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Hello welcome I am Peter van Onselen we have a big program for you coming up. A lot happening this week. Not least of which obviously the royal commission the Prime Minister has called. We have also got the ongoing saga in relation to her historical allegations and commentary about the Prime Minister's conduct when she was at Slater and Gordon as a partner and beyond that economic issues continue to be in the mix not least of which today revelations the business community are increasingly coming out and expressing concerns and these are concerns not just targeted of the Government they are concerned targeted at the credentials of the Opposition as well. That shortly on the sho. First let's take a look what's making news with Jacinta.The conflict on the Israel Gaza border is escalating.These are live pictures from the Gaza Strip, where the local time is just after 7 am. The prospect of a ground war in the Middle East is increasing with Israel moving forces towards the border of Gaza and calling up to 30,000 reservists. Two rockets targeted Tel Aviv Israel's main commercial city, the first such attacks to hit the city in two decades. Three Israelis were killed in the attack and at least a dozen Palestinians have been killed in the past two days.Sky News reporter Sam Kylie reports from Gaza. Israel talked the surgical air strikes bringing security but that's not how it went. Tel Aviv came under rocket attack for the first time in 21 years. Because Hamas ignored hundreds of Israeli sorties and fired over 300 rockets at Israel in this hours. The first Israeli casualties, three adult s killed by a rocket from Gaza. A baby survived with critical injuries.

Militant rockets brought terror to the streets of southern Israeli towns but it could have been worse.

Israel's iron dome anti-missile batteries stopped most of Gaza's rockets destroying them in mid flight. Still, Benjamin Netanyahu could not hide his frustration at Hamas resilience.I hope that Hamas and the other terror organisations in Gaza got the message.If not Israel is prepared to take whatever action is necessary to defend our people. 30,000 Israeli Army Reservists face call-up as regular forces massed on the edge of Gaza awaiting their Prime Minister's orders to move. Here, just as in Israel, innocent children are caught in the war. TRANSLATION: We were coming back from my cousin's wedding and just when we got out of the car we saw a big fire coming from the sky. We hit the ground. We were all injured. As the air strikes continued, Hamas's armed wing buried its leader Ahmed Jaabari.Hundreds of volunteers are prepared to take his place. Israel's campaign is aimed at decapitating the Hamas leadership. But it tried that back in 2008, Hamas took four years to rearm and retrain, and this is the result. Another round of blood-letting. Gaza's militants have vowed to strike at the heart of Israel. TRANSLATION: The occupation alone bears the responsibility for this open war.Which they initiated. And they do not own the decision to end it. No-one does. This is most likely only the beginning. Three Crown Casino bouncers have been acquitted over charges of the death of a casino patron. Loretta Johns has details.The bouncers have been charged over the death of 40-year-old Crown Casino patron Anthony Dunning who died after being ejected for drunkenness in it July last year. The court was told when he was asked to leave a scuffle followed and he was thrown to the ground and held down for up to four minutes. He went into cardiac arrest and died in hospital four days later.Two bouncers, 27-year-old Matthew Scott Lawson and 40-year-old Cameron Paul sanderson had been charged with manslaughter over his death. Another bouncer 24-year-old Benjamin Michael Vigo was charged with assault, all three pleaded not guilty. During the four week trial the prosecution told the jury that Mr Doning was senselessly, needlessly and violently brought to the ground but the defence lawyers argued the men were just doing their jobs.The bouncers breathed a sigh of relief and shook hands after the not guilty verdict was delivered this morning. A man has been shot by police at saint albans in Melbourne's outer north-west. Emergency services were called to a house at about 11 o'clock this morning after reports a woman had been injured. Police say three officers were confront ed by a man who was allegedly armed with a number of knives.As they backed away the male person has continued to move towards the police and one police member has made a decision to discharge their firearm. Moments later another officer also fired several rounds at the man, the woman was also taken to hospital with serious injuries. An investigation is now under way into the incident. More than 200 Victorians will be spending the festive season looking for a new job. With Ford today announcing which jobs will go at its Broadmeadows and Geelong plants.It is part of the car maker's move to slash one fifth of its local work force. As Ford cuts more than 20% of its local work force, hundreds of staff arrive to find out who would stay and who will be un employed a month before Christmas.Young, got a mortgage to pay.Terrible. It's been my life. 28 years.The workers are told they no longer have a job of course they have to go home and tell their families that they don't have any income going forward.Ford