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This is PM Agenda.Good afternoon, welcome to the program, I'm David Speers. Three months after announcing its version of the Pacific solution the Gillard government has today been forced to make some major changes with no letup in boat arrivals and asylum seekers, coming at record levels. Reopening too detention centres on the mainland, upon the ville in Tasmania housing 300 and at Broadmeadows in Melbourne housing 300 asylum seekers. It has sent the first group of asylum seekers to Manus Island with Nauru edging towards its capacity there, about 387 people there at the moment, the capacity 500 at the moment, it sent the first batch of asylum seekers to man mus island in Papua New Guinea, importantly they include women and children for the first time. To drive home the point the immigration department filmed their arrival, released the footage, we will show it to you soon. We're not told how old or young the kids are, they look from the footage to be as young as six or seven years old. The Minister Chris Bowen made clear they will spend up to five years from the man news island centre before being released even if they are found to be genuine refugees. The significant element is the bridging advice sass that will apply to an undisclosed number of asylum seekers, likely to be in the thousand, given we have had some 7000 asylum seekers arrive since at announcement of this offshore processing policy in August, 7000 arrivals, only as I said less than 400 able to be sent to Nauru, that means this are thousands that are likely to be released on the new bridging visas. They're not exactly a holiday. We will explain how they are going to work, it means that people are released from Christmas Island into the community on the mainland. Here's the catch, for up to five years, under the so-called no advantage principle they can be sent at any time in that five years to Nauru or Manus Island. They cannot work, they will be given some welfare assistance, but it's limited. It's not exactly, as I say, a holiday for them. They can't work, they can't earn a living, there is major restrictions on what they can and can't do. We will explain more about that. It does look and feel very similar to the temporary protection visas that the coalition has pledged to reintroduce, we heard from Scott Morrison he believes there are important differences between the bridging visas and TPVs. We will look at the difference, to see if it limits the difference between what the Government has no place and what Tony Abbott said he will do should he win the election. We will look also at whether this whole policy is a complete failure now. Three months in, no letup as I say with boat arrivals as one concerned Labor MP said to me privately today it is hard to argue that the policy is working. This risks unsettling the Back Bench, the left of the Labor Party when it comes to this asylum seeker policy. They have held their breath and gave this a chance. Will they continue to stay on board given the changes that have been made today? Coming up we will be talking to the Greens immigration spokesperson Sarah Hanson-Young. We heard the Greens today saying this is not the sort of Australia that we want to live in, given the changes that been made to harden this asylum seeker policy. A lot coming up on this topic. First what is happening with in this hour back to the news centre. Hello everyone, the first asylum seekers have been transferred to Manus Island with the offshore processing centre on Papua New Guinea officially reopened. Women and children among the first 19 detainees which has attracted scathing criticism from the Greens but the opposition says that offshore processing needs to be hard line.The plane arrived in Manus Island early this morning, the first detainees on board. Unlike Nauru they include women and children. Ism the first group of 19 people is made up of I recall rannians and Sri Lankans and family groups. What sort of country is Australia now, what sort of country do we want to live in. The opposition leader has hardened his language taking aim directly at asylum seekers. The people who come illegally to this country need to know they are breaking our laws, that they are, if I may say so, taking advantage, unfair advantage of our decency as a people. The immigration Minister says all refugees including children on Manus Island could have a wait of up to five years or longer. Those who come to Australia by boat and those who don't come to Australia by boat I have said repeatedly the no advantage test is people will wait for a substantial period. Could it be five years? Yes it could. That would apply to refugees held on shore. With boat arrivals continuing at pace the Government has been force today reopen upon the ville on Tasmania and expand capacity across the state. The boats keep come, that's the point. This is a government today that is like I to reannounce the opening of another on shore detention centre they said it would be temporary. There is not temporary about Labor's Border protection failures. 