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Former intelligence officer analyses London s -

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(generated from captions) circumstances not just attack you ourselves but make your own people attack you for what we perceive as ourselves but make your own people attack you for what we perceive as attack you for what we perceive as a wrong elsewhere in the world. One of the ongoing costs obviously is this massive security operation now under way in London. You've driven through it yourself today. I mean , how long can police keep this up? Well, there is a limit to how long they can keep it up. The commissioner of our police last night said on television that his men were tired. But flooding the streets with police can be or can have streets with police can be or can have some effect. It can make it more difficult certainly for terrorists to deliver their bombs. There's a sting in the tail to this type of operation. It suggests I'm afraid that perhaps we don't have very much intelligence to go on and the only instrument for security we can use is the quite effective but blunt one of flooding the streets with extra policemen. You wrote after the first bombings with extra policemen. You wrote after the first bombings that there appeared to be a serious intelligence failure and there's intelligence failure and there's now been a second bombing or series of attempted bombings. What do you attempted bombings. What do you say now? It looks an even more serious intelligence failure. On 2 June we reduced our national alert state by one notch. OK, in some ways it's quite a modest reduction but what quite a modest reduction but what it showed is that quite a modest reduction but what it showed is that our analytical showed is that our analytical effort - remember you've got to understand and predict what's going on if you're going to fight against it - is our analytical effort in which is our analytical effort in which we take a lot of national pride was moving in completely the opposite direction from what was about to happen on the ground. That gives happen on the ground. That gives me and I think everybody in the UK serious grounds for thought and serious grounds for thought and it's something we need to sort out. I think we were caught out by the think we were caught out by the fact most of all that these terrorists harp appeared to have been home grown. Is it ╝white╛I the fact that British intelligence failed to comprehend that such thing was possible that home-ground suicide bombers could emerge? I think it's partly that but if you've been considering terrorism - I went to a conference which the minister

currently in charge conference which the minister currently in charge of security in the UK because the Home Secretary the UK because the Home Secretary is on holiday, but she spoke there on holiday, but she spoke there with senior policemen and intelligence types. I think they understood the possibility of home-ground possibility of home-ground terrorism but hadn't yet redirected our resources to track it. I think we hadn't yet come to that conceptual moment where you can fully understand what is likely to happen to you. It may be as history unfolds to you. It may be as history unfolds that you can only unfolds that you can only understand these things in a sense tragically once they happen to you. I think everybody has been particularly shocked by the fact that these killers are British. Well I mean, we've just heard our own PM say exactly that, the shock is resonating even in this country. But let me ask you this, now that they know the threat is genuine the threat is real of home-ground terrorists, suicide bombers, what can be done terrorists, suicide bombers, what can be done about it? What will change in the intelligence gathering? I think it's not just a matter of intelligence. We can do some procedural and basic security things. We can tighten our borders. I think one of the conceptual changes we need to make as well is to understand that extremist preaching ask earlier on in your program we heard some pretty impleasant things from an program we heard some pretty impleasant things from an Imam in Melbourne that this kind of encouraging preaching although it may not be formally against the may not be formally against the law is as much part of the weapons package if you like as the bomb that's eventually detonated on the London Tube. And I think we've got to get much rougher with people. We've got exactly the same problem in the UK as you have. I couldn't help but feel when I heard your package that the passport of this man in Melbourne had been revoked, thinking that we feel that same sense of powerlessness in the UK. Actually, what you need to do - and we can't do it either - is not revoke someone's passport but allow them to have a passport and allow them to leave your country and then revoke it whilst they're away. There's also an intelligence battle to be fought. We've got to concentrate much less on sort of

