowledge and has stuck to and stuck to and stuck to. so it's something that he really believes in,Signature. It's a really interesting policy breakout on the Coalition front. I'm not surprised at it from the Greens, but I'm kind of - never, it's not a policy of Tony Abbott's that I thought would probably last, but it has.So far. He's really clinging to it.What did you think of the Greens' decision to cap - the difference they made was between 150,000, to 100,000. What did you make of it?I think the Coalition, when developing their policy, were very much looking at the group of women who were not having children or who were delaying having children and what were the reasons behind that. I think they were looking at a particular group of women who were higher income earners and were that this particular policy, if you put the Greens' cap on, doesn't really get you those women and those families, and encourage them to have kids. I think that's the point that they were making. The Greens sort of tacit endorsement, if you like, of the Abbott policy doesn't surprise me. I remember the day that Tony Abbott announced his policy, Bob Brown came out very quickly and said this is a policy that we'd agree with, too. So I was a little bit surprised they didn't just copy it all out. The principle behind - you know, you hear Tony Abbott elaborating on in public, which, you know, is that is this a welfare payment or a workplace arrangement? If it's a workplace entitlement, let's take it seriously. Except a couple of important points. ThereEntitlements paid for by the Government. That is actually welfare. If it's a workplace entitlement the employer normally pay, not the taxpayer.The employers are paying. Some are. I think there was a great thing about today, it reminded everyone about the tax increase that Tony Abbott never wants to mention, the company tax rate by 1 and a half cents in the dollar. All of the business groups actually hate it. They don't think it's fair, they don't think the fact that they are subsidising effectively this, mainly for the large and accounting firms who don't
pay this, mainly for the large law pay it because they don't use company structures to pay these and benefits to their staff. Coles and woollies and mining companies, they don't think they should be paying it for those professional serves. It's also not the most efficient or productive way to provide assistance with women with children. All of the research from the OECD productivity commission, says if you want to provide assistance to women with the cost of children, in fact Childcare is far more productive and efficient, because it actually helps them get back into the workforce.The institute report and the Treasury report said it was also a crucial part of the productivity, in fact, the earlier part of Childcare is just the care by the parents. There is no doubt it can have a productivity enhancing element, but the cost of $1.5 - 1.5 cents, when you have other options of increasing the Childcare rebate which would be more productive and helpful - I think this is a poorly drafted policy at the wrong time, wrong priority. The compulsory six-month absence for new fathers to go and sniff the six-month absence for breeze and change a fathers to go breeze and change a few breeze and change a few nappies and let the chick take and let the chick take the job for six months, brilliant.The latest 'Kitchen Cabinet' airs tonight. Annabel will be dining with Families Minister, Jenny Macklin.

Jenny Macklin. If you walk down the street and you asked 100 people to name the most powerful figures in the Australian Government, in how many people would say Jenny Macklin? I'm guessing none. . but this woman's a serious Cabinet power house. She has a policy brain, she has control over a vast amount of Government spending, and behind the scenes, she's a woman of influence. Plus, I hear she cries at the drop of a hat. How could I not go to her house for lunch?

for lunch? For Jenny, I'm making my version of what's reputed to be the world's oldest cake. It's been around since about the 1600s, although obviously I hope mine will taste a little fresher than that.

fresher than that. You can use Hazel nuts or walnuts. I'm using almonds. Fill the pastry with jam and cover with the remaining pastry, and punch it in the - bung it in the often for about bung half an hour. I'm off for lunch with Federal Cabinet's secret lady weapon.

secret lady weapon. Now we are hungry. More happens in the show than just me talking and cooking, I promise the actual guest does turn up.Jenny Macklin can actually cook?Yes, she cook s a whole heap of good curries and she gave me a jar of her own lime pickle to take home, which was delicious. The reason I wanted to do her, though, is I think she is a massively powerful figure in these last three Labor governments that we have just had - Rudd, Gillard, Rudd - but she's very under the radar. She commands an enormous amount of Government spending. She has a huge role in influencing a lot of social policy development. She has a really doesn't kind of toot her own trumpet that much. I think that's her strategy. She also had a very vexed relationship in the past with Julia Gillard, who, of course, rolled her for the job of Deputy leader ALP the job of Deputy leader of the happened, Jenny Macklin made ALP and I think after that happened, Jenny Macklin made a
very, very happened, Jenny Macklin made about how she was going very, about how she was going to
respond to very, very precise decision about how she was respond to that - either suling respond in the corner or become bitter. She sought a meeting with Julia Gillard and said, look, let's bury the hatch et, I'm prepared to work with you. She has to work with you. She has done that ever since. She's a great example, I think, of someone who has responded in a very grown-up way to a very serious career set-back in politics. Have you found it revealing or telling in any way if, and how, a politician can cook?how much they cook, I think is often - I mean, well I think about cooking a lot, so I always assume other people do until I realise they don't.Some people would be fastidious, others experimental, sticking to recipes. Julie bishop who made mean, well how much batches of cupcakes...Yes.