100 Sri Lankans sent back to their home land, the Government found they were not genuine ref gus, the total sent back 125. Amnesty international has been able to access the Nauru detention centre, 14 men are sleeping in one tent in 40 degree heat on rain-soaked beds causing skin conditions. At the same time as amnesty international were recording their eyewitness accounts the Government was loading women and children on a plane to Manus Island. Chris Bowen maintains conditions are humane and announced construction of the new permanent facility starting soon. There is no time line yet, meaning for those on Nauru it could be a long hot summer. Tom Connell, Sky News, Canberra. To the Middle East, after 24 hours spent searching for a road map to peace a truce now appears to have fallen through. Hamas had announced that a ceasefire was due to come into placed to, but an Israeli government spokesman has told Sky News there's no deal. It follows a day of high stakes diplomatic efforts from Cairo to Jerusalem Gaza to Washington to bring an end to the clash so far claiming lives. A midnight meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The commitment is rock solid and unwavering, that is why we believe it is essential to deescalate the situation in Gaza. The goal must be a durable outcome that promotes regional stability and advances the security and legitimate aspirations of Israelies and Palestinians alike. Break neck meetings with all the major players in Gaza and Cairo. All day rumours of peace flew, so did the rockets and the leaflets, Israel dropping thousands of them warning thousands of Gaza people to leave. And they fled with mattresses piled high with donkeys and rickshaws. 1 million Palestinians, though, remain in harm's way. Anger soaring in the West Bank where Palestinians tossed stone protesting the raids battling Israel troopsWe have to get back into the cabs, we have tear gas clashes spilling over between Israel and the West Bank. The fighting is exacting a cost, 150 pill stinians and four Israelies dead. 3.5 million Israelies remain in Rocket range, cowering from ceaseless sirens and shrapnel. Rockets blasted. Those in Rocket range refusing to return to the status quo. To stop firing into another 48 hours, whatever, then for next week the same thing to happen that is unacceptable. Israeli officials are telling us that secretary Clinton had be hearing that sentiment Israel's unwillingness to settle for other than a long-term cease fire. Demands to loosen the grips on borders and stop assassinating their leaders both sides are dug in. Leaders have ceased fires worth more than a quarter of a million dollars hidden in machinery N September a shipping container arrived in Port Botany in China. Later a police raid recovered a road roller with 13 sports bags inside. Inside of the sports bag the AFP recovered a total of 350 kilograms of Border control substance made up of 235 kilograms of meth am fet mine and cocaine. These drugs worth a combined street value of up to 237 million. Two foreign nations alleged to be key members of a crime syndicate have been arrested. The only surviving gunman from the 2008 terror attack in Mumbai have been executed. Asmal Kasab was one of 10 gun man that ram paged through the city killing 166 people. The Government says he's been hanged in gaol after the Indian president rejected his plea for mercy. The other gunmen were all killed during the attack.A quick look at sport, Australia has named an unchanged line-up for the second test against South Africa. It means Mitchell Starc will again carry the drinks with Ben Hilfenhaus hanging on to his spot, Shane Watson still not fit enough to return it means Quinney has a place in the squad. When he's doing both very well he has a huge part to play. Our plans are to try and get him to 100% as quickly as we can, knowing we have eight days before the third test in Perth. Clarke says Watson agrees he's not quite ready to return. Tomorrow's forecast, widespread showers and storms in the west, a few in the North mostly Sunny elsewhere. 11 minutes past 4 eastern daylight time. Back to David Speers in Canberra as M PM Agenda inches itWe will get more from you later, thanks. We're going to be looking carefully at the changes to the asylum seeker policy announced by Chris Bowen the immigration minister. I was mentioning at the top of the hour we weren't told how young the youngest child that Australia has sent to Manus Island in Papua New Guinea was I've been told the youngest child was 10. That child will be spending up to five years under this no advantage principle. The Government has put in place. We will have more about this after the break. Stay with us.