formal al-Qai'da connected formal al-Qai'da connectederstanding our own Muslim uncommons in the UK and elsewhere and the level of disaffection that seems to make certain young men want to do these things. I'll come back to the issue in the clerics in a moment. Since you've raised that question it's rather astonishing that hasn't happened already. The penetration of Muslim communities happened already. The penetration of Muslim communities after September 11 you'd think that would have been one of the priorities of the local intelligence services? I agree. I mean, I don't want to overstate it. It's very easy to overstate it. It's very easy to sit in a dark suit in a comfortable studio and second-guess people who've been in the field operating against this stuff, this kind of thing for several years. But I thing for several years. But I have to say I found the fact that we received no warning at all of these attacks received no warning at all of these attacks disappointing. And it does as you say, it begs the question what have people been doing since 9/11? I certainly think, my recommendation is that we do much more what the French do and they have both intelligence agents and cooperation with local at-risk if you like communities, whereby there is a flow of information back to analysts in the various analysts in the various intelligence branch s that allows people if not to get precise warning of an attack, at least to gauge the loyalty or otherwise of certain parts of our community. We did much the same in Northern Ireland. You could normally tell from which part of normally tell from which part of the country, which part of that country, which part of that province trouble was going to come from on both sides of the religious divide. And I think we need to do some work towards that now here. We keep hearing about the mood among many young British Muslims, the mood has been exacerbated enormously by the war in Iraq and, in fact, one war in Iraq and, in fact, one senior Muslim policeman told one of our reporters yesterday he's never seen such anger in his community. The question is, how do you reign in that anger without appearing to be heavy-handed and actually making things heavy-handed and actually making things worse? It's a difficult question. I don't pretend I've got

all the questions. -- answers. I think one way you can reinforce the moderate mainstream Muslim case if you like is to put pressure extremist preaching. Now if people are not British subjects and are indulging in this kind of extremist preaching I think they should be preaching I think they should be put on the next plane and sent out. on the next plane and sent out. But we seem unable to do this. It's very frustrating for anybody monitoring the situation, but if they are British subjects but extreming extremism we should try and use race hate law, all the and use race hate law, all the kinds of perfectly civilised laws that countries like ours already have in place. I think one of the worst things about these terrorist things about these terrorist attacks - and I think it's eventually going to hit community relations if you like - is a sense of powerlessness and I certainly have it here, and I'm sure some of your viewers in Australia will have got it Australia will have got it connected with that package from the with that package from the extremist cleric in Melbourne. Why can't we do something about these people? do something about these people? Why can't we arrest them? Why can't we try them, throw them into jail or try them, throw them into jail or if they don't belong in the United Kingdom or Australia, why can't we expel them? One of the reasons in the case of the Australian cleric the case of the Australian cleric is that he's an Australian citizen. You do run the risk of trampling on human liberties in democracies. human liberties in democracies. The question is, where do you draw the line? And how are lines going to be drawn indeed? Tony Blair is going drawn indeed? Tony Blair is going to face this problem as he looks at face this problem as he looks at new forms of legislation. What do you think he is going to end up with? I think what's happened is think he is going to end up with? I think what's happened is that - I mean, your correspondent earlier said that London is different. It certainly is different and it feels different, and all previously-held views are now being questioned again. What is obvious, what I think our PM will do and what everybody will support, and it will in some way come into legislation, is that the line will be drawn much tighter than it was before. That's not to say that all tighter than it was before. That's not to say that all our ancient freedoms and privileges will go out

of the window, but where preaching is clearly a major building block is clearly a major building block in the radicalisation of young men to turn them into suicide bombers then I think everybody will accept that the lines, the rules about what you can and can't say when you're preaching as an Imam in a mosque or when you're amp appearing preaching as an Imam in a mosque or when you're amp appearing representing a Muslim group on television, can be drawn much, much tighter. And one of the ways of doing this - we still hear in the doing this - we still hear in the UK have an established church - one of the ways you can do is to try and establish certain parts of Islam in the way the French are do. You the way the French are do. You need to licence clerics and make sure they're educated in the culture of the country they live in, not just the culture of their religon or the the country they live in, not just the culture of their religon or the culture of the country from which they originally came. And I think if you can produce a body of sensible Muslim preaching which drowns out all the nastiness then that could be one factor in making the country safer against these the country safer against these kind of terrorist attacks. Even if you were to do that, if some way deport foreign clerics, reign in others, you still have foreign clerics, reign in others, you still have to contend with the Internet which is as we know overflowing with hate speech sites and apparently still siting operating with actual bomb-making manuals, how-to manuals for terrorism, effectively. What can terrorism, effectively. What can be done to stop that? I think we've done to stop that? I think we've had a certain amount of success broadly in the United States, the UK, in the United States, the UK, Europe and Australia in shutting down some of the really and Australia in shutting down some of the really nasty pornographic sites and pursuing people that have accessed those sites or have been involved in the production of material on them and prosecuting them successfully in the courts. I think perhaps we could take some of the techniques and energy which we rightly put into that campaign and transfer them towards tracking down and extinguishing transfer them towards tracking down and extinguishing jihadist websites. I'm afraid that's where we're I'm afraid that's where we're going to have to leave you Crispin Black. It was very interesting talking to you. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you.