announced the cuts four months ago, 330 staff to go at the Broadmeadows plant, and the engine plant in Geelong.In a statement the company said, redundancies were offered on a voluntary basis in the first instance, with approximately 118 employees applies.Obviously well short of Ford's target. The reason for the job cuts we are not buying locally built cars like we used to and the sector is adjusting.It's certainly tough. It's probably the toughest time it's ever been through. With the Australian dollar being at $1.04 US it makes it very difficult to export vehicles.And when you are relying on the domestic market.Sales for Ford's flagship fall come models have plummeted this year as they struggle to compete with volumes of voefr assess come petters to.Thoughts go out to the Ford workers today and Government will do everything they possibly can through programs to assist those works.I Have got to say the policy that the Government has pursued does appear to have let a lot of people down.Workers began arrive ing at 7 o'clock this morning for individual appointments with Ford's HR department, the somewhat dignified process for a work force, that doesn't want to leave. Almost 7 headwind extra RailCorp jobs ahad almost 700 extra RailCorp jobs are to be axed. The cuts mean 450 of the states 4700 maintenance workers will lose their jobs over the next three years. 240 middle management jobs will also be cut by 1 July next year. In addition to the 750 job cuts announced by the government in May.The reform program will split RailCorp into two separate bodies, Sydney trains and NSW Trains. More than 200kg of cocaine destined for the streets of Australia has been seized from a yacht which ran aground off the coast of Tonga.When the vessel was identified, the body of a man was found along with the cocaine. Which Tongan authorities say has the street value of up to $116 million The seizure came after an operation involving Australia Federal Police, customs, police from Tonga and the Cook Islands and the US drug enforcement administration.Partnership, between the agencies sitting at the table, shows the global reach of law enforcement. And whilst we can state that those drug were nos destined for Tonga or the Cook Islands, they played an integral part of this investigation.Which started in South America.And can I say that the seizure of the 204kg of cocaine has successfully stopped approximately 116 million dollars worth of cocaine reefing Australia's shores. -- reaches Australia's shores.The fishing industry will be offered up to $100 million in compensation after the Government's plan for another 40 marine parks off the coast of Australia. New laws coming to effect at midnight placing strict conditions on what fishing and mining activities can occur in more than 2.3 million square kilometres of oceans.Despite concerns from the fishing industry, the Government insists the compensation will be adequate. And minister Tony Burke has dismissed concerns about wreck rational fishing.You had to go somewhere between 300 and 400 kilometres offshore before you got to the first place where someone wouldn't be allowed to throw out a line if they were out there on a tiny. The Opposition says the laws should be reviewed but not repealed.There was no strong science, no adequate consultation, and no real compensation offered. The Greens say the legislation doesn't go far enough. British oil giant BP will pay more than $4 billion to settle criminal claims over the 2010 oil rig disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. The company has agreed to plead guilty to all 14 criminal charges, including responsibility for the death of 11 men aboard the rig Deep Water Horizon. The US Attorney-General says this marks the largest total criminal resolution in American history.Under the terms of the agreement that we announced today about $2.4 billion of the criminal recovery funds will be dedicated to environmental restoration, press servation and conservation efforts through the region including barrier island creation and river diversion projects right here in Louisiana and additional $350 million will aid in the development of state of the art oil spill prevention and response technologies, and education, research, and training. In sports news there are reports today football superstar David Beckham could be on his way to the A-League if a club takes up an offer for him to play a guest stint of around 10 games. Currently with LA Galaxy in the major league om soccer competition in the US which finishes in a fortnight hence the opportunity to come to Australia. However if any deals come off they need the support of the FFA.It's understood one A-League club has already knocked back the offer with Sydney and Melbourne considered likely destinations for the former Manchester United and Rial Madrid man. Now 37 he is familiar with Australia having played with the LA Galaxy twice before to pack ed crowds. It will be a huge coup and follow the success of Alessandro del Piero and Emille Heskey. The weather now:

Now Peter van Onselen with The ContrariansThanks. We will take a commercial break. I will be joined by the panel when we come back plus my rant. See you in a moment.

Hello welcome to the Alberto Contador this is the only show on -- welcome the Contrarians this is the om show on Sky we involve you the viewers where we read out your Tweets and e-mails.