You're watching PM Agenda welcome. Not long ago Chris Bowen the immigration Minister used to argue that offshore processing in Nauru and Manus Island along with temporary protection advice sass, wouldn't stop the boat people. The question was was he right all along? In the three months since the Government put this Pacific Solution Mach II in place we have seen 7000 people arrive, the boats keep coming at the same if not a higher rate. Now the Government today in response to this problem of not being able to send all of these people to Nauru, only got a capacity at the moment of 500, up to 387 people sent there already, it's having to take pretty drastic steps today. Reopening two detention centres on the mainland, one at Pontville in Tasmania, and one at Broadmeadows in Melbourne housing 300 people, clearly that's not going to be enough. It is releasing what will be presumably thousands of people on bridging advice sass that look, sound and feel similar to temporary protection visas. We will explain how they work, the first batch of asylum seekers sent to Manus Island include women and four children, the youngest child 10. Let's hear Chris Bowen announce how the bridging visas are going to be working for the many asylum seekers that are going to be relaetsed in the community. They're not allowed to work or family reunions, get this, even if they are found to be a refugee they will have to spend under this no advantage principle, up to five years possibly longer in which they are not allowed permanent residency. In that time they could also still be sent to Nauru or Manus island. Here he was on that. People who have their claims processed in Australia found to be refugees will remain on bridging visas until they are issued which a Protection visa under the no advantage principle. They will still be subject to potential future transfer to Nauru or Papua New Guinea at a date when increased capacity becomes available. So if you're on this bridging visa you can be sent to Nauru or Manus Island at any time. For five years or whatever the time period turns out being that the Minister acknowledged that we're looking at around that number you're not allowed family reunions, you are given welfare assistance, less than the minimum dole payment, 89% of the current Centrelink payment. Six weeks accommodation then on your own, 89% rent assistance to help you, you're not allowed to work, not allowed to earn a living you have to live off what will be a meagre welfare payment. The Government has sent the first batch of asylum seekers to Manus island to drive home the point it has opened that centre and sending families there, it filmed footage, the department fim md footage and released it to drive home the point. Look at it. The children amongst those disembarking the plane that flew there, four children, a part of this group of 19, the youngest we're told 10 years old. They will under the no advantage principle be spending up to five years on Manus Island. Now, the five-year figure is something that the Government has acknowledged today. The Minister, Chris Bowen did confirm this is the sort of time frame we're looking at. Take a look. I have said repeatedly the five year figure is an accurate one. It could be up to five years, it could be an accurate reflection of how long people will wait depending on the individual circumstances in relation to how long they would have waited at a regional processing centre around the southeast Asian region. It will be interesting to see if the images of children being sent to Manus Island and that five year figure used by the Minister will change public sentiment on this at all. Will Australians feel perhaps more uncomfortable about this hard line policy now in place. Certainly Tony Abbott the opposition leader isn't critical of offshore processing. He fully supports sending women, children and other asylum seekers to Manus Island and Nauru. He also today has hardened his language about asylum seekers. He, for a long time now has used the word illegal in relation to asylum seekers arrivals. Today toughened that language somewhat. Have a look. People who come illegally to this country they can't expect to be treated like they're staying in a four star or five star hotel. The people who have come illegally to this country need to know that they be are breaking our laws, that they are, if I may say so, taking advantage, unfair advantage, of our decency as a people. There needs to be consequences for people who do the wrong thing. That's what rigorous offshore processing is all about.So confirming there essentially that this is punishment for those people in the opposition leader's view who come here illegally. The coalition believes the Government's failed on this front. That temporary protection visas and turning back the boats to Indonesia are the elements required to stop the boats. The Greens are really the only ones who are critical of what the Government is doing with the offshore processing they believe it has failed completely. We heard the Green's leader Christine Milne this is not the sort of country we want to live in. Joining me is Sarah Hanson-Young. I want to pick up on that's language illegal entry, this is breaking the law coming to country without papers, is he right? No, he's not right. It sounds like a nice sound bite, it is a political Dog whistle. Australian has signed the Refugee Convention, in signing that we have said if you come to Australia seeking help or protection you have a right to do that. If you or I went to another country, didn't have papers said we're here seeking asylum is that legal? For a country who has signed the Refugee Convention, no, it's not. There is nothing illegal about that? You can say people have come here unannounced, come here unauthorised it's not illegal. In fact it's the exact opposite. The convention was drafted after World War II when we saw at tros tees inflicted on people who had to flee, had to flee Germany, had to flee France or Europe, rather than people getting to another country and being turned around leaders across the world said we don't want to do that again. We need to learn from our mistakes, let's make sure if you are indeed in need of protection you have the right to ask to be assessed. We have