cupcakes...Yes. Jenny Macklin is a very organised spice cupboard, which I read a certain amount into. She's a feeder, Jenny. made 'Ten Little Fingers and She's Ten Little Toes' tonnes of food. She's constantly got people coming around to her house, she has a singing group. Opens her home. She has exchange students, some who stayed for ten years at her house. You can tell a lot about the way people, I host other people. She's a very generous host other people. very generous hoster and I think that's kind of significant.Apparently, just quickly, you try to resolve one of the greatest outstanding quis about her, whether she actually has any tattoos?Yes. She tells a great tattoo related story. That's all I'll say. I didn't ask for a - you know, a look or anything. The but... as terrifying as it sounds.Next on 'The Drum', no tattoos, we will speak with the sex disnym nation Commissioner. Has the ADF improved since the report on the treatment of women

This program is not captioned.

The Defence Force has launched what its labelled a fundamental change in how it deals with sexual misconduct. The ADF created a new unit, so victims can confidential ly report any incidents. The sexual misconduct prevention and response office will provide victims with support. This was one of the key recommendations to come from the Commissioner's report into the treatment of women in the ADF. The chief of the Defence Force says progress has begun, but there is still much to do.

much to do. Our strong and visible stance against unacceptable behaviour is one part of the story. There is also a deal of work to be done right across Defence to effect cultural change. We effect serious about eliminating unacceptable behaviour and resolutely committed to implementing the cultural reform outlined in the pathway to change.Sex discrimination Commissioner Elizabeth Broderick has just released and audit of Defence's response to her initial report. You say in signs
your report that you have seen signs of progress. We are seeing reports of the Jedi Council in the news. What's actually improving? I think what's improving is people's preparedness to speak out - one thing that's improving. Very
much we have

leadership not just of the much we have seen the leadership not just of the ADF, but leadership not just of but ADFA, get on board with this and really start to put in but ADFA, get on board place some strong this and really start to put place some strong initiatives -
one