Well, it's a splash story in 'The Australian' newspaper today and it's really been a broader story than that for some time now. Business has concerns about the Gillard Government. Unsurprisingly really when you consider the nature of their workplace relations reforms brought in when they scuttled the albeit unpopular WorkChoices, unsurprising when you think about the uncertainty attached to various public policy decision makes made by the Gillard Government over an extended period of time which create a level of uncertainty for businesses trying to look to invest here and build up a business in this particular country. The problem is a bipartisan one in my view in relation to business concerns within this country. Up until recently the polls have tightened, it looks like there was gob to be a land slide Liberal victory at the next election. Whether you are a Liberal or Labor leaning voter the one good thing in a Liberal land slide would have been there would have been conviction in a new Government in Tony Abbott was to become Prime Minister. They might have been prepared to embrace workplace relations reform and might have been prepared to look at productivity enlistening measure which while not necessarily popular with the average voter might be good for stimulating economic growth in this country. That now appears unlikely in the race to the bottom a close election will bring people will be pandering to voters. In one levels that democracy but in another level where business leader s are looking and economic growth, courage is in short supply at the moment and there is little courage on either side of the apologise to embrace reforms that will get our economy going. We continue to ride on the back of the fact we are the lucky country that can dig things out of the ground.The panel, Julian Leeser, thanks former your company. Rohan Dean from Spectator Australia great to have you on board and Troy Bramson from 'The Australian' and Sky News contributor good to have you on board.Great to be here.Let's start with you Troy, you haven't been on for a while you have been bitching and moaning about it for quite some time. What is your view on the issue of businesses having a problem with the Government. The Australian Industry Group which was the top yak of the Australian splash, it is unusual for them to come out in a speech and slam the Gillard Government because certainly under Heather Ridout they were best buddies with Labor certainly under Kevin Rudd.They were but they haven't only hid out at the Government. There was a quote by Innis Willox who accuses Tony Abbott of acting like scared little rabbits because he is not debating substantive IR policy changes.That's the point of my rant.Business wants significant changes and the Labor Party did have a mandate in 2007 to roll back elements of WorkChoices because it was a very unpopular policy.They did more than that.They went further back to what the Keating Government had less slated in its 1993 industrial relations Act which provided the basis for the end of centralised wage fixing and move to enterprise bargaining. That's a mistake and business are right to call for government to move to what essentially was the Keating model in 1993..Julian you are right of centre, unashamedly partisan in your views why are your fellow Liberals gutless when it comes to embracing the kind of reform this country really needs for the business sector.I I would like to see the Liberal Party embrace more industrial relations reform.Why won't they? I think it is quite obvious. In 2007 there was a massive scare campaign against the industrial relations reforms they brought in WorkChoices and they got well ahead of where the public view was. And... People don't play football to score easy try, they do it to prove their worth to get to the line. Why cabinet the political leaders do the same --the government is in power at the moment and the government commissioned a review which didn't mention productivity and there has been lots of complaints from business around what the way in which IR laws are a drag on productivity. The Government is probably going to be in power for another year, I think they should take the initial steps here and respond to some of these concerns and amend the frakt accordingly.They will not do that, will the Liberals have the guts to do that in the next election, particularly in light of the polling which shows they are not likely to win by as much as they otherwise look like they will if the polling stays true.They have no choice. The tragedy was foreclosures of install businesses was up 10% in October the same time last year. It is going dramatically in the wrong direction. The Government has to acknowledge that and address it -- it.If they won't of course the Liberals have to at the next election but will they.They were terrified by a dishonest advertising campaign which ran in the 2007 election, which painted WorkChoices in far more draconian way than it actually was. As we know WorkChoices isn't one thing it's a raft of different policies. Some of them will have to come back, there is no question about that. But you say they have to come back, but do you think they will? Do you think...A business will demand it. There is no choice.In a sense the Liberal Party electorally will look good having a war with business bass they will look like they are not in business's pocket which is the way Labor will argue the same way Liberals argue they are in the unions pocket.We have 12 months to an election and I imagine you will see some sort of industrial relations policy shift from both parties just because unemployment will start to rise, because you get continual complaints from business, Rowan is right about small business confidence being at an issue I was a