seen no slowdown in boat arrivals since the Government announced this Pacific Solution Mach II. Now today's announcement of these bridging visas in particular. If we can discuss those. You're arguing they're actually worse than temporary protection visas, why? Look, temporary protection visas were terrible, and what's been announced today is Labor's form of temporary protection visas. There worse in the sense that they are indefinite. You can't work. All the things you've just listed, they can't work, bring out their families, what they are given to live on is minimal. In most of these people, when they come here they want to start putting their lives back together, these are bright, strong, smart people who want to contribute to our country and we're saying, no, you wait, you sit there, you rot in limbo, until we think...It's not rotting in limbo, though, you're released to the community, you may not have to work or have your family come out. You're not rotting. We know from last time with the temporary protection visas how bad leaving people in that Des late limbo means to their ability to then get on later on with life. Because there is the risk they could be sent at any time to Nauru or Manus island. Ism the Labor Party have said themselves in the last couple of months that temporary protection visas was an uncivilised way of dealing with refugees, yet here we are today. The temporary protection visas meant you could be sent back after three years, you're not going to be sent back under the bridging visas? It's hard to know, the whole point of having this no advantage test you had no advantage to come to Australia. There's no promise for any of these people they will be given a permanent protection visa at any stage. They may be sent to Nauru or Manus, they may be sent elsewhere to another country. No guarantee these people will be able to put their lives back together. As difficult as this all is, the hajs of kids being sent to Manus Island will be many people sleeping uncomfortably. What is the alternative? None of this is easy? It's not easy, it never has been easy, we are dealing with a humanitarian issue, people fleeing in the most disorganised, unorganised ways. Fleeing for protection, fleeing war and persecution is not an ordinarily experience. Of course it is going to be difficult. What do we need to do? We know people are waiting to be processed to be resettled from. Putting massive amounts of support, boosting the ability for the UNHCR to assess the claims, resettle them, encourage other countries to resettle them. That's the way to stop people combing from boats. Getting other countries to s resettle thousands of refugees. There's a limit. There has to be a limit at some stage. Look, David, I think there does. We also have to understand when there is a need for people seeking protection in our region, Australia is the wealthiest, the most resourced, the most organised in terms of our legal system in the country to come to, unless we are ghoeg to throw all of that away, then we have to lead by example. The Government is increasing the refugee intake to 20000. What should it be? We have obviously support that had increase, I think we advocated for 25000, but, look,...Even if it's 25, you're still going to have people, if we have had 7000 in three months we will have people above that. It's about targeting the places where people are currently coming from and telling them you don't have to take a boat. This is the process, there is, we're trying our hardest to help the UN to have a system that is orderly. At the moment it's not. When I have spoken to families camped out in Malaysia and Indonesia the system, they have no faith in the system. When a people smuggler comes along and says whatever money you've got left I'll get you to Australia. If you've been waiting five years running for your life for five years that's the option you take. Here's the reality. Even if you had 25000 limit in Australia, as you have suggested, there is still going to be more people willing to make the boat journey here, even if it means, living on a bridging visa in Australia, it's a better deal than what they face at the moment in Malaysia, Indonesia or Afghanistan? Well, as many have said to me, until I'm treated as bad as the Taliban, I'm going to keep running. I think we need to put this into perfect I have, though, the numbers of people coming to Australia are manageable. The rest of the world is laughing why Australia is so obsessed with this issue. There are thousands upon thousands of people who cross borders in other countries on a daily basis. The numbers coming to Australia at the moment are higher, that's because the level of conflict in our region has risen lately, but it isn't unmanageable. We can do it. We have done it before. During the Vietnam war we had tens of thousands of people we put in place a system to help. We didn't say, because you're a refugee you're a bad person as Tony Abbott is saying. We said we will help you. And this is the step, we will do this, we will do this, and this, we will help you because it is the right thing to do. Finally on a bit of detail, Scott Morrison, announced disallowed a motion in the Senate about the Government rolling over bridging visas, the coalition don't want them to do that. What will the Greens do about that? I've been asking this afternoon for details on the Government about this. I'm worried that the Government hasn't told us exactly how they're going to implement these new temporary protection visas. Until the Government makes it clear how they're going to do that, I'm not prepared to see any changes to the bridging visa system. What do you still want to know about them? It's not clear this regulation that was tabled, about whether this is going to allow this new regime of temporary protection visas or whether this is just for people who arrived prior to August 13. There are different classes of bridging visas, we're talking about bridging visa E for those following. Bridging visa E or Gillard's temporary Protection visa take your pick. That's your name for it. Thanks for joining us, Sarah Hanson-Young. Immigration Minister Chris Bowen was unavailable to talk to us. After the break our panel Phil Curie and Andrew Probin. Stay with us.