place some strong one of which was launched today, which was the misconduct prevention and response office. SMPRO.Can response office. there was an issue with there was an issue confidentiality, with having to report things within a chain of command, with the decisions about pursuing an investigation not being made by the victim themselves, is that right?What sometimes happens, and I met a number of women who had this happen to them, the fact is that someone in their chain of command is sexually harassing hem - the instructor, or whatever. So if your only option is to go up the chain of command, your ability is limited. What we were determined to see and what Defence has embraced very, very well is to allow people to go outside the chain of command very early on, so to take it to SMPRO, they would actually support the victim right from the beginning, because one of the other things I saw, Julia, was that not only were people traumatised by the incident, but the subsequent handling of it was even more trauma tieing in some circumstances - this way, they will have a victim's advocate, they will be given counselling, medical, forensic,
whatever it is that they need, and they will have greater control of whether or not there is any investigation.Are you hoping this will reduce the stigma sometimes applied to people who complain? Absolutely. There is no question. If you speak out, you will be victimised. That needs to change. We need to you move to a safe reporting environment, and in militaries where this type of approach has been adopted, what we've seen is that the reporting has increased by over 100% in a very short period of time. all of a sudden people feel safe to speak out, that treated confidentially and they won't be victimised for airing treated confidentially the issues that have happened to them.Which are the other crucial changes, apart from SMPRO?We recommended residential support officers in the accommodation. This most recent issue at ADFA, which was the sexual initiation involving a group of about 20 - how that came to light was that residential support officers actually overheard a number of conversations in different accommodation blocks.They are living with them. Is it kind of an after-hours chaperoning, or constant presence?Like pastoral care in a sense. Also it's about mitigation of risk. Is that an existing person who is given that job or a new person?No, it's a new person that's come in. It may be a very senior cadet, someone who was a cadet a couple of years ago. So someone who will relate really well with the cadets and midshipmen, but who understands their role is to support people and also identify the management, the senior leadership at ADFA, if they identify unacceptable behaviour. So that's been really successful. I mean, the one area where I think ADFA really needs to pick it up is in the area of sexual ethics training because...I wanted to ask you about that. Someone sent me a note on Twitter saying don't they just need to be told to behaviour. With the training, can you spell out what it is exactly that people need to be told about sex and sexual behaviour in the army? I think the first thing is training, most of the kids in ADFA, digital natives, they were born when the internet was invented. Untiling, photograph -. Filming, it is all part of their life. It is about the appropriate use of technology. That needs to be included. The meaning of consent. Look, you know, drunk, alcohol, that type of thing, that needs to be very firm guidance on that. But the other thing I think is what do healthy and respectful relations look like? Unfortunately, and it's in my work as the sex discrimination Commissioner, domestic violence is widespread across our country, and if you've never seen a respectful relationship before, how are you going to know how to conduct one when you come into an organisation like ADFA? I think all of those things are elements of a good sexual ethics program. What I'm ADFA actually gets What I'm determined is that ADFA actually gets an external subject ADFA actually gets subject matter expert to help them ADFA actually gets an them develop that, because I - it's not a core capability them develop that, because it's not a core capability of Defence and I think they Defence and I think they need to recognisance that. I'm really interested to hear your impressions of what effect that the speech, David made, that went on YouTube. It was a remarkable speech. What are your perceptions of what effect that's had within army on men and women?It's interesting, because the last three days I've been on the joint military exercise, and spoken to hundreds of cadets - sorry, hundreds of members of the Defence Force and asked them that very question - what did you think about the Chief of Army's speech? I have to say there has been overwhelming support for him to come hard. So I think, you know, they thought that what he said needed to be said. Basically, if you're not on the program, get out. Not only that, his speech has meant that other commanders and senior people across the organisation have continued to build those messages down the chain of command. Because, really, it's important that the private on the ground understands this stuff, that the platoon commander midway, that the major a bit higher up and then the really senior commander, everyone through the chain of command understands the importance of those messages.It seems you have very goodbye - there is something focused on, if you like, the middle matting of the Defence Force that's come out of your audit or report today?That's where a lot of the education needs to happen. You can get the senior leadership on board but the cultural ambassadors in the ADF are those mid ranking, the keepers of the culture. Unless they decide to change, change won't happen. And I think that there is a lot of education and strategies targeted at that group, that will take more time, though. It's not going to happens a matter of months. I see this as a matter of years. I absolutely know I see the ADF is on the road to really evolving their culture in a positive way. How do you get the incentives, really the grass root levels of these organisations, so people do feel empowered to speak out, particularly if it's not happening to them, but they see T obviously an inherent part is to be protective and to be there for your mate, if you like, in times of difficulty. How do you actually empower people to realise that standing up at that point and saying to someone this isn't right, that that's actually the best thing can you do for a friend?The research shows there are three things you need - firstly, that person needs to know they work in an organisation where there is zero tolerance. Secondly, they need to know they'll be safe if they do speak out and, thirdly, they need to know that action will be taken. I think the Chief of Army's speech and other things have taken us to point one, everyone should understand the zero tolerance. There is still more work to be done to ensure people are safe when they speak out and that action is taken expeditiously. I think they are on the road to getting to a safer reporting environment, but there is still more work that needs to be done.

done. Can you flesh out what that work actually is? We have talked about what seem seem smpro will be doing and the training. One of your recommendations was only taken on in principle, is that correct?Yes, there was in relation to ADFA, and that was to really look - one of the things we said, would it be better if people who came into ADFA were a year older, more mature, and that those important ages of, say, 17, the maturation that happens there, didn't actually happen at ADFA, it happened at home or somewhere else. That's not going to make the competitive in the recruitment environment. So basically they will still recruit straight out of school. What we said was then, well, maybe every service should have what they call an immersion experience. If you come into Navy, you don't go straight into ADFA, you actually go out to sea for a year. It's were finding is people important, because what coming to ADFA important, because what they
were

were finding is people coming to ADFA saying, yeah, I'll be in coming to I'll be in the Navy, and three I'll be in the years get on a ship and realise they years get on a ship and they have sea sickness it was never going to work. We basically said army and Air Force should do something similar. They explored that in quite some detail. The costs were prohibitive. So they are looking for some kind of other immersion experience.Thanks for coming to talk to us about it on 'The Drum'. That is all for us tonight. Thanks to the panel, ban Banks, Annabel Crabb and Julian Leeser. You can check out 'The Drum' online. join us again, the same time tomorrow night. We'll see you then.

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