small business forum yesterday where they talked about the difficulty they are facing with IR law, particularly the restaurant and catering industry, IR costs for that industry are predicted to be 50% of all costs within five years. That's a huge cost.They need to be able to screw over the wages of low paid people to make it more viable? No you need to have greater flexibility in the system so people can work the hours they want to work so businesses can employ people... They have no choice because bnt of have a much more buoyant labour market. It's that line of questioning, that smart arse line of questioning which mes we don't have a which means we have a proper debate on industrial reform. You have illustrated it better than anybody else.We get the debate we deserve, whether or not it's a high standard is another matter.We are not getting the serious debate because Tony Abbott has said statutory individual contracts are no longer Liberal Party policy.He's done that because your mates in the Labor Party have vilified good solid flexible workplace practices.Tony Abbott has done it because he is against what is holy writ in the Liberal Party.Yeah, because politics have scared the be-Jesus out of him.End of the day, it is up to Tony Abbott. If you have got business out there in the Australian today and elsewhere calling for reform for industrial relations but the leader of the Liberal Party is frankly so gutless.It's up to both parties.Hang on if Tony Abbott is so gutless he can't champion what is a business agenda, and what is actually core Liberal Party policy, then what hope is there for the conservative side of politics? The answer is none because he will slide into office, having promised almost nothing and he will achieve almost nothing. -- They will abolish the carbon tax.You often tell us about the great Labor leaders, people like Paul Keating you interviewed this week, this is a man that brought in enterprise bargaining something the current Labor Party run away from. There is a part of the Labor Party....I said at the opening they should go back to the Keating...the other thing is you will not have this debate while people are playing silly buggers in the media and saying any discussion about this...We can rely on Julia Gillard and Wayne Swan to introduce WorkChoices within the next 12 months --.they have doubled back on everything else. They really want be John Howard so they will probably do that as well.All three of you should be glad you are no more flexibility in the workplace system stops you getting fired for the incompetence.Troy are you willing to defend the Prime Minister's unwillingness to discuss this matter again and have another sort of endless press conference with people about it given there have been fresh revelations if not allegations about her?No I'm not going to defend or condemn the Prime Minister over this matter. I think the... Would you like to hear from her?I would because 'The Australian''s reporting have unveiled a number of previously unknown elements to this long-running story that is nearly 20 years old. Including the exit interview she did from Slater and Gordon where she said it was a slush fund she helped set up... Pretty extraordinary she called it that when you think about itShe said in the interview at the time, contemporary documents are really port in understanding events of 20 years ago, and she said in that interview that she couldn't guarantee that money from that fund hadn't gone into renovations in her house. Now I take the Prime Minister at her word, because this is what she said she stood by it and other people have defended her honour but I do think there is a case now with extensive media coverage of this issue for her to give a press conference and answer some of the things head-on.Julian Leeser why has your side of politics left this issue alone for many, many months, yet suddenly when they are falling away in the polls, they decide to re-engage with it for the first time I should say engage with it in parliament through questions from Julie Bishop when they weren't willing to do so when there were much more interesting and substantive revelations in the first round by Hedley Thomas why on the now? I can't answer that question.Why do you think? I think the fact is that Julia Gillard did have that press conference, and people thought, well at the end of that long press conference things would have fallen away but they didn't. And there continues to be revelations and you know I think the revelations, the Liberals are obviously looking at it and saying well look there must be something more here and asking questions. That's part of their job as the Opposition.If you talk about the 1995 interview, that was the real Julia. That was someone worth listening to. She was ducking and weaving making up excuses as she went along and this and that.This is transcribed.It is a great read. Bill the Greek. It was a natural person. Every since then we have obfuscation, we have had constant refusing to be specific in answers that are perfectly legitimate answer. When did you know about it, what did you do about it. Two simple questions. Can be answered in five minutes. She ducks and weaves every time she asks Christmas to those two questions. This is not going to go -- comes to answer those two questions.Isn't her point if someone like Troy says I take the Prime Minister at her word, and the Prime Minister at her word is saying I did nothing wrong, isn't her point if she keeps answering individual questions that don't of themselves mean necessarily wrongdoing, how did you get $5,000 in the bank account from your boyfriend. So what there is no allegation of wrongdoing there.She is the Prime Minister.This is 17 years ago, she keeps saying I did nothing wrong, that