P You're watching PM Agenda, our panel in a moment. First a check of the news headlines with Vanessa Trezise.The opposition has slammed the Government's Border protection policies as the first asylum seekers arrived at an offshore processing facility on Papua new begin why's Manus Island. 19 people including four children were transferred to the island under the government's offshore processing regime announced in August. The immigration Minister says it sends a clear message to asylum seekers thinking of embarking on a boat journey to Australia, but the opposition says it's not enough in the face of the thousands of people who arrive by boat.An dwreement on a seas fire in the middle -- agreement on a ceasefire in the Middle East remains elusive. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has held a meeting with Benjamin Netanyahu in Jerusalem but Hamas has backed away from an early endorsement of a ceasefire and the Israeli Prime Minister says he will do whatever it takes to protect the people. Artillery shells and miss styles were fired from gun boats and airstrikes launched every 10 minutes. Hundreds of rockets were fired from Gaza, one hit an apartment building injuring six people, rockets samd at injuries Salem but none reached the city. The only surviving gun fire from the 2008 terror attack from Mumbai has been executed. Pakistani sitten Adjmal Kasab killed 166 people. The Government says he's been hanged in gaol. The Indian president rejected his plea for mercy. The other gunmen were all killed during the attack.David Jones shares have plummeted by more than 6% after of reporting a lower than expected rise in first quarter sales. The troubled retailer says sales revenue Rose .3 of a% to $415.6 million in the first quarter of the financial year. It's the first time in two years that David Jones has experienced positive sales growth. The market was expecting a better result. Australia has named an unchanged line-up for the second test against South Africa, it means Mitchell Starc will again carry the drinks with Ben Hilfenhaus Holding on to his chance with Quinney getting his chance. Showers in in the west, a few in the North Sunny elsewhere. Vanessa thanks, joining me this afternoon Phil Curie and Andrew proen from the east Australia s. The changes announced by the Government with the asylum seekers, firstly the image that will grab a lot of people are kids being sent to Manus Island in Papua New Guinea, they have released that footage. We saw it earlier, the media is not allowed anywhere near them. The reality they're going to be there as Chris Bowen said for up to five years is that going to change people's attitude towards all of this, Phil? I don't know, I mean the pictures might. It shouldn't come as any great surprise, the Government announced they were going to do that, announced it back in August, women and children would be sent to these places as well, so maybe the pure of the imagery may change views, or -- power of the imagery may change views or perhaps people are so entrenched on both sides of the debate it won't. We have seen a couple of these tragedies, generally Australians agree there needs to be a strong detarpt. A 10 year-old kid sent to Manus, for up to five years, could be longer, it's pretty hard to feel comfortable about that. It is difficult to feel comfortable about it. The Government has decided of course they can't have any exceptions, if it started with ex epgs cans they thought the people smaug lers would Taylor their clientele. The Government thought a lot of things, the Government thought reopening the Pacific solution would stop the boats? Not quite. This should be of no surprise to anybody what happened today the Pacific solution didn't work. If you go back to the advice given to the department and the advice bisect Medcalf they said it would not work. They did it as part of broader person urs and it needed Malaysia which the parliament don't adopt Medcalf said you needed to do that. It is arguable...It proves that Tony Abbott was wrong. Medcalf underestimated the amount of people who would come, 600 a month, we're getting 2000. Everything else he said was bang on. The opposition ignored him, the greens ignored his advice, the Government said we will do Nauru and Manus Island, if you give us Malaysia it would be good. The parliament won't give them Malaysia. ? The Government's argument the only thing missing here is Malaysia, that would fix the problem. That's a guess. It has John beyond that. We have this system with the Government who got rid of TPVs in August 2008 have suddenly brought them back. They can't retreat from this. They have gone for draconian. With TPVs you had work rights. They didn't say how many this would apply to, we are talking thousands, 7000 in the last couple of months, there will be thousands this applies to. Under the bridging visa E it's called no family reunions, the same as temporary protection visas, you get six weeks accommodation paid for then out on your own with rent assistance, though. You do get a welfare payment, less than the lowest doll payment. You're not allowed to work. Under the TPVs you could work. You could work. The advice going to government was the people smugglers have changed the way they're flogging their business, that is even if you're rejected you can exhaust all of your appeals and be in Australia earning Australian wages for two years. The Government has decided I'm going to take that away. The big difference is with the TPVs you got sent home. For the duration of your time, it hung over your head or the spectre of the government didn't like you they would ship you home. Hanging over your head with this bridging visa is the prospect...You could be sent to Nauru and Manus Island. What do you reckon in they have capacity for 2100 on those islands. If I was living in dooms Vilhe Afghan is stay I would go there. This isn't going to deter anybody. You have the restrictions on whether you can work, whether you can have family re-unions and the threat hanging over your head to be sent back home it is arguable, which is worse than those? A lot of things unanswered here. How is this going to progress? You have people on 89% of the lowest welfare payment, meagre amounts, we're punishing people. That's what it's got down to. What is going to happen? We will have not for profit organisations already under stress, churches and charities who are going to be ask to come up with. We're going to have people turning to charities that can't afford it or we will have people thinking well maybe I have to work illegally or do something else. Is the left of the Labor Party going to hold on this? I've been trying to get information from figures on the left. One of them has said it is hard to argue this policy is working. Will the left hold the line? They held their breathe three months ago and stuck with Gayle Gillard when she announced this. What we know it's not working. What do you do? How do you stop the boats? I don't know. Everything they have tried is failed. Malaysia probably wouldn't work anyway, it may have worked 18 months ago when they recommended they do it, it may not work again. What does the left recommend you do? Maybe let the people work so they can earn a wanl, that provides an incentive to come. I have no idea you do next after this. The whole thing has collapsed, they're coming in willy nilly. Such a vexed policy area. As for the coalition they will argue they have the tougher and more effective policy. It is all bollocks, who can be crueller fastest. Scott Morrison believes there is a difference between the TPV and the bridge is visas. A temporary pro veks visa does not give anyone a right to family reunion, importantly at the conclusion of the conclusion of the term of the temporary Protection visa the person's status as a refugee is reassessed. The whole point about a temporary Protection visa under an Abbott government is that it doesn't perm into a permanent visa unless someone is believed to be a permanent refugee. Incremental. Mildly tougher. There are going to be people on bridging visas who will be sent back. I'll take the risk I'll stay here. What about Tony Abbott's language today, he has been saying all along these are illegal arrivals. We would be hauled before the press council if we said that. We get tackled over this sort of language, because he is wrong. It's not illegal. Not illegal to seek asylum as far as I know. Today he said they are breaking the law, taking advantage of Australia's decency and essentially there needs to be a message for them for doing this. The classic example where Labor can't out muscle the coalition on boats and the coalition won't let themselves be out flanked. There are a boat people taking advantage of our laws. Not everyone is arriving at a genuine refugees, they have spoiled it for the genuine refugees, eroded public sympathy for them, and turned it into a circus. You only have to talk to the people in the department or the Government, they will tell you that themselves. There is an abuse of goodwill. 436 Sri Lankans who have been sent back home. Do we know the process they went through to determine thatDeliberately vague like everyone, no principle...They have no claim, the Tamils don't have any claim to be repressed, mate, try it, tell someone who cares, back on the boat. It's a try on. That's like the Malaysia solution, you get flown back when you arrive. The Sri Lankans are still coming,Obviously this is going to keep playing out in the final sitting of parliament. We will talk about it again. I want to touch on another issue that will dominant parliament, Julia Gillard's past as a lawyer, the AWU slush fund. The bagman was caught by Channel 7 at the airport coming in today, here is what he said and where he wants things to go now. I deeply regret and sincerely apologise to the membership of the Australian workers union for any harm or problems I would have caused them. Do you think she should have concerns about what you know and what you can of it about. I don't know what is going on in Julia Gillard's head.Look, he's one of the ones accused of siphoning off the union money. Company money. Company money, yes, correct. Julie Bishop made it clear today this is something that she will keep pursuing in parliament next week. You could lay money on plenty of censure motions coming, look the what she said. I believe her answers at press conferences have been less than honest, and have mislead the Australian people about her true involvement. This is the opportunity for the Prime Minister to admit to the Australian people what role she had to play in what turned out to be a massive fraud perpetrated against the AWU.Didn't Tony Abbott say he'd give her the benefit of the doubt. I wait to see some evidence. I want to know what raffle Blewwett has got to say what he hasn't already said what he will tell the wallopers, and what they will unveil in particle. Where's the fraud against the AWU. The fraud has been committed against the companies. I know they're all sem mantics, but this is - sorry to point out the facts, this is the problem getting to the bottom of the facts...Money has been misused. No-one has produced a lot of evidence, a lot of inend doe, let's wait until she says we're talking out of our hats. The final week of parliament will be fascinating. Are we looking forward to it, David? We sure are, looking forward to getting over it. After the break we will turn to something different, hopefully by now a lot of people will be thinking about going home from work, today is Go Home condition on Time Day. Stay with us. -- go home on time day.