should be the end of the matter. Isn't that reason? Because otherwise people can continue to throw mud through suggestions and questions, without ever actually making an allegation?No they keep coming up with new evidence showing new things. We talked about this before.It is not even allegations --It is questions that have to be answered. You have sex with chickens of an evening, now prove to me you don't.We have done this one.Prove to me you don't.I did at the time.How did you prove you don't. We should record for posterity sake that Rohan Dean is unable to prove he doesn't have self with chickens. -- sex with chicks P eye whenWhendy know the chicken is the first question and whody tell. If she is when who did I tell if she can say where... That is the Cory Bernardi special.And what she did about knowing the boyfriend was up to no good. Those two fundamental questions have never been addressed.I Am frankly sick of people politicians in particular sitting at this desk and elsewhere saying this is a crusade run by 'The Australian' newspaper. And not other media outlets. I think it is important to note even today the left wick website Crikey! Which hasn't uphold too many journalistic standards described the Prime Minister as naive and incompetent on the issues and the 'Sydney Morning Herald' posted an on-line editorial late one evening a few months ago calling for an investigation. Calling for a union watchdog and saying the Prime Minister had questions to answer. 'The Age' now have Mark Baker working on this full-time.Ridiculous to suggest this is just 'The Australian'.And the 'Financial Review' are saying there are questions to answer. In fact, if you look at the 'The Australian''s editorials, the official line of the newspaper, they have actually called for less than what some of the other newspapers, corruption watchdog, royal commissions.For what it's worth, I think the biggest thing that she should be required to answer is why it took her so long to report these allegations about Bruce Wilson, from the time that which she broke up with him which she believed there may have been some wrongdoing he was engaged in to the moment at which she did so. Why didn't she go to the police. That to me is the most interesting question because there is eight nos there and hundreds of thousands of dollars that appears to be ripped off to AWU members during that time. Had she taken action then that would have have been the time to do so. That to me more than $5,000 cheques and so forth is the one thing I would like to see answers.It impose to the heart of it because if 5 grand suddenly pops up in your bank account it raises questions. It goes to the same fundamental question when she knew, what she knew and what she did about it. It is precisely the same crime, and obviously there is no comparison between embezzle ment and anything like that and child abuse but it is precisely the same crime the royal commission is looking into, being in a position of authority and averting your eyes.It's interesting.We will talk about the royal commission when we come back, Julian Leeser on the panel has been Endeavour gauged in setting -- engaged in set up all sorts of politically commissions working are John Howard. Le we will be baulk in a moment. -- we will be back in a moment.

Welcome back. We will continue with the panel in a moment but first let's take a luke at today's news headlines. Aive -- Israel's Defence Minister has called up to 30,000 reservists and sent tanks to the border suggesting the chances of a ground invasion of Gaza are increasing. Two Hamas rockets have hit Tel Aviv, the first assault on the city since 1991. And more than 200 rockets have been fired on southern Israel. The missile attacks killed three Israelis in the south of the country. At least 12 Palestinians have died in Gaza as Israel continues to strike at Hamas targets sometimes in densely built-up areas. Egypt has sent its Prime Minister to Gaza to meet Hamas leaders in Gaza City. Three Crown Casino bouncers have been found not guilty of charges related to the death of a patron. Anthony doning suffered a cardiac arrest as he has held down by bouncers at the casino last July. He died in hospital four days later. Matthew Lawson and Cameron Sanderson have been cleared of manslaughter. A third bouncer Benjamin Vigo has been found not guilty of assault Treasurer Wayne Swan says the government will do all it can to support sacked Ford workers. The company has axed 212 jobs due to a slump in large car sales, and a production reduction. The cuts in Broadmeadows and Geelong come after Ford receives a $30 million assistance package. Meanwhile in NSW almost 700 extra RailCorp jobs are to be lost under a plan to reform the train network over the next three years. More than 200kg of cocaine distined for the streets of Australia has been seized from a yacht which ran aground off the koeft of Tonga. When the vessel was -- coast of Tonga. When the vessel was identified the body of a man was found which authorities say the cocaine has a street value of up to $116 million the operation involved Australian Federal Police Customs police from Tonga and the Cook Islands and the US drug administration. There are reports deck could be set for a move to the after -- David Beckham could be set for a move to the A-League. The football superstar has been shipped to a number of clubs with the possibility of a 10 game guest stint beginning next month.Tomorrow's weather:

Welcome back. I'm joined by Julian Leeser, you only put the smile on when the camera goes on you. You were looking all solemn.Looking at you always makes me feel like that and I think of the viewers at home. Delightful to see them.Rohan Dean and Troy Bramson. Julian you have been engaged in a whole bunch of politically orientated royal commissions over the years.Peter none of the politically err entated they all were to deal with corruption. There was the AWB issue, there was the centenary house lease and... What was the details of that? It was the Labor Party engaged in a lease with the Commonwealth that they were getting extraordinary above market rents, for years and years.What was the finding? The third one was the building industry.So as you say not political but nonetheless royal commissions.It was a very focussed productivity enhanced royal commission.I agree ing I needed detail on what they were about. Now we have that established what about the royal commission more seriously, the royal commission that Julia Gillard has called? How do you avoid something like this? We talked about on the 'nation' last night how do you avoid this coming a crucible style witch-hunt as opposed we all hope it does is simply get to the bottom of untoward acts of child molestation and somehow provide some way forward that makes sure it doesn't keep happening the way it has.It's very hard and I think it needs a particularly good set of terms of reference, and a de if, t commissioner and so on. The -- deft commissioner. The obviously issues around child sex abuse in a range of different institutions both churches and public institutions like schools and through the department of community services in various states and homes, and even indigenous communities has been a real issue for a long time and I think there was an inevitability about this royal commission but I think the Government has to work with the states as they look like they are doing on this, I think they need to have very set terms of reference but I also think it's very important that they have a timeframe here. Royal commissions almost always run over time, and I don't think you can have somebody that's open-ended here. I think a royal commission will have to make some - obviously do some investigative work. If it is not could go for 25 years. It depends the level of detail here. What they will be looking at, they should be looking at is pattern s of conduct, is responses of institutions and making recommendations for how things can be improved. A royal commission can't prosecute someone it can make recommendations that people be prosecuted. But really it is looking for systemic improvement s across a range of different areas and institutions.And what makes a royal commission different from any other enquiry is that it's got the power to compel witnesses against their will and also to provide protection to witnesses.And I think that's why given the sensitive nature of this enquiry why you needed to have a royal commission here. Rohan?It is interesting expectation, the community's expectations of what the royal commission will deliver, that's what it comes down to and already we are seeing unfortunately it is becoming quite a sort of anti-Catholic, you know, there has been a lot of the ABC running this line very heavily, going into areas of the confessional and all these discussions. Confessional first came up with the Liberal Party bringing it up on this set, Christopher Pyne first brought it up.That's not something that the royal commission of itself can change. Obviously, we have laws in Australia, those laws, can be changed nim time we want them to be and it is up to us to change those laws but as Julian says and even jidz is saying that it is going -- Joel Fitzgibbon is saying it will be 10 years, a big hairy beast, he described it is going to go running and running. If we want to change laws that's what we need to do rather than something which is so open-ended and also what is the focus of it if you are looking at not only the victims and they are the ones who need the most sympathy and they are the ones who need the most answers but if you get into the whole territory of the person who kind of averted their eyes or should have known it but didn't report it, and should have. That's a massively complicated area to be uncovering. With any degree of fairness or probably success. I would have thought.Its the Prime Minister made the right decision. Have a royal commission. It is a good idea and gives the public some kind of way to focus on what has been systemic abuse in a number of institution not on the Catholic Church Foran a long period of time.Victims wanting to tell the story because I would have thought it was a confronting way for that to be encouraged.I think a lot of people will see this as a cathartic process where they can come forward and tell their story and feel healed in a sense by simply going through that very process. That is why someone during the week described it to me what might have been better is a truth and reconciliation style commission which they had month post appear tide South Africa which is more geared -- apartheid South Africa. Giving people the opportunity to uncover past injustices.That's a ridiculous comparison because in South Africa they provided immunity for people who had done wrong doingsIt is a style of conditions. I don't think it is madness.The issue is that's what people want. Not only abuse to be uncovered, but they want to be able to talk about their situations in a safe, open environment and that's what the commission looks like it is heading towards.The South African commission provided a situation where perpetrators were given munity from prosecution. That's the -- immunity from prosecution. That's the opposite of what we are trying to do?It is a public healing process and a way for people to tell their story but a legally based royal commission which is what this is going to be must have a very narrow focus on it. And must have a clear timetable and have a clear set of outcomes in mind. Obviously you have