Go Home On Time Day.

Welcome back to the program. If you haven't knocked off headed home already you should start thinking about doing so, today is Go Home On Time Day. All part of a push to make us a bit more aware about the number of unpaid hours we all put in, without claiming payment for them. Now the union movement of course is right behind this push. They say each year more than 70 billion in unpaid work is being done. Would cutting this back or paying workers for doing this work actually reduce productivity. I spoke to Jedd Carney president of the ACTU. Thanks for your time, the report from the Australia institute suggests we are working about 2 billion hours a year without getting paid for it, worth 72 billion annually. Why are we all doing this? A good question, it equates to about six weeks a week of unpaid over time that each worker does in Australia which is an extraordinary amount of time. The answer to your question, why, it's complex. I think there are a number of easy things we can point to. No.one is technology we have our Smartphones and the tablets. You can't get away with it, we take it home, check our emails early in the morning and on weekends. That is part of it, something the ACTU is concerned about the advent of people in insecure work, many fearful of not putting in that extra hour or that extra shift they may not be offered another shift or have their contract renewed. We are seeing a new side of this debate, people are fearful to saying actually I want to go home on time today. It's often not the boss's fault it's the workers choice, they're not always being forced to do it. We ask our members why we work back late they say we are hopelessly understaffed, the work has to be done, or the culture of work, or my personal workload is so great I don't want to come back to a full inbox. They would feel less stressed. The begs the question why don't businesses put on more people. If this is the case they obviously need to employ more people. They are actually in some ways benefiting from the goodwill and work ethic of Australians. If you got rid of this 72 billion worth of unpaid work what is going to do to productivity, which is the big thing we need to tackle if some how this unpaid work wasn't paid for or wasn't done how is it going to help productivity? The question is how is it helping productivity now, a stressed over worked worker is not productive. That's a fact. We have tried it this way, you have tried over working people we haven't increased productivity we have got to do something different. Just looking, though, at industrial relations reform now, we have seen a lot of businesses in the last week or two, we need to address this, the Fair Work Act suspect working. I know you disagree with that. At a political level the coalition Joe Hockey on this program said they're not doing much, the biggest hinge is reinstating the building corporation. They're not going to do much of theOne person saying that, don't start me on reintroducing the chigs, it won't help productivity and it is unfair. We have heard Eric Abetz, Tony Abbott say they would be prepared to tinker with the Fair Work Act. We know that they're unhappy, for example, with the way that individual flexibility agreements have some safeguards around them. They have talked about the unfair dismissal laws. I would be very surprised if the coalition did in the have in their minds that tinkering with the fairway Act would actually mean significant changes. If it is only a minor change they are talking about and they detail that in advance of the election do you still need to run a campaign against the coalition in the election year? Let's hear what tinkering means, I can't comment on that, until I know exactly what they want to do. They don't come out and say what their policy is, put it on the table so we can deal with it. I do know the workers of Australia do not want to go back to totally unregulated IR system. They voted that out once this 2007, I know they won't go to go there again. We can expect a campaign from the ACTU? Yes, particularly around the unskier work and regulation of casual workers, shame contracting and independent contracting, it is really playing, as we have heard from this research today really affecting people's lives. ACTU president Jude Carney, thanks. That's all we have time for. After the break the very latest Sky News.