to go through the process but what kind of legislative response, what is the relationship with the police and so on. So there is a lot of issues to sort out before this can have any real effect.I Think also the big danger is it becoming too political. It's been politicised already, and we haven't even set it up.How? Because it is as I said it is being seen in a lot of areas as being anti-Catholic.It will become more politicised when you are talking about Catholics you have the institution of the Catholic Church.Why is that politicised.For example Tony Abbott is a Catholic. So I can foresee easily.So the shoppies union members in the Labor Party.already we have seen, it was Dennis Shanahan drew the comparison saying this is a dangerous area, politically, for it to go into. And it goes back to the people's expectations are.Other than people on the right saying the Labor Party had better not politicise this, what point have the Labor Party done that?In actual fact it is in a sense the opposite. It was Barry O'Farrell the NSW premier who said he didn't believe that the sale of confession should remain unbroken. He was uncomfortable with that. You mentioned Christopher Pyne is another.They said that they think the confession should be broken. They are the Catholics are you talking about. This hasn't been politicised by the government.Thethe danger is it will.That is what I am saying.All you are doing is dog whistling the danger will be...I don't think so. If you don't have very specific...It is important to have specific terms of remembrance. It's important it is not just an enquiry into the Catholic Church because there is a whole range of institutions that are involved.If people keep saying I hope it is not about the Catholic Church when it's not.I take the Prime Minister on her word in roles to this.Other than saying -- We need to be careful. I'm not sure I trust the word, we need to be careful.Don't put the arse back into smart arse.It's true. That's what you are doing. You take the Prime Minister for her word, I hope he she is good for her word because of concern going forwardIt is focused on the Catholic Church partly because of the recent media around stories that have influenced the NSW commission. But, I think there a whole range of issues here and a whole range of institutions and I think that's port. As to the style of commission I think there are a range of responses from differents.Some victims do want a public process and some don't and there needs to be some sort of acknowledgment of that.The Catholic Church has had a process that has been around since the mid 1990s which has provided people with some compensation and apologies and so on and one of the issues no doubt this enquiry will look at is the adequacy of those. There has been discussion on the panel about the confessional, my own view and I'm not a Kath Catholic is I don't think they thu break the seal of a confession yap. Priests that I know say if someone came to them and confessed something they would try to get them to dob themselves in and if you break the confessional... At the end of the day how would you know, it sup to the individual.A -- it is up to the individual.We will take a break. When we come back a lot more to discuss. You are watching the Contrarians.

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Welcome back. I'm joined by Julian Leeser, Rohan Dean and Troy Bramson. We are talking about a range of issues but will move on. Julian what's the difference between an urban Aboriginal and authentic Aboriginal?I can't answer that question. All I can say is that I think it is great that Tony Abbott's looking for Aboriginal candidates for the Liberal Party. And I note Warren Mundine said a couple of weeks ago.He drew the distinction. What's the difference?That's not the distinction I would make.The distinction I took from what he said was that if you lived in remote parts of the country.You were authentic.You had a authentic way of representing that culture because you were immersed in it.Because you if were an urban Aboriginal you don't have an...he never said that and that's been put in his mouth unfairly as usual but it's no different to says you are an authentic Melbournian or you are an authentic inner-city person or an authentic farmer. You know those people you represent that community. This is a massive beat-up. No-one has done more for oobl Aboriginal Australia's representation than the Liberal Party. Tony Abbott goes to Aboriginal communities every year. He does far more than... I know that and it gets reported in 'The Australian' which Troy and I work for but I am just curious what the difference is between an authentic Aboriginal.Someone lives in the city versus someone in the bish.Even Ken White himself didn't think it was a very appropriate term.Tony Abbott has chronic foot in mouth disease.That's what he has.I do not believe for a second Tony Abbott was trying to be insensitive to indigenous people or he lacks an understanding of their issues and concerns. He definitely wasn't trying to be insensitive, I agree.His former words were clumsy and at worst stupid.I ThinkI was interested in Warren Mundine's comments a few weeks ago why he left the Labor Party because he saw the advancement of Aboriginals more likely in the Liberal Party. In terms of seat representation.You terms of getting a seat in parliament.He thought he would be better with the Liberal Party than Labor Party.That sounds like having a go at a rat.You said the seat he wants in parliament he didn't get from Labor so he will try to get it from the Liberal Party.No I didn't say that. He was saying that Aborigines are more likely to get into parliament through the Liberal Party.He also said very Clarely the Labor Party only ever provided symbolic gesture they had never benefitted Aborigines on on the ground to the way he believed they should have done. He was clear.Do we agree drawing an distinction between authentic Aboriginals and urban, is at the very least clumsy perhaps offensive perhaps worse?I...yep.It is not offensive and it should not be offensive.It is clumsy though?No.It is ironic. When he goes to the Northern Territory to try to convince an Aboriginal lady to become one of his candidates at the election and he leaves from there having drawn this distinction which offends not just some people but by all accounts his Ms for Hasluck the first Aboriginal in the lower house of the Australian parliament.It doesn't mean Tony Abbott is a racist.Of course it doesn't.It was a clumsy form of words.That is the case click case of the left overcooking this. This is what they did to Howard year in year out. He would do something that might have been mildly offensive or might have been mildly disliked by sections of the community and the left would beat it up to a point where people that didn't particularly like what he did found themselves defending him because they were overcooking the broth.There should be a new offensive taking offence. We should stop people taking offence. It's got out of hand completely.Speaking of people making offensive remarks, Troy Bramson you have reported today in 'The Australian' - I'm not - my producers are laughing at me, I'm not saying you are offensive you reported comments by Paul Keating where he basically the Australian public they were a bunch of morons they got it wrong in '96 PThat's not what he said if you read the paper you work for.He worded it differently but that's the essence, they should have known better in terms of what happened in '96.The interview I did with pale Keating was based around a speech he gave to the National Press Club in 19896 in the last week of the 1996 campaign which he lost.And in that speech he outlined what he believed would happen under a Howard Government.It was a close election.And a lot of that actually happened. If you go back to the speech which is in a book have you got right there Peter, in that... Really, really wide shot guys.In that book, Paul actually predicted WorkChoices eight years before it happened and his point in terms of the argument that he presented to the Australian people, and the lack of media rigger about what John Howard is promising in 1996 he believes the Australian people made a mistake because they weren't given the right information and they got it wrong.As I note in the paper Paul Keating is in denial about losing that election but a lot of people will resonate, find his comments. They will rennate with him.It was pretty recently he lost that election, it is understandable there are still wounds he is healing.I Remember his comment from the time if you change the government you change the country.That's the speech.And it was a good point and I think, you know unlike Keating most people think Howard changed the country for the better.This is actually the key thing.So the phrase 'imph when you change the Government the country changes' is from that speech and his point is John Howard promised he would make little change to Australia, but Keating exposed that in that speech and then of course Howard made significant changes. Now it doesn't mean those changes were wrong, it just means Howard had promised little change and then delivered big.Howard did that over a succession of a number of terms. And people kept voting for him.He won four elections.He did very little of it in the first term between '96 and '97 when he did have the first term -- '98 before taking to an election things like a GST all they did was relatively minor in the great of scheme of things industrial relations changes and beyond that he really just lost ministers. There wasn't a huge number of adjustments so Keating's speech when you think about it if you spent more time analysing it it really didn't actually come to fruition because the country only really changed over subsequent electoral cycles.There is no doubt that Paul Keating remains in denial about losing that election. He also thinks that the big economic reforms of the Hawke and Keating era basically gifted to John Howard a long growth cycle for which he had done nothing to bring about, and that is undenably true.I Think Keating sounds wacky now when they makes comments in the media.His comments about Australia.Captain wacky. His comments about Australian American relations this week I thought were also off boil and the fact that Australia hadn't really recognised Asia until he was around and failed to after he left. I just think, you know, his ego is bigger than his capacity to deliver on things and I think it's a bit sad he doesn't just draw a line under the period and advocate for reforms he thinks are useful rather than constantly making a vauk um.I don't think there is many people other than a few absolutely believers who are saying I wish we hadn't listened to Keating.Try but we will have to Leigh it there. Julian Leeser, Rohan Dean, and Troy Bramson, thanks one and all for your company. And thank you for your company. Before we go one tweet that did come in from Scruffbucket said there is nothing wrong with saying that Wyatt is an urban Aboriginal he is. The PC brigade should run off. Yes, there is nothing wrong that, it is when you juxtaposition it in my position against being a authentic Aboriginal. That's where it becomes messy and even the panel agreed with that at the very least. You sure and tune into 'Australian Agenda' on Sunday more than we will be going through the latest poll results and the main interview is with the mental health and ageing minister Mark Butler. See you then. Live Captioning